Can a neighborhood fish market transform into a powerhouse in the seafood industry? Join us on Chef Sense as we explore the remarkable story of Wolf's Fish, guided by Alishia, the Director of Marketing and Brand Strategy. From its origins in Brookline in 1926, founded by Sam Wolf, to becoming a top wholesale distributor, Alicia shares how their team of chef insiders, including herself, continually elevate their offerings to meet the demanding needs of other chefs. Alisha takes us through the high-stakes, fast-paced decisions that define this vibrant industry. We delve into the critical importance of integrity, traceability, and sustainability in sourcing, and how these factors contribute to Wulf's Fish's long-standing reputation for excellence. The episode also sheds light on the specialized roles within this ecosystem, from tuna buyers to shellfish experts, and the pride that comes from providing near-century old top-quality seafood.
Thank you Alisha Lumea and Wulf's Fish!!,
https://wulfsfish.com/
Thank you to our listeners!!
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Episode Transcript
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Chef James (00:14):
Hey everyone, welcome to Chef Sense.
I'm your host, chef Massey.
Okay, so today on the podcastwe have Alisha from Wulf's Fish.
Thanks for being on.
Thanks for having me Just tokind of go into real quick my
background with connecting withyou guys at Wolf's Fish, which
you guys have such amazingproduct.
(00:34):
It first came through Berkshire, so you know, I know that there
was that merge there and we canprobably talk about that.
But again, phenomenal product,you know, and integrity that you
guys have there, can you gointo your role, I guess,
starting at ground zero of whatyou do there and kind of work
into the history and the visionof Wulf's Fish and maybe even
(00:55):
the merge?
Alisha (00:57):
Sure, so my role with Wolves is I'm the director of
marketing and brand strategy, soI've been in the seafood
industry since 2009.
It's kind of setting up nowAwesome, and actually started
with another company that'sbecome a division of Wolf's,
which is Clean Fish, which isworking with sustainable
(01:17):
producers from around the world,which they're great as well,
yeah, on the import side andthere's so much exciting that's
happening with aquaculture inparticular and just really
interesting things around theworld.
So Wolf's itself has gonethrough, you know, quite a few
different iterations since itwas founded in 1926.
(01:38):
Wolf's was a neighborhood fishmarket located in Brookline and
so that was, you know, really adifferent world of seafood
buying and of you know howpeople were eating seafood, how
people were shopping at localmarkets.
You know it was founded by SamWolf in 1926.
His great nephew.
Chef James (02:00):
Richie Taylor still works at the company.
Alisha (02:00):
So we have, we have continuity.
Richie Richie's in his 70s andcomes in every morning at, I
think, about 3.30 to buy fishstill, I mean, yeah, he's a
committed lifer, that's for sure, and a huge authority on
seafood and buying.
And it's really seen it all forchanges in the industry at this
(02:21):
point.
So in 2016, the company decidedto close the retail location
just because how people shop hadchanged, the neighborhood had
changed, and decided to get intothe wholesale distribution
business.
So, relocated from Brooklinedown to the Fish Pier, merged
with another small companycalled George's Bank that was
(02:41):
doing some wholesaledistribution.
It's actually grown out of somechef relationships.
Max Harvey ran that side of thebusiness and he was a chef
who's worked around Boston for along time.
He worked with Jasper White fora long time and yeah and kind
of built the company first outof supplying Jasper White and
restaurants.
Chef James (02:59):
Which is great.
So like chef-centric.
Alisha (03:02):
Yeah.
Chef James (03:03):
Pretty cool.
Alisha (03:03):
Absolutely.
I mean honestly, honestly, upand down our whole, our whole
masthead of people at everylevel of the company.
There's a lot of them who'vecooked before okay, we have a
lot of kind of former chefs inall aspects.
I mean, even I, I cooked before.
Um, that's awesome so okay,yeah, and so I.
It brings that culinarysensibility to it.
(03:25):
I mean, if you're running awholesale business, your primary
.
I mean your customer is the chef.
So if you understand theirperspective, what they want you
know and what they're lookingfor and why something might be
interesting or not, thatdefinitely helps that
relationship, you know, and itbuilds that.
Chef James (03:41):
Yeah Well, do you think what we're doing?
Well exactly, you know, and itbuilds that.
Yeah Well, do you think whatwe're doing Well exactly.
Do you think that sets you guys, uh Wolf's fish, apart from the
competition, or who's out there?
Alisha (03:52):
I think it does I mean you know, you will find other
former.
You know former chefsthroughout the industry, you
know people hit a place wherethey're like this isn't for me
anymore, right, maybe they'vehad their knees replaced already
and they need a different kindof job.
(04:12):
I've seen them at the industry.
Everyone who's been in thekitchen knows how that happens,
but I think that theconcentration and the real
culinary focus is different forus.
I mean, I think I don't knowthat other companies would have
quite so many people who startedoff in hospitality and cooks
and are passionate cooks at hometoo.
(04:33):
So they really like you know wedon't just get a product on a
spec sheet.
We're going to, you know, we'regoing to do a tasting, we're
going to do a cutting, we'regoing to see what it looks like,
we're going to put it in ourtest kitchen even, and you know,
and really put it through itspaces too.
Chef James (04:47):
Oh, which is great.
It's huge, yeah, yeah.
Alisha (04:50):
No, I mean it's important to be able to tell
chefs that.
So you know we really come toevery product from that side of
things you know.
So sometimes I think we, youknow, we see the opportunities
and things maybe another companydoesn't see.
Because it cooks, we can seewhy it's an exciting ingredient
or why we would want to cookwith that.
Right you know it makes animpression.
Chef James (05:12):
Well, you know, I think any time that you can
connect like that is just huge,you know, and I think it helps
with.
You know, once you build thattrust in the program, it's like
the chefs and everybody's.
Just it almost makes itseamless to a certain extent, I
would imagine.
Alisha (05:28):
It does, and it also, you know, it's allowed us to say
so in 2020,.
We launched our e-commercethrough wolffishcom.
We're actually selling the samefish that we sell to chefs
package.
We decided to super freeze itfor convenience and we're
selling that to home cooks.
And so we, you know, we bringthat same sensibility as well to
(05:49):
what we want to cook at home,what we find accessible, what we
don't find accessible.
you know, and really help bridgethat gap for people, because I
think seafood is probably themost challenging category.
You know, if you're apassionate home cook and you
really want to get your hands onsome good ingredients, you can
order all your specialty grains.
You can get your spices you canmake connections, sometimes
(06:12):
even with local farmers througha market.
But your seafood, you know it'snot that easy to get what you
want.
Chef James (06:17):
Well, it's so diverse.
Alisha (06:20):
Like, yes, so diverse, and it's unfortunately the
market, um.
I mean, the market reflectswhat the american public tends
to eat, and that's salmon,shrimp and tuna right, right
yeah exactly so.
So getting beyond that,depending on where you live too,
can be really challenging.
(06:40):
Do you have a fish marketnearby can?
Can you actually get thatquality?
Can you get more than threespecies?
Maybe four?
Chef James (06:49):
on offer.
Alisha (06:50):
Exactly.
Chef James (06:52):
Well, you know, and that's interesting too because,
I have to say, being here in theBerkshires, being Western Mass,
and you know it's surprisinglyfor many, for many years, it was
hard to get excellent seafood.
You know, I think that we havesome large broad liner vendors
(07:12):
and you know other companieshere that have, you know, that
level of reach of good.
You know seafood, but, comingfrom Canyon Ranch, you know, as
the chef I was really focused onproviding our guests, you know,
with the highest quality Icould get ahold of.
You know, I'm with you guystoday because of that.
(07:33):
It's not easy to to get.
It sounds so silly to you know,I guess, cause I'm coming from
the West coast.
You know, coming in here I'mlike wow, it's.
You know it's only three hoursor you know what have you away
and yeah, but it's.
There really was a challengeand I think, being able to find
someone, and I know that this isgoing into Berkshire, but, you
(07:56):
know, working with Wes Malzonewhen he was owning and operating
that, that part that you guyscurrently have under your
umbrella.
What reached me about that andwhat grabbed me?
There's a couple of things.
One was Wes started his companyand he was so passionate, like
the energy rolled off of him.
And he came in to Canyon Ranchand we started talking about
(08:20):
things and I shared with him mythoughts about trying to find
excellent seafood and, boy, ifhe couldn't, I mean he would
just sell you on.
Just, he is excellence, right.
So one I have to tell you.
One morning he came in, cameinto the kitchen and said, hey,
look, you got to check this out.
I'm like you know, sure, ofcourse he's all excited.
(08:41):
Let's go down to the truck.
I've got it down here in thetruck, you know.
So we went down there, jumpedinto the, to the back of his box
truck and he opened up thecontainer and he was so excited
about how beautiful thesescallops were.
He's like look, jim, I just gotthese.
You know, of course it wasearly in the morning there, so
(09:01):
he opened it up, gave me a youknow, a piece of the scallop
there.
So he opened it up, gave me apiece of the scallop.
He's like you got to try itright now.
And I did and it was just thisdelicate, beautiful piece of the
ocean.
And I think, as a chef, whenpeople get what you're looking
for and you pull from theirenergy and they pull from you.
Man, it's just, it's so awesomebecause you know when that
(09:27):
comes in and it hits the plate,that energy is just going to
continue.
So I just had to share thatpart.
Alisha (09:32):
Oh no, that's fantastic.
I mean, a truly great freshscallop is really one of the
things that can consistentlyblow your socks off.
Really, I mean, that'sdefinitely the kind of thing
that stays in memory.
(09:57):
You know, Wes obviously isstill with the company he
founded Berkshire because he ohyeah back and forth all the time
why is the fish not getting outthere?
And so he saw, you know, he sawthat need and that there's such
wonderful restaurants in theberkshires who really would be
excited to buy the best thatcould get their hands on.
And so he started berkshire tobe bringing seafood five days a
(10:18):
week from boston and picking itup, and so one of the places he
was getting, you know, scallopsand other products was Wolf's
and we're.
Actually he was buying a lotfrom us and then trucking it out
, and so it was a really anatural build on that
relationship.
Chef James (10:34):
As Wolf's was growing.
Alisha (10:36):
We had.
You know you start any smallbusiness and then, of course, at
some point, once you getsuccessful, you have capacity
issues.
You, once you get successful,you have capacity issues.
How many trucks do you have?
How many people can preparethose orders Do you have?
A full team, so that you'rereally, really getting the best
every single time, Going to thefront of the line when that new
tuna comes in, you can getpretty competitive.
Chef James (10:57):
Oh yeah, I'm sure.
Alisha (10:58):
Because there isn't always an excess of perfect
product in the market.
So it made sense for Wes andhis customers to join Wolf and
it made sense for Wolf to expandour capacity beyond the Metro
Boston area with our trucks andsay, hey, we can just do this
together with very few changes.
(11:20):
And he was only buying smallamounts of product from other
places.
It wasn't really a huge changeto just work exclusively through
Wolf's and merge the two teams.
And I think it's been verysuccessful.
Chef James (11:31):
Well, I'd have to say, you know, looking at you
know I know you said 90 yearsand we went right into the
backstory of the company.
But I mean, that's maybe it'spun intended, I guess, but like
you've weathered a lot of stormsand you're still going strong
and leading the way in many ways.
Alisha (11:51):
Absolutely no.
I mean, it's a long time forany business to survive.
We're coming up to 98 years nowfor any business, especially in
food to go 98 years and stillbe independently owned.
We are not part of a largercorporation with corporate
mandate.
Part of why we can have thebest products is we get to do
(12:11):
what we want.
We're a company of obsessivesfor quality and there's no
mandate.
It hasn't sold, like manycompanies have, to a larger
corporate entity that then start, as they do, cutting corners,
saying, well, this fabulousthing you're doing isn't that
profitable.
