June 13, 2025 • 49 mins
Welcome to Chronically The Sickest - the sickest podcast you know.
On today’s episode I’m joined by renowned author, Sarah.
We get into gaslighting your anxiety, somatic therapy and managing public perception.
Read Sarah's books here!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:04):
Hello folks, and welcome to Chronically the Sickest, the
podcast where we talk about all things that make us chronically
the sickest people we know. I'm Clark, your host.
It's nice to chat with you this week.
Join us as we dive into the episode, sit back, relax, and
enjoy the show. Hello Sarah, and welcome to
(00:33):
Chronically the Sickest Podcast.I'm so excited to have you.
Hello. Hi, thank you for having me.
I am someone who is familiar with your work, but if the
listeners out there aren't, tellus a little bit about yourself,
who you are, what you're doing. OK, my name is Sarah Hendricks.
I am diagnosed as autistic and have ADHD, and over the past 20
(00:59):
years or so I've been working asa specialist in the field of
autism and neurodivergence. I was a trainer, a conference
speaker. I've run some voluntary sector
projects all around autism and Asperger's syndrome as it as it
was then. I've also written six books
around the same topic. The most well received one was
(01:22):
called Women and Girls on the Autism Spectrum, which is now
out in its second edition. I have another book out in
October which I wrote with my daughter could called Could I
Really Be Autistic? Which is all about the kind of
journey from suspicion of diagnosis towards the idea of
whether you want to have an assessment or self diagnose or
(01:44):
whatever. And I'm currently writing the
complete guide to Audi HD which will be out in January in 2027.
Oh my goodness. Wow, so many new books.
How exciting. When I diagnose people, that's
what I do. Yeah, that's that's my job.
My main job is writing books anddiagnosing people these days.
That's amazing. No, that was a great like ending
(02:05):
to end cap all the things you just said.
You were like, right? So this is actually what I do.
Yeah, yeah, I forgot the currentjob that that that pays my
bills. Believe me, I get that.
If someone asks me what I do, I rarely say that I'm a podcaster.
I say, oh, this is my day job and then also I do these other
things. Yeah, yeah, I just forget.
It's just blankness quite often.So I have notes and I still
(02:26):
forgot. You're doing great.
No, you answered that. Great.
Well, thank you for kind of explaining who you are.
I, I know that a couple people hopefully will know who you are.
If they don't, they're gonna be super, I think, surprised and
excited to hear what you have tosay.
I hope. So.
I hope so too. So I do always ask the question
(02:47):
to kind of lead us into our topic, which is what do you
think makes you chronically the sickest person you know?
I think it's because, like a lotof neurodivergent people, I have
so many things wrong with me that make me appear to be some
kind of hypochondriac. I am always uncomfortable.
I've always got an ache, a pain,a headache, something that's not
(03:11):
working properly or I'm uncomfortable in the environment
or I'm anxious or this or this or whatever it just seems to
add. Up.
That is a very relatable reason to be the sickest person you
know. I feel that it really is.
You're like, oh, I got this one diagnosis and they're like,
(03:32):
surprise, there's actually five more right behind that one.
Yes. And people go, I thought it was
your leg that hurt, but no, it'syour shoulder.
And I know you've got this and now this is hurting too.
And oh, you're sensitive to light and you can't sit on the
chair without a cushion. And it's.
Yeah, it just goes. On of course, of course, No, we
could totally get into, yeah, like the convergence between
(03:52):
like chronic illness, neurodivergence, all those
things. It's such like a.
It's like a circle that just goes round and round.
Yeah, yeah, for sure. Well, we kind of talked about it
before we started recording, butwe wanted to focus on the
subject of agoraphobia, which I thought was a very interesting
(04:13):
thing to focus on because like we were saying, it's not talked
about a lot. Yeah, absolutely.
And I think it's well known thatneurodivergent people are
particularly have a strong tendency for anxiety generally
because often we find the world complicated, confusing,
uncertain, worrying. It changes all the time.
(04:33):
There's loud noises. So our, our system seems to tip
into fight or flight, you know, sometimes constantly.
And you know, a lot, a lot of people would say that and, and
that's been my extreme most of my life, but I, I began to
become agoraphobic about 10-10 years or so.
And I just thought it would be interesting to think to just to
(04:55):
share a little bit, I suppose about and obviously this is not
just for autistic people, this, this kind of stuff happens to
anybody, but just that just thatidea of how small life can
become and how difficult it can become.
But on the outside, you can still look like a very capable
person, a professional person. And that it ends up being a bit
(05:16):
of a, can be a bit of a secret sometimes.
And certainly it was for me thatit was, yeah, kind of trying to
live in this way without people knowing.
Yeah, of course. Because I mean, even when you
think of the word agoraphobia, Ifeel like people kind of think
of like a hermit, like someone who never leaves their home and
when in fact, you can still be aperson, you're just having to
(05:39):
deal with a lot more on top of that.
Yeah, absolutely. So I think certainly in the past
people thought that it was aboutbeing afraid of open spaces, but
it's not that it's being afraid,it's the fear of the fear.
So it's an anxiety related to having a panic attack.
And so therefore you tend to avoid locations and places and
(06:02):
situations where you might have a panic attack.
So this is not a kind of anxietything where you get really,
really, really anxious. This is this is panic, this is
terror, this is Get Me Out of here.
Your whole system is just screaming.
Something really bad is going tohappen here.
And once that's happened to you a few times because it's so
(06:24):
horrible, you you just sort of build up this idea of trying to
avoid that. So you're mentally thinking all
of the time, if I go out today, what will be the steps involved
in my journey that might put me in a situation where I'm, I
might panic. And the risk of that means that
(06:44):
often you end up staying at home, which I think is where
this idea is that you're afraid,you know, of open spaces or
being away from home, but it's avoiding those kind of things.
So within the diagnostic criteria are things like public
transport. So public transport is is really
huge for people with with agoraphobia because you can't
escape and you can't leave and you can't get help.
(07:08):
And this idea of I can't go there because then I can't get
help. Help for what?
I mean, who knows? It's all just this nonsense
really in your mind because you're not, you're not in any
danger. You're just on a bus or you're
in a lift or you're. So it's not a kind of autistic
fear of public transport where you don't like sitting next to
(07:29):
people or you, you don't know ifthe bus might go on a different
route, which is much more about unpredictability.
This isn't just kind of irrational, but I, I won't be
able to get off without people looking at me.
I might fall on the floor, I might faint, I might vomit, I
might make a fool of myself. So the safest place to be is, is
(07:50):
just stay where you are and, andremain with either going places
with a safe person. So my partner Keith has been my
safe person for for almost 10 years.
I couldn't stay in my own home without him being there.
It's just been really dreadful. It ended my career as a public
speaker because I began to have panic attacks while I was
(08:11):
speaking on stage and I couldn'ttravel independently.
I used to travel all over the world flying trains, buses, and
I wasn't able to do any of thosethings.
So yeah, it's it's massive and horrible.
Yeah, it sounds like it. That's so frustrating to feel
like you go from like this trulycapable person to just like,
(08:35):
like almost a shell of yourself a little bit.
Enormously so, yeah. And I think it's really, people
often think, oh, you're afraid of flying.
And I say, no, I'm, I'm not afraid of flying.
I like flying. It's fun.
You go places, I can look out the window.
The world's beautiful. But something in my brain has
(08:55):
decided that that environment where I can't get off is, is
absolutely terrifying. And therefore the fear of what
might happen in that environment.
And the reality is nothing happens.
And and that's that's the truth is nothing happens.
And I've done as I would being me and being autistic.
(09:17):
I've done a lot of reading aboutthis.
I've done a lot of, you know, why is this happening?
How do I get. I'm just being so annoyed with
it. Just like what is this?
You just you're showing up today.
Are you OK? Here we are, Mr. Panic, you're
here. Are you?
Yeah. Just reading an awful lot about
what it is, what it means. I'm on the way out of it.
(09:39):
Really, really on the on the wayout.
But it but it's hard. It's hard going.
Yeah, it sounds like it. The way you're describing it is
almost like a little unwanted houseguest that just pops in and
is like, hey, something horribleis going to happen.
You're like, I didn't need that.Thank you.
Yeah, absolutely. And that's certainly one of the
(09:59):
techniques that is suggested to almost personify this thing as a
whatever you want, give it a name, you know, visage it as a
creature or something that's it's just irritating.
It's just irritating. It doesn't.
And the other, the other part istrying to kind of take back the
power. So the more energy you give this
(10:20):
thing, this fear, this panic, the more control it has over you
and it it's trying to take that back and say actually I'm, I'm
in charge here. I'm in control.
And sometimes for me, I think envisaging that and I'm not very
good at visualizing anything. I'm not great at that, but
having this sense, but it's a thing that's showing up and
(10:42):
making it kind of small and weasely and a bit feeble and
pathetic. It can be kind of a little bit
helpful to sort of think, right?You can just F off, yes, just
leave, you know? Real.
I like that. OK, now that we kind of like,
understand a little bit more about what agoraphobia is, can I
(11:05):
ask, like, what your experience has been like?
When, like, when did you first start realizing, like, this is
what it might? Because he said it was 10 years
ago, right? Yeah, yeah, I think I'm not.
You know, we guessed, don't we? When things start, we we look at
our lives and we go, oh, that's what it was.
But I think for me it was a whole combination of stuff.
(11:26):
I was in my mid 40s, my youngestchild to death just left home.
I moved to a foreign country forthe first time.
I was doing a lot of traveling, a lot of flying, a lot of public
speaking. So my body was just, there was a
lot of adrenaline going through all the time, a lot of stress, a
lot of general performance anxiety and those kinds of
(11:48):
things. And then I think it was also
perimenopause. I think probably that may well
have been the the final straw which tipped it into this thing.
So initially I just found myselfbeing just a little bit more
anxious wherever I went. I didn't like crowded trains
anymore and I would wait until something quieter came along.
(12:12):
If I went on an aeroplane, I would want the extra legroom
seat. I would want no one sitting
next. It was just this slowly, just a
sense of this kind of growing anxiety.
