August 7, 2025 • 55 mins
CNN anchor and political correspondent Abby Phillip joins Deborah Joy Winans Williams on Choosing Joy for an unfiltered and deeply human conversation on identity, motherhood, ambition, and letting go of perfection.
From her roots in Trinidad and the DMV to her journey through Harvard and into the national spotlight, Abby opens up about what it means to live with purpose, protect your peace, and embrace the unknown. She shares the highs and lows of working in political media during chaotic times, and why truth, even when hard to hold onto, is still worth chasing.
This episode is a masterclass in resilience, clarity, and joy. Abby reveals how motherhood has reshaped her priorities, what it takes to recharge in a demanding world, and how she learned to choose herself, even when it meant walking away from expectations.
✨ Whether you're navigating your own dualities, striving for balance in work and life, or figuring out how to hold onto joy in a world full of noise—this conversation is your permission to slow down, listen inward, and stay grounded in who you really are.
Chapters
00:00 – Sponsored Message: Wellness for Kids & Parents
01:00 – Why Abby Phillip is That Woman
02:00 – Childhood in Trinidad & the DMV
04:00 – Memory Loss as a Coping Mechanism
06:00 – The Joy of Family, Even from a Distance
08:00 – College Years & Feeling Lost at Harvard
10:00 – The Trip That Changed Her Career Path
12:00 – Why Journalism Still Matters
14:00 – The Struggle to Find Truth in the Chaos
16:00 – Letting Go of Internet Clashes
18:00 – Learning to Recharge as an Introvert
20:00 – Intentional Joy & Small Daily Rituals
22:00 – The Power of Knowing Yourself
24:00 – Constantly Becoming & Purpose Over Perfection
26:00 – Pushing Through Self-Doubt & Expectations
28:00 – Why Perseverance Is Her Superpower
30:00 – Joy as a Choice, Affirmations & Boundaries
33:00 – How Traveling Solo Rekindled Her Power
35:00 – Becoming a Mother Changed Everything
38:00 – Redefining What It Means to “Be Ready”
41:00 – The Lie of the “Perfect Time” to Have Kids
44:00 – Building a Life That Will Be There for You
47:00 – Choosing Joy in Relationships
50:00 – Final Reflections on Joy, Power & Self-Knowledge
54:00 – Deborah Joy’s Reflection & Close
💬 What resonated with you most in Abby’s story—her motherhood journey, her honesty about self-doubt, or her commitment to telling the truth?
🔔 Download episode now!
#AbbyPhillip #ChoosingJoyPodcast #DeborahJoyWinansWilliams #WomenInMedia #BlackWomenInJournalism #AuthenticityMatters #MotherhoodAndCareer #TruthInJournalism #PowerOfJoy #PurposeOverPerfection
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
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Speaker 3 (00:44):
And I should say, honestly, we have some mutual friends, yes,
in common, but you're one.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Of those people.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
I see you on social media and I'm like, we
really should be friends, we should hate.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
So you've been my friend in my mind exactly.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
That is honestly how I I'm.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
Very excited because I get to talk to someone who
I have crazy respect for. She doesn't know this because
this is my first time meeting her, but she is
someone that I consider Like when she's talking, you stop
and you listen.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
And when I tell you.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Homegirls clap back game is on one hundred. I have
mad respect. The country is so lucky to have her
as a political correspondent and anchor of her own show,
Newsnight with Abby Philip. Okay, so there's that, and she's
here on the couch with me. So I'm very lucky
(01:47):
to have miss Abby Philip here.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Thank you for choosing joy today to be here. I'm
so happy you're here.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
So I want to talk to you just about your
journey in this world of politics, like where you grew up.
You are in the capital, the mecca where everything goes down.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
What made you get into it?
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Actually, I really want to know, because you grew up
in the DMV but also in Trinidad.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Yeah, what was that? Like?
Speaker 3 (02:21):
It's it's such a obviously it's a long story, right,
and your life has all these chapters and all these
different parts of your journey, but it is probably right
to start there because you know, my parents are immigrants.
They came to this country with very little knowing basically
(02:41):
no one. And I was born here in the United
States and Virginia when my dad was in school finishing
his degree at Howard and shortly after that my parents
moved back to Trinidad. So I lived there from the
time I was about maybe four months old until.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
I was nine.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
So the early part of my childhood, I was a
little Trinny girl with an accent, running around, you know,
care free, knowing that we had this connection to the
United States because both me and my older sister were
both born here. There were three of us at the time,
and eventually my parents came back to the US and
(03:22):
then we came up a few months later, and that
was the rest of my life. And in so many ways,
my whole life is just about these two existences that
I've always had, being a child of immigrants but also
being essentially American. We didn't go back to Trinidad very
(03:43):
often when I was a kid because we didn't have
a lot of money, and so I didn't go back
to Trinidad until I was an adult.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Until I was.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
Twenty something and I was out in the working world.
So I kind of felt like that was sort of
almost like a forgotten part of my life. There were
parts of my childhood that I completely erased from my memory.
My accent was gone. I had this experience of just
(04:14):
trying so hard to fit in that my brain just
sort of as a coping mechanism. There were just a
lot of things about my childhood that I didn't remember,
and I've always kind of regretted that, obviously, because I
want to remember those things. And I think I've been
kind of on this journey of trying to remember that
part of my culture in different ways, but living that
(04:36):
duality of life as a child, as an adolescent, as
an adult, and as a journalist. It helps me understand
other people, right, because my whole existence has been coming
to what place and making it work with people who
are different from me, and that helps me tremendously work
(05:00):
that I do, and I really do think it's the
reason why when people are like, how can you deal
with these people who have these views? I approach every
person as they have a different experience for me, let
me try to understand where they're coming from.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
And it's hard, and maybe, you.
Speaker 3 (05:19):
Know, maybe there are times when I vehemently disagree with
what they're saying. But I fundamentally believe in our ability
to hear each other out. And I think it comes
from the fact that I had to acclimate at a
very young ageah, something totally and completely different from.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
What I was used to that's major, and that's not
something that I think the typical American understands acclimating trying
to figure it out.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
I think we do as people of color. I think
we're always like.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
Yeah, we're just yeah, we're used to being in spaces
where there are not people.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
Like yes, for sure, where it feels like we don't belong.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
Is there any part of that when you think about Trinidad?
Is there any part where, even if you can't distinctly
remember what it was, do you remember the feeling of joy?
Speaker 2 (06:11):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (06:12):
Yeah, I mean one of the things about my childhood
was that my family they I grew up in Trinidad
in a very small town, almost like a village, okay,
and everybody in my family basically lived there. And my
grandmother's house, a little tiny house that my grandfather built
with his own hands, was set on a block and
(06:35):
surrounded by other family members.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (06:38):
And so growing up as a kid, my cousins were
always around, My aunts and uncles were always around, and.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
I missed that.
Speaker 3 (06:46):
Yeah, it's in the way our modern life doesn't even
allow for that in the same way, But growing up,
that's what it was like, like we were always I
was always at my aunts and uncle's house, playing with
my cousins. They were always at at our house. We
lived with my grandmother for a long time. And that
(07:06):
idea of family just being a part of your life,
not people visiting, but just they're part of your life.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
And that part is so clear to me.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
And you don't necessarily remember every moment, but you remember
how it made you feel. And I still I feel
like I still chase that feeling even today. We recently
we used to live in d C, Washington, d C.
We just moved to New York. My parents still live
(07:37):
in Maryland, my siblings still live there. So we actually
just moved away from my family for the first time.
And it was tough. It was tough, and it's harder now.
You have to really create those moments.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
Because also your mom.
Speaker 3 (07:52):
Yeah yeah, and my daughter is so close to my
parents and her aunts and uncles, and I'm grateful for
the time that she had while we were all in
the same place. But you know, like I said, you
create the feeling, right, It just it's on.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
You now to do it. Yeah, yeah, and you just
have to be intentional.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
Yeah, So before we get to mom stuff, because I
really I it changed my life. Yeah, yeah, like it
rocked my world. So I'm very interested in what that
was like for you. But I want to what was
the moment where you knew or felt like journalism was
(08:31):
where you were headed.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
When I was in college, I was very adrift, Okay,
I really I didn't know like how A doing.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
I mean, I wasn't like.
Speaker 3 (08:45):
Failing out necessarily, but I wasn't doing exceptionally well, which
is what I had been used to. I mean, I
was a top student in my high school. I went
to a public high school, and then I got into
Harvard and that was like a life changing thing. Yeah,
but it was so different from everything that I'd ever
experienced before.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
I really struggled.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
And I was freshman year, sophomore year in a bit
of a dark place, not really feeling very I was
feeling very isolated because Harvard's a place where there are
a lot of kids who are extremely smart, very elite.
Actually a lot of the black kids are very elite,
(09:28):
which is completely different from the sort of working class,
middle class lifestyle that I had. And I didn't know
what I wanted to do, and it felt like everybody
else around me did. And I thought I wanted to
be a doctor. Then I realized I couldn't.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
Hang I just.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
I just it wasn't it was not right for me
because the things that I had to do in order
to do it, I couldn't get through those things without
feeling like I was spiraling down.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
So I made a.
Speaker 3 (09:56):
Complete radical shift and I started focusing on the just
trying different things and focusing on the things that made
me feel like good okay. And I started writing for
the college paper and I enjoyed that. And then the
thing that really changed it for me was when I
(10:17):
went on this spring break trip that was a very
unconventional spring break trip, but it was to the South.
It was to Mississippi, that is, and it was we
were like retracing the steps of the Civil Rights movement.
And I was blogging my experience of being on that
trip and kind of just seeing, you know, where Cheney,
(10:38):
Schorener and Goodman were killed, where Emmitt Till was killed,
like all of these things that you read about being
in that place that was life changing for me. And
having to describe that and writing about it and evoking
the history that changed everything for me. And it made
(10:59):
me realize, first of all, I wanted to be a
part of something that I felt like had an impact
on the world. And I really felt like in all
of those stories, the storytellers who brought those stories to
the rest of the world helped change the trajectory of
this country, absolutely right. So I felt like that was
(11:21):
a thing I wanted to be a part of. And
then the other thing was we were meeting people who
were just regular people who lived in Mississippi and seeing
their experiences and thinking, to myself, nobody knows about what
it's like here to be a young black child in
(11:42):
Sunflower County, Mississippi. It's a forgotten place, and journalism is
about really fundamentally going to those places and bringing those
stories to the world. And it was just a concept.
