March 6, 2024 • 44 mins
We sit down with the extraordinary Linh Aven, a chef who's seamlessly blending the realms of science and culinary arts. Our latest episode is more than just a conversation; it's a journey through Linh's transition from the world of molecular medicine to the forefront of the culinary industry. We reminisce about times spent restaurant consulting and how Linh's bold leap into sustainable farming is reshaping our relationship with food.
As we wander through the enchanting world of foraging, I share my familial ties to the ancient practice, while Linh enlightens us on the transformative potential of natural ingredients like pine syrup and shagbark hickory. Our discussion ventures into the wild, offering a primer on the art of foraging with respect and wisdom, and unveiling the hidden flavors that nature bestows upon those who seek them. Linh and I underline the importance of safe foraging and the profound respect for the land that it entails, as we reveal how these foraged treasures are revolutionizing culinary innovation.
We tackle the pressing issues of sustainability and the future of farming. Listen as we delve into the heart of sustainable practices, from the significance of soil health to the art of seed saving. We celebrate the resilience of local farms, especially in the wake of global challenges, and discuss the necessity of nurturing a new generation of passionate farmers. Through the story of Linh's farm and our shared insights, we aim to inspire listeners to reflect on the food we eat and the earth it comes from, emphasizing that the roots of our future lie in the passion and perseverance of those who cultivate it.
Thank you Chef Linh!!
https://www.dandelionforestfarm.com/
Thank you to our listeners!!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Chef James (00:14):
Hey everyone, welcome to Chef Sense.
I'm your host, Chef Massey, Igotta do a real quick podcast.
Shout out, look for a newpodcast.
We're doing pretty well, but Ihave to be honest, you know, as
a chef I'm a perfectionist.
I want to do above average, soI'm going to keep jamming and
getting better.
Thank you all for continuing toplug in and listen to these
(00:37):
episodes, but if you can pleaseshare, like rate or review
anything and everything that youcan to spread the good word, I
greatly appreciate it.
And let's get into the episodeOn the podcast we have chef
founder scientist Linh Aven.
That's everything, isn't itLinh, who is just so awesome.
(00:58):
Thank you for being on.
Chef Linh (01:00):
Yeah, it's really great to be here.
Chef James (01:02):
You know, I guess for everybody, so you guys all
know where this is kind ofcoming from.
Lynn and I started a few monthsback, got pulled into this
decent size project together asconsulting chefs and actually
Chef Tom Todesco was the otherone and let me tell you guys, if
they couldn't pull togetherlike an amazing, trio of three
(01:24):
people that are moreentertaining, more talented and
just vibe with each other.
We had stepped into this amazingproject with a very cool multi
chain restaurant concept.
We stepped right into this andevaluated everything and I just
had such a good time with you.
Chef Linh (01:40):
Yeah, it was the dream team.
We got so much done so fast.
Chef James (01:44):
You know, and I don't even know how we did it
either, because, so to explainto you guys, they kind of
brought us into their home ortheir base flagship store.
Chef Linh (01:51):
So you know we go in there.
You know we're ready to go.
Chef James (01:53):
I mean we're all seasoned veterans, right?
I mean you know we're going toget it done.
We love what we do, we'repassionate and you know, what's
really cool is that, with themany years of service and a
variety of different aspectsthat the three of us have behind
us, the ego played no part init, and I think that's so
important and I think that'sjust what I really.
(02:13):
You know, we fed off of it andjust we just pushed ahead
because there's no roadblocks,you know.
Chef Linh (02:20):
Yeah, it's just pure collaboration.
Chef James (02:22):
when you check your ego at the door, Right, right,
and you know that's good advicefor all of us and, stepping into
that again, really cool concept.
But remember, when we walkedinto the kitchen, we were like
how are we going to do this?
Because it was packed and theteam was like cranking and so we
, like went into the conferenceroom and put our stuff down.
I'm like, all right, here's ourtest kitchen conference room,
(02:43):
Cool.
So so we got in there and wemade it happen.
Chef Linh (02:49):
Yeah, it was great, it was really wonderful meeting
both of you guys, and evenoutside of it, I mean after the
project we would still, you know, catch up with each other and
explain what we're cooking forThanksgiving.
Chef James (03:03):
Yeah, that was so cool.
Yeah, I mean, tom, was he just,you know, threw that out there
and but no, you know, I think tothe way you operate, it's like
you just see it, as we workthrough it, we fit into our
spots.
I just really appreciated youon how talented you are, but
also the fact of like yourorganization structure and just
(03:24):
you were such a huge asset tothat.
You know so anyways, but yeah,let's get into your beginning.
Where did this all come from?
Your passion?
Chef Linh (03:32):
Oh, it's a long.
It's been a long and windyjourney, but it's one that it
kind of unfolded organically.
So I grew up in California, Igo to school in Pacific
Northwest and then I came toBoston.
I got my PhD in molecularmedicine.
Chef James (03:53):
Yeah, that was, that's.
Amazing.
Chef Linh (03:55):
I was good student, so I just took it as far as I
could, but I didn't really thinkabout what I wanted to do
professionally after that and itwas.
It was about time to be inscience.
It was the 2009 recession lab.
Chef James (04:07):
Yep.
Chef Linh (04:09):
So I I ended up jumping paths.
I realized that all along I hadbeen really interested in food,
but I hadn't pursued itprofessionally.
So I started volunteering at aFrench bakery, cafe Madeleine,
and that just turned into a fulltime opportunity to make from
(04:30):
scratch croissants.
You know baker's hours, 4am,yeah yeah.
So hauling 50 pound bags offlour up and down the stairs.
It was great.
But I realized I wasn'tpassionate about history.
I just wanted to make normalfood for normal people.
(04:51):
So I joined Be Good as fastcasual restaurant chain.
At the time they had 78 unitsnationwide and I was going to be
the assistant to their chef whohelped start it.
And like literally the next dayI became their executive chef
(05:12):
because the main chef left foranother opportunity and I just
jumped in and figured out.
I was like, okay, let's figureout what fast casual means.
And you know what we could dohere.
And at Be Good they were reallytrying to, you know, be a
(05:32):
better version of fast casualhealthier food, a little bit
more from scratch, bettersourcing.
They had their own farm on oneof the harbor islands and so I
became really close with the BeGood farmer, casey Ballin, and
we.
We visited a lot of farms tryingto figure out contract growing
(05:56):
and just learning the state ofour food systems of today, that,
even though we could work withlocal farms, somehow it was
cheaper and easier to get aheadof Romain from California
shipped all the way to the EastCoast.
So my head was starting tothink about why this was and
(06:17):
what we've done about it.
We started talking aboutregenerative agriculture, and
why aren't more farmerspracticing these techniques that
seem like this is the wayforward?
Yeah, and then COVID hit.
And so March of 2020, Iremember Casey called me and
(06:39):
said hey, you know all thesethings we've been talking about
regenerative agriculture andfarming.
Well, why don't we start a farmtogether?
And I don't have anything elseto do?
So I was like, oh, let's do it.
Chef James (06:51):
Right.
Chef Linh (06:51):
Start a farm.
Chef James (06:53):
Wow, I mean, that's amazing.
Chef Linh (06:55):
Yeah.
Chef James (06:57):
Okay, so.
So how did that I mean?
Obviously you're here, so.
Chef Linh (07:02):
Yeah, so we started the quest for land, which in the
Northeast is pretty difficult.
Okay, and with the COVIDhousing bubble, we searched and
search.
We ended up in a burgeoningfarm cooperative in New
Hampshire on the Seat Coast.
(07:23):
So it was the idea was severalfarmers together to share
research and we started thequest for land which is a farm,
that we're going to be workingtogether to share resources,
which seemed like a great idea.
But since we, we really we'rethinking about if we were going
to do a farm, what kind of farmdid we want to be?
And we really wanted to figureout the things that just
naturally grew.
Well in our area, like you know, our farms are called the
(07:50):
herbicides, and herbicides onthe crops, things that just
naturally grew, all likedandelions.
You know our farm is nameddandelion forest farm.
Right, if we could farmdandelions, that would be
amazing, so easy.
Chef James (08:03):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, you can do some wine, forsure, you know.
Chef Linh (08:06):
Yeah, and you know the greens for salad for tea.
So we were really focused onedible perennial plants as kind
of the focus of the farm.
But that means we would need,you know, really long term
tenure.
For many reasons this farmcooperative fell through but
(08:28):
thankfully we were able to findland in Nottingham, new
Hampshire, through a land trust,the Southeast Land Trust, so
this is preserved forever farmland and we're going to get it
more affordably for that.
And now we're on 30 acres, butsix acres of old meadow that
(08:48):
used to just be haid and 200chestnut trees in the ground.
We have an acre of annualvegetables, medicinal herbs.
We have lair hens, ducks andfarm to table dinner series
called the farmers table.
Chef James (09:04):
Awesome.
So are you now for your season?
When does it actually?
When do your dinners actuallystart and run through?
Chef Linh (09:11):
Yeah, so the dinners are June through October because
they're outside, so we want tomake sure the weather is warm
enough.
Chef James (09:20):
Yeah, there's a variety of things that you guys
did.
I see you.
So, you guys have a pauseEventually.
Chef Linh (09:27):
Yes, a lot of the perennials are still in the
nursery stage.
I've been trying to source alot of seed and grow them out
myself, and so we've been doingannuals until then.
