June 11, 2025 • 46 mins
We live in a post-modern, post-religion, post-everything society. Our era is marked by a disdain for truth, let alone the truth of God’s Word. Pastor and author Dr. Mike Glenn wants to help pastors and leaders who want to reach the world with the truth of the Gospel. How do you do that when we live in a post-truth world? Hear the encouragement on Chris Fabry Live.
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Preaching in a Post-Truth World: Recentering the Pulpit in a Chaotic World
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:05):
He is one of my favorite people on the planet.
He is real. He's honest. He's had a lot of
life experience. He has a heart for pastors because he's
been one since Methuselah was in his youth group. The
first conversation I had with him was about his mother
and I. We laughed so hard and cried because I
related so much with the struggle that he felt. That
(00:27):
book was coffee with mom today at the radio backyard
Fence the return of doctor Mike Glenn. He's stopping by
the back fence today to talk about pastors and truth.
How to convey the truth of God's Word in a
post-truth world. And I told him before the program, the
only quibble I have with him is the title, because
I don't think this is just for pastors. It's for anyone.
(00:48):
It's for you and me who want to present biblical
truth to a friend or family member who says, I
don't know about that. Or maybe you feel that way
about truth today. Some encouragements. Coming up straight ahead on
Chris Bay, relive the program from the heart to the
heart for the heart. First, a thank you to our team.
Ryan McConaughey is doing all things technical. Trish is our producer.
(01:09):
Anthony will be answering your calls today. Thank you to
our new back fence partners. There has been a flurry
of people in the last couple of days who have said, hey,
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know why. I mean, I know why they want to,
but I don't know why. It's just the last couple
of days. But it's so encouraging to see because your
gifts keep these conversations coming, not only for you and
(01:31):
for those that you you care about, but for those
you don't even know who need the encouragement that they
are going to hear today. Real life discussions. So if
you want to be a partner with us and give
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(01:53):
find out how to support us, become a back fence partner,
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appreciated here in June, our fiscal year end. Chris. Fabbri. Fabbri. Chris. Fabbri. Org.
Or if you'd rather call 866958669532279. Thanks. For those of
(02:14):
you who are new back fence partners or thinking about it.
Doctor Mike Glenn is president of the Engaged Church Network,
former senior pastor of Brentwood Baptist Church in Brentwood, Tennessee.
Under his leadership, the church grew to eight campuses and
a membership of more than 10,000. He's written four books.
I mentioned coffee with Mom in Real Time is another.
(02:37):
We talked about the gospel of Yes, and today we're
going to talk about preaching in a post-truth world. Recentering
the pulpit in a chaotic world. Married to Jeannie. How
many years you two been married?
S2 (02:49):
Mike just celebrated 45.
S1 (02:52):
45 years. Isn't that great? How's she put up with
you all this time?
S2 (02:56):
Well, we just had to renegotiate for 46. So that
was where I was.
S1 (03:01):
Is it a year by year contract that you go through?
S2 (03:03):
It's a year by year contract now. Yeah. Okay. You
know somebody you know you go ahead. You know, you first.
Your first uh, uh, entry is you dinner and roses. No, 45.
You have to you have to drop some change. Yeah.
So she's got big expectations for the 45th wedding, so.
S3 (03:23):
I like that.
S2 (03:24):
But I'm really blessed.
S3 (03:25):
So I said that.
S1 (03:26):
You're writing to pastors here in this new book. You're
concerned about the person in the pew. This is for
both audiences, isn't it?
S2 (03:33):
Yes. Yeah. Just the we live in a culture. And
my first point was to help pastors understand that when
we stand in the pulpit and read from God's Word
to us, it is God's eternal truth, and that's already
settled in our mind and heart. Uh, and when we
(03:54):
proclaim this is the truth of God. We're saying it
from 100% totally convinced. Congregation is hearing it. Well, maybe
I've had 20 or 30 truth claims. I'm not sure
about truth at all. And so I'm measuring what you
bring to me from Scripture against all the other truth
(04:15):
claims that I've heard during the week. And if you're
not aware of that gap, then it's going to affect
your preaching.
S3 (04:22):
Yes.
S1 (04:23):
Which is the use that metaphor of minding the gap
when they say in England, when you're stepping on the train. Right.
S2 (04:31):
Right. Mhm. Yeah. If you, if you don't mind, if
you're not aware of it then it's going to trip
your preaching up. It's not a bad thing. It just is.
And you have to pay attention to it.
S3 (04:42):
Yes.
S1 (04:43):
And it's the same way with the relationships we have.
Because you know as well as I do, there are
a lot of people who are have been in church
and are walking away and, and the pandemic did a
number on that talk about that.
S2 (04:55):
Oh, gosh. Yeah. Uh. Uh. I'm having a train wreck
in my head. Trying to give you all all the answers. Uh,
what we found out. Church attendance was about 25% of
the people walked away, and they haven't come back. Uh,
about 50% are now hybrid in that they tell us
(05:16):
they go to church all the time, but what they
mean is we go once a month and we watch
on streaming. Uh, the other three Sundays of the month. Uh,
so it's really affected, uh, the, the, uh, the size
of the crowd, the energy of the crowd and that, uh,
(05:38):
what pastors went through of having members turn on them
as we tried to work through this, um, a lot
of pastors left the ministry during that time, or others said,
I'm going to get my church through this and I'm
going to retire. And one of the challenges right now
is that the church in North America faces a wave
of retirements. And and we don't have the pipeline to
(06:00):
backfill them right now.
S1 (06:02):
And is that why you're so involved with the engaged
church network that has become your new thing after stepping away, right.
S2 (06:11):
Yeah, I stepped away from full time leadership of the
church to start working with churches, mostly in Middle Tennessee,
of identifying, developing, training and then mentoring, coaching new pastors.
Because and I want to really make this clear, Chris,
I have never been more excited about the gospel than
(06:32):
I am, right? Opportunities that we have in North America,
especially because all of the questions that are being asked
are Jesus questions. Questions of identity. Questions of purpose. Questions
of meaning. Questions of value. They're all Jesus questions. And
this is a great opportunity for the church to be
(06:54):
confident and, um, uh, and persistent in our evangelistic efforts.
S3 (07:00):
Yes.
S1 (07:01):
And and you make the point that when I was
watching a Billy Graham, it was Paul Harvey interviewed Billy
Graham years and years ago. It's just fascinating. And what
the point that you make is the world that Billy
Graham preached in basically agreed with him that the Bible
was the word of God. There was some differences of
(07:22):
opinion about that, but pretty much. And you say this book,
preaching in a Post-truth world, is about finding a place
to begin. Like missionaries of past generations, we find ourselves
walking into a different country with a different language and culture.
What worked back home in another place, in another time
won't work here and now. Where do we begin? Where
(07:43):
do we start? Those are the questions that you're answering, right?
S2 (07:47):
Right. Uh, when I started, uh, you know, a bunch
of years ago, uh, we all went to the Billy
Graham School of Evangelism, where you would begin the conversation
with the Bible says, and everybody would agree with you,
at least, that the Bible was a book of authority.
And everybody recognized that. Now, if you say the Bible says,
(08:10):
they will shrug and say, that's nice, but why should
I trust Bible among all the other religious books of
the world? Why should I trust the Bible over, uh,
you know, the false argument between Bible and science? Why
should I trust what the Bible says rather than what
this or that person says? And so you almost have
(08:32):
to be ready to make a philosophical argument before you
make the theological argument.
S3 (08:36):
Yes. And you do that really well.
S1 (08:39):
Uh, Mike lands with us today preaching in a post-truth world.
There was a situation that you had when you and
your wife, uh, went to a party. You met some
new people. They asked you what you did. I want
you to tell that story. When we come back from
a break. Preaching in a post-truth world is our featured resource.
Recentering the pulpit in a chaotic world. But again, it's
(09:01):
not just for pastors. I think that's the main audience,
but it's for everybody else in the pew as well.
I think it'll be really helpful as you're hearing today.
Just go to the website. Chris Fabry lives more with Mike.
Straight ahead. Talking with doctor Mike Glenn today, who is
(09:27):
president of the Engaged Church Network, former senior pastor of
Brentwood Baptist Church in Brentwood, Tennessee. Preaching in a post-truth
world is going to encourage your pastor, but I think
it'll encourage you as well. The subtitle is Recentering The
Pulpit in a Chaotic World. You can see it at
Chris Livorno. Chris Fabbri. Livorno. I love some of the
(09:52):
things that you say in here, Mike. Ah, just stop
me in my tracks. And one of them was toward
the end of the book, and I think this is
going to be something that somebody who's listening needs to hear.
How different would our lives be if we lived every moment,
not having to prove anything to anybody? We don't have
to earn anyone's love. We're fully loved already. We don't
(10:15):
have to prove our value. We're valued already. We don't
have to look for meaning in our lives because we
know our purpose. We don't have to be afraid of
what's coming next. Our God has already walked millions through
the valley of death. He can get us through as well.
The hardest thing about learning how to swim is to
learn to float. The most difficult thing to teach a
(10:37):
child as they're learning how to swim is how to
relax and trust the water. Once the child learns how
to float, it's easy to add the strokes and the kicks.
What if each one of us could learn how to
float in our lives? What if we could just relax
and trust Jesus to hold us up the way the
(10:58):
water holds up a swimmer? I read that, Mike, and
I don't know who you're writing to, but I needed
to hear that. When I read it, it was so true.
S2 (11:10):
Yeah, yeah. You know, it takes you three days to
teach a kid how to float, and then they learn
to swim very, very quickly after that.
