September 25, 2023 • 31 mins
PowerPoint presentations - a necessary evil or an invaluable tool? Your hosts, Dustin Steffey and Fern Chan, unravel the mystery and bust common myths about PowerPoint presentations that leave your audience yawning. With a sprinkle of personal experiences and lots of practical tips, we show you the finer nuances of using PowerPoint as a true aid to your speeches, not just as a glorified teleprompter.
We're stacking this episode with a punch of visually engaging content, showing you the power of visuals and their ability to evoke emotions. We dive into the Jedi Formula - a secret sauce to create a riveting journey for your audience. Besides, we also talk about the art of using social media to keep your audience hooked. So, tune in and learn to make an impact with your presentations that lasts beyond the conference room! And don't forget to rate us on your favorite podcast platform.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dustin Steffey (00:00):
Welcome to a new week of chopping with fire.
You are going to be joined withyour host, dustin Steffi, and
Fern Chan in just a moment.
I'm excited because we aregoing to be talking about
presentations with respect toPowerPoints.
I know for most of you, you'veseen a PowerPoint and you
(00:21):
understand that you either doone of two things you fall
asleep or you think, oh no,death by PowerPoint.
Well, we are going to dive intothat and dive into speaking
skills in just a moment.
(00:55):
Welcome to chopping with fire,where we bring you relevant
experts in the topics ofbusiness, entrepreneurship,
development and, of course,smart investments.
Nominated by the People'sPodcast Awards in 2022 and 2023
as one of the top businesspodcasts hosted by owner, doctor
(01:19):
and content creator DustinSteppey, we are blessed to have
our podcast in the top 50,paving the way in five major
countries and counting, as wellas money raised for two amazing
causes cystic fibrosis and, ofcourse, the Boys and Girls Club.
(01:39):
With that being said, andwithout further ado, let's chop
it up.
Welcome to another episode ofChopin' with Fire.
(02:09):
I have on with me Fern Chan.
Fern, how are you?
Fern Chan (02:13):
Hi, I am wonderful.
This morning I'm calling infrom a rainy New York city but
otherwise smashing.
Dustin Steffey (02:20):
Well, I have nothing, nothing crazy, to say
to you about where I am.
I'm in the desert of a friendlyNevada, so not, not too much
fun here.
Fern Chan (02:30):
I'll take some dry air.
It's just wet and soggy.
I'll take some dry, dry, dryair.
Dustin Steffey (02:36):
It's good if you like a little bit of country
and like back roads and stuff,which I do.
However, there's more to lifethan just back roads.
Fern Chan (02:47):
That's true If you can navigate New York City
traffic and come out on skate.
That is like a life skill to Ibelieve.
Dustin Steffey (02:54):
Yeah, I'd say I'd like to try that out, but
I'd be lying to you because I'mnot a city person at all.
Fern Chan (03:01):
It's a different vibe , it's a different energy.
We're all kind of go go, goright, so I'm just rushing to go
nowhere.
Dustin Steffey (03:07):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
But enough about where we're at.
I think we have some fun today,some value.
You are professional when itcomes to speaking.
You're professional when itcomes to talking about how to
utilize PowerPoint appropriately.
I think a lot of themisconception with PowerPoint is
well, everybody hates itbecause that's the big, that's
(03:30):
the big tool that's used right,and so when, when I see a
PowerPoint come on, I'm like allright, get the pillow, let's go
.
Fern Chan (03:40):
I know that's, that's the, that's my mission, right?
How do we avoid death byPowerPoint?
And I feel bad because Ibelieve that PowerPoint is a
really powerful tool.
It was created so you couldmake your points powerfully and
the name PowerPoint.
But people have used it,misused it.
They've now using it like ateleprompter, because then
everybody puts up like agazillion bullet points.
(04:01):
They start to read it off likeline by line, verbatim.
And this is when you have theproblems that people are like oh
dear, you know it's, it's so,they're reading, it's a
read-along.
They're not listening to youspeak anymore.
And that's when you lose youraudience, whereas you know, if
you use it more as a visual tool, as an aid, you're going to get
far, much, a lot more buy-in,because why do people come to
listen to you to begin with,right, I always think like if
(04:24):
I'm presenting in a conferenceand I do this a lot people are
coming because they already havean interest in what I have to
say.
You already have a captiveaudience, regardless whether
it's at a conference or whetheryou're at a meeting.
You know they might not want tobe there, but listen, they're
there because they have tolisten to you or they want to
listen to you and it's you.
You have the information, youare the subject matter expert
(04:44):
and the PowerPoint or, you know,keynote or whatever that you
use is just a visual aid to helpyou tell your story as you
present your information.
So the point is, like you, howdo you make this message stick
Right so it doesn't just go inone ear and out the other?
Because I would be completelyflabbergasted and dejected if I
put in all this time to go outthere and pluck up the courage
(05:06):
to speak in front of an audience, only for all of it to fall on
deaf ears and nobody remembereda word I said.
So that would like suck bigtime.
Dustin Steffey (05:15):
I mean I enjoyed PowerPoint in higher education
because instead of going toclass I'd print those and learn
that and then be good to go.
So I mean I made it unscathedwith PowerPoint.
But it also has power to put meto sleep too, so I guess
PowerPoint's an appropriate name.
Fern Chan (05:31):
I love that power to put you to sleep.
Yeah, that's not what you want,right?
I mean, you want, you know,when you have your live audience
, that's the thing.
You have a live audience infront of you.
This is when you want to makesure you can engage them, hook
them in and keep them, you know,captivated.
So they're like leaning in tolearn more.
They want to know more.
That's what they came here tolisten to you for, right.
So don't waste that time, don'twaste your time and don't waste
(05:53):
your audience's time, becausethat's the other thing too.
And you know, I came about thisnot because I was brilliant from
the start.
No, I sucked At the beginning.
I committed all the same thingsthat most people do, which is,
you know, oh, put up all thesebullet points and I'll just talk
about it.
And we don't realize what it'slike for the audience to sit
through that right.
And so we're like, oh, my God,I just committed the same sins.
(06:16):
You know, when you start tofall asleep in presentations,
you're like God.
You know, when you'redaydreaming, when I escape, and
it's like where's the exit?
And you're stuck because youcan't go anywhere, that's the
worst.
And if I'm a speaker and I seepeople nodding off and sleep and
I was like, are there anyquestions?
And that's like crickets in theroom.
That to me is like, oh you know, soul crushing, soul crushing.
