*Season 5 NEW!* Jewel: Child Abuse & Shoplifting Addiction Recovery with Therapist Ryan Dusick (Maroon 5) - CHECK YOUR HEAD: Mental Help for Musicians

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
Welcome to the premiere episode of our fifth
season of Check Your Headpodcast, the podcast where
notable musicians and expertsshare their stories and
solutions for mental health andaddiction recovery.
I'm your host, Mari Fong, andtoday I've chosen to spotlight
our partner MTV for MentalHealth Action Day, which is

(00:24):
today, May 15th.
Our mental health action was tocreate and premiere this very
special episode that I'mincredibly excited about.
So I ask you, what action willyou take today and every day to
improve your mental health?
But now to our featured guests.
Today we have a musician who hassold over 30 million albums with

(00:47):
hits like You Were Meant For Meand Standing Still and dropped
her 13th studio album entitledFree Willin' Woman.
She was a winner on the popularshow The Masked Singer, and yes,
today's featured guest issinger-songwriter and mental
health advocate, Jewel.

(01:08):
And in honor of May being MentalHealth Awareness Month, Jewel's
Lullaby Club was announced,which is a special four-week
series inspired by Jewel'siconic album, Lullaby,
originally created to manage herown stress and also to soothe
her son to sleep.
Next, paired with Jewel, is anexpert who was also a touring

(01:29):
musician as a former drummer forMaroon 5, but now he's a
licensed therapist, a speakerand author of the book and
podcast called Harder toBreathe.
Today's expert is Ryan Dusick.
But first, let's hear theever-talented Jewel share her
story.
I

SPEAKER_02 (01:48):
moved out when I was 15.
My dad was abusive.
His dad was abusive, I'm sure.
His dad was abusive.
When I moved out at 15, I knewthat it was a really risky
proposition.
You know, statistically, kidslike me don't make it.
And obviously, I didn't want tofeel like at 15 my life was
over, that my life waspredestined to fail, basically.

(02:11):
I didn't want to be a statistic.
The problem is, how do youchange that?
You know, there was nothingwritten about any of this at the
time.
I was able to see, though, thatAnd this is where writing came
in really handy.
I'd been a strong journaler upto then, and so I thought about
these kinds of things.
But this idea of nature versusnurture, you know, if I received

(02:33):
bad nurture, would I ever get toknow my nature?
The word trauma didn't exist, Idon't think, or if it did, it
certainly wasn't in my realm.
Basically, what I was wonderingis if my trauma has altered my
personality, right?
If it's become this emotional,psychological skin that I
interface with the worldthrough, Could I lift that
psychological skin and get toknow my nature authentically

(02:55):
before it was altered, you know?
So that's kind of what I set offto do.
I realized happiness was a sideeffect.
You couldn't just be happy.
Happiness was the side effect ofthings.
So you actually had to look atmore root causes, behaviors.
I saw that I had a geneticinheritance that might
predispose me to diabetes.
I could also see I had anemotional inheritance.

(03:17):
And it was that language thatwas what I needed to figure out
how to get a new education in.
You know, it's like if you grewup speaking Spanish, if you want
to learn French, you better goto school.
Otherwise, you're going to speakSpanish.
Your emotional language is thesame.
You don't get to just speak anew one.
You have to learn a new one.
And we're talking about millionsof data points of emotionally
relating to the world.

(03:39):
So it was obviously reallydaunting, a daunting thing to
think about.
But it was also really excitingbecause I felt like I had a
mission.
You know, it felt like a worthychallenge and at least a way.
You know, something that made itfeel like, well, maybe if I can
learn how to do this, I won'tjust end up a statistic.
And so that really set me off onmy life's goal.
It's why I wrote the types ofsongs I was writing.

(04:00):
Who Will Save Your Soul was meas a 16-year-old wondering, if I
don't do this, who's gonna?
And how the heck do I do it?
Hands was about being homelessand shoplifting and being a
victim and realizing that what Idid with my hands was up to me.
And what could I do if nobodywas coming for me?
What if I was coming for me?

(04:21):
And what if the buck stoppedwith me?
What if nobody owed me anything?
What was kindness worth?
You know, all my songs werealways just me grappling with
these concepts of is happiness alearnable skill?
And, you know, not knowing whatpanic attacks were.
I started having panic attackswhen I was 15 and I hadn't even
ever heard of one.
I didn't hear of one until I wasin my 30s.

(04:43):
I just was having something, youknow, intense happening to me.
They just happened so often, Istarted to experiment and start
going, does this work?
Does that work?
Does this change the outcome?
Does this make me feel better?
That doesn't make me feelbetter.
Would this make me feel better?
So I started to develop tools.
And that ended up being a secondcareer is what's the weirdest

(05:05):
thing of all this.
Songs ended up being a career,which was a trip at the time.
And now all of these tools thatI developed for myself out of my
experimentation has become anentire job.
It's been wild.

SPEAKER_01 (05:17):
Well, I also love how you kind of done the
research for it on a personalbasis and also that you've
accepted there's trial anderror.
And one thing you mentioned isthe shoplifting.
So I wanted to see and for youto give me examples of some ways

(05:37):
that were unhealthy ways to dealwith pain and now the healthy
ways that you have incorporatedin your life to deal with pain.
We

SPEAKER_02 (05:46):
always pick the pain we can tolerate.
That's what leads to a copingmechanism.
We pick the pain we cantolerate.
Even hitting a child, right?
My dad was hit as a child.
He ended up hitting me.
Rage and even the regret.
He suffered a tense regret,right?
He didn't enjoy hitting us.
He always felt like shitafterwards.

(06:07):
That was a pain he knew how tohandle more than the
vulnerability of the shame thathe felt.
Doesn't make hitting me okay.
but it humanizes it.
It shows you how we make ourchoices and it can help us build
a little bit of compassionaround our choices.
We're always trying our best.
We're always trying the painthat we believe we can survive

(06:28):
the most.
That gives us some kind ofrelief when we're not taught
another way to get relief.
You know, our minds processemotional pain in the same
center that it processesphysical pain.
So your brain cannot tell thedifference between a broken
heart and a broken leg.
It's that psychologically scary.
That's why it's so real, right?
That's why emotional pain is sointense.

