May 22, 2024 • 50 mins
2024 1031 Juliann and Corinne join Rusty for a wonderful conversation about the Al-Anon Program and the impact it can have on relationships.
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(00:00):
Hi, good morning everyone. My name is Rusty and I'm an alcoholic.
(00:05):
And I'm Tim and I'm an alcoholic and this is Children of Chaos.
Today we are talking about Al-Anon, which is another 12-step program in the 12-step, what would you say, the 12-step what?
Recovery World.
Well, it is, yeah, it is in the recovery world, but for me too it's one of the most, well they're all important.
(00:31):
I was going to say most important, but they're all important for different individuals.
And Julianne just said...
In the tradition of the 12-step program.
In the tradition, that's the word, in the traditions of the 12-steps.
Well, and I've also heard someone say, alcoholics anonymous helped me get sober and Al-Anon taught me about relationships.
(00:55):
Yeah, and that's what I have said for years, that AA got me sober and Al-Anon helped me have the relationship today that I have.
Today we've got two wonderful people that are going to sit in today and are our guests today.
The first is Corinne, who I have known, what, 18, 20 years, who is in her own long-term recovery.
(01:21):
And Julianne, who I have known about 25 years, who is my darling wife and has been for the last 24 years.
So we've decided this morning we're just going to kind of free-flow it and let everybody just kind of talk about what they want to talk about.
About, in Al-Anon.
(01:42):
And my story is, I'm a recovering alcoholic also.
I'm also an ACOA, adult child of alcoholics.
And I am Al-Anon and have been a member of Al-Anon for, gosh, since I was about 10 years sober.
And so that's been about 30 years.
(02:03):
And as I said in the beginning, you know, AA got me sober.
And for 10 years that's what I focused on.
But then I was in a relationship that I just absolutely got my ass kicked in.
And it drove me to Al-Anon.
(02:25):
And I still remember that the morning that I was coming into Al-Anon and everybody would kind of come in together and then they would split off.
People would go to the right where the Al-Anon meeting was and they keep going straight ahead to the AA meeting.
And I veered off to go to Al-Anon and all my buddies were just laughing at me.
(02:46):
But now all those guys happen to be at Al-Anon also.
So it's kind of ironic.
Anyway, I thought we'd start out with just give you a little bit of background about each one of them.
And so Corinne, if you wouldn't mind, could you start off for us and maybe give your story a part?
All right. I'm Corinne Al-Anon.
(03:09):
I got to the Rooms of Recovery about 40 years ago, actually.
And that was because I was going to help my husband at the time who had had a relapse.
And I was just there to be of support.
I didn't have any inkling that it was about me.
The one good thing that came out of that was there was a lady that walked up to me and gave me a book.
(03:34):
She gave me the One Day at a Time book, which was really all we had back then, 40 years ago, I think.
And so I kept it, interestingly enough.
And then after a period of time when my husband decided he didn't need to be in there anymore,
that he just could sponsor himself, I decided I didn't need to be there either.
So I left.
And seven years later, after a particularly bad night, I crawled back into the rooms of Al-Anon
(04:00):
after reading the book that she had given me and after two people in my life who I really respected both
within two weeks of each other recommending to me that I go to Al-Anon with no request on my part.
So, I mean, that was my little god deal that happened to get me back to the rooms.
(04:21):
And they both were going to the same meeting that they recommended that they said was just fabulous.
So I went.
And the thing that changed for me was, well, there were two things.
One, I was absolutely desperate by then.
And number two, that meeting was so inviting and there was so much humor and so much honesty and openness in there
(04:43):
that it was so attractive that I just couldn't leave.
I made time for it because every time I went in there, I heard something I needed to hear.
I was able to see myself from a different place because it was coming out of the mouth of somebody else.
So that was 33 years ago and I haven't found it necessary to leave because I still need the support,
(05:06):
the camaraderie, the wisdom, the gut-level honesty that I had none of when I got here.
Julianne, how about yourself?
Well, that's a good question, Rusty.
I will say this.
My first Al-Anon meeting was in Minneapolis, Minnesota.
(05:27):
And I had a friend, a good friend that I was going to school at the University of Minnesota for my Masters in.
And I had a friend who was going to these meetings.
And then she had a pretty traumatic childhood.
Her father had been a drinker and he ended up hanging himself.
He killed himself.
And she's the one who found him as a little girl.
(05:49):
So she had been through a lot of therapy and so forth.
And she ended up finding a lot of help in Al-Anon.
Now, when we went, I really didn't know why I was going.
I just thought, you know, it was nice.
I'll go with her and accompany her.
And then I would read in the literature that it's for people, if you know somebody who's an alcoholic or in your, you know,
(06:12):
if you just have to know somebody that's into drug addiction or alcoholism, to go to it.
And when I went, you know, it was just a good feeling.
I mean, it was, this is Minneapolis, so there's a lot of recovery in Minnesota.
And so this, oh gosh, this was, I don't know, like maybe 28 years ago, something like that.
(06:33):
And people were just, I don't know, there's a good feeling there.
That's all I got out of it.
And, you know, of course, there were so many people, they broke into little groups.
And one of the little groups I went to, you know, like four or five of us talking, and we were going around the circle.
And this one woman was talking about her life and, you know, talking about,
(06:54):
well, she's staying with her husband, who's, is an alcoholic.
And, but she's really just staying because she likes the house.
And she, you know, and she, she likes, you know, being able to do what she wants to do.
And she's going on.
And of course, I'm like, I couldn't believe it that she would be saying these things.
But all I knew is she was talking about her life.
(07:15):
So when it came to my turn, I just gave her my resume, you know, it's like, oh, well, I've done this and I've done that.
And I was totally clueless as to why I'm here.
And then I never went again for many, many years.
And by that time, I was living in California and I had a boyfriend who I thought, you know, was a pretty organized person.
He worked pretty hard during the day.
(07:37):
But one day I noticed we had two trash cans in our apartment and one of them was always full.
And that was the one with the wine bottles.
And why I never saw it, you know, for two years, I don't know.
I just, but one day it just struck me.
This is pretty weird, you know, what's happening here.
And so I started trying to find Al-Anon.
(07:58):
I remembered having been to that one meeting and what, you know, I thought, now that's going to help me because I didn't know very many people in California.
I hadn't lived there very long.
And I couldn't find anyone. I couldn't find the meetings, you know.
I would call up and couldn't get called back.
And I'd go drive around and look for the place.
And I mean, for some it was a very strange thing.
(08:19):
But in the meantime, all of a sudden, my mom was sick and I went back to Oklahoma.
And the nurse that was the hospice nurse for my mom was somebody I knew in high school.
And I went to a very small high school.
So it was great to see her again.
And she was going to Al-Anon.
So right away we clicked.
(08:41):
And she told me where all the meetings are.
And I ended up going to AA speaker meetings first.
And because that was near my house.
And then once again, you know, I saw somebody, the first speaker I heard was somebody from my high school, from, you know, the boys school down the street from the girls school that I went to.
And again, I was like, oh, my God, this person is telling everything.
(09:03):
He's talking about his parents, his family.
Oh, my Lord.
And has he no shame?
This is what I thought.
And so that's what I had, you know, little by little it dawned on me what this program was about.
You know, it really was about getting over the messages that I had received in my childhood, the rules that were not functioning anymore for me.
(09:25):
That it was like.
And the reason that thing stuck out for me that he was talking.
And then the woman in the group, you know, Minnesota was because, you know, in my house, one of the rules was that I was growing up, you know, we don't talk about problems.
You know, we just, you know, everybody puts on a face.
Maybe not a happy face, but, you know, we just go about life and let it slide under the carpet.
(09:49):
And there were a lot of problems that should have been talked about.
So I was drawn, you know, to Alan on because of the openness and the honesty.
And I could hear other people's stories, and that made me more courageous about telling my story, you know, with it, with the folks in Alan on.
So that's how I got there.
(10:10):
That's that's the first thing, Rusty.
When you were saying, has he no shame?
That's right.
It just so happens I've been reading B'Nai Brown and Darren Greatley again.
And in in the book, she talks about the only way that really that we can get rid of shame.
And of course, we all know this because we've done this, is that you have to become vulnerable.
(10:35):
And the 12 steps of Alan on does that.
Well, the 12 steps, any any of the 12 steps do that for you by taking you through the 12 steps.
You start out with, you know, the the four step and then the fifth step where you tell another human being.
So, yes, he has no shame, probably, because that's what we do get rid of is a lot of the shame by just working the steps.
(11:06):
I've also been reading some in my favorite Alan on book, which is how Alan on works for families and friends of alcoholics.
The chapter I love the most is on communication, because that's the heart of any successful relationship that we're going to have is being able to communicate between you and anyone really that you communicate with, but especially with your significant other.
(11:36):
I just want to read this first little part of the chapter on communication and it says once we are able to take care of ourselves, we have much more to bring to our relationships with others.
The way we relate to others depends in large part upon the way we communicate.
So it is useful when examining our relationships to consider that what we say and how we say it.
(12:04):
For instance, do we say what we mean and mean what we say?