It was a philosophy, a mission that I just felt
(12:02):
like I could get behind that I can see myself
doing that, and my life has taken me in all
kinds of different directions. There are all these things that
I thought I wanted to do in journalism that I
just haven't done. They're not regrets, but it's just sort
of like the beauty of life is that it takes
you in a different journey. But that's the motivation. I
mean that's where I started at. Yeah, that's where my
(12:25):
heart is when it comes to this business. And it's
honestly still what keeps me going.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
Yeah, Well, I was reading where you said at one
point that the truth can be a moving target. How
in this political climate today, how do you continue to
find that truth in the midst of this chaos and
(12:55):
still do it with a piece of sanity, of joy,
of happiness like that motivation.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
I mean joy. Let me tell you, it is hard, Yakay.
Speaker 3 (13:08):
This environment is the most difficult environment that I've ever
worked in.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Yeah, and.
Speaker 3 (13:14):
I've been doing this fourteen years since I graduated from college. Yeah,
and it's never been this hard, and it's never been
this thankless. And it's not a woe is Me kind
of thing because I've got a great job and a
great life. But it's getting harder to get to that truth.
(13:36):
I still believe in truth, Okay. I think there are
real things in the world, things that are real and
things that are not real, things that are true, and things.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
That are false.
Speaker 3 (13:45):
But the way in which we all live in these
information silos and everybody gets to decide which truth they
want to believe that is not getting any better.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
It might be getting worse.
Speaker 3 (13:57):
Yeah, and I wish I could say that we are
breaking through and making a dent.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
Sometimes I don't think. I don't know that we're making
a dent. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
Yeah, it's very difficult to figure out if what you're
doing is actually I think it's still worth doing.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
Yeah, but.
Speaker 3 (14:15):
There are a lot of days, especially these days, where
I think people are retreating into their corners and they
don't want to hear people who tell them anything that's
different from what they already believe. I think we have
a responsibility to continue to do what we do, what
(14:35):
we try to do.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
I don't want people to think like I don't. I
always come to.
Speaker 3 (14:39):
This with a lot of humility. Right, We are not perfect.
I'm a human being. I make mistakes. But the reason
that I think journalism works is because there's a process
for admitting your mistakes, you correct things. The integrity of
being able to say I was wrong about this. We
thought this was true and it turns out there's more
(15:00):
information now this is true. I still believe in that.
I still think we have to do it. I still
think there are people out there who really they're making
a whole lot of money and getting a ton of
followers by literally lying to people every single day. Yeah,
and if somebody doesn't stand up for the idea that
(15:21):
there is truth out there, I don't know who will.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
Yeah, it'll just continue to be a place that no
longer feels like it's worth the living.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
And we are here to be that light.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
We are here to continue to tell the stories, to
continue the truth, to continue disrupting bad behavior even when
it feels like it's not helping, where it feels like
nobody sees it. In those moments, for me, I always think, well, God.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
Knows, God sees, and I'm doing what.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
I'm supposed to do even when it feels like nobody
gets it, even when it feels like it's not moving
the needle at all.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
And that is a way for.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
Me to be able to smile and find joy in
the middle of the chaos.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
So when you have these moments of like, is this
even doing anything? Yealling crazy? How do you find a smile?
Speaker 3 (16:26):
Yeah? I mean you know, like you said, God knows, right,
So not every time. My principle about this is that
I don't have to win. I don't have to be
seen as winning every battle. Yeah, sometimes people are coming
at me and I was thinking the other day, I
was like, you know, my superpower is just not taking
(16:49):
the ban I just I don't because there's a lot
of power in not engaging with people and not engaging
with negativity, because people want you to come back at
them so that they can feel power from your reaction.
And most of the time, I just say I'm letting
(17:13):
this go. I might respond once, I might respond twice,
but we're not going to keep going.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
Back back and forth. OK.
Speaker 3 (17:20):
And I think that there's something to be said for
letting certain things go because you don't need to the
world doesn't need to see you as the victor in
every battle because it's not really about that. There are
other things that are more important. And so I let
(17:41):
some of that stuff go. And I know that in
every moment, I try my best, and I come back
the next day and I try again, and I come
back the next day and I try again. And in
between those moments, I recharge myself, right because I'm an introvert.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
I have to. This battery gets deployed. What that recharge
look like? I mean, I.
Speaker 3 (18:08):
Pretty aggressively these days. Compartmentalize my life, right, like you know,
work can feel you know, constant and all encompassing, But
there are things in my personal life, my daughter, my family.
I try to bake, I try to you know, there
are things that I try to do to keep space
(18:31):
for things that are mine. And this is something I
had to learn about myself in college. You know, I
was so used to just going, going, going going, that
I never really knew what made me happy. What are
the things that I actually enjoy doing, and how do
I carve out time to actually do those things?
Speaker 2 (18:52):
And so it's not a long list.
Speaker 3 (18:56):
It's pretty so short list. I don't have it that
much time. But you know, my family is incredibly important
to me. I carve out time for my daughter. It's
the number one already that I have. It's my responsibility,
but it also brings me joy.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
But I also I like being in my house. I
like being in my home.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
I will go to the corner and I will buy
flowers and I will put them all over my house
and make arrangements, just small things that I look around
and I find peace in my space. I find peace
and taking care of the people that I love.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
I love baking.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
I like nourishing myself with things that make my body
feel good. I like having a glass of wine from
time to time. So those things that you do, I
just have that list, and I just when I feel
like I need to recharge, I just go back to
that list and take them off, because it's the only way.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
It really is.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
I think that self care is the best care, because
when you're trying to pour from an empty cup to
give absolutely nothing. Was it in college where you realized
you didn't know exactly what made you happy? Or was
it just as an adult adult when you are on
(20:16):
your own, paying your own bills and you realize, you know,
I don't actually know what I like.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
It's a journey.
Speaker 3 (20:23):
Yeah, I mean I think that in college I realized
that I didn't know what made me happy for sure,
and that if I wasn't intentional about understanding the things that,
you know, turn the dial toward happiness versus terming the
dial toward depression, I.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
Would more easily be in that other. Yeah. So I
it was that realization.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
I think it's been, you know, maybe like a fifteen
twenty year journey of at different junctures figuring out what
are those things that do make me happy? And also
bringing myself back. I mean, look, the reality is that
we all have moments in our lives when we're not
We're not our cup is not full. Yeah, and of
(21:12):
course every time that happens, I've had to recalibrate.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
Okay, So is it really this person that's making you unhappy?
Speaker 3 (21:21):
Or are you not taking responsibility for your own happiness?
And is it really that, like this job is not
right or are you not focusing on the things that
you actually do want to do or are you focusing
on the things.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
That you don't want to do? And I've been on
that journey my whole adult life.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
Yeah, So have you noticed that things shift as you
get older? The things that we're making you happy at
twenty five are not necessarily the things that are making
happy at thirty or thirty, you know what I mean?
Speaker 3 (21:54):
I mean absolutely, yeah, I just you know, it's just
acknowledging things about myself and the way that I feel
like I am different from other people. I'm a outgoing
but a very introverted person. So I like my me time,
I like being in my home. I was never the
(22:16):
twenty year old. Twenty something year old we wanted to
be out in the streets all the time, and it
always honestly, it made me feel like there was something
wrong with me and that like I just was like
not a likable person. And you know, I just realized
it's just not for me.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Yeah, and that's okay, and.
Speaker 3 (22:39):
That's okay, Like some things are just not for you. Yes,
And in my thirties, I mean honestly, as I've gotten older,
my life has gotten better and better and I've gotten
more comfortable in my skin. And I am like the
world's greatest No, like you cancel plans with me, I'm thrilled.
(23:03):
I love being in my house. Yes, okay, I love
having dinner parties in my home. I love a small
group of friends. I do not need to be best
friends with everybody, and realizing that about myself has been
so liberating. It's been so liberating just there are certain
(23:25):
things I don't need, even if there are things that
other people have and seem like the norm. And now
I'm thirty six, I feel like I know that I
know myself better than I've ever known myself before. There's
still so many things about my life where it's like
(23:48):
you're always asking yourself, how do I get closer to
my purpose? Yes, Yes, I don't even think I'm there
yet now right, I still think that I'm on that
path too.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
That's what is really my purpose? Yes?
Speaker 3 (24:05):
And what am I doing something every day that gets
me closer to Yeah? Is the thing I think about constantly. Yeah,
I think that has to be the goal.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
I think that we live in this world world where
people feel like, oh I'm not there yet, dang it,
I've messed up, or I've missed out, or I'm no.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
This is all the journey. It's it's it's you constantly
like ore, forever float.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
It says you are constantly becoming, continue becoming everything that
you are meant to be.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
It's not supposed to be overnight, it's not supposed to
be in five It's it's you are.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
You are coming into contact with the people you are
meant to meet, You are meant to be a light to,
you are meant to share space with. You are continuously
becoming everything and getting closer and closer.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
To that goal.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
But the destination is not the journey, Like, don't discount
the journey because you're only looking at where you gotta
get to.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Yeah, I mean you'll miss out on the beauty when't we.
Speaker 3 (25:11):
Think of like when I think back on my twenties,
I could never have imagined the life that.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
I'm living right now.
Speaker 3 (25:18):
Never mm, honestly, M And it wasn't even in my mind.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (25:24):
And I that journey has been so unpredictable.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
And there were so many moments in that in that
journey where my m mind was telling me you're.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
Not good enough.
Speaker 3 (25:38):
Mm, just stop right now and go do something else,
because this is not for you to wow. And I
felt that was that was I I was telling myself that.
I felt like I was getting that message from people
around me.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
And I'm glad that.
Speaker 3 (25:53):
I didn't listen to it, Yeah, because I really I would.
I wouldn't be sitting here if I had.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
And what was the thing that made you push through that?
Speaker 3 (26:06):
It's a sense of honestly, it's a sense of obligation.
I mean, we started talking about my immigrant family, and
I have a big family. I have five brothers and sisters,
and I've always been kind of like the caretaker of
the family.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
And so.
Speaker 3 (26:26):
It has not always come from a place. That's always
a good thing, right when you feel like you have
to kind of carry the burden yourself. But I have
always felt that way for most of my adult life,
and it's been a motivator. I don't give up because
I can't. I literally cannot. It's not an option. Too
(26:49):
many people count on me.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
I just can't. And sometimes that's been a hard life
to carry. It's a lot.
