#83 - Mike Stella: Pain isn't the Problem — It’s the Teacher (Movement Underground) - Choose Hard with Cody McBroom

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
In this episode of the Choose Hard podcast, we have the one
and only Mike Stella, who is theowner of Movement Underground.
Movement Underground is a gym inLong Island, New York, but it is
not just your typical gym because Mike is not your typical
coach. He has an insane story backed up
with hours and hours, I mean thousands of hours of developing
mastery in his craft. He has somebody that I truly

(00:22):
trust when it comes to getting out of pain, rehabbing an
individual and getting them to perform at their best possible.
He is actually going to be helping me with some of my
issues and my pain and my dysfunctions and movement
pattern issues that I've accumulated over the years of
training and challenging my bodyin numerous ways because he is
literally the person I trust more than anyone to do this.

(00:43):
He takes a very holistic approach as you were going to
hear in this podcast, because hedoesn't just ask about the root
'cause he didn't ask me, OK, youhave low back issues.
What happened? He asked me what about your
needs? What about your hips?
What about your ankles? What about your shoulders?
What about your stress? How about your sleep?
What's your lifestyle like? And we started going down this
rabbit hole that really opened my eyes to how important all
these other facets of life are in regards to your pain and

(01:06):
specifically getting out of thatpain.
He also makes you feel as thoughpain is not necessarily the
enemy, but rather it is just a signal or a sign of information
that tells you your body is demanding change and it is time
for you to create change. So if you are a movement
specialist, an athletic trainer like Mike.
If you are a gym owner or an entrepreneur in the fitness
space, like Mike, the owner of agym slash rehab, or you are

(01:31):
somebody who is currently in some kind of nagging pain and is
limiting your ability to be optimal and to do the things you
love to do in the gym or activities outside of the gym,
this is going to be a groundbreaking podcast for you.
We breakdown so much valuable information, but also we go
through his story and his own story of pain and his own story
of struggle and choosing hard tobuild his career and become who

(01:52):
he is in the industry today. I really, really enjoyed this
podcast. I know you're going to as well.
And so without any further ado, let's get to this episode with
the one and only. My thanks, Stella.
The greatest things in life all start with a challenge you.
Must accept that everything is hard before it gets easy.
Every every, every, every, everything you want in life

(02:13):
begins with a hard path. Begins with a hard path.
Begins with a hard path. Begins with a hard path.
All right dude, So what? It's been like 2-3 weeks.
Yeah, about 3 weeks now, yeah. So I met you just a few weeks
ago and I have to just share kind of like my first impression
because truthfully, and not to like just kiss your ass too
much, but I haven't met somebodyrandom I've never met before at

(02:36):
an event like that and then instantly hit it off, connected
pretty well and then had him on my podcast within, you know,
literally a few weeks. So obviously I'm a fan and.
I'm honored, my friend, I'm honored.
Well, it was hilarious 'cause I was talking to my wife about the
first night after I got left dinner and I called her and
we're like talking. It's like, who'd you go to
dinner with? And I was like, actually it was
hilarious because I realized I was at a table full of New

(02:59):
Yorkers and they're talking shitand their accents are coming out
a little bit and, and I love it.Like it's, I love it.
It was like he's. Fired.
Were we talking shit? Damn.
Oh man, it just. I mean, it kind of just always
sounds like you're talking shit.Well, New Yorkers are, we are
kind, but we're not nice. Most of the rest of the cult

(03:21):
country is nice, but not kind. And I think we had this
conversation like, we'll kind ofbe brash and tell you exactly
what we're thinking, but is thatnot the kind of thing to do if
you're really thinking about? I mean, you're going to hurt
some people's feelings, but you're also going to be honest.
And I would rather be an honest person that you don't like than
a dishonest person that you do like.
Leila Homosi has this thing about being kind, not nice in

(03:44):
terms of being successful. And I think it's unbelievably
true and helpful. But I grew up, for whatever
reason, because I didn't even goto New York until 2018.
I think me and my wife took a trip there.
Up until then, I'd never been tothe East Coast.
I only listened to New York rap.I always loved gangster movies

(04:06):
about New York mobsters and likeeven American gangster is one of
my favorite movies. Like it was always New York
stuff, always East Coast. I don't know why, but I
instantly did loved everything we were talking about there.
You were with some good people that I trust and like so I knew
you were you were a good companyand honestly, you really, really

(04:26):
know your shit man. I just after talking with you,
it was like, so knowledgeable and experienced as a coach and a
professional, but also very humble.
Like you were constantly learning and constantly
listening and trying to gather information from other people
who are experts in their field. And I could see that.
And I want to say this because Ithink it's important for people
listening. Your, your first impressions
make such a big deal on other people in, in life and with

(04:50):
business and with networking. And when you go to events like
this, whether you're speaking like we were or I mean, you were
actually, you were an attendee who became a speaker by the
second day, which is actually really cool.
All of a sudden I was like, wait, you're speaking out.
This is dope. Like, crushed it.
Crushed it so well as an attendee that Sam brought him on
stage. But there you go, be in the
room. You never know what's going to
happen, man. But like for the people who are

(05:12):
attending events like that, you,you should be connecting, you
should be talking to people, should meeting be meeting
people. If you're a speaker at event,
you should be doing the same thing.
And I took a lot away from the first impression with you
because I could see one. You knew a lot, but also you
were constantly asking questions, constantly trying to
dig into the root cause of problems, and you were
constantly trying to like literally feel.
When I say feel, I mean literally because he's a
practitioner in that that realm.Feel shoulders, traps, rear

(05:35):
delts like on Sam to get him feeling better before he goes
back on stage. And like talking to me about my
low back issues and my knee issues and digging deeper and
like the passion behind that is so genuine and really cool.
And to to kind of finish the genuine side of you off man, I
was really impressed by Juan. You have a bulldog.
So that instantly was like bro. 2 Did we just become best

(05:57):
friends? We.
Did your You can see your emotions and expressions on your
face really easily. And I mean in a good way because
I remember my daughter fell whenI was out there, right?
And I remember saying this and the look on your face was so
sincere and like actually genuinely worried and like
empathetic. It actually like took me a

(06:18):
little bit by surprise. So like, I just met you
yesterday, bro. Like you don't even you know
nothing about me yet, but I don't really care about people.
And so I say all that to say, man, not not to again, kiss your
ass too much, but I was really impressed.
And I think there's not enough people who not to make a good
impression, but just because they are who they are, make a
good impression on the first time meeting people.

(06:39):
And I think that goes so far in business.
And because of all that, I had to have you on the podcast, man.
I'm excited. We're going to actually talk
about your expertise and all that stuff too.
But really happy to have you here, man.
Happy to connect with you in person recently.
And yeah, brother, thank you for.
All dude, I am I am absolutely honored bro.
I can't thank you for that. I, you know, it's always, you

(06:59):
know, you always want to make a good impression, right?
Like you don't always want like just your ambassador out there.
You, it's like, you know, if youfor better or worse in my career
and it's worked out well for me and not well for me to kind of
wear my heart on my sleeve. But it's just kind of like the
more I fought it, the harder time I had and the more I just
was like, you know what, who cares?
Like people are just, some people just aren't going to like

(07:21):
you just cuss. So like, what's, what's the
difference if I'm just authentically who I am?
And like, this is, it's kind of part of my DNA and part of my
story, which I'm sure we're going to, you know, talk about,
which was like the guy who fell through the cracks and had
nobody to really help point me in the right direction.
And that is really the, you know, I guess the the genesis of

(07:41):
the entire story, which is beingthe guy I needed 25 years ago,
you know. It's funny how a lot of and I am
not. I mean ask me stats about sports
and I'd go blank. I don't know a ton, but I feel
like I do know that a lot of great coaches in the sports
world were, and I'm not calling you a shitty athlete, but they

(08:03):
were terrible athletes, you know, or they were athletes that
didn't, maybe weren't genetically gifted, weren't
skilled enough, but they were like yearning to help people
like them. And they became a great coach,
you know, 'cause it was very similar with me.
And I think there's a lot of people who need mentorship and
coaching and got in so bad that when they don't get it and they
figure out their own way, they're like naturally become
the best coach and mentor 'causethey want to provide that for

(08:24):
other people. Truthfully, I think the best
athletes tend to make pretty badcoaches Like and I the way I
frame this for people all the time is just 'cause you could
work a light switch doesn't meanyou know how to wire a house.
It's a, even though they both operate, you know, it's like, or
you could drop a car 300 years ago and we could teach somebody
how to drive that car. It doesn't mean they know how to
build it or how it works, right.So those are just two

(08:46):
compartmentalized bits. And I think, you know, when
you're somebody to your point, you're you're dead on it.
I was a pretty good athlete for my area in high school and
lacrosse was the the flavor for those wondering, and that's kind
of like a really Northeast like Long Island sport.
So, you know, tent the schools tend to look here and recruit
here, but I wasn't necessarily the best skilled player.

