October 5, 2022 • 47 mins
This week’s guest is Jorge Gaviria, founder of Masienda, and author of the new book Masa. On the show, you’re going to get the Masienda origin story, and find out why it all started with the corn. Jorge explains nixtimalization, which is the process of turning corn into masa, and how to nixtamilaze and grind your own corn at home.
For those who just want to buy the masa harina, I asked him about water temperature, hydration, and the differences between the corn types. We also talk about brand partnerships, as Masienda has teamed up with companies like Jacobsen Salt Co., Made In, and Hayden Flour Mills.
But I f there’s anything I would like you to get out of this episode, it’s that making tortillas at home is so easy. If you love tacos and Mexican food you should order a bag of Masienda masa harina right now.
MASIENDA AND JORGE GAVIRIA
Buy the book Masa
Masienda Website
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Maienda YouTube Channel
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Chris Spear (01:19):
Tortillas. Sopes.
Tamales. Pupusas. None of thesewould be possible without one
thing. Corn, but morespecifically, masa. I'm Chris
spear. And this is Chefs WithoutRestaurants. The show where I
speak with culinaryentrepreneurs and people working
in the food and beverageindustry outside of a
traditional restaurant setting.
(01:41):
Today's guest is Jorge Gaviria,founder of Masienda, and author
of the new book, Masa. If you'veever seen any of my blog posts
or cooking videos, or maybeyou've hired me to cook for you,
you know how much I love,tortillas, tacos and all things
masa. That's why I was soexcited to have Jorge on the
podcast this week. I've beenbuying masa harina from Messina
for a few years now. But Jorgedidn't start there. In the
(02:04):
beginning, it was just corn. Hewent to Mexico to find the best
corn and wanted to be able toship it to restaurants who would
then be making their own matzahin house. Actually, he really
thought he was going to open upa tortilleria. But found out
that was going to be a much morechallenging endeavor. So on the
show, you're gonna get theorigin story of mossy panda. And
I made sure that Jorge gave alittle overview about an
(02:25):
externalization, which is theprocess of turning corn into
masa. We're only going to touchon that. But if you'd really
like to get an in depth lookabout the first 100 or so pages
of his book, really dig intoeverything from corn anatomy to
comb, owls, a masa timeline, andeven how to nixtamal eyes and
grind your own corn at home. Andfor those who just want to buy
(02:46):
the masa harina, I asked himabout things like water
temperature, hydration, and thedifferences between the corn
types. I also want to talk tohim about brand partnerships,
because Masienda has teamed upwith a lot of companies like
Jacobson Salt Co, Made in andHayden Flour Mills. So I want to
see how those relationships cameabout. But if there's anything
I'd like you to get out of thisepisode, it's that making
(03:06):
tortillas at home is so easy.
And I think if you love tacos,you should definitely be doing
this. I've found that this isone of the best things you can
do with kids. I mean, unlessthey don't like tacos, right?
But this is one of those thingsthat my kids really get excited
about, you know, I'll make thedough and then my son will roll
the balls, my daughter willpress them on the press and then
I'll put them on the griddle. Soif you're someone who likes
(03:27):
Mexican food and anything that'smade with masa, just go on the
masina website and order somemasa harina I think you're
really going to be pleased andkind of surprised at how easy
this is, if you've never done itbefore. I have never next
symbolizes mountain corn. AndJorge has me thinking that maybe
that's something I should try.
I'll let you know how that goes.
And of course I love connectingwith people in my community and
(03:49):
audience. So find me onInstagram at Chefs Without
Restaurants, and go tochefswithoutrestaurants.org. To
get more information on how ourorganization is helping food
entrepreneurs build and growtheir businesses. You can get
links to the private Facebookgroup, sign up for our
newsletter, and get in ourdatabase so I can help personal
chefs caterers and food truckoperators get more leads.
(04:43):
Hey, welcome to the show. Thanksso much for coming on.
Jorge Gaviria (05:27):
Thanks so much for having me.
Chris Spear (05:28):
I'm excited to talk to you. I've been trying to get
you on the show for actually acouple of years. Now you might
not have even known but wellbefore you even had a book out.
So I'm actually kind of gladthat it didn't work out earlier
on, because now we can talkabout this book you have. So
you're just coming off of a booktour, I was lucky enough to see
you in DC. So thanks for comingthrough and talking to us.
jor (05:48):
Of course, yeah, it's great to see you and finally put a
face to the name.
Chris Spear (05:51):
So for all of our listeners, this is going to be
all about masa, tortillas andthe like today. So I want to
kind of start with yourbackground like food. Are you
someone who always grew up?
Loving Food? I mean, some peoplelove food, some tone, some are,
you know, I was a little fat kidin the kitchen. Did you? And did
you end up working inrestaurants? Like what's kind of
your background and relationshipwith food?
jor (06:14):
Yeah, I grew up definitely loving food had a strong passion
for it early inclination to justlike think about it all the
time. And then I mean, I justgrowing up in Miami, my dad is
an attorney or was an attorney.
And I kind of just plan on goingdown the same path and
everything was sort of like,seemed like all the all the
(06:36):
stars were aligned to go, youknow, down the same route. And
then I decided, like sometimeafter graduating from college,
and I taught for two years andin Brooklyn, I was like, you
know, I was ready to go to lawschool. And actually, like,
wasn't that ready. Like, therewas just something kind of
blocking me and I read a book byDanny Meyer, who was sort of a,
(06:58):
an early hero of mine. And heyou know, he talked about not
going to law school and insteadgoing to, you know, live in
Italy and kind of work, youknow, work around Italy for a
year before getting into therestaurant business. And I was
like, This is my reason. This ismy excuse to do exactly the same
thing. And so showed my dad thebook, I was like, this is this
(07:20):
is my plan. I It's a planwithout a plan. I'm just gonna
go to Italy, and I'm gonna farmfor a year and then figure out
what happens. And he's like,Well, you know, it's so funny.
Your grandfather, my dad was inthe restaurant business. I was
like, I thought he was anattorney. And he's like, he was
an attorney. But he actually wasmore passionate about food and
ended up doing food for hismajority of its life, which I
(07:42):
had no idea. We were not thatclose. So it was interesting to
hear that it was sort of likealready in my DNA, you know,
and, you know, I had sort of thefamily blessing. So I worked in
Italy for a year I did a farmingand butchering apprenticeship
out there and then came back, Iworked for Danny Meyer, as a
cook at one of his restaurantsin Manhattan called Maialino. I
(08:04):
then worked at Blue Hill atStone barns and Blue Hill in New
York. And it was when I was atBlue Hill that I started to
think about kind of, you know,just the relationship I had with
food, my values as a consumer,you know, had evolved a lot
since I was a kid. And the foodsthat I grew up eating, you know,
in a Latin household, to mehadn't really like reflected
(08:26):
those changes that I was seeingin real time at these farm to
table restaurants. And I justthought that the sourcing could
be more thoughtful in the storyand approach. And I just wanted
to see those foods I grew upeating more thoughtfully
represented in you know, in thegrocery store, and you know, and
supply chain. So I kind of setout to build that platform, and
I started with masa.
Chris Spear (08:47):
Was there a template for you to follow at
the time was anyone doing anyreally good high quality masa
out there,
Jorge Gaviria (08:53):
no one was doing really good high quality masa,
which I thought was interesting.
I was, you know, just kind ofblown away by this thing. You
know, like, I could have atortilla, I could have tortilla
chips, tamales, and actuallydon't like tomatoes as much.
It's like one secret about me.
But you know, all of these foodsthat I love, I was just kind of
blown away by the fact that noneof them. Very few folks could
(09:17):
tell me kind of the story andthe process that went into
making them and I was just kindof curious about that
relationship. The more I kind ofunderstood it, the more I was
like, Oh, my goodness, this issuch a rich, you know, staple in
so many ways. If only peopleknew more about it. I think you
know, Rancho Gordo had beendoing this for beans for a
while. I thought that was reallycompelling. Anson Mills was
(09:39):
doing it for kind of southernforget what he calls them like
antebellum you know, great. Ithink that's the word he uses.
Yeah, it's very specific. Andthen, for me, I was like, I
think this needs to be done formasa and the idea was actually
to start Dorthea Yeah, like atortilla factory. Kinda like at
Tartine bakery was my idea. AndI was like, this is going to be
(10:01):
half the theater. And it's goingto sort of really show people
how much work and love goes intomaking tortillas and masa. But I
just, I couldn't, I think onepiece that was missing for me,
it's not like I had a lease oranything like that. But the one
other piece that was missing forme was that I couldn't, I
couldn't quite land on like,what was the right supply chain?
What was the right rawingredient to start with,
(10:22):
there's plenty of corn in theUS, but none of it was really
kind of doing justice to thestaple of masa, like I felt like
it needed to be. And that's whenI started looking in Mexico, for
solutions and supply chainanswers to that, that problem.
When was this? That was 2013,when I started doing research,
and then 2014, is when I startedto actually work in Mexico to,
(10:46):
to find solutions on the ground.
And it turns out that folks hadbeen doing a lot of this sort of
supply chain preservation, thatcomes with heirloom corn. You
know, there's about 3 millionsmallholder farmers in Mexico
that do this, you know, justthey preserve the world's
genetic supply of corn. It'sbasically like an open seed
bank, you know, in the, in thefields, and, you know, the
(11:09):
various regions of Mexico, it'slike a living, breathing
seedbank. And you these are,traditionally they're a little
older farmers, they are folkswho are certainly needing,
needing some support, and kindof some additional resources
for, you know, offloading anysurplus materials they have,
(11:29):
which became very hard tocompete with commodity corn, you
know, especially after NAFTA. Sothere was like, a real impact
opportunity there. And there hadbeen folks who had been doing
doing the work of documentingthese landrace, heirloom corn
varieties, and, you know,working with farmer populations
to improve them, and throughnatural, sort of, like, you
know, breeding practices. And,you know, what they just needed
(11:53):
was a market for it. And so Ijust a light bulb went off, I
was like, This is it, this isthe way to, to kind of explore
building a supply chain, and youknow, the rest, the rest is kind
of history.
Chris Spear (12:06):
How was the reception when you went down
there? Because I'm sure there'sa lot of people who come from
the US, you know, businesses godown there kind of exploit these
people, were they kind of weary,or were they welcoming, when you
came down and started to kind ofexplore this process?
