August 14, 2024 • 49 mins
2024 1043 Our third segment on Earnie Larsen's Book “Stage II Recovery: Life Beyond Addiction” features Pamela and Curt returning to discuss recovery demanding change, change taking place in three steps: conversion, decision, and action, the conversion experience and making the decision to change.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Thank you for joining us today. I'm Tim and I'm an alcoholic.
(00:05):
And I'm Rusty and I'm an alcoholic. And this is Children of Chaos.
Good morning Rusty. Good morning Tim.
Today we're going to continue our conversation on Stage 2 Recovery.
And before we start our topics for today, I'm going to provide a little recap.
We're discussing the book Stage 2 Recovery, Life Beyond Addiction by Ernie Larson.
(00:30):
And also a program that has been developed to go along with that.
And Stage 1 Recovery is breaking our primary addiction or addictions.
And that is getting sober.
And that is abstinence from a mood-altering chemical or a specific behavior.
(00:54):
But abstinence is just that. It's abstinence.
Without anything to go along with it, we cannot succeed in recovery.
Stage 2 is not for people who think that they have outgrown the 12 steps.
Because it's not possible to outgrow the 12 steps.
But as our program teaches, the steps can only take us as far as we allow them to take us.
(01:21):
When we define recovery, we also define what the problem or issue is.
What needs to be done about that problem or issue.
And what our program is for.
Your program cannot take you further than your own definition of recovery.
Since few people define recovery for themselves in any specific, meaningful manner,
(01:46):
they've not clearly defined the central problem or issue in their lives.
Or don't have a good idea of where their program is supposed to take them.
Stage 2 Recovery is the rebuilding of the life that was saved in Stage 1.
How did our lives come to need rebuilding?
(02:08):
The unsurprising answer lies in the social constext.
The world of personal relationships in which each one of us lives and breathes.
And have done so since birth.
Self-defeating learned behaviors are what get in our way.
These are ways of thinking and acting that we have practiced and that, through practice, have become habits.
(02:34):
And in the course of time, these habits have become who we are.
There are six categories of self-defeating learned behaviors.
First is a caretaker. They don't just care for others, they breed dependency.
They've learned to base their self-image on how much they can do for other people.
(02:57):
There's the people-pleaser that learned self-esteem is based on never making anyone angry.
And then of course we have the martyr.
Martyrs have learned that life only has meaning when there's plenty of suffering going on.
They find ways to make sure that things don't get too good.
(03:18):
And if their relationship seems to be rolling along peacefully, they find some way to derail the train.
Then we have the workaholic.
These are people who have learned to base their self-esteem on activity.
And workaholics find it extremely difficult to relax.
(03:39):
Then we have the perfectionist. Since nothing on earth can ever be perfect, perfectionist can never be happy or satisfied.
The base of their self-esteem is unattainable.
And finally we have the tap dancer. Tap dancers base their self-esteem on staying loose.
They've learned to never make a full commitment.
(04:01):
In our second episode we talked about habits.
Most aspects of our life are the result of habits.
And since habits are rooted in our subconscious, they are always active.
Whether we are aware of them or not.
What we live with, we learn.
What we learn, we practice.
(04:24):
And what we practice, we become.
And what we become has consequences, both positive and negative.
We talked about principles being related to habits.
As much as 98% of what we do is a result of a habit, not choice.
Acting out habits is not a matter of choice because habits operate outside the conscious mind where choices were made.
(04:52):
Whatever we do consistently will become a habit.
What we practice, we become.
What we practice, we become good at.
Habits are living things.
Whatever is alive will fight to the death to stay alive.
And frustration is always relative to expectations.
(05:18):
There are three roles of habits.
Our habits act as reality thermostats, ensuring that our environment stays comfortable by compelling us to act the way we see ourselves.
The function of this subconscious self, referenced by Ernie Larson as the guardian, is to judge, assess, or make value judgments about this habit being healthy or not.
(05:47):
The second function of habits has to do with our feelings.
The important thing to know is that feelings only face backwards.
They only know what was, and thus feelings cannot be our guide to a new way of life or behavior.
And if nothing changes, nothing changes.
(06:09):
If we're guaranteed to be stuck in the past, then we are thinking first, feeling next, and then acting.
We are thinking, feeling, and acting.
However, the process necessary for recovery requires that we must think, then act, then feel, rather than staying stuck in the past where we think, feel, and act.
(06:43):
Habits help us define what is normal for us.
They determine how we view, interpret, and evaluate our reality.
None of us really sees reality the way it is.
We see the reality the way we are.
If we are not on guard when new data conflicts with old habits, we tend to opt for one of three outs.
(07:07):
We invalidate the new information, we invalidate the source, or we remove ourselves from the source of the conflicting data.
When we give in to any of the three outs, we stay in the past.
So here we are, and we've made it today, and with that, I'm going to turn it over to Rusty.
(07:32):
Thanks, Tim.
Before we get started, I just want to introduce again Pamela.
Good morning.
Glad you're here, Pamela.
Thank you, Kurt.
Good morning.
We're going to start on page 46, and the word there is change.
That's the word that I don't know of very many alcoholics, addicts, food addicts, whatever, like that word change, because it takes action.
(08:01):
So that's what we're going to be discussing.
We're going to start right off.
I'm going to read what Ernie Larson, who wrote this, says right off the bat.
Recovery is and demands change.
Recovery means that things have to be different than they were.
It means that I have to be different than I was.
(08:24):
All change is about changing habits, which is why a basic understanding of habits is important.
Understanding of habits is essential to understanding and ultimately initiating change.
With that, he also talks about there are three changes that have to happen in this sequence.
(08:47):
There has to be a conversion.
There has to be a decision.
And there has to be action.
And so we're going to go through that today, and we're going to talk about each one of those.
And we'll start off with conversion.
That needs to come first.
It says, in my experience, we do not change until we have some kind of awakening to the fact that we are going to lose something we are not prepared to live without if we do not change.
(09:22):
Ernie calls that awakening a conversion experience.
I think that we've all had it.
Can anybody, can either one of you give me an example of a conversion that happened to you in your recovery?
Well, for me, I think it was the gift of desperation.
I had exhausted all of my own ideas about how to run my life and control my addictions.
(09:49):
So it was kind of like the last straw that finally something happens that I just realized I can't do it anymore.
It's kind of an aha moment.
And not just in my thinking, but it's kind of in my gut, a spiritual awareness that I think the conversion for me was to be open-minded and to maybe consider some other power outside myself to help solve my problems and to lead me and guide me.
(10:15):
It reminds me of those transformer toys that, you know, you rearrange the parts to turn them into something new and use them for a different purpose.
And I feel like after this conversion that I'm starting to rearrange my thinking and rearrange the energy that I have in my life.
And to me it's like seeing the light and being in the light.
(10:38):
Kurt, you got anything?
A little bit here.
For me, I got sick and tired of being sick and tired.
And I would also refer to that as hitting the wall.
I've done all I can. I can't fix this.
And basically it caused me to go where people were talking about recovery and doing something different than what they've been doing.
(11:01):
I wanted to do it all by myself and I couldn't.
Well, and that's what Ernie Larson talks about, that conversion. And that experience happens when we hit that wall that you talk about.
And hard enough, now it's got to be hard enough that our perceptions are altered.
(11:25):
My perception of whatever I'm trying to change has to be, I have to see another perception of that before I'm willing to make that change.
