#79: Dr. Katie Dabrowski on The Future of Physical Therapy: Training to Get Stronger, Not Just Pain-Free

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Welcome to the Choose Hard podcast.
I'm your host Cody Mcbroom. I am a father, husband,
entrepreneur and coach. And with me today I have doctor
Katie Dabrowski who is a physical therapist.
But so much more than that. When we really start to unpack
her story, her journey, her career and what she does with
her clients out of old bowl athletics out in Miami, FL.

(00:21):
This is a really, really fun conversation and really
productive in educational conversation because we dive
into her journey, which stems from everything from being a
collegiate rower and trainer, strength training, neuroscience,
psychology, then going into physical therapy and working
with patients to get them out ofpain and taking a pretty
unconventional but literally so simple approach, which was one

(00:43):
of the coolest things is how great their results are.
They're expanding and opening upnew locations.
So they're obviously amazing at what they do, but they take a
very, very simple approach. So we're going to talk about how
your psychology, your neuroscience, your body, your
athletics, your history, your movement, your environment,
everything plays a role and the pain you experience and how to
get out of pain that you have from training or from the

(01:05):
injuries you've experienced thatare keeping you from training in
the gym. Again, you're going to have a
really good time listening to this.
I had a blast talking with her and you were going to learn a
ton. So without any further ado,
let's talk to the one and only doctor Katie Dobrowski.
The greatest things in life all start with.
A challenge you. Must accept that everything is

(01:26):
hard before it gets easy. Every, every, every, everything
you want in life begins with a hard path begins with a hard
path. Begins with a all right, I am
excited for this now. I'm Mike Butcher.
I'm just gonna. I'm gonna, I'm gonna just go for
it. I'm gonna be OK with it.
Doctor Katie Dobrowski. That's perfect, yes.
I've done enough intros now where I'm like, OK, I'm somewhat
comfortable, but I'm really excited about this.

(01:48):
You or somebody we've, we've mentioned this to each other
multiple times where like mutualfriends, I keep seeing and
popping up and people in the industry that we know.
And it's it's what's so cool about this industry.
And it also makes me go, how thehell have I not heard of her
prior? To this like you know I felt the
same when we connected. I was like, this doesn't even
seem possible that our paths haven't crossed yet, but I'm

(02:10):
happy that they are now. Yeah, me too.
And I loved, I heard you on a podcast and I just, I loved
everything you were about. And it was crazy because I'm
listening and I, I'm like, I love the way she approaches
training, but also physical therapy.
And then you're, I think you hadjust gotten back from Seattle
when you were on the podcast or something.
And I was like, what the hell. Like if I were known and, and

(02:33):
then I'm looking at your pictures.
I went to your Instagram, so your pictures and it was like
you were talking about the mountain.
And I was like, it's literally right there from where I'm.
At right there. Crazy.
But just consuming your content and listening to some podcasts
and stuff you've done. And I was just, I was blown
away. I was like, this is an amazing
person that I need to have on the show to dive into this
topic. And I'm really, really excited

(02:54):
to jump into this selfishly for my own benefit and knowledge.
But also usually that means the audience is gonna get a lot out
of it too. So real quick, just give a brief
introduction. Who is Doctor Katie Dabrowski?
Well, well, thank you so much. That's like everything you said.
I really appreciate that and that means a lot to me, Jeff.
So as you mentioned, I'm a physical therapist and a

(03:16):
strength coach. I'm co-owner of Old Bull
Athletics in Miami, FL. We have two locations actually
coming up on three now, which iscrazy.
We're a hybrid training and rehab facility where kind of our
main goal is if you walked in, you wouldn't know if somebody
was training or doing rehab. We're very movement based.
We don't really think that there's a difference between the

(03:37):
two. It's just kind of the entry
point and the lens that you're using to help somebody through
movement. A big motivating factor for
everything that we do at Old Bowl with our phenomenal team.
Our team is full of rehab providers who are dual
credentialed as strength and conditioning and performance
specialists too. We have everybody from physical
therapists to rehab Kairos to athletic trainers to strengthen
conditioning coaches. And for us, I don't really care

(04:00):
about the letters after your name.
I care more about ideologically what you're passionate about.
Do you drive your decisions based off of creating like
physiological adaptation and making somebody just like have
an awesome time? If you answer yes to those
things, like you're perfect for our team.
And a big passion of us, of oursis, you know, creating this
experience in healthcare that people didn't know was possible.

(04:23):
One that's all about them, one that is fun, one that isn't
overly medicalized for no reason.
So many injuries, like don't have to be about a specific
diagnosis. So many injuries are so much
more of that. Like did you do too much too
soon or did you do not enough for too long?
Did you do way too much for too long?
Like it's a lot more about that.So that's what we're really

(04:44):
passionate about. Old bull.
That's the stuff that like gets me so excited for everything
that we get to do. And you know, my, my past is
kind of rooted in psychology andneuroscience and I was in the
research world for a while and taking a lot of that and, and
really helping my clinical practice as well as just what
like the atmosphere that I care about at old Bull feels like

(05:05):
it's all rooted in those types of principles.
So that's that. That's a little bit about our
background. I love that.
You know, it's it's crazy too, because so I've had two knee
surgeries. I've tore my meniscus twice.
And so like I've had surgeries and I've had different injuries
that didn't require surgery, butI've been to PT multiple times
and before I owned a gym and like 2 doors down is a physical

(05:31):
therapy, which is not why I showchose this location.
But it's interesting because I remember even being a trainer,
going to physical therapy and then just never doing the stuff
that they told me to do 'cause Ijust wanted to lift, you know?
And it was boring. I was like, I don't want this
band and I don't feel like doinga million abductions and all
this crap, right? And and then I'd watch like my

(05:51):
dad had hip surgery and replacement and I would be
pushing him and on him and on him and I was better about
helping clients and family and people like reminding you stuff.
But I watched him all the time and now I'm doing some rehab
with the PT because some dry needling and just some movement
stuff. I have some shoulder aches and
pain. I mean, I've been lifting for
decades. So it's like, you know, and I

(06:11):
want to do stuff like the Ultra trailer I was talking to.
You about for sure. The difference now, though, when
I just walk a few doors down, like I set up my appointments to
where I know I'm going to lift today and I'm going to do this
first. And I walk down and I finish my
PT in my gym, you know, and then, 'cause I have way more
equipment in Myspace than they do right there.
It's crazy. So the idea of you guys putting

(06:32):
that all in one place and actually being enthusiasts of
lifting is so cool. Which is why I'm not surprised
you're about to do your third location, which they're all in
Florida. Yeah, we're in all of the Miami
areas, so there's different pockets that we're kind of like
expanding more into and, and whoknows where we'll we'll be next.
It's always the joke, like everytime my fiance and I travel, I

(06:54):
fall in love with every city I go to.
And I'm always like, we could doan old bull here and he's like,
you just say that everywhere we go.
But I get, I mean, who knows what the future holds.
We have some some plans to expand for sure.
And yeah, I mean, I hear you. I think like you alluded to
something that's really prevalent in the industry of
just like people having this idea or not even an idea, it's

(07:15):
just their experience that physical therapy is like
exercise light and you get the easy stuff, you're on a
treatment table or you're doing really low level stuff.
And something I often talk aboutwith people is like my
frustration with physical therapy and, and rehab as a
whole is it's often this like extremely underdosed exercise
that's often like overly complicated for no reason.

