July 3, 2024 • 48 mins
2024 1037 Michelle, Larry, and Rusty discuss growing up in chaotic households and some of the unreasonable boundaries they experienced in their youth and how as adults they have been able to establish and experience healthy boundaries as a result of various programs of recovery.
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(00:00):
Good morning everyone. I'm Rusty and I'm an alcoholic. Hi Rusty. Hi Rusty. And I'm Tim
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and I'm an alcoholic and this is Children of Chaos. Hi Tim. Hi Tim. Hi. How
you doing? I'm wonderful, aren't you? Wonderful. Good. Larry, you doing alright?
I did lightful. Michelle? And I'm Michelle, alcoholic, ACOA,
Al-Anon. You name it. I'm doing great. Yeah. Today we're going to talk about
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boundaries, which is a subject that can put a lot of pressure on an individual
when they're trying to change their boundaries. Let me read a couple of
little things here that says that boundaries ensure that our behavior is
appropriate and keep us from offending others. When we have healthy boundaries,
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we also know when we are being abused. That's something I never knew. A person
without boundaries will not know when someone is physically, emotionally, or
intellectually violating them. Developing boundaries is a core issue for
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codependence in recovery and nowhere is this more dramatically illustrated than
in the adult children of alcoholics. They need to understand and develop
boundaries in order to fully recover and claim our identities. So with that, let's
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start out with Larry, when you first got here, did you have any idea about
boundaries? Never heard the word before in my life unless it was on a map. I
didn't know what boundaries were. It took me years to figure that out and
even figured it out that it takes years to get to the point that I just can say
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no and it's a boundary. But I didn't know. I came from a violent family and in this
violence and all that stuff, there's no boundaries. Emotional strain, kids are to
be heard, things like that. Stuff like that, you develop no boundaries.
But I knew nothing about it. Michelle? I think for me that boundaries are
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tied up very closely with abandonment issues and manipulation and
communication because I had a lot of complex things going on in my home that
were manipulation under the surface and I never knew that no is a complete
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sentence and that it's okay to say no. In my family, it was not okay to
disagree and they either had to agree with you or you had to agree
with them and I learned in these programs that it's okay to have two
opinions and talk about it and that doesn't make somebody wrong. But in my
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family, people were always trying to get you to do what they wanted you to do
without just black and white asking you and so it became very confusing and
there was always a fear that if you didn't do it right that you'd get left
or abandoned. I've never thought about it in that way but that's you're this six
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seven eight year old ten year old child and your parents are God at that at that
time and well really until you start to really get into your teenage years. So
here I am looking to them and if they say it's true, our little minds say okay
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that's the way it is so I'm gonna follow that. I want to read one more thing that
I liked a lot when I read some of the my materials says alcoholic families are
usually emotionally, physically, and intellectually abusive. It is important to
remember however that this abuse can occur in any family where children are
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raised by anxious unpredictable parents. Parents affected by compulsive behavior
or addiction often lack a clear sense of themselves and are likely to raise
children with the same problems. Children raised with undependable parents often
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become adults with damaged boundaries. The most obvious form of boundary
violation occurs in the form of physical abuse or neglect. Now in the home that I
was raised in and it was an alcoholic home very much so. A lot of violence and
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one of the things my mom was always hyper vigilant. She had the emotions of
you could tell she had quit growing mentally and about in her teenage years
because she had no internal locus of control and if I said something out of
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line wham she had slapped me across the face. Now that's abuse now did you don't
know that you just know that maybe I ought to keep my mouth shut. That's the
way I learned what was appropriate in that house and what wasn't appropriate
and for me it was you don't talk back because if you talk back your butt is in
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trouble. Plus she was a perfectionist she came out of a very poor family and
everything had to be perfect. That's where I know that's where all my
perfectionism came from. She had bought the family had bought some new
furniture and when she bought this it was French provincial I'll never forget
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what the hell is French provincial but we had this plastic that we put over
the furniture is in the front room. Now you never saw the furniture
because all you saw was the freaking plastic but when people were coming over
to visit we'd take the plastic off and everybody would sit around in the front
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room or when we took pictures everybody would take the plastic off and that's
the way it was. It's like we live this phony life where it's a phony life and so
in that it's like you made your bed before you left the bedroom every night
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and if you didn't there was and you the other thing you didn't do was lay down
in the daytime and take a nap. Those are boundaries that I grew up with and you
know what I took those boundaries right out when I left home at 17, 18 went to
the Navy I took all those boundaries with me and then when I got into a
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relationship those were the appropriate boundaries and these women that I would
they didn't know what the hell was going on. Now Larry you can relate to that I
can you're shaking your head over there tell me. Absolutely when you said that
the my last divorce the woman didn't know how to load a dishwasher. I'm a
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dishwashing loader professional. Yes yes yes. I'd say you idiot you don't you know and
that's the other thing calling people names stuff like that I was called Ames
as a child the violence was there I like like the part where it said angst
there's angst in that anxiety. Joe Lane would say this so I love him because
he gave me a lot he'd say get in the car get in the car you know they're trying
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to hurry to get in the car stuff like that that you're going okay and if you
didn't get in there you're gonna get hit in the back of the head or something and
here's another thing this if this just came to me my parents we always we had
the plastic tube we never took it off matter of fact we even had plastic going
to do the new carpet you know I mean you had walk with that plastic and we were so
funny we you had to act this way and you had it everybody out there didn't know
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anything about the family system which was crazy because they didn't want you
to know about family didn't want you to know. Let me say this doing this podcast has I
think I have great boundaries today I don't think I'm codependent at times I'll
show it'll show up like the deal we discussed the other day on the car it'll
show up but by no one knows it's time to get out of it I feel it now I used to I
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would feel it but it'll just let go or why do you to do that anyway especially
when the financial deal what this podcast has let me do with boundaries
codependency it's let me I understand I understand but now it's put really
better words to my understanding I could go say no to all these are you
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codependent no I'm not those things but it's let me look behind the curtain a
little better a little deeper and go hey you're in a great spot in your life
and I remember Don issues to say you just need to trust the process the
process has worked for me because I have hung out with people that want substance
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and care and not style and flair we talk about depth we don't tell how's the
weather out there you know what kind of car you drive we talk about how's your
life going and it's depth here we talk about these these things that in in most
people that come from survival families are so much different than people that
didn't come from come from love and they say all you need is to feel loved and
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secure I didn't feel loved and secure so this has let me get to the point where
I feel love and secure today I find relationships that love me and I love
them and I can have that inner reaction with them thank you Larry I didn't have
a lot of violence in my family but there was hierarchy and you had to serve and
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take your role and take your place and at least that's how I felt I that's how
it looked from my point of view and so you know I learned to do that I mean my
mother her favorite line is I was born to serve she also says it takes all of
us to make one whole person so I mean I grew up and those are jokes but are they
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yeah I don't know I don't think they are and so I learned to do some kind of
dysfunctional things and my relationships as a result with significant
others aren't equal like I'm either higher or you're higher and I've got to
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keep you happy to keep you plugged into this and there's a lot of confusion and
I had a string of really bad relationships and marriages and I just
decided I was done and it was a really easy not to bounce up against somebody's
boundary when you're going solo but I'm recently back back in the saddle and
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dating again and that is where I learn that's where I put this information into
full practice and it's hard and but I have enough wherewithal at this point
