Are Free-Range Priests the Future? with Cathie Caimano | Episode 240

 I speak with Cathie Caimano, an Episcopal priest who discusses her journey and the concept of "free-range ministry" as a solution for small congregations. She advocates for flexible, part-time ministry models that empower lay leadership and foster community engagement. 

Suggested Reading and Listening:

Free Range Priest website

Related Episodes:

Luther Seminary and the Future of Mainline Protestantism with Rob Myallis | Episode 239

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Episode Transcript

(00:01):
So, maybe the future of mainline Protestantism lies in allowing our clergy to roam free.
That's coming up.

(00:38):
Hello and welcome to Church in Maine, a podcast for people interested in the intersectionof faith, politics, and culture.
I'm Dennis Sanders, your host.
Now, the prior episode that I had with Rob Myalis, a Lutheran pastor, was based on a blogpost that he wrote on his blog about how hard it is for congregations, especially

(00:58):
congregations in his area, to find pastors.
And this is all in some ways a sign of how our culture is changing.
how that is affecting the church, and how the church isn't ready for these changes.
One of the things that Rob has mused is that it might be time for churches to considerraising their own leaders instead of hoping that the denomination would send them a

(01:24):
pastor.
The day when a pastor could find a full-time job at any local congregation is fastdisappearing.
Younger generations, and by this I mean younger generation X and younger, support theirchurches less financially than older generations used to.

(01:45):
And that means that it's becoming more difficult to financially support a pastor at leastfull time.
And that means that congregations have to look at other models.
Now some are considering an option of the option of bivocational ministry.

(02:05):
which of course is where a pastor works in the church, has a calling in the church, butalso works outside of the church in another job.
This of course is one that I am familiar with since I'm a bi-vocational pastor.
uh Lutheran and Methodist churches have long used um a method called, uh where theybasically will call a pastor to two, three, or four point parishes, which means

(02:34):
that a number of churches and usually in rural areas will share a pastor.
So those are some options, but today I want to talk about another option that's out there.
I'm talking with an Episcopal priest about a new option for having a pastor having in yourcongregation free range ministry.

(02:56):
My guest today is Kathy Caimano.
Caimano is a priest in North Carolina.
where she works with a number of small Episcopal parishes.
Now, for her, being a free-range priest is something that has worked for her.
uh It is in many ways a new form of ministry, and it might be an answer for smallcongregations that are looking for a pastor.

(03:26):
And it might also be an option
for pastors that want to serve and maybe want to serve in innovative ways.
Kathy has been doing this for about 10 years, so we're gonna, in this episode, talk aboutwhat led her to this decision.
What does it mean to be a free-range priest?
And how can this be a new model?

(03:48):
So I hope that you will join me in this enlightening conversation about the future ofministry with Father Kathy Caimano.

(04:16):
So Catherine, thank you for taking the time to chat this morning.
I think I wanted to start out by uh finding out a little bit more about your faithbackground, kind of what was your journey uh to becoming a priest and also your journey as
a Christian.
Thank you very much for asking that question.
And I'm actually going to start when I'm six years old.

(04:38):
I promise it won't take really long.
I was a little kid, I was raised Catholic, Catholic family, Italian Catholic.
When I was a little kid, I would go outside during the day, back in the day when we couldrun around and play on our own.
And I would talk to God.
And God would talk back to me, like in full sentences.
Like I never knew anything but being able to have conversations with God.

(04:59):
And I never talked about it.
Like I never
I didn't know that everybody didn't have that same experience, but it always seemed as ifbetween me and God.
um People always ask what God said.
When I was a little kid, God said to me, this is not your real life.
Just you wait.
Just wait and see what I have in store for you.

(05:21):
He was just basically saying, you're just getting going.
You're only six, right?
But raised Roman Catholic, uh family went to church every Sunday, but I still wouldn'tconsider myself as particularly religious.
But, and, I ended up going to Georgetown University in Washington DC, which is run by theJesuit Order of the Priesthood.

(05:44):
I went to Georgetown because I wanted to study languages.
I started as a French major, but I eventually became a linguistics major, which is alsoimportant to my faith journey.
But while I was there, I had a student job at the campus ministry office.
And I'm a singer.
So I started singing in the choir at the church.

(06:06):
So I had to sing every Sunday night.
And also because it's Jesuit school, we had priests that lived with us in our dorms.
Like every dorm, every floor had a priest who had a room there.
So it was fabulous.
This idea of engaging my faith.
We would have
communion on Saturday nights, like in the lounge, like in our jammies, you know, it was sofabulous.

(06:32):
And being part of the campus ministry office, I was part of all the stuff going on withall the different religions.
And I sang in the choir and I got really involved in the retreat program.
And I was studying linguistics.
So linguistics is the study of language.
And the more that I studied how we acquire languages or how languages came to be, the moreI realized
language is a gift from God.

(06:53):
It is how we manifest our being made in the image of God.
Human language is different than all other forms of communication.
And there's a reason I think that we call Jesus the Word of God.
And so all of that culminated with my senior year in college, which was now 36 years ago.

(07:14):
So I'm old.
ah
I did the Ignatian exercises at Georgetown, which is a five-day silent retreat.
And I never thought I could be quiet for five days, but I loved it so much.
And on that last day, we celebrated the Eucharist and everybody laughed and I stayed.
And it'll always make me cry, I'm sorry.

(07:36):
um I heard Jesus say, do this in remembrance of me.
And I knew that I was called to be a priest.
as a 22 year old Roman Catholic girl.
And also there's this experience that I had, and this is about my experience with God andwith Jesus.

(07:57):
I knew everything.
Like in one iota of one second, I suddenly knew everything.
It was like the transfiguration, like everything opened.
I mean, and it was good.
It was good.
I knew everything.
It was good.
mean, just, there it was, right?

(08:19):
And then it went on with my life and I thought, well, that's funny.
God could not call me to be a priest because I can't be a priest because I'm a girl.
And on with my life.
I decided to become a psychologist because it sort of seems similar in some ways it is.
And I was doing research to get into graduate school and ended up moving to Durham, NorthCarolina.
I'm from upstate New York.

(08:40):
And
I moved to Durham, North Carolina, and I accidentally walked into an Episcopal church oneday.
was really mourning the fact that I could no longer find the kind of Christian communitythat I had at college.
uh Regular Roman Catholic churches didn't feel like having Eucharist in your jammies withthe priest.
uh So I accidentally walked into an Episcopal church and it just struck me that it feltthat same feeling of a community of people that were engaged in the practice of the faith

(09:09):
and in the community.
surrounding those practices.
And I just, that was it.
I just became an Episcopalian almost immediately.
And then of course, every door in the universe opened to my ordination.
And I honestly had put that away and thought I wasn't going to be ordained.
And then off I went, there I went to seminary in 1996.
was ordained.

