August 7, 2024 • 54 mins
2024 E1042 Pamela and Curt return to continue our conversation on "Stage II Recovery: Life Beyond Addiction" and the importance of understanding the profound effect of habits and their impact on and impediment to change.
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(00:00):
Thanks for joining us today. I'm Tim and I'm an alcoholic.
(00:05):
And I'm Rusty and I'm an alcoholic and this is Children of Chaos.
Good morning Rusty.
Morning Tim.
Today we're going to be continuing our conversation on Stage 2 Recovery, Life Beyond Addiction.
And before we start into today's subject matter, I want to recap where we were with our last episode.
(00:29):
We began talking about what Stage 1 Recovery is by using Ernie Larson's definition,
and that is breaking the primary addiction, getting sober is Stage 1 Recovery.
And he says that abstinence from a mood-altering chemical or a specific behavior is still just abstinence.
(00:54):
Stage 2 is not for people that think that they have outgrown the 12 steps.
It's not possible to outgrow the 12 steps, but as the program teaches,
the steps can only take us as far as we will allow them to take us.
Then we spoke about defining recovery.
(01:15):
When we define recovery, we also define what the problem or issue is,
and what needs to be done about that problem or issue, and finally, what our program is for.
Stage 2 Recovery is the rebuilding of the life that was saved in Stage 1.
(01:36):
And we went into self-defeating learned behaviors, and self-defeating learned behaviors are those that get in our way.
These are ways of thinking and acting that we have practiced and that through practice have become habits.
And in the course of time, these habits have become who we are.
(01:59):
And then there are six types of self-defeating learned behaviors.
The first of those is the caretaker. Caretakers don't just care for others, they breed dependency.
Caretakers have learned to base their self-image on how much they can do for other people.
In Stage 2 Recovery, caretakers can learn to stop playing God and allow others to take responsibility for their own actions.
(02:27):
Next is the people-pleaser. People-pleasers have learned self-esteem is based on never making anyone angry.
They must never say no or do anything that will make people go away.
In Stage 2 Recovery, people-pleasers can learn to assert their own rights and not feel apologetic about it.
(02:50):
Then we have the martyr. Martyrs have learned life only has meaning when there is plenty of suffering going on.
They court pain for the sake of normalcy.
They find ways to make sure things don't get too good.
If their relationships seem to be rolling along peacefully, they will find some way to sabotage or derail the train.
(03:17):
The martyr in Stage 2 Recovery can become people who do not need to suffer in abusive relationships.
Then we have the workaholic. The workaholics are people who have learned to base their self-esteem on activity.
Workaholics find it extremely difficult to relax.
(03:39):
In Stage 2 Recovery, workaholics can learn to feel worthwhile even though they are at rest.
Then we have the perfectionist. Nothing on earth can ever be perfect.
Perfectionists can never be happy or satisfied. The base of their self-esteem is unattainable.
And through Stage 2 Recovery, perfectionists can learn to live at peace with an imperfect world.
(04:08):
They can learn the blessed relief that comes from accepting themselves as they are, flawed, and allowing others the same right to be imperfect as well.
And finally, we have the tap dancer. The tap dancer bases their self-esteem on staying loose.
They have learned to never make a commitment.
(04:31):
Stage 2 Recovery teaches the tap dancer to stand still and be counted.
They can learn that commitment can mean freedom as well as confinement.
So Stage 2 Recovery begins not just when you're standing at the starting line, but when you've actually begun the race by beginning to deal with the underlying issues.
(04:55):
And part of those underlying issues are habits, and that is our conversation topic for today.
Once again, we have Pamela S. and Kurt W. with us today.
So let's talk about habits, Rusty.
Morning, everybody.
Morning.
(05:16):
Before we start, I'd like any comments that either one of you have about, you know, what from last week, about any feelings there about what went on for you?
I went through this in our group, Rusty, what, almost two years ago, I guess.
And so this was more than a review, and it was a good way to understand the things that were bothering me at that time, or a lot of things that are not bothering me as bad as they were then.
(05:46):
And some of them I don't think about much anymore. So I think it's doing what it needs to do.
Okay, clear. Thanks, Harry.
I like the part of Stage 2 Recovery that talks about taking another first step, because the first step in the 12-step program is about admitting powerlessness over the addiction.
(06:08):
But yet what we call in Stage 2 Recovery, the second first step, is you become as serious about our living patterns and our habits as we are about the addiction that brought us into the program in the first place.
And Stage 2 Recovery is about living.
Thanks, Pam.
To start off, Ernie talks about most of our lives, what we think, say, do, and become is a result of habit.
(06:37):
And since habits are rooted in our unconscious, they are always active, operating full blast, whether we're aware of them or not.
That's what we have to keep in mind when we are deciding to make changes.
First of all, we've got to understand that we live in habits. And then we have to understand that they are rooted in the subconscious.
(07:03):
And that's what we're going to talk about today, and how to change those habits that are self-defeating.
And we take those habits on. Usually some of the most ingrained come from childhood.
And then we just carry on with them far beyond when they're useful to us.
But we don't know that because they're in the subconscious.
(07:24):
And they also, we have the guardian that we're going to talk about, which is really the ego that keeps us stuck.
It says the fact is that what we live, what we learn, what we learn, we practice.
What we practice, we become. And what we become has consequences.
(07:46):
Many people don't realize consequences are not good or bad. They're just the result of our behavior.
Most people think that when they get in trouble, they're going to get a consequence.
They don't think about when they do something good, they're going to get a consequence.
I became aware of that. When I got here, the first sponsor that I had in AA, I came in through Al-Anon,
(08:13):
but the first sponsor that I had in AA, he told me that I grew up in a bad school and I learned good.
What that was, was all of my presupposed and unconscious type thoughts and my sing-songing that had gone on my entire life.
And we were extremely in denial in my home. And so all of that had to be broken through first.
(08:37):
I became, you know, the way I had looked at it was in these, on things that really I'm emotional about,
I kind of view that as something that could very well become some kind of underlying habit for me.
If I'm emotional about it, if I take an oath that this is never going to happen again,
(08:59):
or if I start developing resentments, then I have started to build out what I call my ego.
And when I build that out, it's hard to let any other new stuff come in without truly doing something like this,
stage one and stage two recovery.
(09:22):
You know, I think that these habits rooted in our subconscious is what the big book calls the mental obsession,
because that's where they're really deep. And I know when I first came into program,
I prayed for sobriety, for abstinence, you know, to simply help me stop practicing my addictions.
(09:45):
But today, I don't pray for that. I pray for the freedom from the mental obsession,
which is all about the feelings, the feelings that I need to indulge, whatever addiction that is at the time,
whether it's food addiction, workaholism, controlling the world or minding everybody else's business except my own.
And I believe that this mental obsession is rooted in all these feelings of being fearful and resentful,
(10:11):
feeling less than or doubtful or angry, even distraught.
And even I could become overwhelmed over happiness and successes that might come into my life,
and because it made me feel uncomfortable. And when I feel that I want or I need to numb out,
this is what that was all about for me. So the mental obsession is what is the crux to the disease for me.
(10:38):
Wow, that's really insightful, Pam.
Well, there's also the physical side of habits, what we do.
And in breaking two of my addictions, both drinking and smoking,
there was a habit of taking my hand from the table or a surface to my mouth.
(11:07):
With the drinking, it's taking the glass to the mouth, and that is ease and comfort.
And it was the same thing with the smoking, because I'm taking my cigarette from, quote unquote, the ashtray to my mouth,
smoking, putting it back. And those are very hard habits to break, and those habits were developed over time.
(11:35):
And once the drinking was gone, the smoking was gone, the habit of taking my arm from my hand from the table to my mouth was still there.
Right.
And so, changing addictions for a while, if you will, I bought a six-pack of stylus, and I used those styluses to go,
(12:05):
I kept it in my hand just like I would have a cigarette, and was doing that, and I was sucking on that stylus.
And eventually, I wasn't doing it as much anymore, and now I have no stylus.
But any time that craving comes to repeat that addiction, I get out my stylus.
(12:30):
I can defeat habit or that behavior in just a moment.
It's not just the mindset. We've trained our bodies to act in a certain way, and that is an important habit as well.
And you know, AA does a great job of saying, it's like you've got to change the people, places, and things where you're going.
(12:55):
It's like I couldn't keep going to the bar, which had been a habit for me for 30-some years, right?
And that's what I did. I was addicted to going to the bar. I mean, it was an ingrained habit.
And when I got to AA, they told me, hey, you've got to quit doing those sorts of things.
So what I replaced my old habit with was I changed my habit to go into AA meetings every day.
(13:23):
That's what I did, and that's what everyone has done, whether they realize it or not.