So we can you know, there's alot of time to grow a lot of
food until the chestnuts aremuch bigger.
Right now they're kind of likesmall shrubs.
(09:48):
So we can, we can grow food inbetween the chestnuts until they
get bigger.
And then the long term plan isthat, as all these edible
perennial crops are mature, thenwe will do less annuals and
then maybe we'll have somegrazing animals like sheep to
just take care of the pasture.
Chef James (10:06):
Wow, wow, that's so amazing, and chestnuts are so,
so tasty.
Chef Linh (10:13):
They are.
I think a lot of Americansdon't know.
It's kind of skipped ageneration.
Chef James (10:19):
Oh yeah.
Chef Linh (10:20):
So they just know it from you.
Know the Christmas song, butreally wonderful food, and it's
a starch than a nut.
Chef James (10:29):
So, it could be considered like tree corn that
falls, that's so funny you saythat you know, because it kind
of reminds you of that starchyhominy Mm, hmm, that kernel and
you know, and that's anothergood point too, and I think
maybe what and this is just methrowing out a thought, because
you said that but Maybe thatblight that we dealt with in the
(10:52):
country with our Americanchestnuts, especially here in
New England, but there was alike a blight that ran through.
Chef Linh (10:59):
Yeah, it was about Like a hundred years ago.
Chef James (11:02):
Was it okay.
Chef Linh (11:03):
Yeah, I have a lot of American chestnuts, so now
there's been a resurgence.
By mixing up the geneticsAmerican, chinese, japanese,
korean we can find more blightresistant varieties, and there
are a number of farms in theMidwest and upstate New York
that are growing chestnuts.
(11:23):
Again, there is a demand for it.
It also is a wonderfulgluten-free flour.
Chef James (11:28):
Yeah, so easy to make a.
Pasta right, oh, that's so cooland I like actually candy in
those and like slow cooking themin a syrup.
That's kind of typical, but Iknow that those are pretty
popular and still like used overin Italy.
Yes yeah, that's kind of a bigdeal for them.
It was like a street vendorfood for the longest time.
Chef Linh (11:50):
Yeah, actually when, when I was in Italy for our
honeymoon, it was in the falland I remember seeing a street
vendor.
He was just picking chestnutsoff the ground because they were
calling community trees androasting them, selling them.
Yeah, I didn't realize the paththat I was on at that time, but
looking back, you know, I wishwe had all these chestnut trees,
you know mature.
Chef James (12:12):
But yeah, what?
There's also other things.
I mean, you've got your, you'redoing some Fermentation and
stuff too.
Is that code yeah?
Chef Linh (12:20):
another part of of the farm is just trying to keep
an eye on Food waste and reallyit's more about respecting the
plants and the harvest, soreally making sure we're using
up every last bit.
So I already know there will betimes where we are left with
surplus and I want to beprepared when that happens.
(12:40):
I can then put on my chef's hatand figure out some way of
Preserving the harvest.
So I've been playing aroundwith making vinegars Me so's oh,
wow lacto fermentation.
Soy sauce usinings.
Chef James (12:56):
That's so cool, because actually I'm sure you've
heard of them South River, miso, mm-hmm.
They're, they're excellent andthey really do it the old-school
way too.
I mean, it's that's so cool,you're doing that too.
Chef Linh (13:09):
Yeah, and actually well, koji Khan, just happened,
the Koji conference.
That's so many applicationswith Koji, and Koji can unlock
just so many new flavors.
Chef James (13:20):
Oh yeah.
Chef Linh (13:21):
So I've been.
I've been trying to keep myselfreally focused on things that I
can grow here, so growing Kojion corn that I can grow Instead
of rice or soybeans, and then,like you know, one of the Noma
ferments was using like a wholesquash, and so what kind of Miso
(13:44):
adaptation can I do with thingsthat I can grow here on our?
Chef James (13:48):
Yeah, that's so cool .
You know it's funny too.
I actually have a bag of Kojiup in my pantry area.
So what is that called shieldKoji and it's like this salted,
like mommy.
I mean you take that and youdon't need a lot of it, but like
rubbing meats down before theygo on the grill Mind blowing.
Chef Linh (14:09):
Yeah, absolutely delicious and it makes it so
easy.
It really just unlocks forchefs and for home cooks.
When you have a pantry full ofinteresting ingredients, your
job's just so much easier.
Chef James (14:22):
Yeah, oh yeah, absolutely Firesider.
You think you'll ever get tofireside, or are you probably
already doing it?
Chef Linh (14:28):
Oh yeah, we already have lots.
Yeah, I really.
I prefer to use it as avinaigrette most, first and
foremost, rather than drinkingit straight.
I think it tastes great.
Chef James (14:39):
Oh, it's, it is.
You know, do a shot glass ofthat.
Well, maybe that's too much,but maybe, maybe a tablespoon.
But um and syrups.
You had a.
Was that a pine syrup?
Chef Linh (14:49):
Yeah, so in Italy the traditional Pine syrup is from
the Mugol pine.
They call it Mugolio, where youpack unripe baby pine cones
into sugar and then the sugardraws moisture out from it.
It's kind of like the KoreanChiang Okay, and so we can do
that with basically any anyedible pine here, you know,
(15:12):
except the you family, and it islike a really interesting
flavor.
I think it's delicious.
It's like pine and citrus notes, and then you just boil that
down into a thick syrup.
It's one of my favoriteproducts, for sure that and you
know, you can make a tea withthe shag bar, kickery bar.
(15:32):
Okay, yeah roast it, make a teaand then add sugar and boil that
down and it's like a nicelittle nutty flavor.
Yeah, a different way of makingsyrup than just tapping.
Chef James (15:42):
Okay, and then looking at like your area I mean
30 acres Do you see any likemushrooms popping up at all?
You?
Chef Linh (15:49):
know I don't see that many mushrooms.
Okay someday I will beinoculating some shiitake logs
and grind some lion's mane andreishi.
You know it's on the list.
Chef James (16:04):
Yeah, that's so cool over here in the Berkshire is
like for us.
I just, spring is coming, it'slike get ready for ramps and you
know, then fiddle heads at somepoint, and so you know, morels
are obviously in May, but butgetting out and foraging, I love
grabbing hold of thesemushrooms.
I found a couple honey holesfor hedgehogs, which was, which
(16:28):
was pretty cool, but my itake isjust one of my favorites.
Mm-hmm but yeah, even thechicken of the woods is a nice
one.
I actually did that one time Inthe oven and like a hotel pan
and did some veg stock and herbsand onions and and garlic and
just took that chicken of thewoods, that huge orange coral,
(16:52):
and Like basted it at a low tempfor like two or three hours and
when someone would order it Iwould kind of pull it out, like
you know, like a big piece oflike prime flip and then I did
this plate with it, which waspretty cool.
But I know I love the foragingand I love, you know, the
(17:12):
connection with the land andthat's where it connects me From
, not just my you know myAnglo-American farming side of
my family, but also my nativeside of my family, right of
being where my feet are andpulling things from the land.
But also, obviously you want toknow what you're grabbing and
so I build that foundation.
(17:33):
But that's I don't know.
It's just all the things thatyou know you're doing and that
you're sharing about is just tome it's really powerful and it
sounds like you know thatinspiration and correct me if I
wrong, but it seems like it inthese other opportunities prior
to this and then stepping intothis opportunity to have a voice
in Combating, you know, our bigag system that we have here in
(17:56):
the US and some of ourprogramming to do this on your
farm must be A pretty amazingfeeling, right.
Chef Linh (18:03):
It is.
Sometimes it feels a bitoverwhelming To kind of take on
the world's problems and solveit and my, my little piece of
life here, yeah, but it's alsoan incredible opportunity.
I think of this as my livinglab to just try out a bunch of
things, figure out the practicesthat work and don't work here.
(18:25):
I think it's a reallyinteresting time to be in food.
We can pick and choose from somany global regions, but we can
also choose to pick fromdifferent traditions across time
and space.
Chef James (18:39):
Yeah.
Chef Linh (18:41):
And so we can bring back some of these ancient
practices and merge it with ourmodern ones and just figure out
what's going to work best for us, right, yeah, I mean, I think
with the foraging it's reallybecause we have access to all
these global flavors.
Sometimes it's really nice tofigure out what your little
(19:01):
piece of land tastes like.
And to be really payingattention to that specific
flavor, to be really so in tunewith the seasons, not just
spring, summer, fall, winter,but a very much a narrow window
on foraging.
You really have to be checkingin with those plants and looking
around.
Chef James (19:21):
Yeah.
Chef Linh (19:22):
Make sure you catch those windows.
Chef James (19:24):
Well, and it's funny too, like the point you're
bringing up, I mean, and that'sfarming, you know, it's kind of
a risky business and kind ofletting the land tell you what
it's doing.
And mushrooms are so funny likethat because one year you could
have morels pop up and get asmall flush and then they don't
(19:46):
come back for three years.
So it's very funny like that.
I find it interesting because Ithink even our settlers or our
families during the time inindigenous people, that was all
information that was passed down.
You know, as you were raised onyour land and in the area, I
mean you knew which spots tocheck when, and that's again, I
(20:10):
think it really goes into themindfulness existence of like
and again, that's just myopinion but like not being so
distracted that I actuallyspiritually get connected to the
amazing people around me thatinspire me, but also the land
that connects you.
So that's really cool whenyou're talking about, like, your
(20:31):
agroforestry, that you do thereand you're doing your, what is
that?