S1 (11:20):
Yeah. You write the challenge these days isn't people believing
the wrong things, but that people don't believe anything at all.
What do you mean by that?
S2 (11:31):
Um, we have we have been so disappointed on so
many levels in our lives that we we don't listen
to any of the experts anymore. We don't trust any
of our institutions. Machines. And so we don't make any
big faith commitments of any kind. Uh, we become very
casual about any commitment. And that once that commitment no
(11:53):
longer feels good or it no longer works for us,
then we will abandon that commitment and we will move
on to something else. Uh, we will abandon a long
time relationship. We will abandon, uh, a marriage. We will abandon, uh,
a job or a career because it no longer feels good.
(12:14):
But we don't make that commitment anymore because we no
longer believe in what we're doing.
S1 (12:21):
And that works itself out in the church. Uh, tell
that story about the couple that you met, and they
found out you were a pastor.
S2 (12:29):
Oh, yeah. That's always a fun part of any dinner
meeting when people find out you're a pastor. Uh, because
it usually freaks their behavior. Uh, but this this couple
was very, very polite, and, hey, what do you do?
And stuff? And, you know, I told them. And how
did you end up doing that? So I ended up
telling them about my calling and, uh, and my life
(12:49):
as a pastor. And then the wife just very coolly
said to me, I'm glad you found your truth. And
I didn't know what to do with that. Uh, because
for me, truth had always been, uh, something outside of me,
an objective truth, something that was stated and that you could, uh,
(13:10):
believe in or build your life on. But it wasn't
something that was personal that I could construct, uh, and, uh,
but she just coolly told me, I'm glad you found yours,
but that's not mine, and it's not ours.
S1 (13:25):
How did you respond to that, then?
S2 (13:29):
Um, I don't think I did as well as I
thought I could have, but, uh, you know, I think
what happened was we went into discussions about what? What
truth she believed and what and what her truth was
was a a a cut and paste of about nine
different theologies, um, which are, which are totally incoherent once
(13:56):
you press them. Right. Uh, you know, you always see
that coexist bumper sticker right on the back, and you
want to tell them, obviously you don't know anything about
what you've got on your bumper, because none of these
people would agree that they could coexist, um, because of
what the different truth claims that they make. Right?
S1 (14:20):
Right. And so then you have to you have to
figure out then, you know, how do we then live
as Francis Schaeffer said? Um, well.
S2 (14:29):
That's part of it. Part of it is how you live.
The other part of it is, and, Chris, this is
the fascinating thing. People love to talk about Jesus. They
are intrigued by this person of of who Jesus is
and what he taught. And can we actually do what
he said we could do? Uh, so while sometimes we're
(14:51):
being told, hey, you know, don't bring up Jesus. Jesus
is one of the things that the world wants to
talk about. Uh, because here was a human being and,
you know, and, and, uh, seminary, they talk about theology
from below and theology from above, Christology from above, and
Christology from below. That you can start with the divine Jesus,
(15:12):
the Son of God, who came into the world. Or
you can start with the person of Jesus who reveals
himself to be God, the God-Man. Uh, but if you
can start with this story of Jesus, uh, this fisherman
from Galilee, I mean, this carpenter from Galilee who taught
a bunch of fishermen about what life means. That's where
(15:33):
your conversation begins now.
S1 (15:36):
Because that's what you're trying to get into the heart
of the pastor is to enter into the life where
the people in the pew are living, rather than telling
them what you know. Right?
S2 (15:48):
Right. Right, right. It's, you know, it's almost telling the
story of Jesus to bring them into that story the
same way that Peter and John and the others were
brought in. Yes.
S1 (16:01):
What I find that happens with the. When, you know,
I'm glad you found your truth. It's not mine. Um,
I think people are looking for what works. And if
it works for them, and it probably she would have
said that the person you were talking with said, you know,
my truth works for me. At least it has up
until now. And I think that's one of the reasons
(16:21):
why you say 25% have kind of left the church
after the pandemic. Um, it was irrelevant to the what
they were hearing in church was irrelevant. It wasn't working
for them anymore. And so they.
S2 (16:35):
Went.
S1 (16:36):
Yeah.
S2 (16:37):
Exactly.
S1 (16:37):
Do you agree with that?
S2 (16:39):
Exactly right. Um, I am trying to, um, you know,
it's the old joke about how many angels can dance
on the head of a pin. Um, that that's what
preachers wanted to talk about. But this guy is trying
to make it to Thursday. Yeah, I'm trying to be
a father, and I'm trying to hold my marriage together.
And I'm trying to figure out what my boss wants
(17:00):
at work. Um. Uh, and the 15 year old's trying
to figure out who they are, and, uh, and there's this.
There's this work for me. They've got friends making all
kinds of decisions. You got wives going, you know. Should
I work full time? Should I stay at home full time? And.
And no matter what decision they make, somebody mad at them? Right. Uh,
(17:24):
so that's who's out there and that's, you know, that's
who's trying to make a living. And so teaching now
has to be very, very practical. Uh, and this is
what Jesus taught us about real life, and this is
why he taught us. And this is why it works
us in the real life, living as he showed us.
S1 (17:47):
But see, Mike, what most people believe or how they
will define works, is God acts the way I want
him to. I do x and y and Z that
I think he's told me to do, and then he
responds and he does the same for me. What I
think he ought to do. And when.
S2 (18:07):
The.
S1 (18:08):
And the gap is, he doesn't. He didn't sign up
for that.
S2 (18:13):
No, that's a contract party. The first part agrees to this,
and part of the second part agrees to that. He
doesn't come to us with a contract. He comes with
a covenant. And the covenant says, because of who I am,
I'm always going to do what's best for you because
I love you so much. I'm always going to do
what's best for you, even when that means I tell
(18:35):
you no. And I've lived long enough. It's probably. You
have to thank God for unanswered prayers. Uh, to be
in a situation where that's what I said I wanted.
And now, thank God he didn't give it to me. Yes.
S1 (18:51):
So what do you say to the pastor and you
say in the book, the end of judges ever did
what everyone did, what was right in their own eyes?
That's what we're living in today. Everybody is living their
own truth. So how does a pastor make a difference?
Or anybody, any Christian, make a difference in somebody else's life?
When we're up against this.
S2 (19:12):
Uh, one, we we readjust our time schedule for evangelism. Uh,
I was and was trained with, you know, you went
through the gospel presentation at the end of that gospel presentation,
the person made a decision, uh, and now it may
be several months of conversation before any decision is made.
(19:37):
It may be a year or two before any decision
is made. And the reason is we go back to
the thing we talked about earlier, about the lack of trust. And, um,
so does the person trust you and have you proven
to be trustworthy, uh, in their life? Okay. Okay. I
(19:59):
found out I could trust Mike. Uh, Mike will show
up when I need him to show up. He'll keep
his promises to me, that kind of stuff. Now I'm
going to give him permission to speak into my life
at a different level. And depending on the kind of
hurt that that person has had, then that determines how
long it will take.
S1 (20:19):
So you can't rush that. You don't know this, but
we had, uh, Greg Kokal on on Monday, and he
was talking about this very thing and what he said
that most people have been taught to be harvesters. Visitors.
And if you don't seal the deal, you know, then
you're you're a failure. And he said, exactly. I am
a gardener. I am tilling the soil. I'm planting seeds.
(20:41):
I'm getting rocks in people's shoes with questions and and
allowing them to process this and think through it. That's
a different way to to see it, isn't it?
S2 (20:51):
Yes. And, you know, that's the reason Jesus talks so
much about agriculture. You know, you work the field, you wait,
you plant the seed, you wait, you water the field,
you wait. Uh, so a lot of a lot of
that is exactly right. Is is saying just what I
need to say in this moment and then trust the
spirit to work with it, but not feeling the need
(21:14):
to to to push it to an immature or a
predetermined outcome.
S1 (21:19):
Okay. So adjusting the time schedule is one thing to do.
Give me another one.
S2 (21:26):
Uh, tell stories, uh, Tell stories of, uh, tell the
parables of Jesus. Tell tell the stories about Jesus. Do
not assume that people have heard the stories of Jesus.
They haven't, uh, they may have been in church, whatever,
(21:46):
but they do not know the stories of of Jesus, uh,
the way that you would assume they do. So don't
be afraid just to just lay out as simple as
as you, as you would teach any five year old, uh,
the story of Jesus. And then let the story work.
Tell your story. Here's what I learned. Here's where I
(22:08):
was when I got angry, and I remembered the Lord
said I didn't have the right to be angry, that
I had to forgive my brother and restore that relationship.
I didn't believe it either. But here's what I did,
and here's how it worked out for me. Now I
know why he tells me that.
S1 (22:24):
So you you bring it. You bring it from your
own life. Or a story. Stories in the news, whatever
you allow that to sift into so that the the listener,
the person who's watching you, listening and viewing this participates. Right.
S2 (22:42):
Right. Right. Mhm. Same thing Jesus did. Jesus told stories.
And you could pick who you were in the story.
You could, you know the story of the prodigal son
the first time you hear it. Most likely you're the prodigal.
If you live long enough, then you become the older brother. Mm.
And if you live long enough as I have now,
(23:03):
I'm the father.
S1 (23:06):
Yeah. I said in the introduction that Methuselah was in
your youth group. That's not true, is it? Yeah. Uh,
you know, you mentioned the trust thing a minute ago,
and that's where some people will get hung up. And
it is a pastor who ran away, you know, ran
away from the faith or ran off with somebody else or,
(23:28):
you know, had some kind of moral failing. Even in
the last week, we've heard of a Christian musician who
has now confessed to. Yeah, I've been living a double life.
