July 25, 2022 • 40 mins
2 204
Kris Hall, the founder of the Burnt Chef Project, joins us to discuss his work in making the hospitality industry a safer and more sustainable place for everyone. Hear how the project makes a difference and learn what you can do to support their efforts.
"To understand that if something doesn't sit right with you, that's okay, and no one else can tell you otherwise. You've got to live with yourself. It's okay not to be okay"
Kris Hall is the founder of the Burnt Chef Project, a nonprofit social enterprise working to make the hospitality industry safer and more sustainable for everyone. Kris has worked in hospitality for over ten years and has seen firsthand the challenges that hospitality professionals face.
The Burnt Chef Project offers free online training, support services, and independent business reviews to help hospitality professionals thrive.
This is Kriss Hall's story...
I'm Kris Hall, the founder of the Burnt Chef Project. Our goal is to make the hospitality industry a safer and more sustainable place for everyone to work in. We do this by challenging the stigma around mental health, raising awareness for mental health issues, and providing support services.
The hospitality industry has been through a lot in the past year, but I believe this is a unique opportunity to address some of the systemic issues that have been holding us back for a long time. I'm encouraged by the chefs who are already making changes in their workplaces, and I hope we can continue to make progress in creating a healthier and more sustainable industry for everyone.
In this episode, you will learn the following:
1. The Burnt Chef Project's mission is to make the hospitality industry safer and more sustainable for everyone.
2. The impact of COVID-19 on the hospitality industry and the challenges faced by those working in it.
3. The importance of having clear core values in order to create a successful business.
Resources:
The Burnt Chef Project Surveys
Chapter Summaries:
1) Kris Hall is the founder of the burnt chef project. Chris got a t-shirt from the project. The money raised goes to a good cause. Chris often gets called out for being an overweight 60-year-old driving fast Ferraris. But he's not.
2) The Burnt Chef Project is a nonprofit social enterprise based in the UK and operating internationally. Its aim is to make the hospitality industry safer and more sustainable. It's been going on for about two years now. It challenges the stigma attached to mental health issues within hospitality as a result of high levels of stress and poor operational setup.
3) Covet put a lot of people out of work in the hospitality industry. But it's a unique time for the industry. The Burnt Chef Project was started because there were fewer people in the profession. People were leaving the industry at a much earlier age and had problems with their health.
4) Kris worked in some busy bars on the south coast of the UK in Costa del Bournemouth. He also worked in business consulting for the travel industry. He was a sales development guy for the mechanical engineering sector and worked in the large corporate insurance sector. About ten years ago, he fell into hospitality from a food wholesale supply point of view. And he was supplying some of the best Michelin Star restaurants on the south coast.
5) His new podcast talks about his core values and how they helped him overcome depression and self-harm. He also talks about the importance of having the well-being of the staff as a business. Core Value he would like to see more companies talk about their core values in their job applications. According to her, being transparent and honest is a core value that she also instills in her...
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kris (00:04):
You can work 60 hours a week and be perfectly healthy and have a good sense of
wellbeing and a strong sense of purpose.
If your leadership team.
Is treating you as a unique individualand that you feel valued and that you
feel safe and that you feel secure andthat you have, you know, creativity
being inspired within you on a dailybasis, and that you feel that it's
(00:27):
okay to fail and make mistakes.
And you know that there's gonna besomeone there to pick you up, dust
you off, teach you the right skills tobuild your resilience and move forward.
Just saying that by switchingeveryone onto four day working
weeks is gonna solve the problem.
It's not if inherently yourculture is wrong and your
management style of is wrong.
Adam (00:46):
That's Chris hall, the founder of the burnt chef project.
And on this episode of chef life radio,he joins us to discuss his work in making
the hospitality industry a safer andmore sustainable place for everyone.
Hear how the project is makinga difference and learn what you
can do to support their efforts.
This is chef life radio, serving chefs,just like you who wanna enjoy their
(01:11):
careers without sacrificing their lives.
I'm your host, Adam Lamb.
And over my 30 year career, as a chefand hospitality, professional, I've
coached and mentored thousands ofculinary who led lives of contribution
community and authentic leadership.
Let me be your guide on this journeytogether, looking for solutions and
perspectives to some of the biggest issuesimpacting the hospitality industry, our
(01:31):
lives and our careers today, we shall and.
Back to the show.
So today we're very, very, veryexcited to be able to speak to
Chris hall, the founder of theburnt chef project, something
that is near and dear to my heart.
As you know, for those of you who arelistening, you can't probably see, but
(01:53):
I got the fuck stigma t-shirt, whichcame from the burnt chef project.
And I'm really, reallyhappy that you're here, man.
Thank you very muchfor having me and yeah.
Thanks for supporting us withthe, with the merchandise as well.
It's great to see it in, in foreign lands.
Well, it all goes to a good cause, right?
Kris (02:11):
Yeah, exactly.
I mean, it's a, I often get called outfor being a, you know, an overweight
60 year old driving, fast Ferrari.
And as you can clearly see by boththe environment I'm sat in and,
and the way that I look I'm noneof those things and the be the beat
up master outside is, uh, yeah.
Is definitely not the Ferrari, butyou know, every everything, every
(02:34):
last penny that's generated by thisproject goes directly into doing
exactly what it says on the tin.
And.
You know, supporting the industry,making it healthier and more
sustainable for everyone really.
Adam (02:45):
Right.
So if this is the first time anylistener is actually hearing about
the Bern chef project, can youkind of give us a thumbnail sketch
of what the project is about?
Kris (02:55):
Yeah, certainly.
So the burn chef project it's beengoing for about two years now, it
is a non-profit social enterpriseor a not-for-profit organization.
Based in the UK, but operatinginternationally now, but the sole
purpose of ensuring that the hospitalityindustry is a safer and more sustainable
(03:17):
industry for us all to work in.
And we do that through challengingthe stigma attached specifically
to mental health, raising awarenessfor mental health issues within
hospitality, as a result of high levelsof stress and poor operational setups.
and the stoic macho culture thatwe've either grown to love or
(03:39):
grown to LOA within hospitality.
And we do that through a range ofdifferent initiatives, including
merchandise to raise awareness andfunds through free online training,
through the be chef academy, throughsupport services, such as the Bern
chef support service over in the UK.
We've got a small extensionover in America and Canada.
And yeah, you know, much, much moreto come life coaches, additional
(04:04):
support services, independentbusiness reviews for wellbeing.
The, the list keeps growing,but, uh, we're far, far from
done at this moment in time.
Adam (04:14):
It is amazing what you've been able to put together in two years.
And the resources on thewebsite are just incredible.
I was blown away by everything that youguys had to offer, and it seems like that
there's a, that this is a very uniquetime in our industry for lots of different
reasons, primarily because, you know,COVID kind of stripped away all the.
(04:36):
All the facade and, youknow, put people out of work.
Those that stayed like me in theindustry for the last two years, it
was probably the biggest challengeI've ever had to manage, you know,
running a, a dining service in a,in a retirement community center.
And so there's 650 people thatI have to try to manage their
(04:56):
expectations throughout this everchanging, ever evolving environment.
Plus, you know, the 120staff that reported to me.
You know, from any particularday were, were either okay.
Or they were having really,really hard, hard issues.
So the fact that COVID came along,I think is a blessing in disguise.
(05:17):
I mean, I know that there's loss andtragedy involved in that, but for
the industry, I think it's a uniqueopportunity, as I said, and I keep
calling it the great reset, you know,regardless of what anybody says.
So it's a unique opportunity to.
Address a lot of the systematic issuesthat have been there for a long time.
And we thought, and I mean, weas chefs and folks who had been
(05:39):
hired in the industry and kind offelt like we didn't really have
any opportunity to change things.
I think this, this isa really unique time.
Kris (05:47):
Yeah, definitely.
And I, I take no solace or.
Pleasure in saying that COVID has helpedus with our message because the whole
point of the Bern chef project was thatwe noticed that numbers were dwindling
within our great, great profession.
And I've stopped calling it in industry.
Now I call it a profession becausethat's exactly what it should be.
(06:11):
And that's what our goal is, is to makethis a recognized profession of skilled.
Crafts men and women around the world.
But we noticed that, you know, collegesup uptake were, were dwindling.
People were leaving the industry at amuch earlier age because they weren't,
(06:32):
you know, they weren't thriving.
If you saw a, a head chef or anexec chef at the age of sort of 35
or 40, then you were doing prettywell that, you know, people weren't
having a sustained career, but COVID.