I've heard Korean say that phrase many times and don't say it mean.
Do we state our needs and desires or set back and wait for others to read our minds?
Do we agree to do things that we really don't want to do?
Saying yes when we may know.
(12:27):
Do we express our feelings and communicate our appreciation for those in our lives?
Or do we keep silent or deny what we feel out of fear or habit?
That's probably one of the most important things that I have learned in A.A. and especially Al-Anon to communicate.
(12:48):
I mentioned earlier that Julianne and I have been married for 24 years and we would not have that.
I don't think we would have the marriage that we have unless we had learned to communicate
and to set boundaries.
One of the things that Julianne is really, really good with me about is setting boundaries because with my alcoholic personality.
(13:13):
That's a nice way to say it, Rusty.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Is that she has learned and through her sponsorship and her sponsor is here today.
Right there.
Corrine.
Yeah, Corrine.
The way this is that she has learned how to set boundaries and not only set a boundary but hold that boundary.
(13:36):
And I can be pretty.
You're pretty pushy.
Yeah, pushy.
On certain things.
Demanding.
Yeah, you're a type A personality.
Yeah, I'm a type.
Yeah.
Assertive.
Very assertive.
Very assertive.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Well, you happen, by the way, you happen to be married to a guy that's kind of that way yourself, right?
(13:58):
Oh, yes.
Would you want to share some of, you know, you setting boundaries and saying what you mean and say it how?
Don't say it mean.
Yeah, don't say it mean.
Well, my husband had had experience with women who had not really had a lot of Al-Anon training at all in the past.
(14:22):
And he was used to confrontation and argument and demands and all kinds of things.
And I had, by the time I moved here when we got married, I had 15 years in recovery.
And I had learned how to say things differently to people, not to try to manipulate an outcome or get a specific outcome,
(14:45):
but just to be straightforward and honest without making demands.
I learned to make requests instead of demands.
And the first time we ever had a situation where I asked him about something and he was kind of taken aback, I think.
And he said, well, if you demand that I do that, maybe I can do that.
(15:09):
And I said, no, I don't make demands.
And he said, well, yes, you do.
Everybody makes demands.
And I said, no, everybody doesn't.
I don't.
I can make a request.
And if you aren't willing to honor that request, then I get to decide what I want to do from that point forward.
It's not about me trying to get my way.
(15:31):
It's about asking for what I need or want.
And then with whatever response I get, making a different decision going forward about what I wanted.
And that was the first time that I had encountered somebody who really hadn't had experience with that.
And the funny thing was that we got to a morning meeting the next day and he read the paragraph about the difference between a request and a demand is obvious to anyone.
(16:00):
And I can remember him saying, well, not necessarily.
But they taught me in Elanon how to communicate differently, how to ask for what I need and how to say what I'm willing.
Well, back to boundaries.
I didn't have any when I got here.
Physical abuse was about an infidelity.
(16:21):
We're about the only boundaries that I had.
And I had to learn what my boundaries were, what I was able to do and not able to do,
what I was willing to do and not willing to do and what I was willing to allow and not willing to allow.
And I had to learn what those things were for me before I could ever set a boundary.
(16:42):
The other thing I had to do was I had to get strong enough in recovery to be able to set the boundary.
And it had to have a consequence attached to it.
If it doesn't have a consequence, it's a rule.
And rules are made to be broken and will be.
If you're living with anyone with any alcoholic background, you can expect them to be chopped right in two.
(17:03):
But I had to learn how to have a consequence and be able to enforce it.
And it took me several years in Elanon to get strong enough to do that against really hard things, little things I could do.
But the big ones, you know, came more slowly.
And the first time my ex-husband had a fit, we'll just say that in a nice way, one night,
(17:25):
I knew not to respond because all that was going to do was start a back and forth.
And there was no good outcome coming there.
I went to bed early, got up the next morning and said, say, I need to just let you know something.
And he said, what's that?
I said, well, I just need to let you know if anything like last night occurs again, I'm going to have to get up and leave.
(17:47):
And I'm not sure when I'll be back.
I might just go to the store. I might drive around.
I might go see friends.
I might come back the next day.
I might not come back.
I don't know how I would react to that.
But I do know that if it happens again, I will get up and leave.
And the other thing I said was I have too much respect for myself today to allow anyone to speak to me like that without a consequence.
(18:11):
And that was life changing.
I expected the world to blow up.
Nothing happened.
Nothing happened.
Not only that.
No response by him?
No response.
Uh-huh.
It never happened again.
Because there was something about the quiet certainty, I think, of my voice that he could tell that I genuinely meant it, that I wasn't mad.
(18:32):
I wasn't upset.
I was just clear on what I was willing to do and not willing to do and not willing to allow as well.
How long does that take to get to there, though?
It took me several years.
Yeah, it does, doesn't it?
It took me about—it was about three years, I think, before I had enough recovery muscles to be able to—
Well, the other thing is I had to really believe it and mean it.
(18:55):
It wasn't that I was trying to change somebody's behavior.
It was that internally I couldn't do that anymore.
And I think that's what you have to get to.
Internally, am I able to do this anymore?
Or without that certainty and that strength inside and knowing that that is exactly how it is for you, it's hard to set a boundary.
Would you say that's kind of like a bottoming out for somebody in Lebanon?
(19:20):
Yes.
The way the alcoholic has a bottom.
You finally just get pushed that far.
And we get several.
Yeah, I guess so.
Over our history, our recovery history, we get several because new things come up all the time.
And Julienne, with you, Corinne being your sponsor, I know that you took all this stuff in.
(19:43):
And how did it feel for you, especially with someone like my personality that is pretty demanding?
I know how it changed me when you really started setting those boundaries.
Well, I think I came to Al-Anon with very few boundaries.
I had some, but not a whole lot.
And that's because how I grew up.
(20:04):
I had an older sister who was schizophrenic.
And so when I was like in middle school and high school, it was just she and I.
I had two other sisters, but they were already out of the home and away at college.
And one of them got married.
So Rebecca and I were the only ones at home.
And she, being schizophrenic, she would have these outbursts periodically.
(20:27):
And you just didn't know when it was coming.
And she had voices that she heard.
And so her voices apparently didn't like me.
I was not included in the fam, you know, of their voices.
So she would become aggressive towards me in different ways.
(20:48):
And they were messy, you know, things that were just ridiculous, anything.
I don't know.
She threw a plate of food on my head one time.
I mean, you know, it was never threatening my life.
But it was definitely breaking the boundaries of self-respect and respect from her.
And so I learned that.
That became the normal thing for me by the time I graduated.
(21:12):
I mean, I knew I didn't like it, but it was instilled in me already that this is the normal thing.
You know, you have your boundaries broken.
Life is like that.
So later in life, as I go along, I had that.
That's kind of a rule I had in my head on how to act.
And so I didn't recognize boundaries with other people.
(21:34):
And also I wanted to be in control of situations because things were out of control at my house.
So that was another characteristic that I took with me as a young adult out into the world.
So it took me a lot of years to begin to see where that, the closed door of where that road takes you.
(21:56):
Thinking I could manipulate other people and, you know, I knew exactly what was right.
I knew what was right for you.
That was the feeling I had because I was in control of my life.
Well, in truth, underneath all that was low self-esteem.
And that's a lot of what brings people into Al-Anon.
And it's from what we call codependency.
(22:19):
And that low self-esteem, you know, it's developed from how we grow up in different homes.
And I've told you a little bit about mine.
But people, you know, you don't rely on yourself for validation when you have low self-esteem.
We look outside ourselves for that validation.
So it was really important that I got you to validate me in some way, whatever it was that I needed to do.
(22:50):
And that was, that's part of the merry-go-round of being a codependent before I got to Al-Anon.
So when I did get to Al-Anon, I had some tools in my belt just because I had lived some life.
You know, you live life a little bit. You're in a few relationships.
I had been married before I met you, Rusty.
And so I had some experience, but I didn't have the kind of tools that Al-Anon could give me
(23:15):
that helps me get over those messages that I incorporated into my life when I grew up, those really strong ones.
And by hearing how other people improve their life by just doing these simple steps, I mean, they're very simple.
I mean, I know somebody in Al-Anon, and she was always laughing, saying like, and that for me, too.
(23:37):
I would see the 12 steps, you know, and they're posted when you go to a meeting.
They're up there, you know, the 12 steps, da-da-da.
And I would think, but people can't remember this, you know, they can't.
I mean, 12 steps, people are in there like 40 years.
I've been in Al-Anon for 40 years, you know, or 25 years.
And you're like, what? You couldn't do the 12 steps in one?
(23:58):
And so I realized it's a very subtle program.
It takes a long time to build up your self-esteem and to be able to step back
and understand the respect we have for each other and the boundaries that we need and so many other rules that we have.
And I think, Corrine, you came from one of those kind of homes where you're not talking about problems.
(24:21):
Is that true?
Oh, heavens, yes.
Yeah, part of it was the times because appearances were huge in the town that I grew up in.
It was very socially stratified town and to be part of the haves and not the have-nots was critical to my mother particularly.
So appearances were everything. I mean, everything.
