Mike Irish

What happens when two guitar virtuosos reunite after years apart? Greg Koch welcomes his former mentor Mike Irish to Chewing the Gristle for a masterclass in musical wisdom that spans far beyond technique.

Mike Irish, who taught at the University of Wisconsin-Stevens Point when Greg was a student, shares his refreshingly inclusive teaching philosophy that embraced students' existing musical interests instead of forcing them into traditional jazz molds. "I really had no desire to make more Joe Passes and Pat Martinos," Irish explains. "I just wanted to take the talent that was there and nudge them in directions they might be interested in." This approach proved transformative for many students, including Koch, who found validation for his genre-blending musical vision.

The conversation explores the practical realities of sustaining a music career through what Howard Roberts called "industrial guitar" – the bread-and-butter gigs that keep musicians afloat. Both men share stories from their journeys, from Irish's innovative approach to building jazz programs by focusing on small combos rather than big bands, to Koch's revelation about the creative and financial benefits of mastering solo guitar performance.

With warmth and humor, they discuss their musical influences, from Chet Atkins to James Brown, and reflect on how technology has transformed music education. "There's really no reason to suck at this point," Koch quips about the wealth of instructional content available online today – though both agree that motivation and thousands of practice hours remain irreplaceable.

Whether you're a guitarist, music educator, or simply appreciate heartfelt conversations between passionate creators, this episode offers insights into not just how to play, but how to build a sustainable, joyful musical life. Drop in on this reunion between two masters and hear how their musical paths have woven together across decades.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:09):
Ladies and gentlemen, can you believe it?
It's already time for seasonsix of Chewing the Gristle with
yours truly Greg Cox.
So many delightfulconversations to look forward to
.
We'll talk about music.
Yeah, sure, but you know whatelse we're going to talk about
Anything that comes to mind, sostay tuned.
We'll talk about music.
Yeah, sure, but you know whatelse we're gonna talk about
Anything that comes to mind, sostay tuned.
We got some good ones for you.

(00:29):
Chewing the Gristle, season six.
Ladies and gentlemen, this weekon Chewing the Gristle, we have
one of my big mentors, MikeIrish, taught me at the
University of Wisconsin-StevensPoint.
He is a guitar playingleviathan as well as being an
extraordinarily talentededucator.
This week, we're Chewing theGristle with Mike Irish.

(00:52):
Ladies and gentlemen, boys andgirls, welcome once again as we
gather around the Gristle Firefor a little Chewing the Gristle
with yours truly GregoryCaulker.
I'm here with a mentor of mine,a great musician, a great

(01:14):
educator and a cool cat, who Ihave not had a chance to speak
with in quite some time.
So I'm looking forward tohaving a convivial conversation
via the inner Googles with themighty Mike Irish.
Mike, how the hell are you?

Speaker 2 (01:28):
I'm doing good, man, I'm still above ground, I see.

Speaker 1 (01:34):
Now, for those who don't know, mike was my
instructor.
Actually, you know, we firstmet when I was a junior in high
school and you were up at aplace called shell lake, which
was a summer program uh, it wasfor high schoolers mostly, right
, mike?

Speaker 2 (01:49):
yep, yep, yep and uh, when I, when I first met you,
uh, uh, I remember we had to, wehad to do like the uh, guitar
auditions and all that stuff andthis, this I think you were
only six, five then and uh, andyou walked in and played some
stuff for me and basically myjaw dropped, you know, I just

(02:11):
said whoa man, this guy canreally play.
And so, yeah, that was back atShell Lake and you were playing
a Telecaster, yes, and I thinkthat's the week that you swapped
with John Shoemaker, you arecorrect.
And you said oh, I got to trythat 335 because Mike just said

(02:34):
hey, this Larry Carlton guy, man, you got to check him out.

Speaker 1 (02:38):
Yeah, that was so crazy.
I remember you playing.
Well, what was so great aboutit, too, is that at that time,
you know, as a guitar player, somany times you interacted with
quote unquote jazz people.
They were dismissive of guitarplayers usually in general, and
if you were not playing a, youknow, a hollow body with flat

(03:00):
world strings and you had theaudacity to bend strings, you
were a heretic.
That's right, that's right.
So what was so awesome aboutyou is that you were like, hey,
what you're doing is really cool.
If you wanted to add this otherstuff in, you should check out
these guys who are kind of inthat mold as well.
So that was unbelievablyfortuitous for myself.

Speaker 2 (03:22):
Well, I had good mentors.
I mean, thank you formentioning me as a mentor of
yours, but I had really goodmentors and in particular one,
don Kiernan, up here at MichiganTech.
He had the philosophy of givingpeople a chance.
You know, he just said, okay,and he was pretty good at

(03:45):
recognizing talent, but givethem a chance.
And his idea of education wasokay, take them where they're at
and just nudge them maybe adirection that they might be
interested in.
And so when I was at StevensPoint, I really had no desire to

(04:05):
make more Joe passes and PatMartino's and things like that.
I just wanted to take thetalent that was there and just
say, hey, check this out.
In your case I think it wasLarry Carlton, and I think I
talked about Robin Ford, becauseRobin Ford had played with

(04:26):
Miles Davis a little bit and Ithought, well, that's kind of a
neat way to, you know, satisfythe academic jazz folks with
Miles Davis.
And then Robin Ford, greatblues player.

Speaker 1 (04:38):
Right, totally, absolutely.
And what's been so wild aboutit is I've got to be pretty
chummy with Robin over the years, which has just been bizarre to
figure that full circle yeah,yeah.

Speaker 2 (04:51):
Well, you know, after you were at school, you know,
while you talked about in your,your website and things like
that about George coming andhaving the talk with me.
Yes, you know, you know everywell, you come from a family of
professionals, right, you know?

(05:12):
Right, you've their doctors inthe families.
Your father was a lawyer, isthat right?

Speaker 1 (05:17):
Well, yeah, my dad was a lawyer and, you know, my
siblings weren't, you know, likedoctors or lawyers, but they
were definitely professionals,absolutely.

Speaker 2 (05:23):
Yeah, yeah.
So you know, I mean I can seethe concern because you know the
young spawn comes forth andsays I want to be a troubadour,
right and right away.
What flashes before your eyesis well, let's see poverty
eating out of a dumpster and nograndchildren.

Speaker 1 (05:44):
Boy, we're in for a surprise, that's right.

Speaker 2 (05:49):
So anyway, after you got out of college, you know I
followed you.
I've been following yousurreptitiously.
You know you got to look behindman, I'm there somewhere.
But I know you started doingsome studio work in Chicago.
Yes, you know, and that wasbefore the internet and all that

(06:09):
stuff, and I was just going.
I hope enough people can hearthis guy play, because if that's
the case it's going to catch on.
But I would imagine I don'tknow, did you have some like
lean years in there at all?

Speaker 1 (06:27):
Well, yeah, I mean, you know, when I got back from
from school, um, uh, you know Iwas in a band, uh, with that
Susan Julian gal and and thatwas a great band and she had
just got off the road with the,the Bodine's, and they had just
opened up for, you know, u2 allover the world and she had

(06:48):
management interest and all thatkind of stuff.
And when I play with her band Iwas like man, this could be it.
It's the right amalgam of allthe different things I'm into.
And it was a great band.
It was funky but it was bluesy.
There was a little bit of jazzinvolved in there as well, so it
was kind of a cool amalgam.

(07:08):
But it was kind of my firstforay into realizing how the
business works or doesn't work.
And so after about a year ofdoing that I realized this isn't
for me.
I got to do something else.
So I was up in Minneapolis for afew months and didn't play one
gig the entire time.
I was up there and I knewpeople too, but it was just.

