Jimmy Carter's Faith-Full Legacy

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What was it about Jimmy Carter's legacy that touched so many lives beyond his presidency? Join us on Church Potluck as we share a captivating discussion with Mike, Christy, and newcomer Dr. Steve Terry, who braved the weather to be with us. Together, we explore the personal and political journey of a leader whose influence transcended his time in office. From stories of attending Carter's Sunday school class to heartfelt memories of meeting him in person, we paint a picture of a man whose genuine warmth and unwavering moral integrity left an indelible mark on those who crossed his path.

In this episode, we unravel the complexities of Carter's presidency, reflecting on his steadfast commitment to justice and humility amidst significant challenges like inflation and the Iran hostage crisis. Dr. Terry offers a unique perspective, having experienced Carter's impact before he ascended to the highest office in the land. We ponder the transformation of evangelical Christians' political involvement during Carter's era, and the emergence of the Moral Majority, while celebrating his remarkable interfaith efforts that brought diverse communities together. We also play the game show "Jimmy Carter or Dalai Lama?"

The views expressed on Church Potluck are solely those of the participants and do not represent any organization.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
We are recording Even before we get started.
I'm going to start off with acouple of thank yous for you all
.
So, first of all, especially toMike and Christy, thank you for
coming out before the semesterhas even started getting here,
and especially to all three ofyou, thank you for coming out in

(00:21):
this kind of weather.
The roads are not nearly astreacherous as Michael Bailey
implied in his text message.
All three of you, Thank you forcoming out in this kind of
weather.
Oh, you're great.
Yeah, the roads are not nearlyas treacherous as Michael Bailey
implied in his text message.
West Rome is awful, but justgetting out of the cold didn't
have.
This is something I don't wantto be doing.
But thank you all for comingout very much, and I want to
thank you and welcome everyoneto Church Potluck, where we are

(00:44):
serving up a smorgasbord ofChristian curiosity.
I'm your host, Dale McConkie,sociology professor and United
Methodist pastor, and you knowthere are two keys to a good
Church Potluck plenty of varietyand engaging conversation.
And this is exactly what we'retrying to do here on Church
Potluck.
We're sitting down with friendsand sharing our ideas on a

(01:06):
variety of topics from a varietyof academic disciplines and a
variety of Christian traditionsand today we got a very special
episode.
I was very excited and in facteveryone agreed to come out
before the semester has evenbegun to get started recording,
because we are going to kind ofcelebrate and reflect on the
presidency and the person ofJimmy Carter James Earl Carter,

(01:29):
who died December 29th at age100.
So lived a very long andcertainly very full life.
His state funeral is tomorrow,we are recording this on
Wednesday and his state funeralis on Thursday, but he's already
gone through Layton State.
In fact, Chrissy, we'll justget started.
Your son actually saw him.
Layton State, yes.

Speaker 2 (01:48):
Yeah.
So my son just happens to be inWashington DC right now for a
conference and I was trying toget him tickets to tour the
Congress but my former studentwho works there is like, oh no,
we can't because Jimmy Carter'slying in state.
So I told him that and he andhis buddy went last night and
yeah, there was a big crowdthere as people cycled through

(02:12):
and could stand around theconference and yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:14):
Wow, kind of a sad opportunity, but a cool
opportunity for him to get to dothat.
Yeah, so, especially with a momwho teaches history, and we'll
do that as a way of introduction.
Welcome to Christy Snyder, whospecializes in American history.
So for you, happy New Year.
Yeah, good to have you and ourother guests.

(02:34):
You know them, you'll love them.
Michael Bailey, happy New Year.
And, michael, you're always anexpert, but you are particularly
an expert this time, eventhough you said that you didn't
prepare.
I'm going to call you out much,but you teach a course on
American presidency, so whobetter to talk to us about?

Speaker 2 (02:53):
I can name about 10 people on this hall, but thank
you.

Speaker 1 (02:58):
And we have a third guest who is a first-timer and
we have Dr Steve Terry.
Happy New Year.
Happy New Year.
Happy New Year, Dr Terry.
You were not here at Barry, butyou are here, a local guy who
taught AP history for quite anumber of years.
Say a few more things,introduce yourself to the
audience.

Speaker 4 (03:15):
I'm originally from the metropolis of Cave Spring or
the suburb of Foster's.
Mill but I lived in Roswell for30 years and was the department
chair at Roswell High SchoolSocial studies.
Wonderful place to work, greatcolleagues, and convinced my
wife to move to Rome with me asshe got to know Barry, our son
played baseball, attended Barry,and so we moved here about 13

(03:36):
years ago.
Here I am.

Speaker 1 (03:38):
And, as you said, you're Cave Spring born, so
something that the three of usdon't have is you kind of
experienced Carter even beforehis presidential years, and so
looking forward to hearing aboutyour experiences there too.
But the most important thingyou left off is you're my golf
buddy.

Speaker 4 (03:52):
That's true.
That's right.
Yeah, and he speaks to me inpublic.
That's right?

Speaker 1 (03:56):
Anyway, great to have you on the podcast, great to be
here.
Let's talk about Jimmy Carter,his legacy, both the legacy of
his presidency, the legacy ofhis presidency, the legacy of
his life and the legacy of hisfaith, and I just thought we'd
start off by each of us sharinga fairly brief reflection to get
us started on what you knowduring this time of you know,

(04:17):
reflecting on President Carter,what things come to mind and
what have our experiences been?

Speaker 2 (04:23):
Anybody want to jump in, I would say Carter is the
first president I remember right.

Speaker 1 (04:28):
Oh, I was going to say the same thing, so let me
check that off of my notes here.

Speaker 2 (04:31):
Yeah, I was born in 1970, but I remember his
presidency.
I remember in elementary schooltalking about when he was
running for re-election, whetherpeople were going to vote for
him or Reagan and what parentsthought so yeah, he was
definitely the first presidentof my memory.

Speaker 1 (04:49):
Do you think that was formative in any way?

Speaker 2 (04:57):
I think so.
Yeah, and you know, my parentsat the time were very much kind
of working class Democrats andso they were much more
supportive of Carter and hisre-election attempt than they
were of Ronald Reagan.
So I think that played into ittoo.

Speaker 1 (05:06):
And it's interesting because I guess there's about
five years difference between us.
In fact I can only say this forseven more days.
Dr Terry is the only one in his60s at the table.
You know, us young ones who are59 and 358 days old are not
quite in our 60s yet, but I havethe exact same.

(05:27):
But it's interesting that youremember kind of the Reagan
portion at the end, because I'mfive years younger than you.
I actually don't rememberWatergate.
I vaguely remember Nixonresigning, little bits and
pieces of the brief Fordadministration, but I remember
the campaign between Ford andCarter.
I remember things about that.
The biggest thing I rememberactually I didn't mean to jump

(05:47):
in here but I will go ahead andjump in One of the things I
remembered was the firstcampaign ad that I saw and they
never mentioned, as far as I canrecall, that Jimmy Carter was
governor.
It was just this peanut farmerrunning for president.
And I did not understand how inthe world this peanut farmer
thought he could be president ofthe United States, and so I was
very confused.

(06:08):
I remember that and, speakingof campaign, here's a little
ditty from.
This is going to take us backto another time.
This is the very end of one ofour Carter's campaign songs.
We need Jimmy Carter.

Speaker 4 (06:22):
Why settle for less America?

Speaker 3 (06:38):
Once and for all.
Why not the best we need, JimmyCarter?

Speaker 4 (06:45):
We can't afford to settle for less America.
What are your thoughts on this?
I'm surprised you didn't getBob Dylan or Willie Nelson to
sing for you.

Speaker 1 (06:50):
The Allman Brothers did perform for William Pinson
Is that right, why not the best?
All right, Steve Michael.
Why don't you jump in?
What are your?

Speaker 4 (06:59):
reflections.
As I said, I'm the elderstatesman here.
Carter was the first presidentI voted for, so 76 was the first
election and I was living inAthens at the time.
I was an undergrad at Georgiaand I was a volunteer at the
Athens headquarters for theCarter campaign, mondale
campaign.
But just being from Georgia wasjust a blast.
I think somebody from the deepsouth Of course Watergate helped

(07:21):
tremendously, yes but I had methim when I was in, I guess, the
eighth grade.
A friend of our family, johnAdams, was the rep, local
legislature from the area and Iwas able to be a page at the
Capitol.
I also did when Lister Maddoxwas there.
But Jimmy Carter was the firsttime that I'd been as a page.
And of course then he wasgovernor of Georgia from a place

(07:43):
no one had ever heard of Plains, sumter County.
But then to be able to be thefirst time to vote for him, I
will always remember that and Iused to tease my students.
I had a running average of mywins versus losses my first win
and he was my first loss as faras voting.
But he's always been a hero fornot just being from Georgia but

(08:03):
for a lot of other things Infact.