Jorge Gaviria (12:19):
It's interesting, I think, there were definitely
some communities that had beenburned, not even by foreigners,
but by folks within theircommunity who said that they
would take the corn onconsignment, you know, it's a
lot of work, corn is verycumbersome, you know, like a 50
pound bag of corn takes up agood amount of space. And, you
know, if you've got several bagsof this, and you want to go take
(12:42):
it to a market, and you're gonnahave to figure out
transportation for that, you'regonna have to figure out like a
market stall, it's quite costlyto bring to market for these
subsistence based growers. And alot had been burned in that
process where they would say,you know, neighbor would be
like, Oh, let me go take this onconsignment for you, and then
they'd never come back withmoney. Or, you know, they, they
(13:05):
short them on the payment. Andso I think that was actually
mostly the kind of the thoughtprocess that happened for some,
not all of them. It wasn'tactually about being a
foreigner, I think they werejust sort of more entertained
than anything about the factthat a foreigner would want corn
to export to the US, which isthe largest producing corn
country in the world, by a long,very long shot. So yeah, I think
(13:30):
there was sort of just acuriosity, a little bit of
skepticism about just a modellike, you know, an equitable
model in general. But very soonafter starting, you know, I
think word got out that this wasan option, and the price was
right, and people were gettingpaid immediately. And, you know,
I think it sort of one thing ledto another and it built a lot of
(13:50):
trust in the communities that westarted in and then that we grew
into
Chris Spear (13:54):
when you started this, were you talking to chefs
and people like, was there aninterest? Did you know that
there was going to be a marketfor this? Or was it a hunch, and
just like, something you hopedwould happen?
Jorge Gaviria (14:06):
I honestly was really fully invested in this
idea of opening my own tortilla.
Yeah. So it wasn't actuallyuntil I got to Mexico and I
realized, just like how muchwork it was going to take to
build the supply chain alonethat I was I kind of took a step
back from the tortilleria ideaand was, you know, like,
Alright, how do we build thesupply chain with a ready to go
market? And it was really naive.
(14:31):
I mean, honestly, I got lucky. Iworked in the restaurant
industry and was still had my,you know, one foot in it at that
time, from a restaurant like Iwas actually working in Blue
Hills still. And so I reachedout to a couple folks who had a
relationship with Mexican food.
And you know, it just sohappened that Enrique Olvera who
had I literally checked his coatat Blue Hill. It was such a, it
(14:53):
was such a random connection.
But I reached out to him andsaid, Hey, I think you It sounds
like you're opening up arestaurant in a couple of
months. I'm actually going to besourcing this corn for a
tortilla Ria, I'm starting, butwas wondering if you wanted to,
you know, buy any corn and youcan, you know, do this whole
process, you know, build amassive program in your in your
(15:15):
restaurant, and he was like, youknow, it's actually amazing
timing. That's, uh, that's myplan. I just need really good. I
need great corn for that. And wehaven't really figured that out.
And I was like, oh, man, this isamazing. This is too good to be
true. And like, you know, justso happened like he Sean Brock,
you know, had been going throughthe same process. He was opening
(15:36):
up Mineiro at the time when hewas still with the neighborhood.
That neighborhood
Chris Spear (15:40):
group neighborhood that yeah, that sounds right
down in Charleston. Yeah.
Jorge Gaviria (15:44):
You know, taco Maria was opening up wanted to
do the same thing. CarlosSalgado was interested you had
Rosie Oh, Sanchez, who wasleaving no money to go open up
her own place. Like it was kindof this perfect storm of high
profile chefs wanting to open uptheir own concepts around masa.
And kind of like unchartedterritory, at least in the US
(16:06):
like nobody. And you know, thiskind of fine dining, really,
like no restaurants had had veryfew had really publicly ever
kind of like, gone out of theirway to source and produce masa
from scratch. And so there wasjust kind of like a moment that
we were all sort of waiting tosee like how it would be
received. If there was a realtranslation kind of, from from
(16:31):
kind of that farm to tableexperience for masa. And sure
enough, like critics took note,guests took note. And the more
kind of notoriety andcelebration that these
restaurants got, the more therewas an interest in trying to
replicate what they did to makesuch excellent masa.
Chris Spear (16:49):
And we didn't have I mean, I don't know at the
time, there weren't that manyhigh end finer dining, like
Mexican restaurants in the US,not that I can really think of
Jorge Gaviria (17:00):
before this sort of like, quote, unquote, modern
Mexican movement got startedaround honestly, 2014 with
postman and Bejan, and, youknow, taco, Medea and many
others. You know, it was sort ofthe authentic Mexican movement.
And what's interesting aboutthat movement, and this was sort
of really punctuated by like,you know, certainly Rick
(17:21):
Bayless, probably the posterchild of that movement and did
so much to educate consumers onyou know, just what real Mexican
food should be or looks like.
Tastes like and you don't thinkthat there was you know, Rosa
Mexicano? Roberta 71 years,like, there were, there were
examples of this, but nobody wasmaking masa and house. It was
just it was sort of considered adaunting process really kind of,
(17:45):
like highly technical,difficult, you know, from from
an access standpoint, like,where do you get the corn and,
you know, again, corn, corn issort of cumbersome, it's a bit
dense, like, where do you storethe corn in a small New York
City restaurant? So like, youknow, how do you mill it? Like,
these were all questions thathad no one had ever really
needed to figure it out? Becausethere was no, there was no, I
(18:07):
think, like marketplace tocreate a solution for it. And
also, it was just sort of wherewe were in the evolution of, you
know, our kind of activeconsumption, you know, it was
like, it was a big enough stepto do a Malay from scratch, you
know, versus getting a paste or,you know, buying masa from a
local Dorthea. That was enough,you know, that was sort of just
(18:31):
where the starting point was.
And it just the conversationjust kept evolving.
Chris Spear (18:36):
I'm fortunate enough to say that I was
actually literally the firsttable sat at cozmic. On opening
night. I feel it was so cool.
And so weird. I was like thefirst one. So at one point, I
was like, sitting in literallylike an empty dining room. No
way. Yeah, I was in town for thestar chefs Conference, which is
in October, and I just rememberseeing, like, you know,
(18:57):
something popped up that like,reservations are now open. I was
like, Oh, wow, I'll be in NewYork, because I don't live in
New York. And I made areservation. I got like the 530
reservation. It's funny becauseEnrique did like a mainstage
demo that night, and I saw himlike two hours before and I was
there for that. Were you. So Iwas like, Chef, like I'm eating
in your restaurant. Two hours.
Like, are you? Are you going tobe there tonight? But yeah, I
(19:20):
managed to stay for his talk andthen hightail it across town and
sat down. So I also joked that Ithink I was the first person to
probably Instagram that cornhusk Marang that became like,
the viral dish for that year.
Yeah. That's
jor (19:32):
so funny, man. That's wild.
What a time if that was. Yeah,it was a moment. But it wasn't
until Pete Wells wrote hisreview that I think like, I
think they were some skepticism.
You know, like it was a it wasan outsider, you know, wasn't a
local New York chef. We'd seen alot of folks fail. You know,
like, there's some high profilechefs who came in to New York
(19:54):
from out of town and justcouldn't it didn't land but
yeah, because they just crushedit. And it just set up a real
kind of opportunity for othersto jump in and made masa look
really good. And I'd
Chris Spear (20:07):
also say, you know, like Alex do packs book tacos
that that was kind of when Ireally got interested in making
tortillas at home. I mean, I'mnot Nick symbolizing my own corn
but just like using good masaand that's kind of what led me
to you is okay, I'm gonna makethese tacos. Sure I can go buy,
you know, my steak in thegrocery store. But what's out
there? And that's, I think how Ifound you, you know, you kind of
(20:30):
still knew at the time, I don'tremember when that book came
out. And that kind of led medown the rabbit hole of like,
really awesome masa.
Jorge Gaviria (20:37):
Oh, I love that.
Yeah. 2015 I think is when thatcame out. And yeah, I mean,
Alex, Alex was like, I mean,honestly, I think he really
created a space in New York foreven just the conversation of
modern Mexican food, which, youknow, for he's he's, he's self
self deprecating about it, youknow, I'm just like a white guy
from from from Massachusetts.
(20:59):
But he really like, I mean, heinvited Enrique to one of his
first push projects, you know,which was sort of these guest
chef appearances that you woulddo and really think outside the
box about Mexican cuisine. And,you know, a lot of credit goes
to him for just tinkering andcreating a space for for kind of
the evolution of Mexican food,certainly in New York, but
obviously, as a as a canvas forthe country.
Chris Spear (21:21):
What was your product line when you started?
Were you just selling corn andall this stuff to have people
make their own masa? Or did youstart with like masa harina as
well? What was that timeframelike,
Jorge Gaviria (21:32):
literally just selling? Well, at that time, it
was 170 155 pound bags of corn,because I thought it was cheaper
to a was cheaper. I was like,oh, I'll just double the amount
in one bag and just spendbasically money on one bag.
Except I didn't realize like,you know, you had to lift that.
And I was one who was makingdeliveries in those early days.
So it was a little bit it was alittle bit tough. But it was
(21:55):
just corn. And, you know,finally figured out that 55
pounds was a more appropriatebag size. And then it really
kind of just was a slowevolution. I mean, there were,
there were places you could buycow, I recommended those places
to folks and just really focusedon the corn. And then over time,
(22:15):
you know, as the kind of theteam expanded and my bandwidth
expanded, we started to kind oftake on other supply chains and
other kinds of opportunitiesbetween, you know, the cow to
mattina just finding the rightplace to do that to, you know,
all of the range of things we dotoday. Milling equipment, like
that was a really big one thetime it was just so expensive
(22:35):
for these restaurants to getstarted, you know, making masa
and house like you had to waitsix to nine months to get a mill
from like one of like threeplaces in the United States that
would make it just like a reallyout dated system for buying the
machinery. And we ended upcreating a solution for that,
like a tabletop mill solutionthat uses basalt stones just
(22:56):
basically shrunken down, whichhas just been completely
amplified the conversation andyou know, there's now 1000s of
home cooks around the world thatdo this with equipment that just
wasn't available at that timewhen I started.
Chris Spear (23:10):
Well, I want to circle back to that because that
is something we're talkingabout. Can we go back to a
little bit? You wrote the book,literally called masa and
there's so much info. So muchgreat reading. But for our
listeners who maybe don't haveas much of a background on this,
can you give us like a Cliff'sNotes version on what masa is
(23:30):
and kind of like the nextcivilization process like for
people who don't understand whatyou're doing to the corn to get
it to that point where it's masaor muscle Reena?
jor (23:39):
Yeah, so masa is the Spanish word for dough. In this
context, you know, certainly inMexico and other parts of of
modern day Mesoamerica evenparts of South America masa,
more specifically refers to acorn dough. And that corn is
special because it's gonethrough an alkaline treatment,
which is sounds like moreintimidating than it actually
(24:00):
is. It just means that it's beencooked in some water with a
little dash of like alkaline youknow, powder. In this case,
calcium hydroxide is what's mostcommonly used. And that just
basically means it helps breakdown the corn and it makes it
nutritious so you don't need toworry too much about what
happens unless you are curiousand you can read the book. But
(24:20):
you know, the the main gist ofit is that it's really special.