And that that can shake people who have listened to
the songs or listened to the sermons and asked the question, well,
is anything that I believe real? Because it wasn't real.
(23:50):
It seems like it wasn't real to them. What do
you say about that?
S2 (23:54):
Oh, gosh. Um, yeah. The recent the recent events are
something that we see way, way too often. And a
lot of times it's because, uh, folks don't understand that the, the,
the worship music industry, uh, most of the time, what
happens is you have a young person come to the
(24:15):
Nashville area. They want they want to write songs, they
want to sing, they want to lead worship. Um, they
get a contract and and they do the first album
that is out of, um, uh, out of all the
songs they've written since they were 12 years old. Uh,
and then the record company says, okay, that's a great
(24:37):
that's a great first album. Now we need now we
need 15 more new songs, and we need them by
next week. And now it's a job. And now to
sell that album, because the way the music industry gets
paid now is with concerts. You're going to be on
the road 200 nights a year. Now you think about that.
(24:57):
You get on a bus and you're away from home.
You're away from your wife, you're away from your children,
you're away from all your friends who know you well
for 200 nights a year. Uh, and, uh, and that
is not a good place to be successful. We isolate
these people. Uh, they don't have friends around them. The
friends they have around them are making money off of them.
(25:19):
So they don't tell them? No. Um, the friends they
have are people who. Who need that friendship. So they
don't they don't hold them accountable. And if you're outside
of an accountability group, it's really hard to be successful.
S1 (25:34):
Okay. I want to come back and talk more with
you about that. Mike Glenn is with us today at
the Radio Backyard Fence. Go to chris.org. You'll see the
new book, preaching in a Post-truth world. We'll open the
lines for you to (877) 548-3675. We're talking about truth in
(26:04):
a post-truth world today with Mike Glenn. And here's the
truth for you. Dads matter. They matter a lot. And
the abundant Life Ministry of Care net wants dads to
know fatherhood is more than just showing up. It's about
shaping lives. And if you're a dad, go to Chris Fabriclive.
Org we've got a green Coronet link for you where
(26:25):
you can download a free seven day devotional I think
will really encourage you. It's titled seven marks of a
Healthy Dad. It's designed to help fathers live with purpose,
with faith and confidence in whatever season you're in. Get
some encouragement for your father journey at Chris Fabry Live.
(26:46):
Click the Green connect link right there today, Chris Fabry,
where you'll also find out about Mike Glenn joining us
from the great state of Tennessee today. Preaching in a
post-truth world is the new book, Recentering The Pulpit in
a Chaotic World. Buy one for your pastor, but read
it first and then give it to your pastor. Um,
(27:07):
let me let me circle back here for you, uh,
and ask this question about you just mentioned the the
Christian music industry and being on the road. And I
agree with you. Environment is part of the problem. There
are temptations, real temptations there. But there are pastors who
have fallen, who do very little traveling. They were at
(27:29):
home the whole time, and it was more a matter
of the heart than just being in a bus. Right?
S2 (27:37):
If if you and I work together, Chris, I will
demand of you two questions, and I will stop you routinely.
And I will ask you two questions. I will ask
you one. What are you reading in Scripture? Not what
are you preparing to teach or what's coming up for
the sermon, but what are you reading for your own edification? Uh,
(27:58):
one thing that happens when you get into professional Christian
work is the Bible becomes a tool. Uh, and you
quit reading it. We got into this because we love scripture,
and then all of a sudden we're disconnected from that.
So the first question is, what are you reading for you?
Second question is what is Jesus teaching you? The radical
teaching of Christianity is Our rabbi is alive. And if
(28:22):
you open the Scripture and sit down, he will teach you,
just like he taught Peter and all the rest. Ministry.
However you define it, however you express it comes out
of the overflow of Christ filling your life with His Spirit.
And if you're not coming from out of that overflow,
then you really have nothing to bring. And that's when
(28:45):
you're dangerous.
S1 (28:46):
So in that sense, then, as I said earlier, this
is not just for pastors. It's also for, you know,
a program like this. You know, somebody behind the microphone,
you're talking to me today, but you're also talking to
the dad or the mom who's listening, who's trying to,
you know, get their kids to to sign up for
the program and, and to be believers for the long term.
(29:09):
And the kids are looking at the lives of that
mom and dad, aren't they?
S2 (29:14):
Right. Yeah. They're watching. I tell pastors, people will watch
your marriage long before they listen to what you will
say and to see how you treat your wife, how
you treat your children. Because if you do not treat
the people you say you love, well, then you're probably
not going to treat me well. Um, so. But but
the most of us make the mistake. And, Chris, you
(29:37):
and I have both been guilty of this, of thinking
that working for Jesus is the same thing as being
with Jesus. And it's not.
S1 (29:48):
Why?
S2 (29:49):
Um, because there has to be that that personal, ongoing connection, um,
of of of him flowing into you and his life
being lived, um, through you and out of you, into
the lives of the other people. Um, but ministers don't explode.
(30:14):
We implode, and the pressure on the outside becomes greater
than the pressure on the inside, because we're not constantly
filling ourselves with the presence of Christ and the Spirit
of Christ. And then the world crushes us out of that.
S1 (30:28):
And and that's a good thing for those who are listening,
who are in the pew, pray for your pastor or pastors, right?
S2 (30:38):
All the time.
S1 (30:39):
Because of these pressures and because of these struggles and
because of the the possibility of just getting busy and
calling it good. Right?
S2 (30:48):
Yeah. And the enemy, the enemy targets us leaders, because
if you bring them the leader, then you can affect
those who follow that leader. You know, as you say,
there are a lot of people now rethinking their own
life because somebody that they admired has now slipped. Bingo.
And they're beginning to doubt their own. You know, if
he can't do it, maybe I can't do it.
S1 (31:10):
Isn't this what working out your salvation really is? It's
salvation is a point in time. You know, it's a
a something that happens in the heart. If you're born again,
it happens, but it happens every day for the believer
where you say, okay, because of this salvation, here's how
I'm going to choose to live today.
S2 (31:31):
Right? And it's that daily, that sanctification process of being
daily remade into the image of Christ and to the
likeness of Christ, uh, less of us, more of him. Yes.
S1 (31:44):
You. You tell a story.
S2 (31:46):
Yes, it is a painful process, which is most people
don't get that serious about it because, uh, you know, uh,
you get mad at somebody and you're mad because they
hurt your feelings, because they questioned your identity and your
purpose and your giftedness, and, uh, and then you want
to go, you know, try to forgive that person. And
that's a difficult process.
S1 (32:08):
And that takes me to the, uh, the quote that you,
your counselor friend of yours, said, most people just want
to get rid of the pain. They don't want to
get well. And I think that describes a lot of
people listening right now. And one of them who's behind
this microphone, it's like take the pain away. I don't
want this anymore. You know, just just do you know,
(32:29):
you did this for the blind guy. You did this
for the lame man. His friends, the paralytic was let
down in the middle, and he got up and picked
up his mat and walked away. Why? Why won't you
do that for me?
S2 (32:43):
Because Jesus is interested in healing, not the removal of pain.
And there's a difference. Uh, and that's why the world
offers so many, uh, opiates and and distractions to keep
your mind off the pain. Well, sometimes the pain is
the way the body tells you you need to pay
(33:05):
attention to something. Uh, if you have a pain in
your body, it's usually because. Something you need to pay
attention to something. And if you hide the pain, you're
missing the message.
S1 (33:17):
And isn't this why we're so addicted to our phones
and the internet and everything that's there? It's a distraction
that takes.
S2 (33:25):
Away the pain. We don't have to think. I don't
have to think. I can just, you know, look at
another dancing cat video.
S1 (33:33):
And you don't watch dancing cats, do you?
S2 (33:37):
Yeah. No.
S1 (33:41):
Um, what's the difference between wishing and wanting?
S2 (33:47):
Oh, gosh. Learned that from a friend of mine playing golf. And, uh, I, uh,
hit my golf ball, and it went somewhere, and, uh,
he started laughing at me. Well, you know, golf, you
don't laugh at each other. You say tough shot will
find the ball something, you know, some kind of encouragement,
but you don't laugh. He laughed at me and I said,
(34:07):
why are you laughing? He said, I'm laughing at you.
I said, why are you laughing at me? He said,
you don't do anything in your swing. To make the
ball do what you want it to do. He said,
you just kind of stand up here and wish. You know,
and and that was the day I learned the difference
between wishing and wanting. Wishing means I'd like for something
(34:28):
to happen, but I'm not going to do anything to
make it happen. Wanting means I want this. I'd like
for this to happen, and I'm going to do the
necessary things. You know, I want to go to med school.
What's your grade point average one four. You're not going
to med school. You know you're wishing. Yes. Okay, now
(34:48):
I want to be more like Christ. Okay. What are
you doing to make that happen? And this is not
rocket science. I mean, everybody knows in order to do that,
then one, you should read the Bible daily. You should
be involved in your prayer life. You should be involved
in some kind of small group with other believers, uh,
(35:10):
who are holding you accountable. And when I mean holding
you accountable, holding you accountable to your best self. Um,
not not that the jumping in your grill all the time,
but they're saying to you, we know who you are,
and this behavior doesn't match who we know you to be.
Holding you accountable to your best self and then some
(35:31):
kind of ministry. Uh, because there are some things we
learn only in obedience. Uh, you know, you can watch
a video on changing a tire, but until you get
out there and try to find your tire tool in
the trunk, you're not going to be able to change
a tire. Some things are only learned in the doing.