The zero till, I mean all ofthis work that you're doing.
Can you describe how you'replanting and how you actually
operate on your farm?
Chef Linh (20:42):
Yeah, we're exploring a lot of practices that
ultimately, are trying to createmore of a closed loop ecology
on this, on our farm, practicesthat are going to benefit soil
health.
I really think that, you know,a healthy soil is healthy plants
, which is easier to care forand will benefit us, since we
(21:03):
are eating those plants.
And so, you know, by nottilling the soil ever, all of
our beds were created with ourhands, with we just suppress the
grass with cardboard to smotherit out, and there was no
tilling.
You don't have any heavymachinery here and that was
intentional.
You know, there's all sorts ofcommunities in the soil, all
(21:26):
these different organisms.
They built their littlevillages and I don't want to
just come in and destroy them.
I want to support them.
So you know, using compost thatwe make, making compost tea and
spraying foliar feeds reallyjust interplant a lot of
interplanting of crops, sorarely do we see just one thing
(21:49):
in a row together.
I think you know prioritizingdiversity.
This year I'm only growing openpollinated varieties so that we
can start working towards seedsaving.
There's a lot of hybrid seedsout there that the control is
not in your hands anymore.
You can plant those out, butthen you won't have those same
flavors coming back.
(22:09):
So I think there's a lot ofinteresting work in like natural
genetic selection that we canbe doing and, yeah, just kind of
trying to work with what we'vebeen given.
We're not doing any sprays likeno pesticides, no herbicides,
no fungicides.
We could do it and sometimesthey could work, but I don't
(22:31):
think we can understand what'sreally going on in our soils if
we keep spraying these.
It's kind of like puttingantibiotics globally on our land
.
We need to kind of let some ofthe diseases build up in order
for things to come back intobalance.
Chef James (22:48):
Wow, that's really cool.
Okay, I've said before too withother farmers that you know my
farming family goes, you know,way back to multi generations in
Northern California.
We had 400 acres up there thatmy great-grandfather founded
after he had gotten back andkind of established himself
(23:10):
after World War I you know, andit just kind of took off.
You know, and you know myexperience in growing up with
all that.
I've seen the effects on theland.
You know the effects on myfamily members that you know due
to, you know, some of theseprocesses that have been handed
(23:30):
to our farmers way back thenwith not, you know,
understanding a correctiveaction but not really
understanding the long-termeffect.
And it's pretty eye-opening.
And I think the special thingis that today we're farming as
going in many of our local areasin New England and our New
(23:53):
England farmers and I know ourother farmers across the country
are working on that too.
But there's just becoming abetter voice for our future of
farming, even though we're kindof like combating our large
corporate ag system right now.
I think that a lot of the workthat you're doing I mean it's
(24:13):
all the foundational work forhealthy longevity.
Chef Linh (24:17):
Absolutely.
I mean the food we put in ourbody.
That is medicine.
It's important to be feedingourselves nutrient-dense foods,
and we're also designed thatthose nutrient-dense foods will
taste better to us if we're likereally paying attention to what
our bodies are telling us wewant, right?
(24:39):
Yeah, so it's the 100thanniversary of Biodynamics, a
practice brought on by RudolfSteiner, and they were talking,
you know, 100 years ago, aboutall these farmers coming
together and they're like, whatdo we do?
It's the beginning of chemicalfertilizers, tractors.
Chef James (25:02):
Yeah.
Chef Linh (25:02):
How do we farm?
And I just think it's so funnywe're asking the same questions.
What do we do in the face ofchemical fertilizers and
machinery and the bigger systemsthat be?
But I think now people arepaying more attention.
I think it's more normal to behaving these discussions and I
(25:26):
think that's incredibly helpful.
You know, out of COVID, All CSAsales, farm sales went through
the roof.
Chef James (25:33):
Unbelievable.
I was so excited, I mean thatwas so amazing for so many farms
, wow.
And they went from like smallfarm stores to like they had to
remodel, they had to expandtheir selections.
That was so cool, you know.
And talking to some of ourfarmers for two they've kind of
admitted that you know there wasa massive wave during COVID,
(25:54):
like you said, but now it's kindof like dropped a little bit.
So how do you keep that?
You know, momentum, becausewe're, you know, by going to our
local farms.
I mean people don't realize that, like you had mentioned before,
you know you've got this threepack of romaine heart that comes
from I don't know SanBernardino or what have you, in
(26:17):
Bakersfield or you know, andcomes all the way across the
United States.
And nutritionally, you knowI've said it before, but the
longer it sets, the weaker itgets.
And to get these products withthe integrity that you all
provide is so substantial, notto mention your shelf life, the
(26:38):
quality in which you're gettingfrom that producer product.
Even foraging for a mushroom, Imean you can go get one, you
know, like a myotake, out of thestore and then go forage one
and do it side by side.
It's just unreal.
Chef Linh (26:53):
Right, but I think that the convenience factor is
is really strong.
Unfortunately, yeah, I thinkthere's a lot going on with
consumers.
Money's a little tight rightnow and if it's not just right
there in the grocery store at anappropriate price, it's hard
for people.
(27:14):
It's not impossible.
I think there probably arelocal farms around you just got
to go look for them.
But what you're going to getit's going to look a little bit
different.
But I think that's okay.
In our CSA I tell people allthe time when you get a CSA from
Dandelion Forest Farm productsare going to look really
(27:35):
different.
I love different colors anddifferent flavors and I also
every week tell our sharemembers this is what I would do
with your crop share, to put ittogether to make the most use of
everything.
But if we're used to onlyromaine hearts, do people know
what to do with the wholeromaine lettuce?
Chef James (27:56):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
I mean it's peel it down andthen throw it out.
Chef Linh (28:02):
Or lettuce that's not in a plastic bin, that's triple
washed in baby greens.
Chef James (28:07):
Right, exactly, and I think that's I don't know.
I think people now that they'rerealizing because some of these
, these Netflix documentariesare coming out and they're
really showing some of thesethat are, for example, Michael
Pollan.
Really eye-opening to reallythe underbelly of what we're
dealing with.
And again it's being educated.
(28:30):
I mean, do you guys, did I seeyou do workshops or things like
that too?
Chef Linh (28:36):
by chance.
Yeah, we do workshops on thefarm.
Yeah, okay.
Chef James (28:40):
And that's cool.
What kind of stuff.
Chef Linh (28:42):
Do you do with that?
So we've done, we've done asheet mulching workshop.
We've been thinking about doingone on like the three sisters
growing.
Chef James (28:52):
Oh, very cool.
Chef Linh (28:53):
The Abenaki do seven sisters.
Chef James (28:55):
Yep.
Chef Linh (28:56):
Maybe doing someone like seed saving.
Okay, and I think we'll justget people to grow something.
Grow anything.
Even if you're in an apartment,put a pot of basil in your
window, sill Right.
Chef James (29:08):
Right, it's a starter.
Chef Linh (29:09):
Reconnecting in a tiny symbolic level Right Is a
start.
Chef James (29:14):
It is, yeah, absolutely.
Well.
It's funny too because likethat I have done those.
The three sisters garden andthat man, they take off.
I had like 21 of them and Ieven grew one of the squash I
did was a Hopi, pale Gray andthey're huge.
I mean, it took, it went fromlike it's the garden patch all
(29:37):
the way across my lawn, like itwas so happy.
It's like I'm here, you know,of course I have to go out and
sage and I do my wholecommunication with them, because
they're, you know, they're aliving organism, right, I mean,
I think, whether it's a plant oranything, good energy feed you,
you know.
But that's pretty cool thatyou're doing that as well.
(29:59):
Obviously, it's an obviousquestion, but everything that
you grow on your farm, you'redoing like six courses and
you're or multi-courses.
Chef Linh (30:09):
Yeah, so it's myself and my chef partner, elizabeth
Hasket.
We do a six course family styledinner for farmers' table.
Chef James (30:20):
Okay.
Chef Linh (30:21):
And it's 40 people and it's been a really wonderful
way to showcase everything.
We've been talking aboutProducts that we've foraged,
things that we've made, justproduce that we're growing here,
having these conversations,showing people these are the
plants that your food is comingfrom.
You can eat.
You can eat dandelions and doxseed.
(30:43):
You know these edible plantsare all around you right now.
And then showing them not onlywhat it is, but then making them
eat it as well, reallyreinforce the point.
Chef James (30:56):
And it's really enlightening, isn't it?
I mean, are there anything?
Is there anything that youplant wise, that you have done
that?
You're like, I didn't expect itto do what it did and taste,
and I was really surprised by it.
Chef Linh (31:11):
So all of last season I did a cornbread for the table
and it's a really adaptablerecipe.
I've been playing around withalternative flowers and so I
highlighted the dox seed.
You know, everyone's got curlydock growing in their yard and
it's really noticeable when thatbrown flower stock comes off.
(31:31):
So we just pulled off all theshaft and ground it and added it
to the cornbread and it wasjust a really symbolic way of
eating the weeds and trying notto use, you know, not to view
them as weeds, yeah, and so thatkind of set the tone for the
rest of the dinners.
Chef James (31:51):
Wow, that's so cool.
I mean, and you're located.
Do you wanna let New Hampshire?
What region or locationspecifically are you?
Chef Linh (31:59):
We're in the Seacoast , so kind of in between
Portsmouth and Manchester.
Chef James (32:02):
Okay, there we go.
