Mari Fong interviews guitarist Sean Long of While She Sleeps and Andrea Vassilev of DBSA, San Gabriel Valley. Sean Long share his story and solutions for recovery for anxiety, panic attacks, panic disorder and agoraphobia. While She Sleeps’s single “Nervous” off their new album Sleeps Society is based on Sean’s mental health journey and admits the song is the most important one he’s ever written.
Andrea Vassilev of DBSA San Gabriel Valley explains panic disorder and how it can easily escalate to agoraphobia if untreated. She shares her thoughts on Cognitive Behavioral Therapy and medication as treatment for panic disorder.
“Be brave, ask for help, and be persistent in finding the mental help that you need.”
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_03 (00:00):
Welcome to the Check Your Head podcast, the podcast
where notable musicians andexperts come and share their
stories and solutions for mentalhealth and wellness.
I'm your host, Mari Fong, amusic journalist and life coach
for musicians, and today I'mthrilled to interview an amazing
guitarist from the metalcoreband While She Sleeps, whose
(00:23):
latest single, Nervous, is basedon guitarist Sean Long's own
mental health journey and callsit the most important song he's
ever written.
Sean's journey includes livingwith anxiety, which also
includes panic attacks, panicdisorder, and agoraphobia.
While She Sleeps single Nervousis off their fifth album called
(00:44):
Sleep Society, which justdropped on April 16th, and we'll
be playing a clip of the song atthe end of our episode.
Next, we'll be speaking withmental health expert Andrea
Vasiliev from the Depression andBipolar Support Alliance, who'll
give us insight on panicattacks, panic disorder, and
agoraphobia, and how cognitivebehavioral therapy can play a
(01:07):
part in the road to recovery.
But first, let's hear Sean Longof While She Sleeps share his
story.
And you know, now that we're onthe topic of live shows, that is
such a wonderful feeling for thefans, but I also know it's a
wonderful feeling for the band.
During this pandemic, how haveyou dealt with not having that
(01:31):
part of your life?
SPEAKER_00 (01:33):
I think most artists are now really feeling the sting
of this.
I know I've been feeling itrather subconsciously and now
i've kind of added it alltogether and maybe this is why
i've been feeling certain thingslike a lot of what we do as a
band is we spend an hour onstage kind of exerting all this
energy that we've been buildingup whether it's personal or
whether it's the energy we wantto get out in the songs or
(01:54):
whatever if you have this momentwhere your personality goes out
the window and you get to reallyjust express yourself freely and
there's not much There's notmuch suffering and not many
problems can get in thosemoments.
And especially for a metal bandlike us, we go fucking mental on
stage.
So there's a lot of energyrelease there.
And I think I'm missing thatnow.
And that's what a lot of artistsare going to start to notice is
(02:16):
that a lot of angst building upand some kind of energy release
that we're missing out on.
SPEAKER_03 (02:22):
Well, I think especially for...
metal bands and the kind of liveshow that you put on.
I mean, everybody's jumping,everybody's like expressing and
they're just having a greattime.
And I realized that kind ofexpression of emotion, we don't
normally get to do that in oureveryday lives.
(02:42):
I mean, we just don't get to dothat.
But with music, whether it'splaying or whether it's
expressing yourself during thelive show, just letting all of
that out, it just makes you feelso good.
SPEAKER_00 (02:55):
Well, think about that from a fan's perspective as
well.
How many people would feelcomfortable just screaming or
singing a song really loud?
You don't ever do that.
And I think that's an importantpart of being a human.
I think there's so manyspiritual practices that involve
screaming and letting out.
I think there's a reason behindthat.
And I think for the averageperson, they don't get to do
(03:18):
that ever.
When do they get to jump aroundand just scream without being...
looked at as like a mentalperson in the street or
something.
I think everyone needs that.
Like everyone needs thatrelease.
SPEAKER_03 (03:29):
Absolutely.
And speaking of your new album,you have a song called Nervous
on it, which you wrote.
And you said that it's thesingle most important song I've
ever written in my life.
And it's about acute anxiety.
And I'm wondering, can youdescribe how acute anxiety shows
up in your life?
SPEAKER_00 (03:50):
I can.
Where it manifests for me interms of my expression,
especially music and the way Ispeak about these things, it
comes from a moment in my life afew years ago, actually.
So acute anxiety and really deepanxiety doesn't affect me as
much anymore.
I found a way out of that.
And the reason why I'm soempowered to talk about it.
So I experience all kinds ofanxieties all the time, like I
(04:13):
get nervous for interviews.
This is a common thing I say alot.
And just stuff like socialanxieties, these are things that
I can deal with.
Because I think everyone dealswith these things on different
levels, but it's just sometimesthey may go a little bit deeper
for a specific individual.
And for me, it went that way.
It went quite deep.
And I found a way out.
So that's how I speak about itin terms of acute, because there
(04:35):
was a moment where it wentreally bad for me.
And Now, having come through theother end, that's where my
inspiration comes to talk aboutit because I know whilst you're
in that place, it's very easy tobelieve that you can never get
out of it.
That's what I believe, hand onheart.
I didn't believe anything otherthan that.
I didn't think I'd ever make itout.
(04:56):
And I did.
So that's where the inspirationcomes from.
But I deal with anxiety daily,but it's not problematic
anymore.
It's more just It is what it iskind of thing, but I'm out of
that hole, which is where I'dlike to give my inspiration to
people stuck in a similarposition.
SPEAKER_03 (05:11):
Well, I think you used some words that really
describe what it feels like whenyou fall into an acute anxiety
or a severe depression.
It's like you fall into a hole,like you're at the bottom of a
dark well and you're trying toget help, but you're not able to
(05:33):
see the light or it's very hardto see the light.
And you're trying to find a wayout of that.
I know you've also talked aboutdepression in the past and they
often go hand in hand,depression and anxiety.
But you mentioned that a fewyears ago that it got really bad
for you.
Was there something thattriggered that or something that
(05:54):
was going on in your life thatkind of made you spiral to a
depression?
deeper, darker place.
SPEAKER_00 (06:01):
Yeah.
And I think this is very commonfor a lot of people in this
situation too.
It's usually some traumaticevent that kind of sets this
ongoing struggle off.
It's usually some kind ofpinnacle event, not for
everyone, but I know it was forme.
I'll try not to go too deep intoit.
It's quite a big story.
The short version of it is, nowI don't put this all down to
drinking and partying and stufflike that.
(06:23):
But as I was growing up and wewere getting more successful in
the band, it was very common andvery normal for If you live in
England, basically, you party.
It's quite normal for people todrink and party in England.
And if you're in a band, youparty a little bit more.
And in retrospect, I do feellike it might have got a little
bit out of hand, but I was neverlike an alcoholic or a drug
addict or anything like that.
That's not my story, but I dothink it played a part.
(06:44):
So I think it was 2015 WarpedTour, basically partying every
night, nonstop.
I used to smoke as well.
My diet was terrible.
But before this, I had a problemwith shortness of breath.
Every now and then, I hadasthma, but really mild asthma.
And I had this problem withshortness of breath that I
completely ignored my entirelife.
I never saw it as a problem.
And then I played this show.
(07:06):
It was in Vegas.
It was the hottest show to datein history.
I walked all that day.
So I basically had this panicattack and I'd never had a panic
attack in my life.
And I couldn't breathe withoutgoing too deep into that moment
because that was the traumaticmoment for me.
It was one of the worst momentsof my life.
Really, really terrifying,especially when I'd never really
touched suffering like that.
(07:26):
And it just came at me like...
a million knives all at once.
But the interesting thing, itwas from that moment, my
nightmare started actually.
So that moment was terrible, butthen it was two to three years
after that, which reallydestroyed my life from that
moment.
From then, my mind completelyconsumed me and almost all the
common symptoms of anxiety anddepression and agoraphobia and
(07:50):
all these things just followedme after that.
I've obviously experienced painand suffering and anxiety before
that, but never to this extentwhatsoever.
Nothing that I would see as likea landmark in my life.
So it was this event.
And then afterwards, life got alittle bit difficult.
SPEAKER_03 (08:06):
The thing with anxiety too, is that, you know,
there's worrying and there'sconcern, but anxiety is like off
the charts.
And it can also includeirrational fears, fears that you
know that don't even make sense,but in your mind, it feels real.
So what were some of theanxieties or the thoughts in
(08:28):
your head that were consumingyour thoughts?
SPEAKER_00 (08:32):
Because I'd never had a panic attack.
I'd never had this negative rushof pain just completely consume
me so quick because I've neverbeen faced with such a scenario.
I My mind just said, I can'tbreathe.
So then obviously what comesafter that is pure panic.
What would you mean I can'tbreathe?
Isn't that not the end then?
So afterwards, I developed thisfear of having a panic attack or
(08:53):
fainting or this thing wouldcome, which was the anxiety, of
course, would come.
I'd have this big attack and I'ddie.
It's a lot more complicated thanthat.
But the short version is that Iwas scared that this would
happen again, but I would diethis time.
So it was always this peak.
I was always worried aboutreaching its peak.
But the interesting thing iswhat I've realized years later
(09:16):
is that there was never no peakto be reached.
This was the anxiety.
It was the worrying about thepeak.
So I was always scared of it.
It's going to get to this endgame, big faint.
They're going to have to callthe ambulance so I can't breathe
or something like that wascreating this worry inside me.
But years later, I found outthat was the anxiety.
That was the peak.
And that was the thing I had todeal with.
(09:37):
I mean, I could have gotdiagnosed with a lot of things.
I think agoraphobia would havebeen one of them.
I was very afraid to go too faraway from my house because I
thought the further I got away,the more the panic would come
thinking that this thing wouldhappen and no one would be
around to save me.
So that kind of kept mebedridden and home ridden for
quite some time.
At the very beginning of it, Iwas actually so frightened to go
(09:59):
outside.
I'd even drink a little bit togo outside.
But this time, for the firsttime in my life, I drink because
I knew it was going to take thepain away.
Whereas before, I was drinkingjust because I thought it was
fun.
I mean, I never knew I wascovering up a subconscious
problem.
But the shit your mind makes upand how...
It doesn't matter how irrationalit is.
(10:20):
It's from the individualperspective.
And those are the things thatbothered me, this whole thing
about not being able to catch mybreath, about fainting, about
this thing coming.
So then your mind just runs awaywith that and creates the most
nightmarish things for you,specifically for you.
So everyone's is completelydifferent.
So now I could give someone myproblems and it wouldn't affect
them because they haven't had myexperiences.
So I think it's very individual,but yeah, that's the short
(10:44):
version of it.
SPEAKER_03 (10:45):
Yeah, I totally get that.
I mean, I remember when I wasgoing through bad anxiety, for
some reason, I was so afraidthat I could never find a
parking spot.
And for some reason, that wasjust a disaster.
And so these fears that don'teven make sense to us, but feel
real, the agoraphobia comes fromthe safety of being at home,
(11:09):
thinking that If you stay athome, all of these thoughts, all
of these fears, you have abetter chance of them not
happening.
But then you're stuck at home.
How did that affect your workand your career as a musician?
SPEAKER_00 (11:26):
Yeah, I was out of the game for quite some time
when this happened.
It was a very serious thing inmy life at the time.
It was very...
I couldn't work.
It's very hard for me to talkabout and articulate how bad it
was for me personally, but Iknow people would relate.
Like I mentioned, agoraphobia,but there was no remedy for me
staying at home and making mefeel a little bit safer.
It was just whenever I wanted totry and maybe just go to the
(11:50):
woods and get some fresh air, Icouldn't even do that.
So I'm still at home.
It was a really strange thingbecause every moment of the day
was me facing this new problem.
So it was almost like I had thislife before and then I woke up
and then it was all anxiety.
So I'd open my eyes and it wasinstant, straight thinking about
my breathing.
Am I breathing right?
(12:11):
Maybe I'm going to have thispanic attack.
And it was relentless.
So the agoraphobia was just thecherry on top.
In terms of the career aspect,that was just gone.
And that was on hold for as longas it took for me to kind of
figure out what the fuck wasgoing on and like I went to the
doctors for help and theyoffered me some tablets which I
denied I was in a really badplace and I really wanted
(12:33):
something to take Like when thisis this new fear that comes out
of nowhere, you kind of, youwant that secret pill because
it's so complicated.