You know, as they do cuttingcorners, you know saying, well,
this fabulous thing you're doingisn't that profitable, Maybe
you should stop.
But we don't have that.
You know we're able to stillkeep our vision and be the kind
(12:33):
of company we want to be and.
I think that you know has been areal strength.
I mean you need a teamcommitted, you know, to make
that happen from from ownershipall the way down, and we do that
.
We've been able to, you know,expand with the addition of
Berkshire.
We also ship seafood, you know,around the country.
You know, there are chefs inother markets in Nashville, in
Charleston, south Carolina outin.
(12:54):
Arizona even.
Chef James (12:56):
Yeah.
Alisha (12:56):
Especially somewhere like Arizona, like they don't
have a pipeline to.
Chef James (13:00):
No, no, and that's Coming in from the water.
It's hard.
Yeah, a lot of that's comingthrough lax and stuff.
I mean I actually was chefingin arizona as well, so it's very
hard yeah there is, I meanthere is la in that pipeline.
Alisha (13:14):
If you want east coast specialties, right, um, then
it's a little bit harder yeah,the coast certainly hold their
specialties separate.
I was in california for a longtime too, so I know how okay oh
cool.
The West Coast loves certainfish that the East Coast doesn't
care about, and vice versa.
So you know if you're out Westand you want to bring, you know,
east Coast oysters or somethingyou're going to, you might
(13:36):
struggle a little bit moregetting those, those particular
varieties.
Yeah, we've expanded to youknow, to be able to do that when
there's demand shipped to othermarkets.
We started our e-commerce for2020, like I said, you know,
during the pandemic, as many did, but we were fortunately
already thinking pretty quicklyand really were committed to
(14:03):
staying the course, becausethat's a whole other business
entirely.
But, you know, but we'recommitted to it and feel like it
also fills a really interestingniche.
You know, I think it's excitingfor us to be able to distribute
throughout the state Most ofthe seafood distributors in
Boston.
Worcester is kind of the end ofthe world.
(14:23):
They don't go past it Right,like you know anything further
than that.
Chef James (14:29):
Well, and that you know.
That's the thing too.
I mean.
So, looking at like thecommitment to excellence, like
quality and sourcing and vetting, how does that process look for
you guys?
Sharing it with some of ourlisteners?
Alisha (14:41):
Sure, it's really.
I mean, one of the amazingthings about seafood and why
it's exciting to work in theindustry is the incredible
diversity.
I've never worked in chicken,but I imagine, if you do, it's
just chicken.
There's some varieties, butthey're not really in the market
, Whereas seafood we're going tohave hundreds of different
(15:03):
products coming through ourwarehouse every day, Like not
dozens, literal hundreds, and soeach one of those represents a
different relationship and adifferent relationship for the
buyer and they all come indifferently, even through local
species.
You know even differentdistributors.
You might have offload permitsfor one kind of fish but not
another kind of fish.
(15:24):
There's both.
Yeah, I, I mean it's highlyregulated.
So like, for example, weoffload, we direct offload,
black sea bass in the summer onthe cape, and that's a
particular relationship thatwe're licensed for.
There might be another kind offish, like tuna.
Those are different licenses.
So then we partner with thatperson and have those strong
relationships to work withsomebody you know, work with
(15:47):
somebody who is exclusively atuna buyer, and some of that is
just about our longevity.
On the pier I said Richie Taylor, who you know.
He started working at hisfamily's fish market after he
graduated college in the 70s andjust decided to do anything
else.
He liked it there and stayed,and so he knows everyone.
I mean you know, and so doesyou know, Max Harvey, who came
(16:10):
from you know, the one whochefed at George's Bank.
He also knows a lot of people.
There's a lot that's aboutrelationships in the business
Bala, which many people follow.
he was kind of our head ofquality and also really, really
in charge of buying the bigcharges, buying the big fish,
the tuna sword, like that's hisparticular specialty okay, he
was some people know him becausehe's on.
(16:31):
He was on instagram, was veryactive.
I think he had like 70 000followers cut fish he doesn't
post as much anymore but becausehe's just so good at it and so
he has relationships particularto those fish.
Okay.
And that's how specialized theycan get Becca, who's our new
head of procurement?
(16:51):
She's a shellfish specialist,so she has particular
relationships with oyster farms.
Chef James (16:56):
Okay, it's one of her real strengths.
Alisha (16:58):
And so I mean the buying is so complicated every day.
Yeah, Four people who areactively buying every single day
, because it is hundreds ofspecies.
Chef James (17:08):
And you're doing it, you're just flipping.
There's so much coming in.
Alisha (17:11):
Yeah, and it's so much, and it's so fast.
Chef James (17:14):
Yes.
Alisha (17:14):
Everything has to move fast.
Yes, if you take the fish outof water, the timer starts to
tick.
Chef James (17:19):
Well, and that's what I loved about it.
Alisha (17:21):
Everything has to move so quickly.
Chef James (17:23):
Yeah, Well, because it just you know, what I noticed
was the turnaround is so quickfrom placing the order with you
guys that literally the productyou're getting, it's just
outstanding, that turnaroundtime.
Alisha (17:37):
It is amazing.
Some of that is part of therisk of the seafood business.
Chef James (17:41):
I mean based on.
Alisha (17:42):
You know when Bala is out buying tuna at 3.30 in the
morning, you know, and he's gota guy and his contacts know that
we'll only buy.
We'll only buy the top grade.
It's like A1s, you can get 1sand 2s and there's a whole
complicated system of how thosebig fish get graded.
Chef James (18:01):
There's a grading system.
Alisha (18:02):
We only buy the top one so you those big fish get graded
the grading system.
You only buy the top one.
So you know he's got a guy andthey'll put the top ones aside
and make those decisions.
But at tree 30 he had to guesswhat kind of tuna the market's
gonna like.
How many chefs are gonna want ityou know when it's really good,
then he knows well, it's thathot, they're gonna everybody's
gonna want it and we'll postabout it and sometimes I think
we sell it on instagram honestly, like we'll post a line that's
(18:23):
so beautiful.
Chef James (18:23):
Yeah.
The chefs are literally ontheir phone right now trying to
get a piece of it, and that'shard too.
Alisha (18:30):
A lot of it is speculation that way, like we
have to guess a little bit.
Chef James (18:34):
Okay, well, yeah, and that just and again, looking
at that window of time, is itreally is short, I mean, and not
you know, and on top of this,looking at like traceability and
sustainability and all of that,you know how, is the vision for
you guys.
Alisha (18:52):
You know, withholding that up, I mean everything that
we.
The points of traceability,honestly they it's always
visible.
Not everyone's invested inbeing accountable for that.
I mean we know where a fishcomes from, it has to have
paperwork.
It says where it comes from.
I think there are people in thebusiness at various stages,
particularly the distributorlevel, unfortunately.
(19:14):
But honestly, down to therestaurant, they don't
necessarily give the rightanswer, even if it's in front of
them, because it's not whatthey want, they might say
something is a different.
You know, it happens with adifferent species, or like tuna
point the chef orders a numberone and someone says yeah, yeah,
yeah, it's a number one, not anumber one Like it's a number
two.
So there's, you know, there's alot of accountability in the
(19:35):
system and it really comes downto the integrity.
It's not mysterious when peoplesay you can't know.
That's not true.
Chef James (19:42):
Yeah, yeah, and you guys have that.
You have that integrity, andobviously that's why you've been
around for 98 years.
So, wow, that's amazing.
Alisha (19:52):
Yeah, we're proud of how we source.
We don't feel the need to adaptto anything because we're
already sourcing products thatwe feel really good about.
So no incentive at all to tellsomething else, and that's
honestly a big part of onceyou've established yourself as
that kind of company.
That's why people come backright you know, as a chef, if
(20:13):
you order, you know you ordernumber one soon and you keep
getting number two.
You're gonna stop calling right,right because that's not what
you asked for yeah, yeah youknow, and if you always get
exactly what you asked for, oryou know like you're looking for
those perfect scallops and youget them and they're perfect
every time, then you're going tokeep coming back and that kind
(20:33):
of trust is what so much of whatthe business is built on.
Chef James (20:37):
Well, and it's so fast yeah, yeah.
No, it is huge and it is hardand that's extra work, you know,
involved with that, you know,for educating the, the chef or
the buyer.
But you know I know, like I haveto say too, it was great
because being a part of you knowCanyon Ranch and our philosophy
and again, and I carry, I carrythat philosophy as a chef
(20:59):
period, the big piece to what wewere building there.
You know being a part of theMonterey Bay Seafood Watch and
then also, you know followingthe global or the GSA or Global
Seafood Alliance with our BAPscoring system.
You know being able to havesomebody with integrity, like
(21:20):
you guys.
You know it's my job to be thevisionary and kind of like the
vetter myself.
It's my job to kind of policethat and make sure that what's
coming in is a part of my vision, a part of the.
You know the company's visionand you guys have always
(21:41):
provided that if there werethings that came up or maybe
suggestions or their grading hadchanged and you know gone from
best choice and slipped, and tobe able to look at alternatives
and work with you guys throughthat commitment on our side as a
chef has always beenoutstanding.
Alisha (22:02):
Thank you.
I mean that's that's reallygreat to hear and that's
definitely what.
What we want to do to reallyhelp especially to the issue of
sustainability and how we lookat that and honestly, it can
mean different things todifferent people.
There are so many aspects ofhow something is produced that
you know we try to work with thecustomer to help fulfill their
(22:23):
vision.
You know, for some people thatmight be sourcing only local
products and that's what'simportant to them and they want
to, you know, really pursue justlocal products because it's
sustaining the local market.
They feel strongly about thosespecies.
For some, it's about, you know,it's about certification or
some of the exciting productsthat are happening in
(22:43):
aquaculture, which is a lot.
I mean there's incredibleinnovation in that sector and
people really I mean reallypushing the envelope on how we
can sustainably raise food.
Chef James (22:56):
And that's.
Alisha (22:56):
I mean, honestly, that's a part of the business that I
get excited about, because wildfood is a finite resource.
I mean it's great, but there'snot going to be more of it,
honestly, like it's just evennow, there, now, there.
You know there's a scarcity inthe market for many products
that there wasn't years ago andit's only going to get more
complicated with climate change.
There's already species thatare on the move what was the?
(23:19):
local fish years ago.
It's not necessarily local.
It might be on its way tocanada.
Now it's like it's just movingfurther away and even further
South they're getting spottedand caught off the coast of
Massachusetts now.
And we just never would haveseen them before you know, and
that's evolving and it's onlygoing to keep evolving.
You know the fish the fishdon't know where they're
(23:39):
supposed to be.
They're going to say like well,it's so interesting.
Getting warmer, they're goingto keep moving to colder water.
Chef James (23:46):
Well, and that's a thing like I, you know, there
were moments where you knowyou'd get a heads up like, hey,
you know, we, we can get aholdof Mahi because they're starting
to head up this way.
Um wasn't all the time, but itwas like, wow, you can, you know
, just to know that's happening.
You're like, of course I'lltake it.
It's just interesting how that.
You know how that shifts.
Alisha (24:06):
Yeah, I mean it's really shifting a lot and it's
shifting all the time.
The Gulf of Maine, whichstretches well, it has Maine in
the name.
It's not just Maine, it'sreally up from kind of Maritimes
Canada down through Cape Codand that is the fastest warming
body of water, one of thefastest warming body of water on
Earth.
(24:26):
So we're gonna see a lot ofchanges locally.
You know we're definitelyalready seeing them.
Chef James (24:31):
Wow.
Alisha (24:31):
When I was a kid, there was a lot more lobster fishing
from Massachusetts, Rhode Island.
Like we're not getting lobsterfrom Rhode Island anymore,
You're not, Like it's all movednorth.
