April 22, 2025 • 46 mins
Whether people admit it or not, we all hunger for divine love. So why is it so hard for us to share the message of what God did for us through Christ? Pastor and author Dr. Derwin Gray says we need to be "lit up with love." When your life is bathed in the mercy and grace of God, you won't be able to contain that life-giving message. Hear the encouragement on Chris Fabry Live.
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Lit Up with Love
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:05):
Ever have this happen to you? You're talking with a friend,
maybe a family member, somebody you really care about, and
you sense this opening. There's a space and you feel
like this is it. When you can share what Jesus
has done in your life authentically, it's not some canned
speech or something that you memorized a long time ago.
It's just from your heart. But instead of walking through
(00:29):
that open door, you hold back. You don't say anything.
Why do we do that? What is the fear that
we give into? If you have ever had that happen,
and right now you're feeling guilty about the memory, don't
listen to the voice of shame and guilt I want
you to hear. Doctor Derwin Gray and what he's going
to say. Because the key to overcoming whatever is holding
(00:52):
you back from sharing your heart with others is not
trying to be more bold. It's not trying to be
stronger in your faith. All of those are good things.
The key to sharing Christ with others is coming up
straight ahead on Chris Fabry live. The program from the
heart for the heart to the heart. Thanks for making
time for a conversation from the heart today. Thanks to
(01:12):
Ron McConaughey doing all things technical. Tricia is our producer.
Deb Solomon's in the chair today and Tahira will be
answering your calls. Also, thank you friends and partners. You
are hearing this conversation today because people have reached out
in support of the program. And for a few more days,
we're going to send you a little resource I think
will make a big difference. A Practical Guide for Praying
(01:35):
Parents is not a text book. It is a primer.
That's what Doctor Erwin Lutzer says, meaning this is how
you do it. This is how you pray for that prodigal.
This is how you persist in prayer and not give up.
This is how you pray God's Word to him, so
that you're hanging on to the hope that he has
(01:57):
given you through his word. That's what this little book
will help you do. And if there's somebody on your
heart today and you've been praying and praying and you
feel like you're praying the same thing, let me send
you a copy of A Practical Guide for Praying parents.
It leads you through. It's a day by day thing
where you're able to pray and find scripture. So excited
(02:17):
to send it to you for only a few more days.
86 695 Fabbri is our number (866) 953-2279. Or if you
go to Chris Fabbri. Org. Scroll down the homepage right there.
You'll see it by Doctor Lutzer. A Practical guide for
praying parents. Thanks for your support at the back fence. Chris. Fabbri. Fabbri.
(02:40):
Chris Fabbri, Livorno. He's back. Doctor Derwin Gray, founding and
lead pastor of Transformation Church just outside of Charlotte, North Carolina.
He played professional football for the Colts of Indianapolis and
the Panthers of Carolina. He and his wife, Vicki, have
been married since 1992. Let's see. That's about 33 years.
How in the world? They have two adult children. He's
(03:03):
written a number of books. The latest is Lit Up
with love. It is the featured resource today. Chris Fabry,
doctor gray Derwin, welcome back. How are you doing today?
S2 (03:15):
Hey, I'm doing great. How are you doing?
S1 (03:17):
I am so excited to talk with you. I've looked
at your name on the schedule, and I'm always excited because,
you know, you got the football thing going and you
always have something going on at your church. As a
matter of fact, when we talked just before the program,
you said your voice is almost recovered. So tell me
about this last weekend. This is kind of like the
the big the Super Bowl in a sense for for
(03:40):
your church.
S2 (03:42):
Yeah. You know, uh, Good Friday and Easter are always
a time for us really to, to contemplate and reflect
on the greatness and the goodness of Jesus and his
redemptive work for the glory of God by the Spirit's power.
And so between our two locations, we had eight services
in two days and our three days good Friday, Saturday.
(04:05):
Then multiple services on Sunday. And our people came prepared
to celebrate Christ. Uh they are. Our church is a
community of missionaries. We believe that all of us are
everyday missionaries. And so we're grateful for, you know, record attendance,
but also that our people were infectious. They went viral
(04:28):
with sharing their faith. You know, prayer, care, share. And
so we are in a flourishing season. God has grown
us immensely, uh, over the years. Uh, people want Jesus. Uh,
they don't want a self-help program. Uh, they they don't
want a political Jesus. They want the Jesus of the
(04:48):
Bible who is Lord and King, uh, who is doing
a cosmic, redemptive, transformative work to where we don't use
him as a means to an end. He is the end.
He is the goal. Treasuring him. And so we're seeing, uh,
God do some amazing things, and we're grateful.
S3 (05:07):
So do you see.
S1 (05:08):
In the cult, the broader culture as well as in
the church? And there in North Carolina, do you see
a renewed hunger that you haven't seen in years past?
S2 (05:22):
Uh, the one thing that I would say that I'm
seeing more of is twofold. I'm seeing more teenagers invite
their parents to church. So we're seeing that happen tons.
And I'm also seeing people who are hungry for, uh,
an intentionally multi-ethnic church that reflects revelation five nine of
(05:44):
every nation, tribe and tongue. Uh, I think there are
a lot of Christians who are tired of the political partisanship.
They're tired of the ethnic division. And, um, they want
to participate in a community that is centered on Christ
that teaches us how to love beyond our political and
(06:06):
ethnic differences. Because Jesus did say, you will know my
disciples because they love one another. But it's fascinating to
see the number of teenagers that serve at our church
who invite their friends and who are also, like I said,
inviting their parents. Like there's a lot of parents who
are coming to faith because their children have come to faith.
(06:27):
So at our church, if you're in sixth grade or above,
you're in worship with us. You're serving alongside of adults.
And so teenagers and pre-teens are not the church of Tomorrow.
They're the church of now. We don't call them out.
We call them up into their destiny as redeemed people. Um,
it's it's it's as much their church as it is
(06:49):
our church. And I think they respond to that in
a way that says, wow, these older people believe that
Christ can do great work in me. And they're responding
to it.
S3 (06:59):
Yes.
S1 (06:59):
You've just given me about 50 questions to follow up.
It is so rich what you've just talked about. And
I think the part of the answer, and you've written
about it in the new book, part of the answer
is that people are tired of therapeutic deism. They're tired
of three step Christianity. They're tired of trying to modify behavior.
(07:22):
They want the kind of transformation that we see from
death to life in the first century. They want to
see that, you know what happened in the book of acts,
that that kind of transformation where you take Peter, who was,
you know, down in the dumps because he had betrayed Jesus.
And look at what he's saying just a few weeks later,
(07:44):
and how bold he is. Something happened to him that
can't be explained in any other way other than the
Spirit of God?
S2 (07:51):
Yeah. Yeah. You know, and, uh, so, you know, Chris,
you you raised some really good points, and, uh, I
would I would be amiss not to explain the terms.
Therapeutic deism, in essence, means that there's a God who
wound a clock. He's not really involved. And if he is,
it's kind of to make you feel good. Behavior modification is.
(08:14):
Here's the things you must do to fix your life. Um,
and three steps to a better Life. All of those
things are really found in what's called the enlightenment. And
it really starts with how do I fix my life?
And what my conviction is, is that there's only one
eternal carpenter who has the capacity to fix the human soul,
(08:37):
and his name is Jesus. And he does it from
the inside out. And I think people are drawn to
a God who says, I have seen you. I know
everything about you. I know the depths of your sin.
But I want you anyway. Through the blood of my
son and his resurrection, I now see you. As I
(08:59):
see him. You are united to him. He's the big deal.
He's the star of the show. It's his power. It's
his life. The only thing he asks of us is
to trust him. And so we're seeing people hunger for
the gospel of grace that transforms you into a person
(09:20):
of holiness, which ultimately is a person of love and integrity.
And so I think one of the greatest distractions of
Satan is not from outside of the church. I think
it's from inside of the church. And I think it's
a lot of fake gospel that's basically telling people. Here
(09:44):
are five ways to modify your life to fix your life.
Do this. Do you know it's a bunch of dudes
versus what is Christ done? And how do I live
from the done and complete work of Christ through the
Holy Spirit's power? And it's a life of faith. It's
a life of trusting. It's a life of contemplating what
(10:07):
Jesus has actually done for us and in us. Like
it is mind blowing that right here, right now, every
follower of Christ in the world that is truly reborn.
When God the Father sees you, he sees the righteousness
of Christ. He fully accepts you as Christ. He he,
he not only has forgiven your sin, forgotten your sin.
(10:27):
We are alive in Jesus. We are temples of the
Holy Spirit. We are the hands and feet of Christ.
We are holy and blameless and pure. And all of
that is because of what Jesus has done. We don't
add one cubit to it by anything that we do.
Once again, we live from the power and love of another.
(10:48):
And that another's name is Jesus.
S1 (10:50):
Mhm.
S3 (10:51):
I think you've touched.
S1 (10:52):
On the heart of it and I just wrote this
down as you're talking. What we want is clickbait Christianity.