And then one day I was at a conference in a, in a, in a big
conference room with maybe 400 people.
And then midway through this presentation, I've done like
(12:34):
1000 presentations. It was my job.
It was kind of easy. And suddenly in the middle of
this presentation, I just began to have this, this panic attack
and was just standing on a stagetrying to continue and trying to
just fight my own brain. And, and I, I, the only person
(12:56):
in the room that noticed was my partner, because obviously he
knows me and he knows what was likely to be coming out of my
mouth. And, and all of a sudden I
started to sort of kind of be a little bit gibberish and started
to rely really heavily on the sly, you know, the PowerPoint
slides. So in my head, I've got this
(13:17):
part of me just going get out ofhere, get out of here, get out
of just just get, just go, just go, just car is pumping.
It's just go, just go. It's, you know, terrible danger,
terrible danger. And then the other part of me
is, is carrying on talking and is just doing this thing.
And, and then eventually it subsided and I carried on and,
and I just, I just did it. And afterwards my partner said
(13:39):
what happened? Halfway through something
happened. You just started talking
rubbish. And it was, and I, it was, it
was just terrifying the concept of being in front of all of
those people and that happening.But it was my job and it was the
only way I I could earn my living.
And so I kept doing it and I kept getting on the stage and
(14:02):
every single time, almost every time, sometimes it wouldn't
happen, but almost every time, even in small rooms of maybe 10
people, I would, I would have this, this panic attack halfway
through and just kept doing it and just kept doing it.
And then people go, oh, well, itcan't have been that bad
because, you know, nobody noticed.
But that's certainly not how it felt on the inside.
(14:25):
But it, I didn't know what else to do.
I was just, it's my job. What I do is how I earn money.
And so yeah, I kept, I kept going until one point I just, I
just couldn't keep going anymore.
And I just said I'm done. Yeah, wow.
Oh my gosh. You were like saying you were
like, and then this horrible thing happened and like, only my
(14:45):
partner noticed. And I was expecting you to be
like. And then I stopped and you were
like, Nope. And then I kept doing it for a
little while because like you said, you almost had to.
You're like, this is what I do. Yeah, yeah.
I didn't know how to get anotherjob.
I didn't I, you know, I didn't, didn't really know what, what to
do. So I obviously like you read
(15:06):
everything and and you read everything and it says that what
you shouldn't do is leave the situation.
Because if you leave the situation, your brain begins to
learn that it was correct, that you were in danger.
So there you are going, you know, panic, panic, anxiety,
(15:26):
anxiety, all of these physical symptoms, red face sweating,
palpitating, dripping with sweat, absolutely pouring is
vile. And then you leave the
situation, you calm down and your brain says, see it was
dangerous over there. We were right to leave when this
is actually the worst thing you can do.
What you have to do is you have to stay and then you will calm
(15:49):
down because you always do eventually.
And then the idea is that eventually your brain says, OK,
well, there was nothing bad happening.
So, you know, we, we don't need to do that anymore.
We don't need to switch on the smoke alarm.
There's no fire. It's all OK.
And I did this with the, with the public speaking and I did
(16:10):
this with public transport, but it never went away.
I did it like 200 times and it still didn't go away.
And eventually I said I just, I just, my little white flag of
surrender came out and I said that that's it.
I'm done. I'm not flying anymore.
I'm not doing any public chat. I'm just not doing it anymore.
(16:31):
I give up. That's it.
And I think in hindsight, for me, that was the right thing to
do. I think perhaps I was in the
middle of perimenopause and I think I was just exhausted and I
just had, I had nowhere to recuperate and nowhere to
recover. If you keep putting your system
(16:52):
into this, get on a plane, get on a train, get on a stage, I
think eventually you can't recover.
You're just in this heightened state all of the time.
So And so I just stopped all of it for about 6 or seven years.
And yeah, I never stayed in my house by myself, couldn't get in
a lift, a car with somebody elsedriving it.
(17:13):
It was just a very, very small little life for a very long
time. Yeah, I mean, I'm sitting here
and I'm like, well, I don't know, that makes sense to me.
I would also be like, I'm done like I am.
I can't I I also almost wonder. I feel like this is going to be
both a statement and a question.Like, I almost wonder if being
(17:34):
autistic also played a role in that because I'm wondering
you're saying, you know, like the heightened emotions of like,
of like everything is all the time so much and not having a
place to recuperate. I'm wondering if you would hear
differently from someone who's like, right?
Obviously I'm doing the like kind of exposure and response
almost of like you got to try and then like let your brain
(17:56):
calm down. I wonder if that's different for
neurotypical people or even likeyou said, like with
perimenopause. Do you think like that played a
role at all? Potsies, listen up.
We both know that precinctopy sucks.
Fainting to passing out when you're alone though, that is 2
(18:17):
thumbs down. It's so nerve wracking.
Like what if I pass out and hit my head or I start getting dizzy
while I'm driving? Am I going to be safe or just in
general am I going to be safe? As a disabled woman?
That anxiety, that is what gets you.
But I don't have that anymore. Well I do have anxiety.
(18:40):
I am an OCD girlie but not aboutpassing out or my safety because
I just click my Invisi Wear necklace and both my family and
emergency personnel are alerted.The dizzies are scary no matter
how many times it happens, but knowing that I have a backup
plan is what makes me feel a little bit better, so maybe
(19:02):
that'll help you too. Using code SICKEST for 10% off
on your Invisi Wear purchase at the link in your description is
an option. Sending you salty vibes.
Okie dokie. Anyway.
It could well be. I mean, obviously I can't speak
(19:24):
for everyone who's had this, butyeah, I think if your whole
system is heightened most of thetime and every activity that you
do, which I was doing was, was heightening that again.
And just everyday life. Then I wonder if you don't know
where, where calm is because younever or you rarely feel that
perhaps. I think also I'm not good at
(19:46):
knowing my limits. I, I, I believe I have a
lexithymia. I don't know when something's
too much until it's too much. So I, I just go and I go and I
go and I'm probably running on adrenaline and the ADHD kicks in
and I'm really excited and I'm having a whale of time.
And then it's just crash and crash and crash and it's almost
(20:08):
like. I don't learn that, that I and
I'm I don't get those signals that it's, it's just I'm just
under resourced. This is this is a kind of
thought that I've I've been learning about this concept that
if you're constantly under resourced and I think a lot of
neurodivergent people are a lot of people who experience anxiety
(20:29):
are that you, you begin every task already under resourced.
Wow. OK.
Yeah, that makes total sense. So you're already depleted when
you're going to do something stressful or something
complicated or something new or something, you know,
overwhelming in any particular way because just your being in
(20:52):
the world you've. Got.
Kids, you've got a job, you've got neighbors and you've just
got stuff. And I suspect that when we know
that chronic illness is so big in in autism, which I guess
potentially is just that under resourcedness depletion for just
many, many years and eventually that we just the body just goes,
(21:13):
Nah, we're done here. You are going to rest and we're
going to make you. Yes, sometimes how it feels to
me. Yeah, no, that makes a lot of
sense. The parallels between chronic
illness and autism is so, so common.
You're right. Absolutely, and there is.
Researchers are suggesting that anyone who comes in complaining
(21:34):
of symptoms of chronic illness should be screened for autism.
It's so big. It's so big.
The crossover. Well darn, I'm wondering maybe
if that would have saved me sometime.
I think it will take a very longtime for the average GP to get
that message. Yeah, there's certainly that
(21:55):
understanding at an academic level that it, the crossover is,
is absolutely enormous. Yeah, OK.
Thank you for answering that question.
I know that you can't necessarily, like you said,
speak for everyone. Obviously you're just a person.
But I just thought it was so interesting the way that you you
phrased it like not like not knowing what or where calm is.
(22:18):
So it's like, how am I supposed to get to that state of, oh,
it's OK, teach my brain to be OK?
Because your brain is never at that state of, of being.
Absolutely, absolutely. And I had a wonderful therapist
and something she said, which was a really, again, it's really
interesting image to me was like, you have nowhere to land.
(22:39):
And it's that sense of landing, of stability, of stillness, of
right, I'm home now, I'm there. But it's almost this sense of
constantly being in movement andbusy and using all of your small
resources, and you don't know where to go.
Where is the calm place? If home's not calm, If work's
(22:59):
not calm, If you know, where do you go?
If all of your environments are very stressful and very busy,
there is no yeah know where to land.
Wow, that's real. That's real smart, real deep.
I'm going to have to go talk to my own therapist about that.
That's like life changing. OK.
So you kind of said like you took almost like six or seven
(23:21):
years off of doing public speaking, traveling, all those
things, which like you said, youlove doing those things, but it
became too, too much with like the panic setting and all the
time. Do you plan to do that at all in
the future? Like how are you doing now?
Because you kind of said that you're working towards kind of
(23:41):
figuring out how to like equalize with the agoraphobia.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think once I again, I'm
very slow off the mark. It took me about 7 years to work
out that I was in perimenopause and I just assumed I was going
crazy and was just very anxious and that was how it's always
going to be. So I think when some of those
(24:04):
symptoms, well, I think first ofall, sometimes just knowing that
there's a reason for this stuff is helpful because at least you
can put it in a little box and go, OK, that's just this thing
kicking off again or, or, or whatever that is.
So I had a really big rest and then I, I felt myself coming
towards the, the end of towards the end of perimenopause and
(24:26):
things feeling a little bit better.
And so I basically just sort of put myself on a bit of a program
and I made a really big list. So it's kind of CBT.
I know a little bit about CBT and I know some people,
particularly neurodivergent people are not always fans of
CBT. But for me, if it's adapted to,
to where I am and where I want to go, rather than someone
(24:46):
else's idea of what the quality of life looks like or goals look
like, I find it really logical and really helpful.
So I, I read all about what happens in the body when you,
when, when you panic. I read all about this stuff and
I made a great big list for myself on my little phone of all
the things I wanted to do in, inCBT terms, I think it's called
(25:07):
like an anxiety hierarchy. So it's a listing order from the
things that you perceive you perceive, not what the world
perceives as being the easiest. So the ones that are kind of on
a, on A1 on a scale of one to 10.
