May 8, 2024 • 41 mins
2024 1029 Am I Clean And Sober If? Finale; Jonathan, Merlin, and Dan share about the impact and benefit of a certain substances or medications, the purpose and intent of the individual, whether or not the person is actually working the recovery program, and finally that it is not our place to judge another person.
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(00:00):
Morning, everybody. This is Rusty and I'm an alcoholic.
(00:04):
And I'm Tim and I'm an alcoholic and this is Children of Chaos.
This morning I have got three of my close friends in AA.
I've known these guys for many years and I really have a lot of respect for each one of them.
We are going to talk about what does it mean to be clean and sober if there is such a thing.
(00:25):
And we talked about this a couple of weeks ago and it brought up more questions than it did answers.
So today we are going to start out.
First of all, I'd like to talk about the difference between Zoloft and Xanax.
And the reason I use that is that when I came in in 1983, if I was on a bay, which is just about the same thing as Xanax,
(00:54):
and I asked my sponsor at that time, I said, well, what does it mean to be clean and sober?
And I said, because I've been on Xanax for 18 years.
And then he asked me if I took them prescribed and I said, I just take them whenever I want to take them when I need them.
And he said, well, you're not, you're not, you're not clean and sober.
(01:16):
And so I went off the volume immediately and I didn't titrate down.
I didn't do any of that. And it got pretty crazy for me.
So for me, and I know there's a lot of shame that's carried if you're carried around with people that they'll come into meetings and they'll be sober from alcohol.
(01:42):
But they're still doing some other mood altering drug.
And what we're going to talk about today is what does it mean to be sober?
Does anyone want to start? Well, you know, there's two words that come to mind, dry versus sober.
So when I first got in in 90 in California, they said you stay dry by not drinking.
(02:06):
You get sober by working the steps and changing your lifestyle.
So there's a distinction between being dry and being sober.
So I just like to make sure we have that that's you know, there are people I know that have been dry for a long time and they're nothing close to being sober.
We all know people like that. The restless herbal discontent, the jump down people's throats.
(02:29):
They're judgmental. They have nothing about the program that is part of their lifestyle.
But they're not ingesting alcohol anymore.
They almost wish they would. You just like go have a drink for God's sake.
OK, we know people like that. They sometimes close meetings down because people don't want to go there anymore.
So I'd like to just say if we're talking about dry, which is no alcohol,
(02:51):
or sober, which is somebody that's actually working the steps and changing their relationship with God, which is what the program is all about.
And I agree with Jonathan. And it's really an important distinction of being dry.
That is not ingesting a alcohol, a drug, any drug that alters the personality.
(03:13):
And that's an important distinction. And that is dry.
I remember I looked up and commented on this in the last podcast.
What was the definition of sober? And it fundamentally is a non-useful definition that basically says not drunk.
And that is actually a good explanation for the dry drunk, because they aren't sober,
(03:40):
because they are still behaving like a drunk or like they have an altered personality.
And those are colloquial within AA. And I think we ought to keep them colloquial within AA.
When we have a conversation with people who aren't part of the 12-step recovery community,
(04:01):
these distinctions are somewhat meaningless.
Well, you just went a long way to defining it, okay, that what we refer to as a dry drunk.
And everybody here knows a dry drunk, you kind of want to make the sign of the cross, like, oh my God, these are dry drunk.
You don't want to hang out with this guy. He's like being with a drunk, but he's not. He's not drunk.
(04:22):
Drunk can be happy too sometimes.
So, Jonathan, is there any TSM 5 characteristic that you would fit the dry, what we call a dry drunk,
in terms of either a personality disorder or an actual mental illness?
Heck, you could probably pick three or four.
And what would you pick?
Well, first off, the narcissism is huge in there, okay?
(04:46):
Right.
It's all about me, self-centeredness.
Yes.
That's the hallmark. It's they'll turn every conversation into me.
Then borderline, okay, which is if you cross me, I've got you on my list and you can't get off it.
And I'm dangerous.
And there's several of them.
And some of it could be anxiety manifestations and all kinds of other...
(05:10):
Lots of phobias.
Lots of phobias, you know.
So that's a person who, a dry drunk is somebody who appears to have a personality disorder
or something is not working well in their personality.
Let's leave it at that.
Because it isn't really addressed in the DSM 5 as a disease.
(05:31):
So what happens when we say someone is not... they don't have emotional sobriety?
Have we seen the same thing there?
Yeah.
I am too.
But there's gradients of that, of course.
I'm sorry?
There are gradients of that.
Oh yeah, there's degrees of that.
So how much of us have real, true emotional sobriety?
(05:53):
Exactly.
You know, none of us are enlightened people.
Right.
So we're still working on it.
You know, it says we are not saints.
I've got a lot of time without using any alcohol.
But I sure don't have that same amount of time with emotional sobriety.
That's what the steps can do for me because each time...
I mean, I've got a lot more emotional sobriety than I had five years ago.
(06:18):
You know, I think we need to look at the context of what we're talking about though.
Because somebody that just comes into the program and quits drinking and quits using drugs
and yet uses a lot of their old behavior, you would say they do not have emotional sobriety.
You would say they weren't sober from all standpoints and yet they qualify for getting
(06:41):
chips and for being in the program.
So in the groups we're in, there are people that don't have emotional sobriety because
of where they are in the road and yet are working the program and doing what they're
supposed to be doing.
To the best of their ability.
Yes.
That's a really good point.
It is.
(07:02):
And really what they're getting is they're acknowledging dry time.
The level of their emotional sobriety is...
None of us are the judge of that.
Quite frankly, if you look at the natural history of this, if there are three months,
dry is a real goal.
There is not much emotional sobriety in that goal.
If you're a year, you might be able to begin working on not being just dry and working
(07:29):
on being the way AA defines sober because your behaviors are still acting like a drunk
person or a wood-altered person.
And when you add in that people come into the program at different levels.
I'm not saying some of us are dead here sicker than others.
(07:50):
Absolutely.
And that's the truth.
That's the truth.
I mean, really I was one that was sicker than others.
Me too.
I really was.
And who's to say where during that year you should have so much emotional sobriety or
you might not have any at all.
You might still go off at the least happening.
And we see people like that in the program that continue to have onset of problems and
(08:15):
yet aren't drinking.
And who's to say where they should get better?
I think we're the observers.
We're talking about this.
But it really depends on the person and whether they're making an attempt to have an emotional
sobriety.
Thank you.
Yes.
That's right.
And Gil used to, Jonathan and I had a sponsor.
(08:37):
His name was Gil.
And Gil would always say, what is your motive?
Check your motive.
Check your motive.
Check your motive.
And I want to go back to the Xanax for a minute because I work with a lot of people and doctors
who prescribe a lot of Xanax.
And if someone, this is where I think it gets so the fine line is that what if that person
(08:59):
is taking that Xanax just as it is prescribed because their doctor said this is what you
need to be on.
And that happens a lot.
So what about them?
In the last conversation, I think I addressed that issue.
And the issue is if the doctor prescribed it for a clear cut diagnosis, which is usually
(09:24):
going to be one of the anxiety disorders, and it's working for that individual, it is
going to have a side effect.
And that side effect is going to be a very high risk of dependency, meaning the individual
is going to need to take it as prescribed and has a very high risk, very high risk of
(09:45):
using it when they need it, like you used your Valium.
And that's where you get into trouble because it now creates, sets off the circuit of craving
and dependency.
