August 11, 2025 • 46 mins
Do you struggle with feeling like God is disappointed with you? That He looks over the portals of heaven and shakes His head when He sees you? Dr. Kyle DiRoberts says from the first verse in the Bible to the very last, there's a thread that holds humanity's story together—and that thread is grace. Have you received it? Are you living in that grace beyond salvation? Hear a liberating conversation on Chris Fabry Live.
Featured resource:
Grace Beyond Salvation by Kyle DiRoberts
August thank you gift:
Talking with God: Daily Readings Through the Psalms by Ryan Cook & Today in the Word
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Episode Transcript
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S1 (00:06):
If you feel like God is disappointed with you, if
you struggle with that, that right now, even right now,
he's looking over the portal of Heaven and he's shaking
his head when he sees you. Today's conversation on Chris
Fabry Live is designed to help you see the truth,
and this is a personal topic I decided last week
(00:27):
we needed to have in relation to a conversation after
a program with a listener. I'll explain his conundrum and
we're going to meet author and professor Doctor Kyle D Roberts.
He believes from the very first verse in the Bible
to the last, there's a thread that holds humanity's story together,
and that thread is grace. There's no better subject to discuss,
(00:50):
and we're going to do it today at the Radio
Backyard Fence. Thank you for tuning to the program. From
the heart to the heart for the heart. Thanks to
our team behind the scenes, Ryan McConaughey is doing all
things technical. Trish is our producer. Ananda is answering your
calls today. We have some other team members. I won't
name them in toto because there's too many of them.
They are our back fence friends and partners who give
(01:12):
a gift to support us. And I get to choose
our thank you that we send each month this month.
Doctor Ryan Cook of Moody Bible Institute. We're going to
have him back on Thursday. His new book covers 150 psalms.
It's titled talking with God. And he says, The Psalms
teach us that we can be honest with the Almighty.
(01:32):
Brutally honest at times. And as you go through it,
I think it could transform your attitude about prayer. If
it's a struggle for you and who doesn't have a
struggle with prayer? Let me send you Ryan's book, Talking
with God. It's our thank you right now. Give a
gift of any size at eight 6695 or go to
Chris Fabry Live.com. Scroll down. You'll see how to be
(01:54):
a friend or partner right there. Chris. Fabry. Fabry. Chris
Fabry live or (866) 953-2279. Thank you for your support here
in the month of August. Doctor Kyle D Roberts is
the department chair and associate professor of biblical and theological
studies at Arizona Christian University in Glendale, Arizona, adjunct professor
(02:17):
at Dallas Theological Seminary, and pastor of the Minister in
Residence program at Scottsdale Bible Church. He and his wife, lolly,
live in Scottsdale, just down the road from yours truly.
They have three boys, and his latest book is our
featured resource. If you go to that website. Chris. Org
click through today's information you will see grace beyond salvation,
(02:41):
revealing God's love from Genesis to Revelation. Doctor Roberts, welcome
to the program. How are you doing today?
S2 (02:48):
Hey Chris, good to be here. Thanks for having me.
S1 (02:51):
I want to begin the conversation. And you okayed this, uh,
because last week there's been something on my mind. I
had a real world conversation about this topic, and it
was with a listener that not on the air, but
off the air, who has seen God do some amazing,
amazing things in his life. But now some things are
going wrong, and he feels like he promised God that
(03:13):
he would tell everybody about what God did for him,
the miraculous stuff that he did for him, and he
feels like God let him down, that he hasn't told everybody,
and he feels like he's kind of on the outside
looking in at the goodness of God. And as I
heard him and have kind of processed it further, it
felt like he believes in order to gain the favor
(03:34):
of God and to keep God's favor, he's got to
earn it. He has to keep his end of the bargain.
And that really isn't grace anymore. And that's one of
the things that I've been working through. And the other
thing that made me uncomfortable with the conversation was I
see myself in him. I can see subtle ways I
(03:55):
will get into a performance mindset and feel that God
must be massively angry or disappointed in me, or both.
And that's why I wanted to have you on today.
What would you say to anybody who is struggling with
what I just talked about?
S2 (04:13):
You know, theologically and this is I don't mean this
to be as provocative as it's going to sound, but
when you're dealing with a situation like this, which you
just personified it, I can self-identify with that. Clearly this
caller as well. And I'm sure there's many others listening
so we can relate to this. But one of the
(04:34):
truths about God is that just because we believe in
the Lord Jesus and we have been saved, it doesn't
mean that our life is going to be easy or easier.
And I'll even say this just because we're obedient, it
does not guarantee a successful outcome in a fallen world,
(04:54):
you know, affected by total depravity, that we were completely
affected by sin. We live in a sinful world. To
think that just by merely believing in Jesus, our our problems.
And I don't mean to oversimplify this, but that our
problems subside or that they go away is, I think, wrongly,
understanding what truly is the promise of God. Like you
(05:16):
had just talked about, the author from Moody Bible Institute
writing that book on all of the various Psalms and
Psalm 23 comes to mind. You know, David finds great comfort, yes,
in the green pastures, but he also finds comfort in
the midst of the valleys. And so really ultimately, though,
then you got to ask the question, well, why? Why
(05:38):
has he found comfort? And the answer isn't in relation
to a problem or suffering that is here or there
or gone. But really the answer is, is that he
finds comfort because he's with the good Shepherd. And so
when we are with God, when we are dwelling with God,
this is where we ultimately find our rest. Even in
(06:01):
the valleys, which makes no sense, especially to an observing world,
it would make no sense how we could possibly find
comfort in the midst of a valley. But theologically, according
to King David, he understood in the midst of the
valley I can still find peace, still find comfort. Why?
Because you are with me. Your rod and your staff,
(06:21):
they comfort me. And so I think that's ultimately what
I would tell that listener, is that, yes, I understand
how we can arrive there theologically or how we can,
you know, begin to think that way. However, sometimes we
need to tweak and modify our thinking a little bit
concerning God. And this is one of those examples, so
that we can begin to lean more into God's presence
(06:41):
in our life, even in the midst of the hard stuff.
And I think on the other end of it, and
I can speak of this as well, testimonials like on
the other end of it, these are my greatest stories
of God. Walking me through and taking me through some
really difficult periods in my life wasn't in that it
was absent of suffering, but it was in the midst
(07:02):
of the suffering. I was still able to say, see, look,
God is with me. And that's the promise that we
need to lean on the most.
S1 (07:10):
I think what you've just described is exactly what a
lot of people are going through. And oats for me,
you and I both live in Arizona and we're both
having air conditioning problems, so it's like this. And that's
a small thing compared with what some people are dealing with.
But it's a big thing, you know? It's a hard thing.
And part of it is not knowing. I don't know
(07:32):
what it's going to cost. I don't know how long
it's going to take. And you know, when we go
get this house cool or the car, if you're dealing
with that, it is the tension inside. It's like, God,
when I signed up for this Christian thing and when
I signed up to receive your Grace, I signed up
not to have this tension in my life. And yet,
as you said, the times of greatest growth, the times
(07:55):
of moving forward, you know, as a fiction writer, fiction
runs on tension. It runs on conflict. But I don't
want that in my life. And God seems massively disinterested
in taking the tension away from me. Do you feel
the same way?
S2 (08:11):
Oh, absolutely. And I think that's where. And look, you're
the heroes. Never leave the problem. The reason why we
we dub them heroes is because they've they've defeated whatever
the adversary is. And so I think part of just
being and living where we do and just enjoying the
freedoms that we have and, and kind of the American
(08:33):
way in many ways. Um, we're, we're more conditioned to
see success as the eradication of things, not in the
perseverance and going through something. You know, uh, one of
my favorite books That, um, to read the kids is
we're going on a bear hunt, and that's always one
(08:55):
that I will return to in my memory. In situations
like this, because, you know, they if you if you've
read this to your kids, you'll know what I'm talking about.
But it's like we're going on a bear hunt, we're
going to catch a big one. And they come to
all these obstacles. And then and then the kind of
the story goes, you know, we can't, you know, oh, no,
a big, you know, pile of mud. And it's like,
we can't go over it. We can't go under it.
(09:15):
We've got to go through it. And I think part
of the reality of the Christian faith is that we've
got to go through these things. But the great promise
from God is that as we go through it, we
will never, ever, ever be alone because he is with us.
He has promised by his grace, he has promised to
be with us.
S1 (09:34):
I haven't read that bear book, but I've lived it,
and I believe it. You know, because a rival, I
want completion. I want to get all this stuff behind me.
I don't want to deal with this anymore? God, you know,
why don't you fix all this stuff so I can arrive?
And he says I care too much about you to
(09:55):
let you experience this, this temporary completion that you really want.
And it's his presence that makes all the difference. Now,
here's what happened. As I was going through Kyle's book,
doctor Kyle D Roberts is our guest. D Roberts, uh,
grace Beyond salvation. This is going to turn the light
(10:15):
on for a number of people and maybe even the
conversation today. And it's going to do it in a
winsome way. You're going to laugh out loud as you
read some of these theological truths, and we're going to
jump into the grace of God when we return from
a brief time out. If you want to talk with him. (877) 548-3675.
(10:37):
Grace Beyond Salvation is our featured resource at Chris Fabry
Live more straight ahead.
S3 (10:53):
Make sure you check out.
