May 9, 2025 • 56 mins
In this special Church Potluck episode, host Dale McConkey welcomes a lively panel of guests—including longtime podcast contributor Dr. Michael Papazian, first-time guest and Catholic partisan Rita Lawler, and a bonus interview with Catholic theologian-in-training Brett Adams—to reflect on the historic election of the new pope: Pope Leo XIV, formerly Cardinal Robert Prevost.
The conversation covers a wide range of theological, cultural, and political implications of having the first American (and dual Peruvian citizen) pope, affectionately once known as “Father Bob.” Guests explore Pope Leo’s unexpected rise, his reputation for humility and spiritual depth, his connections to Villanova University and Chicago's South Side, and the careful symbolic choices he's already made—like partially embracing traditional papal vestments and choosing the name “Leo.”
Themes of continuity and change run throughout the discussion. Panelists celebrate the deliberate, bridge-building, and Christ-centered tone Pope Leo seems to be striking—potentially extending the spirit of Francis while introducing a more structured and precise leadership style. There’s thoughtful engagement on topics like synodality, Catholic moral leadership, institutional reform, and the balancing act between tradition and adaptation in today’s church.
And of course—this wouldn’t be Church Potluck without a game show! “Papal Preferences” tests our guests’ knowledge of Pope Leo’s favorite sports teams, culinary leanings, and fashion choices. (Spoiler alert: He’s a White Sox fan, not a Cubs fan!)
BONUS INTERVIEW: Catholic convert and attorney Brett Adams joins the show to share his excitement and analysis, offering sharp theological reflections on Pope Leo’s first homily and what his papacy may signal for Catholics around the globe.
Don't miss our two other pope-related episodes:
- “Conclave Confidential: How the Pope is Chosen”
- “Pope Francis: The Legacy of a Reformer”
☕ Church Potluck is where Christian curiosity comes to the table. If you enjoyed this episode, please rate and review us—and share it with a friend. Thanks for listening, and as always: something to chew on, and food for thought.
The views expressed on Church Potluck are solely those of the participants and do not represent any organization.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
And away we go.
This has been a terrible week.
I mean a great week in manyways, but I've been so busy with
other things Like podcasts,Like this.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Yeah, the week started on Monday with that.
I just keep pulling you awayfrom all your responsibilities
At the time we didn't have apope, and now we do.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
And here I'm back with another podcast.
And then yesterday I gave twoseparate Zoom lectures at two
different venues, boththeological, so this has been
Theology Week.
Wow, different venues, boththeological, so this has been
Theology Week.
I've decided to go justcomplete theology now, because
nobody cares about my philosophy, but apparently there's a
following in theology, I'veshifted my area.
I'm coming out now for thefirst time on this podcast.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
You go to where the winds blow right, Call me a
theologian, from now on Allright, all right, and we got a
guest here.
We'll go ahead.
Actually, let's go ahead, andjust to start off with the
introductions, let me start offby saying welcome everyone to
Church Potluck, where we areserving up a smorgasbord of
Christian curiosity.
I'm your host, dale McConkie,sociology professor or should I
(01:17):
say halftime sociology professor, and, for a couple more weeks,
united Methodist pastor, and youknow there are two keys to a
good church potluck Plenty ofvariety and engaging
conversation, and this isexactly what we are trying to do
here on Church Potluck Sittingdown with friends and sharing
our ideas on a variety of topicsfrom a variety of academic
(01:37):
disciplines and a variety ofChristian traditions.
Not too much variety this week,though, it's all been one core
topic, but let's welcome ourguest.
We're going to keep our otherguest a mystery and a surprise
guest over here, because we'vealready been talking about, we
have, as you've already heard,one of our most regular guests.
(01:57):
We have philosopher MichaelPapazian.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Thank you, it's good to be back.
It's been so long.
It's been a while.
Michael Papazian, that's right,thank you, it's good to be back
.
It's good to be back.
It's been so long.
It's been a while, that's good.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
We don't do a podcast for the entire semester,
basically, and then all of asudden we just this is the week,
right, that's what it is.
I think.
Isn't that how a lot ofpodcasts are?
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Like they do all the recording shows.
I guess I'll have to thinkabout that in the future, but
that's what happens when you godown to halftime All of a sudden
you have all this time that youcan do.
But I'm very excited to welcomeour other guest, who thus far
has been very quiet.
But I want to welcome for thefirst time to the podcast Rita
Lawler.
Yay, Rita, tell us somethingabout yourselves and then about
(02:47):
yourself, Okay.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
I don't know why I made you plural.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
There You're different personalities.
You can talk about each one, Ithink there are at least three
of me Of your many selves right.
Speaker 3 (02:58):
I do have different life stages.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
There you go.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
Currently I am an auditor of many courses at Berry
College, all in the religionand philosophy department.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Yes, you are around Evans Hall more than some
professors are.
Speaker 3 (03:12):
Possibly, but to my delight.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
That's excellent.
Speaker 3 (03:16):
Also, this is May and it's eight years since the
death of my husband, PeterLawler, so if you wanted a
Catholic commentary today, hiswould probably be much, much
better than mine.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Kind of appropriate.
We've got an empty seat rightthere to think about In fact,
I've got that in my notes lateron to reflect on what Peter
might think about all this andyou are actually a longtime
employee at Mercy Senior Careright.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
I was a director of Mercy Care from.
So more than an employeedirector over the entire thing
For about 22 years.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
But I've been retired for 10 years, Dale.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
Is that something?
Speaker 3 (03:50):
It is something and it's a good place to be.
Good, because it gives me theluxury of being here.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
Excellent, and that's a good point.
So thank you so much, rita.
We're glad to have you here.
We have another guest, brettAdams, who is supposed to join
our panel today remotely, but Ihad some technical difficulties
and so we're going to talk toBrett a little bit later and
then edit him into the podcastat the end.
But we are very grateful forBrett to be on the podcast, so
(04:17):
let's give him a round ofapplause now for that and let's
go ahead and move on.
We already gave a hint of whatwe're talking about today, and I
don't know if anyone else isgoing to enjoy this, and our
notes are very scattered todayor my notes are very scattered
today, in part because it's suchshort notice, but also because
I spent all my time doing this.
(04:38):
Oh yeah, all right, think it isLeo.
He was an American Pope, isthat alright, it's fine.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
How long did it take you to do that, leo?
Speaker 1 (04:57):
I'm not getting any reaction here.
Now I'm feeling a littlesheepish about this.
It's fine, alright.
Yes, we have a new Pope, anAmerican Pope, leo XIV, formerly
Cardinal Robert Prevost.
I'm not sure if I'm pronouncingthat right Formerly, just
(05:17):
Father Bob is what he was called.
What does this mean for Americaand what does it mean for
American Christianity andAmerican Catholicism, and what
does it mean for Catholicism asa whole and for Christianity in
general and just for the wholeglobal dynamics of the world?
We can get as broad as we want,but just what are the
implications of all of this?
And we have our guests, aswe've already introduced, to
(05:39):
come and talk about this.
And, Rita, you mentioned yourrelationship, your long time.
How long were you married toPeter?
38 years 38 years, how aboutthat?
But you also now have been apracticing Catholic for a very
long time, and so just to openit up.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
I'll start with that.
Actually, I haven't been apracticing Catholic for a very
long time.
Oh, sorry about that, I've beenon the edges of Catholicism
since I was about 18 years oldand that was through reading and
through education and throughfriendships and proximity to my
husband.
Employment with the Sisters ofMercy Always been really close,
(06:16):
but it was really the advent ofPope Francis that helped me
cross the line.
Is that right?
I attended St Mary's since 1979, but I couldn't really feel
compelled to come in and gothrough all that took until we
had the voice of Pope Francis.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
How about that.
That's great, so feel free to.
We reflected on Pope Francis inthe last episode, but if
there's ever anything you wantto say about that, feel free.
So you define yourself much asMichael has in terms of being
Catholic adjacent for much ofyour life.
Speaker 3 (06:44):
I was.
It penetrated my life, but Ijust couldn't quite get over
some of the barriers.
And Pope Francis was the voicethat softened all that for me
and compelled me.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
And with the announcement of Pope Leo, what
are your first impressions interms of the continuation of
Francis's tradition, or do yousee some discontinuity?
Or what are your initialimpressions?
Speaker 3 (07:08):
My initial impression is great relief, because there
were some other possibilitiesthat might have been a radical
break from some of hisinitiatives that were the
dearest to me.
And another feeling is just agreat hope, oh great.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
I like that.
I like that very much.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
I think he will continue many of Francis's
innovations and much of hisstyle, but I think he will be
much more deliberate in the wayhe speaks, and evidence of that
is he took one hour to write hisspeech and I listened to it and
you could hear themes, wordcontent all the way peace,
(07:52):
synodality, francis walkingtogether, unity all those themes
that are so important.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
In the commentary I've heard already.
I've heard the word deliberatementioned very often very
intentional about his words andhis actions.
Very much so, michael.
How about you?
What are your initial?
Speaker 2 (08:10):
reactions.
I know I was very surprisedthat an American would become a
pope.
I said that in a previous—.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
Well, I was going to do that.
After your impressions, let'sgo ahead and do that now.
Okay, any thought whatsoeverthat there was going to be an
American pope To be?
Speaker 2 (08:23):
honest.
No, I mean, I saw his namepreviously as a list of
possibilities, but I had kind ofwritten him off because of that
.
And so the thing nowconsidering it, I think that one
reason why maybe he was, or is,the most plausible American
candidate is because he's alsoPeruvian too.
(08:44):
So there's a sense in whichhe's both a North American and a
South American, and I thinkthere are other reasons why-.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
And some people have emphasized that he is an
American Pope, but not just a USPope.
Yes, very much an American Pope, and he does have Peruvian
citizenship now as well.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
He is, yeah, and he has, I think, for has it been
nine, so it's been a while nineyears or something he's at 15.
Yeah that he's been a dualcitizen.
He's the first I just read.
He's the first dual citizenPope.
Oh, really Interesting.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
Interesting.
So what were your initialimpressions?
Oh, before we get onto yourinitial impressions, I actually
look up the odds.
For some reason, I've beenintrigued by the odds making but
his odds were 2%, so 50 to 1.
Someone made a lot of money Ifyou bet on the American Pope,
and so I find it veryinteresting and again I would
(09:34):
love to have a documentaryconclave now to see the dynamics
if this person was going intruly at that level, for the
decision to be made fairlyquickly.
You would think that if someonewho was under the radar was
going to be elected pope, thatit would have been a longer
process to get there, but thedecision was made just about the
same length of time as it tookto elect Francis and Benedict
(09:57):
before him.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
I think they knew what they wanted and I think it
truly was a case of come HolySpirit.
I mean, this was a spiritualprocess, a discernment, and I
think they were looking for aunifier, and I think he will be
that.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
I think that's a great point and I was listening
to something on CNN which wasnormally a political commentary
and it was actually a very goodconversation, because someone
early on mentioned sometimes wedon't want to always put this
through a political lens, right,Much like Conclave does, right,
the movie Conclave very muchputs it through a lens.
But when you mentioned the HolySpirit, the Holy Spirit is
(10:34):
supposed to be guiding theprocess and it was very
interesting to listen to all ofthese commentators all over the
political spectrum kind ofagreeing that yes, we can't
always put religious activitiesthrough political prisms, which
happens too often in our moderncommentary.
So I'm really glad that youalready brought the Holy Spirit
into this.
Speaker 3 (10:51):
I think it was there and I think he has always felt
called by the Holy Spirit and Ithink he is a very holy man.
So that was one of my primaryimpressions of him just looking
at him, his warmth, his smile.
And then, as we began to hearmore about his life, you heard
from his neighbors that he andfrom his brother, that he wanted
(11:14):
to be a priest since the timehe was six, and he did serve
mass, pretend on the ironingboard as the altar.
Now, these are things you couldonly hear from a family member
or somebody that shared yourfirst grade.
He knew, he always knew, he wascalled.
So there are people that are andwe do need to listen to them
(11:34):
and that has happened.
Miraculously, that has happened.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
That's great, great, thank you.
At the same time, you hear allthis emphasis on how he's a holy
person I want to come back tothat but you also hear some just
very earthy things that makehim just like a normal person,
and I think the fact that he'sfrom the United States kind of
adds to that right.
So there's all these thingsthat we're hearing that are just
make him seem so normal inevery day as well.
With that in mind, let's do agame show.
(11:59):
All right, this is the easiestgame show of all time.
I made it nice and easy for ourfirst-timer, rita, okay.
Speaker 3 (12:12):
Now this will be embarrassing if I don't do it.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
You shouldn't say it's easy.
I guess I should.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
I will edit it out if it turns out that you all are
bad at this, but I'm sure,hearing your conversation before
we even got started, I knowyou're all going to knock this
out of the park, literally,because this is called papal
preferences.