(07:37):
It's kind of flashy. There's a lot of weird movements
and bands and standing on one leg and maybe doing something
kind of funky, but are we getting any sort of adaptation
out of it? And if the hallmark of strength
and conditioning is to, you know, give somebody a stimulus
that's enough to create a physiological change, I would
argue that somebody who has painand weakness and injury to a

(08:01):
muscle tissue needs that more than anybody.
And it's something that's completely lost.
And it's something that is a really big frustration for a lot
of us in the industry of like, man, if we know we need
progressive overload to like, get my squat better, why don't I
use progressive overload to makemy knee tolerate squatting
better? Like, it just doesn't make any
sense. So that's the frustrating part

(08:22):
of it, a lot of the times of this big misconception of, I
think what our jobs can be for people.
And quite frankly, like this divide between physical
therapists and rehab providers and strength and conditioning
people and coaches. Like, we have a hell of a lot to
learn from people who actually have expertise in principles of
exercise Physiology and program design and periodization.

(08:42):
If it's important for people whowant to improve their fitness,
it's definitely important for people who want to improve their
health and their injury status as well.
So that's a big issue, I would say.
You know, and this might just belike a hot take that you have on
it because I wasn't planning on asking this, but the way you
framed that made me think there's I think that there's
this. I don't know if it's just a lack

(09:04):
of awareness or knowledge aroundsports specific training.
Sometimes where like I even I had an athlete where we don't do
anything in person. But I did have an athlete coming
in here 'cause his dad approached me was like, I need
somebody who's actually understanding what's going on.
And he got hurt and it was sad, 'cause he's a star youth
football athlete, but he got hurt.
His low back, back squatting, maxing out, you know, and we

(09:28):
were having this conversation. It makes me think of like
basketball players. I would train as well.
And it's like, what business do you have, especially if you're
that tall doing astrograph squats, when you don't do that
when you're jumping on a court, you know, So like sports
specific isn't like dribbling ona Bosu ball.
It's horse production, you know,But like when I think of you go
to PT and let's say we're doing like external rotation on my

(09:51):
shoulder or something with a band and then they're like, OK,
everything's good now. And then I go back in the gym or
I go play my sport and maybe I do external rotation on my
shoulder. But it's ballistic, it's
uncontrolled, it's reactive, it's there's the resistance is
just so much different. So I might not be understanding
this probably, but is there a carryover where it's like, I
don't know, actually like once you prepare it that way, you're

(10:12):
fine once you get there? Or is your guys's goal to start
almost like, OK, now let's ramp up the intensity, the
reactiveness, make it ballistic stuff in the gym so that it's
actually productive when they get back to their sport, if that
makes sense. 1,000,000% yeah. I think the the way that we work
at Old Bull is, you know, most people who come to us are the
people who say like I've tried everything, I've tried it all.

(10:32):
And then when we kind of dig a little bit deeper, they've
actually never really tried justlike really good strength
training and they haven't reallyexposed their body, their tissue
or their whole body to the many,many, many types of demands that
would be present in somebody's day-to-day life as well as the
sport that they play. So for us, like a big thing, you
know, my, my main goal when I meet with somebody and when we

(10:53):
meet with people at old Bowl is people who are experiencing pain
with a certain issue and they have goals to get back to
playing a sport or CrossFit or whatever it might be.
I want that first session to really help us find like, OK,
here's kind of all of the thingsthat we know you can do without
provoking your symptoms. And I present that to them as
like a hell yeah, here's the stuff that you're a rock star

(11:15):
at. And then you can continue to get
a really good training effect for.
I care about this for a lot of reasons.
Psychologically, we all know nothing is worse than being told
you can't do what you want to doand nothing is than feeling like
you can't train the way that youwant to.
I've had my share of injuries. I just had a pretty recent flare
actually. And the immediate like mental
downward spiral that I coach people through.

(11:36):
I went through of course as well.
And just like that, that what ifscenario of like, I can't lift
the way that I want to lift. Am I ever going to be able to
again? And immediately being able to
take myself out of that and remember the things that I can
do with that are not triggers alleviates a lot of that.
So I want to give people that freedom of like here's the stuff
that you can do without issues. Another reason why that's
important systemically, that training effect they're going to

(11:58):
get is going to help everything to heal too.
We get amazing neurotrophic factors and chemicals and
hormones released with exercise that are going to help
everything. So we want to find that stuff.
And then otherwise I want to find maybe, OK, the thing that
you have the hardest time with, well, can we find an entry point
today for how we can start working on that If all pressing
horizontal and vertical doesn't feel good for your shoulder?

(12:20):
Well, the thing we found that you could tolerate today is a
plank. That's our pressing right now
and we're going to grade up overand over again week over week
and progress that. So you could start tolerating
some stuff and that's kind of like the foundation for what we
do. And then from there, I
basically, unless there's like amedical necessity for me to be
hyper specific about what tissuewas bothered or there would be a

(12:43):
contraindication or something dangerous based on the tissue, I
kind of just want your shoulder to be able to shoulder.
It has to accept force, it has to produce force, it has to
rotate, it has to be able to land, throw, flex overhead,
reach behind your back ecentrically, absorb force
concentrically, produce it, be ballistic.
It has to do all of that. So throughout a treatment plan

(13:05):
with somebody, that's what we'regetting people back to doing.
And if I can't confidently say that this person, based on all
of the work that we've done together, would be able to do
that in their sport again, then I've missed something with what
I'm doing in their rehab. And you're spot on.
Like a banded external rotation might be an entry point that's
appropriate for somebody acutelyflared, or it might be the thing

(13:26):
they can tolerate right now, butit definitely can't be the thing
that we finish with in therapy. Yeah, I love that.
I it's so true too. Like I I'm like I said, I'm
going through a couple like aches and pains stuff.
And I remember it was like a week or two ago, my wife was
like, are you good? Like did anything like anything
happened to work or anything? I remember literally being like
I've been benched in like 2 weeks like.

(13:48):
Depression. And it's not even like my
favorite exercise by any means. Actually, I, I benching is cool,
but it's not like I need to bench.
But it was just annoying that I had to skip that or change that
each week in my program because my shoulder and it drove me
nuts. But I, and it for people
listening like that is belittling some of it because
I've, I've had back injuries andsometimes I don't know about

(14:12):
what the people you've seen, butthat's like one of the worst
because you can't walk or sit ordo anything without being in
pain. So it's this dull pain that
you're just constantly with. Now I, I want to get specific to
your expertise and what you do with old bull and everything.
And, but the first thing I have to because we keep saying old
bull, where did that come from? Like what?

(14:34):
Is that everybody always asks yes.
So my business partner, Frankie Tilford, he's the founder of Old
Bull and he is a, a former football player at USC.
He's a badass. He's an exercise physiologist,
an amazing trainer. And he started Old Bull in 2015
when he was at Equinox and kind of realized he's like, I can do

(14:54):
something more individualized, more boutique and really give
people the experience that I want to.
And that's how he created Old Bull.
It was just him and some kettle bells and like the back dark
corner of like a Pilates studio that he was renting space from.
And then we met in 2019 and partnered and that's where we
are now. So Frankie is the brainchild for

(15:16):
the name Old Bull. And it's kind of, it's
multifactorial and what it meanskind of the, the first branch of
it is simple, old meaning wise bull, meaning strong.
Like we take the wise approach to kind of like this, the
foundation of strength. And the, the second approach is
kind of like, you know, there's a lot of young bulls in this
industry who do a lot of flashy stuff and they're kind of like

(15:38):
more focused on trends. We're old bulls.
We care about foundations, we care about the basics.
We want to improve people's muscle mass, get them stronger,
build their aerobic capacity, make them have fun and a
positive experience with movement.
And you know, as being in this industry for a long time,
there's nothing really fancy that has to happen for that to
occur. It's more about the the

(15:59):
foundations and the consistency.Yeah, I love that.
I I kind of popped in my head oflike, OK, there's the young buck
and they're the old bull. Yeah, that that makes sense.
But I love that that first meeting's really cool, the wise
and the strong. And that's a really good
transition into one of the questions I had for you, because
I think that actually me and Luca talked about this yesterday
is he's going on that gym is gonna be 17 years.