(24:44):
And so I learned that achievement was just the thing in my family.
I mean, you had to make great grades.
You had to do, you had to wear the perfect outfit.
You had to learn how to behave in a certain way so that you would be accepted.
There were just so many things around that.
And in one sense, it's like a lot of things.
(25:07):
It was good training.
It taught me that living in a house where people take care of things was important,
but it was important because of your own personal convenience and comfort, not so much for how other people perceive it.
But in my house, it was all about how other people perceived it.
I had an organdy bedspread and silk wallpaper in my room.
(25:31):
You couldn't sit on the bed.
I had a chaise lounge, a French chaise lounge that you could sit on.
And so that had to be ironed carefully.
And you couldn't hammer anything into the walls because it was silk wallpaper.
My friends loved to come to my house because my mother put on quite a show when we had company
and would have special things to eat and do, and the house would be absolutely perfect.
(25:56):
And I was like, yeah, but I want to go to their house because you can just be yourself, you know,
and you can just be so much more relaxed and comfortable and everything.
So that was the way I grew up.
I was aware of the difference.
You know, when you say that, of course, that makes me think about my growing up.
And my house was total chaos.
(26:19):
My parents were either, my stepdad really was either, he was drunk and it was just,
well, it was just children of chaos.
That's where I got the name for this.
And my mom was perfectionistic.
And she had some French provincial furniture in the front room, and we had plastic covers on it.
(26:43):
And when anybody would come over, well, the plastic would come up.
And, you know, we could all sit in the living room, and if no one was there,
the plastic was on and you did not, you didn't even sit on the plastic.
Besides, who the hell wants to sit on plastic, you know?
But that's, there's a lot of perfectionism in these, most everyone I know has suffered from some
(27:06):
perfectionism in some way, shape or form that are OCD, and the list goes on.
There's different levels of sobriety.
And I know that I'm looking at sobriety in a totally different way than I did even 15 years ago.
Can you tell us how you see Alan on today versus when you first came in?
(27:33):
Yes, I can.
My perception and perspective was so far off when I first got to Alan on.
And the sad thing was, I thought it was absolutely accurate that I had the vision.
I could see things as exactly as they were and act accordingly.
(27:55):
And then, because of my great altruistic personality, help you to do the same.
I didn't know that there was another better way of looking at things than the way I was looking at them.
And I would never have gotten there without hearing people in meetings be honest about what had happened,
(28:19):
what they had done as a result of that, and their Alan on training, and then how it turned out.
Because people who come to Alan on usually have a problem with projecting.
And they always project the absolute worst.
They never tell a good story.
In my experience, I've been a sponsor for 32 years, and I have yet to hear a good story doing step work
(28:42):
about how things are going to be or what the fears were.
They're always really difficult stories.
And the truth lies somewhere else usually.
And if I can talk to someone else like a sponsor, I can get their perspective on it.
And having that, having had sponsors for the last 32 years,
I have been given the gift of over that time getting lots of different perspectives on things.
(29:10):
I'll tell you one that really shifted me.
And this was by the time, by this time I had been in recovery for probably 10 years.
And two things happened.
One is my marriage was very unhappy.
No one was talking to me at home.
Nobody was coming over because he didn't want anybody over.
It was a wasteland in my house.
I lived in the garden most of the time.
(29:31):
So after two years of working with my sponsor to be the best partner a human being can be,
so that whatever happened with the marriage, at least I would have learned some new skills by that time.
And I did. I did.
She taught me a lot of wonderful things.
But then I left the marriage.
And my sponsor and I were going to a big conference up in Eureka Springs, actually.
(29:54):
And we were driving.
And this was my third marriage.
And I had so I had had three divorces.
And you talk about shame.
Oh, my gosh.
I couldn't tell anybody that.
So I said to her, I said, Carletta, I'm going to have to ask you a favor.
And she said, What's that?
I said, I'm going to have to get you to let me tell a different story about my life.
(30:19):
And she said, What are you talking about?
I said, Well, I can't tell anybody that I've been divorced three times.
They'll run like their hair's on fire.
And she said, That's what you think?
And I said, Well, of course it's what I think.
And that's what I saw.
I just saw this is going to be so bad.
And she said, Well, that's not what I think.
And I said, Well, what do you think?
(30:40):
And she said, Well, I was in an extremely difficult relationship.
And because of how bad it was, I have been afraid to get in another one long term.
And she said, You give me hope because you don't give up and you keep trying.
And she said, I admire your courage.
(31:01):
In a million years, I would have never seen that.
I would never seen myself that way.
So sponsors help you see yourself differently.
And people in the group help you see yourself differently because of the stories they tell about themselves.
So that's the biggest thing that's changed for me, I think, other than having the courage to set boundaries,
(31:22):
is my change in perspective and perception.
And that's why it's so important to have the people around you in recovery to talk to
because they can see things from a perspective that you can't.
Thank you.
Well, I'll just say this.
Some of the changes I've seen is like when I first started going to meetings here in Tulsa,
I went to this place called the Little Cabin.
(31:45):
And it was behind a church and it was a little cabin.
It was pretty neat.
And at first, I superficially looked and heard what people were saying their story was,
who they were and what they were about.
They were struggling with this or that.
And mostly it was women in that meeting.
It just so happened.
There were sprinkling of men.
(32:06):
And what has been great is that over the years, I've seen these people change.
Even if I wasn't able to see myself, I could see how their lives have changed.
And for the better, by doing all those things, by setting boundaries,
or just standing up for themselves and making choices that are healthy for them.
(32:30):
I think one of the things that a big message that many of us have and I had leaving home
from growing up in my home was, don't be selfish.
We can't be selfish.
And especially women get that message.
Young girls, it's like, just take care of things.
Just don't be selfish.
Cook dinner.
(32:51):
Do the dishes.
Clean up the house or whatever it is.
It doesn't matter.
So I would see that when people got into Al-Anon.
My first take on it was, as a meeting, I was kind of selfish.
They're talking about just thinking about me and not the other person.
(33:12):
I came in because I wanted to, maybe my relationship might get back together.
Maybe I could change him in some way.
So I began to realize it's about me and that it's not selfish to look at myself.
It's not selfish to want to have a vision of my life that's a positive one and not just
helter-skelter.
(33:34):
Do whatever happens, whatever door opens, okay, I'll be there for it.
I'm not going to be selfish.
I'm not going to be just thinking of myself.
And to get out of that mode of thinking and actually self-actualize myself.
I didn't say that right, but you know what I mean.
That is something that Al-Anon has brought into my life and I think so many others that
(33:59):
I've seen.
So that whatever these curveballs are that life brings me, and they come.
They come a lot.
My older sister did finally die.
My parents died.
I have a friend who's sick with cancer.
You've been sick, Rusty, for a little period of time here, and that was a curveball.
I'm able to be flexible enough to deal with that in my life.
(34:23):
And I'm not this rigid person that just falls when something happens.
I'm able to deal with life itself.
And that's what they talk about, you know, in all the 12-step programs is just dealing
with life on its own terms.
It's a great thing.
Life is really beautiful that way, and we can handle it.
(34:44):
But we have to have that inner resource.
And part of that is the spirituality, too, that I was able to develop more when I was
in the program.
And everybody has their own idea of what kind of God they believe in or no God at all, which
is fine.
But for me, yeah, I do, you know, I do have a God that I believe in, but because I've
(35:05):
seen miracles.
You know, I've seen it in the people in Al-Anon, and I see it so often in my own life.
You know, I think meeting you is just like a miracle, Rusty, because I wasn't looking
for anybody.
You know, I was pretty self-contained.
You know, there was just a click.
There was a click.
And it's all definitely been beneficial in my life.
(35:28):
Yeah, and let me say this about that, too.
If there was ever a couple that should be together, I think it's me and Julie.
I mean, I've learned because of the way of living and what her belief system has been
and through her sponsorship, I'm not saying that because Corinne's sitting there.
I mean that with all my heart, that we have formed a relationship where I have total respect
(35:55):
for Julie Ann.
It's just not respect.
It's a, I have a trust factor with her that I've never had in my life.
Now, maybe some of that's because I'm more trustworthy.
Some of that could be that.
But to have that relationship and to both of us be on the same level of our, in our
(36:16):
beliefs, although we do have, you know, our separate opinions on things.
But at the same time, we respect the other person and listen to what they have.
She helped me before you guys got here this morning.
I was kind of down because I hadn't felt good in a while.
And by the time we got through talking, I felt much better because I can, I knew that
(36:38):
what she was saying was the truth and I could accept that.
I could have accepted that in myself.
So there's so many benefits to living the Al-Anon way of life, but it's more than that.
It's the 12 steps.
I always say this.
It's about different levels of awareness that we have.
And I remember when we met, there were things that you didn't tell me about yourself.
(37:02):
Oh, yeah.
About your family.
Oh, I wouldn't tell you that I had schizophrenic sisters.
Yes.
I mean, there was so much shame in that.
And then I would get to watch you grow and see what you went through.
And it gave me more incentive to come clean about myself.
And even as you're talking, I'm thinking about, you know, one of the messages that I took from home
(37:25):
also was don't express your feelings.