The added part is that there are some of us, we have a habit of doing that, but we are become addicted to that.
Some of us, about 10% of us are alcoholics or addicts, right?
(13:44):
And so we have that obsession on top of just the your old everyday habit.
Let's talk a little bit about principles.
It says as much as 98% of what we do is the result of habit, not choice, but habit.
(14:05):
It says, of course, not all habits are bad habits. Now, this is something we've got to remember, too.
Our very best traits are also habits, self-enhancing habits,
and they become habits the same way our self-defeating behavior habits become part of us by practice.
(14:26):
Now, is it easy to change? No. But if you take on a habit, you can also change that.
And there's those self-enhancing habits that you want to stay with.
And so we've got to separate the negative from the positive.
And habits save us a lot of time because, you know, otherwise we'd be thinking about,
(14:49):
OK, now I have to go brush my teeth. Now I have to read my devotionals for the day.
But once I have those habits, they're just automatic and can take place without a lot of conscious energy.
And so habits do serve a purpose.
It goes on to say that whatever we do consistently will become a habit.
(15:11):
To a large extent, we don't choose our habits, or at least we didn't.
They just came upon us. As children, it could be a circumstance where every time I would be loud and obnoxious,
I would get in trouble for that. So I learned how to not be that way.
(15:33):
And I took that on. And it became a habit, a very strong habit for us.
But we don't even recognize it because, as Ernie tells us, it's all in the subconscious.
And also what we practice, we become good at.
And some of us that are obsessive-compulsive become real good at it to an extent that it can harm us.
(16:00):
See, that's when a habit becomes a self-defeating behavior,
when it starts to interfere with everything else that I'm doing.
The habits were strong. In fact, many of them were compulsions.
I was going to do it just the way it was.
Also, under principles, it talks about now he is not asking questions about them,
(16:24):
but looking at himself and the habits that run his life without his knowledge or permission.
To me, that is almost phenomenal.
Have you ever been driving your car and you might, you wake up and all of a sudden you've gone three miles down the road
(16:46):
and you don't even know it. And you wonder, well, how did I do that?
Well, that habit had taken over the driving. And that can be troublesome at times, especially when, and I've done this.
You come out of it and you come back into the moment and I'm about to rear end a car.
I've actually done that. So I know that that's what happens.
(17:09):
And I'm doing all of this on the subconscious.
Millions of people are walking around every day doing what they do,
and they don't even realize that it's all coming out of their subconscious, that the habits are self-defeating.
I call it autopilot.
And some people never stop to examine their motives or why they do things. They just stay on autopilot.
(17:35):
That's right. And you will usually hear that saying, well, I've just always been this way.
When they really haven't always been that way.
They just don't remember when they took on the habit. They were very, probably very young.
And children especially are so impressionable from that age is five up to eleven and twelve.
(17:58):
They're all so impressionable. Everything that's coming at them is new.
And they're learning from their parents what is permissible and what is not.
And then that child takes it right out into the world.
It's a never ending circle. And you've got to break that circle.
(18:19):
They have to get out of that cycle. But most people don't do that.
They don't know how to do that. So they stay stuck.
Ernie Larson uses the thermostat. Do you want to read it?
Sure. The fundamental difference between thermostats and thermometers has often been noted.
(18:40):
Thermostats control the environment. Thermometers merely record it.
Our habits are our personal reality thermostats.
They ensure that the environment stays comfortable by compelling us to act exactly the way we see ourselves.
(19:01):
So what happens is our personal thermostats. Each one of us has a personal thermostat.
Yeah, that's meant to keep us comfortable.
They are ingenious and powerful as our deepest selves.
For that is the source of their power.
The function of this subconscious self, which some call the robot,
(19:24):
and some liken to the program fed into a computer, is merely to defend.
I call this thermostat the guardian, since its sole role is to judge, assess,
or make vague judgments about this being healthy or not.
Merely to defend. Now, what are we really talking about here?
(19:47):
Well, we're talking about the ego. And the ego always wants what it wants.
It never wants for me my highest and best good. It just wants what it wants.
You know, until I can become aware of this going on constantly in my subconscious,
I don't have a chance of changing this thing.
(20:10):
But once I see that when I start to balk and make up excuses,
that's the guardian pulling me back. And really what it actually is, is my ego.
And I'm doing battle with my ego constantly when I'm in recovery.
It creates doubts in our mind.
(20:31):
Thank you, Pam. And can you remember any doubts that you've had about something that you've tried to do?
And then you've got people, too, that will tell you, oh, you can't do that.
And then your guardian just eats that up.
Well, Pam told me that I couldn't do that, you know, so I might as well not even try.
I want to step back a second to the thermostat and the thermometer.
(20:56):
Sure.
My body has a desired external temperature, and that external temperature, it's what I like.
When I use my thermostat in relationship to my thoughts,
(21:18):
I want to keep my thermostat at any place that I'm comfortable.
I don't want to go into situations that are going to cause me discomfort.
I don't want to be too comfortable and too relaxed, because if I'm too comfortable and relaxed, I become complacent.
(21:45):
And if I become complacent, I tend to go back to old habits.
That's right.
So if I keep myself in a place that is comfortable yet not complacent,
I have my thermostat in the right place for me in the actions I'm taking in the world.
(22:11):
I just wanted to share that.
That's great.
That's great.
I have one thing, too.
Yeah, go ahead.
Just a second ago, you were asking direct questions, do I remember this or that.
We get too close to a subject, and my guardian will just shut me down.
I've got air for brains.
How will it do that?
(22:33):
I'll tell you where it comes from.
My dad was an attorney.
If he asked direct questions, I'm sure Zach was not going to answer them.
So instead of just defying him, I will just shut it down.
Which you are defying him.
Yeah, I just like, well, I can't tell you.
I don't know.
So that's been a problem when I get into it.
(22:55):
So you carry that on in your life.
Yeah.
Right.
Is that right?
Right.
So I'll go to a seminar or something, they'll start asking direct questions, boom, I'm gone.
It's just awful.
But I know it now, and so I can stay with it, I can pray, and start doing some different things that way.
What would be the next step in that?
(23:17):
You've identified the guardian, right?
Yeah.
The seagull is out to get you.
So what is the new behavior that you need to take on to put that other one behind you?
Well, I think practice the pause and relax and take it easy, and then take a brand new start at those questions.
(23:39):
Yeah.
Because I'm going to say something wrong, something weird is going to happen.
You know what I mean?
So now you're getting deeper with when you're able to do that, you're getting deeper into what the cause is now.
Yeah.
And you know it's a self-defeating behavior for you.
Yeah, absolutely.
If I was in that position, which I have been, if I'm trying to overcome that, my deal would be to try to answer the question.
(24:06):
Because my fear is always that I'm going to be wrong.
Pam, you've got a lot of good stuff written there.
Anything you want to share?
Just some of my experiences with when I pray for this freedom from the mental obsession, what I find I receive is the gift of reasoning thought.
And if thoughts drive our emotions and our feelings, which I've been told that they do, then my recovery process is to harness my thoughts,
(24:35):
which means that I'm focusing on the principles and the steps and the traditions of the program.
And I find that the slogans are one of the easiest ways to keep certain thoughts in my mind rather than focusing on my triggering emotions.
For example, in my food addiction, if I see a certain food on the menu or at the grocery store,
(25:00):
it may from time to time trigger a past emotion of satisfaction from indulging or binging on that item.
And that'll lead me into some very unhealthy actions.
But if I engage my thinking mind and remember that purchasing that food is not a solution for me anymore,
I can successfully avoid going down that rabbit hole and avoid having a slip or a relapse.
(25:26):
My thoughts then allow my emotions of happiness, freedom, and joy from the obsession kick in and lead me back to where I want my actions to be,
which is in recovery, living in serenity and some peace of mind.
These are the feelings that I really want.
But I had to decide to reach them through my thinking process and not through any emotional pulls and triggers.
(25:51):
So that's how it works.
And it also works in my Al-Anon program.
It's a little bit more difficult because I'm dealing with people and so many emotions about wanting to be helpful to them, other people wanting to be.
And so what I'm trying to do is find a balance between co-dependency and being of assistance.
(26:15):
And because sometimes I have a very, very deep compulsion to help people, whether they ask me for help or not,
and then trying to decide in a situation, and I do this over and over again with family members, is how much am I actually helping them?
What will the results be?
And what can I do that makes me feel like I'm available and supportive, but not so much doing so much that I feel resentful or taking advantage of or compulsive about it?
(26:48):
So it works in all areas of my life.
Boy, that's great.
That's really good.
I love that.
You know, I have a question about the mental obsession.