(07:34):
It was the strangest, strangestthing.
It was very, very clicky andand I was having, and then I got
a call from somebody who said,hey, come back, let's put a band
together.
And and it was a guy I reallylooked up to this, this, this
bass player, singer, guy from,from Texas who could sing great.
So I came back and I did thisband with him for a couple of
months and we started to playall the clubs and festivals.
And then he's like man, I wantto move down to Nashville.

(07:55):
I've got some songwritinginterests, publishing interests.
So he leaves and leaves us highand dry, and so I was left with
the alternative.
I've had all these gigs on mylap and I said, well, we could
either just cancel them or Icould put my own band together.
And so I realized, right thenand there, that I was just going
to run my own band.
Yeah, was that the ToneControls?

(08:17):
That was yeah.

Speaker 2 (08:19):
So that goes back to like 1990, late 89.
Well actually 1990, right, yeah, yeah, and then.

Speaker 1 (08:25):
I just kind of did it from there and we would
encounter various differentpeoples over the years that you
know, whether it be the guysfrom Tower of Power, or one of
the guys the guitar player wasgoing to try to get us a deal,
or Paul Barrere from Little Feet, or my buddy Catfish Hodge, or
you know, t Lavitz, all thesedifferent people I knew.
And or you know T Lavitz, allthese different people I knew,
and they really enjoyed the bandand they would do sessions with

(08:50):
us and gigs and so on and soforth.
But there was just neveranybody going.
Hey, why don't you play with usover here?
So I was like, maybe I'm justdestined to do my own thing,
yeah.
And then when the Fender thingcame along, that was my
opportunity to kind of expand itbeyond the area here.
Because you know, the one thingI always ran into was, you know
, the stylistic thing.
You know I always liked allthese different things.

(09:10):
You know what?
I mean I like blues, I, you know, and I considered that kind of
being you know the nucleus ofwhat I did.
But I also enjoyed all theseother different elements and
wanted to add that all in there,not to talk about me because I
want to talk about you.
But yeah, that's kind of whathappened.
And then, you know, I actuallywas through a Fender clinic,
that down in Chicago, the guyGary Gand, who owned Gand Music,

(09:35):
he's like man, do you dosessions?
And I go well, yeah, I mean Iget called here and there back
in Milwaukee.
He's like, well, I know a guydown here that he does sessions
all the time.
This guy named Terry Fryer.
And you know when people saythat stuff, but you know, do you
ever really get a call?
And literally two days later Igot a call to do a session and
then off off to the races.

(09:56):
So I would go down there fairlyoften and do stuff.

Speaker 2 (09:58):
Yeah, well, it's like we, you know, told Kit when
we're at Stevens Point.
You know, steve Zenz and I hadwell, just short story long, no
long story short.
We've got plenty of time newdean there that they really

(10:28):
needed to have.
We were just going to do a jazzstudies minor on the music
education degree.
That's what it started as.
But the new dean came in fromCincinnati Conservatory and said
to Don Green, the departmentchair at the time, and said hey,
you know, you should reallyhave a jazz program.
And when I was a graduatestudent there, I just dreamed

(10:49):
big man.
So I wrote up a proposal to Donand it was just a project for a
master's degree program and Iexplained exactly what they
needed the personnel, theyneeded, the budget.
I just went the whole nineyards man and I got an A on the

(11:10):
project.
So Don stuck it in his drawersomewhere and then the new dean
comes in and talks to him andsays oh hey, don, I think you
should think about having a jazzprogram.
And he said oh yeah, here, hewhipped it on his desk and it
was about a week later.
The dean calls up Don and saysget this guy in here, I want to

(11:34):
talk to him, no kidding.
And I brought in Steve Zenz andwe went in and we sold it and he
said well, we got to have somemetrics.
You know academia, right, right.
And so some, some metrics asfar as enrollment, graduation

(11:57):
rate, retention and all thatthat stuff.
So anyway, he basically gave usthree years and so Steve and I,
you know, went to work, and Iwas, you know.
They said, well, your, yourteaching load should be 12
credits.
Well, I was up to 17 and I'mlucky I'm still married because

(12:18):
it was my wife, deb, who said,you know, while I was still
teaching, public school says,says, you know, you, really, you
got to go to graduate school.
So she had a cherry job at thattime.
So she put me through schooland I'm forever grateful because
, you know, I ended up with 35years in the college ranks and
everything.
So it was, it was great.

(12:38):
So anyway, we put it on Paul'sdesk and he gave us the metrics
and, long story short, webrought in the three-year
metrics in two years.
Excellent, and the rest ishistory.
So then we were able to bring insome other people John Rad, bob
Case, you know and we got thevocal jazz thing going with

(13:01):
Chuck Reichel and all thosepeople, and so it was really
successful.
But our approach was everybodyelse was doing like Lawrence
Conservatory and UW-Green Bayand Eau Claire and, you know,
all the Midwest powers.
There they were all doing bigband.
So you know the big band, youknow we got five big bands here,

(13:23):
but Steve and I I, since we'rerhythm section guys, which is
unusual for a director of jazzstudies totally yeah.
So we said no, no, the worlddoesn't, uh, you know, revolve
around big bands anymore.
Right, it revolves aroundrhythm sections.
So that's what we did.
We, you know, we had a ton ofcombos.

(13:44):
You guys, you know, wereplaying in combos and stuff you
split off.
I think you had a what coldshot, you know, at the cabin and
all those places where you saidthat you majored in beer, which
may have been true.

Speaker 1 (14:03):
Yeah, I was a little thirsty back then, but you know
I'm still here.

Speaker 2 (14:10):
Six, seven can consume a lot of the taste.

Speaker 1 (14:13):
Yeah, back in the day .
Yeah, what was wild about backthen was, just to your point.
It's like, you know, when I waslooking for a place to go, it
was very, very frustrating.
I remember Herb Ellis had a newkind of GIT-ish school in San
Antonio.
I think it was called theSouthwest Guitar Conservatory,

(14:34):
even though technically that'snot really Southwest, but anyway
, and I was interested in goingthere because I was into the
blues thing and so on and soforth.
And Stevie Ray had just come out, the fabulous Thunderbirds and
this guy, eric Johnson, had comeout, and of course everyone
from Freddie King to JohnnyWinter and Albert Collins all
those guys were Texas guys.
So I was like I need to go toTexas.
And I remember talking to myparents.

(14:57):
I was like, listen, I want togo to this place down in Texas.
And they're like, well, is itan accredited place?
And I didn't know whataccredited meant from anything
you know.
And they're like, well, youknow you need to get a college
degree.
So just, you know, pick out anyUW school and um, and we'll pay
for it.
I'm like, awesome, of course,back then paying for college was
you know what, $1,400 a year orsomething like that.