Yeah, I need to.
I should come do a dinnersometime.
Chef Linh (32:07):
That would be great.
Chef James (32:08):
That'd be so cool.
I mean, you've got your CSAs.
You're rolling through thatwhen it comes to getting the
help that you need.
How are you all doing that?
I mean, that's farm labor.
Chef Linh (32:20):
Yeah Well, I know how much time I have in a day, so
the majority of it is me rightnow.
I'm hoping to have a collegeintern this summer.
Chef James (32:32):
So, cool.
Chef Linh (32:34):
We have a couple of people helping with the dinners
and then my husband helps outwith some of the infrastructure
projects.
But it's a lot and I have allthese ideas and other projects I
wanna do, but I'm trying totake it one step at a time,
Really planning things out,getting systems figured out so
(32:55):
we could be a little moreefficient.
Chef James (32:57):
Right, which is so cool, wow.
Well, looking at like howyou're planning things and
stages like your ultimate dream,from what in the amazing work
you're doing now, where do youhope to see things go for you
with this?
Chef Linh (33:12):
Yeah, so I live here, but I also live 20 years from
now.
Chef James (33:20):
I worked with you for a few days, so I picked up
on it.
Chef Linh (33:24):
It's just figuring out how to get there, but I've
been visiting a time where wehave fruit from June through
November and it's almost alledible perennials.
So I'm just doing a lot ofpruning in the winter,
harvesting, preserving in thesummer, doing the dinners and
(33:45):
then taking a break in thewinter.
So right now it's kind of alittle bit of everything, but
hopefully focusing it more andthen out of the perennial crops
that we're growing to developmore of a nursery to encourage
other folks to be growing theseplants also.
Chef James (34:00):
Oh wow.
So would you actually do alittle pot, like little grower
packs sprouts for people?
Chef Linh (34:06):
Yeah, so, and we actually have extra chestnuts
right now that we're sellingchestnuts oh, really Hazelnuts,
yeah, ooh, hazelnuts, mm-hmm.
Chef James (34:15):
That's awesome.
Chef Linh (34:16):
You just have to beat the squirrels.
Chef James (34:19):
Well, that's the same with the acorns, isn't it?
Chef Linh (34:22):
Yes, yes, but usually I think with there's just so
many acorns in a mast year, youcan keep up with them a little
bit more than the hazelnuts.
Chef James (34:31):
Okay, okay.
Chef Linh (34:32):
Now, how do you?
Now?
You do that too.
Chef James (34:34):
Now that's a soaking and a leaching process with the
acorns that's.
Can you describe that process?
Chef Linh (34:40):
That's kind of how to make it, yeah, so we just had a
really good season last year.
So you got to pick all theacorns, give them a float test,
you keep all the sinkers, thenjust let them dry and they're
good for years in the shell.
So when you need them.
You can crack them out the daybuilt nutcracker is really great
or you can get a towel and ahammer, take all the nut meats
(35:03):
out, grind them up and just Iuse the cold soap method so you
just remove the tannins, so youjust soak it in water.
The water's gonna turn tan,okay, and you just give it
several changes till it doesn'ttaste bitter, and then you can
dry them and grind them up touse this flour.
Chef James (35:22):
That's so cool and have you done like muffins or?
Chef Linh (35:27):
Yeah, it's also like a really nice alternative flour
and I think with the rise ofgluten-free baking there's so
many good recipes out there andyou can just swap them in Really
good pancakes crepes.
They go really well in thatcornbread also.
Chef James (35:42):
Right.
Well, and again, it is aprocess, but you get so much out
of it from doing that andlearning it.
I know we were sharing before.
Earlier I was over therereducing maple sap for maple
syrup, and one thing that I'vealways appreciated is that
getting the opportunity to stepin someone else's shoes.
(36:03):
To me, a chef, we'restorytellers and it's trying to
do my best by you, from what youprovide, or us collabing on
something, that we're in thiscoexistent journey together,
that what goes on the platereally has power behind it.
That's 100% real and I thinkthat's the beauty of it and I
(36:27):
really thrive off of that.
Chef Linh (36:29):
Exactly and, I think, tying it back to if you just
buy some bagged romaine heartsin the grocery store, I'm not
sure you want to tell that story.
There is a story there, butbeing a little bit more aware of
the process and figuring out,where did our food come from?
Where did those seeds come from?
Who's been saving these seedsall this time?
How do they get to be here?
(36:50):
How does maple happen from atree?
It gives you a new perspectiveon all of the food that we
consume on a daily basis.
Chef James (37:00):
Right, and my other question I actually had down in
just your thoughts.
But as we see our farmerscontinuing to age out, there is
a level of a gap that isstarting to happen.
And I'm a pretty logical person.
But as I'm looking at it I'mthinking, okay, maybe it's
(37:21):
because of technology and theway things in life and societal
shifts.
I don't want to say we'vebecome more comfortable, but
we've been a little dependent onthings.
When you go into a no-till farmlike yours, I mean when you're
done with a 10 hour, 12 hour aday, I wouldn't even know what
to say.
I mean, there's like, is thereany?
(37:43):
There's a lot of stretchinginvolved, I'm sure, but there's
quite a challenge with trying toget our young farmers because
they are inspired and they arewonderful.
But how do we protect that andmove it forward?
I mean, what are your thoughtson that?
Chef Linh (38:02):
Absolutely.
It is definitely a challenge.
The good news is I've met andcontinued to meet so many
impassioned young people whowant to work the land.
They see that this is a wayforward for everyone.
The biggest challenges rightnow, I think, are the cost of
(38:23):
land and the cost of housing andthe cost of everything else,
but yet our food prices arecontinually artificially
repressed, so the economics ofit make it really really tough
these days.
I don't have a silver bulletanswer.
I think people have to be moreclever than ever, exploring more
(38:45):
of these cooperative typemodels to do some sort of
equipment sharing or laborsharing.
But I think on a smaller level,every dollar matters.
So when we vote with ourdollars and we keep voting for
smaller, more community-scaledfoods, that opens up a bigger
(39:08):
market for these younger farmersto get a foot in the door and
figure out a model that worksfor them.
Chef James (39:14):
Right and that you know it's funny and you
mentioned kind of that.
Here they have the BerkshireMobile Farmers Market, which is
really cool.
I actually had them on thepodcast but Berkshire Grown
actually is the big piece tothat.
But they have gotten a grant tostart this project where they
(39:36):
can do these mobile farmermarkets and local farms could
send their product or meet themat these locations where people
had food insecurity could get it.
And it's not like a big stretchof a farmer's market, it's a
small, you know I don't want tosay a 10 by 10 with some tables,
(39:59):
but it is a smaller version ofit.
And they also had a buyingprogram that was very
respectfully discreet to peoplethat can or cannot afford it and
how much they can afford to doprotecting their privacy on that
.
But that was really cool to seethat to start to happen.
Chef Linh (40:19):
Yeah, that sounds fantastic, I think anyway we can
be again using everything thatis grown.
If we can, as chefs, becreating ways or programs that
you know to let farmers know hey, if you have B grade tomatoes
it doesn't matter, because we'regoing to cook them up anyway.
(40:40):
So if they don't look perfect,you know I'll take them to
create that ahead of time, to beestablishing those
relationships.
So all of those foods gosomewhere that's not just to
compost.
Chef James (40:53):
Right, exactly, that's actually a good idea for
even possibly our school foodsystems as well.
You know those seconds and it'sfunny.
I remember reading a while backand I could be wrong, but I
thought there was something towhen these vegetables or this
produce has, you know, nothorrible blemishes, but they
have some blemishes and somedings, some scarring, that their
(41:18):
nutritional value is actually alittle bit higher or stronger,
is that?
Chef Linh (41:23):
yeah, I heard that Okay yeah.
I think like a lot of producethat's grown in like the Andes,
because the altitude is so high,it stresses the plants out more
and so the plants have to putmore nutrients and defenses up
to support themselves, whichthen strengthens us.
Or when a plant is gettingeaten by something it's trying
(41:47):
to defend, and so it's actuallybetter for us.
And probably the reason why alot of grape farmers they're not
irrigating or fertilizing, theywant stressed plants because
that's more flavor.
Chef James (42:01):
Right, okay, well, thank you for confirming that
this is just amazing.
The wealth of knowledge thatyou have, I mean your commitment
to you know what you're doing.
It really is inspiring.
I mean I'm really grateful thatyou know we've got a chance to
you know, to meet, work togetherand where I could learn more
about what you're doing and whatyou provide, because I mean,
(42:23):
you're on it, you know, in somany ways.
Chef Linh (42:27):
So yeah, well, I mean , I feel like we are.
We're certainly on a learningjourney.
We certainly don't haveanything figured out.
It's nice to have the time andspace to to try a bunch of stuff
and share this knowledge.
In.
As much as sometimes I hatesocial media, it's also a
wonderful place to connect withfolks and to put this knowledge
(42:50):
out there.
So it's just wonderful to beable to have normalized
conversations about our biggersystems and our smaller food
systems.
Chef James (42:59):
Well, I know, and that's where I'm so grateful for
today.
So where can people just go toyour website and are your
tickets for your dinners forsale there?
Chef Linh (43:09):
Yeah, so we're going to be really seeing our tickets
end of March.
If you sign up on ournewsletter from our website,
we'll let our newsletter folkshave first crack at this ticket.
And we're accepting CSA sharesright now for those areas.
