Jesus Christ, Moviestar: "The Chosen" and the Movie Messiah

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Explore the life of Jesus as it's represented in the modern film series, The Chosen. Join Rev. Dr. Jonathan Huggins and the exuberant Gabrielle Roes along with host Dale McConkey as we discuss the merits of this cinematic blockbuster within the Christian community.  We peel back the layers of film and television portrayals of Jesus to reveal how movies like The Chosen influence our faith and understanding of the scriptures. We also delve into the series' integration of Jewish customs, the artistic balance between imagination and scripture, and the emotional resonance these stories have with audiences today.

And join us as we play "Dale Got It Right or Dale Got It Wrong?" See if Gabrielle and Jon agree with these statements:

• The Chosen is the most Jewish representation of Jesus on film.
• We should be concerned by all the non-biblical content in The Chosen.
• Jesus’ personality in The Chosen is consistent with the way he is portrayed in the Bible.
• The Chosen misses the mark in the manner it gives authority to the Bible.
• We should be concerned by The Chosen’s connection to the Left Behind series.

Grab some popcorn and join the potluck! (Mixing metaphors much?)

Warning: Spoilers throughout the episode.

The views expressed on Church Potluck are solely those of the participants and do not represent any organization.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:04):
I like to see people bouncing like that when the
music comes on.
That makes me feel proud that Ipicked a relatively fun song
for the podcast.
Well, welcome everyone toChurch Potluck, where we are
serving up a smorgasbord ofChristian curiosity.
I'm your host, dale McConkey,sociology professor and United
Methodist pastor.

(00:25):
And there are two keys to agood Church Potluck Plenty of
variety and engagingconversation.
And this is exactly what we aretrying to do here on Church
Potluck Sitting down withfriends and sharing our ideas on
a variety of topics from avariety of academic disciplines
and a variety of Christiantraditions.
And I am excited about today'spodcast, not only because we got

(00:47):
some good friends to join, butwe're embarking on a new
endeavor.
But before we get to that,let's go ahead and introduce our
guests.
So first we have the eminentReverend Dr Jonathan Huggins.
Yeah, the crowd goes wild.
Reverend Dr Jonathan Huggins,introduce yourself.

Speaker 2 (01:09):
Alright, greetings.
Thanks, dale, it's good to beback here.
I'm John Huggins.
I'm the chaplain at Berry andteaching the religion department
here, and I'm also an ordainedAnglican priest.

Speaker 1 (01:19):
Awesome.
Thank you very much for that.
And our other guest is afamiliar face, but not a
familiar name.
We have Gabrielle Rose, yay,and I guess the formal way to
say it is Ne Marquez.
Yes, I really haven't seen youmuch since your nuptials in
November, so congratulations onthat.

(01:41):
Another applause, even a lot ofapplause.
Whoa Crowds, that's so.

Speaker 3 (01:46):
Thank you, dale.
Yes, I'm Gabrielle Rose and I'mglad to be here.
It's been a minute since I'vebeen on the podcast.

Speaker 1 (01:52):
Yes, we have missed you and open invitation Come on
whenever you want.

Speaker 3 (01:55):
Thank you.
Yes, I work in the chaplain'soffice with John and help do
college ministry here.
I'm a Berry alum and I'm in mymaster's program for clinical
mental health counseling.

Speaker 1 (02:06):
And how far along are you in that so far?

Speaker 3 (02:08):
I am in my last year yeah.
More applause.
Yeah, it's an exciting time.

Speaker 1 (02:13):
It is, I'm sure, a busy time.
So now you're married, you'vehad a little taste of marriage.
What's one of the things that,through your premarital
preparation, that you learnedthat has been invaluable?
Or what is something that youhave learned on the job, so to
speak, that you wish you hadknown before you got?

Speaker 3 (02:32):
Hard to pinpoint, just like one thing that has
been invaluable, but I think wehad a good premarital counselor
and he sparked lots ofconversations and kind of spying
through different topics, andso I think talking ahead of time
did help, but of course there'snothing quite like doing the
thing.

Speaker 1 (02:49):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (02:50):
And just learning daily life.
How do you share the thingsyou're responsible for and enjoy
life together?
I think being a newlywed it'sfun.
It's really fun, and I do.
I'm grateful for the people whoare like take marriage very
seriously, obviously, and thereare very difficult things about
marriage, but I don't know thatanyone highlighted just how fun

(03:11):
it is and it's like we've justenjoyed it.
We've laughed a lot.
The companionship of it hasbeen a wonderful blessing.

Speaker 1 (03:17):
Cool and I'm going to hit the A button, so I'll just
I'll try to mimic it.
Awww.
So no, very good, that's cool.
You know what crossed my mindas I was preparing for this
episode?
It might be good for the threeof us to be fun to come on, and
since all of us have beeninvolved in premarital
counseling and things like thatand we've all now been married,
is to come on and we're notquite generations apart I think

(03:37):
20s, 40s and approaching 60s, sofrom the three different
generations and having aconversation about marriage from
our various vantage points.
That's cool, all right, verycool.
But that's now what we're doingtoday.
What we are doing today is ourfirst foray into kind of a side
project or a complimentaryproject that I'm doing here with

(03:59):
church potluck, and I'vealready shared the music with
you before, but I want to do itone more time.
Y'all recognize the music owa.

Speaker 4 (04:14):
Jimin, you told me listen.
Yes, Currently sitting next tothe 260 billion subscribers fan.
All right, that's right.

Speaker 1 (04:39):
We're doing Jesus Christ movie star.
This has been an interest ofmine for I think over 20 years
that I taught a class onreligion and film and I told my
students that we're going tospecifically focus on the way
Jesus has been portrayed onfilms 20, 25 years ago.
Like I said, this is going tobe called Jesus Christ movie
star and I've always beencurious about the ways that

(04:59):
Jesus is represented in culturein general, but in this
particular case, in film, andthere really has been a very big
change both by secularportrayals of Jesus and within
the Christian community, the waythat Jesus is portrayed, and I
think that makes a big impact onthe way we read the Bible and
understand who Christ is.

(05:20):
So that's something I'minterested in.
This is a little bit prematurefor us to do this, or for me to
get into this, but I wantdecided to go ahead and do this
because of today's episode.
We're talking about the chosenand it's had three seasons so
far and the fourth season justnow began.
The fourth season has just nowbeen released in movie theaters
and it will be out and streamingeventually, and so I wanted to

(05:41):
maybe we'll see what happens butmaybe spend some time going
through season four fairlymethodically, as it comes out
and as it's on streaming, one ofthe things we should go ahead
and say right now while we aretalking about movies as always
when we talk about movies,spoiler alert we're not going to
hold back on anything, we'rejust going to talk about the

(06:03):
movie, and so there would beplenty of spoilers all
throughout this.
Like I said, this is about thechosen, and I don't know what
percentage of our audience iseven aware of this.
When did you all find out andlearn about the chosen?
Did you know about it the veryfirst season, when it opened up?

Speaker 3 (06:18):
When was the first season?

Speaker 1 (06:19):
I want to say 2017, but I'm not sure about that.

Speaker 3 (06:22):
Okay, then it was.
I didn't hear about it untilmuch later.
I probably didn't hear about ittill 2019, maybe.
Okay, yes, but had someonerecommend it.
I remember I was on a trip withthe Wind Shape College program
and we had a guest counselor onthe trip with us and she was
evangelizing about the chosen onthe trip.
This is the best thing, I'veever seen.
If you have not watched this,you must go home and watch it,

(06:45):
and I was interested.

Speaker 1 (06:46):
Good, I think you're going to obviously get your
opinions more later, but do youconcur with her?

Speaker 3 (06:51):
Yes, no, I think I'm a big advocate for it and have
not even finished all of it.
I think I've just watchedepisodes very slowly and as
there's time, but I've enjoyedlike slowly digesting the
content Okay.

