A Middle Eastern Pantry with Lior Lev Sercarz of La Boîte Spice Shop

Episode Transcript
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Chris Spear (00:00):
What if there were no spices? Do you imagine how
boring our food would be? Well,thankfully that's not the case.
And today, my guest is Lior Levsupercars of laguan. Get ready
for the spice episode. This isChris spear and you're listening
to Chefs Without Restaurants.
The show where I speak withculinary entrepreneurs and
people working in the food andbeverage industry outside of a
traditional restaurant setting.

(00:24):
We are as the chef, Vice blenderand owner of lewat spice shop in
New York City. He previouslyreleased three cookbooks, the
art of blending the spicecompanion and mastering spice.
This week he released his fourthbook, a Middle Eastern pantry.
In this new cookbook. He focuseson the everyday ingredients used
throughout this vast region,including Turkey, Tunisia,

(00:45):
Yemen, Iran, Iraq, Israel,Armenia, Jordan and more as he
offers an homage to the pantrystaples that define Middle
Eastern cuisine. In addition todiscussing his cookbooks, we
talked about why he started hisSpice Company and how it's
evolved since its inception.
Currently, he has around 100spice blends that are available
to the public, but he makes anadditional 200 specifically for

(01:07):
other restaurants andbusinesses. Additionally, he
sells 80 to 90 single spices. Wealso talk about the procurement
process, the quality of hisspices, and spice use today
versus back in the 80s. Youknow, way back when your mom
probably had just pepper,granulated garlic and a musty
old can of paprika. And notrelated to spices. We talked

(01:29):
about the formation of theGalilee Culinary Institute,
something that he's reallypassionate about. I'm going to
assume that my listeners likefood with flavor, therefore,
think you're going to love thisshow. And if you are indeed
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(01:50):
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Hey Lior. wWlcome to the show.
Thanks so much for coming ontoday.

Lior Lev Sercarz (03:10):
Thanks for having me.

You are the Spice guy, right. I'm ready to talk
spices. Are you ready to talk tome since today? Always, always,
always, always. You know, Ithink it's one of those things
it's to me seems funny, strangethat, like I didn't grow up
eating a lot of spices. And wecan dig into this. Like, I don't
know, I grew up as I feel likein the 80s like a traditional

(03:32):
American household where my momhad like two or three things in
the pantry, you know, salt,pepper and maybe granulated
garlic. We didn't eat a lot ofethnic food. And you know, now
like 40 years later, you know,housewives are using harissa
paste, and you know, all kindsof interesting things. And I
just think it's so fantastic tosee kind of the landscape of

(03:53):
what people in America areeating, not just in restaurants,
but cooking in their own homes.
I mean, that obviously must becool for you to see.

Yeah, I think, you know, first of all, you're
not alone. So don't feel bad. Imean, there's millions like you
and there's millions who arestill probably with those
things, same three items at homewith the garlic and salt,
pepper, maybe some onion, youknow, maybe so but but the
reality is that things arechanging quite rapidly. And you

(04:24):
know, when we started lab, what16 years ago, it's far it was
far from what their reality istoday. I think that for the
longest time you know, ethnicfood wasn't really a thing that
you ate out in a restaurant. Soit was reserved to certain
ethnicities, certain cultures,in certain countries, in what do

(04:48):
we you know, what we thought ofbeing ethnic or international
was, I wouldn't say mediocre,but not such a good
interpretation of what it wasmeant to be. What happened over
the last 1520, maybe 30 yearsis, you know, first of all
exposure via media, of otherplaces, other countries, the

(05:12):
simple fact that food is finallya good subject of conversation.
You know, I remember, you know,telling my parents that I wanted
to be a cook, they werehorrified that it's what you did
if you failed anything else. AndI think that it's now a valid,
respectful profession, it'sstill not easy, it's still a

(05:34):
very physical challenging, butit's it's more accepted and
finally talked about what itwas. People travel more,
obviously, with the whole launchof electronic devices, Schluss
social media, we get informationin seconds. And we now know what

(05:55):
everybody's cooking and eatingaround the planet. And it gets
us curious and excited. And, youknow, as you start digging into
these components, and historyand stories, you are bound to
find spices. And I think thatwhat was and still is, sadly, an
afterthought, is finallybecoming an ingredient, which we

(06:16):
are the biggest advocates ofsaying spices are an ingredient.
And if they are, then you shouldconsider them without, as most
you know, respect as you do foryour produce and protein. And
even your kitchen tools, whichcould be a whole other topic of
conversation, I'm sure youdidn't have fancy Japanese

(06:37):
knives growing home, animmersion circulator. Or hand
blender. Yeah, none of that. Sothere's, there's a lot that
happened to the industry. And Ithink also one very nice thing
is that the crossover betweenthe professional and home
cooking world is becomingsmaller and smaller. So that,

(07:00):
you know, you see I visit somefriends home and some people's
home, which it's not far frombeing a restaurant level kitchen
with the equipment and theingredients. So which is makes
me very happy. So I think that'sthat's kind of what it is. And
what I said earlier about ethniccuisine, it's finally Okay. And
you live in the DC area wherethere's so many fantastic

(07:23):
cultures and ethnicities, andyou can now go to African
restaurants in Indianrestaurants and, and they are as
authentic as you would expectthem to be, whether they're
casual, or even, you have someamazing fine dining, Indian
restaurants in, in Washington,DC.

