March 25, 2025 • 46 mins
Author, radio host, former pastor and seminary professor, and founder of Key Life Network Steve Brown returns. He's joining us for a "voices of wisdom" conversation. In all of his years of ministry and teaching and doing life, what has he learned that he wants to pass along to us? Don't miss the heart and voice of Steve Brown on Chris Fabry Live.
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Episode Transcript
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S1 (00:05):
Today at the radio backyard fence. The man who encourages
you to think about that returns. The golden voice will
be heard. He's a radio host, author, former pastor, seminary professor,
founder of Key Life Networks. Steve Brown will be in
the house for an hour today and I oh, I
have been looking forward to this conversation. This is part
(00:26):
of our continuing Voices of Wisdom series. So if you
have a question for this seasoned saint, if you are
flummoxed about life, he is available to you today. At
the back fence. You'll find all of our contact information
at the website. Chris Fabry Give.org. Let me thank our
team behind the scenes. Ron McConaughey doing all things technical.
(00:46):
Tricia is away for the week to here is in
the chair. Gabetti will answer your calls. What do you
do as you listen to this program? Maybe right now
you're driving. Are you listening while you work? A lot
of people are listening. I get response from people who
hear the stream or the podcast later on, and Gail
said this. She gave a gift today to keep us going,
(01:08):
to keep the back fence up. And she said, I
listened to your podcasts in the evening after I've settled
down and am relaxing with a needlework project. I appreciate
your choices of subjects and guests. I always know I'll
be blessed. Thanks for your faithfulness. Gail, thank you for
modeling a settled down life and a generous heart. We
so appreciate your gift and as our thank you, this month,
(01:31):
we're going to send Gail a copy of a book
that I didn't even know existed until a few months ago.
Dan Jacobson was looking through his grandfather's files, and he
found a series of devotions about how to let the
Bible transform you. Not just behavior modification, but let the
word transform you from the inside out. It was published
in October. It's beautiful hardback book that Dan edited for
(01:55):
his granddad, Doctor Warren Wiersbe I am so excited to
send this lost manuscript to you, but you have to hurry.
March is leaving us. Call or click through today if
you can give a gift of any size. 866 95
Faber is the number or the website Chris Fabry live.org.
Becoming new is this title from Doctor Warren Wiersbe. Reach
(02:18):
out today if you can. (866) 953-2279 or Chris Fabry live.org.
And Gail I hope that needlework is going well. Thank
you friend. Steve Brown's a radio broadcaster, founder of Key
Life Network, former pastor, also a frequent in-demand speaker, visiting
(02:39):
seminary lecturer. He does everything. He's the author of a
bunch of books, How to Talk So People Will Listen,
Three Free Sins, Hidden Agendas Talk, The Walk, and the
featured resource today is Laughter and Lament the radical freedom
of joy and sorrow.
S2 (02:56):
Steve, how are you? I'm doing very good. And, Chris,
you're very fortunate to have me. And that's not because
I'm so smart or spiritual. It's because I'm so old.
If you want to hear the truth, don't ask somebody
that's young. They have an agenda. Always ask an old person.
(03:20):
They'll tell you and they'll be honest. They may be wrong,
but they'll be sure. So you're fortunate to have put
me on in my old age.
S1 (03:31):
You have been playing old for most of your life, though.
Let's be honest about that.
S2 (03:36):
Well, that's because I've looked old all my life. I
was telling you off the air. I study, I was
the pastor at Key Biscayne Presbyterian in Miami, and I
was there for 20 years. And I said to the congregation,
I didn't look this way when I came here. So
(03:58):
you did this to me. And the good thing is,
I'm going to look this way till I die, and
you're going to turn old, and I'm going to watch. So.
And you're right. I've always looked old, but I've caught
up with it now. Chris. Yeah.
S1 (04:14):
You're you're doing well with, um. So 85. How's it feel?
You're born 1940, right before the war started. That's something that. Yeah.
You're probably too young to remember World War II, aren't you?
S2 (04:27):
Yeah, and I'm not. I'm almost. There's nothing I'm too
young to remember. I was too young to remember, but
that I don't remember. You know, I wasn't aware. I
remember the Korean War, uh, and I, and I remember
a lot of things. And in the 40s and 50s,
(04:49):
but not the war. Yeah.
S1 (04:52):
Uh, the reason I wanted to do this series. We
were going to call it Saints in Winter, and then
that didn't sound right. And so we've we've changed it
to Voices of Wisdom. But you read in, um, in
the Proverbs, the glory of young men is their strength.
The splendor of old men is gray hair, and gray
hair is a glorious crown. It's found in the way
(05:13):
of the righteous. Psalm 71 O God, from my youth
you have taught me, and I still proclaim your wondrous deeds.
So even to old age and gray hairs, O God,
do not forsake me until I proclaim your might to
another generation, your power to all those to come. And
in the devotional to that psalm that I have, it says,
(05:34):
this is a saint in winter. And what? That's so
that's why I wanted to have you on here. And
just to ask you a bunch of questions about life
and about disappointments, um, about the age in which we
live and or what you're going through right now. How
are you doing at being 85. Are you okay with it?
S2 (05:55):
You know I shouldn't be, but I am, and I'm
not saying that to be spiritual. I really am doing good.
I'm very healthy. I swim 50 laps each day. I'm
not even thinking about retiring. Um, my staff are preparing
(06:16):
for DD day. That's the day I die or drool.
But I don't think that's going to happen today. And
my wife is healthy, and, uh, I, you know, I
do everything wrong, so I should be dead. But I'm
doing really good, and I feel really good. And that's
(06:39):
a gift from Jesus who likes me. Chris. More than
he likes you. So you be careful.
S1 (06:47):
Yes. And he's got he doesn't have any sense of
humor or sarcasm at all. So if you've never heard
Steve Brown before, it's just a warning. Now your wife
is Anna, if I recall correctly. Is that.
S2 (07:00):
Right? Yes. You do.
S1 (07:00):
Okay. What have you learned from her or how? What
is the biggest contribution to your life that you've had
from Anna, other than her putting up with you for
all these years?
S2 (07:11):
Well, wonderful daughters, of course, but she's been a rock
in my life. I'm mercurial. I get angry easily, I
cry easy. Um. I'm happy one minute and sad the
next minute. And God looked everywhere for just the right
(07:31):
woman to be my wife. And I'm married to a
woman who never changes. Uh, she, uh, is the same
yesterday and today and forever. And like a rock, um, solid,
I can depend on her, and that's been a major
(07:53):
gift in my life because my personality is the other
way around.
S1 (08:01):
How do you find somebody like that?
S2 (08:04):
Well, I'd like to say I prayed about it for
years and years that I, uh, uh, that God spoke.
It was the sound of a waterfall at first. And
then I heard his voice. Mariana. And I said, Who's Ana?
And he said, just wait. I'll bring her to you.
(08:26):
And that didn't happen that way. I it was by accident.
I was the president of student government at a college
I was attending. And, uh, that was no big deal.
There were only three of us, and one of us
had to be president. And I was welcoming the freshmen.
(08:46):
It was the junior college, And I was welcoming the
freshman class and, um, as the president of the student government,
and she was sitting on the front row and I went, wow.
And then backwards. Wow. And I made a point of
finding out who she was. And one thing led to another,
(09:10):
and I finally she was, by the way, engaged to
somebody else. But she had good taste because his name
was Brown. So she was halfway there anyway.
S1 (09:23):
Yes.
S2 (09:23):
And we've been married. Yeah, we've been married almost as
long as you've been alive, Chris. Really?
S1 (09:31):
60. When? What year were you married in then? 62.
S2 (09:35):
Yeah.
S1 (09:37):
Really? Yeah. 1962.
S2 (09:40):
What'd you say? 52.
S1 (09:41):
No. No 62.
S2 (09:43):
Yeah. 62. 61. 62.
S1 (09:46):
Okay. We had a bigger year.
S2 (09:49):
Our grandchildren and daughters, uh, for our 50th anniversary, um,
gave us a choice. We could have a big celebration,
or we could go on a Disney cruise, uh, with
our daughters and granddaughters and their families. And I thought,
(10:12):
you know, I don't want to go on a cruise
that's about as close as the second level of whole
Hell of Dante. But at least it's going to be
over in a week. The other thing, I'm going to
be involved in it for weeks. So we went on
a cruise and it was a wonderful 50th anniversary. I'm
(10:36):
not big on Disney, but it was passable. And, uh,
you survived. I complained about it one time when I
was preaching at a large church in Atlanta, and a
woman came up, had her little girl with her, and
she said, Doctor Brown, I my daughter wants to say
(10:58):
something to you. And I said, okay. And I knelt
down and she was 5 or 6 years old. And
she said, Mr. Brown, if you if you'll let your
little boy come out, you'll have a good time on
that cruise. And it was so cute and so right on.