(15:21):
But um, um anyway.
So I remember always hearingthat Eau Claire was the place to
go.
Yeah, that was.
That was the jazz school, jazzschool du jour.
And uh, and so I applied, I gotin, I got my roommate
assignment, all of that stuff.
And then somewhere over thatsummer, uh, prior to my freshman

(15:41):
year, I found out that therewas no electric guitar teacher
up there, there was only aclassical teacher.
That's right, I'm not goingthere.
And so I didn't go.
And so that first semester ofwhat would have been my freshman
year I took off and let me tellyou, that was when all your
friends are going off to schooland doing stuff and you're, you

(16:03):
know, it was just theself-esteem peters out just a
tad.
And then I remembered the greatexperience I had with you at
Shell Lake and my buddy, billYoung, was already going to
school in Stevens Point, yeah.
And so I was like, oh my gosh,she's teaching up at Stevens

(16:26):
Point.
So then I went up there, wevisited with my dad, or like
this is the place, this is theplace to go.
And but let me ask you this,cause I think you know,
obviously music businesses itchanges every minute, but you
know, back then it seems likethe two career paths that made
the most sense for someoneattending someplace like Stevens
Point back then was either togo in to academia to be a

(16:48):
teacher or back then you knowwhat we call a lounge musician.
What?
Because there were.
Even in Stevens Point itselfthere was a holiday inn where
you know you would go, and wasit like week or two week
increments where you wouldliterally travel all around the
kind of little United Statesjust putting together, you know,
gigs at these and you wouldstart off the night doing kind

(17:10):
of cocktail music, jazzstandards, so on and so forth,
and then you would play thesongs of the day and people
would dance and hook up withtheir cougars or whatever.
But that was.
That was kind of the recipeback then, right yeah, yeah, and
and people could work.

Speaker 2 (17:29):
You know, howard roberts howard roberts called
that industrial guitar.
I like that man, you know, andand and it's, it's putting food
on the table and uh, you know, Ithe thing about some of the
jazzers that I just, you know, Iwould go out on, you know the

(17:49):
pop gigs and things like that,and you always have the
saxophone player that shows upthat would just go oh, you know,
I got to do this.
I want to do Giant Steps, Iwant to do Countdown, you know
Right, I want to play Coltraneand you know, on break I'd say,
look, ace, don't all that, Iwant to play, I want to play
Coltrane.
And you know, on break I'd say,look, ace, don't take the gig.
Don't take the gig because it'sstupid.

(18:10):
It's stupid that you're here.
Either you do the gig and do itright, and enjoy it.
Yeah, yeah, I mean, and, and youknow, some, some people, would
you know, look at me and go like, well, well, you're a music
slut and everything, and I go.
No, I don't think so.
I think I want to do whateverjob I have as well as I can.

(18:34):
Right, and that's what we weretrying to get across to people
at Stevens Point.
We weren't telling you that,hey, this is going to be, you
know, your dream gig.
But you know, if you play thedinner theater at Chanhassen for
two weeks, you can throw, youcan put down some good cash, no

(18:56):
doubt.

Speaker 1 (18:56):
No doubt about it.

Speaker 2 (18:57):
And then and then that can allow you to do what
you want to do, right?
You know West Montgomery didthat.
You know everybody goes.
I can remember when he wasrecording for AMM Records.
You know everybody says, well,it's a guy that just plays the
octaves.
You know and he had some greatpop music that just you know,

(19:20):
windy and all that.
But then you go and look at theriverside recordings.
Right, he was a fucking genius.
Yeah, no question you can blipthat out yeah, absolutely no,
that's all good west said that.
West said that.
Okay, I'm, I'm popular.
You know people are giving mecrap about it, but now I can

(19:43):
afford to.
You know, do a week at the jazzgallery in Milwaukee, right,
right, and things like that.

Speaker 1 (19:51):
So, Well, the bottom line is is that I think that
there's uh, I would I was justtalking about this yesterday
with somebody and it's somethingthat's crossed my mind lately
is that I think there's a lot ofpeople that look at their
musical abilities as just ameans to an end oh, I've done
this and I've got this and soI'm entitled to that as opposed

(20:13):
to the people like myself andyourself who just love to play
and it's all about being in themoment.
So, whether we're doing ateaching gig or doing a video or
doing a cocktail gig or planour own stuff, I enjoy it all in
various like.
It's like I talk about pizza.
It's like I like all pizza.

(20:35):
I like some better.
Same thing with coffee.
It's like there's not badcoffee to me.

Speaker 2 (20:45):
For sure, for sure.
Yeah, that's the way it's gottabe, man.
Um, yeah, I.
I retired from Michigan tech in2018 and somebody said to me
the other day, or you know?
I said well, are you still?
You know?
What are you?
What are you going to do?
Are you going to still do music?
I go, are you kidding, right?
So I've got a.
I, you gonna still do music.

(21:07):
I go, are you kidding, right?
So I've got a.
I've got a horn band.
It started out as a four-pieceblues band that we put a funny
little story.
There's a place up here calledthe library bar and they've had.
You see, that's a great thingfor a college town, right?
Hey, mom and dad, I'm going tothe library, brilliant marketing
there we go, yeah.
So anyway, they called me up inuh august and said uh, starting

(21:31):
in september, we're having uhtexas rub barbecue on uh
wednesday nights.
We want a blues band, can youput?

Speaker 1 (21:38):
one together.

Speaker 2 (21:39):
I'm going like holy crap.
So I found, uh, I, I knew a, agood young blues player singer
like Albert Collins, stevie Rayand I used a bass player and
drummer that I've used foreverand we put it together in like
two weeks.
So we played as a quartet everyWednesday through New Year's

(22:02):
and then they said, well, okay,no more.
You know when I worked with agreat piano player, eddie Russ.

Speaker 1 (22:10):
Oh, I remember Eddie Russ yep.

Speaker 2 (22:12):
Yeah, you remember Ed .
Ed said whenever you get a gig,first thing you think of is
where are you going to go afterthis gig ends?
Right, you've got to bethinking about it right away, so
anyway.
So we kept the quartet together, but the guitar player said hey
, man, I've always wanted toplay as a blues player said,

(22:33):
I've always wanted to play withthe horn section.
So I go.
You came to the right guy, sothat was 15 years ago, it was
2000.
Oh, 17.
Let's see 2008.
Yeah, or whatever.
My math isn't good, that's allright.
Musicians can count to fourExactly, and you know, 5'8 is

(22:56):
only three and two.
So we did that.
And so I've still got this bandgoing now I love it.
So we did that, and so I'vestill got this band going.
Now I love it.
And I've had a solo guitar gig,solo jazz pop things, for 23
years, nice, at this tea room,and there are three local

(23:18):
singers that I'll back, eitheras just me or with a bass player
, bass player and drummer.
So anyway, I'm, I'm happierthan a clam man.

Speaker 1 (23:29):
Awesome.
Do you still have that oldES-175 with the single pickup?

Speaker 2 (23:39):
I don't, but let me tell you.
Let me tell you what I've got,though.
I got a 1981 Epiphone HowardRoberts, the one we made in
Korea, really well made.

Speaker 1 (23:47):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (23:48):
That's my solo guitar workhorse Nice.
But then I've got a whole bunchof stuff.
I've got to show you one realquick.
Yes, this is my brother-in-lawis a woodworker.
So I said, hey, build me aTelecaster body.

Speaker 1 (24:06):
Oh, look at that.
Oh my God yeah.

Speaker 2 (24:09):
So he calls himself the Old Tortoise.
So this is the Tortocaster, ohthat's beautiful.

Speaker 1 (24:14):
What kind of wood is that?

Speaker 2 (24:15):
Well, let's see, we've got walnut, black, cherry,
american ale, which is hard tofind, and something like Babinga
.

Speaker 1 (24:29):
Babinga, that looks glorious.

Speaker 2 (24:32):
Yeah, and the other thing is it's solid enough that
it sustains forever.
So, anyway, that's one of them.
Yeah, anyway.

Speaker 1 (24:41):
Let's talk a little bit about when we were, when we
were in.
When we were in, uh, at schoolwe worked out of that Dennis
Sandoli book, guitar lore, whichis a great book.
I still reference it regularlyand uh, and of course he was Pat
Martino's guy and and and hewas a Coltrane studied theory
with this guy and all that kindof stuff.

