CHECK YOUR HEAD Podcast "Reboot" of The Lumineers (Wesley Schultz) & Kerry Abernathy (Therapist & Addiction Specialist) speaking on Alcoholism & Mood Disorders Affecting Families for Alcohol Awareness Month, April 2025.
Mari Fong interviews Wesley Schultz of The Lumineers with Kerri Abernathy, Marriage & Family Therapist and Addiction Specialist. Schultz shares how a family member's severe alcoholism and mood disorders affect him and his wife and the lives of other family members. The muse for The Lumineers's song "Gloria," this woman was sent to the ER 99 times in one year due to her alcoholism. Finding help with an addiction specialist and creating healthy boundaries for your own mental health. Listen to The Lumineers's single "Brightside" off their new album of the same name.
Next, we have Marriage & Family Therapist and Addiction Specialist Kerri Abernathy who shares her own experience as a recovering alcoholic, and her professional advice what you can do to protect yourself from the alcoholic's ongoing drama. How to help the addict while also helping yourself, and the importance of the alcoholic experiencing the harsh consequences of addiction.
“Be brave, ask for help, and be persistent in finding the mental help that you need.” For free and affordable solutions for mental health and addiction recovery, visit: http://checkyourheadpodcast.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
Welcome to the Check Your Head podcast, the podcast
where notable musicians andexperts share their stories and
solutions for mental health andwellness.
I'm your host, Mari Fong, amusic journalist and life coach
for musicians.
And today I'm starting withdifficulties and challenges that
I'm going through, and that manyof you may also be experiencing.
(00:24):
So last week, I had a loved onetest positive for COVID, where
we both had to quarantine athome.
It was a scary, stressful timefor both of us, feeling
overwhelmed with the worry ofCOVID, being physically
separated and feeling sad aboutit, and the struggle to even do
simple chores like making dinneror doing laundry.
During this time, we also gotour bikes stolen, biking being
(00:48):
one of the few exercises thatmade me feel good during this
pandemic.
Then my computer crashed, soit's been a tough week, and
although I'm really thankful forso many things in my life, If
anyone can relate to thisstress, wants to vent, or has
words of encouragement, send mean email at checkyourheadpodcast
at gmail.com.
(01:09):
Even if you just write, Hi Mari,please know that your words
would brighten my day.
Now to our featured guests.
Today we have the lead singerand songwriter of a band that's
been hitting singles out of thepark since 2012, with six of
their songs ranking number oneon the Billboard charts,
including Jorge, Ophelia, andGloria, with their latest single
(01:31):
Bright Side also hitting numberone.
Today I'm excited to have WesleySchultz of the Lumineers share
his solutions for living andcaring for a loved one with
alcoholism and mental healthissues, this woman actually
being the muse behind their songGloria.
I'll also play a clip of theirnew single Bright Side from the
(01:52):
Lumineers' fourth studio albumof the same name, dropped on
January 14, 2022.
Next, we have marriage andfamily therapist and addiction
specialist, Keri Abernathy,speak on how alcoholism can have
a ripple effect among families,how to help a loved one with an
addiction, while also mentallysaving yourself.
(02:13):
Keri also has a uniqueperspective, being both a
therapist and a recoveringalcoholic, and will give us her
professional and real-worldadvice and guidance.
But first, let's hear WesleySchultz of the Lumineers share
his story.
First of all, I want tocongratulate you on Bright Side.
You also dropped Vignettes,which dropped in 2020.
(02:36):
But we're actually going to goback to the themes of your album
Three, which was dropped late2019, which dealt with mental
health, addiction, andalcoholism.
But thank you so much for that,because that was such an open,
honest, very vulnerable albumwith its lyrics and its focus.
SPEAKER_00 (02:58):
Oh, thanks.
Yeah, it was cathartic and itwas a draining experience, but
it had this life of its own onceit got put out into the world.
That is the album three wherewe've met so many people in the
last 10 years touring as theLumineers, but that was the most
immediately intimateconversations I've ever had with
complete strangers where youfelt like you knew them because
(03:20):
of the confessional side ofthings or even just the honesty
side.
it's a 360-degree view ofemotion around it.
It's not just saying totallysympathetic towards one side or
the other, but it's trying toexpress how complicated the
whole deal is for everybodyinvolved.
Like throwing a stone in thewater, there's a ripple effect
(03:40):
that everyone feels.
SPEAKER_01 (03:42):
Right, and also that it's not necessarily a story
that has a beginning, middle, oran end.
It goes in so many differentdirections.
But I also think that albumskind of represent...
the chapter that we're goingthrough in our lives.
And it sounded like these lyricscame out during this time in
(04:03):
your life.
Can you kind of describe whatwas on your mind that inspired
this whole theme?
SPEAKER_00 (04:10):
So my wife, we've been together since 2009.
And ever since I've known her,her mother's been a severe
alcoholic.
And so many things about thatimpacted our own relationship, I
began to appreciate how naive Iwas to solve problems relative
(04:33):
to addiction.
Like I thought you could justcome in and say X, Y, and Z, and
that's what they're not doing.
And that's why it's not fixed.
And I'm kind of wired to see aproblem and try to fix it.
And that's not helpful incertain situations.
So my wife has a ton of storiesthat she had told me.
And then we had shared storiesonce we got together.
(04:54):
You know, she had taken hercollege tuition that her dad had
left her to spend on hereducation and she spent that on
her mom's rehab.
And that was a number of times.
You know, you'd get these callsin the middle of the night since
we've been together and it wouldbe your mom's in jail or your
mom's in detox, your mom'sescaped rehab or whatever the
thing was, it left you feeling abit haunted.
(05:16):
You know, this person thatyou're supposed to love is sort
of haunting you and causing youto live in almost this survival
mode versus being present.
You're sort of likeexistentially thinking about
this a lot.
And so I started to see that andit started dominating my
(05:36):
thoughts and it began coming outin the writing.
I wanted to get that out of mebecause I felt the best thing I
can do is try to tell my sideand also maybe a bit of
compassion towards her side inwriting these songs.
You know, a lot of rock stars,the first thing they do when
they get a little bit of moneyis they buy their mom a house.
(05:57):
So I bought my mom a house and Ibought her mom a house.
And it was a small house rightoutside of town in Fort Collins.
We thought that was going to begreat.
She could walk to town.
It'll get her exercising.
It'll get her community.
And instead, it led to her beingseverely isolated.
You know, you can order alcoholfor delivery.
(06:18):
You can order food delivered.
And so all she ended up doingwas stacking up pizza boxes and
she could drink a gallon ofTito's in a single day.
And that's what she was doing.
So we realized we had made amistake and eventually had to
evict her out of the house.
And then she went on the run andbecame homeless, got in jail in
(06:38):
different states.
It's been a long haul.
And finally, my wife and herbrother got guardianship over
her.
She suffers from dementia andalso severe alcoholism.
And they were able to find ahome for her that can actually
meet some of those needs andhelp get her off of drinking
mostly.
So that's a relief because wedon't have this person that
(07:00):
we're so worried about all thetime in harm's way out on the
streets and worse.
In a single year, we were toldthat she visited the ER 99
times, that she was drinkingherself into such a state that
she was being brought in.
So I couldn't get out of myhead.
But after having conversationswith my wife about it, she said,
(07:22):
well, you're a part of thisfamily and it's been 10 years
and you have every right toexpress this if you want and you
have my blessing.
And so I'd check in with her andI'd show her songs, but it was a
tricky and still is a trickything.
And so sometimes the outsidercan see things a little more
clearly or objectively becausethey're not codependent as much
or they're not thinking in thesame way that it can feel so
(07:44):
hopeless when you're in thatcycle with a family member.
And it feels unmovable andunchangeable.
SPEAKER_01 (07:51):
Well, you know, one thing you mentioned is your wife
having to grow up in anatmosphere where alcoholism was
part of that.
How has that affected her andher mental health?
Because I know sometimes whenthat happens, the daughter can
feel like the mother.
SPEAKER_00 (08:07):
Yeah, that's funny you say that because I've never,
we just had celebrated Christmastogether with her family and
she's sort of the matriarch bydefault.
She has three brothers, oneolder, two younger, and she was
the mom in a lot of ways.
When there would be an occasionlike Christmas, she'd be racking
up credit card debt so thateveryone had a present because
(08:30):
she felt so bad for her brothersand she knew that no one was
going to step up in that way.
And she still does it, and itcauses a lot of tension because
we'll go out to dinner and shewants to take care of them so
much because she feels bad thatthere wasn't a mom I've seen
that, and I've tried to supporther in that, and I've also tried
to question it and challenge itin a loving way.
(08:52):
An example would be like, hey, Ithink your brothers want to help
pay for this meal, or sometimesthey want to treat us, but
there's a protectiveness thatshe feels about them that I
can't exactly relate to with mytwo siblings, where we weren't
raised in that environment, soit's abnormal to me.
It's just foreign to me to seethat.
My brother can take care ofhimself.
(09:12):
If he wants to buy dinner, he'llbuy dinner, I'll buy dinner, and
And that's just not how it is inher mind.
And I think it comes from abeautiful place.
But it also comes from a sadplace for me where she put two
and two together and was like,well, we're not going to have
presents under the tree if it'sup to mom.
Because she's busy not knowingwhat day of the week it is.
She's blitzed out of her mind asa habit.
SPEAKER_01 (09:34):
Sounds like she took on the mother role.
But I'm wondering, as herpartner, there's got to be
somebody to take care of her.
Do you find that she's having aharder time accepting help from
someone like yourself or evenwith the situation?
SPEAKER_00 (09:49):
Yeah, I mean, I think there's an independent
streak in her that was forgedout of that.
That self-reliance became anidentity and sometimes gets in
the way of accepting lovebecause you don't believe that
you're worthy of it because thisvery pivotal person in your
life.
Honestly, I felt that too.
(10:10):
I think we all struggle withworthiness at times.
You know, she's a mother now andwe tried to conceive for like
four years and then we werelike, maybe we just can't have
kids.
And then we were lucky enough tobe able to do IVF and that
worked.
And when they do it, they allowyou, if you want, to choose
whether you want to have a boyor a girl.
And she said, I want to have aboy first.
(10:33):
So our son was picked first.
And the reason she did that isbecause she had such a hard
relationship with her mom thatshe was scared of how it would
go if that was her first rodeowith our first kid was going to
be a girl.
So she went with the boy.
And that just shows you howintertwined it is in her head
(10:54):
with how hard of a relationshipthat was.
I think another part of it wasthat she's always reading the
room.
She was forced to understand andread people because that was how
she survived.
She could tell mom had beendrinking or there was going to
be a blowout, whatever.
She had to develop that spideysense way, way earlier than a
(11:15):
typical kid would.
So she's highly self-aware,almost to a point where she
really wants to make sureeverybody's okay.
I'm more like, okay, if I pisssomeone off, it doesn't really
matter to me.
Because I came from a housewhere you were allowed to
irritate someone.
It wasn't the other world.
And I didn't have to readeverybody that closely.
She's always the person who's,if there's someone who looks
(11:38):
uncomfortable at a party, she'strying to make them feel okay.
Because that's what she did allgrowing up.
Her mom was really sad and sheknew it.
And she was always trying tocheer her up and do different
things to make your parent feelhappy when that's usually the
roles reversed.
Usually it's the parent isdoting on the kid.
SPEAKER_01 (11:57):
Well, one thing you mentioned is her trying to make
her mom feel happy.
Oftentimes with addiction, thereare mental health issues or
traumas that drive someone todrink.
Was she or you ever able to getto the bottom of what it was
that was driving her to drink?
SPEAKER_00 (12:15):
No, I mean, we've asked her siblings, some of
them, and they don't seem toknow.
It's not entirely clear.
This is strange to say, but theonly time I've ever talked to
her and felt like I got to knowher was when she had drank a bit
and called us.
And all her walls were gone, andshe was playful, and she felt
like herself.
(12:35):
And it was almost like hernormal...
sober behavior was filled withbarriers and walls and armor
covering up something that shedidn't want us to see.
And then that one time when shecalled us, it sounds like I
shouldn't be saying this orsomething, but it was a
beautiful thing to at least seeher once and be like, that's
who's inside.
(12:56):
That's that like innocent,happy, curious person.
And she was denying us theability to love her that way or
show love.
It was very uncomfortable forher.
to be loved.
I don't know where that comesfrom.
That's a really sad thing thatsomeone feels they avoid that
instinctually.
(13:16):
They can't trust it, even withyour own kid.
We did ask her siblings.
It's a big family.
She was one of seven.