When I start focusing on a mental obsession, which I guess I don't even actually have to focus on for that obsession to be there,
(27:09):
I tend to create unreasonable expectations, and then I wind up with premeditated resentments.
And so for me, the mental obsession or the ego is not my friend a lot of the time.
(27:31):
Does that happen with you when that mental obsession comes in and you start avoiding things because of it?
Well, I think one of the reasons I'm not an alcoholic is because I don't like being out of control.
I'm a control freak.
So when I have that mental obsession, my mind is out of control.
(27:52):
And so I want to rein it back in.
But it's fearful for me because I don't want to go there because I know that depression and suicidal thoughts can be right behind it for me.
And I don't like that situation.
That's why I work really hard.
(28:14):
That healthy fear kind of drives me sometimes to stay right in the middle of recovery.
And I don't know if that answers your question or not.
Yeah, very much so.
I think what follows the mental obsession is a habit.
Yes, absolutely. That action of going on a binge.
(28:38):
And with the habit, I'm never thinking about what I'm doing, and therefore my mind is not in control.
And you said when my mind's out of control, it leads to destructive behaviors.
And one of the things that Ernie's trying to show people is that you have to become aware of this stuff.
(29:03):
Awareness is the key.
That's right.
Otherwise, we're powerless over it, like Step 1 says.
Absolutely.
And what I hook into with this for me is the spiritual action that anytime I'm upset, no matter what the cause, something's wrong with me.
So instead of that, I have to become aware when somebody confronts me about something, I've got to know that the last thing I need to do is react.
(29:33):
Because the habit, which is in the subconscious, I automatically will react and never give it a thought.
But then once that I react and I spew that venom out on somebody, automatically my conscience comes in and goes,
Man, you've done it to yourself again, Rusty.
(29:54):
You know, I've embarrassed myself.
I've done whatever you want to say.
So we have to become aware of what we're doing so that I can change these behaviors.
Well, when I go into obsession and I'm ready to do that habit, it's I'm going to do that habit.
(30:15):
I mean, it's that strong because there's no consequences.
I don't see the consequences.
I don't think about the consequences.
I do the thing.
And just like you said, then I'm like, Oh God, you know, so we become aware of it sooner over time.
And then to the point where we don't have to go.
And we talk about, he talks about this later in his book about, you know, how the self restraint.
(30:42):
Well, it says it in the 12 and 12 on page 91.
Nothing's going to change until the habit of self restraint becomes automatic.
Absolutely.
And that takes practice.
It does.
There's the practice.
And how this relates to the steps for me is that I'm powerless over that mental obsession until I can find a power greater than myself outside that mental obsession.
(31:10):
And to me, that's, you know, the universe has given me this this thinking brain and this reasoning ability that I have not used.
And I'm like, I lived in the subconscious.
And so I want to be consciously aware and consciously think.
And to me, that's a power outside myself, even though it's within me.
(31:32):
You know, what's amazing to me, guys, is that we have this power within us and the 12 steps.
If you really take them to the nth degree, it will show you this.
Let's think about where we came from and where we're at now.
We were changing habits all this time to be sitting at this table today.
(31:57):
It's amazing to me.
Now, the next thing we're going to talk about is habits defend reality, right?
He says the important thing to know is that feelings only face backwards.
They only know what was not what is, but what was.
(32:19):
We have sent our feelings to school a million times.
We have learned which behaviors make us feel normal and which do not.
That is why feelings cannot be our guide to a new way of life.
If we, as most people do, allow our feelings to be the sole dictator of how we act,
(32:43):
then obviously there will be no lasting new behavior,
because feelings are basing everything on past events and how we reacted to everything in our past.
The simplicity of that just, I miss it sometimes.
You left out the last thought of that.
(33:05):
Okay.
If nothing changes, nothing changes.
That's right.
This is a difficult statement to understand.
Our brain doesn't want to wrap around it because the guardian doesn't want us to hear this.
If I don't change my behavior, nothing will change.
(33:27):
And there will be consequences, the consequences that I'm experiencing now will continue to take place if I do not change the behavior.
If I change the behavior, there will be different consequences.
I can change the behavior for the worse, or I can change the behavior for the better.
(33:54):
Either way, the consequences are going to change.
That's right.
You know, one of the things that you might have heard me say before is that awareness does not equal behavioral change,
because there is, the ego is so strong within us and it's in our subconscious that, you know,
(34:16):
I've had things that I've known for years that was not really to my benefit,
but I didn't do anything to change it because there was some negative payoff that I was getting for that.
And I just, well, my drinking.
I mean, how many times did I have to go to jail?
How many times did I have to, you know, how many wives did I have to lose?
(34:40):
I mean, it's pure insanity.
Sounds just like the book.
I mean, there's 12 places where Bill should have been finished.
Exactly.
Well, I'm glad that's over, but it's not.
No.
You know, maybe one done.
Exactly.
There's a quote from James Baldwin that says,
not everything that is faced can be changed, but nothing can be changed until it is faced.
(35:08):
Right.
And you know, I love that, the awareness that the big book and the 12 and 12 have given me is the acceptance.
That I may not be able to change it.
And usually it's outside of myself.
But even that, the 12, I mean, the big book tells me what's the guy's story at the back.
(35:33):
They've changed the name of it.
Acceptance is the answer.
Yeah.
Used to be.
Yeah, Dr. Alcoholic.
Alcoholic, yeah.
When he wrote that, acceptance, one of the things that I came away with with acceptance is that you don't have to like it.
See, that's where people get stuck on acceptance.
It doesn't say you've got to like it.
You just have to accept it.
(35:55):
And when I'm willing to do that, everything changes.
Well, if we tie the awareness as not behavioral change together with Baldwin,
because I'm aware of it doesn't mean I'm going to change it.
That's right.
But I can't change it if I haven't become aware of it.
(36:19):
That's right.
So not everything that can be faced can be changed.
But nothing can change until we face it.
Right.
Until we become aware of it.
Yeah.
But the question is, how do we become aware of the self-defeating behavior?
I think they become uncomfortable.
Thank you, Pam.
There you go.
(36:40):
They don't work anymore for us as survival skills.
That's exactly what it is.
If I can go back to where I, around the time where that originated,
that habit originated, it takes a hell of a lot of power out of it for me.
Where it's easier to do something with that habit once I realize,
(37:03):
oh, I did this because of that.
I took that on to protect myself, probably.
And so I put it in there so I can take it out.
Exactly.
It gives you some power, doesn't it?
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
That's a great point.
It's about acceptance.
And when you accept something, well, then you can deal with it without emotions.
(37:25):
There it is.
I wanted to go to habits defend reality.
Let me read you a little bit here of what he says.
The second function of habits has to do with our feelings.
That's our habits first line of defense, feelings.
(37:47):
They are like the attack dogs that King Habit unleashes when he sees an enemy approaching.
The important thing to know is that feelings only face backwards.
They only know what was.
We have sent our feelings to school a million times.
(38:09):
We have learned which behaviors make us feel normal and which do not.
That is why feelings cannot be our guide to a new way of life.
If we, as most people do, allow our feelings to be the sole dictator of how we act,
then obviously there will be no lasting new behavior.
(38:33):
And if nothing changes, nothing changes.
One of the things that I try to keep in mind about feelings is, and this has been my experience,
they're fickle.
They change often and depending on what side of the bed I get up on.
And so I can't count on them.
And as for feelings looking backward, that's why meditation helps me so much
(38:59):
because I can turn loose of the past and then I am just in the moment.
And in the moment I don't need to have any feelings.
I can just be and have acceptance and freedom.
And so these practices are really helpful to me in my recovery.
That's great. I love that.
He goes on to say that the truth is that if you want to change how you feel,
(39:25):
you must change how you act and keep it long enough until acting in a healthy manner
is as comfortable as acting in a self-defeating manner used to be.
It takes practice. It means that we have to be engaged.
We just can't say, okay, I want to change this behavior and then just go about my day
(39:49):
and still acting out the old and step six will help us do that, won't it?
Yeah. Absolutely.
We're seeing, I think, in the meetings that we attend that step six and step seven
is getting a lot more notice than when I came in years ago.
(40:11):
Same for you?
Yes, and it takes time. It's not something that's just you can say it and it's done.
It takes time to develop a new habit and to allow the universe to bring in new ideas
and help us examine those things with our awareness.
Thank you, Pam. So help me out here.
(40:32):
This is an area that I still have problems with.
People say in the meeting that you just turn it over to God and that's it.
Well, I've never been able to do anything unless I take an active part in changing
or getting rid of those character defects.
(40:55):
I like that saying that God moves mountains, but he expects me to bring the shovel.