You know, don't really be genuine with your feelings because we've got to make this whole thing work.
Somebody will use it against you.
Oh, yeah, somebody could use it against you.
Right.
So just to hear you talk about your feelings, see, it still makes me uncomfortable
because that's how deep those rules are.
And for me to express my feelings is really difficult.
(37:48):
But I've gotten so much better at it because I've had this practice of working these 12 steps
and having a sponsor that I can go to and my meetings.
You know, all of those things combined.
And the literature really has helped me.
Well, I wanted to say something about one of the most important things I had to learn in Al-Anon.
(38:13):
And for me, it was a real struggle because, well, we talk about alcoholics have to stop drinking or using or whatever.
And I think Al-Anon's have the same compulsion.
It's just not to drink or use.
It's to fix things or prevent the next disaster or help someone become their best self.
According to me.
(38:36):
So about, I would say, at least two thirds of what I've had to do in Al-Anon has been about what I've had to stop doing.
My whole life was about trying harder, learning more, applying that, you know, just doing more research.
But a whole lot of it has been about what I've had to stop doing.
I still have to work on that every day.
(39:00):
I have a family member who has mental health issues and I still want to make suggestions.
Let me tell you how nicely that's met.
It doesn't go well at all.
And it just reminds me, stop. Stop.
This is not your life.
This is their path.
They're going to have to figure it out.
(39:21):
They cannot hear what you say.
When someone's in the active disease, whether it's mental health or alcoholism or whatever it is,
one of the things I do is visualize in between me and that individual,
there's a little creature that's just dancing there in between us.
And whatever my little suggestion is that goes that way, they're like a goalie and they block it.
(39:44):
And then the next thing that I give their way, it's going to get blocked as well.
And I can't understand why that person doesn't hear me.
It's because the disease is in charge and it doesn't really matter whether it's mental health or alcoholism.
So I still have to stop and step back and let somebody figure out things on their own,
(40:05):
go down the path they go down, hit the consequences that they hit.
The hardest thing for someone, I think, early in Al-Anon is to stop blocking the consequences that somebody's going to get.
And I had to do that.
I had to learn to step out of the way and let them get the consequences of whatever it was.
I had to tell my children that if you get arrested for substance abuse,
(40:29):
I will not be coming to get you out of jail.
And I told them that on the front end once I got strong enough in Al-Anon.
And I was really glad I did because when that individual did get arrested, they didn't call me.
They called the sister.
The first time she went and then she and I talked, the second time she didn't.
(40:51):
They're endlessly resourceful, so it was always somebody to come.
But it didn't have to be me.
And to this point, I have not been to jail to get anybody out yet.
Hopefully, it's never me.
You know, that brought up for me, see, by you talking about that yesterday,
I was on the phone with my daughter and I know what's best for her, I think.
(41:16):
We're skilled.
We're skilled. We're skilled, yeah.
And she was telling me this another sad story.
And I got wrapped in before I even knew it.
And then as there was a pause in the conversation, it just hit me.
Rusty, you don't need to be telling her what she needs to do.
(41:37):
I used to make fun of people that they'd be sitting in an Al-Anon meeting,
they'd be talking about their little baby boy or something, you know.
So how old is he?
And they would go, you know, he's 40 or 45.
Well, my daughter's 56, so it never ends.
You have to, it's like I have to be alert all the time because this is my child.
(42:04):
I want the very best for that child.
And if I can fix it, then she won't have to go through the pain she needs to go through
to get to where she might want to be.
And that's why I have to be reminded all the time, Corinne.
Me too, Rusty.
(42:25):
Because people want to believe it or not, these children are so dear to us.
Well, but we call them grown family members.
Grown family members, because in my head she's still that little 14-year-old.
Grown family members, that's one of the things as a sponsor.
I've got to remember that, grown family members.
(42:46):
That I've been able to do because that's what I have to do.
If I'm going to treat them with respect, it's because they're a grown family member.
Because if I don't do that, when I can separate myself, the way that I've learned to do,
for the most part, is that I feel better.
If I don't, there's some attachment that I just take over again and attach myself to that.
(43:12):
Does that make sense?
And get drugged behind the train.
Yes.
Well, and then I'll get into fear.
The very worst is going to happen.
But that's our projecting.
We are so good at that.
It's our brains just automatically go to the worst.
Before you even know it, you're hooked.
I used to, when I first started Al-Anon, most of the people that were in there were people that were there
(43:39):
because of a husband or a wife or an uncle or a grand.
But now today, the majority is about their children.
Because we've had such a drug epidemic for so long now, that now it's totally changed almost.
It has.
And I wanted to say one more thing about stopping things.
(44:01):
For all the years I've been a sponsor, I've heard so many people say,
but it's so hard to do this, it's so hard to do it differently.
And I don't believe that today.
I probably would have said the same thing early on.
It isn't hard.
It's unfamiliar and uncomfortable.
What's hard is doing the same thing over and over and over again and getting the same results.
(44:27):
That's what's excruciating over time.
Doing something unfamiliar, it's only unfamiliar when you first do it.
Once you start practicing it, it's not unfamiliar anymore.
And the relief you get makes it stop being hard.
I think part of that too is people being willing to make those changes.
(44:48):
It has a lot to do with coming into Al-Anon.
Many people, including myself, were used to self-deprivation.
They would not give themselves the things that they really need or they deserve.
And that could be time, it could be a place, it could be a thing, it could be a person.
But whatever it is that's going to nurture us, and we put that aside because we're not that important.
(45:15):
That's how often people think.
Or it's just the opposite.
I'm so important, I'm controlling everybody.
Why isn't it working?
Instead of that balanced place as a human being, I need to nurture myself.
So going to the meetings is really about nurturing ourselves.
And it was certainly nurturing to me.
And it helped me grow tremendously and to begin to see what my needs are.
(45:40):
Sometimes you can't even see what your needs are because you're so far down the hole thinking that I don't need anything.
I'm the martyr here.
I'm the one that can do it, I can do it, whatever it is.
And by going to the meeting, you see how other people live their lives.
And it's like, wow, that might be good for me too.
You see how they solve their problems.
(46:02):
So that was just, I just wanted to put that in there, that idea of getting over that self deprivation.
But really looking at ourselves the same way we might consider a good friend and treating ourselves that way.
No, that's great.
Any last thoughts about anything that you want to share?
(46:23):
I would just say that for me, even early on, Al-Anon was about relief and freedom because I was carrying around all this weight of this disease
and the difficulties this individual was in and how that was impacting me.
And I can remember the first time I heard the three C's, you didn't cause it, you can't cure it, and you can't control it.
(46:47):
And I thought part of that was my fault, that he wouldn't be like that if I did something different.
I didn't understand alcoholism, I didn't know that it was a disease.
And hearing that and seeing the happy, joyous, and free people in that meeting, I cannot tell you what a relief that was.
(47:09):
It was just like freedom for the first time.
And every time I was sitting in a meeting, I felt that relief and freedom.
And most people think, I think that you have to go and learn all these things.
And really you have to let go of a lot of things, a lot of ideas, a lot of behaviors, just so many beliefs that you have.
Because I've had to change just about everything that I was doing that didn't work, even though I was clear that it should, because it wasn't my idea.
(47:38):
But letting go and listening to other people and doing what was suggested by my sponsor and doing what the 12-step work helps you learn changed everything.
You just have to be willing to show up and do it. That's it.
Thank you, Grant. Julianne?
Well, I think for me what was very helpful was the actual structure of Al-Anon, which is just going to meetings, using the literature, if you want to.
(48:04):
Nothing is like a rule. You don't have to do any of it. No one's going to call you up. That's what I thought was interesting, too.
I go to a meeting, you know, I went to a meeting for a while, and then I didn't show up one day.
And nobody called me and said, like, well, you weren't at the meeting. Why aren't you there? It's my life.
And it's total respect on everybody's part. If you want to come, come. If you don't want to come, don't come.
(48:28):
And if you want to improve your life, go to a meeting. That's what I would say.
And I often could use the group at the very beginning. That was my higher power. That gave me the courage to move forward.
And then it's after I reflected more over time that I could sense that spirituality that's inside me and connected to the larger universe.
(48:51):
Yeah, that's all I want to say. Like, you know, it's a free-flow thing. No one's going to make you do it.
But if you want to, it's going to help your life.
I'm so happy that I was able to find Al-Anon, and I did. I was really hurting when I got to Al-Anon.
I mean, I was ten years sober, but I was emotionally wrought. I just was.
(49:13):
And when I walked in there and I just let it all go, I was just ready.
I wanted to be a human being, and I wanted to have a relationship, a successful relationship.
I had many relationships, but I just wanted a successful relationship with another human being.
This has been a production of ChildrenOfChaos.net, and we invite you to share your thoughts with us via email to comments at ChildrenOfChaos.net.
(49:44):
Children of Chaos is a forum to discuss topics related to and in concert with addiction and recovery in America.
It is not affiliated with, endorsed, or financed by any recovery or treatment program, organization, or institution.
