April 15, 2025 • 46 mins
If you had been there when Jesus taught with authority and performed miracles, would you have believed He was the Messiah? Dr. John Koessler returns to talk about the struggle to believe many followers of Jesus experienced. Even when informed of the Resurrection, they thought the women were hysterical. Is their struggle the same as ours today? Let’s talk about it on Chris Fabry Live.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:05):
If you had been there to see the miracles, to
hear the teaching, to feel the authority that came from Jesus,
you would have followed him, no doubt, right? I would
have I wouldn't have asked any questions in that upper room.
I would have figured out what Judas was about to
do and tackled him before he got out of there.
In that upper room, I would have seen nobody had
washed the feet of the people who were around the table,
(00:28):
and I would have girded a towel around me to
keep Jesus from having to do that. Would I really
have done that? All I have to do to answer
that question is to look at my life today. Are
there any unwashed feet around me? Yeah, but I'm kind
of busy. I got important things to do today at
the radio backyard Fence, our correspondent to Passion Week, Doctor
(00:49):
John Kessler, is going to talk about the doubt we
read about in the Gospels. Why is it there? What
does it say to us today? And is there, in
a sense, a comfort in the doubt that you might
be struggling with, struggling to believe even after the resurrection.
They struggled. It's real then and now. Let's get started
(01:10):
first by saying thank you to Ryan McConaughey doing all
things technical. Trish is our producer. Deb's in the chair
today to hear. I'll be answering your calls and thank
you for your support of the program. Last Friday, we
aired a conversation with Doctor Erwin Lutzer about prodigals and
praying for them. If you have a prodigal, I want
you to hear one thing that Doctor Lutzer said.
S2 (01:31):
In my book. I talk about the fact that sin
has to run its course. The father of the prodigal
did not even go looking for his boy, but the
pigsty and hunger did what nothing else could do. It
was in the pigsty that the boy said, I'm returning home.
S1 (01:53):
The prayer that Doctor Luca talked about in his little
book is let sin become bitter, so grace may become sweet.
I want to send you a copy of A Practical
Guide for Praying Parents by Doctor Erwin Lutzer. I thank
you for two more weeks. Maybe you've never given to
the program. This would be a great resource for your heart.
(02:14):
Call or click through today. 866958669532279 or go to Chris. Org.
Scroll down. You'll see how you can give a gift
to support us right there and receive a practical guide
for praying parents. Anybody? You have a prodigal. Go to
Chris Fabry lives. Doctor John Kessler is an award winning author,
(02:39):
retired faculty emeritus of pastoral studies at Moody Bible Institute.
He writes for today and the Word Mature Living magazine.
He is the author of a new book that is
listed at the website. Click through. Today's information on things above.
The earthly importance of heavenly reality. His podcast is A
stranger in the House of God. Doctor Kessler, how you doing?
(03:02):
Welcome back.
S3 (03:03):
I'm good. Chris, happy to be with you.
S1 (03:06):
Why did you want to talk about doubt? Now, this
is not the usual fare of Passion Week.
S3 (03:11):
No. And, you know, it's something that's been growing in
my mind over really several months now. I've been with
a small group of friends. We've been going through the
gospel of Mark, and I have been struck. How much? Uh,
first of all, how much doubt figures in their experience
(03:33):
with Jesus. That's how much that is part of the
lesson that they're learning. And then as Easter week came up,
I was impressed by how much doubt figures in the
resurrection story, especially in the encounters of the disciples after
Jesus rose from the dead. And for me, the epigram
(03:56):
of the whole experience is the phrase that Jesus uses
to describe the two on the road to Emmaus. You know,
as they're talking about the stories that, you know, what
they had heard about what had taken place with Jesus
and their confusion about it. And Jesus says he calls
(04:17):
them slow to believe. And it was like a light
went on. And when and I realized that in some
ways that is the epigram of the whole experience of
the disciples, that that is their story, that they are
the epitome of what it is to be slow to believe,
which is not the way I think I had previously
(04:39):
viewed them. I had previously sort of viewed them as
the heroes of faith. You know what I want to be?
And now I look at them and say, well, actually
they are, you know, that I, I are like them,
you know, because I, because I, because I myself identify
with that struggle. Uh, it was it was fundamental to
(05:00):
my conversion experience, where that was the great struggle for
me when I was considering, uh, the Christian faith and
saw myself as an outsider. And the first real spiritual
conflict I had to deal with was the the demand
for faith in Christ. And I, I remember just, you know,
(05:22):
having a conversation in prayer, uh, about that and saying to,
to God, you know, I, I just don't see that
within me. If that's going to be there, you've got
to put it there. And I just don't know how
to get to that space where I believe. And then,
of course, I you know, I think that is the persistent, uh,
(05:44):
struggle with every follower of Jesus as we're, we're walking
down this pilgrim path and Circumstance after circumstance were put
in a position where where Christ is calling us to trust,
often in what seems to be outrageous under outrageous circumstances.
(06:04):
And again, that's that's coming out of as I as
I'm walking the path with the disciples in the gospel
of Mark, these situations where Jesus expects them to have
faith and lovingly, I think, chides them, you know, his
nickname for them is you little faiths. You have little faith. Uh,
he chides them for not having him. You know, he
(06:27):
he chides them for not having faith in situations where
it would. It's completely unreasonable that he would expect them
to have faith. You know, so. So Peter's walking on
the water and he sinks and Jesus says, why did
you doubt? Well, of course he doubted. You know, I mean,
look around you. Why why did you think he wouldn't doubt. Uh,
(06:50):
that that experience to me of number one, it comes
up again and again as I'm looking at the the
disciples interacting with Jesus in their story all the way
through the resurrection and afterwards, and therefore and it resonates
with me because I see it in my own experience
with Christ. So, so, so.
S1 (07:11):
If you are listening to question, that's very good. That's
that's exactly up what we're going to talk about today.
And I just want to say to you, as you listen,
don't know what you're going through and maybe you're hearing
this live and you want to call us and converse
or you're listening to the podcast 50 years from now
and you're hearing this conversation, um, God can meet you
(07:32):
right in the middle of your doubt, in the middle
of your struggles. And the doubt may be about God,
or it might be about the circumstances that God has
allowed in your life, right? Life right now that you
can't understand why he's done that. And so you're not
doubting him necessarily. You're you're doubting yourself in this situation.
(07:52):
And how are you responding that all and the disciples
did that the apostles had that happen to them too.
So let me give our number (877) 548-3675. If at any
point you want to talk with Doctor Kessler and yours
truly about this, maybe you're struggling with that kind of
doubt and you've been beating yourself up for a long time. Um,
(08:14):
you can call about that. And that was one of
the things as I was preparing for this, John, I
was thinking that God, um, baked in. I want to
be careful here because I won't be heretical. Because God's
not the author of evil, but he baked in the
ability to doubt. You can see that going all the
way back in the garden. You know, he didn't keep
(08:36):
the evil one from whispering. Did God really say there
was the potential for doubt? Just as there is the
potential for doubt in our lives today? Talk about that.
S3 (08:46):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's the first test of the human race,
isn't it? This basic test of faith. So. And and
it is a it revolves around God's word. Because the
question that that the serpent asks Eve is, well, did
he say, did God really say? And again, that's I
(09:08):
think that's the question that we ask of ourselves often
when we're wrestling with our own doubts is, is the
question of, first of all, you know, okay, it's either, well,
God said this, but did he mean it? Or God
said this, what did he mean? Or God said this,
but this is my situation. You know, another instance of
that struck me is, is the feeding of the 5000.
(09:31):
You know, where the disciples come to Jesus? He's he's taught.
He's taught all day. It's been really busy. The disciples
come to Jesus with a very reasonable, uh, concern. They say, well,
you know, it's getting late. There's a lot of people here.
Maybe you should. Maybe you should send them away so
they can get some food. And I don't think that
(09:52):
they're just self-interested when they're doing that. They're hungry too.
They haven't. But I think it's legitimate. And then Jesus
says to them, Will you feed them? You know, it's
it's the same kind of it's the same kind of
situation that he puts them in again and again, where
he in one sense, he calls for faith in situations
(10:16):
where faith seems to be utterly unreasonable. Yes, I think
I think in the modern era, we have worked very
hard to try to establish the rationality of faith. I especially,
I think, you know, as a young Christian, I can
remember there being a lot of talk about the reasonableness
of faith and a lot of talk about evidences, you know,
(10:38):
evidence that demands a verdict, you know, and, and, uh,
and yet when I look at the way Jesus is
interacting with his disciples in the Gospels, and often in
the way that he interacts with me in my own life.
He's he is demanding a faith in circumstances where the
evidence seems to point in a completely opposite direction, so
(11:01):
that the only proof I have of of, uh, where
what what I can trust in is Jesus himself that
he's not, he's not saying, well, look at look at
this circumstance. Look at this piece of evidence. Look at these,
this piece of evidence. Now, you should trust me in
this situation. Or look at this decision you made and
look at your experience. What he simply does as he
(11:25):
does again and again in the Gospels. He puts himself
in front of me and says, you need to trust me.