Yeah, and it's, you know.
So I think we're both in theindustry and, as you know, and
as really conscious eaters andas chefs, we're going to have to
really pay attention and adaptand some of it might be exciting
(24:53):
like mahi.
Some of it might be a species wewanted that just isn't around
anymore, and there might bedisappointment.
I mean, I think it's reallygoing to be.
It'll be a mixed bag, but we'regoing to have to keep adapting
our ideas of what a localproduct is, even, and what we
want to champion and helpeducate diners about.
Something like lobster andscallop prices that have gone up
(25:15):
dramatically, in part asmanagement and part is climate
change and availability.
It's not necessarily comingback.
Chef James (25:23):
Yeah, exactly, I mean do you have anything like
on the website where it would belike chef or consumer education
sections.
Alisha (25:33):
For consumers particularly, and for some of
our like what we consider ourportfolio product wholesale,
which are really products we'rereally excited about and have
really particular sustainabilitystory.
Those all have dedicatedsections on our website okay,
let's talk about, you know, likefrom the wholesale side, all
our portfolio products.
It'll talk about why thisproduct, you know what kind of
(25:54):
sustainability story is behindit, why we feel that you know
this version of this productlike is a particular strength is
a great choice and like whywe're excited about that and on
the our e-commerce side, thewolffishcom site, than that
there's product details yeah,which is great to know um, yeah,
it doesn't always go too deeplyinto something just because you
(26:17):
know it's always hard to gaugehow much explanation people
really want.
Sure, it is changing and so wehave, I mean, as far as a
sustainability initiative thatI'm really excited about.
I actually got so excited aboutthis.
I joined the board ofGreenCraborg.
It's GreenCrab.
This is a it's a climate changestory.
It's a sustainability story.
It's an invasive species story.
Chef James (26:39):
I mean not cool, but you know what I mean Something
to help.
Alisha (26:41):
Yeah, it's cool that we're going to try to.
I mean, we've had them.
We've been offering green crabsfor two years now and was the
only distributor to step up anddo that.
I mean, honestly, no one'sgetting rich off green crabs.
This is the sustainabilityinitiative.
You know we, you know thefisherman gets some, we get some
, but it's not.
You know, it's not like it's agiant money maker, which
(27:02):
explains why other distributorsdidn't want to lean on it.
You'd have to educate people.
Some people said no one's evergoing to eat those.
But honestly, there'sabsolutely no reason why.
I mean, green crabs are inNorth America.
They're an invasive species.
They're from Europe originally.
They came probably in theballast of ships in the 19th
(27:22):
century and so they've been here.
But our big control againsttheir populations was really
cold winters wow you know youneed a hard, hard freeze for
some days.
Wow, we don't really have that.
I mean, I remember even when Iwas a kid, after this mild
winter, thinking like gosh iceskating outside was a childhood
(27:44):
pastime.
That was one of those like.
Your mother's wish was like goskate outside, go to the pond,
get out there, and it was alwaysfrozen all winter.
So that was enough.
Nothing freezes like thatanymore.
So, and that's I grew upactually in the marshy areas on
the North Shore where we'rebuying our green crabs from.
(28:05):
So, nothing is killing them.
The populations have explodedand one green crab can eat 40
juvenile clams in a day.
So when you look at theirvoracious predators, nothing is
you know and they have verylittle competition out there so
they're eating clams, mussels,oysters.
(28:25):
I mean there are huge problemsconstantly around oyster farms,
you know, trying to get into thecages, trying to eat the young
oysters you know, so all theshellfish that is really native
here and that we want to eat issomething being threatened by
green crabs.
They compete with native crabsand lobster.
They eat eelgrass with theirlittle claws, which is eelgrass'
(28:47):
critical habitat the nursery.
Other crustaceans need it andthey're mowing it down.
Wow so anything that we can doto get them out of the water.
And they are edible.
They are small but they makeamazing stock.
Okay, we've had seen chefs andreally think of them as an
ingredient more than as aprotein source.
Okay, yeah, you can't get thethe mean out, but it's a lot of
(29:08):
work.
Yeah, you know we don't, weknow that's not going to work in
most people's kitchen, um, butthey have so much flavor there's
no reason for us not to takethem out.
And you know you're reallygetting great utilization if you
make a bisque like a, like aboyabaisse, is that yeah?
Absolutely okay.
Yeah, they'll make great stockfor that.
(29:30):
I've even used it with likemaking a mushroom risotto with a
crab stock oh, very cool awonderful way to get the flavor.
Yeah, that was delicious.
Um, we see chefs infuse theminto the butter.
They're roasting the crabs,infusing them into butter
straining that off and thenusing that on shellfish very
nice so I think they're reallyat the very beginning stages of
innovation, and some chefs havetried and fusing them into
(29:51):
butter, straining that off andthen using that on shellfish,
Very nice.
So I think they're really at thevery beginning stages of
innovation and some chefs havetried fermenting them, If you
have a place where you canferment and make your own fish
sauce.
That's possible.
Oh, that's really cool.
I think there's a lot of uses.
Chef James (30:00):
Yeah.
Alisha (30:01):
I think we haven't even scratched the surface.
I think of all the fun thingsyou can do, but we have chefs
all over now who are using this,and even actually I've just
been doing some work with SmithCollege is going to put them on
a lunch menu in a couple ofweeks for Earth Day.
So even in a big setting youcan make a difference.
So I'm yeah, I'm really excitedabout that and I think that's
(30:22):
one of our our greatsustainability stories.
And then you know that we feelreally good about like I.
Then you know that we feelreally good about, like I said,
you know it's a small piece ofbusiness, but we've been able to
, you know, really help provideextra income for the clam.
You know, all the clam arethere.
That's green crabs.
Anyone who's shellfish is,because it's literally eating
their business, so he's morethan happy to trap the crabs for
(30:43):
us.
Chef James (30:44):
Wow, well, and that's a great story, you know
we're selling them because youunlike most things, you better
put a trap down.
Alisha (30:52):
It's full, there's so many.
Chef James (30:54):
Oh really.
Alisha (31:01):
Unbelievable.
It's not hard to catch.
You can go catch them yourself.
Chef James (31:03):
You've probably seen one on the beach if you've been
tide pooling right anywhere outthere, everywhere, right, well,
and that's a great story to,like you know, educate the front
of the house team with andguests coming in, and I, you
know they, when they hear that,or you know, have a part of even
the culinary team and lettingthem kind of work on things and
you're working with them onbeing creative with it.
(31:24):
I think that's just great Allof it.
Alisha (31:26):
Yeah, I think you know, with the new products, or you
know, I mean, chefs in Europehave been throwing them in their
stocks forever.
You know, it's not like we'renot the first people to eat them
.
We just haven't eaten them inthis country.
Chef James (31:42):
traditionally, you know, chefs are going to really
help lead that innovation.
Well and that is huge, in thekitchen it's fun to get
something.
Alisha (31:49):
To get something both with a great mission to it and
that's also a bit of a new toy.
You might never have workedwith it before, is you know?
It's fun and I think that thatinnovation has really helped
inspire people to eat them andyou know, hopefully inspire the
company that will make the fishsauce and some other things that
will really help get a bigquantity out.
(32:10):
But yeah that's.
We're just kind of going intoour next season now for them.
Chef James (32:16):
Right.
Alisha (32:17):
It's been.
That's been an exciting projectfor us.
And you know we have.
We have many other products.
Global story is something wetruly know we're doing.
Chef James (32:27):
Yep.
Alisha (32:28):
We were excited to be part of that.
It's been an issue that youhave these sustainable
opportunities and the scientistswork on them and many papers
come out and articles come outand do interesting things.
You're asked okay great, I wantto use them.
How do I get them?
The answer is well, nowhere.
Nobody sells them.
Go grab them.
That's not practical.
Which shows us the time to gocatch their own crab yeah
(32:51):
exactly yeah.
Good grief?
No, no, and you know, typicallythey just weren't on anybody's
radar for getting them, so we'rereally happy to provide that
link to the system.
Chef James (33:05):
Yeah Well, and you know, like I've used, for
example, like dogfish you knowI've done that, you know, and
like for fish and chips orsomething you know and just kind
of told that story of just youknow, trying to use a different
type of fish for this dish.
And you know this, it's kind ofa.
(33:27):
It's one of those things wherefishermen kind of find them a
bit of a challenge to workaround.
They kind of get in the way and, you know, at some points they
thought they were becoming alittle bit invasive.
But you know, I think, takingthese opportunities to again get
them on the menu and discuss itwith your teams, like how, like
how can you, how can we usethis and brainstorm it, and then
(33:48):
it becomes a big win foreverybody and it's great.
Alisha (33:51):
Yeah, absolutely, and there are lots of species
underutilized and sometimes noteven that challenging, honestly,
in the kitchen I mean if youknow cod and haddock working
with hake and pollock.
It's not that hard.
Chef James (34:04):
No.
Alisha (34:05):
They're close cousins, right, they handle it a little
bit differently, but it's notthat hard.
No, they're close cousins,right to handle it a little bit
differently, but it's not thathard.
yeah, you know, and making surethat diners know like it might
be harder to sell if peopledon't know hake right they never
heard of it and they don'trealize that it's swimming right
next to the other fish thatthey like and it's a very close
cousin and you know, there'snothing, nothing scary about
(34:25):
trying something new, especiallywhen it's it's really honestly
on the plate, going to be veryfamiliar, something that has
maybe really great culinarypedigree in other places.
I mean lots of European chefslove cake.
They order it specifically.
Chef James (34:41):
Oh, that's great they have monkfish.
Alisha (34:43):
I mean I feel like anyone who's hooked onto a
really traditional French chefor ever cooked in France, loves
monkfish.
And we have tons of it and itgoes underappreciated.
I mean, it's one of my favoritefish and has so much
versatility.
Chef James (34:57):
Right.
Alisha (34:57):
So many like interesting culinary properties, like it's
not falling apart, you can throwit in a braise.
You can really do so much withit.
It stands up to all of that.
Right, but with it, yeah itstands up to all of that, right,
but we just we don't eat nearlyas much of it as we could,
right?
Yeah, you know people don'twant to branch out from tuna,
but yeah, out there I.
Chef James (35:17):
I think that sometimes, though, as a country,
we've been kind of funneled insome ways and been made kind of
comfortable by what all of youprovide like you know, it's like
okay, shrimp salmon, and madekind of comfortable by what all
of you provide Like you know,it's like okay shrimp salmon and
we kind of get caught up inthat.
I mean, it's this expectationof, like you know, this is my
(35:37):
comfort zone or even going intolike produce and getting the
perfect zucchini or whatever,and you know, looking at these
products and going, well, how,how can I try something
different?
You know, other countries havebeen eating dogfish for fish and
chips for generations, butthings are a little bit
different and the texture of theflavor profile might be a
(35:59):
little bit different, but it'sso adaptable, especially when
you have a talented chef thatdoes justice and does it right,
you know, and it hits all ofthat.
Alisha (36:09):
No, absolutely.
Chef James (36:10):
And there's.
Alisha (36:11):
You know, part of what's exciting about seafood is that
diversity I mean a little bitdifferent is a bonus for lots of
people.
You know money's the same thingevery single day.
You know you could eat adifferent dish every single day,
all year.
Chef James (36:24):
Right.
Alisha (36:25):
Really.
I mean, if you know we have, weliterally have that many coming
into our warehouse of alldifferent descriptions
throughout seafood.
And so it can be in the marketa bit of a, you know, bit of a
closed loop.
Right Buyers say, well, peopledon't want this, so they don't
buy it.
There are no options.
No one wants anything butsalmon, so all they buy is
(36:46):
salmon for the grocery store.
And then people go in and theonly one fish that looks good is
salmon, and then they buysalmon.