And suddenly the anxiety that comes from not having this Xanax may get more, even higher
(10:06):
magnitude than the anxiety before the Xanax.
So it's a very difficult drug to use.
Now, that doesn't mean it doesn't have a place.
It does have a place.
And some people will function.
And the only reason we doctors prescribe medications is to cure something or to help people function
(10:27):
in the face of disabilities.
And here there's an emotional disability in the case of these anxiety disorders.
So I think it's not a good idea for people without any medical background to be telling
people about the drugs that have been prescribed for them, regardless of what the drugs are.
(10:50):
As I said in the last broadcast, if I feel somebody is really in trouble with the drug,
I will recommend that they get another opinion just simply because there are lots of ways
of dealing with things.
Third thing I've learned is that the spiritual program, and we haven't even used that word
(11:12):
yet, the spiritual program of the 12 steps, it's not a psychological program, guys.
It's a spiritual program.
And that becomes really, really very important.
The spiritual program has relieved many people's anxiety so they can function very well without
the drug.
Yeah, that's a great point.
(11:34):
My primary physician, who I really respect, he prescribes Benzos.
And he's very careful because what will happen with Benzo is the person will start to use
double the dose.
So they'll get one milligram and then they'll find out they need two milligrams.
That will trigger him and he'll call me up and say, I have this guy, you think you might
(11:55):
be able to work with him on teaching a little meditation or something?
I think he needs to come up with something else.
I've got one right now that he's referred to me.
So he's aware of it now that if you get somebody who's got that anxiety disorder and they're
frozen, they're stuck, sometimes a Benzo is what's going to get them unstuck so we can
make the appointment.
(12:16):
I remember when I was doing the therapy training and I was so down on drugs and I said no.
And those therapists there said, are you kidding me?
Half my patients wouldn't show up.
They're stuck in their house.
We need that.
And I get it.
That's the issue, Tim, that you mentioned before we started the podcast, that the mind
(12:37):
has to be clear to get the treatment.
What Jonathan just told us about was the other way around.
The treatment, the drug is having an effect, but the patient is already getting in trouble
with the drug.
Let's move to something else.
And that's where the spiritual programs, the meditation programs, the working the 12 steps
(12:59):
comes in.
You've got to have that balance.
You've got to be ready to be able to do the 12 steps.
And as Jonathan said, they're so anxious they won't leave the house to even go to a meeting.
So they're not going to be working the 12 steps.
If they're disabled by the anxiety.
It is disabling.
(13:20):
Therefore, you may need a drug to enable getting out of the house in face of the anxiety.
So we said that in the last two episodes, that if somebody is taking, for example, anti-depressants
or antipsychotics, please, please, please, please do not stop taking those without your
(13:47):
doctor's advice.
And so how does that play into that situation?
And those are two different drug categories.
You know, SSRS, antipsychotics is a definite big hard stop.
Don't say anything that has to be done by your psychiatrist, most likely your psychiatrist,
not your primary doctor who may not be trained in how to use those drugs because they're
(14:10):
powerful, man.
See, I'm the way person asking the question.
That's what.
Don't stop.
Don't stop.
Don't stop.
It's not the people that, you know, listen here.
Most of them aren't medically oriented.
But the distinction between those three is so important.
The benzos or the anti-anxiety are complicated because alcohol itself behaves like a benzo
(14:39):
and changes the brain chemistry around anxiety.
And as all of us in this room know, when we couldn't, when we needed alcohol and couldn't
get it, what did we have?
Anxiety.
And so it's a part of the disease of the alcoholism.
So that's one really important thing.
(15:00):
And we've had a good discussion on it.
But for goodness sake, the antidepressants and the antipsychotics are very different.
Don't lump them together with the benzos.
And because they are, they're not, they're a little more focused on where they work in
the brain and the symptoms that they address.
(15:22):
They all might address anxiety as well.
In fact, antidepressants and even some antipsychotics are used by psychiatrists to treat anxiety
if there are other things associated with it.
I got a question for you.
It's just my experience that people that have anxiety disorder are not likely to suicide.
(15:45):
That there's other things that make it much more likely to suicide.
And so, you know, I think that's a good distinction.
There's a lot of people walking around with anxiety disorder and they are not close to
taking their lives.
But if you are being treated for some other personality defect with a conipin or one of
those things, you're likely to suicide if you're not treated.
(16:08):
The issue with, you're exactly right, that anxiety, well, of the SPACA, people with any
psychiatric disorder can suicide.
That's the first thing.
Secondly, obviously suicide is a critical part of depression and some of the personality
disorders, particularly Porter-Lyne personality disorder.
(16:30):
You're right.
It's not as common.
What's problematic is that the benzodiazepines with an opioid can stop your breathing.
Yeah, you'll die.
And so you can overdose on an opioid and die.
And so if you're taking, so the anxiety people who die in a suicidal opinion could be an
(16:51):
accident, could be an overdose, could be a suicide.
I want to interject something, when I was 10 years sober and I had not taken any benzos,
not drinking, I was what I would call back to clean and sober.
And I went through a really tough relationship and I came out on the other side of that because
(17:16):
I have anxiety, high anxiety.
And so when I went to my doctor about it and my doctor's known me all those years, he knew
that I'm, he knows that I'm an alcoholic addict, but I needed something to change my mood,
to get me out of that deep depression I was in.
(17:37):
So what he started me on was Zoloft.
And Zoloft works for two things, essentially it works on depression and anxiety.
Here's the question, I've tried to go off of them several times.
And I used to think if I worked the steps long enough, if I just did this, then it would all go away.
(18:01):
Okay, I'm diabetic, as well as my friend is diabetic.
I can't think myself out of it, okay?
I'm always going to need some form of insulin, some form of a medication that's going to allow
myself to accept the sugars.
So it's not a matter of me retraining myself, it's a matter of I'm going to be dependent.
(18:26):
I'm okay.
I resisted it for a long time, but the older I get the more I realize that's just how I am.
That's how the Creator made me.
But you tried.
I tried over and over again.
That's the thing.
I resisted it.
My intent was not to change the way I felt in a depressive mood.
(18:47):
I've always looked at it like the Zoloft brought my level of serotonin up to match.
And when I'm faithful about taking my medication, I do really alright.
And I've gone off of it several times because of what I was taught in the program.
(19:11):
So that's why I think that this is really an important subject for me.
And I know I've tried everything that was in my power to do something with that.
I think Jonathan's point about anxiety disorders, major depression, bipolar disease, our biochemical
(19:32):
abnormalities of the body.
And they have normal waxes and wanes, meaning they get worse and get better on a cycle that
we don't quite understand.
Stress will make them worse, no question.
By the way, same thing with diabetes.
Stress will make it worse.
Same with diabetes.
So that's why it's so difficult that we not get involved in medical practice with our
(20:01):
colleagues in AA.
We need to be working a spiritual program, not a medical program, not a psychological
program.
And that's different.
Yeah.
Bernard, you got anything on that?
I don't think so.
I also have taken Zoloft for many years.
When it was started, I was in treatment and in deep distress.
(20:22):
And I have simply continued it since that time.
And it has always seemed that I am in a reasonable state and in a reasonable state of mind.
I've forgotten to take it occasionally, and I can't tell when that happens.
But I've never really tried to get off of it because my mood seems to be fine and I
don't see a reason to get off of it.
(20:44):
I think probably I was born with a level of Zoloft that's below what I needed.
And by enhancing that a little bit, it brings me toward more normal.
And so I just stay with that.