Thrust all of us in, in the worldinto a, a highly anxious state, but it
(06:54):
also gave hospitality professionals anopportunity for the first time in their
life to re grasps what it is to be humanand what it is to have a life and to
connect with family, to connect with the,the core things that are important within.
(07:15):
Us as animals lives, you know, and that'staken a big impact on the industry and
it's also taken a big impact on people'sway of thinking and their perceptions.
And yeah, it's been, it's been achallenging time adjusting to that
time off, but also now having to adjustto going back into those old systems
(07:36):
from a SC from the late 19th century,whereby nothing really has changed a
great deal from that militant system.
Yeah,
Adam (07:44):
it's interesting that you mentioned, you know, the old brigade
system and kind of the militaristicway that the brigade is set up.
And it's very unfortunate that asthe economies around the world are
starting to open up, guests are reallyexcited to, to get back into community
and relationship with each other.
And they're using the restaurantsinto cafes and the pubs as their
(08:05):
focal point without necessarilyrealizing the challenge that.
We've been dealing withfor the past 15, 16 months.
But now as everybody reopens, Iclearly remember when it went from,
you know, lockdown to in person dining.
I was crazy stressed and, you know, keptpushing back and like, we're not ready.
(08:26):
We're not ready.
We're not ready.
We're not ready.
And at some point you have tobe, and I'm a member of a lot
of chef groups on Facebook.
I don't necessarily post much, but Iwatch the comments very, very closely.
And some folks are really at theend of their stamina, dealing
with these increased covercounts and much reduced staff.
(08:49):
I think that's more a comment thana question, but Chris, if I could
just kind of get your perspective.
You worked with the hospitalityindustry in what capacity?
Kris (08:59):
So I've whilst I've worked in hospitality myself, I worked in some
busy bars on the south coast of, of theUK in Costa Del Bourmouth, which is one
of our busiest tourists destinations.
So I, I spent two years working as a,as a bar manager for a really, really
busy pub, you know, where you look upand it's you feel sick to the stomach
because it's been four deep for.
(09:22):
Fucking hours
Adam (09:24):
and everybody's raised in their empty glass, right?
Oh
Kris (09:27):
everyone.
And it's one of these places where theywere serving cheap alcohol as well.
So, you know, what sort ofclientele you've got coming in?
Mm.
But my background's actually in a plethoraof different industries, I've worked in.
Business consulting forthe travel industry.
I was a sales development guy formechanical engineering sector.
I've worked in large corporateinsurance sector as well.
(09:48):
So I've worked in a lot of differentindustries, but for me, about 10 years
ago, I fell into hospitality from afood wholesale supply point of view.
And I was supply in someof the best Michelin star
restaurants in the south coast.
And I was immediatelystruck by the demeanor.
(10:08):
Of a kitchen environment, the waythat it was run the respect, the.
Just there was something about it thatgot to me that combined with the fact
that I was working with ingredients thatI'd never even heard of before, like
Peruvian yams and, you know, I'd, I'd,I'd established what a finger line was.
And over in the UK, wedon't get finger lines.
(10:30):
We were reporting them from Australia and,you know, I was playing with thousands
of pounds worth of Albert truffles.
It for me, I was justcompletely absorbed by the fact.
We had this, these seasonsthat were ever changing.
We had these creative individuals thatI was getting an opportunity to work
with where I could not only fuel my ownpassion for these ingredients and for
(10:54):
the industry, but I could also inspirethe people that I was working with, my,
my clients, if you'd like, but I couldinspire their creativity and that, and
there was something about that that reallysort of, you know, really spoke to me.
What did
Adam (11:07):
you discover through the process?
Like what are your core values that you.
Kind of touch on right now.
Kris (11:13):
It's bloody good question.
A very good question.
I like that a lot.
No one's ever asked me thatbefore, other than that cognitive
Adam (11:20):
therapist.
Well, and here's, here's the reason Iask is that I recognize that in my own
life, without specific core values,about what contribution I want to
make, what kind of life I want to live.
If I can't continue to come back to.
For lack of a better word, missionstatement and touch those core values.
Then it's easy for me to get kind of sideswiped and pushed over by other people's
(11:44):
opinions or, or my boss or whatever.
And, you know, the last couple years wasvery, very difficult for me in regards to
my, my relationship with my direct report.
And it caused me to do a lotof work and go a lot of places.
And I voluntarily left my positionbecause to put it, frankly, I wanted to.
(12:05):
Relaunch this podcast, because I thoughtthis was the absolute right time to do it.
And I've just gotten so not gonnaget so tired, but I've gotten so
dismayed at, at every day, goingthrough these Facebook groups.
And there's another picture of a youngchef who took his own life and having
been on the brink several times myself.
(12:27):
I understand what that looks like.
So the mission of the podcast is verysimple, you know, not, not one more.
Not on my watch, whateverI can do to do that.
And that's what helps me to get up and go.
And I think for a lot of people outthere, especially culinary professionals
who are consumed with creating foodand using food is their expression.
(12:49):
They don't really haveany other core values.
Other than that.
And I would love to be ableto see job postings now.
By employers and organizations thatactually talk about their core values
first in those first three or four lines.
So someone could actually look at thatand say, do I align with that or not?
I was listening to the latest podcastthat you did with that young man
(13:11):
who, you know, continually foundhimself in these situations where,
you know, people said they weregonna do something and they didn't.
And you know, he persevered, but.
That takes a lot of grit and Moxi,and it kind of wears you down.
So I would love for you to, you know,talk to us about, you know, what you
discovered about your core values.
Kris (13:31):
Yeah.
I'm and again, you know,fantastic question.
And just to go back to what you'resaying about job applications and
businesses, I, 100% believe that anyonewho wants to have a successful business.
Needs to focus on the wellbeing oftheir staff as paramount, and to always
have pillars, foundations, core values,principles, whatever you want to call
(13:57):
them, the things that are intrinsicas exposed as opposed to extrinsic.
So, you know, it is not about the factthat we want to be the biggest and
most profitable company in the world.
It's about the fact that we value.
Our employees and we want them tobe healthy and happy and safe and,
(14:18):
you know, to be courageous, withoutfear of fear of falling, you know,
and if they do fall it's okay.
Right.
You know, so for me, it all started.
And I won't go into a long spiel,but when I was 18, I'd experienced
a really heavy bout of depression.
And I didn't know it until later onafter cognitive behavioral therapy,
(14:39):
but it bedridden me it, you know, it,it, I was self-harming, I was paranoid.
I wouldn't get out of bed.
I was in tears every single day.
Didn't know what the hellwas going on with me.
Just thought I wasn't long for this world.
And eventually I.
Took a step outside of the bed.
And then I took a step outside of thebedroom and I built myself up over
a period of years, just through, Iguess what you call it from a clinical
(15:02):
perspective, exposure therapy.
I just exposed myself bit by bitto life and to, to push myself, you
know, but I'm, unfortunately duringthat journey, I learned a bad habit
and that bad habit was in order forme to fit in, in social situations.
I had to completely change who I was to.
(15:23):
What people expected me to be.
Now, I remember that day as clear as itwas yesterday, because I knew that at that
point, that decision would've cost me.
And it wasn't until I was sat inthat cognitive behavioral therapy.
And she turned around and said,well, when, when was it that you
felt like you couldn't be yourself?
(15:43):
And I thought I can tell you exactlywhen it was when I was 17 or 18.
And so what I'd realized I'd beendoing over all the years was I had
been, and I think that at this timesomething had sat uncomfortably
with me that disagreed with me.
I swallowed it down and I brought it backup as, yeah, I completely agree with you.
(16:04):
You're 100% bright.
Yeah, no, I, I am an idiot.
Yeah, no, whatever you say.
I, yeah, a hundred percent.
I was agreeable.
So one of my first corevalues that I established.
don't always be agreeable.
Now.
It doesn't mean you have to be a Dick.
You don't have to go around and chip chipoff your shoulder and say you are wrong.
(16:26):
I'm right.
This is the way it's gotta be.
But yeah, to understand that if somethingdoesn't sit right with you that's okay.
And no one else can tell you otherwise.
You've got to live with yourself.
You feel you, you exist in this world.
And so that if you feel that there'ssomething that doesn't agree.
(16:47):
If someone says something, or if there'sa certain action towards you by your
employer or by someone that you know,or even a friend or family member that
it's okay to speak up and to voice that.
So that was one of my things.
Another thing was to be transparent.
So for me, I am astransparent as possible.
(17:10):
And to the point where I often saythings completely transparently.
And honestly that I shouldn't, because itwill either get me into trouble or it'll
get, you know, someone else into trouble.