(25:02):
Where did you first run acrossthat theory with this guy and
all that kind of stuff?
Where did you first run acrossthat?

Speaker 2 (25:11):
that book and get that idea for for working out of
that.
There was a guy up here, uh,his name was Dennis Gorgas and
Dennis was a really fine, uh,straight ahead player and
everything and he had studiedwith Dennis in Philadelphia.
He moved here.
His wife was an artist but sheshe was able to work from home

(25:33):
and they always wanted to likeshe was of Finnish descent.

Speaker 1 (25:38):
Which many people are up there right.

Speaker 2 (25:40):
You got that right.
So this was like little Finlandfor them.
So, anyway, dennis was up hereand he gave lessons and he
started teaching me, likeDennis's ideas and everything,
and apparently took some lessonsfrom Pat Martino too.
So I had the uh, and so I I gotDennis's book and I realized

(26:03):
that it was a good referencebook.
Right, I mean, there's no wayyou could get through that thing
in a lifetime.
I mean, and, and very honestly,there's some things in there
that are technical curiosities.
Okay, right, I mean, but theydo teach you how to get around
the axe.

Speaker 1 (26:23):
Right, no doubt.

Speaker 2 (26:25):
And I remember when I was talking with you one time,
you know we had like lessons andstuff and you said, hey, I want
to learn how to play changes,you know, and a lot of people, a
lot of teachers, would say, oh,then we got to play, we got to

(26:45):
play straight ahead jazz to dothat?
No, you don't, man, right, Imean just think of, just think
of all the great harmony that,uh, steely dan had and weather
report, you know, and all guys,and that's what I was more into.
So I remember when you saidabout playing changes, you said,
well, let's look at some WayneShorter like El Gaucho, I think

(27:10):
you played that on your seniorrecital.
I think you're right, yeah, yeahand I think you played uh uh,
uh, room 335.
You know stuff like that, yeah,but with with good, with
changes, and I just soappreciated that a young,
extremely talented, creative guysaid, hey, I want to take it

(27:31):
the next step further.
I I may not play, you know,straight ahead, jazz or whatever
, but I want to know how to playchanges.

Speaker 1 (27:38):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (27:39):
That all just so impressed me.

Speaker 1 (27:42):
Well, thank you, I mean, you were, uh, you were a
great instructor in that regard,you know, and again, it was all
about being, you know, notbeing shot down, because I mean
so many times, and of course youknow, you realize as you get
older that you know, you, youcan deflect and just realize
that some people are justmiserable by nature regardless

(28:02):
as far as like wanting to talkdown to people and being
exclusive and all that otherkind of stuff.
But it was so motivating torealize that, no, it's, it's
perfectly fine to have this, youknow, these blurred lines of of
, of idioms and so on and soforth, that that's what your
vision is, you know?
Yeah, and you know I got totell you a funny story.

(28:23):
So, speaking of Robert Ford, sohe played on one of my records
and I had this descending seriesof chords and it was one of
those I love tunes that eitheryou know you can play over the
changes or you don't have toplay over the chain Right, right
, right and um.
And so it was this series ofchords where you could just be

(28:44):
like an E major pentatonic andit's going to do like the BB
King thing and it's going tosound fine over every one of
those chords, right, yeah, yeah.
Or you could let the good timesroll and get a little fun with
it and mess with it.
And so I was like Robin, I justwant to see what you're going to
do over this tune.
And he played the shit out ofit, of course, right away.

(29:05):
It was just like there was nolike.
Oh, let me figure this out.
You know what I mean.
But what I realized, what hedid, which was so interesting to
me, is that out of all thoseweird inversions I was doing, um
, he immediately gravitatedtowards whatever strong triad
there was in any of those chordsand play a pentatonic off that

(29:27):
triad Right and it sounded hipas hell.
You know it was.
It was, uh, it was reallysomething that um too, is that.
Oh, I lost you there for aminute.
I'm sorry we got a little dropout there.
Go ahead.

Speaker 2 (29:47):
Okay.
Well, what's going to beinteresting for the listener is
that you've made it your own.
Then you know, becauseeverybody's going to go up and
down the pentatonic.
And there's nothing wrong withthat, I mean, maybe he was a
soulful player man, yeah, yeah,but introducing just that other

(30:07):
approach which really is sort oflike, well, you're digging into
the changes, you know, right,right, and that's why you put
those changes in there.
Right, it's just like sayingwelcome to my world, right.

Speaker 1 (30:22):
Exactly correct.

Speaker 2 (30:23):
Come in and play.
It reminds me of a thing.
You know.
I was listening to a HerbieMann record, oh yeah, and he had
Reggie Young on there and andlarry corio right.
So I was listening to sayingthey're playing like uh, what I
say, you know, or whatever, anddoing this thing and reggie does
his thing and you know, with uhfuzz face or whatever, and

(30:47):
larry corio comes in and heplays, you know, just uh, like a
pretty burning blues lick.
Then the next phrase was likeright out of charlie parker,
right, but it fit, and Iliterally fell off my chair I
said what was that?
what was that?
And you gotta know, man.

(31:08):
I think I wore out the recordtrying to figure it out oh, yeah
, yeah, absolutely, yep.

Speaker 1 (31:14):
Yeah, I love those little, uh, those little
amalgams of things where peoplekind of, you know, jump the ship
and go.
But lately, you know, I'vereally been into the idea of
just randomly responding to whatyou just played, and it may not
be lick-oriented at all, youknow what I mean.
They're just like musicalutterances and because you know

(31:37):
we've gotten to the point now,especially with what I mean,
they're just like musicalutterances and because you know
we've gotten to the point now,especially with, I mean, just
the amount of information I meanwhen we think back about when,
you know, when we were younger,I mean it's like, you know,
you'd read about somebody inguitar player magazine and they
would mention and be like manreally into this.
you know like, just as anexample, when I got into Albert
Lee I didn't know any countryguitar players.
I knew Albert Lee because heplayed on this Clapton record

(31:58):
and I was like, well, where didhe get this stuff from?
So, I read this article aboutAlbert Lee and he's mentioning
Jimmy Bryant and Hank Garland,and you know, of course, chad
Atkins, who I'd heard of, butyou know Jerry Reed, I'm like

(32:21):
the truck driver from you know.
But back then it's like, unlessyou were really, um, you know,
a go-getter in terms of likesending away for exotic records
or going to conventions, yourrun of the mill record store is
not going to have anything thatdeep where you could actually
source this stuff.
So it was, you know, it wasreally, um, uh, a quest, quest
to learn this stuff.
Either you saw the person live,you knew somebody that kind of
played in that style, like oh,that must be the way that

(32:44):
so-and-so plays, because you,you know, and then you'd finally
get like one record, or someonewould make you a cassette but,
nowadays you could.
You know, I remember a coupleyears back I got this jango that
was a a newer jango reinhardbook had all these different
things of the stuff that helistened to.
You know you're like well,where are you going to hear
those records?
Well, somebody has uploaded allthat stuff to YouTube.
There's literally everythingyou are even passably interested

(33:08):
in.
You can find and figure out.
If there's not someonethemselves showing you their
stuff, there's somebody elseshowing it as a breakdown.
A lot of times it's wrong, butthere's other people that get it
right, and so I like to saythere's really no reason to suck
at this point.
Well, exactly.