I've got to be ready and willing to do my part. That's the way I see it.
I'm not saying it's the right. Now, do I need to change that behavior?
Do I need to do something different with that?
(41:16):
No, I think that carrying the shovel is using your listening ears and being aware
and looking for those openings to change your behavior.
Oftentimes when I ask for a character defect to be removed,
I have more of an opportunity to see it and more of an opportunity to let it go.
(41:37):
So that's my part in it.
Thank you, Pam. That's beautiful, isn't it?
It is.
Kurt?
When I turn it over, I feel like that's the pause.
That's the shovel.
That's it. I've turned it over.
What do you do consciously? Anything?
I have to turn it over because my feelings are really strong.
(42:01):
I've practiced my whole life.
What you see and what you get a lot of times are different.
My family is like, why are you jumping on this?
It's like, well, that was coming a long time.
I'm making up for it.
I'm making up for the times I pushed it down.
But I had another thought in there.
I went around. I was stuck in step six for a very long time.
(42:25):
I mean, I was consciously in six and I was working the opposite over and over and over
until I just blew up because there was no power in it.
It was not changing me.
I'm practicing the darn opposite.
It's not changing me.
And it finally pushed me on into step seven where I think I got some power.
(42:46):
And how did you do that?
I got sick and tired.
I think that's what it's talking about right here on this conversion thing.
The conversion seems to be in this book.
You're sick and tired or you hit the wall.
It's there.
Whatever you do.
When I got into seven, I just say that out loud and think about how important is it?
And am I going to really, is this big enough deal or am I borrowing from some other incident?
(43:13):
So I guess I am thinking it through like a drink maybe or something like that.
To let it go.
But I don't know that that's the way.
But I got so disappointed in working the opposite over and over and over and feeling no results whatsoever.
I think surrender has a lot to do with it.
So would you say that you would turn it over but then you would take it back?
(43:36):
I'm asking.
I think maybe there was a big fight right there.
There was a big fight whether I was going to go one way or the other.
And if you didn't understand it was the guardian, I did kind of understand that as far as the ego.
I feel like I built my ego and many times it doesn't, most of the time it doesn't serve me.
(44:00):
Especially if we're walking around.
If we're walking around 98% of sleep, I'd be the front end of the line on that deal.
Yeah, me too.
One of the things that I do, because my higher pair has a real sense of humor,
because I'll see something that needs to be changed and I'll turn it, I think I've turned it over, been willing to turn loose of it, but then I work on it.
(44:22):
I say okay.
In other words, I say I'm going to do it.
And that's where the struggle is, is that okay, you're going to take it, but I'm going to work on it and I'm going to expect that it's going to get done.
And then finally when I get tired of it and get sick and tired of it not changing, then I surrender and then my higher power takes it away.
Wow.
(44:43):
What a joke.
Jokes on us.
Yeah, that's right.
Well, and that's my obsession then because I started trying to figure it out.
Once I get in that loop, and so I spent a number of years there figuring it out until I got sick enough to say I'd like to do seven on this, you know.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh, okay.
(45:05):
I love what you said.
That's my habit.
We're going to have to keep this and this is good.
Tim?
You know, I would admit that every once in a while I might be a perfectionist and I might have some control things.
Good.
I'm glad to hear that.
I was going to be giving a talk one time and I was talking to a friend in the program that lives in Arkansas, Bob M.
(45:36):
And, you know, I was talking about the talk I wanted to give.
And he said, you know, the best thing you can do is speak from the heart and let God do the rest.
(45:57):
He might have said, speak from the heart and God will provide the words.
I think that's probably what he actually said.
And I did that and that talk went very well.
It just flowed.
It was true.
It was genuine.
I didn't take a book with me.
I didn't take any notes with me.
(46:20):
It just, it worked.
And I gave a talk recently that I had some things that I wanted to cover and in my personal opinion there was only one part of that talk that went well.
Because I was trying to be perfect.
And I was trying to get everything in that I had in my notes.
(46:46):
And I think the only part of it that went well was actually a prayer because it wasn't in the notes.
It was just sharing from the heart and letting God provide the words.
And so I have to get rid of these old habits.
I mean, we talk about these self-defeating learned behaviors.
(47:10):
Yeah, I practice every one of them most every day to the best of my ability.
So if we aren't making any changes, nothing's going to change.
I want to talk just a little bit more, guys, on habits to defend reality.
Ernie goes on to say, the truth is that if you want to change how you feel,
(47:35):
you must change how you act and keep at it long enough until acting in a healthy manner is as comfortable as acting in a self-defeating manner used to be.
The task is formidable.
A fairly good definition of insanity might be to expect different results from the same behavior.
(47:58):
Different results can only come from different behavior, and the obstacle to consistent new behavior is almost always feelings.
Now, I'll read that last sentence again.
The obstacle to consistent new behavior is almost always feelings.
(48:19):
And that's why he says that feelings always face backwards.
In the book, he shows us how this is to work.
To be guaranteed stuck in the past is to think, feel, and then act.
So you're acting off of your feelings.
(48:41):
Now, guaranteed recovery is think, act, and then feel.
Now, let me read here what he says.
The question is, who shall decide?
Will you allow what you know to be sane, healthy behaviors, to begin to take root in your subconscious,
(49:07):
or that your guardian will automatically defend what is to your benefit?
Or, faithful to the past model, will you be unwilling to fight your way through the temporary difficulty of unpleasant feelings?
If so, you will allow feelings to dictate behavior and never journey far into stage two recovery.
(49:34):
And the journey you do make will be heavy with consequences.
If we are going to change, we have to let what we know dictate how we act.
An unrecognized, unexamined, unacceptable feeling is a madman in the driver's seat.
(49:58):
And if we don't take a good, hard look at that fact, at the habit system that is in place, we don't have a chance at changing.
Most of us have learned to avoid any feeling that makes us uncomfortable.
We interpret an uncomfortable feeling as a bad one.
So when we're uncomfortable, we usually stop the behavior that is making us feel that way.
(50:25):
And this is exactly why most people do not continue in programs of change.
So what did you guys get from that?
What I get from that is when I'm feeling uncomfortable, I'm looking for something to give me a source of ease and comfort.
And in the past, that was my drug of choice.
(50:46):
But now when I'm uncomfortable, I know that I need to do something different to change that than what I have always done in the past.
I can't look back. I have to look forward to what is it that's going to help me get rid of this uncomfortable feeling in a positive manner that has a positive consequence.
(51:13):
So you have a good understanding, or we have a good understanding, of that feelings always face backwards and that those feelings aren't necessarily valid.
That's correct. I have to stay aware of what's going on with me, or I can slip into that acting upon the feelings.
(51:40):
Well, he says it right here. If we're going to change, we have to let what we know dictate how we act.
So know and aware has to come between think and act, right?
That's right.
Because when I go on automatic pilot, people, places, and things, I'm just going to do stuff. I'm going to start acting.
And now I need to think or be awake right there in the middle of that.
(52:03):
That's right.
And that's why this has never made sense to me, because when I saw the slogan, think, I was like, you've got to be kidding me.
I can't think my way out of a paper bag. You're telling me to use that as a slogan.
And is there another word that would work better for you?
I like it now.
Okay. So you're good with it now.
I'm good with it now.
(52:24):
Okay.
This has been enlightening. And repetition is good to form habits.
We just spoke about why people do not continue in programs of change.
But when we decide to let what we know rather than what we feel dictate what we do, we're ready to formulate a program of change that will work or at least has a good chance of working.
(52:55):
Let me say this.
Habits function in a third way.
They act like emotional glasses that we wear from morning till night, like Chuck C and new pair of glasses.
It is through these glasses that we view, interpret, and evaluate our reality.
None of us really sees reality the way it is.
(53:19):
We see reality the way we are.
And sometimes that's therein lies the problem.
And that's why I think Chuck C does talk about getting a new pair of glasses.
For those of you that haven't read that, man, what a great time we've had today.
Thank you guys. Kurtz. Thank you, Pam.
(53:40):
Man, you both just brought so much to the table today.
It was really good.
Thank you.
And as far as Tim goes, thank you, Tim.
Thank you, Russell.
You are truly loved and appreciated, I'll tell you that.
This has been a wonderful exercise, and I look forward to continuing this conversation as well as all our other conversations.
(54:06):
Same here. Same here.
Thanks.
Thanks, guys.
Thanks for being here, everybody.
This has been a production of ChildrenOfChaos.net.
Children of Chaos is a forum to discuss topics related to and in concert with addiction and recovery in America.
It is not affiliated with, endorsed, or financed by any recovery or treatment program, organization, or institution.