And then I made this big list all in order from kind of ones
to twos to threes to fours to upto up to 10's.
(25:30):
The airplanes are up there at #10 and #1 was that probably
something like going, going on abus or, you know, sitting in the
back of a car or something, something, something like that
or getting into a lift that thatwas also impossible for me.
And so I slowly worked my way down this list 1 by 1.
What the theory suggests, which I think works for me, is that if
(25:54):
you do the number ones and the number ones become zeros almost
easy, then everything else in the list kind of shunts forward
a little bit. So your number twos are now
number ones. So they're a little bit closer
now because, OK, well we stood in a lift for one floor, OK,
maybe we could do a bus for one stop maybe.
(26:16):
So it, I worked my way all the way through through this list.
So even go to the cinema I had, I had to sit on the end seat, I
had to look at the plan. I had to know where the door
was, you know how the layout was, the theatre or anything
like that. Couldn't do any of those things
if it was going to be busy crowd.
Even going to the toilet in a public place in a restaurant and
(26:38):
and and closing the door made mepanic.
It was crazy, crazily small things that that that would
really, really upset me. So I basically worked my way
kind of all the way through this, this list bit by bit.
So the, the idea is this is there's a few things that might
be useful as sort of strategies and things, if that's helpful.
(27:00):
The first thing you need to do and to understand is that it
can't harm you. And, and that's huge and, and as
a logical autistic person, if you've had 200 panic attacks and
you haven't yet fainted, died, made a fool of yourself,
vomited, whatever, there's a reasonable chance that actually
(27:21):
you're wrong in believing that that's going to happen because
it hasn't. And the reality is it never
will. And The thing is, I hope anybody
listening who has these panic attacks that there's this
sensation where it just builds and builds and builds and builds
and builds. And it feels like that any
second, any second, you're goingto tip into this terrible place
(27:45):
where you lose control or fall over or have a heart attack or
something and you feel like you're on the edge.
You're absolutely on the edge ofthat.
But it never goes there ever. And actually eventually it just
dies out and calms itself down. The body just can't sustain
that. So the first trick is actually
(28:06):
genuinely believing that this won't hurt me, that it never has
and it and it never will. So you're just trying to
slightly have a little crack of doubt in the fear.
So when you fear the fear, the fear is just a bit smaller maybe
than it than it perhaps was at the time.
The other really scary thing youhave to do is you have to tell
(28:29):
it that if it wants a fight, you're here for the fight.
So come on, You want to panic, bring it on.
Come on. And that's terrifying.
And it's the thing that most people who have panic attacks
just think. You must be joking.
There's no way I'm doing that. But once you do that, it
(28:52):
dissipates almost immediately. It's quite astonishing.
And the final thing, the main thing you need to do is to
breathe, is to breathe in a particular way.
If your breathing is under control, it's incredibly
difficult for your body to go into a state of panic.
So you just have to maintain this breathing, maintain this
breathing, and there you are panicking, thinking it's not
working, it's not working, it's not working, but you just
(29:14):
breathe and you breathe and you breathe.
And then eventually it starts tokind of get under control.
But it's really exhausting and it's really hard work.
Yeah, who knew breathing could be so hard to do?
I know just to keep it going. Wow, those are some awesome tips
and tricks. And I love the way that you're,
(29:36):
like tying in your personal experience to them because it's
not just someone being like, oh,you should try this thing when
you're like, it's hecking hard to do that thing.
Like, sure, yeah, you tell me todo that thing exactly.
But you're saying it. Yeah, And that's because that's
what I was taught. It's what I read.
It's what I learned. Eventually you just think, I
(29:57):
want my life back. I don't want this.
I I can't stay in anybody's house.
I can't visit my family. I can't do anything on my own.
This is no way to live. And so for me, it was about
right. I need, I need to learn about
this and I need to, to to find things.
And if other people tell me thatthey work, I have to give it a
(30:17):
go. And no matter how terrifying
that is for me, I, I have to give it a go.
And I think, I think also the other thing that helped me was
understanding that this is just,and that sometimes this is a
protective fear response. So maybe it was triggered by a
situation in the past that was abit difficult or it was a very
stressful time in your life and that your body and your mind
(30:40):
just trying to protect you. That's all they were trying to
do. Nobody's trying to make this
hard for you. They're just trying to keep you
safe, but it's sort of outgrown the situation.
You don't need it anymore. You're OK.
It's overprotective. It's it's like the smoke alarm
going off when you make toast. We we don't need you.
Thank you. Thank you for warning us about
(31:01):
the smoke. But it's all good.
And I think if you can think about it like that, it's like
it's trying its best to look after you, but it's just made an
error. It's thinks the situation is
dangerous, but it, but it's really not dangerous.
And the other thing I do when I'm feeling in this way is I
look at people around me. I went on a on a ferry, which I
couldn't do at all unless I wentstraight to the cabin, fell
(31:22):
asleep, didn't know anything. I went on a ferry and it was in
the daytime. So you're in a big thing in the
middle of the sea. There's no escape.
This is this is agoraphobia, youknow, terror, the terror spot
for me. But what I did was I stood there
and I went, oh, look, these people have brought their
children onto this boat. These people are having a glass
(31:43):
of wine. These people are running around
the deck, they're enjoying themselves, they're on holiday.
If they're not bothered, then then I don't need to be
bothered. So other people become your
barometer that if they're calm, then then you know, they would
bring their children on this boat if it was a dangerous place
to be. So, so that is also something
(32:05):
that's that's really important to me to, to just give us some
perspective because you're in your own mind going, my God, the
world's going to end. And then you just go, oh, but
everyone else is just having a coffee and laughing.
And so I must be wrong. That's how it works for me.
I must be wrong. My perception must be wrong.
(32:27):
Right, you're like using logic to out logic your brain.
Yes, yes. And I, it'd be interesting to
know how non neurodivergent people manage some of this stuff
and whether they, you know, justdo the same things, the same
techniques. Maybe they do.
But yeah, but for me, it has to be like, well, if that, if that
is true, then this cannot be. So get a grip.
(32:50):
Pack it in. This is, you know, we're going
on holiday. That's what's happening.
Bugger off. That's fair.
I, I honestly kind of love the way you were like, well, they
brought their kids here, so how,how unsafe could it possibly be?
And I'm like, I'm going to startusing that.
OK, like. Exactly.
And I wonder if that's just something quite interesting
about anxiety generally, you know, to think about maybe
(33:12):
particularly when you're a divergent people just to look
around. And then it doesn't mean that
your anxiety is invalid or wrongor any of those kind of things.
But sometimes it is just our perception that is, is hypened
because we're uncomfortable withthis, with this or whatever.
But actually, I, I just sometimes just think, well, you
(33:32):
know what else is OK. So maybe I could be.
Maybe I could be too. Right, right.
Like just giving yourself that leeway to be like, look.
Yeah, yeah. I'm not being just trapped in
your own bubble of perception. And, you know, it becomes very
insular and actually just looking around you anyway is
also a shortcut out of anxiety often, isn't it, to notice a
(33:56):
smell or a bird or a, you know, a noise or something that's
outside of the nonsense that just spins and spins and spins
inside our heads? Yes, out of your head.
Right. The biggest tip of the day is
just don't be in your head. And you're like, thank you.
Yes, we'll do. Yes, just just get out.
(34:17):
Well, like people like to say inlike a joking manner online,
they're like go touch grass, butlike literally go go touch
grass. Like just go lay out in the sun
for a hot 2nd and just feel likea person for a second.
Absolutely, yeah. And showers, I think that I know
not everybody likes the feel of water upon them, but for me,
just a shower is, is just, it's hard to, for me to think in a,
(34:42):
in a, you know, an obsessive fashion when there's all of that
heat and sensation that it's just all-encompassing in a good
way. And it's like, that's it.
We're done. We're back, back to normal,
reset. And off we off we go.
Or splashing your face with coldwater or anything like that.
I think it's good for calm in the system.
(35:02):
I was actually going to ask, have you ever done like the, the
like vagus nerve maneuvers that people do like for anxiety, like
they put ice on their chest or like something like that?
I know that that's helped some people with anxiety.
Yeah, no, I haven't. I've certainly splashed my face
and things like that. But yeah, yeah, no, not, not
anything particular. But yeah, I think, yeah, I
think, I think it's something like that, isn't it?
(35:22):
It's just calming down the system or refocusing it
somewhere else to. Yeah, it's like a physical
version of like what you said about like looking around and
saying that everyone else is on holiday.
You're literally being like, look, there is ice on your wrist
or there's water on your face. Like you're you're dead.
You're here. Exactly.
Yes, it's all fine. Yes.
(35:44):
It's hard to think about yourself as panicking when
there's a three-year old playingfootball, you know, or
something. You you just think, No, really.
Come on. You can just embarrass your
brain out of being panicked. You're like, come on now, come
on. Like they're having a cup of
coffee and you're having a meltdown.
Really. This is how you want to act
right now? And you're like.
Absolutely, yes. And that's, and that's certainly
(36:06):
for me how it's felt that it's that it, there's sort of me in
here going, look, we're good, we're good, we're having a good
time, we're fine. And then there's something else
going. It's literally, it's like a,
it's like a toddler, like a dog,just like screaming in the
background. You're like, I'm trying to watch
a show right now. Can you stop please?
Exactly, you're just so tedious.Will you please leave?
(36:28):
I relate weirdly so much to yourexperience.
Like, I don't have agoraphobia, but I'm someone with OCD.
So like a lot of the things thatyou're talking about, I'm like,
yeah, I've heard of this. So like, I relate to that a lot.
Like, even like you said, visualizing your anxiety as like
a being of some sort is so helpful because like we're
saying, you can really be like, so tedious.
(36:50):
Please stop. Yes, yes.
And just that visualization of I'm in charge, I have power here
and I'm feeding it nothing. That's the other thing I think.
And I think this idea of visualizing it as a being is,
and I will often say I am givingyou nothing.
There is no food, no energy. The more fear you give it, the
(37:11):
bigger it gets and it and it wins.