(09:29):
I went to seminary in New York City, general seminary back in the day.
And then I was ordained a priest in 2000, January of 2000.
I served a church in
New York before I came back to North Carolina, served a church there.
um Then I moved to Kansas, Wichita, Kansas, where I had a church there, came back to NorthCarolina and worked for the then Bishop of North Carolina who a lot of people have heard

(09:55):
of.
His name is Bishop Michael Curry, who later became the head of the entire EpiscopalChurch.
My dear friend and mentor and totally was the best experience of my life serving when hewas Bishop.
And when he got elected to be the presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Church,
lots of things happen that we'll probably talk about here, but I decided that it was timeto start my own ministry.

(10:17):
And I called it Free Range Priest because it was this idea of finding the way back to allthose formational experiences that I had with the Episcopal Church, the Catholic Church,
and with God in the midst of an institutional system that seemed even then to becollapsing and in some ways squelching.

(10:38):
the very things that are at the core of what it is.
And so that was January 1st, 2016.
So it's now almost a decade.
I'm in my 10th year of doing this and that itself has been a journey.
um so here I am.
Then I met you on Substack and now I'm here.
That's my basic journey.

(10:59):
So I'm kind of curious, what led you to becoming a free-range priest?
And I think in that question is also even just how would you define that?
Because you talked about serving in New York and then in Kansas.
I'm assuming those are probably full-time positions.

(11:20):
what led you to that kind of, to this type of a ministry that you're now in?
Thank you for that.
So I never wanted to be a rector, like the head of a church, but it felt like there was acareer track, if you will, and I was on it, whether I liked it or not.
And so I had started off as a curate, a baby priest in a large congregation in New YorkCity.

(11:43):
Then I moved back to North Carolina.
I actually went back to the very church that sent me and I became the associate.
So was the second in command at a large, at the same church that I walked into all thoseyears ago.
And that was
both of those are really formative experiences and really great.
I could not see, then at a certain point, they just kind of push you out of the nest.
Like the next thing you have to do is become a rector.

(12:04):
I never wanted to.
When I went to Kansas, it was a really difficult time.
was, I would say, was the worst rector ever.
And there were two reasons for that.
And one was,
I thought I knew everything.
That is just an absolute truth that I have to say.
I thought I'm going to whip these people into shape, right?
And there were some problems there and I just thought, well, I know all this stuff.

(12:26):
I'm going to tell them how it's going to be.
And you can probably imagine that that was not received well.
And it caused a lot of tension and chaos and, know, not that it was all about me, but Iown that.
But the other thing was I really hated the administrative part of it.
Like I really hated the fact that what I became was basically the CEO of a smallnonprofit.

(12:48):
and that my days were consumed with worries and stresses about upholding the structure,the building, the organization, the budget, and all that kind of stuff.
And that it was killing my spiritual life, that I didn't feel like a priest anymore, and Ihated it.
Then when I worked for the bishop, I was a canon.
I was called a regional canon.
Canon is just a job title for someone who works for the bishop.

(13:11):
But I had a territory of...
the Eastern part of our diocese, East Carolina is a separate diocese, but in NorthCarolina, there's the Eastern part of our diocese, 60 congregations, most of them very
small.
so this was in 2011 to 2015 was the time that I served there.
um so it was my job to do congregational development and clergy support for 60congregations and their attended clergy.

(13:38):
And this is where I learned the truth, right?
That like even then, you know, like,
churches are struggling.
I had never actually been in a small church before.
I'd never experienced a small church.
And I realized that every single small church and also larger churches were strugglingwith the same thing, right?
They could not afford clergy.

(13:59):
ah In the one region that I worked in, there were four clergy who even lived there.
they were like, this was part of that territory.
were like, whatever, 30 congregations and four clergy who even lived in that area.
I would frequently drive two hours to go to a small church from my home and then two hoursback in a single day.
But they also just like lack of connection, lack of support, uh lack of membership, lackof money.

(14:24):
They just couldn't kind of, were not really supported and couldn't figure out how tosupport themselves to continue ministry the way that they understood it as Episcopal
churches.
And the same thing was happening to other congregations too.
All this stress and pressure from the institutional life of the church that was, you know,and it was the same thing everywhere, every single thing.

(14:47):
And clergy were feeling the same sort of stress that I had felt too when I was there.
So I was haunted by this question or this vision that there has to be a better way, right?
There just has to be a better way to reimagine how we are in Christian community, evenwithin denominations.
and how we are clergy serving with congregations that isn't the same old model that hasbeen collapsing for the last several decades.

(15:13):
That like, there's one clergy person who gets paid full time and their job is to take careof this one discrete group of people that basically stays the same size.
It doesn't get bigger or smaller.
It's gradually getting smaller.
Then all those people, it's their job to come up with the money to pay for all this stuff.
And then there's a set of programs and there's a set of meetings, there's a budget and go.

(15:33):
that this isn't working anymore.
It's just not working anymore.
And fundamentally, it's not helping us develop our lives as Christians and disciples andto share the faith.
so I became a free-range priest.
had no idea what that meant.
Bishop Curry actually coined, Bishop Curry and my husband coined that phrase, free-rangepriest.

(15:54):
I have, I will say trademarked it.
So I actually have it on my wall.
actually, it is, uh so you do have to I have a t-shirt.
uh
And you do have to pay me royalties if you call yourself a free range freeze.
And so I would say that what I have done over the last decade has basically beenping-ponging between trying to help the institution reimagine itself, clergy and

(16:22):
congregations and diocese, and saying like, hey, you could do this, hey, you could dothis, hey, you could do this.
And then finding new ways to serve myself.
Right?
so that's basically like, so basically I see myself as in this lane alongside theinstitutional church, right?
I still love, mean, I still am madly in love with the Episcopal church despite the factthat it frustrates me on a daily basis.

(16:46):
And I love the, I love small churches.
I love the institutional church and I see it nose-diving, right?
So I keep like being over in this lane saying like, hey, you could do these things to kindof free yourself from some of this stuff if you really reimagine things.
And then, hey,
why don't I try and work with people who are trying to actually do these things, right?

(17:08):
Maybe outside the church, maybe alongside the church, maybe within the church.
So that's kind of been what I've done for the last decade.
And also, frankly, Free Range Priest is a business.
And so uh presenting myself as a model of what ministry could look like, Free Range PriestLLC, and I contract with

(17:28):
searches, I serve a congregation of about 35 people.
coach, I consult, I write, you know, I develop programs, that sort of thing.
um And then I get paid as Free Range Priest, m LLC.
I have worked it out with the pension fund.
I'm still in the pension fund.
um The bishop recognizes my ministry and the Free Range Priest LLC, which is me, pays mypension.