But I have I've, I've tolda few white lies in my time,
but I will always be open and.
That's one of the reasons why I did sowell from a sales perspective, because
(17:32):
I walk into a kitchen and some, youknow, a share for client of mine would
be like, yo, you know, you've fuckingfucked up this order, blah, blah, blah.
And I'd be like, do you know what?
Hands up?
100% it was me.
I messed up.
But here's what I'll doto rectify it for you.
So being transparent, being honest, beingaccountable as well, you know, taking
responsibility because at the same time,you know, someone who's, if you're hiding
(17:56):
all the time, Then it's just gonna comeand bite you in the ass at some stage.
Yeah.
You know, again, not being afraidto speak up and I guess wanting to.
Help other people enrich other people'slives and to make a tangible change.
This isn't the ego, but I like the factthat actually I'm making a difference,
(18:19):
even if no one ever says, thank you.
I don't need thanks.
I think that just to know thatsomeone out there has potentially
been saved as a result of the factthat we exist and we might never ever
hear about it, that's enough for me.
And, and, and I think, yeah,that, that for me is, is a
core value that I not only.
(18:40):
Practice on a daily basis, but I alsoinstill into my children now as well.
Adam (18:45):
First off, I just wanted to say that I really appreciate the fact that
you bring an outside perspective, notnecessarily an outside perspective,
but a different perspective thansomeone who's actually doing the grind.
So can you talk a little bitabout those things that you've
seen both to cause you to.
Create the be chef project.
(19:05):
And some of the things that you seenow that give you encouragement.
Yeah.
I
Kris (19:10):
mean, crikey, where to begin.
where to begin.
Let's get, let's get something straight.
You know, the, the, the subject of mentalhealth and high stress and wellbeing,
it's a, it it's deemed as a negativeconversation because it's pointing out all
the things that are currently wrong, but.
(19:32):
It shouldn't be, these are things that canbe resolved and that need to be addressed.
And for years we've just been turninga blind eye to them and accepting
them terms like it is the way it is.
This is just the industry.
It'll never change.
Customers need to pay more,that that will fix this.
I need to be paid more.
That will fix it.
(19:52):
These are the sort ofthings that drive me.
You know, there's a number of things inthere that, that need addressing the.
There's a big, I'm speaking to somequite high name chefs over in the
UK who are contacting me going.
I've made changes tomy workplace practices.
(20:12):
Right?
That's fantastic.
What is it?
Well, I used to work my staffseven days a week, but now I've
put them on four day working weeks.
They do 55 hours in four days, ratherthan 65 hours in six, seven days.
And they're not happy.
So, okay, that's fine.
So there's this big, theseconversations keep coming up.
(20:33):
There's this big conversationaround worklife balance.
So everyone automatically feels thatthey have to go and reduce the number
of days that people working to give themmore time off, but also work them harder
during the days that they are working.
That's a great solution forabout a third of the workforce.
You know, the third of the workforcethat are perhaps okay with doing
(20:54):
those long hours that have thedrive and have the passion.
But it's not okay for the youngergeneration who perhaps want to
work and hone their skill set.
That's not okay for the people whoperhaps have family lives and aren't
able to, you know, to work their schoolpickups and other things around that.
(21:15):
And I think what we've, we've perhapsbecome a little bit the be chef
project's done a great job of, ofraising awareness through studies that
this is a, a key topic of conversation.
But I think that perhaps wehave become a little bit too.
Well, this is a quick fix.
So this is what we need to do.
And we've actually forgettingthe bigger picture.
So you can work 60 hours a week and beperfectly healthy and have a good sense
(21:41):
of wellbeing and strong sense of purpose.
If your leadership team.
Is treating you as a unique individualand that you feel valued and that you
feel safe and that you feel secure andthat you have, you know, creativity
being inspired within you on a dailybasis, and that you feel that it's
okay to fail and make mistakes.
And you know that there's gonna besomeone there to pick you up, dust
(22:04):
you off, teach you the right skills tobuild your resilience and move forward.
So.
Just saying that by switchingeveryone onto four day working
weeks is gonna solve the problem.
It's not if inherently your culture iswrong and your management style is wrong.
And that does bring meonto one of the key areas.
And, you know, I'm a nonprofitrather than the charities.
So what it means is that I can'ttake any profits as a, as a director.
(22:27):
I can take a very small amount profits.
Everything is asset locked.
So I don't own it's asset lockedby, you know, a charity partner.
But what it does mean is that I canstart to put in place solutions.
So the merchandise raisesawareness, it starts conversation.
We're also building trainingmodules to address the other big
issue, which is skill gap shortage.
Because one thing that I'd noticed,so I was 20 years of age working
(22:54):
for a large insurance company,national insurance company in the.
and I had been fully trained, six monthsworth of management training to manage
a team of 10, where three of my oldestmembers of my team was 50, 60 years
old waiting for retirement mm-hmm . Anda load of my youngest members of my
team were 17, 18 fresh outta school.
(23:16):
Didn't really know, youknow, ask from their elbow.
But my job was to.
Using the skill sets that I'vebeen provided work with these
individuals to make sure that theywas maximizing their potential.
Now, the key thing in that story is thefact that I was trained for six months.
I was trained in coaching ad hoccoaching, regular performance reviews,
(23:39):
the right sort of language to use, youknow, the open questioning to be able
to inspire people, to get to do things.
So over here, I call it bums on goalpost.
So obviously rugby posts over here are,uh, are giants right in the same similar
way that, so your American football posts.
Yeah.
Now, if you get a load of guys saton that post and you stand behind
(24:00):
them, their answers that like W's.
So one thing that I always sort oftell people and they want to inspire
people is get them to have a sayin the direction they're going in.
How, what, who, why, when.
Rather than are you gonna do thistoday or are you gonna do it tomorrow?
All of a sudden you've just strippedcontrol away from that individual.
(24:21):
You've given them a yes, yes.
Scenario.
They don't have a control over it.
They're gonna agree with something.
Whereas if you say, how arewe gonna achieve this goal?
What sort of time scales do you reckonwe're gonna do it in all of a sudden
they're like, I've got a say in this,you know, exactly the same result, just
done in a completely different way.
So one thing that we have in hospitalityis that we are all taught to be, you.
(24:44):
Have a, have a service, you know,be efficient, do things faster,
do things more skill, do them moreprofessionally, but we are never, ever,
ever taught or in very rare instancesto lead to effectively communicate.
And so what we have is low skillsskill set with regards to management,
man management, people communication.
(25:06):
Added to that.
You've got a high turnover of staffbecause ultimately your team don't
potentially want don't wanna work inthat environment for extended of time.
Mm-hmm . Now you've got yourhead chefs left your sous chefs.
Now your head chef, yourCDP is now your sous chef.
Your KP is now your CDP and at nostage, is that any of these, these
(25:28):
guys or girls learn the skill sets.
So it requires to be able tohave an effective, effective
team and be able to instigate.
So that for me is one of the key thingsis that we as an industry and, and one
thing that we are trying to take the leadon is actually we are saying, you know
what, in order to get better wellbeing,we need to be able to support individuals
(25:49):
with their own mental health issuesbecause they are there four out of five
people within hospitality have had amental health issue during their career.
But also at the same time, we needto be able to find free training.
So those who want it so thatwe can make you more effective.
We can ensure that you are looking afteryour team in a better way, and that your
communication, you, you are listeningthat your body language, that you are, you
(26:12):
know, even something like a performancereview or a one to one, you know, if
you say that word within a hospitalityenvironment, the first thing that happens
is someone goes, ah, I'm in trouble.
What have I done wrong?
Whereas in fact, actually, Itshouldn't be deemed as that.
And one to one is an opportunity where twopeople can sit down in an organization,
(26:33):
you can sit down with your boss or yourmanager and you say, how am I doing?
And they'll be like, yeah, well,how do you think you are doing?
Like, what is it that you want to work on?
Where can I help you further your career?
You know, what is it that, that we canidentify together and that we can work
on together to be able to achieve yourgoals, but also help me achieve mine
(26:56):
and fit into this organization and makeeverything a lot better for everyone.
Like how much better does that sound?
Adam (27:05):
Sounds exciting.
You know, in the last two yearswith everything that was going on.
One of the things that I was mostproudest of was creating a mentorship
program for hourly associates who wantedto get into management, you know, and
it was staggered and there were one onones and they were reading assignments
and all kinds of stuff like that.
A lot of it was about the softerskills rather than hard skills.
(27:25):
Although there was that too, andthere were actually two people
who went through it successfully,but this whole idea about.