You just want, give me that pilland let me get rid of it.
But I knew deep down, that's notreally what I wanted, but I went
down to the doctors to get itanyway, because I was just like,
look, you need to give me some,I'm freaking, I thought I was
losing my mind kind of thing.
So they gave me the tablets andthen I went home and read the
(12:54):
side effects and that just mademy anxiety trip out even more.
And it was that moment where Irealized I can't take the
tablets because I just don'tagree with, that being the
answer for me.
So it was that moment where Iturned another way.
SPEAKER_03 (13:07):
There must have been family or your bandmates or
friends that knew about this.
How did they react to what youwere going through?
SPEAKER_00 (13:16):
Everyone was supportive, but I think everyone
was very worried because like Isay, It was one day to the next.
So I know my friends, there wasa lot of conversations with even
our management because we wereall very close at the time.
We didn't know what to dobecause even my closest friends
didn't have a clue and didn'thave an answer.
(13:37):
And that's the terrifying thingabout it really is that even you
don't have the answer.
And so it's very worrying foreveryone else.
And one of the scariest thingsabout it is that for me, I was
so endowed in it that no oneexternal would really be able to
help me.
I had to figure this out myselfbecause all the love and support
around me wasn't really givingme any help.
(13:58):
It was so confusing for me.
And I remember to illustrate howstrange it was for my friends is
the day it happened, I had thepanic attack.
I kind of came down from thisinsane fear.
And I remember talking to mytour manager before I went back
to the bus.
I told my tour managerspecifically, please tell the
lads not to speak to me or askme what happened because I was
(14:19):
so worried their question wouldfire off this new mind thing
I've got, which would, thethoughts would roll and snowball
into this new panic attack andit'd happen again.
So my fear was that high.
I said, please, I can't haveanyone speak to me about it.
And it was really weird becausethe way I was walking, I
remember after the panic attack,I was walking like I was
physically sick.
I almost couldn't walk rightbecause it hit me so hard.
(14:42):
It was so weird.
And then obviously my friendssee me walk on the bus after not
knowing what happened.
And then the tall man is saying,don't speak to him.
I think it was a very confusingtime for everyone.
So I definitely have sympathyfor people's loved ones and
friends when it comes soradically out of the blue.
It's a scary time for everyone.
SPEAKER_03 (15:02):
Yeah, it's scary.
And that's it.
It's like people on the outsidedon't know what's going on, but
yourself...
SPEAKER_02 (15:09):
You
SPEAKER_03 (15:09):
don't know what's going on either.
You're confused.
The thoughts in your head aren'tmaking sense to you, but you're
still feeling them.
So you were in a place where youfelt trapped.
I mean, if you're agoraphobicand you feel like, oh gosh, how
am I going to get out of this ifI don't want to get out of the
house?
I mean, what finally made yousee the light to...
(15:31):
And I'm sure you tried a fewdifferent things, right?
To help yourself.
SPEAKER_00 (15:36):
When it was really bad...
I was still having alcohol everynow and then, but I was very
aware that this was the wrongway to go.
I was very sure that I shouldn'tbe doing this.
I need to figure something outsoon.
So then that's when I went tothe doctors and trying to get
some synthetic help from theWestern angle.
And I knew it wasn't at heartwhat I wanted to do.
So it was that moment when I waslike, I've got to stop smoking,
stop drinking.
(15:57):
And that's when I turned tonatural healing.
And this is when I got reallydrawn to spirituality and
Eastern teaching and meditationand all that world.
But it was not like I justturned over to it and I'm like,
oh, I found the answer.
It was a real grind to tryand...
Because I was faced with thereal question.
It was like, I can't take thesetablets.
(16:19):
I'm struggling right now.
I don't know what to do, but I'malso not in a position to end my
life or anything like that.
So I got given those paths andI'm like, I'm not going to let
this thing beat me, even thoughsuicidal thoughts did present
themselves to me at times, but Iwas in a place to kind of
observe them.
not let them consume me.
So when it's this deep, youreally don't want to spend your
time working on it becausethere's so much pain involved.
So that's what I meant by goinghead on.
(16:41):
I'm like, I have to look.
There's no other way out for me.
And it was the spirituality.
I don't know if that's the bestword, but it was that angle, the
alternative healing angle.
I knew it was the way I had togo.
And then it was through muchresearch and I follow a lot of
teachers that really gave me thepower to look in myself, which
ultimately for me is healing.
(17:02):
the answer to these problemsfundamentally.
It's not the cure that everyonewants to hear, that everyone
wants to take something or drinksome tea, but the remedy that no
one really wants is that you'vegot to look within with some
honest eyes and it's very hardto do and I'm working on it
still myself, but it'sevaporated the bulk of this
disgusting suffering that justcame out of nowhere.
SPEAKER_03 (17:25):
Well, I know you've talked about Eastern medicine
and Eckhart Tolle and Alan Wattsthat you read.
And I really appreciate thatbecause the podcast was about
finding the solutions that workfor you because you have to have
a lot of persistence.
You've got to try a lot ofthings and a lot of things may
not work for you.
And sometimes it takes time,right?
(17:46):
Whether it's medication orwhether it's a therapy or
whether it's a mindset.
SPEAKER_00 (17:52):
Yeah.
And I'd say as well, like you'resaying, I don't think there's
anything wrong with any methodthat people choose.
Everyone's so individual.
It varies from person to personso vastly.
My answer is not the rightanswer.
And the things that I detest inmy life also aren't the wrong
answers.
I think that's important topromote as well.
Like it's different things workfor different people for sure.
SPEAKER_03 (18:12):
Yeah.
Have you ever had issues withdepression?
Cause I said that it does oftencome with anxiety.
SPEAKER_00 (18:19):
Well, I don't promote to know too much about
depression only for the factthat I know that predominantly
my problems came from this fear.
I was depressed because of myanxiety.
I was very aware of how much itwas destroying my life, even to
the point of I can't even go tosleep.
I have an old lyric in a songwhich was, don't want to be
awake, don't want to sleep,which was pretty negative lyric
(18:41):
because I couldn't sleep and itwas a traumatic time trying to
sleep.
But in the day, it was just painall day.
Do you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_03 (18:49):
So with the anxiety, now living with it, what are
some of the triggers that youhave to watch out for?
SPEAKER_00 (18:57):
So the triggers when I was kind of on the mend,
basically your mind's designedthese little ways of fucking you
over.
So it's a good idea not to putyourselves in those situations,
not to give your mind aheadstart.
So one of them for me was don'tdrink because this entire thing
happened for me during ahangover.
So if you drink and you'retrying to drink away your
(19:18):
problems, you're basicallygiving your negative energy or
your mind a head start the nextday.
So if you have a tendency tohave these negative thoughts and
you're in a hungover state,you've given your problem an
incredible head start.
So stop doing that.
It's a good bit of advice and itdoes hurt a lot more to stop
that, but it'll be worth it inthe long run.
(19:39):
And things like, I was veryafraid to lose my breath.
i mean and being in tight spacesand being constricted so i just
avoid things like that but theseare temporary so whilst you're
on the mend it's just aboutawareness is key i think in all
of this so when you start torealize the way your mind keeps
trying to play tricks on youbecause it when it realizes it's
kind of winning you over incertain circumstances it will do
(20:02):
it again and again and some overtime your awareness gains a
little bit of control thissituation makes me feel that way
I think those are the realtriumphant moments for people on
the mend is when it's bravery,man.
It doesn't seem like bravery toanyone else, but to put yourself
in those situations, I had tobasically relive my life again,
which was really annoyingbecause I had no problem with
flying.
(20:23):
I was okay.
I was an okay flyer.
It's like, no problem.
It's my life.
I travel around the world andplay gigs.
It's just what I do.
After this event, it's like Ihad to do it all again, but with
anxiety.
It was really awful to go backthrough my life and do normal
things, but now with this fearof, fucking die in any second or
something like that.
So sometimes you have to throwyourself in there to prove that
(20:45):
your fears will not come tofruition.
Sometimes throw yourself inthere.
And for me, over time, I'm like,it never happens.
This thing never fuckinghappens.
And my mind is still getting meto invest my time into believing
that this thing is going tohappen.
So throw yourself in the deepend and really be like, is it
really going to take me downlike I keep dreaming it up to.
SPEAKER_03 (21:09):
Well, I think you sort of described the battles
that can happen in your head.
And that's an ongoing battle.
And you're constantly alsolearning about yourself and what
works.
And I read somewhere that yousaid to look inside to find what
the core of the problem is.
When you looked inside, what didyou discover?
SPEAKER_00 (21:30):
So The predominant factor of a lot of this pain was
a very physical emotion in mychest.
So when I develop this anxietyof shortness of breath, it's a
very physical sensation that Ican't breathe.
But clearly I have enoughoxygen.
I'm literally sat at home doingnothing.
I can't be running out of air,but it really feels like I need
(21:53):
more air.
That's what it generates for me.
And putting your attention onthat whilst you've got this
monkey mind kind of trying to...
The mind likes to suffer.
I learned this from EckhartTolle, like it really enjoys to
suffer and it's true.
Once it's in pain, it will doits best to keep you in pain.
So whilst you've got this mindthat's trying to bring you down,
(22:14):
whilst I was putting myattention on basically the
scariest part of my life, whichwas the shortness of breath
center, when you put yourattention there, it doesn't
stop, but it stops it growingany further.
So that's why awareness is key.
oh, there's the thought thatusually brings me down to that
(22:36):
place.
I recognize this pattern now.
And then you're almost given, ina weird way to put it, you're
given a choice sometimes todecide whether or not, do I want
to go down that rabbit hole?
Because you can have positiverabbit holes as well.
I think that's where creationcomes from.
You have an idea and then itsnowballs.
And then the next thing youknow, you've made an album.
So it's your choice to go downthat rabbit hole sometimes.
Just like when you're in bed andyou can't sleep and you're just
(22:58):
thinking up some crazy fuckingidea or something.
But then the negative rabbitholes are the ones that bring
you down.
There's no time to put yourattention in and try and look
inwards.
And deep down, I know that wasthe answer to look at it, but I
always was confused as what doesthat even mean to look at it?
How do I look at it?
Where is it?
It feels like it's everywhere.
As soon as you put yourattention on anything
internally, you give your mind alittle break.
(23:19):
And it's usually the mind that'smaking up a lot of these
stories, which then evoke aterrible reaction emotionally.
And that's the sensation that wedon't like.
So that awareness, it slowlystarts to bring you to some
peace.
And that is easier said thandone for sure.
It's definitely not an easything to do.
SPEAKER_03 (23:36):
So when this feeling starts coming up, what kind of
strategies and coping skillshave you learned that worked for
you?
Because you did talk aboutself-awareness.
So now you've come to the pointwhere you are aware of the
feeling of it and the thoughtsof it.
SPEAKER_00 (23:55):
Well, let me just say, the reason I enjoy talking
about these things is because Idon't think it's a mental health
problem we're all dealing with.
I think it's a spiritualproblem.
And there's a reason why we'reall in so much pain on so many
different levels.
So it could be insecurities.
It could be jealousy.
It could be anger.
These are emotions I feel.
These are emotions everyonefeels at some point in their
life, along with happiness andthese negatively charged
(24:18):
emotions, which are not to bethrown away because they're
telling you something aboutyourself.
And they're there to be lookedat.
For me, it's when you're in agreat mood and And you're filled
with joy.
There's no need to look inwardand find out more about yourself
because you're in a great state.
So there's a lot of benefit infeeling these negative emotions
because it's a wake-up call tolook a little bit deeper.
(24:40):
It doesn't have to be justdepression here and just anxiety
here.
Feeling sad is a form ofdepression, but sometimes it
goes too deep for some peopleand that's when it becomes a
problem.
So I think there's immensebenefits from experiencing these
things.
It's a good thing because it'smaking you look deeper into the
(25:00):
nature of being alive andexistence in general.
I think for me anyway, it goes alot deeper than just an anxiety
attack.
I think it's saying a lot moreabout who we are as people and
any emotion or emotionalresponse to anything external or
internal is a wake up call tolook inside.
Why is all this insecuritycoming up me?
Why is this feeling consumingme?
(25:22):
That's what I've learned a lotthrough looking inward.
I still feel a lot of theseemotions, but I'm very aware of
them the second they presentthemselves.