We want the three steps, the four steps, the five secrets,
the you know, the key to this. I even said
that in the in the beginning I said the key.
This is kind of as a tease to what we
were going to talk about today. Let me go back
(11:14):
up to what I said. Yeah. Here it is. The
key to overcoming whatever is holding you back from sharing
your heart with others. The key in sharing Christ with
others is and I think that's what Derwin has written about.
It's it's not you toeing the line or you not
feeling guilty for having not shared with somebody. You know,
(11:37):
last week or last year. The key is to be
so lit up with love, as Derwin Gray says, that
you want to give the good news to a gospel
starved world. So that's what we're going to talk about today.
And if you had a situation in your own life
where you've you've backed away from sharing, I want you
(11:57):
to listen. This is encouraging. There is freedom here that
Derwin is talking about. Go to the website Chris fabry.org.
You'll see our featured resource lit up with love. We'll
talk about it straight ahead on Moody Radio. I'm so
(12:20):
excited to talk with Derwin Gray today at the radio.
Backyard fence featured resource lit up with love becoming good
news people to a gospel starved world. He serves at
Transformation Church outside of Charlotte, North Carolina, spent several years
in the NFL. God grabbed a hold of him in
the NFL. Maybe we'll get to that story, but in
(12:42):
throughout the book, and I told Derwin this in the
in the break, there is almost this poetic thing that
he has going all throughout the book when you're lit
up with love blank. We could spend the rest of
the the hour just talking about the fill in the blank,
but here are some things he says at the beginning.
When you're lit up with love, you know that only
God saves you. Reach out to others in love and confidence,
(13:05):
recognizing the results are up to him. When you're lit
up with love, you embrace evangelism as a process, not
a one time event. When you're lit up with love,
you see evangelism as an eternal investment. When you let
up without love, you understand that we are playing the
(13:25):
long game. And I would add, and you probably say
this another place. When you're lit up with love, you
want to remain connected with the source of that love,
meaning God's communication to us, his word. When you when
you're lit up with love. It's that word that lights
you up. Now take off on that, Derwin.
S2 (13:47):
Amen. I mean, that's the whole premise of the book.
Is in order for there to be fire, you have
to have oxygen, right? Well, Jesus is the oxygen that
continuously lights us up so that we can be lit
up with love. Um, this this entire book, what makes
it different is, uh, in my perspective, most evangelism books
(14:10):
are how to techniques, um, how to do this, how
to do that. This book is really about being ravaged
by the love of Jesus. And if I could talk
to the reader or the audience now, uh, I just
want to encourage us. Uh, so much of American Christianity
(14:31):
is actually not about worshiping Jesus. It's actually about using
him to fulfill your end or whatever your goal is.
And so, uh, we'll pray to him. But instead of
actual prayers, it's more like formulas and techniques. It's more
like asking for stuff versus no, I want you. I
(14:52):
want to seek first the kingdom of God and His
righteousness and believe that you're going to provide what I need.
And so the premise of my ministry, my life, the
way I read scripture, the way I wrote, lit up
with love is this you were created by God for
God to know God, to make him known in every
(15:12):
single facet of life, that there is nothing better than
being loved by Jesus. And I think Christians spend too
much time on what they need to do, what they've
tried to do, what they failed at, what their goals are.
And instead of looking into the eyes of Jesus and
letting him lavish you and love you because God is love,
(15:33):
and what that love does is it begins to transform
us into a people who say, not my will, but
thy will be done. And it's amazing when we surrender
to the will of God, we're surrendering to a friend.
But we're also surrendering to blessings that we never, ever
thought was possible. If I could just testify for a moment, I,
I didn't I didn't grow up going to church. I
(15:56):
grew up as a compulsive stutterer. Um, I scored a
16 on my act to get into college and accept
my football scholarship. Today, uh, I'm a preacher to preachers
around the world. It's an incredible church. Uh, this is
my ninth book that I've written. I have a doctrine
in New Testament. Like, how do you go from not
going to church, not liking books, not being very smart
(16:19):
to where you are. There's a God who loves you.
God just doesn't save your soul. He saves the whole
of us. And when God has done that, it is
hard to not want other people to experience the grace
of God. So let me put it to you very clearly.
A lack of evangelism is a lack of satisfaction in Jesus.
(16:41):
The more we're satisfied in Jesus, the more we are
connected to Jesus. Not because we work for it, not
because we earned it, but simply because of his grace.
It wasn't something we earned. It was a result of
our new birth in Christ. Right? And so as a
result of that, we begin to be ravaged by his
mercy and his kindness. And then we see other people
(17:04):
and go, oh, my Savior could do for them what
he's done for me.
S1 (17:10):
Isn't that what happened in the first century? You know,
when when the disciples were following Jesus, they they had
this idea of, you know what? When? Hosanna. Hosanna to
the King who's coming in. You know the victory. The
Romans are going to be put down. The king's going
to be on the throne. They had their idea of
who Jesus was and what they wanted. And then, you know,
(17:33):
here comes the cross and here comes the grave. And
it's like this. This is not working out like we
thought we thought you were going to do. Do all
of these things. And. And it seems like you got
a different plan here. And it's that resurrection morning. The
light comes on. It's still a little dim in their
(17:54):
hearts because they didn't understand, but they start to understand.
Wait a minute. He had a different agenda here. And
it changes the trajectory of their lives.
S2 (18:04):
Yeah, absolutely. Uh, they wanted Jesus to kick the Romans
out of the promised Land, and Jesus wanted to save
the Romans. Romans. Because God made a promise to Abraham
that through him all the nations would be blessed. It's amazing.
Christians spend so much time trying to leave earth. And
Jesus said, do on earth as it is in heaven.
(18:27):
The goal of every first century Jewish follower of the
Messiah was for the Kingdom of God to be established
on Earth. And I think that's what's the beautiful thing
of the good news is that not only saves you
for eternity, but it makes you fit for the present. And, um, yeah,
you know, even even as we think about Peter, you
(18:49):
had mentioned Peter a little while ago. What was it
that motivated Peter's heart? You know, Peter sees Jesus on
the beach grilling some fish. And three times Jesus says
to him, do you love me? Do you love me?
Do you love me? And that reverses the three times
that Jesus betrayed Peter. So what?
S3 (19:11):
Peter betrayed Jesus. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, we're just making sure.
S2 (19:16):
Thank you. Where Peter betrayed Jesus. So he reverses that
by saying, do you love me? And he says, three times.
How could you not want to follow Jesus when you've
been forgiven like that? Uh, what? What lit up, what
love will do, what what my book will do will
help people contemplate on the vast greatness of God's forgiveness,
(19:41):
his unrivaled grace and mercy. Uh, people are going to
love Jesus more as a result of this book because
he first loved us. Then it's going to move them
to begin to love themselves properly, correctly, humbly. And that's
what catapults you on mission. Whatever you're most excited about,
(20:03):
you want others to be excited about. And it's not
about a formula. It's not about a script. It's about
loving relationships in which it's not my job to save anybody.
And if it was, no one would be saved because
we can't. No one can say Jesus is Lord, except
for by the power of the Holy Spirit. First Corinthians
(20:24):
12 three. It's our job to love and to cast
seeds and to cultivate the seeds and water the seeds.
But it's God who gives the increase. Um, a neighbor
friend of mine recently passed away. She was, uh, in
her 80s, so she lived a long life, but nevertheless.
And what was interesting is I walked by her house
(20:46):
the other day, and they were having, uh, basically a
garage sale. And it made me think, man, is that it?
So we die, and then people sell our stuff. Well,
we can't take the stuff into eternity, but we can
take people into eternity with us. And if followers of
(21:06):
Jesus were as excited about the gospel as they were politics,
we would see revival.
S3 (21:13):
Yeah.
S1 (21:14):
And you do talk about the political in here? Uh,
so so the question is, how do we how do
we get this? How do we become lit up with love?
Because it's not just more information. It's not just more
knowledge or more theological truth that we can pack away
(21:34):
and say, well, I understand that. I understand the atonement.
I understand the hypostatic union, you know, as if anybody
could understand the humanity and divinity of Jesus fully, God fully. No,
it's not about just understanding that there's more to it. Right?
S2 (21:53):
Absolutely. Yeah. I, as a pastor now of uh, 18
years and been in Christian ministry now almost 30 years. Uh,
one of the things that I see is people in
the West think they know something because they can regurgitate
it cognitively. But in the ancient world, to know something
(22:14):
was actually to do it. And so in my NFL career,
you studied a playbook. You go to practice so you
can do it in the game. A lot of times
what we do, we hear a sermon, we do a
Bible study, we fill in the blanks, we read a book,
and then we're done. No, the goal is to put
into practice what you've learned. And isn't it great news
(22:38):
to know that the power of the Holy Spirit that
raised Christ from the dead indwells us to actually do it?
So true faith is actually trusting and obeying Jesus, right?