(06:51):
It's that same part of ourbrain.
It's as real as a broken leg.
And you can't live withunmitigated pain like that,
right?
So we're trying to find ways inour infinite wisdom and our
infinite brilliance, actually.
Coping mechanisms are amazing.
I call it brilliant resilience.
We find these ways of surviving,of coping.
At some point they quit working,right?
At some point it's a diminishedreturn.

(07:13):
Shoplifting, for example.
I never drank.
I never did drugs.
I was so proud I avoided that.
Ran headlong into stealing.
It's an addiction.
It was just a differentaddiction.
It made me feel powerful.
It made me feel empowered.
It distracted me from my anxietybecause it was so challenging to
steal something and get awaywith it.

(07:34):
It made me feel cared for.
It was the most loving thing Iknew how to do for myself.
I remember stealing Christmaspresents for myself and wrapping
them and putting them under alittle houseplant that I would
decorate.
Obviously, at some point, youstart to realize like, wow, this
is actually a problem.
This isn't something loving.
This isn't something kind.
There's not some faceless, theman.
I didn't think I was hurtinganyone, right?

(07:56):
It was the man.
And, you know, it wasn't untilfor me, I was in San Diego and I
was stealing a dress.
I was shoving it down my pantsand I saw my reflection in the
mirror and it was justunavoidable.
I was a statistic.
My lofty goal of not being astatistic I was homeless and I
was stealing.
Like, I was going to end up injail or dead.

(08:16):
I didn't avoid it.
Even though I avoided somethings, right?
I didn't become a stripper.
I didn't do drugs.
I didn't drink.
Lots of good wins.
But at the end of the day, I wasstill a statistic.
And that's where, again, I justlearned to be really observant
and really curious.
I had remembered a quote when Iwas looking in the mirror with
that dress.
It was attributed to Buddha.

(08:37):
Something like happiness doesn'tdepend on who you are or what
you have.
It depends on what you think.
And so I decided to double downon trying to figure out what I
think.
How is what I'm thinkingaffecting what I'm doing?
And how is what I'm doingaffecting how I'm feeling and
what I'm experiencing?
But I was so, I didn't know theword disassociative, but I was
so disassociative at the time, Icouldn't even figure out a

(08:59):
thought in real time.
I was not present.
It was the opposite of present.
And again, that word didn'texist.
That wasn't even a concept yet.
What I decided to do was watchmy hands because your hands are
the servants of your thought.
If you want to see what you'rethinking, watch what your hands
are doing.
And so I thought I could maybereverse engineer into my
thoughts by chronicling everysingle thing my hands did for

(09:21):
two weeks.
So that's what I did.
I didn't stop stealing.
I didn't even know how to yet.
Like that type of compulsion wasso overwhelming.
Will doesn't work, right?
It's a much deeper thing you'retrying to get at.
But I would just write it down.
I just learned how to observe.
Like I just stole something.
A banana, you know, I justwashed my hands.
I just opened a door.
I had no idea what I was lookingfor, what I was doing.

(09:43):
It was a silly experiment.
But a really interesting sideeffect happened.
My anxiety virtually disappearedfor two weeks of doing that.
That was like a drug trial whereyou're looking to cure glaucoma,
but you grow eyelashes.
You're like, let's call itLatisse.
It was like a weird side effectof an experiment.
And it wasn't a side effect Iexpected.
Why did my anxiety disappear?

(10:05):
It made me so curious.
And so basically what I stumbledonto is mindfulness, right?
I figured out how to beconsciously present because
chronicling in real time what myhands were doing forced me to be
in the moment.
And being in the moment causedmy anxiety to lessen.
And so I started to write thatdown.
Why was that?
What is it that did it?

(10:26):
Can I make it happen again?
What was it about that?
And zeroing in on what it was.
I really learned that fear is athief and it takes the past and
it projects it into a futurethat hasn't happened.
And you were robbed of the onlyopportunity you have to actually
keep yourself safe, right?
I was very occupied with keepingmyself safe.
I was neglected as a child.
I was on my own too young.

(10:47):
Safety was a big issue.
You think you're worrying tokeep yourself safe, but that's
like leaving your house to goprotect it from burglars.
You should probably stay in yourhouse.
Being present is staying in yourhouse, and it makes you less
anxious because you're present.
And so I started realizingthings like the anatomy of
addiction.
I saw this triad.
It was this triangle, like abefore, a during, and an after.

(11:09):
And I realized I couldn't changemy before always, but I could
change my during.
Basically, my response, right?
Stimulus was making me scaredthat I was homeless, and it was
scary.
I responded by stealing, whichmade me feel in control.
My reward was that control, thatfeeling of empowerment.
And so I realized I could startaffecting the middle one, my

(11:30):
behavior.
And so I started replacingstealing with writing.
And I had to will myself, right?
I had to will myself to write.
And it wasn't a quick process.
That's something I really wantpeople to know is if they start
working on habits like this, ifthey look at a pain point, let's
say you're angry, you start justbringing awareness around it.
You might not have awarenesstill after, right?

(11:51):
You went off on your spouse andyou don't notice till after.
You're like, holy F, I did itagain.
I went off on my spouse.
Building awareness takes time.
I often woke up after I stoleand be like, holy shit, I did it
again.
And then I started waking upwith practice during it, but I
couldn't stop.
Then I started to be able tonotice the signs before that I

(12:12):
was urged.
I had an urge to steal, but Istill couldn't stop it.
Changing the behavior was last.
Being able to notice thestimulation, the desire to
steal, and then put a new toolin was the very last thing that
took time to give and get me tothat point.
And writing didn't feel good.
It was so boring.
And I was like, that'sinteresting.

(12:33):
Why doesn't it just feel like areward?
I know I like writing.
So that's a really interestingthing.
Like, why don't I feel rewarded?
And so I really got curious andI started noticing my body felt
differently.
So I started trying to putadjectives to it.
Well, how do I feel when Iwrite?
It was calming.
which actually felt boringbecause I was addicted to

(12:54):
intensity, right?
Trauma isn't intensity.
It gives you an intensityaddiction.
So my neurological system likedintensity.
It liked deregulation.
It liked, you know, thesympathetic nervous system to be
engaged.
When I was in my parasympatheticsystem, it didn't feel fun.
It didn't feel rewarding.
It even felt kind of depressing.

(13:15):
And God forbid it made a feelingcome up, right?
It's the problem with dilatedstates.
But through continuedexperimentation, I realized
there's only two basic states ofbeing.
There's dilated and contracted.
And I realized that every singlethought, feeling, or action
leads you to one of these twostates.
And that dilation is where wecan relax.

