Dr. Adi Jaffe, Addiction Specialist & Author of "Unhooked: Free Yourself From Addiction Forever"

Episode Transcript
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THEME SONG (00:05):
Rock and rolling through the cool guitars. Chucks
got the questions, digging sosharp, peeling back layers,
hitting the heart.

Chuck Shute (00:20):
Hey, how's it going good? How you doing good? Thank
you for doing this. I appreciateit. Yeah,

Adi Jaffe (00:26):
yeah, absolutely.
Also good, good way to focus onsomething other than all the
crap that's

going on. Oh, are you down there? Are you in

Adi Jaffe (00:36):
southern Yeah, I'm in Los Angeles. I'm in Los Angeles

here. Oh, why is your house? I mean, obviously
your house is okay,

Adi Jaffe (00:42):
yeah, yeah, my house is okay, about six miles from
the closest fire. But, you know,people have said that, and then
all of a sudden, the firespopped up by them. But I don't
know if, how well, you know, la

not super well. I mean, I've been there many
times, and I've been to, like,the Comedy Store and the
whiskey, yeah,

Adi Jaffe (01:06):
so, I mean, that area is suffering right now, but I am
by Culver City, so I'm kind of,like, in the middle of the city.
And this is not a joke. It wouldbe very sad, but for us to be
affected like all of La wouldhave to be burning like it would

(01:26):
if it got to us. Then thebiggest problem is not my house,
it's the fact that LA hasdisappeared off the map. So, you
know, I mean, they've, they'vetalked about 9000 to 10,000
structures already being burned.

Yeah, I It's insane. I didn't understand. How
does a wildfire start in thewinter? And then, I don't know
if this is true, but I saw somevideo of a guy like being
arrested. So was it all justlike one guy that started this
whole thing? No,

Adi Jaffe (01:55):
no, no, no, no. Um, what happens in the winter here
sometimes? So there's, there'sthese things called Santa Ana
winds that come in from thedesert, and they're really,
really hot. And so I mean reallyhot, like in the 8085, degrees,
and it's the middle of thewinter. And so if it hasn't
rained, if you think about it'sthe driest conditions that have

(02:16):
been right? Because summer justended. We don't get rain in the
summer period. It just neverrains here in the summer. So it
hasn't rained since May orApril, so it's been like, just
insanely dry. So any brush thatis hanging out like it could
literally be a cigarette thatsometimes lights it up, but it

(02:36):
could also just be the winds andthe sun, but then once that
first spark hits in relativelyremote areas, the wind just
picks it up. So if there arestrong, warm winds, there's
nothing to put out the fire. Andit's just kind of like, you
know, it's like, imagine,imagine your fireplace, right?
If you just opened it up to thehouse, and then the embers flew

(02:57):
everywhere all of a sudden,like, the couch lights on fire,
like, you know, all this otherstuff starts catching

so maybe you so is this okay? We're recording this
is okay, because this stuff'sfascinating to me too. I mean
this, if it's okay to be part ofthe episode,

Adi Jaffe (03:10):
yeah, yeah, sure.
I'll more officially kind oflook at Yeah,

get to the book too. But this stuff, I mean
this, it's hard to just ignorethis and not talk about it. But
I want to ask you this, like,you might know more about this
than I, than I do, because Ijust see things on, on the news
and stuff, and I just seesnippets like I don't understand
this part. Maybe you can explainbecause I heard that California
stopped doing the prescribedburning, which is this process
that really the NativeAmericans, I think, figured it

(03:38):
out, like 1000s of years ago,hundreds of years ago, whatever,
like, a long time ago, and they,they burned some of the
underbrush or whatever, so that,you know, if the official
kindling, yeah, so they'rethey've kind of, like prevented
some of these huge things for,like, the fires from starting.
Why did they stop doing is therea strategy behind not doing the

(03:58):
prescribed Well,

Adi Jaffe (03:59):
I mean, look, I'll be honest, actually, one of my one
of my clients, made some ofthese comments yesterday. I'll
be really frank, I don't knowenough about that they talk.
They're talking about budgetcuts, and that some of the
budget cuts affected how oftenthey did it. So it's not that
they stopped doing it. It's morelike, were they doing it
frequently enough? Look, someheads are gonna roll if anything

(04:21):
was actually missed, right? Ifanything was actually skimped
on, or if budget cuts were madeso that standard procedures
weren't followed. I mean,thankfully, not a ton of lives
have been lost. I mean, thankGod for that, right? I think
they're talking about, it's lessthan 10 At the last count that

(04:41):
I've seen, which is incredibleto think about. But you know,
we've had multiple friends whohad to evacuate one home, lost
that house, went to a friend'sor family member's house, let's
say relatively nearby, likewithin 20 to 50 miles, and then
had to evacuate again becausethat second home was now. All
threatened. So somebody wasasking me yesterday at work, I

(05:08):
would say, 2530 families that weknow personally have literally
like house decimated. Sometimesthey would leave, knowing the
need to evacuate and kind ofhoping that everything would be
back, and it was just gone.
Sometimes it was, you know, yougot 30 minutes to go get out
before you die. That's

so scary. I'm so sorry to hear I mean, yeah. I
mean, personally, as much aspeople like it yourself, yeah,
yeah.

Adi Jaffe (05:38):
I mean, we're fortunate that we're not
impacted. I mean, you know, ourhouse is, I think, going to be
fine, but this, this communitywill, it'll take, it'll take
years to recover from this.
Yeah,

I mean, you talk about the mismanagement. I don't
know enough about that either.
I'm curious, but it'sinteresting. I saw this clip on
Joe Rogan, and he was talking a,it was a, I think he was telling
a story about a firefighter. I

Adi Jaffe (06:05):
saw that same clip.
Yeah,

that told him that basically, they've gotten lucky,
and then if the wind blows acertain way, usually the wind
blows and it knocks it out. Butif the wind blows the right way,
then it could just keep going.
And it sounds like that's amajority of of the cause of this
one is just they're gottenreally unlucky with the wins.
Really

Adi Jaffe (06:26):
unlucky with the wins. Again, if there was any
exacerbating factors in terms ofthose, those brushes not being
cleared. And then, you know, onething that I one point that
actually to tie it to the workthat I do with a lot of people,
is like, there are things wedon't control in the world
always has been true, alwayswill be true. We have to focus
on what we control. So again,for instance, right in this

(06:49):
case, like maintaining waterpressure and hydrants and
maintaining water and reservoirsand making sure that the brush
is cleared, are things thathumans can control in this what
direction the goddamn winds go,as far as I know right now, we
don't have control over and youknow, this is one instance, but

(07:10):
we could point to probably 1000sof instances historically where
we learned how our belief thatwe are the masters of our own
destiny, especially when itcomes to nature, has been thrown
in our face and in the world atlarge. Talk about weather, talk

(07:31):
about animals, talk aboutwhatever you want to said, Yeah,
you're a guest just, you know,take care of the house. You
know. I mean, like, it's likepeople, like, idiots who go to
the wilderness and, like, posewith a bear and then get mold.
Like, it's just dumb shit.
Sometimes it's just so this isan instance where in LA Malibu
and Topanga fires, which is kindof like, near the beach, near

(07:54):
the wilderness, are not thatuncommon. I mean, like, I don't
know, every four years, everythree to four years, you hear
about a whole bunch of houses inMalibu burning down, and it's
different patches, because whathappens is, like you said
before, the the brush in thatarea disappears after that big
fire. And so there's many, manymore years that people can build
and not have fires, but thatwe're used to this was, I mean,

(08:17):
Palisades, Santa Monica. It'slike the center of of
residential areas that wehaven't had, I don't think ever,

wow. Yeah, it's great. And it's just, I mean, it
reminds me, too, of the thepandemic. You talk about things
that you can't control and and,you know, I mean, you can
prepare somewhat for those kindsof things, but a lot of it,
there wasn't a lot that that wecould do at the time,
especially, first big one thatthat I had been a part of. And
so I know a lot of Spanish flu,right? Well, yeah, I think that

(08:48):
was before my time a little bit,a little bit So, but, I mean,
but so to tie that kind of intothis, your field of addiction,
because I heard that a lot ofpeople that struggled with
addiction just fell off duringthe pandemic, and because, uh,
addiction support groups andthings like that were canceled,
their treatment was canceled. Sothey're just like, What do I and

(09:08):
then there's also a lot ofpeople that were maybe just a
regular guy that would have afew beers on the weekend, that
were like, I don't have anythingto do, so they just started
drinking every day.