Speaker 2 (33:25):
There's no reason.
There's no reason exceptmotivation, right, and see, you
know, you're a very talented catman.
I mean, I remember when youfirst walked in you played like
two or three licks at Shell Lakeand I go, this guy's got
incredible hands.
I mean, I call them athletesGeorge Benson is an athlete on

(33:49):
the guitar, jim Hall is not, youknow, and things like that and
I thought, whoa, this is, thisis really cool Anyway, but
people don't realize thethousands of hours you put in
man, and and there are a lot ofpeople that are still.
You know, god bless her.

(34:11):
God damn, one of the two, the,the people online that say
here's the secret.
Goddamn one of the two, thepeople online that say here's
the secret.
Do this and in 30 days you'llbe the hot shit of the world.
Right, it ain't going to work,dude.
No, and you know it takes thatmotivation and that's what's

(34:32):
lacking.
You had it.
All the great players have it.
And sorry, like you said, it'sall there.
It's all there.
Let me give you an all there.
Just quick story.
Okay, I got a call about amonth ago to play with a choir

(34:58):
that's doing a major new choirwork.
It's called Considering MatthewShepard, and the guitar book is
challenging.
So I've got to play acoustic,acoustic, flat pick, bluegrass,
finger picking.
I've got to play electric, I'vegot to play some blues.

(35:18):
I got to use a looper, go ahead.
And I got to play slide.
So now I'm, you know, I'm readyto, you know, crap the bed.
So what do I do?
I go online to Greg Koch andyou've got some wonderful quick
instruction about slide guitarplaying, how to do it,

(35:39):
especially the right hand,muting and everything.
Boom, I'm an average slideplayer right now.
I am not going to crap the badman Awesome.

Speaker 1 (35:51):
Thank you, dude.
Well, thank you, I love thatstory.
We interrupt this regularlyscheduled gristle.
Well, thank you, I love thatstory.
We interrupt this regularlyscheduled gristle-infested
conversation to give a specialshout-out to our friends at
Fishman Transducers, makers ofthe Greg Koch Signature Fluence
Gristle Tone Pickup Set Can youdig that?
And our friends at WildwoodGuitars of Louisville, colorado,

(36:13):
bringing the heat in the shadowof the Rocky Mountains.
Well, you know, it's.
I mean, like I wake up in themorning and after I make coffee,
which is absolutely paramount.

Speaker 2 (36:32):
De rigueur.

Speaker 1 (36:33):
I'll just sit down and grab a guitar and start
playing.
I just like playing.
It's like you know.
I tell the story about how youknow not to name drop or
anything but, um, when I visited, uh, I was out in the West
coast and Joe Bonamassa invitedme over to his place because I'd
known him for years and I'dnever been to his house to look
at all of his guitars, right?
So he's like come on over.
And he goes well, what do youwant to see it?

(36:53):
And at that point I'd alreadyseen all of his Les Pauls.
I said, let me see theTelecasters, right?
So we go out and he has thisother building.
There's kind of a little hutbehind his house.
That was whoever owned thehouse before.
That had a recording studioback there.

Speaker 2 (37:08):
But he doesn't use it as such.

Speaker 1 (37:09):
He uses it to store all of his guitars.
And he had a 1949 Broadcasterin there right, and so I grabbed
the broadcaster and I pluggedit in and it had the squishiest,
most delightful sounding neckpickup and he started bringing
other oh, check this one out.
I was like no, I'm good withthis one.

(37:30):
Once I sat down and I justwanted to play it.
You know what I mean.
I just like to sit down and play, and I think that's the thing
that maybe a lot of people don'tunderstand.
It's just, I play all day if Icould, and if there's a lull,
all my wife's like oh, I got todo something, and we just got

(37:52):
done doing a bunch of errands orwhatever, and she's got to do
something on her computer forwork, do some graphic design
stuff or whatever, and she's gotto do something on her computer
for work.
You know, do some graphicdesign stuff, or whatever the
case may be, I'll just sit downand I'll grab my phone and I'll
put on iTunes and I'll playalong with records.
Yeah, yeah, I mean, that's I.
Just it's as fun now as it waswhen I was, you know, 14, which
makes me think maybe I've notmatured at all, but I haven't

(38:17):
either.
I'll tell you that man, as Ilike to say, beat Jaeger and
blow.
There we go.

Speaker 2 (38:26):
That is so true.
You know there's a funny storyabout Lenny, bro, lenny, same
way he said you know he wasn'tplaying.
I mean, he was off in his ownworld doing his thing.
And you know, lenny, if youever looked at his right hand
he's got like nails, like youknow, adam's family, right, you
know, and everything.
And he played, yeah, right,mostly played with just nail,

(38:50):
you know, and anyway.
So a funny story.
Uh, bottom, uh, lauren Lofskywas telling me about this.
She says somebody was walkingalong the street with Lenny in
Toronto.
It's winter, icy and everything, and he's walking along.
He slips.
He's got his guitar, he slips.
Does he put his hand out tostop the fall?
Nope, it was like this Faceplants, face is all messed up

(39:16):
and everything.
First thing he looks at is, oh,my nails are okay man, let's
talk a little bit about yourinfo.

Speaker 1 (39:25):
You mentioned Lenny, bro, so you grew up.
You grew up in Leona, wisconsin, and I I did.
I always remember that becausemy parents have had a cottage up
North and we all the kids haveit now and it's in Krivitz,
wisconsin, and so during thesummers we would, especially
when the kids were younger, we'dgo to Camp 5.
Yeah, the lumberjack camp there.

Speaker 2 (39:46):
And right on the steam engine.

Speaker 1 (39:47):
That's right.
And so you grew up there.
So what was your motivation toget into music and who were the
first people you were listeningto?

Speaker 2 (39:57):
Well, first of all I started.
I have one sister.
She's 10 years older than I, ama wonderful pianist, but now
she's got arthritis, so Godbless her, she can't do that
anymore.
So I started playing piano whenI was, let's see, first grade.
So I played that from firstthrough sixth and sixth grade.

(40:17):
You know, it was baseball,basketball.
And I started playing guitar insixth grade and so I was.
My dad and my uncle and mygrandfather were amateur
musicians, but they were likebluegrass, you know, take it

(40:39):
down to the levee, you know, andthings like that.
And my dad played guitar.
He was a good tenor banjoplayer and he played the
chromatic well, they call itmouth organ, oh yeah, harmonica
and good player so.
And he taught me um to, youknow, like one, four or five,
except he called it first change, second change, third change so

(41:04):
he taught me all.
He said, well, let's playalabama jubilee.
Well, alabama jubilee has afourth change in there too,
anyway.
So, uh, you say, okay, here wego.
And then, uh, so I play that,and then you, and so we do these
things.
It was with my dad, so I mean,it was just cool, yeah, cool.

(41:26):
So at a very young age I was eartrained.
I understood basically thatthere are chord progressions and
one, four or five.
I didn't know the names of anyof this stuff until I went to
college, right, and I, once Igot there and I realized, oh, I
know all the theory, I stillknow the names.

(41:47):
I learned the names and aced itout uh, so, anyway, so I did
that and, um, uh, so my dadliked Chet Atkins.
At the time on television therewas a show that Jimmy Dean did
and his guest very often was RoyClark.

(42:08):
Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so he had an instrumentalalbum out called the Lightning
Fingers of Roy Clark.
Everybody had to have thatbecause you're like, you know
everything.
So I, you know, we, we weredigging that I would dig, uh, I
would dig chat, you know right.
Uh, I also was, uh, you know,digging the beatles and

(42:30):
obviously um, you know the rockand roll, rock and roll right,
songs of the day and everything,and we would do that.
And so I had this mishmash and Iremember my parents had like a
lot of 78 records.
I remember there was one thingcalled the Dill Pickle Rag.

