Seeing the Supernatural

Is what we see all there is, or is there something more? Hear answers from investigate journalist and bestselling author of The Case for Christ Lee Strobel. Lee has turned his attention to the public fascination with the paranormal and questions about angels, demons, mystical dreams and near-death encounters. Don't miss the conversation on Chris Fabry Live.

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Seeing the Supernatural

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Episode Transcript

S1 (00:05):
What in the world is rolling around the mind of
renowned investigative journalist and best selling author Lee Strobel? You're
going to find answers to that question straight ahead as
we talk about wait for it angels, demons, mystical dreams,
near-death encounters, the paranormal, and other mysteries of the unseen world.

(00:28):
Seeing the supernatural is what Lee has been talking and
writing about. And you're going to hear him today at
the radio backyard fence. Welcome to the Monday edition of
Chris Fabry Live Online. Chris Fabry, Livorno. Thanks to Ryan
McConaughey doing all things technical. Trisha is our producer and
the chair. Today Rina will be answering your calls. Thank
you friends and partners. We can't do what we do
without your support. I hear this a lot. My son,

(00:51):
my daughter, my grandson, my granddaughter. I'm so concerned. I
want to trust God. But I'm struggling because. And then
fill in the blank with whatever that concern is. I
have something that will help you. Instead of leaning into
the worry and the anxiety. Lean into dependence on God
through scriptural prayer. Doctor Erwin Lutzer wrote a little book
so helpful. It's a practical guide for praying parents. It's our.

(01:15):
Thank you. If you support us, we'll send you a copy.
So if you're worried and anxious as a parent, allow
this little book to help you focus your prayers and
draw near to the one who loves your kids and
your grandkids even more than you do. Call and give
a gift of any size during April. 86695 Faberry. We'd
love to send it to you. [phone] or go to

(01:39):
Chris Fabry live.org fab as in fab Fabry Chris Fabry
lives and thanks for your support. He is back! Lee
Strobel you probably know him from the landmark book and
the film The Case for Christ. He's a former award
winning legal editor of the Chicago Tribune, earned his journalism

(01:59):
degree at the University of Missouri. Awarded a Ford Foundation
Fellowship to study at Yale Law School. Former atheist. He
served as a teaching pastor at three of America's largest churches.
How many other people can you say that about? He
and his wife. But here's the miracle. He and his wife, Leslie,
have been married for more than 50 years. They live

(02:19):
in Texas. Lee. Welcome back. How in the world has
she put up with you for more than 50 years? Well,
that was a great introduction, I'll tell you that right now.
But we're not hearing, Lee, as you can tell. So
featured resource today is.

S2 (02:37):
Sorry I was off there.

S1 (02:39):
Oh, your mic was off. That'll do it every time.

S2 (02:42):
Lee, that'll do it. I'm not high tech like you are.
You know, you're so far advanced in the technological realm.

S1 (02:49):
Okay, so what were you saying when I said how what?
How has she put up with you for more than
50 years?

S2 (02:54):
I don't know. You know, we laugh a lot. I
think that's part of the thing. We. She was saying
the other day, I think we laugh now more than
we ever laughed our whole marriage. We're just enjoying life,
enjoying the grandkids and, uh, um, watching each one of
them come to faith one by one. And it's just
been a joy. Yeah.

S1 (03:13):
I love hearing your voice. It's just, you know, I
have hope when I hear your voice. But no matter
what's going on in the world, it's like, oh, Lee
Strobel's is there, and he's got something. So why the supernatural?
Why'd you go this way?

S2 (03:27):
Well, I found out that eight out of ten Americans
believe that there is a realm beyond what we can
see and touch. Uh, and yet there's all kinds of
wacky ideas about it. And, and then there's another group
that say, wait a minute. You know, this is an
age of science and technology. Science is the only arbiter
of truth. And, uh, which in itself, when you say

(03:48):
that that's a statement that is not scientific, that can
be measured. So it's self-refuting. Science is not the only
arbiter of truth. There is something beyond the physical realm.
But you know, the Bible talks about it. And I
thought if we could use this as a, as a
kind of a ramp or a connection with people who
have a spiritual interest but haven't quite yet found Jesus,

(04:10):
that maybe this would, uh, lead them toward that path
to know Jesus who created all that there is, including
the unseen realm.

S1 (04:18):
So in one sense, it's for, you know, Christians who
are interested in what you're talking about. But it's also
for non-Christians who say, yeah, I heard this story about
something that happened to uncle Harry or whatever, and I've
been able to make sense of it. Right?

S2 (04:35):
Yes it is. You know, help people realize that, um,
there there is evidence, uh, and I present that in
the book that there is more to reality than that
which we can see and touch and put in a
test tube. Um, but what is it? What is it like? Well,
then we turn to Scripture as being reliable to tell
us what indeed this other realm is like. So I

(04:55):
talk about heaven. I talk about hell. Um, and, uh,
try to help people understand that these are very real
realms that, um, we all need to. Be not only
aware of, but, uh, to find Jesus so that we
spend eternity with him in the right place.