that I just don't impulsively react so I'm noticing that where I used to be in
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a relationship for ten years I'm in one for six months or two months and I'm
like this isn't working this is not what I want this isn't healthy or whatever it
may be and I have the ability I used to be stuck in relationships because I was
very I would endure a bad relationship rather than to feel abandonment did you
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ever have that feeling I'm a failed again yeah oh yeah say that's that's the
one that just really affects our self-worth our self-esteem there's
shame behind in that you know and you it's not that you didn't want to get but
you knew that it wasn't right for you Larry you and I both have went through
all that the first ten years that we were you know in that intense fellowship
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we had and I don't have that anymore and you you're on such a wonderful trip
right now well I used to think for some reason when I get into a relationship
that it had to be forever and like I don't know why I like didn't have
regular skills like people date they try this one out they back up they try this
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one out I never did that I don't understand but it has to do with these
boundaries this codependency and the feeling of being abandoned I totally
agree it's like I got this one I got to keep this one I remember one time
calling you and say I have done it to myself again and it's the loneliest
words I don't know how to date the lady that kicked my butt I kicked my butt
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with her she was my greatest teacher because you're such a loop you're such a
problem I said I'm not a problem I have problems but I'm not a problem see and
it was a different word but it was in that vein and I got something out of
that that but I went from relationship to relationship relationship and it is
miserable it's miserable because if I give them any time and I like them and
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pretty soon the real me shows up I read this one time you get a divorce you lose
weight you get some new glasses you get your haircut you go out and you start
dating you find somebody you hook up with them and then about six months the
real turkey in you comes out right because I don't change and I was just as
crazy as she was I say there's 300 women in the room I'll pick out the axe
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murder every time but so did she like attract weed did the dance with my
mother I did the dance with my mother and father did the violence to come here
go away they divorced and went back married twice that's what really really
changed my life as far as the pain of growing up made me look at myself and I
wanted a mate but I'd wanted somebody I could not take the chaos any longer I
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wanted somebody that was gentle and kind and and trustworthy because I also picked
up women that were very pretty or women and then I'd be jealous if that makes
any sense to anybody I want to talk a little bit about emotional boundaries
now emotional boundaries are formed early in our life and are greatly
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influenced by the nature of the bond with our parents emotional boundaries
protect us like an internal shield helping us to determine which emotions
are ours and letting us deflect emotions that are not ours when we have healthy
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emotional boundaries we can honestly determine our feelings about any
situation place or thing now that took a long time in recovery for me because
they talk about those internal shields and I've always thought about it as
armor you anybody remember the little book the night and rusty armor and the
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guy what it was about was a guy that put on this armor and they used a regular
armor thing as the metaphor and what we do as humans is that we put on layers
and each each year that we're growing into those behaviors we're putting on
more layers actually is to protect ourselves from the outside world but
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what we do unbeknownst to us is that we can't get out either we're trapped we
can't deal with life on life's terms but they can't get into me either and what
recovery does for us is to break through those that armor and you remember when
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you as a kid and used to get those gum wrappers and you'd peel the tinfoil
that's what it's like taking that that armor off it's like peeling tinfoil and
it can be that slow I mean for me it's been it's ongoing I'm 40 years sober but
I'm still peeling the armor and I hope that that by the time that I leave the
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planet that I can say the job's done so would could you comment on that those
how do you see those boundaries that you said that aren't really healthy
boundaries for you there there there those emotional boundaries my family
wasn't overly emotive we didn't operate in a really comfortable arena talking
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about touchy-feely stuff and so I came into the program I really didn't know
how to identify any emotions I would have told you I didn't have self-pity I
didn't have fear almost every time I said I didn't have have something it
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really came back later on a year or two later and I was like wow so I became
very careful not to say if I say I don't have that I would look really hard at
that because it was it was there and and a lot of times it wasn't that I was in
denial I just couldn't see it it was in the blinders or I guess it was denial
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but it wasn't on purpose I just didn't know what I didn't know and I believe it
was a lot putting up a lot of my mother's father was an alcoholic so I
believe she came as a child into having that armor and then she and my dad got
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married at 15 and 16 they were just little little children getting married
with a baby on the way and we all just learned to do that we were just trying
to survive oh my god yes can you imagine that 15 and 16 Bradshaw talks about that
in one of his deals that these young people are getting married they get met
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we get go out there and get married and we don't have a clue about how to raise
the child so you're right you're just raising each other almost there god
that's amazing yeah so how did that how did that play out for you Michelle well
I can remember I was it was before I got in the program that I was driving in the
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car and I can even remember where we were and it was just like this royal of
just anxiety and my solar plexus and I really I think that was when I really
began eating and drinking and just to try to to quell that and I got into the
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program and I had either pushed it down or run from the emotions and had built
so much armor that it really was quite a process to feel safe letting that out
because I felt like if it got out of the cage it would last forever and it was
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going to become bigger than me and it would just engulf me wow that I mean it
really felt that big and it took a while to I guess some of letting the armor down
happened in the fourth and fifth step just writing about it and reflecting on
it and trying to see it and then telling someone else about it and kind of helped
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me see that how the patterns were because there were patterns within those
feelings and then just sitting in enough meetings for long enough somebody would
say something and I would be like that's it that's what I'm feeling and you know I
could let my wall down a little bit at a time in meetings where I felt safe to
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hear and to share because I mean it was crazy to think that I had no words for
to even describe these emotions see and that's part of it that's part of it we
don't we are so shut down emotionally that we don't even have words to explain
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that where we're at Larry before I go to you I'd like you to say this emotional
boundaries are damaged you're trying to set up emotional boundaries but they're
damaged in the family by role reversal emotional incest shaming and
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humiliation and enmeshment well I can I can agree with every one of those I had
every one of those in my family but I'd like to say this also I got married the
first time at 15 it was a debacle because I still had hormones of a 15 year old
boy and I was still doing my thing and in breaking her heart and she told me
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he'll go back she said you know Larry when you so you have been I'm sorry
you're still in communication with her now I oh we're great friends oh good but
the thing is she said you know Larry when when you left me I almost died and
I said she said for years and I said well I'm glad you said that I want to
tell you I apologize I've apologized to you but I apologize from the bottom of
my heart listen I almost died too you were my first love that tender love and
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you're so young and your tender emotions it was excruciating I would also like to
say how could we have any boundaries when we were treated like that my mother
and dad never said to my dad on nightclubs and bars he was an alcoholic
was a very violent man with men and women my mother worked at a factory they
were two they were two kids they got married when they're 17 18 they were two
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kids trying to learn how to raise kids and I have to give them that that
information so they're trying to do so I don't have no nothing against them for
that and for a long time I did now also they taught us how to lie I told you the
one time about my mother I thought she was having an affair with this guy and
then I when I got sober I went and made my men and said you know I want to be
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dependent because I thought you was having this fair cheese well I wasn't and
then she dies my aunt says what she was too but what I want to say about that
that first wife is we're great friends today and I'm good friends with those
the otherwise one of them I never see her but the other ones and my last wife
one of the things I say about her which this is a this is it may be it's it's
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it's unhinging unnotting my life I said to her one time I said you know I tell