S1 (10:54):
Kyle Robert's book, Grace Beyond Salvation Revealing God's Love from
Genesis to Revelation. And I see this theme coming over
the last couple of months. We talked about Colin Smith
and and driving through the Bible, and how many people
see the Old Testament as God is stern and he's
wrathful and he has vengeance. And then and then we
(11:15):
get to Jesus, and he's full of love, and he's
full of grace and mercy. And the same thing with
with this salvation, Jesus was full of grace and truth,
and his grace is just all over. His loving kindness
is there. But you go to the Old Testament, boy,
there's a lot of really hard stuff. And what Doctor
Roberts says is, no, the same thing is in in
(11:38):
Genesis as it is in the Gospels, as it is
in revelation, the grace of God. We're going to unpack that.
And he does so Winsomely in the book Grace. Beyond Salvation.
Just go to Chris Fabry live. Chris Fabry, give me
a definition. I've always heard God's riches at Christ's expense.
(11:59):
Learned that very early on. When you say grace, what
do you mean?
S2 (12:05):
Yeah. I mean, when I say grace. Well, actually, before
let me back up, I do think that for most people,
grace is understood as some measure of God's unmerited favor.
Receiving something that you do not deserve. And I do
think that the primary like lens that people understand grace
(12:25):
is through this lens of salvation, right? That we're saved
by grace and not by our works, so nothing of
our own doing. So we can't we have nothing to
proclaim in terms of justifying that we have been saved,
which is true, and it's beautiful. But I also think
that grace is so much more than merely something that
saves you. And so the context that I'm trying to
(12:47):
also help us to see what grace is capable of
is that grace is the very means by which we
dwell in God's presence. So prior to the fall, after
the fall, and the new heaven and the new earth,
the only way that a human being can proclaim any
kind of a presence or dwelling in God's presence, they're
doing so only by the grace of the Lord Jesus.
(13:11):
And so I'm trying to maintain this rich heritage, this
lens that we've looked at grace throughout so much of
our history as Christians, but also claims some of this
perspective as well in terms of, well, what does grace
look like? You know, apart from our salvation, meaning? Meaning
how do we dwell with God? And the only way
we're able to achieve that is, is through God's grace,
(13:33):
through the grace of the Lord Jesus.
S1 (13:35):
So that's why you say you need God's grace today
as much as you did from the moment that you
trusted in Christ fully and allowed him to come in
and change you from the inside out. You need that
same thing today. Maybe in a different, a little different way.
But you need to claim that over your life, right?
S2 (13:55):
Absolutely. Yeah. I'm I'm a sinner. And I will continue
to be until Jesus returns. And so there is a
dependency that I have upon the grace of the Lord Jesus.
So in order for me to dwell in God's presence. Um,
there it's not it's not predicated on this perfect life
or me having it all together, but that instead it's
(14:18):
my dependency on the grace of the Lord Jesus. So
I go to the Lord when I sin and I
ask for forgiveness and and that relationship is restored. Or
maybe that's with my kids or my wife or whomever
this might be. I'm still in need of grace today.
But here's what's kind of crazy is there's a time
period in which grace we weren't affected by the fall.
So there was a time when Adam and Eve, prior
(14:39):
to the fall, were dwelling with God. Well, I think
they were just as dependent on grace then as they
were immediately after the fall. And then I think for
you and I today, one, one day there's this promise
of the new heaven and the new earth, and we
will only dwell with God in the new heaven and
the new earth, being completely dependent on God's grace. We
(15:02):
just don't even know what that feels right like right now,
because we still live in a fallen world. So for
us to think in terms of what would life be
like if we weren't affecting or we weren't affected by
the fall, that's really hard to envision. But there will
be a time in which that will be our reality.
We just don't even know what that will, what that
will feel like or what that will be like.
S1 (15:22):
I was thinking about that over the weekend. Adam and Eve,
you know, doing life together outside of the garden, thinking back,
remember when, you know, wouldn't it have been better? Oh,
I wish we hadn't have made that mistake. But even
in that, you go all the way back and you
have some of these great conversation between you and your kids.
And I think it was your son who was talking
(15:42):
about Genesis one one that you see God's grace in
the creation account. In the beginning, God created the heavens
and the earth. How do you get grace out of that?
S2 (15:55):
Yeah. Well, so this is just kind of fun, you know? Yeah.
My my son came to me one day and said, hey,
he was learning how to read at the time, and
he said, can I read to you Genesis one one?
And I said, of course. And so he he opened
up his Bible and, you know, he was making sure
I was paying, you know, very close attention. And so
then he reads, he goes, in the beginning, God created
the heavens and the earth, and and I and I
(16:17):
just I encouraged him. I said, buddy, that's awesome. Like
good job. And then, you know, this is when my
kids regret that their dad is a theology professor, because
then then I say, well, um, it says there in
the beginning, God created the heavens and the new earth.
I said, well, who's God? And and Caden kind of
looked at me like, well, what do you what do
you mean, who's God? I said, well, who's God? Is
(16:37):
that the Trinity is that all three persons of the Trinity,
or is that one particular person of the Trinity? And
if it's one particular person of Trinity, well then. Well
then who is it? And, uh, he just kind of
looked at me all kind of like, well, I don't,
I don't know, dad, like, you know, who was it?
And I and I think for most people when they
read that, they think if anything, they think if it's
(16:59):
a person that it's that it's the that it's the father. Right?
The God of the Old Testament is predominantly the father.
And then, uh, and moves on to Jesus and maybe
the Holy Spirit, you know, down the road. But I
asked Caden, I said, hey, can I read to you
a verse in Colossians? And, uh, and so he said, yes.
And so I peel over to the right, and I
(17:21):
go to Colossians one, and I go to verse 15,
and it says, he is the image of the invisible God,
the firstborn of all creation. And I asked Caden, I said, well,
who's the he? He said, Jesus. I said, okay, bud. Well,
I'm going to can I put Jesus's name in there
instead of he or him? And he said, sure. So
I went back and I said, okay, so Jesus is
the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
(17:43):
And then for by Jesus all things were created in
heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or
dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through
Jesus and for Jesus. And so I turned back to
Genesis one one and I said, buddy, I think in
the beginning, God here is in reference to Jesus. And
(18:04):
Paul in Colossians is telling us so much. And he
kind of looked at me like, well, that's cool, but
I'm not totally convinced. And then that's when I went
over to the Gospel of John, and I read to
him chapter five, because in there Jesus and verse 39,
he makes two references to this greater witness, greater than
even John the Baptist. And Jesus says, you search. He's
(18:27):
talking to the Jews. He says, you search the scriptures
because you think that in them you have life. But
it is they that bear witness about me. Well, scriptures
there in in John five is in reference to the
Old Testament because the New Testament wasn't complete yet. So
there Jesus is saying, you search the scriptures, the Old Testament,
because you think that in them there is life, but
(18:49):
it's they, the Old Testament that bear witness about me.
And then Jesus doubles down on it a few verses
later and he says, if you believed Moses, you would
do well, because Moses wrote about me. And then I
go back to Genesis one one. And Moses wrote Genesis
one one. And so Paul is reading the Bible, just
(19:09):
like Jesus had taught him to read the Bible, which
was to look for Jesus. And I think that's kind
of one of our first great rites of passage. As
we're reading the Old Testament, we can't lose sight of
the permission that Jesus has given us to look for
him everywhere. And as a result of that, when we
go to Genesis one one, in the beginning, God I
think that's Jesus created the heavens and the earth. But
(19:33):
then you got to go, Okay, so there's Jesus. But
what about grace? It doesn't mention grace. Well, God's unmerited favor.
One of the. I think the very first instances of
grace in the Bible is with the word created in
Genesis one one. In the beginning, God, Jesus created grace,
(19:53):
the heavens and the earth. Why do I say grace?
Because what we find in Genesis 126 and 27 is
that creation is a gift given to mankind, so that
they might rule and have authority, and have dominion over
all that God had created. And so you get this.
Like Adam and Eve did nothing to deserve this. This
(20:13):
was given to them as a gracious gift. And so
in the beginning, God, Jesus created grace, the heavens and
the earth. And then this is what I love is
then you get to the very end of the Bible,
and this is revelation 22, verse 21. The very last
verse of the Bible says, As and the grace of
(20:35):
the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen. And so what
you find in the very first verse of the Bible
is the grace of the Lord Jesus. And then sure enough,
as you can only imagine, right, God ends the Bible
with the grace of the Lord Jesus, which and then
in turn kind of reveals this massive meta narrative. This,
this thread which unites the whole Bible together, is this
(20:57):
beautiful depiction of the grace of the Lord Jesus. And
to me.
S1 (21:02):
I love it.
S2 (21:04):
And yeah. And to me, I just there's something I
think sometimes we've lost the art of just appreciating just
how beautiful the Word of God is. We study it,
we memorize it. But sometimes we don't just appreciate just
how intricate and thoughtful and purposeful Scripture is. And here
all along, God has been in this pursuit of us
(21:25):
to dwell with us, but also to reveal the grace
of the Lord Jesus to us as well.
S1 (21:30):
And that's what you unpack in the book Grace Beyond Salvation. Again,
it's our featured resource at. Doctor Kyle. Dr. Roberts is
with us at the back fence today. I want to
go back to something you said, though a little bit earlier.