Yeah, and I've talked to a lot of guests
recently about this, you know,sourcing. And you know, that's a
big part of what we'll talkabout, because you've got a
spice business, but, you know,the availability, whether it's
more shops carrying a diverserange, or the internet, I mean,
I love that I can just go onlineand order, whatever I need. And
it can be in my house in acouple of days. I don't need to
say, Oh, I don't have this witha couple days of planning,

(08:02):
there's probably not much in theworld you can't get. Yeah,

no, I agree.
Listen, when I started thebusiness, we've got a lot of
kind of, I wouldn't saynegative, but like, some
feedback of saying, oh, youknow, it's, it's not fair.
You're calling for these andthese ingredients, and we can't
get them in? You know, I thoughtthat they were living in some
sort of a remote area with noelectricity and internet.

Let's kind of talk about how you got into the spice
business. I know you were achef. So can you talk a little
bit about your culinarybackground, and then how that
evolved into what you're doingtoday?

Sure, I so I worked, you know, for over 2025
years in restaurants in Israel,then in France, and then here in
New York City, and was alwaysthinking about, you know, what's
next? You know, am I going toopen a restaurant am I going to
work for somebody and I think atsome point, I kind of decided to

(08:59):
take the path of taking sometime off from the traditional
restaurant cooking in our didsome corporate cooking, which
gave me a little bit more timeto think of what's next and, you
know, out of, you know, pureboredom because, you know, my
day got cut in half because, youknow, I was home by three or

(09:21):
four in the afternoon, which isa normal day's work for most
people. I started playing aroundwith baking cookies and selling
them and then got a request froma chef friend who was interested
in spices and so I just bought alittle coffee grinder and a
couple of mixing bowls. Andthat's pretty much how I loved

(09:43):
what started in word of mouthfrom one friend to the next and
at some point decided to make ita legit real business and open
the store in 2010. And thenthree years ago, opening our
production facility down thestreet And there was never a
real game plan. I mean, I didwrite a business plan, but

(10:04):
nothing ever happened. It wassupposed to be a coffee shop
with a little bit of cookies andbaked goods. Maybe it's good, it
never

happened. It's very different than what you're doing
now. Yeah, it

is very different. But I think, you
know, I had an idea, I would saythis, I made sure that, you
know, I was financially sort ofstable, I had a second job. And
as I was trying to figure out,which I often talk to, with a
lot of people who want to starttheir business and unless they
have tremendous amount of cash,is to make sure that what you're

(10:37):
doing is the right thing. Andalways having that stability,
until you reach the point whereyou're kind of making the
decision that it's safe enoughto cross over. That's how I got
into it. The reason was really,it still connected to the food
industry. I'm working withprofessional chefs and other

(10:59):
culinary industry people. Butwhat I did gain, which I didn't
have for years is the day to daycontact with the home cooks.
It's the contact with thesuppliers, the manufacturers,
and really disability to seeingstart to finish the whole
process is having an idea of aproduct, going to the source,

(11:20):
getting the product, writing arecipe process being involved in
in design, and the branding andthe packaging, and then sales in
discovered, which I didn't knowfor years that I really had this
passion for this 360 overallapproach to some parts of the
business that I enjoy less. ButI still do that. That's super

(11:42):
fascinating, too. We

all have those parts of business that we don't
love doing, right? We'll talkabout the sourcing, because with
spices in particular. I mean, Ithink that's I don't wanna say
it's everything. But I mean,there's such a wide variety of
quality, right and price, likeyou can go to stores and buy
different spices, let's just saylike a paprika from five
different, you know, producers,purveyors stores, and they're

(12:04):
going to be a varying quality.
So how did you ensure that thequality that you wanted was
available? And, you know, justkind of making sure that you're
putting the best stuff outthere?

Yeah, so I started with, you know, I said,
Okay, I need spices, you know,paprika, pepper, or whatever.
Where does one go? So youobviously find some, you know,
websites where like, Oh, you gotto buy a container or a pallet,
and they wouldn't even talk toyou. So I started. And at the

(12:37):
same time, going to your localsupermarket buying two ounces at
a time didn't make sense. So alot of research online, a couple
of stores here in the CD thatoffered like half pound bags, or
one pound bags, that for me withlarge amounts of the time. And
the more I bought, the more Ieducated myself in terms of

(12:59):
what's better quality, what'sbetter packaging, obviously,
better pricing. And as thebusiness grew, I started slowly
to be able to reach out to thesemiddle skilled suppliers and
like, Okay, I'm ready to buy a50 pound bag of the product,
because they knew I was going togo through it, keeping in mind
that I worked out of myapartment for three years. So

(13:22):
there's also that much I wasdoing all of my deliveries by
hand or taking the subway orbike or something. So with time,
I was able to identify a bettersupply system, growers,
importers, it's hard to get tothe farm or farmers label in
many cases, just because it'simpossible, especially overseas.

(13:45):
But primarily the the network ofimporters or distributors that
really care about what it isthat they're selling and in
developing relationship infinding that one or two people
within the company who likefood, and can give me some
insight trading about the batchof human that just arrived. And

(14:07):
so that's very exciting. Andit's still an ongoing, it's
we're not the point. I mean,people come and go quality come
and go. So it's an ongoingsearch for these suppliers. Your

product line evolved over the years, like how
many things were you startingwith? And where are you at now?

So I started with about, you know, six or
seven blends that were made formy first customer, that's what
they wanted, and then addingslowly, I had lots of time and
many ideas. So I was justdeveloping, I don't know a blend
a month or sometimes a littlebit more. For the longest time

(14:46):
for about I'd say, six, seven ormore years. I wasn't even
selling single spices. You know,I kind of I was a bit dumb. You
know, I was like, Oh, we Ididn't think people would be
interested in buying my singlespace because there's other
people, it took me a very longtime, maybe too long, I mean,
looking back, I should have fromthe beginning. And then at some

(15:11):
point, once I got morecomfortable, I started doing
these collaborations. So withour shift space ships, whatever
culinary people starting todevelop blends with them or for
them or both. And expanding theline, we are today, probably
over a little bit over 100blends that are available for

(15:33):
everyone meaning food serviceand home consumers. In another
probably 200 or so blends thatare made just for particular
food service clients, when theyordered them, so literally no
inventory, we just place anorder we make it, we ship it.