And so I love theology, I love doctrine, I have
a doctorate. But all of that means nothing if I
don't walk by faith in the power of the Holy Spirit.
(23:02):
And the love of Jesus is like a magnet that
pulls us by faith to glorify the father. And so, uh,
in my experience, I've seen people actually hide behind intellectual
arguments to not actually obey God. It's like, well, I
know all the right answers, but I'm mean as a viper. Uh,
(23:24):
I'm in. I'm insecure. I'm bitter. The things I love
are not the things that God loves. And so, yes,
we're to love God with all of our heart, mind, soul,
and strength, the totality of our entire being. But the
only reason we can love him is because he quickened us.
He woke us up to understand the. The power of
(23:46):
the Holy Spirit loosens those rusted chambers in our hearts,
that we can open the door to him. And we
gotta remember, too, that salvation is not just I follow
Jesus so that I can go to the new heavens
and new earth when I die. So, so our salvation
in the New Testament is a life well lived and
(24:08):
the power of the gospel now for the glory of God.
And I think what people will see when they read
lit up with love. It is a it is a
book of spiritual formation. It is a it is a
book that heals you. It's a book that transforms you. Um,
I take my New Testament scholarship and I communicated in
(24:30):
an everyday vernacular, so people in the pews can get
it so we can take it to the streets, because
there are people that are broken who need the good Shepherd.
S3 (24:42):
Yes.
S1 (24:43):
You know, uh, the other thing you do is you
tell some really great stories, and there's a fellow named Mike.
In our next segment, I want you to tell me
about Mike and the difference he made in your life.
There's another fellow named Steve, um, who you met in
the NFL, and he had a big influence on your life.
And there was a fellow that you dedicated the book
(25:05):
to as well, Allen. So I want you to tell
me a little bit about those three names. I'll also
open the phone lines if you have a this situation
in your own life where it's like, I had this
opportunity and I didn't go through there. Do you know
why you didn't? What what was the fear behind why
you didn't give you share your faith with somebody else.
(25:29):
Because Derwin has a great section in the book that
identifies some of those struggles that we all have. So
here's the number (877) 548-3675. At the website, you'll see the
book lit up with love. Click through today's information right
there Chris Fabry Live for more straight ahead. We're talking
(26:03):
about our motivation to share the good news of God's
amazing grace and love. Today on Chris Fabry. Live to
be everyday missionaries. We'll get right back to Doctor Derwin Gray.
But there's some people who work with a ministry called
Care Net who are making a big difference, both for
the unborn and those who are struggling. And there's some
people struggling with years of guilt and shame. They feel
(26:27):
the mistake they made was too great for God to forgive.
Cornette wants you to know and I would echo it
with them. That is a lie. There is no truth
in it. April is Abortion Recovery Awareness month. If you
click the Green Cornette link at Christ org, you can
download a free copy of forgiven and Set Free. Doesn't
(26:48):
that sound good? Maybe it's you. Maybe there's somebody you
know who needs this ministry from Cornette to be released
from that guilt and that shame that they're hanging on to,
or that's hanging on to them. I'm glad they're doing
what they're doing. Click the green cornette link at Chris
Fabry Live.com. And while you're there, look at the new
(27:10):
book by Derwin Gray. How do you make that name up?
Derwin gray lit up with love becoming good news people
to a gospel starved world. Um, I mentioned three names.
Unless you want to say something about the the people
who feel like they've committed too big of a sin
for God to forgive. You probably meet some of those
(27:31):
people in the ministry, right, Derwin?
S2 (27:35):
Absolutely. There are people that I've ministered to recently who
have bought into this idea that what I've done is
so bad that no one could ever forgive me. Jesus
can forgive other people, but he can't forgive me. And
what I want to say to the person who thinks
(27:55):
that is this. When we think of Jesus and we
think of his sacrifice and we think of his blood,
there is no sin greater than the cleansing power of
his blood. The blood of Jesus not only forgives us,
but it forgets what we've done. The blood of Jesus
(28:15):
not only forgives us and takes away our sin, but
it adds something to us as well. His blood makes
us holy, which means sacred. We're set apart. We belong
to God now. His blood makes us blameless, meaning blame
for our sin has been eradicated, erased, removed. And he
makes us righteous. The Bible says this in second Corinthians
(28:38):
521 God made him who knew no sin to become sin,
that we might become the righteousness of God. Now that
is so unfair that Jesus, who is innocent, pays the
price that we should have. But that's the beauty of grace.
God doesn't operate with fair. God operates with grace, and
(29:01):
grace is lavish and abundant. And when you begin by
faith to believe these truths, there's a burden that is
lifted off your soul. It's it's kind of like Psalm
23 two where it says, and he makes me lie
down in green pastures, and he leads me to quiet waters.
He renews my soul. So don't believe the lie anymore.
(29:23):
That you've done too much to be forgiven. Nothing is
greater than the forgiveness of God. Except for we choose
not to believe it.
S1 (29:32):
Right. That's the. That's the, uh, the hurdle right there
is your belief that God really loves you that much.
And and what I've been looking at lately is the
word delight, how often it shows up in the Psalms
and in other places. But looking at the father, what
the father says in the at the baptism of Jesus,
(29:53):
John the Baptist, this is my son, in whom I
am well pleased. Another way to translate that is in
whom I delight. I'm delighted in my son. Well, if
I'm in Jesus, then I, I am, and he, his
righteousness is on me. Then God delights in me. He
he's delighted. And that's hard for me to wrap my
(30:15):
head around because I know what a knucklehead I am. Um,
but it's true that God delights in me. And that
takes me to a place in your book where you
say around 2001. So this is 24 years ago, after
I'd become a follower of Jesus, I was writing letters
to family and friends about how forgiving and loving Jesus
was and how he could transform their lives. And we
(30:39):
had this question come up yesterday about does unforgiveness block
us in our Christian life? And you write, as I wrote,
I heard a voice say, go find your father. Tell
me about that.
S2 (30:55):
Yeah. It was, um, you know, back then we didn't
we didn't use words like trauma and those types of things. Uh,
but as I was writing letters about forgiveness, I was
just so ravaged by Jesus. Just overwhelmed with how good
he's been. And as I'm writing letters to family and
friends about giving their lives to Christ and what Christ
has done for me, I heard a voice that said,
(31:16):
go find your father. And the next thing I knew
is I was on the ground in a puddle of tears,
cursing and saying things like, he doesn't blankety blank deserve
me going to find him. He abandoned me. Uh, where
was he when I was abused? He never taught me
how to treat when and where was he? And I
was just angry. And it was like God was like, good.
(31:39):
Get it out. It's time to be real. Because God
can only change a true version of ourselves, not a
false one. And a true version of where I was
came out and it was like he he metaphorically picked
me up, put me on his lap, put my head
against his chest and said, son, I know how rejection
feels because my eternal son gets rejected every day. I
(32:03):
know what pain feels like because my son experienced and
absorbed all the world's pain for all time. But please
never forget this. You're right. Your father does not deserve
you going to find him. But you did not deserve
my son Jesus going to find you. Forgive him the
(32:25):
way my son has forgiven you. And man, I knew
what I needed to do. And it was so hard.
Found out that he was incarcerated. So I wrote a
short note that basically said. Hey, dad, I want you
to know I forgive you. Uh, I want you to
know your grandkids. They're pretty special. And, um, I love you.
(32:49):
And I got a letter back, and it was a
short letter, and it just said, thank you for forgiving me.
I do want to know my grandkids and, son. I
want you to know that I love you. And that
was the first time that I heard my dad say,
I love you. And so at that point, I was
in another puddle of tears. But these were tears of joy.
(33:12):
And this is one of the things that I learned.
Number one, I learned how much God loves us. How
can I not want to share the good news of
Christ in light of how he's loved me? Number two,
I learned that forgiveness is not necessarily for the person
you forgive. Forgiveness is more for you because when we
(33:34):
harbor unforgiveness, it's like drinking poison and hoping that the
person that you're mad at dies. The unforgiveness kills us.
But then thirdly, I learned this forgiveness may not change
the person you forgive, but it will definitely keep you
from becoming like the person who hurt you. There's power
(33:59):
in forgiveness that breaks demonic strongholds. So my dad and
I reconciled. We had a relationship and I'm grateful. And
it made me a better husband. It made me a
better father. It made me a better pastor. Uh, it
conformed my image to Christ, because that's what forgiveness does.
Forgiveness isn't granted to those who deserve it. Forgiveness is
(34:22):
granted by the one who loves the one who hurt them.
S1 (34:26):
And it was a process. It sounds like. And a
difficult process that you went through that changed you and
then introduced him to who you really were and who
his his family really was. Right?
S2 (34:42):
Yeah. It's it's always a process. Forgiveness for people. Uh,
Jesus said forgive 70 times seven, which means always God
forgives in one snapshot. We have to continuously, perpetually forgive.
So the issue isn't do I still have feelings that
are hurtful? Of course we do. The question is, do
(35:04):
we allow those feelings to hurt us and hurt other people?