So it's just I'm, I'm not actually going to give you
anything. I'm just going to carry on with
my day whilst I'm anxious or panicking.
But you are having nothing and then it kind of shrivels up and
dies. It kind of goes oh gives up.
That's funny, yes. In my head it's a bit of a
parasite. So you know what I didn't want
to hear anyway? Exactly.
(37:32):
I think for me, I, I imagine it as a kind of little Gollum type
feature, just some kind of dirty, you know, creepy little
thing that's just needs a bit ofa kick or something.
It's, you know, it's not, it's not a nice thing.
I'm not a violent person, but you're good.
My life has been severely restricted by this thing, so I I
(37:53):
it can it can do 1. I'm sorry.
I don't know why, but imagining it, it's gone.
And I'm just being like, can youjust get out of here and like,
I'm sorry. Oh, my gosh.
I don't know why. That visualization was hilarious
to me. Thank you.
Yeah. That was great.
And I swear really badly. So I, yeah, I'm, I'm always
swearing very horrifically at it.
That's fair. Same here.
I try not to swear my mom listens to this podcast but.
(38:15):
Yeah. But yeah, I hear you.
When I used to do conference speaking on my on my notes, it
always had Don't swear written in capital letters on top of my
notes. Of course, they're like, Sarah,
we can't have you come back. You were just like, like
morbidly obscene. You can't be saying something
like that on stage. And you're like, Dang it.
(38:35):
Oh well, self acceptance. We love that.
OK, now that we kind of have like covered who you are and
like what this is and what you've been doing to help
yourself and maybe help other people with that information, is
there anything else that you want to leave the listeners with
before we kind of close out? This is your friendly reminder
(39:01):
that you are listening to this for free, learning about chronic
illness, mental health, and other important topics for free.
But this does cost time and money to make, and you could be
getting a lot more. Click the Patreon link in the
description to get access to video episodes, free merch, and
(39:21):
bonus interviews where we may talk about things that have to
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(39:43):
That's my pitch, anyway. I think hopefully, and this is
not something else that I learntwas that each of us thinks that
what we're experiencing is somehow special, that it's it's
OK for everyone else. But mine is different, mine is
(40:05):
worse. None of these strategies will
work for me because somehow my mine is mine is bigger than
yours. And, and you know, you've just,
you've just not had it so bad orsomething.
And and that's not true. Yours is not special.
It's the same stuff that's goingon for everybody.
Of course, some people will havethese things, these attacks in
different situations and some ofthem will be bigger or worse
(40:26):
than others. But it actually, it isn't
special. It's just ordinary and and
believe very strongly that for the majority of people that you
can make progress on this if youstart small.
And I think that anxiety hierarchy, you can Google it.
I think it has different names, but it's this idea of listing a
bunch of things that you currently you can't do or, or
(40:48):
find a super, super uncomfortable and putting them
in order and you start with the number ones.
There's no point starting with the number 10s because you're
going to fail because it's too big, it's too much.
And that's what I realized that I was doing.
My under resourced self was trying to get on aeroplanes,
which were number 10s when actually it should just have
been trying to stay in the houseovernight by itself, which might
(41:10):
have been a number one or a #2. And and that's where we begin.
And this is the same for all anxiety.
It's not just agoraphobia, it's not just panic attacks.
If we want to think to ourselves, I have goals.
I want to extend my, my experience in a way I'm not
comfortable with, with what I what I do.
We start with the easy stuff so that we get quick wins and then
(41:33):
we can feel confident and able and then we move a little bit
higher up. Don't start getting on
airplanes. That's a stupid thing to do.
That's what I was trying to do over and over again.
I should have gone back to the beginning and and it took me a
long time to realize that. That makes sense, though,
because you said that at the beginning you were like, I kept
trying. I did 200 times.
And at some point I was like, I'm done, wave my flag, I'm
(41:54):
done. But it's because you were trying
airplanes. Yeah, I couldn't even stay in my
house by myself. So the idea of getting on an
airplane and flying somewhere was was pretty ambitious,
perhaps. Really.
Also, can I just say what you said about how like everyone
else is experiencing these things?
You're not alone in it. I was just on a podcast and they
were like, what is your mantra? And I was like, my mantra is
(42:17):
that no one has ever had an original thought because that is
so comforting to me to be like, you're not special.
Everyone has done this exact same thing.
Like anything you've thought of,any scary thing that's like,
you're fine, this has happened to other people and you're not
crazy or alone. And so I just want to say like
snaps for what you said, you were saying it and I was like,
yay, other people like use this as a coping strategy.
(42:40):
It's genius. Yeah, yeah, entirely.
And but I think the other copingstrategy is to say this won't
work for me because it feels so uncomfortable to even think
about it. Because when that when I first
started to read this stuff whereit said, come on, you know,
you've got to beckon it. You've got to do this.
There were times that I couldn'teven look at an aeroplane in the
(43:01):
sky without becoming anxious. And and the idea that someone
said you're going to get on an aeroplane and when you have a
panic attack, you're going to try and make it even bigger than
it was to start with. And I'm looking at AI couldn't
even go to an airport. It was just like, you must be
kidding me. But actually it was all true.
And, and I think if, if you know, if you're sitting there
(43:23):
thinking, no, no, not for me, not for me, not for me, you
might be wrong. And actually there might be a
way out of this. And I think that's that's
important that we, we just try to override that immediate
because immediately Gollum's turned up and he's gone.
No, no, no, no, no, no, we're not trying any of that.
We're not trying any of that. We're just going to stay here.
(43:45):
Thank you very much. I'm in charge.
And I think if you recognize that all of that discomfort is
just the fear keeping you there and it's just ruining our lives
to be controlled by this. And I, I think most of us want a
bit more than that. Yes, of course we all want to
live, no matter how that looks for us, and staying just inside
(44:07):
in our own little bubble rarely gets us what we want in life.
Yeah, absolutely. And I know for me it felt like
I've just been living this lie. So, you know, if somebody said
let's go here and would you likea lift and I would say I'll get
in the car. I can't do that.
So I'd say, Oh no, no, it's OK, I need to go somewhere else
afterwards, I'll drive myself. So you, you're just constantly
(44:30):
thinking of all these safety behaviours, of these strategies,
of these lies to avoid those situations.
Because I didn't want anyone to know, because not that I was
ashamed of it, I didn't want theattention.
I didn't want anyone to say, well, why is why, why you don't
look anxious? What's wrong with you?
Why, why is that a problem? I didn't want the interrogation
(44:53):
because I couldn't explain it. And it, it just becomes a
secret, just just a, a big secret that's just constant.
It's it's very hard work to do that.
Yes, that is like, I think that's actually an awesome way
to end the episode cuz I think that's how you opened the
episode was being like everyone just wants to know like you look
perfectly fine. What do you mean you have this
(45:14):
going on? But it's because it's such a big
secret to figure out all these little, like you said, those
little lies to be like, no, I'm perfectly fine.
I'm perfectly, perfectly healthyand functioning.
And then you, you know, are justlike panicking with Golem in
your mind. Yeah, absolutely.
And isn't that just masking where you know, for the
neurodivergent? It's just masking.
Wow, yes, I know. I'm actually feeling a little
(45:37):
called out right now. I am the queen of little white
lies, so I don't have to socialize with people.
So. So for the listeners who enjoyed
hearing from you because my gosh, I did.
Where can I find you? Are you on social media?
I know obviously you write some awesome books, which I have to
just like shout out your book. Women and Girls with Autism is
(45:57):
like one of my favorites. It's, it's quite a big thing in
the autism world, this idea thatso many women are coming forward
at that sort of sort of time of life.
I don't do any social media apart from a bit of a rubbishy
arts Instagram, which is under adifferent name.
And if people can find me they're very welcome to.
But it's just me. I'm, I'm a serial crafter.
(46:19):
Those are, those are my intense interests.
I, I do all sorts of bits and pieces.
That's my thing. But no, I just do diagnosis at
the moment through a company called Axia who are in the UK,
in Chester, who are very well known and well respected for the
highly neurodivergent staff and their work.
(46:42):
Obviously all my books. I used to have a training
organization which is now run bymy beautiful autistic ADHD
daughter Jess Hendricks, which is called.
The website is a little bit outdated.
It's www.aspergerhyphentraining.com
and Jess does assessments and webinars and she does all the
(47:03):
training now because she doesn'thave the panic attacks.
So if anyone wants to talk to her, she's she just says she's a
mini me. She she she she's not a mini me.
She's taller than me. But we look very similar and we
sound very similar. But don't tell her that she's my
sister because she hates it. Oh.
My. Gosh, it happens.
I was a young mom. It happens.
(47:25):
People did that to my mom. I hated it when I was younger
and now I'm like, that's right. I am her sister.
Oh, that's funny. OK, Honestly, good for you for
not being on social media. I know that that can be such a
such a a soul sucker sometimes. So just having your little art
account kind of off on the side,like just use it for joy and
that's all. Yes, exactly.
(47:48):
It's too stressful for me. I can't do it.
Yeah, No, not for me. I get that.
OK. So if they're in kind of that UK
area, if they want to maybe reach out and see about getting
like a diagnosis or that kind of.
Thing or anywhere in the world mostly online these days so
everything's kind of, you know, remotely so yeah.
We love that. I mean, hey, that's how we're
talking right now is remotely. So exactly.
(48:10):
Exactly. Yay.
Well, Sarah, thank you so much for being on the podcast.
This has been an interview I've been looking forward to, so
genuinely thank you. But listeners, that is all we
have for you today. This is Sarah, I'm Clark.
And otherwise, this has been chronically the sickest podcast,
you know. That's all folks.
(48:33):
Thank you so much for listening.If you like this episode, click
that follow up button on your podcast app of choice to get
notified every other week. You can find the podcast on
Instagram and TikTok at Chronically the Sickest Podcast.
Let me know if you have any questions or just want to chat.
I love hearing from y'all. Until next time, I'm Clark, and
this has been Chronically the Sickest podcast you know.
(49:02):
Disclaimer, this is a conversational podcast and while
we make sure our diagnosis journey, symptoms and treatment
plan, this is not medical advice.