And I think that's OK.
I think that's within the realm of what we need to do to be clean and sober.
(21:08):
I think I'm clean and sober in the ways that are important.
And some of the things we're discussing are theoretical, and we're pulling them out and
talking about them, which really important is, are we getting better?
Is our emotional sobriety getting better?
Are we developing a relationship with a higher power as time goes on in the program?
(21:32):
And if so, then what we're doing is working.
But I think we also know lots of things that don't work for that, that we can rule out.
We can say we've watched this and this one doesn't work.
It can't be taken Zoloft, I mean, Lortad, and get to good recovery.
It just doesn't work.
(21:53):
We've seen it too many times.
We've seen people try it too many times, and it doesn't work.
And that's because of the drug.
You have to take more of that drug to get the same effect.
And you have to take more the second day and more the third day.
And by the tenth day, you're taking an amount that is detrimental to your psychic level of living.
(22:14):
You're taking too much of it to get along.
And so then you have a problem.
So I think we've seen drugs that do that, and we try to stay away from those.
And I think what we're doing here maybe is maybe naming the things that are on the outskirts that are close to those
and have been mentioned.
Well, this is kind of like Lortad, but not really so.
(22:37):
Some of the things we're talking about, for instance, San Axe, may have a place in the use,
but it ought to be in a specific time.
It ought to be when other things have been tried and they haven't worked.
There's too many things that do work to go to the things immediately that don't work.
You know, it reminded me of something.
I don't know if you remember, Merlin, but years ago, there was a guy on the program.
(22:58):
He'd had lots of years.
He said he did anyway.
He was kind of a big guy.
He talked a lot.
And I was close to him.
I was kind of using me as a sponsor.
You called me up, Merlin, and you said, this guy's, he's gone manic high.
He's, I mean, something's going on with this guy.
And they had just put him on Pristique.
I knew the psychiatrist that did it.
(23:19):
And he was grandiose.
And he shot himself a couple of weeks later.
Okay.
So these are great drugs when they're used and prescribed properly.
And there's the right person taking it.
And when it's not, it can be just disastrous, you know.
So I asked me a doctor involved that knows.
(23:40):
The one thing I'd like to say about Zoloft, which is a category of the SSRIs and the antidepressants,
and there are quite a few new antidepressants that work through slightly different mechanisms.
I was just sitting here thinking, have I ever had a patient who increased their dose of Zoloft on their own?
(24:03):
And I can't recall anybody.
Usually it require, it usually, in examining them, it's pretty clear that their dose is too low
to really impact the depression that they have or the anxiety that they have.
And when recommended that the dose increase, they tend to resist it.
I quite frankly never had that situation with a benzodiazepine or a opioid in a person who has a tendency toward addiction.
(24:36):
That usually were in the bar of the doors that they're often running.
Well, would any of you guys take exception to what I said when I said this is a lot of what is said in AA today
is shaming to some people as far as the mood over in drugs and what you're not sober if you're doing.
(25:01):
Rusty, I don't hear a lot of it.
Yeah, I don't hear that.
It used to be, but I don't hear a lot of it.
I guess I hear it when people that are-
Cannabis is what I hear about most.
Cannabis is what's invaded-
What did I say? I thought marijuana.
No, I think you just said-
Oh, yeah, I'm sorry. That's what I meant. I'm sorry.
So I would say, yeah, it is the big topic because I sponsor a bunch of guys,
(25:26):
and probably 20% of them use cannabis regularly.
Now, the ones that I keep, are more using it as prescribed.
And there's a reason and it's working for them. They're pretty sober.
The sober as they are in their path, okay? I mean, they're not spiritual giants, but they're working it.
They're working it and it's not getting in the way of it.
(25:48):
The ones that were just using it just like recreation, I just said, well, I'm probably not your right guy.
I have that same experience.
Many of the people I sponsor, again, it's probably in the 20%, are using marijuana.
Some are using it very specifically to treat a substance or a symptom.
(26:13):
And I've come to the realization, and this is probably heretical,
but I don't see marijuana a whole lot different than Tylenol.
It's as safe as Tylenol, maybe even safer than Tylenol.
It is addicting and about the usual number of people will become, 10%, will become a marijuana substance use disorder.
(26:40):
And you can recognize those people, they're smoking it or chewing it or doing whatever.
They're taking it constantly, every day, several times a day.
Well, that's not treatment. That's eating, overeating, but it's overeating a plant.
So anyway, and it is affecting the brain.
(27:02):
And those people I really do urge to practice the recovery program for more marijuana.
Those that are taking occasionally for sleep, whether it's been prescribed or not, I say, well, you can buy Nike.
Well, it's probably pretty much like Nike.
Well, the fact that it's an illegal drug is a sad day in American legislation.
(27:33):
Well, they're fixing that, hopefully.
But you know, the data is in that, you know, if you have a developing brain before 25,
it's probably not a good idea just to use cannabis because it stops the routing that you're trying to link up.
It stops it. And so after 25, it's already linked up as it's going to get.
(27:57):
When we hear people say that marijuana is a gateway drug.
Now, from working at the at the home where I worked and had 25 boys that were there for substance abuse,
every one of them had started out on marijuana.
I believe it's a gateway drug.
It is a gateway drug because it's so easy to get.
And it changes. It's the easiest drug to get.
(28:20):
It's harder to get nicotine today.
I think it's a gateway drug and I know it is addictive in a certain percentage of people.
And, you know, as we legalize this stuff, which is going to be legal in all states here pretty soon, most likely,
that it's going to be a huge societal problem.
It's going to be alcohol. It's going to be identical to alcohol.
(28:41):
People will be crashing their cars.
You can't use the good thing about marijuana is as a police woman told me, I can always tell the drunk they're driving too fast and swerving.
I can tell the person who's high on marijuana because they're going 10 to 10 miles an hour under the speed limit, hugging the curb.
(29:02):
Is there a state of mind that is effective to work the steps of a 12 step program?
In other words, is there an ideal state of mind?
I think so.
I do too.
You can't have alcohol around and be drinking and under the influence of alcohol, which would be what I would call drunk.
(29:23):
It's really hard to be drunk and work the program.
Now people do work pieces of it and the seeds get planted and it ultimately works.
I think the same is going to be true of the marijuana addict.
They're not going to be able to, they're just not clear headed.
The best state of mind, I think, to work the steps is to have the gift of desperation that will bless you into willingness to be willing to listen and do things you never would have done before.
(29:53):
And that seems to me to be what kickstarts people into working the programs.
Nobody wants to work the program because they feel good.
And nobody wants to work it when they're 18.
Exactly.
Exactly.
You know, if you're 18 you just don't fall into that group that you just described.
Bingo.
Have we dealt with the issue of people judging, criticizing, and harming people by telling them they are not sober?
(30:23):
Well, let me say what I took away from what I'm taking away today, and this has really been good for me.
As far as, first of all, the marijuana, if you're at your doctor and got a diagnosis for something and the doctor says, I'm going to put you on so much of this every day, and he walks out of there and he stays with it.
(30:48):
He's not drinking.
He's not doing some other mood aldrin.
I hate to even say mood aldrin drug anymore now, that this guy is functioning and can work the program and is sober.
Yes.
I agree.
Yes.
And when you hear somebody in the program who, through ignorance, is saying to that person, you shouldn't take your Zoloft, then we have an obligation to say, you're not qualified to say that.
(31:18):
You're really not qualified.
It's okay. I understand you have an opinion.