(17:52):
And so I've worked all of that out.
So sort of figuring out like
offering myself as a model of what ministry could look like.
And also, uh you mentioned yourself that you're bivocational and I always say, that's mytrigger word.
uh And I mean, what I mean by that is, if people are truly bivocational, in other words,they're called, they truly are called, as I think you said you were, to serve in the

(18:21):
secular world and also serve ministry at the same time.
Hallelujah.
I think that that's awesome.
If we call somebody bivocational because what we really mean is you're not going to getpaid for ministry, then I've got a problem with that.
I don't think people should be forced to take secular work in order to make a living as aminister.
And so part of what I do is, I mean, basically I'm an entrepreneurial minister, I'm a gigworker, and I create a ministry, I have created a ministry on my own that supports me

(18:49):
financially and allows me to serve my ministry in multiple ways.
And
I also approach the idea of serving with a congregation in a very different way than thestandard model, and I also teach that to other people.
not in a nutshell, reimagining ministry in the digital age is my little slogan, and uhthat is what I hope I'm doing.

(19:11):
Can you kind of expand a little bit more about how you work with your congregation?
Maybe a little bit about that congregation itself, but I think you've talked about it insome articles that I've read, but how do you describe it and how is it different from, I
guess, sometimes at least in my tradition would be a settled pastor?

(19:34):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Thank you for asking that.
I love to talk about St.
Paul's Episcopal Church in Salisbury, North Carolina, because they are beyond fabulous.
And I will say that the way that I have developed, the way that I serve with them isdefinitely a mutual ministry.
We have done this together, which is one of the fabulous things about them.
So I call it sustainable part-time ministry, and I do teach this to other people.

(19:56):
em And the fundamental part of it that is different, there's two fundamental parts of itthat different.
One is
I'm not in charge.
I am not in charge, right?
Like in other words, I don't have a key to the building.
I love to say that.
And they laugh at me too because sometimes I get there before them and I have to use thebathroom.

(20:16):
I have wait till they get there to help me in and they're like, we give you a key.
I'm like, no, it's not my church.
It's their church and it's my job to bring my ministry alongside them to support theministry that they do.
So that is one of the most fundamental things.
I'm not in charge.
Um, and then they just forgot the other one, but I'll remember it in a second.

(20:37):
I serve, um, I will say another fundamental thing is I serve on task based contract.
So in other words, so this is, so do last is one of my big things that I say all the timeto clergy.
Um, I think I'm going go back to what, what it's not.
I think what happens and one of the, one of the symptoms of the institution is sort ofcollapsing and crushing us underneath it is that people clergy end up serving.

(21:03):
uh part-time ministry, to get paid part-time, but they're still essentially therefull-time, right?
that's the other thing.
Two Sundays a month.
I am not there more than two Sundays a month on principle.
You cannot serve part-time and be there more than two Sundays a month, because otherwiseyou're perceived as full-time and otherwise you are there all the time.
And so it's the doing last.
It's like pulling yourself back and basically saying, these are the things I'll do.

(21:24):
So with my congregation, have, you know, Eucharist twice a month, pastoral care, which wedefine um
spiritual practices, which I hope I get to talk about before I go, this is my new project,tech assistance, and helping them like discern their own ministry.
So that's what I do for them.

(21:45):
And we, and we spell it out and I don't do other things, right?
And so they asked me to do things along those lines and I do them for them.
And they pay me monthly.
They used to pay me hourly, but we've worked out a contract now so that they, it was justapproved by the bishop.
But it's not very much and I don't actually spend all that much time with them.
Right.

(22:05):
And so I probably spend 10 hours a month with this congregation.
Although together we built a church app, which so we are on the church chat app likepretty much 24 seven.
Like the bishop about fell out when he saw it.
But em so they know where I am and I'm definitely part of their life and they're part ofmine.

(22:25):
But I'm not on.
They live there 45 minutes away from where I live.
So I'm not I'm not there.
But
sun is a month basically.
Occasionally, if somebody's in the hospital, then they tell me when they need me to go seesomeone in the hospital.
Mostly, they go visit people in the hospital, right?
Like that's part of whole thing.
Like it really truly is their ministry.

(22:47):
And they own it and they do it.
And then I support them, train them, love them, you know, all of that stuff.
For them to be the ministers of the church.
And then, you know, they lean on me when they need to and that's how we do ministrytogether.
And it is fabulous.
And even though, well, actually I do work for another congregation too.
I do tech support.

(23:07):
I'm basically their assistant administrator.
And I do that mostly online, even though they're also in North Carolina.
So in other words, it frees me too.
I'm not working like, typically a part-time pastor is spending a ton of hours at thischurch, hardly getting paid at all.
And if they serve more than one church, they're basically a full-time pastor.

(23:28):
in more than one place, right?
And it's killing them because they're spending all their time doing that and still hardlygetting paid.
So this is not like that at all.
But if you did it the way I do it, you could easily serve four or five or sixcongregations at once and fully be present for them and make enough money to live on.

(23:48):
But I know that that's true.
How is that kind of helpful or how do you feel this could be a new way for churches to be?
I think that there are a lot of, and you talked about this earlier, churches, and I thinkit's not just individual churches, but the church, in a of ways we're stuck in a certain

(24:19):
model.
And it might be what it would say maybe is a mid-century
mid-20th century model, um which also sort of tells you how long it's been done.
But we're in a different time period.
um I think the nature of work has changed.

(24:43):
And so how do you help or get churches out of a mindset and pastors, by the way, out of acertain mindset?
into this different one.
think that we're…everyone is kind of stuck in this certain mindset, but we have no idea ofhow to envision a new one.

(25:06):
And I know, I think what you've been talking about is that your ministry is in a wayenvisioning that.
How do you feel that you're changing people's perception?
That is a very good question.
And I don't know if I am.
That's not true.
I change some people's perceptions, right?

(25:28):
And mostly, em but let me start again and say, that is a challenge, right?
Like that is a challenge.
And that is the ongoing sort of you know, task of my ministry.
I think that the best that I can do
is continue to give an example of my own ministry and support other people who are inministry similarly to me.

(25:52):
And there are a few, know, most of them I know.
But um it reminded me of a story back when I was a canon, there's another church, it wasalso called St.
Paul's, was also in rural North Carolina, although it's not my parish, um where they said,um
They had just had supply clergy, so people did just come on Sunday for a long time, it wasa small congregation.

(26:17):
And I knew they had some money.
And so I said, is it time for you guys to start looking for like a quarter time, you know,priest to come help you?
And they're like, no.
And I was like, why not?
This is back before I learned a lot of stuff.
And they said, you know what happens?
We don't have a priest and we end up doing everything and we're exhausting ourselves.

(26:38):
And then we decide we're going to get a priest.
Then a priest comes in and the priest tells us all the work and then they tell us all howit's going to be.
And half of us love that and half of us hate it.
And then part of us leave.
And then the priest gets overwhelmed and upset and then they leave.
And then we're back at square one having to do everything ourselves.
And we're just not getting anywhere.