Now all of a sudden everybody'smoving on and you have to fill
those positions because theoperation doesn't slow down yet.
They're not given the skillset inorder to do that, I think is a failing.
(27:45):
And that's one of the reasonsI'm fond of saying, I think
leadership is a red herring.
I think that word specificallyto the culinary industry.
Or the culinary craft is bullshitbecause really what people are looking
for is they're looking for mentorship.
They're looking for elbow to elbow,someone to support them, someone to,
(28:05):
you know, allow them to make failuresthat don't hurt the guests or anybody
else and create this environment wherethey can stretch themselves a little bit
so that they can actually get to know.
Their capacity.
And like you say, resilience,which I think is so undervalued.
And so I'm, I'm completely down, man.
You know, this whole idea of mentorshipdoesn't take any, any longer time.
(28:29):
You know, a lot of it happens elbow toelbow on the line as you're working right
next to one, another having these smallintimate conversations in the midst of
your entire day, that makes such a bigdifference to somebody on their way.
So, I guess it comes backto this idea of culture.
What kind of culture do you actuallywant to create within your environment?
(28:50):
What kind of communitydo you want to work in?
And ultimately, what kindof legacy do you wanna live?
Leave behind?
Because really, I thought all mycareer that my success or failure
as a chef would be how many otherchefs came outta my kitchen, you
know, that went on to succeed.
(29:11):
Not only.
With their food, but also creatingenvironments where people could, again,
kind of be crucibles of excellence,not through, you know, the fact that
we got all stepped through the fire,which we do, but that they always felt
that there was somebody that was gonnalisten to them and give them advice.
And, you know, I wasn't alwaysthis way but I like to think that
(29:35):
I smartened up pretty quickly.
So.
This whole idea about act as opposedto talk, I think is really important.
So can you talk about like theacademy and some of the trainings
that you guys are providing right now?
Kris (29:47):
Yeah, sure.
So as I say, awareness is our firstsort of pillar or my first pillar.
And, and can I just say, like we never,ever, ever thought that two years ago
I would be having conversations allaround the world about mental health.
I only ever wanted.
(30:08):
To, or only I want to do this, but Ionly ever set out to raise a thousand
pounds and raise a little bit ofawareness in my hometown and help a few
people with some mental health training.
What I didn't yeah.
Ever see was Pandora's box opening.
(30:31):
All of this start to flood outand then COVID hitting and feeling
like it was my moral obligationin duty to do something about it.
Yep.
So for me, the academy is a step onthat direction so that we can start
to help individuals with the problemsthey're experiencing, but that's all
(30:51):
very well and good, but it's likeputting a bandaid on a splinter.
It's still gonna be in there and unlessyou pull it out and you start to dress.
It's gonna just keep causing problems.
So the academy is a free app.
That's available on Google and Android.
It's also available online aswell, and you can register for
it for free through our website.
It provides free moduleson any subject that.
(31:17):
We as the be chef project.
And, and again, the burn chefproject gives you an impression
that there's a massive organization.
There's myself and my wifewho helps part-time and, and
a part-time marketing manager.
So everything that you see andthat, I think this is one of the key
things that I really want people tounderstand is everything that you
see about the burn chef project haspredominantly been built by one person
(31:40):
and supported by an entire industry.
I've had volunteers,I've had people come and.
But if ever you think that you are notcapable of doing something you bloody
are, your potential is limitless.
And even if you don't know how toget to your goal, start focusing
on that goal and start taking thesteps in the right direction, because
(32:01):
you are capable of so much morethan you ever thought was possible.
So the be chef modules are basicallymodules that I have put together.
That I feel addressed our overall goal,which is making the industry healthier
and more sustainable bear modules onpersonal resilience, stress management,
(32:23):
managing mental health in the workplace,effective communication there's modules
on there on mental health awarenessor managers, mental health awareness,
because it's important that we empowerour management teams to understand
what mental health issue looks like.
Most importantly, give them thecourage to be able to engage with
that conversation rather than justfear it like I did for many years.
(32:47):
And even the word suicide, youknow, is a word that still sits
deeply uncomfortable with me.
But it's important thatwe start talking about it.
We owe it to the people who areexperiencing these, these, these
experiences, these illnesses, to beable to say to them, we can talk to
you about it and we can do so safely.
You know, we can say to you,are you feeling suicidal?
(33:11):
You know, mm-hmm, open upthat conversation because
that's all in many cases.
You need to do in order to try andalleviate just even a minor bit, what
people are are going through more modulesare coming, you know, as soon as I
be, I can get enough revenue coming incapital so that I can start to expand
(33:31):
my team and free me up and also freeup some capital so that we can pay
more psychologists, more performance,psychologists, you know, more.
Experts to help me build these modules.
We will do.
But if we have modules planned on rotorplanning, you know, RO putting rotors
in place three months in advance, likemind blown, can you imagine knowing
(33:55):
in two weeks, three weeks, four weeks,five weeks time when your days off are,
and knowing that they're unlikely tochange, you know, modules on bullying.
How to spot it, identify and deal with it.
Sexual harassment, diversity training,you know, modules on performance reviews,
(34:16):
you know, how to hold a good performancereview to set tangible tasks so that
individuals know exactly where theystand with the organization, but also
gives them the ability to say wherethey want to go in an organization
and what they want to focus on.
You know?
My brain is so full of things thatI want to put onto this academy and
(34:38):
provide to free for the industry thatI am only limited by the two hands,
two legs, two eyes, and two earsthat I've got to be able to do it.
And this is the, this is the frustratingthing about the be chef project now
is that it, we have reached over 112countries across the world, 112 countries.
(35:01):
If there's anyone in Antarcticaat the moment, please, can you
like come and check us out?
Because at the momentyou're a big black hole.
My map , but genuinely like thereis so much good that we can provide,
but in order for us to do that,people need to be able to support
us so that we can support them.
And we'll continue to develop like I'm,as I say, I'm working on a network of
(35:22):
life coaches, an international networkof life coaches, so that individuals.
Individuals like yourself, youknow, can mentor across the entire
hospitality industry and help peoplefind their why find their core values
and find what it is they want toachieve in life and still have a happy,
(35:45):
healthy career within hospitality.
You know, it might be thatthey set up their own company.
It might be that they becomea producer and start sourcing
the finest strawberries.
Whatever it might be.
I think that sometimes we just need tobe able to talk to someone about it.
And so that's one of my long term goalsto increase their support service, the
(36:07):
immediate tech space support servicethat we offer to every country around the
world, do it in multinational languages.
Again, I can see pound and dollar signsin my head in terms of how much that
time and money that will cost, butit doesn't exist because people have
deemed it too difficult or too hard.
But.
By job, I'm gonna fucking do it.
(36:28):
I want to do it to be able to helpthe industry and it's achievable
just because it hasn't been done yet.
Doesn't mean it's not possible.
So there's, there's a lot more to come.
Adam (36:39):
I couldn't, I couldn't agree with you more, man.
Kris (36:41):
If, if you're interested in any, in, like for me, I studied
a little bit of psychologybefore I dropped out of college.
And one of the studies that alwayssits with the, was the Stanford experi.
Do go and check it out.
It doesn't absolve people ofthings that they've done in
their past, in the same way.
A criminal has stolen.
A thousand dollars from a shop hasstill stolen that a thousand dollars.
(37:04):
But if he's been in prison and he'scome out and he's, you know, he's
making a difference to people's lives,then you can't hold that over him.
But the Stanford experiment's reallyinteresting because what it does is it
takes two, two groups of students thatare, you know, they know each other
they're on good terms, puts 'em in aprison, split some down the middle one
group of wardens, one group of prisoners.
(37:25):
They had to call the experiment offwithin six days because the things
that the wardens were doing tothe prisoners were so heinous and
violating mm-hmm that it was seriouslylong-term damaging the, the prisoners.
And the interesting thing totake away from that is that we
are products, we're animals.
We are products of our environment.
So yes, you might have learned.
(37:47):
That in the past, it was okay to,you know, Brate, berate someone
and to drive them down and to makethem feel small and significant.
You think, you know, that's somethingthat you've learned as a learned behavior.
It doesn't mean that that's okay.
And the question is, what are you gonnado about that now to make up for it?
Adam (38:06):
I think that's a perfect place to leave it, Chris.
Thanks so much for your time.
As I said, consider me an ally for sure.
Thank.
That's it for this episodeof chef life radio.
If you enjoyed it, it made youthink laugh or get pissed off.
And please tell a friend, get ear free.
Copy of three ideas for lesschef dress by signing up for our
(38:28):
monthly newsletter at chef life.
radio.com forward slash signup here at chef life radio.