S1 (11:32):
Look at.
S3 (11:33):
Me. You need to focus your attention on me.
S1 (11:36):
And the patients there, the patience of God the Father.
You see throughout the Old Testament the patience of the
son in this situation. This is going to be a
really encouraging program, I think, for somebody who has been
beating themselves up because its faith is a struggle for
you and you have all of these doubts. I want
(11:58):
you to listen to what Doctor John Kessler has to say.
There's more to come. This is Chris Fabry live on
Moody Radio online. Chris Fabry live. Have doubt. If you
(12:19):
have doubt, listen to Chris very live. We're going to
erase all your doubts. No, we're not going to do that.
But I think you will feel affirmed in the struggle
that you have to place your faith fully in what
God has done for you. So Doctor John Kessler has
come alongside us today at the radio backyard fence. If
you go to Chris Fabry Live, click through today's information.
(12:41):
You will see a new book on things above. It
just came out about a month ago. The earthly importance
of heavenly reality. You can find out more about it
again at Chris Fabry, Livorno. And we are going to
take your calls today. (877) 548-3675. Remember the old bumper sticker?
(13:01):
Got milk? Got doubt. Well, listen here today or give
us a call. What do you want to say to
the person who is in that situation right now?
S3 (13:10):
John and I want to say, I particularly want to
talk to the person who is a Christian who they believe.
It's like. It's like the man who brought his Son
to Jesus. Lord, I believe, help my unbelief that that
I want to encourage you not to be so impatient
(13:30):
with yourself, with respect to doubt, because I think that's
what happens is we are disappointed and we are impatient.
We are impatient with ourselves when it comes to doubt.
We're impatient with others when it comes to doubt. And
I'll give you in a minute, I'll give one reason
why I think we should not be so impatient. But
(13:52):
the other thing I want to say is, while I
don't want you to be impatient with yourself, with your doubts,
I don't want you to be persuaded by them either. That, uh,
you know, I'm not. What I'm not saying is. Oh,
you know, everybody doubts just, you know, just go down.
Just let go and go down into that pit. That's, uh.
That's not what I'm saying either. I was again thinking
(14:14):
about the, uh, the Easter events and and the sort
of the, the whole picture of the account that that
we have. And I was struck by something that Matthew
describes when he is, uh, talking about Jesus, sort of
his last conversation after this, as if I'm figuring the, the,
(14:37):
the dating. Right. This is after the 40 days. He's,
you know, he's raised from the dead. He spent 40
days talking to the disciples about the kingdom. And he
it says he appeared to them. In acts one three,
it says he appeared to them over a period of
40 days and spoke about the kingdom of God. So
Jesus is repeatedly appearing bodily to the disciples. He's having
(15:00):
conversations with them. We know from several of the accounts
that he he has. He eats with them, you know,
he he invites Thomas to touch him physically. He's giving these, uh,
incontrovertible proofs that he has risen from the dead. And
then in Matthew 28, it talks about his sort of
(15:21):
his last conversation as he just before he ascends, uh,
where he commissions the church, he ascends into heaven. And
then in Matthew 2817, it says, some doubted, you know,
and I you know, when I read it, I'm, I'm
like my first reaction is impatience. I'm astonished. I'm thinking
(15:41):
to myself, what is wrong with these people? Because, and
I think it's not hard for us to be impatient
with Christ's disciples, because from where we stand, they appear
to have had every advantage that that we lack. You know,
they know. They knew Jesus face to face. They spent
night and day with him for three years during his
earthly ministry. They saw him die. They they were the
(16:04):
first ones to speak with him after he had risen
from the dead. So they experienced what we wish for ourselves,
the way that John later put it. He says that,
you know, they saw, they heard and they touched him.
And that's what we think. You know, if Jesus, you know,
this Bible is okay, this Bible stuff is okay. But,
you know, if he would just appear, if he would
(16:26):
just speak to me, if he would just change this
situation for me, then I could really believe these people
had all of that. And then some doubted. And he's
like he's in front of them. He's going up into
the air. When? When they're asking, they're they're thinking to themselves,
I don't I don't know, I'm not so sure about this. So, uh,
(16:50):
so once I kind of get over my initial impatience,
I think to myself, well, yes, that is exactly what
my experience is again and again and and also when
I look at the way that Jesus spent 40 days
to again and again prove that he had risen from
(17:11):
the dead, that he was who he said he was,
that he was working out this plan, that that in
itself assumes that Jesus knows that this is a hard sell.
He is not surprised that there is a slowness to believe.
He chides us for it in a in a loving way. Um,
but I think he is more patient with it than
(17:34):
we are. So that's what I want to say. You know,
don't be so shocked. Why are you so shocked?
S1 (17:39):
Yes. And that's going to be encouraging for somebody who's
in the in that trench of doubt today. Doctor John
Kessler is with us. If you want to find out
more about him, go to the website. chris.org. I want
to make this a conversation with our listeners and where
they're going. And Myla is on the line. Myla, why
did you call today?
S4 (18:01):
Hi. Um, I was in the Bible and I was
reading today about the disciples and how they saw exactly
what he just said, and I was thinking the same thing.
Why don't they get it? They see everything. And here
I am. I'm just out here trying to believe what
I haven't physically seen or touched. Or so I've been
(18:21):
going through. Today's kind of a rough day. It's just
I went through a major surgery and it's been a
long recovery, and it's today is the day where it
feels kind of, you know, tough. Yeah. Um, yeah. So.
But doubting, like, came to my mind today. Um, why
isn't it. Why am I, you know, I'm getting better, but,
(18:44):
you know, uh, I have to find a new job, and, um,
friends have kind of, you know, after it.
S1 (18:50):
Milo, did you did your job that you had. Did
you have to leave that because of the surgery and
the time? Yes.
S4 (18:58):
Yes, it was, uh, an emergency surgery, and, um, and
I'm recovering well, but, like, I have, um, my daughter
who is financially taking care of me, um, and she
just recently lost her job. And so it's a scary time.
And I'm in my Bible every day. I go to church,
I go to Pastor Mark's, um, church. And, um, I
(19:21):
feel like today is like, okay, Lord, when's it going
to happen? You know, you know, when is the job
coming or when is that miracle coming or when is
it coming? And today is the day where I feel
a little weak.
S1 (19:35):
Ah, well, you. And look at this. You made this
connection and your weakness right here. I just want to
encourage you, Myla. There is somebody who is listening right
now who's going through something similar to you who just said, boy,
I wish I could call these guys, but I'd probably
yell at them because I don't I don't hear, you know,
and they're hearing your heart and they're encouraged because Myla's
(19:59):
right where I am. So now Jon Kessler's going to
make everything good now, right, Jon?
S3 (20:05):
Well, first of all, I want to say that I'm
so glad that you called Myla and shared your story,
because let me just tell you, and I'm not trying
to turn this back on myself. Uh, it's this is
one of those, uh, it's a correspondence here. I want
to tell you what my week was like last week.
On Wednesday, I got up in the morning feeling pretty
good until I didn't. And, uh, by, like, 10:00, o'clock. Uh,
(20:32):
we had to call an ambulance. Who took me to.
Who took me to the emergency room for a for
a for an issue, and I and I and I
like everything you're saying, like, I completely I completely identify
with it. So for the last, you know, since we've
been working through it, I'm thinking like, Lord, this is
like a stupid plan, you know? Like what? What what
(20:53):
were you what were you thinking? Like, you know, I'm.
I want to be used by you. And this, like,
I don't know, it was embarrassing. So. So then there's
a there's a there is a point to this that
doesn't really have to do with me. So. So my
wife and I, Jane, we were walking down the street,
you know, I'm trying to get my, uh, legs back
(21:14):
and and a neighbor that we don't know real well,
but but, you know, we have conversations with. She comes
out of the door, she says to me, you changed
my life because some some because somehow she. She saw
the ambulance she was trying to get, uh, information to.
(21:37):
I don't know, she somehow she looked up. She looked up,
and she started the Lord started somehow started to work
in her heart. I don't I don't even know how
he did it. I don't even know what he said.
It was like. It was from my point of view.
It's like I. I'm. I'm just a piece of the
furniture here. What I'm saying is, what I'm saying is
(21:58):
you don't know what God is doing in this situation,
but he is doing something. He's certainly doing something in
you which is important to him. The, the the person
that you are, the faith that you have, the faith
that is being strengthened through this struggle, that in itself
(22:18):
is important to him and the and the. And you
see this repeatedly again in the Gospels that the this
the Jesus allows the disciples to go into circumstances that
seem completely contrary. You know, no sane person would orchestrate
(22:40):
the situation like that, thinking, oh, this will strengthen my faith.