Keep it to yourself.
You're going to cause harm out there.
What are you going to do with the guy with the marijuana though?
Because most people are going to say that about the marijuana.
Yeah, they are.
Most people are going to say, you're not sober.
You're not cleaning sober.
If you're smoking pot, you're not cleaning sober.
(31:39):
Exactly.
Yeah.
I'd say the same thing.
It's just going to change.
I'd say the same thing.
You're not qualified to make that determination.
The person who's saying that is probably somebody who grew up enjoying the illegality and high of marijuana and is putting, projecting that onto the individual.
They're also addicts and therefore they well have been addicted to marijuana at some point.
(32:05):
I smoked marijuana from the time I was about 15 until I just decided it wasn't any fun for me. I was doing way better drugs. Alcohol and cocaine were way better.
Marijuana didn't touch my anxiety or my need.
I was never addicted to it.
It didn't do what I wanted it to do.
(32:26):
Neither did LSD.
All the other things I tried, they had their path, their way.
They went away.
The only two things that stuck with me, the things I know, that's alcohol and cocaine, those things to me, I'm addicted to those things, always will be.
But pot, I have no desire to smoke it.
And if I did, I wouldn't feel the need to smoke it again.
(32:51):
Just never got that addiction thing started with me.
So I think pot is just, it's here to stay, man.
Oh, it's here to stay.
It is here to stay.
But I think that's a real valid question that Merlin just asked.
And I don't know that it's going to go away.
It's not going to go away.
And it's just something, I like what you said when you tell somebody that he's just, he's going to smoke and he's going to smoke what he wants to and when he wants to.
(33:20):
You might fit better with somebody else.
How many guys have come to you and said, well, I've had recently some guys, and they always say, when I spent, I was doing a practice session.
And they'd say, you know, this is how I drink.
You think I have a drinking problem?
I go, I have no idea.
Do you think you have a drinking problem?
They go, I don't know.
That's why I'm asking you.
I go, well, I'm not an expert.
I mean, you're an expert on yourself.
(33:42):
Most people don't come in and ask me.
Well, they have a drinking problem or not.
So, I mean, that's the first thing you might want to look at.
And they come back and they come back and they keep asking it.
And eventually, I'll take them to a meeting.
There's one who's a good friend of mine.
He was a therapist.
And I said, let's go to a meeting.
And he looked at me in the meeting and he goes, I'm an alcoholic.
I guess I really am.
Okay?
(34:03):
So, we don't, none of us here can say somebody else is an alcoholic.
We can say you drink like one.
You look like one.
You walk like one.
Yeah, man, we can't.
We're not, I'm not, no word in my training is to say I'm qualified to tell you you're alcohol.
Well, and I think I had some preconceived notions coming into this today.
(34:25):
And my preconceived notion was that we would be able to say, well, a guy's clean and sober if.
And what I see is, or what I'm hearing is that it's a step by step or individual by individual
whether this guy's going to, is going to be clean and sober.
(34:46):
Let me bring one other thing up before we end.
Oh, yeah, I can go on.
So, let's say somebody comes in and they're drinking, you know, a handle every couple of days.
A vodka, okay.
And they're really, they're drunk, no doubt about it, they're drunk.
And they detox.
And then they gain 30 pounds because they're eating everything in sight.
(35:08):
And they're having affairs on their wife, which they didn't used to have.
And so, they're substituting, instead of a spiritual program,
they're substituting other addictions that change how you are.
Are they sober?
Only in the AA room.
Right.
They're dry.
They're pretty dry.
They have active addictions going on.
But they can pick up their chip.
(35:29):
Yes, they can.
And they can legally pick up their chip.
Yes.
And they can feel good about picking up their chip.
The question is, what happens to them over a year?
What happens over a year?
Do they quit having affairs?
Do they?
They work on a spiritual program.
That's right.
Which will take care of the other stuff eventually.
Maybe.
Yeah.
Some people start off with what you're talking about, where they are,
(35:53):
they immediately replace that obsession with another.
And some people don't have that much of that and are further along the line when they come in.
But I think you've got to give them room to start getting better in all the different areas.
That's one of the biggest things that I see is that for guys like us that's been around for a long time,
(36:14):
it took me years to finally get to a point that some of those character defects I was willing to give up.
Exactly.
Exactly.
And I think that's what...
If we had to be sober to be clean and sober,
I mean if we had to be free of using addictions, using outside women and stuff like that,
(36:36):
you and me wouldn't have been sober for half of the time that we're sober.
That's right.
And that doesn't make sense.
I think it makes more sense to say that we're sober, but we're improving, we're getting better.
Working the program.
So if you were to graph this, you'd see that if they're actually working the program,
they have all these other addictions going on,
the farther they move into the spiritual part of the program, getting close to God,
(37:00):
which is the purpose of...they say it in the book.
The purpose of this book is to get you in touch with God.
They'll do for you what you can't do for yourself.
Okay, sorry, but that's the deal.
And so as you're doing that, you'll see the addictions start to drop off.
The addictions drop off.
That's right.
You don't need them.
But that person working the program is basically as sober he is in the moment.
(37:26):
In the moment.
Dan, any last words for us?
It's been a terrific discussion.
One last word for us.
No, I think Aaron on the side of giving the people the possibility that they are sober is of benefit.
I think that it's of benefit to tell them that's really great that you haven't had anything to drink in two weeks.
(37:48):
I'm proud of you for that without having to discuss anything else.
And so I think we ought to accept that we're doing that for people and do that for them to start with.
When they're two years into the program and are still acting that way, then maybe somebody needs their sponsor needs to say something to them.
But I think initially the thing we can do to help them is say, wow, you're working the program.
(38:14):
You're two weeks sober.
Yeah.
Guys, I want to end the people that are listening.
I hope we haven't confused anybody.
I know that I'm going to go away from this.
And I love this.
This is why I keep coming to Alcoholics Anonymous.
(38:36):
I'm 82 and I'm still learning.
And I love that.
And AA is that's what it's been for me.
That's what AA has done for me.
And to have this where I can look at it something with another point of view, there's a freedom in it.
I just want to say this is my experience that having been around the program and working the steps for a long time, the last thing, the last character defect that I see leaving me and I see it is the judgmentalness.
(39:09):
Yes.
That I can be judgmental towards others.
I see people in there and I go, well, that son of a bitch.
And then I just go, stop my job, man.
My job is love and compassionate and tolerant.
That's my job.
Okay.
And help them work the steps if they want to work the steps.
Not to be a judgmental asshole.
That's not sober.
(39:32):
I like what you just said because in my Ubering, I'm driving along, my next ride pops up.
I never pay attention.
I just hit accept.
I drop off my current passenger and I see where I'm going to pick somebody up.
And I see what their name is.
And I find myself judging because of where they live or how their name is spelled.
(40:00):
And then I pick that person up and I realize, what a jerk.
This is not the person you projected this passenger to be.
And it's this several years that I've been doing this has taught me to stop judging the boat by its cover, if you will.
(40:21):
And wait until you get there and the person's in your car and you've had this wonderful conversation.
Still don't judge, but don't prejudge.
And that's been really delightful.
And I think that comes as a part of emotional and working the steps.
(40:42):
Because before I was judging everyone about everything before it didn't matter.
I could have been wrong and I was still going to judge you.
Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.
The Creator judges maybe, but certainly not us.
We're not authorized to do that.
What a nice hour spent.
(41:04):
Very nice.