(15:53):
And then on the single spiceside, probably around the 8090
single spices that we offer,again, both food service and
home consumers

from just six or seven blends.

It is I mean, it took it took some time, we
are now pretty stable, I mean,we will we will introduce a
product here and there. We'renow also in the middle of
revisiting this catalog andseeing what still makes sense. I
like everything but you know,financially storage production,
we got to be smart about what itis that we're doing.

And you're definitely seeing the breakdown
between spices and a certaincuisine, to say like, you're
seeing people use Ethiopianspices or African spices or
Middle Eastern in foods thataren't necessarily authentic to
that region. You know, I thinkit's really interesting that you
don't have to be making, youknow, traditional Burberry

(16:51):
chicken to be using the Burberryspice and one of your dishes,
and just kind of like auniversal approach to spice
using and not just kind ofkeeping it in the same pocket as
whatever that cuisine is.

Yeah, I think that the more we get granular
about whatever cuisine, origin,all of discover, all of a
sudden, you discover that thereare so many other influences,
you know, so I always give thissimple example of tacos on
Pastore, which, you know, mostpeople have had one. With the
first time I've seen it wasn'twhen I moved here 21 years ago,

(17:26):
and I was like, oh, shawarma,and I was like, No, that's not
cosell. pastores. Like, no, no,that's show Arma. And when you
start, you know, doing a littlebit of research, you don't have
to go that far, you discoverthat there's some Ottoman
influences over Mexican cuisinewith whatever happened in
history. Somebody probably hadan extra pineapple and threw

(17:48):
some piece on it on the top. Andthen how it came in, when he
started looking at tacos. Andyou find out that this did
something called tacos, AllahRubus, which means Arabic tacos.
And I think that's the beauty ofit. You can say yes, I'm cooking
traditional Mexican cuisine. ButI'm also want to be true, or pay
tribute to where it started. Socan I include elements that are

(18:13):
Turkish, ottoman, Middle Easternwithout, you know, making it a
fusion, something that's, youknow, and I think chefs and
others are becoming smarter, andyou know, trying to dig deep and
tell a story that's compellingto their audience, trying to
educate them in in a fun way,not, you know, being over

(18:34):
complicated, and have thefreedom of bringing elements
from other places that just makesense to them.

And it's always exciting when you find a new
space, I know, you know, I'llhave a cookbook, and it'll call
for something. So I'll buy aspice and then you've got this
containers, like, well, let'sjust start putting in a bunch of
different things and seeing howit goes.

Yeah, for sure. So I think, you know,
spices the beauty of it, in ourworld, at least here is that
they don't just belong to acertain country or ethnicity
there for everyone to be used.
And I think that, you know, youcan own a Japanese knife and

(19:14):
make me the least and food.
Nobody's gonna hold youaccountable. Like, oh my god,
yeah. How come you're usingyou're not Japanese restaurant.
i It's a bit exaggerating. Butto some extent, it's not
exaggerating. I think that usinghuman from India, in Eastern

(19:36):
European recipe, or in a SouthAmerican recipe or whatever,
doesn't take away from the, youknow, authentic aspect of the
cuisine that you're making, youknow, you know, Japanese use
certain elements. Most of themare from Japan, not all of them.

(19:56):
And to me, it's one of the morekind of true to reality cuisine
that they still out there wordsif done, right, it's very
authentic. But even then youstart to seeing, you know, if
you're doing Japanese cuisine inthe United States, sure, you can
fly fish from the market, youcan or whatever. But I think
those who do it right, try tointegrate a little bit of the

(20:20):
vibe of the country that they'reliving in, without sacrificing
the authentic story.

Oh, definitely. You know, so many of our listeners
are chefs, and I'm sure theyhave a good handle on how to use
spice. But for the home cooksout there, what advice do you
have for them on expanding theirspice knowledge and maybe
incorporating some new blendsinto their cooking, I cook for
people at home as a personalchef. And so often, you know,

(20:48):
people talk about how limitedtheir spice knowledge is, and
that they don't have a spicepantry, I think people are
overwhelmed. So where's a goodplace to start? I mean, I always
tell people just go to thestore. And if you can buy in
bulk, like buy a coupleteaspoons, tablespoons and see
if you like it. But do you haveany great advice?

I think it's first of all, evaluating what
you already have at home, andhow good is the quality of that
product? When's the last timeyou use this? When is it from?
And so without running, withoutrunning to the store and buying
you item is, first of all, whatdo you have at home, and then

(21:27):
doing some cleaning in you know,changing over there. Then after
that, I think that it'sinteresting to try to try
something new, whether it's asingle space, whether it's
violin, whether you want toexpand, experiment with making
your own blends, and stillcooking, what it is that you
like to cook, I definitelywouldn't recommend changing, you

(21:50):
know, or try and do new recipes.
Unless you're trying somethingfrom a different cuisine or
country that you're unfamiliarand, and spices are part of it.
But I think the easiest way isreally to cook, whatever you
like, whatever you're good at,etc. and trying different
seasonings, whether it's asingle spice spice blend, and
for the most part, if notalways, it's just amazing to see

(22:13):
how that regular dish thatyou've been making forever, all
of a sudden looks and tastes andsmells so different. Just by
changing the seasoning profileof

roast chicken, a simple piece of fish a steak or
something, you know, instead ofmaking something new, just try a
different spice blend on roastedchicken, right? Because you know
what chickens like? And youknow, if you'd like roast
chicken? Yeah, for sure. At whatwhat about storage, I'm
concerned, like, is plastic anissue, you know, I put them in
little plastic containers, butis that like not a good way to

(22:48):
store them if you're buying inbulk.