Let's make her sick. You know, let's let's let her
lose her job. That'll really make her feel, uh, good
about her relationship with God. You know? So, uh, um,
so I think this, again, is a case where, number
(23:01):
one in that place where you're feeling questioning you, I
think you need to be patient enough with yourself to,
first of all, express that to God as honestly as
you can. He's big enough to take it. I think
in the process, you need to be patient enough with
God to know that, and your own history will probably
(23:26):
tell you this if your own history doesn't, you can
look through the scriptures to see that this is the
story again and again, that there's something that he is
working out that is not apparent to you, and you
really won't be able to see it until all the
pieces are in place. And and in the process, it
(23:47):
may be very uncomfortable. That is, uh, you know, I mean,
it's part of the plan I'm not really excited about,
but but I have seen it repeatedly. I've seen it
repeatedly that that God allows his, his, uh, his children
to be put in circumstances that are not the ones
(24:08):
they would choose for themselves that are not as comfortable
as they would like. And then he shows up in
completely unexpected ways to do things that they would not anticipate.
And what? So, uh, I don't like that on and
on about it.
S1 (24:26):
I like that note. And I you mentioned your daughter
and you know, you you you two are commiserating. She
doesn't have the same physical difficulty, but you both have
lost this job. So you're both in that same boat.
You're both trying to trust, you know, to trust. Well,
and whatever that means on the other side of this.
So my guess is you two are getting a little
(24:47):
bit closer than maybe you even wanted to. Is that right?
S4 (24:51):
Well, we got pretty close when I had to move
in with her to, um. She helped me through the recovery,
the initial recovery. So we're pretty close anyways. But, um. Yeah. Yeah,
we're we're hanging on to Jesus and waiting for, like,
I wait in expectancy because I'm a I'm a person
who firmly believes something's going to happen. But those days
(25:13):
where it's like, okay, is it today because I'm exhausted?
S5 (25:17):
Yes. Yeah, that's where you are right there. And we
also take a quick break here.
S1 (25:22):
John, I want you to respond to her when we
come back from a quick break. But Myla, they're going
to be people around the country who are praying for
you and who are going to be lifting you up
in this physical situation, as well as the job situation
for you and your daughter. You are not alone in that,
as you probably know. So I want you to hang on.
We have a little bit more to talk about and
(25:43):
more calls to take. (877) 548-3675. This is Chris Fabry live
on Moody Radio. Talking about doubt today with our correspondent
(26:05):
to doubt, Doctor John Kessler. The people at Care Net
know that there are many people who doubt God's forgiveness
for something that they've done in the past, something like abortion.
April is Abortion Recovery Awareness Month, and if that is
in your rear view and if the enemy is whispering
to you. God can't forgive that, don't you? Don't you listen?
(26:27):
Don't believe it. God wants you to be forgiven. He
wants you to live fully and freely from the heart
without condemnation. There's a free resource from Carenet that you
can download. If you click the Green Connect link at Livorno,
you can download that. If you or somebody you know
is carrying this burden of guilt and shame and grief,
(26:49):
there's an awful lot of hope. Click the Green Connect
link at Chris Fabbri Livorno and you can download your
copy of Forgiven and Set Free. Again, just go to
Chris Fabbri Livorno. Doctor Jon Kessler is joining us. I'm
so glad that Myla called Jon and described this situation
(27:10):
that she is in. You were going to say one
more thing to her. Go ahead.
S3 (27:14):
Yeah, just that I you know, I think that as
she's describing her experience, I'm reminded again of how many
of the faith instances the you know, the faith trials
that you find not just in the New Testament, but
all through Scripture, are circumstances that are that humble us.
(27:37):
You know, we're we're debilitated in some way or something
is taken from us or something happens to us that
makes us feel weak and vulnerable, and we're put in
a position of complete dependency, and we wrestle with that.
And it it does remind me, um, of how much
(27:58):
we tend to shift the focus when it comes to faith.
We shift the focus away from the object of our faith, Christ,
to ourselves. And I think this is a false perception
that we have of faith, that we see it as
some kind of inner strength, uh, that we need to
find in ourselves, and that when we're put in a
(28:19):
position of weakness. Uh, what happens is there's this inversion
that takes place, and we are thrust upon God, and
we realize that he is our only support. And that's
that is the essence of faith. Faith isn't this strong
energy that I have that you know that I know
(28:40):
I can do this. Uh, that might be positive thinking.
Faith is a sense of weakness. Faith is a sense
that if God doesn't do this for me, it doesn't
get done.
S5 (28:54):
So total dependence.
S1 (28:56):
I like that. I like that coming into and you
see that in the disciples, and then you read the
book of acts and you see them growing in there.
They're still dependent, but then they are acting on that dependence. So, Mila,
thank you for calling. I want you to listen to
what Kristen has to say in Michigan. Kristen, why did
you call today?
S6 (29:17):
I called because I was listening to her story and
my heart felt it. A year and a half ago
and an eight month period, I lost three people, my
immediate family that were all working and healthy my my
father and then my husband, and then my mother and
(29:38):
I lost my job in the mix because I just,
I couldn't be at work. I had three celebration of
life to prepare and trying to hold myself together. And
I just wanted to let her know. And I and
I believe from hearing her that she knows this already,
but I want to encourage her, um, to know that girl.
God's got you and he loves you and he adores you.
(30:03):
And like the other gentleman or somebody said, you got
a history with God, his story in your life where
he's brought you through so many things in your lifetime,
where you can look back and you can be reminded
of his goodness, reminded of his faithfulness. He is a
good father, and even though you can't see it, my
(30:24):
friend or whoever else is listening. He is in control
and he has got your best interest. And I'll tell you,
during the time when my husband was incubated, I was
crying out to the Lord and I always came back.
I was in the book of John, and I always
came back. And I laid my heart before the Lord
what my desire was. I wanted my husband to be
(30:46):
with me, but I couldn't help but remember Jesus and saying,
not my will, not my will.
S7 (30:56):
But your will. Because what is your job or your house,
or losing somebody? God's love is perfect and he's he
does not wish to harm us or hurt us. He
is making us complete.
S6 (31:15):
Lacking.
S7 (31:16):
Nothing. And so I just want to encourage her and
others that the Lord is with us and we don't
understand everything. We don't. We can't. We are human. We
are fragile. He is so good and he will reveal it.
And if you've been walking with the Lord, you already
(31:38):
know how good he is. And you can just stand
on that. Stand on his faithfulness in your life.
S5 (31:46):
You know what, Kristen?
S1 (31:47):
There's something going on here today. And I. John, I
think you feel it too. So, Myla, I want to
bring you back what you've just heard from Kristen. What's
going on in your heart as you listen to that?
S4 (31:59):
Just it is God's will. And every day I tell him,
you can break me. You can take everything. Just build
me up, build me up. And today was just that
day where I thought like, okay, is it, are you
building yet? So I thank you, Kristen, for like giving
me those words of encouragement. I know things don't always
go our way, and I am a strong Christian and
(32:20):
I do want to be a have a testimony to
show that maybe even the non-believers that watch this, just
like Christian just said. She said she just went through
all of that and now she's building me up. So
I want to be that person for someone else eventually.
S1 (32:36):
Well, you know, how you become a strong Christian, though,
is you allow yourself to be weak, you know? And
that's what you did. You just you just said, here's
where I am. This is where I'm struggling. So that's
not that's not strength, it's weakness. But in real sense,
it's his strength that allowed you to get through. So
hang on. I want Deb to get your information. Kristin.
(32:56):
God bless you. Thank you. And this. John, this is
exactly what the body is supposed to do for we're
supposed to do for each other, right?
S3 (33:04):
Yeah. I think that's another element when when we're talking
about the struggle that being slow to believe in the
struggle we have with faith that God often will bring
people by to bear witness and who will speak from experience.
You know, in one sense, what they're saying is evidential.
They're talking about how God has dealt with them. They'll
(33:26):
point us to our own history. Where where you see
this in the the Psalms where the psalmist talks to
himself this way, he reminds himself of God's faithfulness in
the past and ultimately, as Jesus did for the two
on the road to Emmaus, he points them to the
testimony of his word of God's Word. That that builds
us up. I will, I will tell you, though, that
(33:48):
sometimes when that person comes alongside me and and they're
reminding me of all these things, I don't always appreciate it.
You know, and actually, in my life, you know, it's
it's my loving, loving wife, Jane, who will remind me
of the truth of God's word, you know, and I'd
rather be grumpy about it, you know, and she comes
with hope, and you know that sometimes the, um, the
(34:12):
affirmation I it takes me a while to accept it.
You know, I have to I have to struggle with
it because I want to be angry. I want to
be irritated with God about it for a while.
S1 (34:23):
And God is. And that's why I think it's, you know,
do you see Jesus? I see God the Father so
patient with us.
S3 (34:29):
Yes. Yeah.