Whereas a lot of those things that I have not changed is that I'm conflicted because a lot of them have helped me in the past.
(11:49):
But the whole point of change is that we come to see that those things that used to help us are now working against me.
And that's the ones that I have to look at.
But my perception about that, first of all, I have to have that awareness.
I've got to be aware that it's not working. This is not working for Rusty anymore.
(12:12):
I'm sick and tired, waking up sick and tired doing this.
And what's amazing to me is that we can do this for literally years.
And not want to even look at that. Not being willing to look at that.
I have a question. Are we talking specifically about a conscious decision to change?
(12:39):
Or could it be an unconscious decision?
That's a good point because usually everything starts in the unconscious.
But it only gets our attention when it reaches consciousness.
So I can't make a decision to change until it becomes conscious.
Now you can feel some gnawing going on. We've all felt this, right? Would you agree with that, Pat?
(13:05):
Absolutely.
Kirk?
Yes.
Because you can feel that something's not right. You can feel that.
Well, that to me now is the unconscious working towards your consciousness.
And then finally that perception begins to change.
So when what was unconscious became conscious was when I hit my jumping off point.
(13:32):
When you hit the wall.
When I hit the wall. And I decided that I can't go on living the way I'm living.
My life has become unmanageable. I can't continue to live with alcohol.
But I don't know how I'm going to do it without it. But the decision to make a change was there.
(13:57):
That's right.
And then in the conscious example, with my health issues and my lung issues,
and the determination of whether I will do a lung transplant or not,
I wound up with contempt after what we call investigation rather than contempt prior to investigation.
(14:23):
And I made up my mind that I do not want to go through with this process because of what's going on in my mind.
But I made the decision to change that way of thinking and do everything that this transplantation team has told me to do
(14:45):
in case when it gets to that point in my life that I have to make that decision.
Maybe I will have changed my mind that I can do that if I desire instead of holding to my,
I don't want to do that now and eliminating that as a possibility.
When we were talking earlier and Pam was telling us about this individual that we all know that has had a terrible time,
(15:14):
been in and out of the hospital near death at times, and she was giving some examples and you said,
I don't think I would do that. And what I wanted to say, but I just said keep my mouth shut,
was that it may be different when it gets down to your own, am I going to die if I don't do this?
(15:37):
See, that's really hitting the wall there.
Now you're in more, I believe, intellectually you're saying certain things,
but when you get down to it, it's fish or cut bait, you may change your mind.
And that's why I made the decision to do everything they told me to do
(16:01):
so that changing my mind is a possibility if I'm a candidate at that point in time.
That's right. Now the other thing that happens, if I could say this for you, is that you're big in control.
No, I'm not.
(16:24):
I think for you to survive through this, you have to have control because that's what's going to keep you going to some extent.
I think it's important to have choices and to feel like you have that control, to make the choices for yourself.
And being informed is part of being prepared to do that.
(16:46):
Yes. Like in the big book where the guy says, contempt prior to an investigation leaves a man forever in ignorance.
Those are the people that just, if I'm going to get upset with somebody, that's when it's going to do it.
That's what's going to trigger me because if you're, you know, don't tell me this until, have you investigated this?
(17:13):
You know, then come back and talk to me.
But to make a decision just because that's what pops into your head.
Well, I also like it in the book when it says, you know, something to avoid is saying, this I will never do.
For me, that's an oath and I kill myself right there.
Absolutely.
(17:34):
And that's the same thing, only on a different level.
And I don't know how much of this you want to use, Tim, when you start editing, but I think it's really good, it's a really good process.
That's why being open-minded is one of our basic tools.
Right.
(17:55):
Amazing.
Now, Ernie goes on to say, some people's conversion experiences are accompanied by lights and whistles.
Others' experiences are as quiet and simple as an evening breeze.
But the core of the experience is that enough is enough.
(18:16):
Enough is enough.
When I get to that point, that's when I'm going to change with something.
Very few people just get up one morning and say, you know, I think I'll go whatever they're dealing with.
Although it does happen.
I think that's very apparent sometimes in my Al-Anon program where I'm dealing with other people.
And I'm trying to decide whether to help them or not again.
(18:43):
And then sometimes there's just that last straw that I'm done.
And I'm going to keep that relationship light and cheery and not get into depth about their problems and trying to bail them out.
And that's hitting the wall, isn't it?
I mean, that's when you've had enough.
I've had that experience with some of my children.
(19:04):
I've had that experience where I just get to, you know, and the light bulb does come on.
There are times as a human being that I am conscious of something that I need to change.
And I'm conscious of it maybe for years.
(19:25):
Mine was my, for me, was one of those that Ernie talks about in here, and that's Tap Dancer.
That was one of mine.
Because the payoff, man, it just was so good until it wasn't.
But even after it wasn't, even when I would tap dance out of one into another relationship,
(19:50):
because I was aware, I had all these awareness and I had all the program, you know, my years of working the steps in me,
it just took all the fun out of it.
And I was a long way away from drinking.
When we talk about change and are we ready to change, have we hit the wall?
Ernie Larson always says, so often the ready response is, oh, but it's going to hurt so much and it's going to be difficult.
(20:19):
And he says, if you're saying those kind of things, as you contemplate change, the chances are good that you haven't hit the wall yet.
You haven't hit the try.
Where the only thing you can do is make the decision to change.
Yes. And that's different for everyone.
True.
Because of the way that we're all different and we're all made up differently.
(20:45):
He does say in here that, this is about what we're talking about, guys, down there on page 50, next to the last paragraph,
a curious and mysterious phenomenon comes into play here.
It's amazing how much people are prepared to lose before they're willing to do anything to affect change.
(21:06):
How much are you prepared to lose is an extremely important question.
How much pain are you prepared to feel before you are ready to do something that can really make change happen?
I always wonder how long I can skate by just doing the minimum and trying to make changes without really making a wholehearted commitment.
(21:29):
Exactly.
Because I want to see what I can get by with.
And just not taking into consideration that it takes what it takes and I'm not given and willing to do what it takes.
Yeah. And at that point, we have, we've become strong enough within ourselves to overcome the ego because that ego is what's keeping us from it.
(21:57):
It wants what it wants and it wants it right now.
There's no negotiating with the ego.
You're just, you're just.
That bargaining thing doesn't work.
It doesn't bargain with it.
It's like trying to bargain with God. It don't work.
(22:18):
Well, for me, it's been a kind of a process where I talked about in one of these sessions that had a tendency to bring my business life down on my head after everything starts going really well.
And the thoughts that come with that and in not wanting, maybe in not wanting to face it.
(22:39):
But anyway, I was in denial until the fourth time that that happened.
And when I saw it for what it was, and then I looked back over my career, I've been doing it forever.
So the denial had come in there and I was vague on ever making a decision about doing anything except doing things one day at a time.
(23:01):
Yeah. And when you would do that, how did you feel about yourself?
When I would do which part?
Not make that decision?
I was wishy washy and I would run totally by my feelings.
Did you not feel conflicted?
(23:22):
I did. And that's what I think would play into that being sick and tired of being sick and tired. It was just going around and around and around.
That in a way is one of the things that wears us down.
Another lap.
Yeah, one more lap.
Oftentimes when we're conflicted and that subconscious is trying to bring something to our attention, we just push it down with our addictive behaviors.
(23:49):
And ignore it and try to say, well, I don't want to go there. It's too much work to work on it.