We believe that working in akitchen should be demanding.
It just shouldn't have to be demeaning.
It should be hard.
It just doesn't have to be harsh.
We believe that it's possible to havemore solidarity and less suck it up.
Sunshine, more compassion,less cutthroat island.
(38:48):
We believe in more partnershipand less put up more, shut up
more community and a lot less.
Fuck you finally.
Consider for a second where allthe blood, sweat, and sometimes
even tears, we put into what we doreally at the end of the day, that's
just some brown stuff on a plate.
None of it really matters.
It doesn't define you as aperson or make you any more
(39:09):
special or less than anyone else.
It's just a dance we're engaged in.
So we might as well laughand enjoy every bit of it.
Even the crappy parts while we're doingit, or didn't, you know, that the purpose
of your life should be to enjoy it.
Like it happy.
Kris (39:23):
I love you.
Love it.
I'm humble.
You God damn glory Foxwell.
Adam (39:27):
I don't live on now.
follow us@facebook.com.
Chef life, radio Twitter at cheflife radio on Instagram at chef
life radio and check out ourwebsite, chef life, radio.com.
Oh yes.
Chef stand tall and frosty brothersand sisters until next time be well.
And do good.
(39:48):
Leave the light on honey.
I'm coming home late.
This show was produced, recorded andedited by me, Adam Lamb at the dish
pit studios in Baro North Carolina.
This has been a productionof realignment video.
You can work 60 hours a week and be perfectly healthy and have a good sense of
wellbeing and a strong sense of purpose.
If your leadership team.
Is treating you as a unique individualand that you feel valued and that you
feel safe and that you feel secure andthat you have, you know, creativity
being inspired within you on a dailybasis, and that you feel that it's
(00:27):
okay to fail and make mistakes.
And you know that there's gonna besomeone there to pick you up, dust
you off, teach you the right skills tobuild your resilience and move forward.
Just saying that by switchingeveryone onto four day working
weeks is gonna solve the problem.
It's not if inherently yourculture is wrong and your
management style of is wrong.
Adam (00:46):
That's Chris hall, the founder of the burnt chef project.
And on this episode of chef life radio,he joins us to discuss his work in making
the hospitality industry a safer andmore sustainable place for everyone.
Hear how the project is makinga difference and learn what you
can do to support their efforts.
This is chef life radio, serving chefs,just like you who wanna enjoy their
(01:11):
careers without sacrificing their lives.
I'm your host, Adam Lamb.
And over my 30 year career, as a chefand hospitality, professional, I've
coached and mentored thousands ofculinary who led lives of contribution
community and authentic leadership.
Let me be your guide on this journeytogether, looking for solutions and
perspectives to some of the biggest issuesimpacting the hospitality industry, our
(01:31):
lives and our careers today, we shall and.
Back to the show.
So today we're very, very, veryexcited to be able to speak to
Chris hall, the founder of theburnt chef project, something
that is near and dear to my heart.
As you know, for those of you who arelistening, you can't probably see, but
(01:53):
I got the fuck stigma t-shirt, whichcame from the burnt chef project.
And I'm really, reallyhappy that you're here, man.
Thank you very muchfor having me and yeah.
Thanks for supporting us withthe, with the merchandise as well.
It's great to see it in, in foreign lands.
Well, it all goes to a good cause, right?
Kris (02:11):
Yeah, exactly.
I mean, it's a, I often get called outfor being a, you know, an overweight
60 year old driving, fast Ferrari.
And as you can clearly see by boththe environment I'm sat in and,
and the way that I look I'm noneof those things and the be the beat
up master outside is, uh, yeah.
Is definitely not the Ferrari, butyou know, every everything, every
(02:34):
last penny that's generated by thisproject goes directly into doing
exactly what it says on the tin.
And.
You know, supporting the industry,making it healthier and more
sustainable for everyone really.
Adam (02:45):
Right.
So if this is the first time anylistener is actually hearing about
the Bern chef project, can youkind of give us a thumbnail sketch
of what the project is about?
Kris (02:55):
Yeah, certainly.
So the burn chef project it's beengoing for about two years now, it
is a non-profit social enterpriseor a not-for-profit organization.
Based in the UK, but operatinginternationally now, but the sole
purpose of ensuring that the hospitalityindustry is a safer and more sustainable
(03:17):
industry for us all to work in.
And we do that through challengingthe stigma attached specifically
to mental health, raising awarenessfor mental health issues within
hospitality, as a result of high levelsof stress and poor operational setups.
and the stoic macho culture thatwe've either grown to love or
(03:39):
grown to LOA within hospitality.
And we do that through a range ofdifferent initiatives, including
merchandise to raise awareness andfunds through free online training,
through the be chef academy, throughsupport services, such as the Bern
chef support service over in the UK.
We've got a small extensionover in America and Canada.
And yeah, you know, much, much moreto come life coaches, additional
(04:04):
support services, independentbusiness reviews for wellbeing.
The, the list keeps growing,but, uh, we're far, far from
done at this moment in time.
Adam (04:14):
It is amazing what you've been able to put together in two years.
And the resources on thewebsite are just incredible.
I was blown away by everything that youguys had to offer, and it seems like that
there's a, that this is a very uniquetime in our industry for lots of different
reasons, primarily because, you know,COVID kind of stripped away all the.
(04:36):
All the facade and, youknow, put people out of work.
Those that stayed like me in theindustry for the last two years, it
was probably the biggest challengeI've ever had to manage, you know,
running a, a dining service in a,in a retirement community center.
And so there's 650 people thatI have to try to manage their
(04:56):
expectations throughout this everchanging, ever evolving environment.
Plus, you know, the 120staff that reported to me.
You know, from any particularday were, were either okay.
Or they were having really,really hard, hard issues.
So the fact that COVID came along,I think is a blessing in disguise.
(05:17):
I mean, I know that there's loss andtragedy involved in that, but for
the industry, I think it's a uniqueopportunity, as I said, and I keep
calling it the great reset, you know,regardless of what anybody says.
So it's a unique opportunity to.
Address a lot of the systematic issuesthat have been there for a long time.
And we thought, and I mean, weas chefs and folks who had been
(05:39):
hired in the industry and kind offelt like we didn't really have
any opportunity to change things.
I think this, this isa really unique time.
Kris (05:47):
Yeah, definitely.
And I, I take no solace or.
Pleasure in saying that COVID has helpedus with our message because the whole
point of the Bern chef project was thatwe noticed that numbers were dwindling
within our great, great profession.
And I've stopped calling it in industry.
Now I call it a profession becausethat's exactly what it should be.
(06:11):
And that's what our goal is, is to makethis a recognized profession of skilled.
Crafts men and women around the world.
But we noticed that, you know, collegesup uptake were, were dwindling.
People were leaving the industry at amuch earlier age because they weren't,
(06:32):
you know, they weren't thriving.
If you saw a, a head chef or anexec chef at the age of sort of 35
or 40, then you were doing prettywell that, you know, people weren't
having a sustained career, but COVID.
Thrust all of us in, in the worldinto a, a highly anxious state, but it
(06:54):
also gave hospitality professionals anopportunity for the first time in their
life to re grasps what it is to be humanand what it is to have a life and to
connect with family, to connect with the,the core things that are important within.
(07:15):
Us as animals lives, you know, and that'staken a big impact on the industry and
it's also taken a big impact on people'sway of thinking and their perceptions.
And yeah, it's been, it's been achallenging time adjusting to that
time off, but also now having to adjustto going back into those old systems
(07:36):
from a SC from the late 19th century,whereby nothing really has changed a
great deal from that militant system.
Yeah,
Adam (07:44):
it's interesting that you mentioned, you know, the old brigade
system and kind of the militaristicway that the brigade is set up.
And it's very unfortunate that asthe economies around the world are
starting to open up, guests are reallyexcited to, to get back into community
and relationship with each other.
And they're using the restaurantsinto cafes and the pubs as their
(08:05):
focal point without necessarilyrealizing the challenge that.
We've been dealing withfor the past 15, 16 months.
But now as everybody reopens, Iclearly remember when it went from,
you know, lockdown to in person dining.
I was crazy stressed and, you know, keptpushing back and like, we're not ready.
(08:26):
We're not ready.
We're not ready.
We're not ready.
And at some point you have tobe, and I'm a member of a lot
of chef groups on Facebook.
I don't necessarily post much, but Iwatch the comments very, very closely.
And some folks are really at theend of their stamina, dealing
with these increased covercounts and much reduced staff.