S1 (05:11):
Yes. Go back to your atheist days. Um. You were.
You were hard living, you know. You didn't want anything
to do with that Christian stuff. Uh, if you heard
somebody talking on the radio about the supernatural, what would
you have said?

S2 (05:24):
I would have dismissed it and said, uh, you know,
this is fantasy. This is make believe. This is wishful thinking.
This is mythology. It's legend. Um, I was very much empirical.
That is, I was always interested in evidence. Give me corroboration,
give me proof. I mean, you know, with a background
in journalism and law, you get that kind of, uh,

(05:44):
proof it to me, uh, attitude. I remember in the
Chicago Tribune newsroom, we had a sign that said, if
your mother says she loves you, check it out, you know.
What evidence do you have? Maybe she's lying. Got any proof?
Got any evidence to back that up? And so I
would have. I would have dismissed it out of hand. Um.
And yet, um, not taking the time to really investigate.

(06:08):
Is there evidence, is there corroboration that there is indeed
something beyond what we can see and touch? If I
had pursued that, I would have found that, wow. There
is a whole series of categories of evidence that help
us understand that, uh, there is a there is a supernatural, um, reality.

S1 (06:28):
Why did you dedicate this to J.P. Moreland?

S2 (06:32):
Oh, you know, J.P. Morgan's a great Christian philosopher. He's
been my friend for decades. Um, I remember when I
was a teaching pastor at a church in Chicago many,
many years ago back in the the early 90s or
late 80s. And we brought in JP to do a
little seminar on science and faith and just sitting there
and being enthralled by him because he's not only in

(06:54):
science and chemistry, not only in theology, um, but also
in philosophy. So he has a really interesting background. Uh,
he actually helped mentor my son, who is now a
PhD in theology and is a professor at uh, Talbot
School of Theology at Biola University. Uh, so I just
admire JP as being one of those philosophers who can
write in everyday language and communicate and understand. I interviewed

(07:18):
him for The Case for Christ and a couple other
books that I've done through the years, and I just
admire people like that who embrace the academic but don't
get lost in it. It can communicate to everyday people
like me. Yeah.

S1 (07:30):
No wonder, uh, seeing the Supernatural by Lee Strobel's, our
featured resource. If you go to Chris Faber's Archive.org, you'll
see it right there. Investigating angels, demons, mystical dreams, near-death encounters,
and other mysteries of the unseen world. If you have
a question or comment for Lee today or story. Eight. 38775483675.

(07:53):
More straight ahead. Catching up with Lee Strobel today at
the radio backyard fence. If you go to Chris fabric.org,
you'll see our featured resource, Lee's new book, Seeing the Supernatural.

(08:15):
It's at Chris fabric. Okay, so give me some stats.
What are people saying about the supernatural? About the the
unseen world? What do people, especially in America, what do
we believe?

S2 (08:29):
Well, yeah, as I mentioned earlier, about 80% of Americans
believe there is something spiritual beyond the natural world. About
half say that they have personally had, at one point
in their life, a sudden sense of connection with something
from beyond. Uh, more than a third report. They've had
a strong feeling that a deceased person was communicating with them.
But interestingly, uh, survey a few years ago by Gallup

(08:52):
showed that the percentage of Americans who believe in God, angels, heaven, hell,
and the devil has fallen by double digits since 2001. Now,
clear majority still believe in them. About 69% of Americans
believe in angels. Now 58% believe in Satan. But the
percentage overall has actually been declining. I thought thought that

(09:14):
was rather interesting. And yet we see TV shows like
supernatural and motion pictures that have come out on supernatural
and paranormal topics that that are setting records. Um, so
there is a underlying, I think, curiosity and interest among
everyday people.

S1 (09:32):
There's also a danger to it too. And I've always,
you know, of went to heaven. You know, I died
on the table, went to heaven. And here's what I saw.
Or I went to hell. And here's what I saw.
I've always I'm not I'm not Pooh poohed those, But
I've never really wanted to feature them because they're so
subjective in in nature. So what do you say about that?

S2 (09:55):
The near death experiences are fascinating. I do have a
chapter on that and a couple of things that are fascinating,
because I agree with you that if it's just a
subjective experience, sometimes it's hard to find them to be credible.
But the cases I focus on are cases where we
have corroboration. So, for instance, there was a woman named
Mary and she bled out and died in an operating

(10:16):
room in London, England. And yet, she said later, I
was conscious the whole time and my spirit separated from
my body. I floated toward the ceiling. I'm watching them
work on my body. Then she said she was attracted
toward a tunnel. She encountered a bright light that she
said exuded unconditional love like nothing she'd never felt before.

