May 14, 2025 • 46 mins
We're releasing those boys of the Bible to take the reins of this edition of Chris Fabry Live. That's right, Dr. Michael Rydelnik and Dr. Michael Vanlaningham—the two Michaels—will host an hour of biblical conversation at the Radio Backyard Fence. Have a question about a problem passage or a concern about your Christian life? Don't miss the Two Michaels on Chris Fabry Live.
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Moody Bible Commentary
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:07):
Hello friends. Welcome to Chris Fabry Live, and I hope
you can tell already that I am not Chris Fabry.
So the why are we calling it Chris Fabry live?
Because that's the name of the program. But I am
sitting in for Chris today. My name is Michael Redlich.
You may know me from the two Michaels, but I
am here. I'm the academic dean and vice and professor
(00:28):
of Jewish Studies here at Moody Bible Institute, and I'm
so glad to be sitting in for Chris today. It's
so exciting. We're talking about the scriptures today. We're talking
about your spiritual life and your questions about it. Uh,
it's one of those special two Michaels days, and I'm
so grateful to be here with you for our time together.
Let me give you the phone number. Right off the bat,
(00:49):
off the bat, right out the gate. 8775483. 675. That's 5483675.
If you have a question about the Bible, about God,
about the spiritual life or anything like that, give us
(01:09):
a call today. (877) 548-3675. It's going to be a fun
time as we dive into the scriptures together today. And now.
My guest with me, I guess we're both guests today. Uh,
is Doctor Michael Van Laningham. He is a retired professor
(01:34):
from Moody Bible Institute, retired pastor from Harvest Bible Chapel. Uh,
my collaborator with me is co-editor. We work together on
the Moody Bible Commentary for about 25 years of our life.
Seemed like it, and now joins me every month with
Chris right here on Chris Fabry Live with the two
(01:55):
Michaels section. Hey, Michael, how are you doing here?
S2 (01:58):
How are we doing today, chief?
S1 (01:59):
Yeah. There's no voice in between us now. We have
to do it all.
S2 (02:02):
We do, we do. How are we going to do that?
You can do it. You can do.
S1 (02:06):
It. We can handle it. But the question is, will
they let Fabbri back?
S2 (02:09):
Um, we're going to do so. Well, they will not need.
S1 (02:12):
It'll become the two Michaels. That's right. Alive. That's what we're. No, no,
I don't think so. Hey, uh, so, you know, I
introduced you as retired professor from Moody Bible Institute. Retired pastor. Right?
S2 (02:24):
Yep.
S1 (02:24):
Uh, I'm tired of saying that, but I, too, are
moving into partial retirement. Uh, June 30th, I will retire
from education. Not from working. Uh, not from the kingdom,
but retire from education. I'm stepping away from being Dean,
(02:45):
stepping away from full time in the classroom, going to
teach one course in the fall, but mainly going to
focus on radio. Uh, so I'm not really fully retired,
but that's it. But. So people have asked me, how
can you retire? I thought that there's no biblical concept
of retirement. And we were just talking about that.
S2 (03:05):
We were. And, uh, at least in the New Testament,
I don't think there is. And unfortunately, I, uh, I've
preached on a number of occasions, there's no such thing
as retirement, you know, and, um, then I got laid
off at Moody. It's okay, it's okay. And I worked
for Harvest Bible.
S1 (03:23):
Church for so long that it functioned as a retirement,
even though that was not.
S2 (03:27):
Yeah. I mean, they consider me retired. Yeah. And I
worked worked at Harvest Bible Chapel and then I got
laid off there and it's okay. It's okay. Nobody wanted
to hire a 66 year old Bible professor or pastor.
Go figure. And so we could retire. So I did,
and I'm plenty busy at church still. Really?
S1 (03:46):
You're on the elder board of the church that that
you retired from?
S2 (03:49):
I'm on the elder board. I'm preaching twice at harvest
this month and at another place also, um, in a week,
so I'm busy from that standpoint also. It's been really great.
I really enjoy it.
S1 (04:00):
Yeah. And, uh, you're you're you're younger, much, much younger
looking wife. Uh, she too has, uh, officially retired.
S2 (04:09):
Yeah. It's been a couple of years now. She was
22 years as bookkeeper at Emmanuel Church in Gurnee, and
she has stepped down. So we are together now doing
all kinds of fun things.
S1 (04:20):
Yeah, we're getting up at 430 and walk in the neighborhood, right?
S2 (04:22):
Yeah. We're retired. We don't have to get up that
early anymore, but we still walk a lot.
S1 (04:26):
We do now. Uh, Eva won't let me use the
word retired. I can only say it because she's not here.
My wife, she's like, you're not retired. She won't let me.
She wants me to work, right? Because otherwise I'll be
around too much. It'll be really annoying. So, uh, but
the the point that she had is that you don't
really get to retire. I'm changing my focus from education,
(04:49):
but I don't think we can retire from the kingdom
or from service of the King I.
S2 (04:55):
To me, it seems like if we decide that we're
going to retire and put our feet up and sit
by a pool and do nothing the rest of our lives,
or just indulge ourselves with travel and all kinds of
other things. And we're not involved in any kind of ministry.
Surely that's not right. No. So there's got to be
balance in there, at the very least.
S1 (05:12):
Now, someone called me on Open line, which is where I.
On Saturdays I answer Bible questions and I said, there's
no such thing as retirement in the Bible. And of course,
another caller called up right away and pointed out a
passage to me, and I thought we should talk about it.
It's numbers eight, verse 23 through 26. I'm going to
(05:33):
read it. The Lord spoke to Moses. In regard to
the Levites from 25 years old or more, a man
enters the service in the work at the tent of meeting.
But at 50 years old, he is to retire from
his service in the work and no longer serve. Irv.
He may assist his brothers to fulfill responsibilities at the
(05:56):
Tent of Meeting, but he must not do the work.
This is how you are to deal with the Levites
regarding their duties, and I thought it's not quite a
full retirement, is it?
S2 (06:10):
No. Um, I mean, Michael's going to comment more on this,
but to be a priest was a huge amount of work. Um,
I mean, they had to.
S3 (06:20):
And the Levites, too. Yeah.
S2 (06:21):
And the Levites, they had to, you know, build fires
in the in the altar. They had to clean those out.
It was it was a really active, heavy job.
S1 (06:29):
And at the tent of meeting there was all these
kinds of, uh, sacrifices and things like that and things
being brought out. And it was heavy lifting. And I
think what this is, all it's saying is you're 25
to 50. That's the strength that you're in. You can
do all that work. And then after that you only
get to assist. And that's sort of how I feel
(06:50):
that I'm doing now because we have a wonderful friend
and colleague, Jerry Peterman, who's going on sabbatical. He has
taught the book of Hebrews for, I don't know how
many years now. Several years. And he'll be away and
won't teach it next year. So though I am retired,
(07:13):
guess who's teaching the book of Hebrews in the fall?
I get to assist by teaching the book of Hebrews.
That's great. And that's I. Of course. It's a book
I'd love to teach. And I feel like someone once
asked me, why do you think you should teach the
book of Hebrews? And I said, Because I'm a Hebrew.
S2 (07:27):
Yeah. They asked the Jewish believer, why should you teach?
S1 (07:29):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I spent a lot of time in
that book studying it and teaching it, and I'm glad
to get the chance to do that. So it's not
like I'm fully retired even from education. Right? So and
I think that's maybe an encouragement for anyone out there.
Whatever you're doing, wherever you are, we always get to
serve the Lord. It is incumbent upon us we never
get to step away from service of the king.
S2 (07:51):
Exactly right.
S1 (07:51):
Yeah, that's what I think we're going to do. Uh, hey,
give us a call. The phone number here. (877) 548-3675. And
we're going to talk about your questions about the Bible,
God and the spiritual life. The two Michaels are in
the house taking over from Chris. Chris Fabry. So call
us and stay with us. We're coming up with more
(08:12):
of your questions in just a moment. Welcome back to
Chris Fabry Live. I'm Michael Wright and I always love
it when, uh, Chris says it's Fabry, as in fab.
(08:34):
Fab as in fabulous. Uh, our wife. I don't know
if you've ever heard him say that, but I have.
And when I first went on Open Line, people kept
saying to Moody Radio, well, we like this program, but
we can't say the host's name. What's his name? And
so I started saying it's Michael Riedel. It's sort of
like rye bread farmer in the Dell. And just in
(08:55):
the nick of time. And I was trying to channel
my inner favori when I said things like that. And, uh.
And so in case you're wondering who I am, uh,
Michael Riedel and I am the host of Open Line
on Saturday mornings. I hope you'll join me sometime with
me today. The other Michael Michael Van Laningham, we're taking
your questions. Before we get our first question on the air,
I want to know if you have ever wondered what
(09:18):
it truly means to be guided by the good Shepherd.
Ruth Joe Simons has done a beautiful, illustrated children's book
called Home Is Right Where You Are, and it invites
us on a journey through Psalm 23. Couldn't get a
better place to go, reminding parents and children alike that
no matter where we go or what we face, the
(09:40):
Lord is keeping us close to him. And if you'd
like a copy, we'd like to send you one to
say thank you with a gift of any amount. Just
call (866) 958-6695. Fabry. That's the phone number. Or you can
just go to Chris Borg. And when you give your gift,
make sure to ask for home is right where you are.
(10:02):
And we're going to go to the phones right now.
And Gabriella in Put-in-bay, Ohio. Did I say that right.
Listening on Wvms. Welcome to open line, Gabriella. Open line. Haha.
Welcome to Chris Fabry live. Uh, glad you're listening. How
can we help you today? Are you there, Gabriella? I
(10:25):
don't hear her. We're going to go. We'll find Gabriella,
and we're going to talk to Wayne in Miami, Florida,
listening on Rmbb. Hey, Wayne, welcome to Chris Fabry. This
is Michael, and that's the other Michael. How can we
help you today?
S4 (10:37):
Hey. Are you. It is open line.
S1 (10:40):
It's not open line. Not open line. Chris Fabry.
S4 (10:46):
My New York brother, my New York brother, Michael Randall. Hey.
What's up? Mike? Hey, um, quick question. I was talking
to one of my brothers. Um, and we were. He
studied the scripture pretty good, but I'm a little bit confused.