Speaker 2 (07:04):
Great.
How about you?
Yeah, I first heard about it atsome point during the first
season from a minister friendwhose opinion on artistic things
I trusted, and I thought wewould give it a try and his
recommendation was powerful,because I think that typically
I'm not set up to like thesekinds of things it's sort of

(07:26):
dramatic portrayals of Jesusbecause they feel weird or
they're doing something that Ithink is not really historically
accurate or theologicallyhelpful or they make Jesus
strange in some way, and so Iwasn't like excited to start
watching it immediately.
But this friend of mine saidit's not perfect but it's
beautiful, and I thought, okay,I'll give it a try.

Speaker 1 (07:48):
Wow, wow.

Speaker 2 (07:50):
And then we've watched all three seasons as a
family, very excited about thefourth one.

Speaker 1 (07:53):
That's very cool and I suspect that you and I are
coming from a very similar place.
It's weird that I want to do aresearch project on this because
in general I don't like Jesusmovies.
The best way I have been ableto describe it in general Jesus
movies is that Jesus, in someform or another, always comes
over as two dimensional, justflat, and either they can't

(08:15):
capture both the divinity ofJesus or they miss out on the
humanity of Jesus.
And, he said, he's alwaysportrayed oddly, especially in
the early versions.
Jesus is as white, sometimeslooking like a ghost right, or
an angel or spirit himself, andso that's another topic for
another day, because that is notthe case in the chosen.
Just a little context on thechosen.
I'm certainly no expert on this,but supposedly it is the first

(08:39):
multi-part series TV episodeversion of Jesus that's ever
been produced.
And another interesting thingabout it is it has been
crowdfunded.
Which you think crowdfunded?
You think low budget, low scale, just the skin bones.
In terms of the financing,financing has been very
successful and, as you said,your friend said it was
beautiful.
I would say the productionquality is very high on this,

(09:02):
that you really feel like you'rewatching something that's very
well done.
This might be an overstatement,but sometimes Christian arts
can come over as just a lowbudget version of the secular
arts.
But I don't get that sense atall from this at all.
One example of that Go ahead, Ireally enjoyed the opening
music to it.
Yes, yes.

(09:25):
The fish swimming.
Yes, the video, for, assimplistic as the imaging is, it
really increases emotion, forsure.
All right, something that Irealized after listening to this

(09:51):
that many of the producersDallas Jenkins is like the top
of.
He and a couple of other folkssaid that one of their
inspirations was the Wire, whichwas an HBO show, and that intro
has a little feel, I think, ofthe Wire intro.
So I don't know if that has anyinfluence on it at all, but
this is something that has, Ithink, become a phenomenon of

(10:11):
sorts that started off known,but not super well known, even
in evangelical Christiancommunities, but it has grown in
popularity with this fourseason.
I've heard more buzz about itnow than I had before, maybe
because I'm aware of it now andlooking for it.
But let's go ahead and let's doa game show, all right, all

(10:32):
right.
So this game show is calledDale's Got it Right or Dale's
Got it Wrong, all right.
So I'm going to share somestatements and I'm going to say
right now I don't fully Embraceall these statements that I'm
making.
Some of them are for thepurposes of the show, but I want
to get your opinions on theseand just have a conversation
about each of these.
So the first statement that Ihave here is the chosen is the

(10:57):
most Jewish film Representationof Jesus and the Gospels that
there has ever been.

Speaker 2 (11:01):
I think you have it right.
I haven't seen every single Yay, I don't know that I've seen
every single representation, butI think they are taking pains
to make sure they do honor Jesus.
Jewish identity.

Speaker 3 (11:15):
Yeah, even with him going to bed praying in Hebrew
and just these little nuances tohis character and they like
take the time to include that.

Speaker 1 (11:24):
I agree, yeah and I would say even just in terms of
his physical appearance too.
So yeah so often, jesus movieswill have a white actor until
the 90s and 2000s, even, and soeven the physical appearance of
all the actors, but just sooften, like, they have these
little vignettes at thebeginning of the episode.
Sometimes I can debate breakingbad way, and sometimes they're

(11:47):
in different eras of history,right, and you're wondering what
is that in there for?
And it's to explain some Jewishcontext behind something that's
gonna happen later in theepisode.
That I always thought wasamazing.
They have had JewishConsultants, right, that's one
of the other things.
I don't know where I get this.
This is an evangelical project,obviously, but they have Jewish
consultants.

(12:07):
They had a Catholic consultant.
They've they've had a varietyof consultants.
Are you saying, yeah, likeyou're aware of that, yeah,
that's something that's wellknown.

Speaker 2 (12:16):
That's right, yeah, and there's lots of additional
material available on theYouTube or on the Angel app site
, like in addition to theepisode.
You can learn a lot aboutProduction background and who
there are.
Some of their consultants aretheir Intentional decision to
have the Jewish Jesus and tohonor the Jewish traditions, so
you see them practicing variousthings and then in the episodes.

Speaker 1 (12:38):
Yeah, and I mentioned that at the beginning, but
Angel is the production companythat is created.
It used to be vid Angel, nowit's Angel yeah, productions or
something like that.
Anything else about about it?
I love that how they explainthe holy days.
When we're talking, whenthey're talking about Jesus,
they always make an effort toExplain the Jewish context in a
way that part of a conversationno narration or anything like

(13:00):
that, but just somehow they workit in.
So people are aware, and Ithink if this series does
nothing else than to reallyDrill home for its audience that
Jesus comes from a Jewishculture, the things that he was
doing was rooted in Jewish life.
I think that's a very importantthing that sometimes
contemporary Christianity Justjust misses.

Speaker 3 (13:20):
Yeah and I'm with you .
It feels very organic in theway that they do it.
Yeah where it's not like.
Here's our teaching timeexactly, and this is
Conversation.
These are charactersinteracting with each other, but
very like, well done, in theway that they're communicating
parts of life.

Speaker 1 (13:35):
Yeah, do I have that right?
And talking about your students, that that when you're teaching
them that you have to reallydrill home the idea Of just how
Jewish Jesus was or do most ofthem?

Speaker 2 (13:46):
Yeah, I think at this point people typically get that
up front, though I do stillemphasize it and highlight
certain portrayals they may haveseen before.
Most of them Haven't seen theold Jesus of Nazareth movie, but
if you do, only at the brightblue eyes, yeah he has the blue
eyes and he never blinks.
Come up portraying them Likeintentionally never blinking
eyes, always wide open.

Speaker 1 (14:07):
So yeah, we speaking the King's English as well, and
they always have a Britishaccent.

Speaker 2 (14:10):
Oh, I'm glad they didn't do that either in this
one.
Yes, I was in the Romans a.

Speaker 1 (14:15):
Little bit.
Have some of them.
Yeah, have a little bit of a.

Speaker 2 (14:18):
American accents are always sound funny in a
historical depiction ofsomething.
So there are some with AmericanEnglish eggs.

Speaker 1 (14:25):
But someone should try with a southern accent.
Historical period.
So so you agreed with me aswell, gabriel.

Speaker 3 (14:38):
Yes, I would agree.

Speaker 1 (14:39):
I just needed the buzz, I just needed the
affirmation there, of course,all right.
My second question we should beconcerned by all the non
biblical content or extrabiblical content In the chosen?
I don't think so.

Speaker 2 (14:52):
I don't like.
We need to be okay.

Speaker 1 (14:53):
Oh, I don't have that wrong.
I don't have, I don't have theboo, but not here.
So you just have to boomyyourself if that's.

Speaker 3 (14:57):
If that's the case, I think there's with any Media
that you're engaging with, tothink critically, and I do
appreciate that the show has theat least it, I think in the
first season, had this where itwas like we encourage you to go
read the Gospels for yourself,and I think that kind of
promotion of like we are Takingscripture and we are using our
creative giftings to fill inthings that we don't have in the

(15:20):
Bible.

