May 30, 2024 • 25 mins
Who really wrote the Book of Hebrews, and why does it matter? In this episode, we tackle the enduring mystery of its authorship and the ongoing debate over whether Paul was behind its composition. By contrasting Hebrews with Paul's other letters, we highlight the unique stylistic differences and set the scene for understanding the complex context in which it was written. This book was aimed at Jewish converts grappling with the seismic shift from Old Testament practices to the revolutionary teachings of Jesus—a transition that was anything but smooth.
Moving on, we shine a spotlight on Jesus' divine nature and unparalleled purpose as depicted in Hebrews and the Gospel of John. You'll hear about His portrayal as the radiance of God's glory and the exact imprint of His nature, existing from the dawn of creation. This episode underscores the shift from God communicating through prophets to the direct revelation through His Son, Jesus—who purified sins and now reigns at God's right hand. We also touch on the significant roles angels played in biblical narratives, ultimately reinforcing Jesus' supreme status over all heavenly beings.
Lastly, we dissect the hierarchy and superiority of Jesus within Jewish tradition and Christian theology. Jewish culture revered angels, but Hebrews makes it clear: Jesus stands far above them. Using various scriptures, we illustrate that God never bestowed the same honor upon angels as He did upon His Son. Through these passages, we emphasize Jesus' eternal nature and supreme authority, making it clear that while angels serve as messengers, Jesus reigns as the eternal King. So, grab a friend and join us for this enriching exploration of the Book of Hebrews, and stay tuned for more thought-provoking discussions.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome back to the Two Fish Podcast.
My name is Nick, I'm Aaron andthis week we're starting the
letter of the Bible calledHebrews.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Hey, that's right, two Fish community.
We are back for anotherexciting episode and we are
diving into the book of Hebrews.
We're excited to have you joinus.
And we are diving into the bookof Hebrews.
We're excited to have you joinus Once again.
We encourage you to go out andgrab a friend and sit down and
do this with them as well.
After you listen to the episode, go through, read it.
(00:35):
We like to describe it ascampfire discussions.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
So we would really encourage you to go grab a
friend, have them listen theepisode and then have discussion
.
Yeah, exactly, hebrews.
Man, it's right after by lehman, which we've done.
If you haven't heard that study, go back.
Not that these have anything todo with each other, just kind
of doing some prep work for this.
Uh, hebrews, no one knows whowrote it.
There's some theories.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
We got some good guesses and, and I think a lot
of times you'll hear people say,oh, it's probably wrote by paul
, right?
That's one of the most morecommon names thrown out there,
because he wrote the majority ofthe new new testament, right,
and his name gets thrown outthere a lot, um, but if you dive
into it and you listen totheologians out there the people
that like really dive into theroots of these things they say
(01:21):
it's definitely not paul itcould have maybe been somebody
that was following paul yeah butthey don't believe it was wrote
by paul and I just got just ofthe books that we've done, that
paul has done, which we've donea lot of them.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
I said philemon is the book right before it, verse
number one paul, prisoner ofchrist and timothy, our brother.
To philemon, almost everysingle one of his books, there's
a specific greeting he does.
He says this is who I am andthis is why you can trust me.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Right, and one of our last studies.
Oh boy, you bring that up.
I wish I would have been readyfor this.
He actually points to you know,this is me writing, because of
the way I write my lettersbecause, of the way I write my
letter, and so you can come toHebrews and you can conclude
(02:11):
that it's likely not Paul,because it's not wrote like
Philemon or the letter to theCorinth or any of those other
letters, because it doesn't openthe same and it doesn't close
the same.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
And really it doesn't even feel the same.
And we've done Philemon, we'vedone all the way to Revelation.
We didn't do Revelation.
We've done a lot of these lastbooks.
We skipped Hebrews on purpose,because it's written different.
It's just a different style ofwriting and to me, when I read
it, I'm like this is a.
This is gonna be a lot harderin my mind as we go through this
(02:41):
.
And so this just forefront herethis is gonna to take us longer
than a normal book and I don'tthink that's a bad thing.
It's just going to take longerand we're not going to do it
straight.
We'll get some other episodesin some topical stuff and we've
got a couple other thingsplanned that we've had planned
in our minds for a long time andjust haven't executed on it.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
But this is going to take a while even just this
first chapter, but I guess let'sjust get into it.
Yeah, I think where I washoping you were going with that
was a lot of paul's otherletters are wrote to the
gentiles and this letter was notwrote to gentiles, it was wrote
to jewish.
Um, what do they call them?
Jewish converts?
So they are.
(03:21):
He's writing to a devout Jewishcommunity that had split.
I didn't dive into this toomuch, but they had split off and
they were kind of their owncommunity.
But they had similar to Paul,they had the really Jewish
background where the.
Gentiles were not that.
So this letter, impartially, isprobably wrote different due to
(03:44):
the audience that it is beingwrote to.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
That does not mean that it does not apply to us
today.
I had the thought as we werepreparing for this.
Maybe it's for today's terms.
The more established Christianwas a thought I had, but it
applies to all of us.
I don't know if that's a goodthought or a bad thought on how
to relate to it, but I think itwas definitely a Jewish
(04:11):
community and not a Gentilecommunity.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
And I think the problem and I can see myself in
that situation as God spokethrough prophets and then all of
a sudden, he goes silent.
God goes silent, doesn't talkto anyone for like 400 years I
think the numbers is and thenall of a sudden, jesus comes
along and Jesus says hey, I'mthe one you guys have been
waiting on.