(10:36):
And then her body was revived, so her spirit returned.
But here's what's the here's where the corroboration comes in.
She said, you know, when I was at the ceiling.
Looking down, watching, working on my body. There's a ceiling
fan here in the operating room and on the upper
part of one of the blades of the ceiling fan

(10:57):
is a red sticker, and she described it in great detail.
It couldn't be seen from people in the operating room
because it was on the top of the blade of
the ceiling fan. So a nurse got a ladder and
they went up and looked. And sure enough, there was
the red sticker just as she had described it. So
something is going on there. Um, she, she had to

(11:17):
have that that out of body experience to really know
that that sticker was there. There was another study, by
the way, there have been 900 scholarly studies done of
near-death experiences. This is a very well researched area. And
in one study, 21 people who were blind, most of
them blind since birth, um, they were able to see

(11:38):
or had visual like perceptions during their near-death experience, which
scientists said, this is impossible. So there was a woman
by the name of Vicky. And Vicky was 20, in
her 20s, I think 26. Um, she blind virtually since birth.
And she's in a car accident and she's killed. But
she said I was later. I was conscious the whole time,

(11:59):
and I. My spirit must have separate from my body
because I'm watching. I'm seeing them work on my body,
and I'm seeing birds for the first time. I'm seeing
people for the first time. And. And she was just
blown away by being able to see this stuff. And
then when she was revived, her blindness returned. She could
no longer see. And as one researcher said, this is

(12:21):
just medically impossible. How do we explain this? So I
try to look at those cases of people seeing something
or hearing something that would have been impossible for them
to see or hear if they did not have an authentic, uh,
out-of-body experience where their spirits separated from their physical bodies.

S1 (12:39):
And I'm I'm thinking of the atheist or agnostic or
anybody who says this is all there is. Once you die,
you're you're done. You know, you hear a story like that,
and then the corroboration and it causes you at least
to think, well, wait a minute, what am I basing
my belief that this is all there is on? And
what about these these kinds of stories? And then you

(13:02):
go to the biblical record and you can look at that. Um,
let me get Eva in here in Indiana. Eva, what
did you want to say to Lee?

S3 (13:10):
Hey, you kind of already covered it, but I just
wanted to know more. Did you get to interview anybody
in person who had a near-death experience? And which of
those conversations really stick out in your mind as being pertinent?

S2 (13:27):
Yeah. Great question. I actually interviewed John Burke, who is
a Christian pastor, uh, who has, uh, personally studied 1500
near-death experiences as many of the interviews on videotape. And, um,
What his surprising finding. Because I was skeptical toward these things.
I thought this was a New Age kind of deal. Um,

(13:48):
but what he established is, and I talk about this
in my book, is that when you strip away how
people interpret the the near-death experience and look at what
actually takes place, because there are common things that take
place in these experiences. When you look at that, it
matches up with the biblical teachings. So it's consistent with Scripture.

(14:11):
Now keep in mind these people are not permanently dead.
So you think, what about Hebrews where it says you're
appointed once to die and then the judgment? Well, yeah,
that's a permanent death. This isn't a permanent death. These
people are. They may be no heartbeat, no brain waves.
Some have been declared dead. Um, but they're coming back.
They're not permanently dead. So this isn't a the kind

(14:32):
of death that the Bible is talking about there. But
when you look at, uh, the characteristics of what typically
takes place and overlay it with the Bible. There is
about 47 areas of consistency. Um, which tells me that that, uh,
you know, maybe this does have a biblical basis. Maybe.

(14:52):
It does match up. Um, yeah.

S1 (14:56):
It depends. Yeah. Eva, thank you for your call today.
I've spoken with doctors, nurses, uh, people who work in hospice, especially,
who have said they have been told by those who
are passing away of these deathbed experiences or visions that
they have. You talk about that in the book, too,

(15:17):
don't you?

S2 (15:18):
I do, I have a chapter on that. This is
fascinating to me. This is different than a near-death experience
and a near-death experience. People are going to return, um,
in a deathbed vision. This is a vision someone has
before they permanently die. And you think biblically. And in
the book of acts, we have Stephen, uh, described as
being full of the Holy Spirit, who, as he's about
to be stoned to death, looks up and sees the

(15:40):
heavens open up and sees the son and the father together. Uh,
so there's a there's a biblical, um, basis for this.
And what we found is these are incredibly common. If
these were an atheist, could say, well, you know, you
have billions of people dying over time. Uh, certainly there'll
be an anomaly from now. Now and again. No, these

(16:00):
are incredibly common. There have been tens of thousands of
these that have been studied by scientists. In fact, they
went to a huge hospice facility in New York State.
And they said to the dying people there, if you have, um,
vision unlike anything you've ever had in your life, uh,
tell us, we would like to know, because a lot
of people are afraid to say anything. They'll think, you know,

(16:21):
maybe you think I'm got dementia or whatever. So they
asked them to say if they ever had an experience
like that. 88% of them reported a pre-death vision. 80.
And I think the other 12% may have had one,
but died before they were able to tell somebody. So
these are incredibly common. And where we see the corroboration
on these. Again I'm, you know, based on kind of

(16:44):
legal thinking, I want to see that it's more than
just a, um, an internal, um, subconscious type of thing. Uh, well,
for one thing, they studied 3000 cases. Scientists. And they
determined that these experiences, quote, are definitely not hallucinations, fantasies
or memories caused by grief, nor are they projections of

(17:05):
the subconscious mind or products of an overactive imagination. So
those are scientists comparing these visions to hallucinations and things
like that and saying they're not the same. But then
the corroboration we see is when people are about to
die and they see someone in the life to come
who they didn't know had already died. So, for instance,
I tell the story of a woman named Dora in England.