Speaker 1 (15:21):
I personally would have liked them to have put that
at the beginning of everyepisode, I think, because I
think that's a bit that's veryhelpful to remind people.
I know that kind of pulls youout sometimes, yeah, of that but
and I meant to acquire thatthey that they put in there.

Speaker 3 (15:36):
Yeah, but thinking critically is like that's never
a bad thing.
But I, even as watching this,like being like, oh, is there
anything in here that's like ared flag and it's.
I have not had any issues,honestly, with the things that
they brought forward and stilland watching it, yeah, but the
lens of this is creative libertyand doing it in a way that is
glorifying to God, the waysongwriters do.
It's like songwriters includethese things that aren't

(15:57):
necessary.
That's the exact passage in theBible, but it's so it doesn't
say sloppy, wet kiss anywhere.

Speaker 2 (16:05):
No, it isn't there the message remix.

Speaker 1 (16:08):
Alright, I'm going.
I'm going way off the charthere, but I do.
I forget what the exact phraseis, but often when they play
that song that I justreferenced- how he loves David
Crowder.
Yeah, that when you actuallysing it in church services,
sometimes they they will Takethat verse and change it to
something else unforeseen kiss.

Speaker 2 (16:25):
The show sometimes gets criticism for Not sticking
to just the words of scripture,which then you would still have
to take the four Gospels andblend them together to try to
make Jesus be saying preciselywhat the Gospels have Jesus
saying, and it seems that theyare careful and responsible with

(16:46):
the kind of Creative licensethey've taken so far, and they
might try to bring to life acharacter that in scriptures you
just don't know that much about.
So you get to know more about,say, nicodemus, for instance.

Speaker 1 (16:57):
In a sense, of what we do we, because do we do we
know that Nicodemus was thatinvolved all throughout Jesus
ministry?

Speaker 2 (17:04):
No, we don't know that.
But so the point is, is this anoutrageous sort of leap or is
it a Logical leap?
Is it something's like withinthe realm of possibility?
To me it seems like they keptto.
This is not An irrational ortotally out there guess.
So one of the big the big onesis Matthew, for instance, is
portrayed the disciple Matthewis portrayed in a certain way in

(17:24):
the chosen.
He's portrayed as being on theautism spectrum and someone
might think that's too muchcreative license.
You're just making stuff up.
But then just that to dig intowine, there's a whole little
extra they did on this about whythey make that decision that
you can watch and I actually wassurprised by it at first.
But it also struck me assomeone who's taught Matthew

(17:46):
many times in an academicsetting that that's actually not
outside the realm ofpossibility for someone.
He's very careful in his detail, his gospel is very it's highly
organized.
He was a tax collector, sosomeone who he was good with
details and money and puts thegospel together with this sort
of precision To imagine adisciple being in someone who

(18:09):
was on the spectrum is one.
It's not.
It's not a bad move, I don'tthink, and it actually opens up
the possibility they talk about.
One of the musicians I thinkfor the show also has was on
autism spectrum and Participatedin playing music for the show
and the deep connection she feltto the disciple Matthew as a
result of that, helping peoplesee that Jesus was calling

(18:30):
ordinary people from all walksof life, who probably had all
kinds of various backgrounds andissues and struggles, and
they're making the practical,theological point that anybody
can be with Jesus especially andall the other characters, I
think the human.

Speaker 3 (18:46):
This is probably my favorite thing of all of it,
where the first opening episodesJesus at some point is like
washing his hands and like doinga bedtime routine, and it
struck me as I've been aChristian for as long as I can
remember and I was like I'venever considered Jesus having a
bedtime routine or having totake care of his teeth or wash
his face or fold his clothing.

Speaker 1 (19:07):
Or being terrible at sports, or being terrible.
Yeah, I think that's like a bigtheme of the whole show is just
like all of these people arehumans, christ included, and
that's powerful and part of thepurpose of you the multi-part
series and for being so long, sothey can take that time to go
in and develop characters.
And so they're not just theseplastic people are walking up,

(19:28):
getting healed and running ontheir way that, understanding
who they were, what they'recoming from in imaginative way.
Here's my concern.
I agree, actually I read witheverything you said, so I
everything said I love.
But especially for those whoare not steeped in the Bible,
but even those like me who arepretty well steeped in the Bible
, when you add these extrathings it can get confusing as

(19:49):
to whether what's biblical andwhat's not.
Sure, I thought myself that'snot in the Bible, is it?
And I go look up and say okayall right, I'm not making things
up.

Speaker 2 (19:57):
I actually had a student make this mistake in a
like an answer to a test.
Yes, they said, didn't Jesusdid this and said this, and I
said, no, you're taking thatfrom the chosen, not from the
Bible.
He's here to go back.

Speaker 1 (20:09):
And so I do.
Am concerned about that and Iwill give a specific example
later on one of my questions.
But, like Matthew, I foundMatthew to be powerful, right,
the redemption that comes fromhim being a tax collector and
just the way he's welcomed andeven seen his differentness as
being a strength for thedisciples Wonderful.
I read someone else from theGospel Coalition saying very

(20:30):
much the same thing.
I'm kind of spectrum and this,this was so meaningful to me.
But I do worry about peopleconflating these things and not
realizing.
I had someone at my church saythey needed to have a little
flag at the top or somethingthis is from the Bible and then
have it off when it's now okay,this is from the Bible and this
is not.
I don't know how serious he wasbeing about that, but I do
worry about conflation, that somuch extra is brought in.

(20:53):
If the ratio is different, Ithink I'd be a little less
concerned, but it's about I'mmaking this about 80-20.
Only about 20% of the stuff islike directly stories from the
Bible and there's so much elsethat I do wonder if it will get
mixed up in a way that will bedetrimental.
I totally agree with you and Ithink, john, like you, I'm very
picky.
Like this, I do think the gapsthat they fill in and the

(21:15):
imagination that they use inyour terms, gabriel, does
glorify God is sincere effort toimagine what it would be like
in a way that I would usually becritical of.
Oh, that would be that thatcould be.
But I found myself very movedby the stuff that they have
added.

Speaker 2 (21:33):
It's good if we can use it as conversation starters
of it's good, conversationstarters about Jesus and also
for people who are in the churchfor reflecting on, like help
get inside these gospel storiesthat we maybe you hear the
reading in church on Sunday oryou've read it devotionally, but
to help them come alive.
And part of the goal is one ofthings I think they do really
well is getting the spirit ofJesus.

(21:54):
I seem to just have hit thatsolidly well, like the spirit of
what he was.

Speaker 1 (22:00):
Hold on to that, because we'll get to that here
in just a second.
What would you all say to oneof the members of my church
because I showed very moving inaddition to Matthew having these
autistic characteristics, youhave James, which I refer to as
little James having a physicaldisability.
And there's I showed this partto my church where I said, where

(22:20):
there's this wonderful sixminute exchange between little
James and Jesus, why aren't youhealing there right now?
There's no evidence in the Biblethat James had this physical,
but that six minute discussionis powerful to anybody who has
been chronically ill or has aphysical disability.
But when I showed this to mychurch, a lot of people liked it
and enjoyed it, but one personand he wasn't said very

(22:41):
graciously, wasn't hostile oranything he said.
But doesn't it say somewhere inthe Bible that you don't put
anything?
There's nothing that you should?
I should have looked up theverse before I'm saying it this
way.
But it's good on its own.
You don't need to add anythingto it, and it's actually not to
add anything to it.
So what would you say tosomeone like that, who takes
more of the Bible than only theBible kind of approach to their

(23:02):
understanding?