Speaker 3 (27:02):
There were times in my life where I was like,
I wish I could be unburdened and do whatever I
want and move wherever I want, and just you know,
there have been times where I've been like, oh, I
just want to quit my job and go do something
completely different, and a lot of times I just haven't
done it because I felt like that was just not
(27:22):
an option. For keeping going has always been the only
thing I felt like I could do, starting from when
I got that acceptance letter to get into Harvard, from
that moment on until where I sit here now. Most
(27:46):
of the time when I have kept going, it is
because I felt genuinely like I had no choice, and
that turned out for.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
Me to be.
Speaker 3 (27:58):
Just maybe what I needed to do what I think
is the right thing to do, which is that perseverance
through the tough moments is the difference between success and failure.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
Absolutely, and I didn't.
Speaker 3 (28:10):
Really know that for a long time, and now I
tell people that all the time, and it's not just
like a cliche.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
It's literally like the people.
Speaker 3 (28:22):
The guys, many of them men who are running around
here being super successful despite failing all the time, can
do that because they just don't take failure as an answer.
And me, my brain was like, you suck, you failed,
please stop. And it's only that obligation to the people
(28:45):
that around me that I think forced me to not
listen to that, and I'm grateful for it. It's kind
of like the challenge that God gives you to to
force you into your.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
Yes, whether you know it or not.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
He's constantly guiding you, giving you these moments, these reminders,
these hey no, no, no, this is where you're meant
to be.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
So I have two more questions one. So for me, I.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
Didn't really recognize how much of a choice joy was
until like my early to mid thirties, because I felt
I'm a family girl, and I have always tried to
live up to what my family standards were for me
and not just what I felt like God had for
(29:42):
me and my dreams and my passions.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
It was like, oh, but I gotta do it like
this because then they'll be pleased and.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
I had to let that go and figure out what
was best for me, what made me happy, What did
I feel like God have for me to do, and
choose that even when it's difficult, even when I know.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
It's gonna bring me joy.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
But they may not like it, or they may not
support it, or they think it's crazy, but it brought
me joy. But I realized it's a choice. I can
either choose to try and live and make somebody else happy.
I can choose and try to live the life that
I feel like God has given me and that makes
me happy. Was there a point in your life where
(30:24):
you fully recognize, oh, this is this joy is a choice.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
Yeah, I can choose.
Speaker 3 (30:29):
This or not.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean.
Speaker 3 (30:33):
When I was in college and I was trying to
come out of a kind of low period of my life.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
At that point, I used to.
Speaker 3 (30:46):
Write notes to myself on post it notes and put
them up on the mirrors in the bathroom and in
my room, just places that I would be looking.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
Roommates were like, what are you doing? I didn't even know.
Speaker 3 (31:03):
I mean at the time, I didn't know what affirmations were.
It wasn't like a concept that I knew about. I
just knew that I had to constantly remind myself of
the positive side of the moment that I was in,
of the things that I loved, the things that brought
(31:24):
me joy, the things that brought me peace. And it
kind of started there and it's taken all kinds of
different forms where honestly, that's how I am is like
I'm going to do what I want to do. And
I mean, you can ask my husband about this, because
he's like, he's like, one thing I know about you
(31:45):
is that you're just going to do what you want
to do.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
And that's I've earned that.
Speaker 3 (31:50):
Yeah, Okay, That's how I feel about it, is that
I have earned the ability to do that. That like,
when I want I want to go try something new,
I don't wait for other people. I don't wait for
other people's approval. If it's right for me, I will
I will do it. And I try to like just
(32:12):
remind myself to think about that, because it's easy for
me to just sort of do what other people want
to be accommodating. But I just literally remind myself that's
not what you want to do, since I'll do it, Yeah,
and I don't do it.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
And I don't.
Speaker 3 (32:28):
It's just a part of me now that I've gotten
over the idea that it makes me feel. It makes
me seem unyielding, it makes me seem self centered or
whatever it is. But it's also about not waiting for
other people to get joy out of your own life.
Speaker 2 (32:49):
You're the old person responsible for me, yes.
Speaker 3 (32:53):
And it's not friends, it's not boyfriends, it's not your husband,
it's nobody but you.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
It's you.
Speaker 3 (32:59):
And I count myself lucky in a way because that
some of that comes naturally to me, you know, the
kind of the things that make me feel joy, sitting
in a beautiful coffee shop and having a latte and
reading a book. Yeah, And I don't need to wait
for anybody in order to do that. I'll just go
do it. A couple of years ago, I hadn't traveled
(33:20):
alone in a long time. You know, my husband and
I've been together for twelve thirteen years, so I don't
we're not like alone. I'm not alone back often. But
a couple of years ago, I had to work on
something and I went on a trip to Mexico by myself,
and it was like just this incredible experience of like
(33:41):
rediscovering myself.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
I rented a vespa and I like was whispering around
by myself and I was like, oh, my am.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
I I was like, oh, I guess I am doing this,
you know.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
And I was like, you know what, this is who
I am? Like, this is actually who I am.
Speaker 3 (34:02):
I don't I don't need to try, like you need
other people to do the things that make me happy.
And sometimes you also need to do that to check
in with yourself and be by yourself and live with
yourself and remind yourself, Okay, I'm alone. Now, there's nobody
(34:22):
else around me to influence how I feel about things,
what feels good in.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
That moment, and that can be really powerful, really powerful.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
Just rediscovering and continuously discovering who you are and how
you've changed, what makes you happy, and what you like
and what you.
Speaker 2 (34:41):
Now don't like. That's beautiful. Yeah, I mean, it's not
the end. There's no every it's it's always.
Speaker 3 (34:48):
It's all these chapters in your life, right and at
different phases in your life, you find things out about
yourself and you know, I'm I'm okay with that journey too,
you know, of just self discovery and getting closer to
your to your own, your own understanding of your athens.
(35:12):
Ye see, I think people don't realize how much they
don't know about themselves. And maybe you know, they spend
a lot of time in therapy or whatever and that helps,
which I think it does help, But most of us
don't know ourselves well enough to realize how we are
kind of living in response to other people so often.
(35:34):
And I'm still on that journey. Most people I know
are still on that journey. But at least I know, yeah,
that that's what's happening.
Speaker 2 (35:46):
No, and it's and it's it's active.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
It's not you're not living passively waiting for things to
happen to you. You are proactively living your life and
that includes making choices and setting boundaries that maybe other
people may not like, but it's what you need. It's
good for you, and it's good for your family. I
do want to ask I have one more before my
(36:10):
last prompt, which is about motherhood.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
So for me, I was always.
Speaker 1 (36:18):
Like, when I get married, if we really really love
each other, then you know, maybe we'll have a baby.
And we did. We had a baby. I popped up
pregnant and I was like, wait, what's going on?
Speaker 2 (36:29):
What happened. It always does seem to happen that I
popped up pregnant. They were like, oh, you weren't trying.
I was like, well, I mean, I guess we weren't.
Not that's trying, but just sort of happened.
Speaker 1 (36:40):
But has that always been in the cards for you?
Have you were you like that little girl dreaming of
Oh I can't wait to be a mom, or it's
it just like.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
It is what it is.
Speaker 3 (36:53):
You know. I guess when I was really young, I
was the girl like at church, like dealing with the
little kids. And then when I got into my twenties,
I was like, I'm done with that.
Speaker 2 (37:07):
I'm not into children.
Speaker 3 (37:08):
I just don't need to be around them, Like it's
not really a thing for me. Part of that is
because I have so many siblings, some of them who
were much younger than me that I felt like I raised,
and I was like, I don't know if I can
handle this.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
It's too much for me. So we didn't.
Speaker 3 (37:25):
You know, even though my husband and I've been together
now for a long time, we didn't really like rush
to have children. And one day we were like, you know,
not trying not to try whatever it is, and then
I was pregnant and I was freaking out.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
Okay, I was losing.
Speaker 3 (37:46):
I didn't even you have people like tell their partners
in a cute way that they're we were just sitting
down and we just moved, and we just bought a house,
and we just moved. We sat down in our empty
house and I was like, I think I'm pregnant.
Speaker 2 (38:02):
I was like what. He was like, why would you
just say it like that?
Speaker 3 (38:08):
No, beatric nothing, because I was too scared.
Speaker 2 (38:12):
Yeah, be cute about it. It was not cute. And so.
Speaker 3 (38:19):
Then I had to be confronted with what being a
mother meant and all my fears about it, and that
I had a lot of fears. Yeah, and I still do. Yeah,
my daughter's three, and every day I'm I mean, I'm
constantly obviously we're always trying to be better parents, but
I'm constantly trying to just be educated because I feel.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
Like I don't know enough to know how to not
screw it up. And so I had to really come
to terms with that and I did not.
Speaker 3 (38:54):
I did right before I got pregnant. I was like,
I could do this or I could not do it. It
didn't really feel like something I had to do. But
I'll tell you what I mean, since the moment that
she was born. Yeah, the way that that changed so
dramatically was stunning to me.
Speaker 2 (39:15):
And I don't think we'd talk enough about that. Yeah,
it was a moment.
Speaker 3 (39:19):
Yeah, like when all my girlfriends have babies, they have
the same moment.
Speaker 2 (39:25):
I am not.
Speaker 3 (39:25):
Suggesting that it's easy, or that it's always beautiful or
anything like that, but just the way that a child
completely changes your perspective on your whole life and on
children is nothing. We don't talk enough about that, and
about how the challenges are more than offset by the
(39:46):
incredible gift that children are. And I wish I had
known that going into it.
Speaker 2 (39:55):
I honestly I would have done it earlier. Really it sooner.
Speaker 3 (40:00):
I mean maybe the biggest regret that I have is
that I felt like I couldn't do it sooner.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
Yeah, I didn't want to.
Speaker 3 (40:08):
I just felt like there were too many sacrifices involved.
Speaker 2 (40:13):
I think it was I was.
Speaker 3 (40:15):
I think I was wrong about that, And I think
it's sad to me because I think that our society
makes women feel like we have to.
Speaker 2 (40:26):
Make evolutely choice absolutely.
Speaker 3 (40:29):
And that it's an either or and that you are
going to sacrifice if you decide to have a family.
And I have a lot of respect for women who
do not want to have kids.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
This is not about that.