S1 (35:51):
But this is where I go back to that analogy
you gave about being a swimmer and being able to float,
to relax and float. Because I think a lot of Christian,
the Christian life in a lot of ways is I'm
going to pull myself up by my bootstraps. I'm going
to kick that habit. I'm going to do this on
(36:12):
my own, in my own strength. We wouldn't say it
that way, but that's what we think that we're going
to do this. And then if it doesn't happen, then, well,
I just didn't try hard enough, you know? I didn't
pray enough faith.
S2 (36:25):
Yeah.
S1 (36:25):
Right. Yeah.
S2 (36:26):
Mhm. Mhm. Um, the interesting thing, uh, in this process is.
We think work should be hard. Uh, and one of
the reasons people have a hard time understanding their own
giftedness is because it comes easily to them. Uh, you know,
(36:49):
you can imagine being here in Nashville. I know some
very gifted musicians, and they will play. And I will say, man,
that was amazing what you did. And they will shrug
and say, anybody can do that. And it infuriates me, uh,
because I know one person, but because it's a gift
to them, they do not see the difficulty in it.
And we think that following Christ should have has to
(37:12):
be some kind of of great struggle. And I'm climbing
this mountain and all of that when it is a
gift and Christ has gifted you in certain ways. So
he wants to for you and me to work with
Him and His Kingdom ministry throughout the world. And when
(37:35):
you're in that groove, uh, you know, it comes easily.
It comes naturally because this is what you were born for.
This is what you were gifted for.
S4 (37:47):
And that's where the joy.
S1 (37:48):
Comes from, isn't.
S5 (37:49):
It? That's where the joy comes in.
S2 (37:52):
Uh, because this is this is fun. Uh, you know,
nobody has more fun than I do. And, uh, working
with pastors and local churches and and watching them grab
hold of who they are in Christ and the in
the vision that Christ has for their community.
S6 (38:10):
Yeah, but there's a lot of heartache. There's a lot
of tears. There's a lot of there's a story that
you tell.
S1 (38:15):
And when we come back, I want you to tell
this story in the book, preaching in a Post-truth world
by Mike Glenn. It's our featured resource today at Chris fabric.org.
I want every pastor to get a copy of this,
but I want people in the pew to be exposed
to it as well. As we're talking with him here today,
you have to hear this story coming straight ahead on
Moody Radio online. Chris Fabry live dot. Mike Glenn is with.
S6 (38:48):
Us.
S1 (38:48):
Today at the radio backyard fence. Preaching in a post-truth
world is our featured resource Recentering the pulpit in a
chaotic world. There's so much in here that I want
to convey. I want to get to two things before
we end, though. And one is I have been really
interested in the people that I get to talk with
and and what, what books, you know, affect them. But
(39:11):
what films changed them? And I remember Doctor Winifred Neeley
told me one time here about his mother taking him
as a young boy, African American boy in Chicago, lived
in the Ida B Wells homes, took him to see
Sidney Poitier in In the Heat of the night, which
(39:31):
I don't think a little kid should see, you know,
thinking about it now. But he said it just changed
his life. There was something that happened to him when
he saw that movie. You know, a person who looked
like him up there on the screen, number one. But
there was a movie that you saw and it's from 1962,
so it's kind of giving your age away. Mike.
S2 (39:52):
Yeah, I was a kid.
S1 (39:53):
Yeah, it's got Jackie Gleason in it. It's it's GIGO,
t GIGO and, uh, that movie had a big impact
on you.
S2 (40:03):
Yeah, Yeah. It's a story of, uh, of a of
a deaf mute janitor who, uh, finds his mother and
child hiding out of the weather, uh, and, uh, in
Paris and takes takes them into his little apartment. And
in one of the scenes, he takes the little girl
(40:23):
to church and tries to explain to her what this
church is and what the holy water is about, and
that kind of stuff. And when he gets frustrated, he
begins to hit himself in the face. Uh, and uh,
the more and more I have been in ministry, the
more I have thought about that one scene of how
frustrated I am. Uh, the number of times I don't
(40:46):
have words to say what I want to say, or
I can't communicate it the way I want to. And
I end up just like Jackie Gleason, wanting to pound
myself in the face because I'm so frustrated that I
can't say what I want to say.
S1 (41:02):
But you keep going.
S4 (41:04):
And you keep.
S2 (41:04):
Oh, gosh. Yeah.
S4 (41:05):
You keep trying to find.
S2 (41:07):
Find another way to say it. Another story to tell. Uh,
but sometimes to know what you know and then not
be able to say it is very, very frustrating.
S4 (41:18):
Yes.
S2 (41:18):
And and then, you know, the culture changes and all that.
Then you got to find another way to say it,
because what worked yesterday doesn't work today. Um, but that's
part of the fun and part of the challenge.
S4 (41:28):
So there's this.
S1 (41:31):
Story that you tell in the book about leading a
class and, and asking the people in the class to
write a letter to their fathers.
S4 (41:41):
Mhm.
S1 (41:42):
And, um, you say that this was a moment that
changed your life. It changed your ministry. Tell me about.
S4 (41:48):
That.
S5 (41:48):
Yeah.
S2 (41:49):
Um, we were doing a thing called Kairos when it
was young adults, and we had come to a point
where I realized that a lot of them were stuck
because of their dads. Uh, when you introduced and said,
God loves you like a dad. For a lot of them.
It messed them up because their relationship with their dad
was toxic. So we had to stop and talk a
lot for several weeks about what your relationship with your
(42:11):
dad meant. So one night they showed up and I
handed them envelopes and paper and pens and I said,
you're going to write your dad. I said, I don't
care if you write. I don't want to hate you anymore.
If that's all you got, that's all you got. And
this one girl waited until she knew she was last.
And she handed me a blank piece of paper and said.
My dad started abusing me when I was seven years old.
(42:34):
What do I write? Uh, and it it blew me
out of the water. And I realized, uh, I don't know, Chris.
I had understood the level of pain that was sitting
out on every pew and and on every chair. And
I remember walking out to the car after that conversation
just telling myself, hang on, do you get to the car?
(42:57):
And I fell apart in the car And, uh, the
prayer I had was, I don't know what to do.
I don't know what to say. I don't know how
to do this. But if you will show me, I
promise you I will do it or die trying. And, uh.
And that became a moment of clarification for me when
I realized the pain that's sitting out there every week
(43:19):
that is just desperate to hear the good news of
the love of Jesus that he has for him right now. Yeah.
S4 (43:26):
What did she.
S1 (43:26):
Wind up writing? Anything on that paper?
S5 (43:30):
Uh, yeah.
S2 (43:30):
She wrote her dad, and she says you've never asked,
but I forgive you anyway. And that was her letter.
S4 (43:41):
And.
S1 (43:41):
And forgiveness. There's another subject, you know, that a lot
of people in the pew are dealing with. What does
that look like? Because for many, they think of forgiveness
has to be reconciliation.
S4 (43:52):
No, no.
S2 (43:53):
Not at all. Forgiveness is releasing the other person from
the expectation they can fix what they did. Okay. If,
like I said, I've been married 45 years, that's long
enough for me to say something that hurt Jeannie's feelings.
I say, I'm sorry. She believes me. But the hurt
that I put in her life is still there. Only
(44:15):
Christ can go there and heal that. So I can apologize,
but I can't heal it. I can't fix it. And so, Chris,
if you say something to me that hurts me, and
you say, Mike, I'm really sorry, and I forgive you,
and I do forgive you. I've got to do something
with the pain. And what you and I need to know.
(44:35):
As believers, we take that pain to Christ and say,
this is where I was. This is what happened. This
is what was said, and this is why I'm hurt.
And then Christ heals. That hurt. But you can't or
I can't. And forgiveness is just releasing you from the expectation.
You can fix it because you can't.
S4 (44:52):
And you know.
S1 (44:53):
The struggle I think most people have, Mike, is that
they feel like when they forgive, you know, they express forgiveness,
and then that comes up in their mind again. They think, well,
I haven't forgiven. I'm not. I'm back to square one.
S5 (45:07):
It's like a spiral.
S2 (45:08):
We want it to be a staircase. Deal with it.
Move on. Deal with it, move on. It's like a spiral.
You keep coming back to the same question, but as
a deeper level.
S4 (45:17):
Yes.
S1 (45:18):
So in that sense, you're working out your forgiveness with.
With fear and trembling.
S4 (45:22):
Just like you know.
S1 (45:24):
Your salvation as well. Um, what you're saying here is true.
It's it's good. There's another section where you write, most
of us haven't mined our own stories for the great
truths that are hidden so close to our own hearts.
We take our faith for granted. We've been like this
most of our lives, and now it's part of our
(45:45):
daily routine. We know what we know. We know what
we believe. And yet, when the moment opens in a
conversation with a friend, we don't know what to say.
So that that quote that I said about swimming and
relaxing and allow God to do something in you as
well as the other person, whether you're a pastor or
you're just sitting down with coffee over a coffee with
some friend. Uh, this is really good stuff. Mike, thank
(46:08):
you for sharing your heart with us today.
S2 (46:09):
It's always an honor. Great to talk to you.
S1 (46:12):
If you go to the website Chris. Org, you'll see
Mike Glenn two N's on Glenn. Mike Glenn's book preaching
in a Post-truth world Recentering the pulpit in a Chaotic World.
You'll find that at Chris Fabry, Dot and I hope
you'll come back and have a conversation with us tomorrow
(46:33):
about your dad. When you think of your dad, what
comes to mind? We're going to talk about that right
here on Chris Fabry live production of Moody Radio, a
ministry of Moody Bible Institute. Thanks for listening.