Any views, thoughts, or opinions expressed by an individual in this venue are solely that of the individual
(50:08):
and do not reflect the views, policies, or position of any specific recovery-based entity or organization.
Hi, good morning everyone. My name is Rusty and I'm an alcoholic.
(00:05):
And I'm Tim and I'm an alcoholic and this is Children of Chaos.
Today we are talking about Al-Anon, which is another 12-step program in the 12-step, what would you say, the 12-step what?
Recovery World.
Well, it is, yeah, it is in the recovery world, but for me too it's one of the most, well they're all important.
(00:31):
I was going to say most important, but they're all important for different individuals.
And Julianne just said...
In the tradition of the 12-step program.
In the tradition, that's the word, in the traditions of the 12-steps.
Well, and I've also heard someone say, alcoholics anonymous helped me get sober and Al-Anon taught me about relationships.
(00:55):
Yeah, and that's what I have said for years, that AA got me sober and Al-Anon helped me have the relationship today that I have.
Today we've got two wonderful people that are going to sit in today and are our guests today.
The first is Corinne, who I have known, what, 18, 20 years, who is in her own long-term recovery.
(01:21):
And Julianne, who I have known about 25 years, who is my darling wife and has been for the last 24 years.
So we've decided this morning we're just going to kind of free-flow it and let everybody just kind of talk about what they want to talk about.
About, in Al-Anon.
(01:42):
And my story is, I'm a recovering alcoholic also.
I'm also an ACOA, adult child of alcoholics.
And I am Al-Anon and have been a member of Al-Anon for, gosh, since I was about 10 years sober.
And so that's been about 30 years.
(02:03):
And as I said in the beginning, you know, AA got me sober.
And for 10 years that's what I focused on.
But then I was in a relationship that I just absolutely got my ass kicked in.
And it drove me to Al-Anon.
(02:25):
And I still remember that the morning that I was coming into Al-Anon and everybody would kind of come in together and then they would split off.
People would go to the right where the Al-Anon meeting was and they keep going straight ahead to the AA meeting.
And I veered off to go to Al-Anon and all my buddies were just laughing at me.
(02:46):
But now all those guys happen to be at Al-Anon also.
So it's kind of ironic.
Anyway, I thought we'd start out with just give you a little bit of background about each one of them.
And so Corinne, if you wouldn't mind, could you start off for us and maybe give your story a part?
All right. I'm Corinne Al-Anon.
(03:09):
I got to the Rooms of Recovery about 40 years ago, actually.
And that was because I was going to help my husband at the time who had had a relapse.
And I was just there to be of support.
I didn't have any inkling that it was about me.
The one good thing that came out of that was there was a lady that walked up to me and gave me a book.
(03:34):
She gave me the One Day at a Time book, which was really all we had back then, 40 years ago, I think.
And so I kept it, interestingly enough.
And then after a period of time when my husband decided he didn't need to be in there anymore,
that he just could sponsor himself, I decided I didn't need to be there either.
So I left.
And seven years later, after a particularly bad night, I crawled back into the rooms of Al-Anon
(04:00):
after reading the book that she had given me and after two people in my life who I really respected both
within two weeks of each other recommending to me that I go to Al-Anon with no request on my part.
So, I mean, that was my little god deal that happened to get me back to the rooms.
(04:21):
And they both were going to the same meeting that they recommended that they said was just fabulous.
So I went.
And the thing that changed for me was, well, there were two things.
One, I was absolutely desperate by then.
And number two, that meeting was so inviting and there was so much humor and so much honesty and openness in there
(04:43):
that it was so attractive that I just couldn't leave.
I made time for it because every time I went in there, I heard something I needed to hear.
I was able to see myself from a different place because it was coming out of the mouth of somebody else.
So that was 33 years ago and I haven't found it necessary to leave because I still need the support,
(05:06):
the camaraderie, the wisdom, the gut-level honesty that I had none of when I got here.
Julianne, how about yourself?
Well, that's a good question, Rusty.
I will say this.
My first Al-Anon meeting was in Minneapolis, Minnesota.
(05:27):
And I had a friend, a good friend that I was going to school at the University of Minnesota for my Masters in.
And I had a friend who was going to these meetings.
And then she had a pretty traumatic childhood.
Her father had been a drinker and he ended up hanging himself.
He killed himself.
And she's the one who found him as a little girl.
(05:49):
So she had been through a lot of therapy and so forth.
And she ended up finding a lot of help in Al-Anon.
Now, when we went, I really didn't know why I was going.
I just thought, you know, it was nice.
I'll go with her and accompany her.
And then I would read in the literature that it's for people, if you know somebody who's an alcoholic or in your, you know,
(06:12):
if you just have to know somebody that's into drug addiction or alcoholism, to go to it.
And when I went, you know, it was just a good feeling.
I mean, it was, this is Minneapolis, so there's a lot of recovery in Minnesota.
And so this, oh gosh, this was, I don't know, like maybe 28 years ago, something like that.
(06:33):
And people were just, I don't know, there's a good feeling there.
That's all I got out of it.
And, you know, of course, there were so many people, they broke into little groups.
And one of the little groups I went to, you know, like four or five of us talking, and we were going around the circle.
And this one woman was talking about her life and, you know, talking about,
(06:54):
well, she's staying with her husband, who's, is an alcoholic.
And, but she's really just staying because she likes the house.
And she, you know, and she, she likes, you know, being able to do what she wants to do.
And she's going on.
And of course, I'm like, I couldn't believe it that she would be saying these things.
But all I knew is she was talking about her life.
(07:15):
So when it came to my turn, I just gave her my resume, you know, it's like, oh, well, I've done this and I've done that.
And I was totally clueless as to why I'm here.
And then I never went again for many, many years.
And by that time, I was living in California and I had a boyfriend who I thought, you know, was a pretty organized person.
He worked pretty hard during the day.
(07:37):
But one day I noticed we had two trash cans in our apartment and one of them was always full.
And that was the one with the wine bottles.
And why I never saw it, you know, for two years, I don't know.
I just, but one day it just struck me.
This is pretty weird, you know, what's happening here.
And so I started trying to find Al-Anon.
(07:58):
I remembered having been to that one meeting and what, you know, I thought, now that's going to help me because I didn't know very many people in California.
I hadn't lived there very long.
And I couldn't find anyone. I couldn't find the meetings, you know.
I would call up and couldn't get called back.
And I'd go drive around and look for the place.
And I mean, for some it was a very strange thing.
(08:19):
But in the meantime, all of a sudden, my mom was sick and I went back to Oklahoma.
And the nurse that was the hospice nurse for my mom was somebody I knew in high school.
And I went to a very small high school.
So it was great to see her again.
And she was going to Al-Anon.
So right away we clicked.
(08:41):
And she told me where all the meetings are.
And I ended up going to AA speaker meetings first.
And because that was near my house.
And then once again, you know, I saw somebody, the first speaker I heard was somebody from my high school, from, you know, the boys school down the street from the girls school that I went to.
And again, I was like, oh, my God, this person is telling everything.
(09:03):
He's talking about his parents, his family.
Oh, my Lord.
And has he no shame?
This is what I thought.
And so that's what I had, you know, little by little it dawned on me what this program was about.
You know, it really was about getting over the messages that I had received in my childhood, the rules that were not functioning anymore for me.
(09:25):
That it was like.
And the reason that thing stuck out for me that he was talking.
And then the woman in the group, you know, Minnesota was because, you know, in my house, one of the rules was that I was growing up, you know, we don't talk about problems.
You know, we just, you know, everybody puts on a face.
Maybe not a happy face, but, you know, we just go about life and let it slide under the carpet.
(09:49):
And there were a lot of problems that should have been talked about.
So I was drawn, you know, to Alan on because of the openness and the honesty.
And I could hear other people's stories, and that made me more courageous about telling my story, you know, with it, with the folks in Alan on.
So that's how I got there.
(10:10):
That's that's the first thing, Rusty.
When you were saying, has he no shame?
That's right.
It just so happens I've been reading B'Nai Brown and Darren Greatley again.
And in in the book, she talks about the only way that really that we can get rid of shame.
And of course, we all know this because we've done this, is that you have to become vulnerable.
(10:35):
And the 12 steps of Alan on does that.
Well, the 12 steps, any any of the 12 steps do that for you by taking you through the 12 steps.
You start out with, you know, the the four step and then the fifth step where you tell another human being.
So, yes, he has no shame, probably, because that's what we do get rid of is a lot of the shame by just working the steps.
(11:06):
I've also been reading some in my favorite Alan on book, which is how Alan on works for families and friends of alcoholics.
The chapter I love the most is on communication, because that's the heart of any successful relationship that we're going to have is being able to communicate between you and anyone really that you communicate with, but especially with your significant other.
(11:36):
I just want to read this first little part of the chapter on communication and it says once we are able to take care of ourselves, we have much more to bring to our relationships with others.
The way we relate to others depends in large part upon the way we communicate.
So it is useful when examining our relationships to consider that what we say and how we say it.
(12:04):
For instance, do we say what we mean and mean what we say?
I've heard Korean say that phrase many times and don't say it mean.
Do we state our needs and desires or set back and wait for others to read our minds?