And yeah, folks want to buychestnut trees.
We've got seedlings.
Chef James (43:30):
I actually think I need to grab a couple of those.
Chef Linh (43:33):
That would be great.
Chef James (43:34):
You know, you never know, but, like, maybe truffle
farming could be in your future,well cool.
So thank you, chef Linh, foryour time.
This has been awesome.
It's so good to see you again.
Chef Linh (43:46):
Yeah, this was so great.
We should definitely be doingthis more often.
Chef James (43:50):
Thank you, I can't wait, take care.
Yeah, all right, everyone, thatis a wrap.
You can check us out if youlike that.
Subscribe Also the InstagramChef Massey.
Let's keep it simple, chefMasseycom.
Have a good one.
Bye for now.
Hey everyone, welcome to Chef Sense.
I'm your host, Chef Massey, Igotta do a real quick podcast.
Shout out, look for a newpodcast.
We're doing pretty well, but Ihave to be honest, you know, as
a chef I'm a perfectionist.
I want to do above average, soI'm going to keep jamming and
getting better.
Thank you all for continuing toplug in and listen to these
(00:37):
episodes, but if you can pleaseshare, like rate or review
anything and everything that youcan to spread the good word, I
greatly appreciate it.
And let's get into the episodeOn the podcast we have chef
founder scientist Linh Aven.
That's everything, isn't itLinh, who is just so awesome.
(00:58):
Thank you for being on.
Chef Linh (01:00):
Yeah, it's really great to be here.
Chef James (01:02):
You know, I guess for everybody, so you guys all
know where this is kind ofcoming from.
Lynn and I started a few monthsback, got pulled into this
decent size project together asconsulting chefs and actually
Chef Tom Todesco was the otherone and let me tell you guys, if
they couldn't pull togetherlike an amazing, trio of three
(01:24):
people that are moreentertaining, more talented and
just vibe with each other.
We had stepped into this amazingproject with a very cool multi
chain restaurant concept.
We stepped right into this andevaluated everything and I just
had such a good time with you.
Chef Linh (01:40):
Yeah, it was the dream team.
We got so much done so fast.
Chef James (01:44):
You know, and I don't even know how we did it
either, because, so to explainto you guys, they kind of
brought us into their home ortheir base flagship store.
Chef Linh (01:51):
So you know we go in there.
You know we're ready to go.
Chef James (01:53):
I mean we're all seasoned veterans, right?
I mean you know we're going toget it done.
We love what we do, we'repassionate and you know, what's
really cool is that, with themany years of service and a
variety of different aspectsthat the three of us have behind
us, the ego played no part init, and I think that's so
important and I think that'sjust what I really.
(02:13):
You know, we fed off of it andjust we just pushed ahead
because there's no roadblocks,you know.
Chef Linh (02:20):
Yeah, it's just pure collaboration.
Chef James (02:22):
when you check your ego at the door, Right, right,
and you know that's good advicefor all of us and, stepping into
that again, really cool concept.
But remember, when we walkedinto the kitchen, we were like
how are we going to do this?
Because it was packed and theteam was like cranking and so we
, like went into the conferenceroom and put our stuff down.
I'm like, all right, here's ourtest kitchen conference room,
(02:43):
Cool.
So so we got in there and wemade it happen.
Chef Linh (02:49):
Yeah, it was great, it was really wonderful meeting
both of you guys, and evenoutside of it, I mean after the
project we would still, you know, catch up with each other and
explain what we're cooking forThanksgiving.
Chef James (03:03):
Yeah, that was so cool.
Yeah, I mean, tom, was he just,you know, threw that out there
and but no, you know, I think tothe way you operate, it's like
you just see it, as we workthrough it, we fit into our
spots.
I just really appreciated youon how talented you are, but
also the fact of like yourorganization structure and just
(03:24):
you were such a huge asset tothat.
You know so anyways, but yeah,let's get into your beginning.
Where did this all come from?
Your passion?
Chef Linh (03:32):
Oh, it's a long.
It's been a long and windyjourney, but it's one that it
kind of unfolded organically.
So I grew up in California, Igo to school in Pacific
Northwest and then I came toBoston.
I got my PhD in molecularmedicine.
Chef James (03:53):
Yeah, that was, that's.
Amazing.
Chef Linh (03:55):
I was good student, so I just took it as far as I
could, but I didn't really thinkabout what I wanted to do
professionally after that and itwas.
It was about time to be inscience.
It was the 2009 recession lab.
Chef James (04:07):
Yep.
Chef Linh (04:09):
So I I ended up jumping paths.
I realized that all along I hadbeen really interested in food,
but I hadn't pursued itprofessionally.
So I started volunteering at aFrench bakery, cafe Madeleine,
and that just turned into a fulltime opportunity to make from
(04:30):
scratch croissants.
You know baker's hours, 4am,yeah yeah.
So hauling 50 pound bags offlour up and down the stairs.
It was great.
But I realized I wasn'tpassionate about history.
I just wanted to make normalfood for normal people.
(04:51):
So I joined Be Good as fastcasual restaurant chain.
At the time they had 78 unitsnationwide and I was going to be
the assistant to their chef whohelped start it.
And like literally the next dayI became their executive chef
(05:12):
because the main chef left foranother opportunity and I just
jumped in and figured out.
I was like, okay, let's figureout what fast casual means.
And you know what we could dohere.
And at Be Good they were reallytrying to, you know, be a
(05:32):
better version of fast casualhealthier food, a little bit
more from scratch, bettersourcing.
They had their own farm on oneof the harbor islands and so I
became really close with the BeGood farmer, casey Ballin, and
we.
We visited a lot of farms tryingto figure out contract growing
(05:56):
and just learning the state ofour food systems of today, that,
even though we could work withlocal farms, somehow it was
cheaper and easier to get aheadof Romain from California
shipped all the way to the EastCoast.
So my head was starting tothink about why this was and
(06:17):
what we've done about it.
We started talking aboutregenerative agriculture, and
why aren't more farmerspracticing these techniques that
seem like this is the wayforward?
Yeah, and then COVID hit.
And so March of 2020, Iremember Casey called me and
(06:39):
said hey, you know all thesethings we've been talking about
regenerative agriculture andfarming.
Well, why don't we start a farmtogether?
And I don't have anything elseto do?
So I was like, oh, let's do it.
Chef James (06:51):
Right.
Chef Linh (06:51):
Start a farm.
Chef James (06:53):
Wow, I mean, that's amazing.
Chef Linh (06:55):
Yeah.
Chef James (06:57):
Okay, so.
So how did that I mean?
Obviously you're here, so.
Chef Linh (07:02):
Yeah, so we started the quest for land, which in the
Northeast is pretty difficult.
Okay, and with the COVIDhousing bubble, we searched and
search.
We ended up in a burgeoningfarm cooperative in New
Hampshire on the Seat Coast.
(07:23):
So it was the idea was severalfarmers together to share
research and we started thequest for land which is a farm,
that we're going to be workingtogether to share resources,
which seemed like a great idea.
But since we, we really we'rethinking about if we were going
to do a farm, what kind of farmdid we want to be?
And we really wanted to figureout the things that just
naturally grew.
Well in our area, like you know, our farms are called the
(07:50):
herbicides, and herbicides onthe crops, things that just
naturally grew, all likedandelions.
You know our farm is nameddandelion forest farm.
Right, if we could farmdandelions, that would be
amazing, so easy.
Chef James (08:03):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, you can do some wine, forsure, you know.
Chef Linh (08:06):
Yeah, and you know the greens for salad for tea.
So we were really focused onedible perennial plants as kind
of the focus of the farm.
But that means we would need,you know, really long term
tenure.
For many reasons this farmcooperative fell through but
(08:28):
thankfully we were able to findland in Nottingham, new
Hampshire, through a land trust,the Southeast Land Trust, so
this is preserved forever farmland and we're going to get it
more affordably for that.
And now we're on 30 acres, butsix acres of old meadow that
(08:48):
used to just be haid and 200chestnut trees in the ground.
We have an acre of annualvegetables, medicinal herbs.
We have lair hens, ducks andfarm to table dinner series
called the farmers table.
Chef James (09:04):
Awesome.
So are you now for your season?
When does it actually?
When do your dinners actuallystart and run through?
Chef Linh (09:11):
Yeah, so the dinners are June through October because
they're outside, so we want tomake sure the weather is warm
enough.
Chef James (09:20):
Yeah, there's a variety of things that you guys
did.
I see you.
So, you guys have a pauseEventually.
Chef Linh (09:27):
Yes, a lot of the perennials are still in the
nursery stage.
I've been trying to source alot of seed and grow them out
myself, and so we've been doingannuals until then.
So we can you know, there's alot of time to grow a lot of
food until the chestnuts aremuch bigger.
Right now they're kind of likesmall shrubs.
(09:48):
So we can, we can grow food inbetween the chestnuts until they
get bigger.
And then the long term plan isthat, as all these edible
perennial crops are mature, thenwe will do less annuals and
then maybe we'll have somegrazing animals like sheep to
just take care of the pasture.
Chef James (10:06):
Wow, wow, that's so amazing, and chestnuts are so,
so tasty.
Chef Linh (10:13):
They are.
I think a lot of Americansdon't know.
It's kind of skipped ageneration.
Chef James (10:19):
Oh yeah.
Chef Linh (10:20):
So they just know it from you.
Know the Christmas song, butreally wonderful food, and it's
a starch than a nut.