(17:27):
She was on her deathbed. She sees this glimpse into
the world beyond these angelic beings. She sees her father,
who had died several years earlier, kind of welcoming her.
And then she gets this puzzled look on her face
and she says, well, why? Why is Vida with my father?
Why is Vida there? What's what? What's Vida doing there?

(17:47):
And then she died. Well, Vida was her sister, and
she had died a couple of weeks earlier, but nobody
had told Dora. Told Dora because they didn't want to
push her over and kill her by the shock of
it all. So she did not know that this had happened.
And yet she's seeing Vida in the world to come.
That's the kind that's good evidence to me that there's

(18:09):
something here.

S1 (18:10):
Yeah, there's something more. And he writes about it. Lee
Strobel writes about it in Seeing the Supernatural. It's out.
It's new, and it's our featured resource again at Chris
Fabry Live. Org. One of the sections that I loved
reading was of our mutual friend Tom Doyle, who I met,
you know, in Colorado when we moved there, and he

(18:31):
was our pastor, and then he went to to Israel
and he and Joanne and the family really have this
ministry in the Middle East, especially to those who are
in the Muslim world. And Tom started telling me about
these stories that he heard about people who, you know,
are Muslims and who have this vision of Jesus. And

(18:51):
if you're an evangelical Christian and a Bible believer, it's
like visions. I don't want anything to do with that.
You know, it's like he runs screaming from it and
then you realize, well, wait a minute, he's not making
this up. These people. So tell me more about that.
You talked with Tom, didn't you?

S2 (19:07):
Right. I interviewed him for this book, and he's written
several books on this topic. Um, and indeed, in the Bible,
we see, what, 200 examples of visions and dreams that
God used supernaturally in biblical times. So it's not unprecedented. Um,
but what's again, is what's important to me is the corroboration,

(19:27):
because what's happening in the Middle East is Muslims are
not going to sleep having a dream about Jesus and
waking him up. Waking up as a Christian. They're going
to sleep. They're having these dreams. Supernatural. Vivid dreams. Like
they've never had where they encountered Jesus. But he points
to something outside of that dream to tell them about

(19:49):
the gospel. So I'll give you an example. There's a
woman named Nora. She was in Cairo, mother of eight Muslim,
and she has a Jesus dream. And she's walking with
Jesus along a lakeshore. And Jesus, she feels the love
and the grace and the beauty of Jesus. She's just
mesmerized by him. And and she said, I'm a woman.
But I didn't feel shame in the presence of him. And,

(20:12):
and and and she's just overwhelmed. And she said, Jesus,
tell me, why are you appearing to me? I'm just
a mother, a muslim mother of eight here in Cairo.
And he said, my friend will tell you tomorrow about
me why I came. And she said, who's your friend?
And he points to another man who had been walking
with them along the lakeside, but she had been so

(20:33):
mesmerized by Jesus she never noticed him until then. So
she wakes up the next day. She goes to the
crowded marketplace in Cairo, and she sees the man from
her dream, and she goes up to him and says,
you're the one. He said, what are you talking about?
You're the guy. Same glasses, same face, same clothes. You're
the one. And he said, did you have a dream
about Jesus last night? And she said, yes. Well, turned

(20:57):
out he was an underground church planter and he had
not wanted to go to the crowded marketplace that Friday.
But he felt like God had an appointment for him.
So he showed up and he meets this woman who
saw him in her dream. He pulls her aside, opens
the Bible, and shares the gospel. That's how these things
take place. So there's a corroboration there. In another case,

(21:18):
there was a man named Omar. That's a pseudonym, but
a man they call Omar who hated Jewish people. He
grew up in a refugee camp, and he was going
to join Hamas, this terrorist organization. His goal was to
kill as many Jewish people as he could. And he's
walking down the road to meet with the representatives of Hamas.
And all of a sudden there's a man in white

(21:39):
standing in the middle of the road. And he says
to him, basically, Omar, this is not what I had
for you. This is not the way I want you
to spend your life. I want you to turn around.
I want you to go home. This is not the
purpose that I have for you in this life. And
it's so overwhelming that Omar obeys. He turns around. He
goes home. Well, later that day, um, across the hall

(22:03):
from him in the apartment building, uh, a Christian was
moving in, and he met this Christian. He said I
had this encounter today. And he tells me, he said,
what does this mean? And the Christian opens the Bible
and shares the gospel, leads him to faith. And today
he's an underground church planter in the Middle East. Wow.

S1 (22:25):
You know what that reminds me of is, in acts
and Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch who's reading. I think
he's reading Isaiah. What in the world does this mean?
You know, I don't know. I can't figure this out.
And Philip is basically, you know. Well, here, let me
let me explain what that means. Yes. And then there
is this transportation thing that happens that he's, you know,

(22:50):
if they find water and they baptize, and then immediately
he's taken away. Which, you know, I don't understand everything
about that, but there's something that's going on in that
story that sounds like it's happening again, as you describe
it here today.

