Larry Wilmore discusses his fascination with historical figures like Harry Houdini, the Marx Brothers, and the Beatles, attributing their success to the zeitgeist and cultural timing. He reflects on his own career, including his work on "The Daily Show" and his intentional efforts to create and produce shows like "The PJs" and "The Bernie Mac Show." Wilmore also touches on the challenges of maintaining relevance, the impact of social media, and the importance of evolving with the times. He mentions his current projects, including a podcast and a Hulu show, and his interest in magic, highlighting his diverse career and ongoing creative pursuits.
00:00 - Intro
00:20 - Creative Artists, Timing & Zeitgeist
08:50 - The Daily Show & Jon Stewart's Voice
12:28 - Taylor Swift, Beyonce, The Beatles & Kanye West
16:13 - Larry's Career Arc & Intentional Choices
23:23 - Making It Through the Lows & Disappointments
28:01 - Larry's Book
29:08 - Black in the Air Podcast & Reasonable Doubt
29:40 - Magic, Touring & Other Lanes
30:48 - Outro
Larry Wilmore website:
https://www.thelarrywilmore.com/
Chuck Shute link tree:
Thanks for Listening & Shute for the Moon!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
THEME SONG (00:04):
Vanity down with the heavy stars rock and rolling
through the cool guitars shopsgot the questions digging so
sharp, feeling back layershitting the heart.
Chuck Shute (00:20):
Hello, hi, Larry, how are you good? Yeah, thank
you so much for doing this. Ireally appreciate it. Very
grateful, because you've been onsome big shows, so the time to
do mine is a very grateful,
Unknown (00:34):
Sure, no problem. Yeah.
I really enjoyed
Chuck Shute (00:37):
your interview with Bill Maher. That was on club
random. That was really good.
Oh,
Larry Wilmore (00:41):
thanks. Yeah, that was, I think, about a year
ago now. Yeah, that was fun,
Chuck Shute (00:44):
really. Okay, wow,
Larry Wilmore (00:46):
yeah, yeah, last summer, okay, yeah, because it
was, it was around the timeduring the Republican
Convention, because I did hisshow at around the time, yeah,
Chuck Shute (00:57):
oh, okay. And then you just, I think Neil Brennan,
that was just a few weeks ago,right? It's just in his Yeah,
that's fun. The interestingthing that I, I thought when I
when I saw the club, random one,was when you were talking about
how you were kid, I think wewere a kid. You were talking
about reading a book about HarryHoudini, Buster Keaton and the
Marx Brothers and The Beatles,and you were so fascinated by
(01:19):
what made people big, and that'slike me, I'm so fascinated by
that. So what conclusions didyou come from all that, those
rabbit holes?
Larry Wilmore (01:28):
So have we, have we officially started here,
Chuck Shute (01:30):
or, yeah, yeah, is this,
Larry Wilmore (01:32):
yeah? Just didn't know. Didn't know if we run uh,
you know, it just became, theybecame mini obsessions, you
know, that just never went awaylike these attachments that just
became not just fascinated withtheir journeys, but also in love
with them as artists too, youknow? So it was a combination
thing. And, you know, I'm justenamored by they just each of
(01:56):
those examples just hadsomething that was a little
different, a little special. Andthen the the combination of, you
know, the events around thetimes or whatever that made them
what they were, I just find allthat interesting, you know. But,
um, other than them beingcollected into my group of
(02:18):
favorites, you know, no otherbig extrapolation, or anything
like that. So there wasn't,
Chuck Shute (02:23):
like, a common theme that you discovered, that
they were a way, a technique orsomething that they used that
made they made them sosuccessful?
Larry Wilmore (02:32):
Well, it wasn't so much what made them
successful in terms of what theydid. It's more so why did they
become successful in theirtimes? What was it about the
zeitgeist that they happen toconnect with, or what was, what
was the intersection at thetime, you know, that made them
(02:54):
big? You know, like in Houdini'scase, nobody had really promoted
themselves like Houdini haddone, you know, not quite to
that kind of self promotion andthe spectacle of being able to
just escape from anything, had aa fascination for people, you
know, the fact that he couldjust show up at a jail, you
(03:17):
know, any jail, and challengethem to lock him up. I mean,
think of the fantasy that is forpeople at the time, that you
couldn't be locked up. Here's asuper human being that you
couldn't lock him up. I mean, hecaptured people's fascination
and imaginations at the time. Soit's more than he wasn't just a
magician. He did something elseto capture the imagination of
people that then resonated andpushed him to just made him even
(03:41):
bigger, and the times were justright for it. You know, he was a
man of his time, because you hadpromoters before, but they
weren't quite promoting theright thing. You know, that
lined up with the Zeit guys. Youhave a group like the Beatles. I
mean, of course we had rockgroups and all that stuff. And,
you know, pop groups orwhatever. You know, you had the
(04:03):
phenomena of Elvis Presley. Youknow, that had happened before
the Beatles, before that waskind of Frank Sinatra. You know,
these little 10 year periodswhere another person would pop
up. So it's like, well, theBeatles are the biggest example
of that, and they have yet to bepassed. In my estimation, people
can argue about that. Somepeople say Michael Jackson. I
(04:25):
still don't think he passed theBeatles. I think he may, because
I don't think his music as is asimportant as the Beatles. I
think his fame was as big, butnot his music, you know. Um,
music was good, but it's justnot the Beatles catalog, you
know. And the Beatles catalog isstill enduring. So here's like,
why did that happen at thatparticular time? You know, no
(04:45):
one bet their money on them ayear and a half early, no one
was willing to bet their moneyon that group, like no one, you
know, it was Brian Epstein,just, you know, might have been
attracted to them. Might havebeen some homoerotic thing going
on with John at first. Whoknows? You know, but. Yes, but
he definitely saw somethingspecial about them. And the
thing that Brian Epstein sawthat was special about them, he
(05:05):
was right, and it was the thingthat people connected to that
you can't bank on. So, like theBeatles, didn't plan on that.
They didn't know that they wouldhit America right after the
death of John F Kennedy, thatthe country would be mourning.
And this excitement that theybrought was kind of a salve to,
you know, kind of this thingkind of hanging over in the air,
and it happened at a time whenthe Cultural Revolution, like
(05:28):
all those things, line up,right? So it's like, who could,
who could plan that nobody can.
The Beatles didn't plan that. Itwas an accident for them. But
I'm fascinated by the zeitgeistitself, that the zeitgeist chose
that group, you know, the rightthing at the right time and
launched it, you know. So that'swhy it fascinates me, kind of
from a historical standpoint,you know,
Chuck Shute (05:49):
tell us almost about timing is what you're
saying, yeah, it's everything
Larry Wilmore (05:53):
lines, like, it's the confluence of things. It's
planets lining up, you know,it's like, yeah, it may happen
once in a million years, butsometimes it happens the
planets, I know. I mean, wethrow out that expression, so
I'm just kind of fascinated whenthat happens, you know. And why
does it happen? Who did ithappen for, you know? And the
fact that it caught me up and ittwo years later, like I didn't
(06:15):
become a fan till after Lennon'sdeath, but I was caught up in
the same way that people werebefore, you know, and I'm like,
why is that? What happened? Whyam I caught up in this? You
know? So
Chuck Shute (06:26):
part of it's too I think it's emotion, right? All
those Houdini and Keaton andMarx Brothers Beatles, it all
like it brings some sort ofemotion to the surface for
people. There's
Larry Wilmore (06:37):
something, yeah, I think it's different in each
case, you know, I think the MarxBrothers, the Marx Brothers
certainly weren't as big as theBeatles, even though the Beatles
were compared to the MarxBrothers, ironically, you know.