Chef James (10:29):
So, it could be considered like tree corn that
falls, that's so funny you saythat you know, because it kind
of reminds you of that starchyhominy Mm, hmm, that kernel and
you know, and that's anothergood point too, and I think
maybe what and this is just methrowing out a thought, because
you said that but Maybe thatblight that we dealt with in the
(10:52):
country with our Americanchestnuts, especially here in
New England, but there was alike a blight that ran through.
Chef Linh (10:59):
Yeah, it was about Like a hundred years ago.
Chef James (11:02):
Was it okay.
Chef Linh (11:03):
Yeah, I have a lot of American chestnuts, so now
there's been a resurgence.
By mixing up the geneticsAmerican, chinese, japanese,
korean we can find more blightresistant varieties, and there
are a number of farms in theMidwest and upstate New York
that are growing chestnuts.
(11:23):
Again, there is a demand for it.
It also is a wonderfulgluten-free flour.
Chef James (11:28):
Yeah, so easy to make a.
Pasta right, oh, that's so cooland I like actually candy in
those and like slow cooking themin a syrup.
That's kind of typical, but Iknow that those are pretty
popular and still like used overin Italy.
Yes yeah, that's kind of a bigdeal for them.
It was like a street vendorfood for the longest time.
Chef Linh (11:50):
Yeah, actually when, when I was in Italy for our
honeymoon, it was in the falland I remember seeing a street
vendor.
He was just picking chestnutsoff the ground because they were
calling community trees androasting them, selling them.
Yeah, I didn't realize the paththat I was on at that time, but
looking back, you know, I wishwe had all these chestnut trees,
you know mature.
Chef James (12:12):
But yeah, what?
There's also other things.
I mean, you've got your, you'redoing some Fermentation and
stuff too.
Is that code yeah?
Chef Linh (12:20):
another part of of the farm is just trying to keep
an eye on Food waste and reallyit's more about respecting the
plants and the harvest, soreally making sure we're using
up every last bit.
So I already know there will betimes where we are left with
surplus and I want to beprepared when that happens.
(12:40):
I can then put on my chef's hatand figure out some way of
Preserving the harvest.
So I've been playing aroundwith making vinegars Me so's oh,
wow lacto fermentation.
Soy sauce usinings.
Chef James (12:56):
That's so cool, because actually I'm sure you've
heard of them South River, miso, mm-hmm.
They're, they're excellent andthey really do it the old-school
way too.
I mean, it's that's so cool,you're doing that too.
Chef Linh (13:09):
Yeah, and actually well, koji Khan, just happened,
the Koji conference.
That's so many applicationswith Koji, and Koji can unlock
just so many new flavors.
Chef James (13:20):
Oh yeah.
Chef Linh (13:21):
So I've been.
I've been trying to keep myselfreally focused on things that I
can grow here, so growing Kojion corn that I can grow Instead
of rice or soybeans, and then,like you know, one of the Noma
ferments was using like a wholesquash, and so what kind of Miso
(13:44):
adaptation can I do with thingsthat I can grow here on our?
Chef James (13:48):
Yeah, that's so cool .
You know it's funny too.
I actually have a bag of Kojiup in my pantry area.
So what is that called shieldKoji and it's like this salted,
like mommy.
I mean you take that and youdon't need a lot of it, but like
rubbing meats down before theygo on the grill Mind blowing.
Chef Linh (14:09):
Yeah, absolutely delicious and it makes it so
easy.
It really just unlocks forchefs and for home cooks.
When you have a pantry full ofinteresting ingredients, your
job's just so much easier.
Chef James (14:22):
Yeah, oh yeah, absolutely Firesider.
You think you'll ever get tofireside, or are you probably
already doing it?
Chef Linh (14:28):
Oh yeah, we already have lots.
Yeah, I really.
I prefer to use it as avinaigrette most, first and
foremost, rather than drinkingit straight.
I think it tastes great.
Chef James (14:39):
Oh, it's, it is.
You know, do a shot glass ofthat.
Well, maybe that's too much,but maybe, maybe a tablespoon.
But um and syrups.
You had a.
Was that a pine syrup?
Chef Linh (14:49):
Yeah, so in Italy the traditional Pine syrup is from
the Mugol pine.
They call it Mugolio, where youpack unripe baby pine cones
into sugar and then the sugardraws moisture out from it.
It's kind of like the KoreanChiang Okay, and so we can do
that with basically any anyedible pine here, you know,
(15:12):
except the you family, and it islike a really interesting
flavor.
I think it's delicious.
It's like pine and citrus notes, and then you just boil that
down into a thick syrup.
It's one of my favoriteproducts, for sure that and you
know, you can make a tea withthe shag bar, kickery bar.
(15:32):
Okay, yeah roast it, make a teaand then add sugar and boil that
down and it's like a nicelittle nutty flavor.
Yeah, a different way of makingsyrup than just tapping.
Chef James (15:42):
Okay, and then looking at like your area I mean
30 acres Do you see any likemushrooms popping up at all?
You?
Chef Linh (15:49):
know I don't see that many mushrooms.
Okay someday I will beinoculating some shiitake logs
and grind some lion's mane andreishi.
You know it's on the list.
Chef James (16:04):
Yeah, that's so cool over here in the Berkshire is
like for us.
I just, spring is coming, it'slike get ready for ramps and you
know, then fiddle heads at somepoint, and so you know, morels
are obviously in May, but butgetting out and foraging, I love
grabbing hold of thesemushrooms.
I found a couple honey holesfor hedgehogs, which was, which
(16:28):
was pretty cool, but my itake isjust one of my favorites.
Mm-hmm but yeah, even thechicken of the woods is a nice
one.
I actually did that one time Inthe oven and like a hotel pan
and did some veg stock and herbsand onions and and garlic and
just took that chicken of thewoods, that huge orange coral,
(16:52):
and Like basted it at a low tempfor like two or three hours and
when someone would order it Iwould kind of pull it out, like
you know, like a big piece oflike prime flip and then I did
this plate with it, which waspretty cool.
But I know I love the foragingand I love, you know, the
(17:12):
connection with the land andthat's where it connects me From
, not just my you know myAnglo-American farming side of
my family, but also my nativeside of my family, right of
being where my feet are andpulling things from the land.
But also, obviously you want toknow what you're grabbing and
so I build that foundation.
(17:33):
But that's I don't know.
It's just all the things thatyou know you're doing and that
you're sharing about is just tome it's really powerful and it
sounds like you know thatinspiration and correct me if I
wrong, but it seems like it inthese other opportunities prior
to this and then stepping intothis opportunity to have a voice
in Combating, you know, our bigag system that we have here in
(17:56):
the US and some of ourprogramming to do this on your
farm must be A pretty amazingfeeling, right.
Chef Linh (18:03):
It is.
Sometimes it feels a bitoverwhelming To kind of take on
the world's problems and solveit and my, my little piece of
life here, yeah, but it's alsoan incredible opportunity.
I think of this as my livinglab to just try out a bunch of
things, figure out the practicesthat work and don't work here.
(18:25):
I think it's a reallyinteresting time to be in food.
We can pick and choose from somany global regions, but we can
also choose to pick fromdifferent traditions across time
and space.
Chef James (18:39):
Yeah.
Chef Linh (18:41):
And so we can bring back some of these ancient
practices and merge it with ourmodern ones and just figure out
what's going to work best for us, right, yeah, I mean, I think
with the foraging it's reallybecause we have access to all
these global flavors.
Sometimes it's really nice tofigure out what your little
(19:01):
piece of land tastes like.
And to be really payingattention to that specific
flavor, to be really so in tunewith the seasons, not just
spring, summer, fall, winter,but a very much a narrow window
on foraging.
You really have to be checkingin with those plants and looking
around.
Chef James (19:21):
Yeah.
Chef Linh (19:22):
Make sure you catch those windows.
Chef James (19:24):
Well, and it's funny too, like the point you're
bringing up, I mean, and that'sfarming, you know, it's kind of
a risky business and kind ofletting the land tell you what
it's doing.
And mushrooms are so funny likethat because one year you could
have morels pop up and get asmall flush and then they don't
(19:46):
come back for three years.
So it's very funny like that.
I find it interesting because Ithink even our settlers or our
families during the time inindigenous people, that was all
information that was passed down.
You know, as you were raised onyour land and in the area, I
mean you knew which spots tocheck when, and that's again, I
(20:10):
think it really goes into themindfulness existence of like
and again, that's just myopinion but like not being so
distracted that I actuallyspiritually get connected to the
amazing people around me thatinspire me, but also the land
that connects you.
So that's really cool whenyou're talking about, like, your
(20:31):
agroforestry, that you do thereand you're doing your, what is
that?
The zero till, I mean all ofthis work that you're doing.
Can you describe how you'replanting and how you actually
operate on your farm?
Chef Linh (20:42):
Yeah, we're exploring a lot of practices that
ultimately, are trying to createmore of a closed loop ecology
on this, on our farm, practicesthat are going to benefit soil
health.
I really think that, you know,a healthy soil is healthy plants
, which is easier to care forand will benefit us, since we
(21:03):
are eating those plants.
And so, you know, by nottilling the soil ever, all of
our beds were created with ourhands, with we just suppress the
grass with cardboard to smotherit out, and there was no
tilling.
You don't have any heavymachinery here and that was
intentional.
You know, there's all sorts ofcommunities in the soil, all
(21:26):
these different organisms.