Speaker 1 (08:05):
I've seen your study.

Speaker 4 (08:06):
so tell us what's in your study.
I have one of the campaignposters that I'd gotten from the
Athens headquarters and I'vealways kept it.
First it was in my classroom,and being in Roswell and have a
Democrat up on your board of anysort bastion of Republicanism
as it was at the time, I hadalways got a lot of reaction.
But yeah, he's sitting up thereright next to Lincoln and MLK

(08:26):
on my wall.
Good choices.

Speaker 1 (08:28):
You get a little bit of a pass from him being in
Georgia, right?

Speaker 4 (08:30):
That's right, absolutely, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (08:33):
Yeah, I do remember him running in 76 against Ford.
But I remember in December of76, being at the airport, kansas
City, and picking up my myfamily, picking up my
grandmother from Detroit and shewas also kind of a blue-collar
Democrat and I remember at thattime she expressed such high

(08:55):
hope that this was going to be agood era, things were going to
turn around, and I remember hersaying that she had this good
feeling that he would be likeanother Franklin Roosevelt.
She would say Roosevelt andlooking back on it, it just
shows how, when there's a winnerand you haven't entered office,
everything is possible.

(09:15):
But then, of course, realitycreeps in.

Speaker 1 (09:18):
And we'll talk about that reality.
But before we talk about thepresidency and other things, let
me go ahead and share a memory,also fast-forwarding many years
.
This is probably 2005 or so and, as most people know, one of
the many things Jimmy Carter didafter he was president was he
would teach Sunday school at hischurch, at Maranatha Baptist
Church down in Plains, georgia,and one of the best Father's Day

(09:43):
gifts I ever got by far was aweekend down in Americas,
georgia, in Plains, georgia.
On Saturday we toured Habitatfor Humanity the headquarters
was down there at the time andhad a wonderful time there.
I've got a very heartwarmingstory related to that regarding
my son.
Maybe not now, but maybe in theleftover section.

(10:03):
I'll tell you that part of thestory as well too.
But then Sunday morning we getup and we go listen to the
formerly most powerful person inthe world talking about how
Easter Day was the most pivotalday in all of human history.
There was just something aboutthe way he taught it.
Some people say that with a lotof power and that would make
you scared perhaps, but therewas something about the way

(10:26):
Carter sang it.
It just felt so profound and weloved it, and Ingrid, my wife
was in a wheelchair at the time,and so they actually had her
wheeled up.
It was as you would imagine thesanctuary was packed, she was
wheeled up, so we were rightbeside Carter when he was doing
this, and when he left hereached over and just put his
hand on Ingrid's head, just likea little blessing, almost, as
he walked, and that meant atremendous amount to her.

(10:48):
That was always very special,that he took a moment just to.
You know, he didn't even sayanything to her.
And then afterward they allowall the families who've been
there to line up and we do lineup in a big semicircle outside
and the Carters will come andtake a picture with you.
But they make it very clearthey won't have time to talk,

(11:08):
they just come and take, youknow.
So it's a very regimentedactivity and the Carters are
taking a picture with each ofthe families and about two
people, two families before theyget to my family, kristen just
decides to move from theright-hand side to the left-hand
side of our family and it was alittle bizarre.
And then all of a sudden Irealized what she was doing.

(11:30):
She had seen that Jimmy wasalways on the left-hand side.
Smart girl.
Yeah, not only was she a smartgirl, but this was before the
time of editing.
We get the photo and she gets acopy of it and she cuts the
rest of the family out.
Oh, no.
So somewhere she gets a copy ofit and she cuts the rest of the
family out.
So somewhere she has a photo ofjust her and Jimmy Carter the

(11:53):
two saints together.

Speaker 3 (11:54):
That's right, that's exactly right.

Speaker 1 (11:56):
But that's a very special family memory that I
have.

Speaker 2 (11:59):
That's very cool.

Speaker 4 (11:59):
Do you remember when you were there, did he open the
service with asking if therewere missionaries or pastors
there that wanted to open inprayer.

Speaker 1 (12:06):
I have forgotten.
It is funny how I remember thatone line that he said and I
have it on VHS tape so I havesome editing to do so I can
watch it again.
But I do hope to very soon beable to watch it again to see
what he said.
But I have forgotten thedetails of the sermon.

Speaker 4 (12:20):
My wife and son took me for a birthday present.
First time I saw him there andhe opened up with that question
and there was a missionaryfamily there and the gentleman
led the prayer.
But there he comes out withbolo tie.
He didn't wear a conventionaltie, but the one with the little
string.
And then later we took my momand my stepfather and were able

(12:45):
to listen to him.
And, like you said, there's theformer president of the United
States and he comes in andstarts off with what he had done
that week and what he had donewhat he had been to Ghana, and
then pulls out the scripture andthen he does a Sunday school.
But they ask you, please stayfor the service, don't just come
for the Sunday school classright.

Speaker 1 (12:59):
I don't know how much they emphasize that because we
definitely had many people leave.
I think they encouraged, but wehad.
It was definitely smaller afterthe Sunday school.

Speaker 4 (13:06):
Yeah, but it was just special to realize who.
You're sitting there listeningto a Sunday school class.

Speaker 1 (13:12):
Yeah.
I agree very much and clearlythat faith of Jimmy Carter's was
incredibly genuine and itinfluenced everything he did.
And let's let one of all threeof you are experts Somebody jump
in and just talk a little bitabout the Carter legacy, whether
you want to talk about hispresidency in particular, or you
know, clearly he's known forbeing the greatest post

(13:32):
president rather than thegreatest president.
I looked up, you know, in therankings of presidents.
He usually ends up in themiddle somewhere all the various
polls of scholars, every nowand then in the lower third, but
usually right in the centersomewhere.
So someone just get a start.
What should we be thinkingabout?
President Carter and his publiclegacy.

Speaker 4 (13:51):
When he passed and they started talking about it,
we started watching littlesnippets on TV and my wife
looked and she said you know,what stuck with me was the fact
that when they asked him whathis wanted to be his legacy, and
he paused and he thought and hesays to be remembered as a good
father and a good grandfatherand that was it.
It stopped right there.

(14:12):
But I think you and I discussedthat whenever I think of him,
you think of Micah 6'8" dojustice, love kindness and walk
humbly, and that, to me, thatsums him up in just as concise a
way as possible.

Speaker 2 (14:27):
I mean, I guess, whenever I think about Carter, I
don't know.
So, yeah, I have the ways thatI talk about him in class,
depending on what the subject is, and then the way I think about
him personally, which is, asthis, like really honest, good
guy who tried to live his faithin his presidency and after his

(14:52):
presidency, and it's just really, I think, amazing how he is
able to stay kind of that humbleservant leader even after being
president, where it seems likeit just doesn't happen for a lot
of other presidents.

Speaker 3 (15:09):
You know, I think if you think about the question was
about his presidency inparticular.
It's hard to.
I think there's a kind of areevaluation of his presidency
and it's ticking upward as well,in part because as we get more
removed from that circumstancewe realize just how context
plays such an important part ofany president's success or

(15:31):
failure.
And he came into office on areally narrow, thin margin.
He did not have anything likenational support before that set
of primaries in 1970.
He was not very well known, buthe was.
You played this advertisementright.
It was the music and it wasdesigned intentionally to

(15:51):
reflect his humility and hissimplicity and a kind of
alternative to the swamp at thetime.

Speaker 1 (15:58):
Turn over.

Speaker 3 (15:58):
I will not lie to the American people, and because of
Nixon, and I think he was seenas an alternative to the kind of
Machiavellian politics ofJohnson and Nixon at that time.
And even Ford was sort ofimplicated that, by the way.
He came into office and thenhis pardon, but he didn't have a
constituency group that reallysupported him all that much
going into the presidency.

(16:19):
He didn't have a really clearpolitical ideology.
He didn't have a really clearpolitical ideology and he was
just faced with a lot of verydifficult problems with
inflation and employment andenergy.
And then you had the Irancrisis.
That was very difficult toaddress and solve in the manner
he tried.
He was a great moral leader andI think he was just as upright

(16:40):
as one could be morally,spiritually.
He hardly liked politics though.
He thought making deals andbargaining and negotiating and
compromising was sort of beneathhim.
He had a kind ofself-righteousness and he stood
apart from the political side ofit.
That did not serve him verywell.
A devout Christian beingself-righteous that all the

(17:01):
things that caused him to beperseverant and devoted to the
causes he believed in also werethe same kind of forces that
propelled him to see himselfabove at all.

Speaker 4 (17:13):
He didn't like negotiating.

Speaker 3 (17:14):
He you know both like I mean think about an LBJ who
would strike any deal andbargain with anyone, and just
that's what he lived andbreathed.
And Jimmy Carter wanted topresent facts to people in a
kind of professorial way and wasshocked that they didn't kind
of buy into it.
So I think he was in some sensea very good moral leader.
But I think his presidency isgoing to always be marked or

(17:35):
checkered.
At best I could say yeah, makessense.

