June 12, 2024 • 37 mins
What drives someone to pivot from a pediatric career to raising prized Wagyu cattle? Uncover the inspiring journey of Sheila Patinkin, founder of Vermont Wagyu, as she shares her story of resilience, adaptability, and passion. From acquiring 20 Wagyu embryos in 2007 to overcoming the challenges of COVID-19, floods, and supply chain setbacks, Sheila's tale is a testament to the power of determination. We discuss the innovative ways Vermont Wagyu transitioned to an e-commerce model, now serving 5,000 customers nationwide, and how Sheila repurposed obsolete dairy farms to expand her operations.
Thank you Sheila and team for all you hard work and commitment to excellence!!
https://vermontwagyu.com/collections/wagyu-beef
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:14):
Hey everyone, welcome to Chef Sense.
I'm your host, chef Massey.
Okay, so today on the podcast,this is a real privilege.
Sheila Patinkin, thank you somuch for being on.
From Vermont Wagyu.
How are you?
I'm good, working hard.
Pleasure to be here.
I have to say.
Your product and your integrityand the commitment to what you
(00:35):
provide in Wagyu products youknow, in our country is, it's
really inspiring.
I actually had an acquaintancehere in the Berkshires, john
from Wild Acres Farm, who youknow we go back and forth and
and you know I've always admiredthe work and I'm like I've got
to be more involved with thisand, and you know, just enjoy
the product and continue to getit in and people are just amazed
(00:58):
by, you know, the flavorprofile, the butteriness and
everything that goes along withit.
So you know really enough ofthat.
But let's get into you and thebackstory and how you got into
this.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Okay, well, that's a long story at this point because
of the history and I think theolder you get, the longer the
history or the more years you'vegot behind you.
So Vermont Wagyu was startedback in 2007.
I bought the farm and the sameyear about or a year later, I
bought 20 embryos.
We put those into surrogatemoms.
(01:30):
I think my background as aretired pediatrician with some
genetics research rather helpedme get that foot in the door of
doing genetics in terms of thecows.
So we put in the embryos.
We got 10 calves a year later.
I think by that time we're upto about 2009.
And that really launched usinto a very 100% full blood
(01:55):
Wagyu program.
There's black Wagyu and there'sred Wagyu, and I'm sure you've
heard before that Wagyu means wameaning Japanese and gu meaning
cow.
So these are all Japanese cowsdescended from original cows
that came over in the 1990s.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
And that's amazing, that's really amazing.
And so the size I guess,looking at your operation, can
you go into like the acreage andthe head that you have now
operation.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Can you go into, like the acreage and the head that
you have?
Now I can.
We're very much spread out.
I would say 200 cows here onthe home farm.
We also use and lease two dairyfarms that have become obsolete
in terms of dairy function, butwe picked them up because many
of these dairy farmers that havegone out of business just don't
know what to do.
They don't know what to do withtheir property.
We put them back into businessand we love that.
(02:46):
We love putting the land backinto business, the farmers back
into business, and we raise someof our young stock at those
farms as well.
So overall acreage right herebetween those farms and our farm
we're probably at about 350acres.
A lot of that is forest, A lotof it is old pasture dating back
to the 1700s, and a lot of thatpasture we had to bring back,
(03:09):
as we did the farms, oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
So there's a lot of work getting them turned back
around.
So that's wow.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
Okay, it would have been much easier had we just
started over and built new barns.
That said, there's someantiquity and some beauty and a
feeling of putting old thingsback into function again, which
really makes me feel good interms of stewarding the land.
Oh, that's amazing.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Well, and that's.
It's such an investment in somany ways to turn that around.
Did you face any challengeskind of getting this going?
I mean, how did that processwork for you?
Speaker 2 (03:42):
The first process was just basically how to figure
out how to do the embryo work.
We got into embryos because Icouldn't find any full blood
Wagyu to buy.
There were none on the market,so I had to find a team that
could put in the embryos.
So we purchased the embryos.
I had to figure out how tostore the embryos, which means
(04:03):
getting a liquid nitrogen tankto put them in and then getting
a team together to put theembryos.
I had to figure out how tostore the embryos, which means
getting a liquid nitrogen tankto put them in and then getting
the team together to put theembryos in and birth out the
calves.
There was a learning process,for sure in terms of how to
raise the Wagyu calf.
They are not that hardy.
They birth very easily.
So the mama cow's role is veryeasy.
The farmer's role in terms ofmaking sure that calf stays
(04:25):
alive is just beginning, themoment the calf gets born right.
So there's some hurdles there.
Other hurdles were what do youdo when covid hits and your
restaurants all go dark?
Um, what you do when ludlow,vermont, which is where we had
two major restaurants in the skibelt area there near Okimo
(04:45):
Mountain, all get flooded out inlast summer's floods and then
you're completely lost anddevoid of your major burger
accounts.
What you do when there's a dryice strike in terms of railroads
and trains getting dry icesupplies down to the New England
area.
So, all those things are pointswhere you have to pivot and turn
and figure it out.
(05:05):
So we are now basically ane-commerce business.
We sell.
About 80% of our product goesnationwide 5,000 customers
spread out across the UnitedStates so we're very dependent
on the e-commerce chain in termsof dry ice, packaging, ups.
All of those factors have abearing on us in terms of what
(05:28):
happens if that supply chainbreaks down.
We're less dependent now onwhat happens if the New York
City restaurants go dark or onechef changes businesses.
Many small farmers are verydependent on those chefs and if
they disappear, go away, changejobs.
It's really hard sometimes toget back into the market and get
(05:50):
your feet on the ground again,so I learned the hard way.
It's really nice having adiversified market.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Wow, absolutely.
You know, in talking to ourfarms here, there was kind of
this emergence when people weregoing through COVID that a lot
of our farm stands had gottenhit substantially due to some of
those challenges.
Even though farms had supplychain issues too, people were
able to get product and they sawa boost in e-commerce and some
(06:16):
things like that as well, whichis great.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Well, we were able to make that pivot.
Covid ended up being a bit of areal turnaround for us and the
ability to do that it blossomedinto a whole new market for us.
That's worked quite well.
So now we have I guess 80% ofour market is via e-commerce,
(06:39):
which we enjoy doing.
You've run into Jess.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
Oh yeah, she's great, it's, you know, and I've got
another delivery coming today,you know, cause I have a group
that I'm going to be doing herethis weekend, so I know they're
very excited to try the productas well.
But you know, looking at someof these key areas where you do
the a hundred percent bloodlineWagyu I mean it's certified and
it is, it is yours and you guysare the leaders in that when you
(07:06):
look at your programming,there's that expert breeding,
the agricultural focused mindset.
Can we talk also about that?
How you're data driven, whatthat breakdown looks like.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
Sure, part of what we do is shipping and marketing of
our beef, and the other part isthe livestock, which is what
you're referring to now in termsof stewarding the animals,
making sure we have the best ofthe best genetics.
So I've been breeding thesecows now for 15 to 16 years at
least.
That's a lot of generations ofWagyu to look at, and so you
(07:38):
look to make every generationbetter than the last one.
And when I'm collecting data,originally all we had was the
growth data on the animals so wecould grow better and better,
bigger and bigger bulls everyyear but, not necessarily better
marbled, which is one of thekey reasons you're going to
raise these animals.
(07:58):
Marbling conveys taste and itconveys tenderness, and that's
what most of the consumers wantwhen they taste this steak.
It's that wow effect that theyget.
What we do on top of gettinggrowth data now is again.
For a long time we did havemarbling cards which allowed us
(08:18):
to look at each cut, eachanimal's carcass and say, well,
this one looks better than theother, and to what extent.
Now we use grading cameras.
We have cameras in theharvesting facilities that take
a photo in a certain rib sectionof every animal and we can see
if each generation on a yearlybasis is improving.
(08:38):
We can choose better bullsbased on their marbling
potential.
The marbling potential isdriven by numbers that we get
called EPDs or EBVs from theAmerican Wagyu Association.
And it allows us to be able topredict which bull we think is
going to be better than anotherbull, based on carcass weight,
(09:00):
based on projections.
So we're very driven by thoseEPDs projections.
We're very driven by the growthdata that we get on every
animal.
The other data that we use iswe use live ultrasound data.