(13:36):
It's where we can sleep.
It's where we can unwind.
It's where we can processfeelings.
And so I started journaling.
In part of my notebook, I haddilated.
In the back of the notebook, Ihad contracted.
And then I had subcategories ofthinking, feeling, doing.
So every time I was relaxed, Istarted to write, what was I
thinking, feeling, doing?
Every time I was contracted,tight, anxious, I would write

(13:58):
down thinking, feeling, doing.
At the end of the month, Ibasically had a map of my
neurological systems andthoughts, feelings, and actions
that got me in and out ofneurological systems.
And you can't be in two at once.
When I realized that, I waslike, I can maybe hack my way
out of a contracted state byforcing myself to participate in
off of something on my dilatedlist.

(14:19):
And I remember the first time Igot it to work, I was beginning
to have a panic attack, whichagain, that was months of work
to get to where I could noticeone coming on, much less
intervene.
But I noticed it coming on.
I looked at my list.
I looked at gratitude.
Gratitude is not some light,fluffy thing.
Gratitude should move your wholebody.
It should move you to tears.

(14:40):
It has a weight to it.
It's a heftiness.
So you have to find somethingyou're grateful for that
stimulates your system in thatway.
It can't just be like, hashtaggrateful.
Like, that's not going to workfor you for what I'm talking
about.
So I was trying to findsomething to be grateful for.
I was on the street corner.
I was homeless.
I was feeling very sorry formyself.
I couldn't find a thing to begrateful for, which might have
been part of the problem in thefirst place.

(15:03):
So I became observant andcurious.
That's the best hack into beingpresent.
Just get observant and curiousabout what's happening in your
environment.
And I saw the sunlight filteringthrough these trees and it made
this lacy pattern on me and itwas beautiful.
And it kind of transported me tobeing a kid in Alaska and laying
on the meadows.
And I just suddenly startedthinking about how far I'd come
and how much I'd been through.
And then I was suddenly,shockingly overwhelmed with a

(15:26):
really spontaneous feeling ofgratitude for myself, which was
so unexpected.
I was so proud I hadn't killedmyself.
I was just so proud I wasstanding there on the street
corner.
It moves me to tears right now.
I

SPEAKER_01 (15:39):
was so

SPEAKER_02 (15:39):
proud.
But I didn't give in yet.
I was standing there on a dumbstreet corner thinking about
gratitude because I refused tokill myself.
And I just started weeping withgratitude for myself, which I
didn't like myself a lot at thetime.
And the next thing I knew, Ithink 40 minutes had passed.
I did not have a panic attack.

(16:01):
I managed to subvert a panicattack by forcing myself to
dilate.
So it was experiments like thatthat now is actually what I've
built curriculums around andhelped teach other people.

SPEAKER_01 (16:14):
Well, you mentioned something that I think is so
important that we really don'tdo as much as we should, which
is to give ourselves credit forthe things that we've done and
the things that we've gonethrough and being persistent.
And it seems like you had thisgrit in you that really just
wanted to work through all yoursituations.

(16:34):
Having suicidal thoughts,though, I think can happen when
you're depressed or anxious,especially when you're going
through panic attacks.
And I've never gone throughpanic attacks.
But you've done a great jobexplaining why mindfulness is so
important.
Because I think those words aretossed around, mindfulness and
meditation.
But they're kind of likeethereal thoughts that people

(16:57):
may not understand why that's sohelpful.

SPEAKER_02 (17:00):
Yeah, I think mindfulness gets thrown around
in a way that we don't even knowwhat we're talking about, what
is a definition.
So I have a definition.
I'll trademark it.
No, I'm kidding.
But my definition is consciouslypresent.
Being mindful just means beingconsciously present.
So there's skills to build themuscle of being consciously

(17:22):
present for longer and longerperiods of time.
Meditation builds a muscle.
Literally, it helps you trainyour brain to be consciously
present.
It's just two minutes ofpractice of being here, noticing
your thoughts.
I'm here.
I'm noticing I'm anxious.
I think a lot of people drop outof meditation because they think

(17:43):
they should have no thoughts orthey think that they should feel
good when they're present.
Being present just means you'represent for whatever you're
feeling.
If you're anxious, you're justgoing to be present while you're
anxious.
So it doesn't mean you'refailing.
It just means you showed up andthat's good.
You're building the muscle ofshowing up.
Showing up is the most importantstep to changing.

(18:06):
but it won't change your life.
And that's the thing I thinkpeople aren't talking about
enough in the mindfulnessmovement.
There's a lot of focus onbuilding the muscle of presence,
but not how to put that muscleto work.
Meditation won't change yourlife.
It's not going to get you toeuphoria unless you go live in a
cave and you don't have to dealwith all your triggers and
you're going to live in amonastery.

(18:26):
Maybe then, you know, byremoving your problems and
learning to be present, maybeyou'd have a shot.
That's not us, right?
I live in the real world.
We all live here.
And so we actually have tofigure out how to change.
So the way I describemindfulness is if your body is a
car, your brain is not thedriver.

(18:46):
It's the steering wheel.
But it can be autopilot, right?
If you're not present, you'regoing to be on a neurological
autopilot.
Your brain will drive the carfor you.
But if you can observe you'resad, you're something other than
sad, you're the observer of it.
That's pretty interesting.
Descartes said, I think,therefore I am.
I believe it's I perceive what Ithink, therefore I am.

(19:10):
We're the perceiver.
We're the observer.
Whatever you call the observeris up to you.
But everybody realizes like, oh,I'm noticing my thoughts.
So when you can start to build alittle bit of a gap between your
thoughts and your actions, inthat space is where you can
start to have change.

(19:30):
So I'll use an example.
I'm getting angry and triggeredand I'm angry.
I use presence to notice in realtime.
Oh, I'm really angry and I'mreally upset.
I'm going to pause.
I'm going to stop and I'm goingto observe the situation.
And now in this gap is where Ican insert a new tool.
When we're reactingneurologically on autopilot,

(19:51):
we're going to do the same oldshit we've always done.
So to have a changed outcome,you have to insert a new tool.
And that's where I thinktherapists are really Being
called to get better, frankly.
Talking is not enough.
We need behavioral changes.
We need things that we canpractice to have different
outcomes because nothing's moredepressing than going to a
therapist for a year and notseeing your life change.