Speaker 2 (23:03):
I think the chosen is not claiming to be the Bible
directly, it's not claiming tobe inspired in the same way the
scriptures are, is trying toartistically help these stories
come to life, for people firstand kind of like a Ben Hurd kind
of thing that Jesus isproclaiming he's there, right?

Speaker 1 (23:20):
yeah, I don't think that's in the Bible no, I've
been heard, but there isactually.

Speaker 2 (23:26):
In that moment they're making a kind of a
theological point about someonewho suffers from an ailment or
something and they're not healed.
How might they walk faithfullyin that?
So you have these moments wherethey are inserting things into
the story to teach somethingthat is true.
Like Christians would stillaffirm this truth.
That's being illustrated, evenif that's not something that

(23:47):
happened in the text, and partof the issue here is, I think
people who are in, who know thearts well, who know literature
well, even many people who studyhow history is written
historiography, can get thisstuff and roll with it and
appreciate it.
And I find that people likeliterature types usually are
better at getting what the Bibleis after than, say, like

(24:09):
engineering types, like thepeople who so I need all mine.
I'll be careful there, my wifewas an engineer they often.
I often experience people likethat, who want the Bible to
function like instructions forhow to construct something, and
so the all the eyes have to bedotted people will call it God's
instruction book.
Sometimes that I cringe when Iyeah, the mechanism of

(24:30):
instruction is not what youexpect or think it should be
like.
They need it to be very preciseand almost like a mathematical
book.
If you will and don't know howto handle that.
How come Jesus says it this way?
And Mark's gospel?
He says it differently, andLuke's gospel?
What are we to make of that?
You're actually make creating aproblem that doesn't actually
exist in the world in whichthese means function, how they

(24:52):
operate.

Speaker 1 (24:53):
I remember when I was growing up and trying to really
get into the Bible andunderstand it, I was always
frustrated when Jesus never saidflat out yes, I'm gonna side.
It was always you say so, and Ididn't understand the context
behind it.
And so how come he's being wilythere?
He's you know he's not, he'snot coming out.

Speaker 2 (25:11):
I've heard one of my professors used.
We're talking about the book ofRevelation, for instance, and he
says people want it to be apuzzle book, where it's just a
bunch of puzzle pieces that youput together and if you can
figure out the right way to putit together, then you see
everything.
But the literary genre isfunctioning more like a picture
book.
So imagine a children's picturebook.
It's not a puzzle with pieces,it's painting pictures for you,

(25:32):
and each of these pictures has apowerful message to communicate
.
But you gotta be willing to seethe pictures and let them do
what they're trying to do,rather than trying to force them
to do what you want them to do,which is give you a detailed
map of the future or the presentor something like that.
Yeah, so I think like thechosen is just trying to help
these stories come alive for us,not say we think this is what

(25:54):
really happened like a scholarlyaccount or yeah, I was thinking
about that where it's like thecore issue seems to be biblical
literacy and watching the chosenis not going to fix biblical
illiteracy it's like that's whatyou're trying to amend.

Speaker 3 (26:09):
Like you do need to go read the text, you do need to
go study and this is not doingthat.
Yeah, like John saying, usingthis psychological term.

Speaker 1 (26:17):
It does help us get the Gestalt, though, right the
big picture of who Jesus was andwhat he did, just not the
details.
So great I'm gonna give myself.
Even though I was wrong on that, I'll give the conversation a
thumbs up.
All right, gabrielle, you getus started on this one here.
So here's our next questionJesus personality and demeanor
in the chosen is consistent withthe way he is portrayed in the

(26:40):
Gospels?
Dale's got it right or Dale'sgot it wrong?
I want to say yes no, you wantto say Dale's got it right.

Speaker 3 (26:46):
Yeah, I would say so.
I think the point of the showis it is making you think about
the character and personalityand demeanor of Christ, and so
none of us know for sure likewhat tone he was talking to
Nicodemus with, but I think itwas thought provoking.

(27:07):
It was thought provoking to meto be like, wow, how did that
come across when he's tellingNicodemus that he must die and
be reborn again?
And like how can you say thatseriously when you know that
doesn't make any sense to theperson you're talking to?
And I don't know.
I think it again.
It's like we can't know forsure, but the Christ that I have
come to know and come tounderstand the character of God

(27:28):
that I have come to seethroughout the Bible, it's like
it felt very consistent, just inmy spirit.

Speaker 1 (27:33):
It felt consistent with who I know Christ to be and
I really how you put it interms of tone, right?
I've always wondered that.
I often wonder that when I'mreading passages of scriptures,
this being said in a very gentletone, yeah, oh, ye, a little
faith or is it being said, oh,ye, a little faith, right,
there's so different, that's sodifferent yeah so I often wonder
how do we insert tone intoJesus's words?

(27:56):
But I agree my my sense of whoJesus is very consistent with
that.

Speaker 2 (28:01):
Yeah, I think the actor and the writing has done a
really excellent job with this,because Jesus isn't just one
way.
Depending on where you aremaybe on the theological
spectrum, you want Jesus alwaysmeek, mild and gentle, or you
want Jesus always for harsh andproclaiming the truth.
And the fact is the gospel isportraying with this dynamic.
You know that he iscompassionate and gentle with

(28:24):
people at certain times andharsh with people at times, and
that actually comes across inthe story too.
So, for instance, when he'srebuking James and John and one
of the episodes for their desireto want to, you know, rain down
these people who they perceiveas their enemies.
Jesus takes them away and he'srebuking them harshly, such that
even watching the show, you'recool that was tough but he is

(28:49):
clearly also loving them.
You see it, that story in thewhole context of the show.
There was another moment wherehe's really frustrated with the
Jewish authorities, for the isthat passage where he's talking
to them about how they emphasizethe minor parts of the law.
You strain out and that andswallow a camel.
He says to him you've neglectedthe more important matters.

(29:10):
And you can see in thepresentation of the actor he's
frustrated, he's angry with thembecause, of this and I think
they portray that.

Speaker 1 (29:17):
Yeah, the early portrayals of redemption of Mary
to a lesser degree, matthew,just the way Jesus does.
That is just was powerful he'smoving to me the early as he's
calling the disciples.
I found how they portray Jesusthere to be very good, and I
agree that the person who playsJesus is excellent.

(29:37):
It really does feel like Jesus,sometimes in ways that I rarely
get another portrayal.
Mm-hmm for sure have theycaptured Jesus's feisty prophet
side.
Yet he hasn't gone intoJerusalem for the big crescendo.
But do you get that at all?

Speaker 2 (29:55):
That's what I was just alluding to.
He's being feisty, callingpeople out, yeah, okay, is he
even getting in the show?
It's being portrayed in such away that he's becoming more bold
and more vocal as he's headingtowards Jerusalem, which fits
with the gospel trajectory ofthe mounting tension with
religious authorities just keepsgetting bigger and bigger as

(30:17):
the story goes.

Speaker 1 (30:18):
I agree totally that it has a nice.
It's building to those moreprophetic and more feisty
moments.

Speaker 3 (30:24):
The episode that I'm thinking of, which forgive me
because I can't remember whattown he's in, but when he goes
into the synagogue and he readsthe passage from was it Isaiah,
maybe?
And it's like I have come tofree the captives, and he's like
this is true now, Like I am theone who's coming to do this.

Speaker 1 (30:42):
That's a great scene.

Speaker 3 (30:43):
And it's I remember watching it because I'm, like,
naturally, a people pleaser andso watching the room go from oh
buddy, this is so fun thatyou're here.
Why don't you read a passagefor us for synagogue today?
And then like everyone slowlylike angry at him and he like
mic drops and like they likeobviously try to kill him, as
how the story goes.
But it's just like that to mewas like feisty prophet right

(31:07):
there.
It was like that's totallycontrolled too.
Yes.

Speaker 1 (31:11):
I love it.
Surely you're not saying thishe goes.
I think I was pretty clear.
Yes, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (31:18):
At one point they say he didn't use those words and
he says well, that's what Imeant.