(16:21):
I think vigor will be open. We, my company will hit eight
years next month, which is a lot.
But then I'm sitting there with amazing.
I had a podcast with Andy a couple weeks ago and I'm like,
he's 16 years in. I'm like, it's just crazy.
All the people I talked to with that and we were talking about
how many people we've seen come and go as well in the industry.
The people that do stand the test of time, they really do

(16:43):
prioritize simplicity and the foundation stick to the
principles. And if they do implement any new
methods or strategies, it you kind of have to put the the
principles on as like a lens or a framework to say, does this
abide by the principles? Right.
So with that being said, explainyour guys's approach or thought

(17:04):
process with that because I think that we see, I'm just
going to name John because I don't care.
Like at least the stuff like Joel Sedman on Instagram.
And oh God, yeah. You got like bands going
everywhere and I'm just thinkinglike, oh, I don't want to watch
an athlete get hurt on camera orlike.
I don't. But you can't look away.
You. Can't look away and I'm waiting
for that NFL player to get injured on the field because of

(17:25):
what he's doing. But I love that you said that.
But explain your thought processand you're as a philosopher.
Yeah, you couldn't be more spot on with the stuff that like
Frankie and I and the whole teamat Old Bull are working on
constantly of, you know, something that him and I are
always really just mindful of isif we are really like the, if we

(17:46):
make the most important thing never straying from our mission,
then we're fine. And because your business can
evolve, you can have new features, you can have new
offerings. But for us, like our overarching
mission statement is to change healthcare.
And we think of that in two ways.
We think of it for providing an experience for a patient or a
client that they didn't even know was possible, but then also

(18:08):
providing a work environment fora practitioner that they didn't
know was possible. As you know, and I'm sure you've
experienced, this industry is just like burnout central when
you are rewarded for seeing morepeople only or you are, you
know, trying to stack your schedule to see as many people
as possible. In physical therapy in

(18:28):
particular, when you're in a really busy clinic and you're
expected to see like 3 patients in one hour, like that's just
the norm. And when you're fighting for
insurance companies to approve what you're doing and you're
writing these like novels for what your documentation is to
defend what you're doing, it's exhausting and it takes away
from creating that experience for your your client.

(18:49):
So that like that drives first and foremost every decision that
we make. Are we making a better work
environment for a practitioner who deserves it?
And are we making a better environment for the client who
has probably been tossed around in the medical system and like
has never gotten the answer thatthey needed?
So that is our driving factor nomatter what.
And then the kind of second portion is for, is every

(19:10):
decision that we're making for the client, is it doing two
things? Is it creating a physiological
stimulus or change? And is it creating a
psychological stimulus or change?
If the mode that I'm using to work with somebody or the
intervention isn't achieving A physiological change because
it's too low level, it's too flashy, it's not enough load,

(19:31):
it's not enough stimulus, and it's not right for us at Old
Bowl. And if we're also not operating
under the principles of trying to help people psychologically
within our scopes of practice, of course, get through a pain
experience and create this environment where they fall in
love with being at the gym and they never knew they could, then
it's also not right for us. So that drives every single

(19:52):
decision that we make. And that really clears up like
should we add this cool new feature that might on the
surface like be an easy way to make a little bit of extra
money? Or is it going to detract from
like the core values that we have?
And that's cleared up so many decision making processes for
us. My company Tailored is so, so

(20:12):
similar on so many levels, but in the nutrition world, like we
primarily nutrition coaching andone of the things we found is,
and I think there's a lot of companies that do what we do
that seem to miss this part is how much the psychological
aspect matters. You know, it, it's the nutrition
side. Like if we just get into
science, it's really simple, like performance it, it, you

(20:36):
know, it gets a little bit different, especially with like
ultra marathons and crazy stuff like that.
But realistically, like, especially with our main client,
which is trying to lose weight and get healthy, it's pretty
simple. But the psychological aspect is
what makes the biggest difference.
And you mentioned, you know, real quickly within our scope of
practice. And I'm curious because you have
a background in psychology as well.
What is that limit of scope of practice 'cause I'm, I'm just

(20:57):
thinking, I'm like, well, unlessyou're like plugging their brain
in with like you. Know in that backroom an old
bowl you don't want to know whatgoes on yeah yeah it's like the.
Matrix, I'm like, what you do. It's just, you know, it's
almost, I mean to simplify mindset coaching in a way, but
like, yeah, what can't you do, you know?
Yeah, no, that's a really good question.
So my background is purely in like the theoretical and

(21:19):
research side of things. So I don't have any credentials
or licensure to practice psychology.
I just worked with a lot of ratsand did a lot of research in
psych and neuro worlds. But what that affords me, and I
think anybody who has that background and a lot of us just
in this industry who kind of just like through experience
develop an interest in it, it gives us the lens and the
perspective to help people from an additional point of view, not

(21:42):
just physically. Because so much of what we're
doing like again, we're talking about kind of like not being
able to bench and that mentally affecting us.
Like the so much of what pain and injury is, is just our
reaction to it and the like the avalanche that it brings in our
life and the things that we can't do.
And we're not even scratching the surface of helping people if

(22:02):
we're not addressing that in some way.
But you know, there are instances where we might
encounter people who, you know, potentially they have what seems
like more of an A deeper like clinical anxiety or depression
that goes beyond what is situational for their injury
that we can work through with them.
Or maybe there are people who have trauma and fear embedded in

(22:23):
like getting back to playing their sport like that stuff that
goes beyond what we could help people with beyond very like
general things of creating a positive environment for people
and letting people have the space to share their story and
their fears and validating them and talking people through them.
But if we're coming to a point, just like if I have a client who
they're not getting relief or better in a time frame that I

(22:44):
would clinically expect where I'd say, you know what, it's not
a bad idea for us to do some imaging.
I'm going to refer you to a physician to see it to make sure
we're not missing anything. We can have those similar
conversations of like, I know that pain and injury is
extremely distressing and I'm here to support you through
that. But we have a phenomenal network
of people who can help even moreand have even more expertise
and, and maybe some of the, the mental health and the psychology

(23:06):
sides of what you're dealing with, if you'd be open to it.
So there's, it's a tough thing. It's kind of like nutrition to
where like I can give general advice and talk about, you know,
like the, the question that everybody comes in like is
creating a steroid. Like I can tell you that it's
not and tell you the benefits ofit without being a dietitian or
a nutritionist, But you want specific meal planning, if you

(23:27):
want specific macros. If you have a question about a
dietary choice that's linked to a medical condition, not my
wheelhouse, I will refer you. So it's nuanced, but there's
scenarios for sure when it's like, OK, this is starting to go
beyond the general stuff that I can help with psychologically.
I'm not going to go down in thisrabbit hole but it is mind
blowing how many people ask thatcreatine question.

