Jeff McErlain

Episode Transcript
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Greg Koch (00:09):
At long last.
Ladies and gentlemen, seasonfive of Chewing the Gristle is
indeed upon us, a convivialconversation fest between myself
, gregory S Caulk, esquire and avariety of musical potentates
from hither and yon, brought toyou by our friends at Wildwood
Guitars and our friends atFishman Transducers, of course,

(00:32):
both of which I've hadlong-standing and continuing
relationships with, and I'm verygrateful for their continued
support in this endeavor tobring you Chewing the Dog on
Gristle.
We've got a bunch of fun guests, some you have heard of, some
maybe not so much.
It'll be a little bit ofdiscovery and a little bit of
chaos all rolled into one.

(00:53):
Thanks for tuning in folks.
Now, without any further ado,let's chew some gristle.
This week on Chewing the Gristle, we have hailing from beautiful
Brooklyn, new York, jeffMcElhain, blues rock guitar
player extraordinaire.
He's out there playing thatblues rock guitar like a fiend

(01:14):
in heat.
You've seen him on stage withRobin Ford.
You've seen his manyinstructional things on the
Internet, on his own website, onYouTube, on True Fire.
He's a madman.
Ladies and gentlemen, .
This week on Chewing theGristle.
Ladies and gentlemen, boys andgirls, we convene once again

(01:35):
around the Gristle Fire.
I don't even know what that is,but listen, we're Chewing the
Gristle with .
He's out there in beautifulBrooklyn, new York, guitar
player, extraordinaire educator,extraordinaire cool cat, mutual
friends of a lot of mutualfriends, of a lot of mutual
friends.
I'm putting an extra syllablein there for some reason, but it

(01:56):
feels good.
Jeff, how the hell are you?
What's happening?

Jeff McErlain (01:59):
Doing damn fine, man.
Good to see you.

Greg Koch (02:01):
Nice to see you too.
Now, what's going out there onthis beautiful?
What's going on out there?
It's beautiful here inWisconsin.
What's it like there?

It is beautiful in Brooklyn and it is 76 degrees
and sunny, so I'm all what am Idoing?
Inside talking to you.

Greg Koch (02:15):
Well, exactly Because we're creatures of the
permanent you know this is onlyan audio thing because we don't.
One of these days I'll actuallyget the do the thing where we
do it on youtube as well.
But you've got quite a buffetof delicious guitars behind you,
and, uh, as do you.

(02:35):
That's true, I do, actually,don't I?

yeah I was just kind of commenting.
We're both wearing blackt-shirts and black hats and Well
, you know what I have found?

Greg Koch (02:44):
that the black t-shirt is an excellent way to
disguise the bullum, if you will, the abdominal goiter which
seems to fluctuate in sizedepending on how much road food
I'm vibing in.

I find that, like when you do a lot of YouTube
videos, people don't evercomment because black t-shirts
kind of like the uniform, yeahexactly.
If you're not, you're thinkingabout different shirts.
I'm like wait, I wore that onelast video, so people are going
to be like why is he alwayswearing that blue shirt?
You know Exactly, it's a funnything, yeah.

Greg Koch (03:16):
Absolutely.
Now you do a ton of onlinestuff.
Tell the folks what your mainthings that you do online and
where they can digest it.

Oh, I appreciate that.
Yeah, the main thing isjmguitarlessonscom and that's my
teaching site we're at thismoment.
I'm going to get into asubscription soon or later.
I have a kind of an innercircle, because you can't touch
my inner circle.
I know you know that referenceright, nobody else does.
You know so where I do theteaching, you know I got a lot

(03:50):
of courses there and then I havemy YouTube page, you know, and
that's the, that's the mainthing right now.
But I got a tour coming up nextmonth, you know, in September
in Europe, so playing we'regoing to be over there too.

Greg Koch (04:02):
Maybe we'll cross paths on the great European
excursion.
Oh, you froze for a minute.

So where was I?

Greg Koch (04:14):
You were talking about.
We were talking about Europe,and that you're going over there
and that we're going to bethere as well, and hopefully our
paths will cross.
Where are you all going to be?

I'm going to be primarily in the Czech Republic,
which is interesting, so Ididn't really realize there was
that we're spending almost threeweeks in the Czech Republic.

Greg Koch (04:32):
Oh nice, Well, that'll be fun.

We did a few years ago.
It's been great.
It's a lot of audiences aregreat and you know it's fun to
get over there.

Greg Koch (04:45):
And you're kind of going all over the place there,
right, correct, we're going to,we fly into Frankfurt and then,
uh, we're just North of Hamburginitially, and then we go over
to Berlin and then we're just.
You know, I've had the sameagent, the mighty Klaus Schmidt,
who I affectionately call thegreat German beast, and, uh, for
reasons that are well, perfectanyway, but he, uh, you know,
he's really good at findingsomething for like every day of

(05:06):
the week.
So when we go over there wedon't have many days off, which
is a good thing, so we're notemerging money in some hotel
someplace.
But by the same token,sometimes we are crisscrossing
old Deutschland, like, like it'sgoing out of style.
But we have five days in Francethis time, which is good,
because I'm sure you're aware,when you go over there it's like

(05:28):
you'll have agents in certainregions but not agents in other
places, and it's hard to breakinto various different places,
depending on you know yourconnect.
So this time we've, we'refinally going into France.
We've only done, I mean, duringthe fender days I do stuff in
France all over the place.
Uh, but with the band we'veonly really done, like, northern

(05:49):
France, we go into Nancy and wedo something there at a music
school up there and we do a showand a workshop type of thing,
uh, but this is actually a fullfive days of you know workshops
in the afternoon, gigs in thenight, wow, and so that should
be good.
And then after we end up inthat, or in Austria a little bit
, and then we end up at theMannheim Guitar Summit oh cool.

(06:15):
So we're doing that at the veryend of the month and then we
head to the UK for about 10 daysand do stuff there.
So I'm just working out all thedetails.
You know how it is.
It's like what guitar should Ibring?
Maybe I can get guitars sentover there and do some kind of a
thing at the end where we givethem away through a magazine or
something.
Or who am I going to send merchto?
Because if you bring all yourmerch over, your stuff weighs a
ton and you know, just thatusual stuff.

You know it's funny, I in the 19th in the
thousands, you know Right.
And what happened?
You know I had a kid, as you do, you know, and I just kind of I
remember coming home off theroad once and my wife despised
me and you know, my son was, youknow, older suddenly, and you
know, I was like, you know, Ididn't come home with like
enough money to go.

(06:58):
Yeah, I'm going to keep ondoing this, you know Right,
doing this, you know.
And so what's been great now ismy son's 18.
He starts college in like twoin a week.

Greg Koch (07:08):
So you know, as he's gotten older, I know what that's
like.

Oh, yeah, well, I'll find out.
So he's.
So I've been sticking the toeback in doing some touring again
, you know, because I had I hadmissed that angle of and I did
some touring with Rob and thatkind of got me back into it and,
uh, you know the kick that Ineeded to get into it.
But I'm looking forward to this.
But yeah, like we had a fewdates in austria and they got
canceled because the, thebooking agent, obviously had

(07:33):
some personal stuff go on, yeah,that we just found out then.
So then all the dates inaustria just got canceled
because this guy's whole lifedisintegrated, right, you know.
And then so you, you're like,oh, okay, so we, we picked them
up, we got a good booking agentin the Czech Republic, so we
just grabbed some more in theCzech Republic.
So we're playing every night,which is, as you know, is uh,

(07:53):
it's, it's got, it's greatthings as a player, it's awesome
, right.

Greg Koch (08:00):
I find that as long as you keep moving, it's okay.
It's when you stop for two days, then you're like, and then it
just hits that second day, yeah,your body just says remember
that thing where you went, likenonstop.
Well, here's a reminder thatthere are limitations to the
request you make of your body.

But I'm doing a whole juggling of gear like you
do Like what am I going to useover there?
What guitar, how do I get thatthere?
How much merch, all that stuff.

Greg Koch (08:28):
Yeah, it's just part of the thing.
And then, of course, you getthere and then it's without a
doubt, people are like, oh, it'sso loud and you're going who
did you book in here?
Why is this a thing?
Parallel existence, man, it'scrazy, yeah, and you know like

(08:48):
sorry, no, it's all right, Goahead.
I want to hear what yourperspective is.