(42:51):
It was like stride piano Infact.
Well, I can't't show you, butI've got the record on my wall
here.
Awesome, oh, it is first thing,and you know.
So I did that.
Uh, all right, so long, about67.
Uh, you know, leona is out inthe tules, yeah.
And so I went to the library andthe librarian had this new

(43:12):
magazine called guitar player.
Yes, yes, I thought what thehell?
So I go in there and, just likeyou, I can't get enough of it.
I'm learning all these names.
Who's Joe Pass, right?
Who's all this stuff you knowand everything, and I just
couldn't get enough.
So you know that northeasternWisconsin is homogeneously white

(43:37):
, right?
If you go out to the bars,you're going to hear country
music, you're going to hear BuckOwens and you know all that and
everything which is cool.
I got into that and everything.
But I don't know how I got.
I think I found something atschool, a James Brown record.
Aha, something at school, aJames Brown record in like 1968.

(43:59):
And I just came apart I saidthat, is it that just the funk
thing, you know?
And I just, and so you know,and my friends would go, well,
you're listening to N music,right.
And I said damn right, I am man, check this out.

(44:20):
That's how I learned the E9chord right.

Speaker 1 (44:24):
So now, where were you going to school at that time
?

Speaker 2 (44:26):
I was in high school.

Speaker 1 (44:28):
Oh, you were in high school, okay.

Speaker 2 (44:28):
Yeah, so okay, just a quick thing.
So 1967, I got into my firstrock band, okay, and I was.
I was a nerd but I knew chordsand I could take stuff off
record so I could teach thewhole band.
So they had to put up with MrNerd and my mother.

(44:49):
God bless her heart.
She was a public school teacherfor many years and she just had
this witchy talent of knowingwhat people need different
students I've I saw throughouther career.
So we're in rhinelander, lincolnmusic center.
There we go, the home of thehodags, and this guy who, uh,

(45:09):
owns lincoln music center lookslike don wilson of the ventures,
you know, the rhythm guitarplayer, hair and everything.
So they said, well, we're goingto just drop you off here.
We had to go shopping.
So they came back in.
So I didn't know and I was inthere, I was looking at that and
I must've been staring at this67 ivory Telecaster with a maple

(45:33):
neck looking at it like this.
I didn't know.
My mother came in.
She walked in, tapped me on theshoulder, says is that the one
you want?
I was shell shocked.
I said yeah, yeah.
She said okay.

(45:54):
She went over and said take itoff here, put it in the black
case with the orange on theinside.
Oh yeah, everything.
274, 73 with tax.
I know if I'd have kept thatguitar.
I was looking the other day.
It's like, uh, I don't know,four grand now or something, but

(46:14):
I'd be more than that 67.
Yeah, probably It'd be about 10.
Well, it was.
It was one of the smugglers.
Oh, okay, yeah, you know, Ididn't know that till later
anyway, so okay, I'll shortenthe story 67.
So during the school year I'mplaying in a rock band,
poverty's children, yes, and wewe had, uh, we had a, we had a

(46:38):
Chrysler station wagon, I didn't, but we were using that and
everything, and every once in awhile, you know, we'd have to
tighten the lugs on the wheelsand the lug would break off, you
know, but anyway, so theycalled it the Jesus Chrysler.
Know, but anyway, so theycalled it the jesus chrysler.

Speaker 1 (47:00):
Right, so that was that was, that was our bandwagon
, uh.

Speaker 2 (47:02):
And so we would play.
That's a great name for a band,yeah, I know, right, probably
get sued, but that's all right,uh.
So anyway, rock band wouldbreak up in the summertime,
right?
So what am I going to do?
Well, because I could playchords and I could read chord
changes.
Some of the older musiciansthat played the resorts around
northern Wisconsin.
They said, all right, we'lltake this young shit on.

(47:25):
And so I played rhythm guitar,you know, and we'd do Don Ho,
tiny Bubbles, folsom, prisonBlues, all this.
But I got to go to all theseresorts, man, you know the Eagle
Waters Resort and over to StGermain, and you know all these
things.
So during the year I was rockand roll, during the summer I

(47:46):
was playing.

Speaker 1 (47:47):
Whatever you had to play.

Speaker 2 (47:49):
Yeah, and old standards, you know, I remember
this one tenor player, toughlove, I mean, he dug me, but he
would never let me know that,you know.
And he'd say what do you mean?
You don't know that tune.
He says learn those changes,right, you know.
For next time, right, you know,or you ain't crap unless you
can play Ted Atkins, right?
Yeah, you know.
And stuff like that.

(48:09):
So, all right, did that.
Then I went to Michigan Tech intech.
Uh, it was a forestry degree.
Oh, I didn't know that you werea forestry degree.
Yeah, that's see, I'm a sciencenerd too.
So, um, anyway, so I, I didthat.
Uh, then I, halfway through myjunior year, I was ready to
skate to music school because Iwas having too much fun.

(48:31):
And but my parents, just, youknow, said when I went to them,
I'm going like kind of shaking,uh, you know, said uh-uh.
When I went to them, I'm goinglike kind of shaken, I'd really
like to go to music school.
And they, you know, and soanyway, we worked it out.
They said, no, you're going tofinish your degree.
Then, if you want to go tomusic school, we can't pay for

(48:52):
the whole thing or anything, butwe'll help you as much as we
can.

Speaker 1 (48:55):
So I said okay.

Speaker 2 (48:57):
So then I went to Northern Michigan, and what was
really cool about that?
I got through there in two anda half years.
All I had to take was music.
Nothing else I took one MaddenModern World course.
I mean seven o'clock.
Go to the music building 1030,.
Come home at night I mean seveno'clock.
Go to the music building 1030,.
Come home at night.
Practice during the day, day in, day out.

(49:18):
Plus I was playing three days aweek, three nights a week.
So I did that.
All right, get out of schoolthere, Get married.
My wife had a gravy gig down incentral Wisconsin, so I talked
down in central Wisconsin thereand yeah, and so meantime, when

(49:39):
I was going down there I startedmaking, I realized, oh,
stephen's point, it's two hoursfrom Eau Claire, two hours from
Madison, two hours from GreenBay.
So I started contacting peoplearound there.
And so while I was in centralWisconsin I worked with Love of
Lives over at the Carlton Okay,in the Carlton room in Green Bay

(50:01):
, did a lot of work there andLovell liked it because I could
read.
Plus, oh, here's a guitarplayer who can read and play and
play rock and roll, so we'regoing to have him.
So I did that, played with alot of people and everything.
But geez, I tell, tell you,doing some of those shows,

(50:23):
driving back I'd get, I'd gethome at like two in the morning,
you know, and then you know,got to go to work.
Uh, you know, teaching publicschool kiddies at eight in the
morning.
Oh, that's a young, young manthing you worked.

Speaker 1 (50:38):
We worked off some time at Purgatory.

Speaker 2 (50:41):
I did, I did man.
So over the years I just keptdoing things.
The solo guitar I would like tosay this If I were back

(51:08):
teaching at Stevens Point rightnow, I would make it mandatory
for the guitar players to learn,start to learn some solo guitar
repertoire.
Yeah, whatever, whatever, youknow.
I mean, if it's a stevie wondertune, fine.
If it's amazing grace, fine,whatever.
Because that's the mostemployable thing out there.
And I'll tell you why.
Well, you already know this.
But I discovered, like about 12years ago, house parties here's

(51:28):
the scam with the house party 90minutes, you go there, 20
minutes, you schmooze the people, fine, play about a 40, 45
minute set that you know intheir living room, and these are
all rich people, and you knowrich people like to have hire,
you know, and things like that.
And then afterwards you sellyour CDs and merchandise,

(51:52):
absolutely.
Then you pack it up.
Okay, that happened to be atfour o'clock in the afternoon,
so then you go to the next richperson house at seven, right, do
the same thing, yeah, and youcan do it on nights that you're
not working.