And for 400 years, thesegenerations of Jews have just
(04:35):
gone along with the status quoand the culture of well, this is
what the Old Testament said weneed to do.
And then all of a sudden, herecomes someone that says now you
can do it differently.
I think that'd be a struggle.
I would struggle with that.
If it's something I knew deepdown, this is the way god has
asked me to do sacrificing forsins.
I've learned my whole life.
(04:55):
This is what and it's biblical.
And then all of a sudden, herecomes this guy named jesus
saying I don't have to do thatanymore and yes there's signs
that point to jesus is theanswer, and they should have
known it, and a lot of them didknow it.
You know what I mean.
They came to accept it.
I think this is just a hardtime period where jesus is
saying, okay, now we're movingon to something new, we have a
(05:16):
new covenant, and so these arethe jews that are have converted
, but they're probably stillstruggling there, so let's get
right into it.
Get right into it.
We're six, seven minutes in um.
Again.
I'm reading from the esv or dieversion what do you have
tonight?
What is that?
Speaker 2 (05:32):
thing, the niv, every man's bible, oh nice it looks
like never mind it's an oldbible it looks like every man
has handled.
Oh my goodness, that's funnyall right, here we go.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
Hebrews, chapter one, verse one.
Long ago, at many times and inmany ways, god spoke to our
fathers by the prophets, but inthese last days he has spoken to
us by his son, whom heappointed the heir of all things
, through whom also he createdthe world.
He is the radiance of the gloryof God and the exact imprint of
his nature, and he upholds theuniverse by the word of his
(06:10):
power.
After making purification forsin, he sat down at the right
hand of the majesty on high,having become as much superior
to angels as the name he hasinherited is more excellent than
theirs.
All right, we'll stop rightthere.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
Yeah, I think the the first thing I just want I want
to go back to uh once again islike this clearly doesn't open
like a paul's letter.
Yeah right, this is this guy.
Just like we often say, herecomes paul with a hammer.
Right, whoever wrote this, hejust came with a hammer there
was no warning.
Yeah, like I'm gonna tell youwho jesus christ is and this is
(06:48):
your god.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
Yeah um, again, like I said earlier, prophets.
God spoke to prophets and thenjesus came and and there's so
many people that want to takethe bible and say, okay, it's
not for today, or it's not true,or or it's not true, or or it's
not true, or we can't like.
He lays it down.
Right here he says whom heappointed, the air of all things
(07:12):
, through whom also he createdthe world.
And right here he's saying heis the radiance of the glory of
God and the exact imprint of hisnature.
Like Jesus is God.
He was there at the beginningwhen God formed the earth world.
John one one says in thebeginning was the word capital W
talking about Jesus and theword was with God and the word
(07:33):
was God.
And the writer he was justdoubling down on that saying he
was always there.
God spoke through the prophetsand then he sent Jesus, his son,
and now he's speaking throughJesus.
And then he gives the purpose.
I mean there's so much here.
He gives the purpose for Jesus.
He says after makingpurification for sins, he
returned at the right hand ofthe majesty on high.
(07:53):
What was the purpose of Jesus?
He came to purify sins so thatthese Jews, who he's writing to
no longer have to do sacrificialthings for their sins.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
Yeah, Jesus was the sacrifice.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Ultimate Verse 4 said Having become as much superior
to angels as the name he hasinherited is more excellent than
those.
How does your Bible read there,verse 4?
Speaker 2 (08:16):
I was still hung up on verse 3.
All right, but like I'm justhung up, the sun radiate God's
own glory.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Ooh, that's a good way to say it too.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
Yeah, that's how mine reads.
Yours was a little different.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
My verse three was he is the radiance of the glory of
God and the exact imprint ofhis nature.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
The sun radiates God's own glory and expresses
the very character of God.
I don't know, that's justpowerful.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
That's a powerful way to describe something.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Yeah, of god, I don't know, it's just powerful.
That's a powerful way todescribe something.
Yeah, and like in your opening,your opening paragraph to your
thesis, that you're writing to acommunity, and that's like I'm
just gonna tell you where I'mcoming from, yeah, and this is
where I'm coming from and what Ibelieve, and this is what you
should believe, right?
And then verse four, mine,reads this shows that the sun is
(09:08):
far greater than the angels,just as the name of god gave him
greater than their namesbecause angels are created
beings.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
And here he's the exact imprint impression of god.
He radiates god image soclearly.
He's above the writer.
He was doubling down on thefact that he is above even
angels, which a lot of theseJews having converted.
You think about Paul.
He was Saul.
He did not believe in Jesus,the Jesus of the Messiah.
(09:38):
He came after Christians.
Then he was saved on the roadto Damascus and then he realized
, oh my gosh, okay, okay, jesusis who he says.
He is Moving on verse numberfive.
He's kind of doubling down onthis fact of Jesus who they knew
walked among them, maybe notthese specific Jews, but he
walked among the Jewish people,the apostles that were there at
(10:01):
the time.
He's doubling down on thisVerse five.
He says for to which of theangels did God ever say you are
my son today, I have begottenyou.
Stopping right there.
He's clearly putting Jesusabove heavenly beings.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
He's saying God clearly, jesus above heavenly
beings or angels, yeah, yeah,jesus is above, above it all.
And you can go to the oldtestament.
You're going to read about someangels, right, and like they're
.
Well, I mean, the whole conceptof satan is he's a fallen angel
, right, yeah?
And this writer is just sayinglook at these.
(10:50):
God said you are my son.