everybody at my a meeting I tell them I said the best thing you did for me was
you leave me your best thing for you me and my son and she said thank you there
I appreciate that she said you know you came from a crazy family I did know that
by that time I don't think some people's crazy family was different than my
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crazy fit ours are a lot alike others are perfectionism in mine heads
perfectionism I got to say this though you met I remember things going through
here my dad had they had the plastic seats in the car too we had a 59 plastic
seats wherever a guy must have made a fortune but anyway and he would never
let us get in the front seat that we couldn't sit you were little with you
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stand get the back seat but then when my uncle come over my cousins could stand
in the back see that there's little stuff like that that is stuck back in
your psyche exactly and I it doesn't bother me today but back then it how
could we have anything and I got to say this about if you've never read the book
the night in rusty armor it changed my life when that guy started crying and
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then the tears the tears rusted the armor and the tears is what changed my
life the guy yesterday talking about when his son died and he had to say I
gotta let you go I gotta let you go and he broke when I broke it changed my life
I've become a nicer human being I treated people better I had a more empty
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for the people because I understand what real pain is anyway thanks Larry I
wanted to cover emotional incest a little bit because a lot of the people
that are listening it probably not heard of emotional incest and there's some
couple of books out on it that are that are really informative emotional
insects is where a mother or a father will have an unhealthy relationship
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with either a daughter or a son and most the time it's it's the mother and and
the son and and a lot of times it's either the where he's the only child or
or he's the firstborn and I had an unhealthy relationship with my mother
now that comes out like I was the favorite my brother my brother and my
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sisters all know who was the favorite you know I never wanted to be the
favorite but I was I was locked in that trap in that triangle of me my mom and
my stepdad and every time my mom would have problems I was the oldest see so
every time mom would have trouble with him and that was pretty common every
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day she would come to me and she'd tell me things that weren't appropriate for
a young kid at 9 10 11 years old to know and that continued on until I finally
left home I got out of that house as soon as I could but that's and then what
happens with sometimes a dad and his little daughter who becomes the little
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doll and he dotes on her and takes her to line it see this is all boundary
stuff these are not healthy boundaries at all of course the child you know
doesn't know I did I did know that I hated this being in this position you
know it just didn't feel right to me so that's what emotional incest is it's not
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sexual it's emotional I think it can be with mother and daughter I think it can
be with any combination because I think it's when the adult treats the child
like a friend or a therapist thank you exactly instead of all of that yeah and
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you know I think whenever you live together you do always have some amount
of knowing of things that happen but it can happen in greater degrees and I
think my family had more enmeshment than that I think that was our big big issue
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I'd like to say my mother was the same as Rusty's mother but the triangulation
she was married about four times to an ever stepfather she took up for little
Larry Joe and the battle was always there but she also when in the fights
and you understand this right you when they're in there fighting my mother was
screaming come and help he's gonna kill me well what is a three-year-old child
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or a five-year-old child a six-toed man involving children in that kind of if
that's not PTSD I don't know what it is it's trauma it's trauma that is trauma I
like a guy here a while back he said instead of what's wrong with that person
it's what's their trauma most people come in these 12-step programs have some
trauma of some kind of some kind yes anyway a little bit on shaming and
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humiliation that's that's no boundaries at all there parents who constantly
humiliate and blame blame raise emotionally deprived children if they're
always blaming you and shaming you and what do you how do you think that turns
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out for young kids you know you have no self-worth it destroys them it destroys
them they they don't have a snowball's chance in hell because everything that
they're taking in and it's all new to them and their brain of course is not we
know today everybody sitting here knows is that you know until you're 25 or 26
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that's when the brain finally the the frontal lobe finally develops fully and
then before that think about when you're 7 8 10 you know you're you just don't
understand this you're cognitively you you you don't so in my case it wasn't my
parents it was a much older sibling well she's 12 years older than I am
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and I believe that she was jealous and she was like I was left with her some
and I for the longest time I always wondered if it was like what happened to
me why am I like this and and I really believe it wasn't my parents I think it
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might have been an older sibling you know you've talked to you've talked
about that before and that that's like a almost like a parent 12 years is a lot
when you're 12 years old and they're 24 that's that's big so yeah that I think
that's something that would be really beneficial maybe to look at a little
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deeper if you ever thought about doing that I'd like to yeah intellectual
boundaries a healthy intellectual boundary lets us trust how we view the
world it allows us to know what we want and need and helps us to sort out our
desires from those of others a flexible intellectual boundary lets us accept
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information from the outside world and look at it before we make it ours but
all of anybody sitting at this table and those of you are listening probably
the boundaries that your parents set up is what you took out and through the
world and the lower the concept of healthy boundaries the lower that you're
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going to function out in the world and you're usually going to hook up with
somebody at about your level of differentiation that's what it is it's
how much you're differentiated from the family the more you're not you're less
differentiated the more codependent you are and the more you're
differentiated the more independent you will leave that home that's really
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difficult to do because most of these people don't don't have that so any any
comments on that guys that you wanted to say well I'll just say there are gods at
that time that's right parents are gods whatever information is my thing was all
my life I've been like a little entrepreneur like I could always dream
up stuff said this would work I remember my dad or my stepdad both that won't
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work that won't work some people come from us says this will work we can do
this but they held me down because when they tell you can't do anything and
you're basically stupid you hear that it finally and then finally I broke out of
that by doing doing things I come a day a I got to say that that really helped
me it skyrocketed me in the fourth dimension as far as doing what I want to
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do following my dreams as far as the business I want to run and open and
things like that but for years I couldn't do that because I didn't have
any self-esteem I can't do that they already told me you can't do anything so
that's emotional that's that's exactly right on I'll say this the other
by my sister-in-law my brother-in-law in town my sister-in-law anyway my my my
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brother hit their their child married this guy and the guy was a mechanic
mechanic the mechanic worked at a for a dealership so he he quit and opened at
his own mechanic store now he's gonna open the second one I said that's
fantastic you know he's a he's a assertive aggressive little man he wants
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more for his family my sister-in-law said well he had a good job see that's
where I came from my mother well you got that good job down at the State Highway
Department making $200 a month thank God I broke out of that one yeah but
that's that's what it is it sure they're their philosophies of what works for you
is that's that's damage I think to some degree I see my son as real
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entrepreneurial and real aggressive that way and my dad endorses that but I think
there was some amount of he wanted me in a certain role and it conflicted with
that like being you know taking chances and doing that and he would never think
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that because at the same time he held that against me and it was a really an
interesting dynamic yeah constant conflict because he wanted me to be what
the women did in the family was to serve that that role you just start that but I
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was the heir apparent and though and we had no boys so I was thrust into the
family business so I was always supposed to be a debutante and a company merger
and I was also always supposed to hold the do all the family birthdays and hold
all the family together and be the family glue but I was also supposed to
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be and and some of those aren't equal like they can't be the same like this
this personality trait conflicts with this I mean they're not yeah they don't
they don't mesh like a trophy wife and a business mogul usually don't do the same
thing exactly I kind of ended up with the foundation where I kind of do the
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socialite and run the business so it kind of worked out for me but it was
kind of hard getting there it's been a road head it has yeah I'm very proud of