Adi Jaffe (09:18):
Noon o'clock sounded good. Um, yeah, by the way, just
to be fair, it also went theother way, and I don't have data
yet on the prevalence of howmany people actually slowed down
their drinking and got healthierduring COVID.

But yeah, you couldn't even go to the gym. The
gyms were closed.

Adi Jaffe (09:34):
I literally had to buy equipment to set up a gym in
my home gym, which is still howI work out almost exclusively to
this day, because that's what Igot used to during COVID. But
you know, no matter how you feelabout the vaccine, no matter how
you feel about the mass and allthe mandates and all that kind
of stuff, hundreds of 1000s ofpeople died. And you know,
people were compromised, peoplewere old, like whatever, again,

(09:56):
we can, we can talk aboutspecifics. I don't care about
that as much. But. Yeah, it waslike this thing that swept
through our our communities,and, and almost no matter what
decision you made, you were kindof flying by the seat of your
pants. You just were doing yourbest. And, and, yeah, I mean,
one of the points I make in mybook, and to a lot of my
clients, to be honest, evenbeyond the book, it's, um, we

(10:17):
have to get comfortable beinguncomfortable this notion that
you're going to be able to setyourself up with this life where
anxiety, stress and discomfortwill not hit you is is a fool's
errand, and it'll actually setyou up for failure, because not
only are you never going toreach it, but what you're going
to keep doing is hiding from theopportunities to con confront
anxiety and stress, and thatbuilds resiliency number one. So

(10:42):
I was actually talking, I wastalking to this reporter
yesterday in an interview, and Isaid, Look, I've talked to a
bunch of friends, right? I mean,over 30 families that we know
that have lost everything, andwhen we talk to them, their
focus is very specific and veryconcise. We're safe, we're
healthy. Oh my god, does it suckthat we literally lost
everything. Most of thesepeople, maybe they got documents

(11:04):
out, but they didn't get any ofthe memorabilia and any of the
stuff that really matters tothem, because it was too fast.
So, but their main focus islike, Hey, we're safe and we're
healthy. We're going to takecare of that number one. We'll
worry about the rest later. Why?
Because they're being smart.
They're going, I mean, they'rethey really were threatened. So
they're sitting there goingthrough the basics, what do I

(11:26):
control and what can I do rightnow, it's all of us that are
Doom scrolling. They're like,how big is the fire now? Has it
hit this street? Has it hitthat? Because it's like, we're
observers. We're watching itfrom afar and and in reality, if
I may just some people may hateme for saying this, but that's
escapism. Yeah, you're lookingat other people's pain and

(11:47):
misery. And there's probablysome stuff you can do right now,
instead of doom scrolling aboutfires that are not impacting you
in this moment and like, go dosomething. And that could be
volunteer and help other peoplewho are actually affected. It
could be packing up your ownstuff. It could be having a
tough conversation with yourkids about like, whatever it is
there is actionable behavior youcan perform in your own life.

(12:11):
And I think what I try to dowith a lot of people that I talk
to is it's literally, there's athere's an exercise in the book,
and there's an exercise that Iteach all my clients. It's
called the sphere of influence.
I think most of us in Doomscrolling and TV watching, and
that is one of these versions.
Most of us concern ourselves, ormost of our energy goes to the
things we don't control. We'lltalk about Trump in politics.

(12:33):
We'll talk about the weather.
We'll talk about geopolitics.
We'll talk about, you know, thegovernor, or we'll talk about, I
don't know, our neighbors acrossthe street, and how weird they
are. Well, we'll sit around andwe'll put so much energy or or
just social media andinfluencers for hours a day. We
play no role in any of thosethings. And then we leave a

(12:56):
little bit of time for all thestuff that we control, and then
we influence. And I tell myclients, just, let's just flip
that. Save a little bit of timefor the things outside of you
that you don't control and haveno influence over. Save a little
bit. Save 10 to 15% you know,you want to go read about the
Kardashians. Go read about thegoddamn Kardashian. Leave, like,
leave like, 30 minutes for thata day. Yeah.

Ben, do that, though, because it's, it's so
hard I find myself distractlike, I try to work because a
lot of my work is on my forexample, like, reading your
book, I'm listening to your bookon Audible. It's great book, by
the way. Um, and I'm listeningto your book on Audible, but
I've got, I'm on my phone, sonow I've got, like, you know, my
social media is coming up, mytext messages are coming up, but

(13:38):
I'm like, do I need to put anairplane mode, like, how do I
stay focused? It's hard.

Adi Jaffe (13:43):
Great point. So first of all, I love, I love getting
to specific, tactical thingsthat are relevant. Because
you're right, it is hard, butmost of the good stuff in life
is hard, so just because it'shard doesn't mean we shouldn't
do it. So quick tip to everybodythat's listening right now, go
right now and turn off all yournotifications. Period, point

(14:04):
blank, your phone is programmedto get you to pay attention to
it. No offense, but other thanthe work, which, by the way,
Chuck, do you? Do? You agreewith me that even without any
notifications, you would go toyour phone to do work.

Yeah, oh yeah, no, I don't need the notification. I
turn my I think most of mynotifications are off, like, I
but you know what I mean, like,like, in terms of the beep and
stuff, but I think it's still,like, I just, I see it. You know
what I mean? Like, I knownotifications,

Adi Jaffe (14:31):
no, no, totally. So that's what I mean. So, like, I
have, I'll just give you, I'llgive you, really, really, so
definitely no beeps and nobuzzing, right? Like, get rid of
that. And me, yeah?

No, I did. That is enough. I had a co worker who
was like, her phone would gooff, like, every time she get a
text message, which was like,every minute. You know, now you

Adi Jaffe (14:50):
can't and you can't focus, even if you're in the
room with her, you're like, ohmy god, turn your freaking phone
off. What's going on? Yeah. Butthen the next piece is even the
visual alerts. So I keep alerts,like, right now I have alerts
from this. Fire app, because Ido want to know if the fire is
getting closer to my house. Butother than my wife and my kids,
I think, and maybe one of mybiggest clients, nobody's text

(15:12):
or email alerts come through tome either. I will get to my text
and my email. When I get to mytext and my email, if I'm not
looking at it, it's becausethere's something else
important. So I'm just sayingeven the notifications to look
at number one. So that's andthat's just the starting point,
because those are externalforces that are making you pay
attention. The next piece ishard, but I'll, I'll give you a

(15:33):
tip that is in my book forcompulsive habits. But again, I
would argue technology isbecoming a compulsive habit, and
addiction for many of us,replace, don't eliminate. This
is a huge finding in terms ofpsychology and behavior. A lot
of people try to stop themselvesfrom doing things that they want
to do. We are very, very bad atstopping ourselves from doing

(15:57):
things we don't want to do. I'lltell you a tiny little story.
That is how I got to learningthis about I'll tell you about
12 years ago. Let's say I usedto wake up every morning and I
would pick up my phone firstthing, right? My alarm was on my
phone. I would pick it up andwhat do you go to right
afterwards, your text or youremails or social media like,
right away, right? You pick itup and you go to them. What I