And that is as I'm I'm processing this. I think
(21:50):
a lot of times in people's lives, we look at
salvation and we see for by grace you say you've
been saved through faith, not of your own doing. It's
a gift of God. Get that. Not a result of works. No, don't.
Don't want to boast. But we stop there and we say, okay,
salvation is something that I receive and God starts to
(22:13):
do the work. And now I got to pick up
the other. I got to jump on the teeter totter
or pick up the the wheelbarrow or whatever it is,
whatever metaphor you use. And now it's up to me.
Now it's up to me to stay in that relationship
with him so that he will like me, so that
he will give his favor to me. And one of
(22:38):
the things you say in the book is for God.
A relationship with him looks like rest. Go back to
Psalm 23. But that, for many Christians, is a foreign
concept other than thinking of the Sabbath. You know, I'm
not going to do any work on this day or
to go to church and do a lot, but rest
(22:59):
is that's that's like a day a week, if that.
You say that this is a, a life long, not pursuit,
but something that God gives to us. We don't have
to be on the treadmill of activity doing to make
sure that he likes us. Today. We can rest in
his grace. Explain that.
S2 (23:21):
Yeah. So, you know, we just we just talked about
Genesis one one, and then we go to revelation 2221
and we we see this thread of the grace of
the Lord Jesus. And then it does beg a question.
At some point you go, okay, but why? Like what?
Like why is it the grace of the Lord Jesus? Like,
(23:42):
what's the purpose of this? And I think this is
one of humanity's great questions that we just continually ask ourselves. Well,
I think I think later on in Genesis, um, God
actually reveals to us the. Why? Because at the very
end of creation, on the seventh day, it says in
Genesis two one it says, thus the heavens and the
(24:05):
earth were finished, and all the host of them. And
on the seventh day God finished his work that he
had done, and he rested on the seventh day from
all the work that he had done. So God blessed
the seventh day and made it holy, because on it
God rested from all his work that he had done
in creation. This seventh day is unique because all of
(24:26):
the other days of creation. There was the pronouncement that
there was evening, and then there was morning. And then
whatever day it was on the seventh day, though, there's
no pronouncement of a conclusion. It's as though the seventh
day was meant to just continue on forevermore. And the
reality for us on that seventh day was that we
(24:49):
were to rest with God as God was with and
within his creation. So God didn't create and then retreat
to some throne, but that instead God chose to rest
with us. And one of the words I love in
Genesis two one, two and three that we unpack in
the book is that this word rest in Genesis two one, two,
(25:13):
and three. That word rest also means dwell. So part
of the reality, this proclamation on the seventh day is
that yes, God is going to rest. But inherent to
rest is this idea of dwelling so that we are
dwelling with and within this creation that God has made,
and the Creator himself. Which to me is absolutely beautiful
(25:37):
because it sets the tone for our purpose. So if
you've ever wondered, well, what am I doing here? Well,
you were created to dwell with God, to be at
rest with him.
S1 (25:46):
That's Kyle to Roberts. We'll continue with our conversation on
what a great topic. The grace of God. Straight ahead.
We're talking about the grace of God today. And this
(26:07):
is something that theologically, you can believe in your head
and you can have proof texts about this and you
can say, well, this is what grace is, and this
is what God does, and you can you can believe that.
You can think that. But then down into about about
a foot south of that is your heart And do
you really feel loved by God? Do you really feel
(26:30):
that God's grace is changing you? And that's a question
that I have for you. How is God's grace changing
you right now? Or how is God's grace changing the
way that you look at the situation that you're in,
the struggle that you're having, the suffering that you're going
through is your prayer? God, take this away. And if
he doesn't, then you must have done something wrong or
(26:52):
he hasn't heard you. Is it only take this away? Or,
as doctor De Roberts has said here today, the presence
of God in the middle of the struggle is evidence
of the grace of God in your life. So I'm
going to give you our phone number if if this
(27:12):
is clicking, if you were thinking, if you're driving down
the road and you're looking at the radio, how do
you know I'm going through this? We don't we don't
know that, but God does. 87754. 5483675. Or maybe you're
having a hard time believing that the grace of God
could save or forgive even you. He could forgive all
(27:37):
the other people, and even the bad people out there,
and the people who are having all this, that and
the other thing. But you've done something. I mean, a
lot of those people who say, I've done something, God
could never forgive me for this. Is that you? (877) 548-3675.
One of the things that you talk about in the book, Kyle,
(27:57):
is the phrase, by the grace of God. Uh, and
we kind of throw this. Oh, yeah, by the grace
of God, I. And then fill in the blank. Um,
can you tell me what that means and what it
doesn't mean?
S2 (28:11):
Yeah. I think what I my hope is, is that
some of the, the shift in our thinking about God
is not just the moments in which we proclaim, you know, okay,
so I get to the gas station in time and
I didn't run out of gas. And so it's by
the grace of God or, you know, I you know,
(28:33):
I've been praying earnestly for a job so I can
support my family. And so, by the grace of God,
I receive a job that that provides for our needs.
I mean, those are examples of the grace of God,
but just but technically speaking, everything is by the grace
of God. And so our whole life, and this is
the perspective that I'm hoping, is that, yes, in those
(28:55):
moments we would acknowledge this is but by the grace
of God, but that also in the unseen things. So
even in the ways in which God doesn't necessarily reveal, uh,
what we perceive to be our desired outcomes, to be
that we can still proclaim with our faith that that
by the grace of God he will provide, by the
grace of God he will sustain. By the grace of God,
(29:18):
he will draw me into his presence because so much
I think, um, of our relationship with God is, is
is determined by the outcome. So we pray for we
pray for a and then when we receive a, um,
this is how we then proclaim, okay, this is but
by the grace of God, well, sometimes we're going to
pray for a and we we might not receive a
(29:40):
for a while, or maybe we never do well in
that moment. What I don't want us to think is,
is that God doesn't love us, or we don't know
how to pray, or that God's grace isn't real, but
that instead we have to trust that this is that
this is who God is, that that this was his answer.
This was his desired answer, given this circumstance, but that
(30:01):
we can still be dependent on him. So let me
circle all the way back around when I'm talking with
my university students. I never want to just set them
up for failure in terms of just you pray for
it and you're going to receive it. Sometimes my job
as the professor is to sit with them as they're
wrestling with the reality that maybe the answer is no.
(30:24):
Or maybe it's just not right now. And so you're
in this waiting and this patient and this kind of
faithful posture before the Lord. I would much rather them
be there than make the pronouncement that they don't have
the gift of prayer, or that they're not good at praying,
or that somehow they've sinned. And so God's ignoring them. Um,
(30:45):
it might just very well be that that we're just
in one of those moments where we have to wait. Yes.
S1 (30:51):
And and there's where the presence comes in. The other
thing that you make clear is that God's grace is
is not like karma, because some people will say, well,
by the grace of God, and that means they've had
some spiritual luck or almost a, a spiritual knock on wood,
you know, by the grace of God. And I hope
(31:12):
it doesn't happen, you know, continually. It's not karma, right?
S2 (31:18):
No it's not. And and that is a perception. This
is going to affect your prayer life. And this is
going to affect your relationship with God. That that God
isn't in a responsive posture to us. I mean, what
we have to understand is, is that God is good,
God is merciful. God is gracious. God is loving. God
is just right. God is these things irrespective of any
(31:41):
kind of a of a circumstance that you might find
yourself in. It always just works to our advantage when
the when the outcome is positive, we think that we've
contributed in some small way to whatever that positive outcome is,
because there's a reward, perhaps on the other side of that,
or what some people perceive to be as just karma
(32:03):
or good luck. But in reality, what we have to
what we have to run in is who is God?
Like we have to know that truth. Who is God?
And when we understand who God is now, we can
make that kind of a truth claim in light of
whatever we might be experiencing, experiencing circumstantially so that now
(32:25):
God isn't just karma because so many of us are
walking around thinking something bad's happened to us because I
did something bad. But see what in that moment, what
we're doing is, is we're saying somehow my sin is
greater than God's ability to forgive me, or that my
sin is somehow greater than God's gracious ability to forgive me.
(32:46):
And I don't, I don't we don't see that anywhere
in the Bible that that that that's how this works.
S1 (32:51):
Well, and that you can prove that by by showing
how far God went to accomplish that on the cross
and the empty tomb. Right?
S2 (33:03):
Yes. Yeah. And there's no greater example. I don't I mean,
than God's grace than through through the cross that this
is in a fallen world, right? I mean, for God
to enter our world, right? The incarnation. That's very dwelling language, right?
So for God to come and to dwell amongst us, uh,
and then to live than to die, and then three
(33:25):
days later to rise from the dead so that we
might have a relationship with him, so that we might
dwell with him forever and ever and ever. Um, that
is that's quite remarkable. I mean, that that is the
ultimate trump card concerning whatever circumstances we might be going
through at the moment. But I also want to be
very honest. That doesn't that doesn't make what we're going
(33:47):
through right now and the suffering that we're enduring right now.
In some ways, it doesn't make it any easier, right?
I mean, so suffering is still going to happen. We're
going to pray for people to live, but they're going
to die. We're going to pray for an illness to
go away. But it won't. But we also hold out
hope that there's that there's hope in the future, right?