you yeah yeah I've held her in high esteem thank you yeah one other thing
spiritual boundaries very important a spiritual boundary gives us the sense
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that we are not earthly beings trying to become spiritual but spiritual beings
in human form now I didn't know any of that till I got to AA the spiritual
boundary allows us to believe there is a power in the universe greater than
ourselves and in my 40 years I still don't I honestly I don't know what that
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power is even today but I believe that it's there and I trust it I must say
that I totally agree with you on that because I don't know if there's a God
one day I think there may be one one day I'm not sure about that but I came from
a Pentecostal background I was drug drug up a Pentecostal not making them bad but
everything there's one way and that's it period and if you don't do that and I'll
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say it's also there was a lot of shame in that religion for me too oh hell you
go to their five years old sit on the booth and they'd be slain in the spirit
and all that stuff is like man this is crazy it was for a child you know it's
like this is and of course my dad on nightclubs and bars I chose that side
better than the religious side but it was very embarrassing to be in there
with those people you know of course you and I have talked about this many times
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but that's the way that I grew up we they were either in the church and
everybody was going three three times a week and I was going down to Oliver
call and and being baptized I've been baptized about five or six times
including once in the in the what's the river down there Jordan no down by
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talapal Illinois yeah I said church camp Jesus gonna get you for not
remembering I know that I know but I love church camp all them little church
girl yeah but it was so it was so black and white so rigid and you know for
somebody growing up at 1450 13 whatever it was it was like I couldn't figure it
(37:24):
out you know we're either drunk and and people's getting knocked across the room
or we're down there at the altar this is not about the church no it's about my
family history that's what it's about well and immediately when you said I'd
get slain in the spirit and I'd fall down there didn't want to but did anyway
I'm laying there thinking just now how darn long I was lay here see they didn't
(37:47):
even give me information for that too or I got that's a cute girl over there you
know she all I hear a little longer just insane stuff just well I was thinking my
dad isn't religious at all now his side of the family were pretty strong staunch
southern Baptist and all my family was really and it was confusing that some
(38:15):
people didn't believe in God at all and other people did but what I learned in
AA that helped me a lot was I feel like you can be born with a spiritual muscle
just like some people are more athletic or some people are really smart in math
you have everybody has some degree of spiritualness and it's just like
(38:37):
practicing your arithmetic or doing push-ups you can build that spiritual
muscle by practice and you know because everybody has some degree of athleticism
less or more or mental acuity and math or languages or whatever less or more
and I believe the same as in spiritual and it's there's different types of
(39:05):
ways you can go with that and I was never really exposed to the options until I
got into AA and how you might pray and how you might not pray and how you might
think of yourself as opposed to other people and God and you know I just it
(39:30):
was just it was a little bit of a lesson that I never really got in church on the
spiritual boundaries it I want to read this here because it really took me into
it a healthy spiritual boundary lets us embrace our humanness when we grow up
with the notion of a higher power who loves us unconditionally we feel we can
(39:56):
make mistakes and will still be loved infants are not born into this world
hating themselves healthy children are able to give and receive love it is the
mutilation of our spiritual boundary that causes us to fall out of love with
ourselves and disconnect from our higher power okay this is interesting when I
(40:20):
had to come up with my concept of God it was the same exact concept of my
biologic father punishing unconditional authoritative all these things now I
have the most personal like I laugh I'm like God don't be pulling that funny
shit on me today because I am not in the mood for it you know I have that kind of
(40:45):
relationship and he's got a sense of humor or whoever she it's more than just
one sex but just all these things but it was so interesting that when I wrote
down the attributes of God it was the exact same as my biological father well
(41:06):
and there's a lot of shame in religion too because the Pentecostal churches you
couldn't do anything I mean you know you wear dark men but you could do it I
remember going to my grandfather who's one that drug me up there and my
grandmother and I said my grandfather I said I'm like six years old I said you
know grand granddad if if if I cuss and drink and smoke and chase women am I
(41:27):
gonna go to hell and he said yeah you are I said well what if I'm just
thinking about those things he said you still going I said I'm in bad shape
I was even at six years old you're thinking about sure stuff you're just
got to get it right and this is interesting I worked with a lady who is a
nun and she had a mother that was a little bit maybe mentally had mental
(41:51):
illness and she went into the convent under Vatican two and her mother disowned
her because she was the original type of Catholic and I mean can you imagine
being so devout that you become a nun and you get disowned for being the wrong
not even the wrong same kind of Catholic just Vatican one versus Vatican two and
(42:17):
you know she was going to hell and she had she had a lot to overcome yes and
that the mental anguish of that for her see that's abuse that is that's trauma
and it's for the main anguishes for both of them really absolutely give up your
child for some ridiculous I see is ridiculous right and you're stuck out
(42:38):
there that would that would be excruciating for me wouldn't do it right
say that let me finish off on spiritual boundaries by repairing damaged
boundaries we discover who we are the process of knowing our reality from the
reality of others requires us to look inward where we may find our true
(42:59):
spiritual identity codependency implies that we we are alienated from our
feelings our beliefs and behaviors as we reclaim our thoughts and emotions we
truly come home to ourselves there we gradually develop our ideas of a higher
(43:19):
power that are not dependent on other people's beliefs this is important if we
are to leave behind destructive notions of a violent punishing God what I see
that as guys is that that was my transition when I came into a that's
when the journey started that's how I started repairing those damaged
(43:44):
boundaries and the 12 steps did that for me and then I went on into therapy
that's that's the way it works if people will just stick around in a a if they'll
just accept how lucky they are to get there we are we are all blessed also in
my journey God has put I like what Mark Anthony says he says if there is a God
(44:08):
and there may be gods that's why I look at it if there is one but in my journey
God has put the right people in my life a brother-in-law was so instrumental in
teaching he was an honorable man a very honorable man and he did these seminars
about how you change your life so he showed up people have shown you've shown
up everybody everybody that everything I've needed to get to where I'm at today
(44:31):
through the process to be a happy man every day of my life and I really feel
that way it's some people say oh you can't do that well I think I can if I
think I can I can right I want to say all those everything was put in the
right place for me to be here but I had to go do the right place see that's what
you're saying about a you gotta go to get that okay the following affirmations
(44:53):
can help us to repair a damaged spiritual boundary first one is I am a
beloved child of God whatever the God of your understanding is I am allowed to
make mistakes I am protected and supported in the loving hands of God I
can live a wonderful life with just that that's what's happened for me and it
(45:19):
didn't happen overnight it's just like one day I woke up in the and went I'm
just a different person I'm a different human being than I was I know that I'm
still on that journey it's a wonderful journey I can't wait till the till the
next thing that goes on I don't know what it's gonna be Larry would you like
(45:42):
to wind up saying anything I would just like to say that Helen Keller said life
is either a great adventure or it's nothing I'm on a great adventure yeah
just got goosebumps and I feel that way we're having one right now that
exactly information has thrown the doors open for me too but this just adds to the
icing on the cake to where I'm at you know thank you I just want to say to the
(46:04):
people listening don't be afraid just practice find some safe people and try
to just work on some of these issues on boundaries and don't be so hard on
yourself I had an ass-kicking machine that was stuck in the on position and
(46:25):
every time I got it wrong it was it was it just wasn't that big of a deal as I
made it and you know be kind to yourself and the people around you and just keep
trying don't give up don't give up before the miracle happens thank you
Michelle Larry I like what Oprah Winfrey says only surround yourself with people
(46:50):
that lift you higher and that's why you don't get this stuff that's right you
break the bonds of that because I think this is a lifelong lesson even though
you get the big ones they're still finesse and more refinement no matter
how long you've been in a relationship or how many new relationships you get in
(47:12):
you can always get better at this so just start practicing and keep trying
and don't be afraid to try because you're not going to get better until you
practice okay guys that's it for today this has been a production of children
of chaos net children of chaos as a forum to discuss topics related to and
(47:34):
in concert with addiction and recovery in America is not affiliated with
endorsed or financed by any recovery or treatment program organization or
institution any views thoughts or opinions expressed by an individual in
this venue are solely that of the individual and do not reflect the views
(47:55):
policies or position of any specific recovery based entity or organization
Good morning everyone. I'm Rusty and I'm an alcoholic. Hi Rusty. Hi Rusty. And I'm Tim
(00:06):
and I'm an alcoholic and this is Children of Chaos. Hi Tim. Hi Tim. Hi. How
you doing? I'm wonderful, aren't you? Wonderful. Good. Larry, you doing alright?