It's kind of this it's reallyalchemy, what happens to corn
when it when it is treated inthis alkaline solution. And that
that process is called anexternalization. So yeah, masa
is the result of that you takethe corn that's been cooked in,
in that alkaline water, it'ssoaked in that alkaline water,
(24:42):
the science and kind of miracleof externalization has happened
to it. And then you rinse it offand you grind it in some way or
another. So if you're working athome, you can use a you know,
Cuisinart food processor, youcan use a hand mill, which is
what I would recommend if you dodidn't want to make that kind of
that big leap investment intomore detail. You can use it the
(25:04):
salt Molina like the mojito.
Basically, you're just going tokind of get that down into a
dough. And at that point, it'scalled masa.
Chris Spear (25:12):
So do you think that's realistic for someone
who's maybe an amateur cook athome? Like they don't have plans
to do this as a business, just arecreational thing? I mean, I
think people have gotten used todoing more intricate things at
home, people are doingfermentation at home, they're
messing with koji. They're doingsourdough, how realistically
easy would this be like, I'venever done it? Is this something
(25:33):
I should jump in and try?
jor (25:35):
Totally, I mean, even if just wants to kind of relate to
how magical of a process it is,like, I actually think it's way
more straightforward thanfermentation or breadmaking.
Like, I find those far moreintimidating, just, you know,
gases and like explosions. Andyou know, I don't know, just
like, it seems, it's literallymore volatile to me. But yeah, I
(25:59):
think it's really fun. That'show I started honestly, it was
just sort of understanding kindof what that process looked
like. And when I got to know it,I just have like, a deeper
reverence for for it, you know,it doesn't mean that I do it all
the time. In fact, like, youknow, I use my sadena Most of
the time now. Because it's,there's a solution for it, it's
an it doesn't skimp on thequality. You know, it will
(26:22):
certainly, like I said, deepenthe connection and respect you
have for it and the culture isbehind it. And I think that
that's as good a reason as anyto, to give it a shot, even if
you don't do it forever.
Chris Spear (26:34):
And I don't think people necessarily realize how
easy it is to make tortillas ormasa based products, especially
if you're using the muscleReena, like, it's literally two
ingredients, usually right likethat, and water and I tell
people all the time, like, youlove tacos, why aren't you
making them like buy a bag ofthis stuff, add water, and there
you go, right? Like, you don'teven have to have a tortilla
(26:55):
price. You can roll it out, youcan do all kinds of things. It's
just a two ingredient. And oneof them is water that you
already have. But I think peopleare still so intimidated just to
even make tortillas at home. AndI don't know why. So it's
something I've been preachingfor a couple of years. And I'm
always providing them resources,quite often, many of years to
get them started on the tortillamaking mode.
jor (27:16):
Thank you. Yeah, I think if there's any place to start,
that's it. You know, like, it's,it's shockingly easy. There is
like zero science, you don'teven need to worry about it. You
literally add water, you form adough into whatever shape you
want. And like it's magical,it's it is such a different
experience, the payoff is sobig. That work is so little. And
(27:40):
it's it's it changes yourrelationship with food for sure.
Chris Spear (27:45):
And I'm always trying to eke out the best
results. So I have a coupletechnical questions, and maybe
they're, you know, it doesn'tmatter but water temperature, is
there a specific watertemperature for when you're
mixing? And then two, should yoube resting your toe? Do you have
opinions on these questions?
jor (28:04):
I think that warm water is really nice. Just because it you
know, it just sort of likeactivates the masa it starts to
smell really good. It kind ofjust blooms the flavor a little
bit, just like tap warm water,you know, like nothing crazy.
And it kind of just mimics whatit feels like when it's coming
(28:26):
off the stones. You know, it'slike quite warm, because of the
friction that stones create oncethey're being kind of they're
grinding against one another.
It's just nice. It kind ofrecreates that experience that
fresh fresh masa so resting timeyou know, I was just talking to
Rick Bayless about this we did alittle video together he likes
to rest it I don't I don't it'sinteresting to think about I
(28:49):
never really thought about itthat much. From a resting
perspective. I just want to makesure that the the masa is wet to
touch but like not sticky andhonestly I think that after
resting it I ended up needing toadd a little more water to it
because masa dries out so fastthat you know I it's kind of six
one by half a dozen the other tome.
Chris Spear (29:12):
I don't even seen people like vacuum seal it like
they do pasta dough. So likespeed up hydration of hydration
was an issue if this is justlike overcomplicating things.
jor (29:21):
Yeah, it's definitely overcomplicating it. I think if
you take like a baker's approachto masa, you could give yourself
a headache.
Chris Spear (29:29):
Now, can your masa harina be used interchangeably
with any recipe you find outthere? You know, there's a
recipe for tamales and it'susing my sake assuming you don't
have your product. Is it like aone for one switch?
jor (29:44):
Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, for tamales specifically.
There's like quite a few campson how folks you know, approach
it. There's some you know, somereally like kind of like a
grittier, coarser masa for theManas. I don't, I think I
mentioned earlier I don't reallylove them and so it's not my
favorite way to enjoy masa. It'skind of just the texture for me,
(30:06):
but, but Yeah, certainly everyrecipe that I wrote in the book,
you know, between thetraditional recipe shapes, you
know, Master shapes that youfind throughout Latin America to
the modern masa recipes, you canuse, you can use mass Idina for
all of that. It's allinterchangeable. And in fact,
it's really cool to kind of witha new appreciation, go back to
(30:27):
some of these classic Mexicancookbooks and just, you know,
approach it with either homemademasa or masa, Idina have a
higher quality than what'srecommended in those because I
think most were like, oh, yeah,just use my Seco. But there were
so few options when a lot ofthese books were written.
Chris Spear (30:43):
Yeah, I have a friend who makes proposals. She
actually used to have a pusafood truck. And she taught me
and my family how to make thembut she was using my Seca. And I
didn't know like, she gave me arecipe. And of course, actually,
she's not using a recipe, right?
She's doing it by touch, but I'mnot at that point. So I started
looking at recipes online, andwas just wondering, oh, could I
take this, you know, my standardproduct I have and just swap it
in. And I hadn't tried that yet.
(31:06):
So knowing that we're totallyready to make proposals with it
at home, because it's become oneof my family's favorite things
to eat. No, that's awesome.
Yeah, and the book is great. Imade space for the first time
last week, I don't know why I'venever done it before just hadn't
gotten around to it, but uh,decided to take a crack at that.
And they came out pretty good,
jor (31:23):
right, like, so easy, so satisfying. I think like I just
rediscovered my love for soap asin the last couple of weeks,
even which is so fun about justall the shapes in general, there
really is like a different shapeand texture and kind of flavor
for every every occasion. And Imade
Chris Spear (31:41):
the masa cookies, which were great. Even though I
freestyle that a little bit, Iprobably need to go back I
usually when I try a recipe forthe, for the first time, usually
make it by the book. But thisone, I just had different
ingredients on hand, it didn'twant to go to the store. So I
kind of winged it, but I wasreally happy with how they came
out. And I'll probably go backand make it like by the book
(32:01):
next time, but I was reallyhappy to see that in there.
jor (32:04):
I'm nervous to deviate, especially on pastry related,
you know, foods and like a likea cookie. But yeah, just
Stephens, the chef who put thatone together is just like so, so
talented. And it. I'm not even afan of of sweets, honestly. And
that one, that one definitelyconverted me.
Chris Spear (32:21):
So we've touched on a little bit, you've got a book,
I'd love to hear about the book,how did the book come about? Was
it just time to write thedefinitive book on masa?
jor (32:31):
That's it in a nutshell. I mean, you know, it's, I think it
was a natural evolution of justwhat I was doing day to day. And
and I think the funny thing isthat when I started my CNN 2014
I was just looking into some ofmy heroes, you know, in the
culinary universe, and just thefact that this food would really
(32:52):
humble them, and they didn'thave answers, you know, and they
were just, it wasn't like, theycould read some book on it and
go to work. Like, it was a lotof trial and error. And of
course, like, you know, being apurveyor of kind of the raw
ingredients, it was up to me tokind of to really help guide
that experience. So I had tolearn and guide at the same
(33:14):
time. And I just kind of got toa point where, you know, it's
just thinking to myself, it'scrazy. Like, we're sharing so
many notes, and there's so muchkind of knowledge we're
accumulating here. You know,this is a largely oral
tradition. How much more wouldfolks dive into this? If there
was something actually really,you know, written on this
(33:34):
subject, you know, more thanlike a blog post on the
internet, or, you know, aYouTube video? And yeah, I think
it was just sort of one step ledto another we did a small little
like primer booklet, you know,shorts, that kind of thing. I
have that.
Chris Spear (33:48):
The next small book. Yeah, yeah. Thank
jor (33:50):
you, man. You heard like, way early on all this stuff.
You're, you're ahead of thegame. But yeah, we we did that.
And that was the demand wascrazy. I mean, more folks just
kept ordering it, we kind of wedid several printings of it. And
then at some point, I was justlike, Alright, I think the
questions aren't being answeredanymore. You know, people are
asking for more. And there wasjust so much more to say. So,
(34:13):
you know, timing wise, I thinkthat the market had kind of
evolved to make a book like masapossible. I knew that there was
a real movement behind it. Andyou know, what was really
missing was a text to kind ofbring it all together. So that
was a that was it. I got thebook greenlit. Honestly, like in
March 2020, just before thepandemic got started. And it was
(34:35):
a great thing to do during thepandemic, just sit down and
write.
Chris Spear (34:39):
I guess that gives you a lot of time to work on, we
all had time that we weren'texpecting to have. So I guess
kind of a blessing in some ways,at least, I'm sure you had a lot
less going on than normal.
jor (34:49):
It was, you know, in some ways, it was the craziest time
because we were trying to pivotthe business to be more friendly
to get into the home cook inhome consumer. But in other
ways, it was just it was great,you know, like to get, you know,
the, I think the experiencerounded out for a home cook like
a cookbook is, is just speaksthat language, you know from
start to finish. So it was itwas very complimentary of of
(35:12):
kind of the direction thebusiness was headed and also
just kind of very cathartic tolook back and put all these
words and thoughts and kind ofdata points together in an
organized way that people couldfollow.
Chris Spear (35:23):
Did you see an uptick from the home consumer
during COVID? You know, we talka lot about everyone was baking
bread. But did you see also thatpeople were really interested in
making tortillas while they werehome?
jor (35:34):
Completely? Yeah, I mean, it's so funny, just doing this
book tour over the last coupleof weeks, the amount of folks
who came in and said, Man, Istarted working with your
product during pandemic, youknow, and that's when we
launched our mass it now that'swhen we launched our tortilla
press, like we really, you know,it was just a perfect moment of
user adoption. And for sure, Imean, at that time, restaurants
(35:59):
weren't open for a while and weare actually stuck, we're gonna
go out of business, but it'scrazy. I mean, the pandemic
panic, purchasing was a realthing. But what's crazy is that
it's stuck. You know, peoplereally loved that experience,
they really connected moredeeply with that, with that
staple that they probably tookfor granted before and you know,
like me, once you once you tasteit, there's really no going
(36:22):
back. Like, everything elsesucks.