So I'm going to give you twothings and you have to tell me
which of the two Father Bob, whois now Pope Leo XIV, prefers.
Okay, so papal preferences whenit comes to baseball does—.
Speaker 3 (12:43):
Oh, it's not baseball .
Speaker 1 (12:45):
Does he prefer the Chicago Cubs or the Chicago
White Sox?
Being a native of Chicago, youwould think it's one of those
too.
Now, I know, you know.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
I now know.
I mean it took a while.
We had to really do somedigging.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
You actually did a little research on this, didn't
you?
As did I?
Yeah, of course.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
All I know is it was announced one way on television
and 20 or 30 minutes later ithad to be retracted, and his
brother made the correction thatis a good enough answer right
there.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
You know the context behind it and the answer.
So, michael, the answer is so,it's the White Sox.
He is a.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
White Sox fan.
At first we thought it was theCubs and apparently the
shameless Cubs actually had Idon't know if it was, I assume
it was real Wrigley Field itsaid.
You know, the Pope is a Cubsfan.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
Up on their big billboard outside their stadium.
They announced unless it wasfake, but I think this was
actual that they put up a sign.
He's a Cubs fan and, like yousaid, rita, that his brother
corrected nope, he's never, everbeen a Cubs fan.
He's always been a White Soxfan.
All right, along the same linewhen it?
Does Pope Leo XIV prefer the StJohn's Red Storm or the
(13:50):
Villanova Wildcats?
Speaker 3 (13:51):
I would say the Villanova, yeah, it's got to be
Villanova.
Not that I've heard of eitherteam before.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Oh, you know, I do not know this for a fact, but
how could it not be theVillanova Wildcats, given that's
where he attended?
He went to Villanova, yeah, andhe majored in mathematics,
apparently, and philosophy andmajored in mathematics,
apparently.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
And philosophy, and philosophy too, oh, that's the
perfect combination, I think,yeah, really, we've had quite a
few students here who Do youneed a napkin?
Speaker 1 (14:17):
You're drooling.
Oh yes, philosophy andmathematics, put them together.
Yeah, it's the perfect combo.
He's not really drooling, thatwas a joke.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
Humanities and science, and they share a lot of
commonalities going back toPythagoras.
Yeah, so he chose well in termsof his majors, and I mean I
have some connections withVillanova, I'm very happy you do
too, actually.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
I was going to say I heard you bragging about your
Villanova connections.
We were playing six degrees ofPope Leo XIV before, which I
imagine many Americans will bedoing now.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
Right, I just have a lot of friends at Villanova.
I've gone to the PatristicsMedieval Renaissance Conference
in the last three, four.
I forgot how many years I go inOctober for this wonderful
conference.
They have up there of reallynice people.
It's an Augustinian universityand of course Pope Leo is an
Augustinian I think the firstmember of the Augustinian.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
Order.
So we had our first Jesuit withPope Francis and now our first
Augustinian with Pope Leo, andyou have all those credentials
with Villanova.
But did you have a daughter whoattended Villanova?
See, that's why I said I knewyou had a connection too.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
And so yeah, we both— .
Speaker 1 (15:23):
Oh Rita, you're looking like you did not know
that.
I didn't know the sports teamsand I don't know didn't know the
sports teams and I don't knowwhat was her degree.
Kristen went to Villanova for ayear and she was studying both
psychology and education, butthat was also, unfortunately,
the year where Ingrid's cancercame back is terminal basically
and so Kristen came back andfinished her education at UGA,
(15:43):
had a great experience there aswell, but she enjoyed it.
It ended up only being one year, but she called it her Northern
adventure.
She enjoyed her experience.
That's a whole otherconversation that it was a
different culture, but it wasn'tthat based really on the
religion, just sort of there wasa bit of a social class
difference up there for her.
So anyway, she had a very goodtime up there, so anyway.
So you were right about that,all right.
(16:05):
So when it comes to cooking,does Popolio prefer cooking
Italian pizza or Peruvianstir-fry?
Speaker 3 (16:13):
I heard Italian pizza .
Speaker 1 (16:16):
There you go, you got it.
You got it.
Supposedly he was very wellknown for, since he studied some
in Italy, he picked up pizzacooking there.
Yeah, I didn't know that, youdidn't know that one.
No, so really got it for you.
No, so really got it for you.
And then so the final questionhere, when it comes to vestments
, when it comes to the regaliathat is worn by the Pope, is he
(16:37):
choosing the simple white robe,like Pope Francis did, or is he
opting for the complete papalvestments with the red mazetic
and cape and all the fanciness?
Speaker 2 (16:47):
See, I know he wore that the fancier one.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
He wore the Mufata, but I don't think he wore the
whole thing, so he sort of didthe middle.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
Half way.
Okay, so he went.
So he was Methodist.
He kind of did a little.
I did it, but not all the wayhe was trying to.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
It was a gesture to both sides.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
Yeah, he did not wear the papal hat.
I noticed he just had a simple.
Speaker 3 (17:06):
He wore the cape and I think that's all.
I didn't look down at the shoes.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
Okay, so my question.
There was a little bitmisleading, so he went the
middle way.
Which Anglicans?
Speaker 3 (17:16):
would appreciate.
He made a gesture which I thinkwas deliberate.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
Yes, that's a really good point.
Go ahead and elaborate on that,Rita, the deliberateness of
that, Because that's one of thethings I want to talk about.
Some of the early symbols,early gestures that he's done.
What are we to make of them?
Is he sending messages?
And so what do you think themessage is of wearing some of
the vestments, but not all?
Speaker 3 (17:35):
I think he wanted to make a gesture of welcome to
people who had missed some ofthe pomp, so he put on some and
he didn't make the reallycharming welcome that Pope
Francis did.
It was more reserved.
It was I'll use the word againdeliberate, where he chose his
(17:57):
words very carefully and usedwords that echoed the
Augustinian rule like walkingtogether, one heart, one mind,
together, unity, pathway to God.
Those things, they were verydeliberate.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
So he reached back to tradition in some ways, but he
also made it clear that therewas some continuity in some of
the reform-mindedness that PopeFrancis was having.
Speaker 3 (18:23):
I mean, those are the foundations of his order, but
they are themes of Francis'spapacy.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
Yeah, great, but they are themes of Francis's papacy.
Yeah, great, michael, we neverreally gave you the real chance
to say what your impressionswere.
What do you think is going onhere?
Speaker 2 (18:38):
It might be too early to tell I mean, you never know
but my first impressions areextremely favorable and I think
it was the right choice.
I think the spirit was involved, as always.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
Here's my biggest takeaway so far in terms of
everyone being so surprised thatit's an American pope, and some
people are politicizing this.
Oh, they've put an Americanpope to be a counter to Donald
Trump, and he's already.
When he was a cardinal, he didpost some things on Twitter that
were directly in opposition tothings that the president or
vice president had said, and sothere was some oh, you know,
(19:16):
I've heard people on the farleft and the far right trying to
politicize this, but I don'tthink that's what's going on.
I don't know what you all feel.
I don't think there was that.
I think that they really didsee him as a unifier, as you've
mentioned, rita, that I thinkthat they really did see him as
a unifier, as you've mentioned,rita, and he is the perfect
example, I think, to be anAmerican pope.
(19:37):
And so here's my big takeaway isthat people were always worried
if you had an American pope.
You know, a pope coming from asuperpower where there's already
all this power and influence,but he's the perfect epitome of
what you're supposed to do withyour power.
Right that he spent 20 years inPeru, that gaining power to
being in a powerful position wasnot his major goal and
(19:59):
aspiration, and so the fact thathe was very missionary-minded
and was willing to live in muchmore humble circumstances.
That is a major message forthose of us who live with
privilege and live in powerfulplaces that there are.
This is a way to emulate and away to serve.
Does that?
Speaker 3 (20:17):
make any sense to you all, Articulate it very well,
but yeah no I think that's right.
There will be politicalramifications, of course, but I
think he was chosen not becausehe was an American, but because
he was a globalist.
You know, he had experience inboth hemispheres and in Europe.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
He had heritage from France, from Italy from Spain
too, and apparently he hasHaitian.
Speaker 3 (20:42):
Yeah, and I heard Creoles too.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (20:46):
And so he brings all those things together life
experience, education, service,and so some here where he was a
high school teacher, very humblework for a long time.
And then in Peru, long time hewas recognized for his talent.
So he was the head of his order, which is not something that's
(21:10):
offered to many, especially atthe young age that he was,
because he's still young.
In fact, startlingly, he'syounger than me and that's sort
of a sign of advancing the firsttime that's happened.
That is the first time that'sever happened to me.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
Is there any other position in the entire world
where 69, you say, and he'syoung, yeah, that's right,
that's it, it's the Pope.
You say, and he's young.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
Yeah, that's right.
That's it.
It's the Pope.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
I think the Pope is.
I think yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:36):
One other reason I'm glad to see him is I always
thought of Pope Francis as theone remaining moral voice in the
world, and when he died Ithought who will take that place
?
And I'm not saying they're notother moral men, women, teachers
, but he had a recognized moralvoice.
That's what I should have said.
So I think the world longs forthat.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
And, like you said, I think he'll be very deliberate
in how he uses that, and I thinkwe also need people who are
very deliberate in how theyenter into the global
conversation of ethics.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
It's incendiary times .
Yes, and I think they werecognizant that it's incendiary
times.
Yes, and I think they werecognizant that it was an
incendiary time and that's whythey wanted a globalist and a
deliberate man.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
Yes, and I found it refreshing that President Trump,
who very often, if anyone hasspoken ill of him, will very
often speak ill of them rightback right and very often
exacerbate of them right backright and very often exacerbate
whatever the tension is.
And, as I mentioned, this Popehas said some things, maybe not
directly about Trump, butcertainly Trump's policies, and
(22:42):
Trump was very gracious in hiscomments and said it was good,
it was great to have an Americanso far, exactly, but it was a
feel-good day all around.
As far as I could tell, withone exception CNN did talk about
, there are people who areconcerned about just the whole
(23:02):
American conflict of the sexualabuse and so questioning whether
Cardinal Prevost was that'swhat I'm looking for deliberate
enough in that and taking andaddressing those issues.
Speaker 3 (23:16):
I've read that, yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
And I'm curious to see if, in the days when the
feel-good moment dies down, ifpeople will be concerned.
He seems to be very much on theside of working people, very
much on the side of immigrantsand migrants.
Taking the name Pope Leo wasvery intentional for that.
Pope Leo XIII was a pope duringthe early stages of the
Industrial Revolution and somuch immigration was going on
(23:42):
and so many people were movingfrom rural to urban areas and
Pope Leo said the CatholicChurch, one of their
responsibilities is to make surethat these people's rights are
protected and their dignity isupheld.
And so I would say that thispope is very intentional for
picking Leo.
And so there's that.
But he seems to be verytraditional when it comes to
(24:02):
most of the issues around sexand gender, and so I wonder if
people will push him on that inany way.
But just as Pope Francisultimately was and there was no
major changes but when it comesto same-sex marriage, ordination
of priests, just all the issuesaround sex and gender, he seems
to be quite traditional on.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
Yeah, I would agree.
So I'm not.
Again, we don't know, but I'mnot expecting any major changes.
I mean, these are issues thatpopes have spoken about, like,
for example, the ordination ofwomen.
It's just ruled out.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
Even as deacons Deacon issue.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
yeah, It'll be interesting to see if that comes
back.
Speaker 3 (24:38):
The deacon issue, I think is still alive.
It was alive when Francis died.
It was a key issue at the Synod.
It was not furthered along atthat point.
But at least it won't be likePope Benedict, where there was
an active war on women,religious and women theologians.
And the first thing after PopeFrancis was elected is he
(24:59):
invited the leadership ofreligious Catholic women to his
office and said what can I do?
And then he said the war isover.
The war is over Because therehave been literally
Inquisition-type things ofpeople like Sister Elizabeth
Johnson.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
So the policies did not change, but the tone and the
conversation changedsignificantly.
Speaker 3 (25:20):
I think some policies did change.
There was openness, there wereappointments, there were the two
different commissions, one in,I think, 2016 and another in
2020 on the ordination of womenDickens.
So the history is there.
What isn't there is theconsensus to move forward on it
just yet.
So I think they're looking foravenues for that.
(25:40):
I think that will go on and theother, I think, will be
continuing conversation FatherJames Martin, who's been, you
know, the key advocate.
Father James Martin, who's been,you know the key advocate
actually spent his synod tabletime with Pope Leo, then
Cardinal, and I think that is aconversation that will continue
and he will continue to have agood ear on that.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
So I think it'll be a matter of nuance, at least for
a while.