Um, you know, glass is fantastic. If I had to
pick the ultimate, you know,vessel, it will be a glass jar.
The challenge with glasses,eight, if it breaks, it's a
mess. Also, it is transparent.
So you don't gain anything whenit comes to light exposure.

(23:12):
Again, people freak out aboutlights exposure, if, unless
you're putting your jars on theedge of a window that's, you
know, 12 hours a day directsunlight, it's fine to leave
them in your kitchenenvironment. So that's glass,
plastic, we use plastic, I useplastic at home, I use plastic

(23:32):
at work, we sell our product inplastic, it's recyclable. So for
those who freak out about, youknow, the recycling aspect, to
my little knowledge, andhopefully I'm not wrong, the
amount of energy and effort torecycle glass and plastic are
pretty much the same, if not thesame. So I would love to use

(23:53):
just glass, it's a matter of youknow, cost and breakage and
weight. I'm not saying that downthe road, we will not go there,
it's possible that we will. Sowe use plastic. You know, I
think that both plastic andglass are great because you just
see what you have in your jarversus some opaque material

(24:16):
where you open the jar and andit's Oh, it's empty, you know,
metal, which is totally finehood, to some extent interact
with certain acidic spaces. Andalso, as I said, you just don't
know what you have left andpeel. You try to do something
and it's empty.

I was thinking my grandmother's like old McCormick
spice tins, right, like and sheprobably still has some from
like 1970 in the back of herpantry with like marjoram or
something that she you know,hasn't been used in 40 years.

Yeah, yeah. So I think as an aside from
whatever vessel it is that youhave one thing that I definitely
recommend is keeping track ofwhen the space is From So, if
you buy it from a company thathas like a best use before,
that's great. If you don't justsimply write somewhere on the
label with a pen or some sort ofa Sharpie, kind of, you know,

(25:13):
I'd say the kind of a good keepis just if you're not sure. So
just add one year to the date ofpurchase, that when you brought
this thing into your home,again, don't throw it away on
the anniversary date. But just,you know, try to use it. And if
you really still have a lot,either give it away, make a

(25:35):
blend out of the end, just don'tbuy it again, because
apparently, you're just notusing it. And it's okay, if I am
not here to force it. Like youhave to use margarine if
marjoram isn't your thing, don'tbuy it.

And I always tell people, you know, I like to buy
bulk spices in the storeslocally, because I'm just buying
a couple tablespoons, maybe aquarter of a cup at the time.
And also seems to be much lessexpensive. You know, when you
look at the, let's say, a fiveounce jar of whatever the
grocery store, if you were tobuy the same thing and just go
to these, like we have a greatorganic store around us. All
organic spices, you know, takeout a couple of tablespoons,

(26:11):
it's much less expensive. I'musing it a lot faster. So it
doesn't ever expire in my house.
And again, if it's somethingI've never had, and I don't
really like I'm not out likethis whole container of it.
Yeah. So let's, let's talk aboutcookbooks. Because you have
authored three, and you haveyour fourth book coming out now.
Which is amazing. Like, whytackled cookbooks? Because that

(26:36):
seems like it's totally out ofthe realm. I mean, I'm sure you
have, obviously had to haverecipes, because you were doing
blends. But what made you wantto start getting into the
cookbooks?

Yeah, the first one was really kind of a
way to showcase the the homecooks and even professionals,
just purely what to do with ourblends. We've had 41 blends at
the time. So the book covers 41.
Obviously, we're over 100 today.

(27:08):
And I just wanted to give peoplea tool and tell them the story
of why created this blend in acouple of ideas of what they
could do with it. And theninstead of me writing the
recipes, and by the way, in thefirst book, there's not even
one. Yeah, there's not onerecipe of mine, I reached out to
41 of our partners, friends, andsome weird restaurants, some

(27:32):
without some in between. Some ofthem no longer have their
restaurant, and ask them to eachcontribute a recipe, what I did
is kind of re reworked them alittle bit in quantities that
are suitable for the home cook.
We did the photography and thestyling and I self publish it
because I reached out to afriend who was an editor. And

(27:55):
she kindly explained to me thatthis book doesn't make sense for
a publisher because it promotesour product, which which makes
sense. And so my wife and I, andwe brought on a great guy who
now has his own publishingcompany. And with our fantastic
photographer, we did it all inless than a year. I spent good

(28:19):
money on it, I published it. Weare on our third edition of it,
which is great. And funny enoughas I was halfway through this
book, an editor who is now thebig boss of a lot of other

(28:40):
editors who became a friend owedso read an article about and
came over and said, I'd like tosee if one day we'll do a book.
I said, Well, you're six monthstoo late for this one. But you
know if I ever do a second oneand he was like, Yeah, please do
call me and about a year and ahalf or two later. I had some
drinks with him and you knowover a couple of glasses of wine

(29:03):
and a napkin and a pen. I kindof briefly told him what my idea
was, which became book numbertwo. I have a good friend Her
name is Dorie Greenspan, who Idon't know how many books story
did God bless. She told me afterbook one one day, she's like,
watch out because this canbecome a disease. And I said and
I'm just gonna do one, don'tworry. It's so hard and

(29:27):
expensive that and then after Iread the book to as like, oh,
okay, I see her point. And thenwe did Book Two great to this
date, probably the best sellerout of all the three. I'm hoping
that book four will do evenbetter. And then actually the
publisher which I have a greatrelationship, clouds and Potter.