So I almost get given thischoice whether to go along with
emotions and be a very jealousperson or be a very angry
person, or I have a choice tosubside and kind of be aware of
it while it consumes me, butdon't go any further with my
mind.
(25:42):
But again, I'm on a journey too.
Sometimes I fuck up and my angerwill get the best of me and it's
too quick because the angercomes too quick and your
awareness has no chance to grabit.
And before you know it, you'realready in the angry state.
You're thinking angry thoughts.
When you're happy, you thinkhappy thoughts.
When you're angry, you thinkangry thoughts.
You're consumed.
It's too late.
The awareness has gone.
SPEAKER_03 (26:03):
Yeah.
That's the challenge, right?
Emotions can be very reactiveand some people have emotions
that go one to 10 and somepeople have emotions that go one
to a thousand.
And in those moments where theyget really big, you may not be
as much in control of themunless you are aware of what's
happening and what you'rethinking.
(26:23):
And if you think about the causeof those emotions, I call it
giving respect to your emotions.
Like there are a lot of peoplethat try to stuff those away or
put them away.
And I think what happens whenyou do that, it just slowly
starts to grow bigger and biggerand come out in very unhealthy
(26:44):
ways.
But once we really look at itand talk with it and find out
why, I think it's giving respectto your emotions.
And I feel that all emotions aresort of like the colors of the
rainbow.
It makes us who we are and itcreates our personality.
SPEAKER_00 (27:03):
I agree.
I think emotions are emotions.
It's this whole idea of, oh, Ihave these good emotions and I
have these bad emotions.
I think this is the entireconcept of Zen Buddhism.
You have the good on the oneside, the bad on the other side,
and there's a place in themiddle, which I think they call
Ananda.
I'm reading this audio bookrecently called Radical
Forgiveness, and there'ssomething in it I really love.
(27:24):
He's talking about basicallyanything that you detest in
someone else or something thatyou really dislike in someone
else, it really creates anemotional reaction in yourself.
There's something in you that isvery similar to what you're
detesting so much.
So when you get these reactions,these people that are causing
them are actually your guardianangels to show you it's telling
(27:46):
you something about yourself.
And I think it's very true.
So if you get really angry or ifyou get really jealous with this
one person, it's a mirror.
They're showing you somethingabout yourself and therefore
it's a wake-up call to look in.
So I like to promote that idea.
Anything that you perceive asnegative...
That is the wake up call to havea look inside.
That's what it's there for.
SPEAKER_03 (28:07):
Right.
Good advice.
You know, you talked aboutforgiveness.
And I think sometimes whenpeople go through bouts of
depression or anxiety, they canact in a way that maybe
afterwards they feel like, oh,gosh, maybe I need to apologize.
Have you ever been in thosesituations where you really feel
(28:27):
like I need to explain whathappened there?
SPEAKER_00 (28:32):
No, for me, it was like the life or death situation
for me.
That's what it felt like.
So I became quite selfish.
I need to fix this.
This is really destroying me.
I need to fix it.
So there was never any need forme to apologize.
And I knew everyone around meunderstood.
And I think everyone has a rightto be selfish, man.
I don't think apology isnecessary sometimes.
(28:53):
So I've never felt the need toapologize.
Maybe if it's an anger thing,for sure, I'll have to apologize
for that.
SPEAKER_03 (28:59):
Well, that's good that a lot of people in your
circle understand what you'regoing through.
And it's been a process.
You talked about being in areally bad place.
And when people are in that badplace, what were some of the
things that you started to dothat started to work that helped
you get out of that hole?
SPEAKER_00 (29:19):
One of the things I really got interested in was
Chinese medicine.
um and herbal remedies and stuffi really fell into that world
i've got a book to recommend aswell here as we'll recommend it
now now we're on the subjectsure this is the ancient wisdom
of chinese tonic herbs by rontiergarden and it's basically
everything you need to knowabout tonic herbs and now i
(29:41):
never think that they cured mebut i'll tell you what they did
do which i think is reallyimportant on this journey They
gave me like optimism and theywere like, I fucking found
something that I really believethat this might help me.
And a specific herb calledreishi mushroom, I really
connected with it.
And I really thought this wasgonna help me.
And I started taking these herbsalong with the meditation and
(30:03):
stuff.
And the good thing about tonicherbs and herbal remedies, this
is my theory on it anyway.
So yeah, what herbal remediesare really good for is not
curing the problem, But you cantake things to help with the
feelings of anxiety, which issomething that herbal remedies
help with, in the same way thatsynthetic medicine helps with
(30:23):
too.
But in my opinion, I don't thinkit will get rid of the problem,
but they're very good allies andtools to have when you're
feeling these sensations.
When I started to leave thehouse, I'd never leave the house
without some valerian root andsome reishi mushroom, just
because I feel like I've got afriend with me, like a herb that
can help me.
Natural sedatives was a good wayif it got too sharp, like
(30:46):
valerian root or chamomile orpassion flower or astralagus,
lots of things like that.
So I think they're really goodhelpers.
And the reason I got drawn toreishi mushrooms so much is just
the concept that mushroomsbasically grow on dying matter.
And what they do is they breakthat down for new life to grow.
So they feed on the negative,they feed on the shadow, they
(31:09):
feed on the dark side of life tobring new life in.
And I read a few things aboutreishi mushroom.
They call it the mushroom ofimmortality for multiple
reasons, one of them being aspiritual reason.
And it just made sense to me.
And again, whether or not thisis true, it helped me because I
had optimism and it empowered meto help myself.
So just the idea that mushroomscan start to work on your
(31:31):
subconscious level, the darkside that you don't like, maybe
the mushrooms can break thatdown to make it more malleable
and manageable throughout theday.
And that's what it felt like itdid for me.
It wasn't consuming me as much.
It was there, but I could managethrough my day.
So I think finding somethingthat you feel strongly, I think
(31:51):
this is a good thing for me.
I'm going to give this a go.
That's what I like about this.
And I want people to get into isfinding something to help
yourself that you feel reallypassionate about.
Like, I've got a good feelingabout this thing.
I'm going to try that.
Fuck, that didn't work.
I'm going to try something else.
I'm going to go again.
So I think that's reallyimportant.
SPEAKER_03 (32:09):
Yeah, I love natural remedies and I drink all kinds
of teas and things like that.
And the thing with herbalmedicine is that it's been tried
and true for a long time.
So we know that there's somesafety in the body.
However, you have to also watchout.
There are some things, ofcourse, that are also natural
(32:29):
that can harm you.
But have you ever tried...
I mean, conventionally, there'stherapy and there's medication.
Have you ever tried...
conventional types of thingsthat have worked?
SPEAKER_00 (32:43):
No, I'm not against it.
It's just for me personally,it's not what I wanted to do.
But I don't think there'sanything wrong with that.
I just couldn't get on boardwith these tablets that can only
help with the symptoms ofanxiety, which is the feelings
and stuff.
They cannot, in my opinion...
solve the issue of thefundamental problem like why am
i overthinking these things buti do know for a fact that they
(33:04):
really do help a lot of peopleso i'm not against them
whatsoever this is just apersonal thing for me and in
terms of therapy i got offeredcb cbt
SPEAKER_03 (33:14):
right cognitive behavioral therapy which is like
talk therapy
SPEAKER_00 (33:18):
yeah yeah so i got offered that very early in the
early stages of this thing and iwas tripping balls over and i
was like give me the fuckingtablets basically but i think
that kind of therapy anythingthat kind of directs your
attention inwards and you'reworking with yourself and on
yourself in that way i thinkit's more than beneficial and so
the spectrum is so wide becauseit's so different from person to
(33:42):
person because i follow so manyspiritual teachers I get a lot
of inspiration from those kindof people, but they all say
something that the other onedidn't, even though they're all
talking about the same thing.
I can hope to be that forsomeone because I think I'm a
relatively common person.
I'm nothing special at all.
I'm just a dude from Sheffield.
I hope to say something thatjust hits that nail for someone.
(34:03):
Do you know what I mean?
Because sometimes words passpeople all the time.
I can read something and it justdoesn't resonate with me for
some reason, but just a fewwords and I'm like, oh, fuck, I
really get that.
That makes sense to me.
So I hope that's what I want todo for people, really.
Even if it's just a few words ofencouragement, do you know what
I mean?
SPEAKER_03 (34:19):
Well, hope and encouragement and support, those
are all really important wordsfor mood disorders, especially
when you're going through them.
Speaking out is such a wonderfulthing.
So I really thank you forsharing all that.
But it really helps your fans,people that listen to you and
admire your music.
What are some of the things thatyou hear on the road from fans
(34:42):
that make you feel like you'vemade a positive difference?
SPEAKER_00 (34:46):
Yeah, it's a weird life we're living in.
And people tell me that I'vesaved their life and stuff.
And I really don't want to saythat with any kind of
egotistical undertones oranything like that because it's
not like that.
But when you hear that shit, I'mlike, wow, really?
And not just me because of theanxiety things I talk about.
They'll say just the band hassaved their life.
(35:08):
That's something.
We're all alive.
We get born here and we die hereand there's this thing in the
middle.
So just to do something likethat for someone, just to
relieve a bit of pain just forthat moment is just mad special.
Especially when that's notalways the main intention.
Our main intention isn't just tosave lives.
Sometimes we're just having fun.
We want to make some fuckingriffs.
You know what I mean?
(35:28):
But then there's other timeswe're trying to put some deep
stuff in the music and we wantit to help, like the Nervous
song we're talking about.
But when people say that shit,it's like it makes it all worth
it.
You know what I mean?
It's like, like I say, it's justa weird life.
And to soothe someone's painjust like that, I think, what
more can you ask for?
I think we're all in thisstrange world together.
(35:49):
And that's why it interests meto talk about this shit.
SPEAKER_03 (35:53):
Great, great.
You know, is there anything elsethat you would like to say about
your band while she sleeps orabout mental health?
SPEAKER_00 (36:03):
The thing I'd just say is like, never be ashamed of
your emotions.
We're all in this thingtogether.
It's very confusing.
It's a very strange life.
When people walk around as ifthey know what's what and they
know how life is and what it'sall about, I think those people
are a little bit delusional.
It's very confusing for all ofus and we're all in it together.
(36:26):
Everyone's just doing theirbest.
And that's why I get drawn tothe spiritual world.
And the suffering pushed methere.
I don't know what to say to myfans other than just if you are
struggling with these things,just know I think there's
something a lot deeper that'scalling you.
I don't think it's just aboutyou're in pain and why is the
world doing this to me.
I think it's a much deepermessage for you that you need to
(36:48):
look a little bit deeper to findout.
And I think those things are...
They're screaming at you to takea look at yourself.
So it's not all doom and gloom,even though I know for a fact,
personally, it feels like that.
This is a strange thing to say,but I will say this.
Try and get excited about yourproblems.
Try and get empowered and tryand get optimistic about your
(37:09):
bad experiences.
negative depressions andanxieties.
Because if you can get excitedabout taking care of yourself,
that optimism and thatempowerment is mad powerful.
That's what I think got me outof my hole the most.
Just the attitude of like, Icannot let this beat me.
And I think that goes a longway.
Like have a look at it in thatsense.
If the depression and theanxieties are always coming and
(37:29):
going all the time, What harm isit to try something different
that one time and then trysomething different another
time?
There's no harm because you'regoing to experience it anyway.
It's going to keep coming.
So just keep searching and havesome faith, man.
But I think the answers arethere for everyone.
I truly do.
And there's a short period oftime where we're alive.
And I think it's our job to findout a little bit more about why
(37:51):
we're in so much pain.
SPEAKER_03 (37:53):
Well, I also find, I'm going to speak for myself
here, that when we get to theother side and we're play
detective, which is what we haveto do when something like this
happens, because it's hard forsomebody else, really, even a
doctor or a good friend to knowexactly what you're going
through.
You have to get the strength,even if it's the little bit of
(38:15):
strength left to play detectiveand keep trying and knowing that
there is going to be an answerfor you.
And after you find that answer,you get to a different level of
It's funny because it soundslike a video game.
But you get to a level where youhave even greater joy because
(38:37):
you have an appreciation forlife and you have an
appreciation for what you wentthrough to get to where you are
today.
And you have a greater sense ofconfidence and maybe even
appreciation for yourselfbecause you constantly learn
something new about yourself asyou go through this.