(23:49):
Like I can count like probably 3of my neighbors in the
cul-de-sac. Plenty of clients that get
started just like so random. I'm like what makes people think
creatine is like? Or they're like, am I going to
get huge? And I'm like, dude, I've been
trying for decades. Like no.
Unfortunately not. It doesn't work that well.
Yeah, so good. So with, with the psychology

(24:12):
aspect in mind, and I don't knowif this would necessarily be
placebo, but I know that we findwe're almost helping people
rewrite stories. It's like the whole idea of long
day at work. I got to have a beer.
I got to have a glass of wine. And we're like, why?
And then, you know, when you start to peel it apart, you're
like, no, you're telling yourself that.
And the more you tell yourself that, the more you're going to
feel the need to and you're going to get that stress

(24:33):
response. So like, let's remove it.
Or who is it? Frank?
Frank. Hey, cool Frank, who was the guy
that in the book The Man's Search for Meaning the
Holocaust? Survivor Oh yes, yes, yes.
Yes, there's a space between stress and response or stimulus
and response, right? And it's like just kind of
spacing that gap. But in your case, I'm thinking,
if people have these limiting beliefs, does that create, is

(24:58):
there a place for you to kind ofhelp them rewrite that 'cause I,
I remember, and I don't know howvalid this is 'cause it's been
so long, but I remember somebodyI can't squat right.
And they, they really couldn't get very low without rounding
and bent over lifting their heelow stuff.
And it's like, OK, let's get on the floor, put your knees in the
wall. And we get this them in this
deep squat position. We're like, no, you can, you
just have the stability in orderto actually do it while you're

(25:19):
standing. So like now we have to work on
these things and it kind of likeopened up a channel of them to
be like, oh, I just happened to start working on things.
Do you find you're doing a lot of that with people?
Not necessarily the squat, but just in any kind of injury, you
know? Yeah, absolutely.
Viktor Frankel, I just thought came to me.
That's what it is. Yeah.

(25:40):
Yeah, I knew what you meant. Yeah.
No, you're spot on. Like, I think so much of what we
do is rewriting people's narratives of an unhelpful
narratives of pain. I think most people we encounter
their experience with pain has been pain means something is
wrong. Pain means something is broken,

(26:02):
Pain means something that there's something to go in and
diagnose and assess and fix. And like I alluded to earlier,
like the vast majority, and I say this, that kind of is a
broken record to a lot of my clients.
In the absence of trauma or red flags that are super specific
and super rare, which we screen for, most people's pain or
injury comes from kind of exposing your body to too much

(26:23):
that it wasn't ready for yet or asking it to do more than it was
currently able to tolerate. And the beauty of that is it
takes away a lot of the, the fear around pain always meaning
harm. Like that's a big, big thing
that we have to work on with people.
But also that pain is this thingthat like no matter what,
there's no action If we know that it's a lot more about like,
well, you didn't find that sweetspot of like building your body

(26:45):
up to it is actionable. And action is how we make
change. We can theorize and talk about
pain being in people's head all we want.
That doesn't help people. It makes people feel dismissed
and there's no action tied to it.
So a big thing that we work on at Old Bull and one of my
mentors is Craig Liebensen, who's a really phenomenal
chiropractor actually, who completely goes against what you

(27:07):
would think of as what chiropractic care.
And is, is very movement based, very Physiology and psychology
focused. And something that we always
talk about is, you know, it's really hard to change people's
minds. And I think a lot of pain
education or pain science or talking through the
psychological components of pain, I think that's where it
falls short because we're tryingto change somebody's mind who

(27:29):
for the past 20 years has thought truthfully that bending
over means their discs are goingto explode.
Because they've been taught their whole life that dead
lifting is bad, bending over is bad.
They had a disc herniation 20 years ago, and that's why they
still have pain. And they are wrapped up in that.
Good luck being their PT day onethinking that you're going to

(27:50):
change their mind. It's an effort in futility.
So instead of trying to force somebody to change their mind, I
want to give people such a stellar and positive experience
with movement that I violate theexpectation, expectations that
they had. I want to create an experience.
I want to do some sort of actionwhere they don't even we, I
don't even have to try to changetheir mind because I just had

(28:11):
them do a movement that was not associated with the pain that
they were convinced it was goingto be.
That creates context. The brain.
The brain likes context for something to change, for some
sort of learning to occur. If I tell somebody that
deadlifting is okay versus finding a hinge pattern that
they can tolerate day one, that's a totally different
animal and I've just won with that person.

(28:34):
So I think a big thing is instead of trying to change
people's mind, like create something in your experience
with them, a positive experiencewith movement that in itself
starts to unwind some of those those patterns and associations
that they've made and they're experiencing something that's
really, really changing them instead of telling them.

(28:54):
I love that this might be going down a route that you haven't
dug into. I don't know, just because of
the the background you have too.Is there anything, whether it's
just psychologically speaking, or it's maybe it's your nervous
system that can actually cause almost like a physical block.
Like I'm thinking of, you know, we hear things of like somebody

(29:16):
has like a black back flare, butthere was no traumatic thing.
Maybe they're really stressed, cortisol's high, their nervous
system's like really stiff and they do something they normally
always do and it's not even crazy and boom, it, it hits
them. Or, you know, I even think of,
of my left knee that I've had surgery on.
I have no pain. I can't bend that knee to get
even close to my butt. My right heel can go to my butt

(29:36):
easily and it drives me nuts, even though I don't need it
necessarily because I can deep squat, but like I can't touch my
heel to my butt on that side andthere's no pain.
It just stops. And I'm like, is that actually
an issue or is that a psychological thing?
Because there's so much placebo research that blows my mind once
you trick somebody into doing the thing, you know.
But I don't know if if it's like, is there actual

(30:00):
limitations? How much does this this neural
and physical actually like 'cause these things to stop or
prevent? Such a good question.
The answer is yes to all of it. Like it's kind of like when
people ask that like nature versus nurture debate and you're
just like yes, like it's all of it.
You can't, you can't separate the 2.
Same with our pain experience. Like absolutely there are then.

(30:24):
So if, if we just think of, if we kind of zoom out and think
really simply of what what pain is, it's a sympathetic nervous
system response. And that just means your
heightened awareness of everything.
You have increased muscle tension, your blood pressure and
your heart rate is typically going to be higher, Your
vigilance or your awareness of everything and your sensitivity

(30:44):
is much, much higher. That's a sympathetic nervous
system response. Some overlapping things of what
else is sympathetic. Being stressed out at work, a
physical or mental stress at allis a sympathetic nervous system
response. Being really tired and on edge
is the sympathetic nervous system response.

(31:05):
Being overworked, breaking up with your girlfriend or
boyfriend and being stressed outfrom that, All of that are
sympathetic nervous system responses.
So if we think of just really simply that being what's going
on, anything else we add that pathetic is just intensifying
that response and that experience.
So at the end of the day, like it's all neuro.
That's what I always tell people.

(31:26):
That's why I'm so passionate about this.
Everything is our nervous system.
Our muscle contraction is a nervous system event.
Every single thing we do is. So if you start to think of it
from that perspective, it opens the opportunity for us to
realize just how many things do impact our pain experience.
And this is always where we tried carefully though, right?
Like what I mentioned, telling people that pain is their is in

(31:47):
their head is very different than telling people that pain is
super complex and anything you're dealing with in your life
can absolutely uptick or downshift your pain response.
That is a really nice way of notmaking people feel crazy because
having physical symptoms and then trying to tell people that
it's in their head is a recipe for disaster.
Like if somebody tried to tell that to you, you'd be like, Oh

(32:09):
my God, what? Like, no, my knee hurts.
I can't get there. So there's absolutely overlap
between true biomechanical or physical or anatomical
limitations that prevent people from achieving a certain
movement as well as this like super complex, just like kind of
insanity that's going on at all times in our brains and nervous

(32:30):
systems. I think too, like, I mean, this
actually literally just happenedto me.
I have a had a pretty gnarly disc herniations back in
college. I was a rower.
And not even just the act of rowing itself, which does put a
lot of like biomechanical load and flexion and extension
repetitively. So in the back.

(32:50):
It's also like super demanding, the worst hours ever because you
have to start crazy early. And I was a college student
studying neuroscience. Like I didn't have a lot of
time. I barely slept, I wasn't eating
enough. The one night a week we could go
out, we were partying all night like this.
The poster child for who would have kind of like chronic

(33:11):
effects of a disc herniation. I haven't thought of my disc
herniation or had issues from itsince probably 2012.
And I had a flare last week. I didn't do anything out of the
norm. I was actually doing a really
low level lower body training session because I kind of
irritated my hamstring and I waslike easing back into things.