(09:07):
I was just one of those like hard nosed, like relentless good
athletes. I could run really well.
So like basically I could play lockdown defense.
I was just like in basketball, just to relate it, I could ride
like a mofo. So I was just AI just created
problems everywhere on the fieldand every now and again I'd let
the hands free and be able to score a goal.
And that's cool too, you know. But then I blew my knee out,

(09:28):
which is ending up how I got into sports medicine and and I
had to try to figure out how to re engineer that that skill that
I had innately that was kind of stripped from me when I blew the
knee out. So and then again, it just
became an obsession of like me trying to figure out my own
issues and like reclaim my body and my identity.
And I didn't know at the time that I was like, really on this

(09:51):
journey of self discovery that Iwould then be able to use and
end up helping other people, which truthfully ended up saving
my life in a, in a way. So it's, it's really complex,
but you're 100% right. I think, you know, the,
sometimes the, the path is laid before you, maybe some
circumstantial, but none of us get to choose the cards, right?
We just get to choose how we play it.
And it's it's worked out for me being a little gritty and and

(10:15):
having that kind of chip on my shoulder.
Yeah, yeah, I can relate to thatman.
I think it's, it's funny, I don't know if I shared this with
you when I was out there, but I had a high school soccer coach
who was once named Pele of America because his name is Tony
Crudo. He was an All Star USA soccer
player. He played on the Sounders back
in the 80s. He was like the guy literally

(10:37):
named Pele in America. You can Google him on his like
first day he told us he's a terrible coach, he said.
Self-awareness. Man, I played, I'm a terrible
coach. The coach got fired for I
believe he was saying inappropriate stuff on the loud
speakers. And so he he was the special Ed
teacher at our high school and he got, he was the replacement.
He just stepped in because I needed somebody.
And he came in and then we foundout who he was and he was like,

(10:59):
I was a great athlete, but I'm not a good coach.
We're like it's going to be a great season.
At least he was honest with you.At least he was honest.
Yeah. So I want to unpack a little bit
of your personal story and then I want to get into some of what
you're an expert in just so people have some context first.
And the first question I have for the personal story is on a
very serious note, what's the obsession with Bigfoot?

(11:20):
That was the first thing you asked me when you found out
where I was from. Is Bigfoot real?
And then I was watching a coupleof your videos and I was, dude,
I was dying. You said, I think it was
something about posture and you were like, posture's kind of
like Bigfoot, but it's, it's a myth.
I'm just joking. Bigfoot's real.
And then you just kept going like it wasn't a joke.
You just kept talking, Oh my. And it's to a client in your

(11:40):
gym. It was cracking.
Right. But I have to ask before we
actually talk about the personalstory.
Well, what's there? Well, Bigfoot is real.
It's got to be real. I don't know.
I mean, I think it's, I think it's, you know, we, we want to
have some surprises left. I think you know what I mean.
I don't know what the obsession is.
I think it's the same obsession that most people have with it.
It's like like, is it possible that this thing is exists out

(12:04):
there and it's just completely disconnected from from the rest
of like the world? Who knows, but I think I like to
think there is. Maybe a little magic?
Magic out there. I've been to the West Coast a
few times. I haven't been to like the the
Sierra Nevadas like up into likeWashington state and Oregon.
I've been like in Northern California a couple years ago, I
went on Mark Bell's show and me and my wife made it out into

(12:25):
like a little trip and kind of did like some hiking up in like
Lake Tahoe area. And like, you know, it's
beautiful country up there, man.The West Coast is gorgeous for
sure. If you get out to Washington,
I'll have to take you some like Bigfoot spots because it's not
let's. Go, let's go.
There's a I'll be that idiot, like yelling into the woods to
see if I can get a sound. Just a bunch of us idiots out
there just yelling at each other.
There's towns where it's just a town full of those idiots.

(12:47):
They. Or, or they're on it man, and
they know something that we don't.
And so that's the cool part, right?
I think I like to just keep people guessing, especially in
those evals like and again, someof that my content is really
just like like fly on the wall clips of me doing my thing.
And you know, I'll throw little quips in there like that to, you
know, bring a little bit of likehumanity into the process.

(13:10):
You know, I think, you know, medical stuff is so sterile and
so procedural now. And like you, you like you go to
any therapist or doctor and you instantly feel like a number,
right? It's like nobody loves like up
got to go to the doctor and sit in the wait for a 1:00
appointment, sit there till 3 until they come see me, you
know, so when I get new people in and they're anxious, you

(13:30):
know, they've got injury issues,they got pain issues, they've
tried a lot of other stuff. It's like sometimes I think
partly it's just kind of bringing back down to earth and
like, hey, we're people buildingthat connection and like, hey,
like, you know, this doesn't have to be such a sterile and
cold experience. It could be something like, like
everybody wants to have that rocky experience, right?

(13:53):
You know, and I try to give every client that like, dude,
you're the fucking underdog, man.
You're going to, you get to comeback from this and like be
better than ever and like be theguy that puts that that in some
people's heads and like genuinely believe it.
And so when I throw stuff like Bigfoot in there, it's like you
got to start believing in the stuff that's not possible
because if you don't, then like life's just fucking

(14:14):
disappointing then, you know what I mean?
But like, why do we watch sports, man?
We're watching for that magical moment where the where the
impossible becomes real and we get to watch that.
That's why sports are romantic. That's why it's a multi billion
dollar, trillion dollar industrynow, because there's something
romantic and and exciting and that draws your that draws us
in. We want to watch the story,

(14:35):
right. So I think the Bigfoot thing,
it's just it's part of a story that kind of weaves in a little
bit of the magic, I think. I love that dude.
I think it's just, you know, if nothing else, lightning up the
coaching experience. 100. Percent a man it's I think it's
such an underrated. Get somebody to smile, man.
You get somebody to smile in a, in a, in a situation where
they're uncomfortable. It's like you instantly and like

(14:58):
to your point about first impressions, right?
And like really being able to inshort periods of time, build
trust and build, you know, something that's like, Oh yeah,
like Mike's just like me. It's like, well, if I don't show
you who I am, how do you ever get to feel that?
And there's, there's something very human about that and
something that's very difficult to put your finger on about
that. It's a feeling.

(15:19):
It's not like, you know, and again, we go to like masterminds
and seminars and like when you're a coach and you're really
passionate about coaching, thereis an art to coaching.
There is an art and a science todoing that.
But the ability to have that feel completely free and
authentic and not staged as I, Ithink that's part of the the
magic piece there. It really is.

(15:40):
That's what I mean. That's what makes each
individual coach unique and authentic.
And we all have very similar knowledge and information we can
pull from how we really apply. That is the key.
But in that application process,we're really big on this on the
nutrition coaching side, How do we get somebody to actually do
it? It's like coaching information
all the time. But if I don't coach it

(16:00):
properly, not just from like a skill perspective, but a a human
perspective, man, they're gonna have trouble.
So. Listen man, people.
People aren't in pain and peoplearen't in shape, not because
they don't know what to do, it'sjust they just don't do it
right. So like it's, you know, like
more really good rehab is less about like the techniques and
the things that you do to peopleand more about getting people to
believe and buy into that process that they can do it.