I even contemplated bringing like a
fractal and I love the fractalstuff.
I think it's great.
I use it all the time forcourses.
It just makes life easier.
I live in Brooklyn.
I can't crank stuff.
I I mean I could, but myneighbors would not like me,
right?
So I try to be a civilizedhuman being.
You know what I mean and alsowho wants to turn up.
We can talk about those thingsyou're talking about behind me.
If you see my YouTube channel,you see all this stuff, usually

(09:14):
like yourself.
So I don't have that option.
So I thought about it and Ithought about it and I'm like oh
, fuck that.
Bring in an amp again.
You know, like, because that'swhat it's all about.
The amp is part of theinstrument for guys like us.
Like you just you know, and theFractal, for, okay, you know,
we're playing improvisatorymusic, right, and so that is

(09:37):
such a huge factor, like, okay,if you're playing in a cover
band and it's, you know, it'sthe same thing every night.
Yeah, fractal killer, I know, Iknow there are great players
who use it, but I didn't grow upthat way and so you want to be
able to go over the amp and go,you know, and get that thing and
and I don't know about you, butfor me the effects are part of
the performance.
Like tonight, I might want tojust bend over and fuck with the

(10:00):
feedback on the exactly, yeah,something like on a
pre-programmed thing like thefractal, like I would have to
plan ahead and that thereforeruins the spontaneity of the
whole thing.

Greg Koch (10:10):
Right, totally.
Yep, absolutely.

And it's all about the spontaneity.
That's why we do it.

Greg Koch (10:16):
It's that's a fact, I just find it so odd that these
places in you know, they bookyou into the place and you're
doing a sound check and they'relike, oh my God, it's too loud.
And you're like, okay, well,let's do a quick recap.
There's.
There's no one in here rightnow.
Okay, when people get in here,it's going to be different.

(10:37):
And then the other thing I findis too, is that they, you know,
I'm sure you're the same way.
It's like, you know, if we'rein a small room, don't mic
anything except for the vocals,and we'll be fine.
But what inevitably they'll do?
They'll mic everything up.
And then, once we start playing, they start adding things in
and they're like, oh, by the endI had it all off.
Well, by then, you know, it'sjust, it's the sound man's part

(11:01):
of the problem.

So I don't want to sound like we're complaining,
but I complain about it.
We sound like two, like youknow, you know.
But I remember a gig with Robin, you know and you've played
Robin, robin's loud, yeah.

Greg Koch (11:17):
Robin's not afraid.

Yeah, and the sound guy's like it's a little
loud, he goes guitar's a louderinstrument.

Greg Koch (11:23):
Yeah.

And he just, of course, you know it's his name's
in the marquee, but you knowwhat?

Greg Koch (11:30):
I'm saying like I just love that comment.
Yes, guitar is a loudinstrument.
Yeah, there it is.

Yeah, absolutely, you know, we don't want it to
be loud, for the sake of loud,you want it to be.
You know, like compelling andyou need to play to certain
volumes.
The dynamics actually are athing.
And right, you know, trust,like compelling and you need to
play to certain volumes, thedynamics actually are a thing.
And you know, trust, that youhired the right people to play.
You know.

Greg Koch (11:50):
And you're always going to find somebody who's
going to say you guys werereally loud, you know, and
you're like, well, yeah, well,that's kind of what we do, you
know, and I always kind of makethe comparison.
It's like, look, we are playingin the spirit of all the
musicians we were influenced by,who I guarantee you, if they

(12:10):
were playing in this club wouldbe deafening, and we're nowhere
near what that would have been,because we're not using 100-watt
Marshalls.

Okay, that's why that thing sits here as a nice,
you know paperweight.
You know Exactly.

Greg Koch (12:26):
Yeah, it looks great on camera but again to your
point, we're not complaining.
However, you know you love toplay and you're there to play
music and you want to play musicfor people.
You don't want to not havepeople like it.
You're there so that you can doyour thing for the people that
want to show up and hear you doyour thing, for the people that
want to show up and hear you doyour thing.
And if people are going, oh no,you really need to rethink your

(12:51):
entire modus operandi in orderto conform to the, to the recipe
of this place in Blumenstock inDeutschland.

You know what I mean it's it's.

Greg Koch (13:01):
It's kind of like hey , you know, you know who you
booked, so just kind of chalkthis up to.
We'll do our best to kind ofperform to the room within the
confines of what we do, andthere it is.
But a lot of them can't do that.
They just they get real, realuptight, real uptight about it.

There was a very funny thing.
The guys I'm touring with thekeyboard player's name is Walter
Fischbacher and he's originallyfrom Austria and we've been
living on in New York for 30years.
We've been playing togetherforever.
They're moving back, he and hiswife, and there was a picture
of us at the 55 Bar togetherfrom 2001.
I'm like, wow, okay, you know,you're going back a ways.

(13:40):
Yeah, yeah.
So we get to the gigs and he'syou know, a keyboard player
plays a lot of jazz, just amonster player.
And the bass player is a bitmore jazzy.
And I start playing.
They're like whoa, whoa, whoa.
And I'm like, no, no, thisisn't loud, you don't know loud,
this is not loud.
And I'm like let's play mytunes.
It's not a jazz gig, I'm a rock.
Usually, whatever you want tocall what it is, we do right.

(14:03):
And so the drummer startsplaying.
I'm like I, I guarantee youlike I have to be with him.
It's me and him.
He sets the volume.
You cannot play super soft whenyou play my music.
And it was very funny.
After a few gigs they were like,oh, you're right.
And I'm like, yeah, I'm right.
And at a club, like one clubclub, we were like, oh, wow,

(14:30):
it's really loud.
Then afterwards he was one ofthose nice nights he goes.
I was really worried becauseyou know you're, because you
brought in an amp.
And afterwards he said you know, I didn't have to touch
anything, I just, I didn't doanything.
Yeah, I didn't have the pa on,just except when you were
speaking.
I didn't have anything onexcept for you know the keyboard
, you keyboard, you know, andI'm like, yeah, and he goes, and
you guys like it was never tooloud, it was, and I'm like we
always call it professionals,right, you know, yeah, so it's

(14:54):
trust that we know what we'redoing.
I know we sound bitchy, butit's changed.
It has changed.

Greg Koch (15:08):
It used to be.
You can, people understood thatvolume was a thing, right.
I find that you know, in thelast five years where we've been
touring extensively in theStates really for the first time
, I've always done, you know,certainly regional stuff for
years, but most of my stuffwhere I was traveling all over
the place was mostly clinics,band performances, but you know,
kind of under the auspices ofyou know, if we had an anchor
gig someplace, but usually whenI was doing the Fender thing
we'd do full band things.

(15:29):
You know, they weren't reallyat clubs, right.
So all my touring was in Europe.
So that was kind of my thing.
Oh, europe's so much better fortouring because they've got an
infrastructure and they give youa place to stay and you know
the PAs are great and usuallyand give you a place to stay,
and you know the pas are greatand usually and they feed you
and so on and so forth, and thenin the states you're like, yeah
, you'll get a couple anchorgigs, and then it's door gigs

(15:49):
everywhere.
Well, how do you make that work, right?
Well, we figured out a way tomake it work, which has been
great, and what I'm realizing isis that most places don't give
a shit how loud you are here,which is crazy.
I mean, you show up to someplace and you do your soundtrack
and you're like, yeah, it'sloud, but it is what it is, and
you're like, yeah, thank you.

It's a rock club or you know.
Yeah sure.

Greg Koch (16:11):
Exactly so.
I've actually kind of got tothe point where I prefer touring
in the States, and part of itis because of that.
You know where you're showingup and then you're playing at
places that the only reason whypeople are coming to that club
is to see you and um, and youplay early, and that's pretty
much the same thing in the in inEurope too, although a lot of

(16:31):
times there'll be, you know,municipally sponsored events.
You know where they got alittle some dough for a music
series, and so there may be somerandos showing up that don't
know what's going on and thenthe volume might be a problem.
But um, over here it's.
You know whoever's showing upis there to see you do your

(16:52):
thing.
And you know, occasionally we'llI'll get an email like, oh my
god, you guys were so loud.
You know my wife and I had toleave after a half hour and then
I'll go back and I'll look atand I'm like I I can tell when
I'm playing and I'm looking outat a crowd if people are holding
their ears or not.
You know what I mean.
And if people are into it, it'sgoing to be too loud for
someone and that's beyond mycontrol.
I can't think to myself well, Igot to completely rethink the

(17:16):
way I do things, you know.
I mean, we have contemplated,like you know.
We've got this in-ear rigcoming, and I don't want in-ears
because I want a silent stage,I just want it for monitoring
purposes and also for maybeprotecting my ears a little bit
Right, sure, sure.

Which I was going to say, like I never leave the
house without earplugs, right,like I've got tinnitus, oddly
not because of my volume.
It was like I remember one gigI've talked about the drummer
was drunk and I'm like dude, you, you just gotta stop, like you
gotta.
And he just did not stop, likethat was egging him on.
You know like well not mydrummer and then it was like

(17:55):
from that night on me like youknow?
So, um, first I just had ahearing test.
You, the woman, was like wow,your hearing is surprisingly
good.
I'm like because I wearearplugs all the time, I don't.
I was trying to explain to theguys in the band.
I'm like, well, if, why are youwearing earplugs Then why are
you that loud?
If you need earplugs, I'm likeit's, it's, that's not how this
works.
Like let's have a discussionLike a cy's, not.