(26:59):
know, just like this is not helpful to us.
And that person who said that changed my life because I heard her say that.
It changed my heart and my mind.
And I thought, yeah, the whole system isn't working for you, right?
And also I've come to discover that the smallest churches, and this is why I really dofeel like the smallest churches are what I call the cutting edge of the church.

(27:19):
My congregation loves them, I call them the cutting edge of the church.
But I think it's true because I think that the smallest congregations, honestly,
they're flying so far under the radar of the diocese that's also struggling or thedenominational church that's also struggling, that they're kind of forced to figure it all
out themselves anyway, right?
And so they do become the de facto uh ministers of the church, right?

(27:44):
Because they don't see a priest or other minister all that often.
And then when they do, the priest comes by or the diocese comes by or whatever that says,hey, you're doing it wrong.
By the way, you should be doing this, which is not helping.
So I feel like, especially with my own congregation, but I have worked with other smallcongregations, um there is such a relief when I say, look, you can do it all yourself.

(28:08):
And wouldn't it be nice to redefine what all is, right?
Like, aren't there some of these things you could actually put down?
And what if you just focused on how are we being formed as disciples?
How are we worshiping and praying together?
How are we serving other people in God's name?
and get back to that and kind of let go of, I mean, it's amazing how many tiny churchesI've been to that have commissions to do things.

(28:33):
like, do you all really need a commission?
Right?
Let's just talk after lunch.
It's like, you know, like, let's just pray together.
And so that kind of thing.
And so I think that people who are ready to hear it, also clergy who are just, I mean, youknow, I hear every day from clergy who are just broken, broken by this system.

(28:54):
Right?
Stuck in these patterns.
And you're right.
I was born in 1966.
And I like to say that the institutional church has been declining since the year I wasborn.
Right?
The mid 20th century model, that's what I call it, organizational model.
And you can see it.
This also helps me.
I think people's eyes light up when I say, look around, right?

(29:17):
The healthcare system has collapsed.
The criminal justice system has collapsed.
The educational system has collapsed.
all the business world, all those institutions that had a certain way of only a certainway of doing things in 1966, none of them, I mean, only a few of them still work that way

(29:38):
anymore.
And the ones that are still trying to work that way anymore, like your local DMV orwhatever, they're struggling, right?
All of those areas of our life have been re-imagined.
But, you know, in all sorts of ways, by technology, by just time and by how we reconfigureand how we understand the reconfiguring of ourselves and organizations, the church has not

(30:00):
done that.
Or it has, I will say, non-denominational churches.
em That's, think, in some ways where they're figuring that out.
But for the most part, the institutional church, you the main denominational church,
just has not seen that happen and has resisted that at every turn.
And so we just keep insisting it's 1966 in terms of our organization and administrationand how we share the faith, how we form people in the faith.

(30:29):
It's just in that institutional model, you will go to Sunday school, you will, all thatkind of stuff.
And then there's just fewer and fewer people to do that because people just aren'tinterested in that anymore.
So do people hear me?
I don't know.
I don't even keep talking.
Ha ha!
So, I mean, what do you think can bring about that change?

(30:54):
I mean, is it just something that happens, it's going to have to have the entire systemcollapse?
Someone would say it's already collapsed.
be completely true to yourself and you.
I don't think it's going to change.
think, I mean, the church and we see it, non-denominational churches are growing,liturgical, more conservative liturgical churches like the Roman Catholic.

(31:15):
I'm just reading an article right now.
was reading it uh as I was waiting for you, how Catholicism got so cool, how youngAmericans and young people around the world are flocking to the Roman Catholic Church is
an article I'm reading right now.
um
I mean, it breaks my heart on so many levels, I mean, the Episcopal Church that I'm partof, we are already one of the smallest denominations and we are um declining at a rate

(31:42):
that's even higher than the other institutional churches.
So I don't think it is gonna survive.
Do I think that the actual church is gonna survive?
uh 100%.
I think we are finding new ways to share the faith and grow in the faith and live a lifeof faith.
But I, yeah, I don't think we're going to make it.

(32:05):
That's an institution.
just don't.
Yeah.
that's why I said I ping pong between those two things, like trying to save theinstitution from itself and trying to build new things.
And I'm ping ponging more on this side now.
And in fact, that is my new venture I just started.
It's called Traco, which uh is the Greek word for run.

(32:28):
which I'm a runner, so it's sort of a funny thing.
But I'm calling it a gym for your soul.
And so I'm hearkening back, and it's on Substack, and I am hearkening back to the earliestChristian communities.
Like the pre-New Testament, being a uh part of the Bible, ah how the very first Christiancommunities understood themselves as living the faith through prayer and worship and

(32:52):
community and hospitality and developing spiritual exercises.
for uh individuals and groups.
St.
Paul's, my beloved community, is set to be the first chapter.
So the idea is people can follow these spiritual exercises to basically learn what itmeans to be a Christian at the most basic level.
And you can do that as an individual online, or you can join a chapter.

(33:17):
So for instance, a church could become like a chapter of a...
of traco and have that be the center of their formational life within the context of beingpart of an institutional congregation if they want to.
So it's not trying to, if you will, compete with the church.
It is hopefully a way to help churches ah form their center.

(33:38):
Like when I say you could get rid of all the institutional stuff and do other things andpeople are not sure what that means, I could say, look, you could practice these exercises
like this.
um
Or people could use them to form communities that are outside the church, the currentlyestablished church.
So I'm actually right now more excited about helping to guide people.

(34:04):
and that's other thing.
Part of the practices is eventually, as I develop this, training guides, uh people whowould learn the practices deeply and then be basically
supported to share them with others, start their own chapters.
So, part of that for me is I think there are a lot of people who feel called intoministry, who haven't the slightest idea how to get started or are subjected to an

(34:30):
ordination process that feels antiquated and difficult and maybe they don't want to go tothree years of seminary and, you know, and that's a whole other topic.
em ways in which people can practice and develop their own ministries.
without necessarily being ordained or not necessarily being a minister in the traditionalsense that we understand it.

(34:52):
So ah I'm moving more into the creative side.
Substack has helped me a great deal.
Being on Substack, I have met people like you and so many people in ministry.
And I just feel that creative excitement of people finding new ways to engage the faithand become faithful people and follow Jesus.
seems like in some ways what's happening and you've talked a few times about this in adigital age and sub stack and how in some ways what's happening and it's almost like a new

(35:26):
kind of thing that is growing up alongside kind of the institution which is declining.
um And it's not necessarily against that institution, but it's just kind of
maybe growing up among the ruins um that is kind of coming up and maybe showing more of a,I guess what I would say is a networked way of being a church, which is maybe different

(35:54):
than what we're used to.
um It's not independent.
um That's just your church and you're on your own, but it's something more different thanwhat we've been used to.
Right, we have this way.
I just thought of two things at once.
I'll see if I can remember them in order.