Speaker 1 (52:08):
Exactly.

Speaker 2 (52:09):
You can do it a Tuesday night, you can do it a
Wednesday all these throwawaynights and you can do it and
people go oh, isn't this nice.
He can play time in a bottle,but in a way different from the
record, Right?
Yeah, totally.

Speaker 1 (52:28):
So, okay, I had kind of a strange epiphany in that
regard when it was.
You know, when I was doing alot of clinics, I would always
do them with tracks, you knowwhat I mean.
I would have stuff from myrecords where I would take the
main guitar part off and and itjust was kind of soul sucking.
You know we refer to it asguitar-yokey, you know what I

(52:49):
mean.
And plus, the balance was neverright.
You know what I mean.
You'd get into a place and itjust sounded it just was not
satisfying.
And then I remember I saw, um,I mean, I was familiar with
Tommy Emanuel at that point.
But that was just like that waslike otherworldly, you know, yes
, yes.
And then I saw Doyle Dykes,who's also otherworldly, but
when I saw him playing, heopened up with this, just like a

(53:12):
shuffle, you know, yeah.
And he played chords, melody,bass, all at the same time, yeah
, and then was able to do likean improvised thing while
keeping the the comping going.
I thought, damn, he's sittinghere by himself destroying, and
how awesome is that?
So then I just made it mymission, uh, to learn how to be

(53:35):
a self-accompanying musician.
And, to your point, it was uh,you know, ever since then.
That's what made all the, youknow.
and now when I do clinics, Idon't play with tracks at all, I
just I just play, you know yeah, yeah, and if I needed to, I
could spend the rest of my lifedoing solo gigs and plus it's
just fun.
It's fun to be able to sit byyourself and make music yeah,

(53:58):
yeah.

Speaker 2 (53:58):
And people.
He goes and said why don't youuse a looper?

Speaker 1 (54:02):
I go, that's soul sucking also you know you hit
that thing at the wrong time.

Speaker 2 (54:06):
The balance is weird, oh jesus yeah yeah, and when
you're playing solo you can takeoff in any direction you want,
exactly you know.
You decide oh, I'm going to dothis tune, you know, or or uh,
that tune.
So to your other question, justquick about.
So I heard Joe pass early onand I just went.

(54:27):
Are you kidding me?
But I think probably the one myentry level was Grant, green
and Kenny.

Speaker 1 (54:38):
Burrell.

Speaker 2 (54:40):
I think, because I could do those things.

Speaker 1 (54:43):
Yeah, they were easier to understand.

Speaker 2 (54:45):
Yeah and Joe, I just didn't have the chops to do,
although I can sing practicallyevery solo off for Django you
know yeah.
And so I like that, I likedLenny, and probably for the last
I don't know, maybe 10 yearsI'm real in.
Well, obviously, tommy emmanuel, right, but uh, martin taylor,

(55:09):
oh yeah, he's great.
Yeah, yeah, because martin hasa real accessible way of dealing
with melody and baseline andand another voice.
He doesn't even call it chordmelody, Right, he says and he
talks.
George Benson said this too.
So if you're playing solo, hesaid you have to have motion.

(55:30):
You can't just go chord, chord,chord.
There has to be something inthere that's giving you so chord
ba-ba-do-do, chord, da-da-do-do.
Well, you know that, yeah, andso the thing with Martin.
It really opened up a lot ofstuff for me.
So now I'm taking thosetechniques I learned and it

(55:55):
would take me another threelifetimes to get what's in my
head to come out here, but I'mhaving a hoot.

Speaker 1 (56:02):
But that never ends.
That's the same for one and all.
Yes, yes, the quest it neverends, yeah for sure.
So after you got done withMichigan Tech, you were down in
central Wisconsin.
You were taking some credits atStevens Point and that's what
led to this template, if youwill, for a program that led to

(56:23):
the Stevens Point.

Speaker 2 (56:24):
Right right, I got done with my master's degree and
there were no gigs and Icouldn't get back into the
public school system.
So a music store in WisconsinRapids, speltz Music, which is
no longer hiring me.

Speaker 1 (56:41):
I still have my Speltz Music folders.

Speaker 2 (56:45):
There you go, dude, you know, and they hired me as
educational consultant, whichmeans that the first job you
have is cleaning out thewarehouse.
You know, all the dusty shit.
And I found, I don't know.
You probably remember this.
I found this old 1929 Brubankbook.
The last page in it is supposedto be inspirational, so it

(57:10):
shows this little boy inknickers and this little girl
and they're hand in hand.
They're walking this path butthere's chasms all around and
they, you know, don't get offinto the forest of bad habits.
Yes, and this and that Rightnext to the Olympic temple you

(57:35):
fall off into the swamp of jazz,the swamp of Jazz, the Swamp of
Jazz.
So the first fake book we had Iput together at Stephen's Point
was the Swamp of Jazz fake book.
Oh, it's fantastic, anyway.
So I had to do that for twoyears, but in the meantime I'm
taking night courses for mygraduate degree.

(57:57):
And then, when I got done withthe degree, they decided well,
let's just try him as an ad hocfaculty member running a jazz
band to kind of see if maybethis would work.
And so I had the jazz band forone year in 82.

(58:18):
And then I officially wasappointed in 83 and was there
until 91.
So that's my life story.

Speaker 1 (58:27):
And so why, when you ended with Stevens Point, you
ended up going back to MichiganTech, right?
And so what was, what was thattransition like, and what was
you?
Were head of the jazz programthere, or was it a different
kind of uh?

Speaker 2 (58:40):
no, it was, uh, it was another.
It was like a lateral move.
And all my colleagues atsteven's point said what the
hell are you leaving a programthat you've built in a music
school to go to basically anengineering school that just had
a fine arts program?
No, no, music degree.
And I said, well, I'm agraduate of there.

(59:01):
I know that these kids aresuper smart.
I mean, you know I couldn't getinto tech now, you know.
I mean, you know, with my SATsand everything and so anyway.
And then, if you know aboutsuper smart kids, a lot of them
sat first chair in band.
They were probably in forensics, they were probably in rock and

(59:23):
roll bands, like yourself, youknow, and things like that Super
talented.
So I knew that and so I knewthat going there I would be
working with talented kids.
Plus, I wouldn't have to put upwith academia.

Speaker 1 (59:38):
Right, because that's a whole other thing.

Speaker 2 (59:41):
I never had a budget at UWSP.
I had to go to the studentgovernment, stand in a docket
with a space and then a line ofkids who didn't know me from
Adam and say, and who are you?
And I'd say you know.

(01:00:02):
Director Jess says we need thismuch money to go on tour.
They say every damn year I hadto go to those little shits.
And they're just sitting theregoing like, yeah, yeah, you, old
fart.
I just, I just had that up tohere.
So tech said, okay, it's goingto be meager, but you've got a

(01:00:24):
budget, you spend it the way youwant.
I said I got smart kids, I gota budget.
Don Kiernan had 21 yearsbuilding this program.
I walked in kind of put mystamp on it and everything.
For me it was a no-brainer,Absolutely no-brainer,
Absolutely no-brainer.
And now the guy up here, ayoung, just a bitchin' trumpet

(01:00:50):
player, Adam Meckler.
He plays with Dave Coz.
Okay, yeah, Dave Coz, yeah, andhe played with the Horned Dogs
from Prince.
He was on a Stevie Wonder album, Anyway.
So Adam's the guy now and wegot him here and every once in a
while, if he has to be out oftown, he says, hey, you want to
come in off the bench.
Make sure your shoes are tied.