(33:31):
So I had the stress of that hamstring irritation.
We're in the works of our third location, and I'm interviewing
and hiring and I have a busy caseload and I wear a lot of
hats. It was a particularly stressful
time and I had a flare and therewas no mechanical event.
Nothing happened. There was nothing at all that
should have triggered anything. And if anything, the loading

(33:52):
that I was doing was such a low percentage of what I typically
do that it wouldn't possibly be able to explain the flare that
is in real time. A very good example of I didn't
do a movement that caused something to happen or I didn't
have a traumatic event. It was this like perfect storm
scenario of high stress and highsympathetic activity that flared

(34:14):
me up. So it's, it happens.
It's so common and it's really hard for people to to understand
because again, we think pain equals damage, pain equals harm,
pain equals a thing that I did wrong that I now need to learn
how to do right. It's.
I can relate to that because it's so my first knee injury, I
did tear it in soccer, but everything after that was never

(34:36):
anything cool ever. I grew up skateboarding,
snowboarding, playing soccer. I played men's league.
I did Muay Thai like nothing ever.
I broke my foot. I dropped a trap bar on it.
Oh my gosh. Yeah, carrying it for a client.
My meniscus tear. The second time I was rolling
out of bed to get my daughter, who was crying.
She was a baby. And it's so funny because my

(34:57):
wife's like, it's your turn. You're lying.
Like I'm like. No, Oh my gosh.
She's. Like Oh my gosh.
Then the next morning it's like a melon just huge, like, oh, we
got to go to the hospital. I'm sorry, but every time it's
something like that. Even just recently I had a back
issue and it was a kink to my neck drying, getting out of the
shower. And then that translated to me.

(35:17):
I was showing one of my lifting buddies a movement with
lightweight, but it it just set me off right.
So, but granted I wasn't sleeping enough.
It was. Yeah, and.
Like, and I think that that's, you know, you said it's all in,
you know, it's harder to say it's all in your head.
But my like one, I would love toknow how you go about getting
people out of their head or, or helping that.

(35:37):
I mean, whether it is, you know,breathing drills or stress
response or it's just like literally just educating them on
the fact of this so that they start to like lower that focus
on it. Because I do see that I think it
works both ways and there's someresearch to support this.
Some people, it is all in their head, so much of the fact where
the thing isn't even that big ofa stress, but they're creating a

(35:59):
lot of a stress response becausethey're just one of those
anxious people. And then in my case, it's always
been, I can handle all that. Like it doesn't matter.
I'm fine and I actually am in a good mood.
Everything's chill. And then it's just like your
body going, Nope, dude, like enough is enough.
So I think it goes both ways, but how, how are you going about
actually like are you working onthat with some people before you

(36:20):
even do the bulk of your guys's movement stuff?
This is such a good question. And I think everything that you
just described actually like sets it up perfectly because you
you in describing your experiences, you did have a
trauma and a true like mechanismof injury initially.
And then all this other stuff. Well, and then you dropped a
trap bar on your foot. So all this other stuff was a

(36:41):
little bit more of just like really rolling out of bed.
Like are you serious? And, and what I think that
illustrates very, very nicely isa few things.
One of them is it's really easy for people to conflate getting
older with why these things happen.
And it's so easy for us to be like, I rolled out of bed and
then I threw out my back. And instead of kind of putting

(37:01):
the pieces together of all of the additional life stressors
that you had going on that kind of set the scene for you to be a
little bit more like sensitive or susceptible to a flare or
susceptible to an injury in the 1st place.
And that's a big part of it. And people's life stress
increases exponentially throughout the lifespan, while
typically for most people, theirfitness and their activity

(37:22):
levels decrease. And it's a slow creep of that
I'm sure, especially from a nutrition standpoint.
You must talk about this ad nauseam, like all of the time.
It's that like slow lifestyle creep that tends to be a bigger
issue for people than just like the blanket statement of I'm
getting older. And that's a really hard thing
to navigate with people too, because for a long time too

(37:43):
societally, we just have this like, well, getting older is
this inevitable downward spiral and everything is going to break
and fall apart and you're like disintegrating as we speak.
And it's more that will you stoplike doing as much and stressing
your body as much physically andnow your life stresses through
the roof And that gap, it just keeps getting bigger and bigger
with each year. So that's a big part of it too.

(38:04):
And then what you also just alluded to, you're super fit,
you're active, you're strong, you're an athlete and you still
get injured. So I think the biggest thing
that we work on with people is normalizing and then humanizing
the pain and the injury experience.
I when it's appropriate not to feel the Thunder, but I always
share my injury history with people because I think people

(38:27):
come to us and just assume that we, because we're in this
industry, we do everything in quotations, right?
And that means we never get hurt.
And that couldn't be farther from the truth.
We're human. The human experience is such
that you will experience pain. Like we can't escape that.
We can't get away from that. And I think a big part of just
humanizing it and making people know that it's going to happen

(38:50):
and it's OK is a great way to navigate this.
Because if we try to create thisidea that you're only training
correctly if you're pain free and you're only healthy if
you're not in pain, I mean, who is ever not in pain?
Like we all are going to experience things here and
there. And I think that mindset shift
goes probably a lot further thanagain, trying to maybe work on

(39:14):
breathing or work on things fromlike over educating people
because I know that stuff that it's, it's I, I for sure do it
because I'm so passionate and I just want to like tell people,
but I think humanizing their experience, sharing my own
stuff. And then the biggest thing is
like starting with movement as soon as I can with somebody
who's fearful in a way that's non threatening, in a way that's

(39:35):
fun. Do I have to have APR for
somebody day one? No.
But if somebody comes in who's terrified of bending over, if I
don't start to etch away with that like day one, then all I'm
doing is kind of continuing thatnarrative of like bending over
is fine, but you're not ready for it yet.
It's too dangerous. So if I can start day one, even

(39:57):
if they isometrically are in a hinge and they're holding on to
something? That is going to go so, so much
farther than maybe a conversation that I could have
with them or maybe I could have it while they're doing it.
So we're talking about stuff, but I'm kind of tricking them
and getting them to move into positions that they think
they're scared of and giving, again, that like experience with

(40:18):
movement, I think is really likethe glue that holds it all
together. Yeah, I love that.
Is are you guys practice? Like one of the things I've
always thought about with peoplein your position is trying to
develop, I don't know if like a resilience or stiffness, trunk
stiffness is something that popsin my head, but there's
obviously more than just your core in your trunk.

(40:39):
But I'm just thinking of like, you know, when you get you have
an injury going on and you're doing the dishes and you do like
a perfect single leg hinge to get the dish and then you like
when I hurt my back, I was thinking about I mowed the lawn.
We have a big lawn. I literally did a reverse lunge.
I rotated through my thoracic spine.
I took off the like the back of the lawn, stood up like as if I

(41:01):
was doing like a Turkish get up.It was like step by step
perfectly, which I never do. But yeah, then you get injured
and then you have to do those things.
And I'm just like, OK, well, howdo we like, just like, what is
the focus to prevent the stupid injuries from happening?
Because you're never going to just do it that way all the
time. Like that can't be the
expectation for people. You have to only move in like

(41:22):
textbook perfect form all of thetime.
No, But then I think what comes with that too is even when
people do, they still get injured.
So it just shows you that prevention, I think is an effort
in futility because we just can't, I always kind of tell
people like, I can't prevent youfrom walking out the door and
stubbing your toe. I also can't prevent you from
never throwing your back out again.