That's right.
I had another thought too. I've never had it this good. I don't need to go any further.
I'll just sit down right here. And I never knew I was like that until this program.
Well, I've got a buddy that is in the program and he said to me, I said, you know, this would be a good book at the age that we're at that you might want to read.
(24:20):
He says, you know, I'm at a place that I've gotten everything I wanted now. I don't think I need to look anymore.
And I thought, wow, what a place to be. For me, it's like there's always more.
Yeah. Well, my motivation behind sitting down was fear. I really want to go any further because oh my God, what could happen?
(24:46):
Things are going just about okay right now.
At the bottom down here at 52, he talks about conversion experiences are spiritual realities.
And I'm going to read here a little bit. By that, I do not mean that they are religious, but spiritual in the sense that they aren't rooted in reason.
(25:10):
There is something deeper going on than just the rational does this make sense approach.
Sure, it makes sense and is smart to stop drinking or stop smoking or stop seeing this person who continually cuts you down.
It makes all the sense in the world, but that doesn't mean that all the sense known to God or man necessarily makes any difference.
(25:36):
So what does and when when it is time, it is time.
And that's what I have a problem trying to decide when is enough enough.
I see people a lot in the work that I do that when I see them, they they should have had enough in my thought pattern where you should have had enough six months ago.
(26:01):
But that's not the case. Each person has to make that decision themselves.
And for the challenge for me is to be able to work with them and let them know that I understand where they're at.
And because they can only move it there at the pace they're going to move.
I'm surprised, often surprised when I read Bill W's story.
(26:24):
I would have quit four times before he quit, you know, and it's like, well, good, he's he's finally done.
And he was he wasn't everybody has the time that my dad, my own dad killed himself, left the bar, walked across the street, went up to his room, laid down on his bed and slid his wrist and killed himself.
(26:51):
And I thought many, many times there had to be a time if I'm to believe anything in the books and the material that we read and believe in that the grace, God's grace was there at some time for him.
He had to be he must have had a choice at some time.
I can't believe that the God of my understanding would just not he would be the only one that was never given grace. If that makes sense.
(27:21):
Once he passed that point, could he not hear sanity at all?
You know, that that's the stuff that used to run around in my head a lot.
I was thinking about this as a process a minute ago because these things that no longer work for us is exactly what alcohol did. It was our solution for such a long time.
(27:42):
And here we have these things that stop working for us.
And what if you're older and all beat up and you have that and you realize, oh, my God, here I am.
And I get what happened. You know, you got a choice. Yeah. Probably at that point. I don't know. Had he been around recovery? No, no, never.
(28:05):
And that makes a great segue into what we're going to talk about next, which is changes versus change.
And we're on page 53 midway down the page. There's a vast difference between changes and change.
Making some changes means that you're merely doing the same old thing in a different way.
(28:30):
Same play, new stage. Change means doing something that is really different.
So different it can't be accomplished without breaking through the old patterns.
If there is no war with the guardian or our ego, chances are you're not involved in change. Absolutely.
(28:54):
And so an example of making changes would be switching from scotch to beer.
The example of making a change would be stopping drinking altogether. A radical change. Great example. Yeah. Great example.
In my food addiction, the example there is going on this diet, this program for weight loss.
(29:25):
And that's just doing something in the same old thing in a different way. But what actually doing something totally different is turning it over to a higher power.
And asking for help and guidance in that area and being relieved of the mental obsession.
Whereas otherwise I'm just trying to control the food in a different way. Correct.
(29:51):
Also under that same thing, at the end of that, he uses on that next page on 54, he also talks about the people pleaser and the tap dancer.
And for me the tap dancer is the one that I would like to read. It says, the tap dancer needs to stand still and say,
here I am, all of me, no hustle, no half truths, no backdoor escapes. This is me and here I am. Here I make a commitment.
(30:24):
And I can remember when I did that. It says, sure, the very thought is enough to make us howl in agony.
But change, doing something truly different is the only way old patterns were overturned. And that's what you just were saying, Tim.
And for me I can remember after the last tap dance that I put on a recital for, it just wasn't the same.
(30:52):
And I knew I had made a conscious decision that I'm not going to live my life this way anymore.
And I was 12, 13 years sober when that finally I got to that point. And so when I met Julie Ann, she's the only woman,
and you guys know her and I've been married to her 24 years now, she's the only woman, I was married three times before,
(31:19):
and I say that for the folks out there that don't know, that I was ever monogamous with. How does that happen? How do you just do that?
Well, it was because of this program and the way that I, the spiritual life that I was trying to live with my life.
And this is all spiritual. Every bit of what we're talking about is spiritual.
(31:41):
What the benefit of that was is Rusty started liking Rusty. The inside of me started matching the outside of me.
And there's so much self-worth in that for me. I can't tell you how much. It stands above anything for me.
To know that I have been monogamous in that relationship, I've loved this woman, I've given it every bit of it.
(32:07):
And it's never too late because I was 58 when she and I started that journey.
I'm in the same situation because my husband was 57 when I met him and he was faithful to me for 35 years until he passed away.
And it was just a joy to live in that relationship knowing that I was special and I see that in you and Julianne because you just adore her and she puts up with you.
(32:40):
And that's the truth. Then there's that, isn't it?
There's one thing I think that we need to make sure we bring about and that is that change is unique to an individual.
Changes are not unique to any one person. So if I'm switching my alcohol, everybody and their dog has done that and it hasn't worked.
(33:14):
But what works is the change that is unique within me, within my heart, within my mind frame. And it can only happen to me and for me.
And I cannot wish upon or make somebody else change, even though it will be good for them.
(33:42):
And every one of us here is or has been in the program of Al-Anon and we've had a loved one near us that we've wanted to be able to accept sobriety in whatever form or fashion that is.
And no one person can change another. I'm going to read page 54. No one person can change another because the first step of change is conversion and no one can have another person's conversion experience.
(34:16):
It's unique. That's the unique part. Even though you are so sure that what you see is truth is the truth, even though you're watching someone you dearly love self-destruct right before your very eyes,
still with all the anguish and hurt that goes along with it, you cannot have anyone else's conversion experience. There was nothing you could do to save your father.
(34:47):
There was nothing you could do to change his mind. There is nothing I can do to make someone else choose sobriety or anything else. It's not just about sobriety. I can't make another person change to fit my needs.
And even today when you say that, and I know it is a truth, I know that's a truth, but the majority of the people don't really understand that.
(35:22):
I mean, how long has it taken me to really believe that? Pam, you've been around quite a while.
A while. And one of the consolations for me is that I'm judging them and where they should be, or I see that I think they're self-destructing, but I don't know.
I have to set aside what I think I know to let God work in the universe. And if I'm not judging them, then I can love them just where they are and do my best to do that.
(35:56):
That's what I think my purpose is, to share my experience, strength, and hope, and maybe see if that will help with the conversion experience, or maybe what they're going through, they're still heading toward that wall that they have to hit.
And I don't want to interrupt that either. And whether they get there or not is not up to me.
(36:18):
And it's always amazing when that happens to me. I would never have guessed that so-and-so, that would be their wall that they hit.
We talk about enabling, and his definition is, enablers are those who shield others from the consequences of their own irresponsible behavior.
(36:44):
And if we do that, they cannot have their own unique conversion experience, change.