Chris Spear (36:26):
That is true. For sure. Yeah. What are the
differences in the four that yousell? Like, how do you know what
to use? Or is it just playingaround? Like, if you want to
make a soap a you know, do youreach for the blue, the white,
the yellow, the red? Do you haveany guidance on that when
selecting what? masa harina touse,
jor (36:48):
I wish I could really give you a more like thought. I mean,
there's what I don't want tocomplicate it, I think like, at
the end of the day, it's sort ofwhatever, whatever your your
tastes and preferences at thatmoment, like, color is
definitely the kind of we eatwith our eyes. So whatever is
looking most appetizing to yougo for it, you know, there's
also a whole world out there ofpeople mixing colors together
(37:12):
and kind of making a tie dyeeffect or, you know, like these
really beautiful patterns. So Ithink like, it doesn't matter,
you can make a really delicioussorbet or Dorthea from any of
these things, tomatoes from anyof these things. There are like
slight flavor sort ofvariations, but like, at the end
of the day, they all taste likeexcellent masa, you know, so
(37:32):
it's just sort of like basictasting notes. It's not as
drastic as like, you know, let'ssay different kinds of breads,
maybe
Chris Spear (37:43):
like rye bread from a sourdough or something
jor (37:45):
like that. Grapes. I mean, like, we use that analogy a lot,
where it's like, oh, you know,this is sort of these corn has
terroir, just like wine, and itdoes, but it's not as like, it's
not as, I don't know, off thecharts, you know, different
like, different DNA grapes grownacross the world, they're gonna
taste pretty wildly differentfrom each other. You know,
(38:07):
compared to corn, there aredefinitely variations but like,
when we're talking about Mexico,we're already kind of refining
that, like that sourcinglocation already to a pretty
specific part of the world. Youknow, then even further than
that, we're getting kind ofcorns that are specifically
suitable for masa. So they'reall very complimentary, and you
(38:28):
can't go wrong. But yeah, somefight some slight fake flavor
variations, like the yellow forexample, has like to me, some
some, I mean, he shares betacarotene, right. So it's, that's
what kind of gives it thatyellowy pigmentation to it. And
that's something that's commonlyfound in carrots and butternut
squash. And so I find thatthere's some kind of notes of
(38:50):
that there but still absolutelytastes like masa you know, in
corn. Same thing with the whiteyou know, the White comes from a
white little do it has that kindof like movie theater buttered
popcorn flavor to it, it's justlike very richly, corny, in the
right ways with like, a nicesort of like mouthfeel fat to
it, that to me, like just meansthat the flavor lingers a little
(39:12):
bit longer on your palate, andthen the red and the blue. For
me, the flavor is excellent.
There's sort of a neediness toit, even like a light sweetness
to it. But, you know, at the endof the day, the texture is just
like impossibly soft of those,those, the monster that comes
off of it. So, you know, I thinkyou won't go wrong. Try them
all.
Chris Spear (39:34):
And I've mixed them based on you know, I've got like
a quarter cup of blue in thebag, and then I have a new bag
of white and it's just like, mixthem together.
jor (39:43):
Totally. You can totally do that. And it'll still yield the
same. It's not like you'remixing like double zero flour.
It's not it's not a question ofthe thickness, you know, or the
grind. It's it's truly just atthat point flavor.
Chris Spear (39:56):
And I think collaborations are great and
you've worked with some reallygreat companies like Jacobson,
salt made in Hayden flower, howdo you go about selecting the
businesses that you want to workwith? Because you know, that
represents you as much asanything you do? I think so how
did you choose those brands thatyou wanted to collab with?
jor (40:17):
I mean, I think they're, they're all brands that we
respect as doing similar thingsfor their respective, you know,
staples, so Jacobson, big fan ofthe quality of salts that they
make, and just as a consumer,really enjoy them. So it's just
fun to kind of bring my ownpersonal, like, pride preference
(40:38):
is to light and this way
Chris Spear (40:40):
through, like, you prefer to put worms in their
salt.
jor (40:43):
Yeah, I was like, man, I've just like, who does great salt,
you know, like, when you whenyou, when you think about, like,
you know, what are the optionsout there, Jacobsen is like the
one that comes to mind, it's thebest. So it's like, let's try
this with some, some, you know,like bringing a delicacy in
Mexico to life using one of myfavorite salts there is and, you
know, that was just, it's stillone of my favorite
(41:04):
collaborations we've done, youknow, made into such a great
job, they're really kind of atthat intersection of
craftsmanship and kind ofculinary experience. And, you
know, blue carbon steel, like,they just have such a great
supply chain for that greatproduction partners. And it just
said something new about theproduct that we knew and cared
about as a Komal. So, you know,it's just, they're, they're,
(41:26):
they're logical in a lot ofways. Like, they're just again,
like, brands that I love andwill, you know, kind of dream
about working with one day andthen that comes to life?
Chris Spear (41:35):
And how important is it to have a Komal versus,
you know, a cast iron pan, Iactually use a baking steel on
my stove is like a big flat topfor that. So what are your
thoughts on cooking, just like abasic tortilla?
jor (41:47):
Yeah, you know, I think that you can use whatever you
got, you want to make sure it'slike as close to a nonstick
surface as possible, so that youdon't get a lot of kind of bits
of masa sticking to it. Youknow, honestly, a high enough
temperature will ensure thatpretty much anything doesn't
stick, but masa can be you know,you gotta be careful, you don't,
don't overdo it. So I recommendwe have a Komal, that is
(42:11):
fantastic. It's made of bluecarbon steel, which you can
really regulate the temperaturequickly on, you know, it's, it
responds quickly to, if you wereto change the temperature. It's
not like cast iron, where it'sjust like a lot of retain heat,
it's just hard to work with.
It's also like a fraction of theweight. So little shout out plug
to the Komal there, whichbasically is just a griddle, you
(42:34):
know, it's a circular griddle,but I, if I don't have that if
I'm like at my in laws house,you know, and they haven't
seasoned their Komal that I leftthem, you know, and taking as
good care of it as I would, youknow, we can use like a nonstick
pan will work just fine as well.
You know, I don't do thestraight on the burner technique
as much, I just, it gets alittle messy, and it's a little
(42:55):
too, too aggressive of a heat.
But folks do it and love it. SoI think where there's a will
there's a way at the end of theday. Yeah,
Chris Spear (43:04):
most definitely, I'm gonna have to pick one of
those up again, like I loveusing my baking steel. I don't
know if you've ever used one ofthose, but it's also like a 40
pound piece of steel. So youknow, I work as a personal chef,
and I do tortillas in people'shomes a lot. So like carrying
this gigantic piece of steeldoesn't really work for me. So I
do bring the tortilla press andall my gear. So I'm in the
market to get something to takemy tortilla show on the road and
(43:27):
make it a little easier on me alittle bit. But I love the
press. I think I bought thetortilla press like first
release, like maybe the day, Idon't know, you send your emails
and I open your emails. And I'malways like, huh, I never knew I
needed that. But I think I'mgonna get one. So I think like,
the first day that email went, Iwas like, oh, limited edition
tortilla press. Yeah, I'm gonnaget one of those.
jor (43:47):
Well, thank you. Yeah, I mean, it's honestly, those are
just like, again, you know,we're working with restaurants
over the years. And they justkept asking us to bring this one
particular tortilla press backfrom Mexico that was just hard
to find in the US, likeimpossible to find and even hard
to find in Mexico. And we justkept doing it and do it. And
we're like, you know, thisreally is great. Like, let's
(44:08):
just make this a little bit morewidely accessible. So I'm glad
you enjoy it. It's, it'sdeceivingly simple and yet, like
makes such a big difference inbringing a tortilla to
Chris Spear (44:18):
life. When I tell everyone the most fun thing we
do as a family cooking is makingtortillas and having like Taco
Night and that tortilla pricemakes it even easier. Like for
my kids. I have 10 year oldtwins and it's you know, it's
like a nice big surface areathere. So we get the three man
show like, you know, my son'srolling them, my daughter's
pressing them and then handingthem to me and I'm throwing them
(44:40):
on the flat top there. So theirfavorite thing I tell people if
you want your kids to eat, getthem engaged in the cooking
process, and I can't think ofanything more fun like than just
making tortillas at home.
jor (44:51):
Totally. Yeah, it's, I mean, you just nailed it. i You
want a hypnotic way to get yourkids in involved in something
you know and like just focusedon a quote unquote activity like
parents, we're all looking foractivities. There is like no
greater activity. Masa as far asI'm concerned.
Chris Spear (45:12):
This so everyone out there, go get your tortilla
presses get some really goodmasa and just start making
tortillas at home. That's That'smy plug. They're
jor (45:21):
amazing. Yeah, guy, what he said.
Chris Spear (45:23):
So, obviously the book still very new. But do you
have anything else you'reworking on right now that's new
and exciting.
jor (45:32):
Oh, man, getting the book out there has been a an amazing
lift. So we're still still verymuch in the early innings of
that and trying to just promoteit as much as we can and get
folks to just share yourexperience, Chris, I mean, doing
something at home, you know,bringing masa to life at home is
such a fun thing to do. And soeasy. So that's top of mind
(45:53):
right now. But yeah, next bookalready thinking about that.
Wanting to kind of deepen thekind of the recipe, relationship
there and just kind of work withmore creatives in the space to
bring some cool recipes to life.
Lots of lots of secrets, I can'tshare too much. But we've got a
lot in store in the next coupleof months from from icns point
of view. We're working with morebrands locally in Mexico to kind
(46:15):
of to celebrate what they do.
And some folks that I'm reallyexcited about sharing with the
world. We've got, we've got morein store soon.
Chris Spear (46:25):
When it becomes public, I will post it out
across my channel. So make sureeveryone knows
jor (46:29):
that you're so kind. Thank you.
Chris Spear (46:31):
Is there anything you want to share before we get
out of here today? I mean, wecould talk about masa and
tortillas forever. But I want tomake sure that you've said as
much as you can that you want toget out there before we wrap it
up today.
jor (46:44):
Just make a tortilla at home, use my sadena Do it once
and tell me it didn't changeyour life or relationship to the
food. That's all.
Chris Spear (46:54):
That's I mean, that's kind of my plug. That's
what I say. It's really easy,right? And just go out there and
do it.
jor (47:01):
Yeah, just get your hands dirty. It takes no time. And the
payoff is so big. I promise you.
Chris Spear (47:07):
Well, you sold me.