In first Peter, chapter three, verse, uh, verse 18 and 19,
(11:07):
because I read the Scripture, Jesus said unto the father,
I commend my spirit. But first Peter is saying that
he went out to to the prison and preach to
those who were lost. So what is your take on that? Uh,
I would like to hear Mike with that.
S5 (11:25):
You know, it's too easy to say names, right?
S1 (11:28):
Dolnick and Van Landingham, it's.
S2 (11:29):
Mike, it's Michael and Mike.
S1 (11:30):
How's that? How's that? That's good. Well, this is now
Mike V. Yeah, just, uh, kind of go with your
take on this. I'm not even sure what you think.
I can tell you what I think afterwards.
S2 (11:41):
So, I mean, this is a this. Wayne, thank you
so much for picking. probably the second hardest verse in
all the Bible, so we really appreciate that. That's why
we're here. So, um, Christ died for the sins once
for all, just for the unjust, so that he might
bring us to God, having been put to death in
the flesh, but made alive in the spirit. That's probably
through the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit, um, God the Father,
(12:02):
God the Spirit, God the Son all participated in Jesus's resurrection,
in which that is through the spirit. Also he went
and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison. Who
were those spirits? They were verse 20, once disobedient, when
the patience of God kept waiting in the days of
Noah during the construction of the ark, in which a few,
(12:23):
that is, eight persons were brought safely through the water.
So I think the best understanding is, is that, um, Jesus,
through the person of the Holy Spirit, spoke through Noah
to the people of his day who were antagonistic to
God and to God's purposes by having no build the ark. Arc.
And so in the spirit, Jesus, Jesus preached in the
(12:47):
spirit to through Noah, to the people who were alive
back then, who now in Peter's day are spirits who
are imprisoned.
S1 (12:57):
Awaiting judgment.
S2 (12:58):
Awaiting judgment. And so, you know, it would be like
if I were to say, look, I knew President Trump
when he was ten years old. Well, he wasn't President
Trump when he was ten years old. He is now.
And so the people in Noah's day were people, but
now they are imprisoned spirits awaiting judgment. And it seems
(13:19):
to me that's the point. And it goes on from there.
The parallel is between what happened to Noah and the
antagonistic generation in which he lived, and what was happening
with Peter's recipients of this letter. They were facing condemnation
and persecution from people as well. And so he sets
up this parallel here to indicate what's going on.
S1 (13:38):
That's exactly what I think that this passage is about.
I think that people who related to somehow preaching judgment
to demons that are awaiting, uh, you know, proclamation of
victory and judgment to these demons, I think that misses
there's nothing in there in this context to talk about that.
But it does make sense, because we do have Noah
in the context, you know, where it says, uh, God
(14:00):
patiently waited in the days of Noah. So we have
got Noah in the context. Uh, now, I don't know
if if you studied this with him, but we both
have learned and studied a lot from Wayne Grudem. He
has a wonderful journal article about this, showing how that
there was this whole concept of God preaching through Noah
in that period of time. It was a concept that
(14:21):
was completely understood in the first century, particularly among Jewish believers,
that Peter would have been writing to. So, yeah, I
think that that's what it's about. Uh, now here's the question.
What does it say for us? Uh, what do you think?
S2 (14:34):
Well, it's what I just mentioned. And that is there
were even Noah had people who were are antagonistic to
him because of his obedience to the Lord. Those people
had a chance. They they. Noah preached the spirit, preached
through Noah to those people, and they rejected it. And
they died in the flood as a result. And I
think the idea is for us is that we we
(14:55):
need to understand we're going to be opposed as well.
We're going to face that kind of that kind of difficulty.
But we need to be faithful to the Lord, and
those who are hard on us will be held accountable
to it by the Lord.
S1 (15:07):
And I love it that Noah was brought through the flood.
And this basically says that there's a flood coming upon us.
But what happens if if we trust the Lord? It's
not that that baptism saves us, but the baptism which
symbolizes our new relationship with the Lord. We will be
brought through the flood of persecution, the flood of trouble.
He'll bring us through all that because of our relationship
(15:30):
with him.
S2 (15:31):
That's it.
S1 (15:32):
Yeah. So, yeah, it's a it's a really terrific passage. Uh,
but it is like Mike says, uh, one of the
most challenging verses.
S2 (15:41):
Yeah. It's hard.
S1 (15:42):
Yeah. Does that help you out, Wayne?
S4 (15:44):
Yeah. I was trying to ask you on an open line,
but you didn't. You didn't?
S1 (15:48):
Come on. You know, we ran out of time. I
remember you had the question there, so. Yeah, that's why
I came on this week on Chris Fabry. Because I
knew you'd call. Yeah. God.
S2 (15:56):
Answer Wayne's.
S1 (15:56):
Question. Yeah, I was planning on it. Yeah. That's right. So,
you know, Wayne, when when I was, uh, many years ago,
I was on the preaching team of a congregation out
in the northwest suburbs of Chicago. And the pastor was
preaching through first Peter. And he picked the two toughest
passages in first Peter, and he gave them to me.
S2 (16:16):
Of course he.
S1 (16:16):
Did. And I said, what view do you hold? And
he said, I have no idea. That's why you're preaching.
So that was kind of that was kind of fun. Well,
thank you for asking us. Appreciate it. Uh, we're going
to talk with, uh, Gabriella in Put-in-bay, Ohio. She's back,
I hope, listening on Wvms. Welcome to Chris Fabry. How
can I help you?
S6 (16:36):
Thank you.
S7 (16:37):
So I have a head for all my life this
very serious question. The Bible says that Mary was, you know,
the biological mother of Jesus. Her incarnation made Christ, you know,
our our Savior. Uh, but then they say that she
(16:57):
comes from the lineage of David and Mary does not
come from the lineage of David. The lineage of King
David comes from, um, Joseph. But Joseph was in no way,
shape or form related to the birth of Christ. Mary
was a biological mother, and God was the incarnation of
the spirit in her. So he had nothing to do.
(17:19):
So how can they say that she's a lineage of David?
So please explain to me this conundrum.
S1 (17:25):
Okay, I'll get started then. Mike's going to jump in.
This is Michael. Um, here's the deal. In Luke chapter three,
you have the genealogy from the perspective and the whole
birth narrative is from the perspective of Mary. And if
you compare the the genealogy here in Luke three with
the genealogy in Matthew one, it's clearly a different genealogy,
(17:50):
because from the line of David in Matthew one it
goes through Solomon. This one from the line of David
goes through Nathan, another son. And the question then becomes,
who is this Eli? Uh, it says in verse 23,
as he began his ministry, Jesus was about 30 years
old and was thought to be thought to be the
(18:11):
son of Joseph. And then it says, son of Eli.
And the question is, how can that be? Does doesn't
this sound like it's Joseph's genealogy? It's not likely. That's
referring to Joseph being the son in law of Eli,
because he's married to Mary. So he's the son in
(18:32):
law of Eli. And then the rest of the genealogy
is Mary's genealogy. Would you agree with that?
S2 (18:37):
Yes, I would say ever so slightly differently. It's now
there's some speculation here. We've got to admit that this
is not an easy thing to try to reconcile and
harmonize with. Uh, Luke three and Matthew one. It was
common back in those days that if a man only
had daughters, that very oftentimes the husband of of a
(18:59):
daughter would be adopted into the family of the, the
of his father in law, the, the daughter, her husband
would become the son. And I, I think it's possible
that that this is actually the legal lineage of, uh,
Joseph as the adopted son of Eli. Uh, Mary's.
S1 (19:20):
The son in law.
S2 (19:21):
Yeah, he's the son in law. And so that's why
we have it different. This is the line of Eli.
It's the legal line for Joseph. And in Matthew chapter one,
we have the physical line for Joseph. And also in
Matthew chapter one, we can't say, well, Joseph had nothing
to do with Jesus. Well, because he was he raised Jesus, uh,
(19:42):
in a sense, sort of kind of adopted him, sort of. Um,
Jesus is considered his son. Every bit legally is my my,
my son and my daughter in law fostered and adopted
four children. Guess what? They have last names of Van Laningham.
Even two of them are biracial. They don't really look
like me, but they're Van Laningham and they're legally in
(20:03):
my son's line. Uh, so and that's the case here,
I think, with the with these two genealogies.
S1 (20:09):
I was having a discussion with a rabbi, and I
pointed out that according to Jewish law, the adopted son
of a father has every legal right as a as
a born son or daughter, uh, that it's absolutely the same. Right.
And when I, when I pointed that out, he disagreed.
(20:30):
And I was so happy I had my iPad and
I just pulled up. I just googled it and showed
Jewish law on this and he said, oh yeah, I guess, yeah,
I guess, and that would pertain to the legal right
that Joseph has, because he is a descendant of David
through Solomon, because he adopted the Lord Jesus. Now what
do we what do we see? The Lord Jesus has
(20:52):
the legal right to the throne through Solomon, and then
he's got the physical lineage through Mary in Luke three.
And so he is really the literally the Son of
David that way.
S2 (21:03):
So, Gabriella, I mean, um, both of those genealogies are
traced back to David. Are David's included in both of
the genealogies? We can't really say that that, uh, that
that Mary's genealogy through Eli, uh, doesn't relate to David
because it does.
S1 (21:21):
Yep.
S7 (21:22):
Okay, so this is more like a, a legal, uh,
link that they have and therefore it's acceptable.
S1 (21:29):
Well, there's a legal link from the from Joseph to
the Lord Jesus in Matthew one, but I believe there's
a physical descent through Mary in Luke three. Okay.
S6 (21:42):
Okay.
S7 (21:42):
Well, it's a little bit more clear because I couldn't,
you know, put reconcile those two.
S6 (21:48):
Sure.
S1 (21:49):
Yeah. It's a challenge. You did good though. Thank you
for calling. Appreciate it. Uh, we're going to talk to
Kim in Indianapolis, Indiana, listening on WGN. Welcome. How can
we help you today?
S8 (22:04):
I am so excited to be talking to you guys.
I just love the gift that God has given you
guys and being able to understand. And you're using it
so well to help others. And there's so many times like,
I'm like, I want to call them and I can't
ever call you guys. So I'm excited to be able
to call you now. So, um, where I was studying, um,
just a couple of weeks ago, and it was just
(22:24):
confusing me. And I went to your moody, moody Bible commentary,
and I wasn't getting anything there. But it was about.