S1 (34:30):
Um, as Kristen was talking, I was thinking about how
often I feel this way. One of my kids the
other night said, uh, grown kids. Have you guys watched
the Who's on first? You know, the Abbott and Costello thing. And, uh,
and every time when they say, you know who's on,
know who's not on second. He is on first. I
don't know, third base. It always comes back to third base.
(34:53):
You know, everything comes back to third base. And I
find in my Christian life that everything comes back to
the third base of Gethsemane. That no matter what you're
dealing with, you got to get you have to get
to the point. God is dragging us kicking and screaming
to the point of not my will, but yours be done.
S3 (35:12):
I and I think you have to be. I think
there's a balance here that one of the things that
I was reflecting on as Christian was talking is I'm
always both in Scripture and in my own experience of
my friends that I have watched. I'm always surprised at
the at the extremity that God will allow in people's
(35:35):
lives when he is doing this faith work in them.
And it's shocking to me in a way, you know,
that he will allow such extreme hardship to take place. And,
and sometimes, uh, you know, pile up, you know, uh,
event upon event and disappointment upon disappointment and grief upon grief.
(35:57):
So that you get to the point and you say, God,
you know, I, I think, I think somebody needs to
step in here and help you with this. Uh, and
then and then I think you point exactly to where
you have to go is to. And then you look at,
you look at Gethsemane. And Gethsemane is a reminder that
(36:19):
God is not arbitrary about these things, that he is, uh,
he is working out this plan that is grounded in love,
whose aim is redemption. But I the the balance, I think,
is that you can get so caught up in the
sorrow of it. I think this is the actually this
(36:41):
is the season we're in. You can get caught up
in the sorrow so that you're so you're dwelling so
much on the suffering that that's all you see, uh,
in the Christian life, that the Christian you basically you
feel like if I'm not suffering, then nothing good is happening.
I don't think that's the gospel. The gospel message works
(37:01):
toward resurrection and redemption and hope. So that all of
this that we experience now, even at its greatest extremity.
That is not the end of the story. Not at
the end of the story. Yet at the end of
the story is a message of hope, of life and
of power. That's what this is tending toward, so that
(37:24):
I don't necessarily think you have to be careful. You
see this in the history of the church, that it
sometimes it gets caught up in the I don't know
how to describe it. You know, the dark side of
the gospel story, the suffering, the pain. And then it
wants to stay there because it's bound up. Sometimes I
think in a, in a false theology of earning that
(37:45):
if I'm not suffering, it's not doing me any good.
So God becomes this distorted, you know, kind of figure
who he wants to dangle us over the fire and say,
you know, hot enough for you. Now you just wait. Uh,
and I think that's a dysfunctional view of God. That
(38:06):
and we can. The more, the more we have hardship.
Sometimes I think you can get drawn down into that,
and you have to look through that to see the hope. Ultimately,
it's the hope of heaven. It's the hope of eternal life.
And that's what this is not just that, but life
beyond that which of which the scriptures haven't even begun
(38:31):
to tell us what happens after that, you know.
S1 (38:34):
So and you've written about that in the new book
that we have linked, if you go to Chris Fabry
live on things above the earthly importance of heavenly reality.
It's our featured resource today by Doctor John Kessler. Just
go to Chris Fabry lives. There is one other person
in the scriptures in the Gospels who doubted, and it
(38:55):
is always bugged me. And I want Doctor Kessler to
talk about that doubt straight ahead on Moody Radio. I
am so glad you made the connection with us here today.
(39:16):
Doctor John Kessler has joined us at the back fence
on things. Above is his latest book. You can find
out more about it at the website. Click through today's
information right there. Chris Fabry lives. But when he talked
about doubt, then I started going through the scriptures and uh,
pre resurrection, post resurrection, looking at Passion Week. The other
(39:36):
person though that came to mind, John is named John
the Baptist. Now this is the same John the Baptist
who in utero leapt when he heard Mary's voice with
Jesus in utero. This is the same John who said,
When Jesus comes, Behold the Lamb of God, who takes
away the sin of the world. So if there's anybody
on the planet who knows who Jesus is and this
(40:00):
plan that is unfolding, it is John the Baptist. And
then in Luke seven, John's disciples told him John summoned
two of his disciples and sent them to the Lord, asking,
are you the one who is to come? Or should
we look for someone else? So even there you can
see John the Baptist with all that was going on
(40:23):
with him, you know, imprisoned. And that story didn't end
very well, quote unquote, as far as from an earthly perspective. Uh,
John was dealing with his own struggles, wasn't he?
S3 (40:35):
Yeah. And I love this example. I think it's the
perfect example, because what's happening in John's struggle with with
his own faith is, is is what happens to us
so often. It's all about expectation. The issue with John.
John knew who Jesus was. He believed that Jesus was
(40:58):
who he said he was, but he also was predisposed
in what he expected Jesus to do. How Jesus was
going to carry out this plan, that is. I think
that's true for all of us. And when I find myself, uh,
to be slow of faith and beginning to question what
God is all about, it is often the result of
(41:19):
this expectation I had of the way things were supposed
to go. This is how the story was supposed to go.
It is why the disciples struggled so much with the
resurrection of Christ, because they were expecting a different storyline. They, they, they,
they had in their mind how this whole thing was
going to come out. It did not end in the cross,
(41:42):
and therefore the cross was completely unexpected. Even though Jesus
told them about it, they were they had blinders on.
They could have sort of filtered that out as they
were listening. So it's only after the fact. And when
you notice when Jesus answers John's disciples. He doesn't give
(42:03):
any new information. He doesn't. He doesn't say to John, oh,
here's some secret knowledge. You know, that will really buoy
you up. He tells John what John already knows. He
tells John what John has already heard. That is, in
a sense, what Jesus expects John to respond to is testimony.
(42:26):
It's it's witness. It's the witness of Christ. We are
on the same ground.
S1 (42:31):
It's what we.
S3 (42:32):
Do. That's right. We we are what we believe is
not the first hand experience of seeing the risen Christ.
Of touching him. Of hearing him, of seeing his miracles.
We believe on the basis of testimony. And when you
think of the other great doubter in the Gospels, which
is Thomas. That's the same place that Jesus goes with Thomas.
(42:56):
He he doesn't he's very he's very kind, I think,
very gentle with Thomas and says here, you know, here
are the wounds. Touch them. Because Thomas said, I won't
believe until I put my fingers in the wounds. But
then Jesus pronounces a blessing on everyone else who believes
without having seen, who believes, who believe without having heard,
(43:18):
who believe on the basis of the testimony of those
who have seen and heard and touched. That's us. That's
where we stand today.
S1 (43:28):
And it's where Wesley is today to Wesley. Why did
you call?
S8 (43:33):
Well, uh, I am, uh, I find myself in a
position of being a caregiver for my wife, uh, who?
We're both strong believers and followers of the ways of
Jesus Christ and, uh, members of the body of Christ and, uh,
in the Bible daily and in prayer daily. And she's
(43:55):
run into a health situation where she's in, a daily
pain that, uh, almost every day leads to tears and
is seeking medical attention. But, uh, it's a situation where
I find myself as a being a caregiver for her. And, uh,
I get, uh, I get frustrated because of, um, uh,
(44:18):
it just seems like, uh, the process is so slow
to try to get her, uh, some healing and even
just some pain relief, uh, and, uh, doubt creeps in and, uh,
even to the point of some anger on my part that, uh,
that that's a distant, uh, a distant thing that only, uh,
(44:38):
it's never it never manifests itself toward her or anything
like that, but just in the situation and anger with
maybe even with, um, well, definitely with the situation, I
hesitate to say with God, but sometimes even angry about it.
So angry with the situation that I expressed my anger
to God. I hope that's the way it does.
S9 (45:00):
It's so frustrating.
S1 (45:01):
Because you love her and you want to help. I
get where you are. John. I hear the music. So
we got a minute. What do you say?
S3 (45:08):
Well, I think, Wesley, you need to keep doing what
you're doing, which is trusting God, caring for your wife
the best that you can and waiting on him. And
as these feelings come up, don't be afraid to openly
express them to the God who loves you and loves
your wife more than you love yourselves.
S1 (45:29):
And I would say to you, Wesley, this this thrusts
you in this place of dependence that John was talking
about a minute ago. And that is you're fully dependent
on him. And so what do you do with that?
You go to him, but you also say, I need help.
And so you bring other people around you who can
give that help, who can, you know, the medical professionals
(45:52):
and those asking questions. Boy, I don't understand this. That's
not weakness. That's really helping her. And I want to
commend you for for going through this valley with her.
I could tell your heart is turned toward her. And
God bless you, friend. We'll be praying for you. And
I'll ask our listeners around the country to pray for
(46:12):
Wesley in this situation with his wife even today, and
with those who are looking at job situations and health situations. Oh,
there's a lot of pain and a lot of doubt.
But we we serve a strong Savior who is able
to join us there. A patient Savior. John Kessler, thanks
(46:33):
for suggesting this topic. Come back and see us real soon, okay?
S3 (46:36):
I will. Chris. Thank you.