Today I have become your father.
That immediately puts him aboveall other things.
And then he says you will sitat my right hand.
You will sit the right hand,god.
Nobody else there's not angelssitting there.
There's not angels sitting therenow.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
The disciples tried to argue who would get to sit to
the right hand of jesus rightbut that's not the right hand of
god, that's the right hand ofjesus yeah so, god, clearly put
him on the pillar, put him aboveeverything else, yeah well, I
I'm glad you brought that oldtestament part up, because if,
when you read through the oldtestament which the torah Torah
(11:32):
our first three books was theirTorah all through there an angel
appeared.
Just think of the story ofJesus's birth.
An angel appeared to Mary.
An angel appeared to Sarah, hercousin and her husband.
An angel appeared to Joseph.
Like all through the oldTestament, god appears here and
there, but then angels appearalso and they're messengers in
(11:56):
the old Testament.
So a one of these Jewish peoplethat this writer's writing to
like that's a part of theirculture.
They're angels, they'reheavenly beings, and I think
they have put I want to say like, kind of like catholics have
put mary on a pedestal.
These jewish people have grownup understanding how important
(12:17):
to their history angels were andthen, all of a sudden, this guy
named jesus comes in and sayshey, I'm the son of god.
That just counter.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
It goes against what they've been taught their whole
lives and what they know fromtheir history now that's, that's
really good, and so that wouldhave been a way that people were
related, god speaking to them,right, yeah, and you can go back
up to verse one.
Long ago, god spoke many timesand in many ways, um, so he
(12:46):
spoke to moses through burningbush.
He spoke to elijah through anangel who brought him food.
In the book of kings, um, hespoke through dream.
So he spoke to people in lotsof different ways, but a lot of
them associated angels with it,because it shows up a lot and
and maybe they even made some ofthose prophets of the old idols
(13:10):
, right, yeah, and?
And the writer is saying he'snot saying jesus was an angel.
He's saying jesus is fargreater than the angels that you
currently.
I don't know if they worshipedthem, but they clearly thought
very highly of them.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
And this writer is saying no whatever you think of
them you need to bring this guyup five notches above, whatever
you think of them and I thinkthe example there, verse five
when did god ever say you are myson to an angel?
You are my son.
When jesus is baptized andchrist comes out of the water by
(13:49):
john the baptist, a dove comesdown and and a voice of from
heaven says this is my son, whomI love.
With him, I am well pleased.
The writer hebrews is sayingthat jesus god, has never said
that about an angel or any otherspiritual being, it's just.
This is another level.
He's just trying to hone down onthe fact that there's a order
(14:10):
to holiness and jesus is rightup there at the top he is the
top he is the top yes, not rightup there, he's the top, verse
number seven, moving on of theangels, he says he makes his
angels winds and his ministersof flame and fire.
But of the sun, he says yourthrone, oh, is forever and ever.
The scepter of yourrighteousness is the scepter of
(14:32):
your kingdom.
You have loved righteousnessand hated wickedness.
Therefore, god, your God, hasanointed you with the oil of
gladness, beyond your companions.
I mean again a stark difference, a stark.
Of the angels, he says hey,these are the guys that are
going to carry out my mission.
They're doing stuff for me.
Angels were created to worship.
They're worshipers.
(14:52):
But what is your?
Verse seven says again, minesays he makes his angels winds
and his ministers a flame offire mine reads regarding the
angels.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
He says he sends his angels like the winds, his
servants like the flames of fireso they're there to.
They're there to do things,they're there to say things,
they're there to be messengersand they're plentiful, like I
kind of hear that in that, likeit sends them, like the winds
there's, there's plenty of them,and there's only one that he
(15:22):
has called his son just a quickum google search.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
The bible says myriads of myriads, or tens of
thousands times tens ofthousands of angels.
There's legions of angels, soyou're talking a hundred million
, plus just those quick numbersadded there, of angels and of
all them Jesus is above them.
That's pretty crazy.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
Verse 10.
He also says to the son in thebeginning Lord, you laid the
foundation of the earth and madethe heavens with your hands.
They will perish, but youremain forever.
They will wear out like oldclothing.
You will fold them up like acloak and discard them like old
(16:03):
clothing, but you are always thesame you will live forever.
God never said to any of theangels sit in the place of.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
That's so good.
I referenced John, the gospelof John I'm going to.
I turned there here John 1, 1.
In the beginning was the word,and the word was with God and
the word was God.
He was in the beginning, withGod.
All things were made throughhim, and without him, him,
nothing was made.
That has been made In him waslife, and the life was the light
of the man.
The light shines in thedarkness, and the darkness has
(16:35):
not overcome it.
I really think that's pointingto what he's saying right there.
Your Lord laid the foundationof the earth in the beginning.
There will perish, but you willremain.
Your years have no end.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
You will remain forever.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
They will wear out like old clothing talking about
the heavens and the earth.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
Like it's.
It's all gonna fade away, butyou will remain, and he's again.
He's never saying that toangels angels prophets.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
He didn't say that to moses yeah he didn't even let
moses enter the promised land.
What he did for the son, he hasnot done for anybody or
anything else?
Speaker 1 (17:13):
continuing, he says to which of the angels has he
ever said sit at my right handuntil I make your enemies a
footstool at your feet.
Are they not all ministeringspirits sent out to serve for
the sake of those who are toinherit salvation?
Which, there again, he saysthat earlier.
Like he makes his angels, windsand his ministers a flame of
(17:34):
fire, a flame of fire, like he'susing them.