S1 (22:31):
Of course, you were getting something there. You just didn't
see it.
S8 (22:35):
Well, I will tell you. I kept saying, God, open
my eyes. I'm not understanding this, you know, open my eyes.
But I really wasn't understanding it because it's about the census.
And I know I tend to be a legalist in,
you know, reading the Bible and taking it, you know,
and saying, oh, but it says this. And so it
says in second Samuel 24 one that the anger of
(22:56):
the Lord burned against Israel, and he caused David to
harm them by taking the census. But then in first
Chronicles 21, one which made more sense to me, Satan
rose up against Israel and caused David to take a
census of the people. And so I'm just a little confused,
because I know in Chronicles they said that, and I
think it was moody. Bible commentary said that the chronicler
(23:17):
was wanting to, you know, he didn't put all of
the things that David did. He wanted to inspire the people, um,
and told a lot of the good things that David
did and kind of left out some of the things
that maybe King David did that wasn't good. So I,
I don't know, I'm just like, I'm going to you
guys explain it to me. I want to I just
want to understand.
S1 (23:35):
Well, let me just say that sometimes, uh, people say
to me, I don't agree with everything in the Moody
Bible commentary. And I will say, neither do I.
S2 (23:44):
Neither do I.
S9 (23:45):
Yeah, yeah, because.
S1 (23:46):
We were working with 30 authors, and if they were
within the realm of acceptability, you know, we weren't going
to change it. Although sometimes Mike and I really wanted to,
but we didn't, and.
S2 (23:56):
Sometimes we did.
S9 (23:57):
And sometimes we did, and they didn't like the authors didn't.
S1 (23:59):
Like it. But here's the thing, uh, where it says
Satan in first Chronicles 21, it lacks the definite article
in Hebrew. Usually when we're talking about Satan, the the
great adversary of God, the enemy of us, the enemy
of our souls, in Hebrew it's hasatan the adversary. This
(24:23):
is the first place that Satan or Satan appears without
the article. And so if I were in the right translation,
it would say an adversary stood up against Israel. And
that fits with what we have in in the previous book.
And in second Samuel, where it's an adversary. But God.
(24:47):
God is the one who tempted him, but he in
the sense of testing him, and that he did this.
He didn't tempt him to evil, but he was testing him.
And he used a foreign adversary, probably an army, to
come against David. And that's what tempted or tested David
to see what he would trust God with.
S2 (25:07):
And it's interesting in in second Samuel 24, at the
end of that episode, it says, Then David spoke to
the Lord when he saw the angel who was striking
down the people and said, behold, it is I who
have sinned, and it is I who have done wrong.
But these sheep, what have they done? Please let your
hand be against me and against my father's house. In
(25:28):
other words, what happens to him is as a result
of his own sin. And it's not necessarily God smiting
him as if he were, as if God were making
him sin.
S1 (25:40):
Yep. Yep. Well thank you. I hope that explains it
a little bit. Kim, we're going to come right back
with more questions straight ahead right here on Chris Fabry live.
Stay with us.
S10 (26:01):
We are going to get you right back to the
two Michaels here on Chris Fabry live. Don't you fear,
but I want to say a word about Cornette before
we continue with the Bible and Christian life questions. Cornette's
ministry is called Pro Abundant Life, and they really mean
that because they are not just for as those in
the culture would say, you're just for the unborn. You're
(26:24):
just for the fetus or the unborn baby. No, they're
for everybody in the equation. More than a million women
celebrated Mother's Day this past Sunday because of the pro
abundant life approach of Carenet. More than a million children
did the same thing. They celebrated their mom's life because
(26:45):
of the work that Carenet has done for decades now.
And if you are a mom and you're listening and
you're saying, I'm kind of struggling, I'm I'm going through
my life. I'm not finding abundance. Well, they want to
help you out with a seven day devotional. It's absolutely free.
Just go to Chris lives. Org and click the link.
(27:08):
You'll receive access to Finding Abundance for moms seven Days
of Encouragement. Again, go to Chris. Org. Click the green
connect link. No matter how chaotic motherhood can feel you
were made for more than just surviving. You were made
to thrive. Click that green net link at Chris dot.
S2 (27:34):
Com.
S1 (27:37):
You know Michael and I, Mike V, Mike Vanlandingham and
I are friends with Chris Faber. We're so grateful that
he became our friend by having us on the program. Right.
S2 (27:45):
It's it's great to work with you guys because you're
working with your buddies.
S1 (27:49):
Yeah, it's so much fun. And, you know, we actually
communicate all month long. He's got a question about this
or that and or he sends I send him a
note saying, hey, help me with this. Or sometimes people
call or write to Moody because they don't like something
I've said on Open Line. And I get the letter. No. Yeah.
And I say, you must have been listening to Chris
Faber because it wasn't me. I always blame him. And
(28:12):
but now the truth of the matter is that we
get to be around. We're on the other side of
the back fence all the time. We're, you know, in
that radio back fence. But we are on the other
side today. We're on Chris's side of the fence. I
think that's kind of fun. Uh, and so I want
to talk about back fence partners with you, you know,
at Chris Fay, relive this whole station, this whole program.
(28:37):
Believe we believe in true community. And it happens when
we share both our joys and our struggles. Like a
family gathered around God's Word. We find hope together every day.
And I find I listen to the podcast. Usually. I
find it encouraging and helpful all the time. And when
you become a back fence partner, your monthly support helps
(28:59):
soothe anxious minds with the comfort of God's presence. Um,
and invites more friends to join the conversation, which would
be great. Become a back fence partner today. I hope
you will sign up online at Chris. Or you can
call 6695. Fabbri that's eight 6695 Fabbri and I always
(29:24):
wonder what people are doing when they say, how do
I type that out? Fabbri. Fabbri eight 6695. Fabbri. Well,
before we go back to the phones, Mike we got
this in the mailbag. Someone anonymously wrote and said, what
do you do with church hurt? How do you get
(29:45):
past it when so much anger is involved? Is it
just best to leave?
S2 (29:52):
It depends. Of course, if a person is by nature
kind of a a super harsh, super critical person and
easily prone to to bitterness, then he probably needs to
work it out in his own heart first and then
with church leadership or whatever. But I would say if
if the church leadership situation is broken enough and it
(30:13):
seems to be beyond repair, then then probably finding a
different church is necessary, but there's a right way and
a wrong way to leave a church. I can I
can leave a church and slander all the people and
gossip about all those terrible leaders and how they've hurt me.
Or I can do the biblical thing and just leave
very quietly. And unfortunately, we we Christians don't understand sins
(30:37):
of the tongue anymore. Gossip and slander and and so
we leave a church that has to be done, I
think in, in a, in a gentle, uh, a more
quiet way.
S1 (30:49):
Now, I think one of the things that happens sometimes
is we we will take a difference of opinion, a
legitimate difference of opinion, and then we will attack the
pastor as somehow he has lost his orthodoxy. He has
now become heterodox, or he's got a moral failure. Or
we'll say that about the leadership. I think that we
(31:11):
have to be really careful not to become so hostile
that we can't see that sometimes there's just differences of opinion.
You know, I came I was a member of a congregation.
I came back and they changed some of the doctrinal
positions while I was away in Israel. I came back
about two weeks later, and I found that some what
(31:33):
I considered important but not essential doctrines were changed. I thought,
what do I do about this? And so I just
called the pastor and I he said, oh, good, I'm
so glad to meet with you because I wanted to
set up when you're going to preach next. And I said, well,
I'm not going to preach next year. I think I
really need to leave this congregation, but I'm going to
(31:55):
leave really well. I just feel like I'm not going
to get angry with you. I believe you acted out
of conviction. You believe that this is the right thing
to do. I just don't feel comfortable with it. And
so I will always support the work you're doing overall
here in this congregation. But I'm going to find a
congregation where I feel a little bit more comfortable. So
after a number of years of being there and even
(32:17):
preaching about every six months, I. I left. But I
never said a negative word. I'm not saying because I
don't think there's anything negative to say. The pastor was
following his convictions on a secondary issue that I thought
was too important for me to just ignore. Uh, and
so that's that's why Eve and I left. We both
felt that way, but we we left with a good
(32:38):
relationship with the pastor. And the reason I say this,
I was really convicted by Genesis 13, when Abraham's shepherds
and lot's shepherds are having conflict. And the way Abraham
resolves it, Abraham says, uh, this ought not to be,
for we are brothers, we're family. And so you go
(33:01):
that way, we'll go this way, choose your way, and
we will still get along. And I think that's the goal.
If there's going to be a separation, to get along
still after you separate.
S2 (33:11):
And so, just to use a cliche, don't burn the
bridges behind you. Just don't.
S1 (33:17):
Yeah. That's it, I think that's. And there, you know,
sometimes we feel hurt because of things in the church.
I think there are times we have to say, well,
you know, I was hurt, but now we're brothers. I'm
going to go a different way and we'll we'll make peace.
S2 (33:31):
And we're going to forgive those people. We make a
choice to forgive those people.
S1 (33:36):
That's it. And forgiveness is a choice. I think that's
really important to do and not bear that bitterness because
it'll it'll eat you up. If we keep the bitterness,
it destroys ourselves. Yeah, yeah. So, okay, uh, we're going
to talk to Jesse in Chicago, listening on our flagship WNBA.
(33:57):
Welcome to Chris Fabry live. Jesse, how can we help
you today?
S11 (34:01):
It's a joy hearing from hearing you both. Michaels, I'd
like to greet you as the apostle with grace and
peace be multiplied upon you both greatly.
S1 (34:10):
Well, thank you.
S2 (34:11):
Thank you very much.
S11 (34:12):
Amen. Amen. Now, now, my question is, is kind of
a two fold. So, uh, just bear with me for
a moment. Now, there's there's a the Bible tells us
that if we believe on the Lord Jesus and confess
our sins and believe that on his death, burial, and
his resurrection, that we shall be saved, can we can
(34:36):
all three of us agree with that? You and other. Michael?
S1 (34:38):
Yeah. Jesse, I'm going to agree with you about that,
but I'm going to just say get to your question.
That's okay. We're not going to do a whole Bible
study on on justification right now. Just just go ahead. Okay. Okay.