(18:23):
You know, you're trying toexplain Totally.
Yeah, but you know where?
Earplugs to a gig, which I do,I wear them in the subway in New
York.
Sometimes it just gets loud.
You, know, certain stations arereally loud, and I'm like, okay,
you know it's funny.
I sound like we're complaining,but it is, it is true.
In the States, though, I havenoticed the vines be less of a
thing yeah, yeah, it is toughwhen you're playing a gig and

(18:43):
somebody's going like this inthe front, you're like okay, you
shouldn't have been here anyway, because exactly, exactly, so
just one funny thing on thisthere was one gig we had a band
opening up for us, uh, in thislast tour, and they were fucking
loud, you know, and I said tothe guys that's loud and they
were like, yeah, you're totallyright.
They're like, okay, you're wenow understand what's going on,

(19:07):
like what is an interestingthing for professional musicians
.
We're so cat like beaten downover there to understand that
for this music to be what thismusic is, it needs to be at a
certain volume, without a doubt,where it ceases to be that
music.

Greg Koch (19:25):
But isn't it funny, though, when you see a band and
we've all been there, I mean,I've been on stage with people
where it's like I can't escape.
You know what I mean?
It's like it's almost thresholdof pain.

Yeah.

Greg Koch (19:38):
And I think well, I play loud but it's never that
Right loud but it's never thatRight.
A lot of that is.
You know, if you're using100-watt amps cranked that's way
louder than one 50-watt amp.

you know reaching you know exactly, you know what
I mean.

Greg Koch (19:58):
Yeah, yeah, I do, I do, but you know what are you
going to do.
Anyway, let's talk a little bitabout gear, because gear is fun
, always fun.
Now you know what are you goingto do.
Anyway, let's talk a little bitabout gear, because gear is fun
, always fun.
Now you've got some high-enddoggone amps back there.
Is that the Bloomfield Drivethat you got there?

I have the Bloomfield Drive, I got the
Classic Reverb signature and Igot the Studio signature and Eli
is my very good friend.

Greg Koch (20:18):
Yeah, he's a good man .
He's a good man.

So people are like how do you have three
T-Rocks?
I am very good friends with theowner of the company.

Greg Koch (20:24):
You know what?

I mean that definitely helps, doesn't hurt.
And, man, like, I grew up beinga Marshall guy, you know, I
went through the whole 80s.
You know JMP, 90s, 80s, 90s,jmp1, you know, with the rack
stuff, right.
And then you know the Marshalls, marshalls, I think.

(20:47):
I always think that people givemarshall a bad name in the
sense of, like theyautomatically think marshall is
like 800 or 2000 or like thelater sounding stuff, right, and
to me marshalls have one of thegreatest clean tones, totally,
you know, like a.
So that's an old super leadthat I've kind of got a bit more
to a bass spec.
That you know sounds amazing.

(21:09):
Yes, and the T-Rocks, how this,actually, how it really started
happening was I was well, youknow, I was working with Robin
and then I had the Marshall,which was just, it was cool, but
it was a tough.
Know, 100 watt marshall on agig, yeah, and then trying to
get that to work right and, um,I had, honestly, you're talking

(21:31):
about volume, I hadn't playedthat loud in decades, right, you
know, and it was so much.
So, you know, bless them.
I mean, I, you know, I, Iunderstand it, but it got to the
point I think I I could say hewon't care Like I would have to
angle myself.
So I was nowhere in the line ofhis amp because I had to turn

(21:56):
my own stage volume down,because I was too aware of what
I was playing.

Greg Koch (22:00):
Sure, I know what you mean.
Sure, I know what you mean?

Yep, yeah, I was above the mix on stage.
I'm like no, I can't do this.
So, um, the two rocks reallycame into being much more
manageable and I just love theway they sound and Eli, the
master volumes on them, or youknow, it's just a really
well-designed, beautifulsounding amp.

Greg Koch (22:18):
Um, now do you find yourself using those where
you'll set them just on thebrink and then use pedals from
there, or do you like to do thechannel switching thing?

no, no, I never, almost never, channel switch,
and most of times in new york Irun it clean with pedals, right,
just because you know I got themaster volume on my pedal board
, you know, so I can controleverything at all times.
Sure, absolutely.
And then also I just like usingsome effects and the delay in
front yeah, yeah, not dealingwith the effects loop and
effects loops are cool, butthat's another cable running to

(22:47):
the back of your amp.

Greg Koch (22:48):
Exactly.

I understand it dog.

Greg Koch (22:51):
Gone it.
I know I had submitted to the,you know when I had that
signature amp with that companywith my same last name, of which
I just parted company with nottoo long ago.
I love the amps and there was awhile there when I was just
using a cord right into the ampbecause the channel switching
actually made sense, yeah, andthen I just didn't use any

(23:15):
effect because it had harmonicvibrato on it and it had really
nice reverb, so I just pluggedstraight into it.
And then after a period of timeit was during COVID where I
started you know you want acouple little, you know, maybe a
little delay here and there, alittle this, that and the next
thing, and you find yourselfusing your overdrive.
And I've always kind of saidthis a million times on this

(23:35):
doggone podcast thing, but Ialways find that when you're
recording, you know an amp,overdriven, sounds more natural
than a pedal per se.
But pedals feel better live, Imean, where you can just feel
that incremental push when youstep on that screaming shit box
and it just makes the world abetter place.
But it's like but you know, anoverdriven amp just sounds

(23:59):
better.
It's the same thing when yougot a Marshall cranked it, man
it's, and you turn the volumedown.
It sounds awesome.
But sometimes you crank thatvolume all the way up and you
just want another increment.

Sure, I do, I do.

Greg Koch (24:11):
And it's the great struggle.

A lot of my stuff .
There's a lot of ambience, forlack of a better word.
You know delays and reverbs andI just really like that.
It sounds trio, usually reverbsand I just really like that
sounds trio usually.
So I try to mix up sonicallywhat's going on and I just find,
with the, the channel switchingand then, like we talked about
the, that four cable method,like I, I don't have the

(24:35):
patience for it.
And some guys got that shitdialed in.
I'm like you know you never.
Okay, here's the main thing younever know what you're gonna
encounter.
So if I'm running through agood sounding clean amp, good
clean platform, then I have mypedals that I really enjoy.
I've worked time-tested pedalsthat I love and I have complete
control over the whole thing.
Is it as great as if theMarshall were cranked?

(24:56):
Maybe not, but that's not goingto happen, right, totally, yep.
So I'd rather be happy with,like, oh, it's a little loud,
okay, I'm just going to roll offmy volume pedal on the board or
I'm going to turn up a littlebit.
You know whole thing.
So, uh, yeah, but um, andchannel switching, you know,
like I don't know, I've, I've.

Greg Koch (25:21):
I've gotten away from channel switching.
Yeah, there's only a few timeswhere it feels good, and then
that I just go back to, althoughI have been.
You know, I've been using thisTone King Royalist which I
really, really like, and it'sgot two channels, but it's kind
of an interesting thing becauseit's like two Marshalls in one.
So you've got attenuators forboth channels.
I set one kind of JTM 45 and Ihave it up around, you know,

(25:43):
five or four ish, you know, andthen I can set the second
channel to be more like a plexiand just dime it and you can go
between those two things.
That's pretty awesome.
But then again I got to dealwith if I'm using a bit of delay
.
Then I got to have the delayway down in volume for that
second channel and then for theother channel.
It's barely audible.
So then I just started ended upusing the clean channel, but

(26:06):
even so I set it just on thebrink of breaking up and that
seems to be working.
So you know, as you know, it'salways some damn thing, but I
find that anything less than 50watts for me with my band I just
can't do it, and I used toalways love 10s, but with the
way my son plays drums and Tobywith the organ.
I need 12.

(26:26):
I need, I need that biggerspeaker to just give me a little
bit more oomph.
And as much as I try to kind ofcurtail, uh, use the attenuator
every now and again to try tobehave, it's like.
It's like within three tunes,it's like if I want to be heard,
I got to fucking crank thisthing.

And so it's like, if I want to be heard, I gotta
fucking crank this thing.
And so, yeah, it's like for meit's that 30, 50 watts, 40, 50
watts.
I need them because you wantthe overhead, overhead headroom,
you want that you got someplace to go, because there's
nothing.
I had like a 20 watt marshall,sounded great.
Until that one gig I was like Igotta get rid of this thing.
Like, right, sounds amazing.
And then you play with a band,you're're like I got no place to
go.
I turn up, I just get moreoverdriven, right, yeah, so I

(27:07):
just need that extra freedom.
You know, and I've had thisconversation, I'm sure you're
the same with like, you know,like, for instance, like Matt
Schofield we've talked aboutthis a bunch Like, when other
people play my guitar, they'relike oh man, this is really loud
.
Other people play my my guitar,they're like oh man, this is
really loud.
I'm like, yeah, but I neverhave the volume on 10.
Like, I'm not, it's, it's allinteractive.

(27:29):
So if anybody sits in on my rig, they're like yeah, like, yeah,
like, no, no, no, no, no, it'snot the way I.
You know, I'm like am I playingthat loud and people like no,
no, you're not, it's, it's youjust know you, you learn how to
do your thing, and so it's allvery dynamic and nerdy yeah.