(29:48):
They came back to me and pitchto me the idea of doing book
number three, which becamemastering space and I think As I
was working on pestering space,that's how I do it to myself as
like, I already have this kindof idea for the next book. But I
took some time off I think abouta year or so. And I, my editor

(30:11):
changed. And then I reached outand we kind of together sort of
put together this concept ofwhat is book number four that's
coming out in June, called aMiddle Eastern poetry. Talking
about your question earlierabout supply and in suppliers.
This is what really intrigued mefor this book concept is, you

(30:33):
know, there's been a lot ofbooks about Middle Eastern
cuisine, Israeli food, whatnot,which are all amazing and
fabulous. I wanted to go wantedto go kind of behind the scene
of the ingredients that makethis cuisine so unique, then
this notion of pantry, which,hopefully we'll get some better
PR because, you know, even ifyou have a small apartment

(30:57):
somewhere, I think that pantryitems are so to me, so crucial
to making good food is alwayshaving some oils and vinegars
and condiments and driedlagoons, and all of these things
that we kind of take for grantedbut they're not in hoping that
and paying tribute again to thisamazing region where I'm from

(31:19):
from the Middle East, with itscomplexity, but beautiful
flavors and so that's theupcoming book and I always say
this is it but see how far thatgot me so I don't know that
there will be book five or morebut to be to be seen.

Well, I I've gotten an advance on the book and it
looks great. You know, ourlisteners are probably going to
have heard this a number oftimes because I've been talking
to a few cookbook authors latelyand there seems to be this theme
of like stocking your pantryespecially I think because so
many people if we're gonna talkabout like home cooks they work
you know they want to have adelicious dinner it's tough to

(32:03):
get it on the table and I thinkif you stock your pantry really
well then you can pull togethera delicious dinner and not a lot
of time and just have you knowif you have a doesn't have the
right ingredients you can have adelicious dinner

Yeah, for sure. I think that again like I
see in our little world ofspices the condiments and pantry
items are always already alreadyhad an are still having a moment
where I'm sure you you knowgrowing up there was some
vegetable oil which wasn'tnecessarily identify what that

(32:37):
sugar it's from extra virginolive oil was unheard of. I can
tell you that even in Israelthat everyone like yeah, sure
olive oil. Growing up olive oilwas part of Palestinian or Druze
a lot of other in Israel but itwasn't accepted by the large
Israeli community. Chickpeatahini which we now you find in

(33:01):
I wouldn't say 711 Althoughmaybe there is the need 711
Wouldn't be surprised or halvahuntil that long ago weren't
considered ingredients. And so Ithink it's, it's important and
again, you don't have to haveyou know, seven different oils
and six different vinegars. It'sokay, if you have one of each,

(33:23):
but don't you want to try it andhave the one that you like the
most, it's not about being thebest or the worst? It's what you
like, that's what you know,something I tell people always
about spices and everythingelse. It doesn't matter what I
like, you know, you are you andthat's it. I'm here to show you
and educate you. But at the endof the day, it's about you

(33:43):
making that decision. And if youdon't like pepper, why do you
have a pepper mill in yourkitchen? You know, unless you
want to put in your living roomas the core object.

Well, I think growing up we just had a Italian
salad dressing in the fridgeright? And it was like you
marinated a steak in that or youmarinated mushrooms in it, but I
don't think I had olive oil. Ibelieve I was in sixth grade
like I had to take a cookingclass in middle school. So I
would have been like 11 yearsold and distinctly remember that
being the first time I ever hadolive oil

and I'm sure you still you know meet people
were in their homes or evenprofessional chefs and I
wouldn't say unfortunately it iswhat it is and if you're happy
person then who am I to judgeyou. I'm just here to offer
advice and help were saying youknow, have you ever considered
the salt that you using? Did youever try different oils? How

(34:35):
about you know your yourcardamom which should have been
long gone from your kitchen? Theunfortunate reality is that we
there is no very littleeducation when it comes to
spices. But the level is gettingbetter every year.

Well, what are some of the recipes in this book?
Like what can people expect fromthe new cookbook when you say
pay entery recipes and stockingyour pantry. Can you give us a
little behind the scenes look atlike what will be in the book?

Yeah, absolutely. So you know,
anywhere from more familiarrecipes using olive oil as an
ingredient so for consumingvegetables or olive oil based
deserts to more unique evenunique to me they came as we
were writing the book there's aTurkish preparation called tell

(35:28):
Hannah, I apologize for the theaccents and the pronunciation.
It's a fermented yogurt andvegetable base that then
dehydrated into big like chunksthat then you can powder and you
end up with this beautifulyogurt and vegetable powder that

(35:49):
you can use to make soups. Soimagine a bouillon cube just
made with yogurt and freshvegetable that has a great Tang.
So there's a recipe on how tomake it you can it's a product
that's not easily available butyou can buy it in some ethnic
store so there's those twoextremes and anything in between

(36:10):
us you know how to make hummusyou know using you know,
chickpeas how to make some youknow, you know traditional
Middle Eastern ravioli is withsome lamb in them braising fish
with tahini. So there's parts ofthe recipes, how to make that
pantry ingredient, and then howto use it. So laminate bowls, is

(36:33):
if you wanted to make your own,we just store bought yogurt you
can or if you already havelovely that you can source
somewhere, what can you do withit. So we wanted to feature both
on you know, recipes on how tomake certain pantry items. I
obviously don't don't expectpeople to press their own olive
oil home, we're not at thatlevel I not. There are some

(36:55):
actually some super fun machinesout there. Now that on our
homeschool level. But good luckfinding olives unless you have
your own tree. But if you wereto make your own cured olives,
so that's a good example. Youcan very easily now during the
season that stretches prettylong, because in some parts of

(37:17):
California, it starts a bitearlier, it's buying green
olives, and you can now see themin more and more green markets
during the season. And make yourown crack oil, olives, which is
fun, you know, and at leastunderstanding the process. So a
mix between making your own, butalso using store bought entry