(20:14):
Your takeaway is that you'rebroken and the expert can't fix
you.
And that's wildly depressing.
I think that the mental healthcommunity has to do more in
terms of how to be morebehaviorally focused.
And so that's what we do in ourfoundation, all my work, is we
focus on the behavioral tools.
People have to build the muscle,right, of being consciously
present.

(20:35):
But then we have to give themtools of what do you do with
that gap?
Now that you created a pause,can you insert a new tool to get
a new outcome?
Because then it gets exciting.
When you start seeing your lifechange, you're like, this is
hard work, but at least it'sworth it.

SPEAKER_01 (20:46):
Right.
There's a lot of payback, abetter life, more happiness and
contentment with your life.
But it does take work.
And You know, one thing youmentioned was journaling, which
is something that anyone can doto put those feelings on paper.
And also, like you said, to bein the present moment.
And you're talking aboutaddictions, like you're

(21:07):
shoplifting.
And a lot of people havedifferent addictions to try to
soothe the emotion that they'refeeling.
So it's like, what are theseactivities that are healthy,
that can better you, that canalso distract you or soothe
those emotions, but doesn'tcause you to be an alcoholic or
a drug addict or a shoplifter,you know, these things.

(21:27):
And I'm so excited that you'reworking with young people
because that's where it allstarts, right?
I think I'd read that you hadstarted getting anxiety as young
as eight or nine years old.
Can you tell me more about yourJewels Inspiring Children's
Foundation?
Yeah, I think

SPEAKER_02 (21:46):
writing is one of the things we give our kids.
Not every thought and feeling isa fact.
You know, you need to startquestioning, is that thought
true?
Journaling is really helpfulbecause we start to encourage
all of our kids and the adultsthat we consult.
When you get upset and you getreally anxious, the tendency is

(22:07):
to want to disassociate.
We want to remove ourselves froma feeling.
And so we'll distract ourselveswith alcohol or drugs or pills,
or we'll distract ourselves withshopping, shoplifting, social
media, whatever it is.
You actually want to trainyourself to move toward it.
And that's really antitheticalto a lot of people.
What taught me it was anxiety.

(22:29):
I had a lot of anxiety.
That made me think something wasbroken, right?
If I'm having anxious feelings,something must be wrong with me.
One day I just decided to say,well, what would it be like if I
thought that meant something wasright with me?
And it's because I saw a caralarm going off and nobody got
mad at the car alarm.
I mean, it was annoying.

(22:50):
but the car alarm was doing itsjob.
It's doing what it's built todo, warning you that somebody
was breaking in.
What if my anxiety didn't meansomething was wrong with me?
What if it meant something wasright with me?
And what if it meant somebodywas trying to break in?
It's like food poisoning, right?
If you eat bad fish, you'regoing to throw up.
You don't want to eat bad fishagain.
Don't get mad at throwing up.

(23:10):
Get focused on the behavioralchange.
So what if anxiety was the sideeffect of the fact that I was
consuming something that didn'tagree with me.
And it was making me ill, right?
My anxiety was my body's way ofsaying, don't consume that
again.
So if you can start looking atyour anxiety as an ally, not
something to move away from, butsomething to move toward, to get

(23:33):
really curious about, like,thank you.
I literally would sit down,pretend my anxiety was a person.
I would have a conversation withit.
What was I just thinking,feeling, or doing?
Because it didn't agree with me.
If I was supposed to be doingit, it wouldn't make me anxious.
God didn't fuck up that bad.
Like if we have anxiety, theremust be a reason we're capable
of being anxious.

(23:54):
What if 99% of us are engagingin stuff that doesn't actually
agree with us?
We're having thoughts that don'tagree with us, right?
We're hating on ourselves.
We're saying we're ugly.
We're despicable.
We're unlovable.
No kidding.
You get anxious.
You can't consume that thoughtwithout it making you sick.
When we tolerate theintolerable, we get ill.
And so if we can move toward thediscomfort, toward the pain, and

(24:18):
get curious, we can start tohelp it change.
What's in isolation can'tchange.
So as long as we're medicating,as long as we're moving away, as
long as we're distractingourselves, we're not going to
change.
We're just going to suppress,which only works for so long,
right?
It doesn't work.
So you have to train yourself tomove toward, get curious, and
then figure out how to put it inrelationship to something else.

(24:42):
Because through relationship, wechange, right?
So putting my anxiety inrelationship to my curiosity,
helped me transform it.
When I felt vulnerable, insteadof distracting, I would attach
that feeling of vulnerability toconnection, right?
Call a friend who's safe.
Then I could get that feeling tochange.
It wasn't suppression.
It was actually change.

SPEAKER_01 (25:03):
And I think one thing that I got from what you
said is that our emotions dosignal us that something is
wrong.
Although sometimes they can lieto us, right?
With depression and anxiety, butsomething is wrong, either
physically or mentally.
It's signaling you to find outwhat is going on.
And you've done just a wonderfuljob to do that on a personal

(25:24):
level.
You know, the lifestyle of amusician is very different.
Can you think of ways that theindustry can help improve the
conditions for mental health formusicians?

SPEAKER_02 (25:35):
I think that any high performing public facing
job is tremendously stressful.
I think CEOs face a lot of thesame pressures that musicians
do.
Musicians have a particular jobbecause of the travel, you're
sleeping at the wrong times, allof that.
But, you know, I just lost myfriend Tony Hsieh, who was the
CEO of Zappos.
I think CEOs live under aparticular type of pressure,

(25:59):
bottleneck pressure thatcelebrities often do as well and
musicians.
I think that first and foremost,you have to be willing to make
that your number oneresponsibility as the
individual.
You know, the reason when I gotsigned that I said my number one
job was to be a happy person, mynumber two job was to be a
musician, was because I knew Ihad so much emotional trauma and

(26:20):
baggage.
That the odds of me, God forbid,you make someone like me famous,
that's every movie you've everseen about every musician.
And again, I didn't want to bethat statistic.
But it meant making radicalchoices.
You know, it meant at the heightof my fame, I took two years
off.
People were so mad at me.
There was no word like mentalhealth at the time.
There wasn't like, I'm taking amental health break.

(26:40):
Oh my God, the label was upset.
Managers are upset.
But I couldn't psychologicallyhandle the level of fame I
achieved.
And I knew I couldn't.
And so I stopped until I couldfigure out how to do it.
That's just your responsibility.
You know, that's you saying, Icare about my happiness more
than I care about any otherthing.
And every person owes that tothemselves.