Yeah, you mentioned synod, andsynodality is something that the
new pope came out as continuingwhat Francis's vision for a
church that was open to dialogueand not just top-down.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
And elaborate for our audience what you mean by synod
.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
Oh, synod is a word just meaning.
It literally means in Greek youwant the etymology the roads
coming together.
Speaker 3 (26:29):
Right, it's not really.
Oh, you want the real citation,liddell Scott Jones, of the
Greek language, the etymology,the roads coming together.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
Citation that's giving me a headache.
Oh, you want the real citationLiddell Scott Jones of the Greek
language page.
Whatever, yeah, okay, anyway,chicago.
Style.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
That's giving me a headache, but you should love
that word.
You can learn that one.
Speaker 3 (26:47):
Oh no, it's a great word, I mean the.
Greek part we come together, wetalk, we have a meeting.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
It's a great word Synod is essentially— I mean the
Greek part we come together, wetalk, we have a meeting.
It's not just me, the pope,telling you what to do.
I listen to the bishops, youknow, listen to the laity.
It's sort of a more democratic,open process and that Francis
was very firmly in support ofthat vision of church governance
and leadership and Pope Leo hasexpressed that he is in
(27:13):
agreement with his predecessoron that.
Speaker 1 (27:15):
And there was much greater participation by women
in Pope Francis' synod than pastsynods as well.
Am I right about?
Speaker 3 (27:21):
that Well, there hadn't been a past synod, for I
mean, there've been councils,but this was a synod.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
Yeah, gotcha Great.
What haven't we talked aboutthat we need to talk about?
I don't know what haven't wetalked about that we need to
talk about.
I don't know what else is there?
Speaker 3 (27:32):
It was very disconcerting to me that
right-wing organizations thatwere well-funded went to Rome
and were actually lobbying in apolitical style.
Speaker 1 (27:44):
Is that right?
Speaker 3 (27:45):
The cardinals, and there were massive parties in
gardens and people were invited.
They made a big dossier andprinted into a book giving
positions of all the candidates,of course leaning toward the
ones that would have beendistressing to me.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
It didn't seem to work.
Speaker 3 (28:02):
It didn't work, and so that's another reason I'm
saying I think the Holy Spiritwas at work and the money did
not matter.
But the money is still going tobe there and they're already
talking.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
So you think we will see some very vocal opposition
to this path of semen?
Oh, it's already started.
Okay, yeah, it's alreadystarted.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
The money issue is a big matter because the Vatican
does have a debt right.
Speaker 3 (28:27):
I mean they're looking for funds.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
So there is always that danger that you know money
talks and that can influencepeople.
Speaker 3 (28:34):
It has influenced Catholic universities, it's
influenced Catholic think tanks.
I mean there's a whole networkof not just right-leaning but
extremely right-leaning thingsthat are incredibly well-funded.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
Maybe a topic for another podcast on another day,
it sounds like, but it is.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
some of the commentators have noted that he
does that Pope Leo does havedoes seem to have really good
organization business skills.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
I've heard that as well.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
And that he may be able to, you know, be a stricter
administrator than some of themore recent popes, and so maybe
he can get the financial housein order and, you know, make
things work a little bit moreefficiently.
You know, he's an American,after all.
He has that can-do attitude,there you go.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
Well, let's close with this and, rita, we should
start with you, because I thinkit's possible that you knew
Peter better than us.
What do you think Peter wouldbe thinking now with an American
pope, and this American Pope inparticular?
Speaker 3 (29:32):
People always ask me the question what would Peter
think?
And I never really know exactlywhat he would think.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
Yeah, it's not really fair.
Speaker 3 (29:39):
Because it would always be funny and it would
always be something I hadn'tthought of.
So I just can't do anythingwith that question.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
You know what?
I've never heard anyone put itthat way, but that's exactly how
I felt with Peter.
My whole relationship too.
Peter was very much a mentor tome and I'd go in there and ask
him a question about somethingand I would never get an answer.
That I thought was juststraightforward answering my
question.
Speaker 3 (30:03):
Well, he would want you to think about it, but he
would already be four or fivesteps past where I could be for
different reasons, I won't sayall of them.
But it would always be funny,so you would be drawn into
thinking about it.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
Yeah, that's a good point.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
Yeah, One thing I was thinking of.
I know that Peter had writtenon Orestes Brownson.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
Let me go ahead and interrupt you very quickly.
For those of you who don't knowwho we're talking about, peter.
Interestingly enough, hismiddle name is Augustine, so
Peter Augustine Lawler just anationally and internationally
renowned political philosopher,but very much grounded in
Catholic tradition, and so hiswritings even though rarely did
they come out and talk aboutCatholic doctrines or anything
(30:46):
like that, they were alwaysCatholic-informed.
Is that a fair representationof his political philosophy?
Speaker 2 (30:52):
Yeah, and that's the thing it was understated.
But you don't have to— andmore—.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
You can be profoundly influenced by Catholicism and
not sort of wear it on yoursleeve and say— Right, it comes
out in ways, in subtle ways, butvery meaningful ways, and once
you see it— I remember the firsttime that I—I remember the
first time I realized it when Iwas reading something of his and
I said, oh, this is verytraditional Catholic doctrine
here.
And then, once you see iteverywhere in his writings again
(31:19):
for our audience probably moreknown in conservative circles
philosophically speaking, butstill very respected across the
spectrum I would say he's stillquoted by major columns like
David Brooks.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
About a month ago, peter's name appeared in one of
the New York Times op-edarticles that Brooks writes yes.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
But I interrupted what you were going to say just
to get that context.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
One of Peter's interests was, I guess, the 19th
century American Catholicthinker, rusty Brownson, and the
reason why that just came up isbecause Leo XIII was involved
in.
He had written somethingagainst the heresy of
Americanism where there was asense that the American Catholic
Church had become tooindividualistic and perhaps not,
you know, sort of breaking awayfrom traditional Catholicism.
(32:04):
Brownson was involved in thatdebate that was going on.
I don't know that much about it, but I just thought that now
that we have another Pope, leo,was that also a you know?
Is that also a message to theAmerican church that he chose
Leo?
And so I think that perhapsPeter's writings dealing with
(32:25):
Brownson and this issue aboutAmericanism might shed some
interesting insights, might seea resurgence, perhaps, of
incorporating Peter's writings.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
I think so, wow.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
I mean Leo, I was just doing briefly.
Leo XIII is really a majorfigure in modern Catholicism and
I'm not saying that justbecause our Pope is Leo now.
That therefore he's you knoweverything that Leo XIII did.
Leo XIV is continuing.
But it's just interesting thatyou have Pope Leo XIII very
(32:59):
influenced, very interested inwhat's happening in the American
church, and then of course nowI assume Leo XIV as an American
has a special interest in what'shappening in the American
church as well.
Leo XIII was, as you mentionedearlier, a forceful advocate for
labor unions, for workers'rights, for the poor people, so
(33:21):
we may see a continuity of that.
Leo XIII was also heavilyinterested in the intellectual
life of the church and education.
He was involved.
He was, I think, the founder ofthe Pontifical University in
America, catholic University ofAmerica, and Leo XIII was also
instrumental in the revival ofThomism, that is to say the
philosophy and thought of StThomas Aquinas, in modern
(33:44):
Catholic thought.
So you also wonder, does thathave sort of any?
Does that signify anything forLeo XIV's intellectual interests
as well?
That you know.
Maybe I'm pushing it too far.
Speaker 3 (33:58):
I think it's on target.
I did want to go back to Peterfor a minute.
His middle name, of course, wasAugustine.
His dad and his uncle wereimportant Catholic scholars.
His uncle was a priest, atheologian, In fact.
He was part of theInternational Pontifical
Institute.
Speaker 1 (34:15):
Was his dad a priest?
His dad no.
Speaker 3 (34:19):
His dad, no, but his dad, who actually worked for the
CIA.
He also was a scholar, atranslator of the ancient
Christian fathers, and he hadjust finished translating
Augustine's sermons when myhusband was born, hence the name
.
So the name goes back to theorder.
Speaker 2 (34:41):
Yes, yes very cool, because the other thought that
came to mind is he's now Leo XIV, is now the second most famous
Augustinian.
You know your guy is the first,my guy Not Wesley.
Before that, martin Luther wasan Augustinian friar Right.
Speaker 3 (35:01):
So I'm not saying that that's funny, I'm just
saying that.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
Protestantism came out of the Augustinian order.
Not too often do people fromthe Wesleyan tradition think of
Luther as my guy.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
Could there be a?
Speaker 1 (35:12):
Wesley.
Speaker 3 (35:13):
It makes perfect sense.
It makes perfect sense.
Oh, and this is important, Ithink one of the first things
that he will choose to do and itwill be by the end of this
month is go to Turkey for the17th anniversary of the Council
of Nicaea.
Speaker 2 (35:26):
Nicaea, oh yes.
Speaker 3 (35:28):
Once again, we're talking about globalism and
unity.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
I know that we talked about in the last podcast about
the Patriarch of Constantinople, bartholomew.
Assuming that Leo andBartholomew will meet will
jointly commemorate the 1700thanniversary and I know
Bartholomew had a very closerelationship with Pope Francis
and the hope is thatrelationship will continue now
with.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
Leo, too, we will mark that on the calendar.
Oh, it's big, I'm serious.
We will mark that on thecalendar for a Church Potluck
episode for sure.
Speaker 2 (35:59):
Oh, I'm ready.
I've already given it.
In March I gave a talk on the1700th anniversary.
Speaker 1 (36:04):
We're just going to hand the microphone over to Dr
Papazian on those days.
Speaker 3 (36:11):
I don't even have to do any research, just ask me.
Whatever you want, we'll let itin ahead of time.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
That's right.
That's right, great.
Now, as promised, we have abonus interview or conversation
with Brett Adams, and he was notable to be with us here on the
panel, but we still wanted todefinitely talk to him, and so
here's our conversation withBrett.
All right, and it's my pleasureand honor to introduce yet
another guest, and that guestwould be Brett Adams.
(36:36):
Yeah, and Brett is coming to usremotely.
And, brett, I'm sorry that Ididn't make it possible for you
to be part of the actualconversation here and I'm.
We had some technicaldifficulties, and by technical
difficulties I mean I didn'tknow how to use my board
correctly.
Speaker 4 (36:55):
No problems, I'm just excited to be on.
Speaker 1 (36:56):
We have you on in part because I know you're a
very devout Catholic and want tohear a little bit about that
here in a second.
But you have just been such anamazing supporter and encourager
throughout all this initialproof-of-concept stage of Church
Potluck and so just alwaysthankful for your encouragement,
and so I said, when theopportunity arises, we need to
get him on the podcast, and sucha day has arrived.
Speaker 4 (37:22):
Yes, it took the death of a pope and the election
, but no, I love the podcast, Ilove the idea of the podcast.
So I mean, from day one, I'velistened intently and I'm always
willing to help however I canto assist in making it as
popular as I can.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
That is so nice of you, and Dr Papese and I were
laughing that sometimes I woulddrop an hour-long podcast and
about an hour and 15 minuteslater there'd be a little post
commenting on it and giving yourencouragement, and so that was
always very nice of you.
But tell us a little bit aboutyourself.
Tell us start off with yourBarry connection here, because
you know many of the people whoare on the podcast often.
Speaker 4 (37:55):
Yes, it was.
So I grew up about five minutesdown the road from Berry
College.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
I didn't know that.
Speaker 4 (38:09):
Yep had to drive past it every morning to get to
school and grew up, mythen-girlfriend went to Berry
College.
I was like I might as wellfollow her.
We both went to Berry College.
In fact, we got married atFrost Chapel and studied
religion and philosophy with DrPapazian.
Speaker 1 (38:21):
And you also had.
We talked about Dr Lawler for alittle while.
You have courses with Dr Lawleras well.
Speaker 4 (38:26):
Oh yes, oh yes.
I didn't have a ton of them,but I was able to take two
philosophy courses with him.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
Wonderful.
And you are now a lawyer, yes,so putting that Barry education
to good use.
I tried.
Speaker 4 (38:41):
You know I'm a lawyer so it's up for debate about how
successful that was.
But yeah, I went to GeorgiaState Law and after that got a
job as a prosecutor over inwhere I live now over in Coweta
in Noonan, and continue to usemy religion philosophy degree
from Barry to good use.
I'm in the process of gettingmy master's in theology with a
(39:03):
concentration on dogmatictheology.
Speaker 1 (39:07):
Wonderful, I did not know that.
Congratulations.
Speaker 4 (39:10):
Thank you, Thank you, and I continue to teach at my
local parish and you know veryinstilled in me very much the
head, heart and hands and Icontinue to try to practice that
philosophy everywhere.
Speaker 1 (39:22):
I go.
That is wonderful and itcertainly comes over your
thoughtfulness and in fact Ihave this correct on that.
You are someone who convertedto Catholicism as a young adult.
