February 14, 2024 • 42 mins
As the smoky scent of the open flame lingers in the air, Chef James Gop of Heirloom Fire takes us on a tantalizing tour through his life, revealing how a childhood steeped in rich food traditions and an artistic bent shaped his culinary philosophy. With a reverence for seasonal ingredients sparked at Guido's Fresh Marketplace, James shares how he weaves his artistic past into a dining experience that's as much a visual feast as it is a treat for the taste buds. Pull up a chair and prepare to be enthralled by tales of Thanksgiving rituals and transformative moments that led James from the structured confines of the restaurant kitchen to the liberating flames of outdoor event catering.
Venture with us into the great outdoors, where Chef James and the Heirloom Fire team redefine what it means to cook with nature as their backdrop. We'll uncover the true grit and creativity it takes to host a feast under the stars, all while maintaining a poignant connection to the land and community. You'll hear firsthand the spiritual journey of tending to fire, the camaraderie of a team working in unison against the elements, and the balancing act of a chef's life, which often teeters on the edge of a knife. This is the story of transcending the ordinary, where every dish tells a story of place and time.
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https://www.heirloomfire.com/
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Chef Massey (00:00):
Service.
Hey everyone, welcome to ChefSense.
I'm your host, Chef MasseyAlright.
We have Chef James Gop fromheirloom fire.
(00:21):
Thank you for being here.
Chef James (00:23):
It's a real pleasure .
Thank you.
I've been looking forward tothis for a while now.
Chef Massey (00:26):
Thank you for your appreciation and listening and
you sharing your passion, yourcraft, your beginning, you know
enlightening all of ourlisteners and you know I'm just
excited to hear about that.
So, yeah, if you want to startfrom your beginning, and how,
food, passion, where did it allcome from?
Yeah, yeah when does that throwthe box away?
Chef James (00:43):
mentality.
Yeah, it's interesting, it's alot.
You know I'm not.
I mean, I came from a verystrong food-driven family
growing up and it was somethinglike I never understood my
grandmother every you knowThanksgiving.
She would start three daysbefore, like you know, preparing
everything and you know saving,you know onion skins and doing
(01:04):
something with them and I just Idon't understand why you're
doing that and the moment Iguess I didn't appreciate it.
As I got older I began toappreciate it more, but I really
myself I came from more of anart background.
Oh yeah, it was more of like.
My mother has all thesepictures of me falling asleep,
sketching with a pen in my hand.
Chef Massey (01:19):
Oh, that's cool.
Chef James (01:20):
Okay, I always loved Halloween and you know
different masks and things andone year you know this is, I
think, sort of what reallydeveloped my basis, for how can
I look at something throughnowadays?
I say, look at it through theheirloom fire lens.
So one year I bought, like thisfoam latex mask that I, you
know, had somebody help apply tomy face.
It wasn't quite the right sizefor my face.
So the next year is like, well,can I do it myself?
(01:43):
And that's the way I'veapproached everything.
And chef knives that I use likeI studied about how to
blacksmith and make those andhandles from night or from bones
that are from local steer youknow taking those pounding those
out.
So, yeah, I just actually hadreally all started with a girl,
I think, with, I mean, I don'tknow, I think a lot of people's
journeys in life.
But I did work at Guido's FreshMarketplace in Great Barrington
(02:05):
.
Chef Massey (02:05):
Okay, oh, I think I saw that ad they're doing great
.
They've got that store.
Oh my God, talk about.
Chef James (02:10):
Disneyland yeah, and it has does has not seemed to
slow down.
And you know, when I was just ayoung buck, I didn't seek out
working there.
It wasn't like, oh my God, Iwant to be involved in food and
was hiring.
And then that's where I reallyunderstood, like having a peach
in.
August, like you want to bestepping out like standing over
a bathtub when you bite into ityes, right, right Good heirloom
apples, understandingseasonality and, you know, then,
(02:32):
of course, getting to meet someof the chefs that came in, you
know.
Chef Massey (02:34):
Dan Smith from John Andrews he's great to you, he's
the best.
Chef James (02:38):
Yeah, and I had an issue with my Hobart mixer, my
A200.
He just happened to reach out,I forgot.
We've exchanged phone numbers,like I have a planetary shaft,
so yeah, he's a, he's a greatguy.
But then you see, those guyscome in.
You know, I've always like thatphrase.
I always love a man in auniform.
Chef Massey (02:54):
Yeah, it's like oh, it's a chef.
Chef James (02:55):
So then I'm like going over and I'm showing you
how to get this pursuit in andall this type of stuff.
Yeah, yeah, that's where Ireally enjoyed, you know, an
understood seasonality.
And then I met a woman whobasically was like, what are you
doing?
I'm like, well, because anytimeI ever had a crush on anybody,
it would be like I'd bake themsome sort of chocolate goodie or
something like that and thatwould typically be it, but this
one was like working there forthe summer.
What are you doing?
Well, let's start looking atculinary schools.
Chef Massey (03:16):
Oh, okay.
Chef James (03:17):
So I went to New York City.
I went to the Institute ofCulinary Education okay was on
West 23rd Street in Manhattanand Chelsea and what an amazing
experience that was.
And if I could find a way tobottle that energy ever again,
to be able to work at Guido'sMonday through Friday, head out
there into the expedited just ohmy gosh, where is that at?
Chef Massey (03:35):
Yeah, yeah, welcome here.
Chef James (03:38):
We are yeah here, and it was a real weird thing to
then, you know, kind of leavethat course.
And then you know, looking atthe art aspect, because I would
take cast to my friend's facesand put, you know, I'd make a
clay mold on top of it.
It could be either silicone orfoam latex.
So you'd spend like a month onsomething, application, doing
teeth and whatnot.
So when it came to food, doinga multiple dish, somebody goes
(04:01):
to eat it.
No, no, no, don't touch that,it's not meant to be eaten.
Yeah, so that was a real eyeopening thing.
For me.
To understand over the periodof time is that it's about the
entire experience.
It's about to eat with our eyesfirst, Right right absolutely
so, yeah, and I got.
I worked at the Wheatly for aperiod of time.
Oh, okay, the Olden of the Green, so I tried to find these
places Very cool and then, for alittle bit, it was.
(04:23):
You know, for me, I enjoy thesetypes of things, these personal
connections.
Yep, I'm much more of anintrovert, so it's it's weird
that I own a company that catersto massive amounts of people.
Yeah, but I enjoy the clientthat I'm working with.
So, yeah, working inrestaurants, I never got the
satisfaction of, you know, beingable to pair something for
somebody, and it needs somebodyto pat me on the back and say,
(04:45):
hey, great job.
I think it was just this aspectof taking care of somebody Sure
, you know, and curtailing thatentire experience to them.
Yeah, so, honestly, truth is Igot burnt out.
I've been burnt out a few times, and I think it's important
where a lot of cooks don't, Iyou know, actually pay attention
to when that happens, becauseyou can stay on the pot for too
long, you bet.
So, you know, I took a breakand there was a local butcher
(05:07):
shop that was looking for help.
They had some open firecatering stuff.
Oh, Jeremy.
Stanton, yeah, yeah.
Chef Massey (05:13):
Yep, yep.
Chef James (05:13):
Yep and I went and helped him for one event and I
was like, oh my God, this isamazing, you can be cooking over
fire outdoors.
Yeah, it's a totally differentgame and at that point it was
simple.
It was like you know, roastingpigs and vegetables and things
like that.
And it was a lot of fun and sure.
So then shortly thereafter Iended up managing that company
and managing the butcher shopand did that for about maybe
(05:34):
three or four years and then gotto a stage where you know just
professional differences andsure it's overstayed my time
there and got kind of burnt out.
And I got burnt out again thelast big time, as was, you know,
it's like I don't even know ifI want to be in the food
industry anymore.
Wow.
But then I ended up working at.
I knew I wanted to be involvedsomehow, so I ended up working
(05:55):
at Taft Farms.
Chef Massey (05:56):
Oh yeah, that's right, that's right, that's
right.
I think that's when I first metyou.
Yeah, yeah, you had boys downthere and they weren't picking
out Kyle.
Oh yeah, oh yes, Absolutelyyeah.
Another sweetheart yeah, he's agood guy.
Oh yeah, no, he's great.
Yeah, and did they?
Chef James (06:09):
yeah, worked there and then happened to just come
across.
You know, developingprofessional relationships with
clients and you know it'ssomething I often think about in
life is we always have theseparticular moments that come up.
That may or may not makes itmakes something.
Sure.
You know, I ended up getting aRight.
Before I started working at thefarm, I got this flu.
I thought it was like a realserious, just seasonal flu, but
(06:30):
turned out it was Lyme disease.
Chef Massey (06:32):
Oh, you have that too.
Chef James (06:33):
Yeah, the most amazing diet I've ever been on.
I didn't have to do anything.
I lost weight Really I lostlike 20 pounds.
I just had this like feverconstant.
Oh, it's horrible, it's reallyhorrible, and that's so right
Going to work at Taft Farms andthe Blazing Sun taking
Doxycycline.
Chef Massey (06:47):
Yes, I was doing, yeah.
Chef James (06:49):
You got to have like a cowboy hat and putting the
stuff on top of your ears andwhatnot.
Yeah, A lot of fun, but anyhow,a connection that I had made, a
really high profile celebritywas going to be their party and
I didn't have any equipment.
It was nothing right, yeah you?
Yeah.
This person reached out andsaid basically the handler or
the assistant to this person wassaying you know, can we?
(07:11):
we have this event coming up?
Can I talk to you tomorrow?
And that was on Sunday and Iwas so sick and I was like, yeah
, absolutely for sure.
So you know, they can only seeme on the other side of the
camera.
I was like draped with ablanket over me, yeah, and the
person was like, oh, it'sso-and-so's birthday this
weekend and a lot of othercelebrities are going to be
there and start name droppingthings and like, do you think we
can do something?
I'm like, oh yeah, of course,of course I don't have anything.
(07:33):
Yeah, no equipment.
So got off the phone, called upmy cousin who had worked with
me intimately at that point atthat company and we literally
built the business in five daysUnbelievable.
Chef Massey (07:43):
We built an oven.
Chef James (07:44):
One of my best friends who was also wedding
planner Magdalena, yep,magdalena, oh yeah, this one.
So she was like sewingtablecloths and making props,
and the reason I bring that upis that I often think about that
.
Had it not been for thatparticular celebrity, would I be
sitting here today?
Chef Massey (08:00):
Yeah, you know.
Chef James (08:00):
Yeah, what I just simply said no, unfortunately, I
don't have anything Right, andbusiness just kept coming and I
was like well, actually, youknow what I really enjoy this
now that I'm in control, yeah,yeah.
And then we just started offwith five events and you know,
2018, no, I'm sorry, 2022 waslike a banner year for us.
We did 38 events.
Chef Massey (08:20):
Oh, wow, okay.
Chef James (08:21):
Got to do an event for really one of my idols in
life, so it's like checked off abox, Dan Barber.
Chef Massey (08:26):
Oh, yep, yep, Absolutely.