(16:17):
was finding was I was at themercy of that first or second
message that I would see interms of how the entire rest of
my day would go, if there was atext from somebody in New York
or somebody who's been up forit, because I woke up pretty
early, like 536 o'clock, so ifsomebody on the East Coast or
somebody in Israel, where I hadfamily, would send me a message
during the day, or if some newsalert showed up during the

(16:39):
evening. Now that's what I'mfocusing on. Nine times out of
10, those were not positive,like, Hey, I hope you have a
great morning, and thateverything is good in your life.
I love you. Messages. They werethings that people needed for
me, or people telling me aboutsomething that's wrong, or, you
know, something that needed tobe fixed. So immediately upon

(17:00):
waking up, like, 15 secondsafter I opened my eyes, I'm now
anxious, worried and stressedout, and I knew it was a
problem, but I couldn't stop it.
Chuck, I just couldn't stop Icouldn't figure out how to stop
it. I tried, I would argue. Iprobably tried for about a year
or two to do some to, like, notdo that, to turn my alarm off
and not look at my phone, andI'm an expert on this, like I

(17:21):
just I was blocked, and then oneand one day I went, Okay, look,
I know I'm supposed to replaceit. What can I replace this
thing with first thing in themorning? And my wife, I'll
actually pull it up for youright now. My wife gave me, had
given me this journal. I'm notaffiliated with this thing. I
make no money off of it, but itwas, it was called The Five

(17:43):
Minute Journal. She had given itto me for Valentine, kind of
honestly, almost as a joke,because I don't really journal.
But she was like, hey, thiswould be good for you. Try it
out, thinking I would never useit. I'd gotten it maybe two
weeks before this decision, andthen one day I said, You know
what I think I can do thisjournal in between turning my
alarm off and looking at myemail. So maybe I don't not look

(18:06):
at my email, but I'll dosomething else for a little bit
in the middle. And that startedWhat about 12 years ago, was me
creating an entire morningritual where I do not look at my
phone, or at least don't look atlike messages and things of that
nature, that ritual now Chuck is90 minutes long, and it includes

(18:27):
Wow. It includes dailygratitude. It includes planning
for my day. So I do look at myphone on my laptop for a
calendar, but I'm literallyplanning. What are my meetings?
What do I have to do further?
And then I work out, and then Igo back to my phone. So now I've
given myself over an hour ofspace from it, and I'm telling

(18:48):
you, Chuck replacing, puttinganother habit instead of the
habit that you're trying to doover time will move you down in
the habit you're replacing andup on the new habit.

Yeah, I love that part of the book that you talk
about. This a little bit in thebook too. Not that specific
example is that, was that partlyinspired by that? What is that
book where the 30 The MiracleMorning, or something like that?
Everyone always talks about, no.
Have you heard of that book?
Though? I have it. No. Okay,well, one thing that I really
liked about your book, hopefullythis isn't spoiling anything.

(19:22):
But towards the end, you talkabout, there's some line that
you said in there that, and thisis kind of goes in cooperation
with what you're saying aboutthe discomfort and the like you
say, like, if you be when youhave these behaviors, because
people think of addiction as,like, meth or like, you know,
usually really heavy addictions,but it could be something as

(19:44):
simple as our phone, and it'susually because we're feeling
anxiety or like discomfort, andyou say to just stop and just
sit with the discomfort. Andthat remind and it's such a
novel idea in some ways, but itreminded me a little bit of that
stand up. It, I think was LouisCK that talks about, like, when
you're at a stoplight and like,you just there's anxiety. You

(20:05):
can't even go through just a sitat a stoplight for 30 seconds
and just be in the moment.
People pick up their phone at astoplight, and that totally
reminded that it's like, you'reright, like, we can't sit with
discomfort.

Adi Jaffe (20:18):
Yeah, yeah. So I'm a big, big believer in training
ourselves to be okay withdiscomfort. There's this
analogy, I don't know if you gotto it yet, about a thermometer.
And so I finished the book.

I mean, I was a little rushed. I'm listening to
double speed, and I think thatit was hard to go through. I
need to go back and go look atall the appendixes. But, yeah,
the thermometer thing you dotalk about that there's this
range or whatever. Yeah.

Adi Jaffe (20:43):
So the idea is just simple. I'll just tell
everybody. It's not look my goalis always to help people. So if,
if this passage is what helpssomebody, and they don't have to
buy the book, then all the morepower to you. I appreciate if
you do buy the book. But like,I'm trying to just help people
out. So my idea is this, we allhave a level of activation, a
level of stress in our life,beyond which we're just

(21:04):
dysfunctional. We just can't Wecan't do anything right. We want
to go to sleep. We want to downa six pack. We want to take
shots. We want to, like, youknow, do a line or something. We
want to disappear because it'stoo much we go into this white
noise world. So let's just takea thermometer like zero to 100
as the temperature, right? And100 we all lose it. And the

(21:25):
point that I make in the bookis, most of us can't even make
it to 100 though, right? Thejoke is, like 100 is like
firefighters walking into afire. A hundreds like a marine
parachuting from a helicopter orfrom a plane with a with their
guns while they're being shotfrom the ground, and having to,
like, organize a mission. We getpissed off when we miss a
parking spot in the freakingmall like we can't 100 is far

(21:48):
from us. So let's say most of ushave an activation level
threshold of 70. Anything beyond70, we just lose our ish. Zero
is full zen like Buddha. Nothingis bothering you. You're it's
not ecstasy, but it's just likezero stress, right? None of us
also experience zero stress. Iwake up in the morning, I may be

(22:10):
at like a 30 or a 40, almostimmediately upon waking up,
between that 40 and 70 is what Icall your safe zone. Now, if you
know that, and if that makessense to you, if you think about
it, that means you only have 30points of stress all day before
you lose it. This is why a lotof people can make it until 5pm

(22:30):
or 6pm and then they startdrinking, because stress at
work, stress with family, stresswith husbands, stressed with
friends, stress from the newsbuilds up, and at five they're
like, Screw it. Give me thatdrink, or give me that whatever,
right? And all the little Doomscrolling and all that stuff in
the middle is like other littlerelease, right? It's like you
disappear for a little bit. Soyou don't have to pay attention

(22:51):
to the stress. Well, if youunderstand this example, you
only have two things you can do.
You can do work to remove yourfloor, to get less stress,
generally, and I'll talk aboutthat. Or you can push your top,
your threshold and trainyourself to be able to be more
uncomfortable. That is whatMarines and special forces do.
Right? Most of their training isto push their level of

(23:13):
discomfort to a point where whena bullet whizzes by their head
on the battlefield, they don'tlose it and run away, because we
need them to stay there anddefend we would hunker down,
pray and just hope thateverything is okay. We, each of
us, can train ourselves to beuncomfortable, and I give some
examples in the book, but let'ssay we've all heard about cold

(23:35):
plungers, right? Everybody'snow, yeah, connected whatever.
Yeah, it's a big fad. That is agreat example. You don't even
have to go that far. I'll giveyou a really fast example of
that one. But what are peopledoing when they go into a cold
punch Chuck? They are trainingthemselves to be super
uncomfortable for two threeminutes. I mean, it's two three

(23:56):
minutes, right? It's not thatlong, but for two three minutes,
you have to stop your naturalproclivity to run. And when you
get out of that, in your brain,literally, the wiring goes, Oh
my gosh. If I can do that, I candeal with a lot of other
discomfort. Note to everybody onthis listening right now, take a
big bucket, fill that with ice,dunk your arm in it. That's a

(24:18):
good starting point for the samething, trust me, within about 30
seconds, maybe one minute, yourarm is really, really cold, and
you have to sit there and figureout how to deal with being
uncomfortable. We can all trainourselves to be comfortable,
being uncomfortable

or taking cold showers, right? I mean, because
then everyone has a cold takingtub or

Adi Jaffe (24:40):
whatever, taking cold showers is great. I mean, going
to an incredibly hard workout isan example, right? But you
pointed out something I talkabout in the book, even a
recommendation I give a lot ofmy clients again, like right
before you reach for thatbottle, pause, sit there and go.