They have a role and that's nota bad thing.
And these jewish people havesaid okay, they're a part of a
culture, they're holy.
We need to maybe even to thepoint of we need to worship them
.
And I feel like we're sayingthe same thing over and over
again here.
But that's what the writer'ssaying.
He's just wanting to make surethat there's levels here and
jesus is at the top, andobviously there had to have been
(17:57):
a reason that the writer wrotethis in that time culturally, or
there would have been no reasonfor him to write this.
So these jews were dealing witha kind of a hierarchy problem
here yeah, I think.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
So.
This is where it getscomplicated, right?
So this guy specifically wroteto um the jewish and he has a
very, very good knowledge,knowledge of the jewish
community and the old testament,right.
So you can dive into this andyou can go pretty deep into this
chapter one.
But when you break it down, whoare you putting above?
(18:31):
Jesus and?
And I, and I think of today'smodern society and I I think of
idols with this.
I think people put their, theirpreachers or their pasture
above what they should like, and, and I feel like people and
this isn't like a, it's not aknock on catholics, because I
(18:51):
see it in the christiancommunity too I gotta go to the
leader in my church and havethem pray for me yeah I gotta go
to confession.
I gotta go to nick.
Now there is confess to oneanother.
Yeah right, biblical, it'sbiblical, but like you don't
(19:11):
have to go to that person tohave a relationship with Jesus,
now it's not exactly what thisguy is pointing to.
I feel like that's what he'ssaying here is, jesus is far
greater than any of these angelsor the prophets.
He's far greater than Peter orPaul, isaac, moses, aaron, name
them all.
(19:31):
Right, he ruled over all ofthat and I think we get that
confused and we want to go toour church leadership for
everything.
We want to like have thisbusiness structure to how we
work through our salvation andour sanctification.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
Yeah, and then the next chapter.
My title starts Warning Againstneglecting salvation, and
salvation is the ultimate goalfor the non-believer, for the
believer to present to anon-believer only through jesus
do we have salvation.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
I I think one of the like this jewish, the hebrews.
They could believe in theangels, they believed in the
prophets, but they struggled tobelieve in jesus.
Christ came as a son, fullyhuman, fully god walked this
earth and he didn't demolish theroman empire like they all
(20:27):
speculated what's gonna happendidn't come riding in on the
golden chariot, right, yeah,with a sword and just kind of
like in some of the OldTestaments, wipe out this
community, right, that's whatthey're expecting and came very
differently.
And this writer is telling themhe is the son of God.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
He is who he says he is.
It didn't come out how youthought it was going to, but
that wasn't ever the plan Right,it was your plan.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
And oftentimes, I think in today's society, we
still get that all wrong, andpart of that being that we we
see this hierarchy that well, wegotta go through the food chain
yeah right.
That didn't match up with whattheir belief was and how it was
gonna happen.
To today, I think we stillstruggle with that and the fact
that we think we got a call uponthe angels and we gotta yeah go
(21:19):
have billy bob joe pray for us,because he has the gift of
whatever and, like you, justneed to cultivate that
relationship with jesus yeah,and I think there again, we said
this a few minutes ago there isa place for that.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
There is a lot of biblical things that say, go to
your brother and confess, go tothe elders of church and have
them pray over you when you'resick, like there are biblical
things and I think they were.
Maybe, maybe there's a this,there's a group here that this
writer's writing to and again, Ithink today even there's a
group of us, and sometimes a lotmyself, in there.
(21:54):
My chapter two, the firstheading there is warning against
neglecting salvation.
That is the most importantthing.
These jewish people have ahistory and a culture of
following the rules and going bythese rules and going by a
hierarchy, and and I think thethe goal and the point of
(22:15):
christianity is it's about jesus, it's salvation through jesus
alone.
All this other stuff doesn'tmatter.
It's good.
It's good for you.
You'll show fruit from it, butyour don't forget about the
point with salvation.
Don't go back to.
Well, I need to pray, pray toMary, or I need to pray to an
angel, because they're sittingat no.
(22:37):
Jesus is sitting at the righthand of the Father and that's
where we get our salvation from,and we'll go into more of that
next week because chapter twotalks a lot about our salvation.
But I think there's a grouphere struggling with roles and
with where their sights need tobe set on.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
Once again, this is definitely a letter in my Bible.
This is how it's described.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
It has a section here .
Speaker 2 (23:01):
Once again, this is the NIV Everyman's Bible.
It says who wrote it.
We don't know, probably notPaul.
Style is quite different.
The author was certainly highlyeducated, with a thorough
knowledge of the jewishreligious practices in the old
testament yeah but that doesn'tmean it doesn't apply to today.
(23:26):
But you could take this chapterand you could break this thing
down and we could probably makethree to four episodes out of it
because you could dive into.
Well, how did god speak to ourancestors?
Like we just briefly hit themright, we named like three or
four.
He spoke through burning bushto moses.
(23:46):
He spoke through dreams, hespoke through angels.
There's a whole various waysthat he spoke to people and then
you can break down each one ofthese.
You are my son, I will be hisfather and he will be my son.
Like you can go into thoseverses, like you can really take
(24:07):
this thing and you can reallybreak it down.
But, as we spoke to, one of thekey concepts is is over and
over in here.
It is that jesus christ is whohe said he was and he did the
things he said he came to doyeah, just it kind of feels like
we said the same thing over andover again.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
He's because we said that too, but I'm just looking
ahead like I.