Speaker 2 (17:38):
Yeah, so the only place I would disagree with you
is when, if you look at hisforeign policy, I think he did
have like an ideology that hefollowed there, right, so that
we're going to operate more on amoral ground of foreign policy
rather than, you know, kind of aKissinger realistic.
You know, let's make sure thatwe're looking out for, I mean, I

(18:00):
think Carter would say we arelooking out for America's best
interest by acting in a moral,in a more moral way with other
nations.
But it definitely went againstthe grain of how things had been
done for a long time.

Speaker 3 (18:14):
I agree with you that his foreign policy came from
this kind of devotion to humanrights, especially in peace, and
that stayed with himpost-presidency as well,
especially in peace, and thatstayed with him post-presidency
as well, and he put himself inphysical danger at times, going
to very kind of unstable anddangerous places for the sake of
peace.
No one doubted his character inthat.
The question, though, from apolitical standpoint, is how

(18:35):
much of that really had a veryhigh payoff, and you know his
trying to bring Panama Canal tothe Panamanians I mean, that
might have been the right thingto do.
It probably was.
I don't know what kind ofpolitical payoff it had at home,
so I think he always offered.

Speaker 1 (18:52):
One of the things I remember as a child was all the
bumper stickers that said keepthe canal, give away Carter,
Right, right.

Speaker 3 (18:57):
Yeah, so I'm not trying to be critical of
Carter's decision making, but Ithink he was so devoted to doing
the right thing that he didn'talways do what was expedient or
popular.

Speaker 1 (19:08):
So this is interesting because you're you
are making kind of an argumentthat I wanted to make, but
you're doing it kind of on him,taking the moral high ground,
which I was also taken kind ofthe opposite thing because of
his humility.
Is that a characteristic that apresident can have?
And one of the things I'vealways wondered is we see him as
such a great post-president?

(19:29):
It's because he didn't havepower and he was operating from
the bottom right or from aposition of a servant, which you
can do when you're notpresident.
And that's kind of, is that anecessity of Christian leaders,
faith in Christian action, thatit has to be done from a
position of a servant ratherthan from a position of power?
And so I've always wonderedabout that, that if Carter tried

(19:51):
to do it from a servant aspresident, whether that works.
I mean.

Speaker 3 (19:55):
But wouldn't we all agree that there's some issues
that are more obviously heavy inmoral content, like civil
rights, and there's some thatseem a little bit more
technocratic, like how do yousolve an energy problem?
There might be an underlyingkind of moral imperative to
solve the problem, but I thinkyou know, had Jimmy Carter been
in office in the 60s with thesame values you know, he may

(20:15):
have been a very tremendouspresident.
He would not have got involvedin Vietnam.
He probably would have, youknow, deferred to Congress on
some of that legislation, someof the welfare legislation, but
he would have taken a lead oncivil rights.
But he just wasn't faced withthose questions and he was
dealing with difficult foreignpolicy questions with the
Soviets and Afghanistan andenergy crises.

(20:36):
And I'm not sure what theChristian perspective is on that
, any more than what's theChristian perspective on
plumbing or being a chef.
I mean, there probably is, butit's not enough.

Speaker 1 (20:48):
After that, you just tell me.
After the episode I'll tell youwhat the Christian perspective
is on each of those.
Hey, y'all want to play a gameshow?
Yeah, we need Jimmy Carter.
Press the wrong button.

Speaker 2 (20:58):
Well, we can always sing this song again.
We can take a quick nap.

Speaker 3 (21:03):
Who was the singer in that?
Did you say?

Speaker 1 (21:05):
I don't remember.

Speaker 3 (21:05):
I was wondering if it was Billy.

Speaker 1 (21:09):
Carter.
No, this is the button that Imeant to play.
All right Game show.
Today's game show Jimmy Carteror Dalai Lama.

Speaker 3 (21:24):
Oh, I love it All right.

Speaker 1 (21:25):
All right, and we're going to, rather than each of
you fighting against it, we'regoing to let this be a
collective decision.
So you all collude with eachother and figure out what the
answer here is, and don't lookat my notes here for me, please.
All right, so here's the firstone.
Love and compassion arenecessities, not luxuries.
Without them, humanity cannotsurvive.

(21:47):
Jimmy Carter or Dalai LamaRight both Well, most of these
are.

Speaker 2 (21:52):
You can imagine both saying that's the point of the
game Love and compassion.

Speaker 1 (21:56):
Dalai Lama.

Speaker 2 (21:57):
I'm going to go with Dalai Lama too.

Speaker 1 (21:59):
Okay, I'll go with Carter.
The two votes carry.

Speaker 3 (22:03):
Oh man, I got my buttons all wrong.

Speaker 1 (22:06):
What's going on with me and my buttons.
But happy new year again.
But also, you got it right thatwas the Dalai Lama.
Okay, religion is not somethingwe can impose on others.
It must come from within.
I'm trying to hear that with anaccent, jimmy.

Speaker 4 (22:20):
Carter or Dalai Lama, southern accent.

Speaker 2 (22:24):
I'm going to go with Dalai Lama again, but I don't
know.
Yeah, I'm going to go withDalai Lama again, but I don't
know.

Speaker 3 (22:28):
Yeah, I'm just going to keep going with Carter.

Speaker 1 (22:31):
I'll take.

Speaker 4 (22:31):
Dalai.

Speaker 1 (22:31):
Lama, again, I don't have a no buzzer, but Michael
Bailey, that was Carter.
So we're good, good.
The bond of our common humanityis stronger than the
divisiveness of our fears andprejudices.
President.

Speaker 3 (22:46):
Carter, the bond of our common no, that's more
Clinton, sorry.
Focus on the common.

Speaker 1 (22:53):
The bond of our common humanity is stronger than
the divisiveness of our fearsand prejudices.

Speaker 2 (23:00):
Right now I feel like I'm flipping a coin.
Yeah, I'll go with Dalai Lamaagain, Carter.

Speaker 1 (23:05):
It was Carter.
Yeah, that's good, that's good,that's good, that's good,
that's good.
How about this one?
If you want others to be happy,practice compassion.
If you want to be happy,practice compassion.
Sounds like Dalai.

Speaker 3 (23:19):
Lama, I'm going to switch it up, I agree.

Speaker 2 (23:21):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (23:25):
Yes, that one was Dalai Lama.

Speaker 4 (23:26):
It's kind of interesting, though, that all
these quotes could go to eitherperson.
That is really cool.
Yep, yep, which is kind of thepoint I wanted to make here.

Speaker 1 (23:35):
There's more, but I just want to be the last one.
I see the work of God in eachof us, regardless of our faith
and beliefs.
That sounds like Carter, that'sCarter.

Speaker 2 (23:44):
Yes, I agree, carter.
All right, very well done.

Speaker 1 (23:48):
I think, overall, that the collective effort was
very good and it is interestinghow it's difficult to discern
between the two and it doesremind us of the moral.
You know, many of these werethings that he said afterward,
but he shared his faith, youknow, very, very openly
throughout and some people don'trealize that he was actually

(24:10):
quite the interfaith president,and this is one of the things
that has always intrigued meabout Carter.
He may have been the first, butI know that he was one of the
first to have an interfaithprayer service sponsored as
president.
He was the first.
I'd be curious, as a Catholic,whether you're surprised by this
.
Jimmy Carter was the firstperson to invite the Pope to the
White House.

Speaker 2 (24:30):
Seriously, I am surprised by that.

Speaker 1 (24:32):
Not until 1970.
I don't remember which year,but he was the first one Also
probably the first president tolight a menorah publicly.
Someone told a very touchingstory on CNN yesterday during
the funeral about how after theCamp David Accords where you
know Carter was negotiating apeace between Egypt and Israel.

(24:56):
That like just a few days afterthat, he attended a Seder with
many of his Jewish friends andsaid he stayed for the entire
thing and Seders can be quitelong and participate in every
way and it just meant much tothe person who was relaying this
story.
And it's interesting to me andI was wondering if this is
almost like one of those things.
Only Nixon could go to Chinabecause he had spoken out so

(25:16):
harshly that only someone withthese strong Christian
convictions could also do thesethings in an interfaith way,
because nobody was going toquestion his conviction.

Speaker 4 (25:26):
And at the very beginning that was somewhat of a
liability.
He came across as this peopledidn't know what the word saved
meant, yes, and he came acrossas such a pure lily white, you
know, just perfect guy that theyconvinced him to do the Playboy
interview, which backfiredtremendously, yes, and probably
drove some away from it.

Speaker 1 (25:42):
Remind people what happened at the Playboy
interview.