I
SPEAKER_00 (38:55):
could not agree more because...
I felt peace before this event.
Of course, I felt peace.
I felt happiness, but it tastesso much better after these
things I've gone through becausewhen you're in this pain, you no
longer want money.
You no longer want sex, drugs.
All you want is not to suffer.
(39:16):
You know what I mean?
You don't want any materialthings like a new guitar or
clothes, whatever it may be.
You don't want anything.
All you want is to not be inpain anymore.
So once going through that, postthese depressions and anxieties,
when you do feel the peace, thatpeace tastes so much better
because you know that's all youever wanted.
And it actually grounds you alittle bit more.
(39:37):
You start to realize that allthe things that you were chasing
previously externally don'treally solve those problems and
scratch those itches.
It's worth it in that sensebecause the Buddha said this.
He doesn't say whatenlightenment is.
He said what it's not.
And it's the end of suffering.
It's an interesting quote.
That's all we need is not tosuffer.
but the mind's always on afucking rampage to cause some
(40:01):
shit.
You know what I mean?
I agree with you.
It tastes a lot better havingonce experienced that shit.
SPEAKER_03 (40:08):
Yeah, and it seems like all the little things that
might have bothered you in youryounger years just don't bother
you at all because you've gonethrough the big one, right?
You've gone beyond the mountainand, you know, life does get
sweeter sometimes.
Life gets sweeter.
I say that because I want toremind people that there is
(40:30):
beyond the mountain and there'sa beautiful life there.
Yeah.
Next up, we talk with AndreaVasiliev, a speaker, educator,
and support group leader for theDepression and Bipolar Support
Alliance, San Gabriel ValleyChapter in Los Angeles.
(40:50):
Andrea will share her thoughtson therapy, medication, and more
for panic disorder andagoraphobia.
So Andrea, there was a study in2019 that was done with 1500
musicians and they called it the73% study.
And what they did was theyquestioned musicians and asked
them about different mooddisorders.
(41:12):
And they found that about athird of them suffered from
panic attacks, which is a reallyhigh percentage.
So I'm really glad that we'retalking about panic attacks and
also panic disorder.
Can you tell me the differencebetween the two?
SPEAKER_01 (41:26):
So that's really interesting.
You would think that musiciansof all people would have such
great stage presence and lovebeing in the spotlight.
It's interesting for me to learnthat they, in fact, are more
likely to have panic attacks.
So most people in their lifetimewill experience a panic attack
or a panic-like attack.
(41:47):
If it's the real deal, it is anoverwhelming experience in which
you feel...
Your body goes into fight orflight mode.
Your whole body, you feel likeyou're going to die.
Your heart starts racing.
You get dizzy.
You get nauseous.
You're shaking.
You get tingling in your armsand in your legs and your blood
(42:08):
sugar spikes and it's likeeverything.
And you really feel like you'regoing to die in that moment.
But there's no actual threat.
That's the attack.
And panic disorder, it becomes adisorder when a month or so
later, if you're still worriedabout that it's going to happen
again and so worried that it'simpacting your life and your
functioning, that's a panicdisorder.
(42:31):
So people are most likely tohave some kind of genetic
predisposition where this startsand then something may trigger
it, something hormonal or whenthey're older, maybe something,
a trigger of something that's inthe past.
SPEAKER_03 (42:46):
So with Sean, his trigger seemed to be his
drinking, drinking alcohol.
And in fact, his first attackshappened after a long night of
drinking.
So I wanted to talk a littleabout anxiety and alcohol
because they sort of aresometimes interconnected.
People drink for a lot ofdifferent reasons, but anxiety
(43:07):
is really a common reason.
And at first, drinking alcoholcan help relieve anxiety.
You know, we feel looser andrelaxed and more confident.
But what happens is as wecontinue to drink, the alcohol
can actually exacerbate anxietyand make it worse.
(43:29):
And what they're finding is thatit can actually induce panic
attacks in the same way thathappened with Sean.
What happens is the alcoholactually changes the level of
serotonin and otherneurotransmitters in the brain
so that it can worsen anxiety.
And the anxiety can last forseveral hours, even up to a day
(43:50):
after drinking.
Because with Sean...
His first anxiety attackhappened during a hangover, and
they actually have somethingcalled hangxiety, which is that
feeling of being on edge after anight of drinking.
You might feel a little paranoidor scared and you can't explain
why.
They call that hangxiety, and itcan make panic attacks more
(44:15):
likely.
In fact, it says about 25% ofpeople with panic disorder
actually have a history ofalcohol dependence.
So this whole cycle of drinkingbecause you're anxious and then
the drinking causes you tobecome more anxious, it becomes
this spiral that just tends toget worse, which looks like
(44:38):
happened with Sean.
So Sean, he was offeredcognitive behavioral therapy,
which I heard is really good tohelp relieve panic attacks.
Can you describe what is acommon CBT or cognitive
behavioral therapy method that'sused for panic attacks?
SPEAKER_01 (44:57):
That is possibly, I don't want to say the best
because I don't want to start ariot.
That is a really great treatmentfor panic disorder.
Specifically for panic disorder,because it helps you figure out
that even if this attack ishappening, it's okay.
You're not necessarily going tohave another attack.
(45:18):
And even if this attack ishappening, you're not going to
die.
Basically, you've got this idea.
You've got this experience thathappens to you.
You're flooded by emotions.
You think, oh my God, I'm goingto die, right?
That thought is not true.
This automatic thought thenleads to feelings.
In this case, they might lead tofeelings of fear and anxiety and
(45:39):
freaking out.
And these feelings lead tobehaviors.
Behaviors like staying in yourroom, avoiding stuff, running
away, whatever it is.
So you've got this circle ofthoughts, feelings, behavior,
and you get stuck in this loop.
And the only way to break thisis to go back to the automatic
thought and reason with it andtake it to court and say, what
(45:59):
evidence do I have for thisthought?
Everything's good.
I'm not going to die.
I'm just experiencing anxiety.
That makes you feel calmer,doesn't it?
And from there, you can takethat into a better behavior,
something like I'm going to takea walk.
And that is really helpful forpanic disorder because if you go
back and you say, I'm perfectlysafe here.
(46:21):
I have my friends.
I have my phone.
I have my dinner, whatever.
Then your next feeling will besafety and your next behavior
will be walking down the streetdoing something happy.
Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_03 (46:31):
Yeah.
I think it's just like anything,you know, whether it's riding a
bike or driving a car, to learnsomething new like that, it's
practice.
SPEAKER_01 (46:41):
Yeah, it's really great.
In fact, I've been through the12-week program for CBT for
panic attacks.
So I have it from both apatient's perspective and I have
it from a clinical perspective.
If you go for a pure CBT course,they send you for about 12
weeks, with the CBTpractitioner.
You get these worksheets to fillout about the thought you were
(47:04):
having, what kind of panic oranxiety it was producing, how
you challenged it.
They give you ways you canchallenge it.
Are you generalizing?
Are you catastrophizing?
And you have to take every oneof your thoughts to trial and
hash it out on the page.
And it's really kind of mindblowing.
And of course they give yourelaxation techniques and
(47:25):
breathing and mindfulness tohelp you in that moment.
But to get down to the bedrockof it and undo some of the
mechanism, they give you theseways to unravel your thoughts.
SPEAKER_03 (47:38):
Yeah, and put a stop to going down this downward
spiral.
SPEAKER_01 (47:43):
Yeah, and it's so important to know in the moment
that it's not interminable,although it certainly feels
interminable.
Panic attack, usually it'll peakat about 10 minutes, come down
at about 30 or 40, but it doesnot last forever.
SPEAKER_03 (47:58):
That's always good to hear.
But when you're in it, it'spretty bad.
Yeah.
Okay.
So we talked a little abouttherapy.
What kind of medications canpeople take for panic attacks?
And what are your thoughts onthat?
SPEAKER_01 (48:13):
This is a subject that people have lots of
opinions on.
You can take medication forpanic disorder.
People take Xanax for panicdisorder.
Like any medications, there areproblems, there are side
effects.
I'm not anti-medication.
I am pro-medication as needed.
I think people are often quickto say, give me the pill, it's
(48:34):
the quickest solution.
However, this is one of thoseyou will get better and longer,
more lasting relief fromsomething like CBT than you will
from a pill.
And pills like Xanax are, infact, Habit forming, coming off
of them can be very difficult.
(48:55):
So you set yourself up with alot of other problems.
You have to put in the work tolearn about yourself and to do
the skills and learn the skills.
But then you have those skillsforever.
It's like you learned a wholenew language to help yourself.
You can apply those CBT skillsto so many things.
OCD, anxiety, depression, eatingdisorders.
(49:16):
If you're really depressed andyou're thinking, I'm so
worthless.
Okay, that's a thought thatyou're having.
But you got to go back andexamine, is that a true thought?
If you can go back to thethought and deal with the
thought and why it's notrational and why it's not true,
then the rest of these dominoeswill fall into place.
And that will make you feelbetter and that will make you
(49:37):
behave better.
So you can apply those CBTskills to so many things.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (49:42):
So Sean's panic attacks then became a panic
disorder and then it escalatedto agoraphobia.
Can you explain like in simpleterms what agoraphobia is and
how it happens?
SPEAKER_01 (49:56):
What happens is if you have a panic disorder and
you are afraid that you're goingto have another panic attack,
you often develop the next step,which is agoraphobia.
You don't want to go outside ofthe house into a crowd or in a
line or in an open space oranywhere.
from where you won't be able toescape if you do have a panic
attack.
SPEAKER_03 (50:16):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (50:17):
So that's like, you have a panic attack, then you
have a panic disorder, and thenyou develop agoraphobia, and if
you don't treat it, it justkeeps escalating.
SPEAKER_03 (50:24):
I see.
SPEAKER_01 (50:25):
And that's why people end up being shut in
their homes, really panicky,because they don't want to go,
oh my god, what if I get on abus, and I have a panic attack
on the bus, and if I'm going todie on the bus, then what
happens?
SPEAKER_03 (50:38):
Yeah, I guess just the whole idea of hiding away
and not being with people, it'sjust a dangerous position to be
in because as humans, we need toconnect.
And when somebody has a mooddisorder, it's important to not
only connect with people andfamily and friends, but also to
(50:58):
connect with people that mightbe going through the same things
you're going through.
Support groups can really assistin so many ways, not just the
connection, but also justhelping With so many different
solutions, it's always good tohear from somebody who's going
through what you're goingthrough, what has worked for
them.
SPEAKER_01 (51:19):
Yeah.
And that commonality is sopowerful because you don't get
that in everyday life.
And when you're dealing with amental illness, you feel like
it's the whole world.
But if you look at the numbers,the rates for bipolar disorder
are not even 1%.
So chances are, unless you'regoing to a group like this, you
(51:39):
don't know anybody in youreveryday life who also has
bipolar disorder.
The odds are pretty unlikely.
So making those connections isjust so invaluable because it
validates your experience ofwhat's going on.
SPEAKER_03 (51:50):
Yes, and if you're looking for a local support
group, visitcheckyourheadpodcast.com where
you'll find contact informationfor NAMI, which is the National
Alliance for Mental Illness, andDBSA, which is the Depression
and Bipolar Support Alliance.
Both of these organizations canhelp you get in touch with free
(52:11):
local support groups.
And for musicians in particular,you can contact Backline or Tour
Support to find additionalmental health resources.
You can find those on ourwebsite at
checkyourheadpodcast.com.
And if you need help in payingfor your treatment, there are
organizations like Sweet ReliefMusicians Fund, a nonprofit
(52:34):
specifically for musicians inneed that can assist in helping
you pay.
A big thank you to our musicalguests, Sean Long of While She
Sleeps and Andrew Vasiliev fromDBSA San Gabriel Valley.
For more information on WhileShe Sleeps, their new album
Sleep Society, and theirupcoming UK tour dates, visit
(52:55):
WhileSheSleeps.com and followthem on their socials at
WhileSheSleeps.
And be sure to stay tuned tohear a clip of their latest
single, Nervous, at the end ofour episode.
For more information on AndreaVasiliev and DBSA San Gabriel
Valley, visit dbsasgv.org orfind them and over 100 other
(53:17):
mental health resources on ourwebsite at
checkyourheadpodcast.com.