Dustin Steffey (06:39):
I think I think honestly, like you're right.
A PowerPoint is a visual aid tohelp aid in the overarching
conversation.
As a public speaker and or asan educator, it's how you
deliver the message.
So, like for me, I like to usestories to help grab attention
and keep people engaged, becausethen they're hooked.
(07:01):
So it doesn't matter if youhave one word on the PowerPoint
or paragraphs, I mean it doesmatter.
But what I'm trying to say is,if you can hook the audience in
a way where you're engaging as aperson, then I don't think it
really matters too terribly much.
Fern Chan (07:17):
In my opinion, Well, you know, you hit the nail on
the head.
Storytelling is one of the besttechniques to engage people in
your PowerPoint, right?
So I like to use it right upfront.
So you know how can you getpeople wanting to know more.
You tell a story so you canjust start out by saying imagine
this, imagine what would happenif Luke Skywalker wasn't able
(07:38):
to defeat Darth Vader.
What kind of world would we beliving in right now?
Right, oh, but he did.
Right Now, how did he overcome,how did he defeat the dark side
?
Right?
And so you can paint thatpicture.
And people, when they hear astory, they go imagine this.
They put themselves right inthe first person.
(07:58):
They put themselves in the hero, right?
Nobody wants to be the victimof the villain.
So they see themselves in thestory like how am I going to
overcome this?
How am I going to shoot theDeath Star?
We're going to do this, right,because there's, like there's a
journey involved, and that's oneof the things that gets people
involved, right.
Why do you hear a story?
You want to know how it ends.
Right, you have to ask thatquestion, open a loop in the
(08:19):
mind.
So people go oh, now can we doit?
How can we do it?
Show me, and that's how you getthem in.
So you should always like posethat question but say, imagine
what this would look like.
Right, how would we get there?
Let me show you Now.
They're like invested, so youcan see, like how storytelling
is so much more powerful ratherthan just like here are some
(08:40):
facts.
Right, here is data, and data,I tell you, is one of the, you
know, the biggest.
You know, this is where a lotof people do lop off and you
lose their attention becausethey look at graphs and data.
I'm like, oh my God, what thehell am I looking at?
And you've lost your audienceif you have too much data and
it's just facts and figures andit's really hard to relate to
(09:02):
facts and figures.
Dustin Steffey (09:04):
So, speaking of story time, let's take a step
back for a second here and let'sgo back to, oh I say, when you
started this journey, and let'shelp the audience understand who
is speaking right now, becausewe completely just dove right
into it without getting somebackground from well you, which
(09:25):
is important.
Fern Chan (09:27):
Yeah.
So I came from the world ofhigher education 15 years where
I was doing a lot ofprofessional development
training for adult learners.
A good chunk of it was alsoteaching law enforcement
officers.
I did a lot of crisiscommunication.
So basically, when I wastraining them, it was really
important for me to make surethat they received my message so
that it could apply it, becausethe point about crisis
(09:48):
communication is like, I need tomake sure that you can use your
words before I have to use yourgun Right.
So for me, that had a bigimpact in what I had to do to
make sure, like, hey, did youget my message?
Did the stick, can you use it?
All right, so I made sure thatyou know it landed, it resonated
and it made a connection.
So that was, you know, whatpropelled me to make sure that I
(10:09):
could be an effective as atrainer.
But also then that made surethat when I spoke in public or
when I was ever deliveringanything, that that was his key
thing to write, to also notoverwhelm them with too much
information.
What are three things I canimpart with you?
Just three things that brainscan only take in so much.
It's I always like to say ifyou only have a martini glass
(10:29):
worth of capacity to take itinformation, and you have a
whole kegs worth of beer, youknow what's that martini glasses
fill.
What a good juju you have afterthat point, no matter how good
people will stop listeningbecause they're at capacity.
So you have to really make surethat you know the information
that you give them is justenough to fill in that cup,
because once that cup runnethover, you know it's just wasted
(10:53):
information.
Dustin Steffey (10:55):
And so what got you into public speaking and
educating on crises and all ofthat stuff?
Was there something thathappened in your life that got
you there, or was this justsomething that you were
interested in and wanted tocommunicate?
Fern Chan (11:12):
Well, it was part of my job.
That was part of my job inhigher education, training,
professional developmenttraining, that sort of stuff
just to like for adult learners.
But also it required me to do alot of public speaking, and I
don't mind being in thelimelight.
I'm a bit of a microphone hog,limelight hog.
So for me being able to speakon stage and all of that was
(11:34):
perfect for my personalityBecause I did many other things
outside of my job that also gaveme a lot of hoodspot against
stuff there to say, hey, I canuse the same skills when I'm
performing on stage in this life, in this life.
And also, how do I bring some ofthe same skillsets over?
Because not many people knowthis about me, but I'll share
(11:56):
this with you and your listeners.
It's like I used to be aburlesque dancer.
So if you know anything aboutburlesque, you're up there
shaking a whole lot of things,whatever God-given assets that
you have to make sure that youraudience is engaged with you.
And I use those same skillsetswith my clothes on to make sure
that.
And I'm using my words and oneof the power of storytelling I
(12:17):
have to make sure that myaudience is connecting with me
resonating and that I can seethat they're like oh, did you
get that?
Would you like me to go on?
Okay, let's go.
Dustin Steffey (12:29):
So, just so I'm clear, you're pretty well
qualified for being on thisstage.
Then, because you have lots ofpractice, Lots of practice in
different stages, right?
Fern Chan (12:40):
Yes, so all of these also, you have to pull in from
whatever's in you, but, I think,also be authentic to yourself.
Not everybody's as loud andgregarious as I am, but I still
believe even shy introverts havea beautiful light in them, that
they have a message worthlistening to, that they can
still portray that.
(13:00):
Right, you want to be sure thatyou are authentic to yourself,
even if you're a shy person, butpeople can still see that,
because other shy people outthere in the audience can go oh,
I'm like this person and thatyou know.
I respect that.
So again, right, you don't haveto be loud and gregarious, but
you know, as long as you areauthentic to yourself, as long
as you know what you're talkingabout and you can speak about it
(13:21):
with passion and energy and youknow something that lights you
up, and I think that makes a bigdifference as well.
Dustin Steffey (13:28):
We will be right back after a quick break.
This week's episode is broughtto you by Inferno Performance.
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.
So we were talking before,before we got to know you.
We were talking a little bitand brushed on PowerPoint and we
brushed on public speaking.