That that this isn't the end. And so some, some
(34:09):
part of our reality that we rest in is that, yes,
we dwell with God right now, but there's still a
completed kind of rest yet to come. That we're longing
for and we're looking to. And that's why, at the
very end of revelation, John is actually being taught to pray,
Lord Jesus, come back now. Like, let's like come back,
(34:31):
return so that this is all done away with so
that the pain and the suffering is no more.
S1 (34:37):
The place that I always go to for that in
the life of Jesus is that the tomb of Lazarus
and and the weeping that he does, the, the, the
humanity that comes out there, that those weren't crocodile tears.
He didn't say, hey, guys, watch this. You know, don't
cry anymore because look at what's going to happen. It's like, no,
(34:59):
he he saw the what the cost of death. He
saw the cost of sin. He saw the weeping of
the the sisters who loved Lazarus and Jesus. He felt
it because he loved Lazarus as well. It was a
totally authentic human reaction. And yet at the same time,
(35:20):
the resurrection of Lazarus happened there as well. I want
to see how you're responding to this. Let me go
to Eduardo in Chicago. Eduardo, why did you call today?
S4 (35:32):
Hi. Yes, I just wanted to make a comment and
kind of sort of a question, I guess. Um, so
my belief is the Bible states that grace is unwavering
and undeserved. Correct?
S1 (35:47):
Yes, yes. Undeserved. Unmerited. Yeah.
S4 (35:51):
Okay. So that's telling me that grace has to be
received by faith and not by works. Yes. Am I right?
S2 (36:01):
Yes.
S4 (36:03):
Okay, so since grace is undeserved and received through faith
and not by works, then. Whether you commit sins willingly
or unwillingly, the fall from grace depends on your repentance
towards God. Correct.
S1 (36:25):
Explain what you mean by that. Before we say before
we agree with you, uh, explain that last part of it.
S4 (36:33):
So what I mean is, like you commit a sin, uh, willingly,
just because you know, you can't repent. That is, like,
not where grace is involved. Grace is involved where your
sin is committed. And then you realize it and you
(36:56):
repent because you realize that is not the step that
you should have taken. But in that situation, you know,
with overwhelming feelings. It just came out.
S2 (37:07):
Yeah. Eduardo, that's a great point that you bring up.
And that's actually that was one of I tried to
keep that question somewhere in my head and obviously near
to my heart as I wrote this book, because what
I didn't want, Eduardo, is I didn't want somebody to
read this book and then somehow draw a conclusion that
(37:30):
grace was just this means or this mechanism to go,
you can go live however you'd like, and then God
will just forgive you by the grace of God, right?
Because of his his work there on the cross. And
so then it kind of gives you a free pass
to go live. And one of the areas that we
unpack actually, because of this is first, John, it's a
(37:51):
little tiny letter written by John the Apostle John. And
in that he's talking about walking in the light, but
he's talking about walking the light, because the idea here
is that they're actually in the darkness because of sin.
And so the way in which one walks in the light,
even after they sin, is they confess that sin. And
so then that's where you kind of get that somewhat
(38:12):
recognizable verse there in first John one nine where it says,
if we confess our sins, he's faithful and just to
forgive us of our sins and to cleanse us from
all unrighteousness. So part of that reality is, is, okay,
so here I've sinned. I confess that sin and then
God forgives us. One of the things that John does
is it's almost like Eduardo. He's he's he's speaking to
(38:37):
even what you're asking about and commenting on and that
I was concerned with as well, because but at the
very beginning of the next chapter, so right after first
John one nine, John writes, my little children, I'm writing
these things to you. What are these things? Well, it's
how to get back to the light. Like how do
I restore my fellowship with God? So I'm writing these
(38:59):
things to you. And then he says so that you
may not sin. So John is even trying to say, hey,
I'm writing these things not to give you a free
pass to sin. I'm actually writing these things so that
you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we
have an advocate with the father, Jesus Christ, the Righteous one.
So John, in this weird way, I don't know if
(39:20):
weird is the right word, but in John in this way,
what he's doing is he's going, I'm actually teaching you
how to confess your sins so that you might restore
your relationship with God. And he's even hoping that as
he teaches this, it actually motivates the Christian not to
sin more. But he's saying, I'm writing these things so
that you may not sin. Yes. Which I think's which
(39:41):
I think is pretty remarkable. But we still have to
deal with that reality.
S1 (39:45):
Here's what it leads us to. Is, is that rest
that you were talking about? If I know that. And
Paul writes this about this as well. You know, sin
more so that grace can abound. No, no, you're not
getting it. Uh, so, Eduardo, I want you to hang on.
I'd love to send you a copy of this book. Uh,
we'll get your information and put it in the mail
(40:06):
to your grace beyond salvation, revealing God's Love from Genesis
to Revelation by Doctor Kyle D Roberts. You can find
out more about it. We have a link right there, Chris.
Moore straight ahead. You have received God's grace at salvation.
(40:35):
Now what? That is what we're talking about here today
at the radio backyard fence with Doctor Kyle D Roberts.
You can find out more about him. He is department
chair and associate professor of biblical and theological studies at
Arizona Christian University in Glendale. And there's more grace beyond salvation,
revealing God's love from Genesis to Revelation. It's our featured
(40:58):
resource at Chris. Chris. Org. Uh, hearkening back to what
Eduardo said, here's a quote from the book. God's grace
was never intended to condone sin, but he did intend
grace to endure our sinfulness and triumph over it. So
(41:19):
that is part of the presence and the process, the
sanctification process that we go through when many people will simply,
you know, they sin. They did something that they didn't
want to do, and they did it again. And they
feel condemnation about that. Um, what you're saying is the
grace of God is not condoning that, but it is
(41:42):
bringing you back into that relationship and that forgiveness that
God is freely offering. Right?
S2 (41:49):
That's exactly right. Yeah. And I one of clearly it's
not condoning sin, but part of the reality living in
a fallen world. Right? So we're living in a world
totally and completely affected by the fall sin nature, we've
got to at least acknowledge the reality that none of
(42:10):
us will will achieve sinlessness. So that means when we sin,
what are we supposed to do? Well, we can hide it.
We can avoid it. Or we can confess that sin right?
And lean upon the grace of the Lord Jesus for
that forgiveness of our sin. Receive that and then restore
our relationships. And so, so much of this enduring of
(42:33):
sinfulness that I speak of is, is simply just to allow.
What I don't want is any reader or listener to
this radio show to think that somehow what they've done
or who they are is unforgivable by God. That God
somehow does not want them, does not want a relationship
(42:53):
with them, but that instead, I mean, part of the
beauty of the grace of God is that that I mean,
test it, try it. I mean, God will. I mean,
show me one time in the Bible where somebody humbly
goes before the Lord and he receives that, um, humility
in return extends humiliation to that person. Like God receives them,
(43:13):
he welcomes them home. And that's what's so maddening. I
think sometimes as believers, and we even talk about in
the book Jonah and his attitude towards Nineveh. And then
we talk about the prodigal son and the older brother's
attitude towards his younger brother. And thankfully, as God has
sovereignly made a decision to not allow us as human
(43:37):
beings to administer God's grace. So I don't get a
say in who receives God's grace or how, but that
instead that is God's sovereign decision. And then we end
up just seeing in the Bible how God has chosen
us to extend his grace to us. And it's remarkable.
S1 (43:54):
Can you talk to the person you know? We've talked
about grace to somebody who's listening, who says, I hear
you Christians talking about grace and I have a problem
with that, because you think that anybody who's done people
on death row right now can just say one prayer
and everything is, you know, everything is hunky dory. What
about all the people? ET cetera. ET cetera. Or the
person who says the same thing I brought up a
(44:16):
little earlier. You don't know my life. You don't know
what I've done. I believe God's grace is available for
you because you sound like a pretty good person. I'm not.
How does a person receive, truly receive that grace and forgiveness?
S2 (44:31):
Yeah. Well, I mean, and I and I don't mean
this in a, like, I mean this in a loving way,
but that kind of an attitude and thinking towards God, unfortunately,
is placing that that person on par with or equal
to God. And what I mean by that is, is
(44:53):
that person has made a determination that they themselves have
done something that is greater than God's ability to forgive them.
And when we properly understand who God is in light
of who we are, that kind of a perception begins
to change. And so nobody gets to go before God
(45:13):
and say, I'm too great of a sinner for you
to love me and you to forgive me, because then
God responds back is to say so are you saying
you're greater than me? Which I don't think we want
to make that kind of a a claim. Would you agree?
S1 (45:27):
Absolutely. Yeah. No. And it's and it's available right now if,
if you're listening and you fall in that category and
you've said that I don't care what's in your past,
I don't care what it is that you have done.
God wants to redeem you. He wants he has poured.
He's shown that in the cross and the empty tomb.
He wants you to come to himself. So if you
(45:49):
go to Chris Fabry, live at the top and the
bottom of the page, knowing Christ, how to know Christ,
you can click through there and you can see it'll
walk you through those steps. There's a video from I
believe doctor Mark Jobe has a video there that you
can that you can see that as well. Receive the
grace of God. And if you've been a Christian for
(46:10):
a long time and you feel like God is looking
over the portals of heaven, and he's shaking his head
even now, rest in his grace. Not in your performance,
but in the grace that he has. And get a
hold of this book because it will get a hold
of you. Grace Beyond Salvation by Doctor Kyle D Roberts,
(46:31):
our featured resource Chris Fabry live. Org Kyle, great to
meet you. Thanks for being here today.