(11:18):
I've kind of taken it as my slogan for life. Yeah.
Let the little boy come out sometimes.
S1 (11:25):
Ooh, boy, that'll preach. Let the little boy with the
five loaves and the two fish come out. And that's
Steve Brown. I want to take your calls today. You
have a question? You have a comment for Steve? (877) 548-3675.
Go to the website. We have some links there. Featured
resource about laughter and lament. Let's go to Chris Fabry
(11:48):
live for more with the man Steve Brown straight ahead
on Moody Radio. He's one of my favorite people on
the planet. Steve Brown is our guest at the Radio
Backyard Fence. If you've never heard him before, where have
(12:09):
you been? Laughter and lament. We talked about this a
couple years ago, the radical freedom of joy and sorrow.
But he's written so many different books. I interviewed Steve
S was 86 or 7 or somewhere in the 1980s,
and the very first time that I had Steve on,
I literally fell off my chair laughing because of something
(12:31):
he said on the on the air. And I it
was just it was just it happened in the moment.
And Steve said, Chris, now get up off the floor.
S2 (12:40):
And I did it ever since.
S1 (12:42):
Yes we have. Um, but you said something to me
the next time. The next time you had something come
out and you came into the studio, he said, you
looked at me and you said, now don't you try
to do what we did last time. That was that.
That was one time. We can't. We're not going to
replicate that. Just just let it be what it will be.
And I've always thought about that. It was very good
(13:04):
advice about, you know, doing the kind of thing that
we do here as well as, you know, pastor preaching
a message or just being with a friend. You can't
try to replicate something that just happens in that moment. Right?
S2 (13:20):
I agree that is so wise. And it applies to
all of life too, doesn't it, Chris. Yeah, yeah, it does,
because God gives us serendipitous moments and bursts of grace
and mercy, and we always want to do it again, Lord.
And God says, I don't replicate those things, but I'll
(13:42):
give you something new. And he continues to do that. Yeah.
S1 (13:47):
If you could go back and change something in your life.
Very small. I remember asking Doctor Swindell this one time
about some decision. What was the worst decision you made?
And he immediately said, I bought an RV. He said,
I knew as soon as I drove it off the
lot that I was going to take it back, because
(14:09):
there was no way we were going to do this.
But but maybe maybe there's something, you know. Is there
anything that you would change about your life knowing that
God is sovereign? Of course.
S2 (14:20):
Of course. This is going to sound very spiritual, and
I don't mean it to do that, but I don't
think I'd change anything I there. I have a lot
of regrets. I have a number of things I wish
I'd done differently, and there are people I've offended that
I wish I hadn't. People I've hurt. I wish I
(14:42):
had not done that. I wish I'd been more careful
with my words. I wish I had prayed more, studied more.
But looking back, because I'm reformed, um, and I honestly
believe every bit of that. And by the way, Chris,
(15:05):
that includes my sin. I didn't surprise God with that,
that every bit of that was under the control of
a sovereign God who knew exactly what he was doing,
why he was doing it, and how I needed whatever
it was at the time. Now I go back and
(15:28):
I'd make a lot of decisions differently. But the truth is,
if I could go back and do it again, I
probably would have messed it up worse than I did.
So when I'm old, I look back. And sometimes at
night before I go to sleep, I. I've always said
I'm not into nostalgia until I got old. Well, I'm
(15:52):
old and I look back and I have those memories.
Some good, some bad. Some caused me to wince and
some caused me to laugh. And I go to sleep
sometimes at night, thanking God for all that he allowed
and caused and permitted in my life. And I know
(16:15):
that sounds really religious, and I don't mean it to
because I struggle with that. If I had to do
over again, I'd be more religious. But but that's really true.
I don't think I'd change a thing.
S1 (16:32):
You mentioned sin. My sin. Oh, the bliss of this
glorious thought. my sin? Not in part, but the whole
is nailed to the cross, and I bear it no more.
Praise the Lord, praise the Lord, O my soul.
S2 (16:48):
O man, somebody! But there's a hymn out of that.
S1 (16:51):
I think so. And you sing the third verse. But
what you just said, though, you said that God was
in control even of your sins. So there's somebody listening saying,
Steve Brown believes that God made him sin, made Steve
sin in certain ways.
S2 (17:10):
Well, you didn't listen. Let me tell you something. Uh,
and I'm not talking to anybody who's not a sinner.
And you're not either. Except maybe you, Chris. Yes. Maybe me.
I'm ordained, but everybody, this is a universal problem. And
(17:30):
let me tell you something that's really important. Wisdom from
the old guy. Your sin and your failure and your
weakness is the best gift that God ever gave you.
If you know it, and your obedience and your righteousness
and your successes are your most dangerous places, if you
(17:56):
know that because power is made perfect in weakness. And
I didn't make that up, God said it.
S1 (18:06):
And you can you can go to the bank with that, too.
All right. Here's Bill in Boynton Beach, Florida. Bill, you're
on with Steve. Go ahead.
S3 (18:13):
Hi. Thank you very much. I'm actually getting emotional sitting
here listening to Steve, because it's been a couple of years, honestly,
since I've listened to to you regularly. But, um, years ago,
you wrote a book called Scandalous Freedom, and another one
that I think was called things I Learned After I
Knew It All or something like that. And those books
were so helpful to me early in my Christian life.
(18:36):
I remember one specific thing. I'm a recovering Pharisee, as
you like to say often, but you were talking about
how you were with a group of men, a prayer group,
guys you met with every week, and you would pray
for missionaries and everything. And I remember you wrote in
your book that one day you got honest with them
and said, you know what, guys? I don't really have
a heart for the for the lost people in these
(18:57):
other countries. And they kind of said, yeah, me and you.
So you quit trying to pretend. And the whole point
of it was you were talking about the danger of
pretending and wearing masks. And that was so helpful. So helpful.
S2 (19:10):
Oh, man.
S3 (19:10):
And then and then.
S2 (19:11):
I remember saying, could I call you occasionally and ask
you to repeat that?
S3 (19:17):
But one other thing. You said I never got any better.
I never really got better until I quit trying to
be good, until I quit trying to be better. I'm
not saying it right, but the gist of it is
when your focus is on your own efforts, you just
never saw much victory. But when you put your eyes
on Jesus and quit looking at yourself. And anyway, I
just wanted to thank you for that. And it's and
(19:39):
it's reminded me I've lost some of that. You taught
me that at one time, and you're reminding me of
it by being on the show today. And I thank
you so much for that. We did go. See you,
my wife and I, at Boca Raton Community Church years ago.
Back around that time you spoke, I think it was
at Boca Raton. But anyway, thank you so much for
your ministry and for how clearly you speak about just
the freedom that that Christ died to give us.
S2 (20:02):
Mhm. Oh, listen, thank you so much. You made the
old guys day. Yeah.
S1 (20:11):
You know the thing that I remember from you Steve,
is that constant drumbeat. Every time you came on you'd say,
God's not mad at you. God's not mad at you.
And and finally, after about the 50th time you said it,
I started to understand what you meant and started to
(20:31):
believe it, you know, as, as a as a follower
of Jesus, as somebody who's been bought to believe that
God is not looking at you with furrowed brow anymore.
There's a freedom in that, isn't there?
S2 (20:45):
Oh, incredible freedom. I when I learned that I was
a young pastor and I thought he was, I really did.
I know I knew the places I was pretending, I
knew the sins I had. I knew all the dark
side of me. And every time I prayed, it was
(21:08):
with fear because I thought God was a consuming fire.
And he is. You can't ever forget that side of God.
But for the Christian, uh, because of the imputed righteousness
of Christ to our lives and the sufficient blood sacrifice
(21:29):
of Christ, God will never, ever, ever be angry at
us again. And and knowing that is an incredible freedom.
And not only that, and from our caller, what he
said was so true. We try so hard to please
(21:51):
an angry God. And we think if he if we
find out he's not angry, we'll quit trying to please him. Chris.
The opposite happens when you know that you're motivated by
his kindness. Paul said when you understand his unconditional love, man,
(22:13):
you never met a man who wants to please God
more than I do. And I might say, you never
met a man who messes it up more than I do.
But my heart and your heart. Chris too, is such
that more than anything, we want to do what God
(22:36):
wants us to do.
S1 (22:40):
If you let me let me turn a little corner there,
that's Steve Brown. Bill, thanks for your call today. I've
got some other folks who want to talk with you. (877) 548-3675.