I hope you sold some new peopleout there. Thanks so much for
coming on the show. I'm so gladwe could finally do this.
Thanks, Chris. Me too. And toall of our listeners. This has
been Chris with the ChefsWithout Restaurants podcast. Go
to chefs without restaurants.orgTo find our Facebook group,
mailing list and Chef database.
The community is free to join.
You'll get gig opportunities,advice on building and growing
(47:29):
your business and you'll nevermiss an episode of our podcast.
Have a great week.
Tortillas. Sopes.
Tamales. Pupusas. None of thesewould be possible without one
thing. Corn, but morespecifically, masa. I'm Chris
spear. And this is Chefs WithoutRestaurants. The show where I
speak with culinaryentrepreneurs and people working
in the food and beverageindustry outside of a
traditional restaurant setting.
(01:41):
Today's guest is Jorge Gaviria,founder of Masienda, and author
of the new book, Masa. If you'veever seen any of my blog posts
or cooking videos, or maybeyou've hired me to cook for you,
you know how much I love,tortillas, tacos and all things
masa. That's why I was soexcited to have Jorge on the
podcast this week. I've beenbuying masa harina from Messina
for a few years now. But Jorgedidn't start there. In the
(02:04):
beginning, it was just corn. Hewent to Mexico to find the best
corn and wanted to be able toship it to restaurants who would
then be making their own matzahin house. Actually, he really
thought he was going to open upa tortilleria. But found out
that was going to be a much morechallenging endeavor. So on the
show, you're gonna get theorigin story of mossy panda. And
I made sure that Jorge gave alittle overview about an
(02:25):
externalization, which is theprocess of turning corn into
masa. We're only going to touchon that. But if you'd really
like to get an in depth lookabout the first 100 or so pages
of his book, really dig intoeverything from corn anatomy to
comb, owls, a masa timeline, andeven how to nixtamal eyes and
grind your own corn at home. Andfor those who just want to buy
(02:46):
the masa harina, I asked himabout things like water
temperature, hydration, and thedifferences between the corn
types. I also want to talk tohim about brand partnerships,
because Masienda has teamed upwith a lot of companies like
Jacobson Salt Co, Made in andHayden Flour Mills. So I want to
see how those relationships cameabout. But if there's anything
I'd like you to get out of thisepisode, it's that making
(03:06):
tortillas at home is so easy.
And I think if you love tacos,you should definitely be doing
this. I've found that this isone of the best things you can
do with kids. I mean, unlessthey don't like tacos, right?
But this is one of those thingsthat my kids really get excited
about, you know, I'll make thedough and then my son will roll
the balls, my daughter willpress them on the press and then
I'll put them on the griddle. Soif you're someone who likes
(03:27):
Mexican food and anything that'smade with masa, just go on the
masina website and order somemasa harina I think you're
really going to be pleased andkind of surprised at how easy
this is, if you've never done itbefore. I have never next
symbolizes mountain corn. AndJorge has me thinking that maybe
that's something I should try.
I'll let you know how that goes.
And of course I love connectingwith people in my community and
(03:49):
audience. So find me onInstagram at Chefs Without
Restaurants, and go tochefswithoutrestaurants.org. To
get more information on how ourorganization is helping food
entrepreneurs build and growtheir businesses. You can get
links to the private Facebookgroup, sign up for our
newsletter, and get in ourdatabase so I can help personal
chefs caterers and food truckoperators get more leads.
(04:43):
Hey, welcome to the show. Thanksso much for coming on.
Jorge Gaviria (05:27):
Thanks so much for having me.
Chris Spear (05:28):
I'm excited to talk to you. I've been trying to get
you on the show for actually acouple of years. Now you might
not have even known but wellbefore you even had a book out.
So I'm actually kind of gladthat it didn't work out earlier
on, because now we can talkabout this book you have. So
you're just coming off of a booktour, I was lucky enough to see
you in DC. So thanks for comingthrough and talking to us.
jor (05:48):
Of course, yeah, it's great to see you and finally put a
face to the name.
Chris Spear (05:51):
So for all of our listeners, this is going to be
all about masa, tortillas andthe like today. So I want to
kind of start with yourbackground like food. Are you
someone who always grew up?
Loving Food? I mean, some peoplelove food, some tone, some are,
you know, I was a little fat kidin the kitchen. Did you? And did
you end up working inrestaurants? Like what's kind of
your background and relationshipwith food?
jor (06:14):
Yeah, I grew up definitely loving food had a strong passion
for it early inclination to justlike think about it all the
time. And then I mean, I justgrowing up in Miami, my dad is
an attorney or was an attorney.
And I kind of just plan on goingdown the same path and
everything was sort of like,seemed like all the all the
(06:36):
stars were aligned to go, youknow, down the same route. And
then I decided, like sometimeafter graduating from college,
and I taught for two years andin Brooklyn, I was like, you
know, I was ready to go to lawschool. And actually, like,
wasn't that ready. Like, therewas just something kind of
blocking me and I read a book byDanny Meyer, who was sort of a,
(06:58):
an early hero of mine. And heyou know, he talked about not
going to law school and insteadgoing to, you know, live in
Italy and kind of work, youknow, work around Italy for a
year before getting into therestaurant business. And I was
like, This is my reason. This ismy excuse to do exactly the same
thing. And so showed my dad thebook, I was like, this is this
(07:20):
is my plan. I It's a planwithout a plan. I'm just gonna
go to Italy, and I'm gonna farmfor a year and then figure out
what happens. And he's like,Well, you know, it's so funny.
Your grandfather, my dad was inthe restaurant business. I was
like, I thought he was anattorney. And he's like, he was
an attorney. But he actually wasmore passionate about food and
ended up doing food for hismajority of its life, which I
(07:42):
had no idea. We were not thatclose. So it was interesting to
hear that it was sort of likealready in my DNA, you know,
and, you know, I had sort of thefamily blessing. So I worked in
Italy for a year I did a farmingand butchering apprenticeship
out there and then came back, Iworked for Danny Meyer, as a
cook at one of his restaurantsin Manhattan called Maialino. I
(08:04):
then worked at Blue Hill atStone barns and Blue Hill in New
York. And it was when I was atBlue Hill that I started to
think about kind of, you know,just the relationship I had with
food, my values as a consumer,you know, had evolved a lot
since I was a kid. And the foodsthat I grew up eating, you know,
in a Latin household, to mehadn't really like reflected
(08:26):
those changes that I was seeingin real time at these farm to
table restaurants. And I justthought that the sourcing could
be more thoughtful in the storyand approach. And I just wanted
to see those foods I grew upeating more thoughtfully
represented in you know, in thegrocery store, and you know, and
supply chain. So I kind of setout to build that platform, and
I started with masa.
Chris Spear (08:47):
Was there a template for you to follow at
the time was anyone doing anyreally good high quality masa
out there,
Jorge Gaviria (08:53):
no one was doing really good high quality masa,
which I thought was interesting.
I was, you know, just kind ofblown away by this thing. You
know, like, I could have atortilla, I could have tortilla
chips, tamales, and actuallydon't like tomatoes as much.
It's like one secret about me.
But you know, all of these foodsthat I love, I was just kind of
blown away by the fact that noneof them. Very few folks could
(09:17):
tell me kind of the story andthe process that went into
making them and I was just kindof curious about that
relationship. The more I kind ofunderstood it, the more I was
like, Oh, my goodness, this issuch a rich, you know, staple in
so many ways. If only peopleknew more about it. I think you
know, Rancho Gordo had beendoing this for beans for a
while. I thought that was reallycompelling. Anson Mills was
(09:39):
doing it for kind of southernforget what he calls them like
antebellum you know, great. Ithink that's the word he uses.
Yeah, it's very specific. Andthen, for me, I was like, I
think this needs to be done formasa and the idea was actually
to start Dorthea Yeah, like atortilla factory. Kinda like at
Tartine bakery was my idea. AndI was like, this is going to be
(10:01):
half the theater. And it's goingto sort of really show people
how much work and love goes intomaking tortillas and masa. But I
just, I couldn't, I think onepiece that was missing for me,
it's not like I had a lease oranything like that. But the one
other piece that was missing forme was that I couldn't, I
couldn't quite land on like,what was the right supply chain?
What was the right rawingredient to start with,
(10:22):
there's plenty of corn in theUS, but none of it was really
kind of doing justice to thestaple of masa, like I felt like
it needed to be. And that's whenI started looking in Mexico, for
solutions and supply chainanswers to that, that problem.
When was this? That was 2013,when I started doing research,
and then 2014, is when I startedto actually work in Mexico to,
(10:46):
to find solutions on the ground.
And it turns out that folks hadbeen doing a lot of this sort of
supply chain preservation, thatcomes with heirloom corn. You
know, there's about 3 millionsmallholder farmers in Mexico
that do this, you know, justthey preserve the world's
genetic supply of corn. It'sbasically like an open seed
bank, you know, in the, in thefields, and, you know, the
(11:09):
various regions of Mexico, it'slike a living, breathing
seedbank. And you these are,traditionally they're a little
older farmers, they are folkswho are certainly needing,
needing some support, and kindof some additional resources
for, you know, offloading anysurplus materials they have,
(11:29):
which became very hard tocompete with commodity corn, you
know, especially after NAFTA. Sothere was like, a real impact
opportunity there. And there hadbeen folks who had been doing
doing the work of documentingthese landrace, heirloom corn
varieties, and, you know,working with farmer populations
to improve them, and throughnatural, sort of, like, you
know, breeding practices. And,you know, what they just needed
(11:53):
was a market for it. And so Ijust a light bulb went off, I
was like, This is it, this isthe way to, to kind of explore
building a supply chain, and youknow, the rest, the rest is kind
of history.
Chris Spear (12:06):
How was the reception when you went down
there? Because I'm sure there'sa lot of people who come from
the US, you know, businesses godown there kind of exploit these
people, were they kind of weary,or were they welcoming, when you
came down and started to kind ofexplore this process?
Jorge Gaviria (12:19):
It's interesting, I think, there were definitely
some communities that had beenburned, not even by foreigners,
but by folks within theircommunity who said that they
would take the corn onconsignment, you know, it's a
lot of work, corn is verycumbersome, you know, like a 50
pound bag of corn takes up agood amount of space. And, you
know, if you've got several bagsof this, and you want to go take
(12:42):
it to a market, and you're gonnahave to figure out
transportation for that, you'regonna have to figure out like a
market stall, it's quite costlyto bring to market for these
subsistence based growers. And alot had been burned in that
process where they would say,you know, neighbor would be
like, Oh, let me go take this onconsignment for you, and then
they'd never come back withmoney. Or, you know, they, they
(13:05):
short them on the payment. Andso I think that was actually
mostly the kind of the thoughtprocess that happened for some,
not all of them. It wasn'tactually about being a
foreigner, I think they werejust sort of more entertained
than anything about the factthat a foreigner would want corn
to export to the US, which isthe largest producing corn
country in the world, by a long,very long shot. So yeah, I think
(13:30):
there was sort of just acuriosity, a little bit of
skepticism about just a modellike, you know, an equitable
model in general. But very soonafter starting, you know, I
think word got out that this wasan option, and the price was
right, and people were gettingpaid immediately. And, you know,
I think it sort of one thing ledto another and it built a lot of
(13:50):
trust in the communities that westarted in and then that we grew
into
Chris Spear (13:54):
when you started this, were you talking to chefs
and people like, was there aninterest? Did you know that
there was going to be a marketfor this? Or was it a hunch, and
just like, something you hopedwould happen?