Now, formally, I kind of wantto go through and just make sure
(15:30):
everybody has kind of a net winfrom this.
So we were discussing in publicspeaking having a strategy
going in, and one strategy thatyou and I had brought up was
storytelling, because that helpsto engage your audience.
However, there's plenty ofdifferent strategies and I'm
sure you've used them.
(15:50):
I know I've had to use them.
I know sometimes I can becaptain monotone when it's on
camera or in this podcastbecause, well, I take our
conversation seriously, butsometimes you have to have a
little bit of fun and add somespice to.
So I want to continue a littlebit on just the structure part
of public speaking and how touse PowerPoint in the most
(16:13):
appropriate way so you're notputting people to sleep.
No-transcript.
Fern Chan (16:18):
So I like to use images.
If you're going to usePowerPoint, right.
So one of the things that ourminds react really well to are
visuals, so put like a fullypicture of something.
But when you're using images,that's a picture tells a million
.
What's that saying?
It's like a picture's worth1,000 words, right, but you
don't need to see 1,000 words onthe screen.
(16:40):
So how do you use that image toevoke a sense of emotion?
Because people don't rememberwhat you say, but they remember
how you make them feel.
I'm paraphrasing from MayaAngelou here, but it's so true.
So when you put on an imagethat is striking whether it's
something that shocks orwhatever whatever you put up
there should evoke somethingvisceral.
(17:01):
If I have an emotional reactionto it, that's going to make me
remember that.
Like I could put up a pictureof like a juicy burger with
french fries just before lunchand everybody's going to go home
thinking about something.
But they're thinking, they'realready engaging with your
senses, and that's the otherthing.
Use images that also can.
What are the five senses that Ican evoke?
So I'm now like activating thatpart of their brain, because
(17:23):
people remember, like yourpicture, right, and that feeling
will give them that long termmemory.
So that's one of the key thingstoo, right, you can just put
like a whatever picture that youuse, but make sure like it's a
good image, right, it's high res, it's not pixelated, it's not
something that you've blown upor it's got like the watermark
(17:48):
on it because you didn't pay forthe full.
Don't do that, right.
Be professional.
Always remember where am Ipresenting this, so that people
will have this full effect.
If you are in live and you havea big screen, you want that to
hit them in the eye and go, whoa, what is this?
Right?
If you're sharing it on Zoom,you can go full screen.
People are going to watch andgo, wow, right Again.
So be mindful about when you'reusing images to tell that story,
(18:11):
because once people see thatimage, they're either telling
themselves what this image isabout, and then you can start
narrating right, do you see howthis picture is?
Right?
And then you start telling thestory behind the pictures.
And this works for children'sbooks as well.
Like, I don't know if you havekids, that's it.
I have two kids, so, prior tothem learning how to read, they
follow along these picture booksbecause they are following the
(18:33):
pictures.
They're seeing it tell a storyas I'm narrating.
And you know what?
We haven't evolved that much asadults, but kind of the same
too, so you can use the sametechniques for storytelling.
We're just using children'spicture books, which is what I
like to do.
Like, how do I put up an imagethat tells the story but also
will arouse emotion, that willmake them want to lean in to go,
(18:55):
wow, what is that image tellingme?
Dustin Steffey (19:00):
One.
I definitely do have kids, so Iunderstand what you're talking
about.
For sure.
I don't know if she listens,but hey, I do have kids too.
I like picture books.
I don't know why, I'm 35 yearold and I can read, but I like
picture books.
Fern Chan (19:16):
Me too.
My book's full of images,because I'm gonna tell you like
you can use these things so youcan see for yourself.
Right, it's like, oh, thatmakes sense, cause sometimes
we're like, if we can'tconceptualize certain things,
but then we can see a minuteimage, we're gonna go ah, now I
see what you're saying, right,so you get the picture.
Dustin Steffey (19:36):
Yeah, I mean I'm photogenic.
I have the photogenic mind aswell too, so I can go in and
look at like something and thenremember it.
And so people hated me andthat's okay, because I learned
things quicker than most.
Fern Chan (19:52):
That is such a great skill to have.
But let me impart somethingelse with your audience.
So I also have like a formulathat helps people sort of figure
out how we can, you know, insort of the storytelling arc,
right, and I call it like theJedi, so if you're a Star Wars
fan, you know you're my people.
So the Jedi or the J-E-D-I,right, think about a journey.
(20:15):
The J's for journey.
What is the journey you wannatake your audience on?
Because you know, a journeytells somebody like, oh, I'm
going on a trip, that's exciting, right.
Other than like, oh, it's justanother boring PowerPoint.
But I was like, oh, we're goingon a trip, where are we going?
Where's you know what's inthere we're gonna be doing,
right, what are the activities?
So you know, think of a storyabout a journey.
How are you gonna get thatperson Into this quest, right?
(20:38):
And then the E is experience.
And this is all about the feels.
How do you want your audienceto feel as they're listening to
your presentation, as they'relistening to your words, right?
What emotions do you want toarouse from them so they'll
remember what you have to say?
So they have a vested interestand they wanna know more.
And the D is obviously thedestination.
(20:59):
Where do you want them to go?
What is the end point?
What is the end result that youwant them to get after they've
gotten through all of this?
Right?
Does Luke Skywalker like defeatDarth Vader?
How does he do it right?
Does he have the faith inhimself that he can actually do
it?
So you know, you take himthrough all of that End point
destiny.
Gotta know where the end pointis right, otherwise he's like
(21:19):
what the hell am I listening to?
And then, finally, is the impact, the highest impact.
What action do you want them totake?
Right, how do you want them tobe impacted by your information
so that we'll wanna take action?
So always make sure that inthat impact, you get your
audience to take action, whetherit's just at the end of it, you
say, hey, how many of youlearned something?
(21:41):
Raise your hand at this, dah,dah, dah, dah dah.
Or take a picture of myinformation, or, you know,
whatever it is, have a call toaction so you know that you've
made a lasting impact afteryou've spoken.
And so that's just a quickrecap of, like my Jedi order, of
how you can, like you know,think about putting your
presentation, to make sure youhave all these four pieces as
(22:02):
you move forward in yourpresentation.
Dustin Steffey (22:06):
I think that's easy to remember.
So, and if you don't rememberit, you have this podcast to
listen to and an easy segue inyou've written a book.
Fern Chan (22:17):
I have written a book .
It's called how To Not Suck AtPresentations.