Who in the Bible do you want to meet in
heaven and sit down and have a conversation with other
than Jesus? Who in the Bible do you want to
sit down and say, hey, I've read this about. And
(23:03):
what happened? Where? Who would that be?
S2 (23:06):
Oh, I've got so many questions I can't tell you.
There are a bunch in the Old Testament, but, you know,
I want to. I want to sit down with somebody
who knew Jesus and asked some questions. I used to say,
I'd like to spend time with Peter because he's as
messed up as I am, but I and I want
(23:28):
to listen to Paul lecture. But Chris, I changed. I
when you read Second Corinthians, the apostle Paul in his
confession also in the seventh chapter of Romans, the apostle
Paul is childlike. He is so human, so broken, that
(23:51):
I want to spend some time, maybe go fishing with
Peter and Paul. That would be a good thing.
S1 (23:58):
That's a good idea. We talked about Galatians yesterday and
the which is probably one of the first letters that
Paul wrote. And you can see in the how exasperated
he is with, you know, I'm amazed that you could
do that. How in the world, you know, basically is
what he's saying, how could you leave this faith and
go off and, and think that you're going to add
(24:21):
something to what Jesus has done for us? I just
just that incredulity I just jumped off the page at
me again.
S2 (24:29):
Oh, man. That was, by the way, Martin Luther's favorite book.
And if you want to read something that will absolutely
blow you away, read Martin Luther's introduction to the book
of Galatians. It's absolutely wonderful.
S1 (24:47):
Is that another person you'd like to meet from history?
Martin Luther?
S2 (24:52):
Yeah. Yeah, I really would, uh, you know, Martin Luther, uh,
he's worse than I am. And and he knew it. Uh,
I love that in him. You know, there are a
lot of things you have to explain about Martin Luther.
(25:12):
Some of the places he went and some of the
things that he said. His anti-Semitism is horrible. Yes. Um,
but I'd like to spend time with him to. So
we can dance and sing and in before the throne
of God's grace. And we both will get it.
S1 (25:35):
You're listening to the voice of Steve Brown today at
the radio backyard fence. He is a voice of wisdom.
You have a question or a comment? Go ahead and
jump in. (877) 548-3675. More with Steve straight ahead on Moody Radio.
(26:04):
Chocolate with Steve Brown today. Hope you're enjoying the conversation.
I read a book last year about a hot political issue. Oh,
this is a hot biblical issue. I've seen arguments about
it online. I've seen gotcha conversations where one person gets
a zinger in and it shuts down the conversation. Have
you seen those? There are memes Seems about it, there
are bumper stickers, but it ground zero of the issue
(26:28):
of abortion is real. People struggling with moral and ethical
questions about life. And there's a beating heart in there.
To the president and CEO of Calnet, Rollin Warren knows
about that issue because he's been there. And in his book,
The Alternative to Abortion, he shows the goal for everyone
in the equation the unborn child, the pregnant mother, the
(26:50):
biological father, and all the people around them. Everyone needs
abundant life. If you click the green care net link
at Chris Fabry Live org, you'll see more about the
story that Rollin tells and why he's dedicated himself to
that pro abundant life perspective. If you haven't read it,
or if you've never heard about it, go to Chris Fabry. Archive.org.
(27:13):
Click the Green Care Net button today and you'll see
more about the alternative to abortion with Steve Brown. Here
is Drew in Tennessee. Hi, drew. Go right ahead.
S4 (27:28):
Hey. Thank you all for taking my call, Chris. You're awesome. Um,
I just want to see Mr. Brown, how you have
dealt with anger in your life. And what advice would
you give to the 45 year old? You trying to
hold a family together?
S1 (27:47):
Mhm.
S2 (27:49):
Well, I, uh, being older helps a lot and Jesus
helps a lot. I there are certain principles that I
have learned and don't always follow. Um, the people with
whom I'm angry. Uh, I've asked God to let me
(28:11):
listen to their hearts instead of their words or even
their actions. And by and large, God has done that. Um,
I've tried to remember, uh, how often God has forgiven
me and love me when I didn't deserve it. And
(28:31):
you can't love until you've been loved. And you can
only love to the degree to which you have been loved.
And so I'm learning to love some people that I
have in the past thought of as being enemies. But
one thing you got to be careful about, too, and
Chris mentioned this in a book that I wrote, No
(28:55):
more Mr. Nice Guy. Being able to control a sinful, angry,
or anger doesn't mean that you become a wuss, or
that you not express your views, or that you don't
sometimes find yourself being angry for the right reasons, and
(29:18):
you got to ask God to let you know the
difference and to put a governor on you when it's
sin and a microphone on you when it's righteous. But
I struggle with it today, I still do. Somebody said
when I spit on the ground, the grass withers sometimes.
(29:41):
And I and an associate said to his senior pastor,
restrain your anger. And he said, son, you're looking at
more restrained anger than you've ever seen in your life
right now. So I struggle with it, and I probably
will until I die. But trust me, as an old guy,
(30:03):
I'm better. And that is Jesus. I'm not. There was
a time when I would have been described as an
angry young man. That's not my description. It's not my name.
It's not where I live anymore. And ask him by.
S1 (30:25):
The grace of God. Okay, so I want to ask
you a question, drew. When you said hold your family together,
what does that mean?
S4 (30:36):
It means when I lash out in anger, um, I
push them away, and it's. It's, uh. It's tough. It's
a thorn in my side. And, um, I just need
some extra guidance from. From older Christian men. Yeah, that's
a lot of us do.
S1 (30:55):
Well, and my my thought is, Steve, if if he's
lashing out in anger, it's probably not what is right
in front of him that he's angry about. There's something
that's going on on the inside that he may never have,
you know, doesn't realize that that's what's bubbling up. And
it just comes. It's, you know, these little fires come
in different areas. And until you uncover that, until you
(31:17):
are honest with yourself and somebody else. You don't. You're
not able to deal with that. Do you agree, Steve?
S2 (31:23):
That's so true and so wise. In fact, I would
suggest that the man who's calling find a very wise
Christian or counselor and sit down and begin to probe
where some of that's coming from. For instance, I'm an
adult child of an alcoholic and and there and a
(31:46):
number of other things. I my father was a single,
the son of a single mother and that, uh, child
of a with no father and nobody knew who the
father was. That's a generational thing. And that and some
(32:07):
other things, um, became one of the ways that I
began to see where my anger was coming from, and
the demons of anger, when they're brought into the light,
generally lose a lot of their power.
S1 (32:29):
I had Pat Morley on about a year ago. And
do you know, Pat, do you know?
S2 (32:35):
I do. I love him. He's a good friend.
S1 (32:37):
And drew, I want you to hang on. Is drew
still there? No. He's not. Okay. Okay. Um, I really
want to suggest that book to you that we talked
with Pat about because it did something in me, and
I have some of the same things. It sounds like
that that drew that you're talking about. I don't know
(32:59):
if anger control is a big thing with me, Steve.
I just want control over everything. And I'll. I'll scratch
and claw even, especially with financial stuff, you know? And
if I get overcharged or I get, uh, I buy
some bad hot dogs at the store. I'm back there
and getting my $5.52 because it's just like, this makes
(33:19):
me feel better, you know? And it's all about making
me feel better. And I realize, well, wait a minute,
that's the control thing. And I need I need to
deal with the control thing in my life more than anything.
And so getting in touch with that kind of deal,
I think, really helps, don't you?
S2 (33:37):
Oh, gosh. Yes, it really does. And Chris, ever since
I've known you and there are a lot of things
I love about you, but one is the unbelievable authenticity.
I hate that word. It's overused. But when you look
it up in the dictionary, your picture is there. I, uh,
(34:00):
I mean, you say things that I don't believe I'd say.
S1 (34:06):
Okay, so I found the book, and drew is back. Hey, drew,
are you there now?
S4 (34:11):
Yes, sir. Sorry.
S1 (34:12):
I'm going to. I'm going to tell you I'm going to. No, no,
you didn't do anything from broken boy to mended Man.
That is a book by Patrick Morley. And I want
you to to think about getting a copy of that
and going through it and then going through it with
another man or a group of men, because there's something
that's going on with that, and he's got the video
(34:34):
series and all that stuff with it, but it's from
Broken Boy to Mended Man and the anger thing in there.
He'll deal with some of that anger, but I don't
guarantee you that it's it's going to happen overnight. But
here's what I do guarantee you your desire to take
care of this, your desire to deal with it, not
(34:57):
to fix it. See, that's the other thing. You can't
fix this. This is something that God does in you
over time, as Steve said. But the desire that you
have to draw closer to your family instead of push
them away from you. I think that's a really good thing.
So I know you're driving and you can't write it down. Um,
(35:18):
but if you'll hang on, I'll have.