So until next time, be brave,ask for help, and be persistent
in finding the mental healththat you need.
SPEAKER_02 (53:31):
All this pain we got Check
SPEAKER_03 (53:59):
Your Head podcast is kindly supported and partnered
with Sweet Relief MusiciansFund, DBSA San Gabriel Valley,
and Thank you for your supportand thank you for listening.
Welcome to the Check Your Head podcast, the podcast
where notable musicians andexperts come and share their
stories and solutions for mentalhealth and wellness.
I'm your host, Mari Fong, amusic journalist and life coach
for musicians, and today I'mthrilled to interview an amazing
guitarist from the metalcoreband While She Sleeps, whose
(00:23):
latest single, Nervous, is basedon guitarist Sean Long's own
mental health journey and callsit the most important song he's
ever written.
Sean's journey includes livingwith anxiety, which also
includes panic attacks, panicdisorder, and agoraphobia.
While She Sleeps single Nervousis off their fifth album called
(00:44):
Sleep Society, which justdropped on April 16th, and we'll
be playing a clip of the song atthe end of our episode.
Next, we'll be speaking withmental health expert Andrea
Vasiliev from the Depression andBipolar Support Alliance, who'll
give us insight on panicattacks, panic disorder, and
agoraphobia, and how cognitivebehavioral therapy can play a
(01:07):
part in the road to recovery.
But first, let's hear Sean Longof While She Sleeps share his
story.
And you know, now that we're onthe topic of live shows, that is
such a wonderful feeling for thefans, but I also know it's a
wonderful feeling for the band.
During this pandemic, how haveyou dealt with not having that
(01:31):
part of your life?
SPEAKER_00 (01:33):
I think most artists are now really feeling the sting
of this.
I know I've been feeling itrather subconsciously and now
i've kind of added it alltogether and maybe this is why
i've been feeling certain thingslike a lot of what we do as a
band is we spend an hour onstage kind of exerting all this
energy that we've been buildingup whether it's personal or
whether it's the energy we wantto get out in the songs or
(01:54):
whatever if you have this momentwhere your personality goes out
the window and you get to reallyjust express yourself freely and
there's not much There's notmuch suffering and not many
problems can get in thosemoments.
And especially for a metal bandlike us, we go fucking mental on
stage.
So there's a lot of energyrelease there.
And I think I'm missing thatnow.
And that's what a lot of artistsare going to start to notice is
(02:16):
that a lot of angst building upand some kind of energy release
that we're missing out on.
SPEAKER_03 (02:22):
Well, I think especially for...
metal bands and the kind of liveshow that you put on.
I mean, everybody's jumping,everybody's like expressing and
they're just having a greattime.
And I realized that kind ofexpression of emotion, we don't
normally get to do that in oureveryday lives.
(02:42):
I mean, we just don't get to dothat.
But with music, whether it'splaying or whether it's
expressing yourself during thelive show, just letting all of
that out, it just makes you feelso good.
SPEAKER_00 (02:55):
Well, think about that from a fan's perspective as
well.
How many people would feelcomfortable just screaming or
singing a song really loud?
You don't ever do that.
And I think that's an importantpart of being a human.
I think there's so manyspiritual practices that involve
screaming and letting out.
I think there's a reason behindthat.
And I think for the averageperson, they don't get to do
(03:18):
that ever.
When do they get to jump aroundand just scream without being...
looked at as like a mentalperson in the street or
something.
I think everyone needs that.
Like everyone needs thatrelease.
SPEAKER_03 (03:29):
Absolutely.
And speaking of your new album,you have a song called Nervous
on it, which you wrote.
And you said that it's thesingle most important song I've
ever written in my life.
And it's about acute anxiety.
And I'm wondering, can youdescribe how acute anxiety shows
up in your life?
SPEAKER_00 (03:50):
I can.
Where it manifests for me interms of my expression,
especially music and the way Ispeak about these things, it
comes from a moment in my life afew years ago, actually.
So acute anxiety and really deepanxiety doesn't affect me as
much anymore.
I found a way out of that.
And the reason why I'm soempowered to talk about it.
So I experience all kinds ofanxieties all the time, like I
(04:13):
get nervous for interviews.
This is a common thing I say alot.
And just stuff like socialanxieties, these are things that
I can deal with.
Because I think everyone dealswith these things on different
levels, but it's just sometimesthey may go a little bit deeper
for a specific individual.
And for me, it went that way.
It went quite deep.
And I found a way out.
So that's how I speak about itin terms of acute, because there
(04:35):
was a moment where it wentreally bad for me.
And Now, having come through theother end, that's where my
inspiration comes to talk aboutit because I know whilst you're
in that place, it's very easy tobelieve that you can never get
out of it.
That's what I believe, hand onheart.
I didn't believe anything otherthan that.
I didn't think I'd ever make itout.
(04:56):
And I did.
So that's where the inspirationcomes from.
But I deal with anxiety daily,but it's not problematic
anymore.
It's more just It is what it iskind of thing, but I'm out of
that hole, which is where I'dlike to give my inspiration to
people stuck in a similarposition.
SPEAKER_03 (05:11):
Well, I think you used some words that really
describe what it feels like whenyou fall into an acute anxiety
or a severe depression.
It's like you fall into a hole,like you're at the bottom of a
dark well and you're trying toget help, but you're not able to
(05:33):
see the light or it's very hardto see the light.
And you're trying to find a wayout of that.
I know you've also talked aboutdepression in the past and they
often go hand in hand,depression and anxiety.
But you mentioned that a fewyears ago that it got really bad
for you.
Was there something thattriggered that or something that
(05:54):
was going on in your life thatkind of made you spiral to a
depression?
deeper, darker place.
SPEAKER_00 (06:01):
Yeah.
And I think this is very commonfor a lot of people in this
situation too.
It's usually some traumaticevent that kind of sets this
ongoing struggle off.
It's usually some kind ofpinnacle event, not for
everyone, but I know it was forme.
I'll try not to go too deep intoit.
It's quite a big story.
The short version of it is, nowI don't put this all down to
drinking and partying and stufflike that.
(06:23):
But as I was growing up and wewere getting more successful in
the band, it was very common andvery normal for If you live in
England, basically, you party.
It's quite normal for people todrink and party in England.
And if you're in a band, youparty a little bit more.
And in retrospect, I do feellike it might have got a little
bit out of hand, but I was neverlike an alcoholic or a drug
addict or anything like that.
That's not my story, but I dothink it played a part.
(06:44):
So I think it was 2015 WarpedTour, basically partying every
night, nonstop.
I used to smoke as well.
My diet was terrible.
But before this, I had a problemwith shortness of breath.
Every now and then, I hadasthma, but really mild asthma.
And I had this problem withshortness of breath that I
completely ignored my entirelife.
I never saw it as a problem.
And then I played this show.
(07:06):
It was in Vegas.
It was the hottest show to datein history.
I walked all that day.
So I basically had this panicattack and I'd never had a panic
attack in my life.
And I couldn't breathe withoutgoing too deep into that moment
because that was the traumaticmoment for me.
It was one of the worst momentsof my life.
Really, really terrifying,especially when I'd never really
touched suffering like that.
(07:26):
And it just came at me like...
a million knives all at once.
But the interesting thing, itwas from that moment, my
nightmare started actually.
So that moment was terrible, butthen it was two to three years
after that, which reallydestroyed my life from that
moment.
From then, my mind completelyconsumed me and almost all the
common symptoms of anxiety anddepression and agoraphobia and
(07:50):
all these things just followedme after that.
I've obviously experienced painand suffering and anxiety before
that, but never to this extentwhatsoever.
Nothing that I would see as likea landmark in my life.
So it was this event.
And then afterwards, life got alittle bit difficult.
SPEAKER_03 (08:06):
The thing with anxiety too, is that, you know,
there's worrying and there'sconcern, but anxiety is like off
the charts.
And it can also includeirrational fears, fears that you
know that don't even make sense,but in your mind, it feels real.
So what were some of theanxieties or the thoughts in
(08:28):
your head that were consumingyour thoughts?
SPEAKER_00 (08:32):
Because I'd never had a panic attack.
I'd never had this negative rushof pain just completely consume
me so quick because I've neverbeen faced with such a scenario.
I My mind just said, I can'tbreathe.
So then obviously what comesafter that is pure panic.
What would you mean I can'tbreathe?
Isn't that not the end then?
So afterwards, I developed thisfear of having a panic attack or
(08:53):
fainting or this thing wouldcome, which was the anxiety, of
course, would come.
I'd have this big attack and I'ddie.
It's a lot more complicated thanthat.
But the short version is that Iwas scared that this would
happen again, but I would diethis time.
So it was always this peak.
I was always worried aboutreaching its peak.
But the interesting thing iswhat I've realized years later
(09:16):
is that there was never no peakto be reached.
This was the anxiety.
It was the worrying about thepeak.
So I was always scared of it.
It's going to get to this endgame, big faint.
They're going to have to callthe ambulance so I can't breathe
or something like that wascreating this worry inside me.
But years later, I found outthat was the anxiety.
That was the peak.
And that was the thing I had todeal with.
(09:37):
I mean, I could have gotdiagnosed with a lot of things.
I think agoraphobia would havebeen one of them.
I was very afraid to go too faraway from my house because I
thought the further I got away,the more the panic would come
thinking that this thing wouldhappen and no one would be
around to save me.
So that kind of kept mebedridden and home ridden for
quite some time.
At the very beginning of it, Iwas actually so frightened to go
(09:59):
outside.
I'd even drink a little bit togo outside.
But this time, for the firsttime in my life, I drink because
I knew it was going to take thepain away.
Whereas before, I was drinkingjust because I thought it was
fun.
I mean, I never knew I wascovering up a subconscious
problem.
But the shit your mind makes upand how...
It doesn't matter how irrationalit is.
(10:20):
It's from the individualperspective.
And those are the things thatbothered me, this whole thing
about not being able to catch mybreath, about fainting, about
this thing coming.
So then your mind just runs awaywith that and creates the most
nightmarish things for you,specifically for you.
So everyone's is completelydifferent.
So now I could give someone myproblems and it wouldn't affect
them because they haven't had myexperiences.
So I think it's very individual,but yeah, that's the short
(10:44):
version of it.
SPEAKER_03 (10:45):
Yeah, I totally get that.
I mean, I remember when I wasgoing through bad anxiety, for
some reason, I was so afraidthat I could never find a
parking spot.
And for some reason, that wasjust a disaster.
And so these fears that don'teven make sense to us, but feel
real, the agoraphobia comes fromthe safety of being at home,
(11:09):
thinking that If you stay athome, all of these thoughts, all
of these fears, you have abetter chance of them not
happening.
But then you're stuck at home.
How did that affect your workand your career as a musician?
SPEAKER_00 (11:26):
Yeah, I was out of the game for quite some time
when this happened.
It was a very serious thing inmy life at the time.
It was very...
I couldn't work.
It's very hard for me to talkabout and articulate how bad it
was for me personally, but Iknow people would relate.
Like I mentioned, agoraphobia,but there was no remedy for me
staying at home and making mefeel a little bit safer.
It was just whenever I wanted totry and maybe just go to the
(11:50):
woods and get some fresh air, Icouldn't even do that.
So I'm still at home.
It was a really strange thingbecause every moment of the day
was me facing this new problem.
So it was almost like I had thislife before and then I woke up
and then it was all anxiety.
So I'd open my eyes and it wasinstant, straight thinking about
my breathing.
Am I breathing right?
(12:11):
Maybe I'm going to have thispanic attack.
And it was relentless.
So the agoraphobia was just thecherry on top.
In terms of the career aspect,that was just gone.
And that was on hold for as longas it took for me to kind of
figure out what the fuck wasgoing on and like I went to the
doctors for help and theyoffered me some tablets which I
denied I was in a really badplace and I really wanted
(12:33):
something to take Like when thisis this new fear that comes out
of nowhere, you kind of, youwant that secret pill because
it's so complicated.
You just want, give me that pilland let me get rid of it.
But I knew deep down, that's notreally what I wanted, but I went
down to the doctors to get itanyway, because I was just like,
look, you need to give me some,I'm freaking, I thought I was
losing my mind kind of thing.
So they gave me the tablets andthen I went home and read the
(12:54):
side effects and that just mademy anxiety trip out even more.