S11 (34:50):
So so my question is there's a young man who, uh,
was not saved who married a young lady, and it
was just a horrible relationship. They were both young and naive,
and neither of them knew the Lord. And so he
comes and he says to me, I, you know, I
divorced her, and I've come to know Jesus as a
(35:10):
result of of a hateful, sinful life. And now that
I've come to know Lord, the Lord and Savior, he
says the people told him that he could not be
a pastor. He could not preach at a church. And
because he didn't meet the qualifications because he had been married.
So my question was, is there something that you're not
forgiven for when you receive Christ? And can he preach?
(35:33):
Can he pastor a church? So that's my question.
S1 (35:36):
So, you know, it's not that people are saying he's
not forgiven. It's just people. Look at first Timothy three
where it says the husband of one wife. Now there's
a lot of different views about what that means. I
know a man that when his wife died and he remarried,
he stepped down as a pastor because he now had
two wives. I don't think he was doing the right
thing there. But so it's obviously not necessarily you can
(36:00):
only have one wife I take I would love to
hear what Mike V says. I take what I call
the country western view of this verse where it says
the husband of one wife. I think it means a
one woman man, that if someone shows faithfulness over a
long amount of time, that they are qualified for eldership.
What do you think?
S2 (36:21):
I agree, I think, um, if if, let's say a
man is involved in an immoral relationship as a believer
or as an unbeliever especially, let's start with unbeliever. Um, and,
and then comes to Christ, uh, his first wife, let's say, remarries.
He remarries. I don't see any reason over time, as
(36:42):
he proves himself to be a one woman man, he's
now faithful to his current wife. I don't see any
reason why he could not be, uh, an elder down
the road. A lot of people would disagree with that.
S1 (36:53):
There are people who disagree.
S2 (36:54):
Yeah, but but it seems to me that, um, it's
an undue restriction to say he can never be a
pastor again.
S1 (37:01):
And various congregations have different views. Jesse. That's my view. Uh,
one of the. When I was a pastor, one of
the best elders I ever had in my congregation had
had been divorced when he became a follower of Jesus.
His wife left him. Yeah, she just didn't want to
be married to a believer. And then about 2 or
(37:23):
3 years later, he got married again. And over 12 years.
At that point, when he became an elder, he had
proven himself to be a very faithful, godly husband. And
he turned out to be a fantastic elder.
S2 (37:34):
And I had an elder almost exactly like that. Same situation,
exactly the same situation. He was a great elder, absolutely qualified.
S1 (37:43):
So yeah, so it just depends on the congregation. And
so you can encourage him to find a congregation that
has maybe a different perspective. Okay. Jessie.
S6 (37:51):
Okay. Thank you. Thank you both.
S1 (37:52):
Yeah, yeah. Uh, well, we're going to come back with
more of your questions in just a moment. You're listening
to the two Michaels takeover of Chris Fabry live. Uh,
we're hoping that they let Chris back after they. I
think they will, actually. I think they think about it. Yeah,
but we're going to be back with more of your
questions about the Bible, God and the spiritual life. So
stay with us. This is Chris Fabry live on Moody Radio.
(38:26):
While we're back here, the two Michaels are in the
house on Chris Fabry Live taking over for Chris today.
Chris is traveling today, but he'll be back. Don't worry,
you don't have to worry about us being back tomorrow.
We won't be, but he will. Uh, glad to be
with you right here on Chris Fabry live. Did I
get that right? Tricia, is will he be back tomorrow? Tuesday. Uh,
(38:49):
but you'll hear live on Tuesday. That's it. He'll be
live on Tuesday, but he will be on the air tomorrow.
That'll be great fun. Uh, well, uh, we want to
go right back to the phones, see what how many
questions we can answer. Uh, right now, we're doing our
best to talk to Estelle in Schaumburg, Illinois. Also listening
on Wmbi, our flagship station here across the Moody Network. Hey, Estelle,
(39:14):
welcome to Chris Fabry live. How can we help you?
S6 (39:16):
Hi. Uh, thank you all for taking my call. I
was calling because my grandson, who is like almost 30,
we had a disagreement, which I thought I was doing
it right, but the question was about, uh, the, uh,
scripture in Luke 1825 about the camel's eye of a needle. Mhm. And, uh,
(39:41):
I was trying to explain it to him and he
felt he, he did not understand what I was saying. I,
I said to him the scripture about it and he
said why would God leave something like that untold.
S1 (39:56):
So what was his question about it.
S6 (39:59):
It was uh, uh, he brought up the corset on
the eye of the needle. Okay. Yeah, the eye of
the needle.
S1 (40:07):
Okay, so here's what it says in that verse. It says, uh,
seeing that he became sad, this is the rich young ruler.
It says, Jesus said, how hard is it, how hard
it is for those who have wealth to enter the
kingdom of God. For it is easier for a camel
to go through the eye of a needle than for
a rich person to enter the kingdom of God. Now
(40:30):
that is just an observation. Um, in my opinion, not
a it is a description, not a prescription from God.
It's not like God says, if you're rich, I don't
want you. Uh, he's describing, uh, this, this condition of,
of wealthy people. So often they are more tied to
their wealth, and they're not willing to give their all
(40:53):
to the Lord. I think that sometimes they depend on
their wealth. They think I don't need God. I got
my wealth. What?
S2 (41:00):
It's hard to trust God if you've got a, well,
feathered nest. Yeah, I've heard that. And I think that
that's Jesus's point here, you know. Um, so it really
the idea really is, is that it's virtually impossible for
a rich man to get into heaven. We got to
we got to say one thing more after that. As
if a camel could go through the eye of a needle.
It actually means eye of a needle, and it actually
(41:20):
means a camel. Well, you can't do that. But notice
in the next verse it says the things that are
impossible with people are possible with God. In other words,
it's God who provides us, who brings us to the
point of true salvation. He can do that with a
rich person or a poor person, but on their own, uh,
rich or poor, you're not going to you're not going
(41:41):
to get there. It's impossible.
S1 (41:42):
Now, I think that that was obviously a fabulous reality
that the Lord gave there. I was telling Mike V
when I saw your question on the screen on the break,
I was, I said many, many years ago, I read
a book by Elton Trueblood called The Humor of Christ.
And and he cited this verse. He said, This is
just a funny statement that the Lord is making. It's true.
(42:04):
It's hard for a rich man who's depending on his
wealth to submit himself and turn his life over to
the Lord and trust God. I think that that's true,
but he used that funny analogy, uh, to, to communicate that.
And but I was reading something yesterday in my quiet time.
I was reading Proverbs 30, and this is one of
(42:25):
my favorite verses. It says two things I ask of you.
Verse seven don't deny them to me before I die.
Keep falsehood and deceitful words far from me. Oh God,
keep me an honest person. And then he says, second
thing he's asking give me neither poverty nor wealth. Feed
me with the food I need. Otherwise I might have
(42:47):
too much and deny you saying, who is the Lord?
Or I might have nothing and steal profaning the name
of my God. So wealth or poverty? Either way, it
could make us turn from the Lord. And and I
think in this verse, when it talks about the rich man, it's,
it's showing that, yeah, you could somehow some somehow forget
(43:10):
God and think you don't need him. Right. That's it.
So I hope that helps. Estelle. Uh, and if it doesn't,
you can tell your grandson to listen in the podcast
or online or something like that. Or he can call
us himself sometime, I hope. Uh, anytime on Saturday or
next time. We're on Chris Faber next month. So, anyway,
thanks for your call, Estelle. Uh, we're going to talk
(43:30):
to Del in Muncie, Indiana, listening on WGN. Welcome to
to to Chris Fabry live. Uh, uh, glad you're with us.
How can we help you today?
S12 (43:42):
Okay. Real quick. I've got a friend, pastor friend of
mine who, uh, wants to spiritualize everything about the end times.
Believe that the millennial kingdom has already happened, that, uh,
Satan has been thrown into the lake of fire, and
(44:03):
end times is all done and over with. I don't
understand it. I don't see it. I'm pretty much myself
believing they are most common end times prophecies.
S2 (44:20):
So I have to say, um, here, Dale, if this
is the Millennial Kingdom, or if this is the kingdom
of God and Satan is bound right now, I want
my money back. Sorry, I just do. I think if
Satan is bound, there's going to be conditions radically different
from how we see them now. In addition, I want
(44:40):
to propose that while the death of Christ is supremely
important and sets him up for the final victory over
all the spiritual forces, uh, there are some implications here.
It says, for example, in Hebrews chapter two verse five says, he,
God did not subject to angels, the world to come.
(45:01):
But then in verse eight, in Hebrews chapter two, he says.
For in subjecting all things to him, to Jesus, he
God left nothing that is not subjected to him. But
now we are. Now we do not yet see all
things subjected to him. This is for the world to come.
And we're not in the world to come yet. That's
(45:23):
going to be the Millennial Kingdom. Uh, that's still future.
S1 (45:26):
Yeah. I was thinking about Isaiah 6525, where the wolf
and the lamb will feed together and the lion will
eat straw like the ox. Well, I just don't see
that happening today. I think they're still predatory animals as
well as predatory nations and people making war. I don't
believe we're there yet. But one day we will be.
(45:47):
And I think that's the great hope we have. The
Lord Jesus will return and he will establish his kingdom.
S2 (45:52):
And we will know it.
S1 (45:54):
Yeah, it'll be pretty clear.
S13 (45:55):
Pretty clear.
S1 (45:56):
Yeah. He'll be reigning from Jerusalem. I don't think there'll
be any question about. Are we in the kingdom? The
King will be present. He'll be reigning over us. And
it's something I look forward to. I hope you are too. And, uh. Well,
I hope your friend also, uh, starts looking forward to that. Well,
thank you, Mike, for joining me here on Chris Fabry Live.
S13 (46:15):
Yeah, this is great.
S1 (46:16):
Yeah. I'm so glad you made the trek. We're here
in studio together, looking at each other face to face. Uh,
just like we will the Lord. Uh, in the messianic kingdom,
we'll be face to face. But, uh, my name is
Michael Riedel. I'm so glad that I got to be
here with you today. I hope you'll join me next
Saturday on Open Line. When we talk about your questions
about the Bible. And we'll be back in about a
(46:36):
month on Chris Fabry live. Chris will be back tomorrow
and on Tuesday live. Glad you listened in today. Keep
listening to Chris Fabry live. We'll be right back. Chris
Fabry Live is a production of Moody Radio, a ministry
of Moody Bible Institute.