Speaker 4 (25:44):
Yeah, he was being interviewed Because you read the
article right.
Just the article and it was avery long video and he felt like
it was just a complete waste oftime and he finally at the end
I guess to make points or getheadlines said that he had
lusted in his heart for otherwomen, which is a very
fundamentalist way of saying hecommitted adultery.
His heart, no, absolutely Justin his heart, because of just

(26:10):
thoughts.
And that became everybody waslike what's that mean?
And then they were looking atwhat this seemed to be saying.
At the beginning I said I guesshe was a Southern Baptist.
But he also left the FirstBaptist Church of Plains because
of a racial situation.
They wouldn't allow blacks toserve in the church.

Speaker 1 (26:25):
And then later not late in his life, but later in
his life he actually left theSouthern Baptist Convention
altogether over the issue ofwomen's ordination.

Speaker 4 (26:34):
That's right.
And so Maranatha, I guess, isan independent or associated
with some other group, but heyou're talking about earlier
that he didn't really have aconstituency, he didn't have a
following, but he received 95%of the African-American vote
which he had never really takenan overt stand in the civil
rights movement.

(26:54):
But two things that always cameto mind was when his father died
and he left the Navy, came backto run the Carter Warehouse,
pino Warehouse.
There was a movement thenbecause of Brown v Board for
segregation and so forth inschools and there was a group
called the White Citizen Council.
That were the folks that didn'twear sheets during the day but
probably did at night and theycame to him in the warehouse and

(27:16):
handed him an application tojoin the White Citizen Council
because he was a leader of thecommunity.
And he took the application.
The story goes and the lastthing the guy heard was him
flushing it down the toilet inthe office.
And he made it very clear whenhe chose Andrew Young to be the
first African-American to be theambassador to the UN.

(27:37):
In fact, when he went to AndrewYoung, he says you should get
somebody like Barbara Jordanfrom Texas or whatever.
He says no, and he says why me?
He says you knew Dr Kingpersonally, so that's who you're
going to.
You know.
And he had Daddy King, mlk'ssenior lead, the invocation at
the Democratic Convention in 76.
And I remember watching as akid, a young man, and there and

(27:59):
it was in New York, and therewere these sea of delegates and
Daddy King gets up and you knowmost people are thinking head
bowed.
Daddy King looks up in thisloud, thunderous voice, oh God.
And he started talking to Godin a prayer and you could just
see all these heads popping uplike what's this?
And President Carter,president-elect, was just there,

(28:21):
that famous grin, that famoussmile on his face.
So he paid homage to the factthat he had gotten 95%, which
was a dealmaker, because youwere referring to how close it
was.
It was so close like two orthree million votes across the
whole country, and they werevery loyal.
The blacks were to him, and sohe reciprocated in ways.

Speaker 3 (28:41):
I think at that convention Coretta King and
Jesse Jackson and others joined.
I think they did.
I think they did yes.

Speaker 4 (28:49):
Because he did not come out during his early years
as either a senator or governorwhen he was running.
No, right.
But you're talking about.
He was humble and he didn'tlike to make deals, but at
points he would work the plan,work the system.
Because when he ran in 70, Ithink it was for governor he
didn't really say much aboutcivil rights, so he was kind of

(29:15):
hedging his bets with the goodold boy system in Georgia.
But then, on the steps in hisinaugural address, that famous
line the time of racialdiscrimination in Georgia is
over, and you could feel theeyes pop up because behind him
it's all white.
Ben Fortson, in fact, issitting in his wheelchair,
secretary of State, and you cansee they're like oh, so he knew
how to play the system at thetime.

Speaker 1 (29:35):
Yeah, you mentioned how sometimes, when you use
words like saved and born againwas one of the key terms.

Speaker 4 (29:43):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (29:44):
The mainstream media sometimes did not know how to
deal.
These were not common terms.

Speaker 4 (29:48):
Not a clue.

Speaker 1 (29:49):
People weren't familiar with this and I
encourage our listeners and allof you to go on YouTube and
search, and I wish I rememberedthe name of the very famous
broadcaster.
But there is a news reportsaying they're called
evangelicals.
Jimmy Carter claims to be oneand we found out that this is

(30:09):
not a rare thing and it was likethey were interviewing aliens,
right.
And the news report was justlike hey, we just found this
whole new group that we neverknew about.

Speaker 4 (30:19):
It was because it was northern establishment kind of
media, all things southern,became the thing at this point.

Speaker 1 (30:25):
Yeah, and I thought that was very interesting.
And here's one of theprovocative points that I want
to bring up, and I actuallyshared this with Dr Terry on the
golf course.
But I think you can make a casethat Jimmy Carter is
responsible for the rise of thereligious right in the United
States.

Speaker 4 (30:42):
I hadn't thought of that until you explained that.

Speaker 2 (30:44):
Yeah, my first response is no.
But yeah explain your theoryhere.

Speaker 1 (30:50):
Before Carter, conservative Christians,
evangelicals, were largelyisolationists.
They were largely politics issomething that's worldly, we
don't get involved, that'ssomething that we just leave and
we focus on heaven, and so theywere not particularly involved.
Carter's presidency kind oflegitimized, you know,

(31:11):
christians in politics and theycame out and supported Carter
but quickly became disenchantedwith his policies that he.
You know some of the things.
Carter was in support of theERA and had the National
Conference for Women and werevery disappointed in some of the
policies and points that werebeing made there.
Carter was personally opposedto abortion but did not think

(31:35):
that the government should getinvolved.
There are many things aboutpolicy and Carter's faith that
he thought that Baptist versionof separation of church and
state and so the Christians whohad said, hey, we want to get
our Christian views, what aboutGod?
And very quickly turned over tothe moralal Majority and Jerry
Falwell's organization and youcan see where the Republican
Party quickly rallied, thisgroup that was kind of a new

(31:56):
voting bloc and very effectivelybrought them over to the other
side.
This is where you see theSouthern shift after the Carter
years.
And so even though Carterbrings Christians into the
voting booths, he doesn't holdthem and so you can—.

Speaker 4 (32:10):
That's the bo-weevil Democrats, the ones that were
Democrats that became Republican.
Complete shift over yeah.

Speaker 1 (32:17):
Dr Bailey pondering over here, trying to decide
whether that's a worthyassessment or not.

Speaker 3 (32:21):
I mean I think there's more to it than that,
but I think he was definitely inoffice when some of that switch
happened.
I think I would owe more of theswitch to like Roe v Wade and
busing and kind ofa perceivedview of the Democrats in general
as first of all being in favorof civil rights but also soft on
communists, and I don't thinkhe did much to dissuade

(32:43):
evangelicals and fundamentalists.
If that was the case, you'reright that he caught them
originally but didn't hold them.
I think there were other forcesat work.
Yeah, that makes sense.

Speaker 2 (32:51):
Although I mean.
The part that I find mostpersuasive is the idea that it
showed maybe evangelicals thatsomebody who has this philosophy
can win national office right,can run for office and be
successful, even though that'snot what you know Jerry Falwell
or someone did.
They used other politicians to,and I'd say that's how most

(33:14):
evangelicals still are engagedin politics is by choosing
people who support their beliefs.

Speaker 1 (33:21):
Pat Robertson tried yeah.

Speaker 2 (33:22):
He did.

Speaker 1 (33:24):
Yeah that's a good point, christy.
So, steve, you and I need toaddress the elephant in the room
, though you know we've beensaying mostly good things about
Carter.
We got you know in 70 years,carter is the only president who
did not golf.

Speaker 4 (33:38):
That's right.
He was a tennis player.
That's right, he ran a jogger.

Speaker 1 (33:41):
He thought it was very elitist.
I said he's never golfed at ourcourse you would think
otherwise, wouldn't you?
That's right.
But he did not golf, he did notlike the message that it sent.
That's true.
I know that's a funny step.

Speaker 4 (33:52):
It made me realize when you're talking about his
inability to work, he had thissort of righteous attitude.
That here's my idea.
But Tip O'Neill, who I thinkstill holds the record of the
longest reigning speaker of theHouse, served with and under a
number of presidents and theyasked him near the end of his
career to assess his presidentsand he said JFK, I loved him

(34:16):
like a brother.
Lbj, if it weren't for Vietnam.
Nixon, he said I served in theHouse with him, played poker
with him and he never paid offhis poker bets.
So I don't trust him.

Speaker 3 (34:26):
And then he got to Ford and he simply so.
I don't trust him.

Speaker 4 (34:28):
And then he got to Ford and he simply said the
right person for the time.
And then he got to Carter andhe said the most intelligent.
But then he went on to explainhow difficult it was to work
with him, because after theelection they come in the
leadership's sitting around witha prayer breakfast and the
breakfast they normally had, Iassume, was quite lavish and it
was like finger food.

(34:48):
I mean, everybody's looking atthe table and he leans over.
One of the gentlemen says youknow, mr President, we won the
election.
So I don't know if he was ableto work well with the northern
or national Democrats as well,because he did come in with that
kind of attitude.
I know what I'm going to do andthis is what we need to do.