Speaker 3 (40:40):
It's more about the women who do want to have kids,
who feel like they have no choice but to push
it off. And I wish I didn't have to do
that because I would have done it earlier. And I
think if I had done it earlier, the thing that
it gives you is this like.
Speaker 2 (40:57):
Approach to your life that is like you are just so.
Speaker 3 (41:03):
Yes, no, like this is not worth it, this is
worth it. It's so clarifying, you know, And there's so
much power in that.
Speaker 2 (41:12):
If I had had that. It is your superpower. That's
what I feel like.
Speaker 1 (41:16):
I feel like you automatically gain this crazy superpower when
you have a kids like perspective.
Speaker 3 (41:24):
It's also just the ability to do a lot and
to just know that you can do it. I mean,
I don't celebrate the fact that we as women do
too much, but I think parents in general are always juggling.
And what I learned about myself was that I could
do way more than I thought I could do, and
(41:48):
that's made me feel like nothing is out of reach and.
Speaker 2 (41:54):
You know, and having you know, look, when you have.
Speaker 3 (41:58):
Kids, you you really do. It's like looking at yourself
in a mirror in a younger form, and it teaches
you so much about yourself.
Speaker 2 (42:11):
Oh yes, and you know, parenting is actually not about
your child. It's about you.
Speaker 3 (42:17):
Yes, It's about how you control yourself. You relate to
this other human being. He's only been on the planet
for a fraction of the time that you have and
are doing their very best and you're the one struggling.
Speaker 2 (42:36):
There's so much about that that I wouldn't trade for
the world. It's absolutely beautiful.
Speaker 1 (42:42):
And here's the thing, because I feel like society tells
us as women, you can't have both. You can't have
career and a family. But also if you don't have
a family, you have to do it by this age
because if you start having keys now it's that is
just not the case.
Speaker 2 (43:01):
That's the thing.
Speaker 3 (43:02):
I think we have squeezed ourselves into this like thirty
to thirty five window.
Speaker 2 (43:08):
Okay, like I'm outside of the window now, I've been
outside the window, right, So it's like, and the psychological
toll that that takes on us absolutely, you know, even.
Speaker 3 (43:19):
When I was I had my daughter when I was
thirty two, and even at that time, I was like, oh,
do I need to freeze my eggs? I'm running out
of time? And again it's like we've gone to the extremes, right.
I get used to be that, Okay, you had no
choice but to have babies.
Speaker 2 (43:40):
When you're like twenty one. Yeah. To now we're.
Speaker 3 (43:43):
Pushing people all the way into their thirties and then
saying to them, okay, clock is ticking, yeah, and giving
them all this pressure and the expense. Then at that point,
if you have to then do IVF and all these
other things. I think that we are. We started at
one extreme and now we're at the other extreme, and
(44:03):
then they call it geriatric, right and then right trying.
Speaker 2 (44:06):
To make you feel like yes, and I would.
Speaker 3 (44:11):
What I want for women in the future, for my
daughter is that when she, first of all, she believes
that she can be ready to have a child earlier.
The fact that I didn't think I was ready, let's say,
at twenty six, is not because I wasn't ready, but
(44:34):
because I felt like the child rearing is so hard
in this country and in this world, that I needed
way more than I had. And that's not a good thing.
It's a reflection of how we as a society do
not support women and families that you feel like you
(44:57):
have to wait so long until.
Speaker 2 (44:59):
Every all your ducks are in a road. I have
a child.
Speaker 3 (45:02):
I want for my child that if she decides that
she's ready at twenty five, that she has the support
that she can do it at that age, or if
she wants.
Speaker 2 (45:13):
To do it later, she can do it later. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (45:15):
But I fear that we've gotten to a point where
it's like most twenty five year olds are like, ain't
no way.
Speaker 2 (45:21):
Yeah, I have to work, I have to get it
had in my career.
Speaker 3 (45:25):
I have to make all this money I have to Yeah,
we've made it impossible.
Speaker 2 (45:29):
Yeah, but I feel I do.
Speaker 1 (45:31):
I feel like, as you said, we swung so far
one way, and then we swung so far the other way.
I feel like by the time your daughter is coming up,
the pendulum will be back towards a more consistent medium
where it's like you'll have these choices, the girl we're
gonna hold ambreik.
Speaker 3 (45:51):
I mean, there's so much that is like, obviously the
world is not perfect, but I think that there's so
much for women that could be better, and just because
I and so many of my other friends who have
experienced motherhood, the overwhelming feeling is that it was a
(46:16):
positive change for their lives that they wouldn't mind or
maybe would have wanted to do earlier.
Speaker 2 (46:28):
And we got to be honest.
Speaker 3 (46:31):
About that and just say like, hey, like, something's not
right here where people.
Speaker 2 (46:36):
Feel like they have to wait.
Speaker 3 (46:40):
Not it's fine if they want to wait, yeah, but
when you feel like you have to do something, then
I think something.
Speaker 1 (46:46):
That's where we have to find and sort of shift
and figure out how do we change this, how do
we make it better?
Speaker 2 (46:54):
Because also, you know, work is work.
Speaker 3 (46:59):
And it's going to be it's going to be there
and you know, and it's also not going to be
there when you're eighty. Yeah, guess who will be And
I let's not forget that. I think it's so important
that I've always known that. Yeah, like work is work.
Speaker 2 (47:16):
It's great.
Speaker 3 (47:16):
Professional accomplishments are wonderful. You know, I want to be stable.
I want to have resources so that I don't have
to worry and struggle. But you have to keep your
priorities straight because at the end of the day, your boss,
your job, that company, you're so attached to, it's not
going to be there. And if you don't build a
(47:37):
life for yourself, whatever that life looks like, you know,
your chosen family, a family you create for yourself, whatever
that life is. If you don't lock that down, then
you're going to be looking back and wondering, Oh, who's
here for me.
Speaker 2 (47:51):
You gotta choose joy. You just gotta choose joy. You
gotta choose it and whatever that joy is for you
and create it and create its what you gotta do. Okay,
So three promptsky, I do this with all my guests.
Speaker 1 (48:09):
You can choose one, and you can have me choose one.
The time that you chose joy in your career, or
the time that you chose joy in your personal life,
or the time where you could not find joy anywhere.
Speaker 3 (48:29):
So choose one of those three.
Speaker 2 (48:34):
I will choose the time that I chose joy in
my personal life. Okay.
Speaker 3 (48:46):
When I uh, when I was in my early twenties,
I was I was like dating around, and I was
like dating all these different people.
Speaker 2 (48:59):
And and the one.
Speaker 3 (49:02):
Day that I walked into a party and I said
to myself, I'm just gonna try to have a conversation
that I enjoy with someone. I was like, there's no
objective here. I just want to know that I can
have a conversation that I enjoy and come away from
(49:24):
it feeling like I liked that conversation.
Speaker 2 (49:28):
Yeah, you know, that was that was interesting. That was good.
Speaker 3 (49:31):
And I went to this party and I had a
conversation with this man who whose name? After I left
the party, I did not remember. I didn't have his
contact information, I didn't have anything in common with him,
any friends in common, nothing.
Speaker 2 (49:48):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (49:48):
But I just it was the one conversation I had
at that party that I was like, that was really interesting. Wow,
And that was really enjoyable. And you know, thirteen years
later that man.
Speaker 2 (50:05):
That girl I love that way. So you left the
party and didn't have content.
Speaker 3 (50:11):
Literally, I'm telling you, I did not, And I'm bad
at names, so that's not funny.
Speaker 2 (50:17):
I did not. I did not remember it. Wow.
Speaker 3 (50:20):
And he gives me a lot of crap about that now,
But I did not remember his name. I lovet the party.
We didn't I mean, we had nothing, really, we just
two different worlds kind of came together. We just happened
to be in the same place that day. And then
the only reason that we were able to end up
dating was that about a month later, the same kind
(50:42):
of group of people through another party and we both just.
Speaker 2 (50:44):
Happened to go.
Speaker 3 (50:46):
And because we saw each other again, given that there's
really no reason in the world that we would ever
run into each other again, that's when we started dating.
But I always look back at that moment because a
lot of time times, you know, I think even before then,
I would go into kind of interactions being like who
(51:07):
is this person and.
Speaker 2 (51:08):
What do they do? And you know this? And are
they that? Or where did they go to school?
Speaker 3 (51:12):
And that one time, I was just like, I want
to just enjoy a conversation. And honestly, the first year
of our dating relationship, my philosophy was I'm gonna just
do this until I don't like it.
Speaker 2 (51:26):
Anymore, and here you are.
Speaker 3 (51:29):
Am.
Speaker 2 (51:31):
I was like, I was like, the minute, but I
don't like this anymore, It's done. I'm out of here.
I'm out of here, and I I was. I was
very transparent. I told him that.
Speaker 3 (51:42):
I was like, I was like, listen, I'm just going
to tell you right now that one thing you should
know about me is that as soon as I am
not enjoying this.
Speaker 2 (51:50):
Anymore, I'm gonna be dumb. And he was like, Okay,
cool baby, I am cracking up.
Speaker 1 (52:00):
To that night, cheers to that night, and you're just
smiling so strong all these years later.
Speaker 2 (52:08):
So that means he's doing something right. Wow, and he's
choosing joy. Yeah. I mean, listen, we.
Speaker 3 (52:12):
Choose relationships, no matter what kind they are, are about
choosing joy. Absolutely are about remembering the things that bring
you joy.
Speaker 2 (52:22):
Yes, in that other person. Yes, And that's that's that
lesson too. But I love it. Listen, ladies, if it's
not bringing you joy, let it go.
Speaker 1 (52:34):
Let it go and trust that the thing that you
really want is going to be there. Abby, you are
absolutely fabulous. Like I knew this and like you were
my friend in my head, but I love that I
get to actually see it in real life, face to face.
You are beautiful. You are fabulous. You there's a strength
(52:57):
and a courage that sort of like what's the word
that I'll want it just it's like your aura. It's
it's surround you and it's really really lovely to see
you walk in that. Just as another brown skinned girl,
it just delights me to see you in your space
in this space, but in the space that you occupy
(53:18):
with CNN, with all these people, and just standing strong
and holding your ground and doing it with poise and grace.
That is not an easy thing to do. So know
that I have your back and know that I'm cheering
for you and praying for you. But also I just
I think that you are lovely and I just keep going.