Jorge Gaviria (14:06):
I honestly was really fully invested in this
idea of opening my own tortilla.
Yeah. So it wasn't actuallyuntil I got to Mexico and I
realized, just like how muchwork it was going to take to
build the supply chain alonethat I was I kind of took a step
back from the tortilleria ideaand was, you know, like,
Alright, how do we build thesupply chain with a ready to go
market? And it was really naive.
(14:31):
I mean, honestly, I got lucky. Iworked in the restaurant
industry and was still had my,you know, one foot in it at that
time, from a restaurant like Iwas actually working in Blue
Hills still. And so I reachedout to a couple folks who had a
relationship with Mexican food.
And you know, it just sohappened that Enrique Olvera who
had I literally checked his coatat Blue Hill. It was such a, it
(14:53):
was such a random connection.
But I reached out to him andsaid, Hey, I think you It sounds
like you're opening up arestaurant in a couple of
months. I'm actually going to besourcing this corn for a
tortilla Ria, I'm starting, butwas wondering if you wanted to,
you know, buy any corn and youcan, you know, do this whole
process, you know, build amassive program in your in your
(15:15):
restaurant, and he was like, youknow, it's actually amazing
timing. That's, uh, that's myplan. I just need really good. I
need great corn for that. And wehaven't really figured that out.
And I was like, oh, man, this isamazing. This is too good to be
true. And like, you know, justso happened like he Sean Brock,
you know, had been going throughthe same process. He was opening
(15:36):
up Mineiro at the time when hewas still with the neighborhood.
That neighborhood
Chris Spear (15:40):
group neighborhood that yeah, that sounds right
down in Charleston. Yeah.
Jorge Gaviria (15:44):
You know, taco Maria was opening up wanted to
do the same thing. CarlosSalgado was interested you had
Rosie Oh, Sanchez, who wasleaving no money to go open up
her own place. Like it was kindof this perfect storm of high
profile chefs wanting to open uptheir own concepts around masa.
And kind of like unchartedterritory, at least in the US
(16:06):
like nobody. And you know, thiskind of fine dining, really,
like no restaurants had had veryfew had really publicly ever
kind of like, gone out of theirway to source and produce masa
from scratch. And so there wasjust kind of like a moment that
we were all sort of waiting tosee like how it would be
received. If there was a realtranslation kind of, from from
(16:31):
kind of that farm to tableexperience for masa. And sure
enough, like critics took note,guests took note. And the more
kind of notoriety andcelebration that these
restaurants got, the more therewas an interest in trying to
replicate what they did to makesuch excellent masa.
Chris Spear (16:49):
And we didn't have I mean, I don't know at the
time, there weren't that manyhigh end finer dining, like
Mexican restaurants in the US,not that I can really think of
Jorge Gaviria (17:00):
before this sort of like, quote, unquote, modern
Mexican movement got startedaround honestly, 2014 with
postman and Bejan, and, youknow, taco, Medea and many
others. You know, it was sort ofthe authentic Mexican movement.
And what's interesting aboutthat movement, and this was sort
of really punctuated by like,you know, certainly Rick
(17:21):
Bayless, probably the posterchild of that movement and did
so much to educate consumers onyou know, just what real Mexican
food should be or looks like.
Tastes like and you don't thinkthat there was you know, Rosa
Mexicano? Roberta 71 years,like, there were, there were
examples of this, but nobody wasmaking masa and house. It was
just it was sort of considered adaunting process really kind of,
(17:45):
like highly technical,difficult, you know, from from
an access standpoint, like,where do you get the corn and,
you know, again, corn, corn issort of cumbersome, it's a bit
dense, like, where do you storethe corn in a small New York
City restaurant? So like, youknow, how do you mill it? Like,
these were all questions thathad no one had ever really
needed to figure it out? Becausethere was no, there was no, I
(18:07):
think, like marketplace tocreate a solution for it. And
also, it was just sort of wherewe were in the evolution of, you
know, our kind of activeconsumption, you know, it was
like, it was a big enough stepto do a Malay from scratch, you
know, versus getting a paste or,you know, buying masa from a
local Dorthea. That was enough,you know, that was sort of just
(18:31):
where the starting point was.
And it just the conversationjust kept evolving.
Chris Spear (18:36):
I'm fortunate enough to say that I was
actually literally the firsttable sat at cozmic. On opening
night. I feel it was so cool.
And so weird. I was like thefirst one. So at one point, I
was like, sitting in literallylike an empty dining room. No
way. Yeah, I was in town for thestar chefs Conference, which is
in October, and I just rememberseeing, like, you know,
(18:57):
something popped up that like,reservations are now open. I was
like, Oh, wow, I'll be in NewYork, because I don't live in
New York. And I made areservation. I got like the 530
reservation. It's funny becauseEnrique did like a mainstage
demo that night, and I saw himlike two hours before and I was
there for that. Were you. So Iwas like, Chef, like I'm eating
in your restaurant. Two hours.
Like, are you? Are you going tobe there tonight? But yeah, I
(19:20):
managed to stay for his talk andthen hightail it across town and
sat down. So I also joked that Ithink I was the first person to
probably Instagram that cornhusk Marang that became like,
the viral dish for that year.
Yeah. That's
jor (19:32):
so funny, man. That's wild.
What a time if that was. Yeah,it was a moment. But it wasn't
until Pete Wells wrote hisreview that I think like, I
think they were some skepticism.
You know, like it was a it wasan outsider, you know, wasn't a
local New York chef. We'd seen alot of folks fail. You know,
like, there's some high profilechefs who came in to New York
(19:54):
from out of town and justcouldn't it didn't land but
yeah, because they just crushedit. And it just set up a real
kind of opportunity for othersto jump in and made masa look
really good. And I'd
Chris Spear (20:07):
also say, you know, like Alex do packs book tacos
that that was kind of when Ireally got interested in making
tortillas at home. I mean, I'mnot Nick symbolizing my own corn
but just like using good masaand that's kind of what led me
to you is okay, I'm gonna makethese tacos. Sure I can go buy,
you know, my steak in thegrocery store. But what's out
there? And that's, I think how Ifound you, you know, you kind of
(20:30):
still knew at the time, I don'tremember when that book came
out. And that kind of led medown the rabbit hole of like,
really awesome masa.
Jorge Gaviria (20:37):
Oh, I love that.
Yeah. 2015 I think is when thatcame out. And yeah, I mean,
Alex, Alex was like, I mean,honestly, I think he really
created a space in New York foreven just the conversation of
modern Mexican food, which, youknow, for he's he's, he's self
self deprecating about it, youknow, I'm just like a white guy
from from from Massachusetts.
(20:59):
But he really like, I mean, heinvited Enrique to one of his
first push projects, you know,which was sort of these guest
chef appearances that you woulddo and really think outside the
box about Mexican cuisine. And,you know, a lot of credit goes
to him for just tinkering andcreating a space for for kind of
the evolution of Mexican food,certainly in New York, but
obviously, as a as a canvas forthe country.
Chris Spear (21:21):
What was your product line when you started?
Were you just selling corn andall this stuff to have people
make their own masa? Or did youstart with like masa harina as
well? What was that timeframelike,
Jorge Gaviria (21:32):
literally just selling? Well, at that time, it
was 170 155 pound bags of corn,because I thought it was cheaper
to a was cheaper. I was like,oh, I'll just double the amount
in one bag and just spendbasically money on one bag.
Except I didn't realize like,you know, you had to lift that.
And I was one who was makingdeliveries in those early days.
So it was a little bit it was alittle bit tough. But it was
(21:55):
just corn. And, you know,finally figured out that 55
pounds was a more appropriatebag size. And then it really
kind of just was a slowevolution. I mean, there were,
there were places you could buycow, I recommended those places
to folks and just really focusedon the corn. And then over time,
(22:15):
you know, as the kind of theteam expanded and my bandwidth
expanded, we started to kind oftake on other supply chains and
other kinds of opportunitiesbetween, you know, the cow to
mattina just finding the rightplace to do that to, you know,
all of the range of things we dotoday. Milling equipment, like
that was a really big one thetime it was just so expensive
(22:35):
for these restaurants to getstarted, you know, making masa
and house like you had to waitsix to nine months to get a mill
from like one of like threeplaces in the United States that
would make it just like a reallyout dated system for buying the
machinery. And we ended upcreating a solution for that,
like a tabletop mill solutionthat uses basalt stones just
(22:56):
basically shrunken down, whichhas just been completely
amplified the conversation andyou know, there's now 1000s of
home cooks around the world thatdo this with equipment that just
wasn't available at that timewhen I started.
Chris Spear (23:10):
Well, I want to circle back to that because that
is something we're talkingabout. Can we go back to a
little bit? You wrote the book,literally called masa and
there's so much info. So muchgreat reading. But for our
listeners who maybe don't haveas much of a background on this,
can you give us like a Cliff'sNotes version on what masa is
(23:30):
and kind of like the nextcivilization process like for
people who don't understand whatyou're doing to the corn to get
it to that point where it's masaor muscle Reena?
jor (23:39):
Yeah, so masa is the Spanish word for dough. In this
context, you know, certainly inMexico and other parts of of
modern day Mesoamerica evenparts of South America masa,
more specifically refers to acorn dough. And that corn is
special because it's gonethrough an alkaline treatment,
which is sounds like moreintimidating than it actually
(24:00):
is. It just means that it's beencooked in some water with a
little dash of like alkaline youknow, powder. In this case,
calcium hydroxide is what's mostcommonly used. And that just
basically means it helps breakdown the corn and it makes it
nutritious so you don't need toworry too much about what
happens unless you are curiousand you can read the book. But
(24:20):
you know, the the main gist ofit is that it's really special.
It's kind of this it's reallyalchemy, what happens to corn
when it when it is treated inthis alkaline solution. And that
that process is called anexternalization. So yeah, masa
is the result of that you takethe corn that's been cooked in,
in that alkaline water, it'ssoaked in that alkaline water,
(24:42):
the science and kind of miracleof externalization has happened
to it. And then you rinse it offand you grind it in some way or
another. So if you're working athome, you can use a you know,
Cuisinart food processor, youcan use a hand mill, which is
what I would recommend if you dodidn't want to make that kind of
that big leap investment intomore detail. You can use it the
(25:04):
salt Molina like the mojito.