Hello friends. Welcome to Chris Fabry Live, and I hope
you can tell already that I am not Chris Fabry.
So the why are we calling it Chris Fabry live?
Because that's the name of the program. But I am
sitting in for Chris today. My name is Michael Redlich.
You may know me from the two Michaels, but I
am here. I'm the academic dean and vice and professor
(00:28):
of Jewish Studies here at Moody Bible Institute, and I'm
so glad to be sitting in for Chris today. It's
so exciting. We're talking about the scriptures today. We're talking
about your spiritual life and your questions about it. Uh,
it's one of those special two Michaels days, and I'm
so grateful to be here with you for our time together.
Let me give you the phone number. Right off the bat,
(00:49):
off the bat, right out the gate. 8775483. 675. That's 5483675.
If you have a question about the Bible, about God,
about the spiritual life or anything like that, give us
(01:09):
a call today. (877) 548-3675. It's going to be a fun
time as we dive into the scriptures together today. And now.
My guest with me, I guess we're both guests today. Uh,
is Doctor Michael Van Laningham. He is a retired professor
(01:34):
from Moody Bible Institute, retired pastor from Harvest Bible Chapel. Uh,
my collaborator with me is co-editor. We work together on
the Moody Bible Commentary for about 25 years of our life.
Seemed like it, and now joins me every month with
Chris right here on Chris Fabry Live with the two
(01:55):
Michaels section. Hey, Michael, how are you doing here?
S2 (01:58):
How are we doing today, chief?
S1 (01:59):
Yeah. There's no voice in between us now. We have
to do it all.
S2 (02:02):
We do, we do. How are we going to do that?
You can do it. You can do.
S1 (02:06):
It. We can handle it. But the question is, will
they let Fabbri back?
S2 (02:09):
Um, we're going to do so. Well, they will not need.
S1 (02:12):
It'll become the two Michaels. That's right. Alive. That's what we're. No, no,
I don't think so. Hey, uh, so, you know, I
introduced you as retired professor from Moody Bible Institute. Retired pastor. Right?
S2 (02:24):
Yep.
S1 (02:24):
Uh, I'm tired of saying that, but I, too, are
moving into partial retirement. Uh, June 30th, I will retire
from education. Not from working. Uh, not from the kingdom,
but retire from education. I'm stepping away from being Dean,
(02:45):
stepping away from full time in the classroom, going to
teach one course in the fall, but mainly going to
focus on radio. Uh, so I'm not really fully retired,
but that's it. But. So people have asked me, how
can you retire? I thought that there's no biblical concept
of retirement. And we were just talking about that.
S2 (03:05):
We were. And, uh, at least in the New Testament,
I don't think there is. And unfortunately, I, uh, I've
preached on a number of occasions, there's no such thing
as retirement, you know, and, um, then I got laid
off at Moody. It's okay, it's okay. And I worked
for Harvest Bible.
S1 (03:23):
Church for so long that it functioned as a retirement,
even though that was not.
S2 (03:27):
Yeah. I mean, they consider me retired. Yeah. And I
worked worked at Harvest Bible Chapel and then I got
laid off there and it's okay. It's okay. Nobody wanted
to hire a 66 year old Bible professor or pastor.
Go figure. And so we could retire. So I did,
and I'm plenty busy at church still. Really?
S1 (03:46):
You're on the elder board of the church that that
you retired from?
S2 (03:49):
I'm on the elder board. I'm preaching twice at harvest
this month and at another place also, um, in a week,
so I'm busy from that standpoint also. It's been really great.
I really enjoy it.
S1 (04:00):
Yeah. And, uh, you're you're you're younger, much, much younger
looking wife. Uh, she too has, uh, officially retired.
S2 (04:09):
Yeah. It's been a couple of years now. She was
22 years as bookkeeper at Emmanuel Church in Gurnee, and
she has stepped down. So we are together now doing
all kinds of fun things.
S1 (04:20):
Yeah, we're getting up at 430 and walk in the neighborhood, right?
S2 (04:22):
Yeah. We're retired. We don't have to get up that
early anymore, but we still walk a lot.
S1 (04:26):
We do now. Uh, Eva won't let me use the
word retired. I can only say it because she's not here.
My wife, she's like, you're not retired. She won't let me.
She wants me to work, right? Because otherwise I'll be
around too much. It'll be really annoying. So, uh, but
the the point that she had is that you don't
really get to retire. I'm changing my focus from education,
(04:49):
but I don't think we can retire from the kingdom
or from service of the King I.
S2 (04:55):
To me, it seems like if we decide that we're
going to retire and put our feet up and sit
by a pool and do nothing the rest of our lives,
or just indulge ourselves with travel and all kinds of
other things. And we're not involved in any kind of ministry.
Surely that's not right. No. So there's got to be
balance in there, at the very least.
S1 (05:12):
Now, someone called me on Open line, which is where I.
On Saturdays I answer Bible questions and I said, there's
no such thing as retirement in the Bible. And of course,
another caller called up right away and pointed out a
passage to me, and I thought we should talk about it.
It's numbers eight, verse 23 through 26. I'm going to
(05:33):
read it. The Lord spoke to Moses. In regard to
the Levites from 25 years old or more, a man
enters the service in the work at the tent of meeting.
But at 50 years old, he is to retire from
his service in the work and no longer serve. Irv.
He may assist his brothers to fulfill responsibilities at the
(05:56):
Tent of Meeting, but he must not do the work.
This is how you are to deal with the Levites
regarding their duties, and I thought it's not quite a
full retirement, is it?
S2 (06:10):
No. Um, I mean, Michael's going to comment more on this,
but to be a priest was a huge amount of work. Um,
I mean, they had to.
S3 (06:20):
And the Levites, too. Yeah.
S2 (06:21):
And the Levites, they had to, you know, build fires
in the in the altar. They had to clean those out.
It was it was a really active, heavy job.
S1 (06:29):
And at the tent of meeting there was all these
kinds of, uh, sacrifices and things like that and things
being brought out. And it was heavy lifting. And I
think what this is, all it's saying is you're 25
to 50. That's the strength that you're in. You can
do all that work. And then after that you only
get to assist. And that's sort of how I feel
(06:50):
that I'm doing now because we have a wonderful friend
and colleague, Jerry Peterman, who's going on sabbatical. He has
taught the book of Hebrews for, I don't know how
many years now. Several years. And he'll be away and
won't teach it next year. So though I am retired,
(07:13):
guess who's teaching the book of Hebrews in the fall?
I get to assist by teaching the book of Hebrews.
That's great. And that's I. Of course. It's a book
I'd love to teach. And I feel like someone once
asked me, why do you think you should teach the
book of Hebrews? And I said, Because I'm a Hebrew.
S2 (07:27):
Yeah. They asked the Jewish believer, why should you teach?
S1 (07:29):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I spent a lot of time in
that book studying it and teaching it, and I'm glad
to get the chance to do that. So it's not
like I'm fully retired even from education. Right? So and
I think that's maybe an encouragement for anyone out there.
Whatever you're doing, wherever you are, we always get to
serve the Lord. It is incumbent upon us we never
get to step away from service of the king.
S2 (07:51):
Exactly right.
S1 (07:51):
Yeah, that's what I think we're going to do. Uh, hey,
give us a call. The phone number here. (877) 548-3675. And
we're going to talk about your questions about the Bible,
God and the spiritual life. The two Michaels are in
the house taking over from Chris. Chris Fabry. So call
us and stay with us. We're coming up with more
(08:12):
of your questions in just a moment. Welcome back to
Chris Fabry Live. I'm Michael Wright and I always love
it when, uh, Chris says it's Fabry, as in fab.
(08:34):
Fab as in fabulous. Uh, our wife. I don't know
if you've ever heard him say that, but I have.
And when I first went on Open Line, people kept
saying to Moody Radio, well, we like this program, but
we can't say the host's name. What's his name? And
so I started saying it's Michael Riedel. It's sort of
like rye bread farmer in the Dell. And just in
(08:55):
the nick of time. And I was trying to channel
my inner favori when I said things like that. And, uh.
And so in case you're wondering who I am, uh,
Michael Riedel and I am the host of Open Line
on Saturday mornings. I hope you'll join me sometime with
me today. The other Michael Michael Van Laningham, we're taking
your questions. Before we get our first question on the air,
I want to know if you have ever wondered what
(09:18):
it truly means to be guided by the good Shepherd.
Ruth Joe Simons has done a beautiful, illustrated children's book
called Home Is Right Where You Are, and it invites
us on a journey through Psalm 23. Couldn't get a
better place to go, reminding parents and children alike that
no matter where we go or what we face, the
(09:40):
Lord is keeping us close to him. And if you'd
like a copy, we'd like to send you one to
say thank you with a gift of any amount. Just
call (866) 958-6695. Fabry. That's the phone number. Or you can
just go to Chris Borg. And when you give your gift,
make sure to ask for home is right where you are.
(10:02):
And we're going to go to the phones right now.
And Gabriella in Put-in-bay, Ohio. Did I say that right.
Listening on Wvms. Welcome to open line, Gabriella. Open line. Haha.
Welcome to Chris Fabry live. Uh, glad you're listening. How
can we help you today? Are you there, Gabriella? I
(10:25):
don't hear her. We're going to go. We'll find Gabriella,
and we're going to talk to Wayne in Miami, Florida,
listening on Rmbb. Hey, Wayne, welcome to Chris Fabry. This
is Michael, and that's the other Michael. How can we
help you today?
S4 (10:37):
Hey. Are you. It is open line.
S1 (10:40):
It's not open line. Not open line. Chris Fabry.
S4 (10:46):
My New York brother, my New York brother, Michael Randall. Hey.
What's up? Mike? Hey, um, quick question. I was talking
to one of my brothers. Um, and we were. He
studied the scripture pretty good, but I'm a little bit confused.
In first Peter, chapter three, verse, uh, verse 18 and 19,
(11:07):
because I read the Scripture, Jesus said unto the father,
I commend my spirit. But first Peter is saying that
he went out to to the prison and preach to
those who were lost. So what is your take on that? Uh,
I would like to hear Mike with that.