(27:02):
All the kids in our foundation,all the adults that I work with.
Until you're willing to saylike, my happiness is the most
important thing.
I am not willing to tolerate theintolerable.
I'm unwilling to compromise mywell-being.
That doesn't mean you get moreprecious.
It means you figure out how tosay no to the things that really
harm you.
And for me, that meant saying noto my job for multiple years.

(27:24):
It meant turning down moneymultiple times.
And so I think we each have tofeel that commitment in our body
individually.
Yeah, I mean, the music businessis just famous for leveraging
basically really ill, vulnerablepeople and keeping them propped
up on the road.
It's inconscionable.
The business does a lot ofinconscionable things.
I think managers and labels,just out of greed, you know, if

(27:47):
there's no other motivation,they should figure out how to
protect their investment.
You know, let's say you sign aband and you pay a million
dollars to sign them, and thenyou invest to another two
million to help them make arecord and tour.
You're at least three to fivemillion in on breaking a new
act, and let's say they becomesuccessful.
Great.
You're maybe starting to makesome money back.

(28:08):
And then think of this personwho had a 20 year career.
It's a lot of income you'regoing to be earning.
If that band kills themselves,it was a really dumb thing,
right?
It was a bad investment.
So if nothing else, out ofgreed, I feel like boards of
companies and record labels andmanagers should start to help
protect their investment.
And it's not by supporting themin their job.

(28:28):
It's actually by supporting themas a human.
What we need is human skills.
You know, if I had a band, Iwould be getting them in therapy
while they're making theirrecord.
And I would make the band doweekly therapy calls because how
many bands break up because thesinger doesn't feel as loved as
their, whatever.
There's personal squabbles thatcause the band to break up.

(28:50):
Not to mention if they'reabusing drugs to try and sleep,
you know, on a tour bus orthings like that.
So I do think that we need tostart thinking of, you know,
sustainable solutions to helpsupport the human.
You know, what can we do tosupport our human force?
It's a really interesting topic.

SPEAKER_01 (29:08):
Yeah, I agree.
And I'm working on that as wellbecause I think there does need
to be some effective change.
Jewel, thank you so much forbeing on the Check Your Head
podcast.
Everything that you've said hasbeen so worthwhile and something
that we can incorporate into ourlives.
Is there anything else that youwant to say about mental health
or about your music?

(29:28):
I have a new album.
called

SPEAKER_02 (29:30):
Freewheeling Woman.
It took me seven years to makethis one.
I wrote 200 songs to get to the12 I like.
And yeah, I think Long WayAround especially is about that.
Sometimes you take the long wayaround.
Sometimes life is full of twistsand turns, but you get there.
And so the record's really sortof a celebration of getting
there.

(29:50):
For me, the album's about anaccumulation of really fighting
to be the type of human I wantedto be.
Because you don't get to choosehow life changes, you just get
to choose how it changes you.
And to be a female in thisindustry, it's not a kind
industry to women, especiallywomen as we age.
And I was really excited towrite a record that I'm really
proud of who I am.
I'm proud of who I am at 47.

(30:10):
I'm proud of my writing.
I'm proud of my singing.
I'm proud of my parenting andtrying.
So I tried to reflect all ofthat in the music.

SPEAKER_01 (30:18):
Well, thank you so much, Jewel.
You are a superhero in thegreatest sense of the word.
And thank you so much for beinginspiring with both your music
and your advocacy.
I really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_02 (30:30):
Thanks.
If anybody's interested in thetools that I've talked about,
you can find several of them ona free mental health website.
It's calledJewelNeverBroken.com.

SPEAKER_01 (30:41):
Yes, and I joined today.
Nice.
Next up, we have licensedmarriage and family therapist
Ryan Dusick, formerly thedrummer for Maroon 5, who'll
speak on Jewel's interview togive his best professional
solutions and insights.
By the way, did I tell you thatCheck Your Head Podcast won a

(31:02):
People's Choice Podcast Award in2024?
With over 20,000 anonymouspodcast listeners voting, we won
our second podcast award, whichmade me feel so good knowing
that we're on the right trackfor doing good in this world.
So a big thank you to all of oursuperhero listeners of the

(31:22):
podcast.
But now, let's hear fromtherapist Ryan Dusick, He'll
share his knowledge and advice.
How can a therapist help tobreak the cycle of abuse for a
client?

SPEAKER_00 (31:36):
Well, it's daunting, but it's not impossible to
overcome or to rewire thosecircuits because it is a
conditioned experience oftrauma.
It's in your nervous system,it's in your body, it's in your
mind.
But once you change yourrelationship with yourself,
which starts withself-compassion, understanding
this wasn't my fault, I was aninnocent victim of abuse and

(32:00):
forgiving yourself for the waysin which you may be taking that
responsibility on.
A lot of times we experienceshame as a result of abuse and
trauma, which for an objectiveperson doesn't make a whole lot
of sense because why wouldsomebody whose fault it wasn't
feel shame for that thing?
But it's a natural outgrowthbecause as a child, we don't

(32:21):
know how to process thesethings.
We internalize them as being ourfault.
And so beginning with thatself-compassion, which develops
into self-love andself-awareness,
self-understanding, we begin togive ourselves the kind of love
and care that maybe we weren'tgiven as a child by our
caregivers.
And that's the work of atherapist.

(32:42):
Just giving unconditionalpositive regard or even love to
a client is the way that theylearn how to do that for
themselves, right?
So that's the starting point.
But then it's also just unwiringthose conditioned responses.
We may have learned you know,unhealthy ways of coping, ways
of trying to deal with the painof that and the shame of that.
And so you have to develop newskills to replace those.

(33:05):
The best way to unlearn an oldbehavior is to learn a new
behavior.
So instead of the ways that wemight be self-destructive or
coping in a way that actuallymakes things worse in the long
run, we learn ways that aregoing to foster that
self-compassion, foster thatself-love, foster calm and
relaxation and tools for livinga life that's gonna be healthier

(33:28):
in the long run and conducive tothe healing that's important to
overcome those traumas.