Greg Koch (27:50):
And volume knobs work .
You know they're there for areason.

And it's everything is from the volume
knob, which is to me.
I love that, you know.
And nerdy stuff.
Like you know, my friendMichael just made me this guitar
, this beautiful, you knowbeautiful, and uh, like placid
bluish creature, placid blue,yeah, yeah.
And I got him to finally likesaid don't just don't put treble
bleeds on us, don't put treblebleeds in, you know, for me,

(28:17):
right, um, because I love howwhen you roll back it, if you
have a buffer on the ground, youknow they keep you're, you're
just rolling off that little bitof spank on the top end and you
know, so you have all thosedifferent things just on the
guitar.
So when you know, jeff, backperiod, you know what I mean.
Like it's just everything.
There is minimal pedals andit's all just from the guitar,

(28:37):
you know.

Greg Koch (28:37):
Exactly Correct.
Yeah, so let's talk a littlebit about just, you know,
because it seems to be a subjectthat people talk about quite a
bit I mean uh, online.
I, you know I gotta be honestas much as I'm sure the same way
we make our living in a hugeway about online things.
Yeah, I'm not one to engage ina lot of uh.

(29:00):
I mean, if someone asks me aquestion, I answer it, but I do
not like to get involved inbrouhahas online about one thing
or the other.
I just don't do it.
I mean, even if you know, Ijust don't.
I never feed the trolls, I justlike the best thing you do with
a troll is just not respond atall and they just sit there on

(29:21):
the vine withering away intoinsignificance, where they
belong.
Absolutely sit there on the onthe vine withering away into
insignificance, where theybelong.
But but the whole idea of youknow making a living as a
musician you know it's uh.
You know you'll have people whoyou know had storied careers
with you know some kind of a?
Uh, a famous band at some pointor maybe they did, you know had

(29:47):
various different label dealsback in the day.
I've had label deals.
I've always made more moneydoing it on my own.
Everything I've ever done hasbeen a result of kind of keeping
control of everything myself.
Yeah, and then, you know,pivoting when necessary.
But the whole thing has beenhow do I make the music I want

(30:07):
to play, uh, write the music Iwant to release and be able to
wear a t-shirt, whatever funnyhat I want to wear without, and
do the very least to conform towhat I think people want?

yeah yeah, well, is that a question?

Greg Koch (30:26):
as opposed to, you know, doing whatever has to be
done to fit into the realm ofwhat people think needs to be
done in order to be popular andthen being bitter that it
doesn't work out.
It's like I love everything Iget to do.
It's fun.
I figure you know I'm totallygrateful for just the

(30:48):
opportunity to do anything thatI can musically and make a
living, because it gets to thepoint where you think about, as
you've done it long enough andyou understand how the business
works, just how the world works,yeah, like you're entitled to
nothing.

Zero.
I have a lot to say about allof this.

Greg Koch (31:10):
All right excellent.

Kind of a constant conversation with many
of my friends.
So I'm not in the musicbusiness.
I look at it that way.
I make my living primarily fromeducational stuff, so I often
see that I'm in the happinessbusiness.

Greg Koch (31:30):
Yes.

You know I have a group of people who really
enjoy the courses I put out inmy YouTube videos, my teaching,
that I connect with and that'sextremely important to me as a
person and an individual that inthe realm of what the world
really what comes at the end ofthe day is that you have family
and you have friends, right, youknow what I mean and hopefully,

(31:54):
your health and security, allthose things that are really the
most important things.
So I know, you know, when you,when you're teaching or you have
somebody write you an emaillike I, you met a total
breakthrough for me and you knowit's just something you kind of
did off hand.
I mean, I take that veryseriously and I feel like, okay,
you know so what's important inlife?

(32:15):
Okay, yes, I wanted to be thebig rock star.
I'm going to cover a guitarplayer.
You and I are friends with someof these people, right, and
some of those guys are not allthat happy right now.

Greg Koch (32:24):
No, indeed not.

You know, because the pivot never happened, or
they, you know all these things,whatever, not the right
personality, not, you know,there's a million things.
So by when I said, when I gotout of the music business, was
you know, same thing insidebands that just kind of never
went anywhere.
You're touring it and suddenlyjust kind of went away, or that

(32:47):
style of music, just sort of thelabel folded.
You know all the things.
Sure, Absolutely yeah, you knowall those things.
And then you're like, oh, Ibetter start doing something on
my own.
You know, Am I without, youknow, competitive envy at times?
No, of course not.
You see somebody who's, likeyou think, kicking butt and then

(33:14):
you talk to them and they'relike how are you doing this?
you doing you know, like, howare you know?
And you're like, oh, wait aminute, what you know, right?
So, um, also, I kind of came tothe conclusion at one point.
I mean I like touring to anextent.
Then after a while I want to gohome and hang out with my
family and my, my dogs and mycats.
Like I'm a, not a home bodynecessarily, but you know, when

(33:35):
I was out for like six weeks ata time, I was like okay, right,
okay.
Then you come home with a chunkof change and you don't have
any fucking work for a whilebecause I was in a band.
I was in a band, you know.
And so, um, the naturalprogression of what happened was
I just started.
I have to say the real pivotpoint for me was getting

(33:56):
involved with TrueFire when itfirst started.
Right, like filming videos withthe air conditioner to turn off
in between takes and Brad, theowner, laying on a couch in
front of me while we're filmingthis video at like 720.
Right, and I had a full head ofhair.

Greg Koch (34:10):
Yeah, I understand, like we're talking 18 years ago.

So, um, and so I just kind of embraced the
technology.
I started teaching on skype andthings like that as soon as it
started to become viable, rightand um, uh, and the same thing
happened with tree fire.
Uh, you know, I love the guys.
You know, there's nothing.
I was like I have to do this onmy own, like I have to take
ownership of everything that Ido, because that's how I'm going

(34:34):
to make the most money andthat's how we have complete
control over everything that Ido.
And, you know, release thingson a schedule.
It's way more work than youknow, but I just found that I'm
happy on a certain.
You're always like you.
You know you're always going towant something you don't have.

(34:54):
I think you know right yeah, butif you like you said you, if
you stop for a minute and you, Igo, fuck man, I get up every
morning and all I got to worryabout is how I, what do I do
next with the guitar?
Right, right, exactly.
Like, holy shit, like, I madethis happen, I made this, I'm

(35:18):
making this work.
Right, you know is it?
Is it the way you imagined whenyou were, when I was at
Berkeley, you know, looking atIngvay and the cover guitar
player, eric Johnson, with the?
You know, and then you know,then you, you, as you know,
you're friends with all theseguys and you, you know it's, you
find out.
Well, there's a few things.
It sounds we, I'm 56.

(35:40):
I'm not.
I think we're in the samegeneral bracket.
Where, when we first got into it, selling records was a viable
thing, right, right, like therewas a music business.
You know what I mean Like, andthen it all kind of changed.
You know so, um, so either youjust you pivot and you figure it
out or you don't.

(36:01):
You know, I know it sounds kindof harsh, but and it's funny, I
have friends call me like oh,you know, man, I see that you're
doing well and youtube thing'sgrowing, and you're here all
over the place like so can youexplain to me what you're doing?
I'll explain, explain.
And they're like oh, yeah, fuckthat you know.
Like, okay, well, I have aschedule of videos and I might
have to get a video out eachweek.

(36:21):
I want to put out a course eachmonth at this point, or at
least a masterclass.
I have to plan ahead.
This video is not doing well.
I got to do my thumbnails I tomake sure the title is right.
Oh, this video is Coder Tanking.
Let me try a new thumbnail.
Oh, now it's going up.
Now, let's you know, likethere's all sorts of analytics.
It's like this is not.

Greg Koch (36:38):
Yeah, it's not for the faint of heart.

No, and I've talked to friends like you can't
do it half-assed like theYouTube world, like I am
fortunate to be have beenadvised by like Rick Beato, you
know, like he's a friend andjust kind of sitting down with
me one day at dinner in New Yorklike Jeff, you know, and just
talking honestly about financesand you know like what can be

(37:02):
done, what can be accomplishedand all that and I'm like, wow,
I gotta, I gotta shit or get offthe pot, right, right, right.
And I was at it sounds like aname drop and not me and Grissom
were walking around NAMM a fewyears ago before COVID and I
looked at him and he looked atme and in all the panel people

(37:23):
were YouTubers.

Greg Koch (37:24):
Right.

You know, like not players.
I mean not.
You know, yeah, they'reYouTubers, sure, players.
I mean not.
You know, yeah, they'reYouTubers, sure.
And you're like, wow, this isnot, this has changed.
And I said to him, like I hadthat moment of clarity of like,
either I commit to this or I'mgoing to be a dinosaur.