Do we agree to do things that we really don't want to do?
Saying yes when we may know.
(12:27):
Do we express our feelings and communicate our appreciation for those in our lives?
Or do we keep silent or deny what we feel out of fear or habit?
That's probably one of the most important things that I have learned in A.A. and especially Al-Anon to communicate.
(12:48):
I mentioned earlier that Julianne and I have been married for 24 years and we would not have that.
I don't think we would have the marriage that we have unless we had learned to communicate
and to set boundaries.
One of the things that Julianne is really, really good with me about is setting boundaries because with my alcoholic personality.
(13:13):
That's a nice way to say it, Rusty.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Is that she has learned and through her sponsorship and her sponsor is here today.
Right there.
Corrine.
Yeah, Corrine.
The way this is that she has learned how to set boundaries and not only set a boundary but hold that boundary.
(13:36):
And I can be pretty.
You're pretty pushy.
Yeah, pushy.
On certain things.
Demanding.
Yeah, you're a type A personality.
Yeah, I'm a type.
Yeah.
Assertive.
Very assertive.
Very assertive.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Well, you happen, by the way, you happen to be married to a guy that's kind of that way yourself, right?
(13:58):
Oh, yes.
Would you want to share some of, you know, you setting boundaries and saying what you mean and say it how?
Don't say it mean.
Yeah, don't say it mean.
Well, my husband had had experience with women who had not really had a lot of Al-Anon training at all in the past.
(14:22):
And he was used to confrontation and argument and demands and all kinds of things.
And I had, by the time I moved here when we got married, I had 15 years in recovery.
And I had learned how to say things differently to people, not to try to manipulate an outcome or get a specific outcome,
(14:45):
but just to be straightforward and honest without making demands.
I learned to make requests instead of demands.
And the first time we ever had a situation where I asked him about something and he was kind of taken aback, I think.
And he said, well, if you demand that I do that, maybe I can do that.
(15:09):
And I said, no, I don't make demands.
And he said, well, yes, you do.
Everybody makes demands.
And I said, no, everybody doesn't.
I don't.
I can make a request.
And if you aren't willing to honor that request, then I get to decide what I want to do from that point forward.
It's not about me trying to get my way.
(15:31):
It's about asking for what I need or want.
And then with whatever response I get, making a different decision going forward about what I wanted.
And that was the first time that I had encountered somebody who really hadn't had experience with that.
And the funny thing was that we got to a morning meeting the next day and he read the paragraph about the difference between a request and a demand is obvious to anyone.
(16:00):
And I can remember him saying, well, not necessarily.
But they taught me in Elanon how to communicate differently, how to ask for what I need and how to say what I'm willing.
Well, back to boundaries.
I didn't have any when I got here.
Physical abuse was about an infidelity.
(16:21):
We're about the only boundaries that I had.
And I had to learn what my boundaries were, what I was able to do and not able to do,
what I was willing to do and not willing to do and what I was willing to allow and not willing to allow.
And I had to learn what those things were for me before I could ever set a boundary.
(16:42):
The other thing I had to do was I had to get strong enough in recovery to be able to set the boundary.
And it had to have a consequence attached to it.
If it doesn't have a consequence, it's a rule.
And rules are made to be broken and will be.
If you're living with anyone with any alcoholic background, you can expect them to be chopped right in two.
(17:03):
But I had to learn how to have a consequence and be able to enforce it.
And it took me several years in Elanon to get strong enough to do that against really hard things, little things I could do.
But the big ones, you know, came more slowly.
And the first time my ex-husband had a fit, we'll just say that in a nice way, one night,
(17:25):
I knew not to respond because all that was going to do was start a back and forth.
And there was no good outcome coming there.
I went to bed early, got up the next morning and said, say, I need to just let you know something.
And he said, what's that?
I said, well, I just need to let you know if anything like last night occurs again, I'm going to have to get up and leave.
(17:47):
And I'm not sure when I'll be back.
I might just go to the store. I might drive around.
I might go see friends.
I might come back the next day.
I might not come back.
I don't know how I would react to that.
But I do know that if it happens again, I will get up and leave.
And the other thing I said was I have too much respect for myself today to allow anyone to speak to me like that without a consequence.
(18:11):
And that was life changing.
I expected the world to blow up.
Nothing happened.
Nothing happened.
Not only that.
No response by him?
No response.
Uh-huh.
It never happened again.
Because there was something about the quiet certainty, I think, of my voice that he could tell that I genuinely meant it, that I wasn't mad.
(18:32):
I wasn't upset.
I was just clear on what I was willing to do and not willing to do and not willing to allow as well.
How long does that take to get to there, though?
It took me several years.
Yeah, it does, doesn't it?
It took me about—it was about three years, I think, before I had enough recovery muscles to be able to—
Well, the other thing is I had to really believe it and mean it.
(18:55):
It wasn't that I was trying to change somebody's behavior.
It was that internally I couldn't do that anymore.
And I think that's what you have to get to.
Internally, am I able to do this anymore?
Or without that certainty and that strength inside and knowing that that is exactly how it is for you, it's hard to set a boundary.
Would you say that's kind of like a bottoming out for somebody in Lebanon?
(19:20):
Yes.
The way the alcoholic has a bottom.
You finally just get pushed that far.
And we get several.
Yeah, I guess so.
Over our history, our recovery history, we get several because new things come up all the time.
And Julienne, with you, Corinne being your sponsor, I know that you took all this stuff in.
(19:43):
And how did it feel for you, especially with someone like my personality that is pretty demanding?
I know how it changed me when you really started setting those boundaries.
Well, I think I came to Al-Anon with very few boundaries.
I had some, but not a whole lot.
And that's because how I grew up.
(20:04):
I had an older sister who was schizophrenic.
And so when I was like in middle school and high school, it was just she and I.
I had two other sisters, but they were already out of the home and away at college.
And one of them got married.
So Rebecca and I were the only ones at home.
And she, being schizophrenic, she would have these outbursts periodically.
(20:27):
And you just didn't know when it was coming.
And she had voices that she heard.
And so her voices apparently didn't like me.
I was not included in the fam, you know, of their voices.
So she would become aggressive towards me in different ways.
(20:48):
And they were messy, you know, things that were just ridiculous, anything.
I don't know.
She threw a plate of food on my head one time.
I mean, you know, it was never threatening my life.
But it was definitely breaking the boundaries of self-respect and respect from her.
And so I learned that.
That became the normal thing for me by the time I graduated.
(21:12):
I mean, I knew I didn't like it, but it was instilled in me already that this is the normal thing.
You know, you have your boundaries broken.
Life is like that.
So later in life, as I go along, I had that.
That's kind of a rule I had in my head on how to act.
And so I didn't recognize boundaries with other people.
(21:34):
And also I wanted to be in control of situations because things were out of control at my house.
So that was another characteristic that I took with me as a young adult out into the world.
So it took me a lot of years to begin to see where that, the closed door of where that road takes you.
(21:56):
Thinking I could manipulate other people and, you know, I knew exactly what was right.
I knew what was right for you.
That was the feeling I had because I was in control of my life.
Well, in truth, underneath all that was low self-esteem.
And that's a lot of what brings people into Al-Anon.
And it's from what we call codependency.
(22:19):
And that low self-esteem, you know, it's developed from how we grow up in different homes.
And I've told you a little bit about mine.
But people, you know, you don't rely on yourself for validation when you have low self-esteem.
We look outside ourselves for that validation.
So it was really important that I got you to validate me in some way, whatever it was that I needed to do.
(22:50):
And that was, that's part of the merry-go-round of being a codependent before I got to Al-Anon.
So when I did get to Al-Anon, I had some tools in my belt just because I had lived some life.
You know, you live life a little bit. You're in a few relationships.
I had been married before I met you, Rusty.
And so I had some experience, but I didn't have the kind of tools that Al-Anon could give me
(23:15):
that helps me get over those messages that I incorporated into my life when I grew up, those really strong ones.
And by hearing how other people improve their life by just doing these simple steps, I mean, they're very simple.
I mean, I know somebody in Al-Anon, and she was always laughing, saying like, and that for me, too.
(23:37):
I would see the 12 steps, you know, and they're posted when you go to a meeting.
They're up there, you know, the 12 steps, da-da-da.
And I would think, but people can't remember this, you know, they can't.
I mean, 12 steps, people are in there like 40 years.
I've been in Al-Anon for 40 years, you know, or 25 years.
And you're like, what? You couldn't do the 12 steps in one?
(23:58):
And so I realized it's a very subtle program.
It takes a long time to build up your self-esteem and to be able to step back
and understand the respect we have for each other and the boundaries that we need and so many other rules that we have.
And I think, Corrine, you came from one of those kind of homes where you're not talking about problems.
(24:21):
Is that true?
Oh, heavens, yes.
Yeah, part of it was the times because appearances were huge in the town that I grew up in.
It was very socially stratified town and to be part of the haves and not the have-nots was critical to my mother particularly.
So appearances were everything. I mean, everything.
(24:44):
And so I learned that achievement was just the thing in my family.
I mean, you had to make great grades.