S4 (35:19):
To take over. Okay, good. Pulled over in a church
parking lot, and, uh, it's, uh, the church of the Nazarene,
so thank you all, whatever that is. But. Yeah, look
at that. I really appreciate y'all. Thank you.
S1 (35:33):
God bless you, friend.
S2 (35:34):
Book by Pat is extremely honest about his own journey. Yes.
S1 (35:41):
Yeah. And it goes it goes into, you know, what
happened to him as a kid and his vulnerability. You're
talking about authenticity. His vulnerability allows the reader to really
see what's going on in his life. Okay, I got
a bunch of other questions. We got some other folks
on the line. I got to bring up a friend
of yours, Tony Campolo. We'll talk about that and a
(36:05):
whole lot more. Steve Brown's with us at the radio.
Backyard fence, more straight ahead on Moody Radio. It's the
Lightning round with Steve. Brown today at the back fence.
(36:26):
I have to ask him about Tony Campolo. I have
to ask him about Warren Wiersbe. I told him I
was going to ask him about Warren Wiersbe when we
started the program. I never have, and then Larry called
in and I got to get to Larry in Florida. Hey, Larry,
what do you want to ask Steve?
S5 (36:39):
Okay, Steve, go back to when you were at Key Life.
Years ago in Campolo and Morley. All these names are
so familiar. I wanted you to recount briefly, if you could,
that wonderful story that touched all of us about your
humility and finding out that your voice, your deep voice,
went into laryngitis and you had to whisper. And if
(37:02):
you could just recount that briefly, your wit.
S2 (37:05):
And.
S5 (37:05):
Wisdom are twins just telling you. Steve. Your wit and
wisdom and deep depth of theology are a trilogy. And
I'm going to hang up and listen.
S6 (37:14):
All right, here we go.
S2 (37:16):
Chris, I was speaking for a conference of some people
I wanted to impress, and I thought they were very
fortunate to have me. When the plane landed in the
city where I was speaking, my voice disappeared. Now, I
don't know if you've noticed, but my voice is better
than yours. In fact, it is a great voice. And
(37:40):
I thought, you know, I gotta teach the Lord. You
can't do this to me. But my voice was gone
for four days, and every time I taught, I had
to whisper when I got on. And by the way,
God did some wonderful things. And when I got back
on the plane and the moment it took off, my
voice came back. So it was obviously God. And he
(38:04):
was saying to me, it's not your voice. And it's
certainly not your looks. It's me. So thank me for
what I did without your voice. And I did, and
it was I don't want. I said, please don't do
that to me again, though.
S1 (38:25):
You don't need to learn it again. Okay, so here's the.
S2 (38:27):
Other lesson again.
S1 (38:29):
The other thing I was going to ask you about,
Warren Wiersbe, because we're given this great book away, Becoming New. Um,
did you meet Doctor Wiersbe? Did you ever have contact
with him?
S2 (38:39):
Yes, I did, and I, I was, uh, he's a
hero of mine, and and, uh, man, he absolutely would
say things that others wouldn't say. Sometimes they were hurtful.
And in ways he was a prophet. And I admired
(39:01):
him from the distance. And when I shook hands with him,
I didn't wash my hand for a week. And that
new book they found. I gotta get it. I bet
it's great.
S6 (39:14):
It is.
S1 (39:15):
We're going to send you a copy. Becoming new, if
you'll give me your address. If you give me your
phone number and address, I'll sell that online. Steve, just
for you. Okay. Uh, okay. We've come to Tony Campolo
because I love, you know, it's Friday, but Sunday's coming.
It's Friday, but Sunday's coming. I learned that, you know,
I heard that message years and years ago, and then
(39:38):
it felt like Tony Campolo went, you know, a little
different way theologically. And there were some things, but you
were friends with him and you did programs with him
even though you disagreed with him. And so my question
to you, and now that he's passed away, my question
to you is, how do you how do you stay
friends with somebody that you disagree with? And is that
(39:58):
an important thing to do?
S2 (40:00):
That's why we did that syndicated talk show on television
because we wanted to demonstrate how two guys who disagree
about everything but love Jesus can love each other. And Chris,
I loved him a lot. Uh, I didn't agree with
hardly anything. We were going, how are we doing time wise?
(40:23):
Can I tell you a story?
S6 (40:24):
Yeah. Let's do it. You got.
S1 (40:26):
Six minutes.
S2 (40:27):
Okay. I, um, we had scheduled a debate here in
Orlando at the Orlando Health place, and, uh, two months
before that debate was to take place, Tony came out
and affirming homosexual marriage. And evidently, uh, a lot of people,
(40:54):
close friends, broke fellowship with him. They wouldn't speak with him.
And he called me and he said, Steve, uh, you know,
I love you. And I said, I know and I
love you, but it's just harder sometimes, he said. He said,
if you don't want to do this debate with me,
I'll understand. And I said, Tony, you're crazy. This is
(41:19):
just another one of your wacko views. We're friends, and
we're going to be friends until one of us dies
and then for eternity. So don't give me this stuff.
Of course we're going to do the debate. And he
got emotional, and he passed the phone to Peggy, his wife,
(41:40):
and I said, how are you guys doing? And she said, well,
it's hard sometimes, but as long as we have friends
like you and there aren't, many will do, okay. And
then Chris, two days before he died, he called me, and, uh, I, uh,
(42:03):
I didn't know he knew. I think that he was
going to. We talked every 3 or 4 weeks, and
he said, Steve, I'm just calling to say hello and
say that I love you. And we talked for a
little bit, and it was a strange call. And then
I found out two days later he had died. And
so it was a goodbye call. There are two things
(42:28):
about Tony. The first is that now that he's in heaven,
finally his wacko political views are getting straightened out. But
it doesn't matter. And secondly, uh, I fully expect that
he's going to have a house up close to the
(42:49):
throne because he loved Jesus as much as anybody I've
ever known. And, uh, on a on the fun side
of it. He and I are both bald, and he
said we could moon America on our television program by
(43:10):
putting our heads together. And now I wouldn't say anything
like that, but that would be the kind of thing
Tony said. And Chris, I loved him a lot, and
I still disagree with a lot of stuff, but everybody
who belongs to Jesus belongs to everybody who belongs to Jesus.
(43:34):
And I miss Tony a lot.
S1 (43:38):
Do you know how his wife and how his family
is doing?
S2 (43:41):
I've talked to her a couple of times and it's
been very, very hard because she's had her own struggles,
but all things considered, she's doing really well.
S1 (43:55):
I'm so glad we got to have this time. And
now you can understand why I wanted to do it.
You know this seasoned saint or saints in winter or
voices of wisdom, whatever you want to say. Because I
think a lot of times when believers get older, we
kind of push them off to the side and say,
you know, go over there and do do the thing
(44:17):
over there when we need you more in the middle
of all of this, sharing with us and maybe even
saying things that we don't disagree with so we can
have the conversations and keep having them. So thanks for
doing that today.
S2 (44:32):
Hey you made. Thank you. That means a lot to me, Chris.
And you do too.
S1 (44:39):
When when was it hard for you to trust God
in your life? Was there ever a moment yesterday? Pop
into your yesterday. And what was it about? It was
about that that clock that went off a little bit ago.
S2 (44:55):
That what?
S6 (44:56):
No, no, no.
S1 (44:57):
What was it? What? When would you. Did you have
a hard time trusting God?
S2 (45:02):
Uh, I have a hard time trusting God. Um, I, uh,
I wrote a development letter for our ministry just yesterday,
and I had written a development letter a month before.
That was a panicked letter, and I apologized. And I
(45:23):
said to them, look, I preach. You gotta trust Jesus.
I don't live it very well. So please forgive that
last letter I sent you.
S6 (45:34):
That's good.
S2 (45:35):
I think we all struggle with that.
S6 (45:37):
Yeah.
S2 (45:38):
Uh, you know, I'm old. I'm cramming for finals. Uh,
the good news is I'm going to heaven. And the
bad news is, I'm going on Thursday, and that's hard
to trust God with that.
S6 (45:53):
Yes it is.
S2 (45:54):
It's his faith and not mine. and he holds me.
I don't hold him. So it's okay.
S6 (46:01):
Yeah.
S1 (46:03):
Your treasure. Steve. Keep doing what you're doing. Do your
laps today and come back and see us again real soon, okay?
S2 (46:11):
Hey. Thanks, Chris a lot.
S1 (46:13):
Steve Brown, author, broadcaster, founder of Key Life Network. Laughter
and Lament is our featured resource at Chris Fabry Live
the radical freedom of joy and sorrow. Hope this was
a balm to your soul today at the back fence
and a real help to you. Come on back tomorrow
for another conversation. Oh, it's going to be good. We're
(46:35):
going to talk about motherhood, mean girls and trauma right
here on Chris Fabry Live. A production of Moody Radio,
a ministry of Moody Bible Institute. Thanks a lot for listening.