Transform your PresentationSkills From Boring to Badass,
because who doesn't want to be abadass right?
Dustin Steffey (22:28):
And I think that this book would be important
for oh, I don't know about 90percent of the corporate world
to read, so that way nobodyfalls asleep and your message is
being communicated.
Fern Chan (22:39):
Yes, well, that's, that's the goal, right, like one
, one presentation at a time.
Dustin Steffey (22:45):
Right, take it one step at a time.
This, this is great.
I'm going to have a link to thebook you you sold on Amazon,
correct, I would imagine?
Fern Chan (22:53):
Yeah, yeah.
And if you know what, if yourlisteners would like, I'll put a
link for you to.
If they want to read a freechapter of my book, they can do
so as well.
It's called the C3PO formula.
So all my Star Wars fans outthere, if you want to know what
the C3PO formula is after youjust learned about the Jedi
order, I'll link that in the.
I'll give it to Dustin so youcan share that with your
(23:14):
listeners as well.
Dustin Steffey (23:15):
This will be fun when I post this episode, I'll
just use a hashtag of Star Warsand see what we get from that
too.
Fern Chan (23:23):
Yeah Right, let's see how many Star Wars aficionados
nerds will respond becausethey're like, oh, I want to know
how C3PO can help me with mypresentations.
Dustin Steffey (23:35):
I mean, he knows how to speak all those
different languages, so it'spretty relevant.
Fern Chan (23:40):
Absolutely.
He knows a thing or two aboutyou know getting his message
across.
You know knowing, you know sixmillion different languages.
Dustin Steffey (23:46):
Yeah, exactly.
And so, segueing back, there'sbeen a wealth of knowledge
already right with respect topresent in, with respect to
public speaking, with respect tonot overutilizing PowerPoint in
a manner that puts people tosleep.
My question to you is what have, what?
(24:07):
Have you seen?
Have you had some of thosestruggles before, kind of
becoming this professional and Iuse in quotes badass that you
are now and going forward?
What is some good advice thatyou have for people that want to
public speak, people that wantto convey their message, people
that kind of just are there butthey're not there.
Fern Chan (24:32):
I think I make it shorter than you think you need
to.
I think people give too muchinformation.
That's one thing, and it's notbecause and it comes from a
place of giving and service Ireally do believe that right.
People have so much knowledgethey want to share and they want
to over deliver, but when youover deliver too much
information, nothing getsthrough right.
So I would say, if you thinkyou have like 10 things you want
(24:54):
to share with you, maybe sortit down to three and then the
other seven things you can saywould you like to know more?
This is your call to action.
Right, this is the impact partof it.
You know what?
Email me this or scan this QRcode to get the rest of the
seven things.
I'll be happy to share with youbecause then you have a captive
audience and they're going tocome back to you.
(25:15):
Right, they're going to go oh,I want to know more.
You've got the email addressesand you can like nurture them
and then you can talk to them.
You have an ongoingrelationship and this is key for
any entrepreneur out there.
If you're a coach or a trainer,you need to get people into
your sales funnel.
You need to make sure you cando a relationship with these
people.
If they've heard you speak, howdo you now continue that
(25:36):
relationship?
And you want to make sure thatyou can get a means to
communicate with them.
So that's one tip I'll sharewith your listeners.
Dustin Steffey (25:44):
I am the poster child of over communicating or
having too much in a message.
My significant half would tellyou that for sure, because then
she goes crazy with how much Iput into something.
It's a lot.
So, yeah, I agree with that100%.
Simplify it.
Fern Chan (26:03):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's almost like I mean, with
such a lot of people, I meanwith Ted talks they just have
the one thing right.
You just, you just talk aboutthe one thing.
And you know, sometimes it'shard to just talk about the one
thing when you have to coverother things.
So how do we, you know,subgroup some of those, some of
those other things to make surethat, you know, we still have
our audience listening to us ata point where, oh, I got that, I
(26:24):
want more.
But if you give too much,you're like, oh, you know, it's
like when they're over stuff,they don't want any more dessert
.
That's too much.
If they've already eaten toomuch, right, but you get a
little taste, Give them enoughthat they want to lean in for
more.
Dustin Steffey (26:36):
Always wanted to do a Ted talk and then I
watched them and had to studythem in school and I'd rather do
other things than a Ted talk.
Fern Chan (26:46):
There are many ways to be an effective speaker.
I mean I mean Ted's amazing,right.
I mean they have a wonderfulaudience, but also you have 18
minutes.
A Ted talk is 18 minutesmaximum and sometimes, when
you're engaged to speak at otherstages, you have a whole hour.
You have 40 minutes.
It's a different style, right?
So you can always incorporatesome of the best things that Ted
(27:07):
talks at, which is what I loveto do.
How do I take in some of thebest things?
How do I then make sure I cancraft it to my audience and the
format that it allows me to?
Because if you have a platformthat gives you the time to do
Q&A or forums or like, oh, I cando some hot seats, that's a
different style of communication, where you've imparted
(27:28):
knowledge, but now you're goingto get some people to really do
the stuff right.
So it's an open forum.
So you know how do you use someof those wonderful skills to
still get them engaged for alonger period of time.
Dustin Steffey (27:40):
Absolutely, and again I thank you for coming on
and kind of helping our audienceto understand there's more to
public speaking, just likethere's more to podcasting,
right Then going up to the stageand communicating words.
Also, thank you for touchingbase on everybody's favorite
(28:01):
tool, PowerPoint.
Fern Chan (28:04):
It's been an absolute pleasure and thank you so much
on being on this wonderfulepisode of chopping with fire.
I love playing with fire.
Dustin Steffey (28:13):
I like playing with fire too.
I play with it too much, so,anyway, I appreciate you.
Thank you for coming on, and ifmy listeners want to know more,
in the episode description Iwill have the link for you all
to read one chapter of the book.
I will have Fern'scommunication information as
well If you want to reach out toher, and, as always, you all
(28:35):
can reach out to me as well.
So, fern, thank you.
Fern Chan (28:40):
Thank you.
Dustin Steffey (28:41):
Thank you again for choosing chopping with fire
as your premier podcast foranything with regards to
business, entrepreneurship, selfdevelopment and smart
investment decisions.
If you enjoyed the episode asmuch as we did, please head on
over to one of our socialplatforms and leave us a comment
and or at us.
(29:02):
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We do have a LinkedIn, we havea Facebook, instagram, youtube
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Head on over to www dotshopping with a firecom that's C
H O P P I?