It's a lot of kids.
And I'm just not sure whathappened along the way.
But I would imagine somethinghappened to make her have these
types of defenses up and maybeusing alcohol to numb some sort
of trauma or pain.
(13:37):
became a habit.
SPEAKER_01 (13:38):
Well, you know, one thing that was described through
the music videos of the albumThree was the intergenerational
effects of alcoholism andaddiction that could go through
families.
Was this seen throughout herfamily?
Did it affect other members ofthe family with the addiction?
SPEAKER_00 (13:59):
Yeah, certainly.
I mean, among her and hersiblings, there was different
degrees of people getting outless or more scathed.
There are stories I had heardabout her showing up, passed out
on one of the siblings' lawnwhen he was at college, and he
came outside and she's laying onthe dewy grass in the morning
(14:21):
and her mom's passed out.
I mean, to other people, youdon't think that must be
embarrassing or humiliating.
But to the person whose mom itis, you feel embarrassed and it
reflects on you.
Also with Brandy, My wife andher mom, there was a lot of
really combative and meanlanguage used all the time.
(14:42):
And whenever you thought thingswere going well, she'd say the
meanest things.
It was when she was drinking,because she was drinking almost
all the time.
And then I remember oneChristmas, we were like, if
you're going to come, we boughtone of these breathalyzers, and
you're going to have to blow init.
Because he just held one of thesiblings' babies, and...
I don't want there to be anaccident that you feel bad about
(15:05):
and we feel bad about.
I don't want you to get in adrunk driving accident.
And she refused to come,claiming it was disrespectful.
And it was like, well, I'll doit.
Well, I'll take it.
It's a weird game.
And then I remember we got her adog, thinking that would help
her.
She'd go out for walks.
It was a social dog.
It would keep her company.
Then she'd end up in these detoxsituations for days on end.
(15:27):
And this poor dog was all byitself.
And we had to rehome the dog andshe didn't understand why you
need to do that.
She's like, I gave it enoughfood.
We're like, this dog is going todie.
Like, what are we talking about?
This person can't take care ofthemselves, much less a poor,
innocent dog.
So we actually need to movethis.
And that was like, again, superpainful.
(15:48):
Those little details peopledon't think about.
They think about the big things,but it's those little decisions
like, hey, we have to call yourmom and tell her we're taking
your dog away.
That's like a really awfulthing.
SPEAKER_01 (15:59):
Well, dogs become family members and we love them
like our own.
To me, the first thing I felt isif she wasn't able to take care
of her dog, what was going onwhen she was raising her
children?
It's a hard thing to thinkabout.
But even in the music videos,there were scenes where mom
drank too much.
She passed out and the baby wasthere.
(16:21):
Nobody was there to watch overthe baby.
So you mentioned about the ERvisits, you know, what it's
like.
to have to answer that call.
SPEAKER_00 (16:33):
It's hard when the phone rings.
It's receiving terrible news.
Even if it's not that, suddenlyit's lumped in with that when
it's a certain hour.
I remember getting a call from aWyoming jail and it's like,
she's in jail?
But I also remember going in tosee her at a hospital where she
was getting detoxed and they puther on Ativan to ease her off of
(16:57):
the DTs And when you're underthat, you can be
pre-uninhibited.
You're just truthful.
That's when I found out how muchshe drank because they said, how
much vodka do you consume in aday?
And she's like, I drink a handlelike a gallon.
And we were like, holy shit.
I thought that was for a fewdays.
And she was at that point almost70.
(17:19):
She'd been doing it for 30years.
And it's just mind-blowing howout of control it was but normal
to them.
And I know she gave them love.
I know she made them every mealat school.
She got their blood types so shecould make these immaculate,
healthy food that was matched totheir blood type.
In some ways, she was extremelycaring as a mother.
(17:42):
And then in other ways, it wascompletely off the rails.
She wasn't some evil person.
It was just, it overshadowed allthe good.
And by the time I stepped in thesituation, it was pretty out of
control.
And it was heading only one way.
We just didn't know it.
My dad was a psychologist andthere was a theory at one point
that I forget what psychologistsaid this, but he said, you
(18:05):
know, you give me like 10 kidsand I can make one a prisoner.
I can make one a doctor.
I can make one a soldier.
I can make one a this, that, andthe other.
Like he was all about this ideaof nurture versus nature.
Like it was way more how you'retreated determines who you are
and not intrinsically your DNAor you're wiring, and that was
(18:25):
his philosophy.
And watching how Brandy and hersiblings have turned out, it's
clear that it can't be allnurture because they weren't
raised in an ideal environmentand they're all thriving, doing
amazing stuff.
SPEAKER_01 (18:38):
It's wonderful that they've broken the cycle of that
because I hear about storieslike that and either people go
down the same road or they learnfrom that and say, I never want
to have my children experiencethat.
SPEAKER_00 (18:53):
I've seen it in Brandy where it's way different
from me where if I was Brandy, Ithink I would drink a lot more
because she doesn't pay for itthe way I pay for it.
Her hangovers are nil.
She's like energized in themorning.
Her body and its ability toprocess alcohol, you can kind of
see why if that's how her momfelt often, like pretty
(19:16):
unscathed by a heavy night ofdrinking, it's really fun to get
out of your own head and tomaybe numb the pain Or to just
have fun and be uninhibited.
I'm a musician.
For the first eight years oftouring, it was a lot of late
nights and partying.
And then I eventually got kindof injured.
And I realized that I had tostop doing that.
(19:36):
But again, people simplify it.
If you partied all night and gotup and felt fine the next day,
you don't think you'd partymore?
People aren't actually realizingthat for some people, like my
wife, you see...
how incredibly well their bodyprocesses alcohol.
It's crazy.
And it's like, I could see whythat's a huge temptation.
(19:58):
And then all of a sudden it'severy night.
And it might not even know whenit began.
It was just easier for you thanother people.
And that gave me a level ofsympathy because I never really
put that together.
I was making it more of acaricature or one dimensional.
And there's so many differentthings at play that might lead
you down this eventual path thatyou find yourself on.
(20:20):
To the point where with her mom,she was way happier at the time
being homeless and beingunregulated and allowed to drink
versus being in rehab, beingcontrolled by other people.
It was everything to her, whichis the essence of that addiction
is that you're kind of likedestroying yourself, but you
think this is freedom.
SPEAKER_01 (20:41):
I'm curious because there's so much ongoing drama.
How did you and your wife dealwith the stress of that and the
anxiety of that?
SPEAKER_00 (20:50):
It's a little bits of trauma here and there, or
it's little bits of conflictthat you're trying to deal with
together.
Like early on when we firststarted dating, she would tell
me about these things and thensay, I shouldn't tell you this.
Maybe you won't love me.
Or it felt like filth to her.
Like it reflected exactly on herand no one else.
(21:12):
And so it's funny because it ledto a song where she said, you're
like my dead sea.
You know, like I can't sink.
You hold me up.
We ended up writing a songcalled Dead Sea because I really
liked how it sort of soundedlike an insult.
You're my Dead Sea, but itactually is this beautiful
expression of love.
So I studied psychology.
My dad was a psychologist.
(21:33):
And just writing songs and beinginterested in people, I wanted
to know her.
And I didn't want her toapologize for something that was
completely out of her hands.
And I think maybe thatacceptance of her helped her
accept herself and helped ourrelationship.
Part of it is that I'm not that.
I'm not coming from that exactbackground.
And I think that helps.
(21:54):
If we were both coming fromdysfunction in that way, it can
lead to more and more becauseyou're just used to that.
That's normal to you.
And so when I kept saying, thisis not normal, I think she kind
of knew she needed to hear that.
You know what I mean?
She had never put a boundary upwith her mom ever until we met.
And I said, she just called youthe worst name you could call
(22:16):
someone.
And I think you need to ask forsome space until she can learn
to respect you.
It's up to you.
But I was like, this is kind ofabusive.
And she did.
And went six months withouttalking to her.
And then putting up thoseboundaries, it was hard for me
because you're a little bit onthe sidelines too.
I can say so much, but it's yourlife and it's your mother.
(22:37):
And I don't want to overstep.
I'm just telling you as yourpartner, selfishly, all I really
care about, number one, is you.
I want you to be okay.
And maybe she needed an advocatethere because she's wired to put
her mom's needs before hers justas a feature of growing up in
(22:57):
that world.
SPEAKER_01 (23:00):
I'm sure she relies on you in a lot of different
ways to see things from adifferent perspective.
One thing you mentioned is thatgoing through these experiences,
it's changed your perceptionabout what alcoholism and
addiction is.
What are some of the things thatkind of flipped you on your head
as far as what you believe aboutit now
SPEAKER_00 (23:22):
I think number one was watching someone decide to
be homeless just so they coulddrink that spoke volumes to me
versus anything she could havesaid I just had a naive thing
that we all just had to say theright things as a family and
then she would change like if wesaid we won't see you if you
(23:44):
keep drinking she would stop butshe was like no Drinking is
number one.
And the fact that you're eventelling me this, fuck you.
You don't have the right to tellme.
I'm an adult.
And that blew me away because ifit was my kids, I can't imagine
saying, no, I'm not going to seeyou anymore because I want to do
(24:04):
anything like that.
I kept thinking about standingin the ocean and these waves
just hitting you where it's outof your control at some point.
And it's very hard for us tounderstand because it's not...
an X-rayable broken bone or anMRI can detect this.
Because there's no way tomeasure it in that way, it's
(24:24):
very confusing to know how tohandle it.
The appreciation I had for itwas how far down she got, and it
still controlled her even whenshe was at her lowest.
And that's all I needed to seeto understand I'm dealing with
some force greater than what Ithought.
And then you pit siblingsagainst siblings where you're
like, oh, this one allows me todo what I want to do, so I love
(24:45):
you.
And these other ones don't loveme.
And it just messes with kidsbecause they're wired to like
want to be loved.
We all want to be loved by ourparents.
SPEAKER_01 (24:55):
Right.
That it's become her primarylove, even beyond her family.
That's the hard part is torealize that this thing actually
has a stronger pull on her thanthe love of her family.
I was reading something that yousaid, which I thought was really
insightful.
It said that you believealcoholics drink.
(25:16):
because they're feeling a lot ofemotion and they're scared of
being vulnerable, maybe afraidof their own feelings.
So I'm wondering if the decisionfor an alcoholic, is it really
about whether they're going todrink or not?
Or is it really about whether ornot they're going to face their
emotions and the trauma or not?
SPEAKER_00 (25:38):
Yeah, it seems a burden to live in your own mind,
even on a sober level.
My dad used to say it's hardenough to wake up in your own
head every day, much less wakeup and try to explain that to
someone you're married to.
Like the whole thing's insane.
And it was really great to hearthat.
But just imagine some traumathat gets replayed in your head.
(26:01):
I always felt when we would talkto her, if things got emotional,
you'd see her eyes tear up andshe would laugh or change the
subject.
Everything was so close to thesurface.
Everything was just at asimmering, almost boil.
And you couldn't sense itbecause she had a good poker
face.
But maybe drinking allowed thatto tamp down all those feelings,
(26:25):
like she felt out of control orsomething.
You can feel sympathy forsomeone like that.
So it's like, how do you helpthis person if that's how raw
everything feels?
I think that's a way to attemptto understand someone's plight.
Instead of labeling them, theydon't have a strong enough will,
Or they're weak in some way.
(26:47):
What if this was you?
What if things felt that rawevery day?
Would you want to go throughthat?
Like, can't blame them.
That's probably the closest Ican come to understanding is
like realizing how much pain isjust below the surface.
SPEAKER_01 (27:01):
You're saying maybe the alcohol allows them to push
it down and they suppress it.
But I do believe that when we dothat, that it actually comes out
in very dysfunctional unhealthyways because I believe that
emotions need to have respect.
You need to give them respectand see them and look at them.
(27:22):
That's what it's there for, foryou to look at and not looking
at it.
It almost makes it bigger inyour head.
SPEAKER_00 (27:31):
Like a kettle that is whistling and boiling over.
It's going to come out one wayor the other.
SPEAKER_01 (27:36):
Well, I'm kind of curious because you said your
dad is a clinical psychologistor psychiatrist.
SPEAKER_00 (27:42):
psychologist yet.
SPEAKER_01 (27:43):
Yeah.
From his view, has he given youany advice or suggestion on what
can be done on the mental healthend of your mother-in-law?
SPEAKER_00 (27:55):
Yeah, I wish.
I mean, my dad passed away in07.
So he never got to meet Brandy,unfortunately.
And I never got to meet her dadeither.