S2 (23:08):
Well, you know, Tom Doyle said to me, Lee, I
could pick up the phone right now and I could
call Syria. I could call Iraq. And I'll give you
five more stories. This is happening all over. It's been
estimated that, you know, we've had more Muslims come to
faith in Jesus Christ in the last few decades than
in the 1400 years since Muhammad, and about a quarter
to a third of them report having had a Jesus dream.

(23:30):
It is so common that sometimes in Cairo you'll open
the newspaper and there'll be an ad, and the ad says,
call this number and we'll tell you about the man
in white you met in your dream last night. That's
how common this is. It's absolutely amazing. And, and, uh,
you know, in some places in the Middle East, it's
illegal to share the Christian message. And yet it's as

(23:52):
if God's saying. You think that's going to stop me? Yes.
I got news for you.

S1 (23:57):
Well, and people like me, who? And when we come
back from a break, I want you to talk about, uh,
there are several people. You opened the book with a
woman who's blind from birth, I believe, and, uh, a
situation that happened to her and a healing that happened. Uh,
people like me, you know, I have a hard time

(24:18):
with one thing or another, with dreams, with visions. And
it's like, I really want to stay with the biblical record.
And then you you hear stories like this from people
who aren't, you know, listen to my story and then
put $20 in an envelope and Jesus will answer your prayer,
you know, because that stuff still goes on. But you

(24:38):
hear these kinds of stories and it's like, how dare
I box God in and keep him? You know, he
does not ask me for permission to do what he
wants to do in the world, right?

S2 (24:50):
Yeah, exactly. Um, I went to cases where, uh, they've
been published in peer reviewed medical journals. I was looking
for cases that medical researchers have investigated. I'm not looking
for hearsay. I'm not looking for a story that you
hear through the grapevine. And, um, this story, uh, is
of a woman who was blind from an incurable condition. Okay.

S1 (25:12):
Don't tell me. Don't tell me now. This is a
this is a tease. For the next segment, we're going
to come back. At least go tell that because there's
a reason why he opens the book with this, and
you got to hear it. Seeing the supernatural is our
featured resource at Chris. Org. Subtitled Investigating Angels, demons, Mystical Dreams,
Near-Death encounters, and Other Mysteries of the Unseen World. Click through.

(25:34):
Today's information. You'll see it right there. It's just out
from New York Times best selling author Lee Strobel. And
I want to hear from you. Even if you're a
skeptic today. [phone]. More with Lee straight ahead. Lee Strobel

(26:03):
is with us. The book Seeing the Supernatural came out
last week. It's already number eight on the New York
Times bestseller list. That's how much interest there is, not
only in the Christian community, but outside the Christian community
in this topic. We'll get right back to him. I
have had a topic on my list to do. For

(26:24):
two years. I have Lee Strobel The Letter, and I
want him to talk about that right after I tell
you about one of the criticisms. Criticisms of pro-lifers like
yours truly is, you're only concerned about the fetus before birth.
You don't care about it after the birth. And that's
one of the reasons I love Cornette's pro abundant life approach.

(26:44):
They are for the unborn and the born, the mother
or the father, those of those children. They are so committed.
Their concern also goes to those who have regret for
a decision that they made. Click the green care net
link at Chris org. You'll see a free resource highlighting
their Ark Ministry, abortion, recovery and care. April is Abortion

(27:06):
Recovery Awareness Month and there is healing for you. So
if you're struggling to live forgiven, click that link today.
If you know someone who is struggling. Click the Green
Care Net link at Chris Lives to find out more.
Somebody you know is going to need the Ministry of
Care net. Click that link at Chris Fabry Live. So

(27:28):
two years ago in January, you were on this program.
And in this segment, in the third segment, you said
something about the letter. And there was it was like
a regret. And it's like, I've got to do this
program just with listeners, not with you. And yeah, you
reminded me in the break what that's about. Tell me.

S2 (27:48):
Yeah. Um, you know, when I was an atheist, a
woman came up to me at school, the University of Missouri,
where we were students, and said something terrible has happened.
I'm pregnant. My boyfriend has walked out on me. What
do I do? You're older than I am. Please give
me some advice. And I said, well, you know, if
the baby's in your way, you get rid of it.
You know, abortion is legal in New York. I'll, you know,
we'll get the money together. We'll I'll take care of

(28:10):
all the details. We'll set it up. We'll take care
of the babies in the way. You just get rid
of it. There's no big deal. So I help orchestrate
the destruction of that innocent unborn child who had done
nothing wrong except get in somebody's way. And it didn't
bother me at all until I became a Christian, and
I realized the depth of the sin that I'd created

(28:31):
by orchestrating this destruction of this child. And, um, of course,
I knew God had forgiven me. I confessed it. I repented. And, uh. But,
you know, the regret lingered, and it haunted me for years.
It haunted me, uh, until finally, one day, I said,
you know what? I'm going to write a letter to
that unborn child who I had, who I had killed.