S2 (46:36):
Thanks for having me. So nice to meet you.
S1 (46:39):
And if you have gone through some trauma in your life,
don't miss Lisa's story today on Chris Fabry live production
of Moody Radio, a ministry of Moody Bible Institute.
If you feel like God is disappointed with you, if
you struggle with that, that right now, even right now,
he's looking over the portal of Heaven and he's shaking
his head when he sees you. Today's conversation on Chris
Fabry Live is designed to help you see the truth,
and this is a personal topic I decided last week
(00:27):
we needed to have in relation to a conversation after
a program with a listener. I'll explain his conundrum and
we're going to meet author and professor Doctor Kyle D Roberts.
He believes from the very first verse in the Bible
to the last, there's a thread that holds humanity's story together,
and that thread is grace. There's no better subject to discuss,
(00:50):
and we're going to do it today at the Radio
Backyard Fence. Thank you for tuning to the program. From
the heart to the heart for the heart. Thanks to
our team behind the scenes, Ryan McConaughey is doing all
things technical. Trish is our producer. Ananda is answering your
calls today. We have some other team members. I won't
name them in toto because there's too many of them.
They are our back fence friends and partners who give
(01:12):
a gift to support us. And I get to choose
our thank you that we send each month this month.
Doctor Ryan Cook of Moody Bible Institute. We're going to
have him back on Thursday. His new book covers 150 psalms.
It's titled talking with God. And he says, The Psalms
teach us that we can be honest with the Almighty.
(01:32):
Brutally honest at times. And as you go through it,
I think it could transform your attitude about prayer. If
it's a struggle for you and who doesn't have a
struggle with prayer? Let me send you Ryan's book, Talking
with God. It's our thank you right now. Give a
gift of any size at eight 6695 or go to
Chris Fabry Live.com. Scroll down. You'll see how to be
(01:54):
a friend or partner right there. Chris. Fabry. Fabry. Chris
Fabry live or (866) 953-2279. Thank you for your support here
in the month of August. Doctor Kyle D Roberts is
the department chair and associate professor of biblical and theological
studies at Arizona Christian University in Glendale, Arizona, adjunct professor
(02:17):
at Dallas Theological Seminary, and pastor of the Minister in
Residence program at Scottsdale Bible Church. He and his wife, lolly,
live in Scottsdale, just down the road from yours truly.
They have three boys, and his latest book is our
featured resource. If you go to that website. Chris. Org
click through today's information you will see grace beyond salvation,
(02:41):
revealing God's love from Genesis to Revelation. Doctor Roberts, welcome
to the program. How are you doing today?
S2 (02:48):
Hey Chris, good to be here. Thanks for having me.
S1 (02:51):
I want to begin the conversation. And you okayed this, uh,
because last week there's been something on my mind. I
had a real world conversation about this topic, and it
was with a listener that not on the air, but
off the air, who has seen God do some amazing,
amazing things in his life. But now some things are
going wrong, and he feels like he promised God that
(03:13):
he would tell everybody about what God did for him,
the miraculous stuff that he did for him, and he
feels like God let him down, that he hasn't told everybody,
and he feels like he's kind of on the outside
looking in at the goodness of God. And as I
heard him and have kind of processed it further, it
felt like he believes in order to gain the favor
(03:34):
of God and to keep God's favor, he's got to
earn it. He has to keep his end of the bargain.
And that really isn't grace anymore. And that's one of
the things that I've been working through. And the other
thing that made me uncomfortable with the conversation was I
see myself in him. I can see subtle ways I
(03:55):
will get into a performance mindset and feel that God
must be massively angry or disappointed in me, or both.
And that's why I wanted to have you on today.
What would you say to anybody who is struggling with
what I just talked about?
S2 (04:13):
You know, theologically and this is I don't mean this
to be as provocative as it's going to sound, but
when you're dealing with a situation like this, which you
just personified it, I can self-identify with that. Clearly this
caller as well. And I'm sure there's many others listening
so we can relate to this. But one of the
(04:34):
truths about God is that just because we believe in
the Lord Jesus and we have been saved, it doesn't
mean that our life is going to be easy or easier.
And I'll even say this just because we're obedient, it
does not guarantee a successful outcome in a fallen world,
(04:54):
you know, affected by total depravity, that we were completely
affected by sin. We live in a sinful world. To
think that just by merely believing in Jesus, our our problems.
And I don't mean to oversimplify this, but that our
problems subside or that they go away is, I think, wrongly,
understanding what truly is the promise of God. Like you
(05:16):
had just talked about, the author from Moody Bible Institute
writing that book on all of the various Psalms and
Psalm 23 comes to mind. You know, David finds great comfort, yes,
in the green pastures, but he also finds comfort in
the midst of the valleys. And so really ultimately, though,
then you got to ask the question, well, why? Why
(05:38):
has he found comfort? And the answer isn't in relation
to a problem or suffering that is here or there
or gone. But really the answer is, is that he
finds comfort because he's with the good Shepherd. And so
when we are with God, when we are dwelling with God,
this is where we ultimately find our rest. Even in
(06:01):
the valleys, which makes no sense, especially to an observing world,
it would make no sense how we could possibly find
comfort in the midst of a valley. But theologically, according
to King David, he understood in the midst of the
valley I can still find peace, still find comfort. Why?
Because you are with me. Your rod and your staff,
(06:21):
they comfort me. And so I think that's ultimately what
I would tell that listener, is that, yes, I understand
how we can arrive there theologically or how we can,
you know, begin to think that way. However, sometimes we
need to tweak and modify our thinking a little bit
concerning God. And this is one of those examples, so
that we can begin to lean more into God's presence
(06:41):
in our life, even in the midst of the hard stuff.
And I think on the other end of it, and
I can speak of this as well, testimonials like on
the other end of it, these are my greatest stories
of God. Walking me through and taking me through some
really difficult periods in my life wasn't in that it
was absent of suffering, but it was in the midst
(07:02):
of the suffering. I was still able to say, see, look,
God is with me. And that's the promise that we
need to lean on the most.
S1 (07:10):
I think what you've just described is exactly what a
lot of people are going through. And oats for me,
you and I both live in Arizona and we're both
having air conditioning problems, so it's like this. And that's
a small thing compared with what some people are dealing with.
But it's a big thing, you know? It's a hard thing.
And part of it is not knowing. I don't know
(07:32):
what it's going to cost. I don't know how long
it's going to take. And you know, when we go
get this house cool or the car, if you're dealing
with that, it is the tension inside. It's like, God,
when I signed up for this Christian thing and when
I signed up to receive your Grace, I signed up
not to have this tension in my life. And yet,
as you said, the times of greatest growth, the times
(07:55):
of moving forward, you know, as a fiction writer, fiction
runs on tension. It runs on conflict. But I don't
want that in my life. And God seems massively disinterested
in taking the tension away from me. Do you feel
the same way?
S2 (08:11):
Oh, absolutely. And I think that's where. And look, you're
the heroes. Never leave the problem. The reason why we
we dub them heroes is because they've they've defeated whatever
the adversary is. And so I think part of just
being and living where we do and just enjoying the
freedoms that we have and, and kind of the American
(08:33):
way in many ways. Um, we're, we're more conditioned to
see success as the eradication of things, not in the
perseverance and going through something. You know, uh, one of
my favorite books That, um, to read the kids is
we're going on a bear hunt, and that's always one
(08:55):
that I will return to in my memory. In situations
like this, because, you know, they if you if you've
read this to your kids, you'll know what I'm talking about.
But it's like we're going on a bear hunt, we're
going to catch a big one. And they come to
all these obstacles. And then and then the kind of
the story goes, you know, we can't, you know, oh, no,
a big, you know, pile of mud. And it's like,
we can't go over it. We can't go under it.
(09:15):
We've got to go through it. And I think part
of the reality of the Christian faith is that we've
got to go through these things. But the great promise
from God is that as we go through it, we
will never, ever, ever be alone because he is with us.
He has promised by his grace, he has promised to
be with us.
S1 (09:34):
I haven't read that bear book, but I've lived it,
and I believe it. You know, because a rival, I
want completion. I want to get all this stuff behind me.
I don't want to deal with this anymore? God, you know,
why don't you fix all this stuff so I can arrive?
And he says I care too much about you to
(09:55):
let you experience this, this temporary completion that you really want.
And it's his presence that makes all the difference. Now,
here's what happened. As I was going through Kyle's book,
doctor Kyle D Roberts is our guest. D Roberts, uh,
grace Beyond salvation. This is going to turn the light
(10:15):
on for a number of people and maybe even the
conversation today. And it's going to do it in a
winsome way. You're going to laugh out loud as you
read some of these theological truths, and we're going to
jump into the grace of God when we return from
a brief time out. If you want to talk with him. (877) 548-3675.
(10:37):
Grace Beyond Salvation is our featured resource at Chris Fabry
Live more straight ahead.
S3 (10:53):
Make sure you check out.