He died at 56.
My dad died at 57, really young.
from cancer, respectively.
So I never got to ask him that.
I would love to know some of histhoughts on it.
But he wasn't like an addictionspecialist.
So we met with different peopleto get their takes on it.
(28:19):
And I would say the consensus isalmost reminding me of being a
lifeguard where you can't savesomeone from drowning if you're
drowning yourself.
You have to put up a healthyamount of boundaries to get
through it and survive it.
Otherwise, you're kind of goingto get pulled under.
And that's the cold reality whenit gets that deep is that a lot
(28:40):
of kids who become adults, sonsand daughters of alcoholics,
they need a lot of encouragementon saying it's okay to put up a
boundary because they've almostbeen trained to say, you put my
needs before yours from theparent.
That was just a huge part of itis being in a relationship with
(29:00):
Brandy was saying, hey, just soyou know, this isn't just
affecting you.
You being...
paralyzed by all of this anxietyand sadness and depression, it's
actually affecting us.
And when we have kids, it'sgoing to affect our kids.
That's probably what my dadwould say is you need to save
yourself first.
(29:21):
And it goes against everythingyou've been trained to think.
As a codependent thinker, ifthat's the environment you were
raised in, is to think aboutyourself first because you've
been trained to say that's evil,that's selfish.
writing these songs.
I spent so much time defendingBrandy in my head and trying to
(29:42):
protect her.
And then starting to realizelike, this is what she means
when she says, well, she's stillmy mom.
You know, that's still herdaughter.
And man, sorry.
And it doesn't matter how muchyou think about it and
intellectualize it.
It's still, it's a tragic thing.
(30:02):
And everybody would wish it wasdifferent if they could change
it.
You just keep returning to like,well, why?
And you never have an answer.
So the record, it's allopen-ended.
You're describing what happenedversus offering some solution or
happy ending.
SPEAKER_01 (30:18):
Right.
And just having to persist andsurvive and trying to thrive
while you're going through this.
You know, when somebody is inthe midst of an addiction, they
will do things to protect it.
They'll do things to defendthemselves.
Sometimes they'll use guilt orthey'll lie or they'll put blame
(30:39):
on somebody else for whatthey're doing.
But all those things are reallyhurtful.
What kind of advice would yougive to somebody who's just
starting to go through this withsomebody else?
SPEAKER_00 (30:54):
One of the things that really helped was having a
mediator that was aprofessional.
I should be supportive ofBrandy, but to have a a
psychologist, let's say, or atherapist that specializes in
addiction, that became a healthything for Brandy and I to look
to instead of me saying, here'swhat I think as an amateur
armchair psychologist.
(31:16):
I don't know anything.
Dad inevitably will advocate foryour mutual well-being.
You know what I mean?
And so the first time Brandy metwith her mom with a therapist,
her mom left within a minute.
She didn't like how it was goingand left.
And then Brandy spent the nexthour or two talking to the
therapist and it helped her somuch.
(31:37):
But just having someone therewho knows way more than an
amateur person is really good.
And it don't always stop at thefirst one.
There's a lot of bad dentistsand there's a lot of bad
therapists.
Find one that has the bedsidemanner or the attitude and go
with that because that's goingto be an ally to you and also
(31:57):
your relationship.
So for me, it's just, again,Trying to put up boundaries and
save yourself instead of gettingpulled into it so deep that you
can't even have a relationshipwith anyone else because this
one demands everything from youand also is kind of ruining your
head space and your well-beingemotionally on a daily or weekly
(32:19):
basis.
What saved her and her siblingswas their ability to lean on
each other.
There's four of them, so theygot to call each other when they
needed to sometimes and Seekprofessional help.
It doesn't have to be some dirtysecret.
SPEAKER_01 (32:34):
Right.
You know, I've had musicians saythings like, I'd go to the gym
for my physical health.
I'd go to my therapist for mymental health.
And your wife's speaking to hersiblings and commiserating,
sharing stories.
That's also a form of therapy.
You know, just any way to ventand get it out and be able to
(32:54):
process those emotions.
And I'm sure you both do thatfor each other.
But we've had people talk aboutAlcoholics Anonymous and
Al-Anon, which is like a supportgroup for people that are going
through, you know, living withsomebody who has an addiction.
Was that ever anything that wastried within your family or
(33:16):
considered?
SPEAKER_00 (33:16):
Yeah, we went to Al-Anon a handful of times.
It works for some people in anideal sense.
And then other people, like withmy wife, she's like, I just
don't prefer this group thing.
When I call my siblings and theysay I understand, I know they
understand.
And I just kind of need that.
You should be able to vent topeople and feel heard and seen,
(33:37):
however that can come about.
I just remember her trying itand just not feeling that
connection she wanted.
And I think that's another partof it is that calling your
sibling and saying something badhad happened and here's what
happened.
If you call a friend who's neverbeen through that, they might
(33:58):
try to plant some silver liningor preach to you a little bit or
try to teach you something.
And at the end of the day, youmight just be looking for
someone to go, that reallysucks.
I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_01 (34:10):
With everything that you've seen as far as rehab, and
it sounds like you've tried somany different ways to help your
mother-in-law.
What do you think the medicalprofession or society needs to
do better to assist people withalcoholism?
SPEAKER_00 (34:24):
I think there's a lot of addictions within the
homeless community.
And that's a good place to startto try to help people.
And instead, it's treated as abit of a nuisance.
And it pits neighbors againsthomeless.
It's just a weird, it's reallyinhumane the way it happens.
I think that's a great place tostart.
And then trying to find the rootcause of why you're drinking,
(34:47):
instead of just saying, we'regoing to put you in this rehab,
essentially like a milder formof jail.
And then the minute you get out,you haven't really addressed any
of that.
I know there are other countriesthat approach it differently,
and I'm more successful with it.
I wish it wasn't so commodified,but more treated like it's our
collective problem.
This is not as simple as peopleare making it out to be.
(35:09):
It's not just someone else'sproblem.
SPEAKER_01 (35:11):
Right.
It is a societal problem.
From what you're saying, itsounds like the care and
compassion has not been apriority in this situation as
much as it should be.
taking the time to find out whatis really going on with each
person is not really beinghandled in the right way.
You know, Brightside kind ofchanges the focus.
(35:35):
Maybe you could talk a littlebit about the contrast between 3
and the focus now withBrightside.
SPEAKER_00 (35:40):
Yeah, 3 was a big storytelling arc.
It was an ambitious sort ofconcept record.
And Brightside is like, we wentin there and just kind of
expressed this feeling andexpressed this hope you know we
acknowledge the pain and thesuffering within these songs and
still there's this undeniablehope in us and it's funny
(36:05):
because it happens even with thechildren of addicts or addicts
themselves i'll change i'llchange tomorrow tonight i'm
going to do what i want to dowe're all weirdly optimistic
some might call that denial buti i think we're wired to be
hopeful and that's where we'reat right now not only as a
country, but in the world.
I think we all want to turn thepage and get back to whatever
(36:26):
normal means.
It's just this almost innocence,but you're feeling the world is
at your feet.
It's all there and you have thisswagger and you have this
hopefulness.
And it was reconnecting withthat in a time when it's very
easy to be completely cynicalabout everything.
SPEAKER_01 (36:45):
I felt the excitement that you had with
this album and the songs Thankyou for the authenticity and the
honesty of your lyrics andreally just the joy that you've
brought us with all your music.
But is there anything else thatyou would like to say about
mental health or addiction?
The
SPEAKER_00 (37:01):
last thing I'll say is like the thing that I
realized by making album threethat I didn't quite realize
before was that it's an enormoussocietal taboo in America and a
lot of places in the world, theidea of addiction.
It's something that you cover upand you hide within your family
and you don't talk about unlessyou're totally sure that other
(37:23):
person already knows yoursecret.
And the more we can bring it outinto the light, the less
isolating it is and the less ofa taboo and the less scary it
is.
In the same way that I saw thatin my partner in Brandy where
she was scared I was going toharshly judge her for something
like that.
Don't underestimate how much ofa taboo this all is.
(37:47):
And it's really good that you'rehaving people talk about it and
bringing it out into the lightbecause then it can't be that
boogeyman.
We can't help each other if wedon't know what the hell's going
on.
SPEAKER_01 (38:01):
Next up, we have a mental health expert who
specializes in helping peoplewith addiction and mental health
disorders, working with couplesand families on the conflict
resolution that often comes withit.
Marriage and family therapistand addiction specialist Carrie
Abernathy will share her adviceon how families and loved ones
can help the addict with theirmental health while also making
(38:21):
their own mental health apriority.
Carrie also speaks from personalexperience being a recovering
alcoholic herself.
Now let's hear expert CarrieAbernathy share her knowledge
and advice.
You listened to Wesley of theLumineers share his story about
his mother-in-law.
What are some things that stoodout for you in that story?
(38:43):
That was a big story.
So alcoholism and addiction,it's a spectrum disorder on a
level of 1 to 10.
And his mother-in-law was a veryhigh spectrum person.
alcoholic.
She literally would not stopdrinking.
(39:04):
She couldn't come to eventswithout drinking.
They had tried to give herboundaries about being with each
other and seeing the kids andshe wasn't even trying because
she's so high spectrum.
That's a very specific type ofalcoholism.
You're looking at Possibly someobsessive compulsive stuff when
(39:27):
you get into that high spectrum.
So there's multiple things goingon.
Those are complicated cases.
(39:55):
do you have an issue, just notat that high of a spectrum?
That's correct.
That's something that I talkabout a lot.
So it's a tricky thing.
But what I say to people is likea level one alcoholic would be
somebody who drinks a bottle ofwine a day.
And a level 10 alcoholic issomebody who wakes up with the
shakes.
They're drinking vodka next totheir bed or out of the freezer.
(40:18):
Those look obviously verydifferent.
but your brain is still hijackedby alcoholism in the same way.
So at level one, if you'redrinking a bottle of wine a day,
you can still function.
You can still go to work.
You can still haverelationships.
There's a lot of things that youcan still perform that a level
(40:39):
10 alcoholic wouldn't be able todo.
But what we see at level one isanxiety, depression, feeling
tired, puffy.
All these symptoms that I justask people, is that okay?
Are you okay with low-levelanxiety and low-level depression
(41:00):
on a daily basis?
Well, one thing that I reallyrespect about you is that not
only are you a therapist, butyou also had your own personal
experience with alcoholism.
Can you tell us a little bitabout that just so that we have
a bit of a backstory there?
Sure.
I grew up in an alcoholic familyand they were high spectrum.
(41:24):
My dad was high spectrum.
So I always had that as myguide.
So I grew up thinking, well, I'mnever going to be an alcoholic
like my dad.
And I wasn't.
I was actually an alcoholic likeme, which is so interesting.
Like I never drank beer out of acan.
I never walked around in myunderwear drinking beer, you
(41:46):
know, all those things.
So I think I was probably moreof a classy drunk.
Of course, classy with a K.
So it just really something thatsnuck up on me.
I was very high functioning.
Something that is similar withalcoholics is that a lot of us
(42:07):
are binge drinkers out the gate.
When you talk to an alcoholic,you'll ask them, when's the
first time you drank?
And they'll be like, oh, when Iwas 13 or 16 or 17.
And I was at a high school partyor I stole alcohol from my
parents.
And you drink a lot.
You binge a lot immediately.
I would say that's true for themajority of alcoholics.
(42:30):
So what I did drink, I was abinge drinker.
I was drinking big.
And that was something that Idid.
I don't know.
Once a month or sometimes everyweekend, but sometimes not.
There was long stretches of nodrinking at all, but binging.
I remember when I got married,we didn't even have alcohol in
(42:54):
the house.
We didn't collect wine.
We didn't have wine.
It was just something that, youknow, we would split a bottle of
wine on the weekends and then wewould do a wild Wednesday where
we had friends over.
So then it was like Wednesdays.
Friday, Saturday.
And those days just startedadding on.
But I remember switching at somepoint.
(43:17):
I didn't want to split a bottleof red wine with him.
I didn't drink during mypregnancy.
So that was proof that I wasn'tan alcoholic because only an
alcoholic drinks during theirpregnancy.
So I had all these little thingsthat I was doing that were proof
that I pulled it together andhigh functioning.
(43:38):
I had all these little tricksthat just justified my drinking.
You lie about your story andyour drinking so long.
With all of that going on for solong, it was brought to your
attention by your husband.
Did you realize it?
Was there a particular eventthat made you say, you know
(43:58):
what?
I think I have a problem.
I ended up going to a therapist.