Basically, you're just going tokind of get that down into a
dough. And at that point, it'scalled masa.
Chris Spear (25:12):
So do you think that's realistic for someone
who's maybe an amateur cook athome? Like they don't have plans
to do this as a business, just arecreational thing? I mean, I
think people have gotten used todoing more intricate things at
home, people are doingfermentation at home, they're
messing with koji. They're doingsourdough, how realistically
easy would this be like, I'venever done it? Is this something
(25:33):
I should jump in and try?
jor (25:35):
Totally, I mean, even if just wants to kind of relate to
how magical of a process it is,like, I actually think it's way
more straightforward thanfermentation or breadmaking.
Like, I find those far moreintimidating, just, you know,
gases and like explosions. Andyou know, I don't know, just
like, it seems, it's literallymore volatile to me. But yeah, I
(25:59):
think it's really fun. That'show I started honestly, it was
just sort of understanding kindof what that process looked
like. And when I got to know it,I just have like, a deeper
reverence for for it, you know,it doesn't mean that I do it all
the time. In fact, like, youknow, I use my sadena Most of
the time now. Because it's,there's a solution for it, it's
an it doesn't skimp on thequality. You know, it will
(26:22):
certainly, like I said, deepenthe connection and respect you
have for it and the culture isbehind it. And I think that
that's as good a reason as anyto, to give it a shot, even if
you don't do it forever.
Chris Spear (26:34):
And I don't think people necessarily realize how
easy it is to make tortillas ormasa based products, especially
if you're using the muscleReena, like, it's literally two
ingredients, usually right likethat, and water and I tell
people all the time, like, youlove tacos, why aren't you
making them like buy a bag ofthis stuff, add water, and there
you go, right? Like, you don'teven have to have a tortilla
(26:55):
price. You can roll it out, youcan do all kinds of things. It's
just a two ingredient. And oneof them is water that you
already have. But I think peopleare still so intimidated just to
even make tortillas at home. AndI don't know why. So it's
something I've been preachingfor a couple of years. And I'm
always providing them resources,quite often, many of years to
get them started on the tortillamaking mode.
jor (27:16):
Thank you. Yeah, I think if there's any place to start,
that's it. You know, like, it's,it's shockingly easy. There is
like zero science, you don'teven need to worry about it. You
literally add water, you form adough into whatever shape you
want. And like it's magical,it's it is such a different
experience, the payoff is sobig. That work is so little. And
(27:40):
it's it's it changes yourrelationship with food for sure.
Chris Spear (27:45):
And I'm always trying to eke out the best
results. So I have a coupletechnical questions, and maybe
they're, you know, it doesn'tmatter but water temperature, is
there a specific watertemperature for when you're
mixing? And then two, should yoube resting your toe? Do you have
opinions on these questions?
jor (28:04):
I think that warm water is really nice. Just because it you
know, it just sort of likeactivates the masa it starts to
smell really good. It kind ofjust blooms the flavor a little
bit, just like tap warm water,you know, like nothing crazy.
And it kind of just mimics whatit feels like when it's coming
(28:26):
off the stones. You know, it'slike quite warm, because of the
friction that stones create oncethey're being kind of they're
grinding against one another.
It's just nice. It kind ofrecreates that experience that
fresh fresh masa so resting timeyou know, I was just talking to
Rick Bayless about this we did alittle video together he likes
to rest it I don't I don't it'sinteresting to think about I
(28:49):
never really thought about itthat much. From a resting
perspective. I just want to makesure that the the masa is wet to
touch but like not sticky andhonestly I think that after
resting it I ended up needing toadd a little more water to it
because masa dries out so fastthat you know I it's kind of six
one by half a dozen the other tome.
Chris Spear (29:12):
I don't even seen people like vacuum seal it like
they do pasta dough. So likespeed up hydration of hydration
was an issue if this is justlike overcomplicating things.
jor (29:21):
Yeah, it's definitely overcomplicating it. I think if
you take like a baker's approachto masa, you could give yourself
a headache.
Chris Spear (29:29):
Now, can your masa harina be used interchangeably
with any recipe you find outthere? You know, there's a
recipe for tamales and it'susing my sake assuming you don't
have your product. Is it like aone for one switch?
jor (29:44):
Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, for tamales specifically.
There's like quite a few campson how folks you know, approach
it. There's some you know, somereally like kind of like a
grittier, coarser masa for theManas. I don't, I think I
mentioned earlier I don't reallylove them and so it's not my
favorite way to enjoy masa. It'skind of just the texture for me,
(30:06):
but, but Yeah, certainly everyrecipe that I wrote in the book,
you know, between thetraditional recipe shapes, you
know, Master shapes that youfind throughout Latin America to
the modern masa recipes, you canuse, you can use mass Idina for
all of that. It's allinterchangeable. And in fact,
it's really cool to kind of witha new appreciation, go back to
(30:27):
some of these classic Mexicancookbooks and just, you know,
approach it with either homemademasa or masa, Idina have a
higher quality than what'srecommended in those because I
think most were like, oh, yeah,just use my Seco. But there were
so few options when a lot ofthese books were written.
Chris Spear (30:43):
Yeah, I have a friend who makes proposals. She
actually used to have a pusafood truck. And she taught me
and my family how to make thembut she was using my Seca. And I
didn't know like, she gave me arecipe. And of course, actually,
she's not using a recipe, right?
She's doing it by touch, but I'mnot at that point. So I started
looking at recipes online, andwas just wondering, oh, could I
take this, you know, my standardproduct I have and just swap it
in. And I hadn't tried that yet.
(31:06):
So knowing that we're totallyready to make proposals with it
at home, because it's become oneof my family's favorite things
to eat. No, that's awesome.
Yeah, and the book is great. Imade space for the first time
last week, I don't know why I'venever done it before just hadn't
gotten around to it, but uh,decided to take a crack at that.
And they came out pretty good,
jor (31:23):
right, like, so easy, so satisfying. I think like I just
rediscovered my love for soap asin the last couple of weeks,
even which is so fun about justall the shapes in general, there
really is like a different shapeand texture and kind of flavor
for every every occasion. And Imade
Chris Spear (31:41):
the masa cookies, which were great. Even though I
freestyle that a little bit, Iprobably need to go back I
usually when I try a recipe forthe, for the first time, usually
make it by the book. But thisone, I just had different
ingredients on hand, it didn'twant to go to the store. So I
kind of winged it, but I wasreally happy with how they came
out. And I'll probably go backand make it like by the book
(32:01):
next time, but I was reallyhappy to see that in there.
jor (32:04):
I'm nervous to deviate, especially on pastry related,
you know, foods and like a likea cookie. But yeah, just
Stephens, the chef who put thatone together is just like so, so
talented. And it. I'm not even afan of of sweets, honestly. And
that one, that one definitelyconverted me.
Chris Spear (32:21):
So we've touched on a little bit, you've got a book,
I'd love to hear about the book,how did the book come about? Was
it just time to write thedefinitive book on masa?
jor (32:31):
That's it in a nutshell. I mean, you know, it's, I think it
was a natural evolution of justwhat I was doing day to day. And
and I think the funny thing isthat when I started my CNN 2014
I was just looking into some ofmy heroes, you know, in the
culinary universe, and just thefact that this food would really
(32:52):
humble them, and they didn'thave answers, you know, and they
were just, it wasn't like, theycould read some book on it and
go to work. Like, it was a lotof trial and error. And of
course, like, you know, being apurveyor of kind of the raw
ingredients, it was up to me tokind of to really help guide
that experience. So I had tolearn and guide at the same
(33:14):
time. And I just kind of got toa point where, you know, it's
just thinking to myself, it'scrazy. Like, we're sharing so
many notes, and there's so muchkind of knowledge we're
accumulating here. You know,this is a largely oral
tradition. How much more wouldfolks dive into this? If there
was something actually really,you know, written on this
(33:34):
subject, you know, more thanlike a blog post on the
internet, or, you know, aYouTube video? And yeah, I think
it was just sort of one step ledto another we did a small little
like primer booklet, you know,shorts, that kind of thing. I
have that.
Chris Spear (33:48):
The next small book. Yeah, yeah. Thank
jor (33:50):
you, man. You heard like, way early on all this stuff.
You're, you're ahead of thegame. But yeah, we we did that.
And that was the demand wascrazy. I mean, more folks just
kept ordering it, we kind of wedid several printings of it. And
then at some point, I was justlike, Alright, I think the
questions aren't being answeredanymore. You know, people are
asking for more. And there wasjust so much more to say. So,
(34:13):
you know, timing wise, I thinkthat the market had kind of
evolved to make a book like masapossible. I knew that there was
a real movement behind it. Andyou know, what was really
missing was a text to kind ofbring it all together. So that
was a that was it. I got thebook greenlit. Honestly, like in
March 2020, just before thepandemic got started. And it was
(34:35):
a great thing to do during thepandemic, just sit down and
write.
Chris Spear (34:39):
I guess that gives you a lot of time to work on, we
all had time that we weren'texpecting to have. So I guess
kind of a blessing in some ways,at least, I'm sure you had a lot
less going on than normal.
jor (34:49):
It was, you know, in some ways, it was the craziest time
because we were trying to pivotthe business to be more friendly
to get into the home cook inhome consumer. But in other
ways, it was just it was great,you know, like to get, you know,
the, I think the experiencerounded out for a home cook like
a cookbook is, is just speaksthat language, you know from
start to finish. So it was itwas very complimentary of of
(35:12):
kind of the direction thebusiness was headed and also
just kind of very cathartic tolook back and put all these
words and thoughts and kind ofdata points together in an
organized way that people couldfollow.
Chris Spear (35:23):
Did you see an uptick from the home consumer
during COVID? You know, we talka lot about everyone was baking
bread. But did you see also thatpeople were really interested in
making tortillas while they werehome?
jor (35:34):
Completely? Yeah, I mean, it's so funny, just doing this
book tour over the last coupleof weeks, the amount of folks
who came in and said, Man, Istarted working with your
product during pandemic, youknow, and that's when we
launched our mass it now that'swhen we launched our tortilla
press, like we really, you know,it was just a perfect moment of
user adoption. And for sure, Imean, at that time, restaurants
(35:59):
weren't open for a while and weare actually stuck, we're gonna
go out of business, but it'scrazy. I mean, the pandemic
panic, purchasing was a realthing. But what's crazy is that
it's stuck. You know, peoplereally loved that experience,
they really connected moredeeply with that, with that
staple that they probably tookfor granted before and you know,
like me, once you once you tasteit, there's really no going
(36:22):
back. Like, everything elsesucks.