Or do we take those hurt feelings to the Lord
and say, I choose to continue to forgive. Then it
doesn't have power over us. There there are too many
Christians that are stuck in bitterness and unforgiveness, and the
devil loves it. Yeah.
S1 (35:26):
And that's why lit up with love is so countercultural.
Because it's not, you know, do these five different things.
And then you'll see, even in that story about his father,
it's a struggle. It's a struggle to forgive. And that's okay.
God is going to walk with you through that. And
(35:46):
so will the love of Jesus will compel you to
do it, not out of obligation, but out of the
privilege that you have. That's what comes through with lit
up with love, becoming good news people to a gospel
starved world. It's our featured resource. Just go to the
website Chris Livorno. Do you tend to live in God's
(36:11):
story or to put God in your story? We're going
to talk about that straight ahead on Moody Radio. If
you deal with anger, listen to the program tomorrow. I've
got a mom who was just she wanted to be
(36:34):
a really good mom, but she found herself getting so
frustrated with her kids and flying off the handle. How
do you overcome that? I think the answer is is
partly what we're talking about today with Doctor Derwin, gray
lit up with love becoming good news people to a
gospel starved worlds. Our featured resource at Chris Fabry Live.com.
(36:55):
Throughout the book there are these. When you're lit up
with love, this happens. You know this, you do this.
There are also reflection. There's prayers throughout the book too,
but there are reflection questions. And that's what I read
just before the break. Do you tend to live in
God's story or to put God in your story? And
why do you think that is? So answer that question
(37:19):
then for our listeners, what's what do you what finger
and nerve are you pressing when you're asking that?
S2 (37:26):
Yeah. So what I'm trying to do is I'm trying
to be faithful to what's called the metanarrative of God's story.
Meta means big narrative means story. So, so oftentimes what
Christians hear is, okay, um, John 316 God loved you.
He died for you. Believe in him and then you
won't go to hell. You'll go to heaven. You will
(37:48):
go to heaven. So that's like 25% of the story.
The story actually starts in eternity. And what I mean
by that is the Triune God lives in a community
of love, creates the universe out of nothing, creates earth,
puts image bearers on Earth to be in relationship with him,
(38:09):
but also to image forth his glory on the earth.
It's almost like the earth is a temple for God's glory,
and Adam and Eve, where the priests and their job
was to create more priests or human beings, to image
forth the wise wisdom of God's love on earth. When
sin enters the world, it disrupts that. But God continues
(38:30):
his story through various people. And I want to highlight
primarily Abraham, which means father of many. In Genesis 11,
the people scattered because of their arrogance and trying to
create their own gods. Genesis 12 God tells Abraham, change
his name to Abraham through you. I'm going to give
you a big family made up of all the nations Abraham. Isaac, Jacob. Eventually, Jesus,
(38:53):
the Jewish Messiah, comes to do what God promised to
give Abraham a family of every nation, tribe, and tongue.
But how does he do it? He lives a sinless life.
We couldn't dies a death in our place because we
broke every law. And he rose again on the third
day to now live his life innocent through us. And
(39:14):
the Holy Spirit is sent so that we can continue
the ministry and mission of Jesus in every single facet
of life. So, in other words, the redeeming work of Jesus,
the blood of Jesus, the resurrection of Jesus, is so
that God can have a family that says, not my
(39:36):
will be done, but thy will be done. And when
thy will is done, that's where the abundant, beautiful, Christ
exalting life is. So a lot of Christianity, respectfully, is
believe in Jesus. He's going to get you through your problems.
You don't go to hell. And we wonder why we
(39:57):
struggle with discipleship, because a lot of times we're asking
God to fix our story, make our story better, edit
our story. And he's going, wait a minute. No, no, no,
I'm the writer of the story. I'm the director of
the story. I'm the producer of the story. I paid
for the story. I'm the main actor of the story.
You have been created for my will to be done.
(40:20):
And I can tell you as a living testimony when
we become a living sacrifice in view of God's mercy.
Romans 12 one and two, that's when life gets exciting,
because we become a conduit, a a river, a channel
of this love. Or better yet, we become lit up
with love. And every day is filled with divine possibility
(40:43):
because we're everyday missionaries with Jesus.
S1 (40:47):
So the chapters that I want to tear out of
my story, or that I want to mark up so
that nobody can read them, those are there. Some of
those are there because I made some mistakes, you know,
I know, I made some bad decisions, but all of
them are part of that story that he is writing.
(41:08):
So I dare not only look at, you know, like
I do on Facebook. I just tell you the great
things that happened. I don't tell you about the bad
things that happened. God is in the middle of all
of that. And if that's true, then allow that, you know, oh, God,
take my mistakes, take my struggles, and do what you
want rather than just deliver me and make me comfortable. Right.
S2 (41:32):
Yeah. You know, so, um, I have a lot of
scars on my body because of playing college football. Professional football? Football.
I have a I have a big scar on my
right elbow because in 1991, um, we played in Anaheim
in a bowl game, and, uh, I just left a
(41:53):
chunk of my skin there. So when I point to
this scar, it tells a story and I can tell
you about the game. Well, our past is filled with
scars because of our own doing. Our sin are things
we've been through. And those scars now are a reminder
of what God delivered us out of. Those scars tell
a story of God's grace. And besides, Jesus has scars too.
(42:16):
To tell a story.
S1 (42:19):
Exactly. That's the only man made thing in heaven is
the scars that Jesus carries. Right? Um. Yeah. Darren, it's
great to talk with you. I want people to hear,
you know, you quote Ken Bowa talking about the barriers you.
We didn't get to the story of Steve. You got
to read Steve Grant, the naked preacher who basically led
(42:43):
Darwin to Jesus. But there's a high school coach that
you had. I've got like four minutes left here. Tell
me about your high school coach.
S2 (42:51):
Yeah, his name is Mike Sullivan at Converse Judson High School.
When I went there as a sophomore, he saw potential
in me that I didn't see. And that's what great
coaches do. Is coach. Great coaches seeing you, what you
didn't see in yourself, he would work me hard. He'd
work me really hard. I didn't think he liked me,
but he actually loved me. That's why he worked me hard.
Senior year, I became a really good player, and I
(43:12):
decide one day that I'm going to miss practice out
of selfishness. I come to practice the next day. I'm
deep on the bench. I don't plan to game on Friday.
We win 45. Nothing. The following Monday, he calls me
into his office and he just starts crying. I didn't
think this man could cry. He starts crying and he says, son,
you can be great. But if you don't give me
(43:34):
your all, I'm not going to let you play. Your
future is in my hands. It's up to you to
decide what you want to do. So that next week
of practice, I practice as hard as I could, the
best that I'd ever practiced. It was incredible. We get
to the game, the defense goes out, which I was on,
and I was still on the bench. One play goes by,
(43:56):
the next play, Coach Sullivan says. Do we get in
the game? So I sprint out there and the rest
is history. I became I went from a good player
to a future NFL player. Well, ten years go by
and I call Coach Sullivan on the phone. It's 1998
and I'm with the Carolina Panthers and he wants to
(44:16):
hear about the new team I'm with. And I said, coach,
I need to tell you what's happened to me. I've
met Jesus. He's forgiven me. He's transformed me. Coach Sullivan
gets quiet. Then he says, next, I need you to
come to Texas. We need to talk. So my wife
and I fly down to Texas, and he's at a
new school. I speak to one of his classes. Then
he calls me into his office, and he just starts crying,
(44:39):
and he says, I've made a wreck, a wreck of
my life. I've ruined my marriage, and I need you
to coach me in Christianity, the way I've coached you
in football. And right there in that office, I led
Coach Sullivan to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.
S1 (45:02):
Look at that. Look at what happened. And it was
this was not something that you did. Um, you know,
by rote or you got to do this, you got
to do this step. It's like you were just there,
and you just let the love of God that had
invaded your life to spill over onto him. And my
(45:23):
my guess is that changed the trajectory of his life
and marriage, didn't it?
S2 (45:29):
Yes it did. It changed the trajectory of his life.
And I'm grateful that God gave me that experience.
S1 (45:36):
That's the story of of Mike, the coach in high
school who had a big influence on our guest today.
If you want to find out more about it, Lit
Up with Love is the book becoming good News, people
to a gospel starved world? It's written by Doctor Derwin Gray. Derwin,
(45:56):
I could talk with you all day long because all
the stories I mentioned, Alan Bacon, senior, you dedicate the
book to him. We could do a whole program just
on that. But thank you for for what you're doing.
Thank you for sharing your heart. Thank you for being
lit up with love and shining that here today.
S2 (46:16):
Thank you, my friend. Appreciate you. Keep up the great work.
S1 (46:19):
That's Derwin Gray. Find out more again about lit up
with love. Becoming good news people to a gospel starved
world at Chris Fabry live. Hey, thanks for listening today.