Greg Koch (37:45):
We interrupt this regularly scheduled
gristle-infested conversation togive a special shout out to our
friends at Fishman Transducers,makers of the Greg Koch
Signature Fluence Gristle Tonepickup set Can you dig that?
And our friends at WildwoodGuitars of Louisville, colorado,
bringing the heat in the shadowof the Rocky Mountains.
I will say that where I've.

(38:08):
You know I do some stuff on myYouTube channel and I've been
doing it during COVID.
You know I did live stuff on myYouTube channel and I've I've
been doing it during COVID.
You know I did live streams, uh, four times a week.
Now it's two times a week, butI'm on the road a lot.
So I've had my buddy Ryan whouploads, uploads um reruns if
you will, and you know we'retrying to build the channel up,

(38:29):
but but all my stuff that getsthe most views are on everybody
else's channels, you know.
And of course I've done thisstuff for Wildwood for years and
you know and they've got prettygood numbers out there, but
they never monetize theirchannel because those videos
were different.
It wasn't about the amount ofviews, it was just are the
guitars selling?
So whether a video would get athousand views or tens of

(38:52):
thousands of views was reallyirrespective of the mission.
So it was kind of an interesting.
But at the same token, thewhole reason why people know who
I am is because those Wildwoodvideos and you know I had.
You know articles in GuitarPlayer Magazine, you know record
deals, you know on Steve Visethis and blah, blah blah.
But all these guitar magazinesand don't get me wrong, I'm

(39:12):
grateful for all blah blah, butall these guitar magazines, and
don't get me wrong, I'm gratefulfor all that stuff.
But the vast majority of whypeople know who I am is because
I did the Wildwood videos andit's well that, and you're just
an unbelievably great guitarplayer.

Communicator.

Greg Koch (39:25):
Well, there's that.
You know that was the one thingthat helped was to be able to
uh, to talk and be.
You know, and I will say this,I I say this to my wife, you
know, when I go to, I was at, uh, this thing at Sweetwater this
past week they were doing guitarfest and to your point where
you have people coming up andthey say you know the nicest
shit, like, hey, you know, thistime when you you showed this

(39:47):
thing and that completely openedthis up for me and dah, dah,
dah, dah, dah, and they talk toyou like they're buddies as
opposed to fawning over someone,like when they get around
someone like Yngwie, where it'slike very much royalty and
subject, you know what I mean.
People's whole mentalitychanges and it's not good.
You know.
I remember I sat next to, uh, Isat next to Eddie Kramer at some

(40:11):
thing years ago at uh, uh, thatCosmo music thing up in Canada,
and they would just put randompeople together for signing.
So I'm sitting next to EddieKramer and he's cool.
You know I'm talking, you knowa little bit of Hendrix stuff,
but just, you know, kind ofmatter of factly, you know not
super fan-ish, and we sit downand these people would come up
to Eddie Kramer and they'd havetheir Zeppelin records and their

(40:33):
Hendrix records and their kissrecords and they would start
shaking and they'd get reallyweird and be like can you, can
you sign?
No, no, sign it there, sign itright here.
Hey, you know.
And then and be totally likekind of psychotic and then they
would turn to me and they'd belike hey, greg, what's going on?
I really enjoy.
Totally normal, what's going on?
I really enjoy.

(40:53):
Totally normal.
Like we were just buddies and Iwas like you know what, I'll
take that any day of the weekover, some kind of weird
reverential psyops?

Oh, absolutely.
Yeah, I mean like I it, it.
It's just I'm trying.
I'm trying to put my thoughtsin order here.
Yes, and I appreciate like yougo to NAMM.
I think it was funny.
I was walking the dogs in thestreet with my wife one day and
some guy's like excuse me, areyou Jeff McElhain?
And I'm like, yeah, you know.
He's like oh man, I love yourstuff, and blah, blah, blah,

(41:26):
blah, blah.
And he was really cool.
I'm like, yeah, and therewasn't weird.
So my wife said happy, you knowperfect.
She's like did you pay that guyto say that Are we married to
the same woman yeah, exactly,yeah.
Yeah, you pay that guy to saythat Cause.
What do you know him?
I'm like no, but I agree withyou entirely.

(41:48):
It's like you've, they've.
I mean, it's a bit weird whenthey act like they really know
you and you're like, well, Idon't know you, I don't know you
, Right right, right, when theystart saying hey, now your
daughter and your son and you'relike, oh, wait a minute.
So that's very rare that thathappens.
But I'm very thankful and takevery seriously the whole thing.

(42:12):
I enjoy teaching.
I really do.
Now you know the differencebetween, say, you and I is like,
you're known as a player moreso than I am, because you really
went full hog on that.
I mean one, because you knowyour playing speaks for itself.
But you made that your priorityof you.
Know that.
You know, and I sometimes lookat, I wonder, you know, if we

(42:35):
get deep thoughts with jeffmackerman, like you know, there
was a lot of fear involved, likeso much failure prior to that
of bands not making it likeyou're signed or you're like
you're going to.
You know, virgin came to ourgig.
They were we're really thisclose and our singer just said
something really fucked up onstage and they were like, okay,
yeah, it's not something.
Yeah, you're done right, yeah,exactly, you know like, and

(42:56):
you're like we get to this pointthat they're like we got jason
flom at our fucking gig.
And then you go ahead and saysome crazy shit, right, ruined
it.
Yeah, like, just boom, you knowlike that and sorry, we're,
we're going to pass.
Okay, yeah, and so it'scrushing.

(43:16):
It's crushing.
So the teaching thing I thoughtfor me was really like you know,
this is moving, this has gotlegs and I enjoy it.
And you know a certain degreeof security that I have not had
the majority of my life.
And look, I love the peoplethat I meet.
I mean some of the people inthe walks of life.

(43:37):
You know, teaching being what Iused to teach I don't really
teach privately anymore, but youknow New York City, you meet
some fascinating people and thenI worked in that movie with
Robin Williams and taught guitarand that Like all these things
that just happen through that.
So these life experiences thatcome around are really, really
amazing.
Um, and then that's, you knowpeople like why do you live in

(43:57):
new york city?
Because these things happenwhen you live in new york city.
For all the downsides there's ifyou use location, location.
Location still holds true to alarge extent.
Yeah, totally.
But um, so I envy, like youknow.
I look at you or oz.
These guys are out there justplaying all the time and you
know, like, like Oz is one ofthose guys.
That kind of like asked me,like what I do online.
He's like, yeah, I know, fuckthat.
Well, good for you, man, butyou know, like I, perfect that's

(44:21):
you, don't you have claritythat that's not what you want to
do, totally.
So I like what I do and I got akid who's got to go to college.

Greg Koch (44:28):
Well, that's a fact, you know.
I mean it's like people havefollowed me around, like this
buddy of mine I grew up with andwent to college together and
you know, he's a musician guybut he's a school teacher and uh
, teaches English but gigs allthe time.
And he went with me to a NAMMshow one time and he was
following me around.
He's like oh my God, he goes,how Cause you're going nonstop?

(44:50):
You got to do stuff nonstopwhen I'm home.
I mean I mean again, this isnot complaints, but this is just
.
You know, when people thinkit's all Jaeger and blow and
whore, you know what I mean.
It's like, of course it's allthose things, but I know, but I
mean it's like, oh my God, uh,I'm out of merch.
I just realized I forgot to get.

(45:12):
Uh, you know, I got to orderthose hats and oh, I haven't had
books for a while.
I got to order the books.
Oh, that book is out.
Okay, I got to get the Grissompedals.
If I don't have those pedalsfor the tour, that's like.
You know, that's a pivotal partof how we make the dough, and so
you're thinking about all thatstuff, let alone.
Oh my God, I got to get thehotels.
I got to blah, blah, blah.
Oh, and then, of course, I havefour kids and a wife and want

(45:34):
to make sure I don't, you know,shortchange that in any way,
shape or form.
So there's all the things thatgo involved in that.
So it's like you know, and Iquit partying, it'll be 30 years
this year that I do everythingright.
So, although I always thinkit's just me, but I never post
any of that stuff online becauseit's like it's supposed to be
anonymous, right, it's like Idon't want to get added on the

(45:57):
bags Like hey, you used to be atotal shit heel drunk, wild man
and now you're not.
So you know, different life, Iguess I just said it.

So I guess I'm not being anonymous.

Greg Koch (46:09):
Congratulations.
Well, thank you, but the pointis that there'd be no way I
could do what I was doing if Iwas partying None whatsoever,
especially at 58.
Exactly, I mean there'd be noway I could do any of those
things.
So I mean I enjoy everything Iget to do.
But if people are like, well,you know.
And then, but the other thingis people assume is like, oh,

(46:30):
you're going on the road.
And then, but the other thingis, people assume is like, oh,
you're going on the road.
It's like, well, the onlyreason why he's making money is
because, you know, he's probablydoesn't pay his kid.
And it's like, no, motherfucker, it's because I pay everybody
the same.
Everyone gets the same as I get.
But you know, we have a lot ofmerch that we sell, and I have
been around long enough that,even if I play on a Tuesday
night and Kepsie or wherever itis, enough people will come out

(46:54):
that, even if it's kind of a notthe greatest night attendance
wise, I'll make up for it at themerch table and the next night
might be sold out, and then thenight after that might be
another.
Oh my God, there's 30 peoplehere.
You know what, though?
They bought $1,500 worth ofmerch.
So, between all these differentthings, at the end of the tour
you look at your money and, likewe made grownup money.