So there was some connectionthere. But, you know, the Marx
Brothers hit at a time when thecountry was probably at its
lowest in terms of how it feltabout itself, you know, the
(06:58):
Great Depression and all thatstuff. But there was a new
phenomena in movies calledtalkies, talkies, you know,
because before that, it was allsilent, and so we're used to
physical comedy, you know, likewe go back to Keaton and
chaplain and that kind of stuff,almost like what cartoons kind
of took over that realm fromthose movies, a little bit. But
(07:19):
people weren't used to the typeof humor the Marx Brothers
brought that was this anarchy,kind of against institutions and
that type of thing. It kind ofbroke down form grouch of dared
to say the things. And thatenergy is still there. It's
still in the Marx Brothersfilms. You know, when they had
the revival in the early 70s, itwas huge with showing animal
(07:42):
crackers on the big screen asraw movie as that is the
counterculture at the time,related to the Marx Brothers.
You know, whereas you could haveshowed the Three Stooges, who
wouldn't have had that reaction,or any other group, and I, and
I'm like, why are the MarxBrothers resonating for so long?
Like, what is this thing grouchis doing that is resonant over
(08:02):
such a long period of time, youknow, that still has resonance.
You could show the revival ofthose early movies right now,
and it would still get biglaughs. You know, people would
still laugh at them. I don'tunderstand that, you know, it's
just interesting to me.
Chuck Shute (08:17):
Oh, yeah, no. All that stuff is so fascinating
because I interview so manypeople, and you see so much
talent, and especially withmusicians, you see people that
are so musically talented, butfor some whatever reason, they
never made it. They never theirstuff, never resonated with
people. They never had that hitsong. And yeah, yeah,
Larry Wilmore (08:34):
so talent is not the thing, because you're right.
So many people are telling meit's the zeitgeist. You have to
line up, be lucky enough to lineup with the Zeitgeist and just
have what The Zeitgeist needs atthat time, you know,
Chuck Shute (08:47):
yeah. Do you think, as part of a member of The Daily
Show, the original Daily Show?
Do you think part of thatsuccess was the timing, because
John Stuart, and then you hadBush as the president, and like,
his reactions to everything Bushwould say. I mean, he didn't
even really have to write ajoke. He'd just show a clip of
Bush, and then you'd show JonStewart face and cracking up.
It's
Larry Wilmore (09:10):
such a great example too, because nobody
cared about the daily showbefore then, you know, yeah. And
I always say the Daily Show wasmore of a parody show at first.
It was kind of a parody of thenews, you know, and John slowly
turned it into a satire of thenews. So where the daily, the
initial Daily Show, focused onthe form of news shows and made
(09:32):
fun of it, where John focused onthe content of new shows, you
know, and commented on that. Andhe did it at the right time,
because nobody, you know, forthe Smothers Brothers did that
in the 60s, but people stoppedcaring about that after a while.
So nobody cared about whatcomedians had to say, content
wise, for a long time. You know,in terms of the way they cared
(09:56):
about the Smothers Brothers atthat time, right? So when John
did it, it stuck. It startedfresh again. And the whole
zeitgeist of it all is thecontroversy of the 2000
election, where people thought,you know, Bucha wasn't a valid
president, and all this stuff,he had all this anger from
people who was invalidated, andnow this war starts. So here
comes Jon Stewart mocking thesethings that you know is supposed
(10:18):
to be given to us as truth thatwe're supposed to accept. And
like both Democrats andRepublicans, voted for this war.
Jon Stewart is against it. Whothe fuck does he think he is?
You know, so he became an avatarfor all that energy that felt
like they weren't being heard.
Remember, there's no socialmedia at that time. There's no
real way for people to be partof the conversation, really,
(10:40):
unless legacy media was willingto give them a voice. But legacy
media is like, sorry, you know,yeah, it's
Chuck Shute (10:48):
interesting, because I remember when I was a
kid, Jon Stewart was on MTV, andhe had a show, and it was really
good, and I really liked it. Andthen so CBS, I think, picked him
up and they and but then hisshow bombed on CBS for whatever
reason, and then he went to TheDaily Show. And then, you know,
he's it, he became, like thebest talk show host at the time,
I think,
Larry Wilmore (11:08):
yeah, so that's kind of interesting, too. So he
definitely lined up with thezeitgeist for sure. You know,
created a whole new kind ofavenue for comedians to critique
in their comedy, I guess, which,you know, of course, existed
before, but you know, peoplecared about it differently. I
guess you could say,
Chuck Shute (11:27):
yeah, no, it's and then I feel like what happened
was, then there's all thesecopycat shows, and all these
people were trying to do thedaily show, and it just, it
never, a lot of those, it justnever resonated with me. I was
like, No, Jon Stewart is, like,that's he's just being himself.
I don't feel like he was tryingto play a character. He was just
reacting to stuff naturally, andthat's what was made it so
Larry Wilmore (11:49):
funny. No, you're right. That is John's
personality. In fact, it's evenhard for John to recreate that
himself on The Daily Show afterleaving, coming back,
Chuck Shute (11:57):
right? Yeah, because now he's back as like,
once a week, or something likethat, I think, but it's
Larry Wilmore (12:01):
still not quite what it was. Yeah, because it
can't be, you know, because it'sat that time and everything, you
know, it's like with the Beatlesput out a new song now,
basically, it's just not thesame as, hey, June. It just
because it can't be. It's notthe right, it's not the same
time. You know, the zeitgeisthas moved on and chosen other
people, but you still have thatspecial place, but it's the time
(12:25):
just isn't right.
Chuck Shute (12:26):
Yeah, who do you what do you think are the
successful people now that youfind so fascinating in 2025
Larry Wilmore (12:33):
that's a good question. It's funny, and I've
never been asked this type ofquestion. You know, sometimes
it's kind of hard to know, butif we just look at who are the
biggest people, we can start toask the question, Does their
success, you know, go beyond ourunderstanding of it, maybe. Or
go beyond mere like, popularity?
Is there something else goingon? I guess the two biggest
(12:57):
examples, maybe Taylor Swift andBeyonce from different points of
view, you know. So we may lookback and go, what was going on
with it, and they both have hadpretty good runs, you know,
pretty good runs at being at thetop and having those kind of
audiences. So those might be twoexamples where we might look
back or something and thinkabout, what, what is it about
that? Why are they? Why are theyheld up there? They're
(13:19):
untouchables, both of them, youknow, and have been that way for
a while. Yeah, it's interesting.
Chuck Shute (13:25):
Yeah, because I when I think there's so much
more poppy and but then again,maybe the Beatles, they started
out that way too. So maybeTaylor Swift and Beyonce will
have that Sergeant Pepper'salbum type of thing
Larry Wilmore (13:38):
or not, you know, because different times wanting
different things, you know, wemay be in the time where the
zeitgeist just wants us to be ina relationship with people for a
while, you know, where theBeatles were not just changed
music, but they changed theirmusic, you know, but that's what
they did at the time. So it wastheir evolution itself which
(13:59):
kind of mirrored the culturalrevolution that was happening,
so that's where it lined up. Ifthey had just stayed as she
loves you, yeah, yeah, yeah, andnot really change that style,
they would have been gone in acouple of years, because it was
changing so fast. But they endedup leading the culture by doing
Sergeant Pepper or revolver andthose type of things. Sergeant
Pepper was way ahead of theculture at that time. And then
(14:20):
the culture had to catch up tothe Beatles, you know. So I
don't know if you could say thatabout nothing in Taylor Swift
and Beyonce. I don't know ifthey're leading the culture in
that same way, you know, or bytheir I don't know if their
content has the same effect. Ithink their fame is similar. I'm
not sure if the content is Icould be wrong on that, but,
yeah,
Chuck Shute (14:41):
what do you think about Kanye? Because, like, he
is seems to be going off thedeep end a little bit lately. I
feel like he started out withsome very brilliant music, and
then he's just gotten so bizarrenow that, I mean, I honestly
like worry about him, like hismental health.