He is one of my favorite people on the planet.
He is real. He's honest. He's had a lot of
life experience. He has a heart for pastors because he's
been one since Methuselah was in his youth group. The
first conversation I had with him was about his mother
and I. We laughed so hard and cried because I
related so much with the struggle that he felt. That
(00:27):
book was coffee with mom today at the radio backyard
Fence the return of doctor Mike Glenn. He's stopping by
the back fence today to talk about pastors and truth.
How to convey the truth of God's Word in a
post-truth world. And I told him before the program, the
only quibble I have with him is the title, because
I don't think this is just for pastors. It's for anyone.
(00:48):
It's for you and me who want to present biblical
truth to a friend or family member who says, I
don't know about that. Or maybe you feel that way
about truth today. Some encouragements. Coming up straight ahead on
Chris Bay, relive the program from the heart to the
heart for the heart. First, a thank you to our team.
Ryan McConaughey is doing all things technical. Trish is our producer.
(01:09):
Anthony will be answering your calls today. Thank you to
our new back fence partners. There has been a flurry
of people in the last couple of days who have said, hey,
I want to be a back fence partner. I don't
know why. I mean, I know why they want to,
but I don't know why. It's just the last couple
of days. But it's so encouraging to see because your
gifts keep these conversations coming, not only for you and
(01:31):
for those that you you care about, but for those
you don't even know who need the encouragement that they
are going to hear today. Real life discussions. So if
you want to be a partner with us and give
a gift each month, get my back fence. Post a
video that comes to you every Thursday and there are
other perks you receive. Just go to Chris. You can
(01:53):
find out how to support us, become a back fence partner,
or you can give a one time gift that'll be
appreciated here in June, our fiscal year end. Chris. Fabbri. Fabbri. Chris. Fabbri. Org.
Or if you'd rather call 866958669532279. Thanks. For those of
(02:14):
you who are new back fence partners or thinking about it.
Doctor Mike Glenn is president of the Engaged Church Network,
former senior pastor of Brentwood Baptist Church in Brentwood, Tennessee.
Under his leadership, the church grew to eight campuses and
a membership of more than 10,000. He's written four books.
I mentioned coffee with Mom in Real Time is another.
(02:37):
We talked about the gospel of Yes, and today we're
going to talk about preaching in a post-truth world. Recentering
the pulpit in a chaotic world. Married to Jeannie. How
many years you two been married?
S2 (02:49):
Mike just celebrated 45.
S1 (02:52):
45 years. Isn't that great? How's she put up with
you all this time?
S2 (02:56):
Well, we just had to renegotiate for 46. So that
was where I was.
S1 (03:01):
Is it a year by year contract that you go through?
S2 (03:03):
It's a year by year contract now. Yeah. Okay. You
know somebody you know you go ahead. You know, you first.
Your first uh, uh, entry is you dinner and roses. No, 45.
You have to you have to drop some change. Yeah.
So she's got big expectations for the 45th wedding, so.
S3 (03:23):
I like that.
S2 (03:24):
But I'm really blessed.
S3 (03:25):
So I said that.
S1 (03:26):
You're writing to pastors here in this new book. You're
concerned about the person in the pew. This is for
both audiences, isn't it?
S2 (03:33):
Yes. Yeah. Just the we live in a culture. And
my first point was to help pastors understand that when
we stand in the pulpit and read from God's Word
to us, it is God's eternal truth, and that's already
settled in our mind and heart. Uh, and when we
(03:54):
proclaim this is the truth of God. We're saying it
from 100% totally convinced. Congregation is hearing it. Well, maybe
I've had 20 or 30 truth claims. I'm not sure
about truth at all. And so I'm measuring what you
bring to me from Scripture against all the other truth
(04:15):
claims that I've heard during the week. And if you're
not aware of that gap, then it's going to affect
your preaching.
S3 (04:22):
Yes.
S1 (04:23):
Which is the use that metaphor of minding the gap
when they say in England, when you're stepping on the train. Right.
S2 (04:31):
Right. Mhm. Yeah. If you, if you don't mind, if
you're not aware of it then it's going to trip
your preaching up. It's not a bad thing. It just is.
And you have to pay attention to it.
S3 (04:42):
Yes.
S1 (04:43):
And it's the same way with the relationships we have.
Because you know as well as I do, there are
a lot of people who are have been in church
and are walking away and, and the pandemic did a
number on that talk about that.
S2 (04:55):
Oh, gosh. Yeah. Uh. Uh. I'm having a train wreck
in my head. Trying to give you all all the answers. Uh,
what we found out. Church attendance was about 25% of
the people walked away, and they haven't come back. Uh,
about 50% are now hybrid in that they tell us
(05:16):
they go to church all the time, but what they
mean is we go once a month and we watch
on streaming. Uh, the other three Sundays of the month. Uh,
so it's really affected, uh, the, the, uh, the size
of the crowd, the energy of the crowd and that, uh,
(05:38):
what pastors went through of having members turn on them
as we tried to work through this, um, a lot
of pastors left the ministry during that time, or others said,
I'm going to get my church through this and I'm
going to retire. And one of the challenges right now
is that the church in North America faces a wave
of retirements. And and we don't have the pipeline to
(06:00):
backfill them right now.
S1 (06:02):
And is that why you're so involved with the engaged
church network that has become your new thing after stepping away, right.
S2 (06:11):
Yeah, I stepped away from full time leadership of the
church to start working with churches, mostly in Middle Tennessee,
of identifying, developing, training and then mentoring, coaching new pastors.
Because and I want to really make this clear, Chris,
I have never been more excited about the gospel than
(06:32):
I am, right? Opportunities that we have in North America,
especially because all of the questions that are being asked
are Jesus questions. Questions of identity. Questions of purpose. Questions
of meaning. Questions of value. They're all Jesus questions. And
this is a great opportunity for the church to be
(06:54):
confident and, um, uh, and persistent in our evangelistic efforts.
S3 (07:00):
Yes.
S1 (07:01):
And and you make the point that when I was
watching a Billy Graham, it was Paul Harvey interviewed Billy
Graham years and years ago. It's just fascinating. And what
the point that you make is the world that Billy
Graham preached in basically agreed with him that the Bible
was the word of God. There was some differences of
(07:22):
opinion about that, but pretty much. And you say this book,
preaching in a Post-truth world, is about finding a place
to begin. Like missionaries of past generations, we find ourselves
walking into a different country with a different language and culture.
What worked back home in another place, in another time
won't work here and now. Where do we begin? Where
(07:43):
do we start? Those are the questions that you're answering, right?
S2 (07:47):
Right. Uh, when I started, uh, you know, a bunch
of years ago, uh, we all went to the Billy
Graham School of Evangelism, where you would begin the conversation
with the Bible says, and everybody would agree with you,
at least, that the Bible was a book of authority.
And everybody recognized that. Now, if you say the Bible says,
(08:10):
they will shrug and say, that's nice, but why should
I trust Bible among all the other religious books of
the world? Why should I trust the Bible over, uh,
you know, the false argument between Bible and science? Why
should I trust what the Bible says rather than what
this or that person says? And so you almost have
(08:32):
to be ready to make a philosophical argument before you
make the theological argument.
S3 (08:36):
Yes. And you do that really well.
S1 (08:39):
Uh, Mike lands with us today preaching in a post-truth world.
There was a situation that you had when you and
your wife, uh, went to a party. You met some
new people. They asked you what you did. I want
you to tell that story. When we come back from
a break. Preaching in a post-truth world is our featured resource.
Recentering the pulpit in a chaotic world. But again, it's
(09:01):
not just for pastors. I think that's the main audience,
but it's for everybody else in the pew as well.
I think it'll be really helpful as you're hearing today.
Just go to the website. Chris Fabry lives more with Mike.
Straight ahead. Talking with doctor Mike Glenn today, who is
(09:27):
president of the Engaged Church Network, former senior pastor of
Brentwood Baptist Church in Brentwood, Tennessee. Preaching in a post-truth
world is going to encourage your pastor, but I think
it'll encourage you as well. The subtitle is Recentering The
Pulpit in a Chaotic World. You can see it at
Chris Livorno. Chris Fabbri. Livorno. I love some of the
(09:52):
things that you say in here, Mike. Ah, just stop
me in my tracks. And one of them was toward
the end of the book, and I think this is
going to be something that somebody who's listening needs to hear.
How different would our lives be if we lived every moment,
not having to prove anything to anybody? We don't have
to earn anyone's love. We're fully loved already. We don't
(10:15):
have to prove our value. We're valued already. We don't
have to look for meaning in our lives because we
know our purpose. We don't have to be afraid of
what's coming next. Our God has already walked millions through
the valley of death. He can get us through as well.
The hardest thing about learning how to swim is to
learn to float. The most difficult thing to teach a
(10:37):
child as they're learning how to swim is how to
relax and trust the water. Once the child learns how
to float, it's easy to add the strokes and the kicks.
What if each one of us could learn how to
float in our lives? What if we could just relax
and trust Jesus to hold us up the way the
(10:58):
water holds up a swimmer? I read that, Mike, and
I don't know who you're writing to, but I needed
to hear that. When I read it, it was so true.
S2 (11:10):
Yeah, yeah. You know, it takes you three days to
teach a kid how to float, and then they learn
to swim very, very quickly after that.
S1 (11:20):
Yeah. You write the challenge these days isn't people believing
the wrong things, but that people don't believe anything at all.