I did lightful. Michelle? And I'm Michelle, alcoholic, ACOA,
Al-Anon. You name it. I'm doing great. Yeah. Today we're going to talk about
(00:26):
boundaries, which is a subject that can put a lot of pressure on an individual
when they're trying to change their boundaries. Let me read a couple of
little things here that says that boundaries ensure that our behavior is
appropriate and keep us from offending others. When we have healthy boundaries,
(00:51):
we also know when we are being abused. That's something I never knew. A person
without boundaries will not know when someone is physically, emotionally, or
intellectually violating them. Developing boundaries is a core issue for
(01:11):
codependence in recovery and nowhere is this more dramatically illustrated than
in the adult children of alcoholics. They need to understand and develop
boundaries in order to fully recover and claim our identities. So with that, let's
(01:32):
start out with Larry, when you first got here, did you have any idea about
boundaries? Never heard the word before in my life unless it was on a map. I
didn't know what boundaries were. It took me years to figure that out and
even figured it out that it takes years to get to the point that I just can say
(01:53):
no and it's a boundary. But I didn't know. I came from a violent family and in this
violence and all that stuff, there's no boundaries. Emotional strain, kids are to
be heard, things like that. Stuff like that, you develop no boundaries.
But I knew nothing about it. Michelle? I think for me that boundaries are
(02:14):
tied up very closely with abandonment issues and manipulation and
communication because I had a lot of complex things going on in my home that
were manipulation under the surface and I never knew that no is a complete
(02:40):
sentence and that it's okay to say no. In my family, it was not okay to
disagree and they either had to agree with you or you had to agree
with them and I learned in these programs that it's okay to have two
opinions and talk about it and that doesn't make somebody wrong. But in my
(03:05):
family, people were always trying to get you to do what they wanted you to do
without just black and white asking you and so it became very confusing and
there was always a fear that if you didn't do it right that you'd get left
or abandoned. I've never thought about it in that way but that's you're this six
(03:30):
seven eight year old ten year old child and your parents are God at that at that
time and well really until you start to really get into your teenage years. So
here I am looking to them and if they say it's true, our little minds say okay
(03:50):
that's the way it is so I'm gonna follow that. I want to read one more thing that
I liked a lot when I read some of the my materials says alcoholic families are
usually emotionally, physically, and intellectually abusive. It is important to
remember however that this abuse can occur in any family where children are
(04:12):
raised by anxious unpredictable parents. Parents affected by compulsive behavior
or addiction often lack a clear sense of themselves and are likely to raise
children with the same problems. Children raised with undependable parents often
(04:34):
become adults with damaged boundaries. The most obvious form of boundary
violation occurs in the form of physical abuse or neglect. Now in the home that I
was raised in and it was an alcoholic home very much so. A lot of violence and
(04:54):
one of the things my mom was always hyper vigilant. She had the emotions of
you could tell she had quit growing mentally and about in her teenage years
because she had no internal locus of control and if I said something out of
(05:14):
line wham she had slapped me across the face. Now that's abuse now did you don't
know that you just know that maybe I ought to keep my mouth shut. That's the
way I learned what was appropriate in that house and what wasn't appropriate
and for me it was you don't talk back because if you talk back your butt is in
(05:38):
trouble. Plus she was a perfectionist she came out of a very poor family and
everything had to be perfect. That's where I know that's where all my
perfectionism came from. She had bought the family had bought some new
furniture and when she bought this it was French provincial I'll never forget
(06:00):
what the hell is French provincial but we had this plastic that we put over
the furniture is in the front room. Now you never saw the furniture
because all you saw was the freaking plastic but when people were coming over
to visit we'd take the plastic off and everybody would sit around in the front
(06:21):
room or when we took pictures everybody would take the plastic off and that's
the way it was. It's like we live this phony life where it's a phony life and so
in that it's like you made your bed before you left the bedroom every night
(06:42):
and if you didn't there was and you the other thing you didn't do was lay down
in the daytime and take a nap. Those are boundaries that I grew up with and you
know what I took those boundaries right out when I left home at 17, 18 went to
the Navy I took all those boundaries with me and then when I got into a
(07:03):
relationship those were the appropriate boundaries and these women that I would
they didn't know what the hell was going on. Now Larry you can relate to that I
can you're shaking your head over there tell me. Absolutely when you said that
the my last divorce the woman didn't know how to load a dishwasher. I'm a
(07:27):
dishwashing loader professional. Yes yes yes. I'd say you idiot you don't you know and
that's the other thing calling people names stuff like that I was called Ames
as a child the violence was there I like like the part where it said angst
there's angst in that anxiety. Joe Lane would say this so I love him because
he gave me a lot he'd say get in the car get in the car you know they're trying
(07:48):
to hurry to get in the car stuff like that that you're going okay and if you
didn't get in there you're gonna get hit in the back of the head or something and
here's another thing this if this just came to me my parents we always we had
the plastic tube we never took it off matter of fact we even had plastic going
to do the new carpet you know I mean you had walk with that plastic and we were so
funny we you had to act this way and you had it everybody out there didn't know
(08:09):
anything about the family system which was crazy because they didn't want you
to know about family didn't want you to know. Let me say this doing this podcast has I
think I have great boundaries today I don't think I'm codependent at times I'll
show it'll show up like the deal we discussed the other day on the car it'll
show up but by no one knows it's time to get out of it I feel it now I used to I
(08:31):
would feel it but it'll just let go or why do you to do that anyway especially
when the financial deal what this podcast has let me do with boundaries
codependency it's let me I understand I understand but now it's put really
better words to my understanding I could go say no to all these are you
(08:51):
codependent no I'm not those things but it's let me look behind the curtain a
little better a little deeper and go hey you're in a great spot in your life
and I remember Don issues to say you just need to trust the process the
process has worked for me because I have hung out with people that want substance
(09:12):
and care and not style and flair we talk about depth we don't tell how's the
weather out there you know what kind of car you drive we talk about how's your
life going and it's depth here we talk about these these things that in in most
people that come from survival families are so much different than people that
didn't come from come from love and they say all you need is to feel loved and
(09:36):
secure I didn't feel loved and secure so this has let me get to the point where
I feel love and secure today I find relationships that love me and I love
them and I can have that inner reaction with them thank you Larry I didn't have
a lot of violence in my family but there was hierarchy and you had to serve and
(09:58):
take your role and take your place and at least that's how I felt I that's how
it looked from my point of view and so you know I learned to do that I mean my
mother her favorite line is I was born to serve she also says it takes all of
us to make one whole person so I mean I grew up and those are jokes but are they
(10:23):
yeah I don't know I don't think they are and so I learned to do some kind of
dysfunctional things and my relationships as a result with significant
others aren't equal like I'm either higher or you're higher and I've got to
(10:44):
keep you happy to keep you plugged into this and there's a lot of confusion and
I had a string of really bad relationships and marriages and I just
decided I was done and it was a really easy not to bounce up against somebody's
boundary when you're going solo but I'm recently back back in the saddle and
(11:08):
dating again and that is where I learn that's where I put this information into
full practice and it's hard and but I have enough wherewithal at this point
that I just don't impulsively react so I'm noticing that where I used to be in
(11:30):
a relationship for ten years I'm in one for six months or two months and I'm
like this isn't working this is not what I want this isn't healthy or whatever it
may be and I have the ability I used to be stuck in relationships because I was
very I would endure a bad relationship rather than to feel abandonment did you
(11:59):
ever have that feeling I'm a failed again yeah oh yeah say that's that's the
one that just really affects our self-worth our self-esteem there's
shame behind in that you know and you it's not that you didn't want to get but
you knew that it wasn't right for you Larry you and I both have went through