We actually select our femalesbased on how they look to
(09:21):
ultrasound at a year of age.
When they're a year of age, wehave a key decision to make Do
they go into the side of thebusiness that is, into raising
calves and being mamas, or dothey go to the beef side of the
business, and we make thatdecision.
We save the best of the bestfor the mama cow-calf pair side
(09:43):
Ones that don't look to beliving up to what their genetics
should be they go into theother pool of animals.
So again, we're very, verydriven.
We're pretty advanced in theUnited States in the fact that
we do ultrasounds.
We duly register our animalsboth in the Australian Wagyu
Association and in the AmericanWagyu Association, and we also
(10:04):
look at all the growth data thatwe have.
The one issue that we'remissing is feed efficiency, and
there's ways to measure how feedefficient that animal is, and I
don't have that data yet, butthat's on the horizon.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Wow, that's amazing how that all breaks down, so
you're really able to controlthe product that you're putting
out.
Also, you are also thepresident correct of the
American Wagyu Association.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Yes, I'm currently a member of the president of the
American Wagyu Association,which is awesome.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
Do you want to share a little bit about that, a quick
overview of them and kind ofhow those work together with
what you're doing?
Speaker 2 (10:38):
Sure Well, the AWA has been an organization that
has existed since 1991.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
They started then because that was the wave of
Japanese imports into thiscountry by plane.
There were four bulls that camein prior to that in the 1970s,
but no females.
And you can't create a breed outof just four males, a breed out
(11:07):
of just four males.
By the time the mid-1990s came,I think, we had a total of
about 130 females and about 29to 30 bulls that came over.
At that point in time theJapanese closed off all imports
into this country.
So what we have now is whatwe're going to have unless we
bring in foreign genetics fromother countries other than Japan
.
Oh my goodness.
So the association startedslowly and at this point in time
(11:30):
we have about 1600 membersworldwide.
I think we're the fastestgrowing breedist cattle beef
breed association in the UnitedStates.
We are not the biggest by anymeans.
Your Angus breed is probablythe biggest out there, for sure
but our growth is justskyrocketing.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
Okay.
Well, how do you like, overyour tenure and some studying
that you've, you know, built in?
What have you noticed in thesense of the Wagyu coming from
Japan to the United States, andhow was that received over time?
Speaker 2 (12:04):
Japanese Wagyu beef is definitely exquisitely
marbled, at least the quality ofthe Japanese beef that we see
imported into this country.
It's usually grade A4 or gradeA5.
They don't typically exportanything that's less than that.
It's a beautiful cut of meat.
It's a personal taste as towhether or not you prefer the
(12:27):
Japanese beef or the AmericanWagyu beef.
When we refer to American Wagyubeef, oftentimes we're
referring to a crossed Wagyu.
Unlike my animals, which areall descended from the original
Japanese that came over,American Wagyu beef tends to be
a little bit less marbled thanthe Japanese beef or even the
(12:48):
100% full blood Wagyu beef thatwe have in this country.
There's a distinct differencein the tenderness and there's a
difference in the flavor profileand in the marbling.
All three of those things are alittle bit different between
the crossed Wagyu and the fullblood Wagyu.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
Right, and I mean I've had, you know, the A5,
which is obviously it's amazingand unbelievably marbled.
But again, I think, going intothat I mean bringing this into
the US.
You know how did you see thatkind of transform over time with
you know, people at home orchefs?
Speaker 2 (13:22):
How do we see the introduction of Japanese Wagyu
versus Japanese Wagyu?
Speaker 1 (13:26):
Right.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
There's such a difference in price Huge.
Yeah, that.
Typically what we try to tellanybody who's interested in our
beef is that this is a prettydarn unusual cut of beef in the
United States.
There aren't too manyfull-blood breeders out there.
It's a very special flavorprofile.
Some of our best beef isgetting very close, if not
reaching, grade A5.
(13:48):
I would say the predominantamount of our beef is grade A4,
but there's certainly a top 20%tier that is grade A5.
And as our bulls get better,they probably will all be grade
A5.
Is that a good thing?
You know, I have to raise thequestion is everybody's flavor
profile going to want the gradeA5 or are they going to prefer
the grade A4?
And that's something that Ithink is going to be dependent
(14:12):
on taste tests down the road.
Personally, I think the bestbeef is about a grade A4 to
grade A5.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
And I know that people you know, you know using
the American Wagyu, it's been,it's been a lot of fun to
educate them on and you know,let them know also, you know,
coming from you in Vermont, it'ssuch a regional and wonderful
product and you know it's, it is, it's great and so looking, you
know, kind of like what we'redealing with is, we've seen some
(14:40):
of our, you know ourslaughterhouses, you know, shut
down over time and kind of thisfight against like the big four
and establishing that.
You know I would, I wouldanticipate like you would
continue to grow even more,especially with e-commerce,
right.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
Well, I haven't seen it ever slow down since COVID.
We've never had a.
We've never had a backwardsyear.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
Well, I haven't seen it ever slow down since COVID.
We've never had a backwardsyear, yeah, okay.
Well, that's amazing whenyou're looking at your
regenerative ag management onthe farm in the sense of
processes, of how you do thisand raising the cattle.
Can you kind of break that downa little bit for listeners?
Speaker 2 (15:14):
I think with Wagyu you've got to have hands-on
calving.
That's the first thing.
We've talked about that alittle bit.
In terms of regenerativepasture measures, that gets back
to the fact that these are oldpastures.
They're usually their limelevel.
They need to be limed.
Their pH level needs to come up.
It's not where it should be.
We've got a lot of work fromchemicals in terms of just
(15:36):
making sure that the pH iscorrect.
Most of that can be broughtaround just by spreading the
manure, which is a great thing.
Manure is a natural fertilizer.
It's there and we should use it.
We should use it wisely andbring back the pastures.
When I first came and startedfarming here, it was all
strawberry bushes, junipers, etcetera, so there's a lot of
improvement that way.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
We don't till ever.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
It's a no-till.
We of improvement that way.
We don't till ever.
It's a no-till.
We don't even own a till, sothat's not even an issue.
The issues with tills ingeneral are that if you dig up
the soil you're going to createerosion and that's going to be a
pollution problem.
We don't till, we never have.
We do spread our fertilizerduring the appropriate months.
In Vermont you're not allowedto spread fertilizer during the
(16:19):
winter months because it stickson the snow and when it melts
then all the manure then runsand pollutes the rivers and the
streams.
So you don't spread manure inthe wintertime.
In the state of Vermont we testour pasture soil every year not
every pasture every year, butwe're on a rotational basis that
we test it to make sureeverything seems to be copacetic
(16:42):
in terms of chemical balancewithin the soil itself.
We rotate our pastures andthat's key.
You probably heard about thatbefore with your exposure to
pasture where you rotate them.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
Right.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
The reasoning or the concept behind rotational
pasture grazing is that if youput your cows on a small piece
of pasture, keep them there fora day, they'll eat everything
down, every blade of grass,including all the weeds, and
then you move them to the nextpiece the next day.
They also put all the manuredown in one small piece, thereby
naturally fertilizing thatsmall piece of pasture, and then
(17:17):
you move them on to the nextpiece and you'll see profound
effects.
When you rotationally graze apasture, over time the weeds
will all be gone, it'll all belush and you can really promote
some of your favorite grasses,such as clovers, some of your
legumes that come up there.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
Right, wow.
So when you're using yourproduct, is there any of yours
that you find are your topsellers?
Speaker 2 (17:40):
Well, probably the best.
Of the best is the ribeye, andthen followed shortly thereafter
by the New York Strip, theDenver.
I love the brisket.
The Denver is one.
Have you tried the Denver yet?
Speaker 1 (17:51):
No, I have not.
No, I've got to get that one.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
It's a fantastic cut for the value.
It's at a lesser price pointand only because most people
don't know about it.
They don't know how tender itis, how well marbled it is.
It's a cut that you don'ttypically see in the restaurant.
It's a cut which is veryunusual for all beef animals to
see, but in the Wagyu isabsolutely supreme.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
Wow One.
You also have your sausages too, which are amazing.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
Gotta like those kielbasa and the chorizo, and
then there's the maple sausagetoo.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
Yeah, they're really good.