Thanks for putting into practice some of the things that
we're talking about. Thanks for your support. And come on
back tomorrow we're going to talk about moms and anger
(46:40):
on Chris Fabry Live. A production of Moody Radio, a
ministry of Moody Bible Institute.
Ever have this happen to you? You're talking with a friend,
maybe a family member, somebody you really care about, and
you sense this opening. There's a space and you feel
like this is it. When you can share what Jesus
has done in your life authentically, it's not some canned
speech or something that you memorized a long time ago.
It's just from your heart. But instead of walking through
(00:29):
that open door, you hold back. You don't say anything.
Why do we do that? What is the fear that
we give into? If you have ever had that happen,
and right now you're feeling guilty about the memory, don't
listen to the voice of shame and guilt I want
you to hear. Doctor Derwin Gray and what he's going
to say. Because the key to overcoming whatever is holding
(00:52):
you back from sharing your heart with others is not
trying to be more bold. It's not trying to be
stronger in your faith. All of those are good things.
The key to sharing Christ with others is coming up
straight ahead on Chris Fabry live. The program from the
heart for the heart to the heart. Thanks for making
time for a conversation from the heart today. Thanks to
(01:12):
Ron McConaughey doing all things technical. Tricia is our producer.
Deb Solomon's in the chair today and Tahira will be
answering your calls. Also, thank you friends and partners. You
are hearing this conversation today because people have reached out
in support of the program. And for a few more days,
we're going to send you a little resource I think
will make a big difference. A Practical Guide for Praying
(01:35):
Parents is not a text book. It is a primer.
That's what Doctor Erwin Lutzer says, meaning this is how
you do it. This is how you pray for that prodigal.
This is how you persist in prayer and not give up.
This is how you pray God's Word to him, so
that you're hanging on to the hope that he has
(01:57):
given you through his word. That's what this little book
will help you do. And if there's somebody on your
heart today and you've been praying and praying and you
feel like you're praying the same thing, let me send
you a copy of A Practical Guide for Praying parents.
It leads you through. It's a day by day thing
where you're able to pray and find scripture. So excited
(02:17):
to send it to you for only a few more days.
86 695 Fabbri is our number (866) 953-2279. Or if you
go to Chris Fabbri. Org. Scroll down the homepage right there.
You'll see it by Doctor Lutzer. A Practical guide for
praying parents. Thanks for your support at the back fence. Chris. Fabbri. Fabbri.
(02:40):
Chris Fabbri, Livorno. He's back. Doctor Derwin Gray, founding and
lead pastor of Transformation Church just outside of Charlotte, North Carolina.
He played professional football for the Colts of Indianapolis and
the Panthers of Carolina. He and his wife, Vicki, have
been married since 1992. Let's see. That's about 33 years.
How in the world? They have two adult children. He's
(03:03):
written a number of books. The latest is Lit Up
with love. It is the featured resource today. Chris Fabry,
doctor gray Derwin, welcome back. How are you doing today?
S2 (03:15):
Hey, I'm doing great. How are you doing?
S1 (03:17):
I am so excited to talk with you. I've looked
at your name on the schedule, and I'm always excited because,
you know, you got the football thing going and you
always have something going on at your church. As a
matter of fact, when we talked just before the program,
you said your voice is almost recovered. So tell me
about this last weekend. This is kind of like the
the big the Super Bowl in a sense for for
(03:40):
your church.
S2 (03:42):
Yeah. You know, uh, Good Friday and Easter are always
a time for us really to, to contemplate and reflect
on the greatness and the goodness of Jesus and his
redemptive work for the glory of God by the Spirit's power.
And so between our two locations, we had eight services
in two days and our three days good Friday, Saturday.
(04:05):
Then multiple services on Sunday. And our people came prepared
to celebrate Christ. Uh they are. Our church is a
community of missionaries. We believe that all of us are
everyday missionaries. And so we're grateful for, you know, record attendance,
but also that our people were infectious. They went viral
(04:28):
with sharing their faith. You know, prayer, care, share. And
so we are in a flourishing season. God has grown
us immensely, uh, over the years. Uh, people want Jesus. Uh,
they don't want a self-help program. Uh, they they don't
want a political Jesus. They want the Jesus of the
(04:48):
Bible who is Lord and King, uh, who is doing
a cosmic, redemptive, transformative work to where we don't use
him as a means to an end. He is the end.
He is the goal. Treasuring him. And so we're seeing, uh,
God do some amazing things, and we're grateful.
S3 (05:07):
So do you see.
S1 (05:08):
In the cult, the broader culture as well as in
the church? And there in North Carolina, do you see
a renewed hunger that you haven't seen in years past?
S2 (05:22):
Uh, the one thing that I would say that I'm
seeing more of is twofold. I'm seeing more teenagers invite
their parents to church. So we're seeing that happen tons.
And I'm also seeing people who are hungry for, uh,
an intentionally multi-ethnic church that reflects revelation five nine of
(05:44):
every nation, tribe and tongue. Uh, I think there are
a lot of Christians who are tired of the political partisanship.
They're tired of the ethnic division. And, um, they want
to participate in a community that is centered on Christ
that teaches us how to love beyond our political and
(06:06):
ethnic differences. Because Jesus did say, you will know my
disciples because they love one another. But it's fascinating to
see the number of teenagers that serve at our church
who invite their friends and who are also, like I said,
inviting their parents. Like there's a lot of parents who
are coming to faith because their children have come to faith.
(06:27):
So at our church, if you're in sixth grade or above,
you're in worship with us. You're serving alongside of adults.
And so teenagers and pre-teens are not the church of Tomorrow.
They're the church of now. We don't call them out.
We call them up into their destiny as redeemed people. Um,
it's it's it's as much their church as it is
(06:49):
our church. And I think they respond to that in
a way that says, wow, these older people believe that
Christ can do great work in me. And they're responding
to it.
S3 (06:59):
Yes.
S1 (06:59):
You've just given me about 50 questions to follow up.
It is so rich what you've just talked about. And
I think the part of the answer, and you've written
about it in the new book, part of the answer
is that people are tired of therapeutic deism. They're tired
of three step Christianity. They're tired of trying to modify behavior.
(07:22):
They want the kind of transformation that we see from
death to life in the first century. They want to
see that, you know what happened in the book of acts,
that that kind of transformation where you take Peter, who was,
you know, down in the dumps because he had betrayed Jesus.
And look at what he's saying just a few weeks later,
(07:44):
and how bold he is. Something happened to him that
can't be explained in any other way other than the
Spirit of God?
S2 (07:51):
Yeah. Yeah. You know, and, uh, so, you know, Chris,
you you raised some really good points, and, uh, I
would I would be amiss not to explain the terms.
Therapeutic deism, in essence, means that there's a God who
wound a clock. He's not really involved. And if he is,
it's kind of to make you feel good. Behavior modification is.
(08:14):
Here's the things you must do to fix your life. Um,
and three steps to a better Life. All of those
things are really found in what's called the enlightenment. And
it really starts with how do I fix my life?
And what my conviction is, is that there's only one
eternal carpenter who has the capacity to fix the human soul,
(08:37):
and his name is Jesus. And he does it from
the inside out. And I think people are drawn to
a God who says, I have seen you. I know
everything about you. I know the depths of your sin.
But I want you anyway. Through the blood of my
son and his resurrection, I now see you. As I
(08:59):
see him. You are united to him. He's the big deal.
He's the star of the show. It's his power. It's
his life. The only thing he asks of us is
to trust him. And so we're seeing people hunger for
the gospel of grace that transforms you into a person
(09:20):
of holiness, which ultimately is a person of love and integrity.
And so I think one of the greatest distractions of
Satan is not from outside of the church. I think
it's from inside of the church. And I think it's
a lot of fake gospel that's basically telling people. Here
(09:44):
are five ways to modify your life to fix your life.
Do this. Do you know it's a bunch of dudes
versus what is Christ done? And how do I live
from the done and complete work of Christ through the
Holy Spirit's power? And it's a life of faith. It's
a life of trusting. It's a life of contemplating what
(10:07):
Jesus has actually done for us and in us. Like
it is mind blowing that right here, right now, every
follower of Christ in the world that is truly reborn.
When God the Father sees you, he sees the righteousness
of Christ. He fully accepts you as Christ. He he,
he not only has forgiven your sin, forgotten your sin.
(10:27):
We are alive in Jesus. We are temples of the
Holy Spirit. We are the hands and feet of Christ.
We are holy and blameless and pure. And all of
that is because of what Jesus has done. We don't
add one cubit to it by anything that we do.
Once again, we live from the power and love of another.
(10:48):
And that another's name is Jesus.
S1 (10:50):
Mhm.
S3 (10:51):
I think you've touched.
S1 (10:52):
On the heart of it and I just wrote this
down as you're talking. What we want is clickbait Christianity.
We want the three steps, the four steps, the five secrets,
the you know, the key to this. I even said
that in the in the beginning I said the key.