Chef James (36:52):
Right.
Alisha (36:52):
So not that there's anything wrong with salmon, but
there are a lot more fish, youknow, in sample and try, so it
does become a bit of a loop andI think it takes a little more
courage from buyers and a littlemore willing willingness to
educate right we do.
You know, we bring in um evensmaller quantities that are
(37:13):
harder to manage, or by catch,like we'll work directly with
some fishermen or have somecontacts and they'll be like hey
, we happen to get a little bitof it.
Chef James (37:21):
You know which is huge, because that's by catch
discussion on the menu Really.
Alisha (37:26):
Yeah, and there's so much opportunity there and it
takes a willingness and then thesalespeople have to.
You know, no one calls upasking for that.
Yeah, and you have to go andtalk to them about it, exactly.
Chef James (37:36):
Well, looking at two , it's like you're getting the
bycatch that are.
You know it may come in insmall amounts.
Well, if I'm knowing that, thenmaybe you are putting it in a
seafood cioppino or a seafoodpaella, where it's not like
you're putting four ounces, fiveounces or six ounces.
You're doing a multitude ofdifferent pieces and it's coming
(38:00):
together and you can use thatbycatch.
Once that you know, once you'retold about it and kind of those
those ways where it kind ofshares a place on the dish.
You know, like you said before,yeah, absolutely.
And like.
Alisha (38:12):
Having a flexible attitude to seafood is really,
really where it gets the best.
Honestly, as a chef, you knowit allows you to take advantage
of the happy accidents whensomething really interesting
comes in.
Is it going to be here next?
Week no way to know.
You have to be flexible and jumpon it when it's here, some
(38:35):
things are more consistent, butsome aren't.
There are lots of species thatare really caught and aren't
even intentionally targeted, butthey're caught while fishing
for something else.
Even Atlantic halibut is partof that's why, at certain times
of the year, there's almost noneof it to be had.
(39:05):
You know, the price goes thathigh in the winter, and part of
it is because it's not even atargeted fishery.
It might be something like youknow we're just getting one or
two.
You know that the boat got oneRight.
Chef James (39:17):
And that's it.
Alisha (39:18):
Right.
And so if there aren'tdistributors, you know, and fish
buyers, like wolves, who arewilling to look at doing
something different, or take 50pounds of something which
crosses a very small amount ofsomething, right.
Chef James (39:33):
Oh yeah.
Alisha (39:34):
Then there's no market for it.
Then what happens Then?
You've just wasted somethingthat could have been good food.
You've unnecessarily taken fishout of the ecosystem, which
always seems sad to me.
You know, like you know thatwas.
You know it's a waste ofeveryone's efforts too.
It's a waste of the fishermen'stime if they catch things they
can't sell right, exactly ittakes the sustainability of
(39:56):
everybody's piece of the chaindown right.
Well, you know, and then anotherthing beyond that that we try
to do is really fill the wholefish is another key piece of
sustainability.
I mean, we sell, we sell thecollars we sell.
Most of that ends up.
You know, even in boston a lotof it ends up in in the trash
(40:18):
yeah, because it takes some finebutchery to make it nice, but
we'll sell.
If we bring in a tuna, we'llsell the tuna collar.
Chef James (40:24):
Yeah.
Alisha (40:26):
You know we sell sword chops from the swordfish which
is kind of like the collar.
It's like a tomahawk steakactually once you butcher it
properly and clean it up andit's a phenomenal piece of fish.
But without that extra effortand without that kind of
hands-on commitment to that, itwould go to the trash and in
(40:46):
that nose to tail eating it'sstill at the forefront for a lot
of it.
You know it isn't happening atall, so there's nothing more
sustainable than using the wholeproduct.
Chef James (40:57):
Absolutely.
Yeah, no, that's great.
Alisha (40:59):
And on that side and people love them once they try
them.
We absolutely love them yeahfantastic oh, that's awesome
making ribs or chicken wings orsomething, depending on the size
of the fish, and sometimes theytaste totally just for that
different cut um.
But you know, that's anotherthing that we're doing.
That's kind of an everydaysustainability push, that um,
(41:24):
that not everyone is going theextra mile, because it does.
Chef James (41:27):
It does require, you know, it requires time to put
something properly right andagain educating you know yeah
right, wow, and I, speaking ofeducating, I thought I had seen
too, you guys had done like acaviar tasting.
Alisha (41:46):
We did.
We did a caviar tasting back inthe fall, which was really.
I mean, it was fun oh yeah, itwas a great opportunity to work
with chefs and really, you knowwe went through.
I think we tasted 12 differentvarieties in a row.
And when do you get to taste 12caviar?
Chef James (42:05):
against each other.
Not very often, yeah.
Alisha (42:08):
Yeah, really not.
And of course it's hard to forma real opinion, like how do you
pick a favorite when you tasteone variety and they taste the
second one three months later?
Chef James (42:17):
Yeah, exactly.
Alisha (42:18):
It's not the same experience.
Go through what some of thedifferent species resulted in
and what you're seeing on thelabels, because they can be
pretty confusing.
Honestly, it's like what kindof fish is it?
Things get called by differentnames.
Chef James (42:31):
Oh yeah.
Alisha (42:32):
For our consumption, most things, even if those
varietals are hybrids, becauseif there's one like the
parentage for that sturgeonwould be an endangered species.
You can't bring the caviar,that's only that one variety in
it has to be hybridized so wecan show that it's not permitted
otherwise for import.
(42:53):
Even so, things like that getreally confusing.
Sure, people are confused aboutlike is it endangered, Is it
not?
What aspects of that?
Chef James (43:01):
Yeah.
Alisha (43:03):
I mean the caviar that we're buying in the US, the
smaller kind of subspecies thatare domestic.
Everything else is farmed.
Right and it's farmed aroundthe world, and that's a great
thing, because wild populationsare critically endangered.
That's why there's anincredible amount of
international regulation.
Chef James (43:17):
Yeah, right Wow.
Alisha (43:20):
That was fun to do that and I hope we'll do.
I think we'll probably docaviar again and I think you
know I'd love to see some otherkinds of fun classes.
Chef James (43:28):
That's what I was curious about.
If you provided, yeah.
Alisha (43:32):
Yeah, I mean we haven't done them for the public.
These have been for chefs sofar, although we're partnering
with a restaurant in Cambridge,chef Tracy Chang is doing a
sushi making class with us andtalking through like how to cut
and how to torch, and so we'redoing that in the restaurant.
Chef James (43:48):
Oh, that's great.
Alisha (43:49):
You know, yeah, I think that's going to be really fun
and really hands-on or a littlebit lazy.
If you get intimidated byhands-on, you know there'll be
someone there from therestaurant to help you, but you
know There'll be someone therefrom the restaurant to help you,
but get some of those funlittle tips and tricks that you
get on a restaurant menu andit's so delightful.
You wonder how in the world didthey do that?
(44:09):
Because I look at that piece offish and I can't make it happen
Right.
Helping bridge that gap, yeah,which is that we're looking
forward to.
Yeah, do internal classes too,just to make sure that we know
how to describe things Likerecently we did a five species
oyster casing to really taste.
(44:30):
Every kind of oyster from the USand down the East coast is
pretty much the same species.
So once you know that, you canreally appreciate the
contribution of Marowar.
And then on the West coast youhave, you know, three different
species that are coming in thatare really totally different
from washington or fromcalifornia where they're
cultivated, and then the, thewild belongs, that are actually
(44:52):
not native.
They came from france years andyears ago probably.
And then really something elseentirely if you realize how many
different ways an oyster cantaste.
Chef James (45:05):
Well, that was exciting.
You know I don't want to put inalong the lines of like wine
tasting, but I mean, but you doget like melon and briny and
buttery and I mean you'regetting, you know, some markers
in there where you know some ofthe meat inside is bigger than
some other varieties and youknow, so it's oysters are
(45:26):
unbelievably educating Cucumber,right, I mean.
Alisha (45:30):
Oh, absolutely.
And so I mean it is verysimilar to wine taste thing
because, especially when yourealize that you know that it is
the same species that's nativeand the same species that's
being cultivated from, you know,from down as far as Florida,
all the way up through, you know, canada, prince Edward Island,
(45:50):
is all the same species, kind oflike you might have a Cabernet
grape but depending on how youtreat it and where it is, it can
taste so different.
It really is very much the samething, which is exciting and how
many factors go into changingthat flavor and you know where
it is in the water, how it'scultivated, you know, is it on
(46:11):
the bottom, is it in cages, isit tumbling with the tides, like
there's so many differentpieces that it is.
Yeah, it's another endlesslyfascinating thing and we, like I
said, becca, our shell,shellfish fire, has a she's a
real um especially just finishedan oyster sommelier program.
There's now an oyster masterskill that is doing kind of a
some style of training for sogreat she's moving through that
(46:34):
first cohort.
Okay, I think you know youreally can paste in profiles in
a different way and like, right,be able to pick up and, you
know, as a real specialist, beable to look at an oyster and
tell how it was raised.
I can't do that, but she can.
That's so cool.
Chef James (46:49):
Well, I mean again, it's, it is.
I guess it is like you know thewine tasting and building that
palette of understanding theregion and the waters and you
know, were the waters colderthis season?
Did that play a part?
What is?
What is it that plays a part inthat?
You know, you know kind of likethe terroir of for wine you're.
(47:09):
It's kind of like, okay, whatyou know, how are the oceans,
you know, and the seafloor, howis that all playing a part into
it and into the species itself,you know.
Alisha (47:19):
So no, it really to the no, it really is endless.
Chef James (47:23):
Wow, yep, no, and I love them too.
I just I love getting a hold ofany of those that come in.
So, all right, had a greatconversation, so much
information to take away.
Alisha (47:34):
Thanks, I enjoyed it.
Yeah, no this is all day long.
Chef James (47:38):
I know, I know, I you know again it's funny, even
talking to Monterey Bay Aquarium, sean and I were talking about
that that seafood is like themost diversified protein out
there.
Alisha (47:50):
Really is amazing, yes, how much diversity you can
embrace there.
Chef James (47:55):
Thank you for your time, Alisha, and everything you
guys do at Wulf's Fish.
It's just, it's just excellent,and you know, if you can pass
that forward and thank everyonefor me, you know yeah, no,
absolutely.
Alisha (48:10):
Have you been out to visit us?
No, I have not well, when youhave some time, you know yeah
see where the magic happens.
That'd be great, yeahabsolutely no.
Chef James (48:20):
I would love to get out there sometime.
Just got to get it in the books.
You know, do you want to sharewith the listeners?
You know where they can.
You know like e-commerce andhow they can be a part of this
with you guys and find you.
Alisha (48:32):
Yeah, absolutely, you can go to wulf'sfishcom and we
are, you know, still handcutting that super, freezing it
in-house.
So it makes it a little biteasier to stock up.
We really invested in doingthat and we ship all over the
country.
Chef James (48:48):
Wider variety oh, very cool.
Alisha (48:50):
Yep and interesting things to try on our site.
I think on average we have atleast usually at least 50
different kinds of pieces forsale on the website, versus that
.
You know the counter that mightonly have the three or four for
you.
So it's a fun way to doexperiment, to try, you know,
that exciting fish that you gotat a sushi restaurant and it's
never, ever seen at retail.
(49:11):
There's a good chance that wehave it.
Chef James (49:14):
Oh, that's, that's really cool.
And what was that website again, Wulf's fish com.
There we go.
Thank you, awesome.
Alisha (49:24):
And for for chefs or anyone who really wants to take
a deep dive.
We have a wholesale websitewhich is a Wulf's Fish wholesale
and that, you know, really getsinto a little bit more from a
professional standpoint and moreof the nitty gritty on some of
the products.
So that's kind of.
We keep the two differentresources.
Chef James (49:39):
Awesome.