(16:23):
And that's the part they have tobecome or at least shift into a
mindset where they can actually be the hero of that story.
You know, so for me, for many years of my own story, I wasn't
the hero. I was the, you know, not the
victim, but like in this place of like purgatory where there's
just no progress and I was struggling.
And it's like, it's really hard to be there for a long time.
And I think partly that gives methe empathy or really the

(16:45):
sympathy to to kind of put myself back in that in that
mode. It's really tough, like
sometimes people, you know, to get out of pain.
It's like you're trying to sail a ship with the dragon, the
anchor, you're dragging the anchor behind you.
It's all this strain and all your everything in your body is
telling you to stop that this isbad and to reframe that and get
people to not only believe that it's good and actually willingly

(17:08):
do the hard thing and choose it because they, and again, that's
always shifting them to that outcome.
Like, hey, why and figuring out why are they doing this?
What's what is the underlying motivation?
Because when people come see me,it's not because their back
hurts. It's because that back pain or
that problem has robbed something from them.
It's taken something away that they want back.

(17:29):
Otherwise they wouldn't come in,right?
So I think part of it is on the pain side.
The pain is like understanding that pain is obviously a highly
motivating factor for some people, but that's exactly its
utility for humans. It's making you change your
behaviors in your decision making, right?
Forcing you to do that. So I just try to educate people
enough so that they can not fearit.

(17:51):
AB that they start to see the process before them and then
connect the process to the outcome that they want.
And again, there I think there'sscience to that, but your
ability to bend that to the person is kind of is the art is
the art of of healthcare to workcoaching, art of coaching.
And what, this is one of the reasons why I think I love your
content and what you say in it so much because I, I, you don't

(18:13):
know a bunch about this, but we do we talk about the same thing
with nutrition. It, it like literally it's all
behavior, it's all connected, it's all stress, it's all
lifestyle. Like we, we have to connect all
these dots and that's the only way we get people to create
change long term and give somebody macros and they're
gonna get shredded in, you know,8 weeks easy, but they're gonna
gain it back and we've seen it. And so like getting people to

(18:35):
create change long term is so much more than just macros.
And for your case, it's so much more than just corrective
exercises, you know, so, but yousaid a couple things that I
literally have written down of like quotes of yours and stuff.
So I'm going to dig into some ofthat man.
I want to ask first your story so people have context.
One like explain who you are, It's worth 20 minutes and who
are you? What your business is your your

(18:57):
gym? Like tell them about your
company, everything, what you guys do.
And also like how you went from,you know, kind of in a nutshell,
the journey from athlete to coach, slash therapist or coach,
then therapist, however that went like how and also why, why
that evolution? Like how did that come about?
Yeah, man. So like I said, you know, in my
high school years, I was a highly recruited lacrosse
player, you know, and, and that was my ticket out.

(19:19):
You know, I grew up in the kind of a single parent households,
you know, I had those stepdad situations.
So like home. I was always really independent
kind of as a youngster. I lost my dad passed away when
we were very young. So it was always kind of like
this thing where people felt badfor us.
And I don't know, for me, that was always, I didn't like that.
I didn't, I didn't want to be a victim.
I don't want people feel bad forme.

(19:40):
I was like, I'm good. Like I, we had a great
childhood. My mom was amazing.
And, you know, lacrosse was my way out.
My lacrosse was my way to pay for school and not end up
working in construction or sanitation or, you know, taking
that same path that a lot of themen in my family did at the
time. So, you know, my senior year, I
hadn't chosen a school yet. I was still kind of figuring out

(20:00):
what I wanted to do. And and I tore my ACLPCLMCL
meniscus tibial plateau fracture.
Chondral lesions on both the femur and the tibia.
So like the official, yeah, it was 11 collision injury, you
know, and bang, you know, dreamsgone, right?
So the official diagnosis was fucked and you know, I had a

(20:23):
really hard time with that. You know, I had it wasn't just
the the injury in the rehab in the surgery, it was all the
coaches that were offering me money disappeared, right.
So all of a sudden I went from this high value person with a
future to what am I going to do next?
How am I going to pay for school?
Right? So Maris college is like a small
mid major D1 last D1 to offer meeven any money in a spot happen

(20:46):
to have an athletic training program.
And for those that don't know, athletic trainers are kind of
like a cross between physical therapy and like emergency
medicine. So when you, you know, watch the
giants play the Eagles and poor camp scataboo, you know,
fracture dislocates his ankle. Athletic trainers are the people
who are responding to that injury.
And so I kind of was like, as I'm going through this rehab
process, I was working with my school athletic trainer who also

(21:08):
was working at the PT clinic locally and they were kind of do
my rehab. And I'm at that time I was
thinking maybe I'll get into construction management or
architecture engineering, something like that.
And then all of a sudden the sports medicine thing was like
in my face as an 18 year old and, and something that I really
needed to learn and do in order to have any shot at the future,
you know? So I was like, OK, I think maybe

(21:29):
I'll do this because I'm this iskind of cool.
And I've just been doing it eversince.
That was in 2004. So, you know, in the years past,
you know, so then I'm in Graduate School and studying
athletic training, sports medicine.
I get a job for the Florida Gators.
So I was part of that staff. That was on 2008 national
championship. Tim Tebow, Ron, I was working

(21:50):
for one of the top NCAA universities in their sports
medicine department. It was just an incredible
experience, man. It's like, you know, people
think like elite rehab. It's like imagine a rehab
training nutrition scenario where you didn't worry about
money, you didn't worry about insurance.
It was just you have the the most elite facilities, the best
resources and there is 0 like cost is not a factor.

(22:15):
Like the mindset in that world is results by any means
necessary. Now that is a very stark
contrast to what you know when people get sports rehab now at
like a private PT. That's not what's happening in
like elite athletics. It's just not even though they
call it that, right? So that was kind of my frame of
reference for like what sports medicine should be.

(22:37):
And, you know, this integrated process of multidisciplinary
teams, right? We had physicians and Kairos and
PTS and athletic trainers and strength and conditioning
coaches and massage therapy and nutritionists and we're all
working together in order. And the end goal is the best
result for the athlete, right? So can.
I Yeah, real quick, man, sure. I think this is a good context

(22:58):
for young. There's a lot of young trainers
and entrepreneurs and stuff. One could look at your
situation, my situation. I the dude that ran the college
program, Tim Vegan. He's like a silent legend.
I mean, I've watched he's not even APT and I watched him help
people in his because I would intern at his hospital gym.
He was a trainer that they let have a gym at the hospital and

(23:19):
he would rehab people from a wheelchair to be walking in.
Like phenomenal. Do it talks about a lot of the
same stuff that you talked aboutactually with a lot of the
neural connections and such. And he's the reason I met Luca.
And so like somebody could look at that and be like, oh, well,
if I had those two people in my life, that would be great, you
know, but I just hear you say this.
I'm like, man, if I had that program, that'd be great too.
And I think a lot of people who make it in this industry and are

(23:39):
pushing and are growing, they dohave somebody that they end up
running into. The reality is, is all over the
country, there are these amazinghumans that you can run into
100%. So I want to ask you, you know,
you get injured, people are taking away these scholarships.
That is a, a, a place that I, I would find myself semi depressed
and at that stage as an athlete and trying so hard not to just

(24:01):
quit, but to just keep. I, I would imagine you had to
keep applying and keep pushing and keep talking to people.
And there's no way to get where you got without this relentless
part of like just knocking on the door until somebody finally
fucking opens it. And I want to highlight that
because I know it's got to be true and people need to hear
that too, because it's not just like, oh, here's a perfect
situation, Mike, go for it, you know?
Yeah, no, it wasn't that. It was, you know, in the years

(24:22):
after the knee, I was just neverthe same guy.
And and that from like, obviously from like a personal,
you know, mental health standpoint was really tough.
But like, physically I was just a shell of who I was, you know,
and, and it wasn't that people didn't try to help me.
I was doing everything they toldme to do, like to the 10th
degree, like they were like, wake up, we're going to do quad
sets. I'm like in the recovery room
trying to squeeze my quad with afucking nerve block in, which is

(24:44):
like not going to happen, right?But you know, like, I just was
so like, I'm going to do this right.
I'm going to come back and I'm, I'm going to be the guy I was.
And it just never, it didn't work out for me in that way
because I just had so much pain,dude.
My knee was just a mess. And then I, I started
compensating, you know, like I, I would play the game
differently because I just didn't have that explosiveness