N with firecom and take a lookat prior content that we have
(29:26):
posted.
Lastly, if you guys can, pleasehead on over to your favorite
podcast platform and leave us afive star rating and review.
We love to interact with ourfans and I would love to post
responses to your guys'scomments.
Again, this was another episodeof chopping with fire.
Welcome to a new week of chopping with fire.
You are going to be joined withyour host, dustin Steffi, and
Fern Chan in just a moment.
I'm excited because we aregoing to be talking about
presentations with respect toPowerPoints.
I know for most of you, you'veseen a PowerPoint and you
(00:21):
understand that you either doone of two things you fall
asleep or you think, oh no,death by PowerPoint.
Well, we are going to dive intothat and dive into speaking
skills in just a moment.
(00:55):
Welcome to chopping with fire,where we bring you relevant
experts in the topics ofbusiness, entrepreneurship,
development and, of course,smart investments.
Nominated by the People'sPodcast Awards in 2022 and 2023
as one of the top businesspodcasts hosted by owner, doctor
(01:19):
and content creator DustinSteppey, we are blessed to have
our podcast in the top 50,paving the way in five major
countries and counting, as wellas money raised for two amazing
causes cystic fibrosis and, ofcourse, the Boys and Girls Club.
(01:39):
With that being said, andwithout further ado, let's chop
it up.
Welcome to another episode ofChopin' with Fire.
(02:09):
I have on with me Fern Chan.
Fern, how are you?
Fern Chan (02:13):
Hi, I am wonderful.
This morning I'm calling infrom a rainy New York city but
otherwise smashing.
Dustin Steffey (02:20):
Well, I have nothing, nothing crazy, to say
to you about where I am.
I'm in the desert of a friendlyNevada, so not, not too much
fun here.
Fern Chan (02:30):
I'll take some dry air.
It's just wet and soggy.
I'll take some dry, dry, dryair.
Dustin Steffey (02:36):
It's good if you like a little bit of country
and like back roads and stuff,which I do.
However, there's more to lifethan just back roads.
Fern Chan (02:47):
That's true If you can navigate New York City
traffic and come out on skate.
That is like a life skill to Ibelieve.
Dustin Steffey (02:54):
Yeah, I'd say I'd like to try that out, but
I'd be lying to you because I'mnot a city person at all.
Fern Chan (03:01):
It's a different vibe , it's a different energy.
We're all kind of go go, goright, so I'm just rushing to go
nowhere.
Dustin Steffey (03:07):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
But enough about where we're at.
I think we have some fun today,some value.
You are professional when itcomes to speaking.
You're professional when itcomes to talking about how to
utilize PowerPoint appropriately.
I think a lot of themisconception with PowerPoint is
well, everybody hates itbecause that's the big, that's
(03:30):
the big tool that's used right,and so when, when I see a
PowerPoint come on, I'm like allright, get the pillow, let's go
.
Fern Chan (03:40):
I know that's, that's the, that's my mission, right?
How do we avoid death byPowerPoint?
And I feel bad because Ibelieve that PowerPoint is a
really powerful tool.
It was created so you couldmake your points powerfully and
the name PowerPoint.
But people have used it,misused it.
They've now using it like ateleprompter, because then
everybody puts up like agazillion bullet points.
(04:01):
They start to read it off likeline by line, verbatim.
And this is when you have theproblems that people are like oh
dear, you know it's, it's so,they're reading, it's a
read-along.
They're not listening to youspeak anymore.
And that's when you lose youraudience, whereas you know, if
you use it more as a visual tool, as an aid, you're going to get
far, much, a lot more buy-in,because why do people come to
listen to you to begin with,right, I always think like if
(04:24):
I'm presenting in a conferenceand I do this a lot people are
coming because they already havean interest in what I have to
say.
You already have a captiveaudience, regardless whether
it's at a conference or whetheryou're at a meeting.
You know they might not want tobe there, but listen, they're
there because they have tolisten to you or they want to
listen to you and it's you.
You have the information, youare the subject matter expert
(04:44):
and the PowerPoint or, you know,keynote or whatever that you
use is just a visual aid to helpyou tell your story as you
present your information.
So the point is, like you, howdo you make this message stick
Right so it doesn't just go inone ear and out the other?
Because I would be completelyflabbergasted and dejected if I
put in all this time to go outthere and pluck up the courage
(05:06):
to speak in front of an audience, only for all of it to fall on
deaf ears and nobody remembereda word I said.
So that would like suck bigtime.
Dustin Steffey (05:15):
I mean I enjoyed PowerPoint in higher education
because instead of going toclass I'd print those and learn
that and then be good to go.
So I mean I made it unscathedwith PowerPoint.
But it also has power to put meto sleep too, so I guess
PowerPoint's an appropriate name.
Fern Chan (05:31):
I love that power to put you to sleep.
Yeah, that's not what you want,right?
I mean, you want, you know,when you have your live audience
, that's the thing.
You have a live audience infront of you.
This is when you want to makesure you can engage them, hook
them in and keep them, you know,captivated.
So they're like leaning in tolearn more.
They want to know more.
That's what they came here tolisten to you for, right.
So don't waste that time, don'twaste your time and don't waste
(05:53):
your audience's time, becausethat's the other thing too.
And you know, I came about thisnot because I was brilliant from
the start.
No, I sucked At the beginning.
I committed all the same thingsthat most people do, which is,
you know, oh, put up all thesebullet points and I'll just talk
about it.
And we don't realize what it'slike for the audience to sit
through that right.
And so we're like, oh, my God,I just committed the same sins.
(06:16):
You know, when you start tofall asleep in presentations,
you're like God.
You know, when you'redaydreaming, when I escape, and
it's like where's the exit?
And you're stuck because youcan't go anywhere, that's the
worst.
And if I'm a speaker and I seepeople nodding off and sleep and
I was like, are there anyquestions?
And that's like crickets in theroom.
That to me is like, oh you know, soul crushing, soul crushing.
Dustin Steffey (06:39):
I think I think honestly, like you're right.
A PowerPoint is a visual aid tohelp aid in the overarching
conversation.
As a public speaker and or asan educator, it's how you
deliver the message.
So, like for me, I like to usestories to help grab attention
and keep people engaged, becausethen they're hooked.
(07:01):
So it doesn't matter if youhave one word on the PowerPoint
or paragraphs, I mean it doesmatter.