(08:49):
I think that's more a comment thana question, but Chris, if I could
just kind of get your perspective.
You worked with the hospitalityindustry in what capacity?
Kris (08:59):
So I've whilst I've worked in hospitality myself, I worked in some
busy bars on the south coast of, of theUK in Costa Del Bourmouth, which is one
of our busiest tourists destinations.
So I, I spent two years working as a,as a bar manager for a really, really
busy pub, you know, where you look upand it's you feel sick to the stomach
because it's been four deep for.
(09:22):
Fucking hours
Adam (09:24):
and everybody's raised in their empty glass, right?
Oh
Kris (09:27):
everyone.
And it's one of these places where theywere serving cheap alcohol as well.
So, you know, what sort ofclientele you've got coming in?
Mm.
But my background's actually in a plethoraof different industries, I've worked in.
Business consulting forthe travel industry.
I was a sales development guy formechanical engineering sector.
I've worked in large corporateinsurance sector as well.
(09:48):
So I've worked in a lot of differentindustries, but for me, about 10 years
ago, I fell into hospitality from afood wholesale supply point of view.
And I was supply in someof the best Michelin star
restaurants in the south coast.
And I was immediatelystruck by the demeanor.
(10:08):
Of a kitchen environment, the waythat it was run the respect, the.
Just there was something about it thatgot to me that combined with the fact
that I was working with ingredients thatI'd never even heard of before, like
Peruvian yams and, you know, I'd, I'd,I'd established what a finger line was.
And over in the UK, wedon't get finger lines.
(10:30):
We were reporting them from Australia and,you know, I was playing with thousands
of pounds worth of Albert truffles.
It for me, I was justcompletely absorbed by the fact.
We had this, these seasonsthat were ever changing.
We had these creative individuals thatI was getting an opportunity to work
with where I could not only fuel my ownpassion for these ingredients and for
(10:54):
the industry, but I could also inspirethe people that I was working with, my,
my clients, if you'd like, but I couldinspire their creativity and that, and
there was something about that that reallysort of, you know, really spoke to me.
What did
Adam (11:07):
you discover through the process?
Like what are your core values that you.
Kind of touch on right now.
Kris (11:13):
It's bloody good question.
A very good question.
I like that a lot.
No one's ever asked me thatbefore, other than that cognitive
Adam (11:20):
therapist.
Well, and here's, here's the reason Iask is that I recognize that in my own
life, without specific core values,about what contribution I want to
make, what kind of life I want to live.
If I can't continue to come back to.
For lack of a better word, missionstatement and touch those core values.
Then it's easy for me to get kind of sideswiped and pushed over by other people's
(11:44):
opinions or, or my boss or whatever.
And, you know, the last couple years wasvery, very difficult for me in regards to
my, my relationship with my direct report.
And it caused me to do a lotof work and go a lot of places.
And I voluntarily left my positionbecause to put it, frankly, I wanted to.
(12:05):
Relaunch this podcast, because I thoughtthis was the absolute right time to do it.
And I've just gotten so not gonnaget so tired, but I've gotten so
dismayed at, at every day, goingthrough these Facebook groups.
And there's another picture of a youngchef who took his own life and having
been on the brink several times myself.
(12:27):
I understand what that looks like.
So the mission of the podcast is verysimple, you know, not, not one more.
Not on my watch, whateverI can do to do that.
And that's what helps me to get up and go.
And I think for a lot of people outthere, especially culinary professionals
who are consumed with creating foodand using food is their expression.
(12:49):
They don't really haveany other core values.
Other than that.
And I would love to be ableto see job postings now.
By employers and organizations thatactually talk about their core values
first in those first three or four lines.
So someone could actually look at thatand say, do I align with that or not?
I was listening to the latest podcastthat you did with that young man
(13:11):
who, you know, continually foundhimself in these situations where,
you know, people said they weregonna do something and they didn't.
And you know, he persevered, but.
That takes a lot of grit and Moxi,and it kind of wears you down.
So I would love for you to, you know,talk to us about, you know, what you
discovered about your core values.
Kris (13:31):
Yeah.
I'm and again, you know,fantastic question.
And just to go back to what you'resaying about job applications and
businesses, I, 100% believe that anyonewho wants to have a successful business.
Needs to focus on the wellbeing oftheir staff as paramount, and to always
have pillars, foundations, core values,principles, whatever you want to call
(13:57):
them, the things that are intrinsicas exposed as opposed to extrinsic.
So, you know, it is not about the factthat we want to be the biggest and
most profitable company in the world.
It's about the fact that we value.
Our employees and we want them tobe healthy and happy and safe and,
(14:18):
you know, to be courageous, withoutfear of fear of falling, you know,
and if they do fall it's okay.
Right.
You know, so for me, it all started.
And I won't go into a long spiel,but when I was 18, I'd experienced
a really heavy bout of depression.
And I didn't know it until later onafter cognitive behavioral therapy,
(14:39):
but it bedridden me it, you know, it,it, I was self-harming, I was paranoid.
I wouldn't get out of bed.
I was in tears every single day.
Didn't know what the hellwas going on with me.
Just thought I wasn't long for this world.
And eventually I.
Took a step outside of the bed.
And then I took a step outside of thebedroom and I built myself up over
a period of years, just through, Iguess what you call it from a clinical
(15:02):
perspective, exposure therapy.
I just exposed myself bit by bitto life and to, to push myself, you
know, but I'm, unfortunately duringthat journey, I learned a bad habit
and that bad habit was in order forme to fit in, in social situations.
I had to completely change who I was to.
(15:23):
What people expected me to be.
Now, I remember that day as clear as itwas yesterday, because I knew that at that
point, that decision would've cost me.
And it wasn't until I was sat inthat cognitive behavioral therapy.
And she turned around and said,well, when, when was it that you
felt like you couldn't be yourself?
(15:43):
And I thought I can tell you exactlywhen it was when I was 17 or 18.
And so what I'd realized I'd beendoing over all the years was I had
been, and I think that at this timesomething had sat uncomfortably
with me that disagreed with me.
I swallowed it down and I brought it backup as, yeah, I completely agree with you.
(16:04):
You're 100% bright.
Yeah, no, I, I am an idiot.
Yeah, no, whatever you say.
I, yeah, a hundred percent.
I was agreeable.
So one of my first corevalues that I established.
don't always be agreeable.
Now.
It doesn't mean you have to be a Dick.
You don't have to go around and chip chipoff your shoulder and say you are wrong.
(16:26):
I'm right.
This is the way it's gotta be.
But yeah, to understand that if somethingdoesn't sit right with you that's okay.
And no one else can tell you otherwise.
You've got to live with yourself.
You feel you, you exist in this world.
And so that if you feel that there'ssomething that doesn't agree.
(16:47):
If someone says something, or if there'sa certain action towards you by your
employer or by someone that you know,or even a friend or family member that
it's okay to speak up and to voice that.
So that was one of my things.
Another thing was to be transparent.
So for me, I am astransparent as possible.
(17:10):
And to the point where I often saythings completely transparently.
And honestly that I shouldn't, because itwill either get me into trouble or it'll
get, you know, someone else into trouble.
But I have I've, I've tolda few white lies in my time,
but I will always be open and.
That's one of the reasons why I did sowell from a sales perspective, because
(17:32):
I walk into a kitchen and some, youknow, a share for client of mine would
be like, yo, you know, you've fuckingfucked up this order, blah, blah, blah.
And I'd be like, do you know what?
Hands up?
100% it was me.
I messed up.
But here's what I'll doto rectify it for you.
So being transparent, being honest, beingaccountable as well, you know, taking
responsibility because at the same time,you know, someone who's, if you're hiding
(17:56):
all the time, Then it's just gonna comeand bite you in the ass at some stage.
Yeah.
You know, again, not being afraidto speak up and I guess wanting to.
Help other people enrich other people'slives and to make a tangible change.
This isn't the ego, but I like the factthat actually I'm making a difference,
(18:19):
even if no one ever says, thank you.
I don't need thanks.
I think that just to know thatsomeone out there has potentially
been saved as a result of the factthat we exist and we might never ever
hear about it, that's enough for me.
And, and, and I think, yeah,that, that for me is, is a
core value that I not only.
(18:40):
Practice on a daily basis, but I alsoinstill into my children now as well.
Adam (18:45):
First off, I just wanted to say that I really appreciate the fact that
you bring an outside perspective, notnecessarily an outside perspective,
but a different perspective thansomeone who's actually doing the grind.
So can you talk a little bitabout those things that you've
seen both to cause you to.
Create the be chef project.