S5 (11:25):
You know, it's too easy to say names, right?
S1 (11:28):
Dolnick and Van Landingham, it's.
S2 (11:29):
Mike, it's Michael and Mike.
S1 (11:30):
How's that? How's that? That's good. Well, this is now
Mike V. Yeah, just, uh, kind of go with your
take on this. I'm not even sure what you think.
I can tell you what I think afterwards.
S2 (11:41):
So, I mean, this is a this. Wayne, thank you
so much for picking. probably the second hardest verse in
all the Bible, so we really appreciate that. That's why
we're here. So, um, Christ died for the sins once
for all, just for the unjust, so that he might
bring us to God, having been put to death in
the flesh, but made alive in the spirit. That's probably
through the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit, um, God the Father,
(12:02):
God the Spirit, God the Son all participated in Jesus's resurrection,
in which that is through the spirit. Also he went
and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison. Who
were those spirits? They were verse 20, once disobedient, when
the patience of God kept waiting in the days of
Noah during the construction of the ark, in which a few,
(12:23):
that is, eight persons were brought safely through the water.
So I think the best understanding is, is that, um, Jesus,
through the person of the Holy Spirit, spoke through Noah
to the people of his day who were antagonistic to
God and to God's purposes by having no build the ark. Arc.
And so in the spirit, Jesus, Jesus preached in the
(12:47):
spirit to through Noah, to the people who were alive
back then, who now in Peter's day are spirits who
are imprisoned.
S1 (12:57):
Awaiting judgment.
S2 (12:58):
Awaiting judgment. And so, you know, it would be like
if I were to say, look, I knew President Trump
when he was ten years old. Well, he wasn't President
Trump when he was ten years old. He is now.
And so the people in Noah's day were people, but
now they are imprisoned spirits awaiting judgment. And it seems
(13:19):
to me that's the point. And it goes on from there.
The parallel is between what happened to Noah and the
antagonistic generation in which he lived, and what was happening
with Peter's recipients of this letter. They were facing condemnation
and persecution from people as well. And so he sets
up this parallel here to indicate what's going on.
S1 (13:38):
That's exactly what I think that this passage is about.
I think that people who related to somehow preaching judgment
to demons that are awaiting, uh, you know, proclamation of
victory and judgment to these demons, I think that misses
there's nothing in there in this context to talk about that.
But it does make sense, because we do have Noah
in the context, you know, where it says, uh, God
(14:00):
patiently waited in the days of Noah. So we have
got Noah in the context. Uh, now, I don't know
if if you studied this with him, but we both
have learned and studied a lot from Wayne Grudem. He
has a wonderful journal article about this, showing how that
there was this whole concept of God preaching through Noah
in that period of time. It was a concept that
(14:21):
was completely understood in the first century, particularly among Jewish believers,
that Peter would have been writing to. So, yeah, I
think that that's what it's about. Uh, now here's the question.
What does it say for us? Uh, what do you think?
S2 (14:34):
Well, it's what I just mentioned. And that is there
were even Noah had people who were are antagonistic to
him because of his obedience to the Lord. Those people
had a chance. They they. Noah preached the spirit, preached
through Noah to those people, and they rejected it. And
they died in the flood as a result. And I
think the idea is for us is that we we
(14:55):
need to understand we're going to be opposed as well.
We're going to face that kind of that kind of difficulty.
But we need to be faithful to the Lord, and
those who are hard on us will be held accountable
to it by the Lord.
S1 (15:07):
And I love it that Noah was brought through the flood.
And this basically says that there's a flood coming upon us.
But what happens if if we trust the Lord? It's
not that that baptism saves us, but the baptism which
symbolizes our new relationship with the Lord. We will be
brought through the flood of persecution, the flood of trouble.
He'll bring us through all that because of our relationship
(15:30):
with him.
S2 (15:31):
That's it.
S1 (15:32):
Yeah. So, yeah, it's a it's a really terrific passage. Uh,
but it is like Mike says, uh, one of the
most challenging verses.
S2 (15:41):
Yeah. It's hard.
S1 (15:42):
Yeah. Does that help you out, Wayne?
S4 (15:44):
Yeah. I was trying to ask you on an open line,
but you didn't. You didn't?
S1 (15:48):
Come on. You know, we ran out of time. I
remember you had the question there, so. Yeah, that's why
I came on this week on Chris Fabry. Because I
knew you'd call. Yeah. God.
S2 (15:56):
Answer Wayne's.
S1 (15:56):
Question. Yeah, I was planning on it. Yeah. That's right. So,
you know, Wayne, when when I was, uh, many years ago,
I was on the preaching team of a congregation out
in the northwest suburbs of Chicago. And the pastor was
preaching through first Peter. And he picked the two toughest
passages in first Peter, and he gave them to me.
S2 (16:16):
Of course he.
S1 (16:16):
Did. And I said, what view do you hold? And
he said, I have no idea. That's why you're preaching.
So that was kind of that was kind of fun. Well,
thank you for asking us. Appreciate it. Uh, we're going
to talk with, uh, Gabriella in Put-in-bay, Ohio. She's back,
I hope, listening on Wvms. Welcome to Chris Fabry. How
can I help you?
S6 (16:36):
Thank you.
S7 (16:37):
So I have a head for all my life this
very serious question. The Bible says that Mary was, you know,
the biological mother of Jesus. Her incarnation made Christ, you know,
our our Savior. Uh, but then they say that she
(16:57):
comes from the lineage of David and Mary does not
come from the lineage of David. The lineage of King
David comes from, um, Joseph. But Joseph was in no way,
shape or form related to the birth of Christ. Mary
was a biological mother, and God was the incarnation of
the spirit in her. So he had nothing to do.
(17:19):
So how can they say that she's a lineage of David?
So please explain to me this conundrum.
S1 (17:25):
Okay, I'll get started then. Mike's going to jump in.
This is Michael. Um, here's the deal. In Luke chapter three,
you have the genealogy from the perspective and the whole
birth narrative is from the perspective of Mary. And if
you compare the the genealogy here in Luke three with
the genealogy in Matthew one, it's clearly a different genealogy,
(17:50):
because from the line of David in Matthew one it
goes through Solomon. This one from the line of David
goes through Nathan, another son. And the question then becomes,
who is this Eli? Uh, it says in verse 23,
as he began his ministry, Jesus was about 30 years
old and was thought to be thought to be the
(18:11):
son of Joseph. And then it says, son of Eli.
And the question is, how can that be? Does doesn't
this sound like it's Joseph's genealogy? It's not likely. That's
referring to Joseph being the son in law of Eli,
because he's married to Mary. So he's the son in
(18:32):
law of Eli. And then the rest of the genealogy
is Mary's genealogy. Would you agree with that?
S2 (18:37):
Yes, I would say ever so slightly differently. It's now
there's some speculation here. We've got to admit that this
is not an easy thing to try to reconcile and
harmonize with. Uh, Luke three and Matthew one. It was
common back in those days that if a man only
had daughters, that very oftentimes the husband of of a
(18:59):
daughter would be adopted into the family of the, the
of his father in law, the, the daughter, her husband
would become the son. And I, I think it's possible
that that this is actually the legal lineage of, uh,
Joseph as the adopted son of Eli. Uh, Mary's.
S1 (19:20):
The son in law.
S2 (19:21):
Yeah, he's the son in law. And so that's why
we have it different. This is the line of Eli.
It's the legal line for Joseph. And in Matthew chapter one,
we have the physical line for Joseph. And also in
Matthew chapter one, we can't say, well, Joseph had nothing
to do with Jesus. Well, because he was he raised Jesus, uh,
(19:42):
in a sense, sort of kind of adopted him, sort of. Um,
Jesus is considered his son. Every bit legally is my my,
my son and my daughter in law fostered and adopted
four children. Guess what? They have last names of Van Laningham.
Even two of them are biracial. They don't really look
like me, but they're Van Laningham and they're legally in
(20:03):
my son's line. Uh, so and that's the case here,
I think, with the with these two genealogies.
S1 (20:09):
I was having a discussion with a rabbi, and I
pointed out that according to Jewish law, the adopted son
of a father has every legal right as a as
a born son or daughter, uh, that it's absolutely the same. Right.
And when I, when I pointed that out, he disagreed.
(20:30):
And I was so happy I had my iPad and
I just pulled up. I just googled it and showed
Jewish law on this and he said, oh yeah, I guess, yeah,
I guess, and that would pertain to the legal right
that Joseph has, because he is a descendant of David
through Solomon, because he adopted the Lord Jesus. Now what
do we what do we see? The Lord Jesus has
(20:52):
the legal right to the throne through Solomon, and then
he's got the physical lineage through Mary in Luke three.
And so he is really the literally the Son of
David that way.
S2 (21:03):
So, Gabriella, I mean, um, both of those genealogies are
traced back to David. Are David's included in both of
the genealogies? We can't really say that that, uh, that
that Mary's genealogy through Eli, uh, doesn't relate to David
because it does.
S1 (21:21):
Yep.
S7 (21:22):
Okay, so this is more like a, a legal, uh,
link that they have and therefore it's acceptable.
S1 (21:29):
Well, there's a legal link from the from Joseph to
the Lord Jesus in Matthew one, but I believe there's
a physical descent through Mary in Luke three. Okay.
S6 (21:42):
Okay.
S7 (21:42):
Well, it's a little bit more clear because I couldn't,
you know, put reconcile those two.
S6 (21:48):
Sure.
S1 (21:49):
Yeah. It's a challenge. You did good though. Thank you
for calling. Appreciate it. Uh, we're going to talk to
Kim in Indianapolis, Indiana, listening on WGN. Welcome. How can
we help you today?
S8 (22:04):
I am so excited to be talking to you guys.
I just love the gift that God has given you
guys and being able to understand. And you're using it
so well to help others. And there's so many times like,
I'm like, I want to call them and I can't
ever call you guys. So I'm excited to be able
to call you now. So, um, where I was studying, um,
just a couple of weeks ago, and it was just
(22:24):
confusing me. And I went to your moody, moody Bible commentary,
and I wasn't getting anything there. But it was about.
S1 (22:31):
Of course, you were getting something there. You just didn't
see it.