Larry Wilmore (14:58):
I'm not worried about him because I. Don't care
about him that much, you know,so to a worry means that I would
still care about him, you know,I think, you know, he was such a
narcissist, you know, that it, Ikind of think it kind of
overtook his good instincts andturned them into bad instincts.
It seemed like, over time,brilliant artists, though, no
(15:20):
doubt about that. You know, hishis early stuffs is still good
music. You can still put it onlate registration. College
Dropout still sounds it doesn'tsound dated, really, you know,
which is, how do you do that?
It's pretty good feat, you know.
But you know, the stuff he'sputting out now, it's a, it's a
reaction to something that noone asked him to react to.
(15:46):
That's what it seems like. Okay,okay. Well, then down with the
Jews. Then, like, what do youwhat exactly you're reacting to?
Because I don't think we askedfor this reaction. You know, no
one's asking you to fight theJews. Kanye, you know you're
doing you've just made that, youmade that fight up in your head,
you know? So who knows? It's theopposite of the Zeitgeist thing.
(16:08):
I think it's in an upside downway, you know?
Chuck Shute (16:11):
Yeah, well, so with your own career, do you feel
like you because you've done somany amazing things, and you've
acted, you've done comedy,you've done, you know, The Daily
Show stuff, then you do theproducing and the writing. Do
you feel like you're justconstantly reinventing yourself?
Larry Wilmore (16:25):
Um, I don't know if I'm reinventing but I always
try to evolve and try to keepgoing forward. I don't like to
stay in the past some things. Solike, for instance, let's so a
show doesn't go or somethinglike that. I don't keep trying
to do to do it. I really I moveon so fast and just try to go to
the next thing and think ofsomething else. And I keep
(16:45):
trying to refresh what I careabout, what's interesting, what
what do I want to dramatize,what I want to talk about, you
know? So it's always a movingtarget for me. Whereas some
people, they'll have an ideathat they're working on for 20
years, you know, bring it to thescreen. And I give those people
a lot of credit. You know, it'sgreat. You know, some ideas I've
had for a long time, and ittakes a while for them to go
but, but I also move on quickly,too, because I want to make sure
(17:11):
that I the thing I'm doing. Ihave a point of view on I have a
passion, and there's a reasonwhy I wanted up there more so
than just the flattery, thatit's something that I thought of
that's really not good enough.
There's got to be somethingelse, you know. Yeah,
Chuck Shute (17:24):
how do you continually get all these, all
this work? I mean, just so manyshows that you've worked on, is
it just once you've kind ofgotten that in, then you made
these connections? And becausesome people, like, teeter out
after one or two things, andthen that's the end of their
career. Well,
Larry Wilmore (17:39):
I think, I mean, I appreciate the comment, but I
think when you look at it overtime, it looks like, man,
there's so much stuff, butreally, in the scheme of things,
it really isn't a lot of things.
There's just a lot of variedthings, you know? So I have
varied interests, and so Ifigured out that there's no
reason to not explore the variedinterest that I have just figure
(18:02):
out the the lane that I have toput it in at a certain time in
order to do it, you know. So Istarted off as a pretty much a
stand up and an actor, and whenI started writing for TV, it was
really as a way to creatematerial for myself, because I
just felt like I was differentin Hollywood, just wouldn't find
me. So I did it purposefully,this other lane, and then the
(18:24):
performing I just didoccasionally, and then I
realized that I really liked thewriting, producing, got good at
it. And so the more I did it,the more I just thought of my
careers. How can I do thedifferent things that I'm
interested in, and what lanescan I put them in? I have to
make time for this and that. Soeverything kind of happened as a
result of wanting to dodifferent things, and not just
(18:46):
one thing, you know, andoccasionally something lines up
with that. But then there may bea period of time where it
doesn't, but I'm doing theseother things. So when you look
at it together, it looks likeall of that happened at once,
but it really didn't, you know,separation in it. So is
Chuck Shute (19:04):
it is a lot of you knocking down doors, like within
living color. I don't that was,maybe you consider that maybe
one of your first big writingbreaks, absolutely, did they?
Did they offer you the job fromyour comedy? Or did you, like,
bug them and say, Hey, give me ashot. Or, how did that work?
Larry Wilmore (19:18):
Yeah. So that was me doing my due diligence and
making a change in my career atthat time, because I was mainly
a performer, and that's when Ifirst had the thought, I don't
think Holly was going to findwhat I'm doing. I got to figure
out. I got to create a space formyself. So I decided to try to
get a job writing andtelevision. The first job I had
was at Rick D's into the night.
It was this late night show. Idon't know. He was a DJ, yeah,
(19:40):
you know, Rick D's is a, heactually had a song called, uh,
Disco Duck. Disco
Chuck Shute (19:46):
Duck. Yeah, that's Rick D's in the weekly top 40.
Yeah, right.
Larry Wilmore (19:50):
He was the, the bland case of, case of, I guess
he's
Chuck Shute (19:56):
brilliant. Casey case is pretty bland too, isn't
Larry Wilmore (19:58):
it? The Casey. He said, at least he had the voice
always coming in it. Number one,you always talk like that, but
so when I got on in color, thatwas me. I reached out to them
for sure, you know, because Iwanted to give, wanted to keep
getting jobs in television. So Iimpressed them enough that they
(20:18):
hired me. But that wasintentional on my part, to get
into that world, you know, andgo down that road. So it's time
that that happened. Veryintentional. When I started
creating shows, you know, cocreated the PJs and then created
the Birmingham act show, myfirst two big ones, that was
intentional. I didn't want tojust be a staff writer on
(20:39):
someone else's show. I knew inorder for me to survive in
Hollywood, I had to startcreating stuff. You know, my
joke when I was in the PJs, Isaid, if I had not created the
PJs, I never would have beenhired on it. Because, just my
opinion, honestly, I have tocreate shows in order for me to
be hired on these shows. Yeah,
Chuck Shute (20:57):
so how did you reach out to Eddie Murphy? Or
did he reach out to you? Or theydon't.
Larry Wilmore (21:02):
At that time, Eddie was working with Brian
Grazer and Ron Howard. They hadjust done Apollo 13, and Eddie
was doing nutty professor. Andthey had were producing with
Eddie. And Eddie had looked atApollo 13, and he was
remembering this show called theThunderbirds that had these
puppets in it and everything.
And he had top brands, so it'dbe fun to do a show like with
(21:23):
puppets or something, you know,puppets in the projects, or
something like that. Anyone dosomething different. And then
one of the executives thatimagine had heard this, and I
had a deal at Disney at thetime. It was like my first deal,
trying to create a show. And shehad called and said, Hey, Larry
Eddie Murphy, wants to do thisanimated show, you'd be
interested. And first at that,she meant, like, a Saturday
morning cartoon, like, I don'twant to do some animated show.
(21:44):
Like, what are you talkingabout? And then the more she
talked about that, oh, thatsounds interesting. So then I
took the meeting with Eddie, andreally kind of impressed him in
the meeting, made him laugh, andthat kind of stuff. And so
that's how I ended up doing andcalled in a buddy of mine to
help me do it. That's really howit happened. Happened that
simple that somebody who I had ameeting with a couple of times
had remembered me and thoughtI'd be the best person to kind
(22:07):
of fulfill that, because it wasjust a whim of Eddie's saying
puppets in the project. Yeah,that sounds funny. That's how
things happen sometimes, youknow. But it took me and Steve
Tompkins, who did it, to takethat and create a world for it
and start developing with it.
And the Will Vinton company wasattached. They did the
(22:27):
California Raisins and that sortof thing to kind of do. We
figured out doing a stop motion,because that's what really, the
type of feel Eddie wanted to dowould make it really a different
thing on TV that just wasn'tthere. So that's what that's
kind of how that kind of form.