She was not an addictiontherapist.
She was lovely, but she was veryconservative.
And I remember her saying to me,were you drinking when that
happened?
And I got really annoyed.
(44:19):
And I said to her, I'm alwaysdrinking.
You don't have to ask me, was Idrinking or not drinking?
So when I tell you a story, justassume I'm drinking.
We don't have to discuss itevery time.
So she was like, do you thinkthat is normal?
I was so offended by herquestioning that whole thing.
(44:39):
Well, I do think that whetherit's conscious or unconscious,
there's a time where it soundslike you're almost defending or
protecting the alcoholism orprotecting your wanting to
drink.
Yeah, I don't know a singleaddict or alcoholic that doesn't
have that because that really isthe crux of when I talk about a
(45:00):
hijacked brain.
In your brain, it's hijacked bydrugs or alcohol.
That really is the crux.
Your brain is protecting thataddiction above all else.
And so the idea that you wouldquit, it's just really crazy.
And you get very defiant.
(45:21):
And I think one of thedifferences between an addiction
therapist and a regulartherapist is that when somebody
does decide to quit drinking orquit drug use, we do a
tremendous amount of grief andloss work around alcohol and
drugs.
Like you are mourning the lossof that best friend that was
(45:46):
always there for you, right?
Like you had that aboveeverything else and now it's
gone.
And so you really have to dogrief and loss work around
alcohol losing your addictionbecause life is suddenly very
scary.
One thing I've heard you say islike asking an alcoholic to stop
(46:09):
drinking is almost like askingthem to lose something that they
really love.
And you said something likeasking a mother to stop talking
or seeing their children.
And that really struck mebecause I can't ever imagine
doing that.
But It was an example of thestrong pull that alcohol has for
(46:32):
the alcoholic.
And now you're also saying thatthis was something that you
relied on to help you getthrough things.
And now you don't have that.
So now what do you do?
What do you do?
It's a tricky thing.
And I tell people who areconsidering drinking or leaving
(46:52):
drugs, it's a hard sell.
And I tell people, all the timethat I am a hopeless romantic
when it comes to recovery.
I believe it's possible foreverybody, but it is a really
hard sell because things aregoing to get a lot worse before
they get better.
(47:13):
Just even chemically, you'regoing to have a huge dip in
dopamine, serotonin,norepinephrine, all these
chemicals in your brain.
When you're drinking it, Itcomes to the point where that's
the only thing that's giving youdopamine is the drink.
You might go to a birthdayparty, but really what you're
(47:34):
enjoying is that you're able todrink at that birthday party.
So to try to convince somebodythat they're going to lose
access to dopamine, serotonin,norepinephrine, well, those are
serious things.
So you're likely going to gointo a pretty mild or deep
depression.
(47:55):
and lots of anxiety when thatdrink goes away.
Your relationships are likelygoing to get worse before they
get better.
Your sleep is going to be worsebefore it gets better.
Your thoughts are going to beworse before they get better.
So that's why I think it'sreally important to work with an
addiction therapist or asponsor.
(48:17):
Sponsors are amazing.
They do all that for free.
So they can normalize what'sgoing on in your brain.
I mean, how were you able to getthrough that period and finally
get convinced to stop drinking?
So I did 30 movies in 30 days.
A lot of people do 30 meetingsin 30 days, but I just really
(48:38):
hunkered down.
I closed the drapes in my houseand just watched a lot of movies
and had mild detox symptoms,sweating at night and probably
raised blood pressure.
And I was just cranky.
I didn't really know what I wasdoing.
There's no medication or anykind of things to support you?
Now, if I had the options that Iknow now, I didn't know anything
(49:03):
when this happened.
I'm coming up on 11 years.
So...
If I were to do it now, I wouldhave gone to rehab.
Rehab is great.
I don't think it's the answerfor everybody, but you get
pretty intense psychoeducation.
They get you involved with AAand whether or not you love AA
or you hate AA, at least you'reexposed to it in rehab.
(49:27):
And you have a support system inrehab that are taking you to
those meetings.
So I would have done rehab and Iwould have gone there.
likely on Welbutrin, whichtargets specifically dopamine.
I would have gone to AAmeetings.
I would have found an addictiontherapist.
I would have gotten a sponsor.
And that would have been sogreat.
(49:49):
But many people just don't knowwhat the hell they're doing.
That's why it's important toshare your story because there
are a lot of people out therethat think they can do it
themselves and some can.
But like you said, if you hadthe choice looking back, Why not
have support?
Why not have guidance?
This is all information thatwould make things smoother.
(50:10):
You know, applaud you for yourpersistence because it's a rough
road to come back.
You were drinking regularly andyou were probably a different
person.
Your personality might havechanged during that versus you
being sober.
Is that true?
It's a tough one.
So the feedback that I get frommy husband is that When I was
(50:33):
drinking, I was mean.
Because when I'm sober, I'malways on the verge of being
mean anyway.
It's really something that Ihave to manage.
There's a toughness about methat needs to be managed.
And it's unmanageable whenyou're drinking.
So if you have extraco-occurring disorders, as we
(50:55):
call them in my world,co-occurring disorder would be A
personality disorder likenarcissism or a mood disorder
like anxiety, depression,bipolar.
If you are drinking, you arejust those things.
So if you are a drinkingborderline, you are beyond
borderline personality disorder.
(51:16):
That's all you are and nobodycan see anything else.
If you tend to be a depressedperson and you are drinking, you
are a depressed person.
These are things that you cannotmanage while you're drinking.
And it's a tricky thing.
So that's why people are like,oh, can I do harm reduction and
just drink a little bit?
(51:37):
I don't know.
Do you want to be an assholejust a little bit of the time?
You've done a lot of familytherapy with addiction.
And there are people that haveto deal with addicts that are
like Wesley and his wife that isongoing.
And there may not be a solution.
What is some advice that you cangive family members or loved
(51:59):
ones that love the addict as faras trying to keep up their
mental health?
We'll go specifically withmothers right now and their
addicted children.
Normally by the time that theyget to me, they've been in and
out of rehabs.
They've done all the familygroups.
They've gone to Al-Anon.
So normally by the time that youget to me, they're just tired.
(52:21):
And when we talk about what todo, And everybody wants
boundaries to be black andwhite.
And here's the line in the sand,and this is what I'm doing.
And very typically, boundariesare not black and white.
You can draw the line in thesand, but then something
happens.
So you got to reevaluate yourboundary, which is why it's
(52:41):
really important to have atherapist in your corner so you
can discuss how does that makeyou feel.
A lot of times we discuss threethings.
And we talk about what themental health perspective is,
what the perspective is from amother and a parent, and what
the perspective is from Al-Anon.
And those aren't always the sameperspective.
(53:03):
I love Al-Anon, but Al-Anon canbe black and white, right?
They're all about detachinglovingly and trying to figure
out how to do that.
So a lot of the questions that Ihave with a mother in therapy
is, if that is your decision andthat is your boundary, will you
be able to sleep?
That's the biggest thing is, areyou going to be able to sleep
(53:25):
tonight?
You know, if somebody comes toyou and they're just at the
beginning of their journey witha loved one who they believe has
an addiction, what is someadvice that you could give them
as far as the attitude youshould have with the situation?
So in the beginning, I'm reallyabout not giving them money.
(53:49):
and not enabling in that way.
And so we really go through thebills of, okay, you're paying
for their car and their carinsurance.
And so what are we willing to dohere?
And maybe not cutting it offimmediately, but like maybe
bringing in the child.
And when I say child, I'mtalking about literally like a
25 year old.
(54:09):
I mean, but they're acting likechildren.
So trying to figure out thefinancial plan Because if you're
giving your 25-year-old child$2,000 a month to live, that
would be rent, cell phone, food,right?
You're not going to becomfortable just taking that
$2,000 away.
(54:30):
So we've come up with afinancial plan of what are we
going to do?
How are we going to sleep?
How are we going to feelcomfortable reducing that$2,000?
And also communicatingeffectively with that person,
this is the plan, this is whatwe're going to do.
So just so you know that this iscoming.
You're talking about enabling.
I think loved ones in theirquest to try and help may not
(54:54):
realize that they're enabling incertain ways.
Oh, absolutely.
So getting sober for anyone orharm reduction is always about
negative consequences.
Most people are not going tohave the consciousness to be
like, oh, I'm really strugglingwith anxiety and depression.
I need to quit drinking.
That's not a big enough negativeconsequence.
(55:15):
We need to see other things likerelationships deteriorating,
losing a job, losing yourhousing, people coming up with
boundaries, right?
You're not invited to mybirthday party because you
hijacked the party and thepolice come.
These are negative consequencesfor people.
So they start to feel a littlebit more uncomfortable.
(55:38):
And when you give somebody$2,000a month, What's the negative
consequence on that one?
There's no reason to go get ajob.
I think that's probably one ofthe hardest things for a loved
one is being able to watch thishappen and to stand back from
it.
(55:59):
As a loved one, whether it's aspouse or sister or a mother,
you want to protect that personfrom the badness that could
happen from their addiction.
I don't know.
That's so hard, but it's reallyimportant.
You know, I wanted to ask youabout something that Wesley
said.
He believes alcoholics drinkbecause they're feeling a lot of
(56:20):
emotion and they're scared ofbeing vulnerable.
What do you think of thisbelief?
I would totally agree with that.
I specifically am an attachmenttherapist.
So I believe that drinking andusing comes from attachment
disorder and not properlyattaching to a parent or maybe
(56:42):
your mother was an alcoholic ormaybe your dad left at a young
age or maybe it's not that clearcut.
Maybe it's just that you went tomiddle school and everybody
hated you or you had theperception that everybody hated
you and so you didn't feelattached to community.
Caregivers, there's a hole inyou and you're unable to
(57:06):
continually connect or maybe notat all connect to persons,
places or things, butspecifically persons.
So you're just like feeling oddman out at a party or maybe
everybody's laughing at the jokeand you don't get it.
Or maybe you're in arelationship, but you can't
(57:26):
quite connect with your partner.
And the drinking is aboutfilling that hole.
And some people fill it withgambling.
Some people fill it with sex orporn or shopping or work, food.
These are all things that wefill our attachment hole.
And that will help us getthrough the moment or the day or
(57:49):
the week.
Most people have to continuallyfill that hole every single day.
And that is about feelings andnot being vulnerable.
So you really have to removethose things that you're filling
your hole with to try to figureout what the shit is going on.
When you said that it brought tolight that the choice for the
(58:12):
alcoholic really is, do I facethese feelings that I really
don't want to face that arehurtful, painful, angry,
whatever it is, or do I continueto drink and just not do that?
That's right.
And it's pretty apparent to methat the answer is usually just
(58:33):
continue to drink.
It's a really badass, courageousthing to do is to get sober.
But when you're doing it, itcertainly doesn't feel that way.
Yeah, a lot of persistence, alot of discipline.
So I applaud you for that.
My last question is, how hasyour life improved since Now
(58:56):
that you don't have alcohol inyour life or the addiction.
It's just night and day.
Like my full-time hobby is mymental health.
Because as I did get sober, ofcourse, the real problems came
up.
Those are all things that youcan learn to do in sobriety
because you have consciousnessand awareness and mindfulness.
(59:17):
But these are decisions that Imake in sobriety and not being
things that were modeled to mewhen I was growing up.
So not being passive aggressive,not being critical, not being
blaming.
And these are things that youchoose.
So it's all different, not tosound too hokey, but it's a
spiritual practice.
Some days you have better daysthan other days.
(59:40):
Like I don't have the answer,but I'm working on the answers
as they come.
And those are all things thatyou can only do if you're not
using chemicals.
So it's totally different.
Not to sound too jaded, but whenpeople come to me, I say, you're
fucked if you're sober andyou're fucked if you're not
(01:00:00):
sober, but you're way lessfucked.
A big thank you to our musicalguest Wesley Schultz of The
Lumineers and our mental healthexpert, Carrie Abernathy.
For more information on TheLumineers and Wesley Schultz,
visit thelumineers.com, catchThe Lumineers on tour starting
February 2022, and follow TheLumineers on their socials at
(01:00:22):
The Lumineers.
Stay tuned to listen to a clipof The Lumineers' new number one
single, Bright Side, from theiralbum of the same name, at the
end of our episode.
For more information on CarrieAbernathy, visit
arborhousefriends.com and followCarrie on Facebook at Arbor
House Friends.
(01:00:42):
So until next time, be brave,ask for help, and be persistent
in finding the mental health
SPEAKER_02 (01:00:55):
that you need.