(25:00):
So what's making me want todrink right now? And I promise
you there will be answers. Andthe reason I think you should
pay attention to it is that'sessentially an alarm in your
brain saying, Hey, we'reuncomfortable. So you can ignore
it. But that's a little bitlike, let's say maybe bad
example, given where we areright now. But it's a little bit

(25:22):
like, there's a fire engine.
There's a fire aging outside. Soyour fire, your smoke detectors
are going off, and you take thebattery out, right? Yeah, the
alarms there for a reason. Youwant to pay attention to it.
Well, I think

that's what's so interesting about your book, is
that you don't like I said. Youdon't just talk about addiction
in terms of people think, like,oh, meth and alcoholics and
things and, you know, like, I'mdoing really good because I
don't, I don't take any drugsand I don't drink. But I think
there's so many other thingsthat you mentioned the book,
like phones, how many of us arenot addict? Or phones to some
level, porn, gambling? I thinkthe biggest one too, right now.

(26:01):
I mean, if you look at theobesity epidemic, is like, is
junk food? I think junk food.
There are so many people that Ithink it's the same thing. For
for some people, it's grabbing adrink or a beer, but for other
people, it's grabbing a donut ora pastry or fast food, or 100%

Adi Jaffe (26:16):
I completely agree.
Look, sugar, purified sugar isone of our first drugs, Chuck,
right? We never, I think

it's I, my dad was asking me, you know, like, we
have a family member that'saddicted alcohol, and he was
asking me about it, and I waslike, I don't know, because I've
never, I've never been like, Oh,I really need a drink. I've been
more like, I think sugar is way.
I think that's way harder toquit. And you think about it,
and you might not even know thatyou're addicted, sure, because
you don't realize how it's ineverything.

Adi Jaffe (26:46):
Oh my gosh. I mean, I so I have a 14 to 12 and a six
year old, and I had to trainthem before, like, just look at
the can, or look at the thingyou're picking up. Some of these
things have, you know, 30 gramsof sugar per cup. And so I've
once poured, like, 30 grams ofsugar to show them. I go, this
is what you're doing toyourself. And now kids don't
understand why that's a problemthat as adults, we do. And I

(27:07):
think, I think you're totallyright. Sugar is one of the
biggest ones look at. I mean, ifwe added obesity and type two
diabetes related deaths to tothe addiction count, we'd have,
I think we'd cross the half amillion mark at this point every
year, and and so, yeah, you hitit right on the nose. The

(27:28):
behavior is not just therebecause you want to eat a donut
or you want to stuff your facewith a whole pizza. The behavior
is there because you arereacting to emotions, reacting
to physical and andpsychological feelings that are
occurring in your in your body,and you've learned at whatever
point earlier on in your lifethat if you eat a bunch, it

(27:51):
feels better, that if you gowatch porn, it feels better. You
know, something like 30 to 40%of of men hide their porn use.
There's there's much peopledon't talk about this a lot. You
know, there's a reason why theporn industry is one of the most
profitable industries in theworld. It's crazy to think
about, like it's nobody reallytalks about porn, but everybody

(28:13):
watches it. And I mean, what,literally, one of the most
profitable industries that wehave is pornography with the
digital, online world.

I have a friend who is a Christian. He said a lot of
Christian men are addicted toforeign which is really
interesting to me because,again, it goes back to that,
like, Hey, I'm not, I don'tdrink and I don't take drugs.
I'm doing great. It's like, butthey're, they have this porn
thing, and then, like, and sothat's why I'm just saying,
like, what I love about yourbook is, like, you really apply
this to basically everyone. I'mtrying to think of anybody who's

(28:44):
not overdoing something that isnot you know, they're using
something to take away thatdiscomfort, basically that you
talk about.

Adi Jaffe (28:52):
So I'm glad you said that, because I do want to
define something. I considersomething an addiction, if it's
a behavior or substance that youconsume, and like I said, in a
compulsive way, what does thatmean? You often consume it more
than you want to, or morefrequently than you want to,
even after you've you've wantedto break or stop, and you've

(29:12):
tried to slow down or stopcompletely before, and it hasn't
worked. So all those things haveto be true, and importantly,
it's negatively affecting yourlife. So not everything that you
do, a lot of qualifies, right?
But there could be many, manythings. So one example I give in
the book, by the way, that hasnothing to do with food, nothing

(29:33):
to do with drugs, is actuallywork, addiction and success. And
I deal with a lot of executives,a lot of really high performing
people, and when they have afight with their spouse, when
they when they don't know whatto do with their kids, when life
is too much, when the stress andanxiety build up, they run to
work. They know how to do that.
Well, they can control that partof their life. Well, what

(29:54):
happens for them is that that'sactually really celebrated
outside, right, right?

Yeah. I mean, I. I don't wish I had a little bit
more of a work addiction. Ithink I'm too lazy, maybe,

Adi Jaffe (30:04):
although, you know, oftentimes those people suffer
massive consequences in terms ofpersonal life, ruined divorce,
ruined marriages, kids thatwon't talk to them, horrible
relationships outside becausethey become so singularly that
becomes their escape, right?
Their escape becomesperformance. And there's a
belief, this false belief. It'skind of like in addiction with

(30:27):
alcohol and drugs. People talkabout chasing the high. For
people who are addicted to work,the belief is, if I just, if I
just hit this next mark, yeah,then everything will be okay.
And then they hit it, andnothing changes. So they go for
the next and the next. I knowpeople who literally make
hundreds of millions of dollarsand are completely dissatisfied.

I've heard that for many people too. I think Tony
Robbins talks about that heworks with similar kind of
people. Do you think the namethat jumps out at me right now
is Tom Brady? Do you think that?
I mean, this guy is the greatestfootball player of all time. I
mean, I don't think there's muchof a question, but, I mean, he
got his marriage fell apart, andI don't know what his
relationship is like with hiskids, but I mean, you got to

(31:09):
wonder if that, because Ithought that was kind of the
thing is that he was supposed toretire, and then he goes no one
more year, and then it was, likea terrible year. So it's like,
why did he even do that? Do youthink he was addicted to work?

Adi Jaffe (31:22):
I just a disclaimer.
I've never worked with Tomeverything I'm about to say is
complete conjecture based onwhat I've seen of him. But I
think that was a great that's agreat example of my guess is,
what happened is, when he left,there was this massive void.
Here's this thing he's donesince high school. It wasn't

(31:43):
considered an addiction up untilthat moment, or a compulsion
until that moment, because itwas his career. Tom Brady's my
age like I'm 48 years old. Thisdude was playing in the NFL
three years ago. I mean, it's socrazy. I don't know if people
understand, anybody who's notterribly into sports and

(32:04):
football, cannot fathom, yeah,what that actually means in
terms of the work you have toput in, right? These guys, like,
I've worked with footballcoaches, I've worked with NHL
NFL stars, like, the amount ofeffort they have to put into
this is monumental. Most humanswould not be able to take two
days of what these guys have todo, and they do it, like nine

(32:26):
months out of the year. And so Ithink he left, and it left this
massive void. And, yeah, I thinkhe got really uncomfortable,
because there was no, you know,somebody like a Tom Brady always
needs to have a goal. Theyalways need to have the next
thing they're chasing,ironically and maybe sadly.
Look, I don't know how good therelationship with Gisele was
before all this happened, but itwas they were like the poster

(32:48):
couple, I mean, for crying outloud, like you either hated them
because you literally said toyourself, This is insane. It's
like the best looking people onthe face of the planet who are
more better performing thananybody else. They have more
money that look at their kids.
So I don't, but that's fake,right? We don't really know what
was actually happening in thehome. I think, yes, I think his

(33:08):
wife said something along thelines of, look, I'm done. I
can't be a football wifeanymore. You said you were gonna
quit. Nobody plays till they'rein the late 40s. Like this is
insane. I didn't sign up foryou, being a football player at
50 years old, you have to quit.
He quit, and then you didn'tknow what to do with it.
Ironically, if he would havegotten this fox job right after
he quit, he might have not goneback to football. He just didn't

(33:33):
have another thing lined up.