SPEAKER_01 (33:34):
You said a lot there that I'm really fascinated
about.
One thing was healthy ways toexpress the emotions that we
have.
We all know about addictions,which is something that people
grab onto to cope with thosefeelings.
And then there are healthy wayswith Jewel, she found journaling

(33:56):
to be something that was helpfulfor her.
I'm sure songwriting wasprobably something a lot of
musicians, you know, bent thatway, feel much more comfortable
venting through songwriting andlyrics versus let's say
one-on-one conversations.
So what do you do if you findthat somebody is using something

(34:18):
dangerous?
And in Jewel's case, it wasshoplifting.
What do you suggest as far aschanging those behaviors and
focusing on something that'spositive?

SPEAKER_00 (34:29):
Well, these are conditioned responses to pain,
right?
These are ways that we try tocope.
And of course, if you weren'tgiven the skillset to cope with
pain in a productive way and youfind something that alleviates
the pain immediately, you'regoing to do that again, right?
Whether it's taking a drink ofalcohol or it's a behavior like

(34:53):
shoplifting or sexual behaviorsthat feel good in the moment and
may get you out of theexperience of that shame or
vulnerability or pain, you'regoing to identify that as a way
to cope.
And then you do that more andmore and it becomes a
conditioned response.
Every time you feel the pain,you think about doing that

(35:13):
thing.
You have an urge to do thatthing.
So it's about Unconditioningthat response by conditioning a
new response.
And that's hard to do.
That's really hard to do.
That's why addiction can be sucha difficult thing to overcome
because whenever we have thatpain, we immediately go to that
thing that we think is going tosolve the problem.

(35:35):
We forget that the thing that'ssolving the problem is actually
causing more problems for us inthe long run, because in the
moment, When it's overwhelming,when you have this feeling that
you feel like you can't dealwith, you want something that's
going to get rid of itimmediately.
So it takes time.
It's just like unlearning anyhabit and starting a new habit.
It's repetition and reinstatingthat thing over and over and

(35:59):
over again until it becomes thenew conditioned response.
That's sort of the cognitivebehavioral approach to it is
when you have that thing thatcauses the pain, instead of
going right to the old solution,Replacing that with something
that's going to be more healthyand productive, that may be
meditation, that may bejournaling, that might be going

(36:20):
for a hike, that might becalling a friend, that might be
going to an AA meeting.
Whatever it is that helps you inthat moment, get to the next
moment so that that cravingpasses.
And if you do that enough over amatter of weeks and months,
eventually, just like theoriginal conditioned response,
that thing becomes theconditioned response to the

(36:40):
pain.
But I wish it were that simplefor everyone, but concurrently,
a lot of other things kind ofneed to be happening, which is
why it's so difficult.
The importance of community,support, having the feeling that
you're not alone in this,working on the shame, because
these are unconscious thingsthat happen.
It's not all just cognitive,right?
So that's why therapy can be soimportant and helpful, is

(37:02):
working through the source ofthe pain and understanding your
relationship to it.
giving yourself thatself-compassion, not just
dealing with the behavioralaspect of it and the cognitive
aspect of it, but thedeep-rooted, unconscious,
emotional, and somatic elementsof it, how you experience it in
your body, how you deal withthose feelings in your body, how
you sit with those feelings andprocess them.

(37:24):
That's what therapy is for.
That's what meditation is for,you know, getting a better
understanding and then learningnew skills to cope.
That's why those things all areimportant.
You have to look at it sort ofholistically.
Every element is a part of theexperience.
The thoughts, the feelings, thebehaviors, the relationships are
patterns in the way that we goabout living our lives.

SPEAKER_01 (37:48):
Yeah, you know, I feel like a lot of people look
at therapy or counseling assomebody talking and the other
person listening.

SPEAKER_00 (37:57):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (37:59):
And I think that we need to look at therapy more as
you are the leader with allthese tools and you can guide us
to learn different skills sothat we can live better lives,
healthier lives.
Joel was talking about beingdisassociated from her feelings.

(38:20):
And to me, it sort of explains,let's say, being mindful versus
being on autopilot.
And I find a lot of people justautomatically do what they know
instead of consciously thinking,you know, is there a better way?
I mean, how would you explainbeing dissociated from your
feelings?

SPEAKER_00 (38:41):
Well, dissociation is a clinical term that refers
to the experience of beingdisconnected either from
yourself or from yoursurroundings.
I think that we can all relateto dissociation For instance, as
daydreaming, which is a way inwhich we might not be present,

(39:02):
might not be connected to oursurroundings.
We might be just sort offantasizing about something else
in our mind.
That's one way that we could bedisconnected from our
surroundings or from being inour bodies in the present.
Most of us have had theexperience at one point of
driving and you get to yourdestination and you think to
yourself, I don't rememberdriving for the last 20 minutes,

(39:22):
right?
That's essentially dissociation.
It shows that your body can goon autopilot and can function
fine without your thoughts beingconnected, your perceptions
being connected to what's goingon and what is the task that
it's trying to complete.
So that just shows you that wehave the ability to be somewhere

(39:42):
else in our mind and our bodystill can react and respond to
things in real time to what'sgoing on.
Now that's functional, right?
That's a way in which wefunction well while
dissociating.
However, on the other end of thespectrum, we do hear about
dissociative identity disorder,which is a condition in which
people create sort of alteregos, different parts of

(40:03):
themselves that take over atdifferent times.
That's a way of escaping thepain of a trauma that was
intolerable.
So you just literally step intoa whole other identity that's
not feeling that pain, that'shaving a different experience
completely.
You learn that very early onbecause a child has a very
active fantasy world.

(40:23):
in their mind.
That's the way they cope withthe world by creating fantasies
in their imagination.
So there's a whole spectrum inbetween.
And most of us to a certainextent can relate to the idea of
checking out at certain times orjust being, as you said, on
autopilot.
So how does that relate to whatJewel is describing and what
people are experiencing whenthey go into therapy?

(40:45):
A lot of us are disconnectedfrom our feelings.
We may bury our feelings.
We might compartmentalize them.
We just don't really experiencethem fully.
because we at least perceivethem to be too painful to deal
with.
So rather not deal with it, justkind of push them down, right?
The other way in which a lot ofpeople experience dissociation
is disconnect from their bodies.