So once
Chuck Shute (22:45):
you're kind of in that world, and then you just
kept kind of parlayingeverything. But
Larry Wilmore (22:50):
I've always been intentional about it. It doesn't
mean things are going to happen,but I've always been
intentional. So I've alwayssought that type of thing, or
those type of interactions orcollaborations and trying to
find something new to do andthat kind of stuff. It doesn't
always work out. Though there's,there could be years where
that's not going on, but youkeep busy doing other things,
(23:11):
and then sometimes it can lineup, you know, I've been fired
from things, you know, I'vecertainly had many lows in it.
But you know, I've had, I'vebeen fortunate. You know, I've
had a lot of highs in it, too.
So how do
Chuck Shute (23:23):
you get through those lows? Like, do you ever
think of giving up or quittingor many
Larry Wilmore (23:28):
times, it's not easy. I got when I did the bring
him back show, I won every awardto possibly win, including an
Emmy for writing. You know,which I was the first, you know,
black writer to win that EmmyAward for writing. You know,
half hour shows, very historic.
We want to, want to Humanitas, aPeabody Award. We got a TV
Critics Award, and Fox fired me.
They just never, never quiteunderstood what I was doing, you
(23:52):
know. And I would have battleswith them all the time, you
know. And, and it was real downfor me. I didn't know. I
thought, you know, can I workagain after something like this?
But I have to tell you, so manywriters in the industry reached
out to me and gave me COVID.
Said, Larry, your show isbrilliant, you know, stick in
there. I'll never forget, uh,James L Brooks, you know, who
(24:14):
was almost fired from The MaryTyler Moore Show when he did the
pilot. And the network hated itand everything, you know, and
they almost fired them, and atthe last minute, Mary tell more,
kind of saved their jobs. And ofcourse, we all know what
happened. Became this huge hit,but they didn't like it at
first. That the pilot they hatedwhile that they were watching,
you know, just didn't understandit. They thought it was not
(24:34):
good. And it's it. This is allin the DVDs of it. He tells the
story, and for him to reach outand tell me to hang in there.
Steven Bucha, who had createdHill Street Blues and all that
was another writer who reachedout to me so many so it was the
encouragement I got from mypeers that gave me kind of
lifted me up at that time. And Iknow I said it became a badge of
(24:54):
honor. You know that those.
People who supposedly knowbetter, and a lot of them aren't
even in the business anymore, bythe way, and I'm still going,
you know, yeah, that's crazy,because then, like,
Chuck Shute (25:07):
your net was your next job the office, or that
was, like, a couple years later,right? Which is, like,
Larry Wilmore (25:11):
that's pretty much, pretty much, right, after
I had gone to NBC, I did anoverall deal there, and I ran,
Whoopi Goldberg had a show inNew York that I ran for a bit.
She was like in a hotel, and itwas a little rocky. So I was
developing a pilot at the time,and after I did my pilot, the
pilot didn't end up going, butthe pilot didn't end up going,
(25:35):
but at that time, they wereabout to do the office, and so I
was at NBC, and I knew GregDaniels already. He when He was
doing king of the hill, I wasdoing the PJs. We were kind of
both in an animation category,and I would see him at the Emmys
and that kind of stuff. And kindof got to know him. And so I
kind of went in the office as,really a consulting producer. I
was still trying to create showsand stuff. See, in those days,
(25:57):
like a lot of the shows I cameup with didn't quite go, but I
was doing the office, so that'swhat I mean. So you're doing
these things that are not going,not going, but then this other
thing you're on, you know, andyou're a part of. So I was there
for the first three seasons ofthe office. In the beginning,
nobody thought it was going todo anything, you know. So it was
real interesting to be on thattrain. Yeah, it was fun.
Chuck Shute (26:17):
That's crazy. You still get paid for the stuff
that doesn't make it, though,right? Like, if you make a while
you're doing
Larry Wilmore (26:21):
it, sure, but you're also, like, it's
frustrating, you know, because,of course, you believe it and
everything, but sometimes it'lllead to to other things. You
know, one of the pilots that Iwrote was one of my favorites at
the time. It didn't end up goingbut different execs read it over
the years, and it opened up somedoors for me. It was, it was
(26:42):
called Fat Man, skinny wife. Wasthe title of it. It's a great
title. Yeah, I love the title.
And it was my take on on thesitcom trope. You know, was
always a Batman, skinny life,but it was a sitcom, and it was
really about kind of the BernieMac show, and I was the
showrunner and all that. Andthen it was all my jokes about
network execs, everything inthere was in it, you know, and
(27:04):
working with this big star, itwas really funny and and the
network really did like it a lottoo, you know. But at the time,
here's what I was up against.
The other show that was beingdeveloped at NBC at that time
was a little thing called 30rock. And then the other and a
drama they were producing waslive on the Sunset Strip. The
thing that what's his name,David from West Wing, that was
(27:26):
kind of his behind the sceneslook at Saturday Night Live. So
here I had another behind thescenes look at a show. So mine
was a commercial one that didn'tgo so I ended up going over to
Fox. They didn't do it, but theyliked it a lot, but that was a
disappointment. But for years, Iwas able to use that as a sample
(27:46):
that people read, oh, this ishilarious, you know. And so
sometimes the thing that doesn'tgo can be used as something, you
know, of an example ofsomething, wow, that's
Chuck Shute (27:56):
really cool. Well, yeah, I know you got to get out
of here in a couple of minutes.
But, uh, yeah, it's, you have tocome back because you have
someone. I was gonna bring upyour book. It was so good. The
Oh yeah, that was, I waslaughing so hard, so that I'm
kind of like, wait, is hekidding, or Is he serious? But I
was laughing. It was like, theblack people and UFOs. I thought
that was hilarious. And, yeah,it was great stuff. And about
Larry Wilmore (28:18):
the book, which came now it seems so long ago.
The original concept of it waskind of half in theirs, but it,
there's remnants of it. But theoriginal concept was that
there's, I have, this fictionalLarry Wilmore, and that me, the
real Larry Wilmore had collectedhis black thoughts over the
years and kind of put all theseblack thoughts in a book, you
(28:42):
know, and and I did that as acourtesy to the audience, you
know, not knowing, not knowingquite what happened to this
fictional Larry when I did quitepull that off. I don't, you
know, it went away somewhere,but as you read it, you can see
remnants of that idea in there,and that's what that collection
is supposed to represent. Youknow, the time he had a radio
show, you know, the time hewrote this, you know, the time
(29:03):
he did an essay, you know,
Chuck Shute (29:05):
yeah, no, that was great stuff. What anything else
you have to promote right now?
That's, I mean, besides, youhave your own podcast, and what
else back in the air is
Larry Wilmore (29:15):
my podcast. I pop up on TV here and there. There's
a show I'm producing, a Hulucalled reasonable down to
produce with Kerry Washington,we're doing the third season.
It's a fun it's, it's not quitewhat people would expect in my
lane, necessarily, because it'skind of that soapy thriller,
that type of thing, you know.
But it's really a lot of fun.
But I'm always working, tryingto bring something to the
(29:36):
screen, you know. And you know,something, there's always
something different I do. A lotof people didn't know I'm also
an amateur magician, and I'll domagic shows. Many times I
remember the Magic Castle. Sothere's a lot of lanes that you
know like to occupy. So thereyou go. Yeah.
Chuck Shute (29:53):
Do you ever you still tour? Do you do shows? Or
is it just more in the LA area?
Or I did
Larry Wilmore (29:57):
last fall, I did a short tour where I come by.
Time, kind of my politicalobservations with the magic
show, trying to get people tosomething different. It was so
much fun. I hadn't really beenout on the road in a while, so
it was great seeing fans again,you know. And just, I would love
to take the podcast, though, onthe road again. I haven't done
that in a while, where I've doneit on the road, because I love
(30:18):
that kind of interaction too.