Do you think you'll ever getinto and maybe I didn't see it,
but tallow?
Speaker 2 (18:27):
You know tallow is something we did do early on.
We got all the tallow back.
I have no idea what the solderfacility does with the tallow.
I could ask is that somethingyou're interested in?
Speaker 1 (18:37):
Well, I mean, I think it'd be really fun to you know
use it for aging and see howthat kind of imparts back into
you know a piece of meat.
Yeah, that's why I was justkind of curious.
I mean, I've also seen wheresome chefs have done that with
vegetables too.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
You know it does impart a great flavor.
I've seen chefs use it and Ithink it's fantastic.
It's not something I've everused, but then I'm not a chef
and I make that clear to peoplewhen I go to do taste tests with
them.
Is that it's too bad?
I don't have a chef there toreally show it off.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Well, now you have my number and I'm keeping it, you
know, please do because you know, again, going into like, you
even have an, you even have anevent space there or a kitchen
as well.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
Well, this is the office that you're looking back
at, and then upstairs, justabove it, you can see some
stairs going up there.
It's an old barn and so that'sour event space.
Okay, we have.
It's not big.
We use it mostly for tastings.
People that want to have asmall dinner event and we put it
to use that way.
That want to have a smalldinner event and we put it to
(19:43):
use that way.
It's pretty special becauseit's up in the top of an old
hayloft in a 1790s barn and itoverlooks the entire Connecticut
River Valley.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
That's amazing.
That sounds so beautiful.
Well, I was going to ask youtoo, kind of like, what you
thought and I know you're not anutritionist but in the sense of
the value of eating AmericanWagyu beef versus Angus or that
protein profile.
Have you heard or gotten anyfeedback on data regarding that?
Speaker 2 (20:10):
So it's pretty well established that Wagyu beef all
that intramuscular fat that yousee is very high in omega-3s in
the good fat Right and, giventhat you would expect it with
its lipid profile, you wouldexpect it to impart some healthy
benefits.
There are some small studiesthat have been done along those
(20:30):
lines, proving that it doesimpart some health benefits.
All that is in right now beingreviewed by the American Wagyu
Association and put into asummary review article as our
goal, with recommendations as towhat future studies should look
at in terms of healthy benefits.
So that's where I wear my otherhat and have other projects to
(20:52):
work on as well.
Additionally, we haven't talkedabout authentic Wagyu, so I
don't know if you've heard aboutthat, but the American Wagyu
Association is about to market abranded Wagyu.
So I don't know if you've heardabout that, but the American
Wagyu Association is about tomarket a branded Wagyu beef akin
to certified Angus.
So this would be our version ofa verified Wagyu beef, piece of
(21:12):
beef that would have a verydefinite quality claim to it.
It would have an authenticityclaim to it, verifying by DNA
that this steak that you'reeating is exactly what we tell
you it is, that it is Wagyu andto what percentage it is, oh my
gosh.
So we'll delineate it, whetheror not it's a hundred percent,
(21:33):
whether it's a higher percent,between 90 and a hundred, and
whether it's just cross Wagyu,between 50 and 90.
So you'll get all of thatinformation plus.
Born, raised and harvested inthe United States.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
Okay, wow, that is really amazing work.
When you are working throughyour day, what is your?
What's a day in the life youknow of Sheila?
I mean, what does that feellike?
Because you're wearing multiplehats?
Speaker 2 (21:57):
Well, right now the first thing I do is I try to get
up in the morning and work forabout an hour or two, catch up
on emails, answer some, setforth the office with the AWA,
the American Wagyu Association,any critical emails or important
documents that I need to getback to them.
By 7.30 or so I'm out in thebarn bottle feeding some of the
smaller calves, because that'smy job on the farm is to bottle
(22:20):
feed the babies, Any of thosethat need bottle feeding.
Most of our calves arenaturally born and most of them
are with their mamas on thepasture.
We have a few embryo babiesthat we raise due to extreme
genetics that are based on bullsthat we don't have here, that
we use from other sources toimprove our own genetics.
So those are the bottle babiesthat I take care of, and after
(22:42):
that it's anybody's guess as towhat's gonna happen, whether or
not I'm doing a podcast with youor I'm speaking at night
somewhere else, or I'moverlooking what Jess is doing
in the shipping and marketingdepartment.
I pretty much don't have to doanything there anymore.
She's got it running reallywell.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
Oh, that's amazing.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
And then, addition to that, I'll check out with the
guys that are out there in thefields every day as to where
they are with calving any newcalves?
Have they been put into thedata system that we keep on all
the animals?
We have a data system thatcharts every pasture and so we
know when one animal gets movedfrom one pasture to the next.
All that data has to becollected.
(23:22):
If they're given any vaccines,that data has to be collected.
If they're castrated, in termsof becoming a steer, that data
has to be collected.
So it's pretty intense in termsof the amount of care that you
have to give and I basicallyjust oversee most of the
livestock, but it's the babycalves where I intimately get
(23:43):
involved.
That's where being a retiredpediatrician comes into play,
yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
That sounds kind of like a fun perk, but you know,
I'm sure there's a lot of a lotof things to learn about that
there on the farm do you?
Do you have any kind of like ina sense of like learning center
or apprenticeship programs atall?
I mean, I know you do do toursright.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
We do tours on an appointment basis because they
have to catch us here to do themand we love doing that.
We also, over the last severalyears, have received or brought
in French students from anagricultural school in France
and they seem to like cominghere to the United States and
they like coming, staying here.
So our French has improved, buttheir English improved,
(24:28):
unfortunately, a lot more thanour French improved, so that's
been a great boon to us.
We've learned a lot aboutFrench agriculture and they
learned a lot about Wagyu andtaking care of Wagyu.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
Oh, that's amazing.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
Other than, that I think we just started.
Jess can tell you more aboutthis, but we just started a farm
to school lunch program thisyear.
Oh fun yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
Oh, that's great.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
Wagyu and we like providing it for them.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
Yeah Well, and also just your thoughts.
I mean, you know, I've I don'tknow if you've heard of Dr
Marion Nessel.
She's done the book, she's anauthor and she has done about 14
publications.
But food politics and it reallykind of talks about our food
system here in the US and howwe're challenging the big ag or
(25:15):
the complex ag system.
And the sense of what you'redoing and working hard to be so
committed and be here in theStates and be such a provider of
high quality like that.
You've got to feel good aboutyour role, right.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
I love what I do, so it comes from the heart, it's a
passion and it's something thatI just get up every morning and
I never look back.
It's always good.
I do get tired sometimes withbringing on as much as I bring
on, but I do feel good aboutwhat I do.
Interesting fact that I findjust amazing is that the United
(25:52):
States, with all the beef thatit produces, imports relatively
little.
I think it's something like ofthe.
Well, I'm not going to quotefigures because I don't have
them in front of me, but themajority of the beef that we
produce and we're by far thelargest beef producer in the
world we consume almost all ofit here.
A very small percent getsexported and a relatively small
(26:15):
percent gets imported.
So basically we areself-consumers of all that
gigantic amount of beef.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
Wow Okay, wow, that's really that's, that's amazing.
Wow Okay, well, that's unlikemost countries.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
If you compare it to Australia, they export almost
every bit of the beef that theyproduce yeah, the Wagyu breed.
The association itself isalmost all small farmers.
Our average size of our Wagyufarmer is about has 34 cows.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
Okay, oh wow.
Do you have any other thingsyou'd like to bring up that
maybe I missed?
Speaker 2 (26:51):
Oh gosh, james.
So why did you want to do thispodcast?
Speaker 1 (26:54):
Yes, well because when I looked at all of the work
that you have done and usingthe quality or your drivers, you
know, and the science behindwhat you're doing and being 100%
pure blood and that commitmentto giving consumers, you know, a
high quality, integral productthat makes a difference in their
(27:17):
lives, it makes a difference ina chef's life and the story
behind it, I think, is veryinspiring and to me as a chef
I'm a storyteller my job is tomeet someone like you, or to
meet inspiring people that haveintegrity in the food that
they're giving to the consumer.
(27:37):
That it's not know, it's notmixed messages and it's clean
and it's you know, it'scommitted to.
You know our region and sothat's where you know in using
your product, it just standsapart from everyone, so you know
.
That's why.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
So I have two messages.