(36:14):
First of all, I think a lot of times when I worked in a diocese and I've been aroundenough dioceses that they think, well, we'll just get these congregations to be together.
Like we'll have one priest who has three churches, little yoke summer, all that kind ofstuff.
And that works absolutely never.
I think that is not something that people want.
It's not people who have their own faith community want to be part of their own faithcommunity.

(36:37):
They do not want to be forced to worship with another faith community or to use theirbuilding or whatever or to share a priest with them or a minister with them because they
happen to be geographically local.
It doesn't work.
And yet, at the moment, we have so much technology that we can in fact facilitate doing alot of the ministry that we do together.

(37:00):
via this, you know, all the technology that we have to do that with.
And then that reminds me that A, I think we live in a post-denominational world.
I really, really do.
I really do not think that most people in our pews care, whether it's a Methodist churchor a Lutheran church or an Episcopal church.
mean, Roman Catholic is a little bit different, but for the most part, people want thatthey want an experience of worship.

(37:28):
that they feel familiar with or comfortable with.
they want a, I mean, there's no way to get around it, some level of a political slashtheological viewpoint that aligns with their own.
I mean, I just think that that is a true statement about the church today.
And if they can find that in a church, they're going to go to that church.

(37:48):
And if they can't, even if they are card carrying, Methodist or Presbyterian, if theycan't find that in a Presbyterian church, they're not going to go there.
So think we're moving towards a post-denominational world, which doesn't mean, and again,as an Episcopalian, I will say, the tradition is so fabulous, right?
And I do think that there are ways that we can and should hold on to that Anglicantradition, hold on to the Methodist tradition, and find new ways to express that, um even

(38:17):
in a post-denominational world.
I also think that so many congregations are
you
so Sunday worship focused as to then there's really not much else going on.
Like basically most of the congregation that does show up, shows up on Sunday morning andthat's pretty much it.
And so we're still trying to keep aid ministers and keep up buildings and all that kind ofstuff with congregations that are basically just there on Sunday, right?

(38:43):
And so part of the spiritual practices aspect of it is em reminding all of us that we comefrom a tradition.
that includes all sorts of other things besides worship.
uh And this goes back to like what are spiritual practices and how would you live aChristian life and what does that mean?
And that those sorts of things that are outside of worship that are still part of ourfaith community, we can absolutely do those much more easily online.

(39:09):
And we can much more easily do them with Christians of a different stripe or denominationor team or whatever.
So in other words, what I mean by that practically is
could still go to church, like my lovely church, they still go to their own building, thatsmall community, and have Sunday worship in very traditional Episcopal style, hallelujah.

(39:29):
And I lead them in it twice a month.
But then the rest of the week, then they have ways of engaging their prayer life.
we've been talking about discernment practices, like how do we know the will of God in ourlives?
How did the early church did that?
Those sorts of things they can do on their own.
and they can do it as a collective community, both in person and online, and they can dowith other people across the church and beyond the church's walls electronically, and also

(39:56):
they can also gather in person if they want to.
So to really help people engage faith practices and how we live our lives as Christians inways that are beyond worship, then helps them see how there's all these different ways we
can connect.
And again, to say, do I think worship is important?
Crucially.

(40:16):
But I don't think it should be the end all and be all.
In fact, I wrote a blog about that, right?
Is it too much of a good thing?
Is Sunday worship too much of a good thing, right?
That that should be an expression of our faith and it's incredibly important to worship incommunity.
And I think we should worship in person.
I think that online worship is just not the same thing because you're not participating inthe same way.
But then there's so much else about living lives of faith that isn't worship, thatworship's incorporated in all sorts of other practices.

(40:45):
A lot of those other practices can absolutely be done online or with people of anotherdenomination or non-denominational or people who are new to Christianity.
So, I'm just kind of curious, what kind of spiritual practices do you think work wellonline?
Well, I certainly think, I think prayer works really well online, right?

(41:07):
em And things like vigils.
So here's something we did em as part of this development of these spiritual practices.
So in our tradition, em during Holy Week, between Maundy Thursday and Good Friday, oftenchurches have what's called an altar at the vigil of repose.
So in other words, it is um

(41:28):
It's symbolically about staying with Christ in the Garden of Gethsemane and staying awakeall night.
And so what happens liturgically in the church is that at the end of the Maande Thursterservice, we clear, we strip the altar.
It's very, very beautiful.
And we take away the community, we take away all Eucharist and everything that has to dowith the sacrament and everything.

(41:49):
Sometimes churches will take a small amount of communion that has been blessed and move itto a small altar and light a candle and sit there.
all night up until Good Friday.
And Good Friday is the day that we do not celebrate the Eucharist because it's the daythat we remember Christ's death.
So in the early morning hours, you reverently consume what's left and then we go on withGood Friday.

(42:11):
So a lot of churches, and especially earlier in my uh career when I worked at largerchurches, actually do an altar of repose and people sign up from the congregation to come
and sit there for a couple of hours.
And this very common practice is really moving.
Well, so in our small church, both the location of the church, the age of the members andthe small amount of members and the fact that I'm 45 minutes away, it does not seem

(42:35):
practical that we could do that.
So I said, how about we do a virtual all night visual at the altar of our post?
So at the end of the Monday Thursday service, we set aside a small amount of theEucharist.
I carried it home to my place and 45 minutes away and there was an altar that I had set uphere and I set it up with a camera.

(42:57):
And every hour on the hour from 8 p.m.
when the service ended, actually, at 8 p.m.
we actually videoed the altar being stripped.
So it really started at nine.
From 9 p.m.
until 8 a.m.
every hour, I would get up, turn my little phone on, live stream it on Substack, thepicture of the vigil, and I would read m something from the ancient fathers or sing a

(43:25):
hymn.
or say a small prayer for about 10 minutes.
And people were invited to log on for those 10 minutes and be part of the vigil umwhenever they wanted to, right?
They could stay up for an hour on their own.
And then at the end of the hour, log on to say the prayers or they could start with theprayers or they could stay up all night.
And we had, well, I will say this, I was never alone.

(43:45):
Somebody logged on with me all night at two in the morning, three in the morning, at fourin the morning.
I at least had one other person praying with me all night.
And um
people logged on that we don't know, right?
That we're not part of our community.
I mean, they're part of our community, but they're not members of St.
Paul's.
And the most unexpected people, like the people that I wasn't sure would, you know, did.

(44:08):
And people, it was incredibly moving.
And so they got to participate in that incredibly important ancient liturgical practice,fully online.
Well, not fully, it started in person, but they could participate fully online and theycould participate in a way
that basically we weren't really able to do that all in person for lots of practicalreasons.

(44:30):
But so it was a way that enhanced that liturgical practice.
And it was amazing.
I was really tired on Good Friday.
uh So that's what I mean.
So there are worship, prayer, discernment, just conversations, Bible study, those sorts ofthings work really well online.