Is that correct?
Speaker 4 (39:33):
Yes, someone who converted to Catholicism as a
young adult.
Is that correct?
Yes, I met my now wife at theGovernor's Honors Program when
we were both in high school andwe started dating, and it was
only later that I found out shewas Catholic and at the time I
thought I need to make sure Isave her soul from eternal
(39:55):
damnation.
The problem was that, yeah, Imean it was out of love.
But the problem was she wasn'tquite sure the reasons behind
what she believed.
And so I decided I'll go toRCIA, which is the Rite of
Christian Initiation for Adults,which kind of teaches adults
what Catholics believe.
So I decided I'll go there,find out what they believe, what
she believes, so I can converther and save her.
And three years later I convertto the Catholic faith.
(40:19):
She's never let me forget thatshe was right, I was wrong.
Speaker 1 (40:23):
The first of many probably.
Speaker 4 (40:25):
Yes, in fact, I converted my freshman year at
Berry College.
Speaker 1 (40:28):
Well, how about that?
That sounds like anotherpodcast for another time, and I
want to hear more about that forsure.
But let's go ahead and turn ourattention to the selection of a
new pope, and I presume thatyou are surprised that it is an
American pope.
Speaker 4 (40:43):
Very much.
I mean, especially after theCold War.
They were seeing this idea thatas America became more and more
of a global power, americabecame more and more of a global
power.
No-transcript the provost was alittle bit on some people's
(41:11):
radar, but as kind of a darkhorse candidate.
Speaker 1 (41:16):
I mentioned earlier that I think that he had about a
2% chance of winning, accordingto the odds makers at various
booking agencies.
Tell me whether you think thepoint I made is accurate.
I mentioned that he wasattractive as a pope, even
though he was from a power, asyou mentioned, in part because
(41:36):
he didn't use that power.
He chose to go to Peru, hechose to live simply.
He almost modeled for those ofus who live in powerful places
ways of using that power forgood in humble ways.
Do you think that made him amore attractive candidate?
Speaker 4 (41:50):
I think so.
I think him coming from asuperpower like America and
having a Western idea ofgovernance helps in what the
cardinals were looking for.
But then also that missionaryspirit of spending so much of
his time as a clergyman in Peruand in Latin America really
(42:11):
assisted, and by everything I'veheard, very humble person.
When the Pope wanted to appointhim to, for example, the
Congregation for Bishops, whichis the head guy who helps tell
the Pope hey, here's someonethat you should appoint as a
bishop.
He first told the Pope I'll dowhatever you tell me.
If you decide to make thisappointment, I'm happy to do it,
(42:33):
but ultimately you make aprayerful decision about it.
And so the pope actually spenta little bit of time in prayer
about it and then decided toappoint him.
Speaker 1 (42:43):
That sounds wonderful .
I don't want to label you, butfrom the little bit I know of
your faith, you seem like youare very much a traditionalist.
Would that be a good, faircharacterization of your faith?
Speaker 4 (42:55):
It's hard when it comes to Catholicism, because
what is a traditionalist?
I don't attend, for example,mass that tends to do the
traditional Latin Mass, theVitis Ordo.
I go to Mass in the vernacular,but I'm orthodox, if that's the
way you take it.
Vernacular but I'm, you know,I'm Orthodox, if that's the way
(43:15):
you take it.
You know some of the problem.
When people talk about liberalor conservative in Catholicism
especially, is what do you meanby that?
Speaker 1 (43:20):
Do you mean?
Speaker 4 (43:21):
liberal, as in?
You know the person is for theordination of women, or do you
mean liberal, as in?
They push for going out andfeeding the hungry and clothing
the naked and giving home to thehomeless you homeless.
I would put myself more in themoderate camp of someone, for
example, that I appreciate thevarious rights in the church,
(43:44):
including the older right, and Ihope people are able to
practice that, but at the sametime I myself prefer more of a
wider church.
How can we bring people in?
Not necessarily.
How can we restrict people andkeep them out?
Speaker 1 (44:03):
Great, and I bring that up just to get a sense of
someone from your perspective,now that you've articulated it
so nicely.
What is your reaction, not tothe American part, but just to
Pope Leo XIV, just what you knowof him?
Speaker 4 (44:17):
When he first came on , he's very much in the mold of
Francis and of course this is Imean, pope Francis appointed so
many of the current cardinals.
This was going to be a pope whowas in the mold of Francis.
I think the question becomes isit Francis 2.0 or is it
something like Francis 1.5,right, and when he first came
(44:41):
out, I thought that this wasgoing to essentially just
continue to be a lockstep withPope Francis.
But a lot of things that he'sdone in just the last 24 hours
have indicated that, while hemight be continuing the
theological thought of PopeFrancis, he's going to have a
much different governing styleand, it appears, a much
(45:04):
different emphasis.
I mean, you know, the choice ofLeo as his regnal name stunning
, not something that I wouldhave thought that someone
completely in the mold of PopeFrancis would have chosen.
And then I mean I don't know ifanyone on the panel was able to
hear his homily today that hedid with the cardinals at his
(45:26):
first mass as pope, but it wasvery.
It was not a homily one wouldhave expected from Pope Francis.
Speaker 1 (45:34):
In what way?
Speaker 4 (45:35):
You know Pope Francis , a lot of his homilies,
especially in the last few years, have almost all when he's done
a homily.
A lot of times at Mass he wouldpreside but he wouldn't
actively participate, if youwill, as the main celebrant,
(45:56):
main celebration.
But in addition, a lot ofhomilies talked about a synodal
church walking together.
But Pope Leo's homily was veryChristocentric.
He talked about in the homilyneeding to walk together, but
needing to walk together asfriends of Christ, needing to
walk together as followers ofJesus.
In fact he said at one point hetalked about Jesus is the
(46:18):
Christ, jesus is the son of theliving father, he's the one
savior who alone reveals theface of the father.
And he talked about the atheismwe see today.
And Pope Francis didn't speak alot about atheism.
But Pope Leo in his homilytalked about atheism and said
that there are essentially twosides of one coin.
You have the world who rejectsJesus, and then you have those
(46:41):
who see him as just a man andjust another person.
You know, maybe a great personbut just another person, and
compare them as essentially thesame thing.
It's essentially two sides ofthe atheistic coin and we didn't
(47:02):
really see that emphasis onkind of that missionary spirit
as under Pope Francis, and so Ithink Leo might be setting
himself up as a Pope Francis, inthe same kind of mold as Pope
Francis, but with an emphasis onnot just going to the margins,
which was Pope Francis' emphasis, but going to all peoples, the
margins, the center, pretty muchtrying to bring Jesus to
(47:27):
everybody in sharing the gospel.
Speaker 1 (47:30):
And really emphasizing Jesus in the process
, not just the ministering topeople and meeting their needs
physically, as you minister tothe poor, for example, but
really, like you said, veryChrist-centric, which I assume
you take as a good thing.
Speaker 4 (47:45):
Yes, and you just put it in a much better way than I
did yeah, very Christocentric,and I mean that's very much in
the mold of Pope Leo XIII.
Speaker 1 (47:54):
Wonderful.
I appreciate that and I thoughtyou did a nice job summarizing
many of the things that wetalked about and you put them in
a very sharp perspective, whichI appreciate Is there anything
else that we haven't talkedabout, other than your dad jokes
that we needed.
Speaker 4 (48:10):
I am a little upset, to be honest.
I was hoping for CarnalPizzabala, so I could just
continue with these great pizzajokes, and I don't know how I'm
going to come up with them now.
With Leo, that's going to be alot harder.
Speaker 1 (48:20):
You know, the cardinals could have been more
attentive to the familiesworldwide if they had elected
Cardinal Pizzabala.
There would have been no end toconstantly talking about the
pope.
I guess they wouldn't refer tohim as Pope Pizzaballo, though,
would be the problem.
Speaker 4 (48:35):
Yeah, I guess that's fair.
That's fair.
They really did not take intoaccount my needs to make dad
jokes when they made thedecision.
Not a perfect choice, I guess,but I mean, I think we Catholics
owe fidelity to the pope.
Fidelity to the Pope, and theway I always take that is we
need to have charity, not justin what everyone says, but also
(48:59):
we need to have charity with aPope that, regardless of whether
you agreed with Francis ordidn't agree with Francis, allow
Pope Leo the time andopportunity to be his own Pope,
to establish his own preference,his own way of governance and
his own mission.
And so I'm excited.
(49:20):
Leo XIII was an interesting pope, and Pius and Leo were the two
names I was hoping the next popewould choose.
Oh, wow and yeah, and so I gotthe Leo.
(49:47):
And so I'm excited to see thatmore traditionalist Catholics
and their loss of largely theirloss of how they celebrate mass,
dealing with the governanceissues of trying to both keep
bishops in line but give themthe respect and freedom due to
their office, and looking at aVatican that I mean, quite
frankly, is dealing with a lotof financial problems coming up,
(50:10):
and I think what they werelooking for is an American Pope
who could bring that moreWestern style of governance to
the Vatican, who could continuein many of the ideas of Pope
Francis, but potentially with alittle bit more clarity.
Which Pope Leo I mean?
(50:32):
He's a Canaan lawyer and welawyers are known for anything
it's being specific and beingexact.
So I think we're going to seemany of the same I'm trying to
think of the word many of thesame preferences and emphasis of
Pope Francis, but in adifferent way and in a different
(50:52):
manner and in a different stylethat hopefully brings more
light and less darkness, moreclarity and less confusion, and
I think that's really what theywere looking for, in that happy
balance with Pope Leo.
So I'm excited Great firsthomily, great Irby at Orby
(51:12):
address and I'm excited to seewhere we go from here.
Speaker 1 (51:16):
That's great.
Thank you so much, and with youdoing those closing remarks, I
was thinking how people oftencomment just all the many varied
skills a pastor even a localparish pastor needs to have to
lead a small congregation, needsto have to lead a small
congregation, and I'm justthinking how much more do you
(51:37):
have to multiply that by inorder to lead a global church of
1.4 billion people?
It's just amazing.
And so it sounds like he checksoff many of the boxes, though.
Speaker 4 (51:44):
Yep, yep, and I mean I'm praying for him and I'm very
hopeful, I'm very excited and Ithink that the Cardinals, they
didn't make a quick choice, butthey also didn't take extremely
long.
Speaker 1 (51:59):
You know what I was going to wrap this up, but very
quickly.
I actually was shocked thatsomeone who is not a front
runner was able to be elected onthe second day.
I would have thought thatsomeone who was, so you know,
outside of the top choices, thatit would have taken a while to
reach consensus on such acandidate contingent, people who
(52:20):
wanted Tagli but maybe knew thedifficulties of trying to get
him elected, and also peopleconcerned about his government
(52:43):
style.
Speaker 4 (52:43):
I mean that's been some of the criticism and so
there was talk going into theconclave that Prevost might be a
good alternate to Tagli, butstill kind of in that mold of
Pope Francis.
And I mean we're going to findout more in the coming weeks as
Cardinals talk about you know,here were the thoughts, you know
in the conclave, here were thediscussions in the conclave.
(53:03):
We'll know a little bit moreabout what they were thinking.
But I mean Prevost was on thelist of possible contenders for
every single Vaticanista that Iread.
So he wasn't always on the listfor like the New York Times or
anything, but the people reallyin the know kept talking about
him as a possible dark horsecandidate that if a quick
(53:27):
consensus was not made onParolin or on Tagli, that he
might be the next choice.
Speaker 1 (53:35):
Very interesting.
Speaker 4 (53:36):
Yeah, and there's some evidence to indicate as
well that the more conservativewing and again I criticized at
the beginning talking aboutconservatives and liberals- I
understand.
But the more conservative wing.
There's evidence that the moreconservative wing actually
started to potentially rallyaround Prevost wing, actually
start to potentially rallyaround Prevost and that might
(53:57):
have helped him, along with someof the Tagliabokes, to get over
that hump of 89.
Speaker 1 (54:00):
Wonderful Brett, thank you again so much and I am
sure that we will find a waydown the road to get you back on
Church Potluck again, but yourmaiden voyage was wonderful and
I am greatly appreciative.
Speaker 4 (54:10):
Thank you, Dr McConkie, and I'm praying for
you and I really appreciate thisopportunity.
Speaker 1 (54:15):
Thank you very much, and by now it ought to just be
Dale, don't you think?
Speaker 4 (54:19):
No, okay, it's going to be Dr McConkie or Chaplain
McConkie, and I don't think it'sever going to be Dale.
I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (54:26):
Okay, attorney Adams Esquire, all right, adams
Esquire, all right.
Good talking with you and Iagain thanks a lot.
I want to thank you all forcoming out on very short notice.
I contacted both of youyesterday and said, hey, can you
get together for a podcast?
And you said yes, and I am verygrateful for that and I for
very little rehearsal.