Chef James (08:28):
Sure, and then finished our season in Nashville
, tennessee, with Sean Brock.
Oh, there you go.
It was great, okay.
Yeah, it was a great year.
It was outstanding man, yeah.
Chef Massey (08:35):
And I think too, for our listeners, because we do
get a variety of people.
We're not talking commercialkitchen and like combi oven and
all these.
You know French range andyou've got all this equipment
that you're wrapped in.
Your experience is somethingthat is this immersion
opportunity, that is a, in asense, this food theater, and
(08:59):
you are really captivatingpeople not just by the senses of
what is on the plate, but theminute that they step into, even
probably talking to you abouttheir opportunity to work with
you.
It really is a culinaryspiritual experience, to be
honest.
I mean, because you're usingwood, you're using crafted metal
(09:21):
and you're out in the elements.
So I just everybody.
This is kind of more of whatwe're talking about and it is a
special situation because youreally find out what you're made
of being in these environments.
Yeah, sorry, I just had to.
Chef James (09:36):
No, don't be sorry.
Yeah, I think that's correct.
I didn't do a great job at allof explaining.
Yeah, appreciate that.
Yeah, it's a really interestingthing.
It's kind of like takestraditional catering and flips
it on its head, in a sense thata lot of ways people are cooking
90% of the food offsite andthen bringing it in where we're
cooking 90% of the food on sitethe day of and you're absolutely
right, I mean last year andit's just.
(09:57):
You know, it's so interesting.
There's so many differentthings.
You're combating wind speed,quality of the wood you know we
for a while we were getting youknow because you have to call.
You're not allowed to transportwood across really even county
borders due to the emerald ashborer problem.
Oh, right, so you really have tobe getting it from the areas
you're working in.
A lot of times, if we'reworking someplace in New
(10:18):
Hampshire or Rhode Island, wehave no idea the quality of the
wood.
I don't know these people.
Chef Massey (10:23):
So they could need to be dried longer and then and
there's a lot of times it showsup either, feels like they cut
it down on the way.
Super green yeah.
Chef James (10:32):
Or punky and moldy.
And again, you know we had doneanother really high profile
wedding, was like the biggest ofour time and we like we had all
the food prepped and none ofthe like the fires couldn't get
going.
I called the guy up and I can Iget some seasoned wood?
He's like what do you mean?
Just throw a can of gasoline?
Chef Massey (10:51):
So I'm cooking over it and it's yeah, come try this
food now?
Chef James (10:54):
Yeah, exactly, I'm just planning that, yeah you can
have the first round of it,yeah.
Chef Massey (10:57):
Yeah.
Chef James (10:58):
So you know, but that's the thing is like.
You're absolutely right, itshows you what you're made of.
You know, like with, like apropane grill or range or
whatever You're like.
Oh, I know where the hotspotsare.
Like you're not, you'recreating the hotspots.
And we did an event this pastyear was water up above my boots
which is like, you know, sortof cowboy calf boots.
We had to find things and wejust make it work.
Chef Massey (11:18):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know.
Chef James (11:19):
I had a.
I had a chef a traditional sortof chef that came and worked
with us this year and it hadbeen raining constantly and this
was a particularly rainy eventand you know she had a really
great you know perspectivelooking at it and get stressed
at all.
But the rest of the team werejust like, yeah, it's raining
again, you know.
So that's where you know havingthat team, that where you know
(11:39):
you go through enough things andthe thing that I think I'm the
most proud of this obviouslyworking with amazing clients and
doing beautiful food.
But from the back end, I get togo on the weekends or on the
yeah, basically the biggest day.
You know we have prep and wehave the day.
I really look forward to seeingmy friends and my family.
Chef Massey (11:54):
you know to be able to cook.
Chef James (11:55):
And then, when you go through all kinds of heck
with each other, you can realizethat you know what.
You look to the person to yourleft and the person to your
right, and you can accomplishanything.
Chef Massey (12:04):
You can go on a battle with those people and
they've got your back.
Yeah, yeah, 100% Right.
And you know, I mean there's somany questions involved with
you know what you do that I findso intriguing.
I mean, I've done some of theseevents but nothing like you
know, like outstanding in thefield.
And you know, I understand andrespect the fact of I love, you
know, open fire cooking andbeing out in the elements, but
(12:26):
again, it is also the menuengineering that you do with
going even further into it andforaging or using some of these
items from that regional area tohave a voice on that menu.
That's a main.
I mean you're dropping in andlogistically you have to think
(12:48):
of your team.
You have to think of whatyou're bringing.
You have to think can I putthis stuff here?
You know, I mean there's a lotyou're dealing with and I'm just
rattling, but then you'redealing with the fires and
you're prepping an X andexecution and you know you're
even doing these stations alongthe way and you carry people
through an event.
I mean this is really this is alot of strategic and craft
(13:13):
formulation and that's why I'mcalling it a craft, because you
know, again, I love what I doand I'm very talented in it, but
I love that opportunity to gothat much further.
It's pretty amazing.
Chef James (13:25):
Yeah, I mean first and foremost to that.
I will always say the SuningTamah in sight, because I
realize that sure I may have theideas, but without the team
that I have you can neverexecute.
So you know, I'm the firstperson to tell everybody all the
time because I sincerely meanit is that I have the best team.
Chef Massey (13:40):
You know Now there's been.
Chef James (13:42):
You know, I have one guy that, who used to be my
boss at Guido's in the producedepartment, who's been with me
since the beginning, plus some.
Wow, that's so cool, yeah, andhe's graduated from dishwashing
or turning proteins and nowreally one of the most essential
pieces of the kitchen iscooking and open fire ovens, you
know so I mean then there aresome other turnover, you know
(14:03):
pieces of people that come injust due to, you know,
seasonality or whatever it maybe.
But you know, I think it'sreally important when it comes
to like a leadership aspect is,you know it's my job to really
like, first and foremost, youhave to love what you do, yeah
absolutely.
And then people have got on myyou know chops before about
finding a work to life balance,which is fine.
I'm not really sure if I'mdoing that, but I think when you
(14:24):
almost demonize the work aspect, when you, when you have to
institute this idea of you, haveto find a balance I have, but
also like if what I do I'm veryfortunate to have found what I
do that actually feeds me, youknow so that's what I love.
So it's my job to really set upmy team.
I do have it's a very smallskeleton crew back at the shop
(14:45):
that our shops, that we havethere.
But you know, on site for doingan event for 200 people, we
could easily have, you know,eight or nine cooks in the
kitchen that are working andthen you know, if it's for 200
people, probably around oh, Idon't know 18 or 19 for the
house members.
Chef Massey (14:59):
Yeah.
Chef James (14:59):
So it's a small village that we're doing all
this and you know, I really tryto pay attention to each person
in their roles, see what they'redoing and constantly try to
give them a little bit more, tokind of see Sure, absolutely,
did they rise?
Did they like it?
Does it speak to them?
Chef Massey (15:11):
Yeah, well, and you're again.
You're dealing with all theother turbulence in the waters
too, you know, for staffingstruggles, and now you have an
operation that you're setting upout there and you're taking
people staff members, if they'renew and you're like, hey,
you're going from a commercialkitchen setting to learning, you
know, because that tending afire for me is a very spiritual
(15:33):
thing.
It comes to the indigenous sideof my family where it's life's
existence, and feeding a fire iskind of like being a parent and
you've got to understand whenit needs to be moved, when it
needs to be guided in the waythat you see helping it to its
future.
So that's where you know thatappreciation of dealing with all
(15:55):
these elements and then alsothat love for, you know,
community and you know I comefrom a multi-generational
farming family, so I spent a lotof time, you know, picking up
mainline and doing a lot ofthese things.
And you know that's where Ithink it's very special that
there's a chef and then we'realso artists and I think when we
(16:17):
are driven, that could be avery challenging trajectory,
depending on how we deliver ourmessage of internal fire.
And you know that's where Irespect the fact of first, you
know, knowing that I need aboundary.
You know, because I have goneinto those situations where you
know Steph has said is this whenis it ever going to be enough
(16:38):
for you?
You know, and to that point inmy head right then I was like I
don't know, keep going.
You know, so you have thisexistence kind of lifestyle that
it is challenging, it is hardand you are consumed, you know,
on so many ways the financialside, admin side, to menu
creation, to staffing challenges.
(16:59):
So for you to do this out inthe open is just it's kind of a
marvel, you know.
Chef James (17:04):
Yeah Well, thank you , it takes a lot and there's a
lot of stuff you touched onthere.
And it's so interesting becausewhen I bring somebody on, I
will tell you to this date sofar, yeah, having somebody that
has only culinary experience,that have been a career cook,
ultimately it doesn't reallywork out with us.
A lot of the people that I havethat work with us on site are
(17:25):
people that are.
They all have second jobs andit's interesting because,
considering the amount of work,I mean it's, like you know,
typically a 14 to 15 hour day onsite.
Yeah, we show up, we set up thekitchen Right, you know, from
soup to nuts, we do our best.
I mean, you know, I'm also likean insane football coach.
At the end of the you knowevent, I'll go through social
media and look at every singlepicture that may have been
(17:45):
tagged to see if there'sanything out of place, and then
I will screenshot those thingsand circle them and send it to
the appropriate person.
Yeah, yeah but you know, theaverage age for my team is
probably about 45 to 50, whichis kind of interesting.
Yeah, when I've had people thatare professional chefs, they
come in, they're used to comingin and setting up their station,
(18:07):
yeah, and that's no longer it.
I mean, there's a differentthing where it's like, you know,
we got to set up stuff and thenwe have our moments.
We have like cocktail hourcomes.
That's the nice part.
Once we know cocktail hour, isthere past apps.
You know stationary.
We have like a beautiful burklemeat slicer that we're slicing.
Those are great, they reallyare.
And our charcuterie program,too, is like.
(18:28):
Another thing we really try tofocus on is waste reduction.
So for us like this time of yearis a great example when we use
winter squash, right so fordoing a preparation, maybe we
peel the squash and then we packit into our good food cooler,
bring it back to the shop andput in our X caliber dehydrator
and dehydrate that and thengrind it up into a powder that
we can use as like a finishingseasoning or a very cool Seeds.
(18:50):
We'll take the seeds out we'llsame deal bring it back to the
shop, soak them, take off themembranes, roast them and then
press them into an oil.
So with the oil we can setaside and then the seeds that
come out of the oil press we canincorporate that, maybe with
that seed powder.
So then now, next time we dothe dish we're using and then
we'll roast the flesh, anythingwe can't repurpose, like maybe
(19:11):
leftover sourdough bread becausewe have so many breadcrumbs-
and maybe some dessert cakes orwhatever.
those goes to a container forour livestock farmers who come
and pick it up so they feed itto their animals all throughout
the season.
At the end of the season we'llpurchase those animals from them
and then turn them intocharcuterie for the next season
Right, and you are doing thewhole setup as well with that
(19:31):
curing, eating the whole.
Yes.
And that's another thing to thestory, right, it's just very
powerful, yeah, and you have tocome up with a shop sometime and
see it, because it's abeautiful system.