And it was that moment where Irealized I can't take the
tablets because I just don'tagree with, that being the
answer for me.
So it was that moment where Iturned another way.
SPEAKER_03 (13:07):
There must have been family or your bandmates or
friends that knew about this.
How did they react to what youwere going through?
SPEAKER_00 (13:16):
Everyone was supportive, but I think everyone
was very worried because like Isay, It was one day to the next.
So I know my friends, there wasa lot of conversations with even
our management because we wereall very close at the time.
We didn't know what to dobecause even my closest friends
didn't have a clue and didn'thave an answer.
(13:37):
And that's the terrifying thingabout it really is that even you
don't have the answer.
And so it's very worrying foreveryone else.
And one of the scariest thingsabout it is that for me, I was
so endowed in it that no oneexternal would really be able to
help me.
I had to figure this out myselfbecause all the love and support
around me wasn't really givingme any help.
(13:58):
It was so confusing for me.
And I remember to illustrate howstrange it was for my friends is
the day it happened, I had thepanic attack.
I kind of came down from thisinsane fear.
And I remember talking to mytour manager before I went back
to the bus.
I told my tour managerspecifically, please tell the
lads not to speak to me or askme what happened because I was
(14:19):
so worried their question wouldfire off this new mind thing
I've got, which would, thethoughts would roll and snowball
into this new panic attack andit'd happen again.
So my fear was that high.
I said, please, I can't haveanyone speak to me about it.
And it was really weird becausethe way I was walking, I
remember after the panic attack,I was walking like I was
physically sick.
I almost couldn't walk rightbecause it hit me so hard.
(14:42):
It was so weird.
And then obviously my friendssee me walk on the bus after not
knowing what happened.
And then the tall man is saying,don't speak to him.
I think it was a very confusingtime for everyone.
So I definitely have sympathyfor people's loved ones and
friends when it comes soradically out of the blue.
It's a scary time for everyone.
SPEAKER_03 (15:02):
Yeah, it's scary.
And that's it.
It's like people on the outsidedon't know what's going on, but
yourself...
SPEAKER_02 (15:09):
You
SPEAKER_03 (15:09):
don't know what's going on either.
You're confused.
The thoughts in your head aren'tmaking sense to you, but you're
still feeling them.
So you were in a place where youfelt trapped.
I mean, if you're agoraphobicand you feel like, oh gosh, how
am I going to get out of this ifI don't want to get out of the
house?
I mean, what finally made yousee the light to...
(15:31):
And I'm sure you tried a fewdifferent things, right?
To help yourself.
SPEAKER_00 (15:36):
When it was really bad...
I was still having alcohol everynow and then, but I was very
aware that this was the wrongway to go.
I was very sure that I shouldn'tbe doing this.
I need to figure something outsoon.
So then that's when I went tothe doctors and trying to get
some synthetic help from theWestern angle.
And I knew it wasn't at heartwhat I wanted to do.
So it was that moment when I waslike, I've got to stop smoking,
stop drinking.
(15:57):
And that's when I turned tonatural healing.
And this is when I got reallydrawn to spirituality and
Eastern teaching and meditationand all that world.
But it was not like I justturned over to it and I'm like,
oh, I found the answer.
It was a real grind to tryand...
Because I was faced with thereal question.
It was like, I can't take thesetablets.
(16:19):
I'm struggling right now.
I don't know what to do, but I'malso not in a position to end my
life or anything like that.
So I got given those paths andI'm like, I'm not going to let
this thing beat me, even thoughsuicidal thoughts did present
themselves to me at times, but Iwas in a place to kind of
observe them.
not let them consume me.
So when it's this deep, youreally don't want to spend your
time working on it becausethere's so much pain involved.
So that's what I meant by goinghead on.
(16:41):
I'm like, I have to look.
There's no other way out for me.
And it was the spirituality.
I don't know if that's the bestword, but it was that angle, the
alternative healing angle.
I knew it was the way I had togo.
And then it was through muchresearch and I follow a lot of
teachers that really gave me thepower to look in myself, which
ultimately for me is healing.
(17:02):
the answer to these problemsfundamentally.
It's not the cure that everyonewants to hear, that everyone
wants to take something or drinksome tea, but the remedy that no
one really wants is that you'vegot to look within with some
honest eyes and it's very hardto do and I'm working on it
still myself, but it'sevaporated the bulk of this
disgusting suffering that justcame out of nowhere.
SPEAKER_03 (17:25):
Well, I know you've talked about Eastern medicine
and Eckhart Tolle and Alan Wattsthat you read.
And I really appreciate thatbecause the podcast was about
finding the solutions that workfor you because you have to have
a lot of persistence.
You've got to try a lot ofthings and a lot of things may
not work for you.
And sometimes it takes time,right?
(17:46):
Whether it's medication orwhether it's a therapy or
whether it's a mindset.
SPEAKER_00 (17:52):
Yeah.
And I'd say as well, like you'resaying, I don't think there's
anything wrong with any methodthat people choose.
Everyone's so individual.
It varies from person to personso vastly.
My answer is not the rightanswer.
And the things that I detest inmy life also aren't the wrong
answers.
I think that's important topromote as well.
Like it's different things workfor different people for sure.
SPEAKER_03 (18:12):
Yeah.
Have you ever had issues withdepression?
Cause I said that it does oftencome with anxiety.
SPEAKER_00 (18:19):
Well, I don't promote to know too much about
depression only for the factthat I know that predominantly
my problems came from this fear.
I was depressed because of myanxiety.
I was very aware of how much itwas destroying my life, even to
the point of I can't even go tosleep.
I have an old lyric in a songwhich was, don't want to be
awake, don't want to sleep,which was pretty negative lyric
(18:41):
because I couldn't sleep and itwas a traumatic time trying to
sleep.
But in the day, it was just painall day.
Do you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_03 (18:49):
So with the anxiety, now living with it, what are
some of the triggers that youhave to watch out for?
SPEAKER_00 (18:57):
So the triggers when I was kind of on the mend,
basically your mind's designedthese little ways of fucking you
over.
So it's a good idea not to putyourselves in those situations,
not to give your mind aheadstart.
So one of them for me was don'tdrink because this entire thing
happened for me during ahangover.
So if you drink and you'retrying to drink away your
(19:18):
problems, you're basicallygiving your negative energy or
your mind a head start the nextday.
So if you have a tendency tohave these negative thoughts and
you're in a hungover state,you've given your problem an
incredible head start.
So stop doing that.
It's a good bit of advice and itdoes hurt a lot more to stop
that, but it'll be worth it inthe long run.
(19:39):
And things like, I was veryafraid to lose my breath.
i mean and being in tight spacesand being constricted so i just
avoid things like that but theseare temporary so whilst you're
on the mend it's just aboutawareness is key i think in all
of this so when you start torealize the way your mind keeps
trying to play tricks on youbecause it when it realizes it's
kind of winning you over incertain circumstances it will do
(20:02):
it again and again and some overtime your awareness gains a
little bit of control thissituation makes me feel that way
I think those are the realtriumphant moments for people on
the mend is when it's bravery,man.
It doesn't seem like bravery toanyone else, but to put yourself
in those situations, I had tobasically relive my life again,
which was really annoyingbecause I had no problem with
flying.
(20:23):
I was okay.
I was an okay flyer.
It's like, no problem.
It's my life.
I travel around the world andplay gigs.
It's just what I do.
After this event, it's like Ihad to do it all again, but with
anxiety.
It was really awful to go backthrough my life and do normal
things, but now with this fearof, fucking die in any second or
something like that.
So sometimes you have to throwyourself in there to prove that
(20:45):
your fears will not come tofruition.
Sometimes throw yourself inthere.
And for me, over time, I'm like,it never happens.
This thing never fuckinghappens.
And my mind is still getting meto invest my time into believing
that this thing is going tohappen.
So throw yourself in the deepend and really be like, is it
really going to take me downlike I keep dreaming it up to.
SPEAKER_03 (21:09):
Well, I think you sort of described the battles
that can happen in your head.
And that's an ongoing battle.
And you're constantly alsolearning about yourself and what
works.
And I read somewhere that yousaid to look inside to find what
the core of the problem is.
When you looked inside, what didyou discover?
SPEAKER_00 (21:30):
So The predominant factor of a lot of this pain was
a very physical emotion in mychest.
So when I develop this anxietyof shortness of breath, it's a
very physical sensation that Ican't breathe.
But clearly I have enoughoxygen.
I'm literally sat at home doingnothing.
I can't be running out of air,but it really feels like I need
(21:53):
more air.
That's what it generates for me.
And putting your attention onthat whilst you've got this
monkey mind kind of trying to...
The mind likes to suffer.
I learned this from EckhartTolle, like it really enjoys to
suffer and it's true.
Once it's in pain, it will doits best to keep you in pain.
So whilst you've got this mindthat's trying to bring you down,
(22:14):
whilst I was putting myattention on basically the
scariest part of my life, whichwas the shortness of breath
center, when you put yourattention there, it doesn't
stop, but it stops it growingany further.
So that's why awareness is key.
oh, there's the thought thatusually brings me down to that
(22:36):
place.
I recognize this pattern now.
And then you're almost given, ina weird way to put it, you're
given a choice sometimes todecide whether or not, do I want
to go down that rabbit hole?
Because you can have positiverabbit holes as well.
I think that's where creationcomes from.
You have an idea and then itsnowballs.
And then the next thing youknow, you've made an album.
So it's your choice to go downthat rabbit hole sometimes.
Just like when you're in bed andyou can't sleep and you're just
(22:58):
thinking up some crazy fuckingidea or something.
But then the negative rabbitholes are the ones that bring
you down.
There's no time to put yourattention in and try and look
inwards.
And deep down, I know that wasthe answer to look at it, but I
always was confused as what doesthat even mean to look at it?
How do I look at it?
Where is it?
It feels like it's everywhere.
As soon as you put yourattention on anything
internally, you give your mind alittle break.
(23:19):
And it's usually the mind that'smaking up a lot of these
stories, which then evoke aterrible reaction emotionally.
And that's the sensation that wedon't like.
So that awareness, it slowlystarts to bring you to some
peace.
And that is easier said thandone for sure.
It's definitely not an easything to do.
SPEAKER_03 (23:36):
So when this feeling starts coming up, what kind of
strategies and coping skillshave you learned that worked for
you?
Because you did talk aboutself-awareness.
So now you've come to the pointwhere you are aware of the
feeling of it and the thoughtsof it.
SPEAKER_00 (23:55):
Well, let me just say, the reason I enjoy talking
about these things is because Idon't think it's a mental health
problem we're all dealing with.
I think it's a spiritualproblem.
And there's a reason why we'reall in so much pain on so many
different levels.
So it could be insecurities.
It could be jealousy.
It could be anger.
These are emotions I feel.
These are emotions everyonefeels at some point in their
life, along with happiness andthese negatively charged
(24:18):
emotions, which are not to bethrown away because they're
telling you something aboutyourself.
And they're there to be lookedat.
For me, it's when you're in agreat mood and And you're filled
with joy.
There's no need to look inwardand find out more about yourself
because you're in a great state.
So there's a lot of benefit infeeling these negative emotions
because it's a wake-up call tolook a little bit deeper.
(24:40):
It doesn't have to be justdepression here and just anxiety
here.
Feeling sad is a form ofdepression, but sometimes it
goes too deep for some peopleand that's when it becomes a
problem.
So I think there's immensebenefits from experiencing these
things.
It's a good thing because it'smaking you look deeper into the
(25:00):
nature of being alive andexistence in general.
I think for me anyway, it goes alot deeper than just an anxiety
attack.
I think it's saying a lot moreabout who we are as people and
any emotion or emotionalresponse to anything external or
internal is a wake up call tolook inside.
Why is all this insecuritycoming up me?
Why is this feeling consumingme?
(25:22):
That's what I've learned a lotthrough looking inward.
I still feel a lot of theseemotions, but I'm very aware of
them the second they presentthemselves.
So I almost get given thischoice whether to go along with
emotions and be a very jealousperson or be a very angry
person, or I have a choice tosubside and kind of be aware of
it while it consumes me, butdon't go any further with my
mind.
(25:42):
But again, I'm on a journey too.
Sometimes I fuck up and my angerwill get the best of me and it's
too quick because the angercomes too quick and your
awareness has no chance to grabit.