(44:54):
Yeah, and we here have uh kind of moved, we for a while did Bible study on Zoom for a fewyears and have gone hybrid.
So it's partially on Zoom and part here.
And that's gone really well in kind of bringing people who maybe aren't able to come butin person, but um can join us and those who want to be there in person.

(45:20):
And I think
using that technology, especially for smaller churches, uh really can help.
Yeah, 100%.
And also, like one of my big things, I'm writing a blog about this, it's going to come outsoon, is like, just say no to meetings.
Like, you know, this is one of my more radical ideas, but it's true.
Don't go to meetings anymore.

(45:41):
Don't go to meetings anymore.
Don't have meetings anymore.
Don't go to meetings anymore.
So here's what I mean by that.
So part of the practices that, uh one of the practices that we're developing as part ofTreco is em economics.
Economics, leadership.
So how did the ancient Christians organize themselves, right?

(46:01):
Like how did they deal with money?
How did they deal with leadership?
How did they deal with who's in charge?
How did they deal with bad behavior?
How did they deal with all of those things and being in relationship with these familylife and all that kind of stuff.
And so instead of having like a board meeting, which is a 20th century, a mid 20th centuryorganizational concept where you all sit around and read your budgets and all that kind of

(46:24):
stuff.
What if instead you practice your economic, your household management, right?
So your community hospitality.
So in other words, you have a gathering that is incorporated in prayer and discernment,like waiting on God's word, um you know, and includes food like the early Christians

(46:49):
always did.
And you bring up these topics in terms of
How are you living together in Christian faith and life?
And so yes, the boiler does need to get to be repaired.
But how are we actually approaching that in terms of seeking God's will and guidance,discerning, using our discerning and peacemaking skills among members who may have

(47:14):
differing points of view, that sort of thing.
How are we seeing addressing the boiler as part of practicing our faith?
And to me, this is what I mean when I say, get rid of meetings, it's killing us, it issucking our souls.
Look at our community life together as Christians as exactly that.
um Yes, we have practical concerns.

(47:35):
So did the first Christians, right?
How did they go about them, right?
In the context of their faith.
And so just, it seems simple and it is simple, but just changing that orientation towardsthese are the elders of the community um prayerfully discerning.
how we are going to share our resources and use our resources to support our community isa whole different experience than sitting at a board meeting looking at your budget.

(48:04):
Yes, it does.
I think, you know, I think that's something that I struggle with, especially with ourcongregation, because we're not a large congregation, but there are things that need to be
done.
How do you do it?
And also, how do you kind of always get the sense that the people who are there, theywould rather not have a meeting.

(48:31):
I will say that when we have those
things.
It's kind of interesting.
I always leave feeling this is a good bunch of people that they're finding ways of how todo this.
um But I think it's how do we do it out of that structure that we have been doing itbecause that doesn't work anymore.

(48:53):
Right, right.
Again.
Right, and that is the thing, right?
And people can't see it.
And so this is part of the whole, we gotta just do it, right?
We gotta just say like, let's just do it, right?
And I remember talking to a church, and this was years ago, this is when I was in a canon.
And because I'm also gonna talk about this in a second, but it also does come back tomoney, how we are gonna support communities.

(49:18):
But in this case, we are talking about tithing and...
em
I'm going to say there's another radical thing.
I hate the word stewardship.
I don't use it anymore.
I refuse to fill out a pledge card.
And I honestly don't think that we should ask people to tie their income to a church.
I think we should encourage people to give away 10 % of their income to serve others, butthat could look like a lot of things.

(49:39):
Anyway, so I was sitting with this church back then and we were talking about tithing and10%.
And although I still stand by this idea, and I said to them, I said, what if
you really encouraged and in fact expected that everybody who was a member of the churchwas truly giving 10 % of what they brought in.

(49:59):
And
some of that money was available for the actual members of the congregation.
Like for instance, if you need help sending your kid to college, right, the church isgoing to give you $10,000, right?
If you need your roof repaired and you can't, you know, the church is going to take careof that.
People freaked out over that.

(50:20):
Let me just say the church should not do that.
But I said, what if you take it more seriously in terms of your Christian community?
So in other words, why don't people
give 10 % of their income because they're afraid that they're going to need that money,right?
Like that they're afraid that, and um there's lots of reasons, but I think that's a bigone.

(50:41):
And so, but what if they knew that they could count on their church to be there for themfinancially, just like they're there for them spiritually.
And um again, you had a discernment process, you know, about like who's in need of thismoney right now.
And yes, we should absolutely give money to those who are in need.
But I also feel like

(51:01):
I, and that's the other reason why I also don't use the word outreach anymore.
There's something that sits not well with me about this idea of finding those people outthere who need our resources and giving them to them.
To me, the call is there are no those people.
Those, how are those people our people, right?
In other words, like not that you shouldn't give money to somebody who is hungry or, buthow are we welcoming them fully into our community?

(51:30):
as well as giving them the financial resources that they need.
And I think that there's this like weird, you know, like it's hard, it's a vulnerable anddifficult place to go with spirituality and money in general.
And also I think that there's a lot of us are like, well, I don't need anything, right?
This is not for me.
But that idea that we are all us, right?

(51:52):
That we are all neighbors and that includes that we are all in need sometimes.
We could all be in need, physical need as well as emotional and spiritual need.
em And to keep those people out there, those people who need stuff, to me is in some wayspushing away the idea of Christian community that actually incorporates everybody.

(52:13):
And also, think just a little tiny bit deep down inside, it makes us feel good, like we'redoing for others.
Instead of we all belong together to this somewhat messy,
congregation, community of people.
And some of us are going to have more needs than others, right?

(52:33):
And some of us are going to need things at different times than others.
And some of us are going to give different gifts at different times, um that kind ofthing.
So, it's surprising to say that church should not take my advice.
uh But I still live in this idea.
And so to me, it is like living in religious community, uh monasteries and convents.

(52:54):
You can do that.
without actually living in the same place, I think.
There are aspects of that, that you can intentionally live a Christian life with otherpeople.
That includes sharing of actual resources, which would include, know, coughing up somemoney for the boiler, right?
If that's what it needed.

(53:15):
But it also could include helping out, you know, someone who sits in the pews with youfinancially because they are in need of that, right?
And you don't have to
prove that you're a card-carrying poor person, right?
Lots of us these days need financial help to do various things or feel very insecure.
And if I knew that my church would take care of me if I found myself in some kind of realdifficult situation, I mean, I mean, that's priceless.

(53:45):
sort of actually putting that part in the second chapter of Acts, which of course,recording this just before Pentecost.
But it's about, you know, the believers gathering, everything had everyone in common.
But that's kind of what you're getting at here.
Yeah.
uh

(54:08):
Yeah, yeah.
And Acts, you know, I'm just, I'm Acts fiend, you know, just the early church, right?
Like to like see, so many of the first disciples, the first people who had to navigate theworld and the culture that they lived in without Jesus right there with them.
What did they do?