Okay, well, Alisha, thank youso much for your time and just
your wisdom.
We went through so much amazingknowledge and information.
Again, that's the reason whyWulf's Fish is in business and
has been in business since 1926,hitting that 98-year marker of
(49:59):
excellence.
So thank you all so much.
Thank you, yeah, all right,everyone.
That is a wrap.
You can check us out if youlike that.
Subscribe Also the InstagramChef Massey.
Let's keep it simple, chefMasseycom, have a good one.
Bye for now.
Hey everyone, welcome to Chef Sense.
I'm your host, chef Massey.
Okay, so today on the podcastwe have Alisha from Wulf's Fish.
Thanks for being on.
Thanks for having me Just tokind of go into real quick my
background with connecting withyou guys at Wolf's Fish, which
you guys have such amazingproduct.
(00:34):
It first came through Berkshire, so you know, I know that there
was that merge there and we canprobably talk about that.
But again, phenomenal product,you know, and integrity that you
guys have there, can you gointo your role, I guess,
starting at ground zero of whatyou do there and kind of work
into the history and the visionof Wulf's Fish and maybe even
(00:55):
the merge?
Alisha (00:57):
Sure, so my role with Wolves is I'm the director of
marketing and brand strategy, soI've been in the seafood
industry since 2009.
It's kind of setting up nowAwesome, and actually started
with another company that'sbecome a division of Wolf's,
which is Clean Fish, which isworking with sustainable
(01:17):
producers from around the world,which they're great as well,
yeah, on the import side andthere's so much exciting that's
happening with aquaculture inparticular and just really
interesting things around theworld.
So Wolf's itself has gonethrough, you know, quite a few
different iterations since itwas founded in 1926.
(01:38):
Wolf's was a neighborhood fishmarket located in Brookline and
so that was, you know, really adifferent world of seafood
buying and of you know howpeople were eating seafood, how
people were shopping at localmarkets.
You know it was founded by SamWolf in 1926.
His great nephew.
Chef James (02:00):
Richie Taylor still works at the company.
Alisha (02:00):
So we have, we have continuity.
Richie Richie's in his 70s andcomes in every morning at, I
think, about 3.30 to buy fishstill, I mean, yeah, he's a
committed lifer, that's for sure, and a huge authority on
seafood and buying.
And it's really seen it all forchanges in the industry at this
(02:21):
point.
So in 2016, the company decidedto close the retail location
just because how people shop hadchanged, the neighborhood had
changed, and decided to get intothe wholesale distribution
business.
So, relocated from Brooklinedown to the Fish Pier, merged
with another small companycalled George's Bank that was
(02:41):
doing some wholesaledistribution.
It's actually grown out of somechef relationships.
Max Harvey ran that side of thebusiness and he was a chef
who's worked around Boston for along time.
He worked with Jasper White fora long time and yeah and kind
of built the company first outof supplying Jasper White and
restaurants.
Chef James (02:59):
Which is great.
So like chef-centric.
Alisha (03:02):
Yeah.
Chef James (03:03):
Pretty cool.
Alisha (03:03):
Absolutely.
I mean honestly, honestly, upand down our whole, our whole
masthead of people at everylevel of the company.
There's a lot of them who'vecooked before okay, we have a
lot of kind of former chefs inall aspects.
I mean, even I, I cooked before.
Um, that's awesome so okay,yeah, and so I.
It brings that culinarysensibility to it.
(03:25):
I mean, if you're running awholesale business, your primary
.
I mean your customer is the chef.
So if you understand theirperspective, what they want you
know and what they're lookingfor and why something might be
interesting or not, thatdefinitely helps that
relationship, you know, and itbuilds that.
Chef James (03:41):
Yeah Well, do you think what we're doing?
Well exactly, you know, and itbuilds that.
Yeah Well, do you think whatwe're doing Well exactly.
Do you think that sets you guys, uh Wolf's fish, apart from the
competition, or who's out there?
Alisha (03:52):
I think it does I mean you know, you will find other
former.
You know former chefsthroughout the industry, you
know people hit a place wherethey're like this isn't for me
anymore, right, maybe they'vehad their knees replaced already
and they need a different kindof job.
(04:12):
I've seen them at the industry.
Everyone who's been in thekitchen knows how that happens,
but I think that theconcentration and the real
culinary focus is different forus.
I mean, I think I don't knowthat other companies would have
quite so many people who startedoff in hospitality and cooks
and are passionate cooks at hometoo.
(04:33):
So they really like you know wedon't just get a product on a
spec sheet.
We're going to, you know, we'regoing to do a tasting, we're
going to do a cutting, we'regoing to see what it looks like,
we're going to put it in ourtest kitchen even, and you know,
and really put it through itspaces too.
Chef James (04:47):
Oh, which is great.
It's huge, yeah, yeah.
Alisha (04:50):
No, I mean it's important to be able to tell
chefs that.
So you know we really come toevery product from that side of
things you know.
So sometimes I think we, youknow, we see the opportunities
and things maybe another companydoesn't see.
Because it cooks, we can seewhy it's an exciting ingredient
or why we would want to cookwith that.
Right you know it makes animpression.
Chef James (05:12):
Well, you know, I think any time that you can
connect like that is just huge,you know, and I think it helps
with.
You know, once you build thattrust in the program, it's like
the chefs and everybody's.
Just it almost makes itseamless to a certain extent, I
would imagine.
Alisha (05:28):
It does, and it also, you know, it's allowed us to say
so in 2020,.
We launched our e-commercethrough wolffishcom.
We're actually selling the samefish that we sell to chefs
package.
We decided to super freeze itfor convenience and we're
selling that to home cooks.
And so we, you know, we bringthat same sensibility as well to
(05:49):
what we want to cook at home,what we find accessible, what we
don't find accessible.
you know, and really help bridgethat gap for people, because I
think seafood is probably themost challenging category.
You know, if you're apassionate home cook and you
really want to get your hands onsome good ingredients, you can
order all your specialty grains.
You can get your spices you canmake connections, sometimes
(06:12):
even with local farmers througha market.
But your seafood, you know it'snot that easy to get what you
want.
Chef James (06:17):
Well, it's so diverse.
Alisha (06:20):
Like, yes, so diverse, and it's unfortunately the
market, um.
I mean, the market reflectswhat the american public tends
to eat, and that's salmon,shrimp and tuna right, right
yeah exactly so.
So getting beyond that,depending on where you live too,
can be really challenging.
(06:40):
Do you have a fish marketnearby can?
Can you actually get thatquality?
Can you get more than threespecies?
Maybe four?
Chef James (06:49):
on offer.
Alisha (06:50):
Exactly.
Chef James (06:52):
Well, you know, and that's interesting too because,
I have to say, being here in theBerkshires, being Western Mass,
and you know it's surprisinglyfor many, for many years, it was
hard to get excellent seafood.
You know, I think that we havesome large broad liner vendors
(07:12):
and you know other companieshere that have, you know, that
level of reach of good.
You know seafood, but, comingfrom Canyon Ranch, you know, as
the chef I was really focused onproviding our guests, you know,
with the highest quality Icould get ahold of.
You know, I'm with you guystoday because of that.
(07:33):
It's not easy to to get.
It sounds so silly to you know,I guess, cause I'm coming from
the West coast.
You know, coming in here I'mlike wow, it's.
You know it's only three hoursor you know what have you away
and yeah, but it's.
There really was a challengeand I think, being able to find
someone, and I know that this isgoing into Berkshire, but, you
(07:56):
know, working with Wes Malzonewhen he was owning and operating
that, that part that you guyscurrently have under your
umbrella.
What reached me about that andwhat grabbed me?
There's a couple of things.
One was Wes started his companyand he was so passionate, like
the energy rolled off of him.
And he came in to Canyon Ranchand we started talking about
(08:20):
things and I shared with him mythoughts about trying to find
excellent seafood and, boy, ifhe couldn't, I mean he would
just sell you on.
Just, he is excellence, right.
So one I have to tell you.
One morning he came in, cameinto the kitchen and said, hey,
look, you got to check this out.
I'm like you know, sure, ofcourse he's all excited.
(08:41):
Let's go down to the truck.
I've got it down here in thetruck, you know.
So we went down there, jumpedinto the, to the back of his box
truck and he opened up thecontainer and he was so excited
about how beautiful thesescallops were.
He's like look, jim, I just gotthese.
You know, of course it wasearly in the morning there, so
(09:01):
he opened it up, gave me a youknow, a piece of the scallop
there.
So he opened it up, gave me apiece of the scallop.
He's like you got to try itright now.
And I did and it was just thisdelicate, beautiful piece of the
ocean.
And I think, as a chef, whenpeople get what you're looking
for and you pull from theirenergy and they pull from you.
Man, it's just, it's so awesomebecause you know when that
(09:27):
comes in and it hits the plate,that energy is just going to
continue.
So I just had to share thatpart.
Alisha (09:32):
Oh no, that's fantastic.
I mean, a truly great freshscallop is really one of the
things that can consistentlyblow your socks off.
Really, I mean, that'sdefinitely the kind of thing
that stays in memory.
(09:57):
You know, Wes obviously isstill with the company he
founded Berkshire because he ohyeah back and forth all the time
why is the fish not getting outthere?
And so he saw, you know, he sawthat need and that there's such
wonderful restaurants in theberkshires who really would be
excited to buy the best thatcould get their hands on.
And so he started berkshire tobe bringing seafood five days a
(10:18):
week from boston and picking itup, and so one of the places he
was getting, you know, scallopsand other products was Wolf's
and we're.
Actually he was buying a lotfrom us and then trucking it out
, and so it was a really anatural build on that
relationship.
Chef James (10:34):
As Wolf's was growing.
Alisha (10:36):
We had.
You know you start any smallbusiness and then, of course, at
some point, once you getsuccessful, you have capacity
issues.
You, once you get successful,you have capacity issues.
How many trucks do you have?
How many people can preparethose orders Do you have?
A full team, so that you'rereally, really getting the best
every single time, Going to thefront of the line when that new
tuna comes in, you can getpretty competitive.
Chef James (10:57):
Oh yeah, I'm sure.
Alisha (10:58):
Because there isn't always an excess of perfect
product in the market.
So it made sense for Wes andhis customers to join Wolf and
it made sense for Wolf to expandour capacity beyond the Metro
Boston area with our trucks andsay, hey, we can just do this
together with very few changes.
(11:20):
And he was only buying smallamounts of product from other
places.
It wasn't really a huge changeto just work exclusively through
Wolf's and merge the two teams.
And I think it's been verysuccessful.
Chef James (11:31):
Well, I'd have to say, you know, looking at you
know I know you said 90 yearsand we went right into the
backstory of the company.
But I mean, that's maybe it'spun intended, I guess, but like
you've weathered a lot of stormsand you're still going strong
and leading the way in many ways.
Alisha (11:51):
Absolutely no.
I mean, it's a long time forany business to survive.
We're coming up to 98 years nowfor any business, especially in
food to go 98 years and stillbe independently owned.
We are not part of a largercorporation with corporate
mandate.
Part of why we can have thebest products is we get to do
(12:11):
what we want.
We're a company of obsessivesfor quality and there's no
mandate.
It hasn't sold, like manycompanies have, to a larger
corporate entity that then start, as they do, cutting corners,
saying, well, this fabulousthing you're doing isn't that
profitable.
You know, as they do cuttingcorners, you know saying, well,
this fabulous thing you're doingisn't that profitable, Maybe
you should stop.
But we don't have that.
You know we're able to stillkeep our vision and be the kind
(12:33):
of company we want to be and.
I think that you know has been areal strength.
I mean you need a teamcommitted, you know, to make
that happen from from ownershipall the way down, and we do that
.
We've been able to, you know,expand with the addition of
Berkshire.