Thank you. And parents especially will continue month after month, year after year, hoping that what they do this time is going to work.
And it never works, but they keep doing it out of fear. It's fear. It's always fear. Fear that that child is not going to make it, that they're going to die in the process.
(37:19):
So they can't look at this. They can't look at what the truth is. Have any one of you had that experience?
Well, for myself, I know that I always thought that my biggest defect was people pleasing.
And I realized probably just this morning that I have manipulated and skewed my way into many things. I don't want to take it on head on.
(37:46):
And part of it was enabling. I mean, I can, from growing up in the family that I grew up in, I can sit down with someone that especially has some glaring character defects.
And I can bolster those for them, make them feel really good about the fact that, you know, make them a hero of sorts for being a James Dean or something.
(38:07):
So that's, you know, I learned early on, though, in even just trying to get my dad back to bed because I couldn't face it, you know, when he'd be passed out on the floor.
I wasn't going to be able to enable anybody into a lot of stuff.
I did come up with a deal that needs more work was dad had told me that he was a martyr and he was horribly embarrassed about being a martyr.
(38:32):
And he knew that from going to Valley Hope. And I had always just dismissed that I'm not a martyr. And that's not true.
It may be worse than the people pleasing. So I got some work to do.
Part of a part of change is the actual decision to make the change.
(38:53):
And I want to just briefly go back to, you know, change happens, but it doesn't happen just because you become aware of something that's going on for you that you don't want.
Or you think that it's being something that is hindering you, but there's still some payoff in it. So we see this a lot.
(39:18):
We see people that they're aware that they need to change something, but it doesn't equal out to them actually changing.
And any time that I'm in that place where I'm in like I'm in between, I'm in the hallway and I've opened one door and I'm headed towards the other.
(39:42):
But it could take me a long time to get to that end of that hallway because I'm not.
Sometimes I stop along the way and will go to sleep before I reach that other that other doorway to open that other door.
And that's when the change happens, when I open that other door and step through. So it can take a long time.
(40:06):
I'm conflicted the whole time I'm in that space and we all do that.
So decisions have to be made and it has to be your decision.
I've heard in program that there's only one thing you have to change and that's your whole life.
That's it.
And that means all my attitudes, all my thoughts, all my actions and knowing that.
(40:30):
And then I have to find out what it's going to take to do that and be willing to do that.
I've used my character defect of stubbornness and we changed it into determination and perseverance.
And perseverance means that I that I keep focused on the goal and don't take my eyes off that goal.
(40:51):
And I've also learned what I don't want in my life.
And I've seen from people in recovery what I do want in my life.
And having experienced some days of serenity and peace and unhappiness and joy,
I look to those days as goals to keep perpetuating.
(41:12):
And that's what I want to see in my life.
And knowing that there's going to be some mistakes I'm going to make and because I'm not perfect and I have to deal with those.
But along the way, not to beat myself up about that, because that's a place I don't want to be.
I don't want to be down on myself.
I want to be happy that I'm a child of the universe and I don't want to be a child of chaos.
(41:36):
Amen.
This was kind of an awakening for me.
The first time I ever read this, it's on page 57.
He says, all too often when we think about making decisions,
we fall into the trap of figuring out what we are willing to do to make the change happen.
(41:58):
But it is not what we are willing to do that makes the difference.
The difference is what does it take?
A person may say, I am willing to change my reading books, going to seminars, and even filling out some of these lines.
But I am not willing to go to group.
(42:19):
And I am surely not willing to tell anybody else about what's wrong.
That kind of decision is not going to make it.
And here it is.
It is not our willingness to do something that makes the difference.
It is our willingness to do what it takes.
(42:40):
Is that subtle? But so powerful.
It's like Kurt said, never say never.
It's like you've got to do whatever it takes.
There can't be any, you know, I'll go this far with it, I'll do this much, and if it doesn't work, I'll quit.
No, you've got to do whatever it takes to change that.
(43:03):
Because you've got to know that even though you're in the conversion, the ego is still a well in life.
It's still pumping blood all that time.
It's still moving towards you because it's almost impossible to get past that.
So you have to be willing to do whatever it takes to get that done.
(43:26):
And I had never thought about it in that way before.
That was so good.
I like that on the willingness to do what it takes.
And it has to take that.
I mean, I get so uncomfortable trying to make that change or trying to take it on
that I begin to second guess myself and say, I quit.
(43:47):
Yes.
Because it's just beyond.
We think it is beyond us.
And that's the ego working against us too.
Absolutely.
I think it's important to be as serious and spend as much time, thought, and energy in my recovery
as I was willing to spend in my addictions.
(44:10):
And to me, I'm realizing I was willing to go to any lengths in my addictions.
I mean, I could go to a number of grocery stores before I could find what I wanted.
I mean, physically get in the car and drive three different locations and walk in, look around.
And nope, they didn't have it.
So I go on to the next one.
(44:31):
And that's pretty determined or stubborn.
And so if I would put that much time, thought, and energy into that,
I can spend hours in reading the literature and working the program in other ways
so that I can change my attitudes and my thoughts and my feelings about my life.
(44:54):
We've covered a lot of ground today, and I appreciate everybody's input.
I want to just do a brief recap here at the end of this.
Recovery is and demands change.
Change takes place in three steps, conversion, decision, and action.
We've talked about all that, haven't we?
(45:17):
A conversion experience awakens us to the fact that we are going to lose something
we are not prepared to live without if we do not change.
That is conversion.
And lastly, and we just talked about this, a decision involves our willingness to do what it takes,
not just do something, to change.
(45:41):
You've got to do whatever it takes to make that change happen.
There's one thing in that last item.
A decision involves our willingness to do what it takes to change.
Part of that willingness to change becomes what are we willing to give up?
(46:02):
And he says, every yes is also a no.
If I am going to decide to stop drinking, for me, I have to stop hanging out in the bars.
I have to give up my old acquaintances.
I had to give up my best friend because he still exhibits those behaviors that I had to get away from.
(46:36):
So in saying yes to making the change, I had to say no to detractions from the ability to make that change.
And no one can do that for us.
We have to do it ourselves.
And it's difficult, but Ernie Larson says, but saying no is really important.
(47:05):
And as we talked about in another episode, sometimes no is a complete sentence.
And that's what it takes, is a simple no to the yes that allows us to make that conversion and change.
I just want to say the biggest thing I've said no to is self-pity and beating up on myself.
(47:30):
So that I have to have compassion for myself to be able to let things flow.
Otherwise, I'm standing in the way when I'm reprimanding myself and saying,
well, I should have done this and I should have done that and I ought to be better.
Because that's not conducive to letting this spiritual life happen.
(47:52):
It's my ego in reverse in trying to put me down.
And that's not what recovery is all about.
Kurt, any closing remarks or thoughts?
I thought it was good that they go through some of the exercises because it gets rather vague in here to me.
To come with what motivates me, what can keep me on track and not just reading another book.
(48:16):
I got so tired of just reading another book.
Right, right.
And that's just same old, same old with me.
Thank you for joining us today and especially thanks to Pamela and Kurt for being here.
And we will look forward to seeing you with our next episode.
Enjoy the rest of your day.
This has been a production of ChildrenOfChaos.net.
(48:40):
Children of Chaos is a forum to discuss topics related to and in concert with addiction and recovery in America.
It's not affiliated with, endorsed or financed by any recovery or treatment program, organization or institution.