You had to do, you had to wear the perfect outfit.
You had to learn how to behave in a certain way so that you would be accepted.
There were just so many things around that.
And in one sense, it's like a lot of things.
(25:07):
It was good training.
It taught me that living in a house where people take care of things was important,
but it was important because of your own personal convenience and comfort, not so much for how other people perceive it.
But in my house, it was all about how other people perceived it.
I had an organdy bedspread and silk wallpaper in my room.
(25:31):
You couldn't sit on the bed.
I had a chaise lounge, a French chaise lounge that you could sit on.
And so that had to be ironed carefully.
And you couldn't hammer anything into the walls because it was silk wallpaper.
My friends loved to come to my house because my mother put on quite a show when we had company
and would have special things to eat and do, and the house would be absolutely perfect.
(25:56):
And I was like, yeah, but I want to go to their house because you can just be yourself, you know,
and you can just be so much more relaxed and comfortable and everything.
So that was the way I grew up.
I was aware of the difference.
You know, when you say that, of course, that makes me think about my growing up.
And my house was total chaos.
(26:19):
My parents were either, my stepdad really was either, he was drunk and it was just,
well, it was just children of chaos.
That's where I got the name for this.
And my mom was perfectionistic.
And she had some French provincial furniture in the front room, and we had plastic covers on it.
(26:43):
And when anybody would come over, well, the plastic would come up.
And, you know, we could all sit in the living room, and if no one was there,
the plastic was on and you did not, you didn't even sit on the plastic.
Besides, who the hell wants to sit on plastic, you know?
But that's, there's a lot of perfectionism in these, most everyone I know has suffered from some
(27:06):
perfectionism in some way, shape or form that are OCD, and the list goes on.
There's different levels of sobriety.
And I know that I'm looking at sobriety in a totally different way than I did even 15 years ago.
Can you tell us how you see Alan on today versus when you first came in?
(27:33):
Yes, I can.
My perception and perspective was so far off when I first got to Alan on.
And the sad thing was, I thought it was absolutely accurate that I had the vision.
I could see things as exactly as they were and act accordingly.
(27:55):
And then, because of my great altruistic personality, help you to do the same.
I didn't know that there was another better way of looking at things than the way I was looking at them.
And I would never have gotten there without hearing people in meetings be honest about what had happened,
(28:19):
what they had done as a result of that, and their Alan on training, and then how it turned out.
Because people who come to Alan on usually have a problem with projecting.
And they always project the absolute worst.
They never tell a good story.
In my experience, I've been a sponsor for 32 years, and I have yet to hear a good story doing step work
(28:42):
about how things are going to be or what the fears were.
They're always really difficult stories.
And the truth lies somewhere else usually.
And if I can talk to someone else like a sponsor, I can get their perspective on it.
And having that, having had sponsors for the last 32 years,
I have been given the gift of over that time getting lots of different perspectives on things.
(29:10):
I'll tell you one that really shifted me.
And this was by the time, by this time I had been in recovery for probably 10 years.
And two things happened.
One is my marriage was very unhappy.
No one was talking to me at home.
Nobody was coming over because he didn't want anybody over.
It was a wasteland in my house.
I lived in the garden most of the time.
(29:31):
So after two years of working with my sponsor to be the best partner a human being can be,
so that whatever happened with the marriage, at least I would have learned some new skills by that time.
And I did. I did.
She taught me a lot of wonderful things.
But then I left the marriage.
And my sponsor and I were going to a big conference up in Eureka Springs, actually.
(29:54):
And we were driving.
And this was my third marriage.
And I had so I had had three divorces.
And you talk about shame.
Oh, my gosh.
I couldn't tell anybody that.
So I said to her, I said, Carletta, I'm going to have to ask you a favor.
And she said, What's that?
I said, I'm going to have to get you to let me tell a different story about my life.
(30:19):
And she said, What are you talking about?
I said, Well, I can't tell anybody that I've been divorced three times.
They'll run like their hair's on fire.
And she said, That's what you think?
And I said, Well, of course it's what I think.
And that's what I saw.
I just saw this is going to be so bad.
And she said, Well, that's not what I think.
And I said, Well, what do you think?
(30:40):
And she said, Well, I was in an extremely difficult relationship.
And because of how bad it was, I have been afraid to get in another one long term.
And she said, You give me hope because you don't give up and you keep trying.
And she said, I admire your courage.
(31:01):
In a million years, I would have never seen that.
I would never seen myself that way.
So sponsors help you see yourself differently.
And people in the group help you see yourself differently because of the stories they tell about themselves.
So that's the biggest thing that's changed for me, I think, other than having the courage to set boundaries,
(31:22):
is my change in perspective and perception.
And that's why it's so important to have the people around you in recovery to talk to
because they can see things from a perspective that you can't.
Thank you.
Well, I'll just say this.
Some of the changes I've seen is like when I first started going to meetings here in Tulsa,
I went to this place called the Little Cabin.
(31:45):
And it was behind a church and it was a little cabin.
It was pretty neat.
And at first, I superficially looked and heard what people were saying their story was,
who they were and what they were about.
They were struggling with this or that.
And mostly it was women in that meeting.
It just so happened.
There were sprinkling of men.
(32:06):
And what has been great is that over the years, I've seen these people change.
Even if I wasn't able to see myself, I could see how their lives have changed.
And for the better, by doing all those things, by setting boundaries,
or just standing up for themselves and making choices that are healthy for them.
(32:30):
I think one of the things that a big message that many of us have and I had leaving home
from growing up in my home was, don't be selfish.
We can't be selfish.
And especially women get that message.
Young girls, it's like, just take care of things.
Just don't be selfish.
Cook dinner.
(32:51):
Do the dishes.
Clean up the house or whatever it is.
It doesn't matter.
So I would see that when people got into Al-Anon.
My first take on it was, as a meeting, I was kind of selfish.
They're talking about just thinking about me and not the other person.
(33:12):
I came in because I wanted to, maybe my relationship might get back together.
Maybe I could change him in some way.
So I began to realize it's about me and that it's not selfish to look at myself.
It's not selfish to want to have a vision of my life that's a positive one and not just
helter-skelter.
(33:34):
Do whatever happens, whatever door opens, okay, I'll be there for it.
I'm not going to be selfish.
I'm not going to be just thinking of myself.
And to get out of that mode of thinking and actually self-actualize myself.
I didn't say that right, but you know what I mean.
That is something that Al-Anon has brought into my life and I think so many others that
(33:59):
I've seen.
So that whatever these curveballs are that life brings me, and they come.
They come a lot.
My older sister did finally die.
My parents died.
I have a friend who's sick with cancer.
You've been sick, Rusty, for a little period of time here, and that was a curveball.
I'm able to be flexible enough to deal with that in my life.
(34:23):
And I'm not this rigid person that just falls when something happens.
I'm able to deal with life itself.
And that's what they talk about, you know, in all the 12-step programs is just dealing
with life on its own terms.
It's a great thing.
Life is really beautiful that way, and we can handle it.
(34:44):
But we have to have that inner resource.
And part of that is the spirituality, too, that I was able to develop more when I was
in the program.
And everybody has their own idea of what kind of God they believe in or no God at all, which
is fine.
But for me, yeah, I do, you know, I do have a God that I believe in, but because I've
(35:05):
seen miracles.
You know, I've seen it in the people in Al-Anon, and I see it so often in my own life.
You know, I think meeting you is just like a miracle, Rusty, because I wasn't looking
for anybody.
You know, I was pretty self-contained.
You know, there was just a click.
There was a click.
And it's all definitely been beneficial in my life.
(35:28):
Yeah, and let me say this about that, too.
If there was ever a couple that should be together, I think it's me and Julie.
I mean, I've learned because of the way of living and what her belief system has been
and through her sponsorship, I'm not saying that because Corinne's sitting there.
I mean that with all my heart, that we have formed a relationship where I have total respect
(35:55):
for Julie Ann.
It's just not respect.
It's a, I have a trust factor with her that I've never had in my life.
Now, maybe some of that's because I'm more trustworthy.
Some of that could be that.
But to have that relationship and to both of us be on the same level of our, in our
(36:16):
beliefs, although we do have, you know, our separate opinions on things.
But at the same time, we respect the other person and listen to what they have.
She helped me before you guys got here this morning.
I was kind of down because I hadn't felt good in a while.
And by the time we got through talking, I felt much better because I can, I knew that
(36:38):
what she was saying was the truth and I could accept that.
I could have accepted that in myself.
So there's so many benefits to living the Al-Anon way of life, but it's more than that.
It's the 12 steps.
I always say this.
It's about different levels of awareness that we have.
And I remember when we met, there were things that you didn't tell me about yourself.
(37:02):
Oh, yeah.
About your family.
Oh, I wouldn't tell you that I had schizophrenic sisters.
Yes.
I mean, there was so much shame in that.
And then I would get to watch you grow and see what you went through.
And it gave me more incentive to come clean about myself.
And even as you're talking, I'm thinking about, you know, one of the messages that I took from home
(37:25):
also was don't express your feelings.
You know, don't really be genuine with your feelings because we've got to make this whole thing work.