We also ship seafood, you know,around the country.
You know, there are chefs inother markets in Nashville, in
Charleston, south Carolina outin.
(12:54):
Arizona even.
Chef James (12:56):
Yeah.
Alisha (12:56):
Especially somewhere like Arizona, like they don't
have a pipeline to.
Chef James (13:00):
No, no, and that's Coming in from the water.
It's hard.
Yeah, a lot of that's comingthrough lax and stuff.
I mean I actually was chefingin arizona as well, so it's very
hard yeah there is, I meanthere is la in that pipeline.
Alisha (13:14):
If you want east coast specialties, right, um, then
it's a little bit harder yeah,the coast certainly hold their
specialties separate.
I was in california for a longtime too, so I know how okay oh
cool.
The West Coast loves certainfish that the East Coast doesn't
care about, and vice versa.
So you know if you're out Westand you want to bring, you know,
east Coast oysters or somethingyou're going to, you might
(13:36):
struggle a little bit moregetting those, those particular
varieties.
Yeah, we've expanded to youknow, to be able to do that when
there's demand shipped to othermarkets.
We started our e-commerce for2020, like I said, you know,
during the pandemic, as many did, but we were fortunately
already thinking pretty quicklyand really were committed to
(14:03):
staying the course, becausethat's a whole other business
entirely.
But, you know, but we'recommitted to it and feel like it
also fills a really interestingniche.
You know, I think it's excitingfor us to be able to distribute
throughout the state Most ofthe seafood distributors in
Boston.
Worcester is kind of the end ofthe world.
(14:23):
They don't go past it Right,like you know anything further
than that.
Chef James (14:29):
Well, and that you know.
That's the thing too.
I mean.
So, looking at like thecommitment to excellence, like
quality and sourcing and vetting, how does that process look for
you guys?
Sharing it with some of ourlisteners?
Alisha (14:41):
Sure, it's really.
I mean, one of the amazingthings about seafood and why
it's exciting to work in theindustry is the incredible
diversity.
I've never worked in chicken,but I imagine, if you do, it's
just chicken.
There's some varieties, butthey're not really in the market
, Whereas seafood we're going tohave hundreds of different
(15:03):
products coming through ourwarehouse every day, Like not
dozens, literal hundreds, and soeach one of those represents a
different relationship and adifferent relationship for the
buyer and they all come indifferently, even through local
species.
You know even differentdistributors.
You might have offload permitsfor one kind of fish but not
another kind of fish.
(15:24):
There's both.
Yeah, I, I mean it's highlyregulated.
So like, for example, weoffload, we direct offload,
black sea bass in the summer onthe cape, and that's a
particular relationship thatwe're licensed for.
There might be another kind offish, like tuna.
Those are different licenses.
So then we partner with thatperson and have those strong
relationships to work withsomebody you know, work with
(15:47):
somebody who is exclusively atuna buyer, and some of that is
just about our longevity.
On the pier I said Richie Taylor, who you know.
He started working at hisfamily's fish market after he
graduated college in the 70s andjust decided to do anything
else.
He liked it there and stayed,and so he knows everyone.
I mean you know, and so doesyou know, Max Harvey, who came
(16:10):
from you know, the one whochefed at George's Bank.
He also knows a lot of people.
There's a lot that's aboutrelationships in the business
Bala, which many people follow.
he was kind of our head ofquality and also really, really
in charge of buying the bigcharges, buying the big fish,
the tuna sword, like that's hisparticular specialty okay, he
was some people know him becausehe's on.
(16:31):
He was on instagram, was veryactive.
I think he had like 70 000followers cut fish he doesn't
post as much anymore but becausehe's just so good at it and so
he has relationships particularto those fish.
Okay.
And that's how specialized theycan get Becca, who's our new
head of procurement?
(16:51):
She's a shellfish specialist,so she has particular
relationships with oyster farms.
Chef James (16:56):
Okay, it's one of her real strengths.
Alisha (16:58):
And so I mean the buying is so complicated every day.
Yeah, Four people who areactively buying every single day
, because it is hundreds ofspecies.
Chef James (17:08):
And you're doing it, you're just flipping.
There's so much coming in.
Alisha (17:11):
Yeah, and it's so much, and it's so fast.
Chef James (17:14):
Yes.
Alisha (17:14):
Everything has to move fast.
Yes, if you take the fish outof water, the timer starts to
tick.
Chef James (17:19):
Well, and that's what I loved about it.
Alisha (17:21):
Everything has to move so quickly.
Chef James (17:23):
Yeah, Well, because it just you know, what I noticed
was the turnaround is so quickfrom placing the order with you
guys that literally the productyou're getting, it's just
outstanding, that turnaroundtime.
Alisha (17:37):
It is amazing.
Some of that is part of therisk of the seafood business.
Chef James (17:41):
I mean based on.
Alisha (17:42):
You know when Bala is out buying tuna at 3.30 in the
morning, you know, and he's gota guy and his contacts know that
we'll only buy.
We'll only buy the top grade.
It's like A1s, you can get 1sand 2s and there's a whole
complicated system of how thosebig fish get graded.
Chef James (18:01):
There's a grading system.
Alisha (18:02):
We only buy the top one so you those big fish get graded
the grading system.
You only buy the top one.
So you know he's got a guy andthey'll put the top ones aside
and make those decisions.
But at tree 30 he had to guesswhat kind of tuna the market's
gonna like.
How many chefs are gonna want ityou know when it's really good,
then he knows well, it's thathot, they're gonna everybody's
gonna want it and we'll postabout it and sometimes I think
we sell it on instagram honestly, like we'll post a line that's
(18:23):
so beautiful.
Chef James (18:23):
Yeah.
The chefs are literally ontheir phone right now trying to
get a piece of it, and that'shard too.
Alisha (18:30):
A lot of it is speculation that way, like we
have to guess a little bit.
Chef James (18:34):
Okay, well, yeah, and that just and again, looking
at that window of time, is itreally is short, I mean, and not
you know, and on top of this,looking at like traceability and
sustainability and all of that,you know how, is the vision for
you guys.
Alisha (18:52):
You know, withholding that up, I mean everything that
we.
The points of traceability,honestly they it's always
visible.
Not everyone's invested inbeing accountable for that.
I mean we know where a fishcomes from, it has to have
paperwork.
It says where it comes from.
I think there are people in thebusiness at various stages,
particularly the distributorlevel, unfortunately.
(19:14):
But honestly, down to therestaurant, they don't
necessarily give the rightanswer, even if it's in front of
them, because it's not whatthey want, they might say
something is a different.
You know, it happens with adifferent species, or like tuna
point the chef orders a numberone and someone says yeah, yeah,
yeah, it's a number one, not anumber one Like it's a number
two.
So there's, you know, there's alot of accountability in the
(19:35):
system and it really comes downto the integrity.
It's not mysterious when peoplesay you can't know.
That's not true.
Chef James (19:42):
Yeah, yeah, and you guys have that.
You have that integrity, andobviously that's why you've been
around for 98 years.
So, wow, that's amazing.
Alisha (19:52):
Yeah, we're proud of how we source.
We don't feel the need to adaptto anything because we're
already sourcing products thatwe feel really good about.
So no incentive at all to tellsomething else, and that's
honestly a big part of onceyou've established yourself as
that kind of company.
That's why people come backright you know, as a chef, if
(20:13):
you order, you know you ordernumber one soon and you keep
getting number two.
You're gonna stop calling right,right because that's not what
you asked for yeah, yeah youknow, and if you always get
exactly what you asked for, oryou know like you're looking for
those perfect scallops and youget them and they're perfect
every time, then you're going tokeep coming back and that kind
(20:33):
of trust is what so much of whatthe business is built on.
Chef James (20:37):
Well, and it's so fast yeah, yeah.
No, it is huge and it is hardand that's extra work, you know,
involved with that, you know,for educating the, the chef or
the buyer.
But you know I know, like I haveto say too, it was great
because being a part of you knowCanyon Ranch and our philosophy
and again, and I carry, I carrythat philosophy as a chef
(20:59):
period, the big piece to what wewere building there.
You know being a part of theMonterey Bay Seafood Watch and
then also, you know followingthe global or the GSA or Global
Seafood Alliance with our BAPscoring system.
You know being able to havesomebody with integrity, like
(21:20):
you guys.
You know it's my job to be thevisionary and kind of like the
vetter myself.
It's my job to kind of policethat and make sure that what's
coming in is a part of my vision, a part of the.
You know the company's visionand you guys have always
(21:41):
provided that if there werethings that came up or maybe
suggestions or their grading hadchanged and you know gone from
best choice and slipped, and tobe able to look at alternatives
and work with you guys throughthat commitment on our side as a
chef has always beenoutstanding.
Alisha (22:02):
Thank you.
I mean that's that's reallygreat to hear and that's
definitely what.
What we want to do to reallyhelp especially to the issue of
sustainability and how we lookat that and honestly, it can
mean different things todifferent people.
There are so many aspects ofhow something is produced that
you know we try to work with thecustomer to help fulfill their
(22:23):
vision.
You know, for some people thatmight be sourcing only local
products and that's what'simportant to them and they want
to, you know, really pursue justlocal products because it's
sustaining the local market.
They feel strongly about thosespecies.
For some, it's about, you know,it's about certification or
some of the exciting productsthat are happening in
(22:43):
aquaculture, which is a lot.
I mean there's incredibleinnovation in that sector and
people really I mean reallypushing the envelope on how we
can sustainably raise food.
Chef James (22:56):
And that's.
Alisha (22:56):
I mean, honestly, that's a part of the business that I
get excited about, because wildfood is a finite resource.
I mean it's great, but there'snot going to be more of it,
honestly, like it's just evennow, there, now, there.
You know there's a scarcity inthe market for many products
that there wasn't years ago andit's only going to get more
complicated with climate change.
There's already species thatare on the move what was the?
(23:19):
local fish years ago.
It's not necessarily local.
It might be on its way tocanada.
Now it's like it's just movingfurther away and even further
South they're getting spottedand caught off the coast of
Massachusetts now.
And we just never would haveseen them before you know, and
that's evolving and it's onlygoing to keep evolving.
You know the fish the fishdon't know where they're
(23:39):
supposed to be.
They're going to say like well,it's so interesting.
Getting warmer, they're goingto keep moving to colder water.
Chef James (23:46):
Well, and that's a thing like I, you know, there
were moments where you knowyou'd get a heads up like, hey,
you know, we, we can get aholdof Mahi because they're starting
to head up this way.
Um wasn't all the time, but itwas like, wow, you can, you know
, just to know that's happening.
You're like, of course I'lltake it.
It's just interesting how that.
You know how that shifts.
Alisha (24:06):
Yeah, I mean it's really shifting a lot and it's
shifting all the time.
The Gulf of Maine, whichstretches well, it has Maine in
the name.
It's not just Maine, it'sreally up from kind of Maritimes
Canada down through Cape Codand that is the fastest warming
body of water, one of thefastest warming body of water on
Earth.
(24:26):
So we're gonna see a lot ofchanges locally.
You know we're definitelyalready seeing them.
Chef James (24:31):
Wow.
Alisha (24:31):
When I was a kid, there was a lot more lobster fishing
from Massachusetts, Rhode Island.
Like we're not getting lobsterfrom Rhode Island anymore,
You're not, Like it's all movednorth.
Yeah, and it's, you know.
So I think we're both in theindustry and, as you know, and
as really conscious eaters andas chefs, we're going to have to
really pay attention and adaptand some of it might be exciting
(24:53):
like mahi.
Some of it might be a species wewanted that just isn't around
anymore, and there might bedisappointment.
I mean, I think it's reallygoing to be.
It'll be a mixed bag, but we'regoing to have to keep adapting
our ideas of what a localproduct is, even, and what we
want to champion and helpeducate diners about.