What do you mean by that?
S2 (11:31):
Um, we have we have been so disappointed on so
many levels in our lives that we we don't listen
to any of the experts anymore. We don't trust any
of our institutions. Machines. And so we don't make any
big faith commitments of any kind. Uh, we become very
casual about any commitment. And that once that commitment no
(11:53):
longer feels good or it no longer works for us,
then we will abandon that commitment and we will move
on to something else. Uh, we will abandon a long
time relationship. We will abandon, uh, a marriage. We will abandon, uh,
a job or a career because it no longer feels good.
(12:14):
But we don't make that commitment anymore because we no
longer believe in what we're doing.
S1 (12:21):
And that works itself out in the church. Uh, tell
that story about the couple that you met, and they
found out you were a pastor.
S2 (12:29):
Oh, yeah. That's always a fun part of any dinner
meeting when people find out you're a pastor. Uh, because
it usually freaks their behavior. Uh, but this this couple
was very, very polite, and, hey, what do you do?
And stuff? And, you know, I told them. And how
did you end up doing that? So I ended up
telling them about my calling and, uh, and my life
(12:49):
as a pastor. And then the wife just very coolly
said to me, I'm glad you found your truth. And
I didn't know what to do with that. Uh, because
for me, truth had always been, uh, something outside of me,
an objective truth, something that was stated and that you could, uh,
(13:10):
believe in or build your life on. But it wasn't
something that was personal that I could construct, uh, and, uh,
but she just coolly told me, I'm glad you found yours,
but that's not mine, and it's not ours.
S1 (13:25):
How did you respond to that, then?
S2 (13:29):
Um, I don't think I did as well as I
thought I could have, but, uh, you know, I think
what happened was we went into discussions about what? What
truth she believed and what and what her truth was
was a a a cut and paste of about nine
different theologies, um, which are, which are totally incoherent once
(13:56):
you press them. Right. Uh, you know, you always see
that coexist bumper sticker right on the back, and you
want to tell them, obviously you don't know anything about
what you've got on your bumper, because none of these
people would agree that they could coexist, um, because of
what the different truth claims that they make. Right?
S1 (14:20):
Right. And so then you have to you have to
figure out then, you know, how do we then live
as Francis Schaeffer said? Um, well.
S2 (14:29):
That's part of it. Part of it is how you live.
The other part of it is, and, Chris, this is
the fascinating thing. People love to talk about Jesus. They
are intrigued by this person of of who Jesus is
and what he taught. And can we actually do what
he said we could do? Uh, so while sometimes we're
(14:51):
being told, hey, you know, don't bring up Jesus. Jesus
is one of the things that the world wants to
talk about. Uh, because here was a human being and,
you know, and, and, uh, seminary, they talk about theology
from below and theology from above, Christology from above, and
Christology from below. That you can start with the divine Jesus,
(15:12):
the Son of God, who came into the world. Or
you can start with the person of Jesus who reveals
himself to be God, the God-Man. Uh, but if you
can start with this story of Jesus, uh, this fisherman
from Galilee, I mean, this carpenter from Galilee who taught
a bunch of fishermen about what life means. That's where
(15:33):
your conversation begins now.
S1 (15:36):
Because that's what you're trying to get into the heart
of the pastor is to enter into the life where
the people in the pew are living, rather than telling
them what you know. Right?
S2 (15:48):
Right. Right, right. It's, you know, it's almost telling the
story of Jesus to bring them into that story the
same way that Peter and John and the others were
brought in. Yes.
S1 (16:01):
What I find that happens with the. When, you know,
I'm glad you found your truth. It's not mine. Um,
I think people are looking for what works. And if
it works for them, and it probably she would have
said that the person you were talking with said, you know,
my truth works for me. At least it has up
until now. And I think that's one of the reasons
(16:21):
why you say 25% have kind of left the church
after the pandemic. Um, it was irrelevant to the what
they were hearing in church was irrelevant. It wasn't working
for them anymore. And so they.
S2 (16:35):
Went.
S1 (16:36):
Yeah.
S2 (16:37):
Exactly.
S1 (16:37):
Do you agree with that?
S2 (16:39):
Exactly right. Um, I am trying to, um, you know,
it's the old joke about how many angels can dance
on the head of a pin. Um, that that's what
preachers wanted to talk about. But this guy is trying
to make it to Thursday. Yeah, I'm trying to be
a father, and I'm trying to hold my marriage together.
And I'm trying to figure out what my boss wants
(17:00):
at work. Um. Uh, and the 15 year old's trying
to figure out who they are, and, uh, and there's this.
There's this work for me. They've got friends making all
kinds of decisions. You got wives going, you know. Should
I work full time? Should I stay at home full time? And.
And no matter what decision they make, somebody mad at them? Right. Uh,
(17:24):
so that's who's out there and that's, you know, that's
who's trying to make a living. And so teaching now
has to be very, very practical. Uh, and this is
what Jesus taught us about real life, and this is
why he taught us. And this is why it works
us in the real life, living as he showed us.
S1 (17:47):
But see, Mike, what most people believe or how they
will define works, is God acts the way I want
him to. I do x and y and Z that
I think he's told me to do, and then he
responds and he does the same for me. What I
think he ought to do. And when.
S2 (18:07):
The.
S1 (18:08):
And the gap is, he doesn't. He didn't sign up
for that.
S2 (18:13):
No, that's a contract party. The first part agrees to this,
and part of the second part agrees to that. He
doesn't come to us with a contract. He comes with
a covenant. And the covenant says, because of who I am,
I'm always going to do what's best for you because
I love you so much. I'm always going to do
what's best for you, even when that means I tell
(18:35):
you no. And I've lived long enough. It's probably. You
have to thank God for unanswered prayers. Uh, to be
in a situation where that's what I said I wanted.
And now, thank God he didn't give it to me. Yes.
S1 (18:51):
So what do you say to the pastor and you
say in the book, the end of judges ever did
what everyone did, what was right in their own eyes?
That's what we're living in today. Everybody is living their
own truth. So how does a pastor make a difference?
Or anybody, any Christian, make a difference in somebody else's life?
When we're up against this.
S2 (19:12):
Uh, one, we we readjust our time schedule for evangelism. Uh,
I was and was trained with, you know, you went
through the gospel presentation at the end of that gospel presentation,
the person made a decision, uh, and now it may
be several months of conversation before any decision is made.
(19:37):
It may be a year or two before any decision
is made. And the reason is we go back to
the thing we talked about earlier, about the lack of trust. And, um,
so does the person trust you and have you proven
to be trustworthy, uh, in their life? Okay. Okay. I
(19:59):
found out I could trust Mike. Uh, Mike will show
up when I need him to show up. He'll keep
his promises to me, that kind of stuff. Now I'm
going to give him permission to speak into my life
at a different level. And depending on the kind of
hurt that that person has had, then that determines how
long it will take.
S1 (20:19):
So you can't rush that. You don't know this, but
we had, uh, Greg Kokal on on Monday, and he
was talking about this very thing and what he said
that most people have been taught to be harvesters. Visitors.
And if you don't seal the deal, you know, then
you're you're a failure. And he said, exactly. I am
a gardener. I am tilling the soil. I'm planting seeds.
(20:41):
I'm getting rocks in people's shoes with questions and and
allowing them to process this and think through it. That's
a different way to to see it, isn't it?
S2 (20:51):
Yes. And, you know, that's the reason Jesus talks so
much about agriculture. You know, you work the field, you wait,
you plant the seed, you wait, you water the field,
you wait. Uh, so a lot of a lot of
that is exactly right. Is is saying just what I
need to say in this moment and then trust the
spirit to work with it, but not feeling the need
(21:14):
to to to push it to an immature or a
predetermined outcome.
S1 (21:19):
Okay. So adjusting the time schedule is one thing to do.
Give me another one.
S2 (21:26):
Uh, tell stories, uh, Tell stories of, uh, tell the
parables of Jesus. Tell tell the stories about Jesus. Do
not assume that people have heard the stories of Jesus.
They haven't, uh, they may have been in church, whatever,
(21:46):
but they do not know the stories of of Jesus, uh,
the way that you would assume they do. So don't
be afraid just to just lay out as simple as
as you, as you would teach any five year old, uh,
the story of Jesus. And then let the story work.
Tell your story. Here's what I learned. Here's where I
(22:08):
was when I got angry, and I remembered the Lord
said I didn't have the right to be angry, that
I had to forgive my brother and restore that relationship.
I didn't believe it either. But here's what I did,
and here's how it worked out for me. Now I
know why he tells me that.
S1 (22:24):
So you you bring it. You bring it from your
own life. Or a story. Stories in the news, whatever
you allow that to sift into so that the the listener,
the person who's watching you, listening and viewing this participates. Right.
S2 (22:42):
Right. Right. Mhm. Same thing Jesus did. Jesus told stories.
And you could pick who you were in the story.
You could, you know the story of the prodigal son
the first time you hear it. Most likely you're the prodigal.
If you live long enough, then you become the older brother. Mm.
And if you live long enough as I have now,
(23:03):
I'm the father.
S1 (23:06):
Yeah. I said in the introduction that Methuselah was in
your youth group. That's not true, is it? Yeah. Uh,
you know, you mentioned the trust thing a minute ago,
and that's where some people will get hung up. And
it is a pastor who ran away, you know, ran
away from the faith or ran off with somebody else or,
(23:28):
you know, had some kind of moral failing. Even in
the last week, we've heard of a Christian musician who
has now confessed to. Yeah, I've been living a double life.