Speaker 3 (53:36):
And so it's been such a joy speaking to you
and just sharing with you. I mean, our journeys are
about finding our strength, ry and fundamentally, and when you
find that you can access joy, I really think so.
Speaker 2 (53:54):
Yes, And that's how it's been for me. I agree.
Speaker 3 (53:57):
I've had to kind of get to place where I'm
I know who I am at this point, Yes, And
because of that, I can let go of all the
other stuff and focus on the things that that bring
me joy.
Speaker 2 (54:12):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (54:13):
That's what it is, focusing on the things that bring
us joy. That is what we're doing. We are focusing
on the things that bring us joy. Abby, Philip, You're
the best. Thank you so much for coming and choosing
joy with me. Adim Jeers, what's up, everybody, It's stubborn
joy Winings. Williams back from choosing joy and today we
(54:37):
get to talk with.
Speaker 2 (54:38):
The one and only Abby Philip. Today I learned so much.
Speaker 1 (54:42):
I just learned about recognizing where a struggle is.
Speaker 2 (54:49):
How you persevere, how you.
Speaker 1 (54:51):
Move through things, and you do it with grace and
you're a head held high. I think that Abby is
so a profound voice in our day and time, and
to be able to recognize someone with so much beauty
and grace and courage and to know how they've had
(55:12):
to continue to survive and continue to become and continue
to rediscuss
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Speaker 3 (00:44):
And I should say, honestly, we have some mutual friends, yes,
in common, but you're one.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Of those people.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
I see you on social media and I'm like, we
really should be friends, we should hate.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
So you've been my friend in my mind exactly.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
That is honestly how I I'm.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
Very excited because I get to talk to someone who
I have crazy respect for. She doesn't know this because
this is my first time meeting her, but she is
someone that I consider Like when she's talking, you stop
and you listen.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
And when I tell you.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Homegirls clap back game is on one hundred. I have
mad respect. The country is so lucky to have her
as a political correspondent and anchor of her own show,
Newsnight with Abby Philip. Okay, so there's that, and she's
here on the couch with me. So I'm very lucky
(01:47):
to have miss Abby Philip here.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Thank you for choosing joy today to be here. I'm
so happy you're here.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
So I want to talk to you just about your
journey in this world of politics, like where you grew up.
You are in the capital, the mecca where everything goes down.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
What made you get into it?
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Actually, I really want to know, because you grew up
in the DMV but also in Trinidad.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Yeah, what was that? Like?
Speaker 3 (02:21):
It's it's such a obviously it's a long story, right,
and your life has all these chapters and all these
different parts of your journey, but it is probably right
to start there because you know, my parents are immigrants.
They came to this country with very little knowing basically
(02:41):
no one. And I was born here in the United
States and Virginia when my dad was in school finishing
his degree at Howard and shortly after that my parents
moved back to Trinidad. So I lived there from the
time I was about maybe four months old until.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
I was nine.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
So the early part of my childhood, I was a
little Trinny girl with an accent, running around, you know,
care free, knowing that we had this connection to the
United States because both me and my older sister were
both born here. There were three of us at the time,
and eventually my parents came back to the US and
(03:22):
then we came up a few months later, and that
was the rest of my life. And in so many ways,
my whole life is just about these two existences that
I've always had, being a child of immigrants but also
being essentially American. We didn't go back to Trinidad very
(03:43):
often when I was a kid because we didn't have
a lot of money, and so I didn't go back
to Trinidad until I was an adult.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Until I was.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
Twenty something and I was out in the working world.
So I kind of felt like that was sort of
almost like a forgotten part of my life. There were
parts of my childhood that I completely erased from my memory.
My accent was gone. I had this experience of just
(04:14):
trying so hard to fit in that my brain just
sort of as a coping mechanism. There were just a
lot of things about my childhood that I didn't remember,
and I've always kind of regretted that, obviously, because I
want to remember those things. And I think I've been
kind of on this journey of trying to remember that
part of my culture in different ways, but living that
(04:36):
duality of life as a child, as an adolescent, as
an adult, and as a journalist. It helps me understand
other people, right, because my whole existence has been coming
to what place and making it work with people who
are different from me, and that helps me tremendously work
(05:00):
that I do, and I really do think it's the
reason why when people are like, how can you deal
with these people who have these views? I approach every
person as they have a different experience for me, let
me try to understand where they're coming from.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
And it's hard, and maybe, you.
Speaker 3 (05:19):
Know, maybe there are times when I vehemently disagree with
what they're saying. But I fundamentally believe in our ability
to hear each other out. And I think it comes
from the fact that I had to acclimate at a
very young ageah, something totally and completely different from.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
What I was used to that's major, and that's not
something that I think the typical American understands acclimating trying
to figure it out.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
I think we do as people of color. I think
we're always like.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
Yeah, we're just yeah, we're used to being in spaces
where there are not people.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
Like yes, for sure, where it feels like we don't belong.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
Is there any part of that when you think about Trinidad?
Is there any part where, even if you can't distinctly
remember what it was, do you remember the feeling of joy?
Speaker 2 (06:11):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (06:12):
Yeah, I mean one of the things about my childhood
was that my family they I grew up in Trinidad
in a very small town, almost like a village, okay,
and everybody in my family basically lived there. And my
grandmother's house, a little tiny house that my grandfather built
with his own hands, was set on a block and
(06:35):
surrounded by other family members.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (06:38):
And so growing up as a kid, my cousins were
always around, My aunts and uncles were always around, and.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
I missed that.
Speaker 3 (06:46):
Yeah, it's in the way our modern life doesn't even
allow for that in the same way, But growing up,
that's what it was like, like we were always I
was always at my aunts and uncle's house, playing with
my cousins. They were always at at our house. We
lived with my grandmother for a long time. And that
(07:06):
idea of family just being a part of your life,
not people visiting, but just they're part of your life.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
And that part is so clear to me.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
And you don't necessarily remember every moment, but you remember
how it made you feel. And I still I feel
like I still chase that feeling even today. We recently
we used to live in d C, Washington, d C.
We just moved to New York. My parents still live
(07:37):
in Maryland, my siblings still live there. So we actually
just moved away from my family for the first time.
And it was tough. It was tough, and it's harder now.
You have to really create those moments.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
Because also your mom.
Speaker 3 (07:52):
Yeah yeah, and my daughter is so close to my
parents and her aunts and uncles, and I'm grateful for
the time that she had while we were all in
the same place. But you know, like I said, you
create the feeling, right, It just it's on.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
You now to do it. Yeah, yeah, and you just
have to be intentional.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
Yeah, So before we get to mom stuff, because I
really I it changed my life. Yeah, yeah, like it
rocked my world. So I'm very interested in what that
was like for you. But I want to what was
the moment where you knew or felt like journalism was
(08:31):
where you were headed.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
When I was in college, I was very adrift, Okay,
I really I didn't know like how A doing.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
I mean, I wasn't like.
Speaker 3 (08:45):
Failing out necessarily, but I wasn't doing exceptionally well, which
is what I had been used to. I mean, I
was a top student in my high school. I went
to a public high school, and then I got into
Harvard and that was like a life changing thing. Yeah,
but it was so different from everything that I'd ever
experienced before.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
I really struggled.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
And I was freshman year, sophomore year in a bit
of a dark place, not really feeling very I was
feeling very isolated because Harvard's a place where there are
a lot of kids who are extremely smart, very elite.
Actually a lot of the black kids are very elite,
(09:28):
which is completely different from the sort of working class,
middle class lifestyle that I had. And I didn't know
what I wanted to do, and it felt like everybody
else around me did. And I thought I wanted to
be a doctor. Then I realized I couldn't.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
Hang I just.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
I just it wasn't it was not right for me
because the things that I had to do in order
to do it, I couldn't get through those things without
feeling like I was spiraling down.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
So I made a.
Speaker 3 (09:56):
Complete radical shift and I started focusing on the just
trying different things and focusing on the things that made
me feel like good okay. And I started writing for
the college paper and I enjoyed that. And then the
thing that really changed it for me was when I
(10:17):
went on this spring break trip that was a very
unconventional spring break trip, but it was to the South.
It was to Mississippi, that is, and it was we
were like retracing the steps of the Civil Rights movement.
And I was blogging my experience of being on that
trip and kind of just seeing, you know, where Cheney,
(10:38):
Schorener and Goodman were killed, where Emmitt Till was killed,
like all of these things that you read about being
in that place that was life changing for me. And
having to describe that and writing about it and evoking
the history that changed everything for me. And it made
(10:59):
me realize, first of all, I wanted to be a
part of something that I felt like had an impact
on the world. And I really felt like in all
of those stories, the storytellers who brought those stories to
the rest of the world helped change the trajectory of
this country, absolutely right. So I felt like that was
(11:21):
a thing I wanted to be a part of. And
then the other thing was we were meeting people who
were just regular people who lived in Mississippi and seeing
their experiences and thinking, to myself, nobody knows about what
it's like here to be a young black child in
(11:42):
Sunflower County, Mississippi. It's a forgotten place, and journalism is
about really fundamentally going to those places and bringing those
stories to the world. And it was just a concept.
It was a philosophy, a mission that I just felt
(12:02):
like I could get behind that I can see myself
doing that, and my life has taken me in all
kinds of different directions. There are all these things that
I thought I wanted to do in journalism that I
just haven't done. They're not regrets, but it's just sort
of like the beauty of life is that it takes
you in a different journey. But that's the motivation. I
mean that's where I started at. Yeah, that's where my
(12:25):
heart is when it comes to this business. And it's
honestly still what keeps me going.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
Yeah, Well, I was reading where you said at one
point that the truth can be a moving target. How
in this political climate today, how do you continue to
find that truth in the midst of this chaos and
(12:55):
still do it with a piece of sanity, of joy,
of happiness like that motivation.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
I mean joy. Let me tell you, it is hard, Yakay.
Speaker 3 (13:08):
This environment is the most difficult environment that I've ever
worked in.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Yeah, and.
Speaker 3 (13:14):
I've been doing this fourteen years since I graduated from college. Yeah,
and it's never been this hard, and it's never been
this thankless. And it's not a woe is Me kind
of thing because I've got a great job and a
great life. But it's getting harder to get to that truth.
(13:36):
I still believe in truth, Okay. I think there are
real things in the world, things that are real and
things that are not real, things that are true, and things.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
That are false.