(41:34):
Any views, thoughts, or opinions expressed by an individual in this venue are solely that of the individual and do not reflect the views, policies, or position of any specific recovery-based entity or organization.
Morning, everybody. This is Rusty and I'm an alcoholic.
(00:04):
And I'm Tim and I'm an alcoholic and this is Children of Chaos.
This morning I have got three of my close friends in AA.
I've known these guys for many years and I really have a lot of respect for each one of them.
We are going to talk about what does it mean to be clean and sober if there is such a thing.
(00:25):
And we talked about this a couple of weeks ago and it brought up more questions than it did answers.
So today we are going to start out.
First of all, I'd like to talk about the difference between Zoloft and Xanax.
And the reason I use that is that when I came in in 1983, if I was on a bay, which is just about the same thing as Xanax,
(00:54):
and I asked my sponsor at that time, I said, well, what does it mean to be clean and sober?
And I said, because I've been on Xanax for 18 years.
And then he asked me if I took them prescribed and I said, I just take them whenever I want to take them when I need them.
And he said, well, you're not, you're not, you're not clean and sober.
(01:16):
And so I went off the volume immediately and I didn't titrate down.
I didn't do any of that. And it got pretty crazy for me.
So for me, and I know there's a lot of shame that's carried if you're carried around with people that they'll come into meetings and they'll be sober from alcohol.
(01:42):
But they're still doing some other mood altering drug.
And what we're going to talk about today is what does it mean to be sober?
Does anyone want to start? Well, you know, there's two words that come to mind, dry versus sober.
So when I first got in in 90 in California, they said you stay dry by not drinking.
(02:06):
You get sober by working the steps and changing your lifestyle.
So there's a distinction between being dry and being sober.
So I just like to make sure we have that that's you know, there are people I know that have been dry for a long time and they're nothing close to being sober.
We all know people like that. The restless herbal discontent, the jump down people's throats.
(02:29):
They're judgmental. They have nothing about the program that is part of their lifestyle.
But they're not ingesting alcohol anymore.
They almost wish they would. You just like go have a drink for God's sake.
OK, we know people like that. They sometimes close meetings down because people don't want to go there anymore.
So I'd like to just say if we're talking about dry, which is no alcohol,
(02:51):
or sober, which is somebody that's actually working the steps and changing their relationship with God, which is what the program is all about.
And I agree with Jonathan. And it's really an important distinction of being dry.
That is not ingesting a alcohol, a drug, any drug that alters the personality.
(03:13):
And that's an important distinction. And that is dry.
I remember I looked up and commented on this in the last podcast.
What was the definition of sober? And it fundamentally is a non-useful definition that basically says not drunk.
And that is actually a good explanation for the dry drunk, because they aren't sober,
(03:40):
because they are still behaving like a drunk or like they have an altered personality.
And those are colloquial within AA. And I think we ought to keep them colloquial within AA.
When we have a conversation with people who aren't part of the 12-step recovery community,
(04:01):
these distinctions are somewhat meaningless.
Well, you just went a long way to defining it, okay, that what we refer to as a dry drunk.
And everybody here knows a dry drunk, you kind of want to make the sign of the cross, like, oh my God, these are dry drunk.
You don't want to hang out with this guy. He's like being with a drunk, but he's not. He's not drunk.
(04:22):
Drunk can be happy too sometimes.
So, Jonathan, is there any TSM 5 characteristic that you would fit the dry, what we call a dry drunk,
in terms of either a personality disorder or an actual mental illness?
Heck, you could probably pick three or four.
And what would you pick?
Well, first off, the narcissism is huge in there, okay?
(04:46):
Right.
It's all about me, self-centeredness.
Yes.
That's the hallmark. It's they'll turn every conversation into me.
Then borderline, okay, which is if you cross me, I've got you on my list and you can't get off it.
And I'm dangerous.
And there's several of them.
And some of it could be anxiety manifestations and all kinds of other...
(05:10):
Lots of phobias.
Lots of phobias, you know.
So that's a person who, a dry drunk is somebody who appears to have a personality disorder
or something is not working well in their personality.
Let's leave it at that.
Because it isn't really addressed in the DSM 5 as a disease.
(05:31):
So what happens when we say someone is not... they don't have emotional sobriety?
Have we seen the same thing there?
Yeah.
I am too.
But there's gradients of that, of course.
I'm sorry?
There are gradients of that.
Oh yeah, there's degrees of that.
So how much of us have real, true emotional sobriety?
(05:53):
Exactly.
You know, none of us are enlightened people.
Right.
So we're still working on it.
You know, it says we are not saints.
I've got a lot of time without using any alcohol.
But I sure don't have that same amount of time with emotional sobriety.
That's what the steps can do for me because each time...
I mean, I've got a lot more emotional sobriety than I had five years ago.
(06:18):
You know, I think we need to look at the context of what we're talking about though.
Because somebody that just comes into the program and quits drinking and quits using drugs
and yet uses a lot of their old behavior, you would say they do not have emotional sobriety.
You would say they weren't sober from all standpoints and yet they qualify for getting
(06:41):
chips and for being in the program.
So in the groups we're in, there are people that don't have emotional sobriety because
of where they are in the road and yet are working the program and doing what they're
supposed to be doing.
To the best of their ability.
Yes.
That's a really good point.
It is.
(07:02):
And really what they're getting is they're acknowledging dry time.
The level of their emotional sobriety is...
None of us are the judge of that.
Quite frankly, if you look at the natural history of this, if there are three months,
dry is a real goal.
There is not much emotional sobriety in that goal.
If you're a year, you might be able to begin working on not being just dry and working
(07:29):
on being the way AA defines sober because your behaviors are still acting like a drunk
person or a wood-altered person.
And when you add in that people come into the program at different levels.
I'm not saying some of us are dead here sicker than others.
(07:50):
Absolutely.
And that's the truth.
That's the truth.
I mean, really I was one that was sicker than others.
Me too.
I really was.
And who's to say where during that year you should have so much emotional sobriety or
you might not have any at all.
You might still go off at the least happening.
And we see people like that in the program that continue to have onset of problems and
(08:15):
yet aren't drinking.
And who's to say where they should get better?
I think we're the observers.
We're talking about this.
But it really depends on the person and whether they're making an attempt to have an emotional
sobriety.
Thank you.
Yes.
That's right.
And Gil used to, Jonathan and I had a sponsor.
(08:37):
His name was Gil.
And Gil would always say, what is your motive?
Check your motive.
Check your motive.
Check your motive.
And I want to go back to the Xanax for a minute because I work with a lot of people and doctors
who prescribe a lot of Xanax.
And if someone, this is where I think it gets so the fine line is that what if that person
(08:59):
is taking that Xanax just as it is prescribed because their doctor said this is what you
need to be on.
And that happens a lot.
So what about them?
In the last conversation, I think I addressed that issue.
And the issue is if the doctor prescribed it for a clear cut diagnosis, which is usually
(09:24):
going to be one of the anxiety disorders, and it's working for that individual, it is
going to have a side effect.
And that side effect is going to be a very high risk of dependency, meaning the individual
is going to need to take it as prescribed and has a very high risk, very high risk of
(09:45):
using it when they need it, like you used your Valium.
And that's where you get into trouble because it now creates, sets off the circuit of craving
and dependency.
And suddenly the anxiety that comes from not having this Xanax may get more, even higher
(10:06):
magnitude than the anxiety before the Xanax.
So it's a very difficult drug to use.