And that that can shake people who have listened to
the songs or listened to the sermons and asked the question, well,
is anything that I believe real? Because it wasn't real.
(23:50):
It seems like it wasn't real to them. What do
you say about that?
S2 (23:54):
Oh, gosh. Um, yeah. The recent the recent events are
something that we see way, way too often. And a
lot of times it's because, uh, folks don't understand that the, the,
the worship music industry, uh, most of the time, what
happens is you have a young person come to the
(24:15):
Nashville area. They want they want to write songs, they
want to sing, they want to lead worship. Um, they
get a contract and and they do the first album
that is out of, um, uh, out of all the
songs they've written since they were 12 years old. Uh,
and then the record company says, okay, that's a great
(24:37):
that's a great first album. Now we need now we
need 15 more new songs, and we need them by
next week. And now it's a job. And now to
sell that album, because the way the music industry gets
paid now is with concerts. You're going to be on
the road 200 nights a year. Now you think about that.
(24:57):
You get on a bus and you're away from home.
You're away from your wife, you're away from your children,
you're away from all your friends who know you well
for 200 nights a year. Uh, and, uh, and that
is not a good place to be successful. We isolate
these people. Uh, they don't have friends around them. The
friends they have around them are making money off of them.
(25:19):
So they don't tell them? No. Um, the friends they
have are people who. Who need that friendship. So they
don't they don't hold them accountable. And if you're outside
of an accountability group, it's really hard to be successful.
S1 (25:34):
Okay. I want to come back and talk more with
you about that. Mike Glenn is with us today at
the Radio Backyard Fence. Go to chris.org. You'll see the
new book, preaching in a Post-truth world. We'll open the
lines for you to (877) 548-3675. We're talking about truth in
(26:04):
a post-truth world today with Mike Glenn. And here's the
truth for you. Dads matter. They matter a lot. And
the abundant Life Ministry of Care net wants dads to
know fatherhood is more than just showing up. It's about
shaping lives. And if you're a dad, go to Chris Fabriclive.
Org we've got a green Coronet link for you where
(26:25):
you can download a free seven day devotional I think
will really encourage you. It's titled seven marks of a
Healthy Dad. It's designed to help fathers live with purpose,
with faith and confidence in whatever season you're in. Get
some encouragement for your father journey at Chris Fabry Live.
(26:46):
Click the Green connect link right there today, Chris Fabry,
where you'll also find out about Mike Glenn joining us
from the great state of Tennessee today. Preaching in a
post-truth world is the new book, Recentering The Pulpit in
a Chaotic World. Buy one for your pastor, but read
it first and then give it to your pastor. Um,
(27:07):
let me let me circle back here for you, uh,
and ask this question about you just mentioned the the
Christian music industry and being on the road. And I
agree with you. Environment is part of the problem. There
are temptations, real temptations there. But there are pastors who
have fallen, who do very little traveling. They were at
(27:29):
home the whole time, and it was more a matter
of the heart than just being in a bus. Right?
S2 (27:37):
If if you and I work together, Chris, I will
demand of you two questions, and I will stop you routinely.
And I will ask you two questions. I will ask
you one. What are you reading in Scripture? Not what
are you preparing to teach or what's coming up for
the sermon, but what are you reading for your own edification? Uh,
(27:58):
one thing that happens when you get into professional Christian
work is the Bible becomes a tool. Uh, and you
quit reading it. We got into this because we love scripture,
and then all of a sudden we're disconnected from that.
So the first question is, what are you reading for you?
Second question is what is Jesus teaching you? The radical
teaching of Christianity is Our rabbi is alive. And if
(28:22):
you open the Scripture and sit down, he will teach you,
just like he taught Peter and all the rest. Ministry.
However you define it, however you express it comes out
of the overflow of Christ filling your life with His Spirit.
And if you're not coming from out of that overflow,
then you really have nothing to bring. And that's when
(28:45):
you're dangerous.
S1 (28:46):
So in that sense, then, as I said earlier, this
is not just for pastors. It's also for, you know,
a program like this. You know, somebody behind the microphone,
you're talking to me today, but you're also talking to
the dad or the mom who's listening, who's trying to,
you know, get their kids to to sign up for
the program and, and to be believers for the long term.
(29:09):
And the kids are looking at the lives of that
mom and dad, aren't they?
S2 (29:14):
Right. Yeah. They're watching. I tell pastors, people will watch
your marriage long before they listen to what you will
say and to see how you treat your wife, how
you treat your children. Because if you do not treat
the people you say you love, well, then you're probably
not going to treat me well. Um, so. But but
the most of us make the mistake. And, Chris, you
(29:37):
and I have both been guilty of this, of thinking
that working for Jesus is the same thing as being
with Jesus. And it's not.
S1 (29:48):
Why?
S2 (29:49):
Um, because there has to be that that personal, ongoing connection, um,
of of of him flowing into you and his life
being lived, um, through you and out of you, into
the lives of the other people. Um, but ministers don't explode.
(30:14):
We implode, and the pressure on the outside becomes greater
than the pressure on the inside, because we're not constantly
filling ourselves with the presence of Christ and the Spirit
of Christ. And then the world crushes us out of that.
S1 (30:28):
And and that's a good thing for those who are listening,
who are in the pew, pray for your pastor or pastors, right?
S2 (30:38):
All the time.
S1 (30:39):
Because of these pressures and because of these struggles and
because of the the possibility of just getting busy and
calling it good. Right?
S2 (30:48):
Yeah. And the enemy, the enemy targets us leaders, because
if you bring them the leader, then you can affect
those who follow that leader. You know, as you say,
there are a lot of people now rethinking their own
life because somebody that they admired has now slipped. Bingo.
And they're beginning to doubt their own. You know, if
he can't do it, maybe I can't do it.
S1 (31:10):
Isn't this what working out your salvation really is? It's
salvation is a point in time. You know, it's a
a something that happens in the heart. If you're born again,
it happens, but it happens every day for the believer
where you say, okay, because of this salvation, here's how
I'm going to choose to live today.
S2 (31:31):
Right? And it's that daily, that sanctification process of being
daily remade into the image of Christ and to the
likeness of Christ, uh, less of us, more of him. Yes.
S1 (31:44):
You. You tell a story.
S2 (31:46):
Yes, it is a painful process, which is most people
don't get that serious about it because, uh, you know, uh,
you get mad at somebody and you're mad because they
hurt your feelings, because they questioned your identity and your
purpose and your giftedness, and, uh, and then you want
to go, you know, try to forgive that person. And
that's a difficult process.
S1 (32:08):
And that takes me to the, uh, the quote that you,
your counselor friend of yours, said, most people just want
to get rid of the pain. They don't want to
get well. And I think that describes a lot of
people listening right now. And one of them who's behind
this microphone, it's like take the pain away. I don't
want this anymore. You know, just just do you know,
(32:29):
you did this for the blind guy. You did this
for the lame man. His friends, the paralytic was let
down in the middle, and he got up and picked
up his mat and walked away. Why? Why won't you
do that for me?
S2 (32:43):
Because Jesus is interested in healing, not the removal of pain.
And there's a difference. Uh, and that's why the world
offers so many, uh, opiates and and distractions to keep
your mind off the pain. Well, sometimes the pain is
the way the body tells you you need to pay
(33:05):
attention to something. Uh, if you have a pain in
your body, it's usually because. Something you need to pay
attention to something. And if you hide the pain, you're
missing the message.
S1 (33:17):
And isn't this why we're so addicted to our phones
and the internet and everything that's there? It's a distraction
that takes.
S2 (33:25):
Away the pain. We don't have to think. I don't
have to think. I can just, you know, look at
another dancing cat video.
S1 (33:33):
And you don't watch dancing cats, do you?
S2 (33:37):
Yeah. No.
S1 (33:41):
Um, what's the difference between wishing and wanting?
S2 (33:47):
Oh, gosh. Learned that from a friend of mine playing golf. And, uh, I, uh,
hit my golf ball, and it went somewhere, and, uh,
he started laughing at me. Well, you know, golf, you
don't laugh at each other. You say tough shot will
find the ball something, you know, some kind of encouragement,
but you don't laugh. He laughed at me and I said,
(34:07):
why are you laughing? He said, I'm laughing at you.
I said, why are you laughing at me? He said,
you don't do anything in your swing. To make the
ball do what you want it to do. He said,
you just kind of stand up here and wish. You know,
and and that was the day I learned the difference
between wishing and wanting. Wishing means I'd like for something
(34:28):
to happen, but I'm not going to do anything to
make it happen. Wanting means I want this. I'd like
for this to happen, and I'm going to do the
necessary things. You know, I want to go to med school.
What's your grade point average one four. You're not going
to med school. You know you're wishing. Yes. Okay, now
(34:48):
I want to be more like Christ. Okay. What are
you doing to make that happen? And this is not
rocket science. I mean, everybody knows in order to do that,
then one, you should read the Bible daily. You should
be involved in your prayer life. You should be involved
in some kind of small group with other believers, uh,
(35:10):
who are holding you accountable. And when I mean holding
you accountable, holding you accountable to your best self. Um,
not not that the jumping in your grill all the time,
but they're saying to you, we know who you are,
and this behavior doesn't match who we know you to be.
Holding you accountable to your best self and then some
(35:31):
kind of ministry. Uh, because there are some things we
learn only in obedience. Uh, you know, you can watch
a video on changing a tire, but until you get
out there and try to find your tire tool in
the trunk, you're not going to be able to change
a tire. Some things are only learned in the doing.