(41:06):
If you had physical or sexualtrauma, your body might not be a
safe place to exist.
To feel things deeply in yourbody is scary because it's
connected to something scary andpainful.
Or just confusing, you know,there might be good feelings
that go along with that andthat's not tolerable because it
brings up shame or otherfeelings that are really

(41:27):
uncomfortable associated withthat trauma.
So whatever the experience mayhave been, whatever the pain
that we're experiencingemotionally or psychologically,
the work is growing thetolerance to sit with those
feelings more presently, toactually experience our emotions
and process them.
to actually be present with oursurroundings and to actually be

(41:48):
present in our bodies and tofeel that fully.
Because whatever is occurring inthis present moment, it's
usually not as scary as whathappened that created that
disconnect in the first place,right?
Just perceiving things as theyare, accepting the present
moment for what it is, learningto tolerate just the feeling of
breathing and paying attentionto our breath, learning to

(42:11):
tolerate the fact that I'msitting in a room All that I
hear is the sound of the airconditioner or the sound of cars
driving by in the background.
And that's it.
That's all that's happening inthis moment.
And now I can tell and actuallybe present that that's all
that's happening.
There's no bad man in the roomwith me that's going to get me.
So it's a learned and developedskill, but it takes practice.

(42:33):
You're going to be more presentthroughout your day the more you
do it.

SPEAKER_01 (42:38):
Right.
So it's almost like going to thegym, doing something
consistently in preparation forthose moments that are
stressful, that areoverwhelming, having that as
something that you can do on adaily basis as part of your
routine.
One thing that you mentioned,which I thought was interesting,
is that people, I mean, aschildren, you go into a fantasy

(42:59):
world when things are toooverwhelming.
Let's say when we talk aboutdrugs and alcohol, you have that
feeling, whatever it is that youdon't like, and you immediately
grab something to make you feelbetter.
And if it's drugs and alcohol,you can go so down that road

(43:20):
that you do become a differentperson and you don't remember
the things that you've said andthat you've done.
And I think it's even harder inthe music industry because I'm
finding that, you know, having adrink, doing drugs, that might
be more acceptable than let'ssay I'm going to talk to my

(43:42):
therapist, right?
Or I'm going to take myantidepressant today, you know?
And it always kind of baffled methat people have no problem,
let's say, doing Coke or heroinor whatever it is, even weed on
a consistent basis.
And they're like, oh my God, I'mnot going to take this

(44:03):
medication.
This medication that's beentried and studied and is shown
to be effective for this amountof people.
I would rather just do thiscoke, which we all know can take
you down a bad road.
What are some things that couldbe changed in the music industry
with that whole idea?
Well,

SPEAKER_00 (44:23):
I think that things are starting to change,
certainly from where it was 20years ago when I was on the
road.
There was no public dialogueabout mental health and how to
cope with things in a healthyway.
And even then, it was probablybetter than it was 20 years
before that.
I mean, I think in the 70s and80s, the idea was that if you're

(44:45):
not strung out on cocaine orheroin, you're not doing your
job as a rock star.
That was the expectation thatpeople were going to be pretty
messed up.
At least when I was doing it 20years ago, the people that I saw
that were having a lot ofsuccess had figured out how to
be relatively healthy andsustainable in the way they were
going about their careers, thepeople that were at the highest

(45:07):
level.
But I think that a lot haschanged for the better in terms
of the dialogue that we have andthe resources that are available
that weren't at that time.
It's no different than the restof our culture.
A lot of times we think, ah, youjust need to blow off some
steam, go out on the weekend, gohave some beers, go do something
crazy, and then you'll be readyon Monday morning again.

(45:30):
Doesn't always work that way.
Sometimes that's fine for somepeople, as long as it's within
the range of a healthy lifestyleand it's just having a little
fun and letting some of thestress of your life out.
But that's not a sustainable wayof dealing with deep seated pain
or heavy stress in your life.
And for performers and artists,those two things oftentimes go

(45:52):
hand in hand with getting to theplace of success because art
often comes from pain.
You know, there's a reason whywhy people reach for expression
when they've had trauma.
And it's a very healthy way ofcoping with something that is
overwhelming.
And so, you know, pain cancreate good art.

(46:12):
I don't think that you need tostay in that pain forever in
order to continue to make goodart.
I think actually quite thecontrary.
To be sustainable in what you doas an artist, at a certain
point, you need to develophealthier coping skills and
start to heal and begin to findways to overcome the traumas of
the past.
And so if you're essentially outthere just doing drugs and

(46:36):
drinking and then writing songsand singing them, you know, you
have one good outlet andprobably three or four bad ones
that are better.
I'm not knocking anyone fordoing that.
I did the same thing.
I'm just saying if you developthat self-compassion that I
talked about earlier, you'reactually not helping yourself or
being compassionate by puttingmore stress on yourself.

(46:58):
You might feel better in amoment, but the next day you're
actually more anxious and youhave more shame.
You're more depressed.
And so the cycle just continuesand continues to get worse.
I think that young peopleentering the business today are
hearing a lot more messagesaround mental health, how
important it is, what you can doto foster and sustain good

(47:22):
mental health.
And to value yourself and valuea healthy lifestyle, that being
a performer or an artist is notsynonymous with being fucked up.
Those two things don't have togo hand in hand.
They do for some good reason.
And there is a permissivenessabout that lifestyle oftentimes

(47:43):
where it is insidious.
It's like, how many jobs do youshow up to every night?
And somebody is like, hey, youwant to do a shot?
It's a little different in thatregard, but it doesn't have to
be that way.
And I liken it to performingevery night is like being a
professional athlete.
You know, it's essentially thesame.
You're asking a lot of yourbody, of your mind, of your

(48:04):
emotions, because you're havingto get up there and bare your
soul when you sing a song andperform in that way.
So in terms of the lifestyle, interms of behavior, it's
challenging on yourrelationships.
It's challenging to everyelement of your being.
And so you really have to becompassionate for yourself and
understand that we all havelimits.
We're testing them daily whenyou're living that lifestyle.

(48:24):
And so the onus is on me to bereally loving towards myself and
give myself the things I need inorder to be healthy and to live
this life in a sustainable way.

SPEAKER_01 (48:36):
You know, one thing that Joel mentioned, just going
back into ways that we can ventour emotions, she would use
shoplifting.
She said she felt that sense ofcontrol.
You know, she was able to getsomething for herself.
She felt empowered.
There's a rush that could happenwhen you do these things.

(48:56):
And I'm trying to think ofhealthy ways that people could
feel that rush, but have it bepositive and productive.
The one thing that I'm trying toestablish and do myself because
I talk about it is to kind ofhave a wolf pack where it's
family and friends that youtrust.