(25:05):
of that reactivity. I played with a little bit more
like trying not to get hurt or trying not to get beat.
And then I ended up having more injuries like tearing up my hip
labrum and my ankles and I herniated a disc in my back and
weight lifting and it was just like after the knee.
It was like a steamroll like that of just one thing after
another in terms of like I was always the guy that was hurt and

(25:26):
that bothered me because like dudes big up still was just hurt
again, you know, can't contribute to practice because
he's always a game day guy only.And it's like I was just doing
everything I could do to be in aposition that I could contribute
and some meaningful way in college.
I really just faced off, like I was kind of relegated to facing
off because that was the last thing I could really do because
getting up and down the field just wasn't really a thing for

(25:47):
me anymore. And so in the years as a
professional, like turning into an athletic trainer and working
with athletes through injury. And then like, again, that's
part of like the industry, right, where it's, you know, in,
in a college sports setting, it's so different to healthcare.
Then then again, the private side, because like I'm with
those athletes every day, like I'm with my patients every

(26:08):
single day. You get to know them on a deeply
personal level, you know, what'sgoing on in their life.
So again, even just your frame of reference for how you deliver
that care is altered because of the relationship that you have,
for better or worse. It's, you know, it's just
different, right? It's not this like we wait till
you get hurt and then you come in for treatment after for
rehab. It's kind of this ongoing
process that is more, you know, proactive, right?

(26:31):
So like, that was what attractedme to because I felt like that's
what I was missing in my own recovery.
So I'm like, OK, if if at least my athletic career isn't
reclaimable, at least I could bethe guy that helps other
athletes not fall through the crack, that not slip through the
system and not get the care thatthey need.
And for me, like while I was in undergrad and I'm learning like

(26:51):
sports medicine and rehab and what am I being taught?
Like the very classic low level exercise.
But here I am like having a little bit of experience as an
athlete with strength and conditioning and sports
performance training. I'm like, how is clamshells and
straight leg raises getting me ready to play Division One
lacrosse? Like I was running a four 640
like how how is this getting me to there?

(27:12):
I just didn't see it and it didn't make sense to me.
And you know, personally, I was always that kid who like took
apart his toys, like I always had to know how shit worked.
So when I would like sit in class and like raise my hand
like this doesn't make sense to me.
Can you please explain it? They'd be like, why you why you
always got to be combative or like, you know, say that we're
wrong. I'm like, no, I'm just asking.
I want to genuinely know, like the real reason, not just all

(27:33):
because I said so. Like that's not good enough for
me, especially as somebody that goes through it, right?
Somebody who's going through it and really struggling with it.
In that time, I was wanting the knowledge.
Selfishly for me, I wanted to understand why my body didn't
get back to where it should havebeen.
So it became this obsession thatwas personal.
And then, you know, I just always really enjoy just being

(27:56):
in the trenches of the athletes.So like, you know, Graduate
School and even after grad school, I worked as a collegiate
athletic trainer, which is generally speaking, 80 to 100
hours a week in the trenches with your athletes, working with
physicians and therapists and Kairos and strength coaches and
all that stuff. And, and what I loved about it
was I got to have my hand in theentire process, which is very

(28:17):
atypical for a healthcare provider, right?
So I would go from injury on thefield immediate, I'd be the
person to assess it, immediate treatment, maybe refer if they
need surgery or some advanced procedures, immediate rehab,
back to strength and conditioning, back to return to
competition. So for me, it was always part of
like, I just love doing all of that.
I don't want to miss anything inthis process.

(28:40):
So now athletic training is a really cool job.
And because it's a cool job, it also pays really poorly,
typically speaking. So like for example, I was
working at a Division One university working 80 hours a
week and I was making like 29 grand a year.
So like for me, after taxes, I was like making like 1400 bucks
a month and my rent was like 1000, you know, So I was like,

(29:01):
that's and then so like the entrepreneurship side really
started to develop out of like this.
Really now I'm in chronic pain or like dealing with that and
you know, but now I'm really depressed, right?
Because I'm struggling financially.
Makes it really hard to date. You know, my mom was sick,
right? So I lost my dad when I was
young. And then in college, my mom was

(29:22):
diagnosed with breast cancer andended up having a relapse where
it spread, you know, and she eventually succumbed in 2015.
So, you know, I was taking care of her.
I'm trying to build my business.I'm seeing clients on the side.
I'm working for APT Clinic, you know, so a lot of experience, a
lot of hours in the trenches andjust kind of grinding through it
and, and just trying to find my way and reconcile the money part

(29:46):
with the passion part. Because like the thing that drew
me to this profession was never like to make $1,000,000 or own a
facility like I do now. It was, I just wanted to do the
work. I wanted to help people, I
wanted to see in them the, that it is possible, right?
For my own sake. And then, you know, and 10 years
later, I'm an overnight success and we own the movement

(30:08):
underground. I own the movement underground,
which is my vision for healthcare for the future.
It's, it's, and I talked to Seanabout this and this is a
conversation him and I had, you know, a while back, which is
fitness as healthcare. It's like, I think partly, you
know, we, we, we see all these chronic metabolic diseases,
these chronic illnesses and you know, for better or worse,

(30:30):
there's government agencies and bodies trying to deal with that.
But it's like when you really get granular and kind of look at
this problem, you got people whoare in pain, you got people who
can't do the basics right because maybe they don't know or
like we talked about, like they genuinely don't have somebody
like rooting for them to guide them through that.
So I wanted to build a real place to do this work.

(30:52):
Like, you know, I could have maybe gone online and done that
and not, there's nothing wrong with that.
I think it's great. But for me it was I need, I need
the the full experience. I need the the touch, the smell,
the feel, the sounds, the sightsand like having that has been a
real source of calm and peace for me in my life, even though

(31:14):
it's stressful. I mean, you got to be kind of
crazy, like somewhat psychopathic to be an
entrepreneur at a certain level.There's actually.
And own a facility. Yeah, for sure.
There's a there's a book called Hypomania or Hippomania or
something like that. It's it's actually really good,
but it talks about historical entrepreneurs that are basically
somewhat that shit crazy. And that's what makes us who we

(31:34):
are. But you know, I think a lot of
people listening should hear this too.
And so I always say if we can think on the realize on the
front end that eventually we'll say I wouldn't change it for the
world, it can help us so much because you're grinding, you're
making nothing, and you're doingthis work as a athletic trainer.
I would assume now you're like, that experience helped me so

(31:56):
much. And I wouldn't change for the
world. But in the moment, it's a grind.
It's hard, but there's only certain people who really stick
it out because they're willing to do that grind for whatever is
going to come later on. Would you agree?
Absolutely. First of all, yeah.
And it's just funny too now because like, you know, I'll get
DMS like every day where it's like, oh, what courses should I

(32:19):
take to learn what you owe? And And I wish I could give them
an answer because I also was obsessed with this stuff.
Like I took every freaking course under the sun.
Like any extra money I made bartending or doing these odd
jobs, I would put it into continuing education.
Like I was always the guy in theseminar room, like watching the
Luca host of ours going, man, this is like I I want to be able

(32:39):
to contribute to the industry inthat way someday, right?
That was kind of deeply motivating for me.
And I guess maybe I wanted my work to matter on some level.
And even though I knew it did, but for me, it was the the
intrinsic value, like the I could deal with not making the
money because of the feeling that I'd get from somebody

(33:01):
saying, Mike, you changed my life.
And I'm like, no, you did, I just got to show you some stuff.
And you know, I love this stuff.And, and I'm one of those
fortunate people who just like fucking loves this stuff.
And, and again, it's in, in those deep depressed years after
I lost my mom, I lost, you know,my, my ex at my fiance at the
time, you know, we broke off a wedding.