Chris Spear (36:26):
That is true. For sure. Yeah. What are the
differences in the four that yousell? Like, how do you know what
to use? Or is it just playingaround? Like, if you want to
make a soap a you know, do youreach for the blue, the white,
the yellow, the red? Do you haveany guidance on that when
selecting what? masa harina touse,
jor (36:48):
I wish I could really give you a more like thought. I mean,
there's what I don't want tocomplicate it, I think like, at
the end of the day, it's sort ofwhatever, whatever your your
tastes and preferences at thatmoment, like, color is
definitely the kind of we eatwith our eyes. So whatever is
looking most appetizing to yougo for it, you know, there's
also a whole world out there ofpeople mixing colors together
(37:12):
and kind of making a tie dyeeffect or, you know, like these
really beautiful patterns. So Ithink like, it doesn't matter,
you can make a really delicioussorbet or Dorthea from any of
these things, tomatoes from anyof these things. There are like
slight flavor sort ofvariations, but like, at the end
of the day, they all taste likeexcellent masa, you know, so
(37:32):
it's just sort of like basictasting notes. It's not as
drastic as like, you know, let'ssay different kinds of breads,
maybe
Chris Spear (37:43):
like rye bread from a sourdough or something
jor (37:45):
like that. Grapes. I mean, like, we use that analogy a lot,
where it's like, oh, you know,this is sort of these corn has
terroir, just like wine, and itdoes, but it's not as like, it's
not as, I don't know, off thecharts, you know, different
like, different DNA grapes grownacross the world, they're gonna
taste pretty wildly differentfrom each other. You know,
(38:07):
compared to corn, there aredefinitely variations but like,
when we're talking about Mexico,we're already kind of refining
that, like that sourcinglocation already to a pretty
specific part of the world. Youknow, then even further than
that, we're getting kind ofcorns that are specifically
suitable for masa. So they'reall very complimentary, and you
(38:28):
can't go wrong. But yeah, somefight some slight fake flavor
variations, like the yellow forexample, has like to me, some
some, I mean, he shares betacarotene, right. So it's, that's
what kind of gives it thatyellowy pigmentation to it. And
that's something that's commonlyfound in carrots and butternut
squash. And so I find thatthere's some kind of notes of
(38:50):
that there but still absolutelytastes like masa you know, in
corn. Same thing with the whiteyou know, the White comes from a
white little do it has that kindof like movie theater buttered
popcorn flavor to it, it's justlike very richly, corny, in the
right ways with like, a nicesort of like mouthfeel fat to
it, that to me, like just meansthat the flavor lingers a little
(39:12):
bit longer on your palate, andthen the red and the blue. For
me, the flavor is excellent.
There's sort of a neediness toit, even like a light sweetness
to it. But, you know, at the endof the day, the texture is just
like impossibly soft of those,those, the monster that comes
off of it. So, you know, I thinkyou won't go wrong. Try them
all.
Chris Spear (39:34):
And I've mixed them based on you know, I've got like
a quarter cup of blue in thebag, and then I have a new bag
of white and it's just like, mixthem together.
jor (39:43):
Totally. You can totally do that. And it'll still yield the
same. It's not like you'remixing like double zero flour.
It's not it's not a question ofthe thickness, you know, or the
grind. It's it's truly just atthat point flavor.
Chris Spear (39:56):
And I think collaborations are great and
you've worked with some reallygreat companies like Jacobson,
salt made in Hayden flower, howdo you go about selecting the
businesses that you want to workwith? Because you know, that
represents you as much asanything you do? I think so how
did you choose those brands thatyou wanted to collab with?
jor (40:17):
I mean, I think they're, they're all brands that we
respect as doing similar thingsfor their respective, you know,
staples, so Jacobson, big fan ofthe quality of salts that they
make, and just as a consumer,really enjoy them. So it's just
fun to kind of bring my ownpersonal, like, pride preference
(40:38):
is to light and this way
Chris Spear (40:40):
through, like, you prefer to put worms in their
salt.
jor (40:43):
Yeah, I was like, man, I've just like, who does great salt,
you know, like, when you whenyou, when you think about, like,
you know, what are the optionsout there, Jacobsen is like the
one that comes to mind, it's thebest. So it's like, let's try
this with some, some, you know,like bringing a delicacy in
Mexico to life using one of myfavorite salts there is and, you
know, that was just, it's stillone of my favorite
(41:04):
collaborations we've done, youknow, made into such a great
job, they're really kind of atthat intersection of
craftsmanship and kind ofculinary experience. And, you
know, blue carbon steel, like,they just have such a great
supply chain for that greatproduction partners. And it just
said something new about theproduct that we knew and cared
about as a Komal. So, you know,it's just, they're, they're,
(41:26):
they're logical in a lot ofways. Like, they're just again,
like, brands that I love andwill, you know, kind of dream
about working with one day andthen that comes to life?
Chris Spear (41:35):
And how important is it to have a Komal versus,
you know, a cast iron pan, Iactually use a baking steel on
my stove is like a big flat topfor that. So what are your
thoughts on cooking, just like abasic tortilla?
jor (41:47):
Yeah, you know, I think that you can use whatever you
got, you want to make sure it'slike as close to a nonstick
surface as possible, so that youdon't get a lot of kind of bits
of masa sticking to it. Youknow, honestly, a high enough
temperature will ensure thatpretty much anything doesn't
stick, but masa can be you know,you gotta be careful, you don't,
don't overdo it. So I recommendwe have a Komal, that is
(42:11):
fantastic. It's made of bluecarbon steel, which you can
really regulate the temperaturequickly on, you know, it's, it
responds quickly to, if you wereto change the temperature. It's
not like cast iron, where it'sjust like a lot of retain heat,
it's just hard to work with.
It's also like a fraction of theweight. So little shout out plug
to the Komal there, whichbasically is just a griddle, you
(42:34):
know, it's a circular griddle,but I, if I don't have that if
I'm like at my in laws house,you know, and they haven't
seasoned their Komal that I leftthem, you know, and taking as
good care of it as I would, youknow, we can use like a nonstick
pan will work just fine as well.
You know, I don't do thestraight on the burner technique
as much, I just, it gets alittle messy, and it's a little
(42:55):
too, too aggressive of a heat.
But folks do it and love it. SoI think where there's a will
there's a way at the end of theday. Yeah,
Chris Spear (43:04):
most definitely, I'm gonna have to pick one of
those up again, like I loveusing my baking steel. I don't
know if you've ever used one ofthose, but it's also like a 40
pound piece of steel. So youknow, I work as a personal chef,
and I do tortillas in people'shomes a lot. So like carrying
this gigantic piece of steeldoesn't really work for me. So I
do bring the tortilla press andall my gear. So I'm in the
market to get something to takemy tortilla show on the road and
(43:27):
make it a little easier on me alittle bit. But I love the
press. I think I bought thetortilla press like first
release, like maybe the day, Idon't know, you send your emails
and I open your emails. And I'malways like, huh, I never knew I
needed that. But I think I'mgonna get one. So I think like,
the first day that email went, Iwas like, oh, limited edition
tortilla press. Yeah, I'm gonnaget one of those.
jor (43:47):
Well, thank you. Yeah, I mean, it's honestly, those are
just like, again, you know,we're working with restaurants
over the years. And they justkept asking us to bring this one
particular tortilla press backfrom Mexico that was just hard
to find in the US, likeimpossible to find and even hard
to find in Mexico. And we justkept doing it and do it. And
we're like, you know, thisreally is great. Like, let's
(44:08):
just make this a little bit morewidely accessible. So I'm glad
you enjoy it. It's, it'sdeceivingly simple and yet, like
makes such a big difference inbringing a tortilla to
Chris Spear (44:18):
life. When I tell everyone the most fun thing we
do as a family cooking is makingtortillas and having like Taco
Night and that tortilla pricemakes it even easier. Like for
my kids. I have 10 year oldtwins and it's you know, it's
like a nice big surface areathere. So we get the three man
show like, you know, my son'srolling them, my daughter's
pressing them and then handingthem to me and I'm throwing them
(44:40):
on the flat top there. So theirfavorite thing I tell people if
you want your kids to eat, getthem engaged in the cooking
process, and I can't think ofanything more fun like than just
making tortillas at home.
jor (44:51):
Totally. Yeah, it's, I mean, you just nailed it. i You
want a hypnotic way to get yourkids in involved in something
you know and like just focusedon a quote unquote activity like
parents, we're all looking foractivities. There is like no
greater activity. Masa as far asI'm concerned.
Chris Spear (45:12):
This so everyone out there, go get your tortilla
presses get some really goodmasa and just start making
tortillas at home. That's That'smy plug. They're
jor (45:21):
amazing. Yeah, guy, what he said.
Chris Spear (45:23):
So, obviously the book still very new. But do you
have anything else you'reworking on right now that's new
and exciting.
jor (45:32):
Oh, man, getting the book out there has been a an amazing
lift. So we're still still verymuch in the early innings of
that and trying to just promoteit as much as we can and get
folks to just share yourexperience, Chris, I mean, doing
something at home, you know,bringing masa to life at home is
such a fun thing to do. And soeasy. So that's top of mind
(45:53):
right now. But yeah, next bookalready thinking about that.
Wanting to kind of deepen thekind of the recipe, relationship
there and just kind of work withmore creatives in the space to
bring some cool recipes to life.
Lots of lots of secrets, I can'tshare too much. But we've got a
lot in store in the next coupleof months from from icns point
of view. We're working with morebrands locally in Mexico to kind
(46:15):
of to celebrate what they do.
And some folks that I'm reallyexcited about sharing with the
world. We've got, we've got morein store soon.
Chris Spear (46:25):
When it becomes public, I will post it out
across my channel. So make sureeveryone knows
jor (46:29):
that you're so kind. Thank you.
Chris Spear (46:31):
Is there anything you want to share before we get
out of here today? I mean, wecould talk about masa and
tortillas forever. But I want tomake sure that you've said as
much as you can that you want toget out there before we wrap it
up today.
jor (46:44):
Just make a tortilla at home, use my sadena Do it once
and tell me it didn't changeyour life or relationship to the
food. That's all.
Chris Spear (46:54):
That's I mean, that's kind of my plug. That's
what I say. It's really easy,right? And just go out there and
do it.
jor (47:01):
Yeah, just get your hands dirty. It takes no time. And the
payoff is so big. I promise you.
Chris Spear (47:07):
Well, you sold me.
I hope you sold some new peopleout there. Thanks so much for
coming on the show. I'm so gladwe could finally do this.
Thanks, Chris. Me too. And toall of our listeners. This has
been Chris with the ChefsWithout Restaurants podcast. Go
to chefs without restaurants.orgTo find our Facebook group,
mailing list and Chef database.
The community is free to join.
You'll get gig opportunities,advice on building and growing
(47:29):
your business and you'll nevermiss an episode of our podcast.
Have a great week.
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