S1 (46:38):
If you go to Chris fabry.org, you'll see John's new
book on things above. Chris Fabry lives production of Moody Radio,
a ministry of Moody Bible Institute.
If you had been there to see the miracles, to
hear the teaching, to feel the authority that came from Jesus,
you would have followed him, no doubt, right? I would
have I wouldn't have asked any questions in that upper room.
I would have figured out what Judas was about to
do and tackled him before he got out of there.
In that upper room, I would have seen nobody had
washed the feet of the people who were around the table,
(00:28):
and I would have girded a towel around me to
keep Jesus from having to do that. Would I really
have done that? All I have to do to answer
that question is to look at my life today. Are
there any unwashed feet around me? Yeah, but I'm kind
of busy. I got important things to do today at
the radio backyard Fence, our correspondent to Passion Week, Doctor
(00:49):
John Kessler, is going to talk about the doubt we
read about in the Gospels. Why is it there? What
does it say to us today? And is there, in
a sense, a comfort in the doubt that you might
be struggling with, struggling to believe even after the resurrection.
They struggled. It's real then and now. Let's get started
(01:10):
first by saying thank you to Ryan McConaughey doing all
things technical. Trish is our producer. Deb's in the chair
today to hear. I'll be answering your calls and thank
you for your support of the program. Last Friday, we
aired a conversation with Doctor Erwin Lutzer about prodigals and
praying for them. If you have a prodigal, I want
you to hear one thing that Doctor Lutzer said.
S2 (01:31):
In my book. I talk about the fact that sin
has to run its course. The father of the prodigal
did not even go looking for his boy, but the
pigsty and hunger did what nothing else could do. It
was in the pigsty that the boy said, I'm returning home.
S1 (01:53):
The prayer that Doctor Luca talked about in his little
book is let sin become bitter, so grace may become sweet.
I want to send you a copy of A Practical
Guide for Praying Parents by Doctor Erwin Lutzer. I thank
you for two more weeks. Maybe you've never given to
the program. This would be a great resource for your heart.
(02:14):
Call or click through today. 866958669532279 or go to Chris. Org.
Scroll down. You'll see how you can give a gift
to support us right there and receive a practical guide
for praying parents. Anybody? You have a prodigal. Go to
Chris Fabry lives. Doctor John Kessler is an award winning author,
(02:39):
retired faculty emeritus of pastoral studies at Moody Bible Institute.
He writes for today and the Word Mature Living magazine.
He is the author of a new book that is
listed at the website. Click through. Today's information on things above.
The earthly importance of heavenly reality. His podcast is A
stranger in the House of God. Doctor Kessler, how you doing?
(03:02):
Welcome back.
S3 (03:03):
I'm good. Chris, happy to be with you.
S1 (03:06):
Why did you want to talk about doubt? Now, this
is not the usual fare of Passion Week.
S3 (03:11):
No. And, you know, it's something that's been growing in
my mind over really several months now. I've been with
a small group of friends. We've been going through the
gospel of Mark, and I have been struck. How much? Uh,
first of all, how much doubt figures in their experience
(03:33):
with Jesus. That's how much that is part of the
lesson that they're learning. And then as Easter week came up,
I was impressed by how much doubt figures in the
resurrection story, especially in the encounters of the disciples after
Jesus rose from the dead. And for me, the epigram
(03:56):
of the whole experience is the phrase that Jesus uses
to describe the two on the road to Emmaus. You know,
as they're talking about the stories that, you know, what
they had heard about what had taken place with Jesus
and their confusion about it. And Jesus says he calls
(04:17):
them slow to believe. And it was like a light
went on. And when and I realized that in some
ways that is the epigram of the whole experience of
the disciples, that that is their story, that they are
the epitome of what it is to be slow to believe,
which is not the way I think I had previously
(04:39):
viewed them. I had previously sort of viewed them as
the heroes of faith. You know what I want to be?
And now I look at them and say, well, actually
they are, you know, that I, I are like them,
you know, because I, because I, because I myself identify
with that struggle. Uh, it was it was fundamental to
(05:00):
my conversion experience, where that was the great struggle for
me when I was considering, uh, the Christian faith and
saw myself as an outsider. And the first real spiritual
conflict I had to deal with was the the demand
for faith in Christ. And I, I remember just, you know,
(05:22):
having a conversation in prayer, uh, about that and saying to,
to God, you know, I, I just don't see that
within me. If that's going to be there, you've got
to put it there. And I just don't know how
to get to that space where I believe. And then,
of course, I you know, I think that is the persistent, uh,
(05:44):
struggle with every follower of Jesus as we're, we're walking
down this pilgrim path and Circumstance after circumstance were put
in a position where where Christ is calling us to trust,
often in what seems to be outrageous under outrageous circumstances.
(06:04):
And again, that's that's coming out of as I as
I'm walking the path with the disciples in the gospel
of Mark, these situations where Jesus expects them to have
faith and lovingly, I think, chides them, you know, his
nickname for them is you little faiths. You have little faith. Uh,
he chides them for not having him. You know, he
(06:27):
he chides them for not having faith in situations where
it would. It's completely unreasonable that he would expect them
to have faith. You know, so. So Peter's walking on
the water and he sinks and Jesus says, why did
you doubt? Well, of course he doubted. You know, I mean,
look around you. Why why did you think he wouldn't doubt. Uh,
(06:50):
that that experience to me of number one, it comes
up again and again as I'm looking at the the
disciples interacting with Jesus in their story all the way
through the resurrection and afterwards, and therefore and it resonates
with me because I see it in my own experience
with Christ. So, so, so.
S1 (07:11):
If you are listening to question, that's very good. That's
that's exactly up what we're going to talk about today.
And I just want to say to you, as you listen,
don't know what you're going through and maybe you're hearing
this live and you want to call us and converse
or you're listening to the podcast 50 years from now
and you're hearing this conversation, um, God can meet you
(07:32):
right in the middle of your doubt, in the middle
of your struggles. And the doubt may be about God,
or it might be about the circumstances that God has
allowed in your life, right? Life right now that you
can't understand why he's done that. And so you're not
doubting him necessarily. You're you're doubting yourself in this situation.
(07:52):
And how are you responding that all and the disciples
did that the apostles had that happen to them too.
So let me give our number (877) 548-3675. If at any
point you want to talk with Doctor Kessler and yours
truly about this, maybe you're struggling with that kind of
doubt and you've been beating yourself up for a long time. Um,
(08:14):
you can call about that. And that was one of
the things as I was preparing for this, John, I
was thinking that God, um, baked in. I want to
be careful here because I won't be heretical. Because God's
not the author of evil, but he baked in the
ability to doubt. You can see that going all the
way back in the garden. You know, he didn't keep
(08:36):
the evil one from whispering. Did God really say there
was the potential for doubt? Just as there is the
potential for doubt in our lives today? Talk about that.
S3 (08:46):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's the first test of the human race,
isn't it? This basic test of faith. So. And and
it is a it revolves around God's word. Because the
question that that the serpent asks Eve is, well, did
he say, did God really say? And again, that's I
(09:08):
think that's the question that we ask of ourselves often
when we're wrestling with our own doubts is, is the
question of, first of all, you know, okay, it's either, well,
God said this, but did he mean it? Or God
said this, what did he mean? Or God said this,
but this is my situation. You know, another instance of
that struck me is, is the feeding of the 5000.
(09:31):
You know, where the disciples come to Jesus? He's he's taught.
He's taught all day. It's been really busy. The disciples
come to Jesus with a very reasonable, uh, concern. They say, well,
you know, it's getting late. There's a lot of people here.
Maybe you should. Maybe you should send them away so
they can get some food. And I don't think that
(09:52):
they're just self-interested when they're doing that. They're hungry too.
They haven't. But I think it's legitimate. And then Jesus
says to them, Will you feed them? You know, it's
it's the same kind of it's the same kind of
situation that he puts them in again and again, where
he in one sense, he calls for faith in situations
(10:16):
where faith seems to be utterly unreasonable. Yes, I think
I think in the modern era, we have worked very
hard to try to establish the rationality of faith. I especially,
I think, you know, as a young Christian, I can
remember there being a lot of talk about the reasonableness
of faith and a lot of talk about evidences, you know,
(10:38):
evidence that demands a verdict, you know, and, and, uh,
and yet when I look at the way Jesus is
interacting with his disciples in the Gospels, and often in
the way that he interacts with me in my own life.
He's he is demanding a faith in circumstances where the
evidence seems to point in a completely opposite direction, so
(11:01):
that the only proof I have of of, uh, where
what what I can trust in is Jesus himself that
he's not, he's not saying, well, look at look at
this circumstance. Look at this piece of evidence. Look at these,
this piece of evidence. Now, you should trust me in
this situation. Or look at this decision you made and
look at your experience. What he simply does as he
(11:25):
does again and again in the Gospels. He puts himself
in front of me and says, you need to trust me.