I thought it went well.
So thank you very much, thankyou.
(54:47):
Thank you, yeah, and I want tothank our guests today, but I
also want to thank our audiencefor coming out and listening to
yet another episode of ChurchPotluck this week.
I'm trying to find my noteshere.
We're just going to keep thatall in there.
So thank you all for listening.
(55:09):
I hope we have provided youwith some food for thought and
something to chew on.
And, rita, don't let me forgetto get you a mug when we're done
with this for helping out here.
You need a mug and we mighthave a little conversation
afterwards, but probably alittle shorter than typical, but
we might have some leftoversafterward.
But we appreciate your supportand, as part of that support,
please consider ranking us,reviewing us or whatever you do
on your podcast home base.
(55:30):
But until we gather around thetable next time.
This has been Church Potluck,and thank you for listening.
I want to listen to this again.
I think it is Leo making thattoy night.
(55:53):
He was an American Pope.
Oh yeah, alright, I think it isLeo making that toy night.
He was an American Pope.
And away we go.
This has been a terrible week.
I mean a great week in manyways, but I've been so busy with
other things Like podcasts,Like this.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Yeah, the week started on Monday with that.
I just keep pulling you awayfrom all your responsibilities
At the time we didn't have apope, and now we do.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
And here I'm back with another podcast.
And then yesterday I gave twoseparate Zoom lectures at two
different venues, boththeological, so this has been
Theology Week.
Wow, different venues, boththeological, so this has been
Theology Week.
I've decided to go justcomplete theology now, because
nobody cares about my philosophy, but apparently there's a
following in theology, I'veshifted my area.
I'm coming out now for thefirst time on this podcast.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
You go to where the winds blow right, Call me a
theologian, from now on Allright, all right, and we got a
guest here.
We'll go ahead.
Actually, let's go ahead, andjust to start off with the
introductions, let me start offby saying welcome everyone to
Church Potluck, where we areserving up a smorgasbord of
Christian curiosity.
I'm your host, dale McConkie,sociology professor or should I
(01:17):
say halftime sociology professor, and, for a couple more weeks,
united Methodist pastor, and youknow there are two keys to a
good church potluck Plenty ofvariety and engaging
conversation, and this isexactly what we are trying to do
here on Church Potluck Sittingdown with friends and sharing
our ideas on a variety of topicsfrom a variety of academic
(01:37):
disciplines and a variety ofChristian traditions.
Not too much variety this week,though, it's all been one core
topic, but let's welcome ourguest.
We're going to keep our otherguest a mystery and a surprise
guest over here, because we'vealready been talking about, we
have, as you've already heard,one of our most regular guests.
(01:57):
We have philosopher MichaelPapazian.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Thank you, it's good to be back.
It's been so long.
It's been a while.
Michael Papazian, that's right,thank you, it's good to be back
.
It's good to be back.
It's been so long.
It's been a while, that's good.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
We don't do a podcast for the entire semester,
basically, and then all of asudden we just this is the week,
right, that's what it is.
I think.
Isn't that how a lot ofpodcasts are?
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Like they do all the recording shows.
I guess I'll have to thinkabout that in the future, but
that's what happens when you godown to halftime All of a sudden
you have all this time that youcan do.
But I'm very excited to welcomeour other guest, who thus far
has been very quiet.
But I want to welcome for thefirst time to the podcast Rita
Lawler.
Yay, Rita, tell us somethingabout yourselves and then about
(02:47):
yourself, Okay.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
I don't know why I made you plural.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
There You're different personalities.
You can talk about each one, Ithink there are at least three
of me Of your many selves right.
Speaker 3 (02:58):
I do have different life stages.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
There you go.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
Currently I am an auditor of many courses at Berry
College, all in the religionand philosophy department.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Yes, you are around Evans Hall more than some
professors are.
Speaker 3 (03:12):
Possibly, but to my delight.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
That's excellent.
Speaker 3 (03:16):
Also, this is May and it's eight years since the
death of my husband, PeterLawler, so if you wanted a
Catholic commentary today, hiswould probably be much, much
better than mine.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Kind of appropriate.
We've got an empty seat rightthere to think about In fact,
I've got that in my notes lateron to reflect on what Peter
might think about all this andyou are actually a longtime
employee at Mercy Senior Careright.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
I was a director of Mercy Care from.
So more than an employeedirector over the entire thing
For about 22 years.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
But I've been retired for 10 years, Dale.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
Is that something?
Speaker 3 (03:50):
It is something and it's a good place to be.
Good, because it gives me theluxury of being here.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
Excellent, and that's a good point.
So thank you so much, rita.
We're glad to have you here.
We have another guest, brettAdams, who is supposed to join
our panel today remotely, but Ihad some technical difficulties
and so we're going to talk toBrett a little bit later and
then edit him into the podcastat the end.
But we are very grateful forBrett to be on the podcast, so
(04:17):
let's give him a round ofapplause now for that and let's
go ahead and move on.
We already gave a hint of whatwe're talking about today, and I
don't know if anyone else isgoing to enjoy this, and our
notes are very scattered todayor my notes are very scattered
today, in part because it's suchshort notice, but also because
I spent all my time doing this.
(04:38):
Oh yeah, all right, think it isLeo.
He was an American Pope, isthat alright, it's fine.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
How long did it take you to do that, leo?
Speaker 1 (04:57):
I'm not getting any reaction here.
Now I'm feeling a littlesheepish about this.
It's fine, alright.
Yes, we have a new Pope, anAmerican Pope, leo XIV, formerly
Cardinal Robert Prevost.
I'm not sure if I'm pronouncingthat right Formerly, just
(05:17):
Father Bob is what he was called.
What does this mean for Americaand what does it mean for
American Christianity andAmerican Catholicism, and what
does it mean for Catholicism asa whole and for Christianity in
general and just for the wholeglobal dynamics of the world?
We can get as broad as we want,but just what are the
implications of all of this?
And we have our guests, aswe've already introduced, to
(05:39):
come and talk about this.
And, Rita, you mentioned yourrelationship, your long time.
How long were you married toPeter?
38 years 38 years, how aboutthat?
But you also now have been apracticing Catholic for a very
long time, and so just to openit up.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
I'll start with that.
Actually, I haven't been apracticing Catholic for a very
long time.
Oh, sorry about that, I've beenon the edges of Catholicism
since I was about 18 years oldand that was through reading and
through education and throughfriendships and proximity to my
husband.
Employment with the Sisters ofMercy Always been really close,
(06:16):
but it was really the advent ofPope Francis that helped me
cross the line.
Is that right?
I attended St Mary's since 1979, but I couldn't really feel
compelled to come in and gothrough all that took until we
had the voice of Pope Francis.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
How about that.
That's great, so feel free to.
We reflected on Pope Francis inthe last episode, but if
there's ever anything you wantto say about that, feel free.
So you define yourself much asMichael has in terms of being
Catholic adjacent for much ofyour life.
Speaker 3 (06:44):
I was.
It penetrated my life, but Ijust couldn't quite get over
some of the barriers.
And Pope Francis was the voicethat softened all that for me
and compelled me.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
And with the announcement of Pope Leo, what
are your first impressions interms of the continuation of
Francis's tradition, or do yousee some discontinuity?
Or what are your initialimpressions?
Speaker 3 (07:08):
My initial impression is great relief, because there
were some other possibilitiesthat might have been a radical
break from some of hisinitiatives that were the
dearest to me.
And another feeling is just agreat hope, oh great.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
I like that.
I like that very much.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
I think he will continue many of Francis's
innovations and much of hisstyle, but I think he will be
much more deliberate in the wayhe speaks, and evidence of that
is he took one hour to write hisspeech and I listened to it and
you could hear themes, wordcontent all the way peace,
(07:52):
synodality, francis walkingtogether, unity all those themes
that are so important.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
In the commentary I've heard already.
I've heard the word deliberatementioned very often very
intentional about his words andhis actions.
Very much so, michael.
How about you?
What are your initial?
Speaker 2 (08:10):
reactions.
I know I was very surprisedthat an American would become a
pope.
I said that in a previous—.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
Well, I was going to do that.
After your impressions, let'sgo ahead and do that now.
Okay, any thought whatsoeverthat there was going to be an
American pope To be?
Speaker 2 (08:23):
honest.
No, I mean, I saw his namepreviously as a list of
possibilities, but I had kind ofwritten him off because of that
.
And so the thing nowconsidering it, I think that one
reason why maybe he was, or is,the most plausible American
candidate is because he's alsoPeruvian too.
(08:44):
So there's a sense in whichhe's both a North American and a
South American, and I thinkthere are other reasons why-.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
And some people have emphasized that he is an
American Pope, but not just a USPope.
Yes, very much an American Pope, and he does have Peruvian
citizenship now as well.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
He is, yeah, and he has, I think, for has it been
nine, so it's been a while nineyears or something he's at 15.
Yeah that he's been a dualcitizen.
He's the first I just read.
He's the first dual citizenPope.
Oh, really Interesting.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
Interesting.
So what were your initialimpressions?
Oh, before we get onto yourinitial impressions, I actually
look up the odds.
For some reason, I've beenintrigued by the odds making but
his odds were 2%, so 50 to 1.
Someone made a lot of money Ifyou bet on the American Pope,
and so I find it veryinteresting and again I would
(09:34):
love to have a documentaryconclave now to see the dynamics
if this person was going intruly at that level, for the
decision to be made fairlyquickly.
You would think that if someonewho was under the radar was
going to be elected pope, thatit would have been a longer
process to get there, but thedecision was made just about the
same length of time as it tookto elect Francis and Benedict
(09:57):
before him.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
I think they knew what they wanted and I think it
truly was a case of come HolySpirit.
I mean, this was a spiritualprocess, a discernment, and I
think they were looking for aunifier, and I think he will be
that.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
I think that's a great point and I was listening
to something on CNN which wasnormally a political commentary
and it was actually a very goodconversation, because someone
early on mentioned sometimes wedon't want to always put this
through a political lens, right,Much like Conclave does, right,
the movie Conclave very muchputs it through a lens.
But when you mentioned the HolySpirit, the Holy Spirit is
(10:34):
supposed to be guiding theprocess and it was very
interesting to listen to all ofthese commentators all over the
political spectrum kind ofagreeing that yes, we can't
always put religious activitiesthrough political prisms, which
happens too often in our moderncommentary.
So I'm really glad that youalready brought the Holy Spirit
into this.
Speaker 3 (10:51):
I think it was there and I think he has always felt
called by the Holy Spirit and Ithink he is a very holy man.
So that was one of my primaryimpressions of him just looking
at him, his warmth, his smile.
And then, as we began to hearmore about his life, you heard
from his neighbors that he andfrom his brother, that he wanted
(11:14):
to be a priest since the timehe was six, and he did serve
mass, pretend on the ironingboard as the altar.
Now, these are things you couldonly hear from a family member
or somebody that shared yourfirst grade.
He knew, he always knew, he wascalled.
So there are people that are andwe do need to listen to them
(11:34):
and that has happened.
Miraculously, that has happened.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
That's great, great, thank you.
At the same time, you hear allthis emphasis on how he's a holy
person I want to come back tothat but you also hear some just
very earthy things that makehim just like a normal person,
and I think the fact that he'sfrom the United States kind of
adds to that right.
So there's all these thingsthat we're hearing that are just
make him seem so normal inevery day as well.
With that in mind, let's do agame show.
(11:59):
All right, this is the easiestgame show of all time.
I made it nice and easy for ourfirst-timer, rita, okay.
Speaker 3 (12:12):
Now this will be embarrassing if I don't do it.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
You shouldn't say it's easy.
I guess I should.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
I will edit it out if it turns out that you all are
bad at this, but I'm sure,hearing your conversation before
we even got started, I knowyou're all going to knock this
out of the park, literally,because this is called papal
preferences.
So I'm going to give you twothings and you have to tell me
which of the two Father Bob, whois now Pope Leo XIV, prefers.
Okay, so papal preferences whenit comes to baseball does—.
Speaker 3 (12:43):
Oh, it's not baseball .
Speaker 1 (12:45):
Does he prefer the Chicago Cubs or the Chicago
White Sox?
Being a native of Chicago, youwould think it's one of those
too.
Now, I know, you know.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
I now know.
I mean it took a while.
We had to really do somedigging.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
You actually did a little research on this, didn't
you?
As did I?
Yeah, of course.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
All I know is it was announced one way on television
and 20 or 30 minutes later ithad to be retracted, and his
brother made the correction thatis a good enough answer right
there.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
You know the context behind it and the answer.
So, michael, the answer is so,it's the White Sox.
He is a.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
White Sox fan.
At first we thought it was theCubs and apparently the
shameless Cubs actually had Idon't know if it was, I assume
it was real Wrigley Field itsaid.