And before you know it, you'realready in the angry state.
You're thinking angry thoughts.
When you're happy, you thinkhappy thoughts.
When you're angry, you thinkangry thoughts.
You're consumed.
It's too late.
The awareness has gone.
SPEAKER_03 (26:03):
Yeah.
That's the challenge, right?
Emotions can be very reactiveand some people have emotions
that go one to 10 and somepeople have emotions that go one
to a thousand.
And in those moments where theyget really big, you may not be
as much in control of themunless you are aware of what's
happening and what you'rethinking.
(26:23):
And if you think about the causeof those emotions, I call it
giving respect to your emotions.
Like there are a lot of peoplethat try to stuff those away or
put them away.
And I think what happens whenyou do that, it just slowly
starts to grow bigger and biggerand come out in very unhealthy
(26:44):
ways.
But once we really look at itand talk with it and find out
why, I think it's giving respectto your emotions.
And I feel that all emotions aresort of like the colors of the
rainbow.
It makes us who we are and itcreates our personality.
SPEAKER_00 (27:03):
I agree.
I think emotions are emotions.
It's this whole idea of, oh, Ihave these good emotions and I
have these bad emotions.
I think this is the entireconcept of Zen Buddhism.
You have the good on the oneside, the bad on the other side,
and there's a place in themiddle, which I think they call
Ananda.
I'm reading this audio bookrecently called Radical
Forgiveness, and there'ssomething in it I really love.
(27:24):
He's talking about basicallyanything that you detest in
someone else or something thatyou really dislike in someone
else, it really creates anemotional reaction in yourself.
There's something in you that isvery similar to what you're
detesting so much.
So when you get these reactions,these people that are causing
them are actually your guardianangels to show you it's telling
(27:46):
you something about yourself.
And I think it's very true.
So if you get really angry or ifyou get really jealous with this
one person, it's a mirror.
They're showing you somethingabout yourself and therefore
it's a wake-up call to look in.
So I like to promote that idea.
Anything that you perceive asnegative...
That is the wake up call to havea look inside.
That's what it's there for.
SPEAKER_03 (28:07):
Right.
Good advice.
You know, you talked aboutforgiveness.
And I think sometimes whenpeople go through bouts of
depression or anxiety, they canact in a way that maybe
afterwards they feel like, oh,gosh, maybe I need to apologize.
Have you ever been in thosesituations where you really feel
(28:27):
like I need to explain whathappened there?
SPEAKER_00 (28:32):
No, for me, it was like the life or death situation
for me.
That's what it felt like.
So I became quite selfish.
I need to fix this.
This is really destroying me.
I need to fix it.
So there was never any need forme to apologize.
And I knew everyone around meunderstood.
And I think everyone has a rightto be selfish, man.
I don't think apology isnecessary sometimes.
(28:53):
So I've never felt the need toapologize.
Maybe if it's an anger thing,for sure, I'll have to apologize
for that.
SPEAKER_03 (28:59):
Well, that's good that a lot of people in your
circle understand what you'regoing through.
And it's been a process.
You talked about being in areally bad place.
And when people are in that badplace, what were some of the
things that you started to dothat started to work that helped
you get out of that hole?
SPEAKER_00 (29:19):
One of the things I really got interested in was
Chinese medicine.
um and herbal remedies and stuffi really fell into that world
i've got a book to recommend aswell here as we'll recommend it
now now we're on the subjectsure this is the ancient wisdom
of chinese tonic herbs by rontiergarden and it's basically
everything you need to knowabout tonic herbs and now i
(29:41):
never think that they cured mebut i'll tell you what they did
do which i think is reallyimportant on this journey They
gave me like optimism and theywere like, I fucking found
something that I really believethat this might help me.
And a specific herb calledreishi mushroom, I really
connected with it.
And I really thought this wasgonna help me.
And I started taking these herbsalong with the meditation and
(30:03):
stuff.
And the good thing about tonicherbs and herbal remedies, this
is my theory on it anyway.
So yeah, what herbal remediesare really good for is not
curing the problem, But you cantake things to help with the
feelings of anxiety, which issomething that herbal remedies
help with, in the same way thatsynthetic medicine helps with
(30:23):
too.
But in my opinion, I don't thinkit will get rid of the problem,
but they're very good allies andtools to have when you're
feeling these sensations.
When I started to leave thehouse, I'd never leave the house
without some valerian root andsome reishi mushroom, just
because I feel like I've got afriend with me, like a herb that
can help me.
Natural sedatives was a good wayif it got too sharp, like
(30:46):
valerian root or chamomile orpassion flower or astralagus,
lots of things like that.
So I think they're really goodhelpers.
And the reason I got drawn toreishi mushrooms so much is just
the concept that mushroomsbasically grow on dying matter.
And what they do is they breakthat down for new life to grow.
So they feed on the negative,they feed on the shadow, they
(31:09):
feed on the dark side of life tobring new life in.
And I read a few things aboutreishi mushroom.
They call it the mushroom ofimmortality for multiple
reasons, one of them being aspiritual reason.
And it just made sense to me.
And again, whether or not thisis true, it helped me because I
had optimism and it empowered meto help myself.
So just the idea that mushroomscan start to work on your
(31:31):
subconscious level, the darkside that you don't like, maybe
the mushrooms can break thatdown to make it more malleable
and manageable throughout theday.
And that's what it felt like itdid for me.
It wasn't consuming me as much.
It was there, but I could managethrough my day.
So I think finding somethingthat you feel strongly, I think
(31:51):
this is a good thing for me.
I'm going to give this a go.
That's what I like about this.
And I want people to get into isfinding something to help
yourself that you feel reallypassionate about.
Like, I've got a good feelingabout this thing.
I'm going to try that.
Fuck, that didn't work.
I'm going to try something else.
I'm going to go again.
So I think that's reallyimportant.
SPEAKER_03 (32:09):
Yeah, I love natural remedies and I drink all kinds
of teas and things like that.
And the thing with herbalmedicine is that it's been tried
and true for a long time.
So we know that there's somesafety in the body.
However, you have to also watchout.
There are some things, ofcourse, that are also natural
(32:29):
that can harm you.
But have you ever tried...
I mean, conventionally, there'stherapy and there's medication.
Have you ever tried...
conventional types of thingsthat have worked?
SPEAKER_00 (32:43):
No, I'm not against it.
It's just for me personally,it's not what I wanted to do.
But I don't think there'sanything wrong with that.
I just couldn't get on boardwith these tablets that can only
help with the symptoms ofanxiety, which is the feelings
and stuff.
They cannot, in my opinion...
solve the issue of thefundamental problem like why am
i overthinking these things buti do know for a fact that they
(33:04):
really do help a lot of peopleso i'm not against them
whatsoever this is just apersonal thing for me and in
terms of therapy i got offeredcb cbt
SPEAKER_03 (33:14):
right cognitive behavioral therapy which is like
talk therapy
SPEAKER_00 (33:18):
yeah yeah so i got offered that very early in the
early stages of this thing and iwas tripping balls over and i
was like give me the fuckingtablets basically but i think
that kind of therapy anythingthat kind of directs your
attention inwards and you'reworking with yourself and on
yourself in that way i thinkit's more than beneficial and so
the spectrum is so wide becauseit's so different from person to
(33:42):
person because i follow so manyspiritual teachers I get a lot
of inspiration from those kindof people, but they all say
something that the other onedidn't, even though they're all
talking about the same thing.
I can hope to be that forsomeone because I think I'm a
relatively common person.
I'm nothing special at all.
I'm just a dude from Sheffield.
I hope to say something thatjust hits that nail for someone.
(34:03):
Do you know what I mean?
Because sometimes words passpeople all the time.
I can read something and it justdoesn't resonate with me for
some reason, but just a fewwords and I'm like, oh, fuck, I
really get that.
That makes sense to me.
So I hope that's what I want todo for people, really.
Even if it's just a few words ofencouragement, do you know what
I mean?
SPEAKER_03 (34:19):
Well, hope and encouragement and support, those
are all really important wordsfor mood disorders, especially
when you're going through them.
Speaking out is such a wonderfulthing.
So I really thank you forsharing all that.
But it really helps your fans,people that listen to you and
admire your music.
What are some of the things thatyou hear on the road from fans
(34:42):
that make you feel like you'vemade a positive difference?
SPEAKER_00 (34:46):
Yeah, it's a weird life we're living in.
And people tell me that I'vesaved their life and stuff.
And I really don't want to saythat with any kind of
egotistical undertones oranything like that because it's
not like that.
But when you hear that shit, I'mlike, wow, really?
And not just me because of theanxiety things I talk about.
They'll say just the band hassaved their life.
(35:08):
That's something.
We're all alive.
We get born here and we die hereand there's this thing in the
middle.
So just to do something likethat for someone, just to
relieve a bit of pain just forthat moment is just mad special.
Especially when that's notalways the main intention.
Our main intention isn't just tosave lives.
Sometimes we're just having fun.
We want to make some fuckingriffs.
You know what I mean?
(35:28):
But then there's other timeswe're trying to put some deep
stuff in the music and we wantit to help, like the Nervous
song we're talking about.
But when people say that shit,it's like it makes it all worth
it.
You know what I mean?
It's like, like I say, it's justa weird life.
And to soothe someone's painjust like that, I think, what
more can you ask for?
I think we're all in thisstrange world together.
(35:49):
And that's why it interests meto talk about this shit.
SPEAKER_03 (35:53):
Great, great.
You know, is there anything elsethat you would like to say about
your band while she sleeps orabout mental health?
SPEAKER_00 (36:03):
The thing I'd just say is like, never be ashamed of
your emotions.
We're all in this thingtogether.
It's very confusing.
It's a very strange life.
When people walk around as ifthey know what's what and they
know how life is and what it'sall about, I think those people
are a little bit delusional.
It's very confusing for all ofus and we're all in it together.
(36:26):
Everyone's just doing theirbest.
And that's why I get drawn tothe spiritual world.
And the suffering pushed methere.
I don't know what to say to myfans other than just if you are
struggling with these things,just know I think there's
something a lot deeper that'scalling you.
I don't think it's just aboutyou're in pain and why is the
world doing this to me.
I think it's a much deepermessage for you that you need to
(36:48):
look a little bit deeper to findout.
And I think those things are...
They're screaming at you to takea look at yourself.
So it's not all doom and gloom,even though I know for a fact,
personally, it feels like that.
This is a strange thing to say,but I will say this.
Try and get excited about yourproblems.
Try and get empowered and tryand get optimistic about your
(37:09):
bad experiences.
negative depressions andanxieties.
Because if you can get excitedabout taking care of yourself,
that optimism and thatempowerment is mad powerful.
That's what I think got me outof my hole the most.
Just the attitude of like, Icannot let this beat me.
And I think that goes a longway.
Like have a look at it in thatsense.
If the depression and theanxieties are always coming and
(37:29):
going all the time, What harm isit to try something different
that one time and then trysomething different another
time?
There's no harm because you'regoing to experience it anyway.
It's going to keep coming.
So just keep searching and havesome faith, man.
But I think the answers arethere for everyone.
I truly do.
And there's a short period oftime where we're alive.
And I think it's our job to findout a little bit more about why
(37:51):
we're in so much pain.
SPEAKER_03 (37:53):
Well, I also find, I'm going to speak for myself
here, that when we get to theother side and we're play
detective, which is what we haveto do when something like this
happens, because it's hard forsomebody else, really, even a
doctor or a good friend to knowexactly what you're going
through.
You have to get the strength,even if it's the little bit of
(38:15):
strength left to play detectiveand keep trying and knowing that
there is going to be an answerfor you.
And after you find that answer,you get to a different level of
It's funny because it soundslike a video game.
But you get to a level where youhave even greater joy because
(38:37):
you have an appreciation forlife and you have an
appreciation for what you wentthrough to get to where you are
today.
And you have a greater sense ofconfidence and maybe even
appreciation for yourselfbecause you constantly learn
something new about yourself asyou go through this.
I
SPEAKER_00 (38:55):
could not agree more because...
I felt peace before this event.
Of course, I felt peace.
I felt happiness, but it tastesso much better after these
things I've gone through becausewhen you're in this pain, you no
longer want money.
You no longer want sex, drugs.
All you want is not to suffer.