This is kind of as a tease to what we
were going to talk about today. Let me go back
(11:14):
up to what I said. Yeah. Here it is. The
key to overcoming whatever is holding you back from sharing
your heart with others. The key in sharing Christ with
others is and I think that's what Derwin has written about.
It's it's not you toeing the line or you not
feeling guilty for having not shared with somebody. You know,
(11:37):
last week or last year. The key is to be
so lit up with love, as Derwin Gray says, that
you want to give the good news to a gospel
starved world. So that's what we're going to talk about today.
And if you had a situation in your own life
where you've you've backed away from sharing, I want you
(11:57):
to listen. This is encouraging. There is freedom here that
Derwin is talking about. Go to the website Chris fabry.org.
You'll see our featured resource lit up with love. We'll
talk about it straight ahead on Moody Radio. I'm so
(12:20):
excited to talk with Derwin Gray today at the radio.
Backyard fence featured resource lit up with love becoming good
news people to a gospel starved world. He serves at
Transformation Church outside of Charlotte, North Carolina, spent several years
in the NFL. God grabbed a hold of him in
the NFL. Maybe we'll get to that story, but in
(12:42):
throughout the book, and I told Derwin this in the
in the break, there is almost this poetic thing that
he has going all throughout the book when you're lit
up with love blank. We could spend the rest of
the the hour just talking about the fill in the blank,
but here are some things he says at the beginning.
When you're lit up with love, you know that only
God saves you. Reach out to others in love and confidence,
(13:05):
recognizing the results are up to him. When you're lit
up with love, you embrace evangelism as a process, not
a one time event. When you're lit up with love,
you see evangelism as an eternal investment. When you let
up without love, you understand that we are playing the
(13:25):
long game. And I would add, and you probably say
this another place. When you're lit up with love, you
want to remain connected with the source of that love,
meaning God's communication to us, his word. When you when
you're lit up with love. It's that word that lights
you up. Now take off on that, Derwin.
S2 (13:47):
Amen. I mean, that's the whole premise of the book.
Is in order for there to be fire, you have
to have oxygen, right? Well, Jesus is the oxygen that
continuously lights us up so that we can be lit
up with love. Um, this this entire book, what makes
it different is, uh, in my perspective, most evangelism books
(14:10):
are how to techniques, um, how to do this, how
to do that. This book is really about being ravaged
by the love of Jesus. And if I could talk
to the reader or the audience now, uh, I just
want to encourage us. Uh, so much of American Christianity
(14:31):
is actually not about worshiping Jesus. It's actually about using
him to fulfill your end or whatever your goal is.
And so, uh, we'll pray to him. But instead of
actual prayers, it's more like formulas and techniques. It's more
like asking for stuff versus no, I want you. I
(14:52):
want to seek first the kingdom of God and His
righteousness and believe that you're going to provide what I need.
And so the premise of my ministry, my life, the
way I read scripture, the way I wrote, lit up
with love is this you were created by God for
God to know God, to make him known in every
(15:12):
single facet of life, that there is nothing better than
being loved by Jesus. And I think Christians spend too
much time on what they need to do, what they've
tried to do, what they failed at, what their goals are.
And instead of looking into the eyes of Jesus and
letting him lavish you and love you because God is love,
(15:33):
and what that love does is it begins to transform
us into a people who say, not my will, but
thy will be done. And it's amazing when we surrender
to the will of God, we're surrendering to a friend.
But we're also surrendering to blessings that we never, ever
thought was possible. If I could just testify for a moment, I,
I didn't I didn't grow up going to church. I
(15:56):
grew up as a compulsive stutterer. Um, I scored a
16 on my act to get into college and accept
my football scholarship. Today, uh, I'm a preacher to preachers
around the world. It's an incredible church. Uh, this is
my ninth book that I've written. I have a doctrine
in New Testament. Like, how do you go from not
going to church, not liking books, not being very smart
(16:19):
to where you are. There's a God who loves you.
God just doesn't save your soul. He saves the whole
of us. And when God has done that, it is
hard to not want other people to experience the grace
of God. So let me put it to you very clearly.
A lack of evangelism is a lack of satisfaction in Jesus.
(16:41):
The more we're satisfied in Jesus, the more we are
connected to Jesus. Not because we work for it, not
because we earned it, but simply because of his grace.
It wasn't something we earned. It was a result of
our new birth in Christ. Right? And so as a
result of that, we begin to be ravaged by his
mercy and his kindness. And then we see other people
(17:04):
and go, oh, my Savior could do for them what
he's done for me.
S1 (17:10):
Isn't that what happened in the first century? You know,
when when the disciples were following Jesus, they they had
this idea of, you know what? When? Hosanna. Hosanna to
the King who's coming in. You know the victory. The
Romans are going to be put down. The king's going
to be on the throne. They had their idea of
who Jesus was and what they wanted. And then, you know,
(17:33):
here comes the cross and here comes the grave. And
it's like this. This is not working out like we
thought we thought you were going to do. Do all
of these things. And. And it seems like you got
a different plan here. And it's that resurrection morning. The
light comes on. It's still a little dim in their
(17:54):
hearts because they didn't understand, but they start to understand.
Wait a minute. He had a different agenda here. And
it changes the trajectory of their lives.
S2 (18:04):
Yeah, absolutely. Uh, they wanted Jesus to kick the Romans
out of the promised Land, and Jesus wanted to save
the Romans. Romans. Because God made a promise to Abraham
that through him all the nations would be blessed. It's amazing.
Christians spend so much time trying to leave earth. And
Jesus said, do on earth as it is in heaven.
(18:27):
The goal of every first century Jewish follower of the
Messiah was for the Kingdom of God to be established
on Earth. And I think that's what's the beautiful thing
of the good news is that not only saves you
for eternity, but it makes you fit for the present. And, um, yeah,
you know, even even as we think about Peter, you
(18:49):
had mentioned Peter a little while ago. What was it
that motivated Peter's heart? You know, Peter sees Jesus on
the beach grilling some fish. And three times Jesus says
to him, do you love me? Do you love me?
Do you love me? And that reverses the three times
that Jesus betrayed Peter. So what?
S3 (19:11):
Peter betrayed Jesus. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, we're just making sure.
S2 (19:16):
Thank you. Where Peter betrayed Jesus. So he reverses that
by saying, do you love me? And he says, three times.
How could you not want to follow Jesus when you've
been forgiven like that? Uh, what? What lit up, what
love will do, what what my book will do will
help people contemplate on the vast greatness of God's forgiveness,
(19:41):
his unrivaled grace and mercy. Uh, people are going to
love Jesus more as a result of this book because
he first loved us. Then it's going to move them
to begin to love themselves properly, correctly, humbly. And that's
what catapults you on mission. Whatever you're most excited about,
(20:03):
you want others to be excited about. And it's not
about a formula. It's not about a script. It's about
loving relationships in which it's not my job to save anybody.
And if it was, no one would be saved because
we can't. No one can say Jesus is Lord, except
for by the power of the Holy Spirit. First Corinthians
(20:24):
12 three. It's our job to love and to cast
seeds and to cultivate the seeds and water the seeds.
But it's God who gives the increase. Um, a neighbor
friend of mine recently passed away. She was, uh, in
her 80s, so she lived a long life, but nevertheless.
And what was interesting is I walked by her house
(20:46):
the other day, and they were having, uh, basically a
garage sale. And it made me think, man, is that it?
So we die, and then people sell our stuff. Well,
we can't take the stuff into eternity, but we can
take people into eternity with us. And if followers of
(21:06):
Jesus were as excited about the gospel as they were politics,
we would see revival.
S3 (21:13):
Yeah.
S1 (21:14):
And you do talk about the political in here? Uh,
so so the question is, how do we how do
we get this? How do we become lit up with love?
Because it's not just more information. It's not just more
knowledge or more theological truth that we can pack away
(21:34):
and say, well, I understand that. I understand the atonement.
I understand the hypostatic union, you know, as if anybody
could understand the humanity and divinity of Jesus fully, God fully. No,
it's not about just understanding that there's more to it. Right?
S2 (21:53):
Absolutely. Yeah. I, as a pastor now of uh, 18
years and been in Christian ministry now almost 30 years. Uh,
one of the things that I see is people in
the West think they know something because they can regurgitate
it cognitively. But in the ancient world, to know something
(22:14):
was actually to do it. And so in my NFL career,
you studied a playbook. You go to practice so you
can do it in the game. A lot of times
what we do, we hear a sermon, we do a
Bible study, we fill in the blanks, we read a book,
and then we're done. No, the goal is to put
into practice what you've learned. And isn't it great news
(22:38):
to know that the power of the Holy Spirit that
raised Christ from the dead indwells us to actually do it?
So true faith is actually trusting and obeying Jesus, right?
And so I love theology, I love doctrine, I have
a doctorate. But all of that means nothing if I
don't walk by faith in the power of the Holy Spirit.