(28:55):
And so I sat down and I wrote this letter,
and I said, first of all, that I wish I
could go back. I was sorry for what I did.
I wish I could go back and do it over
and not taken that road. But I can't do that
and expressing my regret and and I said, you know,
most of all, someday I want to get to know
you in heaven and spend time with you and, and

(29:18):
put my arms around you and love you. And so
I saved that letter. I put it in the upper
desk drawer in my office. And it was there for years,
and it would remind me when I'd see it. Um,
you know, that that, um, you know, God had forgiven me,
and yet I was keeping it alive. And and then
one day, I lost it. And I to this day,

(29:40):
I don't know how. How did it disappear? What did
it go? I have no idea. Somehow God allowed that
letter to get lost. And what struck me was the
verse from the Old Testament where God said, I, even
I am he who blots out your transgressions for my
own sake, and remembers your sin no more. And it

(30:00):
was like God was saying, Lee. Yes, it was a
horrible thing. It was a terrible thing that you did,
but you confessed it. I've forgiven you, and I'm acting
as though it never happened. I've forgotten it. Um. And
that that gave me, um, a boast of, um, uh,
faith and and encouragement. And to this day, I, I time, um,

(30:22):
raising funds for crisis pregnancy centers around the country. In fact,
my ministry, at least Global Ministries, is currently involved with
a huge organization called Preborn to create a curriculum for
workers at crisis pregnancy centers. How they can share Jesus
with these women who come in with the crisis pregnancy. Um,
so it's something I believe in because I know what

(30:43):
it's like to have gone down that path and to
live with regret. And I'm just thankful that God forgives
and somehow he chooses to forget. Yeah.

S1 (30:54):
And that's the at care net. If you click that link,
the resource, the free resource is forgiven and set free,
which is, uh, for April's Abortion Recovery Awareness Month. Uh,
so it all goes together. Thank you for sharing that story.
There's somebody who needed to hear that today, Lee. There's
somebody who's been living under the weight of that decision
that they made long to last week or, you know,

(31:17):
30 years ago. Yeah. Who needed to know? Yeah. You
can walk forward. It's it's there. It's the truth, you know?
So you got to acknowledge it. But God doesn't want you.
It's the enemy that wants you to live under the
weight of that. That's right. And feel like you have
to make up for it. You have to pay for it. Uh,
so I wanted to say that. All right, one more
story here, and then we'll go back to your calls. Uh,

(31:39):
this woman was blind for more than a dozen years.
She wasn't blind from birth. What happened?

S2 (31:47):
She had an incurable condition. Uh, blind for about a
dozen years. Uh, she went to a school for the blind.
She learned to read Braille. She walked with a white cane,
and she married a Baptist pastor. And one night, they're
getting ready to go to bed. She's already in bed.
He comes up and he's crying, and he puts his
hand on her shoulder, and he begins to pray. And
he says, Lord, I know you can cure my wife.

(32:07):
I know you can heal her. And Lord, I pray
you do it tonight. And with that she opened her
eyes to perfect eyesight, and her eyesight remained. For now,
it's been more than 47 years. So this is a
case that goes way back. It's it's been researched by
four medical researchers published in a peer reviewed medical journal.

(32:28):
And it's just one of many cases, documented cases where, um,
I don't know how you can come to any other
conclusion other than God. And it does two things for us.
First of all, it reminds us that God is real
and there is a supernatural realm in which God resides,
and yet he interacts with our world to this day.

(32:50):
He still reaches down and heals at moments. Um, but
the other thing it does is when I was an
atheist and I would take a moment to read a
little bit of the gospels. Um, I always discounted them
as being fanciful and fairy tales because they talked about miracles. Well,
if we have documented miracles that are happening today, then

(33:12):
they could have happen in the first century as well.
And so this bolsters the credibility of the Gospels when
we come to realize that we have these documented cases
of the miraculous taking place even today.

S1 (33:24):
Kayla is in Tennessee. Kayla, you're on with Lee Strobel.
Go right ahead.

S4 (33:29):
Hi. Thanks, Chris, and thanks, Lee, for all your work.
I've read, I think, all of your books and look
forward to reading this one. Oh. Thank you. I just
wanted to call in with my experience. Um, so I
was a fairly young believer, probably, you know, three, four
years in my faith. And my father, um, had an
incurable cancer, and he was dying. And one particular night,

(33:53):
I just started crying out to the Lord. Why? You
know why. Why does he have to go through this?
You know how you do. And I was off and
on asleep doing this throughout the night. And all of
a sudden, it came to me, uh, you know, I
knew afterwards it was a temptation, but it came to me,
asked my great grandparents, and I was like, oh yeah,

(34:16):
genius idea. They're already there. I don't know if they were,
I don't know, I wasn't a Christian as a child.
I don't know if they're in heaven or not, but
I'm like, they've already gone before us. I can ask them.
And as soon as I was like, genius, I started
hearing static and these voices, and I was like. And
it was like to ask Papa and Granny. He kept

(34:36):
coming to me, ask Papa and granny. And I was like,
that's a good idea. And they got closer and just
staticky and different voices, and I could hear them getting closer.
And I was like, ask them. I was like, that's genius.
I can ask them. And all of a sudden it
was like, I'm not supposed to communicate to the dead
that's against God's word. And and I wanted to say,
help me, Jesus. And I felt pinned and I couldn't

(34:58):
say the words and I moaned them. I moaned, help me, Jesus.
And it stopped like a snap. And I told my
friend about it. Like the next day or two. I
told her about it and she said, Kayla, I just
watched Oprah Winfrey like the day before, and she said
she was interviewing a psychic, and she asked her what

(35:20):
it was like to connect to the spirit world. And
she said, well, it's kind of like when you're trying
to tune in a radio and you hear the frequencies,
you hear the static, you hear the voices, and you
just keep trying, and then you'll finally connect with one.
And I was just like, oh my gosh.