Speaker 1 (01:01:14):
Well, plus, the UP is just a beautiful place.

Speaker 2 (01:01:17):
Yeah, we got to talk, maybe off camera, but you were
talking about maybe coming upthis way.
I'd love to do it.
I got a whole circuit for youand some people to talk to.

Speaker 1 (01:01:30):
Awesome, good, I'd love it.
Yeah, yeah, my son's girlfriendhas family up in Munising now.

Speaker 2 (01:01:37):
Oh, beautiful.

Speaker 1 (01:01:38):
And and and're buddies with Mark Farner.
Oh yeah, Do you ever run intoMark Farner up?

Speaker 2 (01:01:44):
there, I ran into him once.
You know, talk about thewilderness up here.
You know the piano player forLittle Feet, billy Payne.

Speaker 1 (01:01:53):
Yeah, Billy.

Speaker 2 (01:01:54):
Payne yeah, yeah, man , he's got a place up here about
eight miles from me.
Man, you're kidding me.
No, no, I'm buddies with Billy.
Billy's up here about eightmiles from me, man You're
kidding me?

Speaker 1 (01:02:00):
No, no, my buddy's a Billy and I didn't even know
that.

Speaker 2 (01:02:03):
Yeah, he comes up here and you know everybody,
it's like Billy's my neighbor,you know it's like he's just one
of the guys, man, and he's sucha nice cat.
Yeah, he's a good dude, he is.

Speaker 1 (01:02:23):
Yeah, and every once in a while he'll just step out,
show up at a gig and say youknow, can I play piano?
Yes, you can, yes, you can.
Let's talk a little bit aboutsome of the old compatriots.
So you mentioned Eddie Russ.
I remember playing some of histunes and they were always cool.
Yes, yes.

Speaker 2 (01:02:39):
And so is he around anymore.
Eddie passed away.
He was only 61 years old, ohJesus, he was up for a liver
transplant.
Ok, do you remember?

Speaker 1 (01:02:54):
you remember the baseball player.

Speaker 2 (01:02:55):
Mickey Maddow.
Yeah yeah, mickey Maddow had tohave a liver transplant.
He could get it right F and now.
Right, of course had to have aliver transplant.
He could get it right effingnow Right, of course and he had
to wait.
I had Ed up, you know.
Basically he uh uh had to.
You know, he had to be onmedication and everything played
his ass off up here, couldbarely get off the stage, uh,

(01:03:18):
and then he passed away not toolong ago or too long after that.
So what I did for sabbaticalone year, I found all of Eddie's
tunes.

Speaker 1 (01:03:28):
Right La Serena was one of them.

Speaker 2 (01:03:30):
Right Yep and I put together a total Ed Rush fake
book, and so I've got the C,B-flat, E-flat and bass clef
version.
If you want it, I'll send youthe PDFs.

Speaker 1 (01:03:41):
Oh, I'd love it.
Yeah, because those are greattunes.
Yeah, man Speaking of tunesthat were cool.
That were just cool changes,but not like brain surgery
changes some of them.
They were just nice tunes, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:03:54):
Yeah, and you know Ed was for a while.
Oscar Peterson had a musicschool in Toronto and Ed was one
of his instructors.
So, ed, every gig we played, Iplayed with Eddie for 10 years
and that's where my real jazztraining came.

(01:04:15):
Got it?
It was called the University ofEd Russ Uh-huh, and every night
I mean playing on a stage withthat guy and these players, way
better than myself, just kickedyour ass all the time.
But to listen to what he did,and every night he would play a
solo piece to die for, we wouldbe sitting in the wings all of

(01:04:40):
us.
Rick Leppinen, the bass playerhe's the bass player with Pearl
Django now.
Oh cool, and we would just sitthere going Wow yeah.
It was just fantastic, so yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:04:55):
Then there was another one, frank.
Mantooth was another one, frank.

Speaker 2 (01:04:57):
Mantooth, yeah, the tooth, the tooth man, brilliant,
brilliant guy.
Uh, few people knew that toothhad uh like about 174 iq.
Oh no, kidding, oh yeah, but henever let anybody know it and
he had perfect pitch and he wasjust a demon.
And uh, yeah, and he, yeah, andhe, uh, he liked his uh, herbal

(01:05:22):
combustibles.
So I would.
When I, when I had uh uh, Icommissioned him, he would work
on his commission in his uh inthe morning and he had a new son
at that time.
Well, he called the rooster.
He said I had to work.
I had to work in the morningbefore the rooster's up.
I had to work in the morningbefore the rooster's up.

(01:05:43):
So he'd be sitting there andevery once I'd be talking with
him and, you know, I'd hear kindof like you know, but an
incredible musician, but one ofthe musicians who actually could
intimidate him, and notpurposely was Eddie.

(01:06:04):
He just came up, he wouldlisten to Eddie and just shake
his head.
He said, oh my God, I don'twant to follow that guy.
Bless him.
So yeah, Tooth.

Speaker 1 (01:06:14):
And then, of course, we got the mighty Steve Zahn,
who I saw almost past summer.

Speaker 2 (01:06:18):
He's looking good, he is, he is, you know and he's
doing so much great work forShell Lake.
Shell Lake is they've got abuilding plan and he's raising
money for it and instead of youknow having to be, you remember
the digs there, man, don't you.
Yes, oh man, oh being in thosedormitories.

(01:06:42):
No air conditioning.

Speaker 1 (01:06:44):
Oh, I remember.

Speaker 2 (01:06:45):
Hotter than hell.
Yeah, well, they're going toget a new program.
Nice, I think so.
Steve's great man, he's my soulbrother.

Speaker 1 (01:06:56):
He's a good man, doggone it.
Yeah, crazy.
Well, listen, it's been sogreat catching up.
We haven't talked in so long.
We conversed a little bitonline here and there.
But yeah, I'd love to come upthere and do a little respite
and play up there and scald somebrains, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:07:14):
Brains need scalding.
They do, they do, they do.
And you know, the reason peoplelove live music up here is
because all the 60s hippies andeverything wanted to go north
where the air was clear and alot of those people ended up
here and now they got childrenand grandchildren and they all I
mean live music is, you know,it's killing man.

(01:07:37):
That's awesome.
They love it.
Yeah, okay, I love it, that'smy PR?

Speaker 1 (01:07:40):
Yeah, it's all great seeing you.
You too, man.
That's awesome, I love it.
Yeah, okay, that's my PR.
Yeah, it's all great seeing you.
You too, brother, I hope to seeyou in the flesh soon, say
hello to your lovely wife for me.

Speaker 2 (01:07:49):
Yeah, you too, and take care of your son and
talented daughter and everything.

Speaker 1 (01:07:54):
Yes, I shall do it.
All right, my friend, have agood one, take care man.
Bye-bye, take it easy, bye-bye.
Well, thanks for tuning in.
Ladies and gentlemen, toanother episode of Chewing the
Gristle.
We certainly do appreciate youstopping by.
Make sure you tell your friendsall about us.
I think they might enjoythemselves.

(01:08:15):
So thanks again for tuning inand we'll see you next time.