You know, the Pope is a Cubsfan.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
Up on their big billboard outside their stadium.
They announced unless it wasfake, but I think this was
actual that they put up a sign.
He's a Cubs fan and, like yousaid, rita, that his brother
corrected nope, he's never, everbeen a Cubs fan.
He's always been a White Soxfan.
All right, along the same linewhen it?
Does Pope Leo XIV prefer the StJohn's Red Storm or the
(13:50):
Villanova Wildcats?
Speaker 3 (13:51):
I would say the Villanova, yeah, it's got to be
Villanova.
Not that I've heard of eitherteam before.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Oh, you know, I do not know this for a fact, but
how could it not be theVillanova Wildcats, given that's
where he attended?
He went to Villanova, yeah, andhe majored in mathematics,
apparently, and philosophy andmajored in mathematics,
apparently.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
And philosophy, and philosophy too, oh, that's the
perfect combination, I think,yeah, really, we've had quite a
few students here who Do youneed a napkin?
Speaker 1 (14:17):
You're drooling.
Oh yes, philosophy andmathematics, put them together.
Yeah, it's the perfect combo.
He's not really drooling, thatwas a joke.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
Humanities and science, and they share a lot of
commonalities going back toPythagoras.
Yeah, so he chose well in termsof his majors, and I mean I
have some connections withVillanova, I'm very happy you do
too, actually.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
I was going to say I heard you bragging about your
Villanova connections.
We were playing six degrees ofPope Leo XIV before, which I
imagine many Americans will bedoing now.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
Right, I just have a lot of friends at Villanova.
I've gone to the PatristicsMedieval Renaissance Conference
in the last three, four.
I forgot how many years I go inOctober for this wonderful
conference.
They have up there of reallynice people.
It's an Augustinian universityand of course Pope Leo is an
Augustinian I think the firstmember of the Augustinian.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
Order.
So we had our first Jesuit withPope Francis and now our first
Augustinian with Pope Leo, andyou have all those credentials
with Villanova.
But did you have a daughter whoattended Villanova?
See, that's why I said I knewyou had a connection too.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
And so yeah, we both— .
Speaker 1 (15:23):
Oh Rita, you're looking like you did not know
that.
I didn't know the sports teamsand I don't know didn't know the
sports teams and I don't knowwhat was her degree.
Kristen went to Villanova for ayear and she was studying both
psychology and education, butthat was also, unfortunately,
the year where Ingrid's cancercame back is terminal basically
and so Kristen came back andfinished her education at UGA,
(15:43):
had a great experience there aswell, but she enjoyed it.
It ended up only being one year, but she called it her Northern
adventure.
She enjoyed her experience.
That's a whole otherconversation that it was a
different culture, but it wasn'tthat based really on the
religion, just sort of there wasa bit of a social class
difference up there for her.
So anyway, she had a very goodtime up there, so anyway.
So you were right about that,all right.
(16:05):
So when it comes to cooking,does Popolio prefer cooking
Italian pizza or Peruvianstir-fry?
Speaker 3 (16:13):
I heard Italian pizza .
Speaker 1 (16:16):
There you go, you got it.
You got it.
Supposedly he was very wellknown for, since he studied some
in Italy, he picked up pizzacooking there.
Yeah, I didn't know that, youdidn't know that one.
No, so really got it for you.
No, so really got it for you.
And then so the final questionhere, when it comes to vestments
, when it comes to the regaliathat is worn by the Pope, is he
(16:37):
choosing the simple white robe,like Pope Francis did, or is he
opting for the complete papalvestments with the red mazetic
and cape and all the fanciness?
Speaker 2 (16:47):
See, I know he wore that the fancier one.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
He wore the Mufata, but I don't think he wore the
whole thing, so he sort of didthe middle.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
Half way.
Okay, so he went.
So he was Methodist.
He kind of did a little.
I did it, but not all the wayhe was trying to.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
It was a gesture to both sides.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
Yeah, he did not wear the papal hat.
I noticed he just had a simple.
Speaker 3 (17:06):
He wore the cape and I think that's all.
I didn't look down at the shoes.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
Okay, so my question.
There was a little bitmisleading, so he went the
middle way.
Which Anglicans?
Speaker 3 (17:16):
would appreciate.
He made a gesture which I thinkwas deliberate.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
Yes, that's a really good point.
Go ahead and elaborate on that,Rita, the deliberateness of
that, Because that's one of thethings I want to talk about.
Some of the early symbols,early gestures that he's done.
What are we to make of them?
Is he sending messages?
And so what do you think themessage is of wearing some of
the vestments, but not all?
Speaker 3 (17:35):
I think he wanted to make a gesture of welcome to
people who had missed some ofthe pomp, so he put on some and
he didn't make the reallycharming welcome that Pope
Francis did.
It was more reserved.
It was I'll use the word againdeliberate, where he chose his
(17:57):
words very carefully and usedwords that echoed the
Augustinian rule like walkingtogether, one heart, one mind,
together, unity, pathway to God.
Those things, they were verydeliberate.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
So he reached back to tradition in some ways, but he
also made it clear that therewas some continuity in some of
the reform-mindedness that PopeFrancis was having.
Speaker 3 (18:23):
I mean, those are the foundations of his order, but
they are themes of Francis'spapacy.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
Yeah, great, but they are themes of Francis's papacy.
Yeah, great, michael, we neverreally gave you the real chance
to say what your impressionswere.
What do you think is going onhere?
Speaker 2 (18:38):
It might be too early to tell I mean, you never know
but my first impressions areextremely favorable and I think
it was the right choice.
I think the spirit was involved, as always.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
Here's my biggest takeaway so far in terms of
everyone being so surprised thatit's an American pope, and some
people are politicizing this.
Oh, they've put an Americanpope to be a counter to Donald
Trump, and he's already.
When he was a cardinal, he didpost some things on Twitter that
were directly in opposition tothings that the president or
vice president had said, and sothere was some oh, you know,
(19:16):
I've heard people on the farleft and the far right trying to
politicize this, but I don'tthink that's what's going on.
I don't know what you all feel.
I don't think there was that.
I think that they really didsee him as a unifier, as you've
mentioned, rita, that I thinkthat they really did see him as
a unifier, as you've mentioned,rita, and he is the perfect
example, I think, to be anAmerican pope.
(19:37):
And so here's my big takeaway isthat people were always worried
if you had an American pope.
You know, a pope coming from asuperpower where there's already
all this power and influence,but he's the perfect epitome of
what you're supposed to do withyour power.
Right that he spent 20 years inPeru, that gaining power to
being in a powerful position wasnot his major goal and
(19:59):
aspiration, and so the fact thathe was very missionary-minded
and was willing to live in muchmore humble circumstances.
That is a major message forthose of us who live with
privilege and live in powerfulplaces that there are.
This is a way to emulate and away to serve.
Does that?
Speaker 3 (20:17):
make any sense to you all, Articulate it very well,
but yeah no I think that's right.
There will be politicalramifications, of course, but I
think he was chosen not becausehe was an American, but because
he was a globalist.
You know, he had experience inboth hemispheres and in Europe.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
He had heritage from France, from Italy from Spain
too, and apparently he hasHaitian.
Speaker 3 (20:42):
Yeah, and I heard Creoles too.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (20:46):
And so he brings all those things together life
experience, education, service,and so some here where he was a
high school teacher, very humblework for a long time.
And then in Peru, long time hewas recognized for his talent.
So he was the head of his order, which is not something that's
(21:10):
offered to many, especially atthe young age that he was,
because he's still young.
In fact, startlingly, he'syounger than me and that's sort
of a sign of advancing the firsttime that's happened.
That is the first time that'sever happened to me.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
Is there any other position in the entire world
where 69, you say, and he'syoung, yeah, that's right,
that's it, it's the Pope.
You say, and he's young.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
Yeah, that's right.
That's it.
It's the Pope.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
I think the Pope is.
I think yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:36):
One other reason I'm glad to see him is I always
thought of Pope Francis as theone remaining moral voice in the
world, and when he died Ithought who will take that place
?
And I'm not saying they're notother moral men, women, teachers
, but he had a recognized moralvoice.
That's what I should have said.
So I think the world longs forthat.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
And, like you said, I think he'll be very deliberate
in how he uses that, and I thinkwe also need people who are
very deliberate in how theyenter into the global
conversation of ethics.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
It's incendiary times .
Yes, and I think they werecognizant that it's incendiary
times.
Yes, and I think they werecognizant that it was an
incendiary time and that's whythey wanted a globalist and a
deliberate man.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
Yes, and I found it refreshing that President Trump,
who very often, if anyone hasspoken ill of him, will very
often speak ill of them rightback right and very often
exacerbate of them right backright and very often exacerbate
whatever the tension is.
And, as I mentioned, this Popehas said some things, maybe not
directly about Trump, butcertainly Trump's policies, and
(22:42):
Trump was very gracious in hiscomments and said it was good,
it was great to have an Americanso far, exactly, but it was a
feel-good day all around.
As far as I could tell, withone exception CNN did talk about
, there are people who areconcerned about just the whole
(23:02):
American conflict of the sexualabuse and so questioning whether
Cardinal Prevost was that'swhat I'm looking for deliberate
enough in that and taking andaddressing those issues.
Speaker 3 (23:16):
I've read that, yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
And I'm curious to see if, in the days when the
feel-good moment dies down, ifpeople will be concerned.
He seems to be very much on theside of working people, very
much on the side of immigrantsand migrants.
Taking the name Pope Leo wasvery intentional for that.
Pope Leo XIII was a pope duringthe early stages of the
Industrial Revolution and somuch immigration was going on
(23:42):
and so many people were movingfrom rural to urban areas and
Pope Leo said the CatholicChurch, one of their
responsibilities is to make surethat these people's rights are
protected and their dignity isupheld.
And so I would say that thispope is very intentional for
picking Leo.
And so there's that.
But he seems to be verytraditional when it comes to
(24:02):
most of the issues around sexand gender, and so I wonder if
people will push him on that inany way.
But just as Pope Francisultimately was and there was no
major changes but when it comesto same-sex marriage, ordination
of priests, just all the issuesaround sex and gender, he seems
to be quite traditional on.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
Yeah, I would agree.
So I'm not.
Again, we don't know, but I'mnot expecting any major changes.
I mean, these are issues thatpopes have spoken about, like,
for example, the ordination ofwomen.
It's just ruled out.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
Even as deacons Deacon issue.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
yeah, It'll be interesting to see if that comes
back.
Speaker 3 (24:38):
The deacon issue, I think is still alive.
It was alive when Francis died.
It was a key issue at the Synod.
It was not furthered along atthat point.
But at least it won't be likePope Benedict, where there was
an active war on women,religious and women theologians.
And the first thing after PopeFrancis was elected is he
(24:59):
invited the leadership ofreligious Catholic women to his
office and said what can I do?
And then he said the war isover.
The war is over Because therehave been literally
Inquisition-type things ofpeople like Sister Elizabeth
Johnson.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
So the policies did not change, but the tone and the
conversation changedsignificantly.
Speaker 3 (25:20):
I think some policies did change.
There was openness, there wereappointments, there were the two
different commissions, one in,I think, 2016 and another in
2020 on the ordination of womenDickens.
So the history is there.
What isn't there is theconsensus to move forward on it
just yet.
So I think they're looking foravenues for that.
(25:40):
I think that will go on and theother, I think, will be
continuing conversation FatherJames Martin, who's been, you
know, the key advocate.
Father James Martin, who's been,you know the key advocate
actually spent his synod tabletime with Pope Leo, then
Cardinal, and I think that is aconversation that will continue
and he will continue to have agood ear on that.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
So I think it'll be a matter of nuance, at least for
a while.
Yeah, you mentioned synod, andsynodality is something that the
new pope came out as continuingwhat Francis's vision for a
church that was open to dialogueand not just top-down.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
And elaborate for our audience what you mean by synod
.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
Oh, synod is a word just meaning.
It literally means in Greek youwant the etymology the roads
coming together.
Speaker 3 (26:29):
Right, it's not really.
Oh, you want the real citation,liddell Scott Jones, of the
Greek language, the etymology,the roads coming together.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
Citation that's giving me a headache.
Oh, you want the real citationLiddell Scott Jones of the Greek
language page.
Whatever, yeah, okay, anyway,chicago.
Style.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
That's giving me a headache, but you should love
that word.
You can learn that one.
Speaker 3 (26:47):
Oh no, it's a great word, I mean the.
Greek part we come together, wetalk, we have a meeting.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
It's a great word Synod is essentially— I mean the
Greek part we come together, wetalk, we have a meeting.
It's not just me, the pope,telling you what to do.
I listen to the bishops, youknow, listen to the laity.