(54:31):
Any views, thoughts, or opinions expressed by an individual in this venue are solely that of the individual
and do not reflect the views, policies, or position of any specific recovery-based entity or organization.
Thanks for joining us today. I'm Tim and I'm an alcoholic.
(00:05):
And I'm Rusty and I'm an alcoholic and this is Children of Chaos.
Good morning Rusty.
Morning Tim.
Today we're going to be continuing our conversation on Stage 2 Recovery, Life Beyond Addiction.
And before we start into today's subject matter, I want to recap where we were with our last episode.
(00:29):
We began talking about what Stage 1 Recovery is by using Ernie Larson's definition,
and that is breaking the primary addiction, getting sober is Stage 1 Recovery.
And he says that abstinence from a mood-altering chemical or a specific behavior is still just abstinence.
(00:54):
Stage 2 is not for people that think that they have outgrown the 12 steps.
It's not possible to outgrow the 12 steps, but as the program teaches,
the steps can only take us as far as we will allow them to take us.
Then we spoke about defining recovery.
(01:15):
When we define recovery, we also define what the problem or issue is,
and what needs to be done about that problem or issue, and finally, what our program is for.
Stage 2 Recovery is the rebuilding of the life that was saved in Stage 1.
(01:36):
And we went into self-defeating learned behaviors, and self-defeating learned behaviors are those that get in our way.
These are ways of thinking and acting that we have practiced and that through practice have become habits.
And in the course of time, these habits have become who we are.
(01:59):
And then there are six types of self-defeating learned behaviors.
The first of those is the caretaker. Caretakers don't just care for others, they breed dependency.
Caretakers have learned to base their self-image on how much they can do for other people.
In Stage 2 Recovery, caretakers can learn to stop playing God and allow others to take responsibility for their own actions.
(02:27):
Next is the people-pleaser. People-pleasers have learned self-esteem is based on never making anyone angry.
They must never say no or do anything that will make people go away.
In Stage 2 Recovery, people-pleasers can learn to assert their own rights and not feel apologetic about it.
(02:50):
Then we have the martyr. Martyrs have learned life only has meaning when there is plenty of suffering going on.
They court pain for the sake of normalcy.
They find ways to make sure things don't get too good.
If their relationships seem to be rolling along peacefully, they will find some way to sabotage or derail the train.
(03:17):
The martyr in Stage 2 Recovery can become people who do not need to suffer in abusive relationships.
Then we have the workaholic. The workaholics are people who have learned to base their self-esteem on activity.
Workaholics find it extremely difficult to relax.
(03:39):
In Stage 2 Recovery, workaholics can learn to feel worthwhile even though they are at rest.
Then we have the perfectionist. Nothing on earth can ever be perfect.
Perfectionists can never be happy or satisfied. The base of their self-esteem is unattainable.
And through Stage 2 Recovery, perfectionists can learn to live at peace with an imperfect world.
(04:08):
They can learn the blessed relief that comes from accepting themselves as they are, flawed, and allowing others the same right to be imperfect as well.
And finally, we have the tap dancer. The tap dancer bases their self-esteem on staying loose.
They have learned to never make a commitment.
(04:31):
Stage 2 Recovery teaches the tap dancer to stand still and be counted.
They can learn that commitment can mean freedom as well as confinement.
So Stage 2 Recovery begins not just when you're standing at the starting line, but when you've actually begun the race by beginning to deal with the underlying issues.
(04:55):
And part of those underlying issues are habits, and that is our conversation topic for today.
Once again, we have Pamela S. and Kurt W. with us today.
So let's talk about habits, Rusty.
Morning, everybody.
Morning.
(05:16):
Before we start, I'd like any comments that either one of you have about, you know, what from last week, about any feelings there about what went on for you?
I went through this in our group, Rusty, what, almost two years ago, I guess.
And so this was more than a review, and it was a good way to understand the things that were bothering me at that time, or a lot of things that are not bothering me as bad as they were then.
(05:46):
And some of them I don't think about much anymore. So I think it's doing what it needs to do.
Okay, clear. Thanks, Harry.
I like the part of Stage 2 Recovery that talks about taking another first step, because the first step in the 12-step program is about admitting powerlessness over the addiction.
(06:08):
But yet what we call in Stage 2 Recovery, the second first step, is you become as serious about our living patterns and our habits as we are about the addiction that brought us into the program in the first place.
And Stage 2 Recovery is about living.
Thanks, Pam.
To start off, Ernie talks about most of our lives, what we think, say, do, and become is a result of habit.
(06:37):
And since habits are rooted in our unconscious, they are always active, operating full blast, whether we're aware of them or not.
That's what we have to keep in mind when we are deciding to make changes.
First of all, we've got to understand that we live in habits. And then we have to understand that they are rooted in the subconscious.
(07:03):
And that's what we're going to talk about today, and how to change those habits that are self-defeating.
And we take those habits on. Usually some of the most ingrained come from childhood.
And then we just carry on with them far beyond when they're useful to us.
But we don't know that because they're in the subconscious.
(07:24):
And they also, we have the guardian that we're going to talk about, which is really the ego that keeps us stuck.
It says the fact is that what we live, what we learn, what we learn, we practice.
What we practice, we become. And what we become has consequences.
(07:46):
Many people don't realize consequences are not good or bad. They're just the result of our behavior.
Most people think that when they get in trouble, they're going to get a consequence.
They don't think about when they do something good, they're going to get a consequence.
I became aware of that. When I got here, the first sponsor that I had in AA, I came in through Al-Anon,
(08:13):
but the first sponsor that I had in AA, he told me that I grew up in a bad school and I learned good.
What that was, was all of my presupposed and unconscious type thoughts and my sing-songing that had gone on my entire life.
And we were extremely in denial in my home. And so all of that had to be broken through first.
(08:37):
I became, you know, the way I had looked at it was in these, on things that really I'm emotional about,
I kind of view that as something that could very well become some kind of underlying habit for me.
If I'm emotional about it, if I take an oath that this is never going to happen again,
(08:59):
or if I start developing resentments, then I have started to build out what I call my ego.
And when I build that out, it's hard to let any other new stuff come in without truly doing something like this,
stage one and stage two recovery.
(09:22):
You know, I think that these habits rooted in our subconscious is what the big book calls the mental obsession,
because that's where they're really deep. And I know when I first came into program,
I prayed for sobriety, for abstinence, you know, to simply help me stop practicing my addictions.
(09:45):
But today, I don't pray for that. I pray for the freedom from the mental obsession,
which is all about the feelings, the feelings that I need to indulge, whatever addiction that is at the time,
whether it's food addiction, workaholism, controlling the world or minding everybody else's business except my own.
And I believe that this mental obsession is rooted in all these feelings of being fearful and resentful,
(10:11):
feeling less than or doubtful or angry, even distraught.
And even I could become overwhelmed over happiness and successes that might come into my life,
and because it made me feel uncomfortable. And when I feel that I want or I need to numb out,
this is what that was all about for me. So the mental obsession is what is the crux to the disease for me.
(10:38):
Wow, that's really insightful, Pam.
Well, there's also the physical side of habits, what we do.
And in breaking two of my addictions, both drinking and smoking,
there was a habit of taking my hand from the table or a surface to my mouth.
(11:07):
With the drinking, it's taking the glass to the mouth, and that is ease and comfort.
And it was the same thing with the smoking, because I'm taking my cigarette from, quote unquote, the ashtray to my mouth,
smoking, putting it back. And those are very hard habits to break, and those habits were developed over time.
(11:35):
And once the drinking was gone, the smoking was gone, the habit of taking my arm from my hand from the table to my mouth was still there.
Right.
And so, changing addictions for a while, if you will, I bought a six-pack of stylus, and I used those styluses to go,
(12:05):
I kept it in my hand just like I would have a cigarette, and was doing that, and I was sucking on that stylus.
And eventually, I wasn't doing it as much anymore, and now I have no stylus.
But any time that craving comes to repeat that addiction, I get out my stylus.
(12:30):
I can defeat habit or that behavior in just a moment.
It's not just the mindset. We've trained our bodies to act in a certain way, and that is an important habit as well.
And you know, AA does a great job of saying, it's like you've got to change the people, places, and things where you're going.
(12:55):
It's like I couldn't keep going to the bar, which had been a habit for me for 30-some years, right?
And that's what I did. I was addicted to going to the bar. I mean, it was an ingrained habit.
And when I got to AA, they told me, hey, you've got to quit doing those sorts of things.
So what I replaced my old habit with was I changed my habit to go into AA meetings every day.
(13:23):
That's what I did, and that's what everyone has done, whether they realize it or not.
The added part is that there are some of us, we have a habit of doing that, but we are become addicted to that.