S1 (11:32):
Look at.
S3 (11:33):
Me. You need to focus your attention on me.
S1 (11:36):
And the patients there, the patience of God the Father.
You see throughout the Old Testament the patience of the
son in this situation. This is going to be a
really encouraging program, I think, for somebody who has been
beating themselves up because its faith is a struggle for
you and you have all of these doubts. I want
(11:58):
you to listen to what Doctor John Kessler has to say.
There's more to come. This is Chris Fabry live on
Moody Radio online. Chris Fabry live. Have doubt. If you
(12:19):
have doubt, listen to Chris very live. We're going to
erase all your doubts. No, we're not going to do that.
But I think you will feel affirmed in the struggle
that you have to place your faith fully in what
God has done for you. So Doctor John Kessler has
come alongside us today at the radio backyard fence. If
you go to Chris Fabry Live, click through today's information.
(12:41):
You will see a new book on things above. It
just came out about a month ago. The earthly importance
of heavenly reality. You can find out more about it
again at Chris Fabry, Livorno. And we are going to
take your calls today. (877) 548-3675. Remember the old bumper sticker?
(13:01):
Got milk? Got doubt. Well, listen here today or give
us a call. What do you want to say to
the person who is in that situation right now?
S3 (13:10):
John and I want to say, I particularly want to
talk to the person who is a Christian who they believe.
It's like. It's like the man who brought his Son
to Jesus. Lord, I believe, help my unbelief that that
I want to encourage you not to be so impatient
(13:30):
with yourself, with respect to doubt, because I think that's
what happens is we are disappointed and we are impatient.
We are impatient with ourselves when it comes to doubt.
We're impatient with others when it comes to doubt. And
I'll give you in a minute, I'll give one reason
why I think we should not be so impatient. But
(13:52):
the other thing I want to say is, while I
don't want you to be impatient with yourself, with your doubts,
I don't want you to be persuaded by them either. That, uh,
you know, I'm not. What I'm not saying is. Oh,
you know, everybody doubts just, you know, just go down.
Just let go and go down into that pit. That's, uh.
That's not what I'm saying either. I was again thinking
(14:14):
about the, uh, the Easter events and and the sort
of the, the whole picture of the account that that
we have. And I was struck by something that Matthew
describes when he is, uh, talking about Jesus, sort of
his last conversation after this, as if I'm figuring the, the,
(14:37):
the dating. Right. This is after the 40 days. He's,
you know, he's raised from the dead. He spent 40
days talking to the disciples about the kingdom. And he
it says he appeared to them. In acts one three,
it says he appeared to them over a period of
40 days and spoke about the kingdom of God. So
Jesus is repeatedly appearing bodily to the disciples. He's having
(15:00):
conversations with them. We know from several of the accounts
that he he has. He eats with them, you know,
he he invites Thomas to touch him physically. He's giving these, uh,
incontrovertible proofs that he has risen from the dead. And
then in Matthew 28, it talks about his sort of
(15:21):
his last conversation as he just before he ascends, uh,
where he commissions the church, he ascends into heaven. And
then in Matthew 2817, it says, some doubted, you know,
and I you know, when I read it, I'm, I'm
like my first reaction is impatience. I'm astonished. I'm thinking
(15:41):
to myself, what is wrong with these people? Because, and
I think it's not hard for us to be impatient
with Christ's disciples, because from where we stand, they appear
to have had every advantage that that we lack. You know,
they know. They knew Jesus face to face. They spent
night and day with him for three years during his
earthly ministry. They saw him die. They they were the
(16:04):
first ones to speak with him after he had risen
from the dead. So they experienced what we wish for ourselves,
the way that John later put it. He says that,
you know, they saw, they heard and they touched him.
And that's what we think. You know, if Jesus, you know,
this Bible is okay, this Bible stuff is okay. But,
you know, if he would just appear, if he would
(16:26):
just speak to me, if he would just change this
situation for me, then I could really believe these people
had all of that. And then some doubted. And he's
like he's in front of them. He's going up into
the air. When? When they're asking, they're they're thinking to themselves,
I don't I don't know, I'm not so sure about this. So, uh,
(16:50):
so once I kind of get over my initial impatience,
I think to myself, well, yes, that is exactly what
my experience is again and again and and also when
I look at the way that Jesus spent 40 days
to again and again prove that he had risen from
(17:11):
the dead, that he was who he said he was,
that he was working out this plan, that that in
itself assumes that Jesus knows that this is a hard sell.
He is not surprised that there is a slowness to believe.
He chides us for it in a in a loving way. Um,
but I think he is more patient with it than
(17:34):
we are. So that's what I want to say. You know,
don't be so shocked. Why are you so shocked?
S1 (17:39):
Yes. And that's going to be encouraging for somebody who's
in the in that trench of doubt today. Doctor John
Kessler is with us. If you want to find out
more about him, go to the website. chris.org. I want
to make this a conversation with our listeners and where
they're going. And Myla is on the line. Myla, why
did you call today?
S4 (18:01):
Hi. Um, I was in the Bible and I was
reading today about the disciples and how they saw exactly
what he just said, and I was thinking the same thing.
Why don't they get it? They see everything. And here
I am. I'm just out here trying to believe what
I haven't physically seen or touched. Or so I've been
(18:21):
going through. Today's kind of a rough day. It's just
I went through a major surgery and it's been a
long recovery, and it's today is the day where it
feels kind of, you know, tough. Yeah. Um, yeah. So.
But doubting, like, came to my mind today. Um, why
isn't it. Why am I, you know, I'm getting better, but,
(18:44):
you know, uh, I have to find a new job, and, um,
friends have kind of, you know, after it.
S1 (18:50):
Milo, did you did your job that you had. Did
you have to leave that because of the surgery and
the time? Yes.
S4 (18:58):
Yes, it was, uh, an emergency surgery, and, um, and
I'm recovering well, but, like, I have, um, my daughter
who is financially taking care of me, um, and she
just recently lost her job. And so it's a scary time.
And I'm in my Bible every day. I go to church,
I go to Pastor Mark's, um, church. And, um, I
(19:21):
feel like today is like, okay, Lord, when's it going
to happen? You know, you know, when is the job
coming or when is that miracle coming or when is
it coming? And today is the day where I feel
a little weak.
S1 (19:35):
Ah, well, you. And look at this. You made this
connection and your weakness right here. I just want to
encourage you, Myla. There is somebody who is listening right
now who's going through something similar to you who just said, boy,
I wish I could call these guys, but I'd probably
yell at them because I don't I don't hear, you know,
and they're hearing your heart and they're encouraged because Myla's
(19:59):
right where I am. So now Jon Kessler's going to
make everything good now, right, Jon?
S3 (20:05):
Well, first of all, I want to say that I'm
so glad that you called Myla and shared your story,
because let me just tell you, and I'm not trying
to turn this back on myself. Uh, it's this is
one of those, uh, it's a correspondence here. I want
to tell you what my week was like last week.
On Wednesday, I got up in the morning feeling pretty
good until I didn't. And, uh, by, like, 10:00, o'clock. Uh,
(20:32):
we had to call an ambulance. Who took me to.
Who took me to the emergency room for a for
a for an issue, and I and I and I
like everything you're saying, like, I completely I completely identify
with it. So for the last, you know, since we've
been working through it, I'm thinking like, Lord, this is
like a stupid plan, you know? Like what? What what
(20:53):
were you what were you thinking? Like, you know, I'm.
I want to be used by you. And this, like,
I don't know, it was embarrassing. So. So then there's
a there's a there is a point to this that
doesn't really have to do with me. So. So my
wife and I, Jane, we were walking down the street,
you know, I'm trying to get my, uh, legs back
(21:14):
and and a neighbor that we don't know real well,
but but, you know, we have conversations with. She comes
out of the door, she says to me, you changed
my life because some some because somehow she. She saw
the ambulance she was trying to get, uh, information to.
(21:37):
I don't know, she somehow she looked up. She looked up,
and she started the Lord started somehow started to work
in her heart. I don't I don't even know how
he did it. I don't even know what he said.
It was like. It was from my point of view.
It's like I. I'm. I'm just a piece of the
furniture here. What I'm saying is, what I'm saying is
(21:58):
you don't know what God is doing in this situation,
but he is doing something. He's certainly doing something in
you which is important to him. The, the the person
that you are, the faith that you have, the faith
that is being strengthened through this struggle, that in itself
(22:18):
is important to him and the and the. And you
see this repeatedly again in the Gospels that the this
the Jesus allows the disciples to go into circumstances that
seem completely contrary. You know, no sane person would orchestrate
(22:40):
the situation like that, thinking, oh, this will strengthen my faith.