Any views, thoughts or opinions expressed by an individual in this venue are solely that of the individual
(49:02):
and do not reflect the views, policies or position of any specific recovery based entity or organization.
Thank you for joining us today. I'm Tim and I'm an alcoholic.
(00:05):
And I'm Rusty and I'm an alcoholic. And this is Children of Chaos.
Good morning Rusty. Good morning Tim.
Today we're going to continue our conversation on Stage 2 Recovery.
And before we start our topics for today, I'm going to provide a little recap.
We're discussing the book Stage 2 Recovery, Life Beyond Addiction by Ernie Larson.
(00:30):
And also a program that has been developed to go along with that.
And Stage 1 Recovery is breaking our primary addiction or addictions.
And that is getting sober.
And that is abstinence from a mood-altering chemical or a specific behavior.
(00:54):
But abstinence is just that. It's abstinence.
Without anything to go along with it, we cannot succeed in recovery.
Stage 2 is not for people who think that they have outgrown the 12 steps.
Because it's not possible to outgrow the 12 steps.
But as our program teaches, the steps can only take us as far as we allow them to take us.
(01:21):
When we define recovery, we also define what the problem or issue is.
What needs to be done about that problem or issue.
And what our program is for.
Your program cannot take you further than your own definition of recovery.
Since few people define recovery for themselves in any specific, meaningful manner,
(01:46):
they've not clearly defined the central problem or issue in their lives.
Or don't have a good idea of where their program is supposed to take them.
Stage 2 Recovery is the rebuilding of the life that was saved in Stage 1.
How did our lives come to need rebuilding?
(02:08):
The unsurprising answer lies in the social constext.
The world of personal relationships in which each one of us lives and breathes.
And have done so since birth.
Self-defeating learned behaviors are what get in our way.
These are ways of thinking and acting that we have practiced and that, through practice, have become habits.
(02:34):
And in the course of time, these habits have become who we are.
There are six categories of self-defeating learned behaviors.
First is a caretaker. They don't just care for others, they breed dependency.
They've learned to base their self-image on how much they can do for other people.
(02:57):
There's the people-pleaser that learned self-esteem is based on never making anyone angry.
And then of course we have the martyr.
Martyrs have learned that life only has meaning when there's plenty of suffering going on.
They find ways to make sure that things don't get too good.
(03:18):
And if their relationship seems to be rolling along peacefully, they find some way to derail the train.
Then we have the workaholic.
These are people who have learned to base their self-esteem on activity.
And workaholics find it extremely difficult to relax.
(03:39):
Then we have the perfectionist. Since nothing on earth can ever be perfect, perfectionist can never be happy or satisfied.
The base of their self-esteem is unattainable.
And finally we have the tap dancer. Tap dancers base their self-esteem on staying loose.
They've learned to never make a full commitment.
(04:01):
In our second episode we talked about habits.
Most aspects of our life are the result of habits.
And since habits are rooted in our subconscious, they are always active.
Whether we are aware of them or not.
What we live with, we learn.
What we learn, we practice.
(04:24):
And what we practice, we become.
And what we become has consequences, both positive and negative.
We talked about principles being related to habits.
As much as 98% of what we do is a result of a habit, not choice.
Acting out habits is not a matter of choice because habits operate outside the conscious mind where choices were made.
(04:52):
Whatever we do consistently will become a habit.
What we practice, we become.
What we practice, we become good at.
Habits are living things.
Whatever is alive will fight to the death to stay alive.
And frustration is always relative to expectations.
(05:18):
There are three roles of habits.
Our habits act as reality thermostats, ensuring that our environment stays comfortable by compelling us to act the way we see ourselves.
The function of this subconscious self, referenced by Ernie Larson as the guardian, is to judge, assess, or make value judgments about this habit being healthy or not.
(05:47):
The second function of habits has to do with our feelings.
The important thing to know is that feelings only face backwards.
They only know what was, and thus feelings cannot be our guide to a new way of life or behavior.
And if nothing changes, nothing changes.
(06:09):
If we're guaranteed to be stuck in the past, then we are thinking first, feeling next, and then acting.
We are thinking, feeling, and acting.
However, the process necessary for recovery requires that we must think, then act, then feel, rather than staying stuck in the past where we think, feel, and act.
(06:43):
Habits help us define what is normal for us.
They determine how we view, interpret, and evaluate our reality.
None of us really sees reality the way it is.
We see the reality the way we are.
If we are not on guard when new data conflicts with old habits, we tend to opt for one of three outs.
(07:07):
We invalidate the new information, we invalidate the source, or we remove ourselves from the source of the conflicting data.
When we give in to any of the three outs, we stay in the past.
So here we are, and we've made it today, and with that, I'm going to turn it over to Rusty.
(07:32):
Thanks, Tim.
Before we get started, I just want to introduce again Pamela.
Good morning.
Glad you're here, Pamela.
Thank you, Kurt.
Good morning.
We're going to start on page 46, and the word there is change.
That's the word that I don't know of very many alcoholics, addicts, food addicts, whatever, like that word change, because it takes action.
(08:01):
So that's what we're going to be discussing.
We're going to start right off.
I'm going to read what Ernie Larson, who wrote this, says right off the bat.
Recovery is and demands change.
Recovery means that things have to be different than they were.
It means that I have to be different than I was.
(08:24):
All change is about changing habits, which is why a basic understanding of habits is important.
Understanding of habits is essential to understanding and ultimately initiating change.
With that, he also talks about there are three changes that have to happen in this sequence.
(08:47):
There has to be a conversion.
There has to be a decision.
And there has to be action.
And so we're going to go through that today, and we're going to talk about each one of those.
And we'll start off with conversion.
That needs to come first.
It says, in my experience, we do not change until we have some kind of awakening to the fact that we are going to lose something we are not prepared to live without if we do not change.
(09:22):
Ernie calls that awakening a conversion experience.
I think that we've all had it.
Can anybody, can either one of you give me an example of a conversion that happened to you in your recovery?
Well, for me, I think it was the gift of desperation.
I had exhausted all of my own ideas about how to run my life and control my addictions.
(09:49):
So it was kind of like the last straw that finally something happens that I just realized I can't do it anymore.
It's kind of an aha moment.
And not just in my thinking, but it's kind of in my gut, a spiritual awareness that I think the conversion for me was to be open-minded and to maybe consider some other power outside myself to help solve my problems and to lead me and guide me.
(10:15):
It reminds me of those transformer toys that, you know, you rearrange the parts to turn them into something new and use them for a different purpose.
And I feel like after this conversion that I'm starting to rearrange my thinking and rearrange the energy that I have in my life.
And to me it's like seeing the light and being in the light.
(10:38):
Kurt, you got anything?
A little bit here.
For me, I got sick and tired of being sick and tired.
And I would also refer to that as hitting the wall.
I've done all I can. I can't fix this.
And basically it caused me to go where people were talking about recovery and doing something different than what they've been doing.
(11:01):
I wanted to do it all by myself and I couldn't.
Well, and that's what Ernie Larson talks about, that conversion. And that experience happens when we hit that wall that you talk about.
And hard enough, now it's got to be hard enough that our perceptions are altered.
(11:25):
My perception of whatever I'm trying to change has to be, I have to see another perception of that before I'm willing to make that change.
Whereas a lot of those things that I have not changed is that I'm conflicted because a lot of them have helped me in the past.