(23:02):
And the love of Jesus is like a magnet that
pulls us by faith to glorify the father. And so, uh,
in my experience, I've seen people actually hide behind intellectual
arguments to not actually obey God. It's like, well, I
know all the right answers, but I'm mean as a viper. Uh,
(23:24):
I'm in. I'm insecure. I'm bitter. The things I love
are not the things that God loves. And so, yes,
we're to love God with all of our heart, mind, soul,
and strength, the totality of our entire being. But the
only reason we can love him is because he quickened us.
He woke us up to understand the. The power of
(23:46):
the Holy Spirit loosens those rusted chambers in our hearts,
that we can open the door to him. And we
gotta remember, too, that salvation is not just I follow
Jesus so that I can go to the new heavens
and new earth when I die. So, so our salvation
in the New Testament is a life well lived and
(24:08):
the power of the gospel now for the glory of God.
And I think what people will see when they read
lit up with love. It is a it is a
book of spiritual formation. It is a it is a
book that heals you. It's a book that transforms you. Um,
I take my New Testament scholarship and I communicated in
(24:30):
an everyday vernacular, so people in the pews can get
it so we can take it to the streets, because
there are people that are broken who need the good Shepherd.
S3 (24:42):
Yes.
S1 (24:43):
You know, uh, the other thing you do is you
tell some really great stories, and there's a fellow named Mike.
In our next segment, I want you to tell me
about Mike and the difference he made in your life.
There's another fellow named Steve, um, who you met in
the NFL, and he had a big influence on your life.
And there was a fellow that you dedicated the book
(25:05):
to as well, Allen. So I want you to tell
me a little bit about those three names. I'll also
open the phone lines if you have a this situation
in your own life where it's like, I had this
opportunity and I didn't go through there. Do you know
why you didn't? What what was the fear behind why
you didn't give you share your faith with somebody else.
(25:29):
Because Derwin has a great section in the book that
identifies some of those struggles that we all have. So
here's the number (877) 548-3675. At the website, you'll see the
book lit up with love. Click through today's information right
there Chris Fabry Live for more straight ahead. We're talking
(26:03):
about our motivation to share the good news of God's
amazing grace and love. Today on Chris Fabry. Live to
be everyday missionaries. We'll get right back to Doctor Derwin Gray.
But there's some people who work with a ministry called
Care Net who are making a big difference, both for
the unborn and those who are struggling. And there's some
people struggling with years of guilt and shame. They feel
(26:27):
the mistake they made was too great for God to forgive.
Cornette wants you to know and I would echo it
with them. That is a lie. There is no truth
in it. April is Abortion Recovery Awareness month. If you
click the Green Cornette link at Christ org, you can
download a free copy of forgiven and Set Free. Doesn't
(26:48):
that sound good? Maybe it's you. Maybe there's somebody you
know who needs this ministry from Cornette to be released
from that guilt and that shame that they're hanging on to,
or that's hanging on to them. I'm glad they're doing
what they're doing. Click the green cornette link at Chris
Fabry Live.com. And while you're there, look at the new
(27:10):
book by Derwin Gray. How do you make that name up?
Derwin gray lit up with love becoming good news people
to a gospel starved world. Um, I mentioned three names.
Unless you want to say something about the the people
who feel like they've committed too big of a sin
for God to forgive. You probably meet some of those
(27:31):
people in the ministry, right, Derwin?
S2 (27:35):
Absolutely. There are people that I've ministered to recently who
have bought into this idea that what I've done is
so bad that no one could ever forgive me. Jesus
can forgive other people, but he can't forgive me. And
what I want to say to the person who thinks
(27:55):
that is this. When we think of Jesus and we
think of his sacrifice and we think of his blood,
there is no sin greater than the cleansing power of
his blood. The blood of Jesus not only forgives us,
but it forgets what we've done. The blood of Jesus
(28:15):
not only forgives us and takes away our sin, but
it adds something to us as well. His blood makes
us holy, which means sacred. We're set apart. We belong
to God now. His blood makes us blameless, meaning blame
for our sin has been eradicated, erased, removed. And he
makes us righteous. The Bible says this in second Corinthians
(28:38):
521 God made him who knew no sin to become sin,
that we might become the righteousness of God. Now that
is so unfair that Jesus, who is innocent, pays the
price that we should have. But that's the beauty of grace.
God doesn't operate with fair. God operates with grace, and
(29:01):
grace is lavish and abundant. And when you begin by
faith to believe these truths, there's a burden that is
lifted off your soul. It's it's kind of like Psalm
23 two where it says, and he makes me lie
down in green pastures, and he leads me to quiet waters.
He renews my soul. So don't believe the lie anymore.
(29:23):
That you've done too much to be forgiven. Nothing is
greater than the forgiveness of God. Except for we choose
not to believe it.
S1 (29:32):
Right. That's the. That's the, uh, the hurdle right there
is your belief that God really loves you that much.
And and what I've been looking at lately is the
word delight, how often it shows up in the Psalms
and in other places. But looking at the father, what
the father says in the at the baptism of Jesus,
(29:53):
John the Baptist, this is my son, in whom I
am well pleased. Another way to translate that is in
whom I delight. I'm delighted in my son. Well, if
I'm in Jesus, then I, I am, and he, his
righteousness is on me. Then God delights in me. He
he's delighted. And that's hard for me to wrap my
(30:15):
head around because I know what a knucklehead I am. Um,
but it's true that God delights in me. And that
takes me to a place in your book where you
say around 2001. So this is 24 years ago, after
I'd become a follower of Jesus, I was writing letters
to family and friends about how forgiving and loving Jesus
was and how he could transform their lives. And we
(30:39):
had this question come up yesterday about does unforgiveness block
us in our Christian life? And you write, as I wrote,
I heard a voice say, go find your father. Tell
me about that.
S2 (30:55):
Yeah. It was, um, you know, back then we didn't
we didn't use words like trauma and those types of things. Uh,
but as I was writing letters about forgiveness, I was
just so ravaged by Jesus. Just overwhelmed with how good
he's been. And as I'm writing letters to family and
friends about giving their lives to Christ and what Christ
has done for me, I heard a voice that said,
(31:16):
go find your father. And the next thing I knew
is I was on the ground in a puddle of tears,
cursing and saying things like, he doesn't blankety blank deserve
me going to find him. He abandoned me. Uh, where
was he when I was abused? He never taught me
how to treat when and where was he? And I
was just angry. And it was like God was like, good.
(31:39):
Get it out. It's time to be real. Because God
can only change a true version of ourselves, not a
false one. And a true version of where I was
came out and it was like he he metaphorically picked
me up, put me on his lap, put my head
against his chest and said, son, I know how rejection
feels because my eternal son gets rejected every day. I
(32:03):
know what pain feels like because my son experienced and
absorbed all the world's pain for all time. But please
never forget this. You're right. Your father does not deserve
you going to find him. But you did not deserve
my son Jesus going to find you. Forgive him the
(32:25):
way my son has forgiven you. And man, I knew
what I needed to do. And it was so hard.
Found out that he was incarcerated. So I wrote a
short note that basically said. Hey, dad, I want you
to know I forgive you. Uh, I want you to
know your grandkids. They're pretty special. And, um, I love you.
(32:49):
And I got a letter back, and it was a
short letter, and it just said, thank you for forgiving me.
I do want to know my grandkids and, son. I
want you to know that I love you. And that
was the first time that I heard my dad say,
I love you. And so at that point, I was
in another puddle of tears. But these were tears of joy.
(33:12):
And this is one of the things that I learned.
Number one, I learned how much God loves us. How
can I not want to share the good news of
Christ in light of how he's loved me? Number two,
I learned that forgiveness is not necessarily for the person
you forgive. Forgiveness is more for you because when we
(33:34):
harbor unforgiveness, it's like drinking poison and hoping that the
person that you're mad at dies. The unforgiveness kills us.
But then thirdly, I learned this forgiveness may not change
the person you forgive, but it will definitely keep you
from becoming like the person who hurt you. There's power
(33:59):
in forgiveness that breaks demonic strongholds. So my dad and
I reconciled. We had a relationship and I'm grateful. And
it made me a better husband. It made me a
better father. It made me a better pastor. Uh, it
conformed my image to Christ, because that's what forgiveness does.
Forgiveness isn't granted to those who deserve it. Forgiveness is
(34:22):
granted by the one who loves the one who hurt them.
S1 (34:26):
And it was a process. It sounds like. And a
difficult process that you went through that changed you and
then introduced him to who you really were and who
his his family really was. Right?
S2 (34:42):
Yeah. It's it's always a process. Forgiveness for people. Uh,
Jesus said forgive 70 times seven, which means always God
forgives in one snapshot. We have to continuously, perpetually forgive.
So the issue isn't do I still have feelings that
are hurtful? Of course we do. The question is, do
(35:04):
we allow those feelings to hurt us and hurt other people?
Or do we take those hurt feelings to the Lord
and say, I choose to continue to forgive. Then it
doesn't have power over us. There there are too many
Christians that are stuck in bitterness and unforgiveness, and the
devil loves it. Yeah.