One hits upon the on VermontWagyu solely, and that is my
dedication to the staff that Iput together.
I think they're just veryspecial people.
Most of them have come to us.
Most of them live on the hillhere.
It's a natural, historicdistrict.
These people just are, again,so dedicated and call Jess and
(28:15):
you'll get your order out rightaway.
She'll even come up on aweekend when she's off.
I mean, it's that kind ofcommitment.
The guys come in all the timeto take care of sick animals at
night.
So their dedication is justexceptional and I love working
with them as well as the animals.
The other message is there's somuch growth and potential for
(28:35):
the Wagyu beef in this country.
We need to brand it better.
We need to provide thatauthentic Wagyu beef in this
country.
We need to brand it better.
We need to provide thatauthentic Wagyu label that tells
you exactly what that animal is.
And we need to tell you thatthe flavor profile of the
American Wagyu beef especiallythe more marbled, the more
closer to 100% full blood beefthat it gets is one of the best
flavor profiles in the world andwe've hardly touched that story
(28:58):
in this country.
We need to touch the story thatthe flavor profile of 100% full
blood Wagyu rivals any beef inthe world, and we haven't hardly
begun in terms of getting thatnotch.
Speaker 1 (29:11):
Okay, and in that I mean how can you see someone
working that process?
What do you think the steps are, you know, in that, to solidify
that?
Speaker 2 (29:19):
Well, this, Well, this is an AWA issue that I hit
upon often when I'm talkingabout AWA and its role and what
can we do for the Wagyu beef inthis country?
I think we need more steakcontests out there.
I think they need to be done sothat you compare the American
Wagyu steak all different typesand levels, because not
everybody prefers 100% fullblood.
You'll have some that preferthat crossed Wagyu steak all
(29:39):
different types and levels,because not everybody prefers
100% full blood.
You'll have some that preferthat crossed Wagyu and you might
have some people that stillfeel that Angus is the best beef
, or Hereford.
So I'd love to see steakcontests where consumers get to
be introduced to all thedifferent types of beef on a
blinded basis.
Oh, wow.
Verify exactly how good it is.
(30:01):
So that's one step right there.
And then the branding of it,the explaining what is a Wagyu,
why is it good?
What are the health benefits?
We've hardly touched that inthis country.
You see it on our websites, buthow many of your customers
actually know about it when youtalk to them and you tell the
story?
Don't you think we've got a lotmore education to do?
Speaker 1 (30:23):
Oh, I agree with you.
Yeah, because I think it'sespecially today.
I think where technology is isit's a quick hit and move on,
you know, and to captivatesomeone, you know.
It's like you almost have tohave tight verbiage in that
frame just to get them and tryto hit everything so that you
can get as much out there aspossible.
And it's very hard, yeah, it'svery hard.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
Yeah, it's a fun story to tell, though, as much
as we can at this point, you'llhave to come up here.
You're not that far away, right?
Speaker 1 (30:52):
I think I'm about a two and a half hour.
I'm in Western Massachusetts,Great Barrington.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
Ah, I have good friends in Sheffield.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
Oh, okay, oh nice.
No, I'm not.
I would say probably about atwo and a half hour drive.
Right, I do that drive quite abit down to Sheffield, okay, you
know, okay, it would be greatto get there and do a tour and
see more, you know.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
Well, likewise, next time I drive down to Sheffield
to see them, I'll have to stopby and catch a cup of coffee
with you somewhere.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
I would love that, and I'm building up my
Argentinian grill out here, so Iplan on doing some things off
of that.
That should be fun.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
An Argentinian grill.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
Yeah, it's a nice Duomo Troman grill so it's a
station actually.
It has the hanging hooks, ithas the center fire pit that you
start your mother in and youbuild it underneath and it kind
of comes down and it's acircular fire pit.
I can do a plancha, I could dogrills and they kind of look
(31:51):
like crescent cast iron platesthat you just drop in how you
want them and you can just cookand roast right.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
There hang some vegetables and I've got a couple
of racks too, for you knowroasting as well.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
Yeah, no, I'm excited about that.
And that's where, again, theway that you treat your proteins
, you know, especially the Wagyuusing your product is.
It's so beautiful getting thatcaramelization, that rendering
at the right temperature.
You know, I always say using afire.
When you're cooking out in theelements, like that maybe that's
(32:26):
my indigenous side but likewhen you're out in the open and
you're cooking somethingbeautiful, like what you produce
, I sense that I see it and nowit's my job to do something with
it.
So, in that, in respecting thework from all of those people,
in that one steak or thatproduct that I'm getting in,
(32:47):
from you all, it's like whatelse can I do with this?
You know, can I sous vide it?
Can I impart some flavor?
Can I quick sear?
Can I char?
Can I, you know, do a variety?
Can I smoke?
You know, that's where cookingwith, with amazing people and
that's why, you know, I'm sograteful to have you on the
podcast is, yeah, because I wantto talk to people that inspire
me.
(33:07):
So, and you, like you said,sharing that story, what better
way to get the story than fromthe founder herself?
Oh, thank you.
Yeah To to take that and thatenergy that you deliver to me, I
pass on to them.
You're respecting the processfrom the soil up, and to do that
with what you guys are doing,it tastes completely different.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
You know, I haven't tried very many types of Wagyu.
Can I ask?
Speaker 1 (33:32):
I've used, like Snake River, you know.
I've used some others that youknow.
I thought they were very good,but yours is excellent, you know
.
Yeah, and I've had the A5 Wagyuflown in.
That was through D'Artagnan Ibelieve, and that was amazing,
but it's a complete different,you know, complete different
topic.
But again, no, it truly is.
(33:54):
It's inspiring.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
So I can't wait to use more of the products, so can
I ask what you got mostrecently?
Speaker 1 (34:00):
Well, this order I've got the flank steak and I've
done the Delmonico, the flatiron, the ground burger.
I think I did that.
I did the ribeye, which wasawesome, like amazing, yeah,
kielbasa chorizo and thebreakfast sausage.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
So I'm working the list, I'm not.
My homework's not done yet.
Speaker 2 (34:23):
Well, we're going to have to have you come up.
Our goal by the way this isagain moving to the AWA hat for
a moment is such that when youserve a steak in your restaurant
, your customer can say oh, Iwant to check to make sure that
that steak that you said youbought from Vermont Wagyu and
provided for us is really aVermont Wagyu steak, and so they
(34:43):
can then take a sample fromthat steak, send it off to the
AWA and be able to come back andsay to you you know what it
really was a Vermont Wagyuproduct and I know the dam and
the sire of that steak.
Wow, tell you what percentageof Wagyu it was.
Speaker 1 (34:59):
That's amazing.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
Also be able to probably tell you what the
marbling content of that was.
So it is amazing and that's thelevel that we hope to take that
authentic Wagyu program to.
Speaker 1 (35:10):
Wow, that's yeah.
I don't even know how you evenhave enough time in the day, but
that's all just so amazing.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
Oh, I don't.
There's 25 hours in my day,that's why yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
Well, all right.
Well, so for the listeners howthey can connect on the website
correct and they can connect onthe website.
Speaker 2 (35:31):
On the website there is a video that's about two
years old now from NBC whichthey can click onto and they can
see the farm.
They can see a video.
They can see your podcasthopefully will eventually make
its way to the website too, ohcool.
And so they can see all of thisabout the farm.
They can see our shopping listfrom the farm, right there from
(35:53):
the shopping list.
They can also come to the farmas well and pick it up if they
choose to do so.
So there's a bit of a discountif you pick up at the farm.
Speaker 1 (36:02):
Well, it sounds like I'll be helping nurse some of
the babies if I get up there andmaybe give you some level of a
break, right?
Speaker 2 (36:11):
I think it's my grandchildren's favorite thing
too to come up and take care ofthose babies.
Speaker 1 (36:15):
Oh, it's beautiful.
Yeah, that's one of the bestthings, it's.
Yeah, that really.
That really shows the kickoffinto the year, right?
Yes, you're like off to theraces, so okay.
Well, thank you, sheila, somuch for your time.
It was amazing learning so muchmore and also matching that up
and getting more informationinto my head.
You know so, when I use theseamazing products, I can support
(36:36):
educating people too and, likeyou said, get the word out there
.