Chef Massey (19:41):
Yeah, I would be extremely heightened.
I'm sure I couldn't help myself.
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Back to the episode.
Can you give an example?
I think there was one you haddone in Florida in an event that
was just like, wow, I have gotto go all the way down there.
I mean, that was crazy too.
Yeah, that was during COVID.
(21:11):
Also okay, wow, so it was reallycrazy.
Chef James (21:13):
So it was like late 2019, they had me to come down
to just do a site visit.
They put me up.
It was at this, say, ritzCarlton place.
No, yeah, I think it was RitzCarlton.
It'll come to me.
Chef Massey (21:25):
Oh, no worries.
Chef James (21:26):
But yeah, the first thing was, you know I'm from the
country up here in themountains.
Yeah, where they take me out, Iget there like, all right, we
have the whole everything set upfor you.
We're going to be going fishing, so you might want to pack a
pair of shorts.
Well, I don't own shorts, Idon't typically.
So we're out there on, you know, in a boat and you know,
catching vermillion red snapperand it was, it was fun, it was
(21:49):
super fun, right.
But then we go back, we'resitting down and then, right
when we got there, they madeCrudo almost immediately with it
and sent it up to us as, likeyou know, something to nibble on
Now being landlocked.
I've never had fish that fresh.
It was like you know the sortof you know culinary directors
oh, this is great.
So, even before the rigor setin, oh, wow.
So it was like eating thesesalty tabs of like sea butter.
(22:11):
It was like the most amazing.
So they had asked because, youknow, every once, every once a
year, we try to do a ticketedevent where we create a culinary
experience in a place that'snot normally set up, so there's
not going to be any poweraccessible, no bathrooms, so
it's, we're bringing all that in.
Yeah, you know, we did a dinnerinside an old cement mine in
Rosendale, new York once, wherethe dinner itself was in this
(22:32):
cement mine.
That was half covered in waterand half.
There was a lot, of, a lot offun.
So they asked me to create anexperience down there.
So that's like you know, workingwith things that we don't even
have up here, you know and a lotof things we work with up here,
too, is invasive species, soJapanese knotweed buckthorn, you
know, garlic mustard, alldifferent kinds of stuff, yeah.
(22:52):
So yeah, it was reallyinteresting to crack into that
and understand the wild boardown there, the lionfish, which
is like really essential.
Chef Massey (23:00):
Yeah, Connery Bay was saying something about.
Chef James (23:02):
Yeah, oh, they're horrible, yeah they'll start to
people that right, they want toget it.
So basically, for folks thatdon't know, an invasive species
is classified.
As you know, we take somethingout of its regular ecosystem and
ecosystem develops to keepeverything in check.
Now it can be from the bacteriain the soil to the birds that
may be eating something.
To then what eats the birds andwhat eats whatever on top of it
(23:24):
.
So, out of Florida, they evenhave a problem with the Burmese
python, oh wow.
You know what.
The natural predator that keepsa Burmese python in check is A
Bengal tiger.
They're not just sort ofhanging out down there walking
on the floor right.
So right.
So these are all things likewhen I look at it, because the
big thing for me is a purpose,like what is sure I want to cook
and everything, but what is thebigger purpose, the bigger
(23:46):
cause, right, right.
So you know, frag mites or evennot, we are brought in as
ornamentals that then, once youtake it out of its own ecosystem
, there's nothing that keeps itin check.
Chef Massey (23:55):
So it goes bonkers.
Chef James (23:57):
So, instead of looking at that as like a pest
where we want to spray it withsome kind of pesticide or
whatever.
There's like we love not.
We work it all year round whenit comes up in the spring, we'll
cover it and kind of treat itlike white asparagus.
Chef Massey (24:08):
That's cool.
Chef James (24:08):
Yeah, I kind of blanch it Okay yeah, and then
after that take it out, thenblanch it in salted water and
then can I keep it in like avinaigrette and it tastes just
like artichoke hearts oh, no,kidding, really beautiful and
and it's so prevalent it'sridiculous like wow, and it's
the best part is it's you.
You can't beat the price.
Chef Massey (24:24):
Okay, it's a great, you know great, price free.
Yeah, you're going well.
And that's the other thing inthe experience of, you know,
your staff members, like I, wasusing milkweed pods, yeah you
know, and and pickling nose andit almost has this okra like
Profile to it, but it was, youknow, doing those sorts of
things.
Again, I think it's it'smindfulness in my mind to be
(24:45):
where my feet are, not only justas a chef, but again going to
my native foundation that youknow it's, it's very powerful
and for you being that Pulledinto it, it's just it's
wonderful to see.
Chef James (24:58):
I wanted to ask you, given your heritage, I cannot
remember the chef's name, but hehas a cookbook called the sous
chef.
Chef Massey (25:04):
Oh, yeah, I for.
Yeah, he's, he's Lakota.
Yep, yeah, do you have thatbook?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Chef James (25:10):
So inspirational so because of that, I didn't even
think about this.
Yeah, he was talking aboutusing juniper berries while
juniper berries.
Yeah, and it's so interesting,around here we don't have many
cedar trees that are gonna bebearing them.
I just think it's just slightlywarmer over in New York State.
Yeah, the growing zone isdifferent.
It's gonna go over there andcollect those and dry those, and
you've been using those ascracked pepper on yes.
Medicine dish or something youknow.
(25:31):
You know, if you, as long asyou have, like a blueberry comb,
one of those, you go to theshrubs.
You can collect quite a bitright on Sherman, is it?
Chef Massey (25:38):
Oh yeah, that's a regular old Jamie.
Yeah, that's, I know right,pulling it up, yeah, yeah
totally got us.
Chef James (25:45):
Yeah, no, I mean, that is, that's right.
Chef Massey (25:49):
He does a lot of work and I think you know, again
, when you're looking atindigenous eating, you know
there's some very that's verysimple.
You're taking that aspect andit's the same thing with our
settlers, any one of us that hasbeen placed in these
Environments, where you'relearning your surroundings.
Yes, you know the spruce tipsor you know Spruce syrup or some
(26:12):
of these things that you knowthat we're doing.
Like I'm getting ready, I'vegot maple sap going and, like
Dan barber now using it with thewaters and you're not fully
reducing it for syrup.
You're in fancy.
So I think it's again.
It's very powerful To showpeople, at least from my side,
that if you just slow down inthis world that we live in
(26:34):
Mm-hmm, and you take a minute tobe out at one of your events,
see all the hard work that youall are doing, or going and
gorging, getting burdock root,watercress or sun choke, it's a
spiritual Existence, primarilyfor me that as a leader, it's
the same way I view the woodsand the lands.
(26:54):
We are all connected here for apurpose being able to reach the
land in that way.
You know just that variety.
It shows people your passionfor just being where we are.
Yeah, and I think that's veryimportant.
Chef James (27:08):
I do as well.
Yeah, I mean literally.
You can walk outside andthere's an entire grocery store.
There is, whether it's redclover, white clover, you know.
You have violets that grow outthere.
You could just take a take anhour and pick wild violets in
the springtime you know, ofcourse, not taking too many to
disturb the bees.
No, they're really prolific andthen make a syrup out of that,
(27:28):
because for me, when it comesdown to it, it's like food is
great, a good recipe is good,but the best enhancement to a
recipe is a story.
Absolutely, if you can excitepeople about.
Yeah, do you see that out there?
Oh, or you know what?
During COVID, a big thing wedid was doing these cooking
classes at people's houses.
So I'd bring one of my ovensand we'd set it up and we would
put together a whole menu andwhile food was cooking, I would
(27:49):
then take them on their propertyand show them what's growing
and the excitement to see whatto people.
Chef Massey (27:55):
Yeah, I realize that you know I do something
with it.
Chef James (27:58):
I mean, I'm just a big you know, big fan of you
know.
Think about like when friendswas really big, or Game of
Thrones or wherever it's likeyou know you come in.
Oh, just see what happened lastnight.
There's that water, watercooler talk, and if somebody
doesn't know then you caneducate them and there's a
beautiful Exchange there.
Chef Massey (28:13):
Oh, it's really amazing.
Yeah, any challenges that youbecause you pop up, you're
looking, you have to look atyour setup, what the terrain
looks like.
I mean, what kind of challengesother than quite a bit Do you
deal with?
I mean Set up logistics ofgetting everybody there.
I mean it's unbelievable.
Chef James (28:31):
Yeah, it definitely has its challenges.
I would say the biggestchallenge.
I mean, it's really it's.
It's funny, it's year to year,you know so yeah, because you're
going by the elements.
Chef Massey (28:40):
Your slow time, or is there a slow time?
Well, we've been trying to ascrazy as this is.
Chef James (28:46):
Yeah, because it we go so hard from essentially May
until November.
Yeah, and that's where you know, when we did 38 events of 52
weeks in a year, it's, it's,it's a lot, you know.
We could do an event on a Fridayin one location and then we
could do an event on Saturday ina completely different location
.
Yeah, we ended up.
So we ended up doing this event, which I was amazing.
(29:08):
You know for this otherhigh-profile wedding that we had
done this.
The planner had called me twoweeks before the event and it
was like oh, we're doing thisevent in the Long Island.
I know you probably can'tactually do it and Mike boss for
you.
Chef Massey (29:19):
Of course I'm going to tell him that though I'm
like, yeah, we can make happen.
Chef James (29:22):
So we did this.
You know several, you know it'sit's a lot of prep leading up.
Yeah, we do 90% of the work onsite, but you know we're also
trying to keep up on fermentingforage.
Oh yeah you know, our the shop.
We're doing things like, youknow, a oldies or salad
dressings or something of thatnature.
So we did that event.
That's like 12 hours all in.
They wanted to do a late nightso I left two members of the
team there, I made it get into avehicle and then, you know,
(29:45):
logistically set up an Airbnbtwo hours away, you know, hoping
there's no traffic or whatever.
So then we drive out, crashthere, get up, you know, have
breakfast around the road againto drive another two hours.
It's four hours away,everyone's dog tired and it's
for a 30 person party.
And you know, thankfully.
You know I mean it's like wegot it done because that's how
we do it, but it is like cometypically like a Sunday.
(30:05):
I'm like dead to the gotta beabsolutely other challenges.
I would say you know we'realways going to me, for me, like
, this is the thing all day longwe will plan as we should, but
also there's gonna be curveballs.
You just have to accept that.
Yeah, it was like I always tellthe team.
It's not about like how muchyou plan, it's about getting
rocked on the chin and stillmoving forward.
(30:26):
And also not letting them see asweat.
Chef Massey (30:29):
Right, that's the big thing you know.
Chef James (30:31):
So you know, dealing with the curve balls or
something, I just sort of havebecome second nature.
But yeah, I mean, I think thoseare the big things I mean
truthfully in this area.
The thing that I'm really Imean it's in.
This is a challenge that Idon't know, as though it's
solely for just on me, but thething I worry about, and the
thing that ultimately doesaffect me, I guess in the same
(30:52):
way is that we're really pushingthe envelope when it comes to
food, and I wanted you that andI want to also share that with
people.