(19:05):
And some of the things that you seenow that give you encouragement.
Yeah.
I
Kris (19:10):
mean, crikey, where to begin.
where to begin.
Let's get, let's get something straight.
You know, the, the, the subject of mentalhealth and high stress and wellbeing,
it's a, it it's deemed as a negativeconversation because it's pointing out all
the things that are currently wrong, but.
(19:32):
It shouldn't be, these are things that canbe resolved and that need to be addressed.
And for years we've just been turninga blind eye to them and accepting
them terms like it is the way it is.
This is just the industry.
It'll never change.
Customers need to pay more,that that will fix this.
I need to be paid more.
That will fix it.
(19:52):
These are the sort ofthings that drive me.
You know, there's a number of things inthere that, that need addressing the.
There's a big, I'm speaking to somequite high name chefs over in the
UK who are contacting me going.
I've made changes tomy workplace practices.
(20:12):
Right?
That's fantastic.
What is it?
Well, I used to work my staffseven days a week, but now I've
put them on four day working weeks.
They do 55 hours in four days, ratherthan 65 hours in six, seven days.
And they're not happy.
So, okay, that's fine.
So there's this big, theseconversations keep coming up.
(20:33):
There's this big conversationaround worklife balance.
So everyone automatically feels thatthey have to go and reduce the number
of days that people working to give themmore time off, but also work them harder
during the days that they are working.
That's a great solution forabout a third of the workforce.
You know, the third of the workforcethat are perhaps okay with doing
(20:54):
those long hours that have thedrive and have the passion.
But it's not okay for the youngergeneration who perhaps want to
work and hone their skill set.
That's not okay for the people whoperhaps have family lives and aren't
able to, you know, to work their schoolpickups and other things around that.
(21:15):
And I think what we've, we've perhapsbecome a little bit the be chef
project's done a great job of, ofraising awareness through studies that
this is a, a key topic of conversation.
But I think that perhaps wehave become a little bit too.
Well, this is a quick fix.
So this is what we need to do.
And we've actually forgettingthe bigger picture.
So you can work 60 hours a week and beperfectly healthy and have a good sense
(21:41):
of wellbeing and strong sense of purpose.
If your leadership team.
Is treating you as a unique individualand that you feel valued and that you
feel safe and that you feel secure andthat you have, you know, creativity
being inspired within you on a dailybasis, and that you feel that it's
okay to fail and make mistakes.
And you know that there's gonna besomeone there to pick you up, dust
(22:04):
you off, teach you the right skills tobuild your resilience and move forward.
So.
Just saying that by switchingeveryone onto four day working
weeks is gonna solve the problem.
It's not if inherently your culture iswrong and your management style is wrong.
And that does bring meonto one of the key areas.
And, you know, I'm a nonprofitrather than the charities.
So what it means is that I can'ttake any profits as a, as a director.
(22:27):
I can take a very small amount profits.
Everything is asset locked.
So I don't own it's asset lockedby, you know, a charity partner.
But what it does mean is that I canstart to put in place solutions.
So the merchandise raisesawareness, it starts conversation.
We're also building trainingmodules to address the other big
issue, which is skill gap shortage.
Because one thing that I'd noticed,so I was 20 years of age working
(22:54):
for a large insurance company,national insurance company in the.
and I had been fully trained, six monthsworth of management training to manage
a team of 10, where three of my oldestmembers of my team was 50, 60 years
old waiting for retirement mm-hmm . Anda load of my youngest members of my
team were 17, 18 fresh outta school.
(23:16):
Didn't really know, youknow, ask from their elbow.
But my job was to.
Using the skill sets that I'vebeen provided work with these
individuals to make sure that theywas maximizing their potential.
Now, the key thing in that story is thefact that I was trained for six months.
I was trained in coaching ad hoccoaching, regular performance reviews,
(23:39):
the right sort of language to use, youknow, the open questioning to be able
to inspire people, to get to do things.
So over here, I call it bums on goalpost.
So obviously rugby posts over here are,uh, are giants right in the same similar
way that, so your American football posts.
Yeah.
Now, if you get a load of guys saton that post and you stand behind
(24:00):
them, their answers that like W's.
So one thing that I always sort oftell people and they want to inspire
people is get them to have a sayin the direction they're going in.
How, what, who, why, when.
Rather than are you gonna do thistoday or are you gonna do it tomorrow?
All of a sudden you've just strippedcontrol away from that individual.
(24:21):
You've given them a yes, yes.
Scenario.
They don't have a control over it.
They're gonna agree with something.
Whereas if you say, how arewe gonna achieve this goal?
What sort of time scales do you reckonwe're gonna do it in all of a sudden
they're like, I've got a say in this,you know, exactly the same result, just
done in a completely different way.
So one thing that we have in hospitalityis that we are all taught to be, you.
(24:44):
Have a, have a service, you know,be efficient, do things faster,
do things more skill, do them moreprofessionally, but we are never, ever,
ever taught or in very rare instancesto lead to effectively communicate.
And so what we have is low skillsskill set with regards to management,
man management, people communication.
(25:06):
Added to that.
You've got a high turnover of staffbecause ultimately your team don't
potentially want don't wanna work inthat environment for extended of time.
Mm-hmm . Now you've got yourhead chefs left your sous chefs.
Now your head chef, yourCDP is now your sous chef.
Your KP is now your CDP and at nostage, is that any of these, these
(25:28):
guys or girls learn the skill sets.
So it requires to be able tohave an effective, effective
team and be able to instigate.
So that for me is one of the key thingsis that we as an industry and, and one
thing that we are trying to take the leadon is actually we are saying, you know
what, in order to get better wellbeing,we need to be able to support individuals
(25:49):
with their own mental health issuesbecause they are there four out of five
people within hospitality have had amental health issue during their career.
But also at the same time, we needto be able to find free training.
So those who want it so thatwe can make you more effective.
We can ensure that you are looking afteryour team in a better way, and that your
communication, you, you are listeningthat your body language, that you are, you
(26:12):
know, even something like a performancereview or a one to one, you know, if
you say that word within a hospitalityenvironment, the first thing that happens
is someone goes, ah, I'm in trouble.
What have I done wrong?
Whereas in fact, actually, Itshouldn't be deemed as that.
And one to one is an opportunity where twopeople can sit down in an organization,
(26:33):
you can sit down with your boss or yourmanager and you say, how am I doing?
And they'll be like, yeah, well,how do you think you are doing?
Like, what is it that you want to work on?
Where can I help you further your career?
You know, what is it that, that we canidentify together and that we can work
on together to be able to achieve yourgoals, but also help me achieve mine
(26:56):
and fit into this organization and makeeverything a lot better for everyone.
Like how much better does that sound?
Adam (27:05):
Sounds exciting.
You know, in the last two yearswith everything that was going on.
One of the things that I was mostproudest of was creating a mentorship
program for hourly associates who wantedto get into management, you know, and
it was staggered and there were one onones and they were reading assignments
and all kinds of stuff like that.
A lot of it was about the softerskills rather than hard skills.
(27:25):
Although there was that too, andthere were actually two people
who went through it successfully,but this whole idea about.
Now all of a sudden everybody'smoving on and you have to fill
those positions because theoperation doesn't slow down yet.
They're not given the skillset inorder to do that, I think is a failing.
(27:45):
And that's one of the reasonsI'm fond of saying, I think
leadership is a red herring.
I think that word specificallyto the culinary industry.
Or the culinary craft is bullshitbecause really what people are looking
for is they're looking for mentorship.
They're looking for elbow to elbow,someone to support them, someone to,
(28:05):
you know, allow them to make failuresthat don't hurt the guests or anybody
else and create this environment wherethey can stretch themselves a little bit
so that they can actually get to know.
Their capacity.
And like you say, resilience,which I think is so undervalued.
And so I'm, I'm completely down, man.
You know, this whole idea of mentorshipdoesn't take any, any longer time.
(28:29):
You know, a lot of it happens elbow toelbow on the line as you're working right
next to one, another having these smallintimate conversations in the midst of
your entire day, that makes such a bigdifference to somebody on their way.
So, I guess it comes backto this idea of culture.
What kind of culture do you actuallywant to create within your environment?
(28:50):
What kind of communitydo you want to work in?
And ultimately, what kindof legacy do you wanna live?
Leave behind?
Because really, I thought all mycareer that my success or failure
as a chef would be how many otherchefs came outta my kitchen, you
know, that went on to succeed.
(29:11):
Not only.