(33:22):
Like I was just a really, I had a former business partner who
stole a ton of money for me and like freaking effed me over,
right? So I have all of those classic
story arcs that a lot of entrepreneurs do in my own
little way. But like, the biggest message I
give a lot of people is just keep going, man.
Staying power in this field I think is probably one of the
best indicators for success is just sticking with it and being

(33:44):
in the room long enough. To your point, being in the room
and then getting a chance to be brought up and share.
And it's really, really cool. And I'm just very grateful that
I get to be in that position now.
It's so huge bro. I think endurance is just such a
such a powerful. Underrated skill, man.
It's an underrated entrepreneurship skill that I
think some people haven't, some people don't.
And I think if you got to figureout what that carrot is, what's

(34:07):
the thing that's keeping you in it, you know?
And luckily for me, it was that feeling with my clients just
kind of gave me like that junky vibe of like kept me coming back
even though I was struggling andI could have gone and got a
cubicle job somewhere. But just even the thought of
that was like, fuck, I don't want to do that.
And it's you, whether you, it was subconscious maybe, but and
a lot of people, this is you identified what made enduring

(34:31):
through whatever was to come worth it, right?
And so a lot of people, they don't do that.
They don't sit there and go, OK,I have to do the work.
This sucks. I got to choose hard.
But it's because of this, I'm identifying that this outcome is
worth this grind. However long this kind of takes,
I'm willing to do it. And on the flip side, people
forget to do that with the bad too.
I'm going to eat this shit. I'm going to drink however much

(34:53):
I'm gonna drink too often I'm gonna have this bad habit,
whatever the thing may be, they forget to associate that with
the outcome that they're gonna see.
It's temporarily feels good, butwhat's the outcome?
And if you can think about the outcome and realize that it's
not worth that, it's easier to pull back from it, you know, so
I think it is it is a skill. It takes practice.
And I love dude, I love the, that's, that's how we look at

(35:15):
body composition because, you know, not Speaking of injuries,
but body fat and obesity is the number one predictor of all
'cause mortality and any diseaseor issue being way worse.
So if you lose weight, and I'm not saying bodybuilder shredded,
that's fun, I guess too. But if you just get in great
shape, you build muscle, you lose fat, you are going to

(35:37):
prevent so much illness, issues,disease.
And so we're on that side too. We're like, dude, this is just,
and I think it stems from, I'd actually be interested in your
take on this. I don't know if you've ever
thought about it this way, but Ihad a mentor a while back say,
like when I was trying to reallyfigure out, you know, we're
scaling the company And I'm like, OK, I got to really think
about our mission, What's our purpose?
And you know, he's like, all right, well, what really pisses

(35:58):
you off in today's world, 'causethat's the easiest way to figure
out what your, your purpose, your mission is.
And it was so funny 'cause it's like, I hate that average is
like really pathetic. Average today is like weak and
fat and like reading books is like weird people don't do that
normally. Like I talk to people like you
and we all read books, but then you talk to a neighbor that's
just a normal guy and you're like, you don't read.
When's the last time you wrote abook years ago?

(36:19):
What the hell? Like that's crazy.
So it's like, that's what pissesme off, you know, And I think at
some point you probably, you know, again, some of us, it's a
subconscious at times too. You don't realize it, but it
triggers you that like Healthcare is so bad or physical
therapy is so bad on the average, you know, not everybody
in physical therapy, but many ofthem are.
People are being treated wrong in healthcare and not getting to

(36:40):
the root cause of injuries. And it subconsciously pisses you
off enough to where you have to create change. 100 percent,
100%. It was always kind of like going
against the grain because AI wanted to know why, but I was
also willing to do the work to figure it out myself if somebody
else was to help me get there, you know, so, and that alone was

(37:00):
like super invaluable, but it also like I had to kind of stick
to my convictions when I believed in.
And you're 100% right, it did piss me off to be at Florida and
see the care that we were delivering these athletes and a
being paid dog shit for it. And why?
Because if I say no to that, youknow, I worked for the Florida
Gators for $6.50 an hour. Like, you know what I mean, as

(37:22):
somebody with a degree and a credential and all that stuff,
you know, I had, I was working at Liu with a master's degree.
They're 29 grand a year, you know, so because it's a race to
the bottom, a lot of people willdo that job for less because
it's a cool job. It's like doing that with the
athletes every day, being behindthe scenes and getting to see
what really goes on. It's it's super, super cool.

(37:43):
But you know, again, I think youlike, you nailed it.
You got to have that the deeper like what we're trying to do
with our clients, right? Like really help them articulate
and define what that thing is. What that why is a lot of people
don't even realize what it is until you really start asking
them the questions and making them critically think about it.
But you know, again, and even when I'm telling people about

(38:05):
range of motion, it's like, and we look at research studies and
look to your point about normal,it's it's like a lot of research
is showing us normal, but why are we shooting for normal?
Like for most people, normals living paycheck to paycheck, you
wouldn't recommend that to somebody just because it's
normal? It's like, I'm looking for
optimal, right? And this is kind of where like I
know you had Grant on recently and and I think Grant's great

(38:27):
and he's built a tremendous business and he's helped a lot
of people, but he's very hard onlike, oh, you don't need to
touch people. You don't need to be hands on.
You don't have to be in person to do that.
I beg to differ. I beg to differ because I bet if
I had to bet my arc of like how percentage wise people who get
there because of that part, because of the relationship,

(38:47):
because we can build that connection really quickly and
get them wins in the process. Maybe we have a better chance of
that positive long term outcome and behavior change and
lifestyle amount and change and all those things to make them
stick. But a lot of people, they start
doing these things, they start doing the right thing, but
because they don't get the instant gratification of the
instant reward, they start their, their motivation begins

(39:09):
to wane like, oh God, am I really going to keep eating this
chicken and rice? And am I really going to keep
doing these isometrics like in again, because the stuff that
works isn't cool, it's not sexy.It's it's basic, boring,
repeated tedious. And so to get people wins early
is huge, man, to show them a light at the end of the tunnel,

(39:31):
something worth keep continuing to go for.
So, you know, again, but there'sthe truth is there's no right or
wrong way to do any of this stuff.
It really just depends on the person in front of you.
And and like, to your point, I was willing to get hands on to
get that extra outcome. Maybe it isn't necessary, but it
could be optimal, right? So like, if I'm, if my real goal

(39:52):
is to get the best outcomes possible, I was the guy willing
to put the gloves on and roll upthe sleeves and do that work.
And a lot of therapists aren't anymore because.
We can say, oh, evidence, I can just educate you on pain and and
that's good. It's like, OK, yeah, maybe for
you, not for me. Yeah, well, and I think that's,
you know, in the world my company lives in, it's funny

(40:13):
too, because we we hammer on thequick wins initially as well,
because you have to to get them to buy into the long term.
They got to see that at the initial start point.
But we we do training and nutrition, but our main thing is
nutrition. Like that's because we do fat
loss, right? And you, you can do that in
person if you're a personal chef, I guess, and it's a

(40:33):
millionaire, but we can't. And so I am of the opinion, I
agree with you. I think that there's, there's
obviously people we work with that do training.
They do amazing because they don't need that hands on.
But I think when it comes to, I mean, I'm for example, dude, I'm
all banged up and it is, it's different.
I've tried multiple things. I've also, I've seen people
online, I've also seen unfortunately, people in person

(40:55):
that are the generic physical therapist and I don't go back
because I felt like I told them what I want them to do.
Like I'm literally like, Hey, I need some dry needling here.
And then when they start saying,well, we're going to go through
some of these movements, I'm like, it's not going to work
because I've ever done that on my own in my gym because I know
to do that. And that's not the thing.
Like I really need help discovering this issue.