Alone on a freeway Check
SPEAKER_01 (01:01:22):
Your Head Podcast is kindly supported and partnered
with Sweet Relief MusiciansFund, DBSA San Gabriel Valley,
Earshot Media, and and LemonTree Studios in Los Angeles.
Visit checkyourheadpodcast.comwhere we have over 100 solutions
for mental health.
Be our friends on social mediaat Check Your Head Podcast.
(01:01:43):
Watch us on YouTube and supportus with a kind donation on
checkyourheadpodcast.com.
Check Your Head Podcast issponsored by a 501c3 nonprofit
with all donations being taxdeductible.
Thank you for your support andthank you for listening.
Welcome to the Check Your Head podcast, the podcast
where notable musicians andexperts share their stories and
solutions for mental health andwellness.
I'm your host, Mari Fong, amusic journalist and life coach
for musicians.
And today I'm starting withdifficulties and challenges that
I'm going through, and that manyof you may also be experiencing.
(00:24):
So last week, I had a loved onetest positive for COVID, where
we both had to quarantine athome.
It was a scary, stressful timefor both of us, feeling
overwhelmed with the worry ofCOVID, being physically
separated and feeling sad aboutit, and the struggle to even do
simple chores like making dinneror doing laundry.
During this time, we also gotour bikes stolen, biking being
(00:48):
one of the few exercises thatmade me feel good during this
pandemic.
Then my computer crashed, soit's been a tough week, and
although I'm really thankful forso many things in my life, If
anyone can relate to thisstress, wants to vent, or has
words of encouragement, send mean email at checkyourheadpodcast
at gmail.com.
(01:09):
Even if you just write, Hi Mari,please know that your words
would brighten my day.
Now to our featured guests.
Today we have the lead singerand songwriter of a band that's
been hitting singles out of thepark since 2012, with six of
their songs ranking number oneon the Billboard charts,
including Jorge, Ophelia, andGloria, with their latest single
(01:31):
Bright Side also hitting numberone.
Today I'm excited to have WesleySchultz of the Lumineers share
his solutions for living andcaring for a loved one with
alcoholism and mental healthissues, this woman actually
being the muse behind their songGloria.
I'll also play a clip of theirnew single Bright Side from the
(01:52):
Lumineers' fourth studio albumof the same name, dropped on
January 14, 2022.
Next, we have marriage andfamily therapist and addiction
specialist, Keri Abernathy,speak on how alcoholism can have
a ripple effect among families,how to help a loved one with an
addiction, while also mentallysaving yourself.
(02:13):
Keri also has a uniqueperspective, being both a
therapist and a recoveringalcoholic, and will give us her
professional and real-worldadvice and guidance.
But first, let's hear WesleySchultz of the Lumineers share
his story.
First of all, I want tocongratulate you on Bright Side.
You also dropped Vignettes,which dropped in 2020.
(02:36):
But we're actually going to goback to the themes of your album
Three, which was dropped late2019, which dealt with mental
health, addiction, andalcoholism.
But thank you so much for that,because that was such an open,
honest, very vulnerable albumwith its lyrics and its focus.
SPEAKER_00 (02:58):
Oh, thanks.
Yeah, it was cathartic and itwas a draining experience, but
it had this life of its own onceit got put out into the world.
That is the album three wherewe've met so many people in the
last 10 years touring as theLumineers, but that was the most
immediately intimateconversations I've ever had with
complete strangers where youfelt like you knew them because
(03:20):
of the confessional side ofthings or even just the honesty
side.
it's a 360-degree view ofemotion around it.
It's not just saying totallysympathetic towards one side or
the other, but it's trying toexpress how complicated the
whole deal is for everybodyinvolved.
Like throwing a stone in thewater, there's a ripple effect
(03:40):
that everyone feels.
SPEAKER_01 (03:42):
Right, and also that it's not necessarily a story
that has a beginning, middle, oran end.
It goes in so many differentdirections.
But I also think that albumskind of represent...
the chapter that we're goingthrough in our lives.
And it sounded like these lyricscame out during this time in
(04:03):
your life.
Can you kind of describe whatwas on your mind that inspired
this whole theme?
SPEAKER_00 (04:10):
So my wife, we've been together since 2009.
And ever since I've known her,her mother's been a severe
alcoholic.
And so many things about thatimpacted our own relationship, I
began to appreciate how naive Iwas to solve problems relative
(04:33):
to addiction.
Like I thought you could justcome in and say X, Y, and Z, and
that's what they're not doing.
And that's why it's not fixed.
And I'm kind of wired to see aproblem and try to fix it.
And that's not helpful incertain situations.
So my wife has a ton of storiesthat she had told me.
And then we had shared storiesonce we got together.
(04:54):
You know, she had taken hercollege tuition that her dad had
left her to spend on hereducation and she spent that on
her mom's rehab.
And that was a number of times.
You know, you'd get these callsin the middle of the night since
we've been together and it wouldbe your mom's in jail or your
mom's in detox, your mom'sescaped rehab or whatever the
thing was, it left you feeling abit haunted.
(05:16):
You know, this person thatyou're supposed to love is sort
of haunting you and causing youto live in almost this survival
mode versus being present.
You're sort of likeexistentially thinking about
this a lot.
And so I started to see that andit started dominating my
(05:36):
thoughts and it began coming outin the writing.
I wanted to get that out of mebecause I felt the best thing I
can do is try to tell my sideand also maybe a bit of
compassion towards her side inwriting these songs.
You know, a lot of rock stars,the first thing they do when
they get a little bit of moneyis they buy their mom a house.
(05:57):
So I bought my mom a house and Ibought her mom a house.
And it was a small house rightoutside of town in Fort Collins.
We thought that was going to begreat.
She could walk to town.
It'll get her exercising.
It'll get her community.
And instead, it led to her beingseverely isolated.
You know, you can order alcoholfor delivery.
(06:18):
You can order food delivered.
And so all she ended up doingwas stacking up pizza boxes and
she could drink a gallon ofTito's in a single day.
And that's what she was doing.
So we realized we had made amistake and eventually had to
evict her out of the house.
And then she went on the run andbecame homeless, got in jail in
(06:38):
different states.
It's been a long haul.
And finally, my wife and herbrother got guardianship over
her.
She suffers from dementia andalso severe alcoholism.
And they were able to find ahome for her that can actually
meet some of those needs andhelp get her off of drinking
mostly.
So that's a relief because wedon't have this person that
(07:00):
we're so worried about all thetime in harm's way out on the
streets and worse.
In a single year, we were toldthat she visited the ER 99
times, that she was drinkingherself into such a state that
she was being brought in.
So I couldn't get out of myhead.
But after having conversationswith my wife about it, she said,
(07:22):
well, you're a part of thisfamily and it's been 10 years
and you have every right toexpress this if you want and you
have my blessing.
And so I'd check in with her andI'd show her songs, but it was a
tricky and still is a trickything.
And so sometimes the outsidercan see things a little more
clearly or objectively becausethey're not codependent as much
or they're not thinking in thesame way that it can feel so
(07:44):
hopeless when you're in thatcycle with a family member.
And it feels unmovable andunchangeable.
SPEAKER_01 (07:51):
Well, you know, one thing you mentioned is your wife
having to grow up in anatmosphere where alcoholism was
part of that.
How has that affected her andher mental health?
Because I know sometimes whenthat happens, the daughter can
feel like the mother.
SPEAKER_00 (08:07):
Yeah, that's funny you say that because I've never,
we just had celebrated Christmastogether with her family and
she's sort of the matriarch bydefault.
She has three brothers, oneolder, two younger, and she was
the mom in a lot of ways.
When there would be an occasionlike Christmas, she'd be racking
up credit card debt so thateveryone had a present because
(08:30):
she felt so bad for her brothersand she knew that no one was
going to step up in that way.
And she still does it, and itcauses a lot of tension because
we'll go out to dinner and shewants to take care of them so
much because she feels bad thatthere wasn't a mom I've seen
that, and I've tried to supporther in that, and I've also tried
to question it and challenge itin a loving way.
(08:52):
An example would be like, hey, Ithink your brothers want to help
pay for this meal, or sometimesthey want to treat us, but
there's a protectiveness thatshe feels about them that I
can't exactly relate to with mytwo siblings, where we weren't
raised in that environment, soit's abnormal to me.
It's just foreign to me to seethat.
My brother can take care ofhimself.
(09:12):
If he wants to buy dinner, he'llbuy dinner, I'll buy dinner, and
And that's just not how it is inher mind.
And I think it comes from abeautiful place.
But it also comes from a sadplace for me where she put two
and two together and was like,well, we're not going to have
presents under the tree if it'sup to mom.
Because she's busy not knowingwhat day of the week it is.
She's blitzed out of her mind asa habit.
SPEAKER_01 (09:34):
Sounds like she took on the mother role.
But I'm wondering, as herpartner, there's got to be
somebody to take care of her.
Do you find that she's having aharder time accepting help from
someone like yourself or evenwith the situation?
SPEAKER_00 (09:49):
Yeah, I mean, I think there's an independent
streak in her that was forgedout of that.
That self-reliance became anidentity and sometimes gets in
the way of accepting lovebecause you don't believe that
you're worthy of it because thisvery pivotal person in your
life.
Honestly, I felt that too.
(10:10):
I think we all struggle withworthiness at times.
You know, she's a mother now andwe tried to conceive for like
four years and then we werelike, maybe we just can't have
kids.
And then we were lucky enough tobe able to do IVF and that
worked.
And when they do it, they allowyou, if you want, to choose
whether you want to have a boyor a girl.
And she said, I want to have aboy first.
(10:33):
So our son was picked first.
And the reason she did that isbecause she had such a hard
relationship with her mom thatshe was scared of how it would
go if that was her first rodeowith our first kid was going to
be a girl.
So she went with the boy.
And that just shows you howintertwined it is in her head
(10:54):
with how hard of a relationshipthat was.
I think another part of it wasthat she's always reading the
room.
She was forced to understand andread people because that was how
she survived.
She could tell mom had beendrinking or there was going to
be a blowout, whatever.
She had to develop that spideysense way, way earlier than a
(11:15):
typical kid would.
So she's highly self-aware,almost to a point where she
really wants to make sureeverybody's okay.
I'm more like, okay, if I pisssomeone off, it doesn't really
matter to me.
Because I came from a housewhere you were allowed to
irritate someone.
It wasn't the other world.
And I didn't have to readeverybody that closely.
She's always the person who's,if there's someone who looks
(11:38):
uncomfortable at a party, she'strying to make them feel okay.
Because that's what she did allgrowing up.
Her mom was really sad and sheknew it.
And she was always trying tocheer her up and do different
things to make your parent feelhappy when that's usually the
roles reversed.
Usually it's the parent isdoting on the kid.
SPEAKER_01 (11:57):
Well, one thing you mentioned is her trying to make
her mom feel happy.
Oftentimes with addiction, thereare mental health issues or
traumas that drive someone todrink.
Was she or you ever able to getto the bottom of what it was
that was driving her to drink?
SPEAKER_00 (12:15):
No, I mean, we've asked her siblings, some of
them, and they don't seem toknow.
It's not entirely clear.
This is strange to say, but theonly time I've ever talked to
her and felt like I got to knowher was when she had drank a bit
and called us.
And all her walls were gone, andshe was playful, and she felt
like herself.
(12:35):
And it was almost like hernormal...
sober behavior was filled withbarriers and walls and armor
covering up something that shedidn't want us to see.
And then that one time when shecalled us, it sounds like I
shouldn't be saying this orsomething, but it was a
beautiful thing to at least seeher once and be like, that's
who's inside.
(12:56):
That's that like innocent,happy, curious person.
And she was denying us theability to love her that way or
show love.
It was very uncomfortable forher.
to be loved.
I don't know where that comesfrom.
That's a really sad thing thatsomeone feels they avoid that
instinctually.
(13:16):
They can't trust it, even withyour own kid.
We did ask her siblings.
It's a big family.
She was one of seven.
It's a lot of kids.
And I'm just not sure whathappened along the way.
But I would imagine somethinghappened to make her have these
types of defenses up and maybeusing alcohol to numb some sort
of trauma or pain.
(13:37):
became a habit.
SPEAKER_01 (13:38):
Well, you know, one thing that was described through
the music videos of the albumThree was the intergenerational
effects of alcoholism andaddiction that could go through
families.
Was this seen throughout herfamily?
Did it affect other members ofthe family with the addiction?
SPEAKER_00 (13:59):
Yeah, certainly.
I mean, among her and hersiblings, there was different
degrees of people getting outless or more scathed.