Yeah, that's so fascinating. Yeah, because you
knew that he can't play footballforever. I mean, what is he
going to do? Like, is he goingto start just going into the
minor league football is hegoing to be, like, an arena
football player, like, early,you know, was he going to be a
coach or, I mean, yeah, and as,I think the same with, I'm
curious what happened to, Idon't know, Peyton Manning is. I
mean, it's another similarfootball player who, you know,

(33:58):
worked really hard and had thatwork ethic and stuff. But he it
seems like he was able to justretire. And maybe he does an
occasional commercial. I haven'treally seen him around too much,
so I don't know what he's doing.
Well, you

Adi Jaffe (34:09):
know, now he's paint Peyton Manning, right. He has
that commercial where he's,like, painting instead of being
paid. So some people

are able to kind of turn it off, I guess, in a way,
or tone it down and and maybe, Idon't know, maybe Peyton is
like, I'm going all in onfamily. I'm going to be a family
addict. Now, I don't know.

Adi Jaffe (34:27):
Yeah, so, so again, go back, and I appreciate the
term, and what I talk about inthe book is I argue somewhere
around half, or just under halfof people are the people who are
compulsively coping. The otherhalf are the people that have to
deal with us, right? So I havemy own addiction. It's only

half. I thought it was going to be like 90% I feel
like everyone's addicted tosomething, and some No,
everybody

Adi Jaffe (34:55):
has, everybody has potentially bad habits. But I
think when you put. To the levelof like this is negatively
impacting your life on a regularbasis. You try to stop, and you
can't stop. Look, I'm justtalking about the data that I
see. Once we add the behavioraladdiction, we are talking about
upwards of 100 million, youknow. And so, you know, there's

(35:18):
three 50 million people in thiscountry. Think to yourself, like
300 million adults, maybe two 70million. So it's almost half of
the adults are probably dealingwith this right now and and I
think it's time that we stop tothe point that you made earlier,
Chuck, I think it's time that westop pretending that it's those
homeless alcoholics out in thestreet that are the ones dealing

(35:39):
with this, like the cat's outthe bag, right? It's kids in
elementary in middle schools inthe middle of the country. It's
entire swaths of communitiesthat have been ravaged by
addiction. You know, Oxycontinis the thing that we focus on
now, but it was meth in the 80s,and, I mean, in the 90s, and it
was crack in the 80s. Like wecan keep pretending that it's

(36:00):
only happening to those otherpeople, but it's happening
around all of us.

Well, yeah, I was a school counselor for 17 years,
and I, when I first started, itwas like, 2003 right? So I don't
think a lot of kids even hadcell phones. Then it was very
few. But I remember like, I'llnever get like, this teacher
came to me and like, this kiddoesn't do anything. And I was
like, What do you mean? Hedoesn't do any like, he just
doesn't do work. He refuses. AndI didn't, I didn't know you

(36:26):
could do that, like, because Iwas always like, if I didn't do
my homework, I'd get in trouble.
Like, I guess some kids don'tcare, and we just had, like, one
kid like this at a school. Butas I progressed throughout my
career, the number of kids likethat that just don't do anything
increased significantly. Andthen it was like the cell phones
coming in at just more kids juston their phones in class, and
the number of kids not doing anywork. I mean, I feel like it was

(36:49):
like almost half of the kids atschools. It was. And now, when
you look at the mental healthnumbers in teenagers, I mean, it
makes sense, like they'remiserable and they're just
addicted to their phones orvideo games or whatever.

Adi Jaffe (37:03):
Yeah, and I was on this podcast with a friend. His
name is Max lugar. And, yeah,

big, big guy.
That's a big name. He followsyou. And, yeah, that's great.
Yeah,

Adi Jaffe (37:13):
he's a great, a good, really good, a good friend. And
you use this term, I alwaysmight want to make sure that I
give attribution to the peoplewho gave me things, I don't make
them up myself always. And youtalked about earned versus
unearned dopamine. And theproblem with a phone is it gives
you all these little minidopamine hits. You don't have to
do anything for like. It'll justping you and buzz you and tell

(37:36):
you, Hey, look at this thing.
And look at this. And, oh, didyou know about this? And oh,
your friends scored this on yourthis stupid Tetris game. Do you
want to go like play now andeveryday life is about effort. I
mean, you know, you joke aboutbeing lazy, but Chuck, I don't
know how many episodes. Sorry, Ishould have researched this. I
don't know how many episodesinto this show you are close to
500 Yeah, it's right, it's, it'shundreds. So I've had a podcast

(38:00):
with, you know, 300 400episodes. That's work. Recording
it is work, planning for it iswork, getting it out is work. So
my guess this is, I've known younow for 38 minutes in my life.
But my guess is that, like mostof us, it's the things you put a
lot of work into, the field themost rewarding. And what we're

(38:21):
doing to ourselves right now insociety is we're robbing
ourselves of the Great, the thecontentment, the satisfaction
that comes from earned dopamine,from the work that we actually
have to work for and and it lawsour brains and our in our
psychology into thinking. I'mfeeling pretty good. So it's
fine, because we don't actuallyknow what really good feels

(38:43):
like. And you know, life is alife is a journey. I believe we
get one of it. And it's not justthat we don't get our time back.
It's that, as you pointed outwith these kids in the schools.
If you don't learn that, it'seffort that gets you joy and

(39:03):
satisfaction, you're kind ofokay being in this weird middle
ground plateau. And I hate tosay it, but we're gradually
moving to this like, wall E,like, yeah, the movie. Wall E,
yeah,

you're so right.
That movie is kind of like ahorror movie in a way, and it's
kind of scary for

Adi Jaffe (39:25):
people. Oh, like you wake up. I mean, think about our
life right now, right? You canwake up. Get on your phone,
watch a bunch of stuff whenyou're hungry, go to your
Instacart or Uber Eats account.
Make sure some food shows up.
Eat it, pick a nap, watch amovie. You're still on your
phone. You literally haven'tleft your phone yet. If you're,

(39:48):
like, one of my guys watchingfootball right now, yeah, and
then, like, you know, if youwant to go to porn, if not, go
to shopping. By the way, wedidn't talk about shopping. I've
talked on some shows, and peoplementioned to me that shopping is
one of the things that they run.
Two for coping. Now, again, ifyou're shopping a little bit,
and it's not too much money, notan addiction, but some people
shop to the point where it hurtstheir bank account right and now
they have to either returnthings or they're behind another

(40:11):
payment. So, long story short,you can live on this thing in
your bed all day. Never have todo work. You may be able to
survive that way, but I'm goingto argue you're not going to be
able to thrive, and you're notgoing to be able to feel happy
and content that way, and thenall the mental health issues
come in. So

I think, is there ways to enjoy some of these
things? Because I know somepeople like I have a buddy. I
mean, he works really hard, buthe does play. I think he plays a
what is that like? Call of Duty,but he only limits it to, like,
30 minutes or an hour a day. AndI know you talk about in your
book how I think, wasn't it youthat you're running these
groups, and then you starteddrinking bourbon or something

(40:51):
every night? I was

Adi Jaffe (40:52):
when I when I ran my first treatment center. Yeah,
yeah. So,

I mean, is there a way to enjoy some of these
things, even maybe shopping, andmaybe even porn and, and, you
know, having a drink, or somepeople even, it's like weed. Can
you enjoy these things inmoderation? Or is that is that?
I think