all that the first ten years that we were you know in that intense fellowship
(12:23):
we had and I don't have that anymore and you you're on such a wonderful trip
right now well I used to think for some reason when I get into a relationship
that it had to be forever and like I don't know why I like didn't have
regular skills like people date they try this one out they back up they try this
(12:46):
one out I never did that I don't understand but it has to do with these
boundaries this codependency and the feeling of being abandoned I totally
agree it's like I got this one I got to keep this one I remember one time
calling you and say I have done it to myself again and it's the loneliest
words I don't know how to date the lady that kicked my butt I kicked my butt
(13:11):
with her she was my greatest teacher because you're such a loop you're such a
problem I said I'm not a problem I have problems but I'm not a problem see and
it was a different word but it was in that vein and I got something out of
that that but I went from relationship to relationship relationship and it is
miserable it's miserable because if I give them any time and I like them and
(13:33):
pretty soon the real me shows up I read this one time you get a divorce you lose
weight you get some new glasses you get your haircut you go out and you start
dating you find somebody you hook up with them and then about six months the
real turkey in you comes out right because I don't change and I was just as
crazy as she was I say there's 300 women in the room I'll pick out the axe
(13:54):
murder every time but so did she like attract weed did the dance with my
mother I did the dance with my mother and father did the violence to come here
go away they divorced and went back married twice that's what really really
changed my life as far as the pain of growing up made me look at myself and I
wanted a mate but I'd wanted somebody I could not take the chaos any longer I
(14:19):
wanted somebody that was gentle and kind and and trustworthy because I also picked
up women that were very pretty or women and then I'd be jealous if that makes
any sense to anybody I want to talk a little bit about emotional boundaries
now emotional boundaries are formed early in our life and are greatly
(14:39):
influenced by the nature of the bond with our parents emotional boundaries
protect us like an internal shield helping us to determine which emotions
are ours and letting us deflect emotions that are not ours when we have healthy
(15:02):
emotional boundaries we can honestly determine our feelings about any
situation place or thing now that took a long time in recovery for me because
they talk about those internal shields and I've always thought about it as
armor you anybody remember the little book the night and rusty armor and the
(15:28):
guy what it was about was a guy that put on this armor and they used a regular
armor thing as the metaphor and what we do as humans is that we put on layers
and each each year that we're growing into those behaviors we're putting on
more layers actually is to protect ourselves from the outside world but
(15:54):
what we do unbeknownst to us is that we can't get out either we're trapped we
can't deal with life on life's terms but they can't get into me either and what
recovery does for us is to break through those that armor and you remember when
(16:16):
you as a kid and used to get those gum wrappers and you'd peel the tinfoil
that's what it's like taking that that armor off it's like peeling tinfoil and
it can be that slow I mean for me it's been it's ongoing I'm 40 years sober but
I'm still peeling the armor and I hope that that by the time that I leave the
(16:38):
planet that I can say the job's done so would could you comment on that those
how do you see those boundaries that you said that aren't really healthy
boundaries for you there there there those emotional boundaries my family
wasn't overly emotive we didn't operate in a really comfortable arena talking
(17:05):
about touchy-feely stuff and so I came into the program I really didn't know
how to identify any emotions I would have told you I didn't have self-pity I
didn't have fear almost every time I said I didn't have have something it
(17:27):
really came back later on a year or two later and I was like wow so I became
very careful not to say if I say I don't have that I would look really hard at
that because it was it was there and and a lot of times it wasn't that I was in
denial I just couldn't see it it was in the blinders or I guess it was denial
(17:49):
but it wasn't on purpose I just didn't know what I didn't know and I believe it
was a lot putting up a lot of my mother's father was an alcoholic so I
believe she came as a child into having that armor and then she and my dad got
(18:12):
married at 15 and 16 they were just little little children getting married
with a baby on the way and we all just learned to do that we were just trying
to survive oh my god yes can you imagine that 15 and 16 Bradshaw talks about that
in one of his deals that these young people are getting married they get met
(18:36):
we get go out there and get married and we don't have a clue about how to raise
the child so you're right you're just raising each other almost there god
that's amazing yeah so how did that how did that play out for you Michelle well
I can remember I was it was before I got in the program that I was driving in the
(18:58):
car and I can even remember where we were and it was just like this royal of
just anxiety and my solar plexus and I really I think that was when I really
began eating and drinking and just to try to to quell that and I got into the
(19:22):
program and I had either pushed it down or run from the emotions and had built
so much armor that it really was quite a process to feel safe letting that out
because I felt like if it got out of the cage it would last forever and it was
(19:44):
going to become bigger than me and it would just engulf me wow that I mean it
really felt that big and it took a while to I guess some of letting the armor down
happened in the fourth and fifth step just writing about it and reflecting on
it and trying to see it and then telling someone else about it and kind of helped
(20:08):
me see that how the patterns were because there were patterns within those
feelings and then just sitting in enough meetings for long enough somebody would
say something and I would be like that's it that's what I'm feeling and you know I
could let my wall down a little bit at a time in meetings where I felt safe to
(20:32):
hear and to share because I mean it was crazy to think that I had no words for
to even describe these emotions see and that's part of it that's part of it we
don't we are so shut down emotionally that we don't even have words to explain
(20:54):
that where we're at Larry before I go to you I'd like you to say this emotional
boundaries are damaged you're trying to set up emotional boundaries but they're
damaged in the family by role reversal emotional incest shaming and
(21:14):
humiliation and enmeshment well I can I can agree with every one of those I had
every one of those in my family but I'd like to say this also I got married the
first time at 15 it was a debacle because I still had hormones of a 15 year old
boy and I was still doing my thing and in breaking her heart and she told me
(21:35):
he'll go back she said you know Larry when you so you have been I'm sorry
you're still in communication with her now I oh we're great friends oh good but
the thing is she said you know Larry when when you left me I almost died and
I said she said for years and I said well I'm glad you said that I want to
tell you I apologize I've apologized to you but I apologize from the bottom of
my heart listen I almost died too you were my first love that tender love and
(22:00):
you're so young and your tender emotions it was excruciating I would also like to
say how could we have any boundaries when we were treated like that my mother
and dad never said to my dad on nightclubs and bars he was an alcoholic
was a very violent man with men and women my mother worked at a factory they
were two they were two kids they got married when they're 17 18 they were two
(22:23):
kids trying to learn how to raise kids and I have to give them that that
information so they're trying to do so I don't have no nothing against them for
that and for a long time I did now also they taught us how to lie I told you the
one time about my mother I thought she was having an affair with this guy and
then I when I got sober I went and made my men and said you know I want to be
(22:44):
dependent because I thought you was having this fair cheese well I wasn't and
then she dies my aunt says what she was too but what I want to say about that
that first wife is we're great friends today and I'm good friends with those
the otherwise one of them I never see her but the other ones and my last wife
one of the things I say about her which this is a this is it may be it's it's
(23:08):
it's unhinging unnotting my life I said to her one time I said you know I tell
everybody at my a meeting I tell them I said the best thing you did for me was
you leave me your best thing for you me and my son and she said thank you there
I appreciate that she said you know you came from a crazy family I did know that
by that time I don't think some people's crazy family was different than my
(23:32):
crazy fit ours are a lot alike others are perfectionism in mine heads
perfectionism I got to say this though you met I remember things going through
here my dad had they had the plastic seats in the car too we had a 59 plastic
seats wherever a guy must have made a fortune but anyway and he would never
let us get in the front seat that we couldn't sit you were little with you
(23:55):
stand get the back seat but then when my uncle come over my cousins could stand
in the back see that there's little stuff like that that is stuck back in