Especially I love havingconversations like, I'm sure you
love it too, you know, just it'sso much fun talking to people,
because you sometimes you neverknow where the conversations are
going to go. You know, eventhough you may have a structure
for breaking the structure is somuch fun when you have a really
interesting guess. You know,absolutely, I love doing that,
so I may figure out a way to dosome more of that.
Chuck Shute (30:40):
Okay, sounds good.
Well, thank you so much fordoing this, and I'll get this
out soon. It was
Larry Wilmore (30:44):
my pleasure. Nice being nice to meet you. All
right. All right. Take care,from
THEME SONG (30:49):
the rockers to the wise men. You
Vanity down with the heavy stars rock and rolling
through the cool guitars shopsgot the questions digging so
sharp, feeling back layershitting the heart.
Chuck Shute (00:20):
Hello, hi, Larry, how are you good? Yeah, thank
you so much for doing this. Ireally appreciate it. Very
grateful, because you've been onsome big shows, so the time to
do mine is a very grateful,
Unknown (00:34):
Sure, no problem. Yeah.
I really enjoyed
Chuck Shute (00:37):
your interview with Bill Maher. That was on club
random. That was really good.
Oh,
Larry Wilmore (00:41):
thanks. Yeah, that was, I think, about a year
ago now. Yeah, that was fun,
Chuck Shute (00:44):
really. Okay, wow,
Larry Wilmore (00:46):
yeah, yeah, last summer, okay, yeah, because it
was, it was around the timeduring the Republican
Convention, because I did hisshow at around the time, yeah,
Chuck Shute (00:57):
oh, okay. And then you just, I think Neil Brennan,
that was just a few weeks ago,right? It's just in his Yeah,
that's fun. The interestingthing that I, I thought when I
when I saw the club, random one,was when you were talking about
how you were kid, I think wewere a kid. You were talking
about reading a book about HarryHoudini, Buster Keaton and the
Marx Brothers and The Beatles,and you were so fascinated by
(01:19):
what made people big, and that'slike me, I'm so fascinated by
that. So what conclusions didyou come from all that, those
rabbit holes?
Larry Wilmore (01:28):
So have we, have we officially started here,
Chuck Shute (01:30):
or, yeah, yeah, is this,
Larry Wilmore (01:32):
yeah? Just didn't know. Didn't know if we run uh,
you know, it just became, theybecame mini obsessions, you
know, that just never went awaylike these attachments that just
became not just fascinated withtheir journeys, but also in love
with them as artists too, youknow? So it was a combination
thing. And, you know, I'm justenamored by they just each of
(01:56):
those examples just hadsomething that was a little
different, a little special. Andthen the the combination of, you
know, the events around thetimes or whatever that made them
what they were, I just find allthat interesting, you know. But,
um, other than them beingcollected into my group of
(02:18):
favorites, you know, no otherbig extrapolation, or anything
like that. So there wasn't,
Chuck Shute (02:23):
like, a common theme that you discovered, that
they were a way, a technique orsomething that they used that
made they made them sosuccessful?
Larry Wilmore (02:32):
Well, it wasn't so much what made them
successful in terms of what theydid. It's more so why did they
become successful in theirtimes? What was it about the
zeitgeist that they happen toconnect with, or what was, what
was the intersection at thetime, you know, that made them
(02:54):
big? You know, like in Houdini'scase, nobody had really promoted
themselves like Houdini haddone, you know, not quite to
that kind of self promotion andthe spectacle of being able to
just escape from anything, had aa fascination for people, you
know, the fact that he couldjust show up at a jail, you
(03:17):
know, any jail, and challengethem to lock him up. I mean,
think of the fantasy that is forpeople at the time, that you
couldn't be locked up. Here's asuper human being that you
couldn't lock him up. I mean, hecaptured people's fascination
and imaginations at the time. Soit's more than he wasn't just a
magician. He did something elseto capture the imagination of
people that then resonated andpushed him to just made him even
(03:41):
bigger, and the times were justright for it. You know, he was a
man of his time, because you hadpromoters before, but they
weren't quite promoting theright thing. You know, that
lined up with the Zeit guys. Youhave a group like the Beatles. I
mean, of course we had rockgroups and all that stuff. And,
you know, pop groups orwhatever. You know, you had the
(04:03):
phenomena of Elvis Presley. Youknow, that had happened before
the Beatles, before that waskind of Frank Sinatra. You know,
these little 10 year periodswhere another person would pop
up. So it's like, well, theBeatles are the biggest example
of that, and they have yet to bepassed. In my estimation, people
can argue about that. Somepeople say Michael Jackson. I
(04:25):
still don't think he passed theBeatles. I think he may, because
I don't think his music as is asimportant as the Beatles. I
think his fame was as big, butnot his music, you know. Um,
music was good, but it's justnot the Beatles catalog, you
know. And the Beatles catalog isstill enduring. So here's like,
why did that happen at thatparticular time? You know, no
(04:45):
one bet their money on them ayear and a half early, no one
was willing to bet their moneyon that group, like no one, you
know, it was Brian Epstein,just, you know, might have been
attracted to them. Might havebeen some homoerotic thing going
on with John at first. Whoknows? You know, but. Yes, but
he definitely saw somethingspecial about them. And the
thing that Brian Epstein sawthat was special about them, he
(05:05):
was right, and it was the thingthat people connected to that
you can't bank on. So, like theBeatles, didn't plan on that.
They didn't know that they wouldhit America right after the
death of John F Kennedy, thatthe country would be mourning.
And this excitement that theybrought was kind of a salve to,
you know, kind of this thingkind of hanging over in the air,
and it happened at a time whenthe Cultural Revolution, like
(05:28):
all those things, line up,right? So it's like, who could,
who could plan that nobody can.
The Beatles didn't plan that. Itwas an accident for them. But
I'm fascinated by the zeitgeistitself, that the zeitgeist chose
that group, you know, the rightthing at the right time and
launched it, you know. So that'swhy it fascinates me, kind of
from a historical standpoint,you know,
Chuck Shute (05:49):
tell us almost about timing is what you're
saying, yeah, it's everything
Larry Wilmore (05:53):
lines, like, it's the confluence of things. It's
planets lining up, you know,it's like, yeah, it may happen
once in a million years, butsometimes it happens the
planets, I know. I mean, wethrow out that expression, so
I'm just kind of fascinated whenthat happens, you know. And why
does it happen? Who did ithappen for, you know? And the
fact that it caught me up and ittwo years later, like I didn't
(06:15):
become a fan till after Lennon'sdeath, but I was caught up in
the same way that people werebefore, you know, and I'm like,
why is that? What happened? Whyam I caught up in this? You
know? So
Chuck Shute (06:26):
part of it's too I think it's emotion, right? All
those Houdini and Keaton andMarx Brothers Beatles, it all
like it brings some sort ofemotion to the surface for
people. There's
Larry Wilmore (06:37):
something, yeah, I think it's different in each
case, you know, I think the MarxBrothers, the Marx Brothers
certainly weren't as big as theBeatles, even though the Beatles
were compared to the MarxBrothers, ironically, you know.
So there was some connectionthere. But, you know, the Marx
Brothers hit at a time when thecountry was probably at its
lowest in terms of how it feltabout itself, you know, the
(06:58):
Great Depression and all thatstuff. But there was a new
phenomena in movies calledtalkies, talkies, you know,
because before that, it was allsilent, and so we're used to
physical comedy, you know, likewe go back to Keaton and
chaplain and that kind of stuff,almost like what cartoons kind
of took over that realm fromthose movies, a little bit. But
(07:19):
people weren't used to the typeof humor the Marx Brothers
brought that was this anarchy,kind of against institutions and
that type of thing. It kind ofbroke down form grouch of dared
to say the things. And thatenergy is still there. It's
still in the Marx Brothersfilms. You know, when they had
the revival in the early 70s, itwas huge with showing animal
(07:42):
crackers on the big screen asraw movie as that is the
counterculture at the time,related to the Marx Brothers.