(11:49):
But the whole point of change is that we come to see that those things that used to help us are now working against me.
And that's the ones that I have to look at.
But my perception about that, first of all, I have to have that awareness.
I've got to be aware that it's not working. This is not working for Rusty anymore.
(12:12):
I'm sick and tired, waking up sick and tired doing this.
And what's amazing to me is that we can do this for literally years.
And not want to even look at that. Not being willing to look at that.
I have a question. Are we talking specifically about a conscious decision to change?
(12:39):
Or could it be an unconscious decision?
That's a good point because usually everything starts in the unconscious.
But it only gets our attention when it reaches consciousness.
So I can't make a decision to change until it becomes conscious.
Now you can feel some gnawing going on. We've all felt this, right? Would you agree with that, Pat?
(13:05):
Absolutely.
Kirk?
Yes.
Because you can feel that something's not right. You can feel that.
Well, that to me now is the unconscious working towards your consciousness.
And then finally that perception begins to change.
So when what was unconscious became conscious was when I hit my jumping off point.
(13:32):
When you hit the wall.
When I hit the wall. And I decided that I can't go on living the way I'm living.
My life has become unmanageable. I can't continue to live with alcohol.
But I don't know how I'm going to do it without it. But the decision to make a change was there.
(13:57):
That's right.
And then in the conscious example, with my health issues and my lung issues,
and the determination of whether I will do a lung transplant or not,
I wound up with contempt after what we call investigation rather than contempt prior to investigation.
(14:23):
And I made up my mind that I do not want to go through with this process because of what's going on in my mind.
But I made the decision to change that way of thinking and do everything that this transplantation team has told me to do
(14:45):
in case when it gets to that point in my life that I have to make that decision.
Maybe I will have changed my mind that I can do that if I desire instead of holding to my,
I don't want to do that now and eliminating that as a possibility.
When we were talking earlier and Pam was telling us about this individual that we all know that has had a terrible time,
(15:14):
been in and out of the hospital near death at times, and she was giving some examples and you said,
I don't think I would do that. And what I wanted to say, but I just said keep my mouth shut,
was that it may be different when it gets down to your own, am I going to die if I don't do this?
(15:37):
See, that's really hitting the wall there.
Now you're in more, I believe, intellectually you're saying certain things,
but when you get down to it, it's fish or cut bait, you may change your mind.
And that's why I made the decision to do everything they told me to do
(16:01):
so that changing my mind is a possibility if I'm a candidate at that point in time.
That's right. Now the other thing that happens, if I could say this for you, is that you're big in control.
No, I'm not.
(16:24):
I think for you to survive through this, you have to have control because that's what's going to keep you going to some extent.
I think it's important to have choices and to feel like you have that control, to make the choices for yourself.
And being informed is part of being prepared to do that.
(16:46):
Yes. Like in the big book where the guy says, contempt prior to an investigation leaves a man forever in ignorance.
Those are the people that just, if I'm going to get upset with somebody, that's when it's going to do it.
That's what's going to trigger me because if you're, you know, don't tell me this until, have you investigated this?
(17:13):
You know, then come back and talk to me.
But to make a decision just because that's what pops into your head.
Well, I also like it in the book when it says, you know, something to avoid is saying, this I will never do.
For me, that's an oath and I kill myself right there.
Absolutely.
(17:34):
And that's the same thing, only on a different level.
And I don't know how much of this you want to use, Tim, when you start editing, but I think it's really good, it's a really good process.
That's why being open-minded is one of our basic tools.
Right.
(17:55):
Amazing.
Now, Ernie goes on to say, some people's conversion experiences are accompanied by lights and whistles.
Others' experiences are as quiet and simple as an evening breeze.
But the core of the experience is that enough is enough.
(18:16):
Enough is enough.
When I get to that point, that's when I'm going to change with something.
Very few people just get up one morning and say, you know, I think I'll go whatever they're dealing with.
Although it does happen.
I think that's very apparent sometimes in my Al-Anon program where I'm dealing with other people.
And I'm trying to decide whether to help them or not again.
(18:43):
And then sometimes there's just that last straw that I'm done.
And I'm going to keep that relationship light and cheery and not get into depth about their problems and trying to bail them out.
And that's hitting the wall, isn't it?
I mean, that's when you've had enough.
I've had that experience with some of my children.
(19:04):
I've had that experience where I just get to, you know, and the light bulb does come on.
There are times as a human being that I am conscious of something that I need to change.
And I'm conscious of it maybe for years.
(19:25):
Mine was my, for me, was one of those that Ernie talks about in here, and that's Tap Dancer.
That was one of mine.
Because the payoff, man, it just was so good until it wasn't.
But even after it wasn't, even when I would tap dance out of one into another relationship,
(19:50):
because I was aware, I had all these awareness and I had all the program, you know, my years of working the steps in me,
it just took all the fun out of it.
And I was a long way away from drinking.
When we talk about change and are we ready to change, have we hit the wall?
Ernie Larson always says, so often the ready response is, oh, but it's going to hurt so much and it's going to be difficult.
(20:19):
And he says, if you're saying those kind of things, as you contemplate change, the chances are good that you haven't hit the wall yet.
You haven't hit the try.
Where the only thing you can do is make the decision to change.
Yes. And that's different for everyone.
True.
Because of the way that we're all different and we're all made up differently.
(20:45):
He does say in here that, this is about what we're talking about, guys, down there on page 50, next to the last paragraph,
a curious and mysterious phenomenon comes into play here.
It's amazing how much people are prepared to lose before they're willing to do anything to affect change.
(21:06):
How much are you prepared to lose is an extremely important question.
How much pain are you prepared to feel before you are ready to do something that can really make change happen?
I always wonder how long I can skate by just doing the minimum and trying to make changes without really making a wholehearted commitment.
(21:29):
Exactly.
Because I want to see what I can get by with.
And just not taking into consideration that it takes what it takes and I'm not given and willing to do what it takes.
Yeah. And at that point, we have, we've become strong enough within ourselves to overcome the ego because that ego is what's keeping us from it.
(21:57):
It wants what it wants and it wants it right now.
There's no negotiating with the ego.
You're just, you're just.
That bargaining thing doesn't work.
It doesn't bargain with it.
It's like trying to bargain with God. It don't work.
(22:18):
Well, for me, it's been a kind of a process where I talked about in one of these sessions that had a tendency to bring my business life down on my head after everything starts going really well.
And the thoughts that come with that and in not wanting, maybe in not wanting to face it.
(22:39):
But anyway, I was in denial until the fourth time that that happened.
And when I saw it for what it was, and then I looked back over my career, I've been doing it forever.
So the denial had come in there and I was vague on ever making a decision about doing anything except doing things one day at a time.
(23:01):
Yeah. And when you would do that, how did you feel about yourself?
When I would do which part?
Not make that decision?
I was wishy washy and I would run totally by my feelings.
Did you not feel conflicted?
(23:22):
I did. And that's what I think would play into that being sick and tired of being sick and tired. It was just going around and around and around.
That in a way is one of the things that wears us down.
Another lap.
Yeah, one more lap.
Oftentimes when we're conflicted and that subconscious is trying to bring something to our attention, we just push it down with our addictive behaviors.
(23:49):
And ignore it and try to say, well, I don't want to go there. It's too much work to work on it.
That's right.
I had another thought too. I've never had it this good. I don't need to go any further.
I'll just sit down right here. And I never knew I was like that until this program.