(41:43):
But we can create someone who isso resilient physically and
mentally that they can tolerate A flare and maybe get through it
a little bit better. Or, you know, I think of it as
you're mentioning with kind of like when we do get an injury or
a flare, we tend to revert to moving really rigidly and moving
in a way that's like very predictable and almost like

(42:04):
trying to get that like textbookform of stuff, which is fine.
I think when we have the conversation of, of form, I like
to think of it in a few ways. Like if somebody's acutely
flared, there's probably a position that's going to feel
more comfortable for them and that's totally fine.
But when I'm training with people over the years, I've
become less and less really focused on people's position and

(42:25):
form and more on giving people options and giving people
exposures to all sorts of different positions.
Not so much in a way, we're likeday one.
All right, Karen, you've never lifted before, but we're doing a
deficit Jefferson curl. Like not going that far
necessarily, but if people are performing an exercise and

(42:46):
they're getting into a position where they feel the target
tissue that I care about that day, or they feel safe or they
don't have any symptoms or they're not reporting that they
feel uncomfortable. And maybe their position doesn't
look like what I would consider in my head.
I maybe thought I wanted it to look like, well, that's human
variability at its finest right in front of us.

(43:07):
And I've pulled away from over coaching and over queuing to
create like a position that I think I want and IA lot of
times, much to the annoyance of my clients, you know, when they
do that one Rep and they look atyou and they're like, was that
right? And I'm like, I don't know, like
play around, do a few more. You just did one like, I have no
idea. Very often I just say, we're

(43:29):
going to explore this position and kind of see what happens.
And that decreases fear of the person first and foremost.
And also, like, again, we're notdoing things that are egregious.
I'm not just Willy nilly making people do things that are going
to put them in positions that don't feel good, but giving a
little bit more wiggle room of like, letting people explore
positions and having like movement options.

(43:52):
Like, there's a million ways to bend down and pick something up.
Are we always going to be able to do it in a way that looks
like a perfect hinge? Probably not.
So I should be OK with some variability in training too.
I love that I think that like just it, it takes away some of
the rigidness or the pressure ofperfect form.
Because part of the reason I even thought of that question is

(44:12):
like, I rarely get hurt in the gym because when I go to grab a
barbell, I'm like, OK, grab the bar, bend here, pull these down,
focus on my core, pull my rib cage, hit the like I'm.
Focused, yeah. When I pick up my daughter to
throw on her shoulders, I just run up and I just throw her up
on my shoulders. I probably yeah down
differently. I don't like I you know, it's
just it's totally different. I'm not creating tension before

(44:32):
right, you know, and saying it that way makes it so much.
I, I always hear this with squats too.
It's like, well, how, what's my squat width be?
I'm like, do you know how many hip structures there are?
Don't look at the floor and justwalk right up to the bar.
What feels comfortable down? That's where your feet are.
Cool. Let's start there, you know, and
just, and just go with it, you know, is there.

(44:54):
I don't know if you even can answer this.
It's probably all of the above, but I, I, this is a question I
feel like the listeners would love to hear, especially those
who are trying to train to avoidpain, let's say, or, or train
without having more pain. Is there when we think of
resilience to avoid getting injured again and again, Do you
think there is a hierarchy as far as like, OK, we need to

(45:14):
focus on like tendon and ligament, like resiliency and,
or is it going to be muscle mass?
Is it neurological strength or is it mobility and range of
motion? Like do you think there is?
You tend to see a pattern of like.
This tends to be the most helpful thing that people either
neglect or need to work on most to.
That's a good question. Of course, the famous answer

(45:35):
that everybody always gives, like it depends, of course.
Yeah. But I will say I think a very
big overarching theme, like I kind of like to think of the
lowest hanging fruit for people.And when I think of like a
resilient person, I think of somebody who has muscle mass to
be able to absorb the force of their day-to-day life and what

(45:56):
they want to do. I think of somebody who has a an
aerobic system that is really robust and works really well.
So smaller and lighter level activities aren't immediately
making them anaerobic and makingthem work at really high
efforts. Those are two things that stick
out to me big time. Just to like really make things
simple. I think most people could afford

(46:17):
more muscle mass and I think most people could afford a
better aerobic system. I like thinking of it that way
too, because it can be stressfulwhen you work with somebody and
you maybe don't really know where to start yet if they have
a history of pain. You can feel really, really
confident though, if you generally improve their muscle
mass and if you generally improve their aerobic capacity,
you've just now improved their metabolic health and their

(46:40):
quality of their tissues. Like there is amazing evidence
of the quality of people's tissues, their bones, their
tendons, their muscles. People who are fitter, who have
more muscle mass and are more aerobic LY healthy and
metabolically fit have higher tissue quality.
They have less fatty infiltration.
They have less weird connective tissue where contractile tissue

(47:02):
should be. And if we think of that just
really logically, if your quads have more muscle mass and less
fatty infiltration and less connective tissue deposition in
them, they can just work better.They can absorb force better,
they can cushion your joint better.
And if we apply that really simple principle to everything
that we do, that clears up a lotof it.

(47:24):
I'd be hard pressed to find somebody who their flexibility
and mobility only is the thing that they need to work on,
unless they are a gymnast and they need to get in some crazy
position. But then even still, they need
to have the strength to hold it.So my bias because of science
too, is typically always going to be toward making somebody

(47:45):
metabolically healthier. And that means muscle mass and
aerobic capacity. If you check those boxes for
people, even non specifically, even if you're just generally
improving those qualities, that can go an extremely far away for
improving their overall like musculoskeletal health because
we have the evidence of their tissues literally looking better

(48:05):
and having more of what the tissue should have.
Muscle should have more muscle. It should not have more fat.
It should not have connective tissue interspersed within
muscle fibers. We know that for contractility
to be better and for its abilityto like actually cushion you and
absorb the force of what you need to do.
So if you make that your focus, you can't really go wrong.

(48:26):
That's my bias always. Like, I mean, I I really just
think like strengthening people and getting them like
cardiovascularly fitter is you can't go wrong.
Yeah. Well, I mean, that's perfect
with what we love to talk about in remote.
So that's good. I think it's it's really evident
too. I mean, in right now this the
hybrid movement is huge and I think it's great and I enjoy

(48:47):
doing both, But I also think that it's a it's a great way to
train to have like your bases covered.
But I often tell people too, if you want to be like jacked, like
some of these people you see on Instagram that are hybrid
athletes, spend some time powerlifting, bodybuilding first
like they did, which you don't see just.
See what they. Do just understand the whole
context, but it is a good point,even like I think of just

(49:08):
throughout COVID and watching myclients and family and friends
and it's like the like COVID didn't affect me whatsoever
because I am very fit. And so when I got sick, I was
like, oh, it's like a sore throat.
It's a cold deal, you know, and with injuries, it's same thing.
People who recover from injuriesquick.
I mean, like Nick Bear, I, I don't too close.

(49:29):
We got hit by a car in like nexttwo weeks later.
He's running 10 miles. I'm like, what?
But he's like a he's huge. He's a tank.
You know, it's like there's something to it.
Pregnancy. We've I've worked with tons of
pregnant women and it's like those who trained before, during
and after. It's like they're like they have
the baby, they recover, they're backed at it and they their,
their body comes back to where it was so much easier.

(49:50):
And I wish that that was a sexier thing.
For the world to talk about, I know it's hard, it's, but I
agree with you. I think of it too physically.
Absolutely like you, I, I alwaystell people, and again, I'm from
a nutrition standpoint, I'm sureyou speak of this as well.
The amount of metabolic flexibility you have as a human

(50:12):
being for having more muscle mass is so important to talk
about. And basically what that means is
the more muscle mass you've had and the more decades you've
stacked it up, the less your body is going to negatively
respond to the ups and downs of life.
Meaning suddenly eating a lot more and having a higher
caloric, caloric content or suddenly eating a lot less and

(50:33):
thinking of like, God, I'm goingto lose everything I just worked
for. Metabolic flexibility is the
ability to have fewer swings in your body composition and your
strength and your muscle mass because you stacked it up and
your body is so used to having it that suddenly eating a little
bit more or suddenly eating a little bit less isn't going to
change too much. Like that is so valuable.