Yeah, now, the thing that scaresme is that I feel like in this
area and I know that it's justbecoming increasingly More
expensive to live here it'sharder to get people here.
Is that okay?
Ultimately, no one's going towork for you forever.
(31:13):
If they do, and they're reallygreat employee, you know, bless
your stars and everything, butif they leave, you want to set
them up for success and you wantthe next thing they go Onto to,
really to give them anotherexperience in this area, and
those are the things I worryabout here, and I think it also
is limiting to having access toreally skilled cooks.
That's the big thing is thatI've that's.
(31:35):
That's the wall I'm hitting now.
Yeah, yeah, with having youknow somebody that's gonna be a
key member of my team becauseultimately, the goal is to grow
into something where we cancontrol the entire experience.
Yeah, I love having people upto our tasting room for small,
because we do intimate dinnersup there as well.
Chef Massey (31:51):
Oh OK.
Chef James (31:52):
Yeah, we can do dinners for 24 people.
We just do one where I gohunting with my neighbor and
that's kind of how I start asone here.
He asked me hey, do you want togo hunting?
I'm like yeah, sure, we wentout and got a nice beautiful doe
.
Then I was right around kind ofshortly thereafter with COVID
in 2021,.
I've always wanted to go toNoma.
I had tickets to go to Noma andthe fat duck and it was like oh
, how can you get these tickets?
Chef Massey (32:13):
But then of course COVID hit.
Chef James (32:15):
Yeah, so that was gone.
I'm like, well, if I can't gothere, I want to create my own
version of their game menu.
So it creates something calledWildland, which is sort of a
look at the Berkshire at thattime of year lots of preserves,
going fishing, getting likepickerel wild duck venison and
just playing with a lot of otheringredients, like birch,
working with birch wood.
Chef Massey (32:34):
Oh yeah, have you ever worked with birch wood,
where you get?
Chef James (32:36):
to steep it in cream and milk, it makes the most
amazing ice cream.
Chef Massey (32:39):
No, I have not done that.
No, oh, it's wild.
Chef James (32:42):
And the magic comes when you add vinegar to it.
Chef Massey (32:44):
OK, yep.
Chef James (32:45):
Yeah, we did just do .
This year we did sort of a takeon a deconstructed root beer
float where you get like asassafras ice cream.
That's cool.
Ginger cotton candy.
Chef Massey (32:56):
Yeah, oh OK, and did like a oh, very nice, wow,
man, yeah, and a sassapar.
Chef James (33:00):
It's like you know.
I have one of those vegetablepeelers that can peel the apples
out super long, oh yes, androlled that up and poached that
in a sassaparilla syrup OK, andthen dunked that in a white
chocolate that was flavored withlike a root beer extract
Interesting and then did like awrap around it so it looks like
a log when you cut into it, butall of those components and then
like an anise shortbread cookieto go in oh OK, oh, that's kind
(33:23):
of nice Licorice root yeah.
Oh, very cool.
So playing with that stuff,playing with surround sound up
there, we play with smells, webuild these tables that we can
put a little key into them andwent to remove the center leaf,
you can crank something up andthe charcuterie board came out
of the center of the table.
Not a wild stuff.
Chef Massey (33:38):
So how do you I mean because you know, a
visionary, it's hard for us toyou know you develop your team,
you develop the leadership teamwith you and you, you know the
big goal is to try to be able tobe freed up enough from the
operation so that you can buildthe road ahead while still being
(33:58):
involved with the team.
That's hard.
You're thinking of things thatare.
You know that you may have toget for a number of those to
create that mechanic and theyeah, yeah, it's incredibly
challenging.
Chef James (34:12):
Yeah, it was going.
If you could go back to 2021,when the government was getting
these checks that were, you know, the government was giving
checks people to be able to live, which was great, and we took
advantage of it through abusiness as well.
Okay Of course, but you know, itwas very hard to get local
talent to work Right.
So now, 2021, we're doingevents that we quoted in 2019.
(34:36):
So, you know, we're looking atnow having to bring in a
staffing agency from New YorkCity which we're going to be
paying twice the amount of moneyfor what we had quoted it for,
and then the captain's $80 anhour.
So we took a shellacking, yeahfor sure, in 2021.
But you know, and around herewe're so close to New York City
and so close to Boston, so thefolks that are really passionate
(34:56):
are either going to go to thatplace or maybe they go to a
Mirror of All or what have you.
But that's where, you know, weare taking the team members that
are here and I'm trying toawaken a passion inside of them.
That is certainly the hardestthing to get, I think, right now
, because a lot of people aroundhere I've had folks on that,
you know have made choices intheir lives that maybe in those
(35:18):
moments they didn't think werethe greatest choices, and you
know.
So now they're sort of workingthose out.
But it also interferes with youcan't have your cake and eat it
too, you know.
Chef Massey (35:28):
Yeah, especially in this industry.
Right, like it almost demandseverything out of you.
It absolutely does at alllevels.
That's really hard, yeah.
The thing is is getting theteam together and you know where
we're going with thesechallenges of staffing levels,
with some operations.
Ai is involved, oh yeah, youknow, like that restaurant that
opened in California the otherday, or that has AI.
(35:51):
I mean, it's a burgerrestaurant, sure Quick food, so
they do the burger to the fries,to everything, and Is it like
that arm thing yeah?
The whole thing out of goes.
Build the burger, you know, andthere's, you know, humans will
do the finishing touches.
Sure, and that's like, I think,spice over there in Boston.
That is it Daniel Balloud ChefBalloud is a part of with those,
(36:13):
those engineers that designedthose robots that basically do
these, that spinning walk bowl.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And then there you have peoplefinishing it and then out it
goes.
Chef James (36:26):
What do you think about that?
Chef Massey (36:27):
I mean, you know it's hard because I think in
some sides, I guess again we'regetting away from some of the
ability to have the craft orthat element involved.
But in some establishments likefast, casual or healthcare,
even where maybe somebody isworking on those lines that it's
(36:48):
like wow, you may have toconsider that you could do put
something there like that.
Yeah, now, on the sense of youknow the other side of the
culinary world, where you knowhigh end and Michelin star and X
into restaurants and all theway to what you're doing in the
elements, yeah, I don't seeTesla rolling out there and
(37:09):
stacking with you, but I youknow.
Hey, you know if you'relistening yeah we know I would
love to do that yeah right, Imean, but we're looking at an
industry we've taken a prettyhard hit.
So again you said you know,have your cake and eat it too.
I mean, we're in a, you knowwhat do we want, and in some
sides that may be dishwasher tothese positions, you know.
(37:34):
But boy, if it's not a littlescary too, yeah yeah, certainly
it is.
Chef James (37:41):
Yeah, I mean I don't know.
I think the other thing that Ifeel so old saying this, and
this is a whole discussion initself.
But you know, I get to thisstage now in my life where I'm
hiring, looking at younger folks, and I see some of the passion
like for me.
I'm always like banging on thisdrum in the Berkshires that I
like.
Why can't we have more of acommunity?
(38:03):
I mean, I've gone to the likebeer dinner with several other
chefs in the Berkshires here,been a part of that and it's so
much fun.
Every time I do it it's like, oh, I'm so reminded of why this is
amazing and what can we do?
I don't know if it's just asymptom of everyone's so
overtaxed here in the Berkshireswhere they don't have the
bandwidth to be able to think ofa bigger picture, to do
(38:23):
something that could be, I don'tknow, something where we all,
just you know, could maybe do adinner.
Chef Massey (38:29):
Berkshire Grown used to do dinners like that
sort of a maple dinner.
Yeah, that's right, I'm notsure.
Chef James (38:33):
Do you know if they're still doing those?
Chef Massey (38:35):
I haven't heard of those.
I don't know.
Yeah, they had stopped therefor a minute, I thought, but
they were doing it over at Mir.
Was it Cranwell back in the day?
Chef James (38:43):
I feel like it rotated.
There was a dinner, that.
So, peter Platt, one of yourepisodes here, right before
COVID came, I sat down with himand a bunch of the chefs, and
it's funny.
One of them is Ben, who used tobe at Alta they have Dare
Bottle Shop in Lenox and weworked with them on a couple of
dinners, but it was going to besomething like that, like a
(39:04):
Berkshire Grown dinner.
Of course the plug got pulled,yeah.
Chef Massey (39:09):
Right.
Chef James (39:10):
You know.
So you know that said goingwith like a younger generation,
I've hired people where you seeit in the day, I sort of see
that twinkle on the same thing,but like there's a as I think
with all of us maybe when we'reyoung, I certainly can attest to
myself you do have to pay yourdues and this industry is not,
you know, as long as you'redoing stuff.
I think like we've had issuesbefore where I want to bring
(39:31):
folks out to go foraging, but wealso there's the work that has
to get done too.
Chef Massey (39:35):
Right, and so you know you're picking in the field
and going back building themenu and doing it that night.
Chef James (39:39):
Yeah, Because nobody wants to be there until 10.30
on a Friday getting ready for a,you know, big day on Saturday,
Right, Right, exactly.
Chef Massey (39:46):
And those are the challenges, you know.
So I mean, hopefully, maybethat opens it up to you know,
those of you that are listening,maybe there's a an opportunity,
as we get to the other side ofsome of these challenges, we can
start that up again.
You know, because I think we'rejust existing in this moment.
Chef James (40:02):
Yeah, you know, and it's hard to get it and maybe
I'm just out of touch too, butyou know railroad street youth
project where I think they maybestill have this culinary sort
of I'm not sure they saw thatprogram.
Chef Massey (40:13):
Yeah, they did.
Z Vasos.
Chef Vasos was a big piece tothat for quite some time.
I don't know if he's stilldoing that or not.
I'd have to go back to thewebsite, but that was.
Chef James (40:24):
That's a great opportunity, it is yeah, and
maybe it's just a matter ofconnecting some dots, because I
would love to be a part of that,and have people come on.
Yeah, that'd be great so wehave to yeah, yeah, and we have
to support each other,absolutely.
Chef Massey (40:36):
It's such a great point.
So, all right.
Well, james, thank you forbeing here.
It was great to share the timeand thanks for enlightening me
more.
You know I've had a respect andappreciation and I'm pretty
wise between the ears stillnowadays, but but you know, I
think having good conversation,you know, thank you for all of
that.
Chef James (40:55):
Absolutely.
I feel, like we barelyscratched the surface, but we
did Absolutely Thank you.
Chef Massey (41:02):
Yeah, my pleasure, and it'd be great to do this
again.
So, jackson, thank you, andit's good to see you back from
LA.
Chef James (41:07):
Thank you, good to have you Good to have you.
Chef Massey (41:11):
Where can we find your stuff?
Chef James (41:13):
Oh yeah, our stuff, AeroLoomFirecom, and we do have
a dinner.
I just think there may be a fewseats open that are going to be
at the Berkshire BotanicalGardens.
Oh wow, 30th.
I want to say Okay, so it'sgoing to be the small, highly
interactive dinners with youknow coming up with a whole
bunch of weird stuff which youknow, if we're going to
something, you know if we'regoing to sub out the fire.