(47:14):
You know this is money that youknow, my son and Toby, I mean
last year, I mean it's, you knowit's, it's salary money.
So, uh, of course, I got all myother things that I do on top
of that, because, again, we gotkids, we got houses, we got cars
.
Yeah, um, but it's and, and and, as, as I say, I don't take any
of it for granted, I'm not.
You know.

(47:40):
Everything I get to do, I enjoydoing, and I realized that any
one of those things could dry uplike that.
You know what I mean In aheartbeat, in a heartbeat, and
so you just make yourselfavailable to the next thing that
comes along.
And you know if everything wouldgo away and it would just be
like, okay, well, I guess youknow we'll live on what my wife
makes and I'll just kind of gigaround town.
Well then, so be it, teach somelessons and be done with it.
You know, but it's as you know.
It's like you know, when you'retalking about doing those

(48:01):
videos and cutting those thingsup and figuring out the
algorithms and then figuring out, okay, what's another way I can
explain this that's going to benew and exciting.
Oh, this guy just passed away.
Now be a new, new and exciting.
Oh, this guy just passed away,now we can.
You know this is.
You know, he was an idol ofmine.
You know, let's do a specialsegment on it.
You kind of always got to havethe antenna on and it's not just
around sitting around like well, where, where am I going to gig

(48:23):
this weekend?
And you know it, just as far aslike not considering all those
other ways of making an income,because it's because of all
those different things thatyou're able to do the stuff you
really want to do, am I right?

Yeah, absolutely yeah.
So I mean it's this tour, likeyou know, I gotta, I gotta get
my CDs printed up before I couldbe like, oh man, I don't have
enough.
you know just the thought thatyou know, yeah all those things,
cause I'm in and then, um, butI can, it was all the I have,
excuse me courses andpre-recorded YouTube videos that
I'm busting my butt to getready to put out whilst I'm on

(48:56):
the road.
Right, so I can.
Yeah, so this is not, you know.
So I'm on the road and I'mstill running my business.
Thank God you can, you can.
It's all online and lots ofplanning, but you know, I think
it comes down to the you know,entrepreneurial people.
You know who happen to playguitar.
You know who happened to playguitar.

(49:18):
You know, I think, uh, as I havea students have dealt a lot
with people in finance.
Because you're new york, youknow, like, you're like, wait
what?
Yeah, just come on the showwith me, we'll jump on the jet.
You're like what?
Like, just like, just when you,when you see that level, you're
like you're like, wow, that onepercent of one percent is
something I cannot evencomprehend.
Right, you know what I mean.
Yeah, anyway, you know, one guysays like man, you know big guy

(49:42):
at a very huge finance, youknow finance group.
He's like I would hire you in asecond.
Because you like, if you weredidn't if you were into finance.
If you were, it didn't, if youwere into finance, if you went
in that road.
Cause you're just, you pivot,you look for inroads for things,
you're not looking back atstuff.

(50:02):
Okay, now, okay, that's notworking anymore.
So what's the next thing I gotto do?
To keep on working.
I mean, I I just attributed tocoming from a Scottish Catholic
upbringing where, you know, Iremember working on my uncle's
sheep farm in Scotland as a kidand you know he just was like I
had to go on his hike and Ididn't want to get out of bed.
He's like get out of bed, youbloody, wee pansy.
You know, you know, you know,and that was politically

(50:25):
incorrect at the moment, ofcourse, but you know, in 1982,
but it was just, and my familyhas always been that way.
I come up from that, thatupbringing of like I had to be
on my deathbed before I couldstay home from school, you know
like.
So I just kind of look at, likeyou said, nobody owes me
anything and although you'd likeit, you know anything, oh,

(50:51):
you're really man you've been.

Greg Koch (50:52):
How'd you score that gig you like?

oh, I love, don't you love that?
Oh, man, you're like.
Well, it's so weird.
I was in my basement playingguitar and somebody just
happened to hear me when theyrocked off you know what I mean,
you're like exactly yeah, it'sa weird one and you're like well
, I, you know I do abcdefg, youknow I committed busting my ass
here, pal, that's how ithappened exactly, and you know,

(51:13):
and happily so, and.
But I mean, okay, so we talkabout lamenting certain things,
like I get let playing go, youknow, for a really long time,
because this weird the downsideof sometimes my mentality would
be the money would come first.
I mean, I got a family, so Ihad to make the money come first
, sure.
And so you get so caught up inthis thing and suddenly, like I

(51:35):
haven't made a record in ages,like and I'm not even really
gigging that much what happened?
So people would say like, oh, Ididn't know, you do, you don't
do gigs right, or anything.
I'm like, no, no, and nobodycalled me for gigs because I
just wasn't in circulation, or Ijust thought you did your thing
and I'm like, yeah, but thatdoesn't mean I can't do your

(51:55):
thing Right, right, so, yeah.
So I'm sure you probably getthis too, because we're known as
the guy who does our thingRight, and that's okay.
So it's interesting, you know,and this is where I can't thank
Robin enough to have just kindof said like let's do something
together.
Robin enough to have just kindof said like let's do, let's do
something together.
And then it got me back into theidea of like oh man, I really

(52:16):
like playing the guitar in frontof people the most.
You know that is my favoritething to do.
Next, you know that's I likedoing the videos and teaching,
but having a great gig there'sjust nothing like it, you know.
And so that was cool.
So it may be, and at gigs itwould be.
After gigs, people come up tome like, oh man, oh it's, I have

(52:37):
all your true fire stuff.
I had no idea that you couldplay Right, I got that a lot,
you know.
And then what are you going todo when you're teaching?
Show off on a video.

Greg Koch (52:49):
Come on, it's not about you, but I also think a
little bit of it is is thiscompartmentalization that people
have in their brains.
They can't fathom that you cando many things well and that you
need to do all of those thingsin order to put a living
together.
And I and I and again I findthis, you know, when I'm doing

(53:10):
gigs with the band, I mean I'llhave somebody come out and
they'll be uh, you know, I hadyour, um, you know your Hal
Leonard books and that's how Ior I had this particular video
back in the day, and that's howI know you.
But, man, I really enjoy theband, it's great.
Or they might come out and youknow they come from all these
different places, but the thingthey always say is like, man,

(53:30):
this is no.
I mean, what you do online is nocomparison to live.
I mean, this is completelydifferent.
It's like, well, this is whatit's always been about.
Everything else I've ever donehas been things I've enjoyed
doing.
I put my all into it, but ithas all been life support so
that I can do this, because thisis what it's always been about.
I mean, and that was early on.

(53:51):
I mean I was always abouthaving my own band.
You know, I found out prettyearly on.
I was.
You know, I am a good sideman,I play well with others.
It's just that I've justrealized that I don't want to.
I'm not a follower.

Yeah, yeah, oh.
And somebody says hey, can youplay the record, the solo?
Like the record, you're likewhat?

Greg Koch (54:12):
Right.

Exactly.
Then I had times to I havefriends who do Broadway gigs and
I go, you want a trail?
I'm like, oh, yeah, sure I'llcheck it out.
And they're one, like one ortwo trails.
You're like, fuck this, right,yeah, I got to read that from
the book and then call becausethey all, you know it's a very

(54:38):
tight-knit community and so I'mnot going to be first call, your
second call, you know I'm not.
You know I'm going to be thethird guy.
So I have to be up on the book,right.
And then I know I'm going toget the notes because I'm an
improviser.
I just came to that conclusionat some point.
I grew up, my teeth were cutwith a bunch of like downtown
new york jazz guys on the roadplaying funky, medley, fusion-y
shit, and solo sections werejust when you cued your head.
And suddenly you're like wait,wait, wait, what no solo?

(54:59):
Or like you want me to playwhat's on the record?
Or I got to learn, like I justhave no interest, right, I'm
with you.
So when I came to thatconclusion at one point, like,
yeah, I just love improvisedguitar, everything that I love
the most is that, theimprovisation, it's the
interaction for creatingsomething exactly um, yeah, and
I'm not knocking someone, likeyou know.
You see, like you know, likeroger waters, I go see him every

(55:22):
time, you know as a fanatic,and you're like, oh, it's a
glorified cover band and I'm notknocking the guys who've got
great guitar player, you know,sure, but they gotta play those
parts it's, you're in.
And even Waters said it likesomeone.
How does it feel when you knowDavid Gilmour not on stage and
she goes?
Well, I have him on stage everynight.
You know that guy, he plays theguitar solos.

Greg Koch (55:43):
Yeah, that's, that's not it.