Now, that doesn't mean it doesn't have a place.
It does have a place.
And some people will function.
And the only reason we doctors prescribe medications is to cure something or to help people function
(10:27):
in the face of disabilities.
And here there's an emotional disability in the case of these anxiety disorders.
So I think it's not a good idea for people without any medical background to be telling
people about the drugs that have been prescribed for them, regardless of what the drugs are.
(10:50):
As I said in the last broadcast, if I feel somebody is really in trouble with the drug,
I will recommend that they get another opinion just simply because there are lots of ways
of dealing with things.
Third thing I've learned is that the spiritual program, and we haven't even used that word
(11:12):
yet, the spiritual program of the 12 steps, it's not a psychological program, guys.
It's a spiritual program.
And that becomes really, really very important.
The spiritual program has relieved many people's anxiety so they can function very well without
the drug.
Yeah, that's a great point.
(11:34):
My primary physician, who I really respect, he prescribes Benzos.
And he's very careful because what will happen with Benzo is the person will start to use
double the dose.
So they'll get one milligram and then they'll find out they need two milligrams.
That will trigger him and he'll call me up and say, I have this guy, you think you might
(11:55):
be able to work with him on teaching a little meditation or something?
I think he needs to come up with something else.
I've got one right now that he's referred to me.
So he's aware of it now that if you get somebody who's got that anxiety disorder and they're
frozen, they're stuck, sometimes a Benzo is what's going to get them unstuck so we can
make the appointment.
(12:16):
I remember when I was doing the therapy training and I was so down on drugs and I said no.
And those therapists there said, are you kidding me?
Half my patients wouldn't show up.
They're stuck in their house.
We need that.
And I get it.
That's the issue, Tim, that you mentioned before we started the podcast, that the mind
(12:37):
has to be clear to get the treatment.
What Jonathan just told us about was the other way around.
The treatment, the drug is having an effect, but the patient is already getting in trouble
with the drug.
Let's move to something else.
And that's where the spiritual programs, the meditation programs, the working the 12 steps
(12:59):
comes in.
You've got to have that balance.
You've got to be ready to be able to do the 12 steps.
And as Jonathan said, they're so anxious they won't leave the house to even go to a meeting.
So they're not going to be working the 12 steps.
If they're disabled by the anxiety.
It is disabling.
(13:20):
Therefore, you may need a drug to enable getting out of the house in face of the anxiety.
So we said that in the last two episodes, that if somebody is taking, for example, anti-depressants
or antipsychotics, please, please, please, please do not stop taking those without your
(13:47):
doctor's advice.
And so how does that play into that situation?
And those are two different drug categories.
You know, SSRS, antipsychotics is a definite big hard stop.
Don't say anything that has to be done by your psychiatrist, most likely your psychiatrist,
not your primary doctor who may not be trained in how to use those drugs because they're
(14:10):
powerful, man.
See, I'm the way person asking the question.
That's what.
Don't stop.
Don't stop.
Don't stop.
It's not the people that, you know, listen here.
Most of them aren't medically oriented.
But the distinction between those three is so important.
The benzos or the anti-anxiety are complicated because alcohol itself behaves like a benzo
(14:39):
and changes the brain chemistry around anxiety.
And as all of us in this room know, when we couldn't, when we needed alcohol and couldn't
get it, what did we have?
Anxiety.
And so it's a part of the disease of the alcoholism.
So that's one really important thing.
(15:00):
And we've had a good discussion on it.
But for goodness sake, the antidepressants and the antipsychotics are very different.
Don't lump them together with the benzos.
And because they are, they're not, they're a little more focused on where they work in
the brain and the symptoms that they address.
(15:22):
They all might address anxiety as well.
In fact, antidepressants and even some antipsychotics are used by psychiatrists to treat anxiety
if there are other things associated with it.
I got a question for you.
It's just my experience that people that have anxiety disorder are not likely to suicide.
(15:45):
That there's other things that make it much more likely to suicide.
And so, you know, I think that's a good distinction.
There's a lot of people walking around with anxiety disorder and they are not close to
taking their lives.
But if you are being treated for some other personality defect with a conipin or one of
those things, you're likely to suicide if you're not treated.
(16:08):
The issue with, you're exactly right, that anxiety, well, of the SPACA, people with any
psychiatric disorder can suicide.
That's the first thing.
Secondly, obviously suicide is a critical part of depression and some of the personality
disorders, particularly Porter-Lyne personality disorder.
(16:30):
You're right.
It's not as common.
What's problematic is that the benzodiazepines with an opioid can stop your breathing.
Yeah, you'll die.
And so you can overdose on an opioid and die.
And so if you're taking, so the anxiety people who die in a suicidal opinion could be an
(16:51):
accident, could be an overdose, could be a suicide.
I want to interject something, when I was 10 years sober and I had not taken any benzos,
not drinking, I was what I would call back to clean and sober.
And I went through a really tough relationship and I came out on the other side of that because
(17:16):
I have anxiety, high anxiety.
And so when I went to my doctor about it and my doctor's known me all those years, he knew
that I'm, he knows that I'm an alcoholic addict, but I needed something to change my mood,
to get me out of that deep depression I was in.
(17:37):
So what he started me on was Zoloft.
And Zoloft works for two things, essentially it works on depression and anxiety.
Here's the question, I've tried to go off of them several times.
And I used to think if I worked the steps long enough, if I just did this, then it would all go away.
(18:01):
Okay, I'm diabetic, as well as my friend is diabetic.
I can't think myself out of it, okay?
I'm always going to need some form of insulin, some form of a medication that's going to allow
myself to accept the sugars.
So it's not a matter of me retraining myself, it's a matter of I'm going to be dependent.
(18:26):
I'm okay.
I resisted it for a long time, but the older I get the more I realize that's just how I am.
That's how the Creator made me.
But you tried.
I tried over and over again.
That's the thing.
I resisted it.
My intent was not to change the way I felt in a depressive mood.
(18:47):
I've always looked at it like the Zoloft brought my level of serotonin up to match.
And when I'm faithful about taking my medication, I do really alright.
And I've gone off of it several times because of what I was taught in the program.
(19:11):
So that's why I think that this is really an important subject for me.
And I know I've tried everything that was in my power to do something with that.
I think Jonathan's point about anxiety disorders, major depression, bipolar disease, our biochemical
(19:32):
abnormalities of the body.
And they have normal waxes and wanes, meaning they get worse and get better on a cycle that
we don't quite understand.
Stress will make them worse, no question.
By the way, same thing with diabetes.
Stress will make it worse.
Same with diabetes.
So that's why it's so difficult that we not get involved in medical practice with our
(20:01):
colleagues in AA.
We need to be working a spiritual program, not a medical program, not a psychological
program.
And that's different.
Yeah.
Bernard, you got anything on that?
I don't think so.
I also have taken Zoloft for many years.
When it was started, I was in treatment and in deep distress.
(20:22):
And I have simply continued it since that time.
And it has always seemed that I am in a reasonable state and in a reasonable state of mind.
I've forgotten to take it occasionally, and I can't tell when that happens.
But I've never really tried to get off of it because my mood seems to be fine and I
don't see a reason to get off of it.
(20:44):
I think probably I was born with a level of Zoloft that's below what I needed.
And by enhancing that a little bit, it brings me toward more normal.
And so I just stay with that.
And I think that's OK.
I think that's within the realm of what we need to do to be clean and sober.
(21:08):
I think I'm clean and sober in the ways that are important.