I said talk about salvation inchapter two, but then chapter
three, heading Jesus is greaterthan Moses.
Chapter five Jesus is greaterthan the high priest.
Chapter seven Jesus compared toMelchizedek.
(24:46):
Like the, the writer of Hebrewsis making sure that this group
knows Jesus is the one.
Yeah, and we'll break it alldown as we go through hebrews.
It's going to take us a while.
This is a little bit biggerbook than the other ones we've
done and there's so much in thisum.
So make sure you're subscribed,make sure you follow wherever
you're listening to this, shareit so we can get it out to as
(25:07):
many people as we can share itwith the person that you're
going to follow along with uswith so that you can have
discussion after we're done.
Thank you so much for being apart of the Two Fixed Community.
Next week we'll be back.
Hebrews, chapter 2.
Welcome back to the Two Fish Podcast.
My name is Nick, I'm Aaron andthis week we're starting the
letter of the Bible calledHebrews.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Hey, that's right, two Fish community.
We are back for anotherexciting episode and we are
diving into the book of Hebrews.
We're excited to have you joinus.
And we are diving into the bookof Hebrews.
We're excited to have you joinus Once again.
We encourage you to go out andgrab a friend and sit down and
do this with them as well.
After you listen to the episode, go through, read it.
(00:35):
We like to describe it ascampfire discussions.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
So we would really encourage you to go grab a
friend, have them listen theepisode and then have discussion
.
Yeah, exactly, hebrews.
Man, it's right after by lehman, which we've done.
If you haven't heard that study, go back.
Not that these have anything todo with each other, just kind
of doing some prep work for this.
Uh, hebrews, no one knows whowrote it.
There's some theories.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
We got some good guesses and, and I think a lot
of times you'll hear people say,oh, it's probably wrote by paul
, right?
That's one of the most morecommon names thrown out there,
because he wrote the majority ofthe new new testament, right,
and his name gets thrown outthere a lot, um, but if you dive
into it and you listen totheologians out there the people
that like really dive into theroots of these things they say
(01:21):
it's definitely not paul itcould have maybe been somebody
that was following paul yeah butthey don't believe it was wrote
by paul and I just got just ofthe books that we've done, that
paul has done, which we've donea lot of them.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
I said philemon is the book right before it, verse
number one paul, prisoner ofchrist and timothy, our brother.
To philemon, almost everysingle one of his books, there's
a specific greeting he does.
He says this is who I am andthis is why you can trust me.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Right, and one of our last studies.
Oh boy, you bring that up.
I wish I would have been readyfor this.
He actually points to you know,this is me writing, because of
the way I write my lettersbecause, of the way I write my
letter, and so you can come toHebrews and you can conclude
(02:11):
that it's likely not Paul,because it's not wrote like
Philemon or the letter to theCorinth or any of those other
letters, because it doesn't openthe same and it doesn't close
the same.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
And really it doesn't even feel the same.
And we've done Philemon, we'vedone all the way to Revelation.
We didn't do Revelation.
We've done a lot of these lastbooks.
We skipped Hebrews on purpose,because it's written different.
It's just a different style ofwriting and to me, when I read
it, I'm like this is a.
This is gonna be a lot harderin my mind as we go through this
(02:41):
.
And so this just forefront herethis is gonna to take us longer
than a normal book and I don'tthink that's a bad thing.
It's just going to take longerand we're not going to do it
straight.
We'll get some other episodesin some topical stuff and we've
got a couple other thingsplanned that we've had planned
in our minds for a long time andjust haven't executed on it.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
But this is going to take a while even just this
first chapter, but I guess let'sjust get into it.
Yeah, I think where I washoping you were going with that
was a lot of paul's otherletters are wrote to the
gentiles and this letter was notwrote to gentiles, it was wrote
to jewish.
Um, what do they call them?
Jewish converts?
So they are.
(03:21):
He's writing to a devout Jewishcommunity that had split.
I didn't dive into this toomuch, but they had split off and
they were kind of their owncommunity.
But they had similar to Paul,they had the really Jewish
background where the.
Gentiles were not that.
So this letter, impartially, isprobably wrote different due to
(03:44):
the audience that it is beingwrote to.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
That does not mean that it does not apply to us
today.
I had the thought as we werepreparing for this.
Maybe it's for today's terms.
The more established Christianwas a thought I had, but it
applies to all of us.
I don't know if that's a goodthought or a bad thought on how
to relate to it, but I think itwas definitely a Jewish
(04:11):
community and not a Gentilecommunity.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
And I think the problem and I can see myself in
that situation as God spokethrough prophets and then all of
a sudden, he goes silent.
God goes silent, doesn't talkto anyone for like 400 years I
think the numbers is and thenall of a sudden, jesus comes
along and Jesus says hey, I'mthe one you guys have been
waiting on.
And for 400 years, thesegenerations of Jews have just
(04:35):
gone along with the status quoand the culture of well, this is
what the Old Testament said weneed to do.
And then all of a sudden, herecomes someone that says now you
can do it differently.
I think that'd be a struggle.
I would struggle with that.
If it's something I knew deepdown, this is the way god has
asked me to do sacrificing forsins.
I've learned my whole life.
(04:55):
This is what and it's biblical.
And then all of a sudden, herecomes this guy named jesus
saying I don't have to do thatanymore and yes there's signs
that point to jesus is theanswer, and they should have
known it, and a lot of them didknow it.
You know what I mean.
They came to accept it.