(37:38):
ingredients and how you can youknow use them in with more
familiar recipes, such asbraised chicken or roast leg of
lamb with some Middle Easterninfluence, but then some more in
depth recipes such as meatthat's cooked with yogurt stone,
and then served over a loaf ofbread and some rice. So there's

(38:01):
some more elaborated recipes,but some more simple everyday
salads and roasts and braces,

I found it to be very educational. I mean, I
think I have a pretty goodhandle on a lot of these dishes
and recipes. But there was somuch I learned like I've never
heard of it was in the molassessection. There's like a molasses
made from like a grape juice andI've never heard of that before.
And I thought you know, maybeI'll make this, you know,
Project fun project for aweekend,

even even visit a zoo which you know, it's
one of the ingredients that I'venever understood why it never
picked up you know, and didn'tget more recognition, which even
in France is used in certainparts of the country, but he's
using a lot of Persian Cuisinebasically, you know, smashed

(38:50):
crushed, you know, unripe greengrapes that makes this beautiful
slightly acidic recipe or likeyou mentioned the grape molasses
so fresh grapes that can bejuiced and you know a lot of us
at home now have juicers becausewe make our juice and then
making a reduction out of it andinstead of using some

(39:12):
artificially or sugar intensemolasses super easy to make
great shelflife delicious insalad dressings and roast and
glaze and bless it so in likeyou mentioned we wanted to tell
the story of some of thesepeople and the methods and how
hard it is to get honey, howhard it is to harvest sesame or

(39:36):
to make tahini. My dad isfeatured in the book, you know
making his olive oil andeverything that goes into it. So
also having this sense ofappreciation of these products
and not like up it's just youknow, it's just olive oil.
What's the big deal you take,you know, olives and you smash
them and you get oil.

And I one of the things that struck me maybe this
is Common knowledge everyone, Ialways thought Zaatar was a
spice blend, I didn't realizethat it was an actual herb and
that was something I learned inyour book.

Yeah, so again, some, you know, fun
educational aspect, you know,Zatara is now you know, kind of,
I wouldn't say a household namebut definitely more similar than
what it was 1015 years ago

and I had a Trader Joe's so you know, get if it's

there, then it's everywhere. I mean, I'm
sure Costco has a half pound ofZatara somewhere. And so yeah,
there's an herb that's you know,part of the marjoram oregano
family and the real blend shouldbe made with this herb you know,
after that the kind of commonlyagreed upon ingredients are

(40:45):
sesame, sumac, a little bit ofsalt. And from that point on,
everybody has their owninterpretation using savory
adding thyme leaves, I've evenseen rosemary, some people leave
it very coarse. Some peoplegrinded very fine. Some people
like it more acidic, differentstyles, if you will, which is
nice. There's their Jordanianversus the Egyptian versus the

(41:08):
Syrian versus the Palestinian.
But yeah, just wanted to tellthe story of the herb that first
there was an herb, then therewas a blend.

Well, I love when I learned something new, even if
it's one thing, but I've I'msure I'm gonna learn so much
from this book. And you alsoincorporated a lot of the spice
blends in there, which I thinkis nice. So for those who don't
have your original books, and Ithink they should, you know,
they're not starting fromscratch, there are some spice
blend recipes in this one aswell.

Yeah, we you know, the kind of tricky part is
to how do we do a book booknumber four. And obviously not
forget the spice portion,because, you know, we are who we
are, and I am who I am. But onthe other hand, not making it
into another spice book. But wewanted to pick kind of those few

(41:56):
very traditional blends inspices of the region. And you
know, make sure that people notonly had recipes with those
blends, but also had the recipeson how to make the blends if
they choose to do so. And

for anyone who's looking to start a culinary
business, because a lot ofentrepreneurs listen to the
show. Do you have any advice foryou know, someone who's an
aspiring culinary entrepreneurwho maybe he wants to not
necessarily start a spice blend,but as maybe a cook or chef
somewhere? What would you tellthem?

The short, slightly non funny answer is get
an accounting software, becauseit's a business, get some duct
tape, because something's goingto break in, just put a website
out there or get a social mediahandle. But that's not the, I'd
say the real thing is to makesure that you have enough

(42:55):
experience, not just in thatarea, but you know,
understanding front of the backof the house, meaning you know,
what it takes to make a product,what it takes to buy, sell price
things, it's a lot of thingsthat I wish I had known. I mean,
I don't regret one bit of myjourney. But I wish I started

(43:18):
with a more professionalapproach from day one of, you
know, reconciling my books and,you know, doing cost control and
setting up processes and thingsthat we're still even 16 years
later working on, you know, withthe team here to adjust. It is a
business and as such, itshouldn't be taken with as much.

(43:39):
You know, I think that beforeyou go and play professional
sport, you do some training, Ithink that's the the easiest
equivalent. So try to work in inas many areas as possible. Get
experience, talk toprofessionals, from your
industry and outside of it.
Surround yourself with the bestpossible him or consultant
people who are better than youwhether they are direct team

(44:03):
members, whether they're anattorney, an accountant, a
financial advisor, when it'simpossible to be good at
everything, you could have agreat knowledge in a lot of
things you do need to know whatdocuments you're signing on. But
at the end of the day, reallysurround yourself with a great
and then I think at the end ofthe day, it's about being

(44:25):
excited about doing this thing.
And I think that if theexcitement, if you're just in it
for I wouldn't say just themoney because there's nothing
wrong with making money. We allwant to you know, be successful,
but that portion of excitementabout whatever it is that you're
doing, and in even if you're notmaking it and I'm saying it with

(44:48):
the utmost respect, it's okay ifyou come up and I wish I could
figure out a way where I don'tneed to manufacture a thing and
somebody else does it. I saluteyou for that and there's you You
know, you don't need to makeeverything or anything, if you
are able to identify amanufacturer that is good and

(45:08):
consistent, and you focus onwhat you're good at, which is
branding, and sales andmarketing, then it's an amazing
concept. You know, andmanufacturing is very difficult
to challenging. I happen to likeit. So I don't, you know, I love
the fact that we do it. But Ithink that could save a lot of
people who are openingbusinesses is this agony, I need

(45:31):
a space and I need machinery, Iinvite you to first to see if
somebody else can make it foryou. There's a risk factor,
you're relying on somebody elseand not you. But you got to kind
of weigh the pros and cons towhat it is.