It's sort of a more democratic,open process and that Francis
was very firmly in support ofthat vision of church governance
and leadership and Pope Leo hasexpressed that he is in
(27:13):
agreement with his predecessoron that.
Speaker 1 (27:15):
And there was much greater participation by women
in Pope Francis' synod than pastsynods as well.
Am I right about?
Speaker 3 (27:21):
that Well, there hadn't been a past synod, for I
mean, there've been councils,but this was a synod.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
Yeah, gotcha Great.
What haven't we talked aboutthat we need to talk about?
I don't know what haven't wetalked about that we need to
talk about.
I don't know what else is there?
Speaker 3 (27:32):
It was very disconcerting to me that
right-wing organizations thatwere well-funded went to Rome
and were actually lobbying in apolitical style.
Speaker 1 (27:44):
Is that right?
Speaker 3 (27:45):
The cardinals, and there were massive parties in
gardens and people were invited.
They made a big dossier andprinted into a book giving
positions of all the candidates,of course leaning toward the
ones that would have beendistressing to me.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
It didn't seem to work.
Speaker 3 (28:02):
It didn't work, and so that's another reason I'm
saying I think the Holy Spiritwas at work and the money did
not matter.
But the money is still going tobe there and they're already
talking.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
So you think we will see some very vocal opposition
to this path of semen?
Oh, it's already started.
Okay, yeah, it's alreadystarted.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
The money issue is a big matter because the Vatican
does have a debt right.
Speaker 3 (28:27):
I mean they're looking for funds.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
So there is always that danger that you know money
talks and that can influencepeople.
Speaker 3 (28:34):
It has influenced Catholic universities, it's
influenced Catholic think tanks.
I mean there's a whole networkof not just right-leaning but
extremely right-leaning thingsthat are incredibly well-funded.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
Maybe a topic for another podcast on another day,
it sounds like, but it is.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
some of the commentators have noted that he
does that Pope Leo does havedoes seem to have really good
organization business skills.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
I've heard that as well.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
And that he may be able to, you know, be a stricter
administrator than some of themore recent popes, and so maybe
he can get the financial housein order and, you know, make
things work a little bit moreefficiently.
You know, he's an American,after all.
He has that can-do attitude,there you go.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
Well, let's close with this and, rita, we should
start with you, because I thinkit's possible that you knew
Peter better than us.
What do you think Peter wouldbe thinking now with an American
pope, and this American Pope inparticular?
Speaker 3 (29:32):
People always ask me the question what would Peter
think?
And I never really know exactlywhat he would think.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
Yeah, it's not really fair.
Speaker 3 (29:39):
Because it would always be funny and it would
always be something I hadn'tthought of.
So I just can't do anythingwith that question.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
You know what?
I've never heard anyone put itthat way, but that's exactly how
I felt with Peter.
My whole relationship too.
Peter was very much a mentor tome and I'd go in there and ask
him a question about somethingand I would never get an answer.
That I thought was juststraightforward answering my
question.
Speaker 3 (30:03):
Well, he would want you to think about it, but he
would already be four or fivesteps past where I could be for
different reasons, I won't sayall of them.
But it would always be funny,so you would be drawn into
thinking about it.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
Yeah, that's a good point.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
Yeah, One thing I was thinking of.
I know that Peter had writtenon Orestes Brownson.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
Let me go ahead and interrupt you very quickly.
For those of you who don't knowwho we're talking about, peter.
Interestingly enough, hismiddle name is Augustine, so
Peter Augustine Lawler just anationally and internationally
renowned political philosopher,but very much grounded in
Catholic tradition, and so hiswritings even though rarely did
they come out and talk aboutCatholic doctrines or anything
(30:46):
like that, they were alwaysCatholic-informed.
Is that a fair representationof his political philosophy?
Speaker 2 (30:52):
Yeah, and that's the thing it was understated.
But you don't have to— andmore—.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
You can be profoundly influenced by Catholicism and
not sort of wear it on yoursleeve and say— Right, it comes
out in ways, in subtle ways, butvery meaningful ways, and once
you see it— I remember the firsttime that I—I remember the
first time I realized it when Iwas reading something of his and
I said, oh, this is verytraditional Catholic doctrine
here.
And then, once you see iteverywhere in his writings again
(31:19):
for our audience probably moreknown in conservative circles
philosophically speaking, butstill very respected across the
spectrum I would say he's stillquoted by major columns like
David Brooks.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
About a month ago, peter's name appeared in one of
the New York Times op-edarticles that Brooks writes yes.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
But I interrupted what you were going to say just
to get that context.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
One of Peter's interests was, I guess, the 19th
century American Catholicthinker, rusty Brownson, and the
reason why that just came up isbecause Leo XIII was involved
in.
He had written somethingagainst the heresy of
Americanism where there was asense that the American Catholic
Church had become tooindividualistic and perhaps not,
you know, sort of breaking awayfrom traditional Catholicism.
(32:04):
Brownson was involved in thatdebate that was going on.
I don't know that much about it, but I just thought that now
that we have another Pope, leo,was that also a you know?
Is that also a message to theAmerican church that he chose
Leo?
And so I think that perhapsPeter's writings dealing with
(32:25):
Brownson and this issue aboutAmericanism might shed some
interesting insights, might seea resurgence, perhaps, of
incorporating Peter's writings.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
I think so, wow.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
I mean Leo, I was just doing briefly.
Leo XIII is really a majorfigure in modern Catholicism and
I'm not saying that justbecause our Pope is Leo now.
That therefore he's you knoweverything that Leo XIII did.
Leo XIV is continuing.
But it's just interesting thatyou have Pope Leo XIII very
(32:59):
influenced, very interested inwhat's happening in the American
church, and then of course nowI assume Leo XIV as an American
has a special interest in what'shappening in the American
church as well.
Leo XIII was, as you mentionedearlier, a forceful advocate for
labor unions, for workers'rights, for the poor people, so
(33:21):
we may see a continuity of that.
Leo XIII was also heavilyinterested in the intellectual
life of the church and education.
He was involved.
He was, I think, the founder ofthe Pontifical University in
America, catholic University ofAmerica, and Leo XIII was also
instrumental in the revival ofThomism, that is to say the
philosophy and thought of StThomas Aquinas, in modern
(33:44):
Catholic thought.
So you also wonder, does thathave sort of any?
Does that signify anything forLeo XIV's intellectual interests
as well?
That you know.
Maybe I'm pushing it too far.
Speaker 3 (33:58):
I think it's on target.
I did want to go back to Peterfor a minute.
His middle name, of course, wasAugustine.
His dad and his uncle wereimportant Catholic scholars.
His uncle was a priest, atheologian, In fact.
He was part of theInternational Pontifical
Institute.
Speaker 1 (34:15):
Was his dad a priest?
His dad no.
Speaker 3 (34:19):
His dad, no, but his dad, who actually worked for the
CIA.
He also was a scholar, atranslator of the ancient
Christian fathers, and he hadjust finished translating
Augustine's sermons when myhusband was born, hence the name
.
So the name goes back to theorder.
Speaker 2 (34:41):
Yes, yes very cool, because the other thought that
came to mind is he's now Leo XIV, is now the second most famous
Augustinian.
You know your guy is the first,my guy Not Wesley.
Before that, martin Luther wasan Augustinian friar Right.
Speaker 3 (35:01):
So I'm not saying that that's funny, I'm just
saying that.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
Protestantism came out of the Augustinian order.
Not too often do people fromthe Wesleyan tradition think of
Luther as my guy.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
Could there be a?
Speaker 1 (35:12):
Wesley.
Speaker 3 (35:13):
It makes perfect sense.
It makes perfect sense.
Oh, and this is important, Ithink one of the first things
that he will choose to do and itwill be by the end of this
month is go to Turkey for the17th anniversary of the Council
of Nicaea.
Speaker 2 (35:26):
Nicaea, oh yes.
Speaker 3 (35:28):
Once again, we're talking about globalism and
unity.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
I know that we talked about in the last podcast about
the Patriarch of Constantinople, bartholomew.
Assuming that Leo andBartholomew will meet will
jointly commemorate the 1700thanniversary and I know
Bartholomew had a very closerelationship with Pope Francis
and the hope is thatrelationship will continue now
with.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
Leo, too, we will mark that on the calendar.
Oh, it's big, I'm serious.
We will mark that on thecalendar for a Church Potluck
episode for sure.
Speaker 2 (35:59):
Oh, I'm ready.
I've already given it.
In March I gave a talk on the1700th anniversary.
Speaker 1 (36:04):
We're just going to hand the microphone over to Dr
Papazian on those days.
Speaker 3 (36:11):
I don't even have to do any research, just ask me.
Whatever you want, we'll let itin ahead of time.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
That's right.
That's right, great.
Now, as promised, we have abonus interview or conversation
with Brett Adams, and he was notable to be with us here on the
panel, but we still wanted todefinitely talk to him, and so
here's our conversation withBrett.
All right, and it's my pleasureand honor to introduce yet
another guest, and that guestwould be Brett Adams.
(36:36):
Yeah, and Brett is coming to usremotely.
And, brett, I'm sorry that Ididn't make it possible for you
to be part of the actualconversation here and I'm.
We had some technicaldifficulties, and by technical
difficulties I mean I didn'tknow how to use my board
correctly.
Speaker 4 (36:55):
No problems, I'm just excited to be on.
Speaker 1 (36:56):
We have you on in part because I know you're a
very devout Catholic and want tohear a little bit about that
here in a second.
But you have just been such anamazing supporter and encourager
throughout all this initialproof-of-concept stage of Church
Potluck and so just alwaysthankful for your encouragement,
and so I said, when theopportunity arises, we need to
get him on the podcast, and sucha day has arrived.
Speaker 4 (37:22):
Yes, it took the death of a pope and the election
, but no, I love the podcast, Ilove the idea of the podcast.
So I mean, from day one, I'velistened intently and I'm always
willing to help however I canto assist in making it as
popular as I can.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
That is so nice of you, and Dr Papese and I were
laughing that sometimes I woulddrop an hour-long podcast and
about an hour and 15 minuteslater there'd be a little post
commenting on it and giving yourencouragement, and so that was
always very nice of you.
But tell us a little bit aboutyourself.
Tell us start off with yourBarry connection here, because
you know many of the people whoare on the podcast often.
Speaker 4 (37:55):
Yes, it was.
So I grew up about five minutesdown the road from Berry
College.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
I didn't know that.
Speaker 4 (38:09):
Yep had to drive past it every morning to get to
school and grew up, mythen-girlfriend went to Berry
College.
I was like I might as wellfollow her.
We both went to Berry College.
In fact, we got married atFrost Chapel and studied
religion and philosophy with DrPapazian.
Speaker 1 (38:21):
And you also had.
We talked about Dr Lawler for alittle while.
You have courses with Dr Lawleras well.
Speaker 4 (38:26):
Oh yes, oh yes.
I didn't have a ton of them,but I was able to take two
philosophy courses with him.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
Wonderful.
And you are now a lawyer, yes,so putting that Barry education
to good use.
I tried.
Speaker 4 (38:41):
You know I'm a lawyer so it's up for debate about how
successful that was.
But yeah, I went to GeorgiaState Law and after that got a
job as a prosecutor over inwhere I live now over in Coweta
in Noonan, and continue to usemy religion philosophy degree
from Barry to good use.
I'm in the process of gettingmy master's in theology with a
(39:03):
concentration on dogmatictheology.
Speaker 1 (39:07):
Wonderful, I did not know that.
Congratulations.
Speaker 4 (39:10):
Thank you, Thank you, and I continue to teach at my
local parish and you know veryinstilled in me very much the
head, heart and hands and Icontinue to try to practice that
philosophy everywhere.
Speaker 1 (39:22):
I go.
That is wonderful and itcertainly comes over your
thoughtfulness and in fact Ihave this correct on that.
You are someone who convertedto Catholicism as a young adult.
Is that correct?
Speaker 4 (39:33):
Yes, someone who converted to Catholicism as a
young adult.
Is that correct?
Yes, I met my now wife at theGovernor's Honors Program when
we were both in high school andwe started dating, and it was
only later that I found out shewas Catholic and at the time I
thought I need to make sure Isave her soul from eternal
(39:55):
damnation.
The problem was that, yeah, Imean it was out of love.
But the problem was she wasn'tquite sure the reasons behind
what she believed.
And so I decided I'll go toRCIA, which is the Rite of
Christian Initiation for Adults,which kind of teaches adults
what Catholics believe.
So I decided I'll go there,find out what they believe, what
she believes, so I can converther and save her.
And three years later I convertto the Catholic faith.
(40:19):
She's never let me forget thatshe was right, I was wrong.
Speaker 1 (40:23):
The first of many probably.
Speaker 4 (40:25):
Yes, in fact, I converted my freshman year at
Berry College.
Speaker 1 (40:28):
Well, how about that?