Speaker 3 (13:45):
But the way in which we all live in these
information silos and everybody gets to decide which truth they
want to believe that is not getting any better.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
It might be getting worse.
Speaker 3 (13:57):
Yeah, and I wish I could say that we are
breaking through and making a dent.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
Sometimes I don't think. I don't know that we're making
a dent. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
Yeah, it's very difficult to figure out if what you're
doing is actually I think it's still worth doing.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
Yeah, but.
Speaker 3 (14:15):
There are a lot of days, especially these days, where
I think people are retreating into their corners and they
don't want to hear people who tell them anything that's
different from what they already believe. I think we have
a responsibility to continue to do what we do, what
(14:35):
we try to do.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
I don't want people to think like I don't. I
always come to.
Speaker 3 (14:39):
This with a lot of humility. Right, We are not perfect.
I'm a human being. I make mistakes. But the reason
that I think journalism works is because there's a process
for admitting your mistakes, you correct things. The integrity of
being able to say I was wrong about this. We
thought this was true and it turns out there's more
(15:00):
information now this is true. I still believe in that.
I still think we have to do it. I still
think there are people out there who really they're making
a whole lot of money and getting a ton of
followers by literally lying to people every single day. Yeah,
and if somebody doesn't stand up for the idea that
(15:21):
there is truth out there, I don't know who will.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
Yeah, it'll just continue to be a place that no
longer feels like it's worth the living.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
And we are here to be that light.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
We are here to continue to tell the stories, to
continue the truth, to continue disrupting bad behavior even when
it feels like it's not helping, where it feels like
nobody sees it. In those moments, for me, I always think, well, God.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
Knows, God sees, and I'm doing what.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
I'm supposed to do even when it feels like nobody
gets it, even when it feels like it's not moving
the needle at all.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
And that is a way for.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
Me to be able to smile and find joy in
the middle of the chaos.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
So when you have these moments of like, is this
even doing anything? Yealling crazy? How do you find a smile?
Speaker 3 (16:26):
Yeah? I mean you know, like you said, God knows, right,
So not every time. My principle about this is that
I don't have to win. I don't have to be
seen as winning every battle. Yeah, sometimes people are coming
at me and I was thinking the other day, I
was like, you know, my superpower is just not taking
(16:49):
the ban I just I don't because there's a lot
of power in not engaging with people and not engaging
with negativity, because people want you to come back at
them so that they can feel power from your reaction.
And most of the time, I just say I'm letting
(17:13):
this go. I might respond once, I might respond twice,
but we're not going to keep going.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
Back back and forth. OK.
Speaker 3 (17:20):
And I think that there's something to be said for
letting certain things go because you don't need to the
world doesn't need to see you as the victor in
every battle because it's not really about that. There are
other things that are more important. And so I let
(17:41):
some of that stuff go. And I know that in
every moment, I try my best, and I come back
the next day and I try again, and I come
back the next day and I try again. And in
between those moments, I recharge myself, right because I'm an introvert.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
I have to. This battery gets deployed. What that recharge
look like? I mean, I.
Speaker 3 (18:08):
Pretty aggressively these days. Compartmentalize my life, right, like you know,
work can feel you know, constant and all encompassing, But
there are things in my personal life, my daughter, my family.
I try to bake, I try to you know, there
are things that I try to do to keep space
(18:31):
for things that are mine. And this is something I
had to learn about myself in college. You know, I
was so used to just going, going, going going, that
I never really knew what made me happy. What are
the things that I actually enjoy doing, and how do
I carve out time to actually do those things?
Speaker 2 (18:52):
And so it's not a long list.
Speaker 3 (18:56):
It's pretty so short list. I don't have it that
much time. But you know, my family is incredibly important
to me. I carve out time for my daughter. It's
the number one already that I have. It's my responsibility,
but it also brings me joy.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
But I also I like being in my house. I
like being in my home.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
I will go to the corner and I will buy
flowers and I will put them all over my house
and make arrangements, just small things that I look around
and I find peace in my space. I find peace
and taking care of the people that I love.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
I love baking.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
I like nourishing myself with things that make my body
feel good. I like having a glass of wine from
time to time. So those things that you do, I
just have that list, and I just when I feel
like I need to recharge, I just go back to
that list and take them off, because it's the only way.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
It really is.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
I think that self care is the best care, because
when you're trying to pour from an empty cup to
give absolutely nothing. Was it in college where you realized
you didn't know exactly what made you happy? Or was
it just as an adult adult when you are on
(20:16):
your own, paying your own bills and you realize, you know,
I don't actually know what I like.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
It's a journey.
Speaker 3 (20:23):
Yeah, I mean I think that in college I realized
that I didn't know what made me happy for sure,
and that if I wasn't intentional about understanding the things that,
you know, turn the dial toward happiness versus terming the
dial toward depression, I.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
Would more easily be in that other. Yeah. So I
it was that realization.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
I think it's been, you know, maybe like a fifteen
twenty year journey of at different junctures figuring out what
are those things that do make me happy? And also
bringing myself back. I mean, look, the reality is that
we all have moments in our lives when we're not
We're not our cup is not full. Yeah, and of
(21:12):
course every time that happens, I've had to recalibrate.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
Okay, So is it really this person that's making you unhappy?
Speaker 3 (21:21):
Or are you not taking responsibility for your own happiness?
And is it really that, like this job is not
right or are you not focusing on the things that
you actually do want to do or are you focusing
on the things.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
That you don't want to do? And I've been on
that journey my whole adult life.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
Yeah, So have you noticed that things shift as you
get older? The things that we're making you happy at
twenty five are not necessarily the things that are making
happy at thirty or thirty, you know what I mean?
Speaker 3 (21:54):
I mean absolutely, yeah, I just you know, it's just
acknowledging things about myself and the way that I feel
like I am different from other people. I'm a outgoing
but a very introverted person. So I like my me time,
I like being in my home. I was never the
(22:16):
twenty year old. Twenty something year old we wanted to
be out in the streets all the time, and it
always honestly, it made me feel like there was something
wrong with me and that like I just was like
not a likable person. And you know, I just realized
it's just not for me.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Yeah, and that's okay, and.
Speaker 3 (22:39):
That's okay, Like some things are just not for you. Yes,
And in my thirties, I mean honestly, as I've gotten older,
my life has gotten better and better and I've gotten
more comfortable in my skin. And I am like the
world's greatest No, like you cancel plans with me, I'm thrilled.
(23:03):
I love being in my house. Yes, okay, I love
having dinner parties in my home. I love a small
group of friends. I do not need to be best
friends with everybody, and realizing that about myself has been
so liberating. It's been so liberating just there are certain
(23:25):
things I don't need, even if there are things that
other people have and seem like the norm. And now
I'm thirty six, I feel like I know that I
know myself better than I've ever known myself before. There's
still so many things about my life where it's like
(23:48):
you're always asking yourself, how do I get closer to
my purpose? Yes, Yes, I don't even think I'm there
yet now right, I still think that I'm on that
path too.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
That's what is really my purpose? Yes?
Speaker 3 (24:05):
And what am I doing something every day that gets
me closer to Yeah? Is the thing I think about constantly. Yeah,
I think that has to be the goal.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
I think that we live in this world world where
people feel like, oh I'm not there yet, dang it,
I've messed up, or I've missed out, or I'm no.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
This is all the journey. It's it's it's you constantly
like ore, forever float.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
It says you are constantly becoming, continue becoming everything that
you are meant to be.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
It's not supposed to be overnight, it's not supposed to
be in five It's it's you are.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
You are coming into contact with the people you are
meant to meet, You are meant to be a light to,
you are meant to share space with. You are continuously
becoming everything and getting closer and closer.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
To that goal.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
But the destination is not the journey, Like, don't discount
the journey because you're only looking at where you gotta
get to.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Yeah, I mean you'll miss out on the beauty when't we.
Speaker 3 (25:11):
Think of like when I think back on my twenties,
I could never have imagined the life that.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
I'm living right now.
Speaker 3 (25:18):
Never mm, honestly, M And it wasn't even in my mind.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (25:24):
And I that journey has been so unpredictable.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
And there were so many moments in that in that
journey where my m mind was telling me you're.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
Not good enough.
Speaker 3 (25:38):
Mm, just stop right now and go do something else,
because this is not for you to wow. And I
felt that was that was I I was telling myself that.
I felt like I was getting that message from people
around me.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
And I'm glad that.
Speaker 3 (25:53):
I didn't listen to it, Yeah, because I really I would.
I wouldn't be sitting here if I had.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
And what was the thing that made you push through that?
Speaker 3 (26:06):
It's a sense of honestly, it's a sense of obligation.
I mean, we started talking about my immigrant family, and
I have a big family. I have five brothers and sisters,
and I've always been kind of like the caretaker of
the family.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
And so.
Speaker 3 (26:26):
It has not always come from a place. That's always
a good thing, right when you feel like you have
to kind of carry the burden yourself. But I have
always felt that way for most of my adult life,
and it's been a motivator. I don't give up because
I can't. I literally cannot. It's not an option. Too
(26:49):
many people count on me.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
I just can't. And sometimes that's been a hard life
to carry. It's a lot.
Speaker 3 (27:02):
There were times in my life where I was like,
I wish I could be unburdened and do whatever I
want and move wherever I want, and just you know,
there have been times where I've been like, oh, I
just want to quit my job and go do something
completely different, and a lot of times I just haven't
done it because I felt like that was just not
(27:22):
an option. For keeping going has always been the only
thing I felt like I could do, starting from when
I got that acceptance letter to get into Harvard, from
that moment on until where I sit here now. Most
(27:46):
of the time when I have kept going, it is
because I felt genuinely like I had no choice, and
that turned out for.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
Me to be.
Speaker 3 (27:58):
Just maybe what I needed to do what I think
is the right thing to do, which is that perseverance
through the tough moments is the difference between success and failure.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
Absolutely, and I didn't.
Speaker 3 (28:10):
Really know that for a long time, and now I
tell people that all the time, and it's not just
like a cliche.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
It's literally like the people.
Speaker 3 (28:22):
The guys, many of them men who are running around
here being super successful despite failing all the time, can
do that because they just don't take failure as an answer.