Well, it's virtually impossible to do every
single thing yourself. And youhad said something earlier about
the things that you'd like to doin business. And that's what I
find is, you know, we all havedifferent things that we enjoy
in the business. I don't knowanyone who likes the accounting
piece, and almost everyone says,find someone to take care of the
accounting piece if you don'twant to do that. But yeah, play
to your strengths. If that'ssomething you like, go deep, if

(46:05):
there's something that you don'tlike, see if you can, you know,
shuffle that off to someoneelse.

Yeah, I think you still need to have a good
and it is your money at the endof the day. So having a great
CPA or accountant, a CFO.
They're here to help andsupport. But, you know, I at
least want to know where mymoney goes and how much I have.

And taking a little shift, I wanted to talk to you
about the Galilee CulinaryInstitute. Can you talk about
that for a couple of minutes?
Because I know that you'reinvolved with that. And that
seems like a really cool thing.
It is

it's probably one of the biggest thing. I
mean, I think everything I do isthis consumes a lot of my time
for the five Mercia so I, as Imentioned earlier announced to
my parents that I wanted to be acook and weren't excited. But
they let me try to do it. Imean, not that I needed their
permission, I just wanted moreof their blessing. And then
three years into cooking inIsrael, I decided that this is

(46:58):
an opportunity. And there wasunfortunately not a whole lot
happening in Israel in terms ofCulinary Education. So I packed
my bags and left for friends.
And I enrolled into a veryprestigious Culinary Institute
and ended up staying five yearsworking there. But pretty much
since that day in 97, more orless, it always kind of was in

(47:20):
the back of my mind is you knowCan Can we do something in
Israel? Can we offer people whocannot afford or cannot just
because of a family orrelationship leave? They can?
Maybe they just don't want toleave the country. So why
shouldn't they be gettingprofessional culinary education
and for a good 20 somethingyears I kept on knocking on

(47:41):
doors, private sectors not forprofit friends. And the response
was pretty much always the samesounds like a great idea, it's
probably never going to work.
But when you do do it, we'd loveto come and see you in which
means nothing. And five years orso ago, I was introduced to by a

(48:01):
friend to an amazing person byname of Russell Robinson, who is
the CEO of Jewish National Fund,which is an amazing organization
that is based on 1000s of verygenerous and super humans around
the country. And that, you know,want to support and one

(48:23):
establish businesses in Israelso that the local communities
have a better chance ineducation and housing and work
opportunities. And I was goingthere with very little
expectation because I've beenturned, you know, around by so
many. And in a matter ofminutes, we shook hands with
Russell and with the JNF teammembers and decided to build the

(48:46):
Galilee Culinary Institute. Wedidn't have a name back then but
now called the Galilee CulinaryInstitute, myself for my own
selfish reasons to you know,bring high end or higher
culinary education to Israel,rethinking education, Jewish
National Fund for their ownreasons, which part of them is
to bring a couple of 100,000people to the Galilee and create

(49:12):
job opportunities and housingand works in education and
medical. And they're doing allof that as we're speaking. We
partnered we I'm excited to saywe have an opening date for May
of 2024. It's an InternationalInstitute that welcomes students
from all ages and all over theworld. Obviously, a higher

(49:35):
education so if you're 678 ornine years old, probably not
relevant for you. But after highschool, let's put it that way.
12 months program in English inIsrael, cooking baking beer
brewing chocolate making cheesefood sales technology, food

(49:55):
styling writing. There's a fouracre farm composting. So I, you
name it, maybe aside from flyfishing, which we might end up
adding to the curriculum. We gotit, not for the sake of making
it a Disney World of sorts ofthe culinary world, but more

(50:18):
about saying, Listen, you and Ihave both seen many people who
are excited about food and tryto make it their profession, and
get burned out, you know, acouple of years if not even
sooner. It's a hard industry.
It's demanding, you gotta loveit. We think that there are
other alternatives within theculinary world, you can be a

(50:41):
food scientist in a lab. Forlarge scale or small scale
manufacturer, you can be a foodwriter, you can be a food
stylist, or you can be a knifemaker. And we are all part of
the same family. So saying, Ilike to make chicken, I'm going
to be a chef, it's might not bethe case for you or for anybody

(51:02):
else. So we want to expose ourstudents to a diverse range of
professions. Now, you're notgoing to graduate as a beer
Brewer or chocolate maker, wewant 12 months later to set you
to the next level of say, Okay,now I know I'm going to work for
chocolate maker, and thenpotentially open my business.

(51:22):
And if you do, not only we wantto give you basic tools of
chocolate, but we also want toknow what a p&l is? Or how do
you deal when your AC breaksdown. And these are things that
are going to happen every day.
So you're bound to be the bestat, you know, chopping tomatoes.