And some of the things we're discussing are theoretical, and we're pulling them out and
talking about them, which really important is, are we getting better?
Is our emotional sobriety getting better?
Are we developing a relationship with a higher power as time goes on in the program?
(21:32):
And if so, then what we're doing is working.
But I think we also know lots of things that don't work for that, that we can rule out.
We can say we've watched this and this one doesn't work.
It can't be taken Zoloft, I mean, Lortad, and get to good recovery.
It just doesn't work.
(21:53):
We've seen it too many times.
We've seen people try it too many times, and it doesn't work.
And that's because of the drug.
You have to take more of that drug to get the same effect.
And you have to take more the second day and more the third day.
And by the tenth day, you're taking an amount that is detrimental to your psychic level of living.
(22:14):
You're taking too much of it to get along.
And so then you have a problem.
So I think we've seen drugs that do that, and we try to stay away from those.
And I think what we're doing here maybe is maybe naming the things that are on the outskirts that are close to those
and have been mentioned.
Well, this is kind of like Lortad, but not really so.
(22:37):
Some of the things we're talking about, for instance, San Axe, may have a place in the use,
but it ought to be in a specific time.
It ought to be when other things have been tried and they haven't worked.
There's too many things that do work to go to the things immediately that don't work.
You know, it reminded me of something.
I don't know if you remember, Merlin, but years ago, there was a guy on the program.
(22:58):
He'd had lots of years.
He said he did anyway.
He was kind of a big guy.
He talked a lot.
And I was close to him.
I was kind of using me as a sponsor.
You called me up, Merlin, and you said, this guy's, he's gone manic high.
He's, I mean, something's going on with this guy.
And they had just put him on Pristique.
I knew the psychiatrist that did it.
(23:19):
And he was grandiose.
And he shot himself a couple of weeks later.
Okay.
So these are great drugs when they're used and prescribed properly.
And there's the right person taking it.
And when it's not, it can be just disastrous, you know.
So I asked me a doctor involved that knows.
(23:40):
The one thing I'd like to say about Zoloft, which is a category of the SSRIs and the antidepressants,
and there are quite a few new antidepressants that work through slightly different mechanisms.
I was just sitting here thinking, have I ever had a patient who increased their dose of Zoloft on their own?
(24:03):
And I can't recall anybody.
Usually it require, it usually, in examining them, it's pretty clear that their dose is too low
to really impact the depression that they have or the anxiety that they have.
And when recommended that the dose increase, they tend to resist it.
I quite frankly never had that situation with a benzodiazepine or a opioid in a person who has a tendency toward addiction.
(24:36):
That usually were in the bar of the doors that they're often running.
Well, would any of you guys take exception to what I said when I said this is a lot of what is said in AA today
is shaming to some people as far as the mood over in drugs and what you're not sober if you're doing.
(25:01):
Rusty, I don't hear a lot of it.
Yeah, I don't hear that.
It used to be, but I don't hear a lot of it.
I guess I hear it when people that are-
Cannabis is what I hear about most.
Cannabis is what's invaded-
What did I say? I thought marijuana.
No, I think you just said-
Oh, yeah, I'm sorry. That's what I meant. I'm sorry.
So I would say, yeah, it is the big topic because I sponsor a bunch of guys,
(25:26):
and probably 20% of them use cannabis regularly.
Now, the ones that I keep, are more using it as prescribed.
And there's a reason and it's working for them. They're pretty sober.
The sober as they are in their path, okay? I mean, they're not spiritual giants, but they're working it.
They're working it and it's not getting in the way of it.
(25:48):
The ones that were just using it just like recreation, I just said, well, I'm probably not your right guy.
I have that same experience.
Many of the people I sponsor, again, it's probably in the 20%, are using marijuana.
Some are using it very specifically to treat a substance or a symptom.
(26:13):
And I've come to the realization, and this is probably heretical,
but I don't see marijuana a whole lot different than Tylenol.
It's as safe as Tylenol, maybe even safer than Tylenol.
It is addicting and about the usual number of people will become, 10%, will become a marijuana substance use disorder.
(26:40):
And you can recognize those people, they're smoking it or chewing it or doing whatever.
They're taking it constantly, every day, several times a day.
Well, that's not treatment. That's eating, overeating, but it's overeating a plant.
So anyway, and it is affecting the brain.
(27:02):
And those people I really do urge to practice the recovery program for more marijuana.
Those that are taking occasionally for sleep, whether it's been prescribed or not, I say, well, you can buy Nike.
Well, it's probably pretty much like Nike.
Well, the fact that it's an illegal drug is a sad day in American legislation.
(27:33):
Well, they're fixing that, hopefully.
But you know, the data is in that, you know, if you have a developing brain before 25,
it's probably not a good idea just to use cannabis because it stops the routing that you're trying to link up.
It stops it. And so after 25, it's already linked up as it's going to get.
(27:57):
When we hear people say that marijuana is a gateway drug.
Now, from working at the at the home where I worked and had 25 boys that were there for substance abuse,
every one of them had started out on marijuana.
I believe it's a gateway drug.
It is a gateway drug because it's so easy to get.
And it changes. It's the easiest drug to get.
(28:20):
It's harder to get nicotine today.
I think it's a gateway drug and I know it is addictive in a certain percentage of people.
And, you know, as we legalize this stuff, which is going to be legal in all states here pretty soon, most likely,
that it's going to be a huge societal problem.
It's going to be alcohol. It's going to be identical to alcohol.
(28:41):
People will be crashing their cars.
You can't use the good thing about marijuana is as a police woman told me, I can always tell the drunk they're driving too fast and swerving.
I can tell the person who's high on marijuana because they're going 10 to 10 miles an hour under the speed limit, hugging the curb.
(29:02):
Is there a state of mind that is effective to work the steps of a 12 step program?
In other words, is there an ideal state of mind?
I think so.
I do too.
You can't have alcohol around and be drinking and under the influence of alcohol, which would be what I would call drunk.
(29:23):
It's really hard to be drunk and work the program.
Now people do work pieces of it and the seeds get planted and it ultimately works.
I think the same is going to be true of the marijuana addict.
They're not going to be able to, they're just not clear headed.
The best state of mind, I think, to work the steps is to have the gift of desperation that will bless you into willingness to be willing to listen and do things you never would have done before.
(29:53):
And that seems to me to be what kickstarts people into working the programs.
Nobody wants to work the program because they feel good.
And nobody wants to work it when they're 18.
Exactly.
Exactly.
You know, if you're 18 you just don't fall into that group that you just described.
Bingo.
Have we dealt with the issue of people judging, criticizing, and harming people by telling them they are not sober?
(30:23):
Well, let me say what I took away from what I'm taking away today, and this has really been good for me.
As far as, first of all, the marijuana, if you're at your doctor and got a diagnosis for something and the doctor says, I'm going to put you on so much of this every day, and he walks out of there and he stays with it.
(30:48):
He's not drinking.
He's not doing some other mood aldrin.
I hate to even say mood aldrin drug anymore now, that this guy is functioning and can work the program and is sober.
Yes.
I agree.
Yes.
And when you hear somebody in the program who, through ignorance, is saying to that person, you shouldn't take your Zoloft, then we have an obligation to say, you're not qualified to say that.
(31:18):
You're really not qualified.
It's okay. I understand you have an opinion.
Keep it to yourself.
You're going to cause harm out there.
What are you going to do with the guy with the marijuana though?
Because most people are going to say that about the marijuana.