There are stories I had heardabout her showing up, passed out
on one of the siblings' lawnwhen he was at college, and he
came outside and she's laying onthe dewy grass in the morning
(14:21):
and her mom's passed out.
I mean, to other people, youdon't think that must be
embarrassing or humiliating.
But to the person whose mom itis, you feel embarrassed and it
reflects on you.
Also with Brandy, My wife andher mom, there was a lot of
really combative and meanlanguage used all the time.
(14:42):
And whenever you thought thingswere going well, she'd say the
meanest things.
It was when she was drinking,because she was drinking almost
all the time.
And then I remember oneChristmas, we were like, if
you're going to come, we boughtone of these breathalyzers, and
you're going to have to blow init.
Because he just held one of thesiblings' babies, and...
I don't want there to be anaccident that you feel bad about
(15:05):
and we feel bad about.
I don't want you to get in adrunk driving accident.
And she refused to come,claiming it was disrespectful.
And it was like, well, I'll doit.
Well, I'll take it.
It's a weird game.
And then I remember we got her adog, thinking that would help
her.
She'd go out for walks.
It was a social dog.
It would keep her company.
Then she'd end up in these detoxsituations for days on end.
(15:27):
And this poor dog was all byitself.
And we had to rehome the dog andshe didn't understand why you
need to do that.
She's like, I gave it enoughfood.
We're like, this dog is going todie.
Like, what are we talking about?
This person can't take care ofthemselves, much less a poor,
innocent dog.
So we actually need to movethis.
And that was like, again, superpainful.
(15:48):
Those little details peopledon't think about.
They think about the big things,but it's those little decisions
like, hey, we have to call yourmom and tell her we're taking
your dog away.
That's like a really awfulthing.
SPEAKER_01 (15:59):
Well, dogs become family members and we love them
like our own.
To me, the first thing I felt isif she wasn't able to take care
of her dog, what was going onwhen she was raising her
children?
It's a hard thing to thinkabout.
But even in the music videos,there were scenes where mom
drank too much.
She passed out and the baby wasthere.
(16:21):
Nobody was there to watch overthe baby.
So you mentioned about the ERvisits, you know, what it's
like.
to have to answer that call.
SPEAKER_00 (16:33):
It's hard when the phone rings.
It's receiving terrible news.
Even if it's not that, suddenlyit's lumped in with that when
it's a certain hour.
I remember getting a call from aWyoming jail and it's like,
she's in jail?
But I also remember going in tosee her at a hospital where she
was getting detoxed and they puther on Ativan to ease her off of
(16:57):
the DTs And when you're underthat, you can be
pre-uninhibited.
You're just truthful.
That's when I found out how muchshe drank because they said, how
much vodka do you consume in aday?
And she's like, I drink a handlelike a gallon.
And we were like, holy shit.
I thought that was for a fewdays.
And she was at that point almost70.
(17:19):
She'd been doing it for 30years.
And it's just mind-blowing howout of control it was but normal
to them.
And I know she gave them love.
I know she made them every mealat school.
She got their blood types so shecould make these immaculate,
healthy food that was matched totheir blood type.
In some ways, she was extremelycaring as a mother.
(17:42):
And then in other ways, it wascompletely off the rails.
She wasn't some evil person.
It was just, it overshadowed allthe good.
And by the time I stepped in thesituation, it was pretty out of
control.
And it was heading only one way.
We just didn't know it.
My dad was a psychologist andthere was a theory at one point
that I forget what psychologistsaid this, but he said, you
(18:05):
know, you give me like 10 kidsand I can make one a prisoner.
I can make one a doctor.
I can make one a soldier.
I can make one a this, that, andthe other.
Like he was all about this ideaof nurture versus nature.
Like it was way more how you'retreated determines who you are
and not intrinsically your DNAor you're wiring, and that was
(18:25):
his philosophy.
And watching how Brandy and hersiblings have turned out, it's
clear that it can't be allnurture because they weren't
raised in an ideal environmentand they're all thriving, doing
amazing stuff.
SPEAKER_01 (18:38):
It's wonderful that they've broken the cycle of that
because I hear about storieslike that and either people go
down the same road or they learnfrom that and say, I never want
to have my children experiencethat.
SPEAKER_00 (18:53):
I've seen it in Brandy where it's way different
from me where if I was Brandy, Ithink I would drink a lot more
because she doesn't pay for itthe way I pay for it.
Her hangovers are nil.
She's like energized in themorning.
Her body and its ability toprocess alcohol, you can kind of
see why if that's how her momfelt often, like pretty
(19:16):
unscathed by a heavy night ofdrinking, it's really fun to get
out of your own head and tomaybe numb the pain Or to just
have fun and be uninhibited.
I'm a musician.
For the first eight years oftouring, it was a lot of late
nights and partying.
And then I eventually got kindof injured.
And I realized that I had tostop doing that.
(19:36):
But again, people simplify it.
If you partied all night and gotup and felt fine the next day,
you don't think you'd partymore?
People aren't actually realizingthat for some people, like my
wife, you see...
how incredibly well their bodyprocesses alcohol.
It's crazy.
And it's like, I could see whythat's a huge temptation.
(19:58):
And then all of a sudden it'severy night.
And it might not even know whenit began.
It was just easier for you thanother people.
And that gave me a level ofsympathy because I never really
put that together.
I was making it more of acaricature or one dimensional.
And there's so many differentthings at play that might lead
you down this eventual path thatyou find yourself on.
(20:20):
To the point where with her mom,she was way happier at the time
being homeless and beingunregulated and allowed to drink
versus being in rehab, beingcontrolled by other people.
It was everything to her, whichis the essence of that addiction
is that you're kind of likedestroying yourself, but you
think this is freedom.
SPEAKER_01 (20:41):
I'm curious because there's so much ongoing drama.
How did you and your wife dealwith the stress of that and the
anxiety of that?
SPEAKER_00 (20:50):
It's a little bits of trauma here and there, or
it's little bits of conflictthat you're trying to deal with
together.
Like early on when we firststarted dating, she would tell
me about these things and thensay, I shouldn't tell you this.
Maybe you won't love me.
Or it felt like filth to her.
Like it reflected exactly on herand no one else.
(21:12):
And so it's funny because it ledto a song where she said, you're
like my dead sea.
You know, like I can't sink.
You hold me up.
We ended up writing a songcalled Dead Sea because I really
liked how it sort of soundedlike an insult.
You're my Dead Sea, but itactually is this beautiful
expression of love.
So I studied psychology.
My dad was a psychologist.
(21:33):
And just writing songs and beinginterested in people, I wanted
to know her.
And I didn't want her toapologize for something that was
completely out of her hands.
And I think maybe thatacceptance of her helped her
accept herself and helped ourrelationship.
Part of it is that I'm not that.
I'm not coming from that exactbackground.
And I think that helps.
(21:54):
If we were both coming fromdysfunction in that way, it can
lead to more and more becauseyou're just used to that.
That's normal to you.
And so when I kept saying, thisis not normal, I think she kind
of knew she needed to hear that.
You know what I mean?
She had never put a boundary upwith her mom ever until we met.
And I said, she just called youthe worst name you could call
(22:16):
someone.
And I think you need to ask forsome space until she can learn
to respect you.
It's up to you.
But I was like, this is kind ofabusive.
And she did.
And went six months withouttalking to her.
And then putting up thoseboundaries, it was hard for me
because you're a little bit onthe sidelines too.
I can say so much, but it's yourlife and it's your mother.
(22:37):
And I don't want to overstep.
I'm just telling you as yourpartner, selfishly, all I really
care about, number one, is you.
I want you to be okay.
And maybe she needed an advocatethere because she's wired to put
her mom's needs before hers justas a feature of growing up in
(22:57):
that world.
SPEAKER_01 (23:00):
I'm sure she relies on you in a lot of different
ways to see things from adifferent perspective.
One thing you mentioned is thatgoing through these experiences,
it's changed your perceptionabout what alcoholism and
addiction is.
What are some of the things thatkind of flipped you on your head
as far as what you believe aboutit now
SPEAKER_00 (23:22):
I think number one was watching someone decide to
be homeless just so they coulddrink that spoke volumes to me
versus anything she could havesaid I just had a naive thing
that we all just had to say theright things as a family and
then she would change like if wesaid we won't see you if you
(23:44):
keep drinking she would stop butshe was like no Drinking is
number one.
And the fact that you're eventelling me this, fuck you.
You don't have the right to tellme.
I'm an adult.
And that blew me away because ifit was my kids, I can't imagine
saying, no, I'm not going to seeyou anymore because I want to do
(24:04):
anything like that.
I kept thinking about standingin the ocean and these waves
just hitting you where it's outof your control at some point.
And it's very hard for us tounderstand because it's not...
an X-rayable broken bone or anMRI can detect this.
Because there's no way tomeasure it in that way, it's
(24:24):
very confusing to know how tohandle it.
The appreciation I had for itwas how far down she got, and it
still controlled her even whenshe was at her lowest.
And that's all I needed to seeto understand I'm dealing with
some force greater than what Ithought.
And then you pit siblingsagainst siblings where you're
like, oh, this one allows me todo what I want to do, so I love
(24:45):
you.
And these other ones don't loveme.
And it just messes with kidsbecause they're wired to like
want to be loved.
We all want to be loved by ourparents.
SPEAKER_01 (24:55):
Right.
That it's become her primarylove, even beyond her family.
That's the hard part is torealize that this thing actually
has a stronger pull on her thanthe love of her family.
I was reading something that yousaid, which I thought was really
insightful.
It said that you believealcoholics drink.
(25:16):
because they're feeling a lot ofemotion and they're scared of
being vulnerable, maybe afraidof their own feelings.
So I'm wondering if the decisionfor an alcoholic, is it really
about whether they're going todrink or not?
Or is it really about whether ornot they're going to face their
emotions and the trauma or not?
SPEAKER_00 (25:38):
Yeah, it seems a burden to live in your own mind,
even on a sober level.
My dad used to say it's hardenough to wake up in your own
head every day, much less wakeup and try to explain that to
someone you're married to.
Like the whole thing's insane.
And it was really great to hearthat.
But just imagine some traumathat gets replayed in your head.
(26:01):
I always felt when we would talkto her, if things got emotional,
you'd see her eyes tear up andshe would laugh or change the
subject.
Everything was so close to thesurface.
Everything was just at asimmering, almost boil.
And you couldn't sense itbecause she had a good poker
face.
But maybe drinking allowed thatto tamp down all those feelings,
(26:25):
like she felt out of control orsomething.
You can feel sympathy forsomeone like that.
So it's like, how do you helpthis person if that's how raw
everything feels?
I think that's a way to attemptto understand someone's plight.
Instead of labeling them, theydon't have a strong enough will,
Or they're weak in some way.
(26:47):
What if this was you?
What if things felt that rawevery day?
Would you want to go throughthat?
Like, can't blame them.
That's probably the closest Ican come to understanding is
like realizing how much pain isjust below the surface.
SPEAKER_01 (27:01):
You're saying maybe the alcohol allows them to push
it down and they suppress it.
But I do believe that when we dothat, that it actually comes out
in very dysfunctional unhealthyways because I believe that
emotions need to have respect.
You need to give them respectand see them and look at them.
(27:22):
That's what it's there for, foryou to look at and not looking
at it.
It almost makes it bigger inyour head.
SPEAKER_00 (27:31):
Like a kettle that is whistling and boiling over.
It's going to come out one wayor the other.
SPEAKER_01 (27:36):
Well, I'm kind of curious because you said your
dad is a clinical psychologistor psychiatrist.
SPEAKER_00 (27:42):
psychologist yet.
SPEAKER_01 (27:43):
Yeah.
From his view, has he given youany advice or suggestion on what
can be done on the mental healthend of your mother-in-law?
SPEAKER_00 (27:55):
Yeah, I wish.
I mean, my dad passed away in07.
So he never got to meet Brandy,unfortunately.
And I never got to meet her dadeither.
He died at 56.
My dad died at 57, really young.
from cancer, respectively.
So I never got to ask him that.
I would love to know some of histhoughts on it.
But he wasn't like an addictionspecialist.
So we met with different peopleto get their takes on it.
(28:19):
And I would say the consensus isalmost reminding me of being a
lifeguard where you can't savesomeone from drowning if you're
drowning yourself.
You have to put up a healthyamount of boundaries to get
through it and survive it.
Otherwise, you're kind of goingto get pulled under.