(51:44):
If your POS is done, well guesswhat? You're not selling
anything today. So we want togive the students the tools. We
want to let them know how toexpress themselves, you know,
you know, everybody owns a miniPR company these days, it's your
cell phone. So can you run yourown social media marketing sales

(52:05):
PR company? With yourself? Doyou know how to write a menu, do
you know how to take a goodpicture, and so on and so forth.
So I can go on for hours. It'sone of the most exciting things.
Aside from the fact that it's inthe Galilee. It's about 10
minutes from the village where Iwas born, my parents Farms is

(52:26):
about eight minutes from there.
I am very biased, I think it'sone of the previous regions in
the world. You have caviar 10minutes away, you have about
200, wineries, cheesemaking, andabout 60 or 70 different
ethnicities all within 30 to 40mile range from our institute,

what sounds like an amazing course and they're so
lucky to not have to feel likeif they want to be in the
culinary world have to travelhalfway around the world to go
to another culinary institutesomewhere that they're going to
have one there, you know, if ifthey're of the region, I've
never been anywhere over there.
And it's on my list of placesthat I need to visit, preferably
sooner than later.

Yeah, and I mean, aside from obviously, the
the flagship program, they'regoing to be, you know, shorter,
one day, one hour, one weekprograms, both recreational for
amateurs, but also, forprofessionals. There's a
restaurant on site, anauditorium, a wine bar, a couple
of stores, and so differently,opportunities for tourists and

(53:32):
visitors. domestic andinternational to come and spend
as long or as little as theywish, even if it's just to buy
some, you know, baked goods thatthe students have made. Or if
you want to stay a week and goforaging and fishing, we could
probably accommodate that, too.

I look forward to following the journey. I was
checking out the website andsome of the recipes on there.
And I think it's a you know,people should check that out.
Even if they don't think they'regonna head on over there, too.
You never know one of thecourses you never know. Do you
have anything you want to leaveour listeners with? Before we
get out of here today?

Well, first I want to I really want to thank
you for you know, inviting meand sharing the story of spices
and food and anything inbetween. I'm obviously beyond
excited about this subject. AndI hope that others will be
whether you're professional cookwith or without a restaurant. I

(54:29):
run a very small restaurant. Ihave three guests every day, and
they're that you're

off the show. Oh, wait your kids. Yeah, sure.

Yeah, I have two kids and a wife. And there's
some days where it's not farfrom a restaurant that service
because one child wants this andthe other ones, the ones that
and I think that people arelike, Oh, you're a chef. So it's
easy. I was like I you know, Ithink the big difference between
chefs and home cooks it'sorganization. If you're prepared

(54:58):
and planned and I know someMeeting home cooks that just
figured out that if they planahead, their pantries are well
stocked, they have a great spicerack, they're free, just cooking
is fun. And it should be fun.
And so. And I think that, youknow, people should consider
spices seriously, this same waythat hopefully they do with

(55:20):
food, and just being you know, abit more aware of what it is
that you're consuming. Itdoesn't matter if it's packed,
good prepared. I'm okay witheverything, as long as you are
aware of what you're feedingyourself. I'm okay with that.

And I think really quickly to touch on because you
mentioned kids, I don't know ifsome people have a reluctance to
expose their kids to it, my son,my son's favorite thing is to
put random spices on randomfoods. And he'll just say, you
know, like, Star nice, what isthis? And he'll just take it out
of the pantry, my son's 10. Andhe'll say, Can I crush this and

(55:57):
put it on my taco? Sure, youknow, and I really encourage
that kind of exploration of foodand spices, we have a lazy susan
on our table. And it's mostlyjust cluttered with five or six
different spices, usually,whatever the kids are pulled out
over the past couple days. Andit might be a smoked paprika, it
might be some Chinese Fivespice, a little thing a tahini,

(56:18):
you know, and they're just likeshaking things on their food as
they please. And I love that.
And I wish more people would dothat.

And you're you're better than I am. Because
my kids are, you know, spicesare sadly not part of what
they're even will try. It'sstill a mystery to me. I mean,
we both, you know, had thechance to feed lots of people in
our life, and some moredemanding, and others, my kids
are still the biggest mystery tome. But I stopped fighting it, I

(56:48):
just really just asked them whatit is that they want to eat. Try
to be responsible and you know,limit the amount of snacks and
sugar based items that theywant. And let them make the
decision. I think that you know,I'm not going to fight them over
it. I try to expose them. Andthey're pretty good healthy

(57:08):
eater. Would I like them to eatother things, of course, but I
think it will come with time.

Oh, it definitely comes with time I have twins.
They're 10 years old. And thiswas not overnight. But they
really love spices for whateverreason. And I'm glad for that.
And, and like I said, I justsometimes the combos sound kind
of not good for me. I'm like, Idon't think you want to put that
on there. But you know, go nuts.
If you want to put that on yourpizza. Fine. And that's how you
learn and you know, yeah, we'llsee. Maybe they're gonna make me

(57:35):
dinner tonight. I don't know.

I mean, the student every night, I come home
and it's like, maybe one daythere'll be dinners like nope,
not happening yet. But I'm notcoming I love it's my really my
real therapy cooking if it'safter a very long day, or
whatever day and the sense ofcooking for others, which I hope
I will never lose this. Youknow, it made really makes me

(58:02):
happy to cook for others,whether it's two or 20 or 200

meter. That's why most of us do this, right?
Because it's a it's a toughindustry, the food and beverage.
So if you know if you reallydon't have that passion and
love, you should probably findsomething that maybe you do love

and probably pays better. 100%

Thanks so much for coming on the show today. It was
great to talk to you. I alwayshave time to talk about spices.

Thank you for having me. And for all of our

listeners. This will be coming out soon around
the book. I will link that inthe show notes so you'll be able
to find this book and all theother books. And as always, this
has been Chris with the ChefsWithout Restaurants podcast.
Thanks so much for listening andhave a great week. Go to chefs
without restaurants.org To findour Facebook group, mailing list
and Chef database. The communityis free to join. You'll get gig

(58:52):
opportunities, advice onbuilding and growing your
business and you'll never missan episode of our podcast. Have
a great week.

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