I got to bring something also.
(41:33):
Okay, that's exciting.
So a lot of different, you know, interactive components.
Chef Massey (41:37):
Well, we know you will, so people are going to be
very fortunate for that.
So, all right, thank you.
All right, we'll be.
Well, you too.
Take care everyone.
Thank you.
Yeah, all right, everyone.
That is a wrap.
You can check us out if youlike that.
Subscribe Also the Instagram,chefmassie.
Let's keep it simple,chefmassiecom.
(41:58):
Have a good one.
Bye for now.
Service.
Hey everyone, welcome to ChefSense.
I'm your host, Chef MasseyAlright.
We have Chef James Gop fromheirloom fire.
(00:21):
Thank you for being here.
Chef James (00:23):
It's a real pleasure .
Thank you.
I've been looking forward tothis for a while now.
Chef Massey (00:26):
Thank you for your appreciation and listening and
you sharing your passion, yourcraft, your beginning, you know
enlightening all of ourlisteners and you know I'm just
excited to hear about that.
So, yeah, if you want to startfrom your beginning, and how,
food, passion, where did it allcome from?
Yeah, yeah when does that throwthe box away?
Chef James (00:43):
mentality.
Yeah, it's interesting, it's alot.
You know I'm not.
I mean, I came from a verystrong food-driven family
growing up and it was somethinglike I never understood my
grandmother every you knowThanksgiving.
She would start three daysbefore, like you know, preparing
everything and you know saving,you know onion skins and doing
(01:04):
something with them and I just Idon't understand why you're
doing that and the moment Iguess I didn't appreciate it.
As I got older I began toappreciate it more, but I really
myself I came from more of anart background.
Oh yeah, it was more of like.
My mother has all thesepictures of me falling asleep,
sketching with a pen in my hand.
Chef Massey (01:19):
Oh, that's cool.
Chef James (01:20):
Okay, I always loved Halloween and you know
different masks and things andone year you know this is, I
think, sort of what reallydeveloped my basis, for how can
I look at something throughnowadays?
I say, look at it through theheirloom fire lens.
So one year I bought, like thisfoam latex mask that I, you
know, had somebody help apply tomy face.
It wasn't quite the right sizefor my face.
So the next year is like, well,can I do it myself?
(01:43):
And that's the way I'veapproached everything.
And chef knives that I use likeI studied about how to
blacksmith and make those andhandles from night or from bones
that are from local steer youknow taking those pounding those
out.
So, yeah, I just actually hadreally all started with a girl,
I think, with, I mean, I don'tknow, I think a lot of people's
journeys in life.
But I did work at Guido's FreshMarketplace in Great Barrington
(02:05):
.
Chef Massey (02:05):
Okay, oh, I think I saw that ad they're doing great
.
They've got that store.
Oh my God, talk about.
Chef James (02:10):
Disneyland yeah, and it has does has not seemed to
slow down.
And you know, when I was just ayoung buck, I didn't seek out
working there.
It wasn't like, oh my God, Iwant to be involved in food and
was hiring.
And then that's where I reallyunderstood, like having a peach
in.
August, like you want to bestepping out like standing over
a bathtub when you bite into ityes, right, right Good heirloom
apples, understandingseasonality and, you know, then,
(02:32):
of course, getting to meet someof the chefs that came in, you
know.
Chef Massey (02:34):
Dan Smith from John Andrews he's great to you, he's
the best.
Chef James (02:38):
Yeah, and I had an issue with my Hobart mixer, my
A200.
He just happened to reach out,I forgot.
We've exchanged phone numbers,like I have a planetary shaft,
so yeah, he's a, he's a greatguy.
But then you see, those guyscome in.
You know, I've always like thatphrase.
I always love a man in auniform.
Chef Massey (02:54):
Yeah, it's like oh, it's a chef.
Chef James (02:55):
So then I'm like going over and I'm showing you
how to get this pursuit in andall this type of stuff.
Yeah, yeah, that's where Ireally enjoyed, you know, an
understood seasonality.
And then I met a woman whobasically was like, what are you
doing?
I'm like, well, because anytimeI ever had a crush on anybody,
it would be like I'd bake themsome sort of chocolate goodie or
something like that and thatwould typically be it, but this
one was like working there forthe summer.
What are you doing?
Well, let's start looking atculinary schools.
Chef Massey (03:16):
Oh, okay.
Chef James (03:17):
So I went to New York City.
I went to the Institute ofCulinary Education okay was on
West 23rd Street in Manhattanand Chelsea and what an amazing
experience that was.
And if I could find a way tobottle that energy ever again,
to be able to work at Guido'sMonday through Friday, head out
there into the expedited just ohmy gosh, where is that at?
Chef Massey (03:35):
Yeah, yeah, welcome here.
Chef James (03:38):
We are yeah here, and it was a real weird thing to
then, you know, kind of leavethat course.
And then you know, looking atthe art aspect, because I would
take cast to my friend's facesand put, you know, I'd make a
clay mold on top of it.
It could be either silicone orfoam latex.
So you'd spend like a month onsomething, application, doing
teeth and whatnot.
So when it came to food, doinga multiple dish, somebody goes
(04:01):
to eat it.
No, no, no, don't touch that,it's not meant to be eaten.
Yeah, so that was a real eyeopening thing.
For me.
To understand over the periodof time is that it's about the
entire experience.
It's about to eat with our eyesfirst, Right right absolutely
so, yeah, and I got.
I worked at the Wheatly for aperiod of time.
Oh, okay, the Olden of the Green, so I tried to find these
places Very cool and then, for alittle bit, it was.
(04:23):
You know, for me, I enjoy thesetypes of things, these personal
connections.
Yep, I'm much more of anintrovert, so it's it's weird
that I own a company that catersto massive amounts of people.
Yeah, but I enjoy the clientthat I'm working with.
So, yeah, working inrestaurants, I never got the
satisfaction of, you know, beingable to pair something for
somebody, and it needs somebodyto pat me on the back and say,
(04:45):
hey, great job.
I think it was just this aspectof taking care of somebody Sure
, you know, and curtailing thatentire experience to them.
Yeah, so, honestly, truth is Igot burnt out.
I've been burnt out a few times, and I think it's important
where a lot of cooks don't, Iyou know, actually pay attention
to when that happens, becauseyou can stay on the pot for too
long, you bet.
So, you know, I took a breakand there was a local butcher
(05:07):
shop that was looking for help.
They had some open firecatering stuff.
Oh, Jeremy.
Stanton, yeah, yeah.
Chef Massey (05:13):
Yep, yep.
Chef James (05:13):
Yep and I went and helped him for one event and I
was like, oh my God, this isamazing, you can be cooking over
fire outdoors.
Yeah, it's a totally differentgame and at that point it was
simple.
It was like you know, roastingpigs and vegetables and things
like that.
And it was a lot of fun and sure.
So then shortly thereafter Iended up managing that company
and managing the butcher shopand did that for about maybe
(05:34):
three or four years and then gotto a stage where you know just
professional differences andsure it's overstayed my time
there and got kind of burnt out.
And I got burnt out again thelast big time, as was, you know,
it's like I don't even know ifI want to be in the food
industry anymore.
Wow.
But then I ended up working at.
I knew I wanted to be involvedsomehow, so I ended up working
(05:55):
at Taft Farms.
Chef Massey (05:56):
Oh yeah, that's right, that's right, that's
right.
I think that's when I first metyou.
Yeah, yeah, you had boys downthere and they weren't picking
out Kyle.
Oh yeah, oh yes, Absolutelyyeah.
Another sweetheart yeah, he's agood guy.
Oh yeah, no, he's great.
Yeah, and did they?
Chef James (06:09):
yeah, worked there and then happened to just come
across.
You know, developingprofessional relationships with
clients and you know it'ssomething I often think about in
life is we always have theseparticular moments that come up.
That may or may not makes itmakes something.
Sure.
You know, I ended up getting aRight.
Before I started working at thefarm, I got this flu.
I thought it was like a realserious, just seasonal flu, but
(06:30):
turned out it was Lyme disease.
Chef Massey (06:32):
Oh, you have that too.
Chef James (06:33):
Yeah, the most amazing diet I've ever been on.
I didn't have to do anything.
I lost weight Really I lostlike 20 pounds.
I just had this like feverconstant.
Oh, it's horrible, it's reallyhorrible, and that's so right
Going to work at Taft Farms andthe Blazing Sun taking
Doxycycline.
Chef Massey (06:47):
Yes, I was doing, yeah.
Chef James (06:49):
You got to have like a cowboy hat and putting the
stuff on top of your ears andwhatnot.
Yeah, A lot of fun, but anyhow,a connection that I had made, a
really high profile celebritywas going to be their party and
I didn't have any equipment.
It was nothing right, yeah you?
Yeah.
This person reached out andsaid basically the handler or
the assistant to this person wassaying you know, can we?
(07:11):
we have this event coming up?
Can I talk to you tomorrow?
And that was on Sunday and Iwas so sick and I was like, yeah
, absolutely for sure.
So you know, they can only seeme on the other side of the
camera.
I was like draped with ablanket over me, yeah, and the
person was like, oh, it'sso-and-so's birthday this
weekend and a lot of othercelebrities are going to be
there and start name droppingthings and like, do you think we
can do something?
I'm like, oh yeah, of course,of course I don't have anything.
(07:33):
Yeah, no equipment.
So got off the phone, called upmy cousin who had worked with
me intimately at that point atthat company and we literally
built the business in five daysUnbelievable.
Chef Massey (07:43):
We built an oven.
Chef James (07:44):
One of my best friends who was also wedding
planner Magdalena, yep,magdalena, oh yeah, this one.
So she was like sewingtablecloths and making props,
and the reason I bring that upis that I often think about that
.
Had it not been for thatparticular celebrity, would I be
sitting here today?
Chef Massey (08:00):
Yeah, you know.
Chef James (08:00):
Yeah, what I just simply said no, unfortunately, I
don't have anything Right, andbusiness just kept coming and I
was like well, actually, youknow what I really enjoy this
now that I'm in control, yeah,yeah.
And then we just started offwith five events and you know,
2018, no, I'm sorry, 2022 waslike a banner year for us.
We did 38 events.
Chef Massey (08:20):
Oh, wow, okay.
Chef James (08:21):
Got to do an event for really one of my idols in
life, so it's like checked off abox, Dan Barber.
Chef Massey (08:26):
Oh, yep, yep, Absolutely.
Chef James (08:28):
Sure, and then finished our season in Nashville
, tennessee, with Sean Brock.
Oh, there you go.
It was great, okay.
Yeah, it was a great year.
It was outstanding man, yeah.
Chef Massey (08:35):
And I think too, for our listeners, because we do
get a variety of people.
We're not talking commercialkitchen and like combi oven and
all these.
You know French range andyou've got all this equipment
that you're wrapped in.
Your experience is somethingthat is this immersion
opportunity, that is a, in asense, this food theater, and
(08:59):
you are really captivatingpeople not just by the senses of
what is on the plate, but theminute that they step into, even
probably talking to you abouttheir opportunity to work with
you.