(50:54):
That is why people who are entering into their 30s and 40s
and 50s who have stacked decadesof strength training have hit
the the jackpot. Like it's people who have
stacked up so many years of having a favorable body
composition and strong muscles to metabolically have a better
functioning body. Like that is so valuable.

(51:16):
And I want to shout that from the rooftops, like, I mean, I, I
was so lucky that I fell in lovewith strength training at a
young age. I've been lifting for now almost
20 years and I'm reaping the benefits of that.
Now in my 30s, I'm not having todo as much because I, I'm
maintaining instead of growing from scratch.
And that's really important. And the more we can get that
message out and get people excited about starting now, like

(51:38):
it's, it matters to start now ifyou haven't before.
And to, for people who have donethis for a lot of years to like
reap those benefits of what you've done, like that's so, so
important and empowering. And then from the psychological
side, cuz I always got to bring that in.
If you're used to doing hard stuff, training is hard.
Making yourself get up and go and do something and lift heavy

(51:59):
things that like hurt and isn't necessarily fun or say no to
other things because you have toget your workout in.
That is huge for how you attack anything in your life.
Getting injured, not only physically being able to bounce
back faster because you're a resilient human, like
physically, but psychologically being able to because you're

(52:20):
used to doing hard stuff. I don't know if we talked about
that nearly as much of just likeday in, day out, the discipline
and the ability to like be dedicated to a hard thing like
training every day. That gets us out of a lot of
really tough scenarios in our lives too.
And I think that's a very, very important, but like under

(52:41):
addressed part of of strength training.
Yeah, honestly, that's like one of the big drives with the title
of this podcast too. And we I mean, there's so much
research and a lot of it is correlative because it's it's
looking at people who work out and the rates of success in life
and business, right. But it's tremendous.
Like people who work out often and do hard things often have

(53:02):
more confidence. They have more self belief, they
have more self respect, they have higher paying jobs, they
have longer lasting relationships.
Like it's, it's across the board.
It's just, it's a really good thing.
And it's cool you said that too.Like the a really broish way
that I've said this to some clients to try to get them to
the gains. I'm like, we have to solidify
the gains, you know, like after we get the gains, we have to

(53:25):
solidify them and keep them for a while because then your body's
like, OK, I'm staying here and everything gets easier, You
know, like, oh, you go have a cheat meal.
Your body's not going to go up and down and freak out
afterwards nearly as much, you know so, but yeah.
Absolutely. The transparency is really cool
from coming from people like youand, and myself and and anybody

(53:45):
else who is in great shape and has been doing this a long time,
because I think that the contextof that, of how long you've been
training and how long I've been training stuff doesn't get put
into content enough. So people see what people do and
they don't think about they, they compared the like now and
they don't compare the bigger picture, you know, and that's
true. I'll never forget being 20
maybe, and I'm training with five dudes that are all 30 plus.

(54:10):
And I remember a point of getting frustrated and Luca,
Hugh, Akeem, these guys that I trained with, they all look
looked at me and they all said their age and like how long
they've been training. 13 years,15 years, 10 years and then I
was like 2. Yeah, just.
Shut up and you start lifting weight and I'm like, OK, I get
it. Yeah.

(54:30):
And I think, like, where social media is a blessing and a curse
for the fitness industry becauseit's making people who would
otherwise never have access to learning about strength and
conditioning learn about it, which is really cool.
But you're also seeing people who maybe you're idolizing or
want to be like, without that context of, yeah, I've been
training for 20 years hard, really, really hard, and not

(54:56):
having any time off from it in that period of time other than,
you know, the inevitable aches and pains and injuries and
travel and what have you. But I, I think that's important.
And just like I, I try to be really honest with people when
they ask about maybe wanting to do something that they've seen
me do or, you know, have body composition goals that maybe
match something that I'm workingon.
And it's like, yeah, I mean, I, I love that.

(55:19):
Like, that's amazing. I have to be honest.
I'm not doing anything special. I've just been doing hard stuff
for 20 years and that's how I'm here.
There's no magic thing that I'm eating, there's no magic lift
that I'm doing. I've just been doing really hard
stuff for a really long time andthinking of it that way, I think
evens the playing field. It's just time, Like time is the

(55:40):
biggest predictor of how people's, like, fitness success
is going to be. It's not anything beyond that.
There's, I'm sure people ask youto like, yeah, but like, what
are you eating a day? It's like, it's not about that.
It's not about that. We're stacking decades and like
starting out. That's the whole point.
Like the more you can stack, thebetter you're going to be. 100%
And I, I think the, you kind of mentioned like how important

(56:02):
just muscle is. And I, I, I think more people
need to hear that too, 'cause there is a lot of hybrid
athletes that do this. And I even think about myself,
I, somebody challenged me to do a half marathon and I hadn't run
since soccer in high school. Like I just don't run.
But I was like, OK, 'cause they were like, choose hard man.
I was like, OK, I'll do that. Like well, this really turned
around and and bit me. This is not.

(56:23):
Literally, so I had like 10 weeks or so to prep and I did it
with him who he runs marathons and we finished the half and I
think I had like a 830, some 840pace the whole time and just
crushed it. And then I did high rocks
totally fine. Like it was brutal.
I probably won't do it again because of the burpees.
But like, I think that is because like I have a foundation

(56:44):
muscle. I did bodybuilding for years.
Like that's what it was for all this and it helped me.
So there's just so much more carry over than I think people
realize, you know? Yeah, I know we're short on
time. Do you have like 5 to 10 minutes
left? Cool, Yes, I'm good.
I'm good. Yes, we're going to do just some
wrap up questions to end it. Some like personality questions,
shout out some sponsor stuff like that.

(57:04):
So the first question, we are sponsored by Jocko Fuel for this
one. So choose hard as coupon code
gets you 20% off of everything. And the question is, this is
like a personal life, like a wisdom question to come from.
You. Oh no.
What's something you saw or weretaught while growing up that
helped shaped your success today, which you feel today's

(57:27):
world has lost touch with or just needs a reminder of?
Well, this is a very good one. Oh my gosh.
Let's see. I think, let's see, I think the
biggest thing, I don't know if it was like a hyper specific
like message that was given to me, but more of just like a

(57:48):
general theme of my upbringing was just like the allowance to
be curious and to be explorativeand like really just want to
answer questions and like find out about the world.
I think it's a lot easier to getinformation these days than it
was when we were growing up. And obviously people before us

(58:09):
too. And I, I, something I try really
hard in my own life still is to just like chase curiosity and to
make that like a goal and kind of a virtue of mine.
I saw I, I urge people, even with it being super easy to like
ask AIA question and get an answer immediately to do a

(58:29):
little bit of the longer route and be curious and explore
because I, I, I think that's what turns people into
entrepreneurs. I think it's what turns people
into somebody who finds a problem and wants to solve it.
And that's really what I think, like most of us probably feel
really passionate about and finda lot of value in being a human

(58:50):
is like, you've identified a problem because you were curious
and now you're working like hellto figure out how to solve it.
And I think that's what you're doing for sure.
I think that's what we're doing at Old Bull, and there's no
better feeling in the world thanactually having a job that
aligns with what you're curious about and what you care about.
Yeah. Oh, I love that having a A7 year

(59:11):
old daughter, like just you see the curiosity in children and it
like reminds you of that. And just to echo what you're
saying with AI, because it is, it's super easy now to get
information, but there's been research showing research is
done on children, but I would assume it applies to adults.
You're like, I don't know what part of your brain literally
gets smaller, but like it is notdoing you justice to just ask