Speaker 1 (35:07):
I would imagine that's a challenge for anyone
who's governor that you kind ofhave learned how to govern,
which is a very positive traitto have.

Speaker 4 (35:18):
But if you have the network of relationships and
that elitism, you know, I don'tplay golf, I'm not an elitist.
It's like I'm not going to workwith this old system the way it
was.
We're going to do somethingdifferent.

Speaker 1 (35:26):
I remember that was something that was maybe
different about Bill Clinton,that he was a governor of a tiny
little state, absolutely.
But there were all those FOBsout there, right, friends of
Bill.
He had this whole network thathe had developed over the years,
which is very different fromwhat Carter had, I think.
What haven't we talked aboutyet that we need to say he was a
low?

Speaker 3 (35:43):
church guy.
Right, what I mean?
He was kind of a low church guy.
Oh very much.
I mean Baptist and I mean, buthe personally I think he brought
that sensibility into the fact.
You know he wouldn't have afancy breakfast.

Speaker 4 (35:53):
No alcohol.

Speaker 3 (36:01):
And he got rid of the presidential yacht which was
used to take people out and makedeals and so on.
And I think in general you wereasking earlier about is it
interesting that he waspluralistic.
But I think that his emphasison human rights and his emphasis
on religion being somethingthat the individual themselves
has to decide for themselves isconsistent with that.
So he wasn't threatening tomore secular folks, I think

(36:24):
because he was inclusive in hisreligiosity folks.
I think because he wasinclusive in his religiosity and
he did sort of make adistinction between in part I
think, between, as you said,with abortion what he personally
believed and what he thoughtwas appropriate for government
to do.
But a lot of that comes fromhim personally having those low
church sensibilities I think.

Speaker 1 (36:43):
What would faith in the United States look like
today, had the low church folksand I'm not terribly low church,
but I'll include myself in thisyou know, took on a
Carter-esque type of approach tofaith American?

Speaker 3 (36:57):
exceptionalism would play out very differently
because he just wasn'ttriumphalist at all and that's,
I think, one of the biggestdifferences between how he used
religion and how others do, oneof the biggest differences
between how he used religion andhow others do.
I think others see the UnitedStates as especially blessed and
having the favor of God andtherefore issued a kind of
warrant to do whatever it wantsin the world, and I think he saw
the United States as hopefullybeing an agent for bringing

(37:19):
about human rights.
For others it was more humble,but I think people in this
country they don't appreciatethe prophet coming in and
telling us how we're failing andfalling short.
They appreciate being told thatwe're chosen.
It might have been the rightmoment for post-Watergate, but
that type of attitude has neverplayed out very much, especially

(37:39):
now.

Speaker 1 (37:40):
He talked about the United States being in a moment
of malaise.
I think that was the term thathe used.

Speaker 3 (37:43):
He didn't use that term.

Speaker 1 (37:45):
Oh, did he not.

Speaker 3 (37:45):
No, he did not use the term, but the speech became
associated with that.
I think maybe a pollster at thetime described it as a speech
that addresses the malaise ofthe country, and that is what
the reporters picked up.
Wow.

Speaker 4 (38:00):
It's never in there.
He also made the remark that itwasn't the United States that
created human rights.
It was human rights thatcreated the United States.

Speaker 1 (38:06):
That was one of the quotes I did not use.
It was a little bit too.
Obviously Carter, not the DalaiLama, but that may have fit
into?

Speaker 4 (38:12):
where in the world has he been the most effective
or most influential?
It was Africa.
You're talking about low church.
He's in the villages.
He's walking around holdingchildren that are getting
treated for the eye blindness,river blindness and all that.
But that may have played intothat.
But when he was a child, hisfather, james Sr, would not
allow blacks to come to hisfront porch, front door, and so

(38:35):
the bishop of the I think it wasthe African Methodist Episcopal
would always park, his driverwould park in front and Mr
Carter would come out to him.
But when Miss Lillian was homeby herself, they came to the
front door because she was anurse and you know.
You see that sort of low churchto use that phrase, to be humble
with people, to be the same.

(38:55):
Because he said that whengrowing up his true friends were
the children that worked forhis father, the African-American
kids, that he really didn'thave any white buddies growing
up and he stayed over the familyand so forth and so on.
But the connection to him toAfrica he's got to be thought of
almost as a godlike person overthere with what he has done
almost not single-handedly, butat the Carter Center.

Speaker 1 (39:18):
Yes, and just a little side note we've been
using the term low church a lotand what we really mean by that
is kind of the Baptist and thecommunity church folks without a
lot of liturgy, without muchformality or pomp.
What Without pomp?
Without pomp, yeah, and thiswould kind of be in contrast to
Catholicism and Episcopalianismand it would be more high church
, much more formal, much moreliturgical and more pomp in the

(39:44):
way that they do things pomp inthe way that they do things.

Speaker 3 (39:50):
People definitely turned away against that with
Reagan, who is a thespian, afterall, and loved all the
trappings of glory andpatriotism.

Speaker 1 (39:54):
And I'll try not to do this in a supercritical way
and I don't want us to gethypercritical but there is a
difference in the way our formerand soon-to-be president
approaches life in terms of verymuch all the pomp, right, it's
like Nixon's the imperialpresidency, when he wanted the
special uniforms for thepresidential guard and the
Reagans coming in with the China, the White House, china and all

(40:18):
the friends from Hollywood thatwere there with him.

Speaker 4 (40:20):
But, yeah, definitely much more pompous.

Speaker 2 (40:24):
So I had just finished reading the book that
Carter wrote when he was 90,where he is I think it's called
A Full Life where he looks back.

Speaker 1 (40:33):
And actually it was only nine-tenths of a life.

Speaker 2 (40:36):
But I didn't realize, apparently, when he went to
Poland during his presidency andmet the chancellor there who
was communist at the timeobviously, and you know they
were having a private meetingand you know the Polish leader
is like, yeah, my mom'sChristian, but you know
communists aren't.
And Jimmy Carter asked himwould you like to accept Jesus?

(41:00):
And I had never heard thatstory before.
It's just proselytizing inPoland.

Speaker 1 (41:05):
It's funny you should say that because it wasn't that
story.
But yesterday on CNN somebodysaid oh, but he let people be
who they were and we've kind ofhad that little tone too right
that he was very interfaith.
But then someone corrected andsaid but he did proselytize, he
did try to get people to acceptJesus as a Savior, which is
again a very Baptist thing to do.
That's awesome and you know, Iguess he's always been, you know

(41:29):
, kind of a quiet hero of mine.
But when I think about you knowwhat I'm hoping to do on Church
Potluck in terms of, you know,still be very well grounded in
Christian faith and promote, youknow, devotion to Jesus while
still exploring all thedifferences, he's kind of like
an icon for us to look at, totry to hold both those things
together somehow.
Well, have we not said aboutJimmy Carter that we need to say

(41:51):
about Jimmy Carter?

Speaker 4 (41:52):
I like the family walking behind the horse-drawn
coffin to mimic his presidentialwalk with Rosalind and Amy when
they walked to the, I think itwas the Rotunda, I assume
somewhere in that area.
I guess, other than Jefferson,he's the only president to ever
walk the presidentialinauguration.

Speaker 1 (42:11):
But going back to that.
I vaguely I was only 11, but Ido remember that there was
concern about that.
Some people were saying howcool, what a symbol that is.
But also, hey, he was, yeah, hewas.

Speaker 4 (42:19):
Walter Cronkite was just aghast because it was live
and he says what he's out of thecar you know, and so that was
definitely something like you.
Going back to the pomp andcircumstance, that was something
that we just weren't used toafter the Ford Nixon era.

Speaker 3 (42:35):
I think it'd be impossible to talk about this
man, either in his presidency orafterwards, without emphasizing
that he was so profoundlydevoted to peace and would do
anything, you know, to securethat peace and didn't really
care about, I think, the gloryof the country or, to some
extent, sometimes, hisreputation.
He really just he was concernedabout the end result and so if

(43:00):
bloodshed was spared, that iswhat he was devoted to.
And whether or not that's whatyou want in a leader is an
ongoing question.
The question you asked earliernot that's what you want in a
leader is an ongoing question.
The question you asked earlier.
I mean do you want someone whois willing to set that ahead of
national reputation and futurepower?
It's an ongoing question.

Speaker 1 (43:17):
When I think about that, with the Iranian hostage
crisis right, that Carter wasall about negotiation.
What 400 plus days?
What can we do to make surethat this is resolved without
bloodshed?
And he did, Reagan, I will notnegotiate with terrorists, right
.
And there's the flat line, andit's two very different
approaches to how you handle asituation, but he was

(43:37):
negotiating with them up until,literally, the inauguration of
Reagan and got them out.