S8 (22:35):
Well, I will tell you. I kept saying, God, open
my eyes. I'm not understanding this, you know, open my eyes.
But I really wasn't understanding it because it's about the census.
And I know I tend to be a legalist in,
you know, reading the Bible and taking it, you know,
and saying, oh, but it says this. And so it
says in second Samuel 24 one that the anger of
(22:56):
the Lord burned against Israel, and he caused David to
harm them by taking the census. But then in first
Chronicles 21, one which made more sense to me, Satan
rose up against Israel and caused David to take a
census of the people. And so I'm just a little confused,
because I know in Chronicles they said that, and I
think it was moody. Bible commentary said that the chronicler
(23:17):
was wanting to, you know, he didn't put all of
the things that David did. He wanted to inspire the people, um,
and told a lot of the good things that David
did and kind of left out some of the things
that maybe King David did that wasn't good. So I,
I don't know, I'm just like, I'm going to you
guys explain it to me. I want to I just
want to understand.
S1 (23:35):
Well, let me just say that sometimes, uh, people say
to me, I don't agree with everything in the Moody
Bible commentary. And I will say, neither do I.
S2 (23:44):
Neither do I.
S9 (23:45):
Yeah, yeah, because.
S1 (23:46):
We were working with 30 authors, and if they were
within the realm of acceptability, you know, we weren't going
to change it. Although sometimes Mike and I really wanted to,
but we didn't, and.
S2 (23:56):
Sometimes we did.
S9 (23:57):
And sometimes we did, and they didn't like the authors didn't.
S1 (23:59):
Like it. But here's the thing, uh, where it says
Satan in first Chronicles 21, it lacks the definite article
in Hebrew. Usually when we're talking about Satan, the the
great adversary of God, the enemy of us, the enemy
of our souls, in Hebrew it's hasatan the adversary. This
(24:23):
is the first place that Satan or Satan appears without
the article. And so if I were in the right translation,
it would say an adversary stood up against Israel. And
that fits with what we have in in the previous book.
And in second Samuel, where it's an adversary. But God.
(24:47):
God is the one who tempted him, but he in
the sense of testing him, and that he did this.
He didn't tempt him to evil, but he was testing him.
And he used a foreign adversary, probably an army, to
come against David. And that's what tempted or tested David
to see what he would trust God with.
S2 (25:07):
And it's interesting in in second Samuel 24, at the
end of that episode, it says, Then David spoke to
the Lord when he saw the angel who was striking
down the people and said, behold, it is I who
have sinned, and it is I who have done wrong.
But these sheep, what have they done? Please let your
hand be against me and against my father's house. In
(25:28):
other words, what happens to him is as a result
of his own sin. And it's not necessarily God smiting
him as if he were, as if God were making
him sin.
S1 (25:40):
Yep. Yep. Well thank you. I hope that explains it
a little bit. Kim, we're going to come right back
with more questions straight ahead right here on Chris Fabry live.
Stay with us.
S10 (26:01):
We are going to get you right back to the
two Michaels here on Chris Fabry live. Don't you fear,
but I want to say a word about Cornette before
we continue with the Bible and Christian life questions. Cornette's
ministry is called Pro Abundant Life, and they really mean
that because they are not just for as those in
the culture would say, you're just for the unborn. You're
(26:24):
just for the fetus or the unborn baby. No, they're
for everybody in the equation. More than a million women
celebrated Mother's Day this past Sunday because of the pro
abundant life approach of Carenet. More than a million children
did the same thing. They celebrated their mom's life because
(26:45):
of the work that Carenet has done for decades now.
And if you are a mom and you're listening and
you're saying, I'm kind of struggling, I'm I'm going through
my life. I'm not finding abundance. Well, they want to
help you out with a seven day devotional. It's absolutely free.
Just go to Chris lives. Org and click the link.
(27:08):
You'll receive access to Finding Abundance for moms seven Days
of Encouragement. Again, go to Chris. Org. Click the green
connect link. No matter how chaotic motherhood can feel you
were made for more than just surviving. You were made
to thrive. Click that green net link at Chris dot.
S2 (27:34):
Com.
S1 (27:37):
You know Michael and I, Mike V, Mike Vanlandingham and
I are friends with Chris Faber. We're so grateful that
he became our friend by having us on the program. Right.
S2 (27:45):
It's it's great to work with you guys because you're
working with your buddies.
S1 (27:49):
Yeah, it's so much fun. And, you know, we actually
communicate all month long. He's got a question about this
or that and or he sends I send him a
note saying, hey, help me with this. Or sometimes people
call or write to Moody because they don't like something
I've said on Open Line. And I get the letter. No. Yeah.
And I say, you must have been listening to Chris
Faber because it wasn't me. I always blame him. And
(28:12):
but now the truth of the matter is that we
get to be around. We're on the other side of
the back fence all the time. We're, you know, in
that radio back fence. But we are on the other
side today. We're on Chris's side of the fence. I
think that's kind of fun. Uh, and so I want
to talk about back fence partners with you, you know,
at Chris Fay, relive this whole station, this whole program.
(28:37):
Believe we believe in true community. And it happens when
we share both our joys and our struggles. Like a
family gathered around God's Word. We find hope together every day.
And I find I listen to the podcast. Usually. I
find it encouraging and helpful all the time. And when
you become a back fence partner, your monthly support helps
(28:59):
soothe anxious minds with the comfort of God's presence. Um,
and invites more friends to join the conversation, which would
be great. Become a back fence partner today. I hope
you will sign up online at Chris. Or you can
call 6695. Fabbri that's eight 6695 Fabbri and I always
(29:24):
wonder what people are doing when they say, how do
I type that out? Fabbri. Fabbri eight 6695. Fabbri. Well,
before we go back to the phones, Mike we got
this in the mailbag. Someone anonymously wrote and said, what
do you do with church hurt? How do you get
(29:45):
past it when so much anger is involved? Is it
just best to leave?
S2 (29:52):
It depends. Of course, if a person is by nature
kind of a a super harsh, super critical person and
easily prone to to bitterness, then he probably needs to
work it out in his own heart first and then
with church leadership or whatever. But I would say if
if the church leadership situation is broken enough and it
(30:13):
seems to be beyond repair, then then probably finding a
different church is necessary, but there's a right way and
a wrong way to leave a church. I can I
can leave a church and slander all the people and
gossip about all those terrible leaders and how they've hurt me.
Or I can do the biblical thing and just leave
very quietly. And unfortunately, we we Christians don't understand sins
(30:37):
of the tongue anymore. Gossip and slander and and so
we leave a church that has to be done, I
think in, in a, in a gentle, uh, a more
quiet way.
S1 (30:49):
Now, I think one of the things that happens sometimes
is we we will take a difference of opinion, a
legitimate difference of opinion, and then we will attack the
pastor as somehow he has lost his orthodoxy. He has
now become heterodox, or he's got a moral failure. Or
we'll say that about the leadership. I think that we
(31:11):
have to be really careful not to become so hostile
that we can't see that sometimes there's just differences of opinion.
You know, I came I was a member of a congregation.
I came back and they changed some of the doctrinal
positions while I was away in Israel. I came back
about two weeks later, and I found that some what
(31:33):
I considered important but not essential doctrines were changed. I thought,
what do I do about this? And so I just
called the pastor and I he said, oh, good, I'm
so glad to meet with you because I wanted to
set up when you're going to preach next. And I said, well,
I'm not going to preach next year. I think I
really need to leave this congregation, but I'm going to
(31:55):
leave really well. I just feel like I'm not going
to get angry with you. I believe you acted out
of conviction. You believe that this is the right thing
to do. I just don't feel comfortable with it. And
so I will always support the work you're doing overall
here in this congregation. But I'm going to find a
congregation where I feel a little bit more comfortable. So
after a number of years of being there and even
(32:17):
preaching about every six months, I. I left. But I
never said a negative word. I'm not saying because I
don't think there's anything negative to say. The pastor was
following his convictions on a secondary issue that I thought
was too important for me to just ignore. Uh, and
so that's that's why Eve and I left. We both
felt that way, but we we left with a good
(32:38):
relationship with the pastor. And the reason I say this,
I was really convicted by Genesis 13, when Abraham's shepherds
and lot's shepherds are having conflict. And the way Abraham
resolves it, Abraham says, uh, this ought not to be,
for we are brothers, we're family. And so you go
(33:01):
that way, we'll go this way, choose your way, and
we will still get along. And I think that's the goal.
If there's going to be a separation, to get along
still after you separate.
S2 (33:11):
And so, just to use a cliche, don't burn the
bridges behind you. Just don't.
S1 (33:17):
Yeah. That's it, I think that's. And there, you know,
sometimes we feel hurt because of things in the church.
I think there are times we have to say, well,
you know, I was hurt, but now we're brothers. I'm
going to go a different way and we'll we'll make peace.
S2 (33:31):
And we're going to forgive those people. We make a
choice to forgive those people.
S1 (33:36):
That's it. And forgiveness is a choice. I think that's
really important to do and not bear that bitterness because
it'll it'll eat you up. If we keep the bitterness,
it destroys ourselves. Yeah, yeah. So, okay, uh, we're going
to talk to Jesse in Chicago, listening on our flagship WNBA.
(33:57):
Welcome to Chris Fabry live. Jesse, how can we help
you today?
S11 (34:01):
It's a joy hearing from hearing you both. Michaels, I'd
like to greet you as the apostle with grace and
peace be multiplied upon you both greatly.
S1 (34:10):
Well, thank you.
S2 (34:11):
Thank you very much.
S11 (34:12):
Amen. Amen. Now, now, my question is, is kind of
a two fold. So, uh, just bear with me for
a moment. Now, there's there's a the Bible tells us
that if we believe on the Lord Jesus and confess
our sins and believe that on his death, burial, and
his resurrection, that we shall be saved, can we can
(34:36):
all three of us agree with that? You and other. Michael?
S1 (34:38):
Yeah. Jesse, I'm going to agree with you about that,
but I'm going to just say get to your question.
That's okay. We're not going to do a whole Bible
study on on justification right now. Just just go ahead. Okay. Okay.