It really is a culinaryspiritual experience, to be
honest.
I mean, because you're usingwood, you're using crafted metal
(09:21):
and you're out in the elements.
So I just everybody.
This is kind of more of whatwe're talking about and it is a
special situation because youreally find out what you're made
of being in these environments.
Yeah, sorry, I just had to.
Chef James (09:36):
No, don't be sorry.
Yeah, I think that's correct.
I didn't do a great job at allof explaining.
Yeah, appreciate that.
Yeah, it's a really interestingthing.
It's kind of like takestraditional catering and flips
it on its head, in a sense thata lot of ways people are cooking
90% of the food offsite andthen bringing it in where we're
cooking 90% of the food on sitethe day of and you're absolutely
right, I mean last year andit's just.
(09:57):
You know, it's so interesting.
There's so many differentthings.
You're combating wind speed,quality of the wood you know we
for a while we were getting youknow because you have to call.
You're not allowed to transportwood across really even county
borders due to the emerald ashborer problem.
Oh, right, so you really have tobe getting it from the areas
you're working in.
A lot of times, if we'reworking someplace in New
(10:18):
Hampshire or Rhode Island, wehave no idea the quality of the
wood.
I don't know these people.
Chef Massey (10:23):
So they could need to be dried longer and then and
there's a lot of times it showsup either, feels like they cut
it down on the way.
Super green yeah.
Chef James (10:32):
Or punky and moldy.
And again, you know we had doneanother really high profile
wedding, was like the biggest ofour time and we like we had all
the food prepped and none ofthe like the fires couldn't get
going.
I called the guy up and I can Iget some seasoned wood?
He's like what do you mean?
Just throw a can of gasoline?
Chef Massey (10:51):
So I'm cooking over it and it's yeah, come try this
food now?
Chef James (10:54):
Yeah, exactly, I'm just planning that, yeah you can
have the first round of it,yeah.
Chef Massey (10:57):
Yeah.
Chef James (10:58):
So you know, but that's the thing is like.
You're absolutely right, itshows you what you're made of.
You know, like with, like apropane grill or range or
whatever You're like.
Oh, I know where the hotspotsare.
Like you're not, you'recreating the hotspots.
And we did an event this pastyear was water up above my boots
which is like, you know, sortof cowboy calf boots.
We had to find things and wejust make it work.
Chef Massey (11:18):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know.
Chef James (11:19):
I had a.
I had a chef a traditional sortof chef that came and worked
with us this year and it hadbeen raining constantly and this
was a particularly rainy eventand you know she had a really
great you know perspectivelooking at it and get stressed
at all.
But the rest of the team werejust like, yeah, it's raining
again, you know.
So that's where you know havingthat team, that where you know
(11:39):
you go through enough things andthe thing that I think I'm the
most proud of this obviouslyworking with amazing clients and
doing beautiful food.
But from the back end, I get togo on the weekends or on the
yeah, basically the biggest day.
You know we have prep and wehave the day.
I really look forward to seeingmy friends and my family.
Chef Massey (11:54):
you know to be able to cook.
Chef James (11:55):
And then, when you go through all kinds of heck
with each other, you can realizethat you know what.
You look to the person to yourleft and the person to your
right, and you can accomplishanything.
Chef Massey (12:04):
You can go on a battle with those people and
they've got your back.
Yeah, yeah, 100% Right.
And you know, I mean there's somany questions involved with
you know what you do that I findso intriguing.
I mean, I've done some of theseevents but nothing like you
know, like outstanding in thefield.
And you know, I understand andrespect the fact of I love, you
know, open fire cooking andbeing out in the elements, but
(12:26):
again, it is also the menuengineering that you do with
going even further into it andforaging or using some of these
items from that regional area tohave a voice on that menu.
That's a main.
I mean you're dropping in andlogistically you have to think
(12:48):
of your team.
You have to think of whatyou're bringing.
You have to think can I putthis stuff here?
You know, I mean there's a lotyou're dealing with and I'm just
rattling, but then you'redealing with the fires and
you're prepping an X andexecution and you know you're
even doing these stations alongthe way and you carry people
through an event.
I mean this is really this is alot of strategic and craft
(13:13):
formulation and that's why I'mcalling it a craft, because you
know, again, I love what I doand I'm very talented in it, but
I love that opportunity to gothat much further.
It's pretty amazing.
Chef James (13:25):
Yeah, I mean first and foremost to that.
I will always say the SuningTamah in sight, because I
realize that sure I may have theideas, but without the team
that I have you can neverexecute.
So you know, I'm the firstperson to tell everybody all the
time because I sincerely meanit is that I have the best team.
Chef Massey (13:40):
You know Now there's been.
Chef James (13:42):
You know, I have one guy that, who used to be my
boss at Guido's in the producedepartment, who's been with me
since the beginning, plus some.
Wow, that's so cool, yeah, andhe's graduated from dishwashing
or turning proteins and nowreally one of the most essential
pieces of the kitchen iscooking and open fire ovens, you
know so I mean then there aresome other turnover, you know
(14:03):
pieces of people that come injust due to, you know,
seasonality or whatever it maybe.
But you know, I think it'sreally important when it comes
to like a leadership aspect is,you know it's my job to really
like, first and foremost, youhave to love what you do, yeah
absolutely.
And then people have got on myyou know chops before about
finding a work to life balance,which is fine.
I'm not really sure if I'mdoing that, but I think when you
(14:24):
almost demonize the work aspect, when you, when you have to
institute this idea of you, haveto find a balance I have, but
also like if what I do I'm veryfortunate to have found what I
do that actually feeds me, youknow so that's what I love.
So it's my job to really set upmy team.
I do have it's a very smallskeleton crew back at the shop
(14:45):
that our shops, that we havethere.
But you know, on site for doingan event for 200 people, we
could easily have, you know,eight or nine cooks in the
kitchen that are working andthen you know, if it's for 200
people, probably around oh, Idon't know 18 or 19 for the
house members.
Chef Massey (14:59):
Yeah.
Chef James (14:59):
So it's a small village that we're doing all
this and you know, I really tryto pay attention to each person
in their roles, see what they'redoing and constantly try to
give them a little bit more, tokind of see Sure, absolutely,
did they rise?
Did they like it?
Does it speak to them?
Chef Massey (15:11):
Yeah, well, and you're again.
You're dealing with all theother turbulence in the waters
too, you know, for staffingstruggles, and now you have an
operation that you're setting upout there and you're taking
people staff members, if they'renew and you're like, hey,
you're going from a commercialkitchen setting to learning, you
know, because that tending afire for me is a very spiritual
(15:33):
thing.
It comes to the indigenous sideof my family where it's life's
existence, and feeding a fire iskind of like being a parent and
you've got to understand whenit needs to be moved, when it
needs to be guided in the waythat you see helping it to its
future.
So that's where you know thatappreciation of dealing with all
(15:55):
these elements and then alsothat love for, you know,
community and you know I comefrom a multi-generational
farming family, so I spent a lotof time, you know, picking up
mainline and doing a lot ofthese things.
And you know that's where Ithink it's very special that
there's a chef and then we'realso artists and I think when we
(16:17):
are driven, that could be avery challenging trajectory,
depending on how we deliver ourmessage of internal fire.
And you know that's where Irespect the fact of first, you
know, knowing that I need aboundary.
You know, because I have goneinto those situations where you
know Steph has said is this whenis it ever going to be enough
(16:38):
for you?
You know, and to that point inmy head right then I was like I
don't know, keep going.
You know, so you have thisexistence kind of lifestyle that
it is challenging, it is hardand you are consumed, you know,
on so many ways the financialside, admin side, to menu
creation, to staffing challenges.
(16:59):
So for you to do this out inthe open is just it's kind of a
marvel, you know.
Chef James (17:04):
Yeah Well, thank you , it takes a lot and there's a
lot of stuff you touched onthere.
And it's so interesting becausewhen I bring somebody on, I
will tell you to this date sofar, yeah, having somebody that
has only culinary experience,that have been a career cook,
ultimately it doesn't reallywork out with us.
A lot of the people that I havethat work with us on site are
(17:25):
people that are.
They all have second jobs andit's interesting because,
considering the amount of work,I mean it's, like you know,
typically a 14 to 15 hour day onsite.
Yeah, we show up, we set up thekitchen Right, you know, from
soup to nuts, we do our best.
I mean, you know, I'm also likean insane football coach.
At the end of the you knowevent, I'll go through social
media and look at every singlepicture that may have been
(17:45):
tagged to see if there'sanything out of place, and then
I will screenshot those thingsand circle them and send it to
the appropriate person.
Yeah, yeah but you know, theaverage age for my team is
probably about 45 to 50, whichis kind of interesting.
Yeah, when I've had people thatare professional chefs, they
come in, they're used to comingin and setting up their station,
(18:07):
yeah, and that's no longer it.
I mean, there's a differentthing where it's like, you know,
we got to set up stuff and thenwe have our moments.
We have like cocktail hourcomes.
That's the nice part.
Once we know cocktail hour, isthere past apps.
You know stationary.
We have like a beautiful burklemeat slicer that we're slicing.
Those are great, they reallyare.
And our charcuterie program,too, is like.
(18:28):
Another thing we really try tofocus on is waste reduction.
So for us like this time of yearis a great example when we use
winter squash, right so fordoing a preparation, maybe we
peel the squash and then we packit into our good food cooler,
bring it back to the shop andput in our X caliber dehydrator
and dehydrate that and thengrind it up into a powder that
we can use as like a finishingseasoning or a very cool Seeds.
(18:50):
We'll take the seeds out we'llsame deal bring it back to the
shop, soak them, take off themembranes, roast them and then
press them into an oil.
So with the oil we can setaside and then the seeds that
come out of the oil press we canincorporate that, maybe with
that seed powder.
So then now, next time we dothe dish we're using and then
we'll roast the flesh, anythingwe can't repurpose, like maybe
(19:11):
leftover sourdough bread becausewe have so many breadcrumbs-
and maybe some dessert cakes orwhatever.
those goes to a container forour livestock farmers who come
and pick it up so they feed itto their animals all throughout
the season.
At the end of the season we'llpurchase those animals from them
and then turn them intocharcuterie for the next season
Right, and you are doing thewhole setup as well with that
(19:31):
curing, eating the whole.
Yes.
And that's another thing to thestory, right, it's just very
powerful, yeah, and you have tocome up with a shop sometime and
see it, because it's abeautiful system.
Chef Massey (19:41):
Yeah, I would be extremely heightened.
I'm sure I couldn't help myself.
But, you know, be like a kid ina candy store with that, you
know.
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Back to the episode.
Can you give an example?
I think there was one you haddone in Florida in an event that
was just like, wow, I have gotto go all the way down there.
I mean, that was crazy too.
Yeah, that was during COVID.
(21:11):
Also okay, wow, so it was reallycrazy.
Chef James (21:13):
So it was like late 2019, they had me to come down
to just do a site visit.
They put me up.
It was at this, say, ritzCarlton place.