And me, my brain was like, you suck, you failed,
please stop. And it's only that obligation to the people
(28:45):
that around me that I think forced me to not
listen to that, and I'm grateful for it. It's kind
of like the challenge that God gives you to to
force you into your.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
Yes, whether you know it or not.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
He's constantly guiding you, giving you these moments, these reminders,
these hey no, no, no, this is where you're meant
to be.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
So I have two more questions one. So for me, I.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
Didn't really recognize how much of a choice joy was
until like my early to mid thirties, because I felt
I'm a family girl, and I have always tried to
live up to what my family standards were for me
and not just what I felt like God had for
(29:42):
me and my dreams and my passions.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
It was like, oh, but I gotta do it like
this because then they'll be pleased and.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
I had to let that go and figure out what
was best for me, what made me happy, What did
I feel like God have for me to do, and
choose that even when it's difficult, even when I know.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
It's gonna bring me joy.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
But they may not like it, or they may not
support it, or they think it's crazy, but it brought
me joy. But I realized it's a choice. I can
either choose to try and live and make somebody else happy.
I can choose and try to live the life that
I feel like God has given me and that makes
me happy. Was there a point in your life where
(30:24):
you fully recognize, oh, this is this joy is a choice.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
Yeah, I can choose.
Speaker 3 (30:29):
This or not.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean.
Speaker 3 (30:33):
When I was in college and I was trying to
come out of a kind of low period of my life.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
At that point, I used to.
Speaker 3 (30:46):
Write notes to myself on post it notes and put
them up on the mirrors in the bathroom and in
my room, just places that I would be looking.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
Roommates were like, what are you doing? I didn't even know.
Speaker 3 (31:03):
I mean at the time, I didn't know what affirmations were.
It wasn't like a concept that I knew about. I
just knew that I had to constantly remind myself of
the positive side of the moment that I was in,
of the things that I loved, the things that brought
(31:24):
me joy, the things that brought me peace. And it
kind of started there and it's taken all kinds of
different forms where honestly, that's how I am is like
I'm going to do what I want to do. And
I mean, you can ask my husband about this, because
he's like, he's like, one thing I know about you
(31:45):
is that you're just going to do what you want
to do.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
And that's I've earned that.
Speaker 3 (31:50):
Yeah, Okay, That's how I feel about it, is that
I have earned the ability to do that. That like,
when I want I want to go try something new,
I don't wait for other people. I don't wait for
other people's approval. If it's right for me, I will
I will do it. And I try to like just
(32:12):
remind myself to think about that, because it's easy for
me to just sort of do what other people want
to be accommodating. But I just literally remind myself that's
not what you want to do, since I'll do it, Yeah,
and I don't do it.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
And I don't.
Speaker 3 (32:28):
It's just a part of me now that I've gotten
over the idea that it makes me feel. It makes
me seem unyielding, it makes me seem self centered or
whatever it is. But it's also about not waiting for
other people to get joy out of your own life.
Speaker 2 (32:49):
You're the old person responsible for me, yes.
Speaker 3 (32:53):
And it's not friends, it's not boyfriends, it's not your husband,
it's nobody but you.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
It's you.
Speaker 3 (32:59):
And I count myself lucky in a way because that
some of that comes naturally to me, you know, the
kind of the things that make me feel joy, sitting
in a beautiful coffee shop and having a latte and
reading a book. Yeah, And I don't need to wait
for anybody in order to do that. I'll just go
do it. A couple of years ago, I hadn't traveled
(33:20):
alone in a long time. You know, my husband and
I've been together for twelve thirteen years, so I don't
we're not like alone. I'm not alone back often. But
a couple of years ago, I had to work on
something and I went on a trip to Mexico by myself,
and it was like just this incredible experience of like
(33:41):
rediscovering myself.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
I rented a vespa and I like was whispering around
by myself and I was like, oh, my am.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
I I was like, oh, I guess I am doing this,
you know.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
And I was like, you know what, this is who
I am? Like, this is actually who I am.
Speaker 3 (34:02):
I don't I don't need to try, like you need
other people to do the things that make me happy.
And sometimes you also need to do that to check
in with yourself and be by yourself and live with
yourself and remind yourself, Okay, I'm alone. Now, there's nobody
(34:22):
else around me to influence how I feel about things,
what feels good in.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
That moment, and that can be really powerful, really powerful.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
Just rediscovering and continuously discovering who you are and how
you've changed, what makes you happy, and what you like
and what you.
Speaker 2 (34:41):
Now don't like. That's beautiful. Yeah, I mean, it's not
the end. There's no every it's it's always.
Speaker 3 (34:48):
It's all these chapters in your life, right and at
different phases in your life, you find things out about
yourself and you know, I'm I'm okay with that journey too,
you know, of just self discovery and getting closer to
your to your own, your own understanding of your athens.
(35:12):
Ye see, I think people don't realize how much they
don't know about themselves. And maybe you know, they spend
a lot of time in therapy or whatever and that helps,
which I think it does help, But most of us
don't know ourselves well enough to realize how we are
kind of living in response to other people so often.
(35:34):
And I'm still on that journey. Most people I know
are still on that journey. But at least I know, yeah,
that that's what's happening.
Speaker 2 (35:46):
No, and it's and it's it's active.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
It's not you're not living passively waiting for things to
happen to you. You are proactively living your life and
that includes making choices and setting boundaries that maybe other
people may not like, but it's what you need. It's
good for you, and it's good for your family. I
do want to ask I have one more before my
(36:10):
last prompt, which is about motherhood.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
So for me, I was always.
Speaker 1 (36:18):
Like, when I get married, if we really really love
each other, then you know, maybe we'll have a baby.
And we did. We had a baby. I popped up
pregnant and I was like, wait, what's going on?
Speaker 2 (36:29):
What happened. It always does seem to happen that I
popped up pregnant. They were like, oh, you weren't trying.
I was like, well, I mean, I guess we weren't.
Not that's trying, but just sort of happened.
Speaker 1 (36:40):
But has that always been in the cards for you?
Have you were you like that little girl dreaming of
Oh I can't wait to be a mom, or it's
it just like.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
It is what it is.
Speaker 3 (36:53):
You know. I guess when I was really young, I
was the girl like at church, like dealing with the
little kids. And then when I got into my twenties,
I was like, I'm done with that.
Speaker 2 (37:07):
I'm not into children.
Speaker 3 (37:08):
I just don't need to be around them, Like it's
not really a thing for me. Part of that is
because I have so many siblings, some of them who
were much younger than me that I felt like I raised,
and I was like, I don't know if I can
handle this.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
It's too much for me. So we didn't.
Speaker 3 (37:25):
You know, even though my husband and I've been together
now for a long time, we didn't really like rush
to have children. And one day we were like, you know,
not trying not to try whatever it is, and then
I was pregnant and I was freaking out.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
Okay, I was losing.
Speaker 3 (37:46):
I didn't even you have people like tell their partners
in a cute way that they're we were just sitting
down and we just moved, and we just bought a house,
and we just moved. We sat down in our empty
house and I was like, I think I'm pregnant.
Speaker 2 (38:02):
I was like what. He was like, why would you
just say it like that?
Speaker 3 (38:08):
No, beatric nothing, because I was too scared.
Speaker 2 (38:12):
Yeah, be cute about it. It was not cute. And so.
Speaker 3 (38:19):
Then I had to be confronted with what being a
mother meant and all my fears about it, and that
I had a lot of fears. Yeah, and I still do. Yeah,
my daughter's three, and every day I'm I mean, I'm
constantly obviously we're always trying to be better parents, but
I'm constantly trying to just be educated because I feel.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
Like I don't know enough to know how to not
screw it up. And so I had to really come
to terms with that and I did not.
Speaker 3 (38:54):
I did right before I got pregnant. I was like,
I could do this or I could not do it. It
didn't really feel like something I had to do. But
I'll tell you what I mean, since the moment that
she was born. Yeah, the way that that changed so
dramatically was stunning to me.
Speaker 2 (39:15):
And I don't think we'd talk enough about that. Yeah,
it was a moment.
Speaker 3 (39:19):
Yeah, like when all my girlfriends have babies, they have
the same moment.
Speaker 2 (39:25):
I am not.
Speaker 3 (39:25):
Suggesting that it's easy, or that it's always beautiful or
anything like that, but just the way that a child
completely changes your perspective on your whole life and on
children is nothing. We don't talk enough about that, and
about how the challenges are more than offset by the
(39:46):
incredible gift that children are. And I wish I had
known that going into it.
Speaker 2 (39:55):
I honestly I would have done it earlier. Really it sooner.
Speaker 3 (40:00):
I mean maybe the biggest regret that I have is
that I felt like I couldn't do it sooner.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
Yeah, I didn't want to.
Speaker 3 (40:08):
I just felt like there were too many sacrifices involved.
Speaker 2 (40:13):
I think it was I was.
Speaker 3 (40:15):
I think I was wrong about that, And I think
it's sad to me because I think that our society
makes women feel like we have to.
Speaker 2 (40:26):
Make evolutely choice absolutely.
Speaker 3 (40:29):
And that it's an either or and that you are
going to sacrifice if you decide to have a family.
And I have a lot of respect for women who
do not want to have kids.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
This is not about that.
Speaker 3 (40:40):
It's more about the women who do want to have kids,
who feel like they have no choice but to push
it off. And I wish I didn't have to do
that because I would have done it earlier. And I
think if I had done it earlier, the thing that
it gives you is this like.
Speaker 2 (40:57):
Approach to your life that is like you are just so.
Speaker 3 (41:03):
Yes, no, like this is not worth it, this is
worth it. It's so clarifying, you know, And there's so
much power in that.
Speaker 2 (41:12):
If I had had that. It is your superpower. That's
what I feel like.
Speaker 1 (41:16):
I feel like you automatically gain this crazy superpower when
you have a kids like perspective.
Speaker 3 (41:24):
It's also just the ability to do a lot and
to just know that you can do it. I mean,
I don't celebrate the fact that we as women do
too much, but I think parents in general are always juggling.
And what I learned about myself was that I could
do way more than I thought I could do, and
(41:48):
that's made me feel like nothing is out of reach and.
Speaker 2 (41:54):
You know, and having you know, look, when you have.
Speaker 3 (41:58):
Kids, you you really do. It's like looking at yourself
in a mirror in a younger form, and it teaches
you so much about yourself.
Speaker 2 (42:11):
Oh yes, and you know, parenting is actually not about
your child. It's about you.