Some of us, about 10% of us are alcoholics or addicts, right?
(13:44):
And so we have that obsession on top of just the your old everyday habit.
Let's talk a little bit about principles.
It says as much as 98% of what we do is the result of habit, not choice, but habit.
(14:05):
It says, of course, not all habits are bad habits. Now, this is something we've got to remember, too.
Our very best traits are also habits, self-enhancing habits,
and they become habits the same way our self-defeating behavior habits become part of us by practice.
(14:26):
Now, is it easy to change? No. But if you take on a habit, you can also change that.
And there's those self-enhancing habits that you want to stay with.
And so we've got to separate the negative from the positive.
And habits save us a lot of time because, you know, otherwise we'd be thinking about,
(14:49):
OK, now I have to go brush my teeth. Now I have to read my devotionals for the day.
But once I have those habits, they're just automatic and can take place without a lot of conscious energy.
And so habits do serve a purpose.
It goes on to say that whatever we do consistently will become a habit.
(15:11):
To a large extent, we don't choose our habits, or at least we didn't.
They just came upon us. As children, it could be a circumstance where every time I would be loud and obnoxious,
I would get in trouble for that. So I learned how to not be that way.
(15:33):
And I took that on. And it became a habit, a very strong habit for us.
But we don't even recognize it because, as Ernie tells us, it's all in the subconscious.
And also what we practice, we become good at.
And some of us that are obsessive-compulsive become real good at it to an extent that it can harm us.
(16:00):
See, that's when a habit becomes a self-defeating behavior,
when it starts to interfere with everything else that I'm doing.
The habits were strong. In fact, many of them were compulsions.
I was going to do it just the way it was.
Also, under principles, it talks about now he is not asking questions about them,
(16:24):
but looking at himself and the habits that run his life without his knowledge or permission.
To me, that is almost phenomenal.
Have you ever been driving your car and you might, you wake up and all of a sudden you've gone three miles down the road
(16:46):
and you don't even know it. And you wonder, well, how did I do that?
Well, that habit had taken over the driving. And that can be troublesome at times, especially when, and I've done this.
You come out of it and you come back into the moment and I'm about to rear end a car.
I've actually done that. So I know that that's what happens.
(17:09):
And I'm doing all of this on the subconscious.
Millions of people are walking around every day doing what they do,
and they don't even realize that it's all coming out of their subconscious, that the habits are self-defeating.
I call it autopilot.
And some people never stop to examine their motives or why they do things. They just stay on autopilot.
(17:35):
That's right. And you will usually hear that saying, well, I've just always been this way.
When they really haven't always been that way.
They just don't remember when they took on the habit. They were very, probably very young.
And children especially are so impressionable from that age is five up to eleven and twelve.
(17:58):
They're all so impressionable. Everything that's coming at them is new.
And they're learning from their parents what is permissible and what is not.
And then that child takes it right out into the world.
It's a never ending circle. And you've got to break that circle.
(18:19):
They have to get out of that cycle. But most people don't do that.
They don't know how to do that. So they stay stuck.
Ernie Larson uses the thermostat. Do you want to read it?
Sure. The fundamental difference between thermostats and thermometers has often been noted.
(18:40):
Thermostats control the environment. Thermometers merely record it.
Our habits are our personal reality thermostats.
They ensure that the environment stays comfortable by compelling us to act exactly the way we see ourselves.
(19:01):
So what happens is our personal thermostats. Each one of us has a personal thermostat.
Yeah, that's meant to keep us comfortable.
They are ingenious and powerful as our deepest selves.
For that is the source of their power.
The function of this subconscious self, which some call the robot,
(19:24):
and some liken to the program fed into a computer, is merely to defend.
I call this thermostat the guardian, since its sole role is to judge, assess,
or make vague judgments about this being healthy or not.
Merely to defend. Now, what are we really talking about here?
(19:47):
Well, we're talking about the ego. And the ego always wants what it wants.
It never wants for me my highest and best good. It just wants what it wants.
You know, until I can become aware of this going on constantly in my subconscious,
I don't have a chance of changing this thing.
(20:10):
But once I see that when I start to balk and make up excuses,
that's the guardian pulling me back. And really what it actually is, is my ego.
And I'm doing battle with my ego constantly when I'm in recovery.
It creates doubts in our mind.
(20:31):
Thank you, Pam. And can you remember any doubts that you've had about something that you've tried to do?
And then you've got people, too, that will tell you, oh, you can't do that.
And then your guardian just eats that up.
Well, Pam told me that I couldn't do that, you know, so I might as well not even try.
I want to step back a second to the thermostat and the thermometer.
(20:56):
Sure.
My body has a desired external temperature, and that external temperature, it's what I like.
When I use my thermostat in relationship to my thoughts,
(21:18):
I want to keep my thermostat at any place that I'm comfortable.
I don't want to go into situations that are going to cause me discomfort.
I don't want to be too comfortable and too relaxed, because if I'm too comfortable and relaxed, I become complacent.
(21:45):
And if I become complacent, I tend to go back to old habits.
That's right.
So if I keep myself in a place that is comfortable yet not complacent,
I have my thermostat in the right place for me in the actions I'm taking in the world.
(22:11):
I just wanted to share that.
That's great.
That's great.
I have one thing, too.
Yeah, go ahead.
Just a second ago, you were asking direct questions, do I remember this or that.
We get too close to a subject, and my guardian will just shut me down.
I've got air for brains.
How will it do that?
(22:33):
I'll tell you where it comes from.
My dad was an attorney.
If he asked direct questions, I'm sure Zach was not going to answer them.
So instead of just defying him, I will just shut it down.
Which you are defying him.
Yeah, I just like, well, I can't tell you.
I don't know.
So that's been a problem when I get into it.
(22:55):
So you carry that on in your life.
Yeah.
Right.
Is that right?
Right.
So I'll go to a seminar or something, they'll start asking direct questions, boom, I'm gone.
It's just awful.
But I know it now, and so I can stay with it, I can pray, and start doing some different things that way.
What would be the next step in that?
(23:17):
You've identified the guardian, right?
Yeah.
The seagull is out to get you.
So what is the new behavior that you need to take on to put that other one behind you?
Well, I think practice the pause and relax and take it easy, and then take a brand new start at those questions.
(23:39):
Yeah.
Because I'm going to say something wrong, something weird is going to happen.
You know what I mean?
So now you're getting deeper with when you're able to do that, you're getting deeper into what the cause is now.
Yeah.
And you know it's a self-defeating behavior for you.
Yeah, absolutely.
If I was in that position, which I have been, if I'm trying to overcome that, my deal would be to try to answer the question.
(24:06):
Because my fear is always that I'm going to be wrong.
Pam, you've got a lot of good stuff written there.
Anything you want to share?
Just some of my experiences with when I pray for this freedom from the mental obsession, what I find I receive is the gift of reasoning thought.
And if thoughts drive our emotions and our feelings, which I've been told that they do, then my recovery process is to harness my thoughts,
(24:35):
which means that I'm focusing on the principles and the steps and the traditions of the program.
And I find that the slogans are one of the easiest ways to keep certain thoughts in my mind rather than focusing on my triggering emotions.
For example, in my food addiction, if I see a certain food on the menu or at the grocery store,
(25:00):
it may from time to time trigger a past emotion of satisfaction from indulging or binging on that item.
And that'll lead me into some very unhealthy actions.
But if I engage my thinking mind and remember that purchasing that food is not a solution for me anymore,
I can successfully avoid going down that rabbit hole and avoid having a slip or a relapse.
(25:26):
My thoughts then allow my emotions of happiness, freedom, and joy from the obsession kick in and lead me back to where I want my actions to be,
which is in recovery, living in serenity and some peace of mind.
These are the feelings that I really want.
But I had to decide to reach them through my thinking process and not through any emotional pulls and triggers.
(25:51):
So that's how it works.
And it also works in my Al-Anon program.
It's a little bit more difficult because I'm dealing with people and so many emotions about wanting to be helpful to them, other people wanting to be.
And so what I'm trying to do is find a balance between co-dependency and being of assistance.
(26:15):
And because sometimes I have a very, very deep compulsion to help people, whether they ask me for help or not,
and then trying to decide in a situation, and I do this over and over again with family members, is how much am I actually helping them?
What will the results be?
And what can I do that makes me feel like I'm available and supportive, but not so much doing so much that I feel resentful or taking advantage of or compulsive about it?
(26:48):
So it works in all areas of my life.
Boy, that's great.
That's really good.
I love that.
You know, I have a question about the mental obsession.
When I start focusing on a mental obsession, which I guess I don't even actually have to focus on for that obsession to be there,
(27:09):
I tend to create unreasonable expectations, and then I wind up with premeditated resentments.