Today at the radio backyard fence. The man who encourages
you to think about that returns. The golden voice will
be heard. He's a radio host, author, former pastor, seminary professor,
founder of Key Life Networks. Steve Brown will be in
the house for an hour today and I oh, I
have been looking forward to this conversation. This is part
(00:26):
of our continuing Voices of Wisdom series. So if you
have a question for this seasoned saint, if you are
flummoxed about life, he is available to you today. At
the back fence. You'll find all of our contact information
at the website. Chris Fabry Give.org. Let me thank our
team behind the scenes. Ron McConaughey doing all things technical.
(00:46):
Tricia is away for the week to here is in
the chair. Gabetti will answer your calls. What do you
do as you listen to this program? Maybe right now
you're driving. Are you listening while you work? A lot
of people are listening. I get response from people who
hear the stream or the podcast later on, and Gail
said this. She gave a gift today to keep us going,
(01:08):
to keep the back fence up. And she said, I
listened to your podcasts in the evening after I've settled
down and am relaxing with a needlework project. I appreciate
your choices of subjects and guests. I always know I'll
be blessed. Thanks for your faithfulness. Gail, thank you for
modeling a settled down life and a generous heart. We
so appreciate your gift and as our thank you, this month,
(01:31):
we're going to send Gail a copy of a book
that I didn't even know existed until a few months ago.
Dan Jacobson was looking through his grandfather's files, and he
found a series of devotions about how to let the
Bible transform you. Not just behavior modification, but let the
word transform you from the inside out. It was published
in October. It's beautiful hardback book that Dan edited for
(01:55):
his granddad, Doctor Warren Wiersbe I am so excited to
send this lost manuscript to you, but you have to hurry.
March is leaving us. Call or click through today if
you can give a gift of any size. 866 95
Faber is the number or the website Chris Fabry live.org.
Becoming new is this title from Doctor Warren Wiersbe. Reach
(02:18):
out today if you can. (866) 953-2279 or Chris Fabry live.org.
And Gail I hope that needlework is going well. Thank
you friend. Steve Brown's a radio broadcaster, founder of Key
Life Network, former pastor, also a frequent in-demand speaker, visiting
(02:39):
seminary lecturer. He does everything. He's the author of a
bunch of books, How to Talk So People Will Listen,
Three Free Sins, Hidden Agendas Talk, The Walk, and the
featured resource today is Laughter and Lament the radical freedom
of joy and sorrow.
S2 (02:56):
Steve, how are you? I'm doing very good. And, Chris,
you're very fortunate to have me. And that's not because
I'm so smart or spiritual. It's because I'm so old.
If you want to hear the truth, don't ask somebody
that's young. They have an agenda. Always ask an old person.
(03:20):
They'll tell you and they'll be honest. They may be wrong,
but they'll be sure. So you're fortunate to have put
me on in my old age.
S1 (03:31):
You have been playing old for most of your life, though.
Let's be honest about that.
S2 (03:36):
Well, that's because I've looked old all my life. I
was telling you off the air. I study, I was
the pastor at Key Biscayne Presbyterian in Miami, and I
was there for 20 years. And I said to the congregation,
I didn't look this way when I came here. So
(03:58):
you did this to me. And the good thing is,
I'm going to look this way till I die, and
you're going to turn old, and I'm going to watch. So.
And you're right. I've always looked old, but I've caught
up with it now. Chris. Yeah.
S1 (04:14):
You're you're doing well with, um. So 85. How's it feel?
You're born 1940, right before the war started. That's something that. Yeah.
You're probably too young to remember World War II, aren't you?
S2 (04:27):
Yeah, and I'm not. I'm almost. There's nothing I'm too
young to remember. I was too young to remember, but
that I don't remember. You know, I wasn't aware. I
remember the Korean War, uh, and I, and I remember
a lot of things. And in the 40s and 50s,
(04:49):
but not the war. Yeah.
S1 (04:52):
Uh, the reason I wanted to do this series. We
were going to call it Saints in Winter, and then
that didn't sound right. And so we've we've changed it
to Voices of Wisdom. But you read in, um, in
the Proverbs, the glory of young men is their strength.
The splendor of old men is gray hair, and gray
hair is a glorious crown. It's found in the way
(05:13):
of the righteous. Psalm 71 O God, from my youth
you have taught me, and I still proclaim your wondrous deeds.
So even to old age and gray hairs, O God,
do not forsake me until I proclaim your might to
another generation, your power to all those to come. And
in the devotional to that psalm that I have, it says,
(05:34):
this is a saint in winter. And what? That's so
that's why I wanted to have you on here. And
just to ask you a bunch of questions about life
and about disappointments, um, about the age in which we
live and or what you're going through right now. How
are you doing at being 85. Are you okay with it?
S2 (05:55):
You know I shouldn't be, but I am, and I'm
not saying that to be spiritual. I really am doing good.
I'm very healthy. I swim 50 laps each day. I'm
not even thinking about retiring. Um, my staff are preparing
(06:16):
for DD day. That's the day I die or drool.
But I don't think that's going to happen today. And
my wife is healthy, and, uh, I, you know, I
do everything wrong, so I should be dead. But I'm
doing really good, and I feel really good. And that's
(06:39):
a gift from Jesus who likes me. Chris. More than
he likes you. So you be careful.
S1 (06:47):
Yes. And he's got he doesn't have any sense of
humor or sarcasm at all. So if you've never heard
Steve Brown before, it's just a warning. Now your wife
is Anna, if I recall correctly. Is that.
S2 (07:00):
Right? Yes. You do.
S1 (07:00):
Okay. What have you learned from her or how? What
is the biggest contribution to your life that you've had
from Anna, other than her putting up with you for
all these years?
S2 (07:11):
Well, wonderful daughters, of course, but she's been a rock
in my life. I'm mercurial. I get angry easily, I
cry easy. Um. I'm happy one minute and sad the
next minute. And God looked everywhere for just the right
(07:31):
woman to be my wife. And I'm married to a
woman who never changes. Uh, she, uh, is the same
yesterday and today and forever. And like a rock, um, solid,
I can depend on her, and that's been a major
(07:53):
gift in my life because my personality is the other
way around.
S1 (08:01):
How do you find somebody like that?
S2 (08:04):
Well, I'd like to say I prayed about it for
years and years that I, uh, uh, that God spoke.
It was the sound of a waterfall at first. And
then I heard his voice. Mariana. And I said, Who's Ana?
And he said, just wait. I'll bring her to you.
(08:26):
And that didn't happen that way. I it was by accident.
I was the president of student government at a college
I was attending. And, uh, that was no big deal.
There were only three of us, and one of us
had to be president. And I was welcoming the freshmen.
(08:46):
It was the junior college, And I was welcoming the
freshman class and, um, as the president of the student government,
and she was sitting on the front row and I went, wow.
And then backwards. Wow. And I made a point of
finding out who she was. And one thing led to another,
(09:10):
and I finally she was, by the way, engaged to
somebody else. But she had good taste because his name
was Brown. So she was halfway there anyway.
S1 (09:23):
Yes.
S2 (09:23):
And we've been married. Yeah, we've been married almost as
long as you've been alive, Chris. Really?
S1 (09:31):
60. When? What year were you married in then? 62.
S2 (09:35):
Yeah.
S1 (09:37):
Really? Yeah. 1962.
S2 (09:40):
What'd you say? 52.
S1 (09:41):
No. No 62.
S2 (09:43):
Yeah. 62. 61. 62.
S1 (09:46):
Okay. We had a bigger year.
S2 (09:49):
Our grandchildren and daughters, uh, for our 50th anniversary, um,
gave us a choice. We could have a big celebration,
or we could go on a Disney cruise, uh, with
our daughters and granddaughters and their families. And I thought,
(10:12):
you know, I don't want to go on a cruise
that's about as close as the second level of whole
Hell of Dante. But at least it's going to be
over in a week. The other thing, I'm going to
be involved in it for weeks. So we went on
a cruise and it was a wonderful 50th anniversary. I'm
(10:36):
not big on Disney, but it was passable. And, uh,
you survived. I complained about it one time when I
was preaching at a large church in Atlanta, and a
woman came up, had her little girl with her, and
she said, Doctor Brown, I my daughter wants to say
(10:58):
something to you. And I said, okay. And I knelt
down and she was 5 or 6 years old. And
she said, Mr. Brown, if you if you'll let your
little boy come out, you'll have a good time on
that cruise. And it was so cute and so right on.