Speaker 3 (42:17):
Yes, It's about how you control yourself. You relate to
this other human being. He's only been on the planet
for a fraction of the time that you have and
are doing their very best and you're the one struggling.
Speaker 2 (42:36):
There's so much about that that I wouldn't trade for
the world. It's absolutely beautiful.
Speaker 1 (42:42):
And here's the thing, because I feel like society tells
us as women, you can't have both. You can't have
career and a family. But also if you don't have
a family, you have to do it by this age
because if you start having keys now it's that is
just not the case.
Speaker 2 (43:01):
That's the thing.
Speaker 3 (43:02):
I think we have squeezed ourselves into this like thirty
to thirty five window.
Speaker 2 (43:08):
Okay, like I'm outside of the window now, I've been
outside the window, right, So it's like, and the psychological
toll that that takes on us absolutely, you know, even.
Speaker 3 (43:19):
When I was I had my daughter when I was
thirty two, and even at that time, I was like, oh,
do I need to freeze my eggs? I'm running out
of time? And again it's like we've gone to the extremes, right.
I get used to be that, Okay, you had no
choice but to have babies.
Speaker 2 (43:40):
When you're like twenty one. Yeah. To now we're.
Speaker 3 (43:43):
Pushing people all the way into their thirties and then
saying to them, okay, clock is ticking, yeah, and giving
them all this pressure and the expense. Then at that point,
if you have to then do IVF and all these
other things. I think that we are. We started at
one extreme and now we're at the other extreme, and
(44:03):
then they call it geriatric, right and then right trying.
Speaker 2 (44:06):
To make you feel like yes, and I would.
Speaker 3 (44:11):
What I want for women in the future, for my
daughter is that when she, first of all, she believes
that she can be ready to have a child earlier.
The fact that I didn't think I was ready, let's say,
at twenty six, is not because I wasn't ready, but
(44:34):
because I felt like the child rearing is so hard
in this country and in this world, that I needed
way more than I had. And that's not a good thing.
It's a reflection of how we as a society do
not support women and families that you feel like you
(44:57):
have to wait so long until.
Speaker 2 (44:59):
Every all your ducks are in a road. I have
a child.
Speaker 3 (45:02):
I want for my child that if she decides that
she's ready at twenty five, that she has the support
that she can do it at that age, or if
she wants.
Speaker 2 (45:13):
To do it later, she can do it later. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (45:15):
But I fear that we've gotten to a point where
it's like most twenty five year olds are like, ain't
no way.
Speaker 2 (45:21):
Yeah, I have to work, I have to get it
had in my career.
Speaker 3 (45:25):
I have to make all this money I have to Yeah,
we've made it impossible.
Speaker 2 (45:29):
Yeah, but I feel I do.
Speaker 1 (45:31):
I feel like, as you said, we swung so far
one way, and then we swung so far the other way.
I feel like by the time your daughter is coming up,
the pendulum will be back towards a more consistent medium
where it's like you'll have these choices, the girl we're
gonna hold ambreik.
Speaker 3 (45:51):
I mean, there's so much that is like, obviously the
world is not perfect, but I think that there's so
much for women that could be better, and just because
I and so many of my other friends who have
experienced motherhood, the overwhelming feeling is that it was a
(46:16):
positive change for their lives that they wouldn't mind or
maybe would have wanted to do earlier.
Speaker 2 (46:28):
And we got to be honest.
Speaker 3 (46:31):
About that and just say like, hey, like, something's not
right here where people.
Speaker 2 (46:36):
Feel like they have to wait.
Speaker 3 (46:40):
Not it's fine if they want to wait, yeah, but
when you feel like you have to do something, then
I think something.
Speaker 1 (46:46):
That's where we have to find and sort of shift
and figure out how do we change this, how do
we make it better?
Speaker 2 (46:54):
Because also, you know, work is work.
Speaker 3 (46:59):
And it's going to be it's going to be there
and you know, and it's also not going to be
there when you're eighty. Yeah, guess who will be And
I let's not forget that. I think it's so important
that I've always known that. Yeah, like work is work.
Speaker 2 (47:16):
It's great.
Speaker 3 (47:16):
Professional accomplishments are wonderful. You know, I want to be stable.
I want to have resources so that I don't have
to worry and struggle. But you have to keep your
priorities straight because at the end of the day, your boss,
your job, that company, you're so attached to, it's not
going to be there. And if you don't build a
(47:37):
life for yourself, whatever that life looks like, you know,
your chosen family, a family you create for yourself, whatever
that life is. If you don't lock that down, then
you're going to be looking back and wondering, Oh, who's
here for me.
Speaker 2 (47:51):
You gotta choose joy. You just gotta choose joy. You
gotta choose it and whatever that joy is for you
and create it and create its what you gotta do. Okay,
So three promptsky, I do this with all my guests.
Speaker 1 (48:09):
You can choose one, and you can have me choose one.
The time that you chose joy in your career, or
the time that you chose joy in your personal life,
or the time where you could not find joy anywhere.
Speaker 3 (48:29):
So choose one of those three.
Speaker 2 (48:34):
I will choose the time that I chose joy in
my personal life. Okay.
Speaker 3 (48:46):
When I uh, when I was in my early twenties,
I was I was like dating around, and I was
like dating all these different people.
Speaker 2 (48:59):
And and the one.
Speaker 3 (49:02):
Day that I walked into a party and I said
to myself, I'm just gonna try to have a conversation
that I enjoy with someone. I was like, there's no
objective here. I just want to know that I can
have a conversation that I enjoy and come away from
(49:24):
it feeling like I liked that conversation.
Speaker 2 (49:28):
Yeah, you know, that was that was interesting. That was good.
Speaker 3 (49:31):
And I went to this party and I had a
conversation with this man who whose name? After I left
the party, I did not remember. I didn't have his
contact information, I didn't have anything in common with him,
any friends in common, nothing.
Speaker 2 (49:48):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (49:48):
But I just it was the one conversation I had
at that party that I was like, that was really interesting. Wow,
And that was really enjoyable. And you know, thirteen years
later that man.
Speaker 2 (50:05):
That girl I love that way. So you left the
party and didn't have content.
Speaker 3 (50:11):
Literally, I'm telling you, I did not, And I'm bad
at names, so that's not funny.
Speaker 2 (50:17):
I did not. I did not remember it. Wow.
Speaker 3 (50:20):
And he gives me a lot of crap about that now,
But I did not remember his name. I lovet the party.
We didn't I mean, we had nothing, really, we just
two different worlds kind of came together. We just happened
to be in the same place that day. And then
the only reason that we were able to end up
dating was that about a month later, the same kind
(50:42):
of group of people through another party and we both just.
Speaker 2 (50:44):
Happened to go.
Speaker 3 (50:46):
And because we saw each other again, given that there's
really no reason in the world that we would ever
run into each other again, that's when we started dating.
But I always look back at that moment because a
lot of time times, you know, I think even before then,
I would go into kind of interactions being like who
(51:07):
is this person and.
Speaker 2 (51:08):
What do they do? And you know this? And are
they that? Or where did they go to school?
Speaker 3 (51:12):
And that one time, I was just like, I want
to just enjoy a conversation. And honestly, the first year
of our dating relationship, my philosophy was I'm gonna just
do this until I don't like it.
Speaker 2 (51:26):
Anymore, and here you are.
Speaker 3 (51:29):
Am.
Speaker 2 (51:31):
I was like, I was like, the minute, but I
don't like this anymore, It's done. I'm out of here.
I'm out of here, and I I was. I was
very transparent. I told him that.
Speaker 3 (51:42):
I was like, I was like, listen, I'm just going
to tell you right now that one thing you should
know about me is that as soon as I am
not enjoying this.
Speaker 2 (51:50):
Anymore, I'm gonna be dumb. And he was like, Okay,
cool baby, I am cracking up.
Speaker 1 (52:00):
To that night, cheers to that night, and you're just
smiling so strong all these years later.
Speaker 2 (52:08):
So that means he's doing something right. Wow, and he's
choosing joy. Yeah. I mean, listen, we.
Speaker 3 (52:12):
Choose relationships, no matter what kind they are, are about
choosing joy. Absolutely are about remembering the things that bring
you joy.
Speaker 2 (52:22):
Yes, in that other person. Yes, And that's that's that
lesson too. But I love it. Listen, ladies, if it's
not bringing you joy, let it go.
Speaker 1 (52:34):
Let it go and trust that the thing that you
really want is going to be there. Abby, you are
absolutely fabulous. Like I knew this and like you were
my friend in my head, but I love that I
get to actually see it in real life, face to face.
You are beautiful. You are fabulous. You there's a strength
(52:57):
and a courage that sort of like what's the word
that I'll want it just it's like your aura. It's
it's surround you and it's really really lovely to see
you walk in that. Just as another brown skinned girl,
it just delights me to see you in your space
in this space, but in the space that you occupy
(53:18):
with CNN, with all these people, and just standing strong
and holding your ground and doing it with poise and grace.
That is not an easy thing to do. So know
that I have your back and know that I'm cheering
for you and praying for you. But also I just
I think that you are lovely and I just keep going.
Speaker 3 (53:36):
And so it's been such a joy speaking to you
and just sharing with you. I mean, our journeys are
about finding our strength, ry and fundamentally, and when you
find that you can access joy, I really think so.
Speaker 2 (53:54):
Yes, And that's how it's been for me. I agree.
Speaker 3 (53:57):
I've had to kind of get to place where I'm
I know who I am at this point, Yes, And
because of that, I can let go of all the
other stuff and focus on the things that that bring
me joy.
Speaker 2 (54:12):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (54:13):
That's what it is, focusing on the things that bring
us joy. That is what we're doing. We are focusing
on the things that bring us joy. Abby, Philip, You're
the best. Thank you so much for coming and choosing
joy with me. Adim Jeers, what's up, everybody, It's stubborn
joy Winings. Williams back from choosing joy and today we
(54:37):
get to talk with.
Speaker 2 (54:38):
The one and only Abby Philip. Today I learned so much.
Speaker 1 (54:42):
I just learned about recognizing where a struggle is.
Speaker 2 (54:49):
How you persevere, how you.
Speaker 1 (54:51):
Move through things, and you do it with grace and
you're a head held high. I think that Abby is
so a profound voice in our day and time, and
to be able to recognize someone with so much beauty
and grace and courage and to know how they've had
(55:12):
to continue to survive and continue to become and continue
to rediscuss
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