That sounds like anotherpodcast for another time, and I
want to hear more about that forsure.
But let's go ahead and turn ourattention to the selection of a
new pope, and I presume thatyou are surprised that it is an
American pope.
Speaker 4 (40:43):
Very much.
I mean, especially after theCold War.
They were seeing this idea thatas America became more and more
of a global power, americabecame more and more of a global
power.
No-transcript the provost was alittle bit on some people's
(41:11):
radar, but as kind of a darkhorse candidate.
Speaker 1 (41:16):
I mentioned earlier that I think that he had about a
2% chance of winning, accordingto the odds makers at various
booking agencies.
Tell me whether you think thepoint I made is accurate.
I mentioned that he wasattractive as a pope, even
though he was from a power, asyou mentioned, in part because
(41:36):
he didn't use that power.
He chose to go to Peru, hechose to live simply.
He almost modeled for those ofus who live in powerful places
ways of using that power forgood in humble ways.
Do you think that made him amore attractive candidate?
Speaker 4 (41:50):
I think so.
I think him coming from asuperpower like America and
having a Western idea ofgovernance helps in what the
cardinals were looking for.
But then also that missionaryspirit of spending so much of
his time as a clergyman in Peruand in Latin America really
(42:11):
assisted, and by everything I'veheard, very humble person.
When the Pope wanted to appointhim to, for example, the
Congregation for Bishops, whichis the head guy who helps tell
the Pope hey, here's someonethat you should appoint as a
bishop.
He first told the Pope I'll dowhatever you tell me.
If you decide to make thisappointment, I'm happy to do it,
(42:33):
but ultimately you make aprayerful decision about it.
And so the pope actually spenta little bit of time in prayer
about it and then decided toappoint him.
Speaker 1 (42:43):
That sounds wonderful .
I don't want to label you, butfrom the little bit I know of
your faith, you seem like youare very much a traditionalist.
Would that be a good, faircharacterization of your faith?
Speaker 4 (42:55):
It's hard when it comes to Catholicism, because
what is a traditionalist?
I don't attend, for example,mass that tends to do the
traditional Latin Mass, theVitis Ordo.
I go to Mass in the vernacular,but I'm orthodox, if that's the
way you take it.
Vernacular but I'm, you know,I'm Orthodox, if that's the way
(43:15):
you take it.
You know some of the problem.
When people talk about liberalor conservative in Catholicism
especially, is what do you meanby that?
Speaker 1 (43:20):
Do you mean?
Speaker 4 (43:21):
liberal, as in?
You know the person is for theordination of women, or do you
mean liberal, as in?
They push for going out andfeeding the hungry and clothing
the naked and giving home to thehomeless you homeless.
I would put myself more in themoderate camp of someone, for
example, that I appreciate thevarious rights in the church,
(43:44):
including the older right, and Ihope people are able to
practice that, but at the sametime I myself prefer more of a
wider church.
How can we bring people in?
Not necessarily.
How can we restrict people andkeep them out?
Speaker 1 (44:03):
Great, and I bring that up just to get a sense of
someone from your perspective,now that you've articulated it
so nicely.
What is your reaction, not tothe American part, but just to
Pope Leo XIV, just what you knowof him?
Speaker 4 (44:17):
When he first came on , he's very much in the mold of
Francis and of course this is Imean, pope Francis appointed so
many of the current cardinals.
This was going to be a pope whowas in the mold of Francis.
I think the question becomes isit Francis 2.0 or is it
something like Francis 1.5,right, and when he first came
(44:41):
out, I thought that this wasgoing to essentially just
continue to be a lockstep withPope Francis.
But a lot of things that he'sdone in just the last 24 hours
have indicated that, while hemight be continuing the
theological thought of PopeFrancis, he's going to have a
much different governing styleand, it appears, a much
(45:04):
different emphasis.
I mean, you know, the choice ofLeo as his regnal name stunning
, not something that I wouldhave thought that someone
completely in the mold of PopeFrancis would have chosen.
And then I mean I don't know ifanyone on the panel was able to
hear his homily today that hedid with the cardinals at his
(45:26):
first mass as pope, but it wasvery.
It was not a homily one wouldhave expected from Pope Francis.
Speaker 1 (45:34):
In what way?
Speaker 4 (45:35):
You know Pope Francis , a lot of his homilies,
especially in the last few years, have almost all when he's done
a homily.
A lot of times at Mass he wouldpreside but he wouldn't
actively participate, if youwill, as the main celebrant,
(45:56):
main celebration.
But in addition, a lot ofhomilies talked about a synodal
church walking together.
But Pope Leo's homily was veryChristocentric.
He talked about in the homilyneeding to walk together, but
needing to walk together asfriends of Christ, needing to
walk together as followers ofJesus.
In fact he said at one point hetalked about Jesus is the
(46:18):
Christ, jesus is the son of theliving father, he's the one
savior who alone reveals theface of the father.
And he talked about the atheismwe see today.
And Pope Francis didn't speak alot about atheism.
But Pope Leo in his homilytalked about atheism and said
that there are essentially twosides of one coin.
You have the world who rejectsJesus, and then you have those
(46:41):
who see him as just a man andjust another person.
You know, maybe a great personbut just another person, and
compare them as essentially thesame thing.
It's essentially two sides ofthe atheistic coin and we didn't
(47:02):
really see that emphasis onkind of that missionary spirit
as under Pope Francis, and so Ithink Leo might be setting
himself up as a Pope Francis, inthe same kind of mold as Pope
Francis, but with an emphasis onnot just going to the margins,
which was Pope Francis' emphasis, but going to all peoples, the
margins, the center, pretty muchtrying to bring Jesus to
(47:27):
everybody in sharing the gospel.
Speaker 1 (47:30):
And really emphasizing Jesus in the process
, not just the ministering topeople and meeting their needs
physically, as you minister tothe poor, for example, but
really, like you said, veryChrist-centric, which I assume
you take as a good thing.
Speaker 4 (47:45):
Yes, and you just put it in a much better way than I
did yeah, very Christocentric,and I mean that's very much in
the mold of Pope Leo XIII.
Speaker 1 (47:54):
Wonderful.
I appreciate that and I thoughtyou did a nice job summarizing
many of the things that wetalked about and you put them in
a very sharp perspective, whichI appreciate Is there anything
else that we haven't talkedabout, other than your dad jokes
that we needed.
Speaker 4 (48:10):
I am a little upset, to be honest.
I was hoping for CarnalPizzabala, so I could just
continue with these great pizzajokes, and I don't know how I'm
going to come up with them now.
With Leo, that's going to be alot harder.
Speaker 1 (48:20):
You know, the cardinals could have been more
attentive to the familiesworldwide if they had elected
Cardinal Pizzabala.
There would have been no end toconstantly talking about the
pope.
I guess they wouldn't refer tohim as Pope Pizzaballo, though,
would be the problem.
Speaker 4 (48:35):
Yeah, I guess that's fair.
That's fair.
They really did not take intoaccount my needs to make dad
jokes when they made thedecision.
Not a perfect choice, I guess,but I mean, I think we Catholics
owe fidelity to the pope.
Fidelity to the Pope, and theway I always take that is we
need to have charity, not justin what everyone says, but also
(48:59):
we need to have charity with aPope that, regardless of whether
you agreed with Francis ordidn't agree with Francis, allow
Pope Leo the time andopportunity to be his own Pope,
to establish his own preference,his own way of governance and
his own mission.
And so I'm excited.
(49:20):
Leo XIII was an interesting pope, and Pius and Leo were the two
names I was hoping the next popewould choose.
Oh, wow and yeah, and so I gotthe Leo.
(49:47):
And so I'm excited to see thatmore traditionalist Catholics
and their loss of largely theirloss of how they celebrate mass,
dealing with the governanceissues of trying to both keep
bishops in line but give themthe respect and freedom due to
their office, and looking at aVatican that I mean, quite
frankly, is dealing with a lotof financial problems coming up,
(50:10):
and I think what they werelooking for is an American Pope
who could bring that moreWestern style of governance to
the Vatican, who could continuein many of the ideas of Pope
Francis, but potentially with alittle bit more clarity.
Which Pope Leo I mean?
(50:32):
He's a Canaan lawyer and welawyers are known for anything
it's being specific and beingexact.
So I think we're going to seemany of the same I'm trying to
think of the word many of thesame preferences and emphasis of
Pope Francis, but in adifferent way and in a different
(50:52):
manner and in a different stylethat hopefully brings more
light and less darkness, moreclarity and less confusion, and
I think that's really what theywere looking for, in that happy
balance with Pope Leo.
So I'm excited Great firsthomily, great Irby at Orby
(51:12):
address and I'm excited to seewhere we go from here.
Speaker 1 (51:16):
That's great.
Thank you so much, and with youdoing those closing remarks, I
was thinking how people oftencomment just all the many varied
skills a pastor even a localparish pastor needs to have to
lead a small congregation, needsto have to lead a small
congregation, and I'm justthinking how much more do you
(51:37):
have to multiply that by inorder to lead a global church of
1.4 billion people?
It's just amazing.
And so it sounds like he checksoff many of the boxes, though.
Speaker 4 (51:44):
Yep, yep, and I mean I'm praying for him and I'm very
hopeful, I'm very excited and Ithink that the Cardinals, they
didn't make a quick choice, butthey also didn't take extremely
long.
Speaker 1 (51:59):
You know what I was going to wrap this up, but very
quickly.
I actually was shocked thatsomeone who is not a front
runner was able to be elected onthe second day.
I would have thought thatsomeone who was, so you know,
outside of the top choices, thatit would have taken a while to
reach consensus on such acandidate contingent, people who
(52:20):
wanted Tagli but maybe knew thedifficulties of trying to get
him elected, and also peopleconcerned about his government
(52:43):
style.
Speaker 4 (52:43):
I mean that's been some of the criticism and so
there was talk going into theconclave that Prevost might be a
good alternate to Tagli, butstill kind of in that mold of
Pope Francis.
And I mean we're going to findout more in the coming weeks as
Cardinals talk about you know,here were the thoughts, you know
in the conclave, here were thediscussions in the conclave.
(53:03):
We'll know a little bit moreabout what they were thinking.
But I mean Prevost was on thelist of possible contenders for
every single Vaticanista that Iread.
So he wasn't always on the listfor like the New York Times or
anything, but the people reallyin the know kept talking about
him as a possible dark horsecandidate that if a quick
(53:27):
consensus was not made onParolin or on Tagli, that he
might be the next choice.
Speaker 1 (53:35):
Very interesting.
Speaker 4 (53:36):
Yeah, and there's some evidence to indicate as
well that the more conservativewing and again I criticized at
the beginning talking aboutconservatives and liberals- I
understand.
But the more conservative wing.
There's evidence that the moreconservative wing actually
started to potentially rallyaround Prevost wing, actually
start to potentially rallyaround Prevost and that might
(53:57):
have helped him, along with someof the Tagliabokes, to get over
that hump of 89.
Speaker 1 (54:00):
Wonderful Brett, thank you again so much and I am
sure that we will find a waydown the road to get you back on
Church Potluck again, but yourmaiden voyage was wonderful and
I am greatly appreciative.
Speaker 4 (54:10):
Thank you, Dr McConkie, and I'm praying for
you and I really appreciate thisopportunity.
Speaker 1 (54:15):
Thank you very much, and by now it ought to just be
Dale, don't you think?
Speaker 4 (54:19):
No, okay, it's going to be Dr McConkie or Chaplain
McConkie, and I don't think it'sever going to be Dale.
I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (54:26):
Okay, attorney Adams Esquire, all right, adams
Esquire, all right.
Good talking with you and Iagain thanks a lot.
I want to thank you all forcoming out on very short notice.
I contacted both of youyesterday and said, hey, can you
get together for a podcast?
And you said yes, and I am verygrateful for that and I for
very little rehearsal.
I thought it went well.
So thank you very much, thankyou.
(54:47):
Thank you, yeah, and I want tothank our guests today, but I
also want to thank our audiencefor coming out and listening to
yet another episode of ChurchPotluck this week.
I'm trying to find my noteshere.
We're just going to keep thatall in there.
So thank you all for listening.
(55:09):
I hope we have provided youwith some food for thought and
something to chew on.
And, rita, don't let me forgetto get you a mug when we're done
with this for helping out here.
You need a mug and we mighthave a little conversation
afterwards, but probably alittle shorter than typical, but
we might have some leftoversafterward.
But we appreciate your supportand, as part of that support,
please consider ranking us,reviewing us or whatever you do
on your podcast home base.
(55:30):
But until we gather around thetable next time.
This has been Church Potluck,and thank you for listening.
I want to listen to this again.
I think it is Leo making thattoy night.
(55:53):
He was an American Pope.
Oh yeah, alright, I think it isLeo making that toy night.
He was an American Pope.
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