So well, thank you, sheila, andtake care.
Speaker 2 (36:43):
Same to you, james.
Thanks so much, it's reallybeen a pleasure.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
Yeah, all right, everyone, that is a wrap.
You can check us out if youlike that.
Subscribe Also the InstagramChef Massey.
Let's keep it simple,chefmasseycom.
Have a good one.
Bye for now.
Hey everyone, welcome to Chef Sense.
I'm your host, chef Massey.
Okay, so today on the podcast,this is a real privilege.
Sheila Patinkin, thank you somuch for being on.
From Vermont Wagyu.
How are you?
I'm good, working hard.
Pleasure to be here.
I have to say.
Your product and your integrityand the commitment to what you
(00:35):
provide in Wagyu products youknow, in our country is, it's
really inspiring.
I actually had an acquaintancehere in the Berkshires, john
from Wild Acres Farm, who youknow we go back and forth and
and you know I've always admiredthe work and I'm like I've got
to be more involved with thisand, and you know, just enjoy
the product and continue to getit in and people are just amazed
(00:58):
by, you know, the flavorprofile, the butteriness and
everything that goes along withit.
So you know really enough ofthat.
But let's get into you and thebackstory and how you got into
this.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Okay, well, that's a long story at this point because
of the history and I think theolder you get, the longer the
history or the more years you'vegot behind you.
So Vermont Wagyu was startedback in 2007.
I bought the farm and the sameyear about or a year later, I
bought 20 embryos.
We put those into surrogatemoms.
(01:30):
I think my background as aretired pediatrician with some
genetics research rather helpedme get that foot in the door of
doing genetics in terms of thecows.
So we put in the embryos.
We got 10 calves a year later.
I think by that time we're upto about 2009.
And that really launched usinto a very 100% full blood
(01:55):
Wagyu program.
There's black Wagyu and there'sred Wagyu, and I'm sure you've
heard before that Wagyu means wameaning Japanese and gu meaning
cow.
So these are all Japanese cowsdescended from original cows
that came over in the 1990s.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
And that's amazing, that's really amazing.
And so the size I guess,looking at your operation, can
you go into like the acreage andthe head that you have now
operation.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Can you go into, like the acreage and the head that
you have?
Now I can.
We're very much spread out.
I would say 200 cows here onthe home farm.
We also use and lease two dairyfarms that have become obsolete
in terms of dairy function, butwe picked them up because many
of these dairy farmers that havegone out of business just don't
know what to do.
They don't know what to do withtheir property.
We put them back into businessand we love that.
(02:46):
We love putting the land backinto business, the farmers back
into business, and we raise someof our young stock at those
farms as well.
So overall acreage right herebetween those farms and our farm
we're probably at about 350acres.
A lot of that is forest, A lotof it is old pasture dating back
to the 1700s, and a lot of thatpasture we had to bring back,
(03:09):
as we did the farms, oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
So there's a lot of work getting them turned back
around.
So that's wow.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
Okay, it would have been much easier had we just
started over and built new barns.
That said, there's someantiquity and some beauty and a
feeling of putting old thingsback into function again, which
really makes me feel good interms of stewarding the land.
Oh, that's amazing.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Well, and that's.
It's such an investment in somany ways to turn that around.
Did you face any challengeskind of getting this going?
I mean, how did that processwork for you?
Speaker 2 (03:42):
The first process was just basically how to figure
out how to do the embryo work.
We got into embryos because Icouldn't find any full blood
Wagyu to buy.
There were none on the market,so I had to find a team that
could put in the embryos.
So we purchased the embryos.
I had to figure out how tostore the embryos, which means
(04:03):
getting a liquid nitrogen tankto put them in and then getting
a team together to put theembryos.
I had to figure out how tostore the embryos, which means
getting a liquid nitrogen tankto put them in and then getting
the team together to put theembryos in and birth out the
calves.
There was a learning process,for sure in terms of how to
raise the Wagyu calf.
They are not that hardy.
They birth very easily.
So the mama cow's role is veryeasy.
The farmer's role in terms ofmaking sure that calf stays
(04:25):
alive is just beginning, themoment the calf gets born right.
So there's some hurdles there.
Other hurdles were what do youdo when covid hits and your
restaurants all go dark?
Um, what you do when ludlow,vermont, which is where we had
two major restaurants in the skibelt area there near Okimo
(04:45):
Mountain, all get flooded out inlast summer's floods and then
you're completely lost anddevoid of your major burger
accounts.
What you do when there's a dryice strike in terms of railroads
and trains getting dry icesupplies down to the New England
area.
So, all those things are pointswhere you have to pivot and turn
and figure it out.
(05:05):
So we are now basically ane-commerce business.
We sell.
About 80% of our product goesnationwide 5,000 customers
spread out across the UnitedStates so we're very dependent
on the e-commerce chain in termsof dry ice, packaging, ups.
All of those factors have abearing on us in terms of what
(05:28):
happens if that supply chainbreaks down.
We're less dependent now onwhat happens if the New York
City restaurants go dark or onechef changes businesses.
Many small farmers are verydependent on those chefs and if
they disappear, go away, changejobs.
It's really hard sometimes toget back into the market and get
(05:50):
your feet on the ground again,so I learned the hard way.
It's really nice having adiversified market.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Wow, absolutely.
You know, in talking to ourfarms here, there was kind of
this emergence when people weregoing through COVID that a lot
of our farm stands had gottenhit substantially due to some of
those challenges.
Even though farms had supplychain issues too, people were
able to get product and they sawa boost in e-commerce and some
(06:16):
things like that as well, whichis great.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Well, we were able to make that pivot.
Covid ended up being a bit of areal turnaround for us and the
ability to do that it blossomedinto a whole new market for us.
That's worked quite well.
So now we have I guess 80% ofour market is via e-commerce,
(06:39):
which we enjoy doing.
You've run into Jess.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
Oh yeah, she's great, it's, you know, and I've got
another delivery coming today,you know, cause I have a group
that I'm going to be doing herethis weekend, so I know they're
very excited to try the productas well.
But you know, looking at someof these key areas where you do
the a hundred percent bloodlineWagyu I mean it's certified and
it is, it is yours and you guysare the leaders in that when you
(07:06):
look at your programming,there's that expert breeding,
the agricultural focused mindset.
Can we talk also about that?
How you're data driven, whatthat breakdown looks like.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
Sure, part of what we do is shipping and marketing of
our beef, and the other part isthe livestock, which is what
you're referring to now in termsof stewarding the animals,
making sure we have the best ofthe best genetics.
So I've been breeding thesecows now for 15 to 16 years at
least.
That's a lot of generations ofWagyu to look at, and so you
(07:38):
look to make every generationbetter than the last one.
And when I'm collecting data,originally all we had was the
growth data on the animals so wecould grow better and better,
bigger and bigger bulls everyyear but, not necessarily better
marbled, which is one of thekey reasons you're going to
raise these animals.
(07:58):
Marbling conveys taste and itconveys tenderness, and that's
what most of the consumers wantwhen they taste this steak.
It's that wow effect that theyget.
What we do on top of gettinggrowth data now is again.
For a long time we did havemarbling cards which allowed us
(08:18):
to look at each cut, eachanimal's carcass and say, well,
this one looks better than theother, and to what extent.
Now we use grading cameras.
We have cameras in theharvesting facilities that take
a photo in a certain rib sectionof every animal and we can see
if each generation on a yearlybasis is improving.
(08:38):
We can choose better bullsbased on their marbling
potential.
The marbling potential isdriven by numbers that we get
called EPDs or EBVs from theAmerican Wagyu Association.
And it allows us to be able topredict which bull we think is
going to be better than anotherbull, based on carcass weight,
(09:00):
based on projections.
So we're very driven by thoseEPDs projections.
We're very driven by the growthdata that we get on every
animal.
The other data that we use iswe use live ultrasound data.
We actually select our femalesbased on how they look to
(09:21):
ultrasound at a year of age.
When they're a year of age, wehave a key decision to make Do
they go into the side of thebusiness that is, into raising
calves and being mamas, or dothey go to the beef side of the
business, and we make thatdecision.
We save the best of the bestfor the mama cow-calf pair side
(09:43):
Ones that don't look to beliving up to what their genetics
should be they go into theother pool of animals.