Something like lobster andscallop prices that have gone up
(25:15):
dramatically, in part asmanagement and part is climate
change and availability.
It's not necessarily comingback.
Chef James (25:23):
Yeah, exactly, I mean do you have anything like
on the website where it would belike chef or consumer education
sections.
Alisha (25:33):
For consumers particularly, and for some of
our like what we consider ourportfolio product wholesale,
which are really products we'rereally excited about and have
really particular sustainabilitystory.
Those all have dedicatedsections on our website okay,
let's talk about, you know, likefrom the wholesale side, all
our portfolio products.
It'll talk about why thisproduct, you know what kind of
(25:54):
sustainability story is behindit, why we feel that you know
this version of this productlike is a particular strength is
a great choice and like whywe're excited about that and on
the our e-commerce side, thewolffishcom site, than that
there's product details yeah,which is great to know um, yeah,
it doesn't always go too deeplyinto something just because you
(26:17):
know it's always hard to gaugehow much explanation people
really want.
Sure, it is changing and so wehave, I mean, as far as a
sustainability initiative thatI'm really excited about.
I actually got so excited aboutthis.
I joined the board ofGreenCraborg.
It's GreenCrab.
This is a it's a climate changestory.
It's a sustainability story.
It's an invasive species story.
Chef James (26:39):
I mean not cool, but you know what I mean Something
to help.
Alisha (26:41):
Yeah, it's cool that we're going to try to.
I mean, we've had them.
We've been offering green crabsfor two years now and was the
only distributor to step up anddo that.
I mean, honestly, no one'sgetting rich off green crabs.
This is the sustainabilityinitiative.
You know we, you know thefisherman gets some, we get some
, but it's not.
You know, it's not like it's agiant money maker, which
(27:02):
explains why other distributorsdidn't want to lean on it.
You'd have to educate people.
Some people said no one's evergoing to eat those.
But honestly, there'sabsolutely no reason why.
I mean, green crabs are inNorth America.
They're an invasive species.
They're from Europe originally.
They came probably in theballast of ships in the 19th
(27:22):
century and so they've been here.
But our big control againsttheir populations was really
cold winters wow you know youneed a hard, hard freeze for
some days.
Wow, we don't really have that.
I mean, I remember even when Iwas a kid, after this mild
winter, thinking like gosh iceskating outside was a childhood
(27:44):
pastime.
That was one of those like.
Your mother's wish was like goskate outside, go to the pond,
get out there, and it was alwaysfrozen all winter.
So that was enough.
Nothing freezes like thatanymore.
So, and that's I grew upactually in the marshy areas on
the North Shore where we'rebuying our green crabs from.
(28:05):
So, nothing is killing them.
The populations have explodedand one green crab can eat 40
juvenile clams in a day.
So when you look at theirvoracious predators, nothing is
you know and they have verylittle competition out there so
they're eating clams, mussels,oysters.
(28:25):
I mean there are huge problemsconstantly around oyster farms,
you know, trying to get into thecages, trying to eat the young
oysters you know, so all theshellfish that is really native
here and that we want to eat issomething being threatened by
green crabs.
They compete with native crabsand lobster.
They eat eelgrass with theirlittle claws, which is eelgrass'
(28:47):
critical habitat the nursery.
Other crustaceans need it andthey're mowing it down.
Wow so anything that we can doto get them out of the water.
And they are edible.
They are small but they makeamazing stock.
Okay, we've had seen chefs andreally think of them as an
ingredient more than as aprotein source.
Okay, yeah, you can't get thethe mean out, but it's a lot of
(29:08):
work.
Yeah, you know we don't, weknow that's not going to work in
most people's kitchen, um, butthey have so much flavor there's
no reason for us not to takethem out.
And you know you're reallygetting great utilization if you
make a bisque like a, like aboyabaisse, is that yeah?
Absolutely okay.
Yeah, they'll make great stockfor that.
(29:30):
I've even used it with likemaking a mushroom risotto with a
crab stock oh, very cool awonderful way to get the flavor.
Yeah, that was delicious.
Um, we see chefs infuse theminto the butter.
They're roasting the crabs,infusing them into butter
straining that off and thenusing that on shellfish very
nice so I think they're reallyat the very beginning stages of
innovation, and some chefs havetried and fusing them into
(29:51):
butter, straining that off andthen using that on shellfish,
Very nice.
So I think they're really at thevery beginning stages of
innovation and some chefs havetried fermenting them, If you
have a place where you canferment and make your own fish
sauce.
That's possible.
Oh, that's really cool.
I think there's a lot of uses.
Chef James (30:00):
Yeah.
Alisha (30:01):
I think we haven't even scratched the surface.
I think of all the fun thingsyou can do, but we have chefs
all over now who are using this,and even actually I've just
been doing some work with SmithCollege is going to put them on
a lunch menu in a couple ofweeks for Earth Day.
So even in a big setting youcan make a difference.
So I'm yeah, I'm really excitedabout that and I think that's
(30:22):
one of our our greatsustainability stories.
And then you know that we feelreally good about like I.
Then you know that we feelreally good about, like I said,
you know it's a small piece ofbusiness, but we've been able to
, you know, really help provideextra income for the clam.
You know, all the clam arethere.
That's green crabs.
Anyone who's shellfish is,because it's literally eating
their business, so he's morethan happy to trap the crabs for
(30:43):
us.
Chef James (30:44):
Wow, well, and that's a great story, you know
we're selling them because youunlike most things, you better
put a trap down.
Alisha (30:52):
It's full, there's so many.
Chef James (30:54):
Oh really.
Alisha (31:01):
Unbelievable.
It's not hard to catch.
You can go catch them yourself.
Chef James (31:03):
You've probably seen one on the beach if you've been
tide pooling right anywhere outthere, everywhere, right, well,
and that's a great story to,like you know, educate the front
of the house team with andguests coming in, and I, you
know they, when they hear that,or you know, have a part of even
the culinary team and lettingthem kind of work on things and
you're working with them onbeing creative with it.
(31:24):
I think that's just great Allof it.
Alisha (31:26):
Yeah, I think you know, with the new products, or you
know, I mean, chefs in Europehave been throwing them in their
stocks forever.
You know, it's not like we'renot the first people to eat them
.
We just haven't eaten them inthis country.
Chef James (31:42):
traditionally, you know, chefs are going to really
help lead that innovation.
Well and that is huge, in thekitchen it's fun to get
something.
Alisha (31:49):
To get something both with a great mission to it and
that's also a bit of a new toy.
You might never have workedwith it before, is you know?
It's fun and I think that thatinnovation has really helped
inspire people to eat them andyou know, hopefully inspire the
company that will make the fishsauce and some other things that
will really help get a bigquantity out.
(32:10):
But yeah that's.
We're just kind of going intoour next season now for them.
Chef James (32:16):
Right.
Alisha (32:17):
It's been.
That's been an exciting projectfor us.
And you know we have.
We have many other products.
Global story is something wetruly know we're doing.
Chef James (32:27):
Yep.
Alisha (32:28):
We were excited to be part of that.
It's been an issue that youhave these sustainable
opportunities and the scientistswork on them and many papers
come out and articles come outand do interesting things.
You're asked okay great, I wantto use them.
How do I get them?
The answer is well, nowhere.
Nobody sells them.
Go grab them.
That's not practical.
Which shows us the time to gocatch their own crab yeah
(32:51):
exactly yeah.
Good grief?
No, no, and you know, typicallythey just weren't on anybody's
radar for getting them, so we'rereally happy to provide that
link to the system.
Chef James (33:05):
Yeah Well, and you know, like I've used, for
example, like dogfish you knowI've done that, you know, and
like for fish and chips orsomething you know and just kind
of told that story of just youknow, trying to use a different
type of fish for this dish.
And you know this, it's kind ofa.
(33:27):
It's one of those things wherefishermen kind of find them a
bit of a challenge to workaround.
They kind of get in the way and, you know, at some points they
thought they were becoming alittle bit invasive.
But you know, I think, takingthese opportunities to again get
them on the menu and discuss itwith your teams, like how, like
how can you, how can we usethis and brainstorm it, and then
(33:48):
it becomes a big win foreverybody and it's great.
Alisha (33:51):
Yeah, absolutely, and there are lots of species
underutilized and sometimes noteven that challenging, honestly,
in the kitchen I mean if youknow cod and haddock working
with hake and pollock.
It's not that hard.
Chef James (34:04):
No.
Alisha (34:05):
They're close cousins, right, they handle it a little
bit differently, but it's notthat hard.
No, they're close cousins,right to handle it a little bit
differently, but it's not thathard.
yeah, you know, and making surethat diners know like it might
be harder to sell if peopledon't know hake right they never
heard of it and they don'trealize that it's swimming right
next to the other fish thatthey like and it's a very close
cousin and you know, there'snothing, nothing scary about
(34:25):
trying something new, especiallywhen it's it's really honestly
on the plate, going to be veryfamiliar, something that has
maybe really great culinarypedigree in other places.
I mean lots of European chefslove cake.
They order it specifically.
Chef James (34:41):
Oh, that's great they have monkfish.
Alisha (34:43):
I mean I feel like anyone who's hooked onto a
really traditional French chefor ever cooked in France, loves
monkfish.
And we have tons of it and itgoes underappreciated.
I mean, it's one of my favoritefish and has so much
versatility.
Chef James (34:57):
Right.
Alisha (34:57):
So many like interesting culinary properties, like it's
not falling apart, you can throwit in a braise.
You can really do so much withit.
It stands up to all of that.
Right, but with it, yeah itstands up to all of that, right,
but we just we don't eat nearlyas much of it as we could,
right?
Yeah, you know people don'twant to branch out from tuna,
but yeah, out there I.
Chef James (35:17):
I think that sometimes, though, as a country,
we've been kind of funneled insome ways and been made kind of
comfortable by what all of youprovide like you know, it's like
okay, shrimp salmon, and madekind of comfortable by what all
of you provide Like you know,it's like okay shrimp salmon and
we kind of get caught up inthat.
I mean, it's this expectationof, like you know, this is my
(35:37):
comfort zone or even going intolike produce and getting the
perfect zucchini or whatever,and you know, looking at these
products and going, well, how,how can I try something
different?
You know, other countries havebeen eating dogfish for fish and
chips for generations, butthings are a little bit
different and the texture of theflavor profile might be a
(35:59):
little bit different, but it'sso adaptable, especially when
you have a talented chef thatdoes justice and does it right,
you know, and it hits all ofthat.
Alisha (36:09):
No, absolutely.
Chef James (36:10):
And there's.
Alisha (36:11):
You know, part of what's exciting about seafood is that
diversity I mean a little bitdifferent is a bonus for lots of
people.
You know money's the same thingevery single day.
You know you could eat adifferent dish every single day,
all year.
Chef James (36:24):
Right.
Alisha (36:25):
Really.
I mean, if you know we have, weliterally have that many coming
into our warehouse of alldifferent descriptions
throughout seafood.
And so it can be in the marketa bit of a, you know, bit of a
closed loop.
Right Buyers say, well, peopledon't want this, so they don't
buy it.
There are no options.
No one wants anything butsalmon, so all they buy is
(36:46):
salmon for the grocery store.
And then people go in and theonly one fish that looks good is
salmon, and then they buysalmon.
Chef James (36:52):
Right.
Alisha (36:52):
So not that there's anything wrong with salmon, but
there are a lot more fish, youknow, in sample and try, so it
does become a bit of a loop andI think it takes a little more
courage from buyers and a littlemore willing willingness to
educate right we do.
You know, we bring in um evensmaller quantities that are
(37:13):
harder to manage, or by catch,like we'll work directly with
some fishermen or have somecontacts and they'll be like hey
, we happen to get a little bitof it.