Speaker 3 (43:42):
Yeah, and the irony of all that, of course, is that
he was willing to use militaryforce to at least secure the
hostages, and that was a verysad incident.
Maybe, the first use of DeltaForce as a working unit and just
again, bad circumstances.
It seemed to be kind of theepitome of Carter's presidency.
It was well-intended, it waswell thought through and just
circumstances beyond his controlmade it impossible.

(44:03):
It was well thought through andjust circumstances beyond his
control made it impossible.
But it did reveal that theUnited States was willing to put
its military into play, despitethe emphasis on peace, and I
can't help but think that helpedget the hostages out eventually
.
That he was willing to use.

(44:24):
The message was out there, thecountry was in general, yeah,
yeah.

Speaker 1 (44:25):
Wow Great the country was in general.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, right, andyou emphasize peace and I think
about again post-presidency, buteverything on human rights, but
everything you did with Habitatfor Humanity, right, oh yeah,
just diving into thatwholeheartedly and how his
connection with Habitat forHumanity, which starts just a
little bit away from Plains inAmerica's Georgia but then ends
up becoming this internationalphenomenon and just really

(44:47):
committed to that and, like yousaid, in Africa, all the events
you said you had a friend who'svery committed.

Speaker 3 (44:53):
Yeah, so this is coming back from break now, and
over break I went to Texas to goto Big Bend National Park and
went with a good buddy and I'vebeen more or less sick since
break and I'm still.
You can tell it is I don't havethe exuberance, I'm still
recovering from it, but one ofthe manifestations of that was I
had a severe case of laryngitisand so it was great for my

(45:19):
friend.

Speaker 4 (45:19):
It was the first time we were ever together.

Speaker 3 (45:21):
And I would whisper questions and he was more than
willing to sort of fill in thegap and I learned and this is
the truth, I learned so muchabout my friend.
I did not know and I knew hewas involved in a ministry
called Ancora Ministry.
I didn't know his role instarting it by himself, but I
would encourage all of thelisteners honestly to check out
Ancora Ministry.
It's a Latin word Ancora foranchor, but you can see it by

(45:44):
going to the websitefeedkidsrightnowcom.
But you can see it by going tothe website feedkidsrightnowcom.
And all this ministry isdevoted to is bringing school
children food for the weekendand the evenings that they
wouldn't have otherwise in Texas, but also families in Guatemala
and in terms of messaging, thatis the message.
That is the form ofproselytizing, is just the

(46:06):
service to these children and hedoesn't even meet the kids.
It's through a third agent andI just saw where he works and he
spends so much time trying tomaximize food for every penny
and it's actually worth checkingout and maybe giving him a
boost.

Speaker 1 (46:23):
Very cool, thank you.
That's impressive and it isinteresting and I think that
this reflection, this nationalreflection that we're having
with Carter's passing, is justreminding me of the various ways
that all come back to humbleservanthood.
But it's, you know, the feedingof people, the environmental
care, the building of houses,the efforts at peace, just it.
Really his tentacles do stretchin many different directions,

(46:47):
but they all come back to thisidea of humble service for the
greater good of people.

Speaker 3 (46:50):
And election integrity too.
That was another emphasis.
You know what?

Speaker 1 (46:54):
You tend to forget these things and so hopefully so
.
Do you think that this is maybea little blip because of his
passing, or do you think thatover time that maybe there will
be some greater, maybe that hispost-presidency will start to
seep into our understanding ofhis presidency in ways that that
he's seen with a little morepresidential reverence, or maybe
not?

Speaker 3 (47:13):
I think that he's never going to be seen as a
great president.
Really, to be a great presidentyou have to address some very
massive problem successfully andhe wasn't faced with that kind
of massive war or depression.
But the crises he was facedwith he kind of muddled through.
But I think that peoplerealizing that it you know that

(47:33):
it was circumstances that causedthe real problems of that
presidency as much as hischaracter.
So I think he'll be consideredto be a middle of the road
president.

Speaker 2 (47:41):
And I do think I mean one of his greatest
achievements, I do think, is theCamp David Accords.
But given all of the tension inIsrael and the Middle East
right now, it's even hard to seethat, as you know, having been
fulfilled or being the start ofa path towards peace.
Yeah, it's hard to imagine ahuge re-envision.

Speaker 1 (48:04):
Yeah, I think that's probably right, Dr Terry.
Any last thoughts before wesign off here before we sign off
here.

Speaker 4 (48:12):
I was talking to a colleague the other day and I
just said that I'm just notconvinced we'll ever see his
likes again.
From humble beginnings to whathe did in the post-presidency,
it's almost beyond imaginationthat somebody could do what he
has done or even come close toit.
So that will be his legacy, nodoubt Very good.

Speaker 1 (48:30):
Thank you.
So how was it for your firsttime?
Very enjoyable, well, good.
Yes, thank you to all of youfor coming out and I hope you're
feeling better, sir.
Thank you, I can tell there'sjust a little down there.
I want to thank our audiencefor sitting around the table.
Hopefully you're in warmerconditions Then.
I hope we have provided youwith some food for thought and
given you something to chew on.
But we aren't done yet.
After we finish the music, wealways have some leftovers for

(48:53):
you to enjoy.
We have some additionalthoughts we share with one
another after we wrap up.
So feel free to continuelistening and hopefully we're
going to get some much moreregular here.
I got some things in my lifehopefully straightened out and
not that there was any terriblething, but just over committed
and hopefully we'll get someregular podcasts going this
semester.
So looking forward to thatgoing this semester.
So looking forward to that.
If you have a chance to rateand review us, please do that.

Speaker 3 (49:22):
But until we gather around the table next time.
This has been Church Potluck.
Thanks for listening, so I'mgoing to say it again.
It's feedkidsrightnowcom, andthe website name just says
exactly what this is about.
I'm very inspired by this andit is in, I think, keeping with
Jimmy Carter's heart as well.

Speaker 1 (49:42):
Absolutely, and I think you said it right the
first time.

Speaker 2 (49:45):
Very good.
How did y'all learn of Carter'spassing?
Did like a notification come upon your phone.

Speaker 1 (49:55):
I think I saw a Facebook meme.
Oh, that's where I did see itBefore I saw my New York Times
breaking news.

Speaker 4 (50:02):
It was something that came up on my phone.
That's exactly what it was.
I said something to my wifeabout it.

Speaker 1 (50:07):
And it was very unsurprising.
It was like, oh, it's happenedyeah.

Speaker 4 (50:11):
Did you hear they asked him about before he went
into hospice?
His goal was to live past MrsCarter, that he did not want to
leave her alone.

Speaker 1 (50:22):
And I thought, wow, it kind of sounds selfish.

Speaker 2 (50:26):
I want to live older than my spouse.

Speaker 1 (50:28):
Like so many things in life, it depends on your
motivations for wanting that itwon't leave her alone.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (50:33):
And I do believe she was having memory issues towards
the end.

Speaker 4 (50:36):
Family was very private and I think people more
or less respected that.

Speaker 1 (50:41):
That was interesting.
I didn't read the full article,but I saw there was an article
about how Amy Carter has chosena very private life.

Speaker 4 (50:49):
Most of the Carter kids in one way or another,
because I had forgotten thenames of the sons.
I'd forgotten that there was aJack, I mean Chip and Jeff and
all that sort of stuff.
I forgot there were sons.

Speaker 1 (51:00):
I just remember Amy going to public school.

Speaker 2 (51:03):
One of them just ran for governor like not that long
ago.

Speaker 1 (51:06):
Jason Verger, you know what that's a grandson, I
guess.
But still I forgot about thattoo.
I've got his bumper sticker onsomething in my garage.
Somebody said who's that?

Speaker 4 (51:19):
And I said, therein lies the problem and it didn't
warrant being put up on yourstudy next to the Carter
campaign poster.

Speaker 2 (51:27):
I was so far about putting stuff up, and stickers
were not allowed, oh so there isa former Barry Dean who is
convinced that Jimmy Carterdecided to run for president
while visiting Barry College,krishnadeer.

Speaker 1 (51:40):
Krishnadeer, yeah, I actually texted him last night
because he sent me a picture ofwhen Carter was on campus.
I know that part and I said I'mhaving trouble finding the
verification.
He gave me some sources.
I haven't looked into them yet.

Speaker 4 (51:52):
So what was the event that motivated him so?

Speaker 2 (51:54):
he was here in 1966 for I don't know, barry was
hosting something and he metBurt Lance, who was from Calhoun
yeah, and becomes a big friendof his raises money for his
campaign.

Speaker 1 (52:08):
So that's verified.
He met Burt Lance here In 1966.

Speaker 2 (52:11):
Yeah, even if he didn't make the decision here,
then that's so.

Speaker 1 (52:15):
that is the you can definitely say that was the
catapult there.

Speaker 2 (52:18):
Yeah, he was the budget guy.
Right.
Yeah apparently he got.
Banks yeah, and had to leaveearly on in the Carter
presidency and Carter dug in tosupport him and it.