S2 (35:39):
Yeah, this is a great example that the demonic world
is real. And I talk about it in my book,
I talk I have a chapter on angels and what
we need to know about them, but also a chapter,
a chapter on demons. And, you know, you had a
connection there with a demonic entity. Um, and it's not
that uncommon. I tell the story about a very highly

(36:02):
respected psychiatrist named Doctor Richard Gallagher. Um, educated at Ivy
League University. Taught teaches part time at some major highly
elite universities in the northeast. Highly respected the former president
of the American Psychiatric Association. I have a quote from
him saying this is a man of integrity, honesty, um,

(36:23):
and professional acumen. And, um, Doctor Gallagher tells the story
of about 20 years ago when he and his wife
had two cats and they loved each other. They slept together.
They were best friends. The cats were just, you know, um,
like buddies. Until one night they began to attack each other.

(36:44):
I mean, they were they were screaming at each other.
They were screeching each other. They were trying to claw
each other, trying to bite each other. They were trying
to kill each other. They're crawling. They had to pull
them apart forcibly and put them in separate rooms. They thought,
what in the world? This is just weird. The next
morning at 9 a.m., the doorbell rings. It was a
pre-established appointment where a Catholic priest was bringing a woman

(37:05):
to him to be Psychiatrically examined this woman, claimed to
be the high priestess of a satanic cult, and was
going to try to determine is she mentally ill or
is there something demonic going on? So the doorbell rings.
At 9:00. He opens the door, hears this self-proclaimed satanic
priestess who smirks at him and looks up at him

(37:26):
and says, so, how'd you like those cats last night?

S1 (37:30):
Mhm.

S2 (37:32):
Um, and a chill went through him and he spent
now the last 20 years researching this area of, of
the demonic and has incredibly incredible stories of cases in
which people, uh, speak in Latin, the language they don't know. Uh,
one case where they had eight eyewitnesses, I recall, who

(37:53):
saw someone levitating off of a bed. Uh, a case
where a diminutive woman picked up a a large Lutheran
deacon and threw him across a room. Um, I mean,
these are cases of demonic possession that, uh, are hard
to refute. And, um, you know, if angels exist, um,

(38:14):
it makes sense that, uh, that the demons would as well,
because the same source the Bible describes both. And, of course,
Jesus was known as an exorcist. He was known as
someone who would cast out demons. And if that happened
in the first century, it makes sense. It could happen today. Um,
the good news is, Christians cannot be demon possessed. Uh,

(38:35):
we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. We can't be
simultaneously indwelt by a demonic spirit. Um, but they can
harass us. They can hector us. They can frustrate us.
They can try to derail us. That's true. But I
think the greatest strategy of of Satan has been, um.
You know what? I'm going to I'm going to I'm
going to affect more people. Easier if I go to,

(38:59):
let's say, I don't know, Hollywood and let's say I
influence the development of some motion pictures and television shows
that are really hilarious. They're funny, they're well done. And
yet the underlying values are non-Christian. In fact, they're anti-Christian. And, um,
you know, if I, if I can influence that, then
those films and those TV shows will influence millions of

(39:22):
people around the country. Um, so I think, you know,
I think he operates on that level. But, you know,
demons can operate on an individual level as well. And
as I say, I interviewed a seminary professor who's an
expert on this, trying to bring some sense to it
and some logic to it so that we're not buying
into a lot of the, um, paranormal stuff that you

(39:45):
might see that's not supported by Scripture, because.

S1 (39:48):
Scripture.

S2 (39:49):
Is our plumb line.

S1 (39:50):
You don't get into the the UFOs. Maybe that's your
next book. You don't get into the UFOs and the
paranormal as much. But I'm really glad that you put
this together, because it is eye opening and a lot
of people who are going through it seeing the supernatural.
The title of the book, a lot of people who
are going through it are seeing for the very first

(40:10):
time and asking that question, well, maybe there is something
on the other side, and if there is, what is
there and how do I get there? And Lee's answer
is Jesus. Of course, you find seeing the supernatural at
Chris Fabry live. Org. More straight ahead. Lee struggles at

(40:40):
the back fence today. Seeing the supernatural is the book
at Chris Fabry lives. Investigating angels, demons, mystical dreams, near-death encounters,
and other mysteries of the unseen world. Before we end
here today, especially thinking of Holy Week, passion week, Easter.
That's coming up. Um. Um, there's a supernatural event that

(41:03):
happened on that Sunday morning called the resurrection. And so
I want you to, uh, parse that for me and,
and anybody who's listening, who's wondering, you know, how do
I make it to the other side? Well, you die,
but how do I make it to the place where
he is?