Chef James (37:21):
You know which is huge, because that's by catch
discussion on the menu Really.
Alisha (37:26):
Yeah, and there's so much opportunity there and it
takes a willingness and then thesalespeople have to.
You know, no one calls upasking for that.
Yeah, and you have to go andtalk to them about it, exactly.
Chef James (37:36):
Well, looking at two , it's like you're getting the
bycatch that are.
You know it may come in insmall amounts.
Well, if I'm knowing that, thenmaybe you are putting it in a
seafood cioppino or a seafoodpaella, where it's not like
you're putting four ounces, fiveounces or six ounces.
You're doing a multitude ofdifferent pieces and it's coming
(38:00):
together and you can use thatbycatch.
Once that you know, once you'retold about it and kind of those
those ways where it kind ofshares a place on the dish.
You know, like you said before,yeah, absolutely.
And like.
Alisha (38:12):
Having a flexible attitude to seafood is really,
really where it gets the best.
Honestly, as a chef, you knowit allows you to take advantage
of the happy accidents whensomething really interesting
comes in.
Is it going to be here next?
Week no way to know.
You have to be flexible and jumpon it when it's here, some
(38:35):
things are more consistent, butsome aren't.
There are lots of species thatare really caught and aren't
even intentionally targeted, butthey're caught while fishing
for something else.
Even Atlantic halibut is partof that's why, at certain times
of the year, there's almost noneof it to be had.
(39:05):
You know, the price goes thathigh in the winter, and part of
it is because it's not even atargeted fishery.
It might be something like youknow we're just getting one or
two.
You know that the boat got oneRight.
Chef James (39:17):
And that's it.
Alisha (39:18):
Right.
And so if there aren'tdistributors, you know, and fish
buyers, like wolves, who arewilling to look at doing
something different, or take 50pounds of something which
crosses a very small amount ofsomething, right.
Chef James (39:33):
Oh yeah.
Alisha (39:34):
Then there's no market for it.
Then what happens Then?
You've just wasted somethingthat could have been good food.
You've unnecessarily taken fishout of the ecosystem, which
always seems sad to me.
You know, like you know thatwas.
You know it's a waste ofeveryone's efforts too.
It's a waste of the fishermen'stime if they catch things they
can't sell right, exactly ittakes the sustainability of
(39:56):
everybody's piece of the chaindown right.
Well, you know, and then anotherthing beyond that that we try
to do is really fill the wholefish is another key piece of
sustainability.
I mean, we sell, we sell thecollars we sell.
Most of that ends up.
You know, even in boston a lotof it ends up in in the trash
(40:18):
yeah, because it takes some finebutchery to make it nice, but
we'll sell.
If we bring in a tuna, we'llsell the tuna collar.
Chef James (40:24):
Yeah.
Alisha (40:26):
You know we sell sword chops from the swordfish which
is kind of like the collar.
It's like a tomahawk steakactually once you butcher it
properly and clean it up andit's a phenomenal piece of fish.
But without that extra effortand without that kind of
hands-on commitment to that, itwould go to the trash and in
(40:46):
that nose to tail eating it'sstill at the forefront for a lot
of it.
You know it isn't happening atall, so there's nothing more
sustainable than using the wholeproduct.
Chef James (40:57):
Absolutely.
Yeah, no, that's great.
Alisha (40:59):
And on that side and people love them once they try
them.
We absolutely love them yeahfantastic oh, that's awesome
making ribs or chicken wings orsomething, depending on the size
of the fish, and sometimes theytaste totally just for that
different cut um.
But you know, that's anotherthing that we're doing.
That's kind of an everydaysustainability push, that um,
(41:24):
that not everyone is going theextra mile, because it does.
Chef James (41:27):
It does require, you know, it requires time to put
something properly right andagain educating you know yeah
right, wow, and I, speaking ofeducating, I thought I had seen
too, you guys had done like acaviar tasting.
Alisha (41:46):
We did.
We did a caviar tasting back inthe fall, which was really.
I mean, it was fun oh yeah, itwas a great opportunity to work
with chefs and really, you knowwe went through.
I think we tasted 12 differentvarieties in a row.
And when do you get to taste 12caviar?
Chef James (42:05):
against each other.
Not very often, yeah.
Alisha (42:08):
Yeah, really not.
And of course it's hard to forma real opinion, like how do you
pick a favorite when you tasteone variety and they taste the
second one three months later?
Chef James (42:17):
Yeah, exactly.
Alisha (42:18):
It's not the same experience.
Go through what some of thedifferent species resulted in
and what you're seeing on thelabels, because they can be
pretty confusing.
Honestly, it's like what kindof fish is it?
Things get called by differentnames.
Chef James (42:31):
Oh yeah.
Alisha (42:32):
For our consumption, most things, even if those
varietals are hybrids, becauseif there's one like the
parentage for that sturgeonwould be an endangered species.
You can't bring the caviar,that's only that one variety in
it has to be hybridized so wecan show that it's not permitted
otherwise for import.
(42:53):
Even so, things like that getreally confusing.
Sure, people are confused aboutlike is it endangered, Is it
not?
What aspects of that?
Chef James (43:01):
Yeah.
Alisha (43:03):
I mean the caviar that we're buying in the US, the
smaller kind of subspecies thatare domestic.
Everything else is farmed.
Right and it's farmed aroundthe world, and that's a great
thing, because wild populationsare critically endangered.
That's why there's anincredible amount of
international regulation.
Chef James (43:17):
Yeah, right Wow.
Alisha (43:20):
That was fun to do that and I hope we'll do.
I think we'll probably docaviar again and I think you
know I'd love to see some otherkinds of fun classes.
Chef James (43:28):
That's what I was curious about.
If you provided, yeah.
Alisha (43:32):
Yeah, I mean we haven't done them for the public.
These have been for chefs sofar, although we're partnering
with a restaurant in Cambridge,chef Tracy Chang is doing a
sushi making class with us andtalking through like how to cut
and how to torch, and so we'redoing that in the restaurant.
Chef James (43:48):
Oh, that's great.
Alisha (43:49):
You know, yeah, I think that's going to be really fun
and really hands-on or a littlebit lazy.
If you get intimidated byhands-on, you know there'll be
someone there from therestaurant to help you, but you
know There'll be someone therefrom the restaurant to help you,
but get some of those funlittle tips and tricks that you
get on a restaurant menu andit's so delightful.
You wonder how in the world didthey do that?
(44:09):
Because I look at that piece offish and I can't make it happen
Right.
Helping bridge that gap, yeah,which is that we're looking
forward to.
Yeah, do internal classes too,just to make sure that we know
how to describe things Likerecently we did a five species
oyster casing to really taste.
(44:30):
Every kind of oyster from the USand down the East coast is
pretty much the same species.
So once you know that, you canreally appreciate the
contribution of Marowar.
And then on the West coast youhave, you know, three different
species that are coming in thatare really totally different
from washington or fromcalifornia where they're
cultivated, and then the, thewild belongs, that are actually
(44:52):
not native.
They came from france years andyears ago probably.
And then really something elseentirely if you realize how many
different ways an oyster cantaste.
Chef James (45:05):
Well, that was exciting.
You know I don't want to put inalong the lines of like wine
tasting, but I mean, but you doget like melon and briny and
buttery and I mean you'regetting, you know, some markers
in there where you know some ofthe meat inside is bigger than
some other varieties and youknow, so it's oysters are
(45:26):
unbelievably educating Cucumber,right, I mean.
Alisha (45:30):
Oh, absolutely.
And so I mean it is verysimilar to wine taste thing
because, especially when yourealize that you know that it is
the same species that's nativeand the same species that's
being cultivated from, you know,from down as far as Florida,
all the way up through, you know, canada, prince Edward Island,
(45:50):
is all the same species, kind oflike you might have a Cabernet
grape but depending on how youtreat it and where it is, it can
taste so different.
It really is very much the samething, which is exciting and how
many factors go into changingthat flavor and you know where
it is in the water, how it'scultivated, you know, is it on
(46:11):
the bottom, is it in cages, isit tumbling with the tides, like
there's so many differentpieces that it is.
Yeah, it's another endlesslyfascinating thing and we, like I
said, becca, our shell,shellfish fire, has a she's a
real um especially just finishedan oyster sommelier program.
There's now an oyster masterskill that is doing kind of a
some style of training for sogreat she's moving through that
(46:34):
first cohort.
Okay, I think you know youreally can paste in profiles in
a different way and like, right,be able to pick up and, you
know, as a real specialist, beable to look at an oyster and
tell how it was raised.
I can't do that, but she can.
That's so cool.
Chef James (46:49):
Well, I mean again, it's, it is.
I guess it is like you know thewine tasting and building that
palette of understanding theregion and the waters and you
know, were the waters colderthis season?
Did that play a part?
What is?
What is it that plays a part inthat?
You know, you know kind of likethe terroir of for wine you're.
(47:09):
It's kind of like, okay, whatyou know, how are the oceans,
you know, and the seafloor, howis that all playing a part into
it and into the species itself,you know.
Alisha (47:19):
So no, it really to the no, it really is endless.
Chef James (47:23):
Wow, yep, no, and I love them too.
I just I love getting a hold ofany of those that come in.
So, all right, had a greatconversation, so much
information to take away.
Alisha (47:34):
Thanks, I enjoyed it.
Yeah, no this is all day long.
Chef James (47:38):
I know, I know, I you know again it's funny, even
talking to Monterey Bay Aquarium, sean and I were talking about
that that seafood is like themost diversified protein out
there.
Alisha (47:50):
Really is amazing, yes, how much diversity you can
embrace there.
Chef James (47:55):
Thank you for your time, Alisha, and everything you
guys do at Wulf's Fish.
It's just, it's just excellent,and you know, if you can pass
that forward and thank everyonefor me, you know yeah, no,
absolutely.
Alisha (48:10):
Have you been out to visit us?
No, I have not well, when youhave some time, you know yeah
see where the magic happens.
That'd be great, yeahabsolutely no.
Chef James (48:20):
I would love to get out there sometime.
Just got to get it in the books.
You know, do you want to sharewith the listeners?
You know where they can.
You know like e-commerce andhow they can be a part of this
with you guys and find you.
Alisha (48:32):
Yeah, absolutely, you can go to wulf'sfishcom and we
are, you know, still handcutting that super, freezing it
in-house.
So it makes it a little biteasier to stock up.
We really invested in doingthat and we ship all over the
country.
Chef James (48:48):
Wider variety oh, very cool.
Alisha (48:50):
Yep and interesting things to try on our site.
I think on average we have atleast usually at least 50
different kinds of pieces forsale on the website, versus that
.
You know the counter that mightonly have the three or four for
you.
So it's a fun way to doexperiment, to try, you know,
that exciting fish that you gotat a sushi restaurant and it's
never, ever seen at retail.
(49:11):
There's a good chance that wehave it.
Chef James (49:14):
Oh, that's, that's really cool.
And what was that website again, Wulf's fish com.
There we go.
Thank you, awesome.
Alisha (49:24):
And for for chefs or anyone who really wants to take
a deep dive.
We have a wholesale websitewhich is a Wulf's Fish wholesale
and that, you know, really getsinto a little bit more from a
professional standpoint and moreof the nitty gritty on some of
the products.
So that's kind of.
We keep the two differentresources.
Chef James (49:39):
Awesome.
Okay, well, Alisha, thank youso much for your time and just
your wisdom.
We went through so much amazingknowledge and information.
Again, that's the reason whyWulf's Fish is in business and
has been in business since 1926,hitting that 98-year marker of
(49:59):
excellence.
So thank you all so much.
Thank you, yeah, all right,everyone.
That is a wrap.
You can check us out if youlike that.
Subscribe Also the InstagramChef Massey.
Let's keep it simple, chefMasseycom, have a good one.
Bye for now.
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