Well, I've got a buddy that is in the program and he said to me, I said, you know, this would be a good book at the age that we're at that you might want to read.
(24:20):
He says, you know, I'm at a place that I've gotten everything I wanted now. I don't think I need to look anymore.
And I thought, wow, what a place to be. For me, it's like there's always more.
Yeah. Well, my motivation behind sitting down was fear. I really want to go any further because oh my God, what could happen?
(24:46):
Things are going just about okay right now.
At the bottom down here at 52, he talks about conversion experiences are spiritual realities.
And I'm going to read here a little bit. By that, I do not mean that they are religious, but spiritual in the sense that they aren't rooted in reason.
(25:10):
There is something deeper going on than just the rational does this make sense approach.
Sure, it makes sense and is smart to stop drinking or stop smoking or stop seeing this person who continually cuts you down.
It makes all the sense in the world, but that doesn't mean that all the sense known to God or man necessarily makes any difference.
(25:36):
So what does and when when it is time, it is time.
And that's what I have a problem trying to decide when is enough enough.
I see people a lot in the work that I do that when I see them, they they should have had enough in my thought pattern where you should have had enough six months ago.
(26:01):
But that's not the case. Each person has to make that decision themselves.
And for the challenge for me is to be able to work with them and let them know that I understand where they're at.
And because they can only move it there at the pace they're going to move.
I'm surprised, often surprised when I read Bill W's story.
(26:24):
I would have quit four times before he quit, you know, and it's like, well, good, he's he's finally done.
And he was he wasn't everybody has the time that my dad, my own dad killed himself, left the bar, walked across the street, went up to his room, laid down on his bed and slid his wrist and killed himself.
(26:51):
And I thought many, many times there had to be a time if I'm to believe anything in the books and the material that we read and believe in that the grace, God's grace was there at some time for him.
He had to be he must have had a choice at some time.
I can't believe that the God of my understanding would just not he would be the only one that was never given grace. If that makes sense.
(27:21):
Once he passed that point, could he not hear sanity at all?
You know, that that's the stuff that used to run around in my head a lot.
I was thinking about this as a process a minute ago because these things that no longer work for us is exactly what alcohol did. It was our solution for such a long time.
(27:42):
And here we have these things that stop working for us.
And what if you're older and all beat up and you have that and you realize, oh, my God, here I am.
And I get what happened. You know, you got a choice. Yeah. Probably at that point. I don't know. Had he been around recovery? No, no, never.
(28:05):
And that makes a great segue into what we're going to talk about next, which is changes versus change.
And we're on page 53 midway down the page. There's a vast difference between changes and change.
Making some changes means that you're merely doing the same old thing in a different way.
(28:30):
Same play, new stage. Change means doing something that is really different.
So different it can't be accomplished without breaking through the old patterns.
If there is no war with the guardian or our ego, chances are you're not involved in change. Absolutely.
(28:54):
And so an example of making changes would be switching from scotch to beer.
The example of making a change would be stopping drinking altogether. A radical change. Great example. Yeah. Great example.
In my food addiction, the example there is going on this diet, this program for weight loss.
(29:25):
And that's just doing something in the same old thing in a different way. But what actually doing something totally different is turning it over to a higher power.
And asking for help and guidance in that area and being relieved of the mental obsession.
Whereas otherwise I'm just trying to control the food in a different way. Correct.
(29:51):
Also under that same thing, at the end of that, he uses on that next page on 54, he also talks about the people pleaser and the tap dancer.
And for me the tap dancer is the one that I would like to read. It says, the tap dancer needs to stand still and say,
here I am, all of me, no hustle, no half truths, no backdoor escapes. This is me and here I am. Here I make a commitment.
(30:24):
And I can remember when I did that. It says, sure, the very thought is enough to make us howl in agony.
But change, doing something truly different is the only way old patterns were overturned. And that's what you just were saying, Tim.
And for me I can remember after the last tap dance that I put on a recital for, it just wasn't the same.
(30:52):
And I knew I had made a conscious decision that I'm not going to live my life this way anymore.
And I was 12, 13 years sober when that finally I got to that point. And so when I met Julie Ann, she's the only woman,
and you guys know her and I've been married to her 24 years now, she's the only woman, I was married three times before,
(31:19):
and I say that for the folks out there that don't know, that I was ever monogamous with. How does that happen? How do you just do that?
Well, it was because of this program and the way that I, the spiritual life that I was trying to live with my life.
And this is all spiritual. Every bit of what we're talking about is spiritual.
(31:41):
What the benefit of that was is Rusty started liking Rusty. The inside of me started matching the outside of me.
And there's so much self-worth in that for me. I can't tell you how much. It stands above anything for me.
To know that I have been monogamous in that relationship, I've loved this woman, I've given it every bit of it.
(32:07):
And it's never too late because I was 58 when she and I started that journey.
I'm in the same situation because my husband was 57 when I met him and he was faithful to me for 35 years until he passed away.
And it was just a joy to live in that relationship knowing that I was special and I see that in you and Julianne because you just adore her and she puts up with you.
(32:40):
And that's the truth. Then there's that, isn't it?
There's one thing I think that we need to make sure we bring about and that is that change is unique to an individual.
Changes are not unique to any one person. So if I'm switching my alcohol, everybody and their dog has done that and it hasn't worked.
(33:14):
But what works is the change that is unique within me, within my heart, within my mind frame. And it can only happen to me and for me.
And I cannot wish upon or make somebody else change, even though it will be good for them.
(33:42):
And every one of us here is or has been in the program of Al-Anon and we've had a loved one near us that we've wanted to be able to accept sobriety in whatever form or fashion that is.
And no one person can change another. I'm going to read page 54. No one person can change another because the first step of change is conversion and no one can have another person's conversion experience.
(34:16):
It's unique. That's the unique part. Even though you are so sure that what you see is truth is the truth, even though you're watching someone you dearly love self-destruct right before your very eyes,
still with all the anguish and hurt that goes along with it, you cannot have anyone else's conversion experience. There was nothing you could do to save your father.
(34:47):
There was nothing you could do to change his mind. There is nothing I can do to make someone else choose sobriety or anything else. It's not just about sobriety. I can't make another person change to fit my needs.
And even today when you say that, and I know it is a truth, I know that's a truth, but the majority of the people don't really understand that.
(35:22):
I mean, how long has it taken me to really believe that? Pam, you've been around quite a while.
A while. And one of the consolations for me is that I'm judging them and where they should be, or I see that I think they're self-destructing, but I don't know.
I have to set aside what I think I know to let God work in the universe. And if I'm not judging them, then I can love them just where they are and do my best to do that.
(35:56):
That's what I think my purpose is, to share my experience, strength, and hope, and maybe see if that will help with the conversion experience, or maybe what they're going through, they're still heading toward that wall that they have to hit.
And I don't want to interrupt that either. And whether they get there or not is not up to me.
(36:18):
And it's always amazing when that happens to me. I would never have guessed that so-and-so, that would be their wall that they hit.
We talk about enabling, and his definition is, enablers are those who shield others from the consequences of their own irresponsible behavior.
(36:44):
And if we do that, they cannot have their own unique conversion experience, change.
Thank you. And parents especially will continue month after month, year after year, hoping that what they do this time is going to work.
And it never works, but they keep doing it out of fear. It's fear. It's always fear. Fear that that child is not going to make it, that they're going to die in the process.