S2 (41:22):
Yeah, I have a chapter in the book on the
resurrection because it is the linchpin of the Christian faith.
It is the foundation because Jesus clearly claimed to be
the Son of God. At one point he said, I
and the father are one. And the Greek word for one.
There is not masculine as neuter, which means Jesus wasn't
saying I and the father are the same person. He
was saying I and the father are the same thing.
We're one in nature, we're one in essence. And the

(41:44):
audience picked up stones to kill him because he said, you,
you're just a man. You're claiming to be God. But
if he returned from the dead, uh, that's good evidence.
He was telling the truth. That's why the resurrection establishes
that Jesus is who he claimed to be the unique
Son of God. The evidence I talk about in the book,
but one of my favorite stories was when I was
a law student in law school. One of my heroes

(42:05):
was the greatest defense attorney in the world. He was
in the Guinness Book of World Records for the most
murder trials, one as a defense attorney in a row,
245 trials in a row, either one before a jury
or on appeal. Nobody had ever done that. He was
knighted twice by Queen Elizabeth. He was appointed to the
Supreme Court of his country, and he was kind of

(42:26):
a skeptic about the resurrection until someone challenged him and said,
Sir Lionel Luckhoo, that was his name. You're the greatest
defense attorney in the world. Have you ever taken your
monumental legal skill and applied it to the historical record
about the resurrection, and come to an informed conclusion? He said, no,
I haven't, but I will. So he did that. He
investigated from this this incredible legal mind, the evidence for

(42:49):
the resurrection of Jesus. And I'll recite to you one
sentence he wrote that summarizes conclusion. He said, I say
unequivocally that the evidence for the resurrection of Jesus Christ
is so overwhelming that it compels acceptance by proof, which
leaves absolutely no room for doubt. This from the greatest
defense attorney who ever lived. By the way, I told

(43:10):
that story at Saddleback Church in California when I moved
out there to be a teaching pastor in the year 2000,
and a woman came up to me afterwards, she said, hey,
you're moving into my neighborhood. I live a few houses down.
We haven't met yet. I said, oh, great to meet you.
She said, yeah, I'm Sir Lionel Luckhoo. Sister?

S1 (43:25):
No.

S2 (43:26):
Yeah. What are the odds of that? And she not
only confirmed.

S1 (43:30):
That same thing is what you did, Lee.

S2 (43:33):
That's.

S1 (43:34):
That's what you did and have done with your whole life,
isn't it?

S2 (43:37):
That's right. I ended up doing what he did using
my legal training, my journalism training to investigate a lot
of the evidence for God, but especially the resurrection. Because, Chris,
you're right. It is the key to everything. Because if
if it is true, it changes everything. It means Jesus
is who he claimed to be the unique Son of God.
It means when he said, I'm the way, the truth,
and the life. No one comes to the father except

(44:00):
through me. He was telling the truth. And so, you know,
anyone who's who's listening, who says, I want to make sure, yes,
there is a supernatural realm, I believe that. I believe
there's a heaven. I believe there's a hell. How can
I know that I will spend eternity with God? Because
the Bible says you can know for sure, uh, that
you are adopted by God into his family forever. And

(44:22):
you just pray a prayer of repentance and faith and say,
Jesus as best I can. I do believe you are
the Son of God. You proved it by returning from
the dead. Uh, I admit that I'm a sinner, and
I turn from that. And in an attitude of repentance
and faith, I receive your free gift of forgiveness and

(44:47):
eternal life that you purchased for me on the cross
when you died as my substitute. Help me to live
the kind of life that you want me to live.
Because from this moment on, I am yours.

S1 (45:03):
And then you live forgiven rather than, oh, I've got
to live to earn my way into heaven. I've got to.
You know I can't do this and this and this.
It's like, no, when you have that forgiveness, then you
want to please your father. You want to draw near
to him. You want to learn of him. You want
to find the person you know. You mentioned the Muslims
having the dreams. You want to find the person who

(45:24):
can lead you there, because that's the whole reason behind
what we're seeing. I think with the what's happening in
the Muslim world is drawn closer to who Jesus really is,
rather than who we think he is. Right.

S2 (45:40):
Exactly. And, you know, to know that God not only
will forgive you of your sins, he'll forget them. He
acts as though it never happened. That is a liberating
truth that has really helped me in terms of the
terrible sins I committed before I was a Christian.

S1 (45:54):
Not only that. Not. Not only. I'll do you one better.
It's the righteousness of Jesus is placed on us. So
it's not as if I never did anything wrong. It's
as if I did everything perfectly right like he did.
Because I have his righteousness. Oh, it gets good. It
gets great.

S2 (46:12):
It does.

S1 (46:13):
Lee, it's so great to get to talk with you again.
Thanks for stopping by the back fence. God bless you, friend.

S2 (46:18):
Thank you Chris. God bless you.

S1 (46:20):
Lee Strobel, author of Seeing the Supernatural. It's our featured
resource at Chris Fabry Live. Sorry we didn't get to
more of your calls here today. Uh, great response on
the phones. Thank you for your support of the back fence.
Just go to Chris Fabry and come on back tomorrow
for another conversation on Chris Fabry Live. A production of

(46:41):
Moody Radio, a ministry of Moody Bible Institute.