But what I'm trying to say is,if you can hook the audience in
a way where you're engaging as aperson, then I don't think it
really matters too terribly much.
Fern Chan (07:17):
In my opinion, Well, you know, you hit the nail on
the head.
Storytelling is one of the besttechniques to engage people in
your PowerPoint, right?
So I like to use it right upfront.
So you know how can you getpeople wanting to know more.
You tell a story so you canjust start out by saying imagine
this, imagine what would happenif Luke Skywalker wasn't able
(07:38):
to defeat Darth Vader.
What kind of world would we beliving in right now?
Right, oh, but he did.
Right Now, how did he overcome,how did he defeat the dark side
?
Right?
And so you can paint thatpicture.
And people, when they hear astory, they go imagine this.
They put themselves right inthe first person.
(07:58):
They put themselves in the hero, right?
Nobody wants to be the victimof the villain.
So they see themselves in thestory like how am I going to
overcome this?
How am I going to shoot theDeath Star?
We're going to do this, right,because there's, like there's a
journey involved, and that's oneof the things that gets people
involved, right.
Why do you hear a story?
You want to know how it ends.
Right, you have to ask thatquestion, open a loop in the
(08:19):
mind.
So people go oh, now can we doit?
How can we do it?
Show me, and that's how you getthem in.
So you should always like posethat question but say, imagine
what this would look like.
Right, how would we get there?
Let me show you Now.
They're like invested, so youcan see, like how storytelling
is so much more powerful ratherthan just like here are some
(08:40):
facts.
Right, here is data, and data,I tell you, is one of the, you
know, the biggest.
You know, this is where a lotof people do lop off and you
lose their attention becausethey look at graphs and data.
I'm like, oh my God, what thehell am I looking at?
And you've lost your audienceif you have too much data and
it's just facts and figures andit's really hard to relate to
(09:02):
facts and figures.
Dustin Steffey (09:04):
So, speaking of story time, let's take a step
back for a second here and let'sgo back to, oh I say, when you
started this journey, and let'shelp the audience understand who
is speaking right now, becausewe completely just dove right
into it without getting somebackground from well you, which
(09:25):
is important.
Fern Chan (09:27):
Yeah.
So I came from the world ofhigher education 15 years where
I was doing a lot ofprofessional development
training for adult learners.
A good chunk of it was alsoteaching law enforcement
officers.
I did a lot of crisiscommunication.
So basically, when I wastraining them, it was really
important for me to make surethat they received my message so
that it could apply it, becausethe point about crisis
(09:48):
communication is like, I need tomake sure that you can use your
words before I have to use yourgun Right.
So for me, that had a bigimpact in what I had to do to
make sure, like, hey, did youget my message?
Did the stick, can you use it?
All right, so I made sure thatyou know it landed, it resonated
and it made a connection.
So that was, you know, whatpropelled me to make sure that I
(10:09):
could be an effective as atrainer.
But also then that made surethat when I spoke in public or
when I was ever deliveringanything, that that was his key
thing to write, to also notoverwhelm them with too much
information.
What are three things I canimpart with you?
Just three things that brainscan only take in so much.
It's I always like to say ifyou only have a martini glass
(10:29):
worth of capacity to take itinformation, and you have a
whole kegs worth of beer, youknow what's that martini glasses
fill.
What a good juju you have afterthat point, no matter how good
people will stop listeningbecause they're at capacity.
So you have to really make surethat you know the information
that you give them is justenough to fill in that cup,
because once that cup runnethover, you know it's just wasted
(10:53):
information.
Dustin Steffey (10:55):
And so what got you into public speaking and
educating on crises and all ofthat stuff?
Was there something thathappened in your life that got
you there, or was this justsomething that you were
interested in and wanted tocommunicate?
Fern Chan (11:12):
Well, it was part of my job.
That was part of my job inhigher education, training,
professional developmenttraining, that sort of stuff
just to like for adult learners.
But also it required me to do alot of public speaking, and I
don't mind being in thelimelight.
I'm a bit of a microphone hog,limelight hog.
So for me being able to speakon stage and all of that was
(11:34):
perfect for my personalityBecause I did many other things
outside of my job that also gaveme a lot of hoodspot against
stuff there to say, hey, I canuse the same skills when I'm
performing on stage in this life, in this life.
And also, how do I bring some ofthe same skillsets over?
Because not many people knowthis about me, but I'll share
(11:56):
this with you and your listeners.
It's like I used to be aburlesque dancer.
So if you know anything aboutburlesque, you're up there
shaking a whole lot of things,whatever God-given assets that
you have to make sure that youraudience is engaged with you.
And I use those same skillsetswith my clothes on to make sure
that.
And I'm using my words and oneof the power of storytelling I
(12:17):
have to make sure that myaudience is connecting with me
resonating and that I can seethat they're like oh, did you
get that?
Would you like me to go on?
Okay, let's go.
Dustin Steffey (12:29):
So, just so I'm clear, you're pretty well
qualified for being on thisstage.
Then, because you have lots ofpractice, Lots of practice in
different stages, right?
Fern Chan (12:40):
Yes, so all of these also, you have to pull in from
whatever's in you, but, I think,also be authentic to yourself.
Not everybody's as loud andgregarious as I am, but I still
believe even shy introverts havea beautiful light in them, that
they have a message worthlistening to, that they can
still portray that.
(13:00):
Right, you want to be sure thatyou are authentic to yourself,
even if you're a shy person, butpeople can still see that,
because other shy people outthere in the audience can go oh,
I'm like this person and thatyou know.
I respect that.
So again, right, you don't haveto be loud and gregarious, but
you know, as long as you areauthentic to yourself, as long
as you know what you're talkingabout and you can speak about it
(13:21):
with passion and energy and youknow something that lights you
up, and I think that makes a bigdifference as well.
Dustin Steffey (13:28):
We will be right back after a quick break.
This week's episode is broughtto you by Inferno Performance.
My boy, dante Moke, over in thePhoenix area, has three
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(14:44):
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(15:06):
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.
So we were talking before,before we got to know you.
We were talking a little bitand brushed on PowerPoint and we
brushed on public speaking.
Now, formally, I kind of wantto go through and just make sure
(15:30):
everybody has kind of a net winfrom this.
So we were discussing in publicspeaking having a strategy
going in, and one strategy thatyou and I had brought up was
storytelling, because that helpsto engage your audience.
However, there's plenty ofdifferent strategies and I'm
sure you've used them.
(15:50):
I know I've had to use them.