(41:15):
And then you and I take a walk down the block and you're
blowing my mind and I'm like thinking about all this other
stuff going on. But that's where you can sit
there and look at me and poke and, and, and prod and ask these
questions and, and feel. I think that makes a massive
difference. And, and it's actually cool
because something you said segues into something I really
wanted to touch on, which is kind of this holistic approach
you have, man. It's like, I think extremely

(41:37):
beneficial for people listening to hear this, especially if
they're whether it's a trainer, a coach, or, or it's somebody
who is going through pain or they're a lifter with all kinds
of aches and pains like me just from years.
But you look at everything. It's like I told you, hey, my,
my back. And then you start asking me
about my ankles and my knees andmy shoulders and my thoracic
spine. And then you're asking me about

(41:57):
my sleep. And then, hey, how's your
stress? I know you're an entrepreneur
and a dad. Like you start going down these
rat holes. And my first thought and most
people is I'm like, no, no, no, no.
It's my back. My low back hurts.
Like tell me what to do here. Yeah, but I need to keep peeling
this onion, man. So explain why this is so
important, even though somebody might be experiencing direct
pain in one area. Why do you do this?
Why do you keep picking apart and trying to figure out the

(42:19):
whole story and and like, connect all these dots?
So such a, it's such a good question, man, this, this, and
this is the crux to, you know, Iwould say most therapy is like,
what, what's your process, right?
What's your process for gathering this information to
determine what information is relevant to the case and what
information isn't? You know what I mean?

(42:40):
So the so the way that I frame this for people, and this is
exactly how I do it, You know, when I sit down with somebody in
person is it's like every personhas this equation, right?
Let's just say for in your case,right, you get that low back SI
joint thing, some sciatica intermittently, right?
That's your equal sign right now.
That's part of your output or your outcome that you're
getting. Now there's all of these

(43:00):
variables in your equation, right?
Your lifestyle, your sleep, yourstress management, your
nutrition, your training history, like the sports that
you played when you were younger, like this life in your
body is your cumulative exam. It ain't what you did.
Recent people like, Oh my God, my back hurts.
I must have slept funny. I was like, would you sleep on a
bed of nails like you slept on amemory foam air cooled, pressure

(43:20):
controlled mattress, man? Like it wasn't your mattress and
it wasn't last night. It was all of these things
compiling over time and, and in people's injury history is a
story. It's a story of how their body
is managed stress either well ornot well, right.
And so, and I think partly wherea lot of people get this twisted

(43:41):
in in the rehab space is, you know, there's lots of different
systems by which we could potentially like evaluate
somebody, right? And a lot of those are heavily
biomechanical and movement base,which I love because I think in
your case, a young, healthy, fitindividual who does all of the
basic stuff very well, most of the time you're dealing with a

(44:03):
movement based problem. Now, if I were to be looking at
somebody with, and I'm saying that as my opinion, I'm not
saying that's a fact. I'm saying my opinion is that
you have movement based linchpins that cause you to over
leverage certain joints and areas.
That's driven through partly your biology and your anatomy,
what you've been born with and set up with and your genetics
and, and how you've used your body as a tool, right, over the

(44:26):
course of your lifetime and the adaptations and compensations
that it has based on what you'retrying to do, right?
But if I have somebody who's 400lbs and they have metabolic
dysfunction and they have other comorbidities or like obesity or
cardiovascular issues or blood lipid issues and sleep
dysregulation and depression andanxiety, they're being medicated
with SSRI's. Like there's so many more

(44:48):
variables in that pain equation now.
Now that equation gets a lot more complex and it's a lot
harder to isolate variables, right?
But what I'm trying to do is figure out which variables in
your equation are worth changing.
Now, what gives us the largest effect size on your short term
prognosis? So I can show you those winds so
that you can feel in your body in real time the change that can

(45:12):
happen when you give the system what it wants, what it's looking
for, right. So I, I tell every single one of
my clients, pain is a request for change.
That's what it is. It's your it's your nervous
system in your brain and the sumof all the available perceptual
evidence saying we need you to change something.
So that equation metaphor is just what to change.
Now most P TS like we're just going to get stronger in this

(45:35):
local tissue. Great, awesome.
There's nothing wrong with that.And if we're talking about
normal people, distribution of probability and you have
somebody who's deconditioned andsedentary and generally doesn't
exercise, a little bit of non specific exercise is going to go
a long way for that person. That's going to be a little bit
of that like general physical preparedness.

(45:56):
But I work with athletes, athletes who have performance
goals, not just like, can I takethe garbage out or can I, you
know, and again, not to downplaythose goals, they're important,
right? But I just think when we start
talking about this from like a sports performance perspective,
it's like the athlete, their goals and wants aren't the

(46:18):
things I'm doing in rehab or in the weight room for training.
It's the sport that's the outcome measure that they're
looking at. So and I think this works plays
well for general population people because like, how do we
fit a training mindset into life, sport of life, like all
the other responsibilities and things that you have to do.
But again, I think this is kind of what we were talking about in

(46:40):
Raleigh, which is like getting people to connect that why why
you're doing it. A lot of people just don't have
a reason to do it, a good enoughreason that they've connected to
that's like, OK, this is worth it.
This struggle of leaning into this is worth it.
I'm fortunate, I guess, in a, you know, roundabout way because
people come to me in pain. So they're already motivated to
change. Now I get to be the person that

(47:02):
reveals to them the opportunities in their equation
and say, here's my vision for you.
This is what I want to attack over the next three months.
And this is exactly how we're going to do it.
How does that sound? And I'm probably the first
person on that, on the other side of that clipboard to
actually give a shit enough to say, here's my vision for you.

(47:25):
And from a patient's perspective, they're like,
finally, finally somebody who's actually going to show me what
exactly what I need to do and teach me.
And that's what we do. And then by the end of that
three months, now it's not just a client.
This is a friend, a person in our community that values us and
we value them. And that's how we've made this
thing not a transactional business, but what I say is a

(47:47):
transformative business transformation because it's
changing not only us as a staff,it's changing them deeply
because it's because we can get them to stick with it long
enough. Yeah.
So let me ask you this. If you know somebody sedentary,
not an athlete, they go and theydo this localized stuff and and
it helps. My question would be this.

(48:08):
Number one, if they do that, andmost likely regardless of who
the physical therapist they're going to be like, you should
probably start working out and building overall strength.
You know, go to the gym, do something.
You hope so. You hope so.
Right. And so now it doesn't fully
translate to that training because they weren't training or
they weren't preparing for that in the physical therapy.
But then also if they bent over and grabbed a case of water

(48:30):
bottles and that's to hurt theirback and they go to physical
therapy next time, it's rotatingto do something else and they
hurt something else. And this is where I'm like,
yeah, but if we just do that onething and the person doesn't get
better as a whole, at least a little bit, does not end up
sending them right back to PT eventually.
I mean, again, that's kind of the crux of, you know, I, I

(48:51):
think for most, and again, this is a generalization and I don't
want to make this an attack on physical therapy as a profession
by any means. Athletic training has its own
bag of issues as a profession, but you know, by and large, you
know, in physical therapy school, and I know this is my
wife's a physical therapist, butalso I've trained and taught
hundreds if not thousands of PTS.

(49:12):
I've taught at PT schools. So I've worked with PT those
programs and yes, they learn exercise, but they don't learn
like advanced progressions, periodization models, you know,
way. So it does run out of some
runway, right. And I guess an athletic trainer

(49:32):
like our role is like it's, we're pretty versatile in the
sense that we can kind of work in both of those spheres.
So it's, and me, I was a personal trainer before I was
licensed as an athletic trainer.I was already volunteer, you
know, doing some private training as a student because it
was something I could do to makesome money because I was an
athlete and I knew how to lift weights a little bit.

(49:53):
So at the PT clinic, I was rehabbing out there like, Hey,
do you want to train some of these older folks?
Like they just need help with the basics.
I'm like, sure, I'll fucking do that.
That's awesome, You know, So again, I, I think it's what kind
of experience do you want from arehab perspective?
Like I'm not set up for everybody.
Like recently we had, you know, this wonderful woman come in

(50:14):
middle-aged, mid to late 40s, had a massive stroke, owns a
owns a local yoga studio, you know, so this was somebody was
pretty physically active, has a massive stroke, loses really
pretty much half the function ofher body.
And you know, one of her massagetherapist is a client of mine
and she's like Mike, I just would really love for you to
meet her. And she's just looking for

(50:34):
anything to help her move forward.
And the, the kind thing to do was not take her on because I
just don't have the adaptive stuff that would give her the
most good that would help her with the variable in her
equation that is the largest deficit for her.
I don't have the the facility ofthe this stuff for that.
So I referred her out to a specialized clinic, right?