Let's make her sick. You know, let's let's let her
lose her job. That'll really make her feel, uh, good
about her relationship with God. You know? So, uh, um,
so I think this, again, is a case where, number
(23:01):
one in that place where you're feeling questioning you, I
think you need to be patient enough with yourself to,
first of all, express that to God as honestly as
you can. He's big enough to take it. I think
in the process, you need to be patient enough with
God to know that, and your own history will probably
(23:26):
tell you this if your own history doesn't, you can
look through the scriptures to see that this is the
story again and again, that there's something that he is
working out that is not apparent to you, and you
really won't be able to see it until all the
pieces are in place. And and in the process, it
(23:47):
may be very uncomfortable. That is, uh, you know, I mean,
it's part of the plan I'm not really excited about,
but but I have seen it repeatedly. I've seen it
repeatedly that that God allows his, his, uh, his children
to be put in circumstances that are not the ones
(24:08):
they would choose for themselves that are not as comfortable
as they would like. And then he shows up in
completely unexpected ways to do things that they would not anticipate.
And what? So, uh, I don't like that on and
on about it.
S1 (24:26):
I like that note. And I you mentioned your daughter
and you know, you you you two are commiserating. She
doesn't have the same physical difficulty, but you both have
lost this job. So you're both in that same boat.
You're both trying to trust, you know, to trust. Well,
and whatever that means on the other side of this.
So my guess is you two are getting a little
(24:47):
bit closer than maybe you even wanted to. Is that right?
S4 (24:51):
Well, we got pretty close when I had to move
in with her to, um. She helped me through the recovery,
the initial recovery. So we're pretty close anyways. But, um. Yeah. Yeah,
we're we're hanging on to Jesus and waiting for, like,
I wait in expectancy because I'm a I'm a person
who firmly believes something's going to happen. But those days
(25:13):
where it's like, okay, is it today because I'm exhausted?
S5 (25:17):
Yes. Yeah, that's where you are right there. And we
also take a quick break here.
S1 (25:22):
John, I want you to respond to her when we
come back from a quick break. But Myla, they're going
to be people around the country who are praying for
you and who are going to be lifting you up
in this physical situation, as well as the job situation
for you and your daughter. You are not alone in that,
as you probably know. So I want you to hang on.
We have a little bit more to talk about and
(25:43):
more calls to take. (877) 548-3675. This is Chris Fabry live
on Moody Radio. Talking about doubt today with our correspondent
(26:05):
to doubt, Doctor John Kessler. The people at Care Net
know that there are many people who doubt God's forgiveness
for something that they've done in the past, something like abortion.
April is Abortion Recovery Awareness Month, and if that is
in your rear view and if the enemy is whispering
to you. God can't forgive that, don't you? Don't you listen?
(26:27):
Don't believe it. God wants you to be forgiven. He
wants you to live fully and freely from the heart
without condemnation. There's a free resource from Carenet that you
can download. If you click the Green Connect link at Livorno,
you can download that. If you or somebody you know
is carrying this burden of guilt and shame and grief,
(26:49):
there's an awful lot of hope. Click the Green Connect
link at Chris Fabbri Livorno and you can download your
copy of Forgiven and Set Free. Again, just go to
Chris Fabbri Livorno. Doctor Jon Kessler is joining us. I'm
so glad that Myla called Jon and described this situation
(27:10):
that she is in. You were going to say one
more thing to her. Go ahead.
S3 (27:14):
Yeah, just that I you know, I think that as
she's describing her experience, I'm reminded again of how many
of the faith instances the you know, the faith trials
that you find not just in the New Testament, but
all through Scripture, are circumstances that are that humble us.
(27:37):
You know, we're we're debilitated in some way or something
is taken from us or something happens to us that
makes us feel weak and vulnerable, and we're put in
a position of complete dependency, and we wrestle with that.
And it it does remind me, um, of how much
(27:58):
we tend to shift the focus when it comes to faith.
We shift the focus away from the object of our faith, Christ,
to ourselves. And I think this is a false perception
that we have of faith, that we see it as
some kind of inner strength, uh, that we need to
find in ourselves, and that when we're put in a
(28:19):
position of weakness. Uh, what happens is there's this inversion
that takes place, and we are thrust upon God, and
we realize that he is our only support. And that's
that is the essence of faith. Faith isn't this strong
energy that I have that you know that I know
(28:40):
I can do this. Uh, that might be positive thinking.
Faith is a sense of weakness. Faith is a sense
that if God doesn't do this for me, it doesn't
get done.
S5 (28:54):
So total dependence.
S1 (28:56):
I like that. I like that coming into and you
see that in the disciples, and then you read the
book of acts and you see them growing in there.
They're still dependent, but then they are acting on that dependence. So, Mila,
thank you for calling. I want you to listen to
what Kristen has to say in Michigan. Kristen, why did
you call today?
S6 (29:17):
I called because I was listening to her story and
my heart felt it. A year and a half ago
and an eight month period, I lost three people, my
immediate family that were all working and healthy my my
father and then my husband, and then my mother and
(29:38):
I lost my job in the mix because I just,
I couldn't be at work. I had three celebration of
life to prepare and trying to hold myself together. And
I just wanted to let her know. And I and
I believe from hearing her that she knows this already,
but I want to encourage her, um, to know that girl.
God's got you and he loves you and he adores you.
(30:03):
And like the other gentleman or somebody said, you got
a history with God, his story in your life where
he's brought you through so many things in your lifetime,
where you can look back and you can be reminded
of his goodness, reminded of his faithfulness. He is a
good father, and even though you can't see it, my
(30:24):
friend or whoever else is listening. He is in control
and he has got your best interest. And I'll tell you,
during the time when my husband was incubated, I was
crying out to the Lord and I always came back.
I was in the book of John, and I always
came back. And I laid my heart before the Lord
what my desire was. I wanted my husband to be
(30:46):
with me, but I couldn't help but remember Jesus and saying,
not my will, not my will.
S7 (30:56):
But your will. Because what is your job or your house,
or losing somebody? God's love is perfect and he's he
does not wish to harm us or hurt us. He
is making us complete.
S6 (31:15):
Lacking.
S7 (31:16):
Nothing. And so I just want to encourage her and
others that the Lord is with us and we don't
understand everything. We don't. We can't. We are human. We
are fragile. He is so good and he will reveal it.
And if you've been walking with the Lord, you already
(31:38):
know how good he is. And you can just stand
on that. Stand on his faithfulness in your life.
S5 (31:46):
You know what, Kristen?
S1 (31:47):
There's something going on here today. And I. John, I
think you feel it too. So, Myla, I want to
bring you back what you've just heard from Kristen. What's
going on in your heart as you listen to that?
S4 (31:59):
Just it is God's will. And every day I tell him,
you can break me. You can take everything. Just build
me up, build me up. And today was just that
day where I thought like, okay, is it, are you
building yet? So I thank you, Kristen, for like giving
me those words of encouragement. I know things don't always
go our way, and I am a strong Christian and
(32:20):
I do want to be a have a testimony to
show that maybe even the non-believers that watch this, just
like Christian just said. She said she just went through
all of that and now she's building me up. So
I want to be that person for someone else eventually.
S1 (32:36):
Well, you know, how you become a strong Christian, though,
is you allow yourself to be weak, you know? And
that's what you did. You just you just said, here's
where I am. This is where I'm struggling. So that's
not that's not strength, it's weakness. But in real sense,
it's his strength that allowed you to get through. So
hang on. I want Deb to get your information. Kristin.
(32:56):
God bless you. Thank you. And this. John, this is
exactly what the body is supposed to do for we're
supposed to do for each other, right?
S3 (33:04):
Yeah. I think that's another element when when we're talking
about the struggle that being slow to believe in the
struggle we have with faith that God often will bring
people by to bear witness and who will speak from experience.
You know, in one sense, what they're saying is evidential.
They're talking about how God has dealt with them. They'll
(33:26):
point us to our own history. Where where you see
this in the the Psalms where the psalmist talks to
himself this way, he reminds himself of God's faithfulness in
the past and ultimately, as Jesus did for the two
on the road to Emmaus, he points them to the
testimony of his word of God's Word. That that builds
us up. I will, I will tell you, though, that
(33:48):
sometimes when that person comes alongside me and and they're
reminding me of all these things, I don't always appreciate it.
You know, and actually, in my life, you know, it's
it's my loving, loving wife, Jane, who will remind me
of the truth of God's word, you know, and I'd
rather be grumpy about it, you know, and she comes
with hope, and you know that sometimes the, um, the
(34:12):
affirmation I it takes me a while to accept it.
You know, I have to I have to struggle with
it because I want to be angry. I want to
be irritated with God about it for a while.
S1 (34:23):
And God is. And that's why I think it's, you know,
do you see Jesus? I see God the Father so
patient with us.
S3 (34:29):
Yes. Yeah.
S1 (34:30):
Um, as Kristen was talking, I was thinking about how
often I feel this way. One of my kids the
other night said, uh, grown kids. Have you guys watched
the Who's on first? You know, the Abbott and Costello thing. And, uh,
and every time when they say, you know who's on,
know who's not on second. He is on first. I
don't know, third base. It always comes back to third base.