They built their littlevillages and I don't want to
just come in and destroy them.
I want to support them.
So you know, using compost thatwe make, making compost tea and
spraying foliar feeds reallyjust interplant a lot of
interplanting of crops, sorarely do we see just one thing
(21:49):
in a row together.
I think you know prioritizingdiversity.
This year I'm only growing openpollinated varieties so that we
can start working towards seedsaving.
There's a lot of hybrid seedsout there that the control is
not in your hands anymore.
You can plant those out, butthen you won't have those same
flavors coming back.
(22:09):
So I think there's a lot ofinteresting work in like natural
genetic selection that we canbe doing and, yeah, just kind of
trying to work with what we'vebeen given.
We're not doing any sprays likeno pesticides, no herbicides,
no fungicides.
We could do it and sometimesthey could work, but I don't
(22:31):
think we can understand what'sreally going on in our soils if
we keep spraying these.
It's kind of like puttingantibiotics globally on our land
.
We need to kind of let some ofthe diseases build up in order
for things to come back intobalance.
Chef James (22:48):
Wow, that's really cool.
Okay, I've said before too withother farmers that you know my
farming family goes, you know,way back to multi generations in
Northern California.
We had 400 acres up there thatmy great-grandfather founded
after he had gotten back andkind of established himself
(23:10):
after World War I you know, andit just kind of took off.
You know, and you know myexperience in growing up with
all that.
I've seen the effects on theland.
You know the effects on myfamily members that you know due
to, you know, some of theseprocesses that have been handed
(23:30):
to our farmers way back thenwith not, you know,
understanding a correctiveaction but not really
understanding the long-termeffect.
And it's pretty eye-opening.
And I think the special thingis that today we're farming as
going in many of our local areasin New England and our New
(23:53):
England farmers and I know ourother farmers across the country
are working on that too.
But there's just becoming abetter voice for our future of
farming, even though we're kindof like combating our large
corporate ag system right now.
I think that a lot of the workthat you're doing I mean it's
(24:13):
all the foundational work forhealthy longevity.
Chef Linh (24:17):
Absolutely.
I mean the food we put in ourbody.
That is medicine.
It's important to be feedingourselves nutrient-dense foods,
and we're also designed thatthose nutrient-dense foods will
taste better to us if we're likereally paying attention to what
our bodies are telling us wewant, right?
(24:39):
Yeah, so it's the 100thanniversary of Biodynamics, a
practice brought on by RudolfSteiner, and they were talking,
you know, 100 years ago, aboutall these farmers coming
together and they're like, whatdo we do?
It's the beginning of chemicalfertilizers, tractors.
Chef James (25:02):
Yeah.
Chef Linh (25:02):
How do we farm?
And I just think it's so funnywe're asking the same questions.
What do we do in the face ofchemical fertilizers and
machinery and the bigger systemsthat be?
But I think now people arepaying more attention.
I think it's more normal to behaving these discussions and I
(25:26):
think that's incredibly helpful.
You know, out of COVID, All CSAsales, farm sales went through
the roof.
Chef James (25:33):
Unbelievable.
I was so excited, I mean thatwas so amazing for so many farms
, wow.
And they went from like smallfarm stores to like they had to
remodel, they had to expandtheir selections.
That was so cool, you know.
And talking to some of ourfarmers for two they've kind of
admitted that you know there wasa massive wave during COVID,
(25:54):
like you said, but now it's kindof like dropped a little bit.
So how do you keep that?
You know, momentum, becausewe're, you know, by going to our
local farms.
I mean people don't realize that, like you had mentioned before,
you know you've got this threepack of romaine heart that comes
from I don't know SanBernardino or what have you, in
(26:17):
Bakersfield or you know, andcomes all the way across the
United States.
And nutritionally, you knowI've said it before, but the
longer it sets, the weaker itgets.
And to get these products withthe integrity that you all
provide is so substantial, notto mention your shelf life, the
(26:38):
quality in which you're gettingfrom that producer product.
Even foraging for a mushroom, Imean you can go get one, you
know, like a myotake, out of thestore and then go forage one
and do it side by side.
It's just unreal.
Chef Linh (26:53):
Right, but I think that the convenience factor is
is really strong.
Unfortunately, yeah, I thinkthere's a lot going on with
consumers.
Money's a little tight rightnow and if it's not just right
there in the grocery store at anappropriate price, it's hard
for people.
(27:14):
It's not impossible.
I think there probably arelocal farms around you just got
to go look for them.
But what you're going to getit's going to look a little bit
different.
But I think that's okay.
In our CSA I tell people allthe time when you get a CSA from
Dandelion Forest Farm productsare going to look really
(27:35):
different.
I love different colors anddifferent flavors and I also
every week tell our sharemembers this is what I would do
with your crop share, to put ittogether to make the most use of
everything.
But if we're used to onlyromaine hearts, do people know
what to do with the wholeromaine lettuce?
Chef James (27:56):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
I mean it's peel it down andthen throw it out.
Chef Linh (28:02):
Or lettuce that's not in a plastic bin, that's triple
washed in baby greens.
Chef James (28:07):
Right, exactly, and I think that's I don't know.
I think people now that they'rerealizing because some of these
, these Netflix documentariesare coming out and they're
really showing some of thesethat are, for example, Michael
Pollan.
Really eye-opening to reallythe underbelly of what we're
dealing with.
And again it's being educated.
(28:30):
I mean, do you guys, did I seeyou do workshops or things like
that too?
Chef Linh (28:36):
by chance.
Yeah, we do workshops on thefarm.
Yeah, okay.
Chef James (28:40):
And that's cool.
What kind of stuff.
Chef Linh (28:42):
Do you do with that?
So we've done, we've done asheet mulching workshop.
We've been thinking about doingone on like the three sisters
growing.
Chef James (28:52):
Oh, very cool.
Chef Linh (28:53):
The Abenaki do seven sisters.
Chef James (28:55):
Yep.
Chef Linh (28:56):
Maybe doing someone like seed saving.
Okay, and I think we'll justget people to grow something.
Grow anything.
Even if you're in an apartment,put a pot of basil in your
window, sill Right.
Chef James (29:08):
Right, it's a starter.
Chef Linh (29:09):
Reconnecting in a tiny symbolic level Right Is a
start.
Chef James (29:14):
It is, yeah, absolutely.
Well.
It's funny too because likethat I have done those.
The three sisters garden andthat man, they take off.
I had like 21 of them and Ieven grew one of the squash I
did was a Hopi, pale Gray andthey're huge.
I mean, it took, it went fromlike it's the garden patch all
(29:37):
the way across my lawn, like itwas so happy.
It's like I'm here, you know,of course I have to go out and
sage and I do my wholecommunication with them, because
they're, you know, they're aliving organism, right, I mean,
I think, whether it's a plant oranything, good energy feed you,
you know.
But that's pretty cool thatyou're doing that as well.
(29:59):
Obviously, it's an obviousquestion, but everything that
you grow on your farm, you'redoing like six courses and
you're or multi-courses.
Chef Linh (30:09):
Yeah, so it's myself and my chef partner, elizabeth
Hasket.
We do a six course family styledinner for farmers' table.
Chef James (30:20):
Okay.
Chef Linh (30:21):
And it's 40 people and it's been a really wonderful
way to showcase everything.
We've been talking aboutProducts that we've foraged,
things that we've made, justproduce that we're growing here,
having these conversations,showing people these are the
plants that your food is comingfrom.
You can eat.
You can eat dandelions and doxseed.
(30:43):
You know these edible plantsare all around you right now.
And then showing them not onlywhat it is, but then making them
eat it as well, reallyreinforce the point.
Chef James (30:56):
And it's really enlightening, isn't it?
I mean, are there anything?
Is there anything that youplant wise, that you have done
that?
You're like, I didn't expect itto do what it did and taste,
and I was really surprised by it.
Chef Linh (31:11):
So all of last season I did a cornbread for the table
and it's a really adaptablerecipe.
I've been playing around withalternative flowers and so I
highlighted the dox seed.
You know, everyone's got curlydock growing in their yard and
it's really noticeable when thatbrown flower stock comes off.
(31:31):
So we just pulled off all theshaft and ground it and added it
to the cornbread and it wasjust a really symbolic way of
eating the weeds and trying notto use, you know, not to view
them as weeds, yeah, and so thatkind of set the tone for the
rest of the dinners.
Chef James (31:51):
Wow, that's so cool.
I mean, and you're located.
Do you wanna let New Hampshire?
What region or locationspecifically are you?
Chef Linh (31:59):
We're in the Seacoast , so kind of in between
Portsmouth and Manchester.
Chef James (32:02):
Okay, there we go.
Yeah, I need to.
I should come do a dinnersometime.
Chef Linh (32:07):
That would be great.
Chef James (32:08):
That'd be so cool.
I mean, you've got your CSAs.
You're rolling through thatwhen it comes to getting the
help that you need.
How are you all doing that?
I mean, that's farm labor.
Chef Linh (32:20):
Yeah Well, I know how much time I have in a day, so
the majority of it is me rightnow.
I'm hoping to have a collegeintern this summer.
Chef James (32:32):
So, cool.
Chef Linh (32:34):
We have a couple of people helping with the dinners
and then my husband helps outwith some of the infrastructure
projects.
But it's a lot and I have allthese ideas and other projects I
wanna do, but I'm trying totake it one step at a time,
Really planning things out,getting systems figured out so
(32:55):
we could be a little moreefficient.