I know sometimes I can becaptain monotone when it's on
camera or in this podcastbecause, well, I take our
conversation seriously, butsometimes you have to have a
little bit of fun and add somespice to.
So I want to continue a littlebit on just the structure part
of public speaking and how touse PowerPoint in the most
(16:13):
appropriate way so you're notputting people to sleep.
No-transcript.
Fern Chan (16:18):
So I like to use images.
If you're going to usePowerPoint, right.
So one of the things that ourminds react really well to are
visuals, so put like a fullypicture of something.
But when you're using images,that's a picture tells a million
.
What's that saying?
It's like a picture's worth1,000 words, right, but you
don't need to see 1,000 words onthe screen.
(16:40):
So how do you use that image toevoke a sense of emotion?
Because people don't rememberwhat you say, but they remember
how you make them feel.
I'm paraphrasing from MayaAngelou here, but it's so true.
So when you put on an imagethat is striking whether it's
something that shocks orwhatever whatever you put up
there should evoke somethingvisceral.
(17:01):
If I have an emotional reactionto it, that's going to make me
remember that.
Like I could put up a pictureof like a juicy burger with
french fries just before lunchand everybody's going to go home
thinking about something.
But they're thinking, they'realready engaging with your
senses, and that's the otherthing.
Use images that also can.
What are the five senses that Ican evoke?
So I'm now like activating thatpart of their brain, because
(17:23):
people remember, like yourpicture, right, and that feeling
will give them that long termmemory.
So that's one of the key thingstoo, right, you can just put
like a whatever picture that youuse, but make sure like it's a
good image, right, it's high res, it's not pixelated, it's not
something that you've blown upor it's got like the watermark
(17:48):
on it because you didn't pay forthe full.
Don't do that, right.
Be professional.
Always remember where am Ipresenting this, so that people
will have this full effect.
If you are in live and you havea big screen, you want that to
hit them in the eye and go, whoa, what is this?
Right?
If you're sharing it on Zoom,you can go full screen.
People are going to watch andgo, wow, right Again.
So be mindful about when you'reusing images to tell that story,
(18:11):
because once people see thatimage, they're either telling
themselves what this image isabout, and then you can start
narrating right, do you see howthis picture is?
Right?
And then you start telling thestory behind the pictures.
And this works for children'sbooks as well.
Like, I don't know if you havekids, that's it.
I have two kids, so, prior tothem learning how to read, they
follow along these picture booksbecause they are following the
(18:33):
pictures.
They're seeing it tell a storyas I'm narrating.
And you know what?
We haven't evolved that much asadults, but kind of the same
too, so you can use the sametechniques for storytelling.
We're just using children'spicture books, which is what I
like to do.
Like, how do I put up an imagethat tells the story but also
will arouse emotion, that willmake them want to lean in to go,
(18:55):
wow, what is that image tellingme?
Dustin Steffey (19:00):
One.
I definitely do have kids, so Iunderstand what you're talking
about.
For sure.
I don't know if she listens,but hey, I do have kids too.
I like picture books.
I don't know why, I'm 35 yearold and I can read, but I like
picture books.
Fern Chan (19:16):
Me too.
My book's full of images,because I'm gonna tell you like
you can use these things so youcan see for yourself.
Right, it's like, oh, thatmakes sense, cause sometimes
we're like, if we can'tconceptualize certain things,
but then we can see a minuteimage, we're gonna go ah, now I
see what you're saying, right,so you get the picture.
Dustin Steffey (19:36):
Yeah, I mean I'm photogenic.
I have the photogenic mind aswell too, so I can go in and
look at like something and thenremember it.
And so people hated me andthat's okay, because I learned
things quicker than most.
Fern Chan (19:52):
That is such a great skill to have.
But let me impart somethingelse with your audience.
So I also have like a formulathat helps people sort of figure
out how we can, you know, insort of the storytelling arc,
right, and I call it like theJedi, so if you're a Star Wars
fan, you know you're my people.
So the Jedi or the J-E-D-I,right, think about a journey.
(20:15):
The J's for journey.
What is the journey you wannatake your audience on?
Because you know, a journeytells somebody like, oh, I'm
going on a trip, that's exciting, right.
Other than like, oh, it's justanother boring PowerPoint.
But I was like, oh, we're goingon a trip, where are we going?
Where's you know what's inthere we're gonna be doing,
right, what are the activities?
So you know, think of a storyabout a journey.
How are you gonna get thatperson Into this quest, right?
(20:38):
And then the E is experience.
And this is all about the feels.
How do you want your audienceto feel as they're listening to
your presentation, as they'relistening to your words, right?
What emotions do you want toarouse from them so they'll
remember what you have to say?
So they have a vested interestand they wanna know more.
And the D is obviously thedestination.
(20:59):
Where do you want them to go?
What is the end point?
What is the end result that youwant them to get after they've
gotten through all of this?
Right?
Does Luke Skywalker like defeatDarth Vader?
How does he do it right?
Does he have the faith inhimself that he can actually do
it?
So you know, you take himthrough all of that End point
destiny.
Gotta know where the end pointis right, otherwise he's like
(21:19):
what the hell am I listening to?
And then, finally, is the impact, the highest impact.
What action do you want them totake?
Right, how do you want them tobe impacted by your information
so that we'll wanna take action?
So always make sure that inthat impact, you get your
audience to take action, whetherit's just at the end of it, you
say, hey, how many of youlearned something?
(21:41):
Raise your hand at this, dah,dah, dah, dah dah.
Or take a picture of myinformation, or, you know,
whatever it is, have a call toaction so you know that you've
made a lasting impact afteryou've spoken.
And so that's just a quickrecap of, like my Jedi order, of
how you can, like you know,think about putting your
presentation, to make sure youhave all these four pieces as
(22:02):
you move forward in yourpresentation.
Dustin Steffey (22:06):
I think that's easy to remember.
So, and if you don't rememberit, you have this podcast to
listen to and an easy segue inyou've written a book.
Fern Chan (22:17):
I have written a book .
It's called how To Not Suck AtPresentations.
Transform your PresentationSkills From Boring to Badass,
because who doesn't want to be abadass right?
Dustin Steffey (22:28):
And I think that this book would be important
for oh, I don't know about 90percent of the corporate world
to read, so that way nobodyfalls asleep and your message is
being communicated.
Fern Chan (22:39):
Yes, well, that's, that's the goal, right, like one
, one presentation at a time.