If you have any questions regarding your health, please
reach out to your doctor and have a great day.
Hello folks, and welcome to Chronically the Sickest, the
podcast where we talk about all things that make us chronically
the sickest people we know. I'm Clark, your host.
It's nice to chat with you this week.
Join us as we dive into the episode, sit back, relax, and
enjoy the show. Hello Sarah, and welcome to
(00:33):
Chronically the Sickest Podcast.I'm so excited to have you.
Hello. Hi, thank you for having me.
I am someone who is familiar with your work, but if the
listeners out there aren't, tellus a little bit about yourself,
who you are, what you're doing. OK, my name is Sarah Hendricks.
I am diagnosed as autistic and have ADHD, and over the past 20
(00:59):
years or so I've been working asa specialist in the field of
autism and neurodivergence. I was a trainer, a conference
speaker. I've run some voluntary sector
projects all around autism and Asperger's syndrome as it as it
was then. I've also written six books
around the same topic. The most well received one was
(01:22):
called Women and Girls on the Autism Spectrum, which is now
out in its second edition. I have another book out in
October which I wrote with my daughter could called Could I
Really Be Autistic? Which is all about the kind of
journey from suspicion of diagnosis towards the idea of
whether you want to have an assessment or self diagnose or
(01:44):
whatever. And I'm currently writing the
complete guide to Audi HD which will be out in January in 2027.
Oh my goodness. Wow, so many new books.
How exciting. When I diagnose people, that's
what I do. Yeah, that's that's my job.
My main job is writing books anddiagnosing people these days.
That's amazing. No, that was a great like ending
(02:05):
to end cap all the things you just said.
You were like, right? So this is actually what I do.
Yeah, yeah, I forgot the currentjob that that that pays my
bills. Believe me, I get that.
If someone asks me what I do, I rarely say that I'm a podcaster.
I say, oh, this is my day job and then also I do these other
things. Yeah, yeah, I just forget.
It's just blankness quite often.So I have notes and I still
(02:26):
forgot. You're doing great.
No, you answered that. Great.
Well, thank you for kind of explaining who you are.
I, I know that a couple people hopefully will know who you are.
If they don't, they're gonna be super, I think, surprised and
excited to hear what you have tosay.
I hope. So.
I hope so too. So I do always ask the question
(02:47):
to kind of lead us into our topic, which is what do you
think makes you chronically the sickest person you know?
I think it's because, like a lotof neurodivergent people, I have
so many things wrong with me that make me appear to be some
kind of hypochondriac. I am always uncomfortable.
I've always got an ache, a pain,a headache, something that's not
(03:11):
working properly or I'm uncomfortable in the environment
or I'm anxious or this or this or whatever it just seems to
add. Up.
That is a very relatable reason to be the sickest person you
know. I feel that it really is.
You're like, oh, I got this one diagnosis and they're like,
(03:32):
surprise, there's actually five more right behind that one.
Yes. And people go, I thought it was
your leg that hurt, but no, it'syour shoulder.
And I know you've got this and now this is hurting too.
And oh, you're sensitive to light and you can't sit on the
chair without a cushion. And it's.
Yeah, it just goes. On of course, of course, No, we
could totally get into, yeah, like the convergence between
(03:52):
like chronic illness, neurodivergence, all those
things. It's such like a.
It's like a circle that just goes round and round.
Yeah, yeah, for sure. Well, we kind of talked about it
before we started recording, butwe wanted to focus on the
subject of agoraphobia, which I thought was a very interesting
(04:13):
thing to focus on because like we were saying, it's not talked
about a lot. Yeah, absolutely.
And I think it's well known thatneurodivergent people are
particularly have a strong tendency for anxiety generally
because often we find the world complicated, confusing,
uncertain, worrying. It changes all the time.
(04:33):
There's loud noises. So our, our system seems to tip
into fight or flight, you know, sometimes constantly.
And you know, a lot, a lot of people would say that and, and
that's been my extreme most of my life, but I, I began to
become agoraphobic about 10-10 years or so.
And I just thought it would be interesting to think to just to
(04:55):
share a little bit, I suppose about and obviously this is not
just for autistic people, this, this kind of stuff happens to
anybody, but just that just thatidea of how small life can
become and how difficult it can become.
But on the outside, you can still look like a very capable
person, a professional person. And that it ends up being a bit
(05:16):
of a, can be a bit of a secret sometimes.
And certainly it was for me thatit was, yeah, kind of trying to
live in this way without people knowing.
Yeah, of course. Because I mean, even when you
think of the word agoraphobia, Ifeel like people kind of think
of like a hermit, like someone who never leaves their home and
when in fact, you can still be aperson, you're just having to
(05:39):
deal with a lot more on top of that.
Yeah, absolutely. So I think certainly in the past
people thought that it was aboutbeing afraid of open spaces, but
it's not that it's being afraid,it's the fear of the fear.
So it's an anxiety related to having a panic attack.
And so therefore you tend to avoid locations and places and
(06:02):
situations where you might have a panic attack.
So this is not a kind of anxietything where you get really,
really, really anxious. This is this is panic, this is
terror, this is Get Me Out of here.
Your whole system is just screaming.
Something really bad is going tohappen here.
And once that's happened to you a few times because it's so
(06:24):
horrible, you you just sort of build up this idea of trying to
avoid that. So you're mentally thinking all
of the time, if I go out today, what will be the steps involved
in my journey that might put me in a situation where I'm, I
might panic. And the risk of that means that
(06:44):
often you end up staying at home, which I think is where
this idea is that you're afraid,you know, of open spaces or
being away from home, but it's avoiding those kind of things.
So within the diagnostic criteria are things like public
transport. So public transport is is really
huge for people with with agoraphobia because you can't
escape and you can't leave and you can't get help.
(07:08):
And this idea of I can't go there because then I can't get
help. Help for what?
I mean, who knows? It's all just this nonsense
really in your mind because you're not, you're not in any
danger. You're just on a bus or you're
in a lift or you're. So it's not a kind of autistic
fear of public transport where you don't like sitting next to
(07:29):
people or you, you don't know ifthe bus might go on a different
route, which is much more about unpredictability.
This isn't just kind of irrational, but I, I won't be
able to get off without people looking at me.
I might fall on the floor, I might faint, I might vomit, I
might make a fool of myself. So the safest place to be is, is
(07:50):
just stay where you are and, andremain with either going places
with a safe person. So my partner Keith has been my
safe person for for almost 10 years.
I couldn't stay in my own home without him being there.
It's just been really dreadful. It ended my career as a public
speaker because I began to have panic attacks while I was
(08:11):
speaking on stage and I couldn'ttravel independently.
I used to travel all over the world flying trains, buses, and
I wasn't able to do any of thosethings.
So yeah, it's it's massive and horrible.
Yeah, it sounds like it. That's so frustrating to feel
like you go from like this trulycapable person to just like,
(08:35):
like almost a shell of yourself a little bit.
Enormously so, yeah. And I think it's really, people
often think, oh, you're afraid of flying.
And I say, no, I'm, I'm not afraid of flying.
I like flying. It's fun.
You go places, I can look out the window.
The world's beautiful. But something in my brain has
(08:55):
decided that that environment where I can't get off is, is
absolutely terrifying. And therefore the fear of what
might happen in that environment.
And the reality is nothing happens.
And and that's that's the truth is nothing happens.
And I've done as I would being me and being autistic.
(09:17):
I've done a lot of reading aboutthis.
I've done a lot of, you know, why is this happening?
How do I get. I'm just being so annoyed with
it. Just like what is this?
You just you're showing up today.
Are you OK? Here we are, Mr. Panic, you're
here. Are you?
Yeah. Just reading an awful lot about
what it is, what it means. I'm on the way out of it.
(09:39):
Really, really on the on the wayout.
But it but it's hard. It's hard going.
Yeah, it sounds like it. The way you're describing it is
almost like a little unwanted houseguest that just pops in and
is like, hey, something horribleis going to happen.
You're like, I didn't need that.Thank you.
Yeah, absolutely. And that's certainly one of the
(09:59):
techniques that is suggested to almost personify this thing as a
whatever you want, give it a name, you know, visage it as a
creature or something that's it's just irritating.
It's just irritating. It doesn't.
And the other, the other part istrying to kind of take back the
power. So the more energy you give this
(10:20):
thing, this fear, this panic, the more control it has over you
and it it's trying to take that back and say actually I'm, I'm
in charge here. I'm in control.
And sometimes for me, I think envisaging that and I'm not very
good at visualizing anything. I'm not great at that, but
having this sense, but it's a thing that's showing up and
(10:42):
making it kind of small and weasely and a bit feeble and
pathetic. It can be kind of a little bit
helpful to sort of think, right?You can just F off, yes, just
leave, you know? Real.
I like that. OK, now that we kind of like,
understand a little bit more about what agoraphobia is, can I
(11:05):
ask, like, what your experience has been like?
When, like, when did you first start realizing, like, this is
what it might? Because he said it was 10 years
ago, right? Yeah, yeah, I think I'm not.
You know, we guessed, don't we? When things start, we we look at
our lives and we go, oh, that's what it was.
But I think for me it was a whole combination of stuff.
(11:26):
I was in my mid 40s, my youngestchild to death just left home.
I moved to a foreign country forthe first time.
I was doing a lot of traveling, a lot of flying, a lot of public
speaking. So my body was just, there was a
lot of adrenaline going through all the time, a lot of stress, a
lot of general performance anxiety and those kinds of
(11:48):
things. And then I think it was also
perimenopause. I think probably that may well
have been the the final straw which tipped it into this thing.
So initially I just found myselfbeing just a little bit more
anxious wherever I went. I didn't like crowded trains
anymore and I would wait until something quieter came along.
(12:12):
If I went on an aeroplane, I would want the extra legroom
seat. I would want no one sitting
next. It was just this slowly, just a
sense of this kind of growing anxiety.
And then one day I was at a conference in a, in a, in a big
conference room with maybe 400 people.
And then midway through this presentation, I've done like
(12:34):
1000 presentations. It was my job.