(34:53):
You know, everything comes back to third base. And I
find in my Christian life that everything comes back to
the third base of Gethsemane. That no matter what you're
dealing with, you got to get you have to get
to the point. God is dragging us kicking and screaming
to the point of not my will, but yours be done.
S3 (35:12):
I and I think you have to be. I think
there's a balance here that one of the things that
I was reflecting on as Christian was talking is I'm
always both in Scripture and in my own experience of
my friends that I have watched. I'm always surprised at
the at the extremity that God will allow in people's
(35:35):
lives when he is doing this faith work in them.
And it's shocking to me in a way, you know,
that he will allow such extreme hardship to take place. And,
and sometimes, uh, you know, pile up, you know, uh,
event upon event and disappointment upon disappointment and grief upon grief.
(35:57):
So that you get to the point and you say, God,
you know, I, I think, I think somebody needs to
step in here and help you with this. Uh, and
then and then I think you point exactly to where
you have to go is to. And then you look at,
you look at Gethsemane. And Gethsemane is a reminder that
(36:19):
God is not arbitrary about these things, that he is, uh,
he is working out this plan that is grounded in love,
whose aim is redemption. But I the the balance, I think,
is that you can get so caught up in the
sorrow of it. I think this is the actually this
(36:41):
is the season we're in. You can get caught up
in the sorrow so that you're so you're dwelling so
much on the suffering that that's all you see, uh,
in the Christian life, that the Christian you basically you
feel like if I'm not suffering, then nothing good is happening.
I don't think that's the gospel. The gospel message works
(37:01):
toward resurrection and redemption and hope. So that all of
this that we experience now, even at its greatest extremity.
That is not the end of the story. Not at
the end of the story. Yet at the end of
the story is a message of hope, of life and
of power. That's what this is tending toward, so that
(37:24):
I don't necessarily think you have to be careful. You
see this in the history of the church, that it
sometimes it gets caught up in the I don't know
how to describe it. You know, the dark side of
the gospel story, the suffering, the pain. And then it
wants to stay there because it's bound up. Sometimes I
think in a, in a false theology of earning that
(37:45):
if I'm not suffering, it's not doing me any good.
So God becomes this distorted, you know, kind of figure
who he wants to dangle us over the fire and say,
you know, hot enough for you. Now you just wait. Uh,
and I think that's a dysfunctional view of God. That
(38:06):
and we can. The more, the more we have hardship.
Sometimes I think you can get drawn down into that,
and you have to look through that to see the hope. Ultimately,
it's the hope of heaven. It's the hope of eternal life.
And that's what this is not just that, but life
beyond that which of which the scriptures haven't even begun
(38:31):
to tell us what happens after that, you know.
S1 (38:34):
So and you've written about that in the new book
that we have linked, if you go to Chris Fabry
live on things above the earthly importance of heavenly reality.
It's our featured resource today by Doctor John Kessler. Just
go to Chris Fabry lives. There is one other person
in the scriptures in the Gospels who doubted, and it
(38:55):
is always bugged me. And I want Doctor Kessler to
talk about that doubt straight ahead on Moody Radio. I
am so glad you made the connection with us here today.
(39:16):
Doctor John Kessler has joined us at the back fence
on things. Above is his latest book. You can find
out more about it at the website. Click through today's
information right there. Chris Fabry lives. But when he talked
about doubt, then I started going through the scriptures and uh,
pre resurrection, post resurrection, looking at Passion Week. The other
(39:36):
person though that came to mind, John is named John
the Baptist. Now this is the same John the Baptist
who in utero leapt when he heard Mary's voice with
Jesus in utero. This is the same John who said,
When Jesus comes, Behold the Lamb of God, who takes
away the sin of the world. So if there's anybody
on the planet who knows who Jesus is and this
(40:00):
plan that is unfolding, it is John the Baptist. And
then in Luke seven, John's disciples told him John summoned
two of his disciples and sent them to the Lord, asking,
are you the one who is to come? Or should
we look for someone else? So even there you can
see John the Baptist with all that was going on
(40:23):
with him, you know, imprisoned. And that story didn't end
very well, quote unquote, as far as from an earthly perspective. Uh,
John was dealing with his own struggles, wasn't he?
S3 (40:35):
Yeah. And I love this example. I think it's the
perfect example, because what's happening in John's struggle with with
his own faith is, is is what happens to us
so often. It's all about expectation. The issue with John.
John knew who Jesus was. He believed that Jesus was
(40:58):
who he said he was, but he also was predisposed
in what he expected Jesus to do. How Jesus was
going to carry out this plan, that is. I think
that's true for all of us. And when I find myself, uh,
to be slow of faith and beginning to question what
God is all about, it is often the result of
(41:19):
this expectation I had of the way things were supposed
to go. This is how the story was supposed to go.
It is why the disciples struggled so much with the
resurrection of Christ, because they were expecting a different storyline. They, they, they,
they had in their mind how this whole thing was
going to come out. It did not end in the cross,
(41:42):
and therefore the cross was completely unexpected. Even though Jesus
told them about it, they were they had blinders on.
They could have sort of filtered that out as they
were listening. So it's only after the fact. And when
you notice when Jesus answers John's disciples. He doesn't give
(42:03):
any new information. He doesn't. He doesn't say to John, oh,
here's some secret knowledge. You know, that will really buoy
you up. He tells John what John already knows. He
tells John what John has already heard. That is, in
a sense, what Jesus expects John to respond to is testimony.
(42:26):
It's it's witness. It's the witness of Christ. We are
on the same ground.
S1 (42:31):
It's what we.
S3 (42:32):
Do. That's right. We we are what we believe is
not the first hand experience of seeing the risen Christ.
Of touching him. Of hearing him, of seeing his miracles.
We believe on the basis of testimony. And when you
think of the other great doubter in the Gospels, which
is Thomas. That's the same place that Jesus goes with Thomas.
(42:56):
He he doesn't he's very he's very kind, I think,
very gentle with Thomas and says here, you know, here
are the wounds. Touch them. Because Thomas said, I won't
believe until I put my fingers in the wounds. But
then Jesus pronounces a blessing on everyone else who believes
without having seen, who believes, who believe without having heard,
(43:18):
who believe on the basis of the testimony of those
who have seen and heard and touched. That's us. That's
where we stand today.
S1 (43:28):
And it's where Wesley is today to Wesley. Why did
you call?
S8 (43:33):
Well, uh, I am, uh, I find myself in a
position of being a caregiver for my wife, uh, who?
We're both strong believers and followers of the ways of
Jesus Christ and, uh, members of the body of Christ and, uh,
in the Bible daily and in prayer daily. And she's
(43:55):
run into a health situation where she's in, a daily
pain that, uh, almost every day leads to tears and
is seeking medical attention. But, uh, it's a situation where
I find myself as a being a caregiver for her. And, uh,
I get, uh, I get frustrated because of, um, uh,
(44:18):
it just seems like, uh, the process is so slow
to try to get her, uh, some healing and even
just some pain relief, uh, and, uh, doubt creeps in and, uh,
even to the point of some anger on my part that, uh,
that that's a distant, uh, a distant thing that only, uh,
(44:38):
it's never it never manifests itself toward her or anything
like that, but just in the situation and anger with
maybe even with, um, well, definitely with the situation, I
hesitate to say with God, but sometimes even angry about it.
So angry with the situation that I expressed my anger
to God. I hope that's the way it does.
S9 (45:00):
It's so frustrating.
S1 (45:01):
Because you love her and you want to help. I
get where you are. John. I hear the music. So
we got a minute. What do you say?
S3 (45:08):
Well, I think, Wesley, you need to keep doing what
you're doing, which is trusting God, caring for your wife
the best that you can and waiting on him. And
as these feelings come up, don't be afraid to openly
express them to the God who loves you and loves
your wife more than you love yourselves.
S1 (45:29):
And I would say to you, Wesley, this this thrusts
you in this place of dependence that John was talking
about a minute ago. And that is you're fully dependent
on him. And so what do you do with that?
You go to him, but you also say, I need help.
And so you bring other people around you who can
give that help, who can, you know, the medical professionals
(45:52):
and those asking questions. Boy, I don't understand this. That's
not weakness. That's really helping her. And I want to
commend you for for going through this valley with her.
I could tell your heart is turned toward her. And
God bless you, friend. We'll be praying for you. And
I'll ask our listeners around the country to pray for
(46:12):
Wesley in this situation with his wife even today, and
with those who are looking at job situations and health situations. Oh,
there's a lot of pain and a lot of doubt.
But we we serve a strong Savior who is able
to join us there. A patient Savior. John Kessler, thanks
(46:33):
for suggesting this topic. Come back and see us real soon, okay?
S3 (46:36):
I will. Chris. Thank you.
S1 (46:38):
If you go to Chris fabry.org, you'll see John's new
book on things above. Chris Fabry lives production of Moody Radio,
a ministry of Moody Bible Institute.
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