No, yeah, I think it was RitzCarlton.
It'll come to me.
Chef Massey (21:25):
Oh, no worries.
Chef James (21:26):
But yeah, the first thing was, you know I'm from the
country up here in themountains.
Yeah, where they take me out, Iget there like, all right, we
have the whole everything set upfor you.
We're going to be going fishing, so you might want to pack a
pair of shorts.
Well, I don't own shorts, Idon't typically.
So we're out there on, you know, in a boat and you know,
catching vermillion red snapperand it was, it was fun, it was
(21:49):
super fun, right.
But then we go back, we'resitting down and then, right
when we got there, they madeCrudo almost immediately with it
and sent it up to us as, likeyou know, something to nibble on
Now being landlocked.
I've never had fish that fresh.
It was like you know the sortof you know culinary directors
oh, this is great.
So, even before the rigor setin, oh, wow.
So it was like eating thesesalty tabs of like sea butter.
(22:11):
It was like the most amazing.
So they had asked because, youknow, every once, every once a
year, we try to do a ticketedevent where we create a culinary
experience in a place that'snot normally set up, so there's
not going to be any poweraccessible, no bathrooms, so
it's, we're bringing all that in.
Yeah, you know, we did a dinnerinside an old cement mine in
Rosendale, new York once, wherethe dinner itself was in this
(22:32):
cement mine.
That was half covered in waterand half.
There was a lot, of, a lot offun.
So they asked me to create anexperience down there.
So that's like you know, workingwith things that we don't even
have up here, you know and a lotof things we work with up here,
too, is invasive species, soJapanese knotweed buckthorn, you
know, garlic mustard, alldifferent kinds of stuff, yeah.
(22:52):
So yeah, it was reallyinteresting to crack into that
and understand the wild boardown there, the lionfish, which
is like really essential.
Chef Massey (23:00):
Yeah, Connery Bay was saying something about.
Chef James (23:02):
Yeah, oh, they're horrible, yeah they'll start to
people that right, they want toget it.
So basically, for folks thatdon't know, an invasive species
is classified.
As you know, we take somethingout of its regular ecosystem and
ecosystem develops to keepeverything in check.
Now it can be from the bacteriain the soil to the birds that
may be eating something.
To then what eats the birds andwhat eats whatever on top of it
(23:24):
.
So, out of Florida, they evenhave a problem with the Burmese
python, oh wow.
You know what.
The natural predator that keepsa Burmese python in check is A
Bengal tiger.
They're not just sort ofhanging out down there walking
on the floor right.
So right.
So these are all things likewhen I look at it, because the
big thing for me is a purpose,like what is sure I want to cook
and everything, but what is thebigger purpose, the bigger
(23:46):
cause, right, right.
So you know, frag mites or evennot, we are brought in as
ornamentals that then, once youtake it out of its own ecosystem
, there's nothing that keeps itin check.
Chef Massey (23:55):
So it goes bonkers.
Chef James (23:57):
So, instead of looking at that as like a pest
where we want to spray it withsome kind of pesticide or
whatever.
There's like we love not.
We work it all year round whenit comes up in the spring, we'll
cover it and kind of treat itlike white asparagus.
Chef Massey (24:08):
That's cool.
Chef James (24:08):
Yeah, I kind of blanch it Okay yeah, and then
after that take it out, thenblanch it in salted water and
then can I keep it in like avinaigrette and it tastes just
like artichoke hearts oh, no,kidding, really beautiful and
and it's so prevalent it'sridiculous like wow, and it's
the best part is it's you.
You can't beat the price.
Chef Massey (24:24):
Okay, it's a great, you know great, price free.
Yeah, you're going well.
And that's the other thing inthe experience of, you know,
your staff members, like I, wasusing milkweed pods, yeah you
know, and and pickling nose andit almost has this okra like
Profile to it, but it was, youknow, doing those sorts of
things.
Again, I think it's it'smindfulness in my mind to be
(24:45):
where my feet are, not only justas a chef, but again going to
my native foundation that youknow it's, it's very powerful
and for you being that Pulledinto it, it's just it's
wonderful to see.
Chef James (24:58):
I wanted to ask you, given your heritage, I cannot
remember the chef's name, but hehas a cookbook called the sous
chef.
Chef Massey (25:04):
Oh, yeah, I for.
Yeah, he's, he's Lakota.
Yep, yeah, do you have thatbook?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Chef James (25:10):
So inspirational so because of that, I didn't even
think about this.
Yeah, he was talking aboutusing juniper berries while
juniper berries.
Yeah, and it's so interesting,around here we don't have many
cedar trees that are gonna bebearing them.
I just think it's just slightlywarmer over in New York State.
Yeah, the growing zone isdifferent.
It's gonna go over there andcollect those and dry those, and
you've been using those ascracked pepper on yes.
Medicine dish or something youknow.
(25:31):
You know, if you, as long asyou have, like a blueberry comb,
one of those, you go to theshrubs.
You can collect quite a bitright on Sherman, is it?
Chef Massey (25:38):
Oh yeah, that's a regular old Jamie.
Yeah, that's, I know right,pulling it up, yeah, yeah
totally got us.
Chef James (25:45):
Yeah, no, I mean, that is, that's right.
Chef Massey (25:49):
He does a lot of work and I think you know, again
, when you're looking atindigenous eating, you know
there's some very that's verysimple.
You're taking that aspect andit's the same thing with our
settlers, any one of us that hasbeen placed in these
Environments, where you'relearning your surroundings.
Yes, you know the spruce tipsor you know Spruce syrup or some
(26:12):
of these things that you knowthat we're doing.
Like I'm getting ready, I'vegot maple sap going and, like
Dan barber now using it with thewaters and you're not fully
reducing it for syrup.
You're in fancy.
So I think it's again.
It's very powerful To showpeople, at least from my side,
that if you just slow down inthis world that we live in
(26:34):
Mm-hmm, and you take a minute tobe out at one of your events,
see all the hard work that youall are doing, or going and
gorging, getting burdock root,watercress or sun choke, it's a
spiritual Existence, primarilyfor me that as a leader, it's
the same way I view the woodsand the lands.
(26:54):
We are all connected here for apurpose being able to reach the
land in that way.
You know just that variety.
It shows people your passionfor just being where we are.
Yeah, and I think that's veryimportant.
Chef James (27:08):
I do as well.
Yeah, I mean literally.
You can walk outside andthere's an entire grocery store.
There is, whether it's redclover, white clover, you know.
You have violets that grow outthere.
You could just take a take anhour and pick wild violets in
the springtime you know, ofcourse, not taking too many to
disturb the bees.
No, they're really prolific andthen make a syrup out of that,
(27:28):
because for me, when it comesdown to it, it's like food is
great, a good recipe is good,but the best enhancement to a
recipe is a story.
Absolutely, if you can excitepeople about.
Yeah, do you see that out there?
Oh, or you know what?
During COVID, a big thing wedid was doing these cooking
classes at people's houses.
So I'd bring one of my ovensand we'd set it up and we would
put together a whole menu andwhile food was cooking, I would
(27:49):
then take them on their propertyand show them what's growing
and the excitement to see whatto people.
Chef Massey (27:55):
Yeah, I realize that you know I do something
with it.
Chef James (27:58):
I mean, I'm just a big you know, big fan of you
know.
Think about like when friendswas really big, or Game of
Thrones or wherever it's likeyou know you come in.
Oh, just see what happened lastnight.
There's that water, watercooler talk, and if somebody
doesn't know then you caneducate them and there's a
beautiful Exchange there.
Chef Massey (28:13):
Oh, it's really amazing.
Yeah, any challenges that youbecause you pop up, you're
looking, you have to look atyour setup, what the terrain
looks like.
I mean, what kind of challengesother than quite a bit Do you
deal with?
I mean Set up logistics ofgetting everybody there.
I mean it's unbelievable.
Chef James (28:31):
Yeah, it definitely has its challenges.
I would say the biggestchallenge.
I mean, it's really it's.
It's funny, it's year to year,you know so yeah, because you're
going by the elements.
Chef Massey (28:40):
Your slow time, or is there a slow time?
Well, we've been trying to ascrazy as this is.
Chef James (28:46):
Yeah, because it we go so hard from essentially May
until November.
Yeah, and that's where you know, when we did 38 events of 52
weeks in a year, it's, it's,it's a lot, you know.
We could do an event on a Fridayin one location and then we
could do an event on Saturday ina completely different location
.
Yeah, we ended up.
So we ended up doing this event, which I was amazing.
(29:08):
You know for this otherhigh-profile wedding that we had
done this.
The planner had called me twoweeks before the event and it
was like oh, we're doing thisevent in the Long Island.
I know you probably can'tactually do it and Mike boss for
you.
Chef Massey (29:19):
Of course I'm going to tell him that though I'm
like, yeah, we can make happen.
Chef James (29:22):
So we did this.
You know several, you know it'sit's a lot of prep leading up.
Yeah, we do 90% of the work onsite, but you know we're also
trying to keep up on fermentingforage.
Oh yeah you know, our the shop.
We're doing things like, youknow, a oldies or salad
dressings or something of thatnature.
So we did that event.
That's like 12 hours all in.
They wanted to do a late nightso I left two members of the
team there, I made it get into avehicle and then, you know,
(29:45):
logistically set up an Airbnbtwo hours away, you know, hoping
there's no traffic or whatever.
So then we drive out, crashthere, get up, you know, have
breakfast around the road againto drive another two hours.
It's four hours away,everyone's dog tired and it's
for a 30 person party.
And you know, thankfully.
You know I mean it's like wegot it done because that's how
we do it, but it is like cometypically like a Sunday.
(30:05):
I'm like dead to the gotta beabsolutely other challenges.
I would say you know we'realways going to me, for me, like
, this is the thing all day longwe will plan as we should, but
also there's gonna be curveballs.
You just have to accept that.
Yeah, it was like I always tellthe team.
It's not about like how muchyou plan, it's about getting
rocked on the chin and stillmoving forward.
(30:26):
And also not letting them see asweat.
Chef Massey (30:29):
Right, that's the big thing you know.
Chef James (30:31):
So you know, dealing with the curve balls or
something, I just sort of havebecome second nature.
But yeah, I mean, I think thoseare the big things I mean
truthfully in this area.
The thing that I'm really Imean it's in.
This is a challenge that Idon't know, as though it's
solely for just on me, but thething I worry about, and the
thing that ultimately doesaffect me, I guess in the same
(30:52):
way is that we're really pushingthe envelope when it comes to
food, and I wanted you that andI want to also share that with
people.
Yeah, now, the thing that scaresme is that I feel like in this
area and I know that it's justbecoming increasingly More
expensive to live here it'sharder to get people here.
Is that okay?
Ultimately, no one's going towork for you forever.
(31:13):
If they do, and they're reallygreat employee, you know, bless
your stars and everything, butif they leave, you want to set
them up for success and you wantthe next thing they go Onto to,
really to give them anotherexperience in this area, and
those are the things I worryabout here, and I think it also
is limiting to having access toreally skilled cooks.
That's the big thing is thatI've that's.