your psyche exactly and I it doesn't bother me today but back then it how
could we have anything and I got to say this about if you've never read the book
the night in rusty armor it changed my life when that guy started crying and
(24:19):
then the tears the tears rusted the armor and the tears is what changed my
life the guy yesterday talking about when his son died and he had to say I
gotta let you go I gotta let you go and he broke when I broke it changed my life
I've become a nicer human being I treated people better I had a more empty
(24:41):
for the people because I understand what real pain is anyway thanks Larry I
wanted to cover emotional incest a little bit because a lot of the people
that are listening it probably not heard of emotional incest and there's some
couple of books out on it that are that are really informative emotional
insects is where a mother or a father will have an unhealthy relationship
(25:05):
with either a daughter or a son and most the time it's it's the mother and and
the son and and a lot of times it's either the where he's the only child or
or he's the firstborn and I had an unhealthy relationship with my mother
now that comes out like I was the favorite my brother my brother and my
(25:30):
sisters all know who was the favorite you know I never wanted to be the
favorite but I was I was locked in that trap in that triangle of me my mom and
my stepdad and every time my mom would have problems I was the oldest see so
every time mom would have trouble with him and that was pretty common every
(25:53):
day she would come to me and she'd tell me things that weren't appropriate for
a young kid at 9 10 11 years old to know and that continued on until I finally
left home I got out of that house as soon as I could but that's and then what
happens with sometimes a dad and his little daughter who becomes the little
(26:19):
doll and he dotes on her and takes her to line it see this is all boundary
stuff these are not healthy boundaries at all of course the child you know
doesn't know I did I did know that I hated this being in this position you
know it just didn't feel right to me so that's what emotional incest is it's not
(26:44):
sexual it's emotional I think it can be with mother and daughter I think it can
be with any combination because I think it's when the adult treats the child
like a friend or a therapist thank you exactly instead of all of that yeah and
(27:05):
you know I think whenever you live together you do always have some amount
of knowing of things that happen but it can happen in greater degrees and I
think my family had more enmeshment than that I think that was our big big issue
(27:30):
I'd like to say my mother was the same as Rusty's mother but the triangulation
she was married about four times to an ever stepfather she took up for little
Larry Joe and the battle was always there but she also when in the fights
and you understand this right you when they're in there fighting my mother was
screaming come and help he's gonna kill me well what is a three-year-old child
(27:51):
or a five-year-old child a six-toed man involving children in that kind of if
that's not PTSD I don't know what it is it's trauma it's trauma that is trauma I
like a guy here a while back he said instead of what's wrong with that person
it's what's their trauma most people come in these 12-step programs have some
trauma of some kind of some kind yes anyway a little bit on shaming and
(28:15):
humiliation that's that's no boundaries at all there parents who constantly
humiliate and blame blame raise emotionally deprived children if they're
always blaming you and shaming you and what do you how do you think that turns
(28:39):
out for young kids you know you have no self-worth it destroys them it destroys
them they they don't have a snowball's chance in hell because everything that
they're taking in and it's all new to them and their brain of course is not we
know today everybody sitting here knows is that you know until you're 25 or 26
(29:04):
that's when the brain finally the the frontal lobe finally develops fully and
then before that think about when you're 7 8 10 you know you're you just don't
understand this you're cognitively you you you don't so in my case it wasn't my
parents it was a much older sibling well she's 12 years older than I am
(29:28):
and I believe that she was jealous and she was like I was left with her some
and I for the longest time I always wondered if it was like what happened to
me why am I like this and and I really believe it wasn't my parents I think it
(29:51):
might have been an older sibling you know you've talked to you've talked
about that before and that that's like a almost like a parent 12 years is a lot
when you're 12 years old and they're 24 that's that's big so yeah that I think
that's something that would be really beneficial maybe to look at a little
(30:13):
deeper if you ever thought about doing that I'd like to yeah intellectual
boundaries a healthy intellectual boundary lets us trust how we view the
world it allows us to know what we want and need and helps us to sort out our
desires from those of others a flexible intellectual boundary lets us accept
(30:37):
information from the outside world and look at it before we make it ours but
all of anybody sitting at this table and those of you are listening probably
the boundaries that your parents set up is what you took out and through the
world and the lower the concept of healthy boundaries the lower that you're
(31:05):
going to function out in the world and you're usually going to hook up with
somebody at about your level of differentiation that's what it is it's
how much you're differentiated from the family the more you're not you're less
differentiated the more codependent you are and the more you're
differentiated the more independent you will leave that home that's really
(31:32):
difficult to do because most of these people don't don't have that so any any
comments on that guys that you wanted to say well I'll just say there are gods at
that time that's right parents are gods whatever information is my thing was all
my life I've been like a little entrepreneur like I could always dream
up stuff said this would work I remember my dad or my stepdad both that won't
(31:55):
work that won't work some people come from us says this will work we can do
this but they held me down because when they tell you can't do anything and
you're basically stupid you hear that it finally and then finally I broke out of
that by doing doing things I come a day a I got to say that that really helped
me it skyrocketed me in the fourth dimension as far as doing what I want to
(32:20):
do following my dreams as far as the business I want to run and open and
things like that but for years I couldn't do that because I didn't have
any self-esteem I can't do that they already told me you can't do anything so
that's emotional that's that's exactly right on I'll say this the other
by my sister-in-law my brother-in-law in town my sister-in-law anyway my my my
(32:41):
brother hit their their child married this guy and the guy was a mechanic
mechanic the mechanic worked at a for a dealership so he he quit and opened at
his own mechanic store now he's gonna open the second one I said that's
fantastic you know he's a he's a assertive aggressive little man he wants
(33:03):
more for his family my sister-in-law said well he had a good job see that's
where I came from my mother well you got that good job down at the State Highway
Department making $200 a month thank God I broke out of that one yeah but
that's that's what it is it sure they're their philosophies of what works for you
is that's that's damage I think to some degree I see my son as real
(33:28):
entrepreneurial and real aggressive that way and my dad endorses that but I think
there was some amount of he wanted me in a certain role and it conflicted with
that like being you know taking chances and doing that and he would never think
(33:52):
that because at the same time he held that against me and it was a really an
interesting dynamic yeah constant conflict because he wanted me to be what
the women did in the family was to serve that that role you just start that but I
(34:13):
was the heir apparent and though and we had no boys so I was thrust into the
family business so I was always supposed to be a debutante and a company merger
and I was also always supposed to hold the do all the family birthdays and hold
all the family together and be the family glue but I was also supposed to
(34:36):
be and and some of those aren't equal like they can't be the same like this
this personality trait conflicts with this I mean they're not yeah they don't
they don't mesh like a trophy wife and a business mogul usually don't do the same
thing exactly I kind of ended up with the foundation where I kind of do the
(35:00):
socialite and run the business so it kind of worked out for me but it was
kind of hard getting there it's been a road head it has yeah I'm very proud of
you yeah yeah I've held her in high esteem thank you yeah one other thing
spiritual boundaries very important a spiritual boundary gives us the sense
(35:22):
that we are not earthly beings trying to become spiritual but spiritual beings
in human form now I didn't know any of that till I got to AA the spiritual
boundary allows us to believe there is a power in the universe greater than
ourselves and in my 40 years I still don't I honestly I don't know what that
(35:44):
power is even today but I believe that it's there and I trust it I must say
that I totally agree with you on that because I don't know if there's a God
one day I think there may be one one day I'm not sure about that but I came from
a Pentecostal background I was drug drug up a Pentecostal not making them bad but
everything there's one way and that's it period and if you don't do that and I'll