(11:18):
I've kind of taken it as my slogan for life. Yeah.
Let the little boy come out sometimes.
S1 (11:25):
Ooh, boy, that'll preach. Let the little boy with the
five loaves and the two fish come out. And that's
Steve Brown. I want to take your calls today. You
have a question? You have a comment for Steve? (877) 548-3675.
Go to the website. We have some links there. Featured
resource about laughter and lament. Let's go to Chris Fabry
(11:48):
live for more with the man Steve Brown straight ahead
on Moody Radio. He's one of my favorite people on
the planet. Steve Brown is our guest at the Radio
Backyard Fence. If you've never heard him before, where have
(12:09):
you been? Laughter and lament. We talked about this a
couple years ago, the radical freedom of joy and sorrow.
But he's written so many different books. I interviewed Steve
S was 86 or 7 or somewhere in the 1980s,
and the very first time that I had Steve on,
I literally fell off my chair laughing because of something
(12:31):
he said on the on the air. And I it
was just it was just it happened in the moment.
And Steve said, Chris, now get up off the floor.
S2 (12:40):
And I did it ever since.
S1 (12:42):
Yes we have. Um, but you said something to me
the next time. The next time you had something come
out and you came into the studio, he said, you
looked at me and you said, now don't you try
to do what we did last time. That was that.
That was one time. We can't. We're not going to
replicate that. Just just let it be what it will be.
And I've always thought about that. It was very good
(13:04):
advice about, you know, doing the kind of thing that
we do here as well as, you know, pastor preaching
a message or just being with a friend. You can't
try to replicate something that just happens in that moment. Right?
S2 (13:20):
I agree that is so wise. And it applies to
all of life too, doesn't it, Chris. Yeah, yeah, it does,
because God gives us serendipitous moments and bursts of grace
and mercy, and we always want to do it again, Lord.
And God says, I don't replicate those things, but I'll
(13:42):
give you something new. And he continues to do that. Yeah.
S1 (13:47):
If you could go back and change something in your life.
Very small. I remember asking Doctor Swindell this one time
about some decision. What was the worst decision you made?
And he immediately said, I bought an RV. He said,
I knew as soon as I drove it off the
lot that I was going to take it back, because
(14:09):
there was no way we were going to do this.
But but maybe maybe there's something, you know. Is there
anything that you would change about your life knowing that
God is sovereign? Of course.
S2 (14:20):
Of course. This is going to sound very spiritual, and
I don't mean it to do that, but I don't
think I'd change anything I there. I have a lot
of regrets. I have a number of things I wish
I'd done differently, and there are people I've offended that
I wish I hadn't. People I've hurt. I wish I
(14:42):
had not done that. I wish I'd been more careful
with my words. I wish I had prayed more, studied more.
But looking back, because I'm reformed, um, and I honestly
believe every bit of that. And by the way, Chris,
(15:05):
that includes my sin. I didn't surprise God with that,
that every bit of that was under the control of
a sovereign God who knew exactly what he was doing,
why he was doing it, and how I needed whatever
it was at the time. Now I go back and
(15:28):
I'd make a lot of decisions differently. But the truth is,
if I could go back and do it again, I
probably would have messed it up worse than I did.
So when I'm old, I look back. And sometimes at
night before I go to sleep, I. I've always said
I'm not into nostalgia until I got old. Well, I'm
(15:52):
old and I look back and I have those memories.
Some good, some bad. Some caused me to wince and
some caused me to laugh. And I go to sleep
sometimes at night, thanking God for all that he allowed
and caused and permitted in my life. And I know
(16:15):
that sounds really religious, and I don't mean it to
because I struggle with that. If I had to do
over again, I'd be more religious. But but that's really true.
I don't think I'd change a thing.
S1 (16:32):
You mentioned sin. My sin. Oh, the bliss of this
glorious thought. my sin? Not in part, but the whole
is nailed to the cross, and I bear it no more.
Praise the Lord, praise the Lord, O my soul.
S2 (16:48):
O man, somebody! But there's a hymn out of that.
S1 (16:51):
I think so. And you sing the third verse. But
what you just said, though, you said that God was
in control even of your sins. So there's somebody listening saying,
Steve Brown believes that God made him sin, made Steve
sin in certain ways.
S2 (17:10):
Well, you didn't listen. Let me tell you something. Uh,
and I'm not talking to anybody who's not a sinner.
And you're not either. Except maybe you, Chris. Yes. Maybe me.
I'm ordained, but everybody, this is a universal problem. And
(17:30):
let me tell you something that's really important. Wisdom from
the old guy. Your sin and your failure and your
weakness is the best gift that God ever gave you.
If you know it, and your obedience and your righteousness
and your successes are your most dangerous places, if you
(17:56):
know that because power is made perfect in weakness. And
I didn't make that up, God said it.
S1 (18:06):
And you can you can go to the bank with that, too.
All right. Here's Bill in Boynton Beach, Florida. Bill, you're
on with Steve. Go ahead.
S3 (18:13):
Hi. Thank you very much. I'm actually getting emotional sitting
here listening to Steve, because it's been a couple of years, honestly,
since I've listened to to you regularly. But, um, years ago,
you wrote a book called Scandalous Freedom, and another one
that I think was called things I Learned After I
Knew It All or something like that. And those books
were so helpful to me early in my Christian life.
(18:36):
I remember one specific thing. I'm a recovering Pharisee, as
you like to say often, but you were talking about
how you were with a group of men, a prayer group,
guys you met with every week, and you would pray
for missionaries and everything. And I remember you wrote in
your book that one day you got honest with them
and said, you know what, guys? I don't really have
a heart for the for the lost people in these
(18:57):
other countries. And they kind of said, yeah, me and you.
So you quit trying to pretend. And the whole point
of it was you were talking about the danger of
pretending and wearing masks. And that was so helpful. So helpful.
S2 (19:10):
Oh, man.
S3 (19:10):
And then and then.
S2 (19:11):
I remember saying, could I call you occasionally and ask
you to repeat that?
S3 (19:17):
But one other thing. You said I never got any better.
I never really got better until I quit trying to
be good, until I quit trying to be better. I'm
not saying it right, but the gist of it is
when your focus is on your own efforts, you just
never saw much victory. But when you put your eyes
on Jesus and quit looking at yourself. And anyway, I
just wanted to thank you for that. And it's and
(19:39):
it's reminded me I've lost some of that. You taught
me that at one time, and you're reminding me of
it by being on the show today. And I thank
you so much for that. We did go. See you,
my wife and I, at Boca Raton Community Church years ago.
Back around that time you spoke, I think it was
at Boca Raton. But anyway, thank you so much for
your ministry and for how clearly you speak about just
the freedom that that Christ died to give us.
S2 (20:02):
Mhm. Oh, listen, thank you so much. You made the
old guys day. Yeah.
S1 (20:11):
You know the thing that I remember from you Steve,
is that constant drumbeat. Every time you came on you'd say,
God's not mad at you. God's not mad at you.
And and finally, after about the 50th time you said it,
I started to understand what you meant and started to
(20:31):
believe it, you know, as, as a as a follower
of Jesus, as somebody who's been bought to believe that
God is not looking at you with furrowed brow anymore.
There's a freedom in that, isn't there?
S2 (20:45):
Oh, incredible freedom. I when I learned that I was
a young pastor and I thought he was, I really did.
I know I knew the places I was pretending, I
knew the sins I had. I knew all the dark
side of me. And every time I prayed, it was
(21:08):
with fear because I thought God was a consuming fire.
And he is. You can't ever forget that side of God.
But for the Christian, uh, because of the imputed righteousness
of Christ to our lives and the sufficient blood sacrifice
(21:29):
of Christ, God will never, ever, ever be angry at
us again. And and knowing that is an incredible freedom.
And not only that, and from our caller, what he
said was so true. We try so hard to please
(21:51):
an angry God. And we think if he if we
find out he's not angry, we'll quit trying to please him. Chris.
The opposite happens when you know that you're motivated by
his kindness. Paul said when you understand his unconditional love, man,
(22:13):
you never met a man who wants to please God
more than I do. And I might say, you never
met a man who messes it up more than I do.
But my heart and your heart. Chris too, is such
that more than anything, we want to do what God
(22:36):
wants us to do.
S1 (22:40):
If you let me let me turn a little corner there,
that's Steve Brown. Bill, thanks for your call today. I've
got some other folks who want to talk with you. (877) 548-3675.
Who in the Bible do you want to meet in
heaven and sit down and have a conversation with other
than Jesus? Who in the Bible do you want to
sit down and say, hey, I've read this about. And
(23:03):
what happened? Where? Who would that be?
S2 (23:06):
Oh, I've got so many questions I can't tell you.