And so for me, the mental obsession or the ego is not my friend a lot of the time.
(27:31):
Does that happen with you when that mental obsession comes in and you start avoiding things because of it?
Well, I think one of the reasons I'm not an alcoholic is because I don't like being out of control.
I'm a control freak.
So when I have that mental obsession, my mind is out of control.
(27:52):
And so I want to rein it back in.
But it's fearful for me because I don't want to go there because I know that depression and suicidal thoughts can be right behind it for me.
And I don't like that situation.
That's why I work really hard.
(28:14):
That healthy fear kind of drives me sometimes to stay right in the middle of recovery.
And I don't know if that answers your question or not.
Yeah, very much so.
I think what follows the mental obsession is a habit.
Yes, absolutely. That action of going on a binge.
(28:38):
And with the habit, I'm never thinking about what I'm doing, and therefore my mind is not in control.
And you said when my mind's out of control, it leads to destructive behaviors.
And one of the things that Ernie's trying to show people is that you have to become aware of this stuff.
(29:03):
Awareness is the key.
That's right.
Otherwise, we're powerless over it, like Step 1 says.
Absolutely.
And what I hook into with this for me is the spiritual action that anytime I'm upset, no matter what the cause, something's wrong with me.
So instead of that, I have to become aware when somebody confronts me about something, I've got to know that the last thing I need to do is react.
(29:33):
Because the habit, which is in the subconscious, I automatically will react and never give it a thought.
But then once that I react and I spew that venom out on somebody, automatically my conscience comes in and goes,
Man, you've done it to yourself again, Rusty.
(29:54):
You know, I've embarrassed myself.
I've done whatever you want to say.
So we have to become aware of what we're doing so that I can change these behaviors.
Well, when I go into obsession and I'm ready to do that habit, it's I'm going to do that habit.
(30:15):
I mean, it's that strong because there's no consequences.
I don't see the consequences.
I don't think about the consequences.
I do the thing.
And just like you said, then I'm like, Oh God, you know, so we become aware of it sooner over time.
And then to the point where we don't have to go.
And we talk about, he talks about this later in his book about, you know, how the self restraint.
(30:42):
Well, it says it in the 12 and 12 on page 91.
Nothing's going to change until the habit of self restraint becomes automatic.
Absolutely.
And that takes practice.
It does.
There's the practice.
And how this relates to the steps for me is that I'm powerless over that mental obsession until I can find a power greater than myself outside that mental obsession.
(31:10):
And to me, that's, you know, the universe has given me this this thinking brain and this reasoning ability that I have not used.
And I'm like, I lived in the subconscious.
And so I want to be consciously aware and consciously think.
And to me, that's a power outside myself, even though it's within me.
(31:32):
You know, what's amazing to me, guys, is that we have this power within us and the 12 steps.
If you really take them to the nth degree, it will show you this.
Let's think about where we came from and where we're at now.
We were changing habits all this time to be sitting at this table today.
(31:57):
It's amazing to me.
Now, the next thing we're going to talk about is habits defend reality, right?
He says the important thing to know is that feelings only face backwards.
They only know what was not what is, but what was.
(32:19):
We have sent our feelings to school a million times.
We have learned which behaviors make us feel normal and which do not.
That is why feelings cannot be our guide to a new way of life.
If we, as most people do, allow our feelings to be the sole dictator of how we act,
(32:43):
then obviously there will be no lasting new behavior,
because feelings are basing everything on past events and how we reacted to everything in our past.
The simplicity of that just, I miss it sometimes.
You left out the last thought of that.
(33:05):
Okay.
If nothing changes, nothing changes.
That's right.
This is a difficult statement to understand.
Our brain doesn't want to wrap around it because the guardian doesn't want us to hear this.
If I don't change my behavior, nothing will change.
(33:27):
And there will be consequences, the consequences that I'm experiencing now will continue to take place if I do not change the behavior.
If I change the behavior, there will be different consequences.
I can change the behavior for the worse, or I can change the behavior for the better.
(33:54):
Either way, the consequences are going to change.
That's right.
You know, one of the things that you might have heard me say before is that awareness does not equal behavioral change,
because there is, the ego is so strong within us and it's in our subconscious that, you know,
(34:16):
I've had things that I've known for years that was not really to my benefit,
but I didn't do anything to change it because there was some negative payoff that I was getting for that.
And I just, well, my drinking.
I mean, how many times did I have to go to jail?
How many times did I have to, you know, how many wives did I have to lose?
(34:40):
I mean, it's pure insanity.
Sounds just like the book.
I mean, there's 12 places where Bill should have been finished.
Exactly.
Well, I'm glad that's over, but it's not.
No.
You know, maybe one done.
Exactly.
There's a quote from James Baldwin that says,
not everything that is faced can be changed, but nothing can be changed until it is faced.
(35:08):
Right.
And you know, I love that, the awareness that the big book and the 12 and 12 have given me is the acceptance.
That I may not be able to change it.
And usually it's outside of myself.
But even that, the 12, I mean, the big book tells me what's the guy's story at the back.
(35:33):
They've changed the name of it.
Acceptance is the answer.
Yeah.
Used to be.
Yeah, Dr. Alcoholic.
Alcoholic, yeah.
When he wrote that, acceptance, one of the things that I came away with with acceptance is that you don't have to like it.
See, that's where people get stuck on acceptance.
It doesn't say you've got to like it.
You just have to accept it.
(35:55):
And when I'm willing to do that, everything changes.
Well, if we tie the awareness as not behavioral change together with Baldwin,
because I'm aware of it doesn't mean I'm going to change it.
That's right.
But I can't change it if I haven't become aware of it.
(36:19):
That's right.
So not everything that can be faced can be changed.
But nothing can change until we face it.
Right.
Until we become aware of it.
Yeah.
But the question is, how do we become aware of the self-defeating behavior?
I think they become uncomfortable.
Thank you, Pam.
There you go.
(36:40):
They don't work anymore for us as survival skills.
That's exactly what it is.
If I can go back to where I, around the time where that originated,
that habit originated, it takes a hell of a lot of power out of it for me.
Where it's easier to do something with that habit once I realize,
(37:03):
oh, I did this because of that.
I took that on to protect myself, probably.
And so I put it in there so I can take it out.
Exactly.
It gives you some power, doesn't it?
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
That's a great point.
It's about acceptance.
And when you accept something, well, then you can deal with it without emotions.
(37:25):
There it is.
I wanted to go to habits defend reality.
Let me read you a little bit here of what he says.
The second function of habits has to do with our feelings.
That's our habits first line of defense, feelings.
(37:47):
They are like the attack dogs that King Habit unleashes when he sees an enemy approaching.
The important thing to know is that feelings only face backwards.
They only know what was.
We have sent our feelings to school a million times.
(38:09):
We have learned which behaviors make us feel normal and which do not.
That is why feelings cannot be our guide to a new way of life.
If we, as most people do, allow our feelings to be the sole dictator of how we act,
then obviously there will be no lasting new behavior.
(38:33):
And if nothing changes, nothing changes.
One of the things that I try to keep in mind about feelings is, and this has been my experience,
they're fickle.
They change often and depending on what side of the bed I get up on.
And so I can't count on them.
And as for feelings looking backward, that's why meditation helps me so much
(38:59):
because I can turn loose of the past and then I am just in the moment.
And in the moment I don't need to have any feelings.
I can just be and have acceptance and freedom.
And so these practices are really helpful to me in my recovery.
That's great. I love that.
He goes on to say that the truth is that if you want to change how you feel,
(39:25):
you must change how you act and keep it long enough until acting in a healthy manner
is as comfortable as acting in a self-defeating manner used to be.
It takes practice. It means that we have to be engaged.
We just can't say, okay, I want to change this behavior and then just go about my day
(39:49):
and still acting out the old and step six will help us do that, won't it?
Yeah. Absolutely.
We're seeing, I think, in the meetings that we attend that step six and step seven
is getting a lot more notice than when I came in years ago.
(40:11):
Same for you?
Yes, and it takes time. It's not something that's just you can say it and it's done.
It takes time to develop a new habit and to allow the universe to bring in new ideas
and help us examine those things with our awareness.
Thank you, Pam. So help me out here.
(40:32):
This is an area that I still have problems with.
People say in the meeting that you just turn it over to God and that's it.
Well, I've never been able to do anything unless I take an active part in changing
or getting rid of those character defects.
(40:55):
I like that saying that God moves mountains, but he expects me to bring the shovel.
I've got to be ready and willing to do my part. That's the way I see it.
I'm not saying it's the right. Now, do I need to change that behavior?