S1 (10:54):
Kyle Robert's book, Grace Beyond Salvation Revealing God's Love from
Genesis to Revelation. And I see this theme coming over
the last couple of months. We talked about Colin Smith
and and driving through the Bible, and how many people
see the Old Testament as God is stern and he's
wrathful and he has vengeance. And then and then we
(11:15):
get to Jesus, and he's full of love, and he's
full of grace and mercy. And the same thing with
with this salvation, Jesus was full of grace and truth,
and his grace is just all over. His loving kindness
is there. But you go to the Old Testament, boy,
there's a lot of really hard stuff. And what Doctor
Roberts says is, no, the same thing is in in
(11:38):
Genesis as it is in the Gospels, as it is
in revelation, the grace of God. We're going to unpack that.
And he does so Winsomely in the book Grace. Beyond Salvation.
Just go to Chris Fabry live. Chris Fabry, give me
a definition. I've always heard God's riches at Christ's expense.
(11:59):
Learned that very early on. When you say grace, what
do you mean?
S2 (12:05):
Yeah. I mean, when I say grace. Well, actually, before
let me back up, I do think that for most people,
grace is understood as some measure of God's unmerited favor.
Receiving something that you do not deserve. And I do
think that the primary like lens that people understand grace
(12:25):
is through this lens of salvation, right? That we're saved
by grace and not by our works, so nothing of
our own doing. So we can't we have nothing to
proclaim in terms of justifying that we have been saved,
which is true, and it's beautiful. But I also think
that grace is so much more than merely something that
saves you. And so the context that I'm trying to
(12:47):
also help us to see what grace is capable of
is that grace is the very means by which we
dwell in God's presence. So prior to the fall, after
the fall, and the new heaven and the new earth,
the only way that a human being can proclaim any
kind of a presence or dwelling in God's presence, they're
doing so only by the grace of the Lord Jesus.
(13:11):
And so I'm trying to maintain this rich heritage, this
lens that we've looked at grace throughout so much of
our history as Christians, but also claims some of this
perspective as well in terms of, well, what does grace
look like? You know, apart from our salvation, meaning? Meaning
how do we dwell with God? And the only way
we're able to achieve that is, is through God's grace,
(13:33):
through the grace of the Lord Jesus.
S1 (13:35):
So that's why you say you need God's grace today
as much as you did from the moment that you
trusted in Christ fully and allowed him to come in
and change you from the inside out. You need that
same thing today. Maybe in a different, a little different way.
But you need to claim that over your life, right?
S2 (13:55):
Absolutely. Yeah. I'm I'm a sinner. And I will continue
to be until Jesus returns. And so there is a
dependency that I have upon the grace of the Lord Jesus.
So in order for me to dwell in God's presence. Um,
there it's not it's not predicated on this perfect life
or me having it all together, but that instead it's
(14:18):
my dependency on the grace of the Lord Jesus. So
I go to the Lord when I sin and I
ask for forgiveness and and that relationship is restored. Or
maybe that's with my kids or my wife or whomever
this might be. I'm still in need of grace today.
But here's what's kind of crazy is there's a time
period in which grace we weren't affected by the fall.
So there was a time when Adam and Eve, prior
(14:39):
to the fall, were dwelling with God. Well, I think
they were just as dependent on grace then as they
were immediately after the fall. And then I think for
you and I today, one, one day there's this promise
of the new heaven and the new earth, and we
will only dwell with God in the new heaven and
the new earth, being completely dependent on God's grace. We
(15:02):
just don't even know what that feels right like right now,
because we still live in a fallen world. So for
us to think in terms of what would life be
like if we weren't affecting or we weren't affected by
the fall, that's really hard to envision. But there will
be a time in which that will be our reality.
We just don't even know what that will, what that
will feel like or what that will be like.
S1 (15:22):
I was thinking about that over the weekend. Adam and Eve,
you know, doing life together outside of the garden, thinking back,
remember when, you know, wouldn't it have been better? Oh,
I wish we hadn't have made that mistake. But even
in that, you go all the way back and you
have some of these great conversation between you and your kids.
And I think it was your son who was talking
(15:42):
about Genesis one one that you see God's grace in
the creation account. In the beginning, God created the heavens
and the earth. How do you get grace out of that?
S2 (15:55):
Yeah. Well, so this is just kind of fun, you know? Yeah.
My my son came to me one day and said, hey,
he was learning how to read at the time, and
he said, can I read to you Genesis one one?
And I said, of course. And so he he opened
up his Bible and, you know, he was making sure
I was paying, you know, very close attention. And so
then he reads, he goes, in the beginning, God created
the heavens and the earth, and and I and I
(16:17):
just I encouraged him. I said, buddy, that's awesome. Like
good job. And then, you know, this is when my
kids regret that their dad is a theology professor, because
then then I say, well, um, it says there in
the beginning, God created the heavens and the new earth.
I said, well, who's God? And and Caden kind of
looked at me like, well, what do you what do
you mean, who's God? I said, well, who's God? Is
(16:37):
that the Trinity is that all three persons of the Trinity,
or is that one particular person of the Trinity? And
if it's one particular person of Trinity, well then. Well
then who is it? And, uh, he just kind of
looked at me all kind of like, well, I don't,
I don't know, dad, like, you know, who was it?
And I and I think for most people when they
read that, they think if anything, they think if it's
(16:59):
a person that it's that it's the that it's the father. Right?
The God of the Old Testament is predominantly the father.
And then, uh, and moves on to Jesus and maybe
the Holy Spirit, you know, down the road. But I
asked Caden, I said, hey, can I read to you
a verse in Colossians? And, uh, and so he said, yes.
And so I peel over to the right, and I
(17:21):
go to Colossians one, and I go to verse 15,
and it says, he is the image of the invisible God,
the firstborn of all creation. And I asked Caden, I said, well,
who's the he? He said, Jesus. I said, okay, bud. Well,
I'm going to can I put Jesus's name in there
instead of he or him? And he said, sure. So
I went back and I said, okay, so Jesus is
the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
(17:43):
And then for by Jesus all things were created in
heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or
dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through
Jesus and for Jesus. And so I turned back to
Genesis one one and I said, buddy, I think in
the beginning, God here is in reference to Jesus. And
(18:04):
Paul in Colossians is telling us so much. And he
kind of looked at me like, well, that's cool, but
I'm not totally convinced. And then that's when I went
over to the Gospel of John, and I read to
him chapter five, because in there Jesus and verse 39,
he makes two references to this greater witness, greater than
even John the Baptist. And Jesus says, you search. He's
(18:27):
talking to the Jews. He says, you search the scriptures
because you think that in them you have life. But
it is they that bear witness about me. Well, scriptures
there in in John five is in reference to the
Old Testament because the New Testament wasn't complete yet. So
there Jesus is saying, you search the scriptures, the Old Testament,
because you think that in them there is life, but
(18:49):
it's they, the Old Testament that bear witness about me.
And then Jesus doubles down on it a few verses
later and he says, if you believed Moses, you would
do well, because Moses wrote about me. And then I
go back to Genesis one one. And Moses wrote Genesis
one one. And so Paul is reading the Bible, just
(19:09):
like Jesus had taught him to read the Bible, which
was to look for Jesus. And I think that's kind
of one of our first great rites of passage. As
we're reading the Old Testament, we can't lose sight of
the permission that Jesus has given us to look for
him everywhere. And as a result of that, when we
go to Genesis one one, in the beginning, God I
think that's Jesus created the heavens and the earth. But
(19:33):
then you got to go, Okay, so there's Jesus. But
what about grace? It doesn't mention grace. Well, God's unmerited favor.
One of the. I think the very first instances of
grace in the Bible is with the word created in
Genesis one one. In the beginning, God, Jesus created grace,
(19:53):
the heavens and the earth. Why do I say grace?
Because what we find in Genesis 126 and 27 is
that creation is a gift given to mankind, so that
they might rule and have authority, and have dominion over
all that God had created. And so you get this.
Like Adam and Eve did nothing to deserve this. This
(20:13):
was given to them as a gracious gift. And so
in the beginning, God, Jesus created grace, the heavens and
the earth. And then this is what I love is
then you get to the very end of the Bible,
and this is revelation 22, verse 21. The very last
verse of the Bible says, As and the grace of
(20:35):
the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen. And so what
you find in the very first verse of the Bible
is the grace of the Lord Jesus. And then sure enough,
as you can only imagine, right, God ends the Bible
with the grace of the Lord Jesus, which and then
in turn kind of reveals this massive meta narrative. This,
this thread which unites the whole Bible together, is this
(20:57):
beautiful depiction of the grace of the Lord Jesus. And
to me.
S1 (21:02):
I love it.
S2 (21:04):
And yeah. And to me, I just there's something I
think sometimes we've lost the art of just appreciating just
how beautiful the Word of God is. We study it,
we memorize it. But sometimes we don't just appreciate just
how intricate and thoughtful and purposeful Scripture is. And here
all along, God has been in this pursuit of us
(21:25):
to dwell with us, but also to reveal the grace
of the Lord Jesus to us as well.
S1 (21:30):
And that's what you unpack in the book Grace Beyond Salvation. Again,
it's our featured resource at. Doctor Kyle. Dr. Roberts is
with us at the back fence today. I want to
go back to something you said, though a little bit earlier.
And that is as I'm I'm processing this. I think
(21:50):
a lot of times in people's lives, we look at
salvation and we see for by grace you say you've
been saved through faith, not of your own doing. It's
a gift of God. Get that. Not a result of works. No, don't.