So again, we're very, verydriven.
We're pretty advanced in theUnited States in the fact that
we do ultrasounds.
We duly register our animalsboth in the Australian Wagyu
Association and in the AmericanWagyu Association, and we also
(10:04):
look at all the growth data thatwe have.
The one issue that we'remissing is feed efficiency, and
there's ways to measure how feedefficient that animal is, and I
don't have that data yet, butthat's on the horizon.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Wow, that's amazing how that all breaks down, so
you're really able to controlthe product that you're putting
out.
Also, you are also thepresident correct of the
American Wagyu Association.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Yes, I'm currently a member of the president of the
American Wagyu Association,which is awesome.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
Do you want to share a little bit about that, a quick
overview of them and kind ofhow those work together with
what you're doing?
Speaker 2 (10:38):
Sure Well, the AWA has been an organization that
has existed since 1991.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
They started then because that was the wave of
Japanese imports into thiscountry by plane.
There were four bulls that camein prior to that in the 1970s,
but no females.
And you can't create a breed outof just four males, a breed out
(11:07):
of just four males.
By the time the mid-1990s came,I think, we had a total of
about 130 females and about 29to 30 bulls that came over.
At that point in time theJapanese closed off all imports
into this country.
So what we have now is whatwe're going to have unless we
bring in foreign genetics fromother countries other than Japan
.
Oh my goodness.
So the association startedslowly and at this point in time
(11:30):
we have about 1600 membersworldwide.
I think we're the fastestgrowing breedist cattle beef
breed association in the UnitedStates.
We are not the biggest by anymeans.
Your Angus breed is probablythe biggest out there, for sure
but our growth is justskyrocketing.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
Okay.
Well, how do you like, overyour tenure and some studying
that you've, you know, built in?
What have you noticed in thesense of the Wagyu coming from
Japan to the United States, andhow was that received over time?
Speaker 2 (12:04):
Japanese Wagyu beef is definitely exquisitely
marbled, at least the quality ofthe Japanese beef that we see
imported into this country.
It's usually grade A4 or gradeA5.
They don't typically exportanything that's less than that.
It's a beautiful cut of meat.
It's a personal taste as towhether or not you prefer the
(12:27):
Japanese beef or the AmericanWagyu beef.
When we refer to American Wagyubeef, oftentimes we're
referring to a crossed Wagyu.
Unlike my animals, which areall descended from the original
Japanese that came over,American Wagyu beef tends to be
a little bit less marbled thanthe Japanese beef or even the
(12:48):
100% full blood Wagyu beef thatwe have in this country.
There's a distinct differencein the tenderness and there's a
difference in the flavor profileand in the marbling.
All three of those things are alittle bit different between
the crossed Wagyu and the fullblood Wagyu.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
Right, and I mean I've had, you know, the A5,
which is obviously it's amazingand unbelievably marbled.
But again, I think, going intothat I mean bringing this into
the US.
You know how did you see thatkind of transform over time with
you know, people at home orchefs?
Speaker 2 (13:22):
How do we see the introduction of Japanese Wagyu
versus Japanese Wagyu?
Speaker 1 (13:26):
Right.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
There's such a difference in price Huge.
Yeah, that.
Typically what we try to tellanybody who's interested in our
beef is that this is a prettydarn unusual cut of beef in the
United States.
There aren't too manyfull-blood breeders out there.
It's a very special flavorprofile.
Some of our best beef isgetting very close, if not
reaching, grade A5.
(13:48):
I would say the predominantamount of our beef is grade A4,
but there's certainly a top 20%tier that is grade A5.
And as our bulls get better,they probably will all be grade
A5.
Is that a good thing?
You know, I have to raise thequestion is everybody's flavor
profile going to want the gradeA5 or are they going to prefer
the grade A4?
And that's something that Ithink is going to be dependent
(14:12):
on taste tests down the road.
Personally, I think the bestbeef is about a grade A4 to
grade A5.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
And I know that people you know, you know using
the American Wagyu, it's been,it's been a lot of fun to
educate them on and you know,let them know also, you know,
coming from you in Vermont, it'ssuch a regional and wonderful
product and you know it's, it is, it's great and so looking, you
know, kind of like what we'redealing with is, we've seen some
(14:40):
of our, you know ourslaughterhouses, you know, shut
down over time and kind of thisfight against like the big four
and establishing that.
You know I would, I wouldanticipate like you would
continue to grow even more,especially with e-commerce,
right.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
Well, I haven't seen it ever slow down since COVID.
We've never had a.
We've never had a backwardsyear.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
Well, I haven't seen it ever slow down since COVID.
We've never had a backwardsyear, yeah, okay.
Well, that's amazing whenyou're looking at your
regenerative ag management onthe farm in the sense of
processes, of how you do thisand raising the cattle.
Can you kind of break that downa little bit for listeners?
Speaker 2 (15:14):
I think with Wagyu you've got to have hands-on
calving.
That's the first thing.
We've talked about that alittle bit.
In terms of regenerativepasture measures, that gets back
to the fact that these are oldpastures.
They're usually their limelevel.
They need to be limed.
Their pH level needs to come up.
It's not where it should be.
We've got a lot of work fromchemicals in terms of just
(15:36):
making sure that the pH iscorrect.
Most of that can be broughtaround just by spreading the
manure, which is a great thing.
Manure is a natural fertilizer.
It's there and we should use it.
We should use it wisely andbring back the pastures.
When I first came and startedfarming here, it was all
strawberry bushes, junipers, etcetera, so there's a lot of
improvement that way.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
We don't till ever.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
It's a no-till.
We of improvement that way.
We don't till ever.
It's a no-till.
We don't even own a till, sothat's not even an issue.
The issues with tills ingeneral are that if you dig up
the soil you're going to createerosion and that's going to be a
pollution problem.
We don't till, we never have.
We do spread our fertilizerduring the appropriate months.
In Vermont you're not allowedto spread fertilizer during the
(16:19):
winter months because it stickson the snow and when it melts
then all the manure then runsand pollutes the rivers and the
streams.
So you don't spread manure inthe wintertime.
In the state of Vermont we testour pasture soil every year not
every pasture every year, butwe're on a rotational basis that
we test it to make sureeverything seems to be copacetic
(16:42):
in terms of chemical balancewithin the soil itself.
We rotate our pastures andthat's key.
You probably heard about thatbefore with your exposure to
pasture where you rotate them.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
Right.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
The reasoning or the concept behind rotational
pasture grazing is that if youput your cows on a small piece
of pasture, keep them there fora day, they'll eat everything
down, every blade of grass,including all the weeds, and
then you move them to the nextpiece the next day.
They also put all the manuredown in one small piece, thereby
naturally fertilizing thatsmall piece of pasture, and then
(17:17):
you move them on to the nextpiece and you'll see profound
effects.
When you rotationally graze apasture, over time the weeds
will all be gone, it'll all belush and you can really promote
some of your favorite grasses,such as clovers, some of your
legumes that come up there.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
Right, wow.
So when you're using yourproduct, is there any of yours
that you find are your topsellers?
Speaker 2 (17:40):
Well, probably the best.
Of the best is the ribeye, andthen followed shortly thereafter
by the New York Strip, theDenver.
I love the brisket.
The Denver is one.
Have you tried the Denver yet?
Speaker 1 (17:51):
No, I have not.
No, I've got to get that one.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
It's a fantastic cut for the value.
It's at a lesser price pointand only because most people
don't know about it.
They don't know how tender itis, how well marbled it is.
It's a cut that you don'ttypically see in the restaurant.
It's a cut which is veryunusual for all beef animals to
see, but in the Wagyu isabsolutely supreme.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
Wow One.
You also have your sausages too, which are amazing.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
Gotta like those kielbasa and the chorizo, and
then there's the maple sausagetoo.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
Yeah, they're really good.
Do you think you'll ever getinto and maybe I didn't see it,
but tallow?
Speaker 2 (18:27):
You know tallow is something we did do early on.
We got all the tallow back.
I have no idea what the solderfacility does with the tallow.
I could ask is that somethingyou're interested in?
Speaker 1 (18:37):
Well, I mean, I think it'd be really fun to you know
use it for aging and see howthat kind of imparts back into
you know a piece of meat.