Yeah, they are.
Most people are going to say, you're not sober.
You're not cleaning sober.
If you're smoking pot, you're not cleaning sober.
(31:39):
Exactly.
Yeah.
I'd say the same thing.
It's just going to change.
I'd say the same thing.
You're not qualified to make that determination.
The person who's saying that is probably somebody who grew up enjoying the illegality and high of marijuana and is putting, projecting that onto the individual.
They're also addicts and therefore they well have been addicted to marijuana at some point.
(32:05):
I smoked marijuana from the time I was about 15 until I just decided it wasn't any fun for me. I was doing way better drugs. Alcohol and cocaine were way better.
Marijuana didn't touch my anxiety or my need.
I was never addicted to it.
It didn't do what I wanted it to do.
(32:26):
Neither did LSD.
All the other things I tried, they had their path, their way.
They went away.
The only two things that stuck with me, the things I know, that's alcohol and cocaine, those things to me, I'm addicted to those things, always will be.
But pot, I have no desire to smoke it.
And if I did, I wouldn't feel the need to smoke it again.
(32:51):
Just never got that addiction thing started with me.
So I think pot is just, it's here to stay, man.
Oh, it's here to stay.
It is here to stay.
But I think that's a real valid question that Merlin just asked.
And I don't know that it's going to go away.
It's not going to go away.
And it's just something, I like what you said when you tell somebody that he's just, he's going to smoke and he's going to smoke what he wants to and when he wants to.
(33:20):
You might fit better with somebody else.
How many guys have come to you and said, well, I've had recently some guys, and they always say, when I spent, I was doing a practice session.
And they'd say, you know, this is how I drink.
You think I have a drinking problem?
I go, I have no idea.
Do you think you have a drinking problem?
They go, I don't know.
That's why I'm asking you.
I go, well, I'm not an expert.
I mean, you're an expert on yourself.
(33:42):
Most people don't come in and ask me.
Well, they have a drinking problem or not.
So, I mean, that's the first thing you might want to look at.
And they come back and they come back and they keep asking it.
And eventually, I'll take them to a meeting.
There's one who's a good friend of mine.
He was a therapist.
And I said, let's go to a meeting.
And he looked at me in the meeting and he goes, I'm an alcoholic.
I guess I really am.
Okay?
(34:03):
So, we don't, none of us here can say somebody else is an alcoholic.
We can say you drink like one.
You look like one.
You walk like one.
Yeah, man, we can't.
We're not, I'm not, no word in my training is to say I'm qualified to tell you you're alcohol.
Well, and I think I had some preconceived notions coming into this today.
(34:25):
And my preconceived notion was that we would be able to say, well, a guy's clean and sober if.
And what I see is, or what I'm hearing is that it's a step by step or individual by individual
whether this guy's going to, is going to be clean and sober.
(34:46):
Let me bring one other thing up before we end.
Oh, yeah, I can go on.
So, let's say somebody comes in and they're drinking, you know, a handle every couple of days.
A vodka, okay.
And they're really, they're drunk, no doubt about it, they're drunk.
And they detox.
And then they gain 30 pounds because they're eating everything in sight.
(35:08):
And they're having affairs on their wife, which they didn't used to have.
And so, they're substituting, instead of a spiritual program,
they're substituting other addictions that change how you are.
Are they sober?
Only in the AA room.
Right.
They're dry.
They're pretty dry.
They have active addictions going on.
But they can pick up their chip.
(35:29):
Yes, they can.
And they can legally pick up their chip.
Yes.
And they can feel good about picking up their chip.
The question is, what happens to them over a year?
What happens over a year?
Do they quit having affairs?
Do they?
They work on a spiritual program.
That's right.
Which will take care of the other stuff eventually.
Maybe.
Yeah.
Some people start off with what you're talking about, where they are,
(35:53):
they immediately replace that obsession with another.
And some people don't have that much of that and are further along the line when they come in.
But I think you've got to give them room to start getting better in all the different areas.
That's one of the biggest things that I see is that for guys like us that's been around for a long time,
(36:14):
it took me years to finally get to a point that some of those character defects I was willing to give up.
Exactly.
Exactly.
And I think that's what...
If we had to be sober to be clean and sober,
I mean if we had to be free of using addictions, using outside women and stuff like that,
(36:36):
you and me wouldn't have been sober for half of the time that we're sober.
That's right.
And that doesn't make sense.
I think it makes more sense to say that we're sober, but we're improving, we're getting better.
Working the program.
So if you were to graph this, you'd see that if they're actually working the program,
they have all these other addictions going on,
the farther they move into the spiritual part of the program, getting close to God,
(37:00):
which is the purpose of...they say it in the book.
The purpose of this book is to get you in touch with God.
They'll do for you what you can't do for yourself.
Okay, sorry, but that's the deal.
And so as you're doing that, you'll see the addictions start to drop off.
The addictions drop off.
That's right.
You don't need them.
But that person working the program is basically as sober he is in the moment.
(37:26):
In the moment.
Dan, any last words for us?
It's been a terrific discussion.
One last word for us.
No, I think Aaron on the side of giving the people the possibility that they are sober is of benefit.
I think that it's of benefit to tell them that's really great that you haven't had anything to drink in two weeks.
(37:48):
I'm proud of you for that without having to discuss anything else.
And so I think we ought to accept that we're doing that for people and do that for them to start with.
When they're two years into the program and are still acting that way, then maybe somebody needs their sponsor needs to say something to them.
But I think initially the thing we can do to help them is say, wow, you're working the program.
(38:14):
You're two weeks sober.
Yeah.
Guys, I want to end the people that are listening.
I hope we haven't confused anybody.
I know that I'm going to go away from this.
And I love this.
This is why I keep coming to Alcoholics Anonymous.
(38:36):
I'm 82 and I'm still learning.
And I love that.
And AA is that's what it's been for me.
That's what AA has done for me.
And to have this where I can look at it something with another point of view, there's a freedom in it.
I just want to say this is my experience that having been around the program and working the steps for a long time, the last thing, the last character defect that I see leaving me and I see it is the judgmentalness.
(39:09):
Yes.
That I can be judgmental towards others.
I see people in there and I go, well, that son of a bitch.
And then I just go, stop my job, man.
My job is love and compassionate and tolerant.
That's my job.
Okay.
And help them work the steps if they want to work the steps.
Not to be a judgmental asshole.
That's not sober.
(39:32):
I like what you just said because in my Ubering, I'm driving along, my next ride pops up.
I never pay attention.
I just hit accept.
I drop off my current passenger and I see where I'm going to pick somebody up.
And I see what their name is.
And I find myself judging because of where they live or how their name is spelled.
(40:00):
And then I pick that person up and I realize, what a jerk.
This is not the person you projected this passenger to be.
And it's this several years that I've been doing this has taught me to stop judging the boat by its cover, if you will.
(40:21):
And wait until you get there and the person's in your car and you've had this wonderful conversation.
Still don't judge, but don't prejudge.
And that's been really delightful.
And I think that comes as a part of emotional and working the steps.
(40:42):
Because before I was judging everyone about everything before it didn't matter.
I could have been wrong and I was still going to judge you.
Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.
The Creator judges maybe, but certainly not us.
We're not authorized to do that.
What a nice hour spent.
(41:04):
Very nice.
(41:34):
Any views, thoughts, or opinions expressed by an individual in this venue are solely that of the individual and do not reflect the views, policies, or position of any specific recovery-based entity or organization.
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