Adi Jaffe (41:09):
the answer is yes. I think the issue is you have to
deal with all those underlyingactivations and and discomfort,
so you have to do the hard workof lifting those up. But once
you do that work, or as you dothat work, I think the answer is
a resounding yes. I'm not sober,but, you know, I drink like
three times a month, maybe fourtimes a month, and I'm not great

(41:34):
with cannabis, so I don't dothat a lot, but I think here's,
here's the the short answer to alonger answer that's in the
book. You can't do that whilerelying on one of these
behaviors, but you can havelike, seven or four or 12,
right? So every once in a while,yeah, you run to the video game,

(41:56):
and then you are, you maybe eata donut a week, and you know,
you Yeah, if you watch porn, itjust, it's the consistency and
running to the same behaviorover and over and over. What it
does is it literally wires. Arejust saying in neuroscience,
neurons of fire to get a wiretogether. And so if you rely on

(42:17):
only one thing, it becomes areally, really strong habit
that's hard to break. So what'simportant is to just have a
balanced set of copingstrategies. We all need coping
Chuck. It's not like I'm notsaying this is not in the book,
I hope doesn't come across asbeing a puritanical book that
says you shouldn't you shouldn'tindulge, you shouldn't have fun

(42:39):
with behaviors that make youfeel good. That's not what I'm
saying. What I'm saying is, ifyou developed a habit that makes
them compulsive, where you'reunable to control them, it's
time to pay attention.

Yeah. Well, that's and that's, it's so interesting
because on my podcast, I don'tknow if you've checked it out at
all, but I've interviewed a lotof musicians, rock stars,
basically, a lot of from theearly 70s, 80s and 90s eras. And
it just seems like there's thispattern where they get into the
band, and then they just startdoing drugs and drinking and

(43:10):
stuff, and they just go crazy.
And then it's like they justhave to do a complete 180 and
they have to go basically coldturkey, and they have to go 100%
sober, I mean, and so is theresome people that maybe just
shouldn't ever they can. It'seither it's like a switch. They
can either go on or off. Theycan't put it. It's not a dimmer
for them. They can't put it inthe middle.

Adi Jaffe (43:34):
Yeah. So look, there are a couple of things that you
just pointed out. Number one,it's really, really hard to
separate when your job so I'veworked with musicians, your job
is to be on the road. Your jobis to keep ridiculous hours.
Your job is to always like, Imean, man, I never thought I

(43:54):
would say this name in aninterview, but right there's
like, what's what's the new it'slike a Taylor Swift talk about,
essentially, like, how you haveto pretend, as a musician, you
have to pretend that you'rehappy even when you're having
the worst day of your life ever.
Right? A musician could beriddled with anxiety, suffering
greatly, and it's show time, andyou got to turn on the smile and
do the moves and put the act onright, and then get on the bus

(44:17):
or get on the plane and get tothe next game. So they need to
cope. And so it's this heavilystressful life that is full of
indulgence, full of of stressorsand irregular schedules. And you
just have to figure it out. Iremember Drake got like, uh, he

(44:39):
caught some flack for a line inone of his songs. It says, uh,
you know that he took Xanax on aplane and slept through the
flight. And I'm like, Y'all haveno idea what it's like to finish
a show at 1am and then know thatyou have a show the next day in
another city. So by 230 you'reon a plane, and then you land at
like, four. Five have to go to ahotel, sleep, wake up, do

(45:01):
rehearsal and sound check, goagain, like the guy needed some
sleep. Chill the hell out,right? But my point is, it is,
when I've worked with musicians,the drugs are almost a part of
the package. For a lot of them,just to function at the level,
they have to function and andand then there's all these, you
know, the women and all thepartying and all that other

(45:23):
stuff that goes along with it.
So it's actually really, reallyhard to break apart the drugs
from the stress from the job forsomebody like that. And I've
worked with a lot of musicianswhere their fear is, if I stop
the drugs, I can't do the job.
There's a big fear on that for alot of musicians.

So what did they typically, because you talk
about we, I mean, we talkedabout a little bit too, is that
those replacement behaviors,that is a big part of it's you
can't just be like, okay, stopdrugs now, just live life. It's
like you got to replace thatwith something. So do they
replace that with work? Or, Iknow a lot of them, like, what's

(46:01):
the guy from Def Leppard? Imean, he's like, ripped. He's
like, he's older, he's like,50s, and he's like, he's got,
like, a six pack. Like, do theyreplace it with fitness? A lot
of the times,

Adi Jaffe (46:11):
fitness, meditation and spirituality are really,
really big, right? Things likeyoga and kind of like this. I
mean, I mean, look at what theBeatles did in the 60 Right?
Like, there's a reason for that.
It's, it's this truth seeking,etc, so fitness that I think a
lot of people get into advocacyand and causes, so that they
fill their time with that. But,you know, I talked about was

(46:33):
just part of a debate about AAin the 12 steps. I think 12
steps are a replacement habitfor a lot of people, yeah, like
they go to meetings instead ofdrinks. And actually, that's,
that's technically in the bigbook. And I'm not a 12 step
proponent, although a lot ofpeople think I'm against AA. I'm
not against AA, I just don'tfollow it. And I don't think
it's the only solution. Have youever been to an AA meeting, by

(46:55):
the way? Oh, I was in a forthree years.

Oh, okay, I know you were in treatment. I didn't
know it was aa, because, yeah,I'm all

Adi Jaffe (47:03):
treatment, all treatment. Back then was aa,
there was nothing but a Yeah,because I went to,

I went to a meeting one time, and it was just the
most dark, depressing, like, Iwas, like, I don't know, like,
this helps anybody? It's,

Adi Jaffe (47:17):
yeah, I mean, so, I mean, you hit a lot of, there's
a lot of there's a lot of peoplethat you go to an AA meeting,
and everybody's talking aboutthe crazy days out there and and
how bad things got for them. Inmy work, you know, I'm wearing a
hat for my company calledignited. We actually now help
people who are getting out ofjails and prisons and need help
with addiction, and we have theexact opposite approach. I want

(47:37):
to focus on the solution and howyou move forward. I don't want
to sit around and talk abouteverything that's gone wrong in
your life that's just going toget you more depressed and more
anxious, so I'm fully with youon there. But if you think about
it, one of the replacementbehaviors in 12 step is, instead
of having a drink, go to ameeting, right? That's that's
the solution. So it's literallya replacement, yeah?

Well, and I find it interesting too, they always
have cigarettes, coffee andpastries and donuts. That's
always a huge isn't that a hugepart? Yeah,

Adi Jaffe (48:05):
yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah. I mean, and
again, look, to be fair, you'reprobably not going to get a DUI
drinking too much coffee, but,

but you, like, you say in the book, you're not
getting to that root of theproblem.