(54:28):
Right?
And one of the things that I'm struck about Acts so much and one of the reasons that it'sone of my favorite books of the Bible, the joy, the joy, right?
that excitement, that people just doing all sorts of amazing things and being so happy andthat they all got together and ate and they all got together and they spontaneously shared
things.
And to me, that's also part of the spiritual practices is sort of is part of why, um whywe would anybody would want to be a member of a church.

(54:56):
And, and I think what we're losing as the as the institution is crushing us is that senseof joy.
And that's what I want to get back to.
And I will say this, since I've been a free range priest, I have had so much more joy inmy ministry.
So much more joy in my ministry.
And I actually said this to somebody the other day.

(55:17):
I said, you could not pay me any amount of money to go back to full-time ministry in acongregation.
And she was like, wow, you said that with some vehemence.
I was like, I did.
I mean it.
You could not pay me.
any amount of money to go to a big church and be a full, even a medium sized church or asmall church if they could afford it and be their full time set pastor who is in charge of

(55:42):
everything.
There's so many reasons, but one of them is that, is that the joy that I feel, you theconnection that I feel to my relationship with God and the joy that I feel being part of
other people's connection to their relationship with God.
I mean, I just have found it in such abundance.

(56:02):
serving my ministry the way I do.
Do you think that this is a model or maybe I should ask this, have people, especiallyother priests or pastors come to you and said, I'd like to do this, how do I do this?
100%.
And I do coach clergy and I have talked to a couple dioceses about training clergy thisway.

(56:25):
I've had talked, I've given like group conversations that, you know, given talks aboutthis.
talk about it a lot.
And I mean, people get really excited and they really want to do it.
But, and then they get in their own way.
Then it's like, but, but I can't, but, but like the congregation will never go for this.
Although I've I've talked with lots of congregations about it too.

(56:46):
And they're all like, this is awesome, but we couldn't get a clergy person to do it.
So we talk ourselves out of the fear of it.
And the fear is this.
It's way more unstable.
It gets way less sure than getting a salary.
Although, again, the irony of the fact that how long are these salaries going to last?

(57:07):
If we're churches that keep closing churches, and for every church that turns over arector, then that was full time.
they're not replacing them with a full-time clergy person, right?
That sort of thing.
So I think, and then the idea that clergy aren't going to be there every Sunday alsofreaks people out.
and my admonishment to clergy that it starts with you and you doing less and you not beingin charge.

(57:33):
I had a big consultation with a small church and their part-time pastor recently.
And she was freaking out, right?
She was exhausted.
She was also trying to hold down another job and she just couldn't, you know, and I waslike, and then she described to me that she was, there was a, their music director wasn't
doing what they wanted the music director to do.

(57:54):
So she was trying to coach the music director and help the music director to do thingsbetter.
Like, why are you doing that?
Why are you doing that?
And she's like, well, it's my job.
I'm like, it does not have to be your job.
let the congregation talk to their own music director if they want something different,right?
You, it's your job to pray for them, come alongside them.
If they need you to ask the question, where's God in the middle of all this?

(58:14):
That's awesome.
But please do not get in the middle of that.
Like let them, you know, figure that out.
And she couldn't do it.
She could not do it because she saw herself as helping the congregation.
She didn't think they could do it, right?
And that's the other pushback I get when people say,
Well, how are these lay people supposed to know what they're supposed to do?

(58:34):
Right?
That kind of thing.
And I'm like, first of all, if you've been in a small church lately, you know they'realready figuring it out because they have no choice.
So again, that's my job.
My job is to help them put it into theological terms and to support them and to answertheir practical questions uh while they do it.
And so people get scared and they just cannot see their way out of the old way.

(59:01):
diocese crushes it, I'm sorry.
Some dioceses are trying really hard.
again, every decision is then sent to a committee and then a committee of people that I'mnot in front of, that I'm not in the middle of trying to convince them otherwise, are
like, that's just crazy.
That doesn't work.
uh The blog I posted last Tuesday, um somebody got on there and was like, you can'texpect, just really came after me.

(59:25):
I mean, not personally after me, but like, that's never going to work.
I'm like, but.
But it works.
I actually do it.
It does work.
And I will say that in the last two years, we have baptized over a dozen people at my35-person church, including last year, two years ago, two adults at once, which is huge

(59:47):
for a church that only has 35 people in it.
That's a third of the congregation.
And so I will also say that it's not just about me in that sense that this is a thrivingcongregation.
They don't have a lot of money.
They don't have a lot of people.
They're old, just like most mainline churches are old.
They're not particularly tech savvy, but they are on fire for the Holy Spirit and they areengaged with their ministry and it is the most fabulous place.

(01:00:09):
And if you walked in there, you would just be like, I never want to leave here.
You know, I was actually going to bring up the, cause I just before we came on, saw theresponse to the uh message that comment that was left.
And that actually brought up one, probably this is to kind of wrap things up.

(01:00:31):
The final thing that I want to talk about is every so often I'll read something by someonewho talks about churches and everything.
And they'll say something to the effect of
You know, we have too many churches that are basically on a lifeline, and we need to justbasically tell them that they need to spend their ministry.

(01:00:55):
And I'm always...
That always bothers me.
Usually because they tend to be small member congregations, which I lead in you.
And I don't think that just because they're small means that they're not viable orthriving.

(01:01:16):
And so I'm kind of curious where you think about that, because it seems like you in thatanswer, or least how you were responding to that, were pushing back.
against kind of that sense of, you know, basically that you're not the mid-century,mid-20th century model, so therefore you just can't be a church anymore.

(01:01:38):
Yeah, yeah, I'm looking for that because it was on my blog post.
I'm just going to read it.
By the way, I read this comment to my church on Sunday, last Sunday, because I wanted toknow how they felt about it.
This person writes, amongst other things, if growing is not going to happen, cut bait.

(01:01:59):
Don't die a death of a thousand paper cuts.
And golly, if one is the bishop, have some guts and close those places that arecontinually working on the diocesan dime.
And that's hilarious to me because if you think my congregation gets any money from thediocese, that's not how it works.
They have to actually give 10 % of what they bring into the diocese.
So yeah, so the hostility behind that and this idea that small churches are somehowfailures and they need to be closed is part of that institutional mindset.

(01:02:28):
Now, in all fairness, some congregations are going to have to be closed.
There comes a point.
And also, I am also going to be really honest and say, not all of them are small.
Working with lot of congregations as I do, will also say, scratch the surface of mostmid-sized congregations and they are a mess because they're being hit the hardest by all

(01:02:48):
these changes because they can barely, if they can, actually support a full-timeclergyperson's salary plus all their benefits, plus they're losing membership, plus they
usually have some kind of staff.
so the pressure on them is enormous.
oh so I'll just start right there.
But then I will say that why would you close a church that you didn't have to close?