(50:55):
So again, it's just one of thosethings where there's a time and
a place for everything. There's many ways to do this.
My approach has always been to identify the deficit and let's
help fill in that deficit. But in doing so and evaluating
the movement like we did with you, it's like, I also have a
pretty good idea of what you cando well now, meaning what can I
train you in safely and load youto create some of those general

(51:18):
physiological adaptations while we work on maybe this one joint
that doesn't move particularly well or has some tissue glide
issues or has some pain problem that makes it hard for you to
like connect, you know, to that part of your body.
So again, it's, it's, it's just a matter of like finding the
entry point for a lot of these people.
And the cool part for us, you know, as like this hybrid model

(51:41):
of like rehab and fitness is we're now able to seamlessly
move them into a purely trainingmodel once we've resolved that
pain issue. And that's where the
sustainability comes in. And for the client, they get to
work with the same guys and the same staff that helped them get
this, you know, and it's so coolbecause we opened the big
facility, which is only two years ago.

(52:01):
We went from zero members to 120members in one year with 0
marketing spend. Because all of those people came
in on for the pain problem, for the reputation that we built for
the rehab side and we and we kept them yeah, you know, we
kept them here on a, on a sustainable semi private model
that they get coaching, they getguidance and they get that like

(52:22):
everybody knows who they are community feeling as well.
Yeah, I love that dude. I know we're we're getting close
on time. Do you have?
I got time. I got time man.
I got a couple more questions, man.
Sure. You kind of alluded to this and
I wrote this down. It's, you've said it in a couple
different ways. I wrote down a quote that I
pulled from something you were saying on Instagram.
It's pain isn't the enemy, It's information.

(52:43):
And I think that's really good and I think it's a good insight.
However, I am curious of how people can identify maybe a
range of tolerable or acceptablepain.
I guess what I'm saying is how for the hard headed people like
me that are like, no, this is just information I need to, you
know, and then I just keep goingand going and going and then all

(53:03):
of a sudden it's like too much. How do we know the difference
between pain that is saying hey,stop, rest and pain that is
saying, Hey, there's a dysfunction.
Let's work around it or through it or, or just, I guess the even
the best way to, to explain thisto the average person listening
to average trainer, even that like, you know, if we're
training somebody and we don't do the rehab, at what point do

(53:23):
we refer out to people like you?You know, knowing that pain is
information doesn't mean they need to go see a specialist
right away, but sometimes that'sexactly what it means.
Dude, that is the question, man.That is the question and and the
truth, the real truth isn't you.There is no way to know.
And because it's such a subjective and individual thing
for everybody. Now, if I were to take somebody,

(53:45):
and again, this is where like wecould go down the rabbit hole on
the pain conversation. I know you've had this
conversation with a couple of the really great providers,
right? I do say pain is information for
the purpose and context of I don't want people to fear it.
I don't want them to be scared of it or something where it's
like all this is damaging to me.Now, with that being said, every

(54:07):
human's perception and experience with that is so
unique and individualized, right?
So the way I frame this, here's another reframe that I try to
give to people. It's like if you're standing on
train tracks and there's a freight train coming and that
train is out in the distance, but you could kind of hear it
and you can see the headlight out in the distance.

(54:27):
But what happens to the sound ofthat horn as it gets closer?
It gets louder and louder and louder and louder and louder.
At what point do you as an individual say get the fuck out
of the track and jump off is again, I'm the guy who's like
running across the street when Ihave the freaking light, the
green light, you know what I mean?
Like I got the walk sign and I'mlike wiggling where I'm walking

(54:49):
because I don't want to hold anybody up, right?
But the truth is, is some peoplewait until the fucking thing is
on top of them before they learnto jump.
So, so part of this is you know it when you know it.
Like if you've got something deeply structurally based, you
will know it. I don't, I can't explain to you

(55:11):
other than that if you get like really sharp, sharp pain that's
very consistent with a particular movement that you
could reproduce, you might want to get that checked out.
If it's, you know, I'm generallysore or, you know, this
hamstring really is kind of hurt.
And I kind of like to give that 24 hours, let it be what it's
going to be, let it kind of settle down and kind of really

(55:31):
evaluate it then. But here's my stick on pain.
Pain is a ubiquitous human condition.
It is the one of the things thatunifies all of us.
We all experience this and, and it's partly our perception in
the sense that it's, it's framedwithin all of the experience and

(55:53):
context of your life, right. And the biology itself, this,
the physical signaling that happens from hardware to
software. So, you know, again, it's, it's
tricky because like, if I were to kick you in the shin, that's
going to hurt, but it's going toget better really quickly
because that's mostly tissue based for the people that were
talking about who are in chronicpain, right?

(56:13):
That's kind of more what we would consider top down or, or
brain based, meaning that all ofthe available information in
that person's lived experience is saying fucking fucking
danger, fucking danger, right? And a lot of people feel the
freight train on them kind of when it's too late and, and, or

(56:35):
like you're really far down. And now you have to really
overhaul a lot of things to kindof bring the system down into a
state of safety, right? So if we if wanna change, pain
isn't a damage meter per SE, butit is a threat meter.
It is your brains interpretationof proximal threat or even
internal threat. So if you're generally an
unhealthy person, your joints are going to hurt.

(56:57):
Is that inflammation? Sure, partly.
But it's not just the physical stuff that's happening in you.
It's your nervous systems interpretation of your readiness
for when real stuff's going to happen.
I love that. Two things, one, just for the
coaches listening if you you maynow you'll pick up on it.

(57:19):
You may not have noticed. This is a tip I give coaches and
I haven't talked about the podcast, but I think it's so
huge in coaching analogies and acronyms.
People love acronyms and analogies.
So when we can take our systems and methods and we put it into
an acronym, it clicks. They remember it because they
can say the word and then it breaks down into something.
And then analogies and stories and experiences and things.
You've talked about the freight training, you've talked about

(57:40):
laying on a bed of nails. You talked about the boat
dragging the rudder. Like all these things make me
go, Yep, OK, that makes sense now.
Like it clicks so great work with that, man.
I just wanted to point that out because I think people
listening, they'll be hearing you and they probably it's
clicking really well with them and they might not understand
why, but if you're a coach, liketake that and use it because it

(58:00):
just, it does help so much. But This is why it's so
fascinating to me talking with you about stuff, man.
Like after our conversation, I started thinking about so much
more than just my back, 'cause then I was like, OK, well, I
have had two knee surgeries. So let me like think about that
a little bit. And you know what's there?
I've had some atrophy on my leftfoot and Achilles and ankle
because of the surgeries. And I didn't know that until I
went and did the feet fleet thing for running shoes and they

(58:23):
like tested my feet. I was like, why is my right foot
an inch bigger? And like, it's thicker.
It's just crazy. I'm like, OK, there's that.
I don't know this for sure, but it makes me kind of want to go
get like a ultrasound or MRI or something.
But my daughter was born with a kidney issue.
So one's bigger than the other. And it, she ended up having
kidney surgery and stuff. And it's, it's genetic, it's

(58:45):
hereditary. So one of us, there's like a 99%
chance the doctor said me or my wife has it.
Now the way you figure it out, it becomes issue.
The sign or signal is a UTI, very unlikely that my wife had
it because she would know because she would have had a
bunch of Utis and had issues as a kid.
I didn't I'm a boy. It's a lot harder to have Utis
as a boy. So I probably had that which
people don't think about this, but internally, you know, we

(59:06):
have organs that are on different sides that are
different sizes, sometimes just on one side.
Kidneys aren't supposed to be this way, but I might have one
that's bigger and it's making room and, and my shifting.
And so my mind starts going to all these places and I'm like,
one, This is why individualization is so key 2, I
can't, I'm not going to be married to a barbell back squad
or any bilateral movement forever.
Like maybe it is maybe unilateral in some ways is

(59:27):
better for me. It doesn't mean I can't do the
other, but that I'll consider that when loading heavy on my
spine and blah, blah, blah. Like you open up this door of
it's, it's kind of like a can ofworms, but like in a really good
way because it gets people thinking.
And I think if you can do that, you really start to discover so
much more. You know what I mean?
Like, I know just from our conversation in North Carolina

(59:49):
when when I was out there and mymind was just going and going
and going after that. Now with this podcast, it's even
worse. But like.
I have that effect. It's but it's bad.
Well, I think the way I again, there's two ways to look at this
and and this is kind of like theargument in the rehab industry
as a whole, which is like don't be nocebic and.