(31:35):
That's the wall I'm hitting now.
Yeah, yeah, with having youknow somebody that's gonna be a
key member of my team becauseultimately, the goal is to grow
into something where we cancontrol the entire experience.
Yeah, I love having people upto our tasting room for small,
because we do intimate dinnersup there as well.
Chef Massey (31:51):
Oh OK.
Chef James (31:52):
Yeah, we can do dinners for 24 people.
We just do one where I gohunting with my neighbor and
that's kind of how I start asone here.
He asked me hey, do you want togo hunting?
I'm like yeah, sure, we wentout and got a nice beautiful doe
.
Then I was right around kind ofshortly thereafter with COVID
in 2021,.
I've always wanted to go toNoma.
I had tickets to go to Noma andthe fat duck and it was like oh
, how can you get these tickets?
Chef Massey (32:13):
But then of course COVID hit.
Chef James (32:15):
Yeah, so that was gone.
I'm like, well, if I can't gothere, I want to create my own
version of their game menu.
So it creates something calledWildland, which is sort of a
look at the Berkshire at thattime of year lots of preserves,
going fishing, getting likepickerel wild duck venison and
just playing with a lot of otheringredients, like birch,
working with birch wood.
Chef Massey (32:34):
Oh yeah, have you ever worked with birch wood,
where you get?
Chef James (32:36):
to steep it in cream and milk, it makes the most
amazing ice cream.
Chef Massey (32:39):
No, I have not done that.
No, oh, it's wild.
Chef James (32:42):
And the magic comes when you add vinegar to it.
Chef Massey (32:44):
OK, yep.
Chef James (32:45):
Yeah, we did just do .
This year we did sort of a takeon a deconstructed root beer
float where you get like asassafras ice cream.
That's cool.
Ginger cotton candy.
Chef Massey (32:56):
Yeah, oh OK, and did like a oh, very nice, wow,
man, yeah, and a sassapar.
Chef James (33:00):
It's like you know.
I have one of those vegetablepeelers that can peel the apples
out super long, oh yes, androlled that up and poached that
in a sassaparilla syrup OK, andthen dunked that in a white
chocolate that was flavored withlike a root beer extract
Interesting and then did like awrap around it so it looks like
a log when you cut into it, butall of those components and then
like an anise shortbread cookieto go in oh OK, oh, that's kind
(33:23):
of nice Licorice root yeah.
Oh, very cool.
So playing with that stuff,playing with surround sound up
there, we play with smells, webuild these tables that we can
put a little key into them andwent to remove the center leaf,
you can crank something up andthe charcuterie board came out
of the center of the table.
Not a wild stuff.
Chef Massey (33:38):
So how do you I mean because you know, a
visionary, it's hard for us toyou know you develop your team,
you develop the leadership teamwith you and you, you know the
big goal is to try to be able tobe freed up enough from the
operation so that you can buildthe road ahead while still being
(33:58):
involved with the team.
That's hard.
You're thinking of things thatare.
You know that you may have toget for a number of those to
create that mechanic and theyeah, yeah, it's incredibly
challenging.
Chef James (34:12):
Yeah, it was going.
If you could go back to 2021,when the government was getting
these checks that were, you know, the government was giving
checks people to be able to live, which was great, and we took
advantage of it through abusiness as well.
Okay Of course, but you know, itwas very hard to get local
talent to work Right.
So now, 2021, we're doingevents that we quoted in 2019.
(34:36):
So, you know, we're looking atnow having to bring in a
staffing agency from New YorkCity which we're going to be
paying twice the amount of moneyfor what we had quoted it for,
and then the captain's $80 anhour.
So we took a shellacking, yeahfor sure, in 2021.
But you know, and around herewe're so close to New York City
and so close to Boston, so thefolks that are really passionate
(34:56):
are either going to go to thatplace or maybe they go to a
Mirror of All or what have you.
But that's where, you know, weare taking the team members that
are here and I'm trying toawaken a passion inside of them.
That is certainly the hardestthing to get, I think, right now
, because a lot of people aroundhere I've had folks on that,
you know have made choices intheir lives that maybe in those
(35:18):
moments they didn't think werethe greatest choices, and you
know.
So now they're sort of workingthose out.
But it also interferes with youcan't have your cake and eat it
too, you know.
Chef Massey (35:28):
Yeah, especially in this industry.
Right, like it almost demandseverything out of you.
It absolutely does at alllevels.
That's really hard, yeah.
The thing is is getting theteam together and you know where
we're going with thesechallenges of staffing levels,
with some operations.
Ai is involved, oh yeah, youknow, like that restaurant that
opened in California the otherday, or that has AI.
(35:51):
I mean, it's a burgerrestaurant, sure Quick food, so
they do the burger to the fries,to everything, and Is it like
that arm thing yeah?
The whole thing out of goes.
Build the burger, you know, andthere's, you know, humans will
do the finishing touches.
Sure, and that's like, I think,spice over there in Boston.
That is it Daniel Balloud ChefBalloud is a part of with those,
(36:13):
those engineers that designedthose robots that basically do
these, that spinning walk bowl.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And then there you have peoplefinishing it and then out it
goes.
Chef James (36:26):
What do you think about that?
Chef Massey (36:27):
I mean, you know it's hard because I think in
some sides, I guess again we'regetting away from some of the
ability to have the craft orthat element involved.
But in some establishments likefast, casual or healthcare,
even where maybe somebody isworking on those lines that it's
(36:48):
like wow, you may have toconsider that you could do put
something there like that.
Yeah, now, on the sense of youknow the other side of the
culinary world, where you knowhigh end and Michelin star and X
into restaurants and all theway to what you're doing in the
elements, yeah, I don't seeTesla rolling out there and
(37:09):
stacking with you, but I youknow.
Hey, you know if you'relistening yeah we know I would
love to do that yeah right, Imean, but we're looking at an
industry we've taken a prettyhard hit.
So again you said you know,have your cake and eat it too.
I mean, we're in a, you knowwhat do we want, and in some
sides that may be dishwasher tothese positions, you know.
(37:34):
But boy, if it's not a littlescary too, yeah yeah, certainly
it is.
Chef James (37:41):
Yeah, I mean I don't know.
I think the other thing that Ifeel so old saying this, and
this is a whole discussion initself.
But you know, I get to thisstage now in my life where I'm
hiring, looking at younger folks, and I see some of the passion
like for me.
I'm always like banging on thisdrum in the Berkshires that I
like.
Why can't we have more of acommunity?
(38:03):
I mean, I've gone to the likebeer dinner with several other
chefs in the Berkshires here,been a part of that and it's so
much fun.
Every time I do it it's like, oh, I'm so reminded of why this is
amazing and what can we do?
I don't know if it's just asymptom of everyone's so
overtaxed here in the Berkshireswhere they don't have the
bandwidth to be able to think ofa bigger picture, to do
(38:23):
something that could be, I don'tknow, something where we all,
just you know, could maybe do adinner.
Chef Massey (38:29):
Berkshire Grown used to do dinners like that
sort of a maple dinner.
Yeah, that's right, I'm notsure.
Chef James (38:33):
Do you know if they're still doing those?
Chef Massey (38:35):
I haven't heard of those.
I don't know.
Yeah, they had stopped therefor a minute, I thought, but
they were doing it over at Mir.
Was it Cranwell back in the day?
Chef James (38:43):
I feel like it rotated.
There was a dinner, that.
So, peter Platt, one of yourepisodes here, right before
COVID came, I sat down with himand a bunch of the chefs, and
it's funny.
One of them is Ben, who used tobe at Alta they have Dare
Bottle Shop in Lenox and weworked with them on a couple of
dinners, but it was going to besomething like that, like a
(39:04):
Berkshire Grown dinner.
Of course the plug got pulled,yeah.
Chef Massey (39:09):
Right.
Chef James (39:10):
You know.
So you know that said goingwith like a younger generation,
I've hired people where you seeit in the day, I sort of see
that twinkle on the same thing,but like there's a as I think
with all of us maybe when we'reyoung, I certainly can attest to
myself you do have to pay yourdues and this industry is not,
you know, as long as you'redoing stuff.
I think like we've had issuesbefore where I want to bring
(39:31):
folks out to go foraging, but wealso there's the work that has
to get done too.
Chef Massey (39:35):
Right, and so you know you're picking in the field
and going back building themenu and doing it that night.
Chef James (39:39):
Yeah, Because nobody wants to be there until 10.30
on a Friday getting ready for a,you know, big day on Saturday,
Right, Right, exactly.
Chef Massey (39:46):
And those are the challenges, you know.
So I mean, hopefully, maybethat opens it up to you know,
those of you that are listening,maybe there's a an opportunity,
as we get to the other side ofsome of these challenges, we can
start that up again.
You know, because I think we'rejust existing in this moment.
Chef James (40:02):
Yeah, you know, and it's hard to get it and maybe
I'm just out of touch too, butyou know railroad street youth
project where I think they maybestill have this culinary sort
of I'm not sure they saw thatprogram.
Chef Massey (40:13):
Yeah, they did.
Z Vasos.
Chef Vasos was a big piece tothat for quite some time.
I don't know if he's stilldoing that or not.
I'd have to go back to thewebsite, but that was.
Chef James (40:24):
That's a great opportunity, it is yeah, and
maybe it's just a matter ofconnecting some dots, because I
would love to be a part of that,and have people come on.
Yeah, that'd be great so wehave to yeah, yeah, and we have
to support each other,absolutely.
Chef Massey (40:36):
It's such a great point.
So, all right.
Well, james, thank you forbeing here.
It was great to share the timeand thanks for enlightening me
more.
You know I've had a respect andappreciation and I'm pretty
wise between the ears stillnowadays, but but you know, I
think having good conversation,you know, thank you for all of
that.
Chef James (40:55):
Absolutely.
I feel, like we barelyscratched the surface, but we
did Absolutely Thank you.
Chef Massey (41:02):
Yeah, my pleasure, and it'd be great to do this
again.
So, jackson, thank you, andit's good to see you back from
LA.
Chef James (41:07):
Thank you, good to have you Good to have you.
Chef Massey (41:11):
Where can we find your stuff?
Chef James (41:13):
Oh yeah, our stuff, AeroLoomFirecom, and we do have
a dinner.
I just think there may be a fewseats open that are going to be
at the Berkshire BotanicalGardens.
Oh wow, 30th.
I want to say Okay, so it'sgoing to be the small, highly
interactive dinners with youknow coming up with a whole
bunch of weird stuff which youknow, if we're going to
something, you know if we'regoing to sub out the fire.
I got to bring something also.
(41:33):
Okay, that's exciting.
So a lot of different, you know, interactive components.
Chef Massey (41:37):
Well, we know you will, so people are going to be
very fortunate for that.
So, all right, thank you.
All right, we'll be.
Well, you too.
Take care everyone.
Thank you.
Yeah, all right, everyone.
That is a wrap.
You can check us out if youlike that.
Subscribe Also the Instagram,chefmassie.
Let's keep it simple,chefmassiecom.
(41:58):
Have a good one.
Bye for now.
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