And then right and so and I'm not knocking
someone, sure, no, I understandwhat you're saying and there's a
challenge.
But even what I've heard, thisguitar player just popped out of
my head.
Great guitar player, oh, theguy's doing the gig.
He just said well, you know,some nights when you're playing
Comfort, your Number, you'rejust like, yeah, how can I hit
that vibrato tonight?
Because you just played thatsame solo every night verbatim

(56:08):
and you have to find somethingcreative that exists in that
thing.

Greg Koch (56:17):
But don't you think that it's changed from when we
were younger?
Because remember when we'd beinto a band and you'd get the
record and the band was a trioor maybe a four-piece, and you
know that they overdubs things.
But then there had to be thelive version, right, so they had
to rework the song for stageand then that became its whole
other thing and you'd always be,oh, I prefer the live version

(56:39):
more.
And then what has seeminglyhappened with the advent of
legacy bands and radio kind ofnot embracing new music, even by
those legacy bands, that they'dgo out and see these bands
sometimes only featuring theoriginal sound man, you know
what I mean.
And they would just they wantto hear those tunes as they were

(57:01):
on the record and it justtotally I have no interest in it
.
I just I want to hear.
That's why I always loved theAllman brothers is because you
knew it was.
It was going to be differentevery night, whatever kind of
came to mind they were going todo and any band that improvises.
But I feel that it's it'sbecome kind of a um, as far as
like the everyday person, youknow, like if they go out and

(57:23):
see a show, for the most part,they're expecting that legacy
act to not take liberties withtheir arrangements.
Yeah.

Yeah.

Greg Koch (57:32):
Yeah, and that to me is just, uh, it's a little sad.

I don't want to get caught up in, like I think
Steve Martin put it best hecalled it old, old fogeyism
right, which which I think canbe rampant on the YouTubes of
the people in our generation,like you know, look, there's
still great music being made out.
Oh, no doubt.
And people say like, oh,there's no good music anymore.
No, you're not looking hardenough.
Of course there is, I mean, alittle cliche.

(58:00):
It's more like something likeMadison Cunningham.
You're like I saw her live afew years ago, knowing my
friends are like, oh, you got tocome check her out, she's great
.
And I'm like, all right, thisis amazing, this is great.
Yeah, and it's not just likegreat guitar playing Cause like
we love guitar players, but myfavorite stuff are the guys who
play guitar and great tunes.

(58:20):
Yeah, of course.
Yeah, of course.
So I don't want to sound likeold fogey, like you know that I
mean there's a lot of greatstuff out there.
But I'm with you, I'm notinterested in hearing a live
cover situation too much youknow.
Cause it in hearing a livecover situation too much you
know, because it's just, it'snot what, it's not my bag, man
Right.

Greg Koch (58:35):
I mean, I understand it, you know, I totally get it
and I understand the need it'snot for us.
But it's just not our thingwhich is fine.

It's just not for us.
And that's when people say likeoh, don't you love them, like,
yeah, it's great, just not for.

Greg Koch (58:55):
Look, I don't need a million people into my shit, I
just need enough.
And as long as you have enoughpeople into it and you get to do
your thing, man, I'm happy in apig and squalor.
I don't know because we, I meanand not to get too old fogey
about it but we know that moreoften than not, that impetus
that took that person or groupover the edge to make them more

(59:19):
mainstream or whatever the case,most likely was bullshit.
I mean, yes, it had to be goodenough, and then back in the day
, there seemed to be a lot ofexceptional people that you know
was able to get past thegatekeepers, but for the most
part, bullshit rules the roost.
Yeah, I mean that's not.
I mean that's just the way itis.

(59:39):
I mean we see it in anythingfrom you know politics to movies
, to, I mean, the way the worldfunctions.
And, and again, it's not to be.
I don't, I don't get bitterabout it.
I'm even more grateful, knowinghow things actually run, that I
have it as good as I do.

That's the way I look, I'm nodding my head in
agreement, which you cannot see.
Yes, yeah, I'm trying to thinkwhat I was going to say there.
But that, but it's, it's.
I think it's just when you getolder, you know, you just cut
through the bullshit more.
You just see bullshit moreclearly and you're not, you know
, and you're like, yeah, I gottime for that, right, you know

(01:00:16):
people are excited about this orthat and like, yeah, what's
that?
What?
Like, you know, I don't even.
Yeah, so is that?
How's that going to affect me?
It doesn't.
It's the same thing when youflip through like instagram or
some sort of thing, or like myapple app news and you're like I
have no idea who this famousactor is that they're talking
about.
I have no idea who they are andI don't care exactly.
I don't care whatsoever.

Greg Koch (01:00:38):
Exactly correct.
Yeah, I got enough stuff toworry about.

Jeff McErlain (01:00:43):
Yeah, well, it sounds like we're.
This can sound like we'recomplaining, but like I'm not
complaining, it's.
It's been great.
I'm very appreciative that wethe technology has provided us a
way that we can are master ofour own destinies in that sense,
you know, if you work your assoff, you keep your your.

(01:01:04):
You know, follow the trends, dowhat you got to do, you got to,
you know and stick with it.
And it sounds like you can doit.
But it's a lot of fucking work.

Greg Koch (01:01:15):
Well, no doubt about it, and but it's like one of
those things where I I think Iposted a little thing not too
long ago, which I don't usuallylike to post, that kind of stuff
but I did it anyway.
Uh, kind of just saying hey,you know, I drove seven and a
half hours set up, you know,work, the merch table, play the
gig, and I loved every minute ofit.
You know, because when you lovewhat you do, it's not work.

(01:01:38):
I mean, there are moments whereyou get up and you're like, oh
my God, I'm dragging ass.
But to your point, you wake upand you go in your room and
you're surrounded by yourguitars and you're like I get
paid to do this shit.
I get to play and sit and makethe music I want to do and
people want to hear it and Ihave fun deconstructing it and
showing them how to do it andthey love that.
They're so grateful for it.

(01:01:59):
It's a, it's a beautiful thing.
I think you know when you think,when you think back to you know
I remember uttering the wordswhen I was in high school or
whatever, I'm going to be richand famous.
It's like that was the goal tobe rich and famous.
And and then you realized youwere around some other people
that thought the same way, butthen you realized you just loved

(01:02:20):
playing so much that all thatother shit didn't mean anything
anymore.
Yeah, you know, you're just like, well, yeah, if that happens,
maybe it'll happen.
And of course, you know youhave delusions of.
Well, if you're really reallygood of, can maybe sing like an

(01:02:44):
angel and have a look that'sundeniably attractive and can
play your ass off, well thenmaybe you might get plucked.
But if you're just someone thatplays really good and writes
some tunes that are right offthe beaten path and so on and so
forth, you're gonna have towork your ass off in order to to

(01:03:04):
make a living and uh, but youknow what?
Again, we've somehow managed todo it, which I um again yeah, I
mean, I'm, you know.

And then there's also that philosophical question
of having been around.
Uh, some of those people at the1% of the 1% Right, are they
happier than me?
No, no, generally speaking,they are not.
I agree with you, it's neverenough.
Things are never enough, right.

(01:03:31):
And they're looking to the guywho's got 50 billion as opposed
to 5 billion and you're like,like there was some sort of
video I saw that you know, likeif you made $10,000 a day, it
would take you how many years tomake a $2 billion.
Like some sort of crazy thing.
Like you know, in 200 years youstill wouldn't have as much

(01:03:52):
money as this guy of making$10,000, whatever the you know,
you understand what I'm saying.
So you know, and my wife issuper grounding in a sense, when
we talk about this, she's likehow much more?
Like you know, yeah, you wantto make more money, but I mean
what's enough?
Like not that I'm making, youknow what I'm saying.
Like it's living in New YorkCity is a very different

(01:04:17):
equation of how much is insomething.
Yeah, but you understand whatI'm saying.
It's like, you know, at somepoint you're like, oh, you know,
things are okay, like I, youknow, I, I can take some time
off, I can do a tour, and I can.
You know, it says, do thesethings, and so, yeah, I'm really
grateful about it and it's cool.
So you just kind of settle inand go yeah, I play guitar for a
living.
How I figured it out?
Still trying to figure it out,but I am super happy.

(01:04:40):
You know, absolutely, it's aglorious thing.
Yeah, it's a glorious thing itjust never gets old.
I mean, I wake up in themorning.

Greg Koch (01:04:49):
First thing I do is get alittle coffee and if my wife's
getting ready for whatever, I'llbe like, all right, I'll just
pick up the guitar and just sitthere and start playing until
she comes down.
And then we'll shoot the shitfor a while and just sit there
and play and it's like this isawesome.
I mean I, that's my favoritething to do.
I don't know about you, but Idon't have hobbies.
It's like I've made this joke athousand times.