You know, whereas you could haveshowed the Three Stooges, who
wouldn't have had that reaction,or any other group, and I, and
I'm like, why are the MarxBrothers resonating for so long?
Like, what is this thing grouchis doing that is resonant over
(08:02):
such a long period of time, youknow, that still has resonance.
You could show the revival ofthose early movies right now,
and it would still get biglaughs. You know, people would
still laugh at them. I don'tunderstand that, you know, it's
just interesting to me.
Chuck Shute (08:17):
Oh, yeah, no. All that stuff is so fascinating
because I interview so manypeople, and you see so much
talent, and especially withmusicians, you see people that
are so musically talented, butfor some whatever reason, they
never made it. They never theirstuff, never resonated with
people. They never had that hitsong. And yeah, yeah,
Larry Wilmore (08:34):
so talent is not the thing, because you're right.
So many people are telling meit's the zeitgeist. You have to
line up, be lucky enough to lineup with the Zeitgeist and just
have what The Zeitgeist needs atthat time, you know,
Chuck Shute (08:47):
yeah. Do you think, as part of a member of The Daily
Show, the original Daily Show?
Do you think part of thatsuccess was the timing, because
John Stuart, and then you hadBush as the president, and like,
his reactions to everything Bushwould say. I mean, he didn't
even really have to write ajoke. He'd just show a clip of
Bush, and then you'd show JonStewart face and cracking up.
It's
Larry Wilmore (09:10):
such a great example too, because nobody
cared about the daily showbefore then, you know, yeah. And
I always say the Daily Show wasmore of a parody show at first.
It was kind of a parody of thenews, you know, and John slowly
turned it into a satire of thenews. So where the daily, the
initial Daily Show, focused onthe form of news shows and made
(09:32):
fun of it, where John focused onthe content of new shows, you
know, and commented on that. Andhe did it at the right time,
because nobody, you know, forthe Smothers Brothers did that
in the 60s, but people stoppedcaring about that after a while.
So nobody cared about whatcomedians had to say, content
wise, for a long time. You know,in terms of the way they cared
(09:56):
about the Smothers Brothers atthat time, right? So when John
did it, it stuck. It startedfresh again. And the whole
zeitgeist of it all is thecontroversy of the 2000
election, where people thought,you know, Bucha wasn't a valid
president, and all this stuff,he had all this anger from
people who was invalidated, andnow this war starts. So here
comes Jon Stewart mocking thesethings that you know is supposed
(10:18):
to be given to us as truth thatwe're supposed to accept. And
like both Democrats andRepublicans, voted for this war.
Jon Stewart is against it. Whothe fuck does he think he is?
You know, so he became an avatarfor all that energy that felt
like they weren't being heard.
Remember, there's no socialmedia at that time. There's no
real way for people to be partof the conversation, really,
(10:40):
unless legacy media was willingto give them a voice. But legacy
media is like, sorry, you know,yeah, it's
Chuck Shute (10:48):
interesting, because I remember when I was a
kid, Jon Stewart was on MTV, andhe had a show, and it was really
good, and I really liked it. Andthen so CBS, I think, picked him
up and they and but then hisshow bombed on CBS for whatever
reason, and then he went to TheDaily Show. And then, you know,
he's it, he became, like thebest talk show host at the time,
I think,
Larry Wilmore (11:08):
yeah, so that's kind of interesting, too. So he
definitely lined up with thezeitgeist for sure. You know,
created a whole new kind ofavenue for comedians to critique
in their comedy, I guess, which,you know, of course, existed
before, but you know, peoplecared about it differently. I
guess you could say,
Chuck Shute (11:27):
yeah, no, it's and then I feel like what happened
was, then there's all thesecopycat shows, and all these
people were trying to do thedaily show, and it just, it
never, a lot of those, it justnever resonated with me. I was
like, No, Jon Stewart is, like,that's he's just being himself.
I don't feel like he was tryingto play a character. He was just
reacting to stuff naturally, andthat's what was made it so
Larry Wilmore (11:49):
funny. No, you're right. That is John's
personality. In fact, it's evenhard for John to recreate that
himself on The Daily Show afterleaving, coming back,
Chuck Shute (11:57):
right? Yeah, because now he's back as like,
once a week, or something likethat, I think, but it's
Larry Wilmore (12:01):
still not quite what it was. Yeah, because it
can't be, you know, because it'sat that time and everything, you
know, it's like with the Beatlesput out a new song now,
basically, it's just not thesame as, hey, June. It just
because it can't be. It's notthe right, it's not the same
time. You know, the zeitgeisthas moved on and chosen other
people, but you still have thatspecial place, but it's the time
(12:25):
just isn't right.
Chuck Shute (12:26):
Yeah, who do you what do you think are the
successful people now that youfind so fascinating in 2025
Larry Wilmore (12:33):
that's a good question. It's funny, and I've
never been asked this type ofquestion. You know, sometimes
it's kind of hard to know, butif we just look at who are the
biggest people, we can start toask the question, Does their
success, you know, go beyond ourunderstanding of it, maybe. Or
go beyond mere like, popularity?
Is there something else goingon? I guess the two biggest
(12:57):
examples, maybe Taylor Swift andBeyonce from different points of
view, you know. So we may lookback and go, what was going on
with it, and they both have hadpretty good runs, you know,
pretty good runs at being at thetop and having those kind of
audiences. So those might be twoexamples where we might look
back or something and thinkabout, what, what is it about
that? Why are they? Why are theyheld up there? They're
(13:19):
untouchables, both of them, youknow, and have been that way for
a while. Yeah, it's interesting.
Chuck Shute (13:25):
Yeah, because I when I think there's so much
more poppy and but then again,maybe the Beatles, they started
out that way too. So maybeTaylor Swift and Beyonce will
have that Sergeant Pepper'salbum type of thing
Larry Wilmore (13:38):
or not, you know, because different times wanting
different things, you know, wemay be in the time where the
zeitgeist just wants us to be ina relationship with people for a
while, you know, where theBeatles were not just changed
music, but they changed theirmusic, you know, but that's what
they did at the time. So it wastheir evolution itself which
(13:59):
kind of mirrored the culturalrevolution that was happening,
so that's where it lined up. Ifthey had just stayed as she
loves you, yeah, yeah, yeah, andnot really change that style,
they would have been gone in acouple of years, because it was
changing so fast. But they endedup leading the culture by doing
Sergeant Pepper or revolver andthose type of things. Sergeant
Pepper was way ahead of theculture at that time. And then
(14:20):
the culture had to catch up tothe Beatles, you know. So I
don't know if you could say thatabout nothing in Taylor Swift
and Beyonce. I don't know ifthey're leading the culture in
that same way, you know, or bytheir I don't know if their
content has the same effect. Ithink their fame is similar. I'm
not sure if the content is Icould be wrong on that, but,
yeah,
Chuck Shute (14:41):
what do you think about Kanye? Because, like, he
is seems to be going off thedeep end a little bit lately. I
feel like he started out withsome very brilliant music, and
then he's just gotten so bizarrenow that, I mean, I honestly
like worry about him, like hismental health.
Larry Wilmore (14:58):
I'm not worried about him because I. Don't care
about him that much, you know,so to a worry means that I would
still care about him, you know,I think, you know, he was such a
narcissist, you know, that it, Ikind of think it kind of
overtook his good instincts andturned them into bad instincts.
It seemed like, over time,brilliant artists, though, no
(15:20):
doubt about that. You know, hishis early stuffs is still good
music. You can still put it onlate registration. College
Dropout still sounds it doesn'tsound dated, really, you know,
which is, how do you do that?
It's pretty good feat, you know.
But you know, the stuff he'sputting out now, it's a, it's a
reaction to something that noone asked him to react to.