(59:36):
AI. It doesn't mean I use AII use
ChatGPT for certain things, but if you use it to give you all
the answers, it takes away from your brain's ability to actually
seek and find answers. And that's a really bad thing,
especially for children 'cause that's a part of their
development. You know, like we, I started
digging into it because my daughter was like a kid has an
Alexa and she was like, I want and I was like, yeah, no,

(59:57):
because you can just ask it anything.
I don't know how I feel about that.
And then I started doing research because that's what I
do. And I'm like, this is going to
make your brain smaller. We're not doing it.
But it's true though. I mean the, the, it's big
picture is just like what helps our brain.
I think of it as an easy way to think of it as with like
movement. So for true motor learning to

(01:00:19):
occur, which in like neuroscience world just
basically means that you can perform a movement and execute a
skill like a high level skill more automatically.
And it's just like ingrained. How that has to happen is by a
ton of trial and error and exploration.
And that's been another, as an aside, a big reason why I'm not
super into over coaching. If I tell somebody how to do

(01:00:41):
something, their brain is not creating context.
They're not having the errors orthe yeses or the Nos or the ooh,
this felt just right, this didn't feel good enough.
They're not getting those reps in to be able to create context
for their brain to solidify and actually learn the motor pattern
that you're working on. If somebody needs a checklist

(01:01:02):
every single time they do a deadlift, they haven't motor
learned at all. They're just repeating something
and like over and over again doing something that they're
doing by repetition instead of by learning.
The same thing with with researching and having critical
thinking skills. Like tools are important as
tools, but like our brains are supposed to to do the heavy
lifting. Yeah, and it's with everything.

(01:01:23):
We do the same thing with dieting.
We're like, we'll help you with the meal plan, but not unless we
have a conversation of how we came up with the meal plan and
how you can come up with the meal plan.
And we're beneath macros. But eventually you're not going
to want to track macros. So we have to teach you what
you're using these for and how to not use them.
You know, so like. 100% absolutely.
OK, this next one is sponsored by us.

(01:01:43):
So tailoredmerch.com, you can grab our journals, hats,
apparel, everything we sell on there, the personal development
stuff, and this is specific to that about a book.
I always love this because it gives me another one to add to
my book list. I'm the type that just goes
right on Amazon and buys after my guests.
Yeah. What book does everyone
listening need to read right now?

(01:02:06):
OK, I have two actually. So these are gifts that I give
to people if maybe they're goingthrough something or if I have a
team member who is maybe transitioning from old Bolts and
they're moving and they're kind of starting somewhere new to
just kind of like really solidify.
I think two big things that helppeople a lot. 1 is unreasonable

(01:02:27):
hospitality. I'm sure a lot of people have
heard of that book. It's based on the restaurant
industry, but very similar to what I was mentioning with old
will to create this just like out of this world experience for
people that is so good that it'sunreasonably good.
And you're just like violating people's expectations of what

(01:02:50):
whatever industry you're in or whatever thing you're working
on. And you're creating an
experience that goes just so farabove and beyond that you're you
stand out for that reason. It drives everything that I
think about of of I just really want the experience to be like
unreasonably good. Another one is called Range by
David Epstein. And it's it's basically all

(01:03:11):
about like being a generalist and not getting hyper fixated on
having a niche or being really, really specific.
I think that's something our industry falls victim to a lot.
This idea that like, I have to be the person who works with
stay at home moms aged 37 to 42 who have experienced this back
pain in their life and they wantto be able to play pickleball.

(01:03:33):
Like something really, really, really specific that exactly,
exactly. And I think it just pigeonholes
us and puts us into a box that is not helpful and doesn't
really let us express our our full skill set.
Being a generalist can maybe be seen as a negative thing, but I
think it's an amazing thing. I think it's, it makes you able

(01:03:55):
to adapt and help anybody that you encounter.
And I think that is so valuable.I want to be a generalist.
I want to be able to help many people.
And I also want to know when maybe this isn't something that
I'm best suited for, but I can help you work with somebody or
get to where you need to be. So those would be my
recommendations. Both amazing books.
I had my whole team read The Unreasonable Hospitality and

(01:04:18):
I've read Range and really, really enjoyed that one too.
So great choices. OK, final question of the
podcasts, which is sponsored by the trainer, our training app
and you can go train on that forfree for three weeks.
Then you got to pay if you want more, but the premium is the
premium. So that's about
taylortrainer.com. But this one is choose hard.

(01:04:39):
Like what is your definition andmaybe even your current choose
hard battle? That's very, very good.
I think for me, probably my, my current battle, I'm actually,
and I, I'm kind of stealing thisbecause I heard this on another
podcast too from some like US women's soccer athletes of Abby

(01:05:05):
Wambach is the one who said it. And I thought it was really
good. She's like, what if I'm really
good at doing the hard stuff? How do I do the not hard stuff?
And I think what you make of thehard stuff is really an
important distinction. Like, I'm good at working really
hard. I'm good at working so hard that
I run myself into the ground. I'm good at saying yes to

(01:05:26):
things. I'm good at being available.
I'm good at training hard. I'm good at pushing myself.
But I'm not very good at creating space for myself,
calming down, sitting down, maybe sometimes prioritizing
friendships and family because work is my main priority.
Just like existing in silence and not feeling like I have to

(01:05:47):
check a box or complete a task. That's a big struggle that I
have. And for me, the the hardest
stuff is the stuff that on papershould not be hard.
And I think a big thing that I've been really focusing on
over the past few years as I getbusier and busier is how do I
continue to not do the hard stuff too?
How do I show up for myself? How do I have a day that's about

(01:06:08):
me and not anybody else in this industry?
Like we get so much joy out of helping other people.
And then we start to realize, like, oh, I haven't been very
nice to myself or not even intentionally.
I haven't done something that was purely just for me.
And that is my heart. And that is what I'm trying to
work on big time. I love that it's very vulnerable

(01:06:30):
and I can totally relate. That's been, that has been me
this year and I've been better about it.
But I think it's not talked about very much.
You know, it's just slowing down, taking a break.
The huge one for me is getting an extra hour of sleep, which
literally just allows me to actually get 7 hours.
So it's not like it's getting crazy.
I was sleeping 5 to 6 for years and it's like, OK, I'm going to

(01:06:51):
not wake up at 5:00 AM every day, but which sounds like I'm a
maniac, but it is. It's important.
So I love that for people listening, like, what would you
say choose hard means if you just had to put it in a OneNote,
Like what does that mean to you?I think it means kind of no
matter how you feel, showing up for yourself and and doing the
stuff that you said you would, doing the things that are

(01:07:13):
uncomfortable, whether they are on paper uncomfortable,
uncomfortable just for you, likerising to the occasion and just
doing it. I love it so good.
Real quick, where can everybody find your content, your old bowl
information, all that kind of stuff?
Just so I can put that in the description of this podcast.
Yeah, for sure. Easiest way is Instagram, my

(01:07:33):
personal Instagram, KT Dabrowski, you can find me
there. And then our old bowl athletics.
Instagram is old bowl athletics.On both of those pages you'll
get education stuff, upcoming events that we're doing,
seminars that we're doing right now, we're doing Sprint timber.
So we have some fun content for people who kind of want to
follow along and Sprint with us.So a lot of times we'll do some

(01:07:56):
fun training, things like that, but those are the best places to
find us. That's so much better than
Movember where I have to grow mustache and stuff.
It's just Sprint also. So much better.
So much better. We do that too, to be fair, and
it's hilarious seeing everybody on the team with their
mustaches. But yes, the Sprint temper is a
bit more fun and everybody can participate, so that's nice.

(01:08:18):
Exactly. I love it.
This is amazing. Thank you so much for your time.
I could probably keep talking toyou and asking you questions, so
I'll put everything in description so people can follow
you. And again, just thank you for
coming on and and sharing the time with us.
Yeah, this has been awesome. Thank you.

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