Chef James (32:57):
Right, which is so cool, wow.
Well, looking at like howyou're planning things and
stages like your ultimate dream,from what in the amazing work
you're doing now, where do youhope to see things go for you
with this?
Chef Linh (33:12):
Yeah, so I live here, but I also live 20 years from
now.
Chef James (33:20):
I worked with you for a few days, so I picked up
on it.
Chef Linh (33:24):
It's just figuring out how to get there, but I've
been visiting a time where wehave fruit from June through
November and it's almost alledible perennials.
So I'm just doing a lot ofpruning in the winter,
harvesting, preserving in thesummer, doing the dinners and
(33:45):
then taking a break in thewinter.
So right now it's kind of alittle bit of everything, but
hopefully focusing it more andthen out of the perennial crops
that we're growing to developmore of a nursery to encourage
other folks to be growing theseplants also.
Chef James (34:00):
Oh wow.
So would you actually do alittle pot, like little grower
packs sprouts for people?
Chef Linh (34:06):
Yeah, so, and we actually have extra chestnuts
right now that we're sellingchestnuts oh, really Hazelnuts,
yeah, ooh, hazelnuts, mm-hmm.
Chef James (34:15):
That's awesome.
Chef Linh (34:16):
You just have to beat the squirrels.
Chef James (34:19):
Well, that's the same with the acorns, isn't it?
Chef Linh (34:22):
Yes, yes, but usually I think with there's just so
many acorns in a mast year, youcan keep up with them a little
bit more than the hazelnuts.
Chef James (34:31):
Okay, okay.
Chef Linh (34:32):
Now, how do you?
Now?
You do that too.
Chef James (34:34):
Now that's a soaking and a leaching process with the
acorns that's.
Can you describe that process?
Chef Linh (34:40):
That's kind of how to make it, yeah, so we just had a
really good season last year.
So you got to pick all theacorns, give them a float test,
you keep all the sinkers, thenjust let them dry and they're
good for years in the shell.
So when you need them.
You can crack them out the daybuilt nutcracker is really great
or you can get a towel and ahammer, take all the nut meats
(35:03):
out, grind them up and just Iuse the cold soap method so you
just remove the tannins, so youjust soak it in water.
The water's gonna turn tan,okay, and you just give it
several changes till it doesn'ttaste bitter, and then you can
dry them and grind them up touse this flour.
Chef James (35:22):
That's so cool and have you done like muffins or?
Chef Linh (35:27):
Yeah, it's also like a really nice alternative flour
and I think with the rise ofgluten-free baking there's so
many good recipes out there andyou can just swap them in Really
good pancakes crepes.
They go really well in thatcornbread also.
Chef James (35:42):
Right.
Well, and again, it is aprocess, but you get so much out
of it from doing that andlearning it.
I know we were sharing before.
Earlier I was over therereducing maple sap for maple
syrup, and one thing that I'vealways appreciated is that
getting the opportunity to stepin someone else's shoes.
(36:03):
To me, a chef, we'restorytellers and it's trying to
do my best by you, from what youprovide, or us collabing on
something, that we're in thiscoexistent journey together,
that what goes on the platereally has power behind it.
That's 100% real and I thinkthat's the beauty of it and I
(36:27):
really thrive off of that.
Chef Linh (36:29):
Exactly and, I think, tying it back to if you just
buy some bagged romaine heartsin the grocery store, I'm not
sure you want to tell that story.
There is a story there, butbeing a little bit more aware of
the process and figuring out,where did our food come from?
Where did those seeds come from?
Who's been saving these seedsall this time?
How do they get to be here?
(36:50):
How does maple happen from atree?
It gives you a new perspectiveon all of the food that we
consume on a daily basis.
Chef James (37:00):
Right, and my other question I actually had down in
just your thoughts.
But as we see our farmerscontinuing to age out, there is
a level of a gap that isstarting to happen.
And I'm a pretty logical person.
But as I'm looking at it I'mthinking, okay, maybe it's
(37:21):
because of technology and theway things in life and societal
shifts.
I don't want to say we'vebecome more comfortable, but
we've been a little dependent onthings.
When you go into a no-till farmlike yours, I mean when you're
done with a 10 hour, 12 hour aday, I wouldn't even know what
to say.
I mean, there's like, is thereany?
(37:43):
There's a lot of stretchinginvolved, I'm sure, but there's
quite a challenge with trying toget our young farmers because
they are inspired and they arewonderful.
But how do we protect that andmove it forward?
I mean, what are your thoughtson that?
Chef Linh (38:02):
Absolutely.
It is definitely a challenge.
The good news is I've met andcontinued to meet so many
impassioned young people whowant to work the land.
They see that this is a wayforward for everyone.
The biggest challenges rightnow, I think, are the cost of
(38:23):
land and the cost of housing andthe cost of everything else,
but yet our food prices arecontinually artificially
repressed, so the economics ofit make it really really tough
these days.
I don't have a silver bulletanswer.
I think people have to be moreclever than ever, exploring more
(38:45):
of these cooperative typemodels to do some sort of
equipment sharing or laborsharing.
But I think on a smaller level,every dollar matters.
So when we vote with ourdollars and we keep voting for
smaller, more community-scaledfoods, that opens up a bigger
(39:08):
market for these younger farmersto get a foot in the door and
figure out a model that worksfor them.
Chef James (39:14):
Right and that you know it's funny and you
mentioned kind of that.
Here they have the BerkshireMobile Farmers Market, which is
really cool.
I actually had them on thepodcast but Berkshire Grown
actually is the big piece tothat.
But they have gotten a grant tostart this project where they
(39:36):
can do these mobile farmermarkets and local farms could
send their product or meet themat these locations where people
had food insecurity could get it.
And it's not like a big stretchof a farmer's market, it's a
small, you know I don't want tosay a 10 by 10 with some tables,
(39:59):
but it is a smaller version ofit.
And they also had a buyingprogram that was very
respectfully discreet to peoplethat can or cannot afford it and
how much they can afford to doprotecting their privacy on that
.
But that was really cool to seethat to start to happen.
Chef Linh (40:19):
Yeah, that sounds fantastic, I think anyway we can
be again using everything thatis grown.
If we can, as chefs, becreating ways or programs that
you know to let farmers know hey, if you have B grade tomatoes
it doesn't matter, because we'regoing to cook them up anyway.
(40:40):
So if they don't look perfect,you know I'll take them to
create that ahead of time, to beestablishing those
relationships.
So all of those foods gosomewhere that's not just to
compost.
Chef James (40:53):
Right, exactly, that's actually a good idea for
even possibly our school foodsystems as well.
You know those seconds and it'sfunny.
I remember reading a while backand I could be wrong, but I
thought there was something towhen these vegetables or this
produce has, you know, nothorrible blemishes, but they
have some blemishes and somedings, some scarring, that their
(41:18):
nutritional value is actually alittle bit higher or stronger,
is that?
Chef Linh (41:23):
yeah, I heard that Okay yeah.
I think like a lot of producethat's grown in like the Andes,
because the altitude is so high,it stresses the plants out more
and so the plants have to putmore nutrients and defenses up
to support themselves, whichthen strengthens us.
Or when a plant is gettingeaten by something it's trying
(41:47):
to defend, and so it's actuallybetter for us.
And probably the reason why alot of grape farmers they're not
irrigating or fertilizing, theywant stressed plants because
that's more flavor.
Chef James (42:01):
Right, okay, well, thank you for confirming that
this is just amazing.
The wealth of knowledge thatyou have, I mean your commitment
to you know what you're doing.
It really is inspiring.
I mean I'm really grateful thatyou know we've got a chance to
you know, to meet, work togetherand where I could learn more
about what you're doing and whatyou provide, because I mean,
(42:23):
you're on it, you know, in somany ways.
Chef Linh (42:27):
So yeah, well, I mean , I feel like we are.
We're certainly on a learningjourney.
We certainly don't haveanything figured out.
It's nice to have the time andspace to to try a bunch of stuff
and share this knowledge.
In.
As much as sometimes I hatesocial media, it's also a
wonderful place to connect withfolks and to put this knowledge
(42:50):
out there.
So it's just wonderful to beable to have normalized
conversations about our biggersystems and our smaller food
systems.
Chef James (42:59):
Well, I know, and that's where I'm so grateful for
today.
So where can people just go toyour website and are your
tickets for your dinners forsale there?
Chef Linh (43:09):
Yeah, so we're going to be really seeing our tickets
end of March.
If you sign up on ournewsletter from our website,
we'll let our newsletter folkshave first crack at this ticket.
And we're accepting CSA sharesright now for those areas.
And yeah, folks want to buychestnut trees.
We've got seedlings.
Chef James (43:30):
I actually think I need to grab a couple of those.
Chef Linh (43:33):
That would be great.
Chef James (43:34):
You know, you never know, but, like, maybe truffle
farming could be in your future,well cool.
So thank you, chef Linh, foryour time.
This has been awesome.
It's so good to see you again.
Chef Linh (43:46):
Yeah, this was so great.
We should definitely be doingthis more often.
Chef James (43:50):
Thank you, I can't wait, take care.
Yeah, all right, everyone, thatis a wrap.
You can check us out if youlike that.
Subscribe Also the InstagramChef Massey.
Let's keep it simple, chefMasseycom.
Have a good one.
Bye for now.
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