Somebody will use it against you.
Oh, yeah, somebody could use it against you.
Right.
So just to hear you talk about your feelings, see, it still makes me uncomfortable
because that's how deep those rules are.
And for me to express my feelings is really difficult.
(37:48):
But I've gotten so much better at it because I've had this practice of working these 12 steps
and having a sponsor that I can go to and my meetings.
You know, all of those things combined.
And the literature really has helped me.
Well, I wanted to say something about one of the most important things I had to learn in Al-Anon.
(38:13):
And for me, it was a real struggle because, well, we talk about alcoholics have to stop drinking or using or whatever.
And I think Al-Anon's have the same compulsion.
It's just not to drink or use.
It's to fix things or prevent the next disaster or help someone become their best self.
According to me.
(38:36):
So about, I would say, at least two thirds of what I've had to do in Al-Anon has been about what I've had to stop doing.
My whole life was about trying harder, learning more, applying that, you know, just doing more research.
But a whole lot of it has been about what I've had to stop doing.
I still have to work on that every day.
(39:00):
I have a family member who has mental health issues and I still want to make suggestions.
Let me tell you how nicely that's met.
It doesn't go well at all.
And it just reminds me, stop. Stop.
This is not your life.
This is their path.
They're going to have to figure it out.
(39:21):
They cannot hear what you say.
When someone's in the active disease, whether it's mental health or alcoholism or whatever it is,
one of the things I do is visualize in between me and that individual,
there's a little creature that's just dancing there in between us.
And whatever my little suggestion is that goes that way, they're like a goalie and they block it.
(39:44):
And then the next thing that I give their way, it's going to get blocked as well.
And I can't understand why that person doesn't hear me.
It's because the disease is in charge and it doesn't really matter whether it's mental health or alcoholism.
So I still have to stop and step back and let somebody figure out things on their own,
(40:05):
go down the path they go down, hit the consequences that they hit.
The hardest thing for someone, I think, early in Al-Anon is to stop blocking the consequences that somebody's going to get.
And I had to do that.
I had to learn to step out of the way and let them get the consequences of whatever it was.
I had to tell my children that if you get arrested for substance abuse,
(40:29):
I will not be coming to get you out of jail.
And I told them that on the front end once I got strong enough in Al-Anon.
And I was really glad I did because when that individual did get arrested, they didn't call me.
They called the sister.
The first time she went and then she and I talked, the second time she didn't.
(40:51):
They're endlessly resourceful, so it was always somebody to come.
But it didn't have to be me.
And to this point, I have not been to jail to get anybody out yet.
Hopefully, it's never me.
You know, that brought up for me, see, by you talking about that yesterday,
I was on the phone with my daughter and I know what's best for her, I think.
(41:16):
We're skilled.
We're skilled. We're skilled, yeah.
And she was telling me this another sad story.
And I got wrapped in before I even knew it.
And then as there was a pause in the conversation, it just hit me.
Rusty, you don't need to be telling her what she needs to do.
(41:37):
I used to make fun of people that they'd be sitting in an Al-Anon meeting,
they'd be talking about their little baby boy or something, you know.
So how old is he?
And they would go, you know, he's 40 or 45.
Well, my daughter's 56, so it never ends.
You have to, it's like I have to be alert all the time because this is my child.
(42:04):
I want the very best for that child.
And if I can fix it, then she won't have to go through the pain she needs to go through
to get to where she might want to be.
And that's why I have to be reminded all the time, Corinne.
Me too, Rusty.
(42:25):
Because people want to believe it or not, these children are so dear to us.
Well, but we call them grown family members.
Grown family members, because in my head she's still that little 14-year-old.
Grown family members, that's one of the things as a sponsor.
I've got to remember that, grown family members.
(42:46):
That I've been able to do because that's what I have to do.
If I'm going to treat them with respect, it's because they're a grown family member.
Because if I don't do that, when I can separate myself, the way that I've learned to do,
for the most part, is that I feel better.
If I don't, there's some attachment that I just take over again and attach myself to that.
(43:12):
Does that make sense?
And get drugged behind the train.
Yes.
Well, and then I'll get into fear.
The very worst is going to happen.
But that's our projecting.
We are so good at that.
It's our brains just automatically go to the worst.
Before you even know it, you're hooked.
I used to, when I first started Al-Anon, most of the people that were in there were people that were there
(43:39):
because of a husband or a wife or an uncle or a grand.
But now today, the majority is about their children.
Because we've had such a drug epidemic for so long now, that now it's totally changed almost.
It has.
And I wanted to say one more thing about stopping things.
(44:01):
For all the years I've been a sponsor, I've heard so many people say,
but it's so hard to do this, it's so hard to do it differently.
And I don't believe that today.
I probably would have said the same thing early on.
It isn't hard.
It's unfamiliar and uncomfortable.
What's hard is doing the same thing over and over and over again and getting the same results.
(44:27):
That's what's excruciating over time.
Doing something unfamiliar, it's only unfamiliar when you first do it.
Once you start practicing it, it's not unfamiliar anymore.
And the relief you get makes it stop being hard.
I think part of that too is people being willing to make those changes.
(44:48):
It has a lot to do with coming into Al-Anon.
Many people, including myself, were used to self-deprivation.
They would not give themselves the things that they really need or they deserve.
And that could be time, it could be a place, it could be a thing, it could be a person.
But whatever it is that's going to nurture us, and we put that aside because we're not that important.
(45:15):
That's how often people think.
Or it's just the opposite.
I'm so important, I'm controlling everybody.
Why isn't it working?
Instead of that balanced place as a human being, I need to nurture myself.
So going to the meetings is really about nurturing ourselves.
And it was certainly nurturing to me.
And it helped me grow tremendously and to begin to see what my needs are.
(45:40):
Sometimes you can't even see what your needs are because you're so far down the hole thinking that I don't need anything.
I'm the martyr here.
I'm the one that can do it, I can do it, whatever it is.
And by going to the meeting, you see how other people live their lives.
And it's like, wow, that might be good for me too.
You see how they solve their problems.
(46:02):
So that was just, I just wanted to put that in there, that idea of getting over that self deprivation.
But really looking at ourselves the same way we might consider a good friend and treating ourselves that way.
No, that's great.
Any last thoughts about anything that you want to share?
(46:23):
I would just say that for me, even early on, Al-Anon was about relief and freedom because I was carrying around all this weight of this disease
and the difficulties this individual was in and how that was impacting me.
And I can remember the first time I heard the three C's, you didn't cause it, you can't cure it, and you can't control it.
(46:47):
And I thought part of that was my fault, that he wouldn't be like that if I did something different.
I didn't understand alcoholism, I didn't know that it was a disease.
And hearing that and seeing the happy, joyous, and free people in that meeting, I cannot tell you what a relief that was.
(47:09):
It was just like freedom for the first time.
And every time I was sitting in a meeting, I felt that relief and freedom.
And most people think, I think that you have to go and learn all these things.
And really you have to let go of a lot of things, a lot of ideas, a lot of behaviors, just so many beliefs that you have.
Because I've had to change just about everything that I was doing that didn't work, even though I was clear that it should, because it wasn't my idea.
(47:38):
But letting go and listening to other people and doing what was suggested by my sponsor and doing what the 12-step work helps you learn changed everything.
You just have to be willing to show up and do it. That's it.
Thank you, Grant. Julianne?
Well, I think for me what was very helpful was the actual structure of Al-Anon, which is just going to meetings, using the literature, if you want to.
(48:04):
Nothing is like a rule. You don't have to do any of it. No one's going to call you up. That's what I thought was interesting, too.
I go to a meeting, you know, I went to a meeting for a while, and then I didn't show up one day.
And nobody called me and said, like, well, you weren't at the meeting. Why aren't you there? It's my life.
And it's total respect on everybody's part. If you want to come, come. If you don't want to come, don't come.
(48:28):
And if you want to improve your life, go to a meeting. That's what I would say.
And I often could use the group at the very beginning. That was my higher power. That gave me the courage to move forward.
And then it's after I reflected more over time that I could sense that spirituality that's inside me and connected to the larger universe.
(48:51):
Yeah, that's all I want to say. Like, you know, it's a free-flow thing. No one's going to make you do it.
But if you want to, it's going to help your life.
I'm so happy that I was able to find Al-Anon, and I did. I was really hurting when I got to Al-Anon.
I mean, I was ten years sober, but I was emotionally wrought. I just was.
(49:13):
And when I walked in there and I just let it all go, I was just ready.
I wanted to be a human being, and I wanted to have a relationship, a successful relationship.
I had many relationships, but I just wanted a successful relationship with another human being.
This has been a production of ChildrenOfChaos.net, and we invite you to share your thoughts with us via email to comments at ChildrenOfChaos.net.
(49:44):
Children of Chaos is a forum to discuss topics related to and in concert with addiction and recovery in America.
It is not affiliated with, endorsed, or financed by any recovery or treatment program, organization, or institution.
Any views, thoughts, or opinions expressed by an individual in this venue are solely that of the individual
(50:08):
and do not reflect the views, policies, or position of any specific recovery-based entity or organization.
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