Yeah, that's why I was justkind of curious.
I mean, I've also seen wheresome chefs have done that with
vegetables too.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
You know it does impart a great flavor.
I've seen chefs use it and Ithink it's fantastic.
It's not something I've everused, but then I'm not a chef
and I make that clear to peoplewhen I go to do taste tests with
them.
Is that it's too bad?
I don't have a chef there toreally show it off.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Well, now you have my number and I'm keeping it, you
know, please do because you know, again, going into like, you
even have an, you even have anevent space there or a kitchen
as well.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
Well, this is the office that you're looking back
at, and then upstairs, justabove it, you can see some
stairs going up there.
It's an old barn and so that'sour event space.
Okay, we have.
It's not big.
We use it mostly for tastings.
People that want to have asmall dinner event and we put it
to use that way.
That want to have a smalldinner event and we put it to
(19:43):
use that way.
It's pretty special becauseit's up in the top of an old
hayloft in a 1790s barn and itoverlooks the entire Connecticut
River Valley.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
That's amazing.
That sounds so beautiful.
Well, I was going to ask youtoo, kind of like, what you
thought and I know you're not anutritionist but in the sense of
the value of eating AmericanWagyu beef versus Angus or that
protein profile.
Have you heard or gotten anyfeedback on data regarding that?
Speaker 2 (20:10):
So it's pretty well established that Wagyu beef all
that intramuscular fat that yousee is very high in omega-3s in
the good fat Right and, giventhat you would expect it with
its lipid profile, you wouldexpect it to impart some healthy
benefits.
There are some small studiesthat have been done along those
(20:30):
lines, proving that it doesimpart some health benefits.
All that is in right now beingreviewed by the American Wagyu
Association and put into asummary review article as our
goal, with recommendations as towhat future studies should look
at in terms of healthy benefits.
So that's where I wear my otherhat and have other projects to
(20:52):
work on as well.
Additionally, we haven't talkedabout authentic Wagyu, so I
don't know if you've heard aboutthat, but the American Wagyu
Association is about to market abranded Wagyu.
So I don't know if you've heardabout that, but the American
Wagyu Association is about tomarket a branded Wagyu beef akin
to certified Angus.
So this would be our version ofa verified Wagyu beef, piece of
(21:12):
beef that would have a verydefinite quality claim to it.
It would have an authenticityclaim to it, verifying by DNA
that this steak that you'reeating is exactly what we tell
you it is, that it is Wagyu andto what percentage it is, oh my
gosh.
So we'll delineate it, whetheror not it's a hundred percent,
(21:33):
whether it's a higher percent,between 90 and a hundred, and
whether it's just cross Wagyu,between 50 and 90.
So you'll get all of thatinformation plus.
Born, raised and harvested inthe United States.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
Okay, wow, that is really amazing work.
When you are working throughyour day, what is your?
What's a day in the life youknow of Sheila?
I mean, what does that feellike?
Because you're wearing multiplehats?
Speaker 2 (21:57):
Well, right now the first thing I do is I try to get
up in the morning and work forabout an hour or two, catch up
on emails, answer some, setforth the office with the AWA,
the American Wagyu Association,any critical emails or important
documents that I need to getback to them.
By 7.30 or so I'm out in thebarn bottle feeding some of the
smaller calves, because that'smy job on the farm is to bottle
(22:20):
feed the babies, Any of thosethat need bottle feeding.
Most of our calves arenaturally born and most of them
are with their mamas on thepasture.
We have a few embryo babiesthat we raise due to extreme
genetics that are based on bullsthat we don't have here, that
we use from other sources toimprove our own genetics.
So those are the bottle babiesthat I take care of, and after
(22:42):
that it's anybody's guess as towhat's gonna happen, whether or
not I'm doing a podcast with youor I'm speaking at night
somewhere else, or I'moverlooking what Jess is doing
in the shipping and marketingdepartment.
I pretty much don't have to doanything there anymore.
She's got it running reallywell.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
Oh, that's amazing.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
And then, addition to that, I'll check out with the
guys that are out there in thefields every day as to where
they are with calving any newcalves?
Have they been put into thedata system that we keep on all
the animals?
We have a data system thatcharts every pasture and so we
know when one animal gets movedfrom one pasture to the next.
All that data has to becollected.
(23:22):
If they're given any vaccines,that data has to be collected.
If they're castrated, in termsof becoming a steer, that data
has to be collected.
So it's pretty intense in termsof the amount of care that you
have to give and I basicallyjust oversee most of the
livestock, but it's the babycalves where I intimately get
(23:43):
involved.
That's where being a retiredpediatrician comes into play,
yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
That sounds kind of like a fun perk, but you know,
I'm sure there's a lot of a lotof things to learn about that
there on the farm do you?
Do you have any kind of like ina sense of like learning center
or apprenticeship programs atall?
I mean, I know you do do toursright.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
We do tours on an appointment basis because they
have to catch us here to do themand we love doing that.
We also, over the last severalyears, have received or brought
in French students from anagricultural school in France
and they seem to like cominghere to the United States and
they like coming, staying here.
So our French has improved, buttheir English improved,
(24:28):
unfortunately, a lot more thanour French improved, so that's
been a great boon to us.
We've learned a lot aboutFrench agriculture and they
learned a lot about Wagyu andtaking care of Wagyu.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
Oh, that's amazing.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
Other than, that I think we just started.
Jess can tell you more aboutthis, but we just started a farm
to school lunch program thisyear.
Oh fun yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
Oh, that's great.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
Wagyu and we like providing it for them.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
Yeah Well, and also just your thoughts.
I mean, you know, I've I don'tknow if you've heard of Dr
Marion Nessel.
She's done the book, she's anauthor and she has done about 14
publications.
But food politics and it reallykind of talks about our food
system here in the US and howwe're challenging the big ag or
(25:15):
the complex ag system.
And the sense of what you'redoing and working hard to be so
committed and be here in theStates and be such a provider of
high quality like that.
You've got to feel good aboutyour role, right.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
I love what I do, so it comes from the heart, it's a
passion and it's something thatI just get up every morning and
I never look back.
It's always good.
I do get tired sometimes withbringing on as much as I bring
on, but I do feel good aboutwhat I do.
Interesting fact that I findjust amazing is that the United
(25:52):
States, with all the beef thatit produces, imports relatively
little.
I think it's something like ofthe.
Well, I'm not going to quotefigures because I don't have
them in front of me, but themajority of the beef that we
produce and we're by far thelargest beef producer in the
world we consume almost all ofit here.
A very small percent getsexported and a relatively small
(26:15):
percent gets imported.
So basically we areself-consumers of all that
gigantic amount of beef.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
Wow Okay, wow, that's really that's, that's amazing.
Wow Okay, well, that's unlikemost countries.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
If you compare it to Australia, they export almost
every bit of the beef that theyproduce yeah, the Wagyu breed.
The association itself isalmost all small farmers.
Our average size of our Wagyufarmer is about has 34 cows.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
Okay, oh wow.
Do you have any other thingsyou'd like to bring up that
maybe I missed?
Speaker 2 (26:51):
Oh gosh, james.
So why did you want to do thispodcast?
Speaker 1 (26:54):
Yes, well because when I looked at all of the work
that you have done and usingthe quality or your drivers, you
know, and the science behindwhat you're doing and being 100%
pure blood and that commitmentto giving consumers, you know, a
high quality, integral productthat makes a difference in their
(27:17):
lives, it makes a difference ina chef's life and the story
behind it, I think, is veryinspiring and to me as a chef
I'm a storyteller my job is tomeet someone like you, or to
meet inspiring people that haveintegrity in the food that
they're giving to the consumer.
(27:37):
That it's not know, it's notmixed messages and it's clean
and it's you know, it'scommitted to.
You know our region and sothat's where you know in using
your product, it just standsapart from everyone, so you know
.
That's why.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
So I have two messages.
One hits upon the on VermontWagyu solely, and that is my
dedication to the staff that Iput together.
I think they're just veryspecial people.
Most of them have come to us.
Most of them live on the hillhere.
It's a natural, historicdistrict.
These people just are, again,so dedicated and call Jess and
(28:15):
you'll get your order out rightaway.
She'll even come up on aweekend when she's off.