Speaker 1 (31:22):
Oh, yes, that is it, and they don't overdo the humor,
but, man, they really docapture in a way that I really,
I really have enjoyed thoroughly.
Another scene, since we'retalking about favorite scenes I
like that is cousin John theBaptist is right, come on, you
gotta pull the trigger, let's go, let's go.
And he's I like his portrayaljust being a little out there,

(31:45):
like that friend who just wantsto go and head first to
everything, and so he's pushingJesus to do this and Jesus says
it's not time yet.
It's not time yet.
And then they come back to thecamp and there's somebody who's
being possessed by a demon andJesus runs over there and just
start yelling out out, get out,get out.
And the demon does leave andthe guy is just laying on the

(32:05):
ground, healed, and there's justlike total quiet and everyone's
in a stunned disbelief of thisdisplay of power, of passing
this demon out, and just allvery quiet.
And then, just in the distance,tiny little image of John the
Baptist.
Yeah.
That's what's.
I haven't laughed that hard atanything, and certainly not in a

(32:27):
Jesus movie, but in any recentmovie that can think of it.
It was just, the timing wasgreat and just I really enjoyed
that.
All right, so we all agree withthat, all right.
So Dale is right or Dale iswrong.
The chosen is errant in the wayit gives authority to the Bible,
and here I'll go ahead andexplain that.

(32:47):
One thing that probably thebiggest thing, that has not
bothered me, I don't know.
Just every time they haveMatthew writing stuff down.
To me that takes too muchlicense and that puts an
authority on the Bible that itwas being written down while it
was happening.
And John, you can correct me,but that just does not seem
accurate, that they weren'tspending time there documenting
what was going on.

(33:08):
And even in things that weredone in private, matthew keeps
saying you're going to tell meabout that, right, you're going
to tell me about that because Ineed to get it down.
And that puts authority on theBible in a way that it is
history in a very authoritativeway.
Because it was news, right,they were writing down what was
happening as it was going on.
That seems wrong and forsomething is the way the Bible

(33:29):
has authority is different andwe shouldn't pretend otherwise.

Speaker 2 (33:34):
That's my opinion on that, but it's a creative way of
suggesting, through the showthat, how these things go from
event to text, what we don'thave in the Gospels.
Yes, it's not a videotranscript.
It's not as if someone werethere transcribing everything
that happened not what theGospels claim to be.
But there is also evidence thatstudents of rabbis did dictate

(33:58):
or take notes on things thattheir rabbis were teaching them.
These early as the first andsecond century.
So I've come across this instudy and teaching.
So it's not outside the realmof possibility that one of them
and Matthew slash Levi beingsomeone probably of a little
higher literacy, maybe makingnotes.

(34:19):
So that's not outside the realmof possibility.

Speaker 1 (34:22):
It's helpful to me because it just seems,
especially if you are nomadic,like they were you're being
around that you're not going tohave they actually hand him a
little.
I think Jesus says you might beneeding this, or something like
that.
And it just I did like thevignette at the beginning of one
of the episodes where they showthem older.

Speaker 3 (34:39):
Yes, I was thinking that.

Speaker 1 (34:40):
And Matthew was writing it down, and so that
makes perfect sense.
It seems consistent, but to bedocumenting it as it went along,
so maybe I'm being a little bittoo harsh on that, but that
just seemed to be a stretch tome.

Speaker 3 (34:51):
That's fair.
Yeah, I think that's athoughtful critique Interesting.
I didn't know that about rabbisand their disciples or their
followers.

Speaker 2 (34:58):
So nothing more about biblical accuracy or portrayal
In general in terms of thephilosophy of the show.
They want to honor thescriptures and the scriptures
are the authoritative account ofthe life of Jesus, the only
ones we have, the only ones thechurch has ever had.
It's like how do we knowanything about Jesus at all?
It's from the New Testamentwritings, and specifically the

(35:22):
gospel writings, so they arereliable access In terms of the
witnesses learning what did theeyewitnesses and the people who
come immediately after them, howdid they remember Jesus?
What did they say about him?
We don't have any other accessto Jesus aside from these
documents where we could saythis is what really happened.

(35:42):
So the Bible does functionauthoritatively for us.

Speaker 1 (35:47):
I totally agree with that.
But I'm just saying there's anauthoritative in that this is
our best documentation, butthere's also an authoritative.
This was written down at thatmoment, which is one step toward
.
God's hand was on the hand ofthe author writing it down, so
it's totally inerrant because itwas written by God, not by
humans, as a testament of faith,and so I just thought that was

(36:09):
one step too far for me.

Speaker 3 (36:11):
It seems like a tricky thing to portray what.
Would you have imagined a moreaccurate way to convey how
scripture was written down?
Like the vignette where he'slike writing it, is that like a
more Maybe?

Speaker 1 (36:21):
even multiple times, doing that vignette to remind us
that these things, you know,were being recorded by people
who were there and who werewitnesses.
I think that's important becauseyou have other people who say,
you know, this was all made upafter the fact and everything.
But you know, I think it'spretty clear from the Gospels
and the Book of Acts that peoplewere definitely convinced of
what they had seen andexperienced, and so that's

(36:43):
authoritative to me more in away that doesn't need to be what
we consider.
We do have a different standard.
Now, right, was there a witnessand did we have video?
You know, I believe it when Isee it type of mentality, and I
just don't think it doesn't seemlike it would be that way.
I don't know if the what yousaid, john, earlier, about
taking notes of the rabbis I'dbe curious to know if any of
them were like traveling rabbis,right, that when you're in the

(37:05):
midst of the ministry ratherthan sitting down at their feet
and hearing the lectures andsuch whether that would happen.
But that is helpful, that maybeI'm being overly harsh on that,
and just for the sake oftrusting the Gospels.

Speaker 2 (37:17):
one thing I think about is Jesus says things in a
way that are often in ways thatare often easy to remember, so
he's telling a story or it's ashort kind of statement.
He's not giving these longdiscourses or long treatises
that are very complicated.
Often it's easy to rememberstuff that he's probably saying
many times as he goes to another.

(37:37):
So the trajectory in terms ofNew Testament can information
you're going from eyewitnessaccounts to the oral tradition.
It's two written documents andthat oral tradition season is
anywhere from 30 to 40 yearsafter the time of Jesus.
But we're not dealing withcontent that would be hard or
difficult for people to pass onin their memory, given the

(37:58):
Because it was storyteller right, and that's very memorable,
right.

Speaker 1 (38:02):
It's not systematic theology.
That's right, okay, good.
So Dale's wrong, this one?
I'll already go ahead and saythat I think the answer is
Dale's wrong, but I just wantedto bring this up as a point of
conversation.
Dale is right, Dale is wrong.
We should be concerned by theassociation or connection of

(38:24):
this series to the left behindseries.
Dale is right, Dale is wrong.
And again I'll just go aheadand give the context here.
I was totally shocked when Ifound out that Dallas Jenkins,
who is the producer of thisseries, is the son of Jerry B
Jenkins, was one of theco-authors of the left behind

(38:47):
series.
Wow, and these two series seemlike on opposite ends of the
portrayal of Christian faith inone way or another One the
gentle, compassionate, but alsofeisty Jesus and then the
rapture.
So I said, what's going on withthat?
And his father, Jerry B Jenkins, is novelizing these now Really
, and I don't know.

(39:07):
I don't think they're out yet,but he is converting these into
novels.

Speaker 2 (39:10):
So I hope the sins of the father aren't passed on to
this.
I say that joke.
I think even in the left behindseries, if I remember right,
jerry B Jenkins was more of thestoryteller contributor whereas
Tim LaHaye was more of thetheological contributor to those
things and most of the problemsthat people have with them,
like problems I have with theleft behind series, are the

(39:31):
theological problems, not thestorytelling issues.
I didn't mean to cut you offthere, but it's fascinating.