I think this is just a hardtime period where jesus is
saying, okay, now we're movingon to something new, we have a
(05:16):
new covenant, and so these arethe jews that are have converted
, but they're probably stillstruggling there, so let's get
right into it.
Get right into it.
We're six, seven minutes in um.
Again.
I'm reading from the esv or dieversion what do you have
tonight?
What is that?
Speaker 2 (05:32):
thing, the niv, every man's bible, oh nice it looks
like never mind it's an oldbible it looks like every man
has handled.
Oh my goodness, that's funnyall right, here we go.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
Hebrews, chapter one, verse one.
Long ago, at many times and inmany ways, god spoke to our
fathers by the prophets, but inthese last days he has spoken to
us by his son, whom heappointed the heir of all things
, through whom also he createdthe world.
He is the radiance of the gloryof God and the exact imprint of
his nature, and he upholds theuniverse by the word of his
(06:10):
power.
After making purification forsin, he sat down at the right
hand of the majesty on high,having become as much superior
to angels as the name he hasinherited is more excellent than
theirs.
All right, we'll stop rightthere.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
Yeah, I think the the first thing I just want I want
to go back to uh once again islike this clearly doesn't open
like a paul's letter.
Yeah right, this is this guy.
Just like we often say, herecomes paul with a hammer.
Right, whoever wrote this, hejust came with a hammer there
was no warning.
Yeah, like I'm gonna tell youwho jesus christ is and this is
(06:48):
your god.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
Yeah um, again, like I said earlier, prophets.
God spoke to prophets and thenjesus came and and there's so
many people that want to takethe bible and say, okay, it's
not for today, or it's not true,or or it's not true, or or it's
not true, or we can't like.
He lays it down.
Right here he says whom heappointed, the air of all things
(07:12):
, through whom also he createdthe world.
And right here he's saying heis the radiance of the glory of
God and the exact imprint of hisnature.
Like Jesus is God.
He was there at the beginningwhen God formed the earth world.
John one one says in thebeginning was the word capital W
talking about Jesus and theword was with God and the word
(07:33):
was God.
And the writer he was justdoubling down on that saying he
was always there.
God spoke through the prophetsand then he sent Jesus, his son,
and now he's speaking throughJesus.
And then he gives the purpose.
I mean there's so much here.
He gives the purpose for Jesus.
He says after makingpurification for sins, he
returned at the right hand ofthe majesty on high.
(07:53):
What was the purpose of Jesus?
He came to purify sins so thatthese Jews, who he's writing to
no longer have to do sacrificialthings for their sins.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
Yeah, Jesus was the sacrifice.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Ultimate Verse 4 said Having become as much superior
to angels as the name he hasinherited is more excellent than
those.
How does your Bible read there,verse 4?
Speaker 2 (08:16):
I was still hung up on verse 3.
All right, but like I'm justhung up, the sun radiate God's
own glory.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Ooh, that's a good way to say it too.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
Yeah, that's how mine reads.
Yours was a little different.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
My verse three was he is the radiance of the glory of
God and the exact imprint ofhis nature.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
The sun radiates God's own glory and expresses
the very character of God.
I don't know, that's justpowerful.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
That's a powerful way to describe something.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Yeah, of god, I don't know, it's just powerful.
That's a powerful way todescribe something.
Yeah, and like in your opening,your opening paragraph to your
thesis, that you're writing to acommunity, and that's like I'm
just gonna tell you where I'mcoming from, yeah, and this is
where I'm coming from and what Ibelieve, and this is what you
should believe, right?
And then verse four, mine,reads this shows that the sun is
(09:08):
far greater than the angels,just as the name of god gave him
greater than their namesbecause angels are created
beings.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
And here he's the exact imprint impression of god.
He radiates god image soclearly.
He's above the writer.
He was doubling down on thefact that he is above even
angels, which a lot of theseJews having converted.
You think about Paul.
He was Saul.
He did not believe in Jesus,the Jesus of the Messiah.
(09:38):
He came after Christians.
Then he was saved on the roadto Damascus and then he realized
, oh my gosh, okay, okay, jesusis who he says.
He is Moving on verse numberfive.
He's kind of doubling down onthis fact of Jesus who they knew
walked among them, maybe notthese specific Jews, but he
walked among the Jewish people,the apostles that were there at
(10:01):
the time.
He's doubling down on thisVerse five.
He says for to which of theangels did God ever say you are
my son today, I have begottenyou.
Stopping right there.
He's clearly putting Jesusabove heavenly beings.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
He's saying God clearly, jesus above heavenly
beings or angels, yeah, yeah,jesus is above, above it all.
And you can go to the oldtestament.
You're going to read about someangels, right, and like they're
.
Well, I mean, the whole conceptof satan is he's a fallen angel
, right, yeah?
And this writer is just sayinglook at these.
(10:50):
God said you are my son.
Today I have become your father.
That immediately puts him aboveall other things.
And then he says you will sitat my right hand.
You will sit the right hand,god.
Nobody else there's not angelssitting there.
There's not angels sitting therenow.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
The disciples tried to argue who would get to sit to
the right hand of jesus rightbut that's not the right hand of
god, that's the right hand ofjesus yeah so, god, clearly put
him on the pillar, put him aboveeverything else, yeah well, I
I'm glad you brought that oldtestament part up, because if,
when you read through the oldtestament which the torah Torah
(11:32):
our first three books was theirTorah all through there an angel
appeared.
Just think of the story ofJesus's birth.
An angel appeared to Mary.
An angel appeared to Sarah, hercousin and her husband.
An angel appeared to Joseph.