I mean, it's that kind ofcommitment.
The guys come in all the timeto take care of sick animals at
night.
So their dedication is justexceptional and I love working
with them as well as the animals.
The other message is there's somuch growth and potential for
(28:35):
the Wagyu beef in this country.
We need to brand it better.
We need to provide thatauthentic Wagyu beef in this
country.
We need to brand it better.
We need to provide thatauthentic Wagyu label that tells
you exactly what that animal is.
And we need to tell you thatthe flavor profile of the
American Wagyu beef especiallythe more marbled, the more
closer to 100% full blood beefthat it gets is one of the best
flavor profiles in the world andwe've hardly touched that story
(28:58):
in this country.
We need to touch the story thatthe flavor profile of 100% full
blood Wagyu rivals any beef inthe world, and we haven't hardly
begun in terms of getting thatnotch.
Speaker 1 (29:11):
Okay, and in that I mean how can you see someone
working that process?
What do you think the steps are, you know, in that, to solidify
that?
Speaker 2 (29:19):
Well, this, Well, this is an AWA issue that I hit
upon often when I'm talkingabout AWA and its role and what
can we do for the Wagyu beef inthis country?
I think we need more steakcontests out there.
I think they need to be done sothat you compare the American
Wagyu steak all different typesand levels, because not
everybody prefers 100% fullblood.
You'll have some that preferthat crossed Wagyu steak all
(29:39):
different types and levels,because not everybody prefers
100% full blood.
You'll have some that preferthat crossed Wagyu and you might
have some people that stillfeel that Angus is the best beef
, or Hereford.
So I'd love to see steakcontests where consumers get to
be introduced to all thedifferent types of beef on a
blinded basis.
Oh, wow.
Verify exactly how good it is.
(30:01):
So that's one step right there.
And then the branding of it,the explaining what is a Wagyu,
why is it good?
What are the health benefits?
We've hardly touched that inthis country.
You see it on our websites, buthow many of your customers
actually know about it when youtalk to them and you tell the
story?
Don't you think we've got a lotmore education to do?
Speaker 1 (30:23):
Oh, I agree with you.
Yeah, because I think it'sespecially today.
I think where technology is isit's a quick hit and move on,
you know, and to captivatesomeone, you know.
It's like you almost have tohave tight verbiage in that
frame just to get them and tryto hit everything so that you
can get as much out there aspossible.
And it's very hard, yeah, it'svery hard.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
Yeah, it's a fun story to tell, though, as much
as we can at this point, you'llhave to come up here.
You're not that far away, right?
Speaker 1 (30:52):
I think I'm about a two and a half hour.
I'm in Western Massachusetts,Great Barrington.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
Ah, I have good friends in Sheffield.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
Oh, okay, oh nice.
No, I'm not.
I would say probably about atwo and a half hour drive.
Right, I do that drive quite abit down to Sheffield, okay, you
know, okay, it would be greatto get there and do a tour and
see more, you know.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
Well, likewise, next time I drive down to Sheffield
to see them, I'll have to stopby and catch a cup of coffee
with you somewhere.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
I would love that, and I'm building up my
Argentinian grill out here, so Iplan on doing some things off
of that.
That should be fun.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
An Argentinian grill.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
Yeah, it's a nice Duomo Troman grill so it's a
station actually.
It has the hanging hooks, ithas the center fire pit that you
start your mother in and youbuild it underneath and it kind
of comes down and it's acircular fire pit.
I can do a plancha, I could dogrills and they kind of look
(31:51):
like crescent cast iron platesthat you just drop in how you
want them and you can just cookand roast right.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
There hang some vegetables and I've got a couple
of racks too, for you knowroasting as well.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
Yeah, no, I'm excited about that.
And that's where, again, theway that you treat your proteins
, you know, especially the Wagyuusing your product is.
It's so beautiful getting thatcaramelization, that rendering
at the right temperature.
You know, I always say using afire.
When you're cooking out in theelements, like that maybe that's
(32:26):
my indigenous side but likewhen you're out in the open and
you're cooking somethingbeautiful, like what you produce
, I sense that I see it and nowit's my job to do something with
it.
So, in that, in respecting thework from all of those people,
in that one steak or thatproduct that I'm getting in,
(32:47):
from you all, it's like whatelse can I do with this?
You know, can I sous vide it?
Can I impart some flavor?
Can I quick sear?
Can I char?
Can I, you know, do a variety?
Can I smoke?
You know, that's where cookingwith, with amazing people and
that's why, you know, I'm sograteful to have you on the
podcast is, yeah, because I wantto talk to people that inspire
me.
(33:07):
So, and you, like you said,sharing that story, what better
way to get the story than fromthe founder herself?
Oh, thank you.
Yeah To to take that and thatenergy that you deliver to me, I
pass on to them.
You're respecting the processfrom the soil up, and to do that
with what you guys are doing,it tastes completely different.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
You know, I haven't tried very many types of Wagyu.
Can I ask?
Speaker 1 (33:32):
I've used, like Snake River, you know.
I've used some others that youknow.
I thought they were very good,but yours is excellent, you know
.
Yeah, and I've had the A5 Wagyuflown in.
That was through D'Artagnan Ibelieve, and that was amazing,
but it's a complete different,you know, complete different
topic.
But again, no, it truly is.
(33:54):
It's inspiring.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
So I can't wait to use more of the products, so can
I ask what you got mostrecently?
Speaker 1 (34:00):
Well, this order I've got the flank steak and I've
done the Delmonico, the flatiron, the ground burger.
I think I did that.
I did the ribeye, which wasawesome, like amazing, yeah,
kielbasa chorizo and thebreakfast sausage.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
So I'm working the list, I'm not.
My homework's not done yet.
Speaker 2 (34:23):
Well, we're going to have to have you come up.
Our goal by the way this isagain moving to the AWA hat for
a moment is such that when youserve a steak in your restaurant
, your customer can say oh, Iwant to check to make sure that
that steak that you said youbought from Vermont Wagyu and
provided for us is really aVermont Wagyu steak, and so they
(34:43):
can then take a sample fromthat steak, send it off to the
AWA and be able to come back andsay to you you know what it
really was a Vermont Wagyuproduct and I know the dam and
the sire of that steak.
Wow, tell you what percentageof Wagyu it was.
Speaker 1 (34:59):
That's amazing.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
Also be able to probably tell you what the
marbling content of that was.
So it is amazing and that's thelevel that we hope to take that
authentic Wagyu program to.
Speaker 1 (35:10):
Wow, that's yeah.
I don't even know how you evenhave enough time in the day, but
that's all just so amazing.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
Oh, I don't.
There's 25 hours in my day,that's why yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
Well, all right.
Well, so for the listeners howthey can connect on the website
correct and they can connect onthe website.
Speaker 2 (35:31):
On the website there is a video that's about two
years old now from NBC whichthey can click onto and they can
see the farm.
They can see a video.
They can see your podcasthopefully will eventually make
its way to the website too, ohcool.
And so they can see all of thisabout the farm.
They can see our shopping listfrom the farm, right there from
(35:53):
the shopping list.
They can also come to the farmas well and pick it up if they
choose to do so.
So there's a bit of a discountif you pick up at the farm.
Speaker 1 (36:02):
Well, it sounds like I'll be helping nurse some of
the babies if I get up there andmaybe give you some level of a
break, right?
Speaker 2 (36:11):
I think it's my grandchildren's favorite thing
too to come up and take care ofthose babies.
Speaker 1 (36:15):
Oh, it's beautiful.
Yeah, that's one of the bestthings, it's.
Yeah, that really.
That really shows the kickoffinto the year, right?
Yes, you're like off to theraces, so okay.
Well, thank you, sheila, somuch for your time.
It was amazing learning so muchmore and also matching that up
and getting more informationinto my head.
You know so, when I use theseamazing products, I can support
(36:36):
educating people too and, likeyou said, get the word out there
.
So well, thank you, sheila, andtake care.
Speaker 2 (36:43):
Same to you, james.
Thanks so much, it's reallybeen a pleasure.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
Yeah, all right, everyone, that is a wrap.
You can check us out if youlike that.
Subscribe Also the InstagramChef Massey.
Let's keep it simple,chefmasseycom.
Have a good one.
Bye for now.
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