Dustin Steffey (22:45):
Right, take it one step at a time.
This, this is great.
I'm going to have a link to thebook you you sold on Amazon,
correct, I would imagine?
Fern Chan (22:53):
Yeah, yeah.
And if you know what, if yourlisteners would like, I'll put a
link for you to.
If they want to read a freechapter of my book, they can do
so as well.
It's called the C3PO formula.
So all my Star Wars fans outthere, if you want to know what
the C3PO formula is after youjust learned about the Jedi
order, I'll link that in the.
I'll give it to Dustin so youcan share that with your
(23:14):
listeners as well.
Dustin Steffey (23:15):
This will be fun when I post this episode, I'll
just use a hashtag of Star Warsand see what we get from that
too.
Fern Chan (23:23):
Yeah Right, let's see how many Star Wars aficionados
nerds will respond becausethey're like, oh, I want to know
how C3PO can help me with mypresentations.
Dustin Steffey (23:35):
I mean, he knows how to speak all those
different languages, so it'spretty relevant.
Fern Chan (23:40):
Absolutely.
He knows a thing or two aboutyou know getting his message
across.
You know knowing, you know sixmillion different languages.
Dustin Steffey (23:46):
Yeah, exactly.
And so, segueing back, there'sbeen a wealth of knowledge
already right with respect topresent in, with respect to
public speaking, with respect tonot overutilizing PowerPoint in
a manner that puts people tosleep.
My question to you is what have, what?
(24:07):
Have you seen?
Have you had some of thosestruggles before, kind of
becoming this professional and Iuse in quotes badass that you
are now and going forward?
What is some good advice thatyou have for people that want to
public speak, people that wantto convey their message, people
that kind of just are there butthey're not there.
Fern Chan (24:32):
I think I make it shorter than you think you need
to.
I think people give too muchinformation.
That's one thing, and it's notbecause and it comes from a
place of giving and service Ireally do believe that right.
People have so much knowledgethey want to share and they want
to over deliver, but when youover deliver too much
information, nothing getsthrough right.
So I would say, if you thinkyou have like 10 things you want
(24:54):
to share with you, maybe sortit down to three and then the
other seven things you can saywould you like to know more?
This is your call to action.
Right, this is the impact partof it.
You know what?
Email me this or scan this QRcode to get the rest of the
seven things.
I'll be happy to share with youbecause then you have a captive
audience and they're going tocome back to you.
(25:15):
Right, they're going to go oh,I want to know more.
You've got the email addressesand you can like nurture them
and then you can talk to them.
You have an ongoingrelationship and this is key for
any entrepreneur out there.
If you're a coach or a trainer,you need to get people into
your sales funnel.
You need to make sure you cando a relationship with these
people.
If they've heard you speak, howdo you now continue that
(25:36):
relationship?
And you want to make sure thatyou can get a means to
communicate with them.
So that's one tip I'll sharewith your listeners.
Dustin Steffey (25:44):
I am the poster child of over communicating or
having too much in a message.
My significant half would tellyou that for sure, because then
she goes crazy with how much Iput into something.
It's a lot.
So, yeah, I agree with that100%.
Simplify it.
Fern Chan (26:03):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's almost like I mean, with
such a lot of people, I meanwith Ted talks they just have
the one thing right.
You just, you just talk aboutthe one thing.
And you know, sometimes it'shard to just talk about the one
thing when you have to coverother things.
So how do we, you know,subgroup some of those, some of
those other things to make surethat, you know, we still have
our audience listening to us ata point where, oh, I got that, I
(26:24):
want more.
But if you give too much,you're like, oh, you know, it's
like when they're over stuff,they don't want any more dessert
.
That's too much.
If they've already eaten toomuch, right, but you get a
little taste, Give them enoughthat they want to lean in for
more.
Dustin Steffey (26:36):
Always wanted to do a Ted talk and then I
watched them and had to studythem in school and I'd rather do
other things than a Ted talk.
Fern Chan (26:46):
There are many ways to be an effective speaker.
I mean I mean Ted's amazing,right.
I mean they have a wonderfulaudience, but also you have 18
minutes.
A Ted talk is 18 minutesmaximum and sometimes, when
you're engaged to speak at otherstages, you have a whole hour.
You have 40 minutes.
It's a different style, right?
So you can always incorporatesome of the best things that Ted
(27:07):
talks at, which is what I loveto do.
How do I take in some of thebest things?
How do I then make sure I cancraft it to my audience and the
format that it allows me to?
Because if you have a platformthat gives you the time to do
Q&A or forums or like, oh, I cando some hot seats, that's a
different style of communication, where you've imparted
(27:28):
knowledge, but now you're goingto get some people to really do
the stuff right.
So it's an open forum.
So you know how do you use someof those wonderful skills to
still get them engaged for alonger period of time.
Dustin Steffey (27:40):
Absolutely, and again I thank you for coming on
and kind of helping our audienceto understand there's more to
public speaking, just likethere's more to podcasting,
right Then going up to the stageand communicating words.
Also, thank you for touchingbase on everybody's favorite
(28:01):
tool, PowerPoint.
Fern Chan (28:04):
It's been an absolute pleasure and thank you so much
on being on this wonderfulepisode of chopping with fire.
I love playing with fire.
Dustin Steffey (28:13):
I like playing with fire too.
I play with it too much, so,anyway, I appreciate you.
Thank you for coming on, and ifmy listeners want to know more,
in the episode description Iwill have the link for you all
to read one chapter of the book.
I will have Fern'scommunication information as
well If you want to reach out toher, and, as always, you all
(28:35):
can reach out to me as well.
So, fern, thank you.
Fern Chan (28:40):
Thank you.
Dustin Steffey (28:41):
Thank you again for choosing chopping with fire
as your premier podcast foranything with regards to
business, entrepreneurship, selfdevelopment and smart
investment decisions.
If you enjoyed the episode asmuch as we did, please head on
over to one of our socialplatforms and leave us a comment
and or at us.
(29:02):
We do have a tip talk.
We do have a LinkedIn, we havea Facebook, instagram, youtube
as well, and also we do have awebsite.
Head on over to www dotshopping with a firecom that's C
H O P P I?
N with firecom and take a lookat prior content that we have
(29:26):
posted.
Lastly, if you guys can, pleasehead on over to your favorite
podcast platform and leave us afive star rating and review.
We love to interact with ourfans and I would love to post
responses to your guys'scomments.
Again, this was another episodeof chopping with fire.
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