Speaker 1 (39:36):
In the little tiny bit of research I did on this,
even major newspapers werecomplimenting the storytelling,
which I found to be interesting,that I would have just
dismissed it out of hand becauseof the theology behind it.
And this is also can't go onthis.
But when you look up thepictures of Tim LaHaye and Jerry
B Jenkins, jerry B Jenkins isalways smiling, tim LaHaye not

(39:57):
so much.
I do find that interesting and Iwould love to hear Jerry B
Jenkins' thoughts on that nowbeing part of two big projects,
two really major Christianphenomenon in the literary world
.

Speaker 2 (40:08):
It's also probably something neat there, Dallas
being able to grow up in thatsemi-artistic environment where
there's books and movies beingproduced, and then him learning
to be a director or producer.

Speaker 1 (40:21):
Very good one by all appearances.

Speaker 2 (40:23):
Almost like that was necessary background for Dallas
to be able to do what he's doing.

Speaker 3 (40:26):
Yeah, it equipped him for making the chosen now.

Speaker 1 (40:30):
So maybe y'all are saying we needed the left behind
series in order for us to getthe chosen.

Speaker 3 (40:36):
Only the Lord knows.

Speaker 2 (40:39):
That's always a good father.
Good father Into the Jesusseries rather than a yeah, so
you agree with me that thoseboth seem very different, right?

Speaker 1 (40:46):
Oh yes, the connection there is very
surprising to me.
I thought that was interesting,but we shouldn't judge the
chosen or be worried about theconnection there in any way.
It would be funny if they getthe series six and then just
everything.

Speaker 2 (41:00):
Yeah, wow, it just goes into a left behind movie,
that's right.
That's right.

Speaker 3 (41:07):
This is the prequel.
That would be this point.

Speaker 1 (41:10):
Anyway.
So, gabrielle, what haven't wetalked about that you'd like to
talk about Anything, about theseries or anything you said.
You talked about your friendwho was being evangelistic,
about the movie itself.
Do you have several friends whohave watched it and all
reacting pretty much the sameway?

Speaker 3 (41:24):
Oh, yeah, I feel like it's pretty common for people
to have watched parties, lots ofBible studies.

Speaker 1 (41:29):
Oh really, We'll use this.

Speaker 3 (41:30):
Hang out and watch an episode a week and talk about
it together, which I have nothad a chance to be a part of
that, but obviously havediscussed it with friends, and I
think that's a great way to doit is to do.
What we're doing right now isto pick a part and look at where
was this actually explicitly inscripture?
Where was their creativelicense taken?
What is being like?
What theological points arethey making about Jesus?

(41:53):
But, yeah, no people seem toreally enjoy it and love it.
And again, it's just the wholething of like Jesus being
embodied and being made real tome and to again.
I think I already said this,but like the Nicodemus episode
really was very important to me.
And again, to see this likechapter that is typically, it's

(42:14):
just like all these bulletpoints in the Bible of here's a
point, here's a point, here's apoint, and like how in the world
did that make sense in aconversation?
And it was like a light bulbwent off in my brain to watch
this portrayal of Jesus have aconversation with Nicodemus and
somehow these points did flowinto one another and did make a
coherent statement and I waslike that's shocking, because to

(42:36):
me they were so disparate andconfusing, and I think it was
powerful to see that.

Speaker 1 (42:40):
I like that.
You're right.
Sometimes in scripture it isjust documenting things Jesus
said, without a whole lot of thecontext, or it's not a very
rarely is it a full conversationwhere you're getting both
people, and so I agree with youthat seeing, oh, that would make
sense in how this comes up.
I do that a lot as well.
It's nice.

Speaker 3 (42:57):
Yeah, just putting some flesh and bones on words
that we read all the time.
I also appreciate if justhighlights from the show, but
the sermon on the mount, it wasa huge buildup to it and I think
that was something I'd nevereven considered.
It was like oh, I wonder whatit was like to prepare and like
how much did Jesus actuallyprepare?

Speaker 1 (43:16):
and I like that.
They showed both the logisticalpreparation and how we know
lots of people are going to becoming out for this and how are
we going to do it?
And then it made me think in ajudgmental way, or but?
So Jesus really had to sitthere and think how to say this
A very human aspect of preparinga very important speech.
He's human, so I guess youwould sit there and say what's
the most effective way of doingthat, rather than just this

(43:40):
disembodied spirit having thewords already and I've already
got exactly what needs to besaid and I don't have to give it
any reflection.
That was a thought provokermoment for me.

Speaker 3 (43:49):
Yeah, and as you're saying that, I'm thinking about
the fact that Jesus had to prayas often as he did, and it's
yeah, it wasn't just this divinezapping of knowledge and
ability, but he's communing withthe Father, he is reflecting,
he is thinking and that's nottoo much of a stretch, in my
opinion, to think about himtrying to decide, like, how do I
best communicate this to peopleand take these huge theological

(44:10):
truths and put them intostories that they will remember
and a common person can walkaway and think about that for
days.

Speaker 1 (44:17):
I like that a lot.
I think for me this is one ofthe most human representations
of Jesus, without sacrificingthe divine aspects.
It so often comes down toeither or in these portrayals in
film, and I think this reallydoes a great job of showing the
fully human and fully divine.

Speaker 3 (44:36):
One other thing.
My husband, I think, is lessexcited about the chosen than I
am.
He still likes it, but he hadmade the comment of he did not
enjoy the additional likeromantic things happening
between some of the disciplesand I was curious, I don't know
if.
Did that bother either of you?
Do you know what I'm talkingabout?

Speaker 1 (44:54):
You're the one married to him, so what does
this say?

Speaker 3 (44:57):
Yeah, I think he is more like black and white than I
tend to be, and so I think forhim it's like that is irrelevant
to the story, starts to feelrom-com-y when this is supposed
to be about the Bible.

Speaker 1 (45:08):
Here's what I'll say.
Attached to that, and I've gotgood and bad point to it.
I do think that they're goingso much into the backgrounds of
some of these characters that ithas started to feel like is
dragging a little bit for me.
I was immediately fascinated.
I've been so hard when I first.
I didn't watch this until withinthe last couple months when I

(45:29):
found out the four season wascoming, because I said, oh, you
put this off long enough.
But I was worried aboutespecially my bias, coming from
conservative evangelical kind ofcircles that it was, you know.
But so I had a bias there thatI have to confess, and so I just
binged and I was justfascinated and I was just taken
out.
I was being moved for emotionsand tend to be more analytical
when I watch things, and so itwas just wonderful.

(45:51):
But then, third season, it juststarted to slow up.
For me Now, a good part of thatis that I got this out a brain
cramp.
I think some of that doescapture the pacing of what
ancient life would be like inIsrael.
That things just didn't go fromhere.

(46:11):
It's not like Mark, where, bang, things are happening every
moment, right, there's lots oftime in between and there's just
conversations and there'sfamily moments and there's other
things going on rather thanjust the teachings and just
these historical moments.
So there's something good aboutthat.
But sometimes when it gets intoso much imagination in terms of
the romance, but I haven't fora moment thought oh, that's too

(46:33):
much romance.
Personally wish that they hadgone through Peter and Eden's
the miscarriages, themiscarriages, that they dragged
the tension between them out alittle longer than I would have
liked.
I was drawing on.
When I found out what the issuewas, I said that's good, but
this is me being critical withzero editing and knowledge of
movie making, so maybe it wasperfect in the way that it was

(46:55):
done.
But for me that I said theywere showing her.
I said come on, you're a goodfamily, had that conversation,
the conversation's coming, goahead and have it In a way
that's necessary.