(01:03:13):
If a church is a thriving place of sharing the gospel, then what would be the point?
And if the only measure is how much money they bring in or um how many members that theyhave, then I think that we miss something entirely.
And in fact, think supporting

(01:03:35):
lots and lots and lots of small congregations is actually the way to go, right?
It makes it easier for everybody.
And there are ways to do that, including, I will also say, back to money.
So the spiritual practices that we're working on, Treco, it's a subscription.
It's going to be through, right now, I'm not charging for it because we're stilldeveloping it, but it's going to be an actual subscription on Substack that people can pay

(01:03:59):
money for, just like they pay for my newsletter, some people do.
um And as I set up St.
Paul's and other places as chapters, I'm setting it up so that those subscriptions go tothem.
So as they develop the practices within their community, they can also take on newmembers, both online and in person, and those subscriptions will go into their church

(01:04:21):
budget, right?
And so also developing new ways for congregations and communities of all kinds to paywhatever bills that they have.
m is basically finding income streams for uh smaller churches and all churches actually.
Because I think that the idea that people are going to pledge enough money, unless youtake my idea and put all your money in common, which so far nobody has, then most people

(01:04:46):
aren't going to pledge enough money to, and then also you create this whole thing, as weall know too, that there's like a handful of people in a congregation who do have enough
money to give large gifts.
And it creates an inequality.
also creates a pressure.
Also, when those people die, then you're losing a ton of money.
it's it's, it's, you know, again, I do think people should give money to the church and totheir church.

(01:05:10):
And I think there are many ways to do that.
So just like I think clergy ministry, I think works best when it is one ministry made upof different pieces, right?
That you serve in different ways.
I also think that congregations should have multiple income streams that helps them paytheir bills.
people can give money to church.
I think people should use their buildings much more creatively.

(01:05:30):
And I think people should have subscriptions of some kind.
Worship is free, we're not charging for access to God, that kind of thing.
But there are ways that you can set up subscriptions to bring in income too.
And that with multiple sources of income, congregations can support a modest budget, whichthey probably don't need much more than that.

(01:05:54):
So if people want to learn more and I'm gonna guess people want to learn more.
uh
stuff to share.
Where should they go?
FreeRangePriest.org is the name of my ministry.
It's also the name.
uh My Substack is my website now.
That's the other thing I did.
I got rid of my website.
St.
Paul's is getting rid of their website too because I'm just going to put it right onSubstack so that like, you know, because, well, for lots of reasons, we don't have time to

(01:06:20):
go into it.
But suffice it to say, FreeRangePriest.org will bring you to my Substack, to my blog.
You can sign up as a subscriber there.
I also, in my about section, have my email address.
If you want to get in touch with me, you're welcome to.
And then as part of my Substack publications, I also just started Treco, which isT-R-E-X-O.

(01:06:41):
The X is the chi for Christ, so it's Treco.
Treco.church.
It's the same deal.
It'll bring your right to that Substack.
And you can sign up there to be part of that as well.
And both of those things are free to sign up for.
You can sign up as a subscriber.
I love subscribers.
Pay subscribers, but you can also be part of both of those for free.
Okay.

(01:07:01):
Thank you so much for this.
Well, Kathy, thank you.
This has been great.
mean, it's, it's, I've been wanting to kind of talk to you about this and I'm reallyhoping that people um from other traditions will be able to listen to this and figure out
ways of how to do this because I think this is needed.
People were not in, you know, you talked earlier being born in 66.

(01:07:26):
I was born, I'm a few years younger, born in 69 and
that model of that period just doesn't, isn't working anymore.
And it's okay that doesn't work anymore.
Things change, things need change.
And so how do we make sure that the gospel fits into our current And I think this is oneway of showing that it can.

(01:07:53):
Yeah, yeah.
And I know you got to go, but I'm going say I'm doing a lot of reading of ancient churchdocuments right now as I'm developing these spiritual practices.
And one thing that I just read, it was talking about how even the earliest church, right,they, a lot of them are Jewish, a lot of them weren't Jewish, and that was, you know, a
big issue for the church.
But as they developed and different communities developed in different ways, right,different communities of disciples started, they were basically constantly doing this

(01:08:20):
adaptive
you know, how do we understand the gospel and how we live it, given our own culture andour own times and our own geographical location, and also our backgrounds, you know, our
faith backgrounds and our cultural backgrounds, and that that was actually how the churchformed in the beginning.
And so to me, I find that so inspiring that we should be excited about how we are doingthat, taking the basic practices, taking the scripture, the sacraments.

(01:08:49):
you know, and everybody, all the traditions that have come before us, and then adaptingand incorporating them for the culture and the times and the location that we live in now.
And I feel like for whatever reason, the institutional church has just been stuck in thatplace for, I mean, I'm 58 years old, so for going on six decades, we have like somehow

(01:09:10):
tried to work against that very thing that was the thing that started the first church.
And so I will leave you with that.
you
Thank you so much, Dennis.
You're welcome.

(01:09:57):
So I want to thank Cathy for taking the time to chat.
I'm kind of curious what are your thoughts about the episode.
As always, if you have something to say about the episode, feel free to send me an email.
And you can do that by going to churchandmain, all one word, at substack.com.
em By the way, you might have noticed before we went into the interview that I, the titlethat I gave for Cathy is

(01:10:27):
father, Cathy Caimano.
Cathy actually explains why she calls herself father and not mother.
You can find that out by going to her free range priest substack at free range priest, allone word, dot org.
That um article I think just went up this week.

(01:10:49):
It's a fascinating one.
I kind of wondered about it myself because I kept seeing
the initial FR, which I know usually means father.
I was kind of like, okay.
But I think it's a great way of how she looks at it.
I think you'll enjoy it.
And you will also find a lot of interesting things that she talks about concerning being afree-range pastor.

(01:11:17):
So I hope that you will find those helpful.
If you want to learn more about this podcast, listen to past episodes, donate, pleasevisit churchandmain.org.
If you want to read articles, and I just have a new one that I just posted this week, youcan also visit churchandmain.substack.com to read related articles.

(01:11:43):
I hope that you will consider subscribing to the podcast, which you can do on yourfavorite podcast app, and please consider leaving a review.
that helps others find this podcast.
And then finally, if you are able to make a donation, you can do that in two ways.
You can do that on the sub stack uh and you can also donate by going in the link and Ihave the link in the uh subscription.

(01:12:09):
uh I'm sorry, in the uh podcast description at Buy Me a Coffee and you can go tobuymeacoffeealloneword.com backslash
Dennis L.
Sanders, also one word.
Also, please consider rating, rate to leave a rating or a review of the podcast.
You can do that on your favorite podcast app.

(01:12:32):
If you do either of those things, that really helps others find the podcast.
I hope that you will consider doing that.
That is it for this episode of Church in Maine.
As always, I'd to say thank you so much for listening.
Take care, everyone.
Godspeed, and I will see you very soon.