It was kind of easy. And suddenly in the middle of
this presentation, I just began to have this, this panic attack
and was just standing on a stagetrying to continue and trying to
just fight my own brain. And, and I, I, the only person
(12:56):
in the room that noticed was my partner, because obviously he
knows me and he knows what was likely to be coming out of my
mouth. And, and all of a sudden I
started to sort of kind of be a little bit gibberish and started
to rely really heavily on the sly, you know, the PowerPoint
slides. So in my head, I've got this
(13:17):
part of me just going get out ofhere, get out of here, get out
of just just get, just go, just go, just car is pumping.
It's just go, just go. It's, you know, terrible danger,
terrible danger. And then the other part of me
is, is carrying on talking and is just doing this thing.
And, and then eventually it subsided and I carried on and,
and I just, I just did it. And afterwards my partner said
(13:39):
what happened? Halfway through something
happened. You just started talking
rubbish. And it was, and I, it was, it
was just terrifying the concept of being in front of all of
those people and that happening.But it was my job and it was the
only way I I could earn my living.
And so I kept doing it and I kept getting on the stage and
(14:02):
every single time, almost every time, sometimes it wouldn't
happen, but almost every time, even in small rooms of maybe 10
people, I would, I would have this, this panic attack halfway
through and just kept doing it and just kept doing it.
And then people go, oh, well, itcan't have been that bad
because, you know, nobody noticed.
But that's certainly not how it felt on the inside.
(14:25):
But it, I didn't know what else to do.
I was just, it's my job. What I do is how I earn money.
And so yeah, I kept, I kept going until one point I just, I
just couldn't keep going anymore.
And I just said I'm done. Yeah, wow.
Oh my gosh. You were like saying you were
like, and then this horrible thing happened and like, only my
(14:45):
partner noticed. And I was expecting you to be
like. And then I stopped and you were
like, Nope. And then I kept doing it for a
little while because like you said, you almost had to.
You're like, this is what I do. Yeah, yeah.
I didn't know how to get anotherjob.
I didn't I, you know, I didn't, didn't really know what, what to
do. So I obviously like you read
(15:06):
everything and and you read everything and it says that what
you shouldn't do is leave the situation.
Because if you leave the situation, your brain begins to
learn that it was correct, that you were in danger.
So there you are going, you know, panic, panic, anxiety,
(15:26):
anxiety, all of these physical symptoms, red face sweating,
palpitating, dripping with sweat, absolutely pouring is
vile. And then you leave the
situation, you calm down and your brain says, see it was
dangerous over there. We were right to leave when this
is actually the worst thing you can do.
What you have to do is you have to stay and then you will calm
(15:49):
down because you always do eventually.
And then the idea is that eventually your brain says, OK,
well, there was nothing bad happening.
So, you know, we, we don't need to do that anymore.
We don't need to switch on the smoke alarm.
There's no fire. It's all OK.
And I did this with the, with the public speaking and I did
(16:10):
this with public transport, but it never went away.
I did it like 200 times and it still didn't go away.
And eventually I said I just, I just, my little white flag of
surrender came out and I said that that's it.
I'm done. I'm not flying anymore.
I'm not doing any public chat. I'm just not doing it anymore.
(16:31):
I give up. That's it.
And I think in hindsight, for me, that was the right thing to
do. I think perhaps I was in the
middle of perimenopause and I think I was just exhausted and I
just had, I had nowhere to recuperate and nowhere to
recover. If you keep putting your system
(16:52):
into this, get on a plane, get on a train, get on a stage, I
think eventually you can't recover.
You're just in this heightened state all of the time.
So And so I just stopped all of it for about 6 or seven years.
And yeah, I never stayed in my house by myself, couldn't get in
a lift, a car with somebody elsedriving it.
(17:13):
It was just a very, very small little life for a very long
time. Yeah, I mean, I'm sitting here
and I'm like, well, I don't know, that makes sense to me.
I would also be like, I'm done like I am.
I can't I I also almost wonder. I feel like this is going to be
both a statement and a question.Like, I almost wonder if being
(17:34):
autistic also played a role in that because I'm wondering
you're saying, you know, like the heightened emotions of like,
of like everything is all the time so much and not having a
place to recuperate. I'm wondering if you would hear
differently from someone who's like, right?
Obviously I'm doing the like kind of exposure and response
almost of like you got to try and then like let your brain
(17:56):
calm down. I wonder if that's different for
neurotypical people or even likeyou said, like with
perimenopause. Do you think like that played a
role at all? Potsies, listen up.
We both know that precinctopy sucks.
Fainting to passing out when you're alone though, that is 2
(18:17):
thumbs down. It's so nerve wracking.
Like what if I pass out and hit my head or I start getting dizzy
while I'm driving? Am I going to be safe or just in
general am I going to be safe? As a disabled woman?
That anxiety, that is what gets you.
But I don't have that anymore. Well I do have anxiety.
(18:40):
I am an OCD girlie but not aboutpassing out or my safety because
I just click my Invisi Wear necklace and both my family and
emergency personnel are alerted.The dizzies are scary no matter
how many times it happens, but knowing that I have a backup
plan is what makes me feel a little bit better, so maybe
(19:02):
that'll help you too. Using code SICKEST for 10% off
on your Invisi Wear purchase at the link in your description is
an option. Sending you salty vibes.
Okie dokie. Anyway.
It could well be. I mean, obviously I can't speak
(19:24):
for everyone who's had this, butyeah, I think if your whole
system is heightened most of thetime and every activity that you
do, which I was doing was, was heightening that again.
And just everyday life. Then I wonder if you don't know
where, where calm is because younever or you rarely feel that
perhaps. I think also I'm not good at
(19:46):
knowing my limits. I, I, I believe I have a
lexithymia. I don't know when something's
too much until it's too much. So I, I just go and I go and I
go and I'm probably running on adrenaline and the ADHD kicks in
and I'm really excited and I'm having a whale of time.
And then it's just crash and crash and crash and it's almost
(20:08):
like. I don't learn that, that I and
I'm I don't get those signals that it's, it's just I'm just
under resourced. This is this is a kind of
thought that I've I've been learning about this concept that
if you're constantly under resourced and I think a lot of
neurodivergent people are a lot of people who experience anxiety
(20:29):
are that you, you begin every task already under resourced.
Wow. OK.
Yeah, that makes total sense. So you're already depleted when
you're going to do something stressful or something
complicated or something new or something, you know,
overwhelming in any particular way because just your being in
(20:52):
the world you've. Got.
Kids, you've got a job, you've got neighbors and you've just
got stuff. And I suspect that when we know
that chronic illness is so big in in autism, which I guess
potentially is just that under resourcedness depletion for just
many, many years and eventually that we just the body just goes,
(21:13):
Nah, we're done here. You are going to rest and we're
going to make you. Yes, sometimes how it feels to
me. Yeah, no, that makes a lot of
sense. The parallels between chronic
illness and autism is so, so common.
You're right. Absolutely, and there is.
Researchers are suggesting that anyone who comes in complaining
(21:34):
of symptoms of chronic illness should be screened for autism.
It's so big. It's so big.
The crossover. Well darn, I'm wondering maybe
if that would have saved me sometime.
I think it will take a very longtime for the average GP to get
that message. Yeah, there's certainly that
(21:55):
understanding at an academic level that it, the crossover is,
is absolutely enormous. Yeah, OK.
Thank you for answering that question.
I know that you can't necessarily, like you said,
speak for everyone. Obviously you're just a person.
But I just thought it was so interesting the way that you you
phrased it like not like not knowing what or where calm is.
(22:18):
So it's like, how am I supposed to get to that state of, oh,
it's OK, teach my brain to be OK?
Because your brain is never at that state of, of being.
Absolutely, absolutely. And I had a wonderful therapist
and something she said, which was a really, again, it's really
interesting image to me was like, you have nowhere to land.
(22:39):
And it's that sense of landing, of stability, of stillness, of
right, I'm home now, I'm there. But it's almost this sense of
constantly being in movement andbusy and using all of your small
resources, and you don't know where to go.
Where is the calm place? If home's not calm, If work's
(22:59):
not calm, If you know, where do you go?
If all of your environments are very stressful and very busy,
there is no yeah know where to land.
Wow, that's real. That's real smart, real deep.
I'm going to have to go talk to my own therapist about that.
That's like life changing. OK.
So you kind of said like you took almost like six or seven
(23:21):
years off of doing public speaking, traveling, all those
things, which like you said, youlove doing those things, but it
became too, too much with like the panic setting and all the
time. Do you plan to do that at all in
the future? Like how are you doing now?
Because you kind of said that you're working towards kind of
(23:41):
figuring out how to like equalize with the agoraphobia.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think once I again, I'm
very slow off the mark. It took me about 7 years to work
out that I was in perimenopause and I just assumed I was going
crazy and was just very anxious and that was how it's always
going to be. So I think when some of those
(24:04):
symptoms, well, I think first ofall, sometimes just knowing that
there's a reason for this stuff is helpful because at least you
can put it in a little box and go, OK, that's just this thing
kicking off again or, or, or whatever that is.
So I had a really big rest and then I, I felt myself coming
towards the, the end of towards the end of perimenopause and
(24:26):
things feeling a little bit better.
And so I basically just sort of put myself on a bit of a program
and I made a really big list. So it's kind of CBT.
I know a little bit about CBT and I know some people,
particularly neurodivergent people are not always fans of
CBT. But for me, if it's adapted to,
to where I am and where I want to go, rather than someone
(24:46):
else's idea of what the quality of life looks like or goals look
like, I find it really logical and really helpful.
So I, I read all about what happens in the body when you,
when, when you panic. I read all about this stuff and
I made a great big list for myself on my little phone of all
the things I wanted to do in, inCBT terms, I think it's called
(25:07):
like an anxiety hierarchy. So it's a listing order from the
things that you perceive you perceive, not what the world
perceives as being the easiest. So the ones that are kind of on
a, on A1 on a scale of one to 10.
And then I made this big list all in order from kind of ones
to twos to threes to fours to upto up to 10's.