There are a bunch in the Old Testament, but, you know,
I want to. I want to sit down with somebody
who knew Jesus and asked some questions. I used to say,
I'd like to spend time with Peter because he's as
messed up as I am, but I and I want
(23:28):
to listen to Paul lecture. But Chris, I changed. I
when you read Second Corinthians, the apostle Paul in his
confession also in the seventh chapter of Romans, the apostle
Paul is childlike. He is so human, so broken, that
(23:51):
I want to spend some time, maybe go fishing with
Peter and Paul. That would be a good thing.
S1 (23:58):
That's a good idea. We talked about Galatians yesterday and
the which is probably one of the first letters that
Paul wrote. And you can see in the how exasperated
he is with, you know, I'm amazed that you could
do that. How in the world, you know, basically is
what he's saying, how could you leave this faith and
go off and, and think that you're going to add
(24:21):
something to what Jesus has done for us? I just
just that incredulity I just jumped off the page at
me again.
S2 (24:29):
Oh, man. That was, by the way, Martin Luther's favorite book.
And if you want to read something that will absolutely
blow you away, read Martin Luther's introduction to the book
of Galatians. It's absolutely wonderful.
S1 (24:47):
Is that another person you'd like to meet from history?
Martin Luther?
S2 (24:52):
Yeah. Yeah, I really would, uh, you know, Martin Luther, uh,
he's worse than I am. And and he knew it. Uh,
I love that in him. You know, there are a
lot of things you have to explain about Martin Luther.
(25:12):
Some of the places he went and some of the
things that he said. His anti-Semitism is horrible. Yes. Um,
but I'd like to spend time with him to. So
we can dance and sing and in before the throne
of God's grace. And we both will get it.
S1 (25:35):
You're listening to the voice of Steve Brown today at
the radio backyard fence. He is a voice of wisdom.
You have a question or a comment? Go ahead and
jump in. (877) 548-3675. More with Steve straight ahead on Moody Radio.
(26:04):
Chocolate with Steve Brown today. Hope you're enjoying the conversation.
I read a book last year about a hot political issue. Oh,
this is a hot biblical issue. I've seen arguments about
it online. I've seen gotcha conversations where one person gets
a zinger in and it shuts down the conversation. Have
you seen those? There are memes Seems about it, there
are bumper stickers, but it ground zero of the issue
(26:28):
of abortion is real. People struggling with moral and ethical
questions about life. And there's a beating heart in there.
To the president and CEO of Calnet, Rollin Warren knows
about that issue because he's been there. And in his book,
The Alternative to Abortion, he shows the goal for everyone
in the equation the unborn child, the pregnant mother, the
(26:50):
biological father, and all the people around them. Everyone needs
abundant life. If you click the green care net link
at Chris Fabry Live org, you'll see more about the
story that Rollin tells and why he's dedicated himself to
that pro abundant life perspective. If you haven't read it,
or if you've never heard about it, go to Chris Fabry. Archive.org.
(27:13):
Click the Green Care Net button today and you'll see
more about the alternative to abortion with Steve Brown. Here
is Drew in Tennessee. Hi, drew. Go right ahead.
S4 (27:28):
Hey. Thank you all for taking my call, Chris. You're awesome. Um,
I just want to see Mr. Brown, how you have
dealt with anger in your life. And what advice would
you give to the 45 year old? You trying to
hold a family together?
S1 (27:47):
Mhm.
S2 (27:49):
Well, I, uh, being older helps a lot and Jesus
helps a lot. I there are certain principles that I
have learned and don't always follow. Um, the people with
whom I'm angry. Uh, I've asked God to let me
(28:11):
listen to their hearts instead of their words or even
their actions. And by and large, God has done that. Um,
I've tried to remember, uh, how often God has forgiven
me and love me when I didn't deserve it. And
(28:31):
you can't love until you've been loved. And you can
only love to the degree to which you have been loved.
And so I'm learning to love some people that I
have in the past thought of as being enemies. But
one thing you got to be careful about, too, and
Chris mentioned this in a book that I wrote, No
(28:55):
more Mr. Nice Guy. Being able to control a sinful, angry,
or anger doesn't mean that you become a wuss, or
that you not express your views, or that you don't
sometimes find yourself being angry for the right reasons, and
(29:18):
you got to ask God to let you know the
difference and to put a governor on you when it's
sin and a microphone on you when it's righteous. But
I struggle with it today, I still do. Somebody said
when I spit on the ground, the grass withers sometimes.
(29:41):
And I and an associate said to his senior pastor,
restrain your anger. And he said, son, you're looking at
more restrained anger than you've ever seen in your life
right now. So I struggle with it, and I probably
will until I die. But trust me, as an old guy,
(30:03):
I'm better. And that is Jesus. I'm not. There was
a time when I would have been described as an
angry young man. That's not my description. It's not my name.
It's not where I live anymore. And ask him by.
S1 (30:25):
The grace of God. Okay, so I want to ask
you a question, drew. When you said hold your family together,
what does that mean?
S4 (30:36):
It means when I lash out in anger, um, I
push them away, and it's. It's, uh. It's tough. It's
a thorn in my side. And, um, I just need
some extra guidance from. From older Christian men. Yeah, that's
a lot of us do.
S1 (30:55):
Well, and my my thought is, Steve, if if he's
lashing out in anger, it's probably not what is right
in front of him that he's angry about. There's something
that's going on on the inside that he may never have,
you know, doesn't realize that that's what's bubbling up. And
it just comes. It's, you know, these little fires come
in different areas. And until you uncover that, until you
(31:17):
are honest with yourself and somebody else. You don't. You're
not able to deal with that. Do you agree, Steve?
S2 (31:23):
That's so true and so wise. In fact, I would
suggest that the man who's calling find a very wise
Christian or counselor and sit down and begin to probe
where some of that's coming from. For instance, I'm an
adult child of an alcoholic and and there and a
(31:46):
number of other things. I my father was a single,
the son of a single mother and that, uh, child
of a with no father and nobody knew who the
father was. That's a generational thing. And that and some
(32:07):
other things, um, became one of the ways that I
began to see where my anger was coming from, and
the demons of anger, when they're brought into the light,
generally lose a lot of their power.
S1 (32:29):
I had Pat Morley on about a year ago. And
do you know, Pat, do you know?
S2 (32:35):
I do. I love him. He's a good friend.
S1 (32:37):
And drew, I want you to hang on. Is drew
still there? No. He's not. Okay. Okay. Um, I really
want to suggest that book to you that we talked
with Pat about because it did something in me, and
I have some of the same things. It sounds like
that that drew that you're talking about. I don't know
(32:59):
if anger control is a big thing with me, Steve.
I just want control over everything. And I'll. I'll scratch
and claw even, especially with financial stuff, you know? And
if I get overcharged or I get, uh, I buy
some bad hot dogs at the store. I'm back there
and getting my $5.52 because it's just like, this makes
(33:19):
me feel better, you know? And it's all about making
me feel better. And I realize, well, wait a minute,
that's the control thing. And I need I need to
deal with the control thing in my life more than anything.
And so getting in touch with that kind of deal,
I think, really helps, don't you?
S2 (33:37):
Oh, gosh. Yes, it really does. And Chris, ever since
I've known you and there are a lot of things
I love about you, but one is the unbelievable authenticity.
I hate that word. It's overused. But when you look
it up in the dictionary, your picture is there. I, uh,
(34:00):
I mean, you say things that I don't believe I'd say.
S1 (34:06):
Okay, so I found the book, and drew is back. Hey, drew,
are you there now?
S4 (34:11):
Yes, sir. Sorry.
S1 (34:12):
I'm going to. I'm going to tell you I'm going to. No, no,
you didn't do anything from broken boy to mended Man.
That is a book by Patrick Morley. And I want
you to to think about getting a copy of that
and going through it and then going through it with
another man or a group of men, because there's something
that's going on with that, and he's got the video
(34:34):
series and all that stuff with it, but it's from
Broken Boy to Mended Man and the anger thing in there.
He'll deal with some of that anger, but I don't
guarantee you that it's it's going to happen overnight. But
here's what I do guarantee you your desire to take
care of this, your desire to deal with it, not
(34:57):
to fix it. See, that's the other thing. You can't
fix this. This is something that God does in you
over time, as Steve said. But the desire that you
have to draw closer to your family instead of push
them away from you. I think that's a really good thing.
So I know you're driving and you can't write it down. Um,
(35:18):
but if you'll hang on, I'll have.
S4 (35:19):
To take over. Okay, good. Pulled over in a church
parking lot, and, uh, it's, uh, the church of the Nazarene,
so thank you all, whatever that is. But. Yeah, look
at that. I really appreciate y'all. Thank you.