(37:19):
So they can't look at this. They can't look at what the truth is. Have any one of you had that experience?
Well, for myself, I know that I always thought that my biggest defect was people pleasing.
And I realized probably just this morning that I have manipulated and skewed my way into many things. I don't want to take it on head on.
(37:46):
And part of it was enabling. I mean, I can, from growing up in the family that I grew up in, I can sit down with someone that especially has some glaring character defects.
And I can bolster those for them, make them feel really good about the fact that, you know, make them a hero of sorts for being a James Dean or something.
(38:07):
So that's, you know, I learned early on, though, in even just trying to get my dad back to bed because I couldn't face it, you know, when he'd be passed out on the floor.
I wasn't going to be able to enable anybody into a lot of stuff.
I did come up with a deal that needs more work was dad had told me that he was a martyr and he was horribly embarrassed about being a martyr.
(38:32):
And he knew that from going to Valley Hope. And I had always just dismissed that I'm not a martyr. And that's not true.
It may be worse than the people pleasing. So I got some work to do.
Part of a part of change is the actual decision to make the change.
(38:53):
And I want to just briefly go back to, you know, change happens, but it doesn't happen just because you become aware of something that's going on for you that you don't want.
Or you think that it's being something that is hindering you, but there's still some payoff in it. So we see this a lot.
(39:18):
We see people that they're aware that they need to change something, but it doesn't equal out to them actually changing.
And any time that I'm in that place where I'm in like I'm in between, I'm in the hallway and I've opened one door and I'm headed towards the other.
(39:42):
But it could take me a long time to get to that end of that hallway because I'm not.
Sometimes I stop along the way and will go to sleep before I reach that other that other doorway to open that other door.
And that's when the change happens, when I open that other door and step through. So it can take a long time.
(40:06):
I'm conflicted the whole time I'm in that space and we all do that.
So decisions have to be made and it has to be your decision.
I've heard in program that there's only one thing you have to change and that's your whole life.
That's it.
And that means all my attitudes, all my thoughts, all my actions and knowing that.
(40:30):
And then I have to find out what it's going to take to do that and be willing to do that.
I've used my character defect of stubbornness and we changed it into determination and perseverance.
And perseverance means that I that I keep focused on the goal and don't take my eyes off that goal.
(40:51):
And I've also learned what I don't want in my life.
And I've seen from people in recovery what I do want in my life.
And having experienced some days of serenity and peace and unhappiness and joy,
I look to those days as goals to keep perpetuating.
(41:12):
And that's what I want to see in my life.
And knowing that there's going to be some mistakes I'm going to make and because I'm not perfect and I have to deal with those.
But along the way, not to beat myself up about that, because that's a place I don't want to be.
I don't want to be down on myself.
I want to be happy that I'm a child of the universe and I don't want to be a child of chaos.
(41:36):
Amen.
This was kind of an awakening for me.
The first time I ever read this, it's on page 57.
He says, all too often when we think about making decisions,
we fall into the trap of figuring out what we are willing to do to make the change happen.
(41:58):
But it is not what we are willing to do that makes the difference.
The difference is what does it take?
A person may say, I am willing to change my reading books, going to seminars, and even filling out some of these lines.
But I am not willing to go to group.
(42:19):
And I am surely not willing to tell anybody else about what's wrong.
That kind of decision is not going to make it.
And here it is.
It is not our willingness to do something that makes the difference.
It is our willingness to do what it takes.
(42:40):
Is that subtle? But so powerful.
It's like Kurt said, never say never.
It's like you've got to do whatever it takes.
There can't be any, you know, I'll go this far with it, I'll do this much, and if it doesn't work, I'll quit.
No, you've got to do whatever it takes to change that.
(43:03):
Because you've got to know that even though you're in the conversion, the ego is still a well in life.
It's still pumping blood all that time.
It's still moving towards you because it's almost impossible to get past that.
So you have to be willing to do whatever it takes to get that done.
(43:26):
And I had never thought about it in that way before.
That was so good.
I like that on the willingness to do what it takes.
And it has to take that.
I mean, I get so uncomfortable trying to make that change or trying to take it on
that I begin to second guess myself and say, I quit.
(43:47):
Yes.
Because it's just beyond.
We think it is beyond us.
And that's the ego working against us too.
Absolutely.
I think it's important to be as serious and spend as much time, thought, and energy in my recovery
as I was willing to spend in my addictions.
(44:10):
And to me, I'm realizing I was willing to go to any lengths in my addictions.
I mean, I could go to a number of grocery stores before I could find what I wanted.
I mean, physically get in the car and drive three different locations and walk in, look around.
And nope, they didn't have it.
So I go on to the next one.
(44:31):
And that's pretty determined or stubborn.
And so if I would put that much time, thought, and energy into that,
I can spend hours in reading the literature and working the program in other ways
so that I can change my attitudes and my thoughts and my feelings about my life.
(44:54):
We've covered a lot of ground today, and I appreciate everybody's input.
I want to just do a brief recap here at the end of this.
Recovery is and demands change.
Change takes place in three steps, conversion, decision, and action.
We've talked about all that, haven't we?
(45:17):
A conversion experience awakens us to the fact that we are going to lose something
we are not prepared to live without if we do not change.
That is conversion.
And lastly, and we just talked about this, a decision involves our willingness to do what it takes,
not just do something, to change.
(45:41):
You've got to do whatever it takes to make that change happen.
There's one thing in that last item.
A decision involves our willingness to do what it takes to change.
Part of that willingness to change becomes what are we willing to give up?
(46:02):
And he says, every yes is also a no.
If I am going to decide to stop drinking, for me, I have to stop hanging out in the bars.
I have to give up my old acquaintances.
I had to give up my best friend because he still exhibits those behaviors that I had to get away from.
(46:36):
So in saying yes to making the change, I had to say no to detractions from the ability to make that change.
And no one can do that for us.
We have to do it ourselves.
And it's difficult, but Ernie Larson says, but saying no is really important.
(47:05):
And as we talked about in another episode, sometimes no is a complete sentence.
And that's what it takes, is a simple no to the yes that allows us to make that conversion and change.
I just want to say the biggest thing I've said no to is self-pity and beating up on myself.
(47:30):
So that I have to have compassion for myself to be able to let things flow.
Otherwise, I'm standing in the way when I'm reprimanding myself and saying,
well, I should have done this and I should have done that and I ought to be better.
Because that's not conducive to letting this spiritual life happen.
(47:52):
It's my ego in reverse in trying to put me down.
And that's not what recovery is all about.
Kurt, any closing remarks or thoughts?
I thought it was good that they go through some of the exercises because it gets rather vague in here to me.
To come with what motivates me, what can keep me on track and not just reading another book.
(48:16):
I got so tired of just reading another book.
Right, right.
And that's just same old, same old with me.
Thank you for joining us today and especially thanks to Pamela and Kurt for being here.
And we will look forward to seeing you with our next episode.
Enjoy the rest of your day.
This has been a production of ChildrenOfChaos.net.
(48:40):
Children of Chaos is a forum to discuss topics related to and in concert with addiction and recovery in America.
It's not affiliated with, endorsed or financed by any recovery or treatment program, organization or institution.
Any views, thoughts or opinions expressed by an individual in this venue are solely that of the individual
(49:02):
and do not reflect the views, policies or position of any specific recovery based entity or organization.
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