(25:30):
The airplanes are up there at #10 and #1 was that probably
something like going, going on abus or, you know, sitting in the
back of a car or something, something, something like that
or getting into a lift that thatwas also impossible for me.
And so I slowly worked my way down this list 1 by 1.
What the theory suggests, which I think works for me, is that if
(25:54):
you do the number ones and the number ones become zeros almost
easy, then everything else in the list kind of shunts forward
a little bit. So your number twos are now
number ones. So they're a little bit closer
now because, OK, well we stood in a lift for one floor, OK,
maybe we could do a bus for one stop maybe.
(26:16):
So it, I worked my way all the way through through this list.
So even go to the cinema I had, I had to sit on the end seat, I
had to look at the plan. I had to know where the door
was, you know how the layout was, the theatre or anything
like that. Couldn't do any of those things
if it was going to be busy crowd.
Even going to the toilet in a public place in a restaurant and
(26:38):
and and closing the door made mepanic.
It was crazy, crazily small things that that that would
really, really upset me. So I basically worked my way
kind of all the way through this, this list bit by bit.
So the, the idea is this is there's a few things that might
be useful as sort of strategies and things, if that's helpful.
(27:00):
The first thing you need to do and to understand is that it
can't harm you. And, and that's huge and, and as
a logical autistic person, if you've had 200 panic attacks and
you haven't yet fainted, died, made a fool of yourself,
vomited, whatever, there's a reasonable chance that actually
(27:21):
you're wrong in believing that that's going to happen because
it hasn't. And the reality is it never
will. And The thing is, I hope anybody
listening who has these panic attacks that there's this
sensation where it just builds and builds and builds and builds
and builds. And it feels like that any
second, any second, you're goingto tip into this terrible place
(27:45):
where you lose control or fall over or have a heart attack or
something and you feel like you're on the edge.
You're absolutely on the edge ofthat.
But it never goes there ever. And actually eventually it just
dies out and calms itself down. The body just can't sustain
that. So the first trick is actually
(28:06):
genuinely believing that this won't hurt me, that it never has
and it and it never will. So you're just trying to
slightly have a little crack of doubt in the fear.
So when you fear the fear, the fear is just a bit smaller maybe
than it than it perhaps was at the time.
The other really scary thing youhave to do is you have to tell
(28:29):
it that if it wants a fight, you're here for the fight.
So come on, You want to panic, bring it on.
Come on. And that's terrifying.
And it's the thing that most people who have panic attacks
just think. You must be joking.
There's no way I'm doing that. But once you do that, it
(28:52):
dissipates almost immediately. It's quite astonishing.
And the final thing, the main thing you need to do is to
breathe, is to breathe in a particular way.
If your breathing is under control, it's incredibly
difficult for your body to go into a state of panic.
So you just have to maintain this breathing, maintain this
breathing, and there you are panicking, thinking it's not
working, it's not working, it's not working, but you just
(29:14):
breathe and you breathe and you breathe.
And then eventually it starts tokind of get under control.
But it's really exhausting and it's really hard work.
Yeah, who knew breathing could be so hard to do?
I know just to keep it going. Wow, those are some awesome tips
and tricks. And I love the way that you're,
(29:36):
like tying in your personal experience to them because it's
not just someone being like, oh,you should try this thing when
you're like, it's hecking hard to do that thing.
Like, sure, yeah, you tell me todo that thing exactly.
But you're saying it. Yeah, And that's because that's
what I was taught. It's what I read.
It's what I learned. Eventually you just think, I
(29:57):
want my life back. I don't want this.
I I can't stay in anybody's house.
I can't visit my family. I can't do anything on my own.
This is no way to live. And so for me, it was about
right. I need, I need to learn about
this and I need to, to to find things.
And if other people tell me thatthey work, I have to give it a
(30:17):
go. And no matter how terrifying
that is for me, I, I have to give it a go.
And I think, I think also the other thing that helped me was
understanding that this is just,and that sometimes this is a
protective fear response. So maybe it was triggered by a
situation in the past that was abit difficult or it was a very
stressful time in your life and that your body and your mind
(30:40):
just trying to protect you. That's all they were trying to
do. Nobody's trying to make this
hard for you. They're just trying to keep you
safe, but it's sort of outgrown the situation.
You don't need it anymore. You're OK.
It's overprotective. It's it's like the smoke alarm
going off when you make toast. We we don't need you.
Thank you. Thank you for warning us about
(31:01):
the smoke. But it's all good.
And I think if you can think about it like that, it's like
it's trying its best to look after you, but it's just made an
error. It's thinks the situation is
dangerous, but it, but it's really not dangerous.
And the other thing I do when I'm feeling in this way is I
look at people around me. I went on a on a ferry, which I
couldn't do at all unless I wentstraight to the cabin, fell
(31:22):
asleep, didn't know anything. I went on a ferry and it was in
the daytime. So you're in a big thing in the
middle of the sea. There's no escape.
This is this is agoraphobia, youknow, terror, the terror spot
for me. But what I did was I stood there
and I went, oh, look, these people have brought their
children onto this boat. These people are having a glass
(31:43):
of wine. These people are running around
the deck, they're enjoying themselves, they're on holiday.
If they're not bothered, then then I don't need to be
bothered. So other people become your
barometer that if they're calm, then then you know, they would
bring their children on this boat if it was a dangerous place
to be. So, so that is also something
(32:05):
that's that's really important to me to, to just give us some
perspective because you're in your own mind going, my God, the
world's going to end. And then you just go, oh, but
everyone else is just having a coffee and laughing.
And so I must be wrong. That's how it works for me.
I must be wrong. My perception must be wrong.
(32:27):
Right, you're like using logic to out logic your brain.
Yes, yes. And I, it'd be interesting to
know how non neurodivergent people manage some of this stuff
and whether they, you know, justdo the same things, the same
techniques. Maybe they do.
But yeah, but for me, it has to be like, well, if that, if that
is true, then this cannot be. So get a grip.
(32:50):
Pack it in. This is, you know, we're going
on holiday. That's what's happening.
Bugger off. That's fair.
I, I honestly kind of love the way you were like, well, they
brought their kids here, so how,how unsafe could it possibly be?
And I'm like, I'm going to startusing that.
OK, like. Exactly.
And I wonder if that's just something quite interesting
about anxiety generally, you know, to think about maybe
(33:12):
particularly when you're a divergent people just to look
around. And then it doesn't mean that
your anxiety is invalid or wrongor any of those kind of things.
But sometimes it is just our perception that is, is hypened
because we're uncomfortable withthis, with this or whatever.
But actually, I, I just sometimes just think, well, you
(33:32):
know what else is OK. So maybe I could be.
Maybe I could be too. Right, right.
Like just giving yourself that leeway to be like, look.
Yeah, yeah. I'm not being just trapped in
your own bubble of perception. And, you know, it becomes very
insular and actually just looking around you anyway is
also a shortcut out of anxiety often, isn't it, to notice a
(33:56):
smell or a bird or a, you know, a noise or something that's
outside of the nonsense that just spins and spins and spins
inside our heads? Yes, out of your head.
Right. The biggest tip of the day is
just don't be in your head. And you're like, thank you.
Yes, we'll do. Yes, just just get out.
(34:17):
Well, like people like to say inlike a joking manner online,
they're like go touch grass, butlike literally go go touch
grass. Like just go lay out in the sun
for a hot 2nd and just feel likea person for a second.
Absolutely, yeah. And showers, I think that I know
not everybody likes the feel of water upon them, but for me,
just a shower is, is just, it's hard to, for me to think in a,
(34:42):
in a, you know, an obsessive fashion when there's all of that
heat and sensation that it's just all-encompassing in a good
way. And it's like, that's it.
We're done. We're back, back to normal,
reset. And off we off we go.
Or splashing your face with coldwater or anything like that.
I think it's good for calm in the system.
(35:02):
I was actually going to ask, have you ever done like the, the
like vagus nerve maneuvers that people do like for anxiety, like
they put ice on their chest or like something like that?
I know that that's helped some people with anxiety.
Yeah, no, I haven't. I've certainly splashed my face
and things like that. But yeah, yeah, no, not, not
anything particular. But yeah, I think, yeah, I
think, I think it's something like that, isn't it?
(35:22):
It's just calming down the system or refocusing it
somewhere else to. Yeah, it's like a physical
version of like what you said about like looking around and
saying that everyone else is on holiday.
You're literally being like, look, there is ice on your wrist
or there's water on your face. Like you're you're dead.
You're here. Exactly.
Yes, it's all fine. Yes.
(35:44):
It's hard to think about yourself as panicking when
there's a three-year old playingfootball, you know, or
something. You you just think, No, really.
Come on. You can just embarrass your
brain out of being panicked. You're like, come on now, come
on. Like they're having a cup of
coffee and you're having a meltdown.
Really. This is how you want to act
right now? And you're like.
Absolutely, yes. And that's, and that's certainly
(36:06):
for me how it's felt that it's that it, there's sort of me in
here going, look, we're good, we're good, we're having a good
time, we're fine. And then there's something else
going. It's literally, it's like a,
it's like a toddler, like a dog,just like screaming in the
background. You're like, I'm trying to watch
a show right now. Can you stop please?
Exactly, you're just so tedious.Will you please leave?
(36:28):
I relate weirdly so much to yourexperience.
Like, I don't have agoraphobia, but I'm someone with OCD.
So like a lot of the things thatyou're talking about, I'm like,
yeah, I've heard of this. So like, I relate to that a lot.
Like, even like you said, visualizing your anxiety as like
a being of some sort is so helpful because like we're
saying, you can really be like, so tedious.
(36:50):
Please stop. Yes, yes.
And just that visualization of I'm in charge, I have power here
and I'm feeding it nothing. That's the other thing I think.
And I think this idea of visualizing it as a being is,
and I will often say I am givingyou nothing.
There is no food, no energy. The more fear you give it, the
(37:11):
bigger it gets and it and it wins.
So it's just I'm, I'm not actually going to give you
anything. I'm just going to carry on with
my day whilst I'm anxious or panicking.
But you are having nothing and then it kind of shrivels up and
dies. It kind of goes oh gives up.