(39:16):
You know what I mean?
You don't want any materialthings like a new guitar or
clothes, whatever it may be.
You don't want anything.
All you want is to not be inpain anymore.
So once going through that, postthese depressions and anxieties,
when you do feel the peace, thatpeace tastes so much better
because you know that's all youever wanted.
And it actually grounds you alittle bit more.
(39:37):
You start to realize that allthe things that you were chasing
previously externally don'treally solve those problems and
scratch those itches.
It's worth it in that sensebecause the Buddha said this.
He doesn't say whatenlightenment is.
He said what it's not.
And it's the end of suffering.
It's an interesting quote.
That's all we need is not tosuffer.
but the mind's always on afucking rampage to cause some
(40:01):
shit.
You know what I mean?
I agree with you.
It tastes a lot better havingonce experienced that shit.
SPEAKER_03 (40:08):
Yeah, and it seems like all the little things that
might have bothered you in youryounger years just don't bother
you at all because you've gonethrough the big one, right?
You've gone beyond the mountainand, you know, life does get
sweeter sometimes.
Life gets sweeter.
I say that because I want toremind people that there is
(40:30):
beyond the mountain and there'sa beautiful life there.
Yeah.
Next up, we talk with AndreaVasiliev, a speaker, educator,
and support group leader for theDepression and Bipolar Support
Alliance, San Gabriel ValleyChapter in Los Angeles.
(40:50):
Andrea will share her thoughtson therapy, medication, and more
for panic disorder andagoraphobia.
So Andrea, there was a study in2019 that was done with 1500
musicians and they called it the73% study.
And what they did was theyquestioned musicians and asked
them about different mooddisorders.
(41:12):
And they found that about athird of them suffered from
panic attacks, which is a reallyhigh percentage.
So I'm really glad that we'retalking about panic attacks and
also panic disorder.
Can you tell me the differencebetween the two?
SPEAKER_01 (41:26):
So that's really interesting.
You would think that musiciansof all people would have such
great stage presence and lovebeing in the spotlight.
It's interesting for me to learnthat they, in fact, are more
likely to have panic attacks.
So most people in their lifetimewill experience a panic attack
or a panic-like attack.
(41:47):
If it's the real deal, it is anoverwhelming experience in which
you feel...
Your body goes into fight orflight mode.
Your whole body, you feel likeyou're going to die.
Your heart starts racing.
You get dizzy.
You get nauseous.
You're shaking.
You get tingling in your armsand in your legs and your blood
(42:08):
sugar spikes and it's likeeverything.
And you really feel like you'regoing to die in that moment.
But there's no actual threat.
That's the attack.
And panic disorder, it becomes adisorder when a month or so
later, if you're still worriedabout that it's going to happen
again and so worried that it'simpacting your life and your
functioning, that's a panicdisorder.
(42:31):
So people are most likely tohave some kind of genetic
predisposition where this startsand then something may trigger
it, something hormonal or whenthey're older, maybe something,
a trigger of something that's inthe past.
SPEAKER_03 (42:46):
So with Sean, his trigger seemed to be his
drinking, drinking alcohol.
And in fact, his first attackshappened after a long night of
drinking.
So I wanted to talk a littleabout anxiety and alcohol
because they sort of aresometimes interconnected.
People drink for a lot ofdifferent reasons, but anxiety
(43:07):
is really a common reason.
And at first, drinking alcoholcan help relieve anxiety.
You know, we feel looser andrelaxed and more confident.
But what happens is as wecontinue to drink, the alcohol
can actually exacerbate anxietyand make it worse.
(43:29):
And what they're finding is thatit can actually induce panic
attacks in the same way thathappened with Sean.
What happens is the alcoholactually changes the level of
serotonin and otherneurotransmitters in the brain
so that it can worsen anxiety.
And the anxiety can last forseveral hours, even up to a day
(43:50):
after drinking.
Because with Sean...
His first anxiety attackhappened during a hangover, and
they actually have somethingcalled hangxiety, which is that
feeling of being on edge after anight of drinking.
You might feel a little paranoidor scared and you can't explain
why.
They call that hangxiety, and itcan make panic attacks more
(44:15):
likely.
In fact, it says about 25% ofpeople with panic disorder
actually have a history ofalcohol dependence.
So this whole cycle of drinkingbecause you're anxious and then
the drinking causes you tobecome more anxious, it becomes
this spiral that just tends toget worse, which looks like
(44:38):
happened with Sean.
So Sean, he was offeredcognitive behavioral therapy,
which I heard is really good tohelp relieve panic attacks.
Can you describe what is acommon CBT or cognitive
behavioral therapy method that'sused for panic attacks?
SPEAKER_01 (44:57):
That is possibly, I don't want to say the best
because I don't want to start ariot.
That is a really great treatmentfor panic disorder.
Specifically for panic disorder,because it helps you figure out
that even if this attack ishappening, it's okay.
You're not necessarily going tohave another attack.
(45:18):
And even if this attack ishappening, you're not going to
die.
Basically, you've got this idea.
You've got this experience thathappens to you.
You're flooded by emotions.
You think, oh my God, I'm goingto die, right?
That thought is not true.
This automatic thought thenleads to feelings.
In this case, they might lead tofeelings of fear and anxiety and
(45:39):
freaking out.
And these feelings lead tobehaviors.
Behaviors like staying in yourroom, avoiding stuff, running
away, whatever it is.
So you've got this circle ofthoughts, feelings, behavior,
and you get stuck in this loop.
And the only way to break thisis to go back to the automatic
thought and reason with it andtake it to court and say, what
(45:59):
evidence do I have for thisthought?
Everything's good.
I'm not going to die.
I'm just experiencing anxiety.
That makes you feel calmer,doesn't it?
And from there, you can takethat into a better behavior,
something like I'm going to takea walk.
And that is really helpful forpanic disorder because if you go
back and you say, I'm perfectlysafe here.
(46:21):
I have my friends.
I have my phone.
I have my dinner, whatever.
Then your next feeling will besafety and your next behavior
will be walking down the streetdoing something happy.
Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_03 (46:31):
Yeah.
I think it's just like anything,you know, whether it's riding a
bike or driving a car, to learnsomething new like that, it's
practice.
SPEAKER_01 (46:41):
Yeah, it's really great.
In fact, I've been through the12-week program for CBT for
panic attacks.
So I have it from both apatient's perspective and I have
it from a clinical perspective.
If you go for a pure CBT course,they send you for about 12
weeks, with the CBTpractitioner.
You get these worksheets to fillout about the thought you were
(47:04):
having, what kind of panic oranxiety it was producing, how
you challenged it.
They give you ways you canchallenge it.
Are you generalizing?
Are you catastrophizing?
And you have to take every oneof your thoughts to trial and
hash it out on the page.
And it's really kind of mindblowing.
And of course they give yourelaxation techniques and
(47:25):
breathing and mindfulness tohelp you in that moment.
But to get down to the bedrockof it and undo some of the
mechanism, they give you theseways to unravel your thoughts.
SPEAKER_03 (47:38):
Yeah, and put a stop to going down this downward
spiral.
SPEAKER_01 (47:43):
Yeah, and it's so important to know in the moment
that it's not interminable,although it certainly feels
interminable.
Panic attack, usually it'll peakat about 10 minutes, come down
at about 30 or 40, but it doesnot last forever.
SPEAKER_03 (47:58):
That's always good to hear.
But when you're in it, it'spretty bad.
Yeah.
Okay.
So we talked a little abouttherapy.
What kind of medications canpeople take for panic attacks?
And what are your thoughts onthat?
SPEAKER_01 (48:13):
This is a subject that people have lots of
opinions on.
You can take medication forpanic disorder.
People take Xanax for panicdisorder.
Like any medications, there areproblems, there are side
effects.
I'm not anti-medication.
I am pro-medication as needed.
I think people are often quickto say, give me the pill, it's
(48:34):
the quickest solution.
However, this is one of thoseyou will get better and longer,
more lasting relief fromsomething like CBT than you will
from a pill.
And pills like Xanax are, infact, Habit forming, coming off
of them can be very difficult.
(48:55):
So you set yourself up with alot of other problems.
You have to put in the work tolearn about yourself and to do
the skills and learn the skills.
But then you have those skillsforever.
It's like you learned a wholenew language to help yourself.
You can apply those CBT skillsto so many things.
OCD, anxiety, depression, eatingdisorders.
(49:16):
If you're really depressed andyou're thinking, I'm so
worthless.
Okay, that's a thought thatyou're having.
But you got to go back andexamine, is that a true thought?
If you can go back to thethought and deal with the
thought and why it's notrational and why it's not true,
then the rest of these dominoeswill fall into place.
And that will make you feelbetter and that will make you
(49:37):
behave better.
So you can apply those CBTskills to so many things.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (49:42):
So Sean's panic attacks then became a panic
disorder and then it escalatedto agoraphobia.
Can you explain like in simpleterms what agoraphobia is and
how it happens?
SPEAKER_01 (49:56):
What happens is if you have a panic disorder and
you are afraid that you're goingto have another panic attack,
you often develop the next step,which is agoraphobia.
You don't want to go outside ofthe house into a crowd or in a
line or in an open space oranywhere.
from where you won't be able toescape if you do have a panic
attack.
SPEAKER_03 (50:16):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (50:17):
So that's like, you have a panic attack, then you
have a panic disorder, and thenyou develop agoraphobia, and if
you don't treat it, it justkeeps escalating.
SPEAKER_03 (50:24):
I see.
SPEAKER_01 (50:25):
And that's why people end up being shut in
their homes, really panicky,because they don't want to go,
oh my god, what if I get on abus, and I have a panic attack
on the bus, and if I'm going todie on the bus, then what
happens?
SPEAKER_03 (50:38):
Yeah, I guess just the whole idea of hiding away
and not being with people, it'sjust a dangerous position to be
in because as humans, we need toconnect.
And when somebody has a mooddisorder, it's important to not
only connect with people andfamily and friends, but also to
(50:58):
connect with people that mightbe going through the same things
you're going through.
Support groups can really assistin so many ways, not just the
connection, but also justhelping With so many different
solutions, it's always good tohear from somebody who's going
through what you're goingthrough, what has worked for
them.
SPEAKER_01 (51:19):
Yeah.
And that commonality is sopowerful because you don't get
that in everyday life.
And when you're dealing with amental illness, you feel like
it's the whole world.
But if you look at the numbers,the rates for bipolar disorder
are not even 1%.
So chances are, unless you'regoing to a group like this, you
(51:39):
don't know anybody in youreveryday life who also has
bipolar disorder.
The odds are pretty unlikely.
So making those connections isjust so invaluable because it
validates your experience ofwhat's going on.
SPEAKER_03 (51:50):
Yes, and if you're looking for a local support
group, visitcheckyourheadpodcast.com where
you'll find contact informationfor NAMI, which is the National
Alliance for Mental Illness, andDBSA, which is the Depression
and Bipolar Support Alliance.
Both of these organizations canhelp you get in touch with free
(52:11):
local support groups.
And for musicians in particular,you can contact Backline or Tour
Support to find additionalmental health resources.
You can find those on ourwebsite at
checkyourheadpodcast.com.
And if you need help in payingfor your treatment, there are
organizations like Sweet ReliefMusicians Fund, a nonprofit
(52:34):
specifically for musicians inneed that can assist in helping
you pay.
A big thank you to our musicalguests, Sean Long of While She
Sleeps and Andrew Vasiliev fromDBSA San Gabriel Valley.
For more information on WhileShe Sleeps, their new album
Sleep Society, and theirupcoming UK tour dates, visit
(52:55):
WhileSheSleeps.com and followthem on their socials at
WhileSheSleeps.
And be sure to stay tuned tohear a clip of their latest
single, Nervous, at the end ofour episode.
For more information on AndreaVasiliev and DBSA San Gabriel
Valley, visit dbsasgv.org orfind them and over 100 other
(53:17):
mental health resources on ourwebsite at
checkyourheadpodcast.com.
So until next time, be brave,ask for help, and be persistent
in finding the mental healththat you need.
SPEAKER_02 (53:31):
All this pain we got Check
SPEAKER_03 (53:59):
Your Head podcast is kindly supported and partnered
with Sweet Relief MusiciansFund, DBSA San Gabriel Valley,
and Thank you for your supportand thank you for listening.
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