Like all through the oldTestament, god appears here and
there, but then angels appearalso and they're messengers in
(11:56):
the old Testament.
So a one of these Jewish peoplethat this writer's writing to
like that's a part of theirculture.
They're angels, they'reheavenly beings, and I think
they have put I want to say like, kind of like catholics have
put mary on a pedestal.
These jewish people have grownup understanding how important
(12:17):
to their history angels were andthen, all of a sudden, this guy
named jesus comes in and sayshey, I'm the son of god.
That just counter.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
It goes against what they've been taught their whole
lives and what they know fromtheir history now that's, that's
really good, and so that wouldhave been a way that people were
related, god speaking to them,right, yeah, and you can go back
up to verse one.
Long ago, god spoke many timesand in many ways, um, so he
(12:46):
spoke to moses through burningbush.
He spoke to elijah through anangel who brought him food.
In the book of kings, um, hespoke through dream.
So he spoke to people in lotsof different ways, but a lot of
them associated angels with it,because it shows up a lot and
and maybe they even made some ofthose prophets of the old idols
(13:10):
, right, yeah, and?
And the writer is saying he'snot saying jesus was an angel.
He's saying jesus is fargreater than the angels that you
currently.
I don't know if they worshipedthem, but they clearly thought
very highly of them.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
And this writer is saying no whatever you think of
them you need to bring this guyup five notches above, whatever
you think of them and I thinkthe example there, verse five
when did god ever say you are myson to an angel?
You are my son.
When jesus is baptized andchrist comes out of the water by
(13:49):
john the baptist, a dove comesdown and and a voice of from
heaven says this is my son, whomI love.
With him, I am well pleased.
The writer hebrews is sayingthat jesus god, has never said
that about an angel or any otherspiritual being, it's just.
This is another level.
He's just trying to hone down onthe fact that there's a order
(14:10):
to holiness and jesus is rightup there at the top he is the
top he is the top yes, not rightup there, he's the top, verse
number seven, moving on of theangels, he says he makes his
angels winds and his ministersof flame and fire.
But of the sun, he says yourthrone, oh, is forever and ever.
The scepter of yourrighteousness is the scepter of
(14:32):
your kingdom.
You have loved righteousnessand hated wickedness.
Therefore, god, your God, hasanointed you with the oil of
gladness, beyond your companions.
I mean again a stark difference, a stark.
Of the angels, he says hey,these are the guys that are
going to carry out my mission.
They're doing stuff for me.
Angels were created to worship.
They're worshipers.
(14:52):
But what is your?
Verse seven says again, minesays he makes his angels winds
and his ministers a flame offire mine reads regarding the
angels.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
He says he sends his angels like the winds, his
servants like the flames of fireso they're there to.
They're there to do things,they're there to say things,
they're there to be messengersand they're plentiful, like I
kind of hear that in that, likeit sends them, like the winds
there's, there's plenty of them,and there's only one that he
(15:22):
has called his son just a quickum google search.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
The bible says myriads of myriads, or tens of
thousands times tens ofthousands of angels.
There's legions of angels, soyou're talking a hundred million
, plus just those quick numbersadded there, of angels and of
all them Jesus is above them.
That's pretty crazy.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
Verse 10.
He also says to the son in thebeginning Lord, you laid the
foundation of the earth and madethe heavens with your hands.
They will perish, but youremain forever.
They will wear out like oldclothing.
You will fold them up like acloak and discard them like old
(16:03):
clothing, but you are always thesame you will live forever.
God never said to any of theangels sit in the place of.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
That's so good.
I referenced John, the gospelof John I'm going to.
I turned there here John 1, 1.
In the beginning was the word,and the word was with God and
the word was God.
He was in the beginning, withGod.
All things were made throughhim, and without him, him,
nothing was made.
That has been made In him waslife, and the life was the light
of the man.
The light shines in thedarkness, and the darkness has
(16:35):
not overcome it.
I really think that's pointingto what he's saying right there.
Your Lord laid the foundationof the earth in the beginning.
There will perish, but you willremain.
Your years have no end.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
You will remain forever.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
They will wear out like old clothing talking about
the heavens and the earth.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
Like it's.
It's all gonna fade away, butyou will remain, and he's again.
He's never saying that toangels angels prophets.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
He didn't say that to moses yeah he didn't even let
moses enter the promised land.
What he did for the son, he hasnot done for anybody or
anything else?
Speaker 1 (17:13):
continuing, he says to which of the angels has he
ever said sit at my right handuntil I make your enemies a
footstool at your feet.
Are they not all ministeringspirits sent out to serve for
the sake of those who are toinherit salvation?
Which, there again, he saysthat earlier.
Like he makes his angels, windsand his ministers a flame of
(17:34):
fire, a flame of fire, like he'susing them.
They have a role and that's nota bad thing.
And these jewish people havesaid okay, they're a part of a
culture, they're holy.
We need to maybe even to thepoint of we need to worship them
.
And I feel like we're sayingthe same thing over and over
again here.
But that's what the writer'ssaying.
He's just wanting to make surethat there's levels here and
jesus is at the top, andobviously there had to have been
(17:57):
a reason that the writer wrotethis in that time culturally, or
there would have been no reasonfor him to write this.
So these jews were dealing witha kind of a hierarchy problem
here yeah, I think.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
So.
This is where it getscomplicated, right?
So this guy specifically wroteto um the jewish and he has a
very, very good knowledge,knowledge of the jewish
community and the old testament,right.