(01:00:09):
You know, we, your words matter and that's all true.
And I think for a lot of people,especially on social media, a
lot of these things are pleasantries and sound bites
that sound great, but they don'treally understand what it means.
And so everything when I'm the people I see, you know, I'm a
cash pay provider, right? So generally speaking, when
people come and they pony up their cash, they're just looking

(01:00:31):
for anything at that point. They've been through the
standard PT, the standard Cairo,they've gone to the trainer at
the gym, they've done, they've gone to the doctor, all the
specialists, right? And all of those people are
giving information. And that's fine and their
perspective, which is great. But until you can frame a way
where you show people the opportunity and not just the
flaw and they're the same thing,but the way you frame it into

(01:00:57):
this is where you, if we put your attention, where you're
going to start to see some reward.
And my favorite part about kind of the storytelling aspect of
this is when I'm taking people through a movement assessment,
that's exactly what I'm trying to do.
I'm trying to help them understand the story of their
own body and the story of how their habits have influenced
that, not in a negative way, butjust so that they can take back

(01:01:20):
the agency over it. It's like, OK, you have a flat
spine. That's not a bad thing.
It's just part of your equation.Now that you have this
information, we can modify so that you're more successful in
the things that you want to do. You know, because that's one of
the cards that maybe you didn't get to choose.
That's fine. Now, we can also start to expose
you to very particular stimuli that yields an adaptation that's

(01:01:42):
favorable for you. But we have to agree what those
adaptations are. And low back pain isn't a very
compelling diagnosis. Shoulder impingement isn't a
compelling diagnosis. That gives you enough
information to say exactly what variables were going to change
and why that's important. So this is kind of when it
matters, when it matters. And, you know, some people on
online will be like, oh, Mike does all this stuff and it's

(01:02:03):
unnecessary to get good results.Yeah, maybe that's the case, but
I'm just trying to reduce the likelihood that I don't get the
positive result. I'm not trying to be right.
I'm just trying to be less wrongabout what it is that I'm
actually trying to do. And that's what research and
science does for us. It doesn't tell us what's right.
It tells us how to be less wrong, right.
And so I think a lot of people think that there's, you know,

(01:02:26):
all we got to do with this very particular way.
It's like, well, if that ain't getting it done and the person
doesn't believe or buy into that, then what's the what's the
utility? Yeah.
Well, and even just saying that's unnecessary to anything
that goes down a path of well for who, you know, when you're
talking to somebody right now who does have a quote UN quote
shoulder impingement and does have a quote UN quote low back

(01:02:49):
pain, traditional help hasn't helped so.
And what did we talk about? We talked about maybe some
different ideas of areas of yourbody where you have a little bit
of a deficit you could that you could leverage that you could
now exploit and turn that into something that's, you know, you
work on that hip mobility and itimproves the environment around
these other joints. And again, do we know for sure

(01:03:11):
that that's going to make a meaningful change?
No, we don't. But nothing's a guarantee.
But nowhere in medicine like yougo to have a surgery for an
orthopedist and on the paperworkyou sign for consent, it says
you accept that there's no guarantee of a positive outcome
to this like that you have to sign on the dotted line.
And I think, you know, to the point in PT now in 2025, where

(01:03:33):
it's like a lot of people are just apathetic towards therapy
at this point because they've had such underwhelming
experience with it. And again, I'm just trying to
change that from the way the place looks to the way the place
smells to the way a place feels to the, to the attention that
you get. And so it makes it obvious that
it's worth giving it a shot because it's just so different.

(01:03:55):
Yeah, well, and man, you're doing a great job at it because.
I appreciate that. I mean, again, this is me just
speaking from it. The little interaction we've had
around it has helped open my mind and get me thinking more.
And it is. And it it is.
You asked me about other things.You asked me not just like,
yeah, like, I can't do bench. It's like, OK, well, do you
really care about bench? Not I really.
Honestly, it's not my favorite life.

(01:04:16):
I don't care that much. It we kept going down rabbit
hole and it boiled down to like,I hated when my wife said no,
no, no, Dad's back hurts when mydaughter wanted me to pick her
up. Like that very moment was the
the trigger. And I didn't.
And this is being human. I didn't sit there and journal
about that afterwards. I ignored it because I was like,
I don't want to think about that.
Like it's a subconscious thing until somebody, you asked me

(01:04:38):
what was the thing and then I said it out loud and I was like,
God, that stings. I hate that.
But. But it's a moment of realization
that a lot of people have to have.
And you just don't get that in adoctor's office anymore.
It's just not that you're not getting that like, like, OK, you
need to exercise and eat well and, you know, eat less eggs and
then whatever they tell you to do.
And it's just so rehearsed and repeated and that you're just

(01:05:01):
like, it's just like when the teacher is teaching your ABC's,
right? And just get bored to death
because it's the same thing overand over, getting over, just so
apathetic to the information, even though it's good
information, right. So again, I think partly the
storytelling, the analogies, theit's just ways to help people
connect to themselves and to their process on a more personal

(01:05:21):
level for themselves, at the very least for them.
Yeah. Dude, it's this has been
amazing. We'll wrap up there because I
think it's just a good spot to end on.
We're at just over an hour. I could keep talking to you.
We'll have to have you on, man, because I do it again.
Again. I have a few more questions that
I think we could just like rapidfire on that you can just spit
like knowledge and facts on, youknow, like really like more the

(01:05:43):
science like let's talk. I'm game.
That's first movement. Like there's so many aspects and
I for me, like I'm in the same boat in a different spectrum.
You know, it's, it's weight lossnutrition, but we want to help
people optimize. We want to help people stop
living as average because average is not good.
Like you should set the standardhigher.
And it takes specialists and seeking information to achieve

(01:06:04):
that. Like you're not going to get it
through the doctor or insurance or anything like that.
It's very, very rare. So anyway, I love it, man.
I want to quickly kind of point people in the right direction.
So your Instagram, your company's Instagram website,
anything you offer where your gym's at for people, if there is
any online stuff, whatever you got, like can you break that
down for us so they can go check?

(01:06:25):
Totally. It's my pleasure.
So you know the name of the company is the movement
Underground. You can check us out movement
underground.com. You could I'm on social at Mike
Stella under score ATC. So that's like TikTok,
Instagram. Obviously we have those accounts
for the business as well. We do virtual coaching.
So I do a lot of like virtual assessments with people.
And, and it's really just exactly like we talked about.

(01:06:45):
It's let's sit down and talk foran hour and kind of like really
start to dig through the story and, and start to feel find
where these connections are and then start attacking some of
these connections, right. And so a lot of what we do in
person and online is just again,helping people see the
opportunity in their own processand, and to get them to buy into

(01:07:08):
that by showing them and having them experience in real time how
some of the limitations to theirmovement do affect the sports
activities, hobbies and things that they want to do.
And then now start to treat thismore like the sports performance
side where it's creating adaptations that are favorable,
right? So find us online.
I put out a ton of content and Ilove that stuff too.

(01:07:28):
It's super fun. And you know, so again, we're in
Long Island, New York, strong island, baby.
It's a, we got a little stronghold of like really cool
little spots like this. I'm about an hour east of the
city in Seaford, NY, as it were.And the best part for me is my,
my house is literally 3 minutes away.
So like we're, we're operating in the community that I live in,
which was really important to me.
And you know, it's been awesome,man Super stoked.

(01:07:51):
I love it, dude. Well, thank you for coming on
spending. Some thanks for having me.
Appreciate it brother. Absolutely.
We'll have you back on. I'm going to drop all that stuff
in the show notes of this podcast.
You guys can go check him out and follow him and seek help if
you need it. Otherwise, thank you guys for
listening. We'll catch you next time.

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#83 - Mike Stella: Pain isn't the Problem — It’s the Teacher (Movement Underground)

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}#83 - Mike Stella: Pain isn't the Problem — It’s the Teacher (Movement Underground)