Don't want to boast. But we stop there and we say, okay,
salvation is something that I receive and God starts to
(22:13):
do the work. And now I got to pick up
the other. I got to jump on the teeter totter
or pick up the the wheelbarrow or whatever it is,
whatever metaphor you use. And now it's up to me.
Now it's up to me to stay in that relationship
with him so that he will like me, so that
he will give his favor to me. And one of
(22:38):
the things you say in the book is for God.
A relationship with him looks like rest. Go back to
Psalm 23. But that, for many Christians, is a foreign
concept other than thinking of the Sabbath. You know, I'm
not going to do any work on this day or
to go to church and do a lot, but rest
(22:59):
is that's that's like a day a week, if that.
You say that this is a, a life long, not pursuit,
but something that God gives to us. We don't have
to be on the treadmill of activity doing to make
sure that he likes us. Today. We can rest in
his grace. Explain that.
S2 (23:21):
Yeah. So, you know, we just we just talked about
Genesis one one, and then we go to revelation 2221
and we we see this thread of the grace of
the Lord Jesus. And then it does beg a question.
At some point you go, okay, but why? Like what?
Like why is it the grace of the Lord Jesus? Like,
(23:42):
what's the purpose of this? And I think this is
one of humanity's great questions that we just continually ask ourselves. Well,
I think I think later on in Genesis, um, God
actually reveals to us the. Why? Because at the very
end of creation, on the seventh day, it says in
Genesis two one it says, thus the heavens and the
(24:05):
earth were finished, and all the host of them. And
on the seventh day God finished his work that he
had done, and he rested on the seventh day from
all the work that he had done. So God blessed
the seventh day and made it holy, because on it
God rested from all his work that he had done
in creation. This seventh day is unique because all of
(24:26):
the other days of creation. There was the pronouncement that
there was evening, and then there was morning. And then
whatever day it was on the seventh day, though, there's
no pronouncement of a conclusion. It's as though the seventh
day was meant to just continue on forevermore. And the
reality for us on that seventh day was that we
(24:49):
were to rest with God as God was with and
within his creation. So God didn't create and then retreat
to some throne, but that instead God chose to rest
with us. And one of the words I love in
Genesis two one, two and three that we unpack in
the book is that this word rest in Genesis two one, two,
(25:13):
and three. That word rest also means dwell. So part
of the reality, this proclamation on the seventh day is
that yes, God is going to rest. But inherent to
rest is this idea of dwelling so that we are
dwelling with and within this creation that God has made,
and the Creator himself. Which to me is absolutely beautiful
(25:37):
because it sets the tone for our purpose. So if
you've ever wondered, well, what am I doing here? Well,
you were created to dwell with God, to be at
rest with him.
S1 (25:46):
That's Kyle to Roberts. We'll continue with our conversation on
what a great topic. The grace of God. Straight ahead.
We're talking about the grace of God today. And this
(26:07):
is something that theologically, you can believe in your head
and you can have proof texts about this and you
can say, well, this is what grace is, and this
is what God does, and you can you can believe that.
You can think that. But then down into about about
a foot south of that is your heart And do
you really feel loved by God? Do you really feel
(26:30):
that God's grace is changing you? And that's a question
that I have for you. How is God's grace changing
you right now? Or how is God's grace changing the
way that you look at the situation that you're in,
the struggle that you're having, the suffering that you're going
through is your prayer? God, take this away. And if
he doesn't, then you must have done something wrong or
(26:52):
he hasn't heard you. Is it only take this away? Or,
as doctor De Roberts has said here today, the presence
of God in the middle of the struggle is evidence
of the grace of God in your life. So I'm
going to give you our phone number if if this
(27:12):
is clicking, if you were thinking, if you're driving down
the road and you're looking at the radio, how do
you know I'm going through this? We don't we don't
know that, but God does. 87754. 5483675. Or maybe you're
having a hard time believing that the grace of God
could save or forgive even you. He could forgive all
(27:37):
the other people, and even the bad people out there,
and the people who are having all this, that and
the other thing. But you've done something. I mean, a
lot of those people who say, I've done something, God
could never forgive me for this. Is that you? (877) 548-3675.
One of the things that you talk about in the book, Kyle,
(27:57):
is the phrase, by the grace of God. Uh, and
we kind of throw this. Oh, yeah, by the grace
of God, I. And then fill in the blank. Um,
can you tell me what that means and what it
doesn't mean?
S2 (28:11):
Yeah. I think what I my hope is, is that
some of the, the shift in our thinking about God
is not just the moments in which we proclaim, you know, okay,
so I get to the gas station in time and
I didn't run out of gas. And so it's by
the grace of God or, you know, I you know,
(28:33):
I've been praying earnestly for a job so I can
support my family. And so, by the grace of God,
I receive a job that that provides for our needs.
I mean, those are examples of the grace of God,
but just but technically speaking, everything is by the grace
of God. And so our whole life, and this is
the perspective that I'm hoping, is that, yes, in those
(28:55):
moments we would acknowledge this is but by the grace
of God, but that also in the unseen things. So
even in the ways in which God doesn't necessarily reveal, uh,
what we perceive to be our desired outcomes, to be
that we can still proclaim with our faith that that
by the grace of God he will provide, by the
grace of God he will sustain. By the grace of God,
(29:18):
he will draw me into his presence because so much
I think, um, of our relationship with God is, is
is determined by the outcome. So we pray for we
pray for a and then when we receive a, um,
this is how we then proclaim, okay, this is but
by the grace of God, well, sometimes we're going to
pray for a and we we might not receive a
(29:40):
for a while, or maybe we never do well in
that moment. What I don't want us to think is,
is that God doesn't love us, or we don't know
how to pray, or that God's grace isn't real, but
that instead we have to trust that this is that
this is who God is, that that this was his answer.
This was his desired answer, given this circumstance, but that
(30:01):
we can still be dependent on him. So let me
circle all the way back around when I'm talking with
my university students. I never want to just set them
up for failure in terms of just you pray for
it and you're going to receive it. Sometimes my job
as the professor is to sit with them as they're
wrestling with the reality that maybe the answer is no.
(30:24):
Or maybe it's just not right now. And so you're
in this waiting and this patient and this kind of
faithful posture before the Lord. I would much rather them
be there than make the pronouncement that they don't have
the gift of prayer, or that they're not good at praying,
or that somehow they've sinned. And so God's ignoring them. Um,
(30:45):
it might just very well be that that we're just
in one of those moments where we have to wait. Yes.
S1 (30:51):
And and there's where the presence comes in. The other
thing that you make clear is that God's grace is
is not like karma, because some people will say, well,
by the grace of God, and that means they've had
some spiritual luck or almost a, a spiritual knock on wood,
you know, by the grace of God. And I hope
(31:12):
it doesn't happen, you know, continually. It's not karma, right?
S2 (31:18):
No it's not. And and that is a perception. This
is going to affect your prayer life. And this is
going to affect your relationship with God. That that God
isn't in a responsive posture to us. I mean, what
we have to understand is, is that God is good,
God is merciful. God is gracious. God is loving. God
is just right. God is these things irrespective of any
(31:41):
kind of a of a circumstance that you might find
yourself in. It always just works to our advantage when
the when the outcome is positive, we think that we've
contributed in some small way to whatever that positive outcome is,
because there's a reward, perhaps on the other side of that,
or what some people perceive to be as just karma
(32:03):
or good luck. But in reality, what we have to
what we have to run in is who is God?
Like we have to know that truth. Who is God?
And when we understand who God is now, we can
make that kind of a truth claim in light of
whatever we might be experiencing, experiencing circumstantially so that now
(32:25):
God isn't just karma because so many of us are
walking around thinking something bad's happened to us because I
did something bad. But see what in that moment, what
we're doing is, is we're saying somehow my sin is
greater than God's ability to forgive me, or that my
sin is somehow greater than God's gracious ability to forgive me.
(32:46):
And I don't, I don't we don't see that anywhere
in the Bible that that that that's how this works.
S1 (32:51):
Well, and that you can prove that by by showing
how far God went to accomplish that on the cross
and the empty tomb. Right?
S2 (33:03):
Yes. Yeah. And there's no greater example. I don't I mean,
than God's grace than through through the cross that this
is in a fallen world, right? I mean, for God
to enter our world, right? The incarnation. That's very dwelling language, right?
So for God to come and to dwell amongst us, uh,
and then to live than to die, and then three
(33:25):
days later to rise from the dead so that we
might have a relationship with him, so that we might
dwell with him forever and ever and ever. Um, that
is that's quite remarkable. I mean, that that is the
ultimate trump card concerning whatever circumstances we might be going
through at the moment. But I also want to be
very honest. That doesn't that doesn't make what we're going
(33:47):
through right now and the suffering that we're enduring right now.
In some ways, it doesn't make it any easier, right?
I mean, so suffering is still going to happen. We're
going to pray for people to live, but they're going
to die. We're going to pray for an illness to
go away. But it won't. But we also hold out
hope that there's that there's hope in the future, right?
That that this isn't the end. And so some, some
(34:09):
part of our reality that we rest in is that, yes,
we dwell with God right now, but there's still a
completed kind of rest yet to come. That we're longing
for and we're looking to. And that's why, at the
very end of revelation, John is actually being taught to pray,
Lord Jesus, come back now. Like, let's like come back,
(34:31):
return so that this is all done away with so
that the pain and the suffering is no more.