Adi Jaffe (48:18):
You're not getting to the root and to, you know, look,
so I know a lot of people. Ihave really, really good friends
who recovered through the 12steps again. I have nothing
against it. I think it needs tobe modernized. I think it's
dated. It's 100 years old,almost right, like it's time to
maybe spruce it up a little bit,but, but I'm glad, I'm glad it
exists. I think it's, it worksfor a very small percentage of

(48:40):
the people who try it, my pointis a small percentage. Oh, it's
a tiny percentage. If you lookat long term recovery, it's
under 10% or somewhere betweenfive and 10% of all the people
who go into aa that can get ayear or a couple of years in a
sober Yeah, absolutely. Andthat's even the people who
really support AA. Will tell youa very small percentage of

(49:01):
people do it. Really successfulfor those people, by the way. So
that's great. We just need moreoptions that support other 90%
of people. But one of the thingsthat can happen in in those
replacements oftentimes, is itbecomes overprotective, right?
So you mentioned it doesn'tnecessarily treat the underlying
causes. Sure, if you surroundyourself with people who don't

(49:21):
drink, and you marry people anddate people and only have
friends who don't drink, and yougo to meetings every time you
potentially want to drink, andyou're in meetings all the time,
and you speak in meetings yourwhole life is around abstinence.
Your identity is aroundabstinence. There's a much
better chance that you won'tdrink. 100% most people are not
willing to commit to that levelnumber one and number two, it
doesn't solve the underlyingissues. So I mentioned this

(49:44):
before. I have a lot of friendswho are sober in a and 12 step
programs, but they also dotherapy, they also do
meditation, they also went intotrauma related work, right?
They've done other things otherthan AA to actually solve those
underlying problems, because adidn't solve the problem. Them,
but it kind of put a plug in thein the issue, in the behavior,

(50:04):
and gave them some space, whichis good. That's that's useful,

yeah, and I think a really important part of your
book, I think I've talked abouton this podcast many times, and
I have the same kind of theoryas you talk about purpose. Like
people finding a purpose. Youdon't have to, you know, you
could think that you have apurpose. You can adjust it and
change it, but you got to startwith why, what resonates with
you. And then you talk aboutfinding something that you're

(50:27):
good at, what you love to do,and what can help the world. And
I feel like that is somethingthat's really lost, especially
going back to my work with kidsand just the statistics on
mental health and kids rightnow, I think young people
especially, are very lost atthat. But also, I would say
there's people that are in their40s, 50s or older, that have
never found a purpose. And yeah,they've had jobs and they've,

(50:49):
you know, paid the bills andstuff, but they don't really
feel like they're serving theworld, and that's why they're
they're so unhappy and sostressed and using these other
coping mechanisms. Yeah, I

Adi Jaffe (50:59):
don't, I don't think that's wrong at all. I'm a big,
big proponent of purpose. I feellike, again, you don't have to
have it, but I think to achievethe higher levels of joy and
contentment and satisfactionwith your life you sort of do so
you can get by without it, butif you really want to feel great
about what you do every day.
Now, the thing that I point outin the book, so I give an

(51:21):
exercise called ikigai, and it'sa Japanese concept on on how to
find your purpose. And so if youdon't know what your purpose is,
that's fine, but just make ityour purpose. To find your
purpose. Say, Hey, I'm going tolook around until I land on
something that feels authentic.
You already pointed this out.
Chuck, change it in two years ifit doesn't feel right again. But
there are things you're good at,things you like doing, and

(51:43):
things that serve the world atlarge. You start doing more of
that in your life and and there,it's not a huge subset. It's not
like there's 50 of those thingsin all of our lives. There's a
handful of them, and they'redifferent for all of us, right?
You're a counselor. I love,obviously, helping people and
talking. I love teaching. That'ssomething I really, really like
doing. So that's, that's what mylife has become, right? I'm sort

(52:04):
of teaching and helping people,and you don't have to make it
your job. And ikigai kind oflike, the fourth factor is, will
you get money for it? And that'sgreat. If you can find something
that fits all four beautiful.
You can make your money and haveyour purpose at the same time,
but you have to have the purposeso you can have a job and then
go volunteer after andimportantly, I point out this to

(52:27):
everybody. Your purpose doesn'thave to change the world. It
doesn't like we think of purposelike ending world hunger, or,
you know, turning climate changearound, or changing the the
election system in the country,or, you know, freeing sex
workers. All those things, bythe way, are incredibly powerful
purposes, if that is yours, butit could be being involved in

(52:52):
your neighborhood and keeping itas safe, clean and and connected
as possible, right? Justsomething bigger than yourself.
We get very egocentric, whichmakes sense. I talk about this
in the book. When I wake up inthe world and I open my eyes,
the world revolves around me,right? If I turn this way, I see

(53:12):
that wall. I don't see youanymore. It's like my world
seems to revolve around me. ButI'm smart enough, and I've been
around I'm wise enough, maybe Ishould say, after almost 50
years on this planet to knowChuck your world doesn't revolve
around me. My wife's worlddoesn't revolve around me. Maybe
my kids does more now than itwill in like, 510, years, but
their world doesn't. So findingsomething greater than yourself

(53:33):
connects you to other people ina way that being self obsessed
all the time just doesn't. Yeah,

do you think that is a big issue in America today,
too, that we are not I mean,we're so connected in some ways,
like you and I can do thispodcast in different cities via
technology, but also thetechnology makes us less
connected, and we spend so muchtime with the technology and
phones that we're not seeingeach other in real life like I

(53:59):
have So many friends that I I'lltext daily, but, I mean, I only
see them a few times a year. Inreal life, it's hard to get
people to come out and, like, dosomething, like go to a sporting
event or a concert, or like,even out to dinner.

Adi Jaffe (54:12):
Yeah, look, it's a double edged technology is a
double edged sword, but we'regoing to keep moving forward in
this way. So I do hopetechnology continues finding or
companies continue finding waysto help us feel more connected
remotely. There's no doubt we'vegone we've gained some freedom
because of it. We've also lostsome connectivity. Seeing people
in person is always moreconnected than connecting to
them digitally, at least fornow, I'll tell you know, again I

(54:37):
mentioned my company ignitedhelps people with addiction
issues that have struggled withthe criminal justice system, we
help people in the middle ofreally rural areas where they
can't get help. So technologyhelps us when we're isolated,
bring people closer. But I doagree, if you have the potential
and the ability to do it,connecting in person is much,
much fuller. It's a much fullerexperience. I do think many of

(55:03):
us need to be aware of I'll callit the privilege, or just the
magic. I actually just wrote anarticle about this for
Psychology Today recently, like,it's insane that we get to do
this right now. Chuck, I mean,if you just think about it for a
second, right? I'm not an ITperson. I understand enough
about technology and satellitesand in Wi Fi, etc, to know that

(55:26):
it is crazy that you and I getto do this right now. You're
sitting in Philly. Am I right?
I'm in Phoenix or Scott Phoenix?
Sorry, got it. Got it. So you'rein Scotts, at least you're only
one state over and on the otherside of the country, but you
know, you're sitting a stateover, you're in a room in your
house. I'm in a room in myhouse. We have digital mobile

(55:47):
devices that are connecting.
I've got a camera and amicrophone. Like, each one of
the things that makes our oursystem, our technological
system, function, you can't, youcan't go tomorrow and create
that microphone on your own,like each one of these pieces is
magical on its own. And then I'ma behavioral neuroscientist that
psychology, that was my my areaof focus, and then just the fact

(56:09):
that our brains are healthy andfunctional enough to be able to
talk and think at the same time,to remember the points and
connect that different pointsthat we make. I think part of
that thing, of identifying agreater purpose and a connecting
to something bigger. It can bespiritual or not, I don't really

(56:31):
care, is locking into andrecognizing the pure magic that
is every day in life, almostevery moment in life, and I
think that gives us, I have agratitude practice that I do
every morning. I recommend thatin the book, I'm sure you read,
that there's always stuff to fixin our lives and in the world,

(56:52):
but also so much of it is great,so much of it is amazing. And if
we don't connect to that enough,I think we can live a great life
but be miserable in it. Yeah,

I know that is great. Is it okay to keep going?
Or do you need to? You haveanother one at 10 or 9am for
you? I guess.