Speaker 4 (52:28):
Hurt him oh his poll numbers dropped tremendously
because of that.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (52:34):
Let me tell you my Habitat for Humanity story about
my son and I don't rememberexactly his age, but somewhere
probably between five and seven.
And we go to Habitat forHumanity and we first watched
two videos, one that was kind ofthe domestic building that
happened and one was theinternational building, and they
were both lots of joy, butespecially the International one

(52:56):
.
That's just the exuberance thatwhen people had their homes,
just the crying and just sograteful.
And so my children are watchingthis.
And then, after you go out andhave you all, did you all ever
go to the Habitat for Humanityheadquarters?
They had about 20 differenthomes on site that reflected the

(53:17):
different homes that were builtin different parts of the world
.
Oh, and most of these weretwo-room buildings, Right, Not
two bedrooms, just two rooms.
You know, maybe twice the sizeof my office here, Wow, Maybe a
little bit bigger, but not much.
And so we're walking around andmy son just looks up at me.
My little five seven-year-oldsays Daddy, is this what they

(53:40):
were so excited about?
And I said that's exactly right, and you could just see his
mind spinning in terms of thatthis is something super special
for some folks.

Speaker 4 (53:52):
What he had and what they were.
Yeah, oh, wow Is this whatthey're excited about.

Speaker 1 (53:57):
Yeah, it was just one of those special moments that
you see your child realizesomething.

Speaker 4 (54:01):
There was a story where he and President and Mrs
Carter, the post-presidents theywere in Nepal, tibet, wherever
and they caught him watchingthese people, these ladies,
coming back with bundles ofsticks and he says watch this.
And he says that's their chore.
They go out and hours longlooking for it because it's a
treeless area.
And he immediately turned toRosalind and says and think

(54:23):
about what we burned at the farm.
You know the clearing up, andthat was their day's fuel.
And he said think about what.
So he was always going back.
Is this what they get excitedabout?
Yeah, and this is what we burnup, cleaning up the fields or
whatnot.
That's cool.
Yeah that's cool, had you seenhis house.
I mean, you can't see it fromthe road, just pretty well.

Speaker 1 (54:45):
No, there's also a really big peanut there, though
we took a picture right next tothe humongous white peanut.

Speaker 4 (54:52):
When we went to his church service I asked somebody
at the church.
I said you know we're stayingin Americas, but where can we
get lunch?
Plains is small even comparedto Cave Spring.
And they said really theylaughed that's hard to do.

Speaker 3 (55:05):
It really is.

Speaker 4 (55:06):
They said there's really only one place and it's
called it's either Mom's,Mother's or something of the
sort downtown.
So I think it was when my momand stepdad went with us and we
walked in and they showed us tothe table and all of a sudden
you hear something.
It is the only place for Sundaylunch and here comes the
Carters and they of course havea room in the back.
It's nothing fancy, but theyobviously privacy and they spoke

(55:28):
to everybody and everybodyrespected their privacy.
Nobody got up and wanted to.
Selfies didn't exist then, butstill, I just thought this is
where he came back home.

Speaker 2 (55:36):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (55:37):
And it never crossed their mind to go elsewhere.
They're coming back home Everytime they went somewhere, always
back home, and yet he still hadthat global influence.
Absolutely yeah.
Some foreign dignitary came andvisited them in their little
ranch-style home.
They enclosed the carport forhis office slash woodshop and
they were getting ready.
It was somebody very famous.
I can't recall who it was, butit was global in its connection

(56:00):
and they went in to have lunchand they sat down and they were
drinking out of Burger Kingplastic cups and I thought this
could be it.
My mom and stepdad said thisbecause they never threw
anything away and they neverthought about putting on the
ritz because of who they were.
It's what.
This is what we do, so this iswhat you're going to do.
You're never going to see thatagain.

Speaker 2 (56:21):
Yeah, one of the stories he told in his book is
after being elected they visitthe White House and they're
talking to the servants who willbe cooking meals and explaining
like do you think you can cookfood that we will like?
And they're like oh yeah, wemake that all the time for the
servants.

Speaker 3 (56:37):
For us.

Speaker 4 (56:38):
Yeah, for us.
So I thought that was great.
That's cool.
I had thought about that.
This is what we eat.

Speaker 1 (56:44):
Now I have heard that I don't know if it was Jimmy
and Rosalyn or it was justRosalyn were not terribly
ingratiating to the staff, thatthere was a bit of a formality
and coldness even.

Speaker 2 (56:57):
I haven't, I don't know, it doesn't seem to fit.

Speaker 4 (57:01):
He had a very complex personality, though I mean that
wouldn't surprise me.

Speaker 3 (57:04):
I mean, he was not.
I don't think of Jimmy Carteras having a great sense of humor
right.
And I think he had that kind ofsmile that won people over.
But I think he was known asbeing cold and prickly in a lot
of ways and I don't know if hehad a lot of really close
friends in the way that you knowBill Clinton was friends with
everyone Too many people yeah.

(57:25):
So too many people.
That's right.
So I think in some sense maybe,as Tip O'Neill pointed out, he
wasn't the most likable.
I mean, Tip O'Neill lovedReagan.
They would just hang out anddrink and chat and tell stories
and talk about their Irishbackground or whatever.

Speaker 4 (57:40):
That's true.

Speaker 3 (57:41):
And Jimmy Carter just wouldn't have it.
He would pray over you.

Speaker 1 (57:44):
So that's interesting .
It's interesting.
So Carter maybe did it more outof principle, whereas some of
this happens out of relationship.

Speaker 4 (57:51):
Oh, that's good some of this happens out of
relationship.

Speaker 1 (57:52):
Oh, that's good.

Speaker 4 (57:53):
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, he probably had very goodfriends, but very few friends
Close friends, interesting.

Speaker 1 (58:00):
So what did Andre think of the experience?

Speaker 2 (58:03):
He didn't say a whole lot about it.
I think he thought that he waslike I mean, you know, neither
of my kids love history the wayI do?
They're both verynon-historical, but I do think
he felt like this is a part ofhistory that I am experiencing.
So, that was nice.

Speaker 1 (58:19):
Did he say how long he had to stand in line?
That was the longest lines ever.

Speaker 2 (58:23):
He did not say but he sent me a picture and he's like
yeah, I think I might get up tothe viewing area in about 20
minutes.
Did that surprise?

Speaker 4 (58:33):
you, I mean to the viewing area in about 20 minutes
.
Yeah, maybe 30 minutes or so.
Did that surprise you?
I mean, we're talking about himbeing a middle-of-the-road
president, which is accurate,but the number of people coming
to pay respects?
They were lined up.
I think they were closing therotund at a certain time.
They were standing out infreezing weather.

Speaker 2 (58:46):
Yeah snow, oh snow yeah, and they were.

Speaker 4 (58:47):
I mean, as far y'all been all these years, we're
talking about doing the rightthing without a political payoff
.

Speaker 3 (58:56):
So just one small aspect of that would be and this
was I can't remember, I'membarrassed to say I don't
remember if this is in the Timesor CNN recently, but there was
kind of a review of his policytowards migrants and how, after
the Vietnam War, he opened updramatically number of migrants
from Southeast Asia who couldcome per month Tremendously.

Speaker 1 (59:16):
So is this when the Cambodians?

Speaker 3 (59:18):
I think it was a little bit before, but yeah,
because my mother-in-law wasvery involved with Cambodian
refugees, cambodians andVietnamese both, and one of my
dear friends from grade schoolcame over on a boat and so I
don't know if she was part ofthat wave.
But regardless, I'm grateful,but that is not going to pay off

(59:38):
at the poll.

Speaker 4 (59:43):
No, and he was told that.
He was told that the Americanpeople do not want this and they
did whatever they did in the70s as far as polling, and he
said it was basically I thinkthat was the title of his book
Do the Right Thing, he said thisis where we're going and it was
like I how to do the rightthing.
He said this is where we'regoing and it was like I forgot
like a 70% increase or something.

Speaker 3 (59:55):
It was dramatic.

Speaker 4 (59:56):
It was huge.
I'd forgotten about that.

Speaker 2 (59:58):
But it was Southeast Asia, a Vietnam legacy by the
way, yeah, yeah, same with himpardoning Vietnam draft
resistors as soon as he becomespresident.

Speaker 4 (01:00:09):
And Ford had started that and they had his statue in
the rotunda last night.

Speaker 2 (01:00:12):
Oh really.

Speaker 4 (01:00:13):
Yeah, on purpose, making sure that it was brought
out, or at least because oftheir close relationship, they
developed that from that.

Speaker 1 (01:00:20):
That'd be cool to make a list of all the things
that Carter decided that did nothave a political payoff.
You know, or done withoutknowing that there would be.