Speaker 2 (47:06):
So I like those things pretty well.
To me they're not unreasonableguesses as to the kinds of
things the disciples could befacing.
So the show's called the Chosen.
There's a sense in which it'sfocusing on the disciples, their
stories and a lot of that,since we don't know much
background to them.
As we know, peter's married,but we don't know, did they ever

(47:26):
have issues?
But we do, and so they'remaking, they're constantly
making those connections withthe audience to help the
audience see themselves in thestory.
I think and that becomes prettypowerful Cause in my mind
nothing's been portrayed.
That's just an unreasonablething.
Should we imagine that none ofthe other disciples were ever
interested in marriage or andone of the females coming along

(47:50):
as a disciple as well?
That seems reasonable and it'sdone respectfully and you
actually learn some things aboutthe culture in the process,
right In terms of how therelationships could be pursued
or how our marriage orengagement could be pursued, and
that's interesting.

Speaker 1 (48:03):
This is maybe a bad point time to bring it up, but
one of the things I also likeabout the Chosen a lot is, even
though all the apostles are men,right, they really incorporate
women very much into the movieand they're seen as central and
integral and important.
Now, bringing it up duringrom-com moment maybe diminishing
that point, because it's farmore than that in terms of they

(48:27):
have two of the women being veryinstrumental in raising funds
for the mission and doing veryimportant things.

Speaker 2 (48:34):
The whole first episode.
So it's still Mary Magdalene.
Yeah, yeah, very much.
I was gonna mention just aminute ago that I often there's
certain scenes that are run moreclosely to the biblical
narrative.
Sometimes I will use thosescenes in a class or a sermon to
illustrate it, for the reasonof helping people to imagine it,
get inside the story,experience it from another and

(48:56):
another way not just reading it,but hearing it.
Seeing it Might have been likeyou know.

Speaker 1 (49:01):
We live in the age of the image.

Speaker 2 (49:03):
right, yeah, we're all doing this in our heads
anyway.
When we read the text, we'reimagining what it would be like.
When we read about Jesus, we'reimagining what he might've
looked like, how he might'vesounded, and this has given you
one person, or a group ofpeople's version of their
imagination when they read thetext.
We're already doing this anyway.
We can listen to theirs.

Speaker 1 (49:21):
Gabriel, you work with John probably more than
anybody else.
Are you surprised by how youknow his critical mind right and
are you surprised by how holyhe is embracing the chosen.

Speaker 3 (49:31):
No, no.
I think something about John isthat he looks for the places he
can affirm and encourage goodwork.
That's being done, so I thinkJohn is quick to.

Speaker 1 (49:41):
I just cause he can't find any fault with you.

Speaker 3 (49:43):
No, no, no.
But just in general, I thinkwhen he engages with our
students, when he engages withanyone who's like trying to
wrestle with theology, he's likequick to encourage them in what
they're doing right rather thanhighlight the places they're
going wrong.
So that's not surprising.

Speaker 1 (49:56):
That's a very chaplain-y thing to do.
I wasn't asking you to givecompliments to you.
You're a supervisor.

Speaker 3 (50:03):
It's true, I've seen that's good.

Speaker 1 (50:06):
Yeah, I knew we got a good one way back in the day.
Good, anything else that wehaven't talked about that we
should.

Speaker 2 (50:11):
I'm looking forward to the fourth season.
I've heard from some studentswho've already gone to see the
first three episodes that havebeen released in theater and
they feel like the productionquality and writing just keeps
getting better and better.
Wow, well, it'll be good.

Speaker 1 (50:25):
I think I'll probably wait for it to stream, but I
might all of a sudden get theurge and run out and watch it.
But it's three hours in thetheater, right yeah indeed Three
episodes at it.
Or maybe not quite three,because it's 45 minutes times
three, so they show threeepisodes at a time.

Speaker 2 (50:40):
Oh, if I could maybe add a final comment, and this
maybe just as a recommendationfor the show One of the things I
think is powerful about it andI'm just saying this as a
Christian, as a minister that ifit has the opportunity to
reintroduce Jesus to people whomaybe already think they know
him or already think they have,maybe they have a preconceived
idea of what they think Jesus islike, either coming from the

(51:02):
churches they've grown up in orChristians they've met, or
images they've seen and stainedglass or whatever, and maybe
it's been an image that wasoff-putting or the impression
they got was off-putting.
I would just say let watch thisstory with an open heart and
mind, knowing it is reflectingthe scripture.
Let it lead you to thescriptures, of course, but also

(51:22):
let it reintroduce Jesus to youafresh to see him maybe again
for the first time.

Speaker 1 (51:29):
Well, I can't think of a better place to stop the
conversation, and I wish youwould say that at the very
beginning, because that itselfwas quite moving and I totally
agree with that.
So I agree.
Well, mrs Rose, thank you somuch for coming and sharing, and
John, thank you very much foryour comments as well, and I

(51:49):
wanna thank our audience forsitting around the table with us
today, and I hope we haveprovided you with some food for
thought and something to chew on.
I guess if we're doing JesusChrist movie star, I gotta come
up with a different outro, youknow.
So I'm catching it to movieimagery, so Some Hallelujah
chorus stuff, you know that'sright.
Well, we might not be done yet.
So, after we finish the music,we usually have some leftovers

(52:11):
where we chat about other thingsthat we thought about afterward
, and you're welcome to listenin on those as well.
But thank you so much forlistening.
We appreciate your support.
This has been Church Potluck.
All right, we are done, butwe're still recording, okay, so
you can leave those on if youwant or we can just sit back and
chat.

Speaker 4 (52:28):
So that was really good and that really was I
really loved what you said atthe very end there.

Speaker 1 (52:32):
That's exactly how I feel about this and you kind of
said it at the beginning in adifferent way, just that, even
though with all the extra andadded stuff, it glorifies God
and does the work, and I thinkthat's a great thing.
I think that's a great thing.
I think that's a great thing.
I think that's a great thing.
I think that's a great thing.
I think that's a great thing.
It glorifies God and does afaithful job of portraying the

(52:54):
character of Jesus.

Speaker 3 (52:56):
Yeah, no, I mean, even I think it's so hard to
come by media of any kind.
That is good for the soul, andso I know it's like just in my
very personal life on a Fridaynight, what are we gonna watch?
And it's so nice to be like Iwatched something You're gonna
watch a romcom with your husband?

Speaker 1 (53:12):
Yeah, watch a romcom.
No, I mean because that's howhe's portraying.

Speaker 3 (53:16):
Yes, yeah, but I think it's so nice to be like I
can watch this show that I'mactually gonna leave feeling
nourished rather than depleted.
I'm gonna leave feeling restedand thinking more about Christ
and it's like the fact thatthere's something that exists
out there that's like that.
That's a show, is amazing.

Speaker 2 (53:34):
I think previous media portrayals movie, tv show
portrayals of Jesus have been.
It's too easy to sort ofcritique them because there's
stuff that's just kind ofobviously strange.
But I was surprised at howmoved and touched I was by
watching Me too totally, and itkind of took me by surprise.

(53:57):
I mean in that first episodewhen Jesus first finally enters
the show right at the very endand he quotes this passage that
she's learned as a little girlI've chosen you and then goes up
and puts his hands on her, mywife and I are both just like

(54:19):
the floodwater's open.
We're just like crying, andsome of the appreciation of
these moments is born out ofyour own life suffering.
And wondering where is Jesus inthis?
Is Jesus with me?
Is he near me?
Seeing it portrayed like.
There's that moment when one ofthe disciples I forget which
one at the moment I know,nathaniel, yeah is portrayed as

(54:39):
having had his businesses fallapart and he's crying out to God
like where are you?
And he feels like God isnowhere to be found as he's
praying.
And then later in the episodehe meets Jesus and Jesus says I
saw you, yeah, with a tree.
Once again, it's like.
It's like all your own personallife, suffering and hardship
comes to the surface.
In that moment You're like didyou see me Jesus yeah.