S11 (34:50):
So so my question is there's a young man who, uh,
was not saved who married a young lady, and it
was just a horrible relationship. They were both young and naive,
and neither of them knew the Lord. And so he
comes and he says to me, I, you know, I
divorced her, and I've come to know Jesus as a
(35:10):
result of of a hateful, sinful life. And now that
I've come to know Lord, the Lord and Savior, he
says the people told him that he could not be
a pastor. He could not preach at a church. And
because he didn't meet the qualifications because he had been married.
So my question was, is there something that you're not
forgiven for when you receive Christ? And can he preach?
(35:33):
Can he pastor a church? So that's my question.
S1 (35:36):
So, you know, it's not that people are saying he's
not forgiven. It's just people. Look at first Timothy three
where it says the husband of one wife. Now there's
a lot of different views about what that means. I
know a man that when his wife died and he remarried,
he stepped down as a pastor because he now had
two wives. I don't think he was doing the right
thing there. But so it's obviously not necessarily you can
(36:00):
only have one wife I take I would love to
hear what Mike V says. I take what I call
the country western view of this verse where it says
the husband of one wife. I think it means a
one woman man, that if someone shows faithfulness over a
long amount of time, that they are qualified for eldership.
What do you think?
S2 (36:21):
I agree, I think, um, if if, let's say a
man is involved in an immoral relationship as a believer
or as an unbeliever especially, let's start with unbeliever. Um, and,
and then comes to Christ, uh, his first wife, let's say, remarries.
He remarries. I don't see any reason over time, as
(36:42):
he proves himself to be a one woman man, he's
now faithful to his current wife. I don't see any
reason why he could not be, uh, an elder down
the road. A lot of people would disagree with that.
S1 (36:53):
There are people who disagree.
S2 (36:54):
Yeah, but but it seems to me that, um, it's
an undue restriction to say he can never be a
pastor again.
S1 (37:01):
And various congregations have different views. Jesse. That's my view. Uh,
one of the. When I was a pastor, one of
the best elders I ever had in my congregation had
had been divorced when he became a follower of Jesus.
His wife left him. Yeah, she just didn't want to
be married to a believer. And then about 2 or
(37:23):
3 years later, he got married again. And over 12 years.
At that point, when he became an elder, he had
proven himself to be a very faithful, godly husband. And
he turned out to be a fantastic elder.
S2 (37:34):
And I had an elder almost exactly like that. Same situation,
exactly the same situation. He was a great elder, absolutely qualified.
S1 (37:43):
So yeah, so it just depends on the congregation. And
so you can encourage him to find a congregation that
has maybe a different perspective. Okay. Jessie.
S6 (37:51):
Okay. Thank you. Thank you both.
S1 (37:52):
Yeah, yeah. Uh, well, we're going to come back with
more of your questions in just a moment. You're listening
to the two Michaels takeover of Chris Fabry live. Uh,
we're hoping that they let Chris back after they. I
think they will, actually. I think they think about it. Yeah,
but we're going to be back with more of your
questions about the Bible, God and the spiritual life. So
stay with us. This is Chris Fabry live on Moody Radio.
(38:26):
While we're back here, the two Michaels are in the
house on Chris Fabry Live taking over for Chris today.
Chris is traveling today, but he'll be back. Don't worry,
you don't have to worry about us being back tomorrow.
We won't be, but he will. Uh, glad to be
with you right here on Chris Fabry live. Did I
get that right? Tricia, is will he be back tomorrow? Tuesday. Uh,
(38:49):
but you'll hear live on Tuesday. That's it. He'll be
live on Tuesday, but he will be on the air tomorrow.
That'll be great fun. Uh, well, uh, we want to
go right back to the phones, see what how many
questions we can answer. Uh, right now, we're doing our
best to talk to Estelle in Schaumburg, Illinois. Also listening
on Wmbi, our flagship station here across the Moody Network. Hey, Estelle,
(39:14):
welcome to Chris Fabry live. How can we help you?
S6 (39:16):
Hi. Uh, thank you all for taking my call. I
was calling because my grandson, who is like almost 30,
we had a disagreement, which I thought I was doing
it right, but the question was about, uh, the, uh,
scripture in Luke 1825 about the camel's eye of a needle. Mhm. And, uh,
(39:41):
I was trying to explain it to him and he
felt he, he did not understand what I was saying. I,
I said to him the scripture about it and he
said why would God leave something like that untold.
S1 (39:56):
So what was his question about it.
S6 (39:59):
It was uh, uh, he brought up the corset on
the eye of the needle. Okay. Yeah, the eye of
the needle.
S1 (40:07):
Okay, so here's what it says in that verse. It says, uh,
seeing that he became sad, this is the rich young ruler.
It says, Jesus said, how hard is it, how hard
it is for those who have wealth to enter the
kingdom of God. For it is easier for a camel
to go through the eye of a needle than for
a rich person to enter the kingdom of God. Now
(40:30):
that is just an observation. Um, in my opinion, not
a it is a description, not a prescription from God.
It's not like God says, if you're rich, I don't
want you. Uh, he's describing, uh, this, this condition of,
of wealthy people. So often they are more tied to
their wealth, and they're not willing to give their all
(40:53):
to the Lord. I think that sometimes they depend on
their wealth. They think I don't need God. I got
my wealth. What?
S2 (41:00):
It's hard to trust God if you've got a, well,
feathered nest. Yeah, I've heard that. And I think that
that's Jesus's point here, you know. Um, so it really
the idea really is, is that it's virtually impossible for
a rich man to get into heaven. We got to
we got to say one thing more after that. As
if a camel could go through the eye of a needle.
It actually means eye of a needle, and it actually
(41:20):
means a camel. Well, you can't do that. But notice
in the next verse it says the things that are
impossible with people are possible with God. In other words,
it's God who provides us, who brings us to the
point of true salvation. He can do that with a
rich person or a poor person, but on their own, uh,
rich or poor, you're not going to you're not going
(41:41):
to get there. It's impossible.
S1 (41:42):
Now, I think that that was obviously a fabulous reality
that the Lord gave there. I was telling Mike V
when I saw your question on the screen on the break,
I was, I said many, many years ago, I read
a book by Elton Trueblood called The Humor of Christ.
And and he cited this verse. He said, This is
just a funny statement that the Lord is making. It's true.
(42:04):
It's hard for a rich man who's depending on his
wealth to submit himself and turn his life over to
the Lord and trust God. I think that that's true,
but he used that funny analogy, uh, to, to communicate that.
And but I was reading something yesterday in my quiet time.
I was reading Proverbs 30, and this is one of
(42:25):
my favorite verses. It says two things I ask of you.
Verse seven don't deny them to me before I die.
Keep falsehood and deceitful words far from me. Oh God,
keep me an honest person. And then he says, second
thing he's asking give me neither poverty nor wealth. Feed
me with the food I need. Otherwise I might have
(42:47):
too much and deny you saying, who is the Lord?
Or I might have nothing and steal profaning the name
of my God. So wealth or poverty? Either way, it
could make us turn from the Lord. And and I
think in this verse, when it talks about the rich man, it's,
it's showing that, yeah, you could somehow some somehow forget
(43:10):
God and think you don't need him. Right. That's it.
So I hope that helps. Estelle. Uh, and if it doesn't,
you can tell your grandson to listen in the podcast
or online or something like that. Or he can call
us himself sometime, I hope. Uh, anytime on Saturday or
next time. We're on Chris Faber next month. So, anyway,
thanks for your call, Estelle. Uh, we're going to talk
(43:30):
to Del in Muncie, Indiana, listening on WGN. Welcome to
to to Chris Fabry live. Uh, uh, glad you're with us.
How can we help you today?
S12 (43:42):
Okay. Real quick. I've got a friend, pastor friend of
mine who, uh, wants to spiritualize everything about the end times.
Believe that the millennial kingdom has already happened, that, uh,
Satan has been thrown into the lake of fire, and
(44:03):
end times is all done and over with. I don't
understand it. I don't see it. I'm pretty much myself
believing they are most common end times prophecies.
S2 (44:20):
So I have to say, um, here, Dale, if this
is the Millennial Kingdom, or if this is the kingdom
of God and Satan is bound right now, I want
my money back. Sorry, I just do. I think if
Satan is bound, there's going to be conditions radically different
from how we see them now. In addition, I want
(44:40):
to propose that while the death of Christ is supremely
important and sets him up for the final victory over
all the spiritual forces, uh, there are some implications here.
It says, for example, in Hebrews chapter two verse five says, he,
God did not subject to angels, the world to come.
(45:01):
But then in verse eight, in Hebrews chapter two, he says.
For in subjecting all things to him, to Jesus, he
God left nothing that is not subjected to him. But
now we are. Now we do not yet see all
things subjected to him. This is for the world to come.
And we're not in the world to come yet. That's
(45:23):
going to be the Millennial Kingdom. Uh, that's still future.
S1 (45:26):
Yeah. I was thinking about Isaiah 6525, where the wolf
and the lamb will feed together and the lion will
eat straw like the ox. Well, I just don't see
that happening today. I think they're still predatory animals as
well as predatory nations and people making war. I don't
believe we're there yet. But one day we will be.
(45:47):
And I think that's the great hope we have. The
Lord Jesus will return and he will establish his kingdom.
S2 (45:52):
And we will know it.
S1 (45:54):
Yeah, it'll be pretty clear.
S13 (45:55):
Pretty clear.
S1 (45:56):
Yeah. He'll be reigning from Jerusalem. I don't think there'll
be any question about. Are we in the kingdom? The
King will be present. He'll be reigning over us. And
it's something I look forward to. I hope you are too. And, uh. Well,
I hope your friend also, uh, starts looking forward to that. Well,
thank you, Mike, for joining me here on Chris Fabry Live.
S13 (46:15):
Yeah, this is great.
S1 (46:16):
Yeah. I'm so glad you made the trek. We're here
in studio together, looking at each other face to face. Uh,
just like we will the Lord. Uh, in the messianic kingdom,
we'll be face to face. But, uh, my name is
Michael Riedel. I'm so glad that I got to be
here with you today. I hope you'll join me next
Saturday on Open Line. When we talk about your questions
about the Bible. And we'll be back in about a
(46:36):
month on Chris Fabry live. Chris will be back tomorrow
and on Tuesday live. Glad you listened in today. Keep
listening to Chris Fabry live. We'll be right back. Chris
Fabry Live is a production of Moody Radio, a ministry
of Moody Bible Institute.
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