(01:05:10):
It's like I'm not in a dartleague, I don't.
I don't golf.
I can't imagine dedicatingthree hours to a game.
I just can't.
I just can't imagine.
I mean, I can see it and I did.
I, it's not like I haven't doneit.
I remember one time I went upwith this old buddy of mine I

(01:05:30):
grew up with and he's like let'sgo golfing and I can't golf for
shit.
But I went out and uh, and Irealized, oh my God, for like
three hours here, no one can youknow, I don't have to take any
calls, I'm not expected to beanywhere else, I'm out in nature
.
I was like, okay, I get it, butat the same token, three hours
away from what I need to do isjust I can't fathom it.

Yeah, well, this is that entrepreneurial kind of
driven thing, like I talked tomy friends about this, like I
can't relax, like I am.
You seem kind of like that guyto me too, like the brain is
always maybe I'm just projecting, but you know, sunday night,
saturday, saturday night I'll behanging out.
Maybe you have the dinner withmy wife.
And I'm like shit, I got to getthe course done, I got to get

(01:06:14):
this.
I got to think about what.
Okay, I got it.
I haven't.
You know, like I got it, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah.
You know, wake up in themorning first thing you're like
well, you know, like, all right,I got to get this done, I got
to get that done.
How's this video doing?
Like it's so, it's, it's weird.

(01:06:35):
But, um, you know, it's funny.
At one time I was at a partywhen we were talking about music
and he's like well, do you haveany hobbies?
And I'm like like it was a verydismissive thing.
I said then you don'tunderstand what I do, right,
because there's no, I don't seethere's no room for other
hobbies.
Yeah, I like watching movies, Ilike reading books.

Greg Koch (01:06:56):
Yeah, reading books, you know exactly, but I I like
reading books, reading books youknow.

But I mean, yeah, to go out and play golf, like
for hours or like what do youmean?
Painting Like this is so allencompassing whether it's and
happily so like so much stuff,yeah, like watch you play
something.
I'm like, oh, how's, I don'thave that in my bag.
And then suddenly you're offand running and it's an hour or
two later and then you justwhere did?

Greg Koch (01:07:19):
this start.

Oh, I started this from somebody that's a Greg
play.
Oh, like, there was a video youhad posted something on
Instagram of you playing somesort of blues on a Strat and I
was just watching your vibratoand I'm like, fuck, what great
vibrato.
Oh, thank you.
But that was it.
I'm like okay and I'm not.
But then, but that was it, I'mlike okay and I was like okay,

(01:07:40):
he was doing that whole Claptonsort of thing and I find that
something that I have.
It's a weakness of mine.
Like you know what I mean.
Like you're got those biggerhands.
I think there's something to dowith it too, but it was so
controlled.
I'm like I know what I'm goingto work on today.
And then suddenly you know youjust start to do your own thing.
Absolutely it sends you downand you're perfectly happy and I

(01:08:04):
think most of my friends, likeyou, know they're going to go
out and have a smoke orsomething.
I'm like I'm just going to playguitar for five minutes and
then suddenly like everythingsort of centers again and you
just right and you're like thisis the greatest gift.

Greg Koch (01:08:21):
If I don't play guitar for a day, I am not
pleasant.
Oh man Right, I get a littletesty.
Yeah, me too.
I mean as testy as I get.

It can even be for like 10 minutes, right, I
mean even just to just connect,you know, um, but yeah, it's a,
it's a real I don't want tosound I, I I'm torn between
being this sort of esoteric attimes and being, you know,
anti-theist, as you know,richard dawkins, or, or you know
, uh, you know and um, this,this pragmatic scotsman in me,
but, like you know, it's a realgift like I can't imagine, you
know, near, I can't imagine, um,it sounds really douchey, but
sometimes, sometimes, like, whatdo other people do, like, when
you don't have the thing likewhat?
Well, absolutely, when somebodydoesn't have a thing like a

(01:09:10):
passion, I'm, I, it sounds.
I don't want to come off assounding, you know,
condescending, but I'm just sograteful that.

Greg Koch (01:09:20):
Well, exactly when you get to be our age and you
think about other friends ofours are like retiring, and
you're like what do you meanretiring?
What does that mean?
What are you going to do?
You're going to sit here likeI'm going to play until I can't
play anymore.
Yeah, happily.

Yeah, yeah, exactly yeah, and so I just I
just find that to be, you know,very, very fortunate.
So you know, how do we go fromgear into this?
Actually, you asked thatspecific question.
Oh, and the online haters I getplenty of them too, and I just
look at like that's like the guyin the subway who's a jerk, you
know, like there's just jerkseverywhere, like they just

(01:10:00):
happen to be in front of akeyboard to and I try not to
post anything negative, what'sit do?
Just brings everybody down,exactly.
There's so much negativity inthe world, why be like Totally.
It doesn't bum you out whenyou're like flipping through
like threads or something, andit's a nice post.
And I'm an animal lover, wejust rescued another cat, like
all this kind of stuff, and youwatch something.
So my, my feed is guitars andanimals.

(01:10:21):
It's just funny.

Greg Koch (01:10:22):
So I'm a sucker for the animal video myself.

Yeah, yeah.
And then sometimes like, oh,you should never do that to a
cat.
Blah, blah, blah, blah blah,and you're like it's like
somebody sticking their fingerin your food.
You know what.

Greg Koch (01:10:33):
I mean.
Exactly this person just findyou know, I will say that it's.
I've been extraordinarilyfortunate that, because of the
nature of of what I do is notreal.
You know know-it-all-y, or youknow kind of you know
testosterone-y, as they say.

(01:10:54):
Yeah, I don't know, anybodysays that, but anyway, uh, it
doesn't really invite.

Is that by chef?
By Rd?

Greg Koch (01:11:00):
Exactly, it's a delicious Tasteroni, exactly
Some kind of pasta dish, um.
But I don't get too many, youknow, overt, just haters.
I mean every now and again, butI never.
I mean I used to.
If it was just so outlandish Imight put something funny as a

(01:11:20):
response, but now I just, Iliterally just don't do anything
, cause you know and then causea lot of times I'm sure you're
the same way.
It's like someone will writesomething You're like is this
person even real?
And then, and then you'll clickon their ID and you'll go over
and they'll have their YouTubepage, will have no followers and
they've and they've onlycommented on two things, and

(01:11:42):
it's both on your channel andyou're like boy.
I wonder if I know this person.

Yeah, yeah, what's?
Yeah, I know.

Greg Koch (01:11:50):
What's the modus operandi here?

You know what I mean, I think my favorite one I
got was you were the worstguitar player in the world.
I'm like the worst.
There's no worse.
Thank you, I know it's justwell.
You know, I think there's acertain degree of of jealousy,
you know what I mean.
Or there's this they they havean image of what they think it's

(01:12:14):
all about, or or something, orthey think you know it's a weird
, you know, or something youknow.
It's a weird, you know, peopleare angry all over, and I think
you know, unfortunately, I thinkthe world has become angrier,
Right, and I think social mediais a big part of that anger.
Yeah, you know, and I think soWould.
People would never say thethings to you.
Nobody would come up to you ina bar and say like you're the

(01:12:36):
worst guitar player in the world.
So the social norms, so I justtry to concentrate on the
positive.
But those bug you.
The ones that bug you the mostand I've heard somebody talk
about this are the ones thatkind of have a grain of truth to
it.
You know deep down that maybeyou didn't kill that thing.
You know what I mean, Right,yeah, and then you're like why

(01:12:58):
is this person living in clicherent free in my brain, you know?
And then you'll think about itall day and you're like I don't
even know this fucking guy.
Like who is this guy?
You know, it's like the guylike I said, New York that bumps
into you and is like a dick.

Greg Koch (01:13:19):
You're like, it's been an absolute blast shooting
the breeze with you chewing thegristle, as it were.
We're actually going to be outin your neck of the woods.
It'd be great to see we'regoing to be uh, I think we're at
the Iridium on November 24th.
It's a Sunday.

Fuck.
Okay, here's the last time youplayed Iridium.
I was playing a gig with MattSchofield at the Bitter End same
night.

Greg Koch (01:13:38):
Oh, you're kidding me .

That's why I was not at your last gig, and I will
be in England teaching at theend of November for guitar
breaks, so I, once again, I willnot One of these days we'll get
it together.
Yeah, it's too bad.

Greg Koch (01:13:54):
We'll make it happen one of these days.
Dog on it yeah well it was apleasure man.
An absolute pleasure talkingwith you.
Dog on it.
Yeah Well, it's a pleasure man,An absolute pleasure talking
with you.
It was great hearing your storya little bit more and getting
inside your brain and hopefullywe'll cross paths soon.
Yeah, that'd be awesome, man,All right my friend, take it
easy, have a good one.

You too, Take it easy man.

Greg Koch (01:14:13):
You got it.
Bye-bye, bye.
Thank you so much, folks, fortuning in.
Special thank you to WildwoodGuitars of Louisville, colorado,
and the mighty FishmanTransducers for making this
podcast possible.
If you enjoyed yourself, ladiesand gentlemen, please subscribe
and review so that people canget the word out that this is

(01:14:36):
worth experiencing.
Can you dig it?
Thanks again.
We'll see you soon or you'llhear me soon.

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