With their food, but also creatingenvironments where people could, again,
kind of be crucibles of excellence,not through, you know, the fact that
we got all stepped through the fire,which we do, but that they always felt
that there was somebody that was gonnalisten to them and give them advice.
And, you know, I wasn't alwaysthis way but I like to think that
(29:35):
I smartened up pretty quickly.
So.
This whole idea about act as opposedto talk, I think is really important.
So can you talk about like theacademy and some of the trainings
that you guys are providing right now?
Kris (29:47):
Yeah, sure.
So as I say, awareness is our firstsort of pillar or my first pillar.
And, and can I just say, like we never,ever, ever thought that two years ago
I would be having conversations allaround the world about mental health.
I only ever wanted.
(30:08):
To, or only I want to do this, but Ionly ever set out to raise a thousand
pounds and raise a little bit ofawareness in my hometown and help a few
people with some mental health training.
What I didn't yeah.
Ever see was Pandora's box opening.
(30:31):
All of this start to flood outand then COVID hitting and feeling
like it was my moral obligationin duty to do something about it.
Yep.
So for me, the academy is a step onthat direction so that we can start
to help individuals with the problemsthey're experiencing, but that's all
(30:51):
very well and good, but it's likeputting a bandaid on a splinter.
It's still gonna be in there and unlessyou pull it out and you start to dress.
It's gonna just keep causing problems.
So the academy is a free app.
That's available on Google and Android.
It's also available online aswell, and you can register for
it for free through our website.
It provides free moduleson any subject that.
(31:17):
We as the be chef project.
And, and again, the burn chefproject gives you an impression
that there's a massive organization.
There's myself and my wifewho helps part-time and, and
a part-time marketing manager.
So everything that you see andthat, I think this is one of the key
things that I really want people tounderstand is everything that you
see about the burn chef project haspredominantly been built by one person
(31:40):
and supported by an entire industry.
I've had volunteers,I've had people come and.
But if ever you think that you are notcapable of doing something you bloody
are, your potential is limitless.
And even if you don't know how toget to your goal, start focusing
on that goal and start taking thesteps in the right direction, because
(32:01):
you are capable of so much morethan you ever thought was possible.
So the be chef modules are basicallymodules that I have put together.
That I feel addressed our overall goal,which is making the industry healthier
and more sustainable bear modules onpersonal resilience, stress management,
(32:23):
managing mental health in the workplace,effective communication there's modules
on there on mental health awarenessor managers, mental health awareness,
because it's important that we empowerour management teams to understand
what mental health issue looks like.
Most importantly, give them thecourage to be able to engage with
that conversation rather than justfear it like I did for many years.
(32:47):
And even the word suicide, youknow, is a word that still sits
deeply uncomfortable with me.
But it's important thatwe start talking about it.
We owe it to the people who areexperiencing these, these, these
experiences, these illnesses, to beable to say to them, we can talk to
you about it and we can do so safely.
You know, we can say to you,are you feeling suicidal?
(33:11):
You know, mm-hmm, open upthat conversation because
that's all in many cases.
You need to do in order to try andalleviate just even a minor bit, what
people are are going through more modulesare coming, you know, as soon as I
be, I can get enough revenue coming incapital so that I can start to expand
(33:31):
my team and free me up and also freeup some capital so that we can pay
more psychologists, more performance,psychologists, you know, more.
Experts to help me build these modules.
We will do.
But if we have modules planned on rotorplanning, you know, RO putting rotors
in place three months in advance, likemind blown, can you imagine knowing
(33:55):
in two weeks, three weeks, four weeks,five weeks time when your days off are,
and knowing that they're unlikely tochange, you know, modules on bullying.
How to spot it, identify and deal with it.
Sexual harassment, diversity training,you know, modules on performance reviews,
(34:16):
you know, how to hold a good performancereview to set tangible tasks so that
individuals know exactly where theystand with the organization, but also
gives them the ability to say wherethey want to go in an organization
and what they want to focus on.
You know?
My brain is so full of things thatI want to put onto this academy and
(34:38):
provide to free for the industry thatI am only limited by the two hands,
two legs, two eyes, and two earsthat I've got to be able to do it.
And this is the, this is the frustratingthing about the be chef project now
is that it, we have reached over 112countries across the world, 112 countries.
(35:01):
If there's anyone in Antarcticaat the moment, please, can you
like come and check us out?
Because at the momentyou're a big black hole.
My map , but genuinely like thereis so much good that we can provide,
but in order for us to do that,people need to be able to support
us so that we can support them.
And we'll continue to develop like I'm,as I say, I'm working on a network of
(35:22):
life coaches, an international networkof life coaches, so that individuals.
Individuals like yourself, youknow, can mentor across the entire
hospitality industry and help peoplefind their why find their core values
and find what it is they want toachieve in life and still have a happy,
(35:45):
healthy career within hospitality.
You know, it might be thatthey set up their own company.
It might be that they becomea producer and start sourcing
the finest strawberries.
Whatever it might be.
I think that sometimes we just need tobe able to talk to someone about it.
And so that's one of my long term goalsto increase their support service, the
(36:07):
immediate tech space support servicethat we offer to every country around the
world, do it in multinational languages.
Again, I can see pound and dollar signsin my head in terms of how much that
time and money that will cost, butit doesn't exist because people have
deemed it too difficult or too hard.
But.
By job, I'm gonna fucking do it.
(36:28):
I want to do it to be able to helpthe industry and it's achievable
just because it hasn't been done yet.
Doesn't mean it's not possible.
So there's, there's a lot more to come.
Adam (36:39):
I couldn't, I couldn't agree with you more, man.
Kris (36:41):
If, if you're interested in any, in, like for me, I studied
a little bit of psychologybefore I dropped out of college.
And one of the studies that alwayssits with the, was the Stanford experi.
Do go and check it out.
It doesn't absolve people ofthings that they've done in
their past, in the same way.
A criminal has stolen.
A thousand dollars from a shop hasstill stolen that a thousand dollars.
(37:04):
But if he's been in prison and he'scome out and he's, you know, he's
making a difference to people's lives,then you can't hold that over him.
But the Stanford experiment's reallyinteresting because what it does is it
takes two, two groups of students thatare, you know, they know each other
they're on good terms, puts 'em in aprison, split some down the middle one
group of wardens, one group of prisoners.
(37:25):
They had to call the experiment offwithin six days because the things
that the wardens were doing tothe prisoners were so heinous and
violating mm-hmm that it was seriouslylong-term damaging the, the prisoners.
And the interesting thing totake away from that is that we
are products, we're animals.
We are products of our environment.
So yes, you might have learned.
(37:47):
That in the past, it was okay to,you know, Brate, berate someone
and to drive them down and to makethem feel small and significant.
You think, you know, that's somethingthat you've learned as a learned behavior.
It doesn't mean that that's okay.
And the question is, what are you gonnado about that now to make up for it?
Adam (38:06):
I think that's a perfect place to leave it, Chris.
Thanks so much for your time.
As I said, consider me an ally for sure.
Thank.
That's it for this episodeof chef life radio.
If you enjoyed it, it made youthink laugh or get pissed off.
And please tell a friend, get ear free.
Copy of three ideas for lesschef dress by signing up for our
(38:28):
monthly newsletter at chef life.
radio.com forward slash signup here at chef life radio.
We believe that working in akitchen should be demanding.
It just shouldn't have to be demeaning.
It should be hard.
It just doesn't have to be harsh.
We believe that it's possible to havemore solidarity and less suck it up.
Sunshine, more compassion,less cutthroat island.
(38:48):
We believe in more partnershipand less put up more, shut up
more community and a lot less.
Fuck you finally.
Consider for a second where allthe blood, sweat, and sometimes
even tears, we put into what we doreally at the end of the day, that's
just some brown stuff on a plate.
None of it really matters.
It doesn't define you as aperson or make you any more
(39:09):
special or less than anyone else.
It's just a dance we're engaged in.
So we might as well laughand enjoy every bit of it.
Even the crappy parts while we're doingit, or didn't, you know, that the purpose
of your life should be to enjoy it.
Like it happy.
Kris (39:23):
I love you.
Love it.
I'm humble.
You God damn glory Foxwell.
Adam (39:27):
I don't live on now.
follow us@facebook.com.
Chef life, radio Twitter at cheflife radio on Instagram at chef
life radio and check out ourwebsite, chef life, radio.com.
Oh yes.
Chef stand tall and frosty brothersand sisters until next time be well.
And do good.
(39:48):
Leave the light on honey.
I'm coming home late.
This show was produced, recorded andedited by me, Adam Lamb at the dish
pit studios in Baro North Carolina.
This has been a productionof realignment video.
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