Speaker 1 (55:04):
Yeah, I was surprised by how it took me emotionally I
don't know if I've got aparticular moment, even though I
haven't had any physicaldefermenties or anything that
exchanged between little Jamesand Jesus, because you're
telling me to go out and healpeople and here I'm not healed.
Why, I'm sure people who sufferlike that, why would you not

(55:27):
take this away from me?
Isn't that the better thing,right?
And Jesus is kind of explaininghow, yes, you would have an
amazing story, but think aboutthe story you'll have, that you
were faithful even through this,that you healed others and
comforted others even throughthis.
That touched me very powerfully.

Speaker 3 (55:47):
And I was thinking about this was your.
I don't remember which questionbrought this up, but I was
thinking about the fact that wepreach like John and I both
preach on Sunday nights atcollege church and the whole
idea of preaching is like youare saying more than just the
scripture, like we read thescripture and then you elaborate
and you add in other storiesthat connect, or you kind of add

(56:07):
in some commentary on thingsthat are going on and thinking
about the chosen doing somethingvery similar and preaching
being taking the word of God andhelping apply it to this
current context.
And I'm thinking of so many ofmy students and, like me
studying to be a therapist, it'slike so many of my students are
very in touch with emotion andlike want to connect with

(56:28):
something real and somethingdeep.
And then for the show to belike a timely thing for this
generation who is like no,that's real, like what I'm
watching is real and it's notjust some facts or some theology
, but there's story, there'snarrative, there's healing, and
so I think that's good.

Speaker 1 (56:43):
I've never done this during the the leftover time,
but that was.
That's awesome and that's how Ianswer the person at my church
who said you know you never addor take away from what's in the
scripture.
And I said but that's whatpreaching is right, that we're
finding ways to explain what'sbeing proclaimed in the Bible.

(57:08):
So the way you said it was, Ilove that.
Exactly that's what preachingis and this is preaching, and
it's difficult to sometimes findpreaching exactly how you like
it right and the chosen doessuch a good job of it.
Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (57:28):
Another scene, you know, even though they're taking
the license, with themiscarriage and miscommunication
, you know, between Peter andEden.
I do love it being resolvedLike at the same time, like the
powerful imagery of she's doinga cleansing ritual at the moment
, that I missed that Peter is onthe water and the storm and

(57:51):
Jesus is walking on the waterand he's invites him to walk out
on the water too and he startsto sink.
It's like he's sinking at thesame time she's going down for
cleansing.
Oh, maybe I've been reachedthere.

Speaker 1 (58:01):
Yeah, I've got like, I've got like two episodes or
three episodes Spoiler alert,spoiler alert.

Speaker 2 (58:07):
They were kind of kind of resolved at the same
time.
It was powerfully done.
You know I got the wrong oneagain I saw an excerpt where
they were talking about justfilming that scene of Jesus
walking on the water.
It was so difficult to figureout how to do it that at one

(58:27):
point they said we can't do thisthing, we're just going to have
to skip it.
And then they were like it's inthe theme song, we can't skip
it.
It's walking on the water inthe theme song.
So they pull it together.

Speaker 3 (58:41):
Yeah, and I think it's good to think about how
human the people who are who aremaking this show.
Like, before you get supercritical, think about if you sat
down to try to make a showabout Jesus or write a song
about Jesus or write a storyLike it's.
Like it's a lot of pressure.

Speaker 1 (58:59):
That's one of the things that I before I mentioned
.
Has stunned me is just thequality of this, both in the
storytelling and in just theproduction value of it.
It's just, it's so veryimpressive yeah.

Speaker 3 (59:14):
And I feel like I'm, like I just can't imagine that
there hasn't been a ton ofprayer making it.
You know, like I'm, like I feellike they had to have asked the
Lord for guidance and theSpirit to lead them, because it
is like it's impacting in a waythat, in my opinion, has to be
beyond just like human abilitiesand like, oh, I'm just really
smart and good at making shows.
It's like this this is too goodto just be you.

Speaker 1 (59:34):
Yeah, indeed, it will be interesting to see its
legacy, whether this will bejust something that's been
produced and then, 10 years fromnow, you know, get you know a
little bit of streaming and alittle bit of attention, or if
it's something that will becomekind of iconic.

Speaker 4 (59:49):
Yeah, I think it has that I think it has that
potential.
For sure.

Speaker 2 (59:54):
You know this interest in authenticity,
portraying things well and asthey most likely were.
You know you saw it when thepassion movie was released Mel
Gibson's Passion.

Speaker 1 (01:00:06):
Movie yes.

Speaker 2 (01:00:07):
Whenever, that was 2004 or something you know, 20
years ago that's.
I find that film to be it'sdifficult to watch because it is
so brutal, you know, in itseffort to be accurate in the
depiction of Jesus suffering.
It's brutal and it's sort ofdrug out and that part's tough.
But they have little momentswhere they have flashbacks and

(01:00:29):
they have Jesus and he acts asyou know in the movies Jesus
speaking in Aramaic, you know,and it's like a moment at home
with his mom while he's buildinga table.

Speaker 1 (01:00:38):
You know you're getting sort of the humanness of
Jesus in that moment One of thevignettes shows him as a child
right, Skitting his knee orsomething like that, getting
covered yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:00:47):
They actually powerfully portrayed that in the
Passion.
That's one of my favoritemoments.
Mary's remembering him falldown as a child.
At the moment he's falling downholding the cross, yeah.
And she runs up to him and it'sone of the most powerful lines.
And again, it's not in theGospels but it's in Revelation.
Jesus says behold, I'm makingall things new.
He says it right there in thePassion Me.

(01:01:08):
She goes to him and he says I'mmaking all things new.

Speaker 1 (01:01:12):
Yeah, Like I got a little chill just to hear you
telling this.

Speaker 3 (01:01:16):
That's beautiful, I mean that was.
The one other thing we didn'treally talk about was his
relationship with Mary and theone episode where he's doing a
bunch of healings and Mary showsup at the end of the day and
like helps put Jesus back to bed, and, like I was even had these
like thoughts of like maybe hedoesn't need me anymore, he
doesn't need his Eema.
And it's like no, he still does.

(01:01:37):
I don't know.
I thought, yeah, I think it'smoving and I don't know.
I don't know how you guys feltabout his relationship with Mary
.

Speaker 1 (01:01:44):
I think it was very good.
I'm trying to remember when heturned, when she convinces him
to turn water into wine.
I don't think she is, assometimes you get a little.
He's my son.
Yes, he'll do what I say, eventhough it's his first miracle,
you know.
Yeah, yeah.
So that was a fun conversationand I will say, just a little
surprise, just how much youembraced it.

(01:02:06):
But that's very cool.
That's very cool, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:02:08):
That's very cool, and he didn't turn the water to
grape juice even though it comesout of this conservative.
No, he didn't.

Speaker 1 (01:02:15):
Well, it's not true, no, no, we confess this grape
juice.
So many traditions, so manyconservative traditions, say you
know it was unfermented wine,that it really wasn't alcoholic.
It wasn't.
It wasn't the same as what wecall wine today.
And a little, a littlehistorical factoid here.
Maybe when you were at MountTabor with us that you heard me

(01:02:35):
say this once at one point itwas the Methodists who invented
grape juice.
Yes, or A Methodist, right, Ido Welch's.
It was a guy named Welch and itwas originally named Welch's
Unfermented Sacramento Wine.

Speaker 3 (01:02:49):
Yeah, why didn't they keep that title?
It's okay, it's okay.

Speaker 1 (01:02:54):
Everybody wants to drink Unfermented Sacramento
Wine.
Well, thank you all so much.
That was a lot of fun.

Speaker 3 (01:03:01):
Thank you.
Thank you, Dale.