And that's the cold reality whenit gets that deep is that a lot
(28:40):
of kids who become adults, sonsand daughters of alcoholics,
they need a lot of encouragementon saying it's okay to put up a
boundary because they've almostbeen trained to say, you put my
needs before yours from theparent.
That was just a huge part of itis being in a relationship with
(29:00):
Brandy was saying, hey, just soyou know, this isn't just
affecting you.
You being...
paralyzed by all of this anxietyand sadness and depression, it's
actually affecting us.
And when we have kids, it'sgoing to affect our kids.
That's probably what my dadwould say is you need to save
yourself first.
(29:21):
And it goes against everythingyou've been trained to think.
As a codependent thinker, ifthat's the environment you were
raised in, is to think aboutyourself first because you've
been trained to say that's evil,that's selfish.
writing these songs.
I spent so much time defendingBrandy in my head and trying to
(29:42):
protect her.
And then starting to realizelike, this is what she means
when she says, well, she's stillmy mom.
You know, that's still herdaughter.
And man, sorry.
And it doesn't matter how muchyou think about it and
intellectualize it.
It's still, it's a tragic thing.
(30:02):
And everybody would wish it wasdifferent if they could change
it.
You just keep returning to like,well, why?
And you never have an answer.
So the record, it's allopen-ended.
You're describing what happenedversus offering some solution or
happy ending.
SPEAKER_01 (30:18):
Right.
And just having to persist andsurvive and trying to thrive
while you're going through this.
You know, when somebody is inthe midst of an addiction, they
will do things to protect it.
They'll do things to defendthemselves.
Sometimes they'll use guilt orthey'll lie or they'll put blame
(30:39):
on somebody else for whatthey're doing.
But all those things are reallyhurtful.
What kind of advice would yougive to somebody who's just
starting to go through this withsomebody else?
SPEAKER_00 (30:54):
One of the things that really helped was having a
mediator that was aprofessional.
I should be supportive ofBrandy, but to have a a
psychologist, let's say, or atherapist that specializes in
addiction, that became a healthything for Brandy and I to look
to instead of me saying, here'swhat I think as an amateur
armchair psychologist.
(31:16):
I don't know anything.
Dad inevitably will advocate foryour mutual well-being.
You know what I mean?
And so the first time Brandy metwith her mom with a therapist,
her mom left within a minute.
She didn't like how it was goingand left.
And then Brandy spent the nexthour or two talking to the
therapist and it helped her somuch.
(31:37):
But just having someone therewho knows way more than an
amateur person is really good.
And it don't always stop at thefirst one.
There's a lot of bad dentistsand there's a lot of bad
therapists.
Find one that has the bedsidemanner or the attitude and go
with that because that's goingto be an ally to you and also
(31:57):
your relationship.
So for me, it's just, again,Trying to put up boundaries and
save yourself instead of gettingpulled into it so deep that you
can't even have a relationshipwith anyone else because this
one demands everything from youand also is kind of ruining your
head space and your well-beingemotionally on a daily or weekly
(32:19):
basis.
What saved her and her siblingswas their ability to lean on
each other.
There's four of them, so theygot to call each other when they
needed to sometimes and Seekprofessional help.
It doesn't have to be some dirtysecret.
SPEAKER_01 (32:34):
Right.
You know, I've had musicians saythings like, I'd go to the gym
for my physical health.
I'd go to my therapist for mymental health.
And your wife's speaking to hersiblings and commiserating,
sharing stories.
That's also a form of therapy.
You know, just any way to ventand get it out and be able to
(32:54):
process those emotions.
And I'm sure you both do thatfor each other.
But we've had people talk aboutAlcoholics Anonymous and
Al-Anon, which is like a supportgroup for people that are going
through, you know, living withsomebody who has an addiction.
Was that ever anything that wastried within your family or
(33:16):
considered?
SPEAKER_00 (33:16):
Yeah, we went to Al-Anon a handful of times.
It works for some people in anideal sense.
And then other people, like withmy wife, she's like, I just
don't prefer this group thing.
When I call my siblings and theysay I understand, I know they
understand.
And I just kind of need that.
You should be able to vent topeople and feel heard and seen,
(33:37):
however that can come about.
I just remember her trying itand just not feeling that
connection she wanted.
And I think that's another partof it is that calling your
sibling and saying something badhad happened and here's what
happened.
If you call a friend who's neverbeen through that, they might
(33:58):
try to plant some silver liningor preach to you a little bit or
try to teach you something.
And at the end of the day, youmight just be looking for
someone to go, that reallysucks.
I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_01 (34:10):
With everything that you've seen as far as rehab, and
it sounds like you've tried somany different ways to help your
mother-in-law.
What do you think the medicalprofession or society needs to
do better to assist people withalcoholism?
SPEAKER_00 (34:24):
I think there's a lot of addictions within the
homeless community.
And that's a good place to startto try to help people.
And instead, it's treated as abit of a nuisance.
And it pits neighbors againsthomeless.
It's just a weird, it's reallyinhumane the way it happens.
I think that's a great place tostart.
And then trying to find the rootcause of why you're drinking,
(34:47):
instead of just saying, we'regoing to put you in this rehab,
essentially like a milder formof jail.
And then the minute you get out,you haven't really addressed any
of that.
I know there are other countriesthat approach it differently,
and I'm more successful with it.
I wish it wasn't so commodified,but more treated like it's our
collective problem.
This is not as simple as peopleare making it out to be.
(35:09):
It's not just someone else'sproblem.
SPEAKER_01 (35:11):
Right.
It is a societal problem.
From what you're saying, itsounds like the care and
compassion has not been apriority in this situation as
much as it should be.
taking the time to find out whatis really going on with each
person is not really beinghandled in the right way.
You know, Brightside kind ofchanges the focus.
(35:35):
Maybe you could talk a littlebit about the contrast between 3
and the focus now withBrightside.
SPEAKER_00 (35:40):
Yeah, 3 was a big storytelling arc.
It was an ambitious sort ofconcept record.
And Brightside is like, we wentin there and just kind of
expressed this feeling andexpressed this hope you know we
acknowledge the pain and thesuffering within these songs and
still there's this undeniablehope in us and it's funny
(36:05):
because it happens even with thechildren of addicts or addicts
themselves i'll change i'llchange tomorrow tonight i'm
going to do what i want to dowe're all weirdly optimistic
some might call that denial buti i think we're wired to be
hopeful and that's where we'reat right now not only as a
country, but in the world.
I think we all want to turn thepage and get back to whatever
(36:26):
normal means.
It's just this almost innocence,but you're feeling the world is
at your feet.
It's all there and you have thisswagger and you have this
hopefulness.
And it was reconnecting withthat in a time when it's very
easy to be completely cynicalabout everything.
SPEAKER_01 (36:45):
I felt the excitement that you had with
this album and the songs Thankyou for the authenticity and the
honesty of your lyrics andreally just the joy that you've
brought us with all your music.
But is there anything else thatyou would like to say about
mental health or addiction?
The
SPEAKER_00 (37:01):
last thing I'll say is like the thing that I
realized by making album threethat I didn't quite realize
before was that it's an enormoussocietal taboo in America and a
lot of places in the world, theidea of addiction.
It's something that you cover upand you hide within your family
and you don't talk about unlessyou're totally sure that other
(37:23):
person already knows yoursecret.
And the more we can bring it outinto the light, the less
isolating it is and the less ofa taboo and the less scary it
is.
In the same way that I saw thatin my partner in Brandy where
she was scared I was going toharshly judge her for something
like that.
Don't underestimate how much ofa taboo this all is.
(37:47):
And it's really good that you'rehaving people talk about it and
bringing it out into the lightbecause then it can't be that
boogeyman.
We can't help each other if wedon't know what the hell's going
on.
SPEAKER_01 (38:01):
Next up, we have a mental health expert who
specializes in helping peoplewith addiction and mental health
disorders, working with couplesand families on the conflict
resolution that often comes withit.
Marriage and family therapistand addiction specialist Carrie
Abernathy will share her adviceon how families and loved ones
can help the addict with theirmental health while also making
(38:21):
their own mental health apriority.
Carrie also speaks from personalexperience being a recovering
alcoholic herself.
Now let's hear expert CarrieAbernathy share her knowledge
and advice.
You listened to Wesley of theLumineers share his story about
his mother-in-law.
What are some things that stoodout for you in that story?
(38:43):
That was a big story.
So alcoholism and addiction,it's a spectrum disorder on a
level of 1 to 10.
And his mother-in-law was a veryhigh spectrum person.
alcoholic.
She literally would not stopdrinking.
(39:04):
She couldn't come to eventswithout drinking.
They had tried to give herboundaries about being with each
other and seeing the kids andshe wasn't even trying because
she's so high spectrum.
That's a very specific type ofalcoholism.
You're looking at Possibly someobsessive compulsive stuff when
(39:27):
you get into that high spectrum.
So there's multiple things goingon.
Those are complicated cases.
(39:55):
do you have an issue, just notat that high of a spectrum?
That's correct.
That's something that I talkabout a lot.
So it's a tricky thing.
But what I say to people is likea level one alcoholic would be
somebody who drinks a bottle ofwine a day.
And a level 10 alcoholic issomebody who wakes up with the
shakes.
They're drinking vodka next totheir bed or out of the freezer.
(40:18):
Those look obviously verydifferent.
but your brain is still hijackedby alcoholism in the same way.
So at level one, if you'redrinking a bottle of wine a day,
you can still function.
You can still go to work.
You can still haverelationships.
There's a lot of things that youcan still perform that a level
(40:39):
10 alcoholic wouldn't be able todo.
But what we see at level one isanxiety, depression, feeling
tired, puffy.
All these symptoms that I justask people, is that okay?
Are you okay with low-levelanxiety and low-level depression
(41:00):
on a daily basis?
Well, one thing that I reallyrespect about you is that not
only are you a therapist, butyou also had your own personal
experience with alcoholism.
Can you tell us a little bitabout that just so that we have
a bit of a backstory there?
Sure.
I grew up in an alcoholic familyand they were high spectrum.
(41:24):
My dad was high spectrum.
So I always had that as myguide.
So I grew up thinking, well, I'mnever going to be an alcoholic
like my dad.
And I wasn't.
I was actually an alcoholic likeme, which is so interesting.
Like I never drank beer out of acan.
I never walked around in myunderwear drinking beer, you
(41:46):
know, all those things.
So I think I was probably moreof a classy drunk.
Of course, classy with a K.
So it just really something thatsnuck up on me.
I was very high functioning.
Something that is similar withalcoholics is that a lot of us
(42:07):
are binge drinkers out the gate.
When you talk to an alcoholic,you'll ask them, when's the
first time you drank?
And they'll be like, oh, when Iwas 13 or 16 or 17.
And I was at a high school partyor I stole alcohol from my
parents.
And you drink a lot.
You binge a lot immediately.
I would say that's true for themajority of alcoholics.
(42:30):
So what I did drink, I was abinge drinker.
I was drinking big.
And that was something that Idid.
I don't know.
Once a month or sometimes everyweekend, but sometimes not.
There was long stretches of nodrinking at all, but binging.
I remember when I got married,we didn't even have alcohol in
(42:54):
the house.
We didn't collect wine.
We didn't have wine.
It was just something that, youknow, we would split a bottle of
wine on the weekends and then wewould do a wild Wednesday where
we had friends over.
So then it was like Wednesdays.
Friday, Saturday.
And those days just startedadding on.
But I remember switching at somepoint.
(43:17):
I didn't want to split a bottleof red wine with him.
I didn't drink during mypregnancy.
So that was proof that I wasn'tan alcoholic because only an
alcoholic drinks during theirpregnancy.
So I had all these little thingsthat I was doing that were proof
that I pulled it together andhigh functioning.
(43:38):
I had all these little tricksthat just justified my drinking.
You lie about your story andyour drinking so long.
With all of that going on for solong, it was brought to your
attention by your husband.
Did you realize it?
Was there a particular eventthat made you say, you know
(43:58):
what?
I think I have a problem.
I ended up going to a therapist.
She was not an addictiontherapist.
She was lovely, but she was veryconservative.
And I remember her saying to me,were you drinking when that
happened?
And I got really annoyed.
(44:19):
And I said to her, I'm alwaysdrinking.
You don't have to ask me, was Idrinking or not drinking?
So when I tell you a story, justassume I'm drinking.
We don't have to discuss itevery time.
So she was like, do you thinkthat is normal?
I was so offended by herquestioning that whole thing.
(44:39):
Well, I do think that whetherit's conscious or unconscious,
there's a time where it soundslike you're almost defending or
protecting the alcoholism orprotecting your wanting to
drink.