So you can dive into this andyou can go pretty deep into this
chapter one.
But when you break it down, whoare you putting above?
(18:31):
Jesus and?
And I, and I think of today'smodern society and I I think of
idols with this.
I think people put their, theirpreachers or their pasture
above what they should like, and, and I feel like people and
this isn't like a, it's not aknock on catholics, because I
(18:51):
see it in the christiancommunity too I gotta go to the
leader in my church and havethem pray for me yeah I gotta go
to confession.
I gotta go to nick.
Now there is confess to oneanother.
Yeah right, biblical, it'sbiblical, but like you don't
(19:11):
have to go to that person tohave a relationship with Jesus,
now it's not exactly what thisguy is pointing to.
I feel like that's what he'ssaying here is, jesus is far
greater than any of these angelsor the prophets.
He's far greater than Peter orPaul, isaac, moses, aaron, name
them all.
(19:31):
Right, he ruled over all ofthat and I think we get that
confused and we want to go toour church leadership for
everything.
We want to like have thisbusiness structure to how we
work through our salvation andour sanctification.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
Yeah, and then the next chapter.
My title starts Warning Againstneglecting salvation, and
salvation is the ultimate goalfor the non-believer, for the
believer to present to anon-believer only through jesus
do we have salvation.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
I I think one of the like this jewish, the hebrews.
They could believe in theangels, they believed in the
prophets, but they struggled tobelieve in jesus.
Christ came as a son, fullyhuman, fully god walked this
earth and he didn't demolish theroman empire like they all
(20:27):
speculated what's gonna happendidn't come riding in on the
golden chariot, right, yeah,with a sword and just kind of
like in some of the OldTestaments, wipe out this
community, right, that's whatthey're expecting and came very
differently.
And this writer is telling themhe is the son of God.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
He is who he says he is.
It didn't come out how youthought it was going to, but
that wasn't ever the plan Right,it was your plan.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
And oftentimes, I think in today's society, we
still get that all wrong, andpart of that being that we we
see this hierarchy that well, wegotta go through the food chain
yeah right.
That didn't match up with whattheir belief was and how it was
gonna happen.
To today, I think we stillstruggle with that and the fact
that we think we got a call uponthe angels and we gotta yeah go
(21:19):
have billy bob joe pray for us,because he has the gift of
whatever and, like you, justneed to cultivate that
relationship with jesus yeah,and I think there again, we said
this a few minutes ago there isa place for that.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
There is a lot of biblical things that say, go to
your brother and confess, go tothe elders of church and have
them pray over you when you'resick, like there are biblical
things and I think they were.
Maybe, maybe there's a this,there's a group here that this
writer's writing to and again, Ithink today even there's a
group of us, and sometimes a lotmyself, in there.
(21:54):
My chapter two, the firstheading there is warning against
neglecting salvation.
That is the most importantthing.
These jewish people have ahistory and a culture of
following the rules and going bythese rules and going by a
hierarchy, and and I think thethe goal and the point of
(22:15):
christianity is it's about jesus, it's salvation through jesus
alone.
All this other stuff doesn'tmatter.
It's good.
It's good for you.
You'll show fruit from it, butyour don't forget about the
point with salvation.
Don't go back to.
Well, I need to pray, pray toMary, or I need to pray to an
angel, because they're sittingat no.
(22:37):
Jesus is sitting at the righthand of the Father and that's
where we get our salvation from,and we'll go into more of that
next week because chapter twotalks a lot about our salvation.
But I think there's a grouphere struggling with roles and
with where their sights need tobe set on.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
Once again, this is definitely a letter in my Bible.
This is how it's described.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
It has a section here .
Speaker 2 (23:01):
Once again, this is the NIV Everyman's Bible.
It says who wrote it.
We don't know, probably notPaul.
Style is quite different.
The author was certainly highlyeducated, with a thorough
knowledge of the jewishreligious practices in the old
testament yeah but that doesn'tmean it doesn't apply to today.
(23:26):
But you could take this chapterand you could break this thing
down and we could probably makethree to four episodes out of it
because you could dive into.
Well, how did god speak to ourancestors?
Like we just briefly hit themright, we named like three or
four.
He spoke through burning bushto moses.
(23:46):
He spoke through dreams, hespoke through angels.
There's a whole various waysthat he spoke to people and then
you can break down each one ofthese.
You are my son, I will be hisfather and he will be my son.
Like you can go into thoseverses, like you can really take
(24:07):
this thing and you can reallybreak it down.
But, as we spoke to, one of thekey concepts is is over and
over in here.
It is that jesus christ is whohe said he was and he did the
things he said he came to doyeah, just it kind of feels like
we said the same thing over andover again.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
He's because we said that too, but I'm just looking
ahead like I.
I said talk about salvation inchapter two, but then chapter
three, heading Jesus is greaterthan Moses.
Chapter five Jesus is greaterthan the high priest.
Chapter seven Jesus compared toMelchizedek.
(24:46):
Like the, the writer of Hebrewsis making sure that this group
knows Jesus is the one.
Yeah, and we'll break it alldown as we go through hebrews.
It's going to take us a while.
This is a little bit biggerbook than the other ones we've
done and there's so much in thisum.
So make sure you're subscribed,make sure you follow wherever
you're listening to this, shareit so we can get it out to as
(25:07):
many people as we can share itwith the person that you're
going to follow along with uswith so that you can have
discussion after we're done.
Thank you so much for being apart of the Two Fixed Community.
Next week we'll be back.
Hebrews, chapter 2.
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