S1 (35:26):
And that's why lit up with love is so countercultural.
Because it's not, you know, do these five different things.
And then you'll see, even in that story about his father,
it's a struggle. It's a struggle to forgive. And that's okay.
God is going to walk with you through that. And
(35:46):
so will the love of Jesus will compel you to
do it, not out of obligation, but out of the
privilege that you have. That's what comes through with lit
up with love, becoming good news people to a gospel
starved world. It's our featured resource. Just go to the
website Chris Livorno. Do you tend to live in God's
(36:11):
story or to put God in your story? We're going
to talk about that straight ahead on Moody Radio. If
you deal with anger, listen to the program tomorrow. I've
got a mom who was just she wanted to be
(36:34):
a really good mom, but she found herself getting so
frustrated with her kids and flying off the handle. How
do you overcome that? I think the answer is is
partly what we're talking about today with Doctor Derwin, gray
lit up with love becoming good news people to a
gospel starved worlds. Our featured resource at Chris Fabry Live.com.
(36:55):
Throughout the book there are these. When you're lit up
with love, this happens. You know this, you do this.
There are also reflection. There's prayers throughout the book too,
but there are reflection questions. And that's what I read
just before the break. Do you tend to live in
God's story or to put God in your story? And
why do you think that is? So answer that question
(37:19):
then for our listeners, what's what do you what finger
and nerve are you pressing when you're asking that?
S2 (37:26):
Yeah. So what I'm trying to do is I'm trying
to be faithful to what's called the metanarrative of God's story.
Meta means big narrative means story. So, so oftentimes what
Christians hear is, okay, um, John 316 God loved you.
He died for you. Believe in him and then you
won't go to hell. You'll go to heaven. You will
(37:48):
go to heaven. So that's like 25% of the story.
The story actually starts in eternity. And what I mean
by that is the Triune God lives in a community
of love, creates the universe out of nothing, creates earth,
puts image bearers on Earth to be in relationship with him,
(38:09):
but also to image forth his glory on the earth.
It's almost like the earth is a temple for God's glory,
and Adam and Eve, where the priests and their job
was to create more priests or human beings, to image
forth the wise wisdom of God's love on earth. When
sin enters the world, it disrupts that. But God continues
(38:30):
his story through various people. And I want to highlight
primarily Abraham, which means father of many. In Genesis 11,
the people scattered because of their arrogance and trying to
create their own gods. Genesis 12 God tells Abraham, change
his name to Abraham through you. I'm going to give
you a big family made up of all the nations Abraham. Isaac, Jacob. Eventually, Jesus,
(38:53):
the Jewish Messiah, comes to do what God promised to
give Abraham a family of every nation, tribe, and tongue.
But how does he do it? He lives a sinless life.
We couldn't dies a death in our place because we
broke every law. And he rose again on the third
day to now live his life innocent through us. And
(39:14):
the Holy Spirit is sent so that we can continue
the ministry and mission of Jesus in every single facet
of life. So, in other words, the redeeming work of Jesus,
the blood of Jesus, the resurrection of Jesus, is so
that God can have a family that says, not my
(39:36):
will be done, but thy will be done. And when
thy will is done, that's where the abundant, beautiful, Christ
exalting life is. So a lot of Christianity, respectfully, is
believe in Jesus. He's going to get you through your problems.
You don't go to hell. And we wonder why we
(39:57):
struggle with discipleship, because a lot of times we're asking
God to fix our story, make our story better, edit
our story. And he's going, wait a minute. No, no, no,
I'm the writer of the story. I'm the director of
the story. I'm the producer of the story. I paid
for the story. I'm the main actor of the story.
You have been created for my will to be done.
(40:20):
And I can tell you as a living testimony when
we become a living sacrifice in view of God's mercy.
Romans 12 one and two, that's when life gets exciting,
because we become a conduit, a a river, a channel
of this love. Or better yet, we become lit up
with love. And every day is filled with divine possibility
(40:43):
because we're everyday missionaries with Jesus.
S1 (40:47):
So the chapters that I want to tear out of
my story, or that I want to mark up so
that nobody can read them, those are there. Some of
those are there because I made some mistakes, you know,
I know, I made some bad decisions, but all of
them are part of that story that he is writing.
(41:08):
So I dare not only look at, you know, like
I do on Facebook. I just tell you the great
things that happened. I don't tell you about the bad
things that happened. God is in the middle of all
of that. And if that's true, then allow that, you know, oh, God,
take my mistakes, take my struggles, and do what you
want rather than just deliver me and make me comfortable. Right.
S2 (41:32):
Yeah. You know, so, um, I have a lot of
scars on my body because of playing college football. Professional football? Football.
I have a I have a big scar on my
right elbow because in 1991, um, we played in Anaheim
in a bowl game, and, uh, I just left a
(41:53):
chunk of my skin there. So when I point to
this scar, it tells a story and I can tell
you about the game. Well, our past is filled with
scars because of our own doing. Our sin are things
we've been through. And those scars now are a reminder
of what God delivered us out of. Those scars tell
a story of God's grace. And besides, Jesus has scars too.
(42:16):
To tell a story.
S1 (42:19):
Exactly. That's the only man made thing in heaven is
the scars that Jesus carries. Right? Um. Yeah. Darren, it's
great to talk with you. I want people to hear,
you know, you quote Ken Bowa talking about the barriers you.
We didn't get to the story of Steve. You got
to read Steve Grant, the naked preacher who basically led
(42:43):
Darwin to Jesus. But there's a high school coach that
you had. I've got like four minutes left here. Tell
me about your high school coach.
S2 (42:51):
Yeah, his name is Mike Sullivan at Converse Judson High School.
When I went there as a sophomore, he saw potential
in me that I didn't see. And that's what great
coaches do. Is coach. Great coaches seeing you, what you
didn't see in yourself, he would work me hard. He'd
work me really hard. I didn't think he liked me,
but he actually loved me. That's why he worked me hard.
Senior year, I became a really good player, and I
(43:12):
decide one day that I'm going to miss practice out
of selfishness. I come to practice the next day. I'm
deep on the bench. I don't plan to game on Friday.
We win 45. Nothing. The following Monday, he calls me
into his office and he just starts crying. I didn't
think this man could cry. He starts crying and he says, son,
you can be great. But if you don't give me
(43:34):
your all, I'm not going to let you play. Your
future is in my hands. It's up to you to
decide what you want to do. So that next week
of practice, I practice as hard as I could, the
best that I'd ever practiced. It was incredible. We get
to the game, the defense goes out, which I was on,
and I was still on the bench. One play goes by,
(43:56):
the next play, Coach Sullivan says. Do we get in
the game? So I sprint out there and the rest
is history. I became I went from a good player
to a future NFL player. Well, ten years go by
and I call Coach Sullivan on the phone. It's 1998
and I'm with the Carolina Panthers and he wants to
(44:16):
hear about the new team I'm with. And I said, coach,
I need to tell you what's happened to me. I've
met Jesus. He's forgiven me. He's transformed me. Coach Sullivan
gets quiet. Then he says, next, I need you to
come to Texas. We need to talk. So my wife
and I fly down to Texas, and he's at a
new school. I speak to one of his classes. Then
he calls me into his office, and he just starts crying,
(44:39):
and he says, I've made a wreck, a wreck of
my life. I've ruined my marriage, and I need you
to coach me in Christianity, the way I've coached you
in football. And right there in that office, I led
Coach Sullivan to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.
S1 (45:02):
Look at that. Look at what happened. And it was
this was not something that you did. Um, you know,
by rote or you got to do this, you got
to do this step. It's like you were just there,
and you just let the love of God that had
invaded your life to spill over onto him. And my
(45:23):
my guess is that changed the trajectory of his life
and marriage, didn't it?
S2 (45:29):
Yes it did. It changed the trajectory of his life.
And I'm grateful that God gave me that experience.
S1 (45:36):
That's the story of of Mike, the coach in high
school who had a big influence on our guest today.
If you want to find out more about it, Lit
Up with Love is the book becoming good News, people
to a gospel starved world? It's written by Doctor Derwin Gray. Derwin,
(45:56):
I could talk with you all day long because all
the stories I mentioned, Alan Bacon, senior, you dedicate the
book to him. We could do a whole program just
on that. But thank you for for what you're doing.
Thank you for sharing your heart. Thank you for being
lit up with love and shining that here today.
S2 (46:16):
Thank you, my friend. Appreciate you. Keep up the great work.
S1 (46:19):
That's Derwin Gray. Find out more again about lit up
with love. Becoming good news people to a gospel starved
world at Chris Fabry live. Hey, thanks for listening today.
Thanks for putting into practice some of the things that
we're talking about. Thanks for your support. And come on
back tomorrow we're going to talk about moms and anger
(46:40):
on Chris Fabry Live. A production of Moody Radio, a
ministry of Moody Bible Institute.
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com