(36:06):
say it's also there was a lot of shame in that religion for me too oh hell you
go to their five years old sit on the booth and they'd be slain in the spirit
and all that stuff is like man this is crazy it was for a child you know it's
like this is and of course my dad on nightclubs and bars I chose that side
better than the religious side but it was very embarrassing to be in there
with those people you know of course you and I have talked about this many times
(36:29):
but that's the way that I grew up we they were either in the church and
everybody was going three three times a week and I was going down to Oliver
call and and being baptized I've been baptized about five or six times
including once in the in the what's the river down there Jordan no down by
(36:58):
talapal Illinois yeah I said church camp Jesus gonna get you for not
remembering I know that I know but I love church camp all them little church
girl yeah but it was so it was so black and white so rigid and you know for
somebody growing up at 1450 13 whatever it was it was like I couldn't figure it
(37:24):
out you know we're either drunk and and people's getting knocked across the room
or we're down there at the altar this is not about the church no it's about my
family history that's what it's about well and immediately when you said I'd
get slain in the spirit and I'd fall down there didn't want to but did anyway
I'm laying there thinking just now how darn long I was lay here see they didn't
(37:47):
even give me information for that too or I got that's a cute girl over there you
know she all I hear a little longer just insane stuff just well I was thinking my
dad isn't religious at all now his side of the family were pretty strong staunch
southern Baptist and all my family was really and it was confusing that some
(38:15):
people didn't believe in God at all and other people did but what I learned in
AA that helped me a lot was I feel like you can be born with a spiritual muscle
just like some people are more athletic or some people are really smart in math
you have everybody has some degree of spiritualness and it's just like
(38:37):
practicing your arithmetic or doing push-ups you can build that spiritual
muscle by practice and you know because everybody has some degree of athleticism
less or more or mental acuity and math or languages or whatever less or more
and I believe the same as in spiritual and it's there's different types of
(39:05):
ways you can go with that and I was never really exposed to the options until I
got into AA and how you might pray and how you might not pray and how you might
think of yourself as opposed to other people and God and you know I just it
(39:30):
was just it was a little bit of a lesson that I never really got in church on the
spiritual boundaries it I want to read this here because it really took me into
it a healthy spiritual boundary lets us embrace our humanness when we grow up
with the notion of a higher power who loves us unconditionally we feel we can
(39:56):
make mistakes and will still be loved infants are not born into this world
hating themselves healthy children are able to give and receive love it is the
mutilation of our spiritual boundary that causes us to fall out of love with
ourselves and disconnect from our higher power okay this is interesting when I
(40:20):
had to come up with my concept of God it was the same exact concept of my
biologic father punishing unconditional authoritative all these things now I
have the most personal like I laugh I'm like God don't be pulling that funny
shit on me today because I am not in the mood for it you know I have that kind of
(40:45):
relationship and he's got a sense of humor or whoever she it's more than just
one sex but just all these things but it was so interesting that when I wrote
down the attributes of God it was the exact same as my biological father well
(41:06):
and there's a lot of shame in religion too because the Pentecostal churches you
couldn't do anything I mean you know you wear dark men but you could do it I
remember going to my grandfather who's one that drug me up there and my
grandmother and I said my grandfather I said I'm like six years old I said you
know grand granddad if if if I cuss and drink and smoke and chase women am I
(41:27):
gonna go to hell and he said yeah you are I said well what if I'm just
thinking about those things he said you still going I said I'm in bad shape
I was even at six years old you're thinking about sure stuff you're just
got to get it right and this is interesting I worked with a lady who is a
nun and she had a mother that was a little bit maybe mentally had mental
(41:51):
illness and she went into the convent under Vatican two and her mother disowned
her because she was the original type of Catholic and I mean can you imagine
being so devout that you become a nun and you get disowned for being the wrong
not even the wrong same kind of Catholic just Vatican one versus Vatican two and
(42:17):
you know she was going to hell and she had she had a lot to overcome yes and
that the mental anguish of that for her see that's abuse that is that's trauma
and it's for the main anguishes for both of them really absolutely give up your
child for some ridiculous I see is ridiculous right and you're stuck out
(42:38):
there that would that would be excruciating for me wouldn't do it right
say that let me finish off on spiritual boundaries by repairing damaged
boundaries we discover who we are the process of knowing our reality from the
reality of others requires us to look inward where we may find our true
(42:59):
spiritual identity codependency implies that we we are alienated from our
feelings our beliefs and behaviors as we reclaim our thoughts and emotions we
truly come home to ourselves there we gradually develop our ideas of a higher
(43:19):
power that are not dependent on other people's beliefs this is important if we
are to leave behind destructive notions of a violent punishing God what I see
that as guys is that that was my transition when I came into a that's
when the journey started that's how I started repairing those damaged
(43:44):
boundaries and the 12 steps did that for me and then I went on into therapy
that's that's the way it works if people will just stick around in a a if they'll
just accept how lucky they are to get there we are we are all blessed also in
my journey God has put I like what Mark Anthony says he says if there is a God
(44:08):
and there may be gods that's why I look at it if there is one but in my journey
God has put the right people in my life a brother-in-law was so instrumental in
teaching he was an honorable man a very honorable man and he did these seminars
about how you change your life so he showed up people have shown you've shown
up everybody everybody that everything I've needed to get to where I'm at today
(44:31):
through the process to be a happy man every day of my life and I really feel
that way it's some people say oh you can't do that well I think I can if I
think I can I can right I want to say all those everything was put in the
right place for me to be here but I had to go do the right place see that's what
you're saying about a you gotta go to get that okay the following affirmations
(44:53):
can help us to repair a damaged spiritual boundary first one is I am a
beloved child of God whatever the God of your understanding is I am allowed to
make mistakes I am protected and supported in the loving hands of God I
can live a wonderful life with just that that's what's happened for me and it
(45:19):
didn't happen overnight it's just like one day I woke up in the and went I'm
just a different person I'm a different human being than I was I know that I'm
still on that journey it's a wonderful journey I can't wait till the till the
next thing that goes on I don't know what it's gonna be Larry would you like
(45:42):
to wind up saying anything I would just like to say that Helen Keller said life
is either a great adventure or it's nothing I'm on a great adventure yeah
just got goosebumps and I feel that way we're having one right now that
exactly information has thrown the doors open for me too but this just adds to the
icing on the cake to where I'm at you know thank you I just want to say to the
(46:04):
people listening don't be afraid just practice find some safe people and try
to just work on some of these issues on boundaries and don't be so hard on
yourself I had an ass-kicking machine that was stuck in the on position and
(46:25):
every time I got it wrong it was it was it just wasn't that big of a deal as I
made it and you know be kind to yourself and the people around you and just keep
trying don't give up don't give up before the miracle happens thank you
Michelle Larry I like what Oprah Winfrey says only surround yourself with people
(46:50):
that lift you higher and that's why you don't get this stuff that's right you
break the bonds of that because I think this is a lifelong lesson even though
you get the big ones they're still finesse and more refinement no matter
how long you've been in a relationship or how many new relationships you get in
(47:12):
you can always get better at this so just start practicing and keep trying
and don't be afraid to try because you're not going to get better until you
practice okay guys that's it for today this has been a production of children
of chaos net children of chaos as a forum to discuss topics related to and
(47:34):
in concert with addiction and recovery in America is not affiliated with
endorsed or financed by any recovery or treatment program organization or
institution any views thoughts or opinions expressed by an individual in
this venue are solely that of the individual and do not reflect the views
(47:55):
policies or position of any specific recovery based entity or organization
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