S1 (34:37):
The place that I always go to for that in
the life of Jesus is that the tomb of Lazarus
and and the weeping that he does, the, the, the
humanity that comes out there, that those weren't crocodile tears.
He didn't say, hey, guys, watch this. You know, don't
cry anymore because look at what's going to happen. It's like, no,
(34:59):
he he saw the what the cost of death. He
saw the cost of sin. He saw the weeping of
the the sisters who loved Lazarus and Jesus. He felt
it because he loved Lazarus as well. It was a
totally authentic human reaction. And yet at the same time,
(35:20):
the resurrection of Lazarus happened there as well. I want
to see how you're responding to this. Let me go
to Eduardo in Chicago. Eduardo, why did you call today?
S4 (35:32):
Hi. Yes, I just wanted to make a comment and
kind of sort of a question, I guess. Um, so
my belief is the Bible states that grace is unwavering
and undeserved. Correct?
S1 (35:47):
Yes, yes. Undeserved. Unmerited. Yeah.
S4 (35:51):
Okay. So that's telling me that grace has to be
received by faith and not by works. Yes. Am I right?
S2 (36:01):
Yes.
S4 (36:03):
Okay, so since grace is undeserved and received through faith
and not by works, then. Whether you commit sins willingly
or unwillingly, the fall from grace depends on your repentance
towards God. Correct.
S1 (36:25):
Explain what you mean by that. Before we say before
we agree with you, uh, explain that last part of it.
S4 (36:33):
So what I mean is, like you commit a sin, uh, willingly,
just because you know, you can't repent. That is, like,
not where grace is involved. Grace is involved where your
sin is committed. And then you realize it and you
(36:56):
repent because you realize that is not the step that
you should have taken. But in that situation, you know,
with overwhelming feelings. It just came out.
S2 (37:07):
Yeah. Eduardo, that's a great point that you bring up.
And that's actually that was one of I tried to
keep that question somewhere in my head and obviously near
to my heart as I wrote this book, because what
I didn't want, Eduardo, is I didn't want somebody to
read this book and then somehow draw a conclusion that
(37:30):
grace was just this means or this mechanism to go,
you can go live however you'd like, and then God
will just forgive you by the grace of God, right?
Because of his his work there on the cross. And
so then it kind of gives you a free pass
to go live. And one of the areas that we
unpack actually, because of this is first, John, it's a
(37:51):
little tiny letter written by John the Apostle John. And
in that he's talking about walking in the light, but
he's talking about walking the light, because the idea here
is that they're actually in the darkness because of sin.
And so the way in which one walks in the light,
even after they sin, is they confess that sin. And
so then that's where you kind of get that somewhat
(38:12):
recognizable verse there in first John one nine where it says,
if we confess our sins, he's faithful and just to
forgive us of our sins and to cleanse us from
all unrighteousness. So part of that reality is, is, okay,
so here I've sinned. I confess that sin and then
God forgives us. One of the things that John does
is it's almost like Eduardo. He's he's he's speaking to
(38:37):
even what you're asking about and commenting on and that
I was concerned with as well, because but at the
very beginning of the next chapter, so right after first
John one nine, John writes, my little children, I'm writing
these things to you. What are these things? Well, it's
how to get back to the light. Like how do
I restore my fellowship with God? So I'm writing these
(38:59):
things to you. And then he says so that you
may not sin. So John is even trying to say, hey,
I'm writing these things not to give you a free
pass to sin. I'm actually writing these things so that
you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we
have an advocate with the father, Jesus Christ, the Righteous one.
So John, in this weird way, I don't know if
(39:20):
weird is the right word, but in John in this way,
what he's doing is he's going, I'm actually teaching you
how to confess your sins so that you might restore
your relationship with God. And he's even hoping that as
he teaches this, it actually motivates the Christian not to
sin more. But he's saying, I'm writing these things so
that you may not sin. Yes. Which I think's which
(39:41):
I think is pretty remarkable. But we still have to
deal with that reality.
S1 (39:45):
Here's what it leads us to. Is, is that rest
that you were talking about? If I know that. And
Paul writes this about this as well. You know, sin
more so that grace can abound. No, no, you're not
getting it. Uh, so, Eduardo, I want you to hang on.
I'd love to send you a copy of this book. Uh,
we'll get your information and put it in the mail
(40:06):
to your grace beyond salvation, revealing God's Love from Genesis
to Revelation by Doctor Kyle D Roberts. You can find
out more about it. We have a link right there, Chris.
Moore straight ahead. You have received God's grace at salvation.
(40:35):
Now what? That is what we're talking about here today
at the radio backyard fence with Doctor Kyle D Roberts.
You can find out more about him. He is department
chair and associate professor of biblical and theological studies at
Arizona Christian University in Glendale. And there's more grace beyond salvation,
revealing God's love from Genesis to Revelation. It's our featured
(40:58):
resource at Chris. Chris. Org. Uh, hearkening back to what
Eduardo said, here's a quote from the book. God's grace
was never intended to condone sin, but he did intend
grace to endure our sinfulness and triumph over it. So
(41:19):
that is part of the presence and the process, the
sanctification process that we go through when many people will simply,
you know, they sin. They did something that they didn't
want to do, and they did it again. And they
feel condemnation about that. Um, what you're saying is the
grace of God is not condoning that, but it is
(41:42):
bringing you back into that relationship and that forgiveness that
God is freely offering. Right?
S2 (41:49):
That's exactly right. Yeah. And I one of clearly it's
not condoning sin, but part of the reality living in
a fallen world. Right? So we're living in a world
totally and completely affected by the fall sin nature, we've
got to at least acknowledge the reality that none of
(42:10):
us will will achieve sinlessness. So that means when we sin,
what are we supposed to do? Well, we can hide it.
We can avoid it. Or we can confess that sin right?
And lean upon the grace of the Lord Jesus for
that forgiveness of our sin. Receive that and then restore
our relationships. And so, so much of this enduring of
(42:33):
sinfulness that I speak of is, is simply just to allow.
What I don't want is any reader or listener to
this radio show to think that somehow what they've done
or who they are is unforgivable by God. That God
somehow does not want them, does not want a relationship
(42:53):
with them, but that instead, I mean, part of the
beauty of the grace of God is that that I mean,
test it, try it. I mean, God will. I mean,
show me one time in the Bible where somebody humbly
goes before the Lord and he receives that, um, humility
in return extends humiliation to that person. Like God receives them,
(43:13):
he welcomes them home. And that's what's so maddening. I
think sometimes as believers, and we even talk about in
the book Jonah and his attitude towards Nineveh. And then
we talk about the prodigal son and the older brother's
attitude towards his younger brother. And thankfully, as God has
sovereignly made a decision to not allow us as human
(43:37):
beings to administer God's grace. So I don't get a
say in who receives God's grace or how, but that
instead that is God's sovereign decision. And then we end
up just seeing in the Bible how God has chosen
us to extend his grace to us. And it's remarkable.
S1 (43:54):
Can you talk to the person you know? We've talked
about grace to somebody who's listening, who says, I hear
you Christians talking about grace and I have a problem
with that, because you think that anybody who's done people
on death row right now can just say one prayer
and everything is, you know, everything is hunky dory. What
about all the people? ET cetera. ET cetera. Or the
person who says the same thing I brought up a
(44:16):
little earlier. You don't know my life. You don't know
what I've done. I believe God's grace is available for
you because you sound like a pretty good person. I'm not.
How does a person receive, truly receive that grace and forgiveness?
S2 (44:31):
Yeah. Well, I mean, and I and I don't mean
this in a, like, I mean this in a loving way,
but that kind of an attitude and thinking towards God, unfortunately,
is placing that that person on par with or equal
to God. And what I mean by that is, is
(44:53):
that person has made a determination that they themselves have
done something that is greater than God's ability to forgive them.
And when we properly understand who God is in light
of who we are, that kind of a perception begins
to change. And so nobody gets to go before God
(45:13):
and say, I'm too great of a sinner for you
to love me and you to forgive me, because then
God responds back is to say so are you saying
you're greater than me? Which I don't think we want
to make that kind of a a claim. Would you agree?
S1 (45:27):
Absolutely. Yeah. No. And it's and it's available right now if,
if you're listening and you fall in that category and
you've said that I don't care what's in your past,
I don't care what it is that you have done.
God wants to redeem you. He wants he has poured.
He's shown that in the cross and the empty tomb.
He wants you to come to himself. So if you
(45:49):
go to Chris Fabry, live at the top and the
bottom of the page, knowing Christ, how to know Christ,
you can click through there and you can see it'll
walk you through those steps. There's a video from I
believe doctor Mark Jobe has a video there that you
can that you can see that as well. Receive the
grace of God. And if you've been a Christian for
(46:10):
a long time and you feel like God is looking
over the portals of heaven, and he's shaking his head
even now, rest in his grace. Not in your performance,
but in the grace that he has. And get a
hold of this book because it will get a hold
of you. Grace Beyond Salvation by Doctor Kyle D Roberts,
(46:31):
our featured resource Chris Fabry live. Org Kyle, great to
meet you. Thanks for being here today.
S2 (46:36):
Thanks for having me. So nice to meet you.
S1 (46:39):
And if you have gone through some trauma in your life,
don't miss Lisa's story today on Chris Fabry live production
of Moody Radio, a ministry of Moody Bible Institute.
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