Adi Jaffe (57:12):
Let me actually look at my calendar. I do have a
meeting. I could be a coupleminutes late to it, but

we'll wrap this up.
And yeah, there's other thingsthat, you know, I want to talk

Adi Jaffe (57:22):
about, but I'm almost always down to come back. This
was great. Yeah, you'll

have to come back.
I'm really like, when I firstsaw, I think before I even read
the book, I just saw who youwere, like, you're followed by
Joe Rogan and Nikki six. Andthat Max guy on Instagram was
like, wow, this guy must knowhis stuff. And then, and then I
read the book, and I was like,Oh my god. I love this book. I
love how you took a differentapproach. And like, you know, we
talked about getting to the rootof the problem. I think that's

(57:47):
really important. One thing Idid want to ask you real quick
before you go is you talkbriefly about the use of
psychedelics in the book. And Ihad a guy on here. Now I'm
spaced on his name, but I mean,that's is a whole thing, is he
does psychedelics to treataddiction and stuff. Do you
think that is going to be a bigthing in the future? Do you

(58:07):
think they're going to legalizethat, and do you think that is
something that could bebeneficial for people who are
kind of exhausted? All the otherpossibilities?

Adi Jaffe (58:18):
Yeah, I can. I can say definitely yes. The way you
ask the question, I can say yes,absolutely. I don't believe in
magic pills, so it's not goingto be the thing that fixes it.
But the way I write in the book,and I think the shortest way to
get to the answer to yourquestion is this, most of us
change very incrementally, smallchanges over long periods of
time. And then you look back ayear, two years, five years

(58:40):
later, you're like, Oh my God,I've changed so much, right? And
that can be exercise, it can bedaily habits, it can be
meditation, it can be a skill,like learning a new sport or
something. All those things.
Rarely do we see a big, massiveshift in behavior quickly. And
what I say in the book is I'veonly seen two things create that
first is a back against thewall. Do or die, come to Jesus

(59:02):
moment, right? Mine came with myarrest. You read about some of
the other ones from my clientsin the book. I won't spoil all
of them. Your wife says to you,hey, I'm leaving. I can't live
like this anymore. A DUI, right?
Somebody beats the crap out ofyou because you did something
stupid, like, oh, come to Jesus,back against the wall. If I

(59:25):
don't change this, my life isgoing to get ruined. Moment that
can change you doesn't have to,but it can. The problem is, we
can't manufacture those. Theyhappen. So they happen
sporadically, and theyunfortunately, are not wonderful
experiences to live through,right? I mean, they're normally
very, very painful. The rightpsychedelic experience with the
right guidance and the rightintegration are the only other

(59:48):
thing that I've seen createthat. And by the way, if you
look at the research, like,let's say psilocybin, for
instance, if you look at theresearch, it seems to be tied to
spiritual God connection, likemoments. So there's some. Thing,
and still, it essentially isstill a come to Jesus moment.
It's just we can control it andmanufacture it. Ketamine is
already legal. Psilocybin willprobably become legal, at least

(01:00:10):
for veterans and people whosuffer with severe trauma as
quickly. MDMA almost becamerescheduled recently, but
because of I'll just say it, Iwas really, really, really
pissed when some of this stuffcame out because of some
practitioners that tookadvantage of the situation,
which is just terrible withpsychedelics, to even think
about doing that, and just actedreally, really inappropriately,

(01:00:33):
that can got kicked down theroad probably a number of years,
which is really sad, but theresearch is out Chuck. It's not
a question of whether, yesagain, not a magic pill. It's
not like, once these things arelegal or more people can use
them, 100% of people willrecover, but a portion of people
will absolutely benefit fromthese things and already have,

Chuck Shute (01:00:53):
yeah. Okay, last question, I'll let you go just
real quick though. I mean, if Ihave friends or relatives that
are really struggling withaddiction. Like, I mean, there's
no question. I mean, like, Ihave one of my friends, I feel
like they may die soon be ifthey can't stop their alcohol
addiction, what can I do as justa friend? I mean, you can't make
you can lead a horse to water.
You can't make them drinkwhatever. You know, all these

(01:01:15):
sayings and cliches. But isthere some one thing that I
could say or do that wouldencourage them to start down
this path, besides giving themyour book, I guess I don't know.
Yeah.

Adi Jaffe (01:01:26):
I mean, look, reading books, podcasts are a great,
simple, easy way to start. Looklike you said, we can't control
anybody. And so I'll go back tothat thing of do what you can.
First of all, maybe you read thebook, because then you
understand your friend's problemis not alcohol. There's
something going on in his head,something going on his life,

(01:01:47):
past traumas, past experiencesthat make life so unbearable
that drinking himself to deathis a better solution. Now, in
the book, there's that there's agraph. I don't know if you're
able to see it because you didthe audible, but what I say is,
everybody's behavior, if youjust look at it right now, can
make no sense and seem crazy.
But if you follow their wholestory from when childhood and
when do they first startdrinking in this way, when do

(01:02:09):
they first identify alcohol isactually a cure for them, a fix
for their problems? You sitthere and you listen to their
whole story and their drinkingwill make 100% sense. So if you
there is something you can do,it's to go to your friends, say,
hey, you know what? I just readthis book, and maybe totally
rethink this. Like, drinkingthing. You must be really
suffering, man, this, this mustbe really, really hard for you.

(01:02:31):
And I'm sorry, and I want to, Iwant to listen like, if I'm
down, if you want to sit, I wantto talk like, when did this
start? What happened? What whatdots got connected? Number one,
that reduces their shame andallows them to feel a little bit
more open. He might not beready. He might say, Screw you.
I don't want to talk about it.
Oh no, no. Everything is fine.
Don't worry about it, right? Hemight. And then you just say, I

(01:02:53):
get it. I'm here if, if you everwant to. And then you can follow
up periodically if you want to,or just be there when he's
ready. I will give another pieceof advice, though, for family
members, because you're you'reaffected by because you're a
friend, but there could befamily members, people really
close to them, that are affectedmuch, much more deeply. Right?
Kind of life functioning, youknow, existential, sort of

(01:03:17):
impact. I recommend, unless, ifthe person is literally unsafe,
like the behavior they engage incould kill them tomorrow, then
scratch what I'm saying. Theyneed to go somewhere
residential, somewhereinpatient, where they can be
medically managed to be safeagain, and then we can have the
conversation I'm about to havestart at the lowest level of

(01:03:38):
intervention that may help them,that may just be a book or maybe
a therapist or something alongthose lines. If that doesn't
work, you slowly bring up thedose of the the impact that you
have. So a lot of people want tostart with residential
treatment, but it's reallyexpensive. It's really hard to
commit to. Most people won'tagree to go to 3060, or 90 days
of treatment. So start at alower intensity, but don't let

(01:03:59):
your foot off the gas. Right?
I'll go back to something wetalked about. Maybe there's a
good way to wrap up. It isreally uncomfortable to go talk
to somebody about behavior thatthey engage in that makes their
life and everybody else's lifemiserable. That's uncomfortable,
so most of us avoid it, but inthe spirit of what we talked

(01:04:20):
about earlier, some discomforthas to be tolerated to move up
in the world, to grow, to engageand to develop. If you really
care about somebody, don't shyaway from the uncomfortable
conversations. Go have them.
Now. I

love it. That's great. And I love too that you
talk like again, what we talkedabout, how just the shame that I
wanted to bring that up again,because I think that there's not
a lot of shame to be had,because we are all dealing with
something. We're all even ifwe're not addicted, we all have
anxiety and discomfort. Sothere's nothing wrong with that,
and I think we're all in thisworld to help each other, so I

(01:04:56):
love it. Thank you so much fordoing this podcast and writing
this great. Look, thank you forhaving me and yeah, come back
anytime.

Adi Jaffe (01:05:03):
I appreciate it, Chuck, thank you so much. Have a
great rest of your day. Yeah,you

too. Bye, bye, bye, one of a

THEME SONG (01:05:09):
kind, from the rockers to the wise men, you

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Dr. Adi Jaffe, Addiction Specialist & Author of "Unhooked: Free Yourself From Addiction Forever"

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Dr. Adi Jaffe, Addiction Specialist & Author of "Unhooked: Free Yourself From Addiction Forever"

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