S1 (35:51):
But this is where I go back to that analogy
you gave about being a swimmer and being able to float,
to relax and float. Because I think a lot of Christian,
the Christian life in a lot of ways is I'm
going to pull myself up by my bootstraps. I'm going
to kick that habit. I'm going to do this on
(36:12):
my own, in my own strength. We wouldn't say it
that way, but that's what we think that we're going
to do this. And then if it doesn't happen, then, well,
I just didn't try hard enough, you know? I didn't
pray enough faith.
S2 (36:25):
Yeah.
S1 (36:25):
Right. Yeah.
S2 (36:26):
Mhm. Mhm. Um, the interesting thing, uh, in this process is.
We think work should be hard. Uh, and one of
the reasons people have a hard time understanding their own
giftedness is because it comes easily to them. Uh, you know,
(36:49):
you can imagine being here in Nashville. I know some
very gifted musicians, and they will play. And I will say, man,
that was amazing what you did. And they will shrug
and say, anybody can do that. And it infuriates me, uh,
because I know one person, but because it's a gift
to them, they do not see the difficulty in it.
And we think that following Christ should have has to
(37:12):
be some kind of of great struggle. And I'm climbing
this mountain and all of that when it is a
gift and Christ has gifted you in certain ways. So
he wants to for you and me to work with
Him and His Kingdom ministry throughout the world. And when
(37:35):
you're in that groove, uh, you know, it comes easily.
It comes naturally because this is what you were born for.
This is what you were gifted for.
S4 (37:47):
And that's where the joy.
S1 (37:48):
Comes from, isn't.
S5 (37:49):
It? That's where the joy comes in.
S2 (37:52):
Uh, because this is this is fun. Uh, you know,
nobody has more fun than I do. And, uh, working
with pastors and local churches and and watching them grab
hold of who they are in Christ and the in
the vision that Christ has for their community.
S6 (38:10):
Yeah, but there's a lot of heartache. There's a lot
of tears. There's a lot of there's a story that
you tell.
S1 (38:15):
And when we come back, I want you to tell
this story in the book, preaching in a Post-truth world
by Mike Glenn. It's our featured resource today at Chris fabric.org.
I want every pastor to get a copy of this,
but I want people in the pew to be exposed
to it as well. As we're talking with him here today,
you have to hear this story coming straight ahead on
Moody Radio online. Chris Fabry live dot. Mike Glenn is with.
S6 (38:48):
Us.
S1 (38:48):
Today at the radio backyard fence. Preaching in a post-truth
world is our featured resource Recentering the pulpit in a
chaotic world. There's so much in here that I want
to convey. I want to get to two things before
we end, though. And one is I have been really
interested in the people that I get to talk with
and and what, what books, you know, affect them. But
(39:11):
what films changed them? And I remember Doctor Winifred Neeley
told me one time here about his mother taking him
as a young boy, African American boy in Chicago, lived
in the Ida B Wells homes, took him to see
Sidney Poitier in In the Heat of the night, which
(39:31):
I don't think a little kid should see, you know,
thinking about it now. But he said it just changed
his life. There was something that happened to him when
he saw that movie. You know, a person who looked
like him up there on the screen, number one. But
there was a movie that you saw and it's from 1962,
so it's kind of giving your age away. Mike.
S2 (39:52):
Yeah, I was a kid.
S1 (39:53):
Yeah, it's got Jackie Gleason in it. It's it's GIGO,
t GIGO and, uh, that movie had a big impact
on you.
S2 (40:03):
Yeah, Yeah. It's a story of, uh, of a of
a deaf mute janitor who, uh, finds his mother and
child hiding out of the weather, uh, and, uh, in
Paris and takes takes them into his little apartment. And
in one of the scenes, he takes the little girl
(40:23):
to church and tries to explain to her what this
church is and what the holy water is about, and
that kind of stuff. And when he gets frustrated, he
begins to hit himself in the face. Uh, and uh,
the more and more I have been in ministry, the
more I have thought about that one scene of how
frustrated I am. Uh, the number of times I don't
(40:46):
have words to say what I want to say, or
I can't communicate it the way I want to. And
I end up just like Jackie Gleason, wanting to pound
myself in the face because I'm so frustrated that I
can't say what I want to say.
S1 (41:02):
But you keep going.
S4 (41:04):
And you keep.
S2 (41:04):
Oh, gosh. Yeah.
S4 (41:05):
You keep trying to find.
S2 (41:07):
Find another way to say it. Another story to tell. Uh,
but sometimes to know what you know and then not
be able to say it is very, very frustrating.
S4 (41:18):
Yes.
S2 (41:18):
And and then, you know, the culture changes and all that.
Then you got to find another way to say it,
because what worked yesterday doesn't work today. Um, but that's
part of the fun and part of the challenge.
S4 (41:28):
So there's this.
S1 (41:31):
Story that you tell in the book about leading a
class and, and asking the people in the class to
write a letter to their fathers.
S4 (41:41):
Mhm.
S1 (41:42):
And, um, you say that this was a moment that
changed your life. It changed your ministry. Tell me about.
S4 (41:48):
That.
S5 (41:48):
Yeah.
S2 (41:49):
Um, we were doing a thing called Kairos when it
was young adults, and we had come to a point
where I realized that a lot of them were stuck
because of their dads. Uh, when you introduced and said,
God loves you like a dad. For a lot of them.
It messed them up because their relationship with their dad
was toxic. So we had to stop and talk a
lot for several weeks about what your relationship with your
(42:11):
dad meant. So one night they showed up and I
handed them envelopes and paper and pens and I said,
you're going to write your dad. I said, I don't
care if you write. I don't want to hate you anymore.
If that's all you got, that's all you got. And
this one girl waited until she knew she was last.
And she handed me a blank piece of paper and said.
My dad started abusing me when I was seven years old.
(42:34):
What do I write? Uh, and it it blew me
out of the water. And I realized, uh, I don't know, Chris.
I had understood the level of pain that was sitting
out on every pew and and on every chair. And
I remember walking out to the car after that conversation
just telling myself, hang on, do you get to the car?
(42:57):
And I fell apart in the car And, uh, the
prayer I had was, I don't know what to do.
I don't know what to say. I don't know how
to do this. But if you will show me, I
promise you I will do it or die trying. And, uh.
And that became a moment of clarification for me when
I realized the pain that's sitting out there every week
(43:19):
that is just desperate to hear the good news of
the love of Jesus that he has for him right now. Yeah.
S4 (43:26):
What did she.
S1 (43:26):
Wind up writing? Anything on that paper?
S5 (43:30):
Uh, yeah.
S2 (43:30):
She wrote her dad, and she says you've never asked,
but I forgive you anyway. And that was her letter.
S4 (43:41):
And.
S1 (43:41):
And forgiveness. There's another subject, you know, that a lot
of people in the pew are dealing with. What does
that look like? Because for many, they think of forgiveness
has to be reconciliation.
S4 (43:52):
No, no.
S2 (43:53):
Not at all. Forgiveness is releasing the other person from
the expectation they can fix what they did. Okay. If,
like I said, I've been married 45 years, that's long
enough for me to say something that hurt Jeannie's feelings.
I say, I'm sorry. She believes me. But the hurt
that I put in her life is still there. Only
(44:15):
Christ can go there and heal that. So I can apologize,
but I can't heal it. I can't fix it. And so, Chris,
if you say something to me that hurts me, and
you say, Mike, I'm really sorry, and I forgive you,
and I do forgive you. I've got to do something
with the pain. And what you and I need to know.
(44:35):
As believers, we take that pain to Christ and say,
this is where I was. This is what happened. This
is what was said, and this is why I'm hurt.
And then Christ heals. That hurt. But you can't or
I can't. And forgiveness is just releasing you from the expectation.
You can fix it because you can't.
S4 (44:52):
And you know.
S1 (44:53):
The struggle I think most people have, Mike, is that
they feel like when they forgive, you know, they express forgiveness,
and then that comes up in their mind again. They think, well,
I haven't forgiven. I'm not. I'm back to square one.
S5 (45:07):
It's like a spiral.
S2 (45:08):
We want it to be a staircase. Deal with it.
Move on. Deal with it, move on. It's like a spiral.
You keep coming back to the same question, but as
a deeper level.
S4 (45:17):
Yes.
S1 (45:18):
So in that sense, you're working out your forgiveness with.
With fear and trembling.
S4 (45:22):
Just like you know.
S1 (45:24):
Your salvation as well. Um, what you're saying here is true.
It's it's good. There's another section where you write, most
of us haven't mined our own stories for the great
truths that are hidden so close to our own hearts.
We take our faith for granted. We've been like this
most of our lives, and now it's part of our
(45:45):
daily routine. We know what we know. We know what
we believe. And yet, when the moment opens in a
conversation with a friend, we don't know what to say.
So that that quote that I said about swimming and
relaxing and allow God to do something in you as
well as the other person, whether you're a pastor or
you're just sitting down with coffee over a coffee with
some friend. Uh, this is really good stuff. Mike, thank
(46:08):
you for sharing your heart with us today.
S2 (46:09):
It's always an honor. Great to talk to you.
S1 (46:12):
If you go to the website Chris. Org, you'll see
Mike Glenn two N's on Glenn. Mike Glenn's book preaching
in a Post-truth world Recentering the pulpit in a Chaotic World.
You'll find that at Chris Fabry, Dot and I hope
you'll come back and have a conversation with us tomorrow
(46:33):
about your dad. When you think of your dad, what
comes to mind? We're going to talk about that right
here on Chris Fabry live production of Moody Radio, a
ministry of Moody Bible Institute. Thanks for listening.
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