(15:46):
That's what it seems like. Okay,okay. Well, then down with the
Jews. Then, like, what do youwhat exactly you're reacting to?
Because I don't think we askedfor this reaction. You know, no
one's asking you to fight theJews. Kanye, you know you're
doing you've just made that, youmade that fight up in your head,
you know? So who knows? It's theopposite of the Zeitgeist thing.
(16:08):
I think it's in an upside downway, you know?
Chuck Shute (16:11):
Yeah, well, so with your own career, do you feel
like you because you've done somany amazing things, and you've
acted, you've done comedy,you've done, you know, The Daily
Show stuff, then you do theproducing and the writing. Do
you feel like you're justconstantly reinventing yourself?
Larry Wilmore (16:25):
Um, I don't know if I'm reinventing but I always
try to evolve and try to keepgoing forward. I don't like to
stay in the past some things. Solike, for instance, let's so a
show doesn't go or somethinglike that. I don't keep trying
to do to do it. I really I moveon so fast and just try to go to
the next thing and think ofsomething else. And I keep
(16:45):
trying to refresh what I careabout, what's interesting, what
what do I want to dramatize,what I want to talk about, you
know? So it's always a movingtarget for me. Whereas some
people, they'll have an ideathat they're working on for 20
years, you know, bring it to thescreen. And I give those people
a lot of credit. You know, it'sgreat. You know, some ideas I've
had for a long time, and ittakes a while for them to go
but, but I also move on quickly,too, because I want to make sure
(17:11):
that I the thing I'm doing. Ihave a point of view on I have a
passion, and there's a reasonwhy I wanted up there more so
than just the flattery, thatit's something that I thought of
that's really not good enough.
There's got to be somethingelse, you know. Yeah,
Chuck Shute (17:24):
how do you continually get all these, all
this work? I mean, just so manyshows that you've worked on, is
it just once you've kind ofgotten that in, then you made
these connections? And becausesome people, like, teeter out
after one or two things, andthen that's the end of their
career. Well,
Larry Wilmore (17:39):
I think, I mean, I appreciate the comment, but I
think when you look at it overtime, it looks like, man,
there's so much stuff, butreally, in the scheme of things,
it really isn't a lot of things.
There's just a lot of variedthings, you know? So I have
varied interests, and so Ifigured out that there's no
reason to not explore the variedinterest that I have just figure
(18:02):
out the the lane that I have toput it in at a certain time in
order to do it, you know. So Istarted off as a pretty much a
stand up and an actor, and whenI started writing for TV, it was
really as a way to creatematerial for myself, because I
just felt like I was differentin Hollywood, just wouldn't find
me. So I did it purposefully,this other lane, and then the
(18:24):
performing I just didoccasionally, and then I
realized that I really liked thewriting, producing, got good at
it. And so the more I did it,the more I just thought of my
careers. How can I do thedifferent things that I'm
interested in, and what lanescan I put them in? I have to
make time for this and that. Soeverything kind of happened as a
result of wanting to dodifferent things, and not just
(18:46):
one thing, you know, andoccasionally something lines up
with that. But then there may bea period of time where it
doesn't, but I'm doing theseother things. So when you look
at it together, it looks likeall of that happened at once,
but it really didn't, you know,separation in it. So is
Chuck Shute (19:04):
it is a lot of you knocking down doors, like within
living color. I don't that was,maybe you consider that maybe
one of your first big writingbreaks, absolutely, did they?
Did they offer you the job fromyour comedy? Or did you, like,
bug them and say, Hey, give me ashot. Or, how did that work?
Larry Wilmore (19:18):
Yeah. So that was me doing my due diligence and
making a change in my career atthat time, because I was mainly
a performer, and that's when Ifirst had the thought, I don't
think Holly was going to findwhat I'm doing. I got to figure
out. I got to create a space formyself. So I decided to try to
get a job writing andtelevision. The first job I had
was at Rick D's into the night.
It was this late night show. Idon't know. He was a DJ, yeah,
(19:40):
you know, Rick D's is a, heactually had a song called, uh,
Disco Duck. Disco
Chuck Shute (19:46):
Duck. Yeah, that's Rick D's in the weekly top 40.
Yeah, right.
Larry Wilmore (19:50):
He was the, the bland case of, case of, I guess
he's
Chuck Shute (19:56):
brilliant. Casey case is pretty bland too, isn't
Larry Wilmore (19:58):
it? The Casey. He said, at least he had the voice
always coming in it. Number one,you always talk like that, but
so when I got on in color, thatwas me. I reached out to them
for sure, you know, because Iwanted to give, wanted to keep
getting jobs in television. So Iimpressed them enough that they
(20:18):
hired me. But that wasintentional on my part, to get
into that world, you know, andgo down that road. So it's time
that that happened. Veryintentional. When I started
creating shows, you know, cocreated the PJs and then created
the Birmingham act show, myfirst two big ones, that was
intentional. I didn't want tojust be a staff writer on
(20:39):
someone else's show. I knew inorder for me to survive in
Hollywood, I had to startcreating stuff. You know, my
joke when I was in the PJs, Isaid, if I had not created the
PJs, I never would have beenhired on it. Because, just my
opinion, honestly, I have tocreate shows in order for me to
be hired on these shows. Yeah,
Chuck Shute (20:57):
so how did you reach out to Eddie Murphy? Or
did he reach out to you? Or theydon't.
Larry Wilmore (21:02):
At that time, Eddie was working with Brian
Grazer and Ron Howard. They hadjust done Apollo 13, and Eddie
was doing nutty professor. Andthey had were producing with
Eddie. And Eddie had looked atApollo 13, and he was
remembering this show called theThunderbirds that had these
puppets in it and everything.
And he had top brands, so it'dbe fun to do a show like with
(21:23):
puppets or something, you know,puppets in the projects, or
something like that. Anyone dosomething different. And then
one of the executives thatimagine had heard this, and I
had a deal at Disney at thetime. It was like my first deal,
trying to create a show. And shehad called and said, Hey, Larry
Eddie Murphy, wants to do thisanimated show, you'd be
interested. And first at that,she meant, like, a Saturday
morning cartoon, like, I don'twant to do some animated show.
(21:44):
Like, what are you talkingabout? And then the more she
talked about that, oh, thatsounds interesting. So then I
took the meeting with Eddie, andreally kind of impressed him in
the meeting, made him laugh, andthat kind of stuff. And so
that's how I ended up doing andcalled in a buddy of mine to
help me do it. That's really howit happened. Happened that
simple that somebody who I had ameeting with a couple of times
had remembered me and thoughtI'd be the best person to kind
(22:07):
of fulfill that, because it wasjust a whim of Eddie's saying
puppets in the project. Yeah,that sounds funny. That's how
things happen sometimes, youknow. But it took me and Steve
Tompkins, who did it, to takethat and create a world for it
and start developing with it.
And the Will Vinton company wasattached. They did the
(22:27):
California Raisins and that sortof thing to kind of do. We
figured out doing a stop motion,because that's what really, the
type of feel Eddie wanted to dowould make it really a different
thing on TV that just wasn'tthere. So that's what that's
kind of how that kind of form.
So once
Chuck Shute (22:45):
you're kind of in that world, and then you just
kept kind of parlayingeverything. But
Larry Wilmore (22:50):
I've always been intentional about it. It doesn't
mean things are going to happen,but I've always been
intentional. So I've alwayssought that type of thing, or
those type of interactions orcollaborations and trying to
find something new to do andthat kind of stuff. It doesn't
always work out. Though there's,there could be years where
that's not going on, but youkeep busy doing other things,
(23:11):
and then sometimes it can lineup, you know, I've been fired
from things, you know, I'vecertainly had many lows in it.
But you know, I've had, I'vebeen fortunate. You know, I've
had a lot of highs in it, too.