That's funny, yes. In my head it's a bit of a
parasite. So you know what I didn't want
to hear anyway? Exactly.
(37:32):
I think for me, I, I imagine it as a kind of little Gollum type
feature, just some kind of dirty, you know, creepy little
thing that's just needs a bit ofa kick or something.
It's, you know, it's not, it's not a nice thing.
I'm not a violent person, but you're good.
My life has been severely restricted by this thing, so I I
(37:53):
it can it can do 1. I'm sorry.
I don't know why, but imagining it, it's gone.
And I'm just being like, can youjust get out of here and like,
I'm sorry. Oh, my gosh.
I don't know why. That visualization was hilarious
to me. Thank you.
Yeah. That was great.
And I swear really badly. So I, yeah, I'm, I'm always
swearing very horrifically at it.
That's fair. Same here.
I try not to swear my mom listens to this podcast but.
(38:15):
Yeah. But yeah, I hear you.
When I used to do conference speaking on my on my notes, it
always had Don't swear written in capital letters on top of my
notes. Of course, they're like, Sarah,
we can't have you come back. You were just like, like
morbidly obscene. You can't be saying something
like that on stage. And you're like, Dang it.
(38:35):
Oh well, self acceptance. We love that.
OK, now that we kind of have like covered who you are and
like what this is and what you've been doing to help
yourself and maybe help other people with that information, is
there anything else that you want to leave the listeners with
before we kind of close out? This is your friendly reminder
(39:01):
that you are listening to this for free, learning about chronic
illness, mental health, and other important topics for free.
But this does cost time and money to make, and you could be
getting a lot more. Click the Patreon link in the
description to get access to video episodes, free merch, and
(39:21):
bonus interviews where we may talk about things that have to
be cut from the main apps. And did I mention that there's
no ads? Not only do you get these very
cool things, but you can also support the pod because like I
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(39:43):
That's my pitch, anyway. I think hopefully, and this is
not something else that I learntwas that each of us thinks that
what we're experiencing is somehow special, that it's it's
OK for everyone else. But mine is different, mine is
(40:05):
worse. None of these strategies will
work for me because somehow my mine is mine is bigger than
yours. And, and you know, you've just,
you've just not had it so bad orsomething.
And and that's not true. Yours is not special.
It's the same stuff that's goingon for everybody.
Of course, some people will havethese things, these attacks in
different situations and some ofthem will be bigger or worse
(40:26):
than others. But it actually, it isn't
special. It's just ordinary and and
believe very strongly that for the majority of people that you
can make progress on this if youstart small.
And I think that anxiety hierarchy, you can Google it.
I think it has different names, but it's this idea of listing a
bunch of things that you currently you can't do or, or
(40:48):
find a super, super uncomfortable and putting them
in order and you start with the number ones.
There's no point starting with the number 10s because you're
going to fail because it's too big, it's too much.
And that's what I realized that I was doing.
My under resourced self was trying to get on aeroplanes,
which were number 10s when actually it should just have
been trying to stay in the houseovernight by itself, which might
(41:10):
have been a number one or a #2. And and that's where we begin.
And this is the same for all anxiety.
It's not just agoraphobia, it's not just panic attacks.
If we want to think to ourselves, I have goals.
I want to extend my, my experience in a way I'm not
comfortable with, with what I what I do.
We start with the easy stuff so that we get quick wins and then
(41:33):
we can feel confident and able and then we move a little bit
higher up. Don't start getting on
airplanes. That's a stupid thing to do.
That's what I was trying to do over and over again.
I should have gone back to the beginning and and it took me a
long time to realize that. That makes sense, though,
because you said that at the beginning you were like, I kept
trying. I did 200 times.
And at some point I was like, I'm done, wave my flag, I'm
(41:54):
done. But it's because you were trying
airplanes. Yeah, I couldn't even stay in my
house by myself. So the idea of getting on an
airplane and flying somewhere was was pretty ambitious,
perhaps. Really.
Also, can I just say what you said about how like everyone
else is experiencing these things?
You're not alone in it. I was just on a podcast and they
were like, what is your mantra? And I was like, my mantra is
(42:17):
that no one has ever had an original thought because that is
so comforting to me to be like, you're not special.
Everyone has done this exact same thing.
Like anything you've thought of,any scary thing that's like,
you're fine, this has happened to other people and you're not
crazy or alone. And so I just want to say like
snaps for what you said, you were saying it and I was like,
yay, other people like use this as a coping strategy.
(42:40):
It's genius. Yeah, yeah, entirely.
And but I think the other copingstrategy is to say this won't
work for me because it feels so uncomfortable to even think
about it. Because when that when I first
started to read this stuff whereit said, come on, you know,
you've got to beckon it. You've got to do this.
There were times that I couldn'teven look at an aeroplane in the
(43:01):
sky without becoming anxious. And and the idea that someone
said you're going to get on an aeroplane and when you have a
panic attack, you're going to try and make it even bigger than
it was to start with. And I'm looking at AI couldn't
even go to an airport. It was just like, you must be
kidding me. But actually it was all true.
And, and I think if, if you know, if you're sitting there
(43:23):
thinking, no, no, not for me, not for me, not for me, you
might be wrong. And actually there might be a
way out of this. And I think that's that's
important that we, we just try to override that immediate
because immediately Gollum's turned up and he's gone.
No, no, no, no, no, no, we're not trying any of that.
We're not trying any of that. We're just going to stay here.
(43:45):
Thank you very much. I'm in charge.
And I think if you recognize that all of that discomfort is
just the fear keeping you there and it's just ruining our lives
to be controlled by this. And I, I think most of us want a
bit more than that. Yes, of course we all want to
live, no matter how that looks for us, and staying just inside
(44:07):
in our own little bubble rarely gets us what we want in life.
Yeah, absolutely. And I know for me it felt like
I've just been living this lie. So, you know, if somebody said
let's go here and would you likea lift and I would say I'll get
in the car. I can't do that.
So I'd say, Oh no, no, it's OK, I need to go somewhere else
afterwards, I'll drive myself. So you, you're just constantly
(44:30):
thinking of all these safety behaviours, of these strategies,
of these lies to avoid those situations.
Because I didn't want anyone to know, because not that I was
ashamed of it, I didn't want theattention.
I didn't want anyone to say, well, why is why, why you don't
look anxious? What's wrong with you?
Why, why is that a problem? I didn't want the interrogation
(44:53):
because I couldn't explain it. And it, it just becomes a
secret, just just a, a big secret that's just constant.
It's it's very hard work to do that.
Yes, that is like, I think that's actually an awesome way
to end the episode cuz I think that's how you opened the
episode was being like everyone just wants to know like you look
perfectly fine. What do you mean you have this
(45:14):
going on? But it's because it's such a big
secret to figure out all these little, like you said, those
little lies to be like, no, I'm perfectly fine.
I'm perfectly, perfectly healthyand functioning.
And then you, you know, are justlike panicking with Golem in
your mind. Yeah, absolutely.
And isn't that just masking where you know, for the
neurodivergent? It's just masking.
Wow, yes, I know. I'm actually feeling a little
(45:37):
called out right now. I am the queen of little white
lies, so I don't have to socialize with people.
So. So for the listeners who enjoyed
hearing from you because my gosh, I did.
Where can I find you? Are you on social media?
I know obviously you write some awesome books, which I have to
just like shout out your book. Women and Girls with Autism is
(45:57):
like one of my favorites. It's, it's quite a big thing in
the autism world, this idea thatso many women are coming forward
at that sort of sort of time of life.
I don't do any social media apart from a bit of a rubbishy
arts Instagram, which is under adifferent name.
And if people can find me they're very welcome to.
But it's just me. I'm, I'm a serial crafter.
(46:19):
Those are, those are my intense interests.
I, I do all sorts of bits and pieces.
That's my thing. But no, I just do diagnosis at
the moment through a company called Axia who are in the UK,
in Chester, who are very well known and well respected for the
highly neurodivergent staff and their work.
(46:42):
Obviously all my books. I used to have a training
organization which is now run bymy beautiful autistic ADHD
daughter Jess Hendricks, which is called.
The website is a little bit outdated.
It's www.aspergerhyphentraining.com
and Jess does assessments and webinars and she does all the
(47:03):
training now because she doesn'thave the panic attacks.
So if anyone wants to talk to her, she's she just says she's a
mini me. She she she she's not a mini me.
She's taller than me. But we look very similar and we
sound very similar. But don't tell her that she's my
sister because she hates it. Oh.
My. Gosh, it happens.
I was a young mom. It happens.
(47:25):
People did that to my mom. I hated it when I was younger
and now I'm like, that's right. I am her sister.
Oh, that's funny. OK, Honestly, good for you for
not being on social media. I know that that can be such a
such a a soul sucker sometimes. So just having your little art
account kind of off on the side,like just use it for joy and
that's all. Yes, exactly.
(47:48):
It's too stressful for me. I can't do it.
Yeah, No, not for me. I get that.
OK. So if they're in kind of that UK
area, if they want to maybe reach out and see about getting
like a diagnosis or that kind of.
Thing or anywhere in the world mostly online these days so
everything's kind of, you know, remotely so yeah.
We love that. I mean, hey, that's how we're
talking right now is remotely. So exactly.
(48:10):
Exactly. Yay.
Well, Sarah, thank you so much for being on the podcast.
This has been an interview I've been looking forward to, so
genuinely thank you. But listeners, that is all we
have for you today. This is Sarah, I'm Clark.
And otherwise, this has been chronically the sickest podcast,
you know. That's all folks.
(48:33):
Thank you so much for listening.If you like this episode, click
that follow up button on your podcast app of choice to get
notified every other week. You can find the podcast on
Instagram and TikTok at Chronically the Sickest Podcast.
Let me know if you have any questions or just want to chat.
I love hearing from y'all. Until next time, I'm Clark, and
this has been Chronically the Sickest podcast you know.
(49:02):
Disclaimer, this is a conversational podcast and while
we make sure our diagnosis journey, symptoms and treatment
plan, this is not medical advice.
If you have any questions regarding your health, please
reach out to your doctor and have a great day.
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