(49:17):
And when you come across adifficult emotion, you know,
anger or sadness, whatever itcould be, you call that person.
And they know that, you know,when you call, it's because they
need to vent or they need, youknow, that emotional support.
And I find that it works for me.
It's just getting people on thephone because people are not

(49:39):
used to talking on the phone asmuch as they were before.
And now everybody texts.
But what do you think about thatidea, let's say, of a wolf pack
or like a mentor?
But I feel like one is notenough.
I feel like a pack, maybe likefour or five people might be
good.

SPEAKER_00 (49:59):
Yeah, well, what you're describing is essentially
the model of a lot of supportgroups and why they exist and
why they're helpful.
My sobriety began with rehab,and that's a very intense
experience of that, where youhave a lot of people in one
place together.
going through early recoverytogether.
And ideally, what I experiencedwas that sense of community that

(50:20):
you're describing, where youreally are supportive of one
another.
You have people around you whoare going to be there when
you're having a moment of realinsecurity, anxiety, depression,
and you have people to sharethat with and that will give you
support.
And that, you know, look, youcan't be in rehab forever.
That's a good experience to havefor a month or two.

(50:41):
But there's a reason why supportgroups exist like the 12 Steps,
AA, NA, SLAW, Sex and LoveAddiction Anonymous, many
different forms of recovery.
But that's one essentialelement.
The reason why that's a part ofall of the different kinds of
recovery is that community is soimportant.
That sense of having peoplearound you that you know can

(51:02):
understand what you're goingthrough, that will at the very
least give you some empathy,compassion, and support.
Or maybe even give you someadvice that's going to be
helpful because they understandit in a way that nobody else in
your life will.
Like if you, if you are the oneperson in your family that had
an addiction to opioids andyou're having a craving for

(51:23):
opioids, you know, and you callyour cousin who has no
experience or understanding ofthat, they might not have the
right reaction.
They might have judgment.
They might have, understandably,that's not a knock on them.
They don't have any personalexperience with it.
They may not have the educationof what addiction to a certain
substance looks like.
So the relationship that youhave specifically with people in

(51:44):
the community of recovery, thoseare very important relationships
that are different sometimesthan the ones with your loved
ones who may not have the sameexperience.
And there's a reason why they'responsors.
You described some kind of coachor some kind of mentor.
And that's their only role inyour life.
They're not your father.
They're not your therapist.
They're not your brother orsister.

(52:04):
There's somebody whospecifically has worked this
program before and are nowworking it with you as a way
that they stay sober and helpyou get and stay sober.
And it just is that act ofservice that is so important to
that stage of recovery.
But I think it does exist beyondthe walls of AA, the 12 step or

(52:25):
other support groups.
Because you described havingfour or five friends that are
kind of a wolf pack.
I had that in my early recoverywhere I met people in different
environments, whether it was inrehab or in AA meetings or
otherwise, but we becamefriends.
And then we made plans to go onhikes together, you know, and
we'd go on hikes and talk aboutsometimes recovery related,

(52:46):
sometimes totally unrelatedthings, you know, just about
life and about where we're atand where we're going.
But we had that sharedfamiliarity of the experience of
addiction that bonded us andallowed us to feel and know, if
I'm having a rough day, I cantalk to this person and they're
going to understand.
And that's a really importantthing to feel because a lot of

(53:08):
times in addiction, whatever theform of addiction that you may
have, and a lot of mental healthdisorders as well, it's very
isolating.
You know, the overwhelmingfeeling is that I'm alone in
this and nobody will understandwhat I'm experiencing.
And some of that is reality.
But some of it is just theinsidious nature of the disease
where you become more and moreisolated over time and start

(53:31):
turning to a substance more andmore or a behavior more and more
to try to get our needs met tothe exclusion of the important
relationships in our lives.
So, yeah, I mean, overcomingthat requires stepping back into
the world, stepping back intolife and fostering
relationships.
And that may mean family.
It may take some time to mendsome of those relationships.

(53:54):
Can't always expect that thedamage and the wreckage that's
been done in your addiction isgoing to be fixed immediately.
Sometimes it takes years forloved ones to forgive if they
ever do, depending on the levelof dysfunction and things you've
had in your life in the timethat you were addicted.
But we can choose new family aswell.

(54:15):
We can find new support.
We can find new community.
It's not a lifetime sentence.
The wreckage of our past doesnot define our future.
There's always a way to fosternew connection and new meaning
in our lives.
There's no one way.
There's no one road toaccomplish and achieve all the
things that are necessary to behealthy and happy and thriving.

(54:36):
We all need the same things.
We need the acceptance, thefirst step of being humbled and
recognizing that our way ofdoing things has not been
working.
We all need to find connectionand purpose in our lives.
And a lot of times thatconnection comes through
community.
We all need a lot of things thatare offered in some of those
support groups, but it's not theonly way.
There's a lot of different roadsthat lead to happiness and

(54:59):
fulfillment.

SPEAKER_01 (55:00):
A big thank you to our musical guest, Jewel, and
our mental health expert, RyanDusick.
For more information on Jewel,visit JewelJK.com where you'll
find information on Jewel'sLullaby Club in partnership with
InspiringChildrensFoundation.organd also visit
JewelNeverBroken.com For mentalhealth fitness tools, education,

(55:23):
and more, and for information onRyan Dusick as a therapist,
coach, speaker, and author ofthe book and podcast, Harder to
Breathe, visit ryandusick.com.
And on checkyourheadpodcast.com,you'll find the largest online
list of free and affordablemental health and addiction
recovery solutions, along witheverything you've ever wanted to

(55:46):
know about the Check Your Headpodcast.
So until next time, be brave,ask for help, and be persistent
in finding the mental health andaddiction recovery you need.
Check Your Head Podcast iskindly supported and partnered
with Sweet Relief MusiciansFund, DBSA San Gabriel Valley,
Earshot Media, and Lemon TreeStudios in Los Angeles.

(56:10):
Visit checkyourheadpodcast.comwhere we have over 100 solutions
for mental health and addictionrecovery.
Thank you for your support, andthank you for listening.

UNKNOWN (56:41):
Music

All Episodes

Season 5 NEW! Jewel: Child Abuse & Shoplifting Addiction Recovery with Therapist Ryan Dusick (Maroon 5)

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}*Season 5 NEW!* Jewel: Child Abuse & Shoplifting Addiction Recovery with Therapist Ryan Dusick (Maroon 5)