So how do
Chuck Shute (23:23):
you get through those lows? Like, do you ever
think of giving up or quittingor many
Larry Wilmore (23:28):
times, it's not easy. I got when I did the bring
him back show, I won every awardto possibly win, including an
Emmy for writing. You know,which I was the first, you know,
black writer to win that EmmyAward for writing. You know,
half hour shows, very historic.
We want to, want to Humanitas, aPeabody Award. We got a TV
Critics Award, and Fox fired me.
They just never, never quiteunderstood what I was doing, you
(23:52):
know. And I would have battleswith them all the time, you
know. And, and it was real downfor me. I didn't know. I
thought, you know, can I workagain after something like this?
But I have to tell you, so manywriters in the industry reached
out to me and gave me COVID.
Said, Larry, your show isbrilliant, you know, stick in
there. I'll never forget, uh,James L Brooks, you know, who
(24:14):
was almost fired from The MaryTyler Moore Show when he did the
pilot. And the network hated itand everything, you know, and
they almost fired them, and atthe last minute, Mary tell more,
kind of saved their jobs. And ofcourse, we all know what
happened. Became this huge hit,but they didn't like it at
first. That the pilot they hatedwhile that they were watching,
you know, just didn't understandit. They thought it was not
(24:34):
good. And it's it. This is allin the DVDs of it. He tells the
story, and for him to reach outand tell me to hang in there.
Steven Bucha, who had createdHill Street Blues and all that
was another writer who reachedout to me so many so it was the
encouragement I got from mypeers that gave me kind of
lifted me up at that time. And Iknow I said it became a badge of
(24:54):
honor. You know that those.
People who supposedly knowbetter, and a lot of them aren't
even in the business anymore, bythe way, and I'm still going,
you know, yeah, that's crazy,because then, like,
Chuck Shute (25:07):
your net was your next job the office, or that
was, like, a couple years later,right? Which is, like,
Larry Wilmore (25:11):
that's pretty much, pretty much, right, after
I had gone to NBC, I did anoverall deal there, and I ran,
Whoopi Goldberg had a show inNew York that I ran for a bit.
She was like in a hotel, and itwas a little rocky. So I was
developing a pilot at the time,and after I did my pilot, the
pilot didn't end up going, butthe pilot didn't end up going,
(25:35):
but at that time, they wereabout to do the office, and so I
was at NBC, and I knew GregDaniels already. He when He was
doing king of the hill, I wasdoing the PJs. We were kind of
both in an animation category,and I would see him at the Emmys
and that kind of stuff. And kindof got to know him. And so I
kind of went in the office as,really a consulting producer. I
was still trying to create showsand stuff. See, in those days,
(25:57):
like a lot of the shows I cameup with didn't quite go, but I
was doing the office, so that'swhat I mean. So you're doing
these things that are not going,not going, but then this other
thing you're on, you know, andyou're a part of. So I was there
for the first three seasons ofthe office. In the beginning,
nobody thought it was going todo anything, you know. So it was
real interesting to be on thattrain. Yeah, it was fun.
Chuck Shute (26:17):
That's crazy. You still get paid for the stuff
that doesn't make it, though,right? Like, if you make a while
you're doing
Larry Wilmore (26:21):
it, sure, but you're also, like, it's
frustrating, you know, because,of course, you believe it and
everything, but sometimes it'lllead to to other things. You
know, one of the pilots that Iwrote was one of my favorites at
the time. It didn't end up goingbut different execs read it over
the years, and it opened up somedoors for me. It was, it was
(26:42):
called Fat Man, skinny wife. Wasthe title of it. It's a great
title. Yeah, I love the title.
And it was my take on on thesitcom trope. You know, was
always a Batman, skinny life,but it was a sitcom, and it was
really about kind of the BernieMac show, and I was the
showrunner and all that. Andthen it was all my jokes about
network execs, everything inthere was in it, you know, and
(27:04):
working with this big star, itwas really funny and and the
network really did like it a lottoo, you know. But at the time,
here's what I was up against.
The other show that was beingdeveloped at NBC at that time
was a little thing called 30rock. And then the other and a
drama they were producing waslive on the Sunset Strip. The
thing that what's his name,David from West Wing, that was
(27:26):
kind of his behind the sceneslook at Saturday Night Live. So
here I had another behind thescenes look at a show. So mine
was a commercial one that didn'tgo so I ended up going over to
Fox. They didn't do it, but theyliked it a lot, but that was a
disappointment. But for years, Iwas able to use that as a sample
(27:46):
that people read, oh, this ishilarious, you know. And so
sometimes the thing that doesn'tgo can be used as something, you
know, of an example ofsomething, wow, that's
Chuck Shute (27:56):
really cool. Well, yeah, I know you got to get out
of here in a couple of minutes.
But, uh, yeah, it's, you have tocome back because you have
someone. I was gonna bring upyour book. It was so good. The
Oh yeah, that was, I waslaughing so hard, so that I'm
kind of like, wait, is hekidding, or Is he serious? But I
was laughing. It was like, theblack people and UFOs. I thought
that was hilarious. And, yeah,it was great stuff. And about
Larry Wilmore (28:18):
the book, which came now it seems so long ago.
The original concept of it waskind of half in theirs, but it,
there's remnants of it. But theoriginal concept was that
there's, I have, this fictionalLarry Wilmore, and that me, the
real Larry Wilmore had collectedhis black thoughts over the
years and kind of put all theseblack thoughts in a book, you
(28:42):
know, and and I did that as acourtesy to the audience, you
know, not knowing, not knowingquite what happened to this
fictional Larry when I did quitepull that off. I don't, you
know, it went away somewhere,but as you read it, you can see
remnants of that idea in there,and that's what that collection
is supposed to represent. Youknow, the time he had a radio
show, you know, the time hewrote this, you know, the time
(29:03):
he did an essay, you know,
Chuck Shute (29:05):
yeah, no, that was great stuff. What anything else
you have to promote right now?
That's, I mean, besides, youhave your own podcast, and what
else back in the air is
Larry Wilmore (29:15):
my podcast. I pop up on TV here and there. There's
a show I'm producing, a Hulucalled reasonable down to
produce with Kerry Washington,we're doing the third season.
It's a fun it's, it's not quitewhat people would expect in my
lane, necessarily, because it'skind of that soapy thriller,
that type of thing, you know.
But it's really a lot of fun.
But I'm always working, tryingto bring something to the
(29:36):
screen, you know. And you know,something, there's always
something different I do. A lotof people didn't know I'm also
an amateur magician, and I'll domagic shows. Many times I
remember the Magic Castle. Sothere's a lot of lanes that you
know like to occupy. So thereyou go. Yeah.
Chuck Shute (29:53):
Do you ever you still tour? Do you do shows? Or
is it just more in the LA area?
Or I did
Larry Wilmore (29:57):
last fall, I did a short tour where I come by.
Time, kind of my politicalobservations with the magic
show, trying to get people tosomething different. It was so
much fun. I hadn't really beenout on the road in a while, so
it was great seeing fans again,you know. And just, I would love
to take the podcast, though, onthe road again. I haven't done
that in a while, where I've doneit on the road, because I love
(30:18):
that kind of interaction too.
Especially I love havingconversations like, I'm sure you
love it too, you know, just it'sso much fun talking to people,
because you sometimes you neverknow where the conversations are
going to go. You know, eventhough you may have a structure
for breaking the structure is somuch fun when you have a really
interesting guess. You know,absolutely, I love doing that,
so I may figure out a way to dosome more of that.
Chuck Shute (30:40):
Okay, sounds good.
Well, thank you so much fordoing this, and I'll get this
out soon. It was
Larry Wilmore (30:44):
my pleasure. Nice being nice to meet you. All
right. All right. Take care,from
THEME SONG (30:49):
the rockers to the wise men. You
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