Do I need to do something different with that?
(41:16):
No, I think that carrying the shovel is using your listening ears and being aware
and looking for those openings to change your behavior.
Oftentimes when I ask for a character defect to be removed,
I have more of an opportunity to see it and more of an opportunity to let it go.
(41:37):
So that's my part in it.
Thank you, Pam. That's beautiful, isn't it?
It is.
Kurt?
When I turn it over, I feel like that's the pause.
That's the shovel.
That's it. I've turned it over.
What do you do consciously? Anything?
I have to turn it over because my feelings are really strong.
(42:01):
I've practiced my whole life.
What you see and what you get a lot of times are different.
My family is like, why are you jumping on this?
It's like, well, that was coming a long time.
I'm making up for it.
I'm making up for the times I pushed it down.
But I had another thought in there.
I went around. I was stuck in step six for a very long time.
(42:25):
I mean, I was consciously in six and I was working the opposite over and over and over
until I just blew up because there was no power in it.
It was not changing me.
I'm practicing the darn opposite.
It's not changing me.
And it finally pushed me on into step seven where I think I got some power.
(42:46):
And how did you do that?
I got sick and tired.
I think that's what it's talking about right here on this conversion thing.
The conversion seems to be in this book.
You're sick and tired or you hit the wall.
It's there.
Whatever you do.
When I got into seven, I just say that out loud and think about how important is it?
And am I going to really, is this big enough deal or am I borrowing from some other incident?
(43:13):
So I guess I am thinking it through like a drink maybe or something like that.
To let it go.
But I don't know that that's the way.
But I got so disappointed in working the opposite over and over and over and feeling no results whatsoever.
I think surrender has a lot to do with it.
So would you say that you would turn it over but then you would take it back?
(43:36):
I'm asking.
I think maybe there was a big fight right there.
There was a big fight whether I was going to go one way or the other.
And if you didn't understand it was the guardian, I did kind of understand that as far as the ego.
I feel like I built my ego and many times it doesn't, most of the time it doesn't serve me.
(44:00):
Especially if we're walking around.
If we're walking around 98% of sleep, I'd be the front end of the line on that deal.
Yeah, me too.
One of the things that I do, because my higher pair has a real sense of humor,
because I'll see something that needs to be changed and I'll turn it, I think I've turned it over, been willing to turn loose of it, but then I work on it.
(44:22):
I say okay.
In other words, I say I'm going to do it.
And that's where the struggle is, is that okay, you're going to take it, but I'm going to work on it and I'm going to expect that it's going to get done.
And then finally when I get tired of it and get sick and tired of it not changing, then I surrender and then my higher power takes it away.
Wow.
(44:43):
What a joke.
Jokes on us.
Yeah, that's right.
Well, and that's my obsession then because I started trying to figure it out.
Once I get in that loop, and so I spent a number of years there figuring it out until I got sick enough to say I'd like to do seven on this, you know.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh, okay.
(45:05):
I love what you said.
That's my habit.
We're going to have to keep this and this is good.
Tim?
You know, I would admit that every once in a while I might be a perfectionist and I might have some control things.
Good.
I'm glad to hear that.
I was going to be giving a talk one time and I was talking to a friend in the program that lives in Arkansas, Bob M.
(45:36):
And, you know, I was talking about the talk I wanted to give.
And he said, you know, the best thing you can do is speak from the heart and let God do the rest.
(45:57):
He might have said, speak from the heart and God will provide the words.
I think that's probably what he actually said.
And I did that and that talk went very well.
It just flowed.
It was true.
It was genuine.
I didn't take a book with me.
I didn't take any notes with me.
(46:20):
It just, it worked.
And I gave a talk recently that I had some things that I wanted to cover and in my personal opinion there was only one part of that talk that went well.
Because I was trying to be perfect.
And I was trying to get everything in that I had in my notes.
(46:46):
And I think the only part of it that went well was actually a prayer because it wasn't in the notes.
It was just sharing from the heart and letting God provide the words.
And so I have to get rid of these old habits.
I mean, we talk about these self-defeating learned behaviors.
(47:10):
Yeah, I practice every one of them most every day to the best of my ability.
So if we aren't making any changes, nothing's going to change.
I want to talk just a little bit more, guys, on habits to defend reality.
Ernie goes on to say, the truth is that if you want to change how you feel,
(47:35):
you must change how you act and keep at it long enough until acting in a healthy manner is as comfortable as acting in a self-defeating manner used to be.
The task is formidable.
A fairly good definition of insanity might be to expect different results from the same behavior.
(47:58):
Different results can only come from different behavior, and the obstacle to consistent new behavior is almost always feelings.
Now, I'll read that last sentence again.
The obstacle to consistent new behavior is almost always feelings.
(48:19):
And that's why he says that feelings always face backwards.
In the book, he shows us how this is to work.
To be guaranteed stuck in the past is to think, feel, and then act.
So you're acting off of your feelings.
(48:41):
Now, guaranteed recovery is think, act, and then feel.
Now, let me read here what he says.
The question is, who shall decide?
Will you allow what you know to be sane, healthy behaviors, to begin to take root in your subconscious,
(49:07):
or that your guardian will automatically defend what is to your benefit?
Or, faithful to the past model, will you be unwilling to fight your way through the temporary difficulty of unpleasant feelings?
If so, you will allow feelings to dictate behavior and never journey far into stage two recovery.
(49:34):
And the journey you do make will be heavy with consequences.
If we are going to change, we have to let what we know dictate how we act.
An unrecognized, unexamined, unacceptable feeling is a madman in the driver's seat.
(49:58):
And if we don't take a good, hard look at that fact, at the habit system that is in place, we don't have a chance at changing.
Most of us have learned to avoid any feeling that makes us uncomfortable.
We interpret an uncomfortable feeling as a bad one.
So when we're uncomfortable, we usually stop the behavior that is making us feel that way.
(50:25):
And this is exactly why most people do not continue in programs of change.
So what did you guys get from that?
What I get from that is when I'm feeling uncomfortable, I'm looking for something to give me a source of ease and comfort.
And in the past, that was my drug of choice.
(50:46):
But now when I'm uncomfortable, I know that I need to do something different to change that than what I have always done in the past.
I can't look back. I have to look forward to what is it that's going to help me get rid of this uncomfortable feeling in a positive manner that has a positive consequence.
(51:13):
So you have a good understanding, or we have a good understanding, of that feelings always face backwards and that those feelings aren't necessarily valid.
That's correct. I have to stay aware of what's going on with me, or I can slip into that acting upon the feelings.
(51:40):
Well, he says it right here. If we're going to change, we have to let what we know dictate how we act.
So know and aware has to come between think and act, right?
That's right.
Because when I go on automatic pilot, people, places, and things, I'm just going to do stuff. I'm going to start acting.
And now I need to think or be awake right there in the middle of that.
(52:03):
That's right.
And that's why this has never made sense to me, because when I saw the slogan, think, I was like, you've got to be kidding me.
I can't think my way out of a paper bag. You're telling me to use that as a slogan.
And is there another word that would work better for you?
I like it now.
Okay. So you're good with it now.
I'm good with it now.
(52:24):
Okay.
This has been enlightening. And repetition is good to form habits.
We just spoke about why people do not continue in programs of change.
But when we decide to let what we know rather than what we feel dictate what we do, we're ready to formulate a program of change that will work or at least has a good chance of working.
(52:55):
Let me say this.
Habits function in a third way.
They act like emotional glasses that we wear from morning till night, like Chuck C and new pair of glasses.
It is through these glasses that we view, interpret, and evaluate our reality.
None of us really sees reality the way it is.
(53:19):
We see reality the way we are.
And sometimes that's therein lies the problem.
And that's why I think Chuck C does talk about getting a new pair of glasses.
For those of you that haven't read that, man, what a great time we've had today.
Thank you guys. Kurtz. Thank you, Pam.
(53:40):
Man, you both just brought so much to the table today.
It was really good.
Thank you.
And as far as Tim goes, thank you, Tim.
Thank you, Russell.
You are truly loved and appreciated, I'll tell you that.
This has been a wonderful exercise, and I look forward to continuing this conversation as well as all our other conversations.
(54:06):
Same here. Same here.
Thanks.
Thanks, guys.
Thanks for being here, everybody.
This has been a production of ChildrenOfChaos.net.
Children of Chaos is a forum to discuss topics related to and in concert with addiction and recovery in America.
It is not affiliated with, endorsed, or financed by any recovery or treatment program, organization, or institution.
(54:31):
Any views, thoughts, or opinions expressed by an individual in this venue are solely that of the individual
and do not reflect the views, policies, or position of any specific recovery-based entity or organization.
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