S1 (35:33):
God bless you, friend.
S2 (35:34):
Book by Pat is extremely honest about his own journey. Yes.
S1 (35:41):
Yeah. And it goes it goes into, you know, what
happened to him as a kid and his vulnerability. You're
talking about authenticity. His vulnerability allows the reader to really
see what's going on in his life. Okay, I got
a bunch of other questions. We got some other folks
on the line. I got to bring up a friend
of yours, Tony Campolo. We'll talk about that and a
(36:05):
whole lot more. Steve Brown's with us at the radio.
Backyard fence, more straight ahead on Moody Radio. It's the
Lightning round with Steve. Brown today at the back fence.
(36:26):
I have to ask him about Tony Campolo. I have
to ask him about Warren Wiersbe. I told him I
was going to ask him about Warren Wiersbe when we
started the program. I never have, and then Larry called
in and I got to get to Larry in Florida. Hey, Larry,
what do you want to ask Steve?
S5 (36:39):
Okay, Steve, go back to when you were at Key Life.
Years ago in Campolo and Morley. All these names are
so familiar. I wanted you to recount briefly, if you could,
that wonderful story that touched all of us about your
humility and finding out that your voice, your deep voice,
went into laryngitis and you had to whisper. And if
(37:02):
you could just recount that briefly, your wit.
S2 (37:05):
And.
S5 (37:05):
Wisdom are twins just telling you. Steve. Your wit and
wisdom and deep depth of theology are a trilogy. And
I'm going to hang up and listen.
S6 (37:14):
All right, here we go.
S2 (37:16):
Chris, I was speaking for a conference of some people
I wanted to impress, and I thought they were very
fortunate to have me. When the plane landed in the
city where I was speaking, my voice disappeared. Now, I
don't know if you've noticed, but my voice is better
than yours. In fact, it is a great voice. And
(37:40):
I thought, you know, I gotta teach the Lord. You
can't do this to me. But my voice was gone
for four days, and every time I taught, I had
to whisper when I got on. And by the way,
God did some wonderful things. And when I got back
on the plane and the moment it took off, my
voice came back. So it was obviously God. And he
(38:04):
was saying to me, it's not your voice. And it's
certainly not your looks. It's me. So thank me for
what I did without your voice. And I did, and
it was I don't want. I said, please don't do
that to me again, though.
S1 (38:25):
You don't need to learn it again. Okay, so here's the.
S2 (38:27):
Other lesson again.
S1 (38:29):
The other thing I was going to ask you about,
Warren Wiersbe, because we're given this great book away, Becoming New. Um,
did you meet Doctor Wiersbe? Did you ever have contact
with him?
S2 (38:39):
Yes, I did, and I, I was, uh, he's a
hero of mine, and and, uh, man, he absolutely would
say things that others wouldn't say. Sometimes they were hurtful.
And in ways he was a prophet. And I admired
(39:01):
him from the distance. And when I shook hands with him,
I didn't wash my hand for a week. And that
new book they found. I gotta get it. I bet
it's great.
S6 (39:14):
It is.
S1 (39:15):
We're going to send you a copy. Becoming new, if
you'll give me your address. If you give me your
phone number and address, I'll sell that online. Steve, just
for you. Okay. Uh, okay. We've come to Tony Campolo
because I love, you know, it's Friday, but Sunday's coming.
It's Friday, but Sunday's coming. I learned that, you know,
I heard that message years and years ago, and then
(39:38):
it felt like Tony Campolo went, you know, a little
different way theologically. And there were some things, but you
were friends with him and you did programs with him
even though you disagreed with him. And so my question
to you, and now that he's passed away, my question
to you is, how do you how do you stay
friends with somebody that you disagree with? And is that
(39:58):
an important thing to do?
S2 (40:00):
That's why we did that syndicated talk show on television
because we wanted to demonstrate how two guys who disagree
about everything but love Jesus can love each other. And Chris,
I loved him a lot. Uh, I didn't agree with
hardly anything. We were going, how are we doing time wise?
(40:23):
Can I tell you a story?
S6 (40:24):
Yeah. Let's do it. You got.
S1 (40:26):
Six minutes.
S2 (40:27):
Okay. I, um, we had scheduled a debate here in
Orlando at the Orlando Health place, and, uh, two months
before that debate was to take place, Tony came out
and affirming homosexual marriage. And evidently, uh, a lot of people,
(40:54):
close friends, broke fellowship with him. They wouldn't speak with him.
And he called me and he said, Steve, uh, you know,
I love you. And I said, I know and I
love you, but it's just harder sometimes, he said. He said,
if you don't want to do this debate with me,
I'll understand. And I said, Tony, you're crazy. This is
(41:19):
just another one of your wacko views. We're friends, and
we're going to be friends until one of us dies
and then for eternity. So don't give me this stuff.
Of course we're going to do the debate. And he
got emotional, and he passed the phone to Peggy, his wife,
(41:40):
and I said, how are you guys doing? And she said, well,
it's hard sometimes, but as long as we have friends
like you and there aren't, many will do, okay. And
then Chris, two days before he died, he called me, and, uh, I, uh,
(42:03):
I didn't know he knew. I think that he was
going to. We talked every 3 or 4 weeks, and
he said, Steve, I'm just calling to say hello and
say that I love you. And we talked for a
little bit, and it was a strange call. And then
I found out two days later he had died. And
so it was a goodbye call. There are two things
(42:28):
about Tony. The first is that now that he's in heaven,
finally his wacko political views are getting straightened out. But
it doesn't matter. And secondly, uh, I fully expect that
he's going to have a house up close to the
(42:49):
throne because he loved Jesus as much as anybody I've
ever known. And, uh, on a on the fun side
of it. He and I are both bald, and he
said we could moon America on our television program by
(43:10):
putting our heads together. And now I wouldn't say anything
like that, but that would be the kind of thing
Tony said. And Chris, I loved him a lot, and
I still disagree with a lot of stuff, but everybody
who belongs to Jesus belongs to everybody who belongs to Jesus.
(43:34):
And I miss Tony a lot.
S1 (43:38):
Do you know how his wife and how his family
is doing?
S2 (43:41):
I've talked to her a couple of times and it's
been very, very hard because she's had her own struggles,
but all things considered, she's doing really well.
S1 (43:55):
I'm so glad we got to have this time. And
now you can understand why I wanted to do it.
You know this seasoned saint or saints in winter or
voices of wisdom, whatever you want to say. Because I
think a lot of times when believers get older, we
kind of push them off to the side and say,
you know, go over there and do do the thing
(44:17):
over there when we need you more in the middle
of all of this, sharing with us and maybe even
saying things that we don't disagree with so we can
have the conversations and keep having them. So thanks for
doing that today.
S2 (44:32):
Hey you made. Thank you. That means a lot to me, Chris.
And you do too.
S1 (44:39):
When when was it hard for you to trust God
in your life? Was there ever a moment yesterday? Pop
into your yesterday. And what was it about? It was
about that that clock that went off a little bit ago.
S2 (44:55):
That what?
S6 (44:56):
No, no, no.
S1 (44:57):
What was it? What? When would you. Did you have
a hard time trusting God?
S2 (45:02):
Uh, I have a hard time trusting God. Um, I, uh,
I wrote a development letter for our ministry just yesterday,
and I had written a development letter a month before.
That was a panicked letter, and I apologized. And I
(45:23):
said to them, look, I preach. You gotta trust Jesus.
I don't live it very well. So please forgive that
last letter I sent you.
S6 (45:34):
That's good.
S2 (45:35):
I think we all struggle with that.
S6 (45:37):
Yeah.
S2 (45:38):
Uh, you know, I'm old. I'm cramming for finals. Uh,
the good news is I'm going to heaven. And the
bad news is, I'm going on Thursday, and that's hard
to trust God with that.
S6 (45:53):
Yes it is.
S2 (45:54):
It's his faith and not mine. and he holds me.
I don't hold him. So it's okay.
S6 (46:01):
Yeah.
S1 (46:03):
Your treasure. Steve. Keep doing what you're doing. Do your
laps today and come back and see us again real soon, okay?
S2 (46:11):
Hey. Thanks, Chris a lot.
S1 (46:13):
Steve Brown, author, broadcaster, founder of Key Life Network. Laughter
and Lament is our featured resource at Chris Fabry Live
the radical freedom of joy and sorrow. Hope this was
a balm to your soul today at the back fence
and a real help to you. Come on back tomorrow
for another conversation. Oh, it's going to be good. We're
(46:35):
going to talk about motherhood, mean girls and trauma right
here on Chris Fabry Live. A production of Moody Radio,
a ministry of Moody Bible Institute. Thanks a lot for listening.
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