Yeah, I don't know a singleaddict or alcoholic that doesn't
have that because that really isthe crux of when I talk about a
(45:00):
hijacked brain.
In your brain, it's hijacked bydrugs or alcohol.
That really is the crux.
Your brain is protecting thataddiction above all else.
And so the idea that you wouldquit, it's just really crazy.
And you get very defiant.
(45:21):
And I think one of thedifferences between an addiction
therapist and a regulartherapist is that when somebody
does decide to quit drinking orquit drug use, we do a
tremendous amount of grief andloss work around alcohol and
drugs.
Like you are mourning the lossof that best friend that was
(45:46):
always there for you, right?
Like you had that aboveeverything else and now it's
gone.
And so you really have to dogrief and loss work around
alcohol losing your addictionbecause life is suddenly very
scary.
One thing I've heard you say islike asking an alcoholic to stop
(46:09):
drinking is almost like askingthem to lose something that they
really love.
And you said something likeasking a mother to stop talking
or seeing their children.
And that really struck mebecause I can't ever imagine
doing that.
But It was an example of thestrong pull that alcohol has for
(46:32):
the alcoholic.
And now you're also saying thatthis was something that you
relied on to help you getthrough things.
And now you don't have that.
So now what do you do?
What do you do?
It's a tricky thing.
And I tell people who areconsidering drinking or leaving
(46:52):
drugs, it's a hard sell.
And I tell people, all the timethat I am a hopeless romantic
when it comes to recovery.
I believe it's possible foreverybody, but it is a really
hard sell because things aregoing to get a lot worse before
they get better.
(47:13):
Just even chemically, you'regoing to have a huge dip in
dopamine, serotonin,norepinephrine, all these
chemicals in your brain.
When you're drinking it, Itcomes to the point where that's
the only thing that's giving youdopamine is the drink.
You might go to a birthdayparty, but really what you're
(47:34):
enjoying is that you're able todrink at that birthday party.
So to try to convince somebodythat they're going to lose
access to dopamine, serotonin,norepinephrine, well, those are
serious things.
So you're likely going to gointo a pretty mild or deep
depression.
(47:55):
and lots of anxiety when thatdrink goes away.
Your relationships are likelygoing to get worse before they
get better.
Your sleep is going to be worsebefore it gets better.
Your thoughts are going to beworse before they get better.
So that's why I think it'sreally important to work with an
addiction therapist or asponsor.
(48:17):
Sponsors are amazing.
They do all that for free.
So they can normalize what'sgoing on in your brain.
I mean, how were you able to getthrough that period and finally
get convinced to stop drinking?
So I did 30 movies in 30 days.
A lot of people do 30 meetingsin 30 days, but I just really
(48:38):
hunkered down.
I closed the drapes in my houseand just watched a lot of movies
and had mild detox symptoms,sweating at night and probably
raised blood pressure.
And I was just cranky.
I didn't really know what I wasdoing.
There's no medication or anykind of things to support you?
Now, if I had the options that Iknow now, I didn't know anything
(49:03):
when this happened.
I'm coming up on 11 years.
So...
If I were to do it now, I wouldhave gone to rehab.
Rehab is great.
I don't think it's the answerfor everybody, but you get
pretty intense psychoeducation.
They get you involved with AAand whether or not you love AA
or you hate AA, at least you'reexposed to it in rehab.
(49:27):
And you have a support system inrehab that are taking you to
those meetings.
So I would have done rehab and Iwould have gone there.
likely on Welbutrin, whichtargets specifically dopamine.
I would have gone to AAmeetings.
I would have found an addictiontherapist.
I would have gotten a sponsor.
And that would have been sogreat.
(49:49):
But many people just don't knowwhat the hell they're doing.
That's why it's important toshare your story because there
are a lot of people out therethat think they can do it
themselves and some can.
But like you said, if you hadthe choice looking back, Why not
have support?
Why not have guidance?
This is all information thatwould make things smoother.
(50:10):
You know, applaud you for yourpersistence because it's a rough
road to come back.
You were drinking regularly andyou were probably a different
person.
Your personality might havechanged during that versus you
being sober.
Is that true?
It's a tough one.
So the feedback that I get frommy husband is that When I was
(50:33):
drinking, I was mean.
Because when I'm sober, I'malways on the verge of being
mean anyway.
It's really something that Ihave to manage.
There's a toughness about methat needs to be managed.
And it's unmanageable whenyou're drinking.
So if you have extraco-occurring disorders, as we
(50:55):
call them in my world,co-occurring disorder would be A
personality disorder likenarcissism or a mood disorder
like anxiety, depression,bipolar.
If you are drinking, you arejust those things.
So if you are a drinkingborderline, you are beyond
borderline personality disorder.
(51:16):
That's all you are and nobodycan see anything else.
If you tend to be a depressedperson and you are drinking, you
are a depressed person.
These are things that you cannotmanage while you're drinking.
And it's a tricky thing.
So that's why people are like,oh, can I do harm reduction and
just drink a little bit?
(51:37):
I don't know.
Do you want to be an assholejust a little bit of the time?
You've done a lot of familytherapy with addiction.
And there are people that haveto deal with addicts that are
like Wesley and his wife that isongoing.
And there may not be a solution.
What is some advice that you cangive family members or loved
(51:59):
ones that love the addict as faras trying to keep up their
mental health?
We'll go specifically withmothers right now and their
addicted children.
Normally by the time that theyget to me, they've been in and
out of rehabs.
They've done all the familygroups.
They've gone to Al-Anon.
So normally by the time that youget to me, they're just tired.
(52:21):
And when we talk about what todo, And everybody wants
boundaries to be black andwhite.
And here's the line in the sand,and this is what I'm doing.
And very typically, boundariesare not black and white.
You can draw the line in thesand, but then something
happens.
So you got to reevaluate yourboundary, which is why it's
(52:41):
really important to have atherapist in your corner so you
can discuss how does that makeyou feel.
A lot of times we discuss threethings.
And we talk about what themental health perspective is,
what the perspective is from amother and a parent, and what
the perspective is from Al-Anon.
And those aren't always the sameperspective.
(53:03):
I love Al-Anon, but Al-Anon canbe black and white, right?
They're all about detachinglovingly and trying to figure
out how to do that.
So a lot of the questions that Ihave with a mother in therapy
is, if that is your decision andthat is your boundary, will you
be able to sleep?
That's the biggest thing is, areyou going to be able to sleep
(53:25):
tonight?
You know, if somebody comes toyou and they're just at the
beginning of their journey witha loved one who they believe has
an addiction, what is someadvice that you could give them
as far as the attitude youshould have with the situation?
So in the beginning, I'm reallyabout not giving them money.
(53:49):
and not enabling in that way.
And so we really go through thebills of, okay, you're paying
for their car and their carinsurance.
And so what are we willing to dohere?
And maybe not cutting it offimmediately, but like maybe
bringing in the child.
And when I say child, I'mtalking about literally like a
25 year old.
(54:09):
I mean, but they're acting likechildren.
So trying to figure out thefinancial plan Because if you're
giving your 25-year-old child$2,000 a month to live, that
would be rent, cell phone, food,right?
You're not going to becomfortable just taking that
$2,000 away.
(54:30):
So we've come up with afinancial plan of what are we
going to do?
How are we going to sleep?
How are we going to feelcomfortable reducing that$2,000?
And also communicatingeffectively with that person,
this is the plan, this is whatwe're going to do.
So just so you know that this iscoming.
You're talking about enabling.
I think loved ones in theirquest to try and help may not
(54:54):
realize that they're enabling incertain ways.
Oh, absolutely.
So getting sober for anyone orharm reduction is always about
negative consequences.
Most people are not going tohave the consciousness to be
like, oh, I'm really strugglingwith anxiety and depression.
I need to quit drinking.
That's not a big enough negativeconsequence.
(55:15):
We need to see other things likerelationships deteriorating,
losing a job, losing yourhousing, people coming up with
boundaries, right?
You're not invited to mybirthday party because you
hijacked the party and thepolice come.
These are negative consequencesfor people.
So they start to feel a littlebit more uncomfortable.
(55:38):
And when you give somebody$2,000a month, What's the negative
consequence on that one?
There's no reason to go get ajob.
I think that's probably one ofthe hardest things for a loved
one is being able to watch thishappen and to stand back from
it.
(55:59):
As a loved one, whether it's aspouse or sister or a mother,
you want to protect that personfrom the badness that could
happen from their addiction.
I don't know.
That's so hard, but it's reallyimportant.
You know, I wanted to ask youabout something that Wesley
said.
He believes alcoholics drinkbecause they're feeling a lot of
(56:20):
emotion and they're scared ofbeing vulnerable.
What do you think of thisbelief?
I would totally agree with that.
I specifically am an attachmenttherapist.
So I believe that drinking andusing comes from attachment
disorder and not properlyattaching to a parent or maybe
(56:42):
your mother was an alcoholic ormaybe your dad left at a young
age or maybe it's not that clearcut.
Maybe it's just that you went tomiddle school and everybody
hated you or you had theperception that everybody hated
you and so you didn't feelattached to community.
Caregivers, there's a hole inyou and you're unable to
(57:06):
continually connect or maybe notat all connect to persons,
places or things, butspecifically persons.
So you're just like feeling oddman out at a party or maybe
everybody's laughing at the jokeand you don't get it.
Or maybe you're in arelationship, but you can't
(57:26):
quite connect with your partner.
And the drinking is aboutfilling that hole.
And some people fill it withgambling.
Some people fill it with sex orporn or shopping or work, food.
These are all things that wefill our attachment hole.
And that will help us getthrough the moment or the day or
(57:49):
the week.
Most people have to continuallyfill that hole every single day.
And that is about feelings andnot being vulnerable.
So you really have to removethose things that you're filling
your hole with to try to figureout what the shit is going on.
When you said that it brought tolight that the choice for the
(58:12):
alcoholic really is, do I facethese feelings that I really
don't want to face that arehurtful, painful, angry,
whatever it is, or do I continueto drink and just not do that?
That's right.
And it's pretty apparent to methat the answer is usually just
(58:33):
continue to drink.
It's a really badass, courageousthing to do is to get sober.
But when you're doing it, itcertainly doesn't feel that way.
Yeah, a lot of persistence, alot of discipline.
So I applaud you for that.
My last question is, how hasyour life improved since Now
(58:56):
that you don't have alcohol inyour life or the addiction.
It's just night and day.
Like my full-time hobby is mymental health.
Because as I did get sober, ofcourse, the real problems came
up.
Those are all things that youcan learn to do in sobriety
because you have consciousnessand awareness and mindfulness.
(59:17):
But these are decisions that Imake in sobriety and not being
things that were modeled to mewhen I was growing up.
So not being passive aggressive,not being critical, not being
blaming.
And these are things that youchoose.
So it's all different, not tosound too hokey, but it's a
spiritual practice.
Some days you have better daysthan other days.
(59:40):
Like I don't have the answer,but I'm working on the answers
as they come.
And those are all things thatyou can only do if you're not
using chemicals.
So it's totally different.
Not to sound too jaded, but whenpeople come to me, I say, you're
fucked if you're sober andyou're fucked if you're not
(01:00:00):
sober, but you're way lessfucked.
A big thank you to our musicalguest Wesley Schultz of The
Lumineers and our mental healthexpert, Carrie Abernathy.
For more information on TheLumineers and Wesley Schultz,
visit thelumineers.com, catchThe Lumineers on tour starting
February 2022, and follow TheLumineers on their socials at
(01:00:22):
The Lumineers.
Stay tuned to listen to a clipof The Lumineers' new number one
single, Bright Side, from theiralbum of the same name, at the
end of our episode.
For more information on CarrieAbernathy, visit
arborhousefriends.com and followCarrie on Facebook at Arbor
House Friends.
(01:00:42):
So until next time, be brave,ask for help, and be persistent
in finding the mental health
SPEAKER_02 (01:00:55):
that you need.
Alone on a freeway Check
SPEAKER_01 (01:01:22):
Your Head Podcast is kindly supported and partnered
with Sweet Relief MusiciansFund, DBSA San Gabriel Valley,
Earshot Media, and and LemonTree Studios in Los Angeles.
Visit checkyourheadpodcast.comwhere we have over 100 solutions
for mental health.
Be our friends on social mediaat Check Your Head Podcast.
(01:01:43):
Watch us on YouTube and supportus with a kind donation on
checkyourheadpodcast.com.
Check Your Head Podcast issponsored by a 501c3 nonprofit
with all donations being taxdeductible.
Thank you for your support andthank you for listening.
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