Speaker 3 (01:00:31):
He was very good for the environment.
He was good for the environmentas governor of Georgia, and
you're talking about him notbeing on golf courses, but the
dude was on the Georgia riversand I mean just almost
religiously and canoeing.
He was a huge outdoorsman andhe helped make I think it's the
Chattahoochee river in Atlanta.
Be a national, I don't thinkit's a monument, but like a

(01:00:54):
wildlife.
Yeah, that's right Receive somesort of national park
designation.

Speaker 4 (01:00:57):
Oh, and Cumberland Island.
He was responsible for itbecoming national seashore.

Speaker 3 (01:01:00):
But that's not going to get tons of voters You're
going to have some you knowenvironmentalists who are very
impressed by that.
I love it, but it's not goingto win you over if you have high
inflation, do you?

Speaker 4 (01:01:09):
remember he also did that in Alaska.

Speaker 3 (01:01:11):
Yes, right, yes, that's right.

Speaker 4 (01:01:13):
And he caught grief from Alaskans that he was
protected because even though hemade it national whatever and
now they're seeing his praisesbecause of what they have and
you know.
So you're right, no politicalpayoff there, but for the right
reasons.

Speaker 1 (01:01:27):
Something that sounds to me conservative.
He also is kind of known as achampion of deregulation,
especially transportationindustry Airlines.

Speaker 4 (01:01:37):
Yeah, at&t Southern Bell.
I guess I think at the time ofcommunications Was it the Carter
administration that broke upthe Bell.
That's what I'm trying to think.
I can't remember.

Speaker 3 (01:01:45):
I know they negotiated it.
Henry Kirsberg, who was one ofhis speech writers and then
later became editor at the NewYorker.
He writes about how, whenCarter was going through this
process of deregulation it was,you know he listened to a lot of
experts and he thought it wasthe right thing to do.
So he moved forward.
Is that he gave a speech, andso they set this giant stack of

(01:02:08):
papers on his desk and what theyasked him to do was to push the
papers into a, you know rubbishbin.
And so he gets up there and hesays my staff has prepared this
prop.
It's just really blank papersyou know, but you know he just
would not play that game.
He was not a thespian, you know, but he would try to explain

(01:02:29):
why, for the reasons ofefficiency, it was the right
thing to do, but you know hejust wouldn't do that
Reagan-esque type of thing.
You know we should do thisbecause, yeah, that's right.

Speaker 2 (01:02:39):
And I do think he was .
I mean another way he'sconservative in some ways, is
fiscally right.

Speaker 1 (01:02:44):
He wasn't poor, he was big on the balance budget.

Speaker 3 (01:02:45):
yeah, and he built up the military.
That's true, dramatically, youknow, and so that was.
Of all the claims that Reaganmade against him, I think that
was the one that he found mostpersonally hurtful was the claim
that he had made the UnitedStates weaker when he did build
up the military a fair bit andhe just felt like he didn't get
credit.

Speaker 4 (01:03:03):
It's kind of ironic that he was a graduate of the
Naval Academy and served on thefirst experimental.
And Reagan made movies for theArmy, but that was his World War
II service movies for the Army,but that was his World War II
service.

Speaker 1 (01:03:17):
It's kind of surprising how little the naval
service plays into the personaof who Carter is, even though
I'm sure it was very formative.

Speaker 4 (01:03:23):
He was in there for like eight years and Mrs Carter
did not want to leave that life.
They drove back when his fatherdied of pancreatic cancer which
has been the ruin of theirfamily and I think they had one
son, maybe at the time, but thelittle boy said that he was
their intermediary.
She would not speak to herhusband the entire drive from

(01:03:44):
wherever they were maybe Norfolkor wherever to Plains, Because
she loved the life of theensigns, so I guess he was a
lieutenant at that time.
The social aspect of it.
She'd go back to tiny littleplanes, but they said they never
went to bed mad.
I find that difficult in 77years.

Speaker 2 (01:04:05):
Sometimes you start those arguments late at night,
is this?

Speaker 1 (01:04:08):
count as today, dear and this is another topic for
another day, but I've never beena subscriber to that.
It's like go to bed mad and ifyou wake up mad then you should
talk about it I like that, butso often I'd wake up and say
what was I mad about?

Speaker 4 (01:04:23):
It's a good thing.
I didn't bring it up because Ican't even remember why I'm mad.
That's funny.
Thank you all very much.

Speaker 1 (01:04:30):
I'm going to do my best to try to get this up and
out quickly.

Speaker 2 (01:04:33):
Thank you for asking me.
You made it sound more Georgia.
It was good having you here.

Speaker 1 (01:04:38):
We'll have to figure out some other topics.
Do you know anything else youcan talk about?
No, that's it.
That's the breadth and width ofmy knowledge.
Thank you all so much.

Speaker 4 (01:04:50):
The accent.
I don't think that I have aterribly southern accent.
So years ago my wife and sonand I took a van trip.
We drove through New England.
We stopped in New Hampshire.
My wife goes into a conveniencestore and she comes out
laughing.
She doesn't have a terriblesense of humor.
She comes out and I said what'sfunny?
She said the ladies in therewere just having a hoot with my
accent and she said you have togo in.

(01:05:10):
I my accent and she said youhave to go in.
I said you've got what we need.

Speaker 1 (01:05:14):
She says no, I told them if you think I have an
accent, so we're still recording.
Let me tell you real quick thefirst time my parents come down
to visit me here and it wasn't afood line, it was like a red
line or something like that, itwas a grocery store and someone
gets on the intercom and saysyou know, we need Jimmy on aisle
six.
And my dad starts Jimmy onaisle six.
I said that's not just theperson talking that is everybody

(01:05:38):
here?

Speaker 2 (01:05:39):
This is the exit you have in northwest Georgia this
is how people talk, and hewasn't being malicious in it, no
, just thought it was funny yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:05:47):
I said everyone around you.
Dad is talking like this.

Speaker 4 (01:05:50):
I'm lecturing.
One day in class I taught asenior elective on the american
civil war and we were discussingwhatever it was, and I was
talking about the massacre, fortpillow in tennessee, with
nathan bedford and the kids ofthat.
There's someone who took notes.
And what?
What'd you say?
I said, for pillow, how do youspell that?
I thought, what do you mean?

(01:06:12):
And they said spell it, spellit.
And I said well, you know like.
And I saw they went oh, pillow,oh and it's two words fort and
pillow you said you worked as acertain kind of aide in the
legislature.
Oh, I was a page, yeah, when youfirst said that.

Speaker 3 (01:06:26):
I thought you said peach.

Speaker 4 (01:06:29):
Oh, I was a page, which was funny.
I went there and it was in theHouse, not the Senate.
And no, I was a paid, which wasfunny.
I went there and it was in theHouse, not the Senate.
And Tom Murphy both times ofcourse, was the Speaker of the
House and I would they send youat the time cigars or cigarettes
or something.
It's hilarious.
Right Now you hear that andyou'd carry it down onto the
floor and it was just.
I was looking at this chaos,thinking how in the world do

(01:06:51):
they make laws?
And I finally just gave up andwent and sat up in the gallery
and so for the rest of the day Ijust sat up and I was just
mesmerized.
And so Tom Murphy you know, hewas the cigar chewing guy from
Bremen.
And so as I got older and older, I was lucky enough to be a
friend with a gentleman whotaught here in Floyd County,
bruce Wingo.
We wrote A3 Georgia historybooks and it's back in the 80s,

(01:07:12):
I guess it was, and part of thething he wanted.
That Bruce wanted was a chapteron transportation.
And I said he says we need aphoto of Spaghetti, junction 285
and whatnot in Atlanta.
And so that was my job so Iwould help write some things,
but I was mainly that.
So I called the DOT and I saiddo you?
Oh yeah, we have one.

(01:07:34):
And I said you know, here'swhat it's for.
And he says now, is this forprofit?
I said it may be, but it willbe very little.

Speaker 3 (01:07:41):
So he immediately says we can't provide it.

Speaker 4 (01:07:43):
I said what do you mean?
He says, well, if it's forprofit, you got to call this guy
.
So I called this aerialphotographer no drones at the
time, $900.
We had no budget and I thoughtthis is because that was going
to be the lead photo.
So I thought so.
I called the speaker's officeand a gentleman answered and I
said my name is Steve Terry anda friend of mine.

Speaker 3 (01:08:07):
Bruce Wingo.
I got real quiet.
He says WT, bruce and I theycalled him.

Speaker 4 (01:08:09):
B.
He says B Wingo.
And I said yeah, and he saidthey went to school together.
So the good old boy connection.
I said yeah, this is what wewant, but I can't afford that.
And he says let me make somecalls.
20 minutes later the person.
And he said call me back,pietro.
20 minutes later, the sameperson from DOT called me and he

(01:08:35):
said, I've just received a callfrom Speaker.
Murphy's office when do I mailthe photos?
And his last words were wouldyou please call Speaker Murphy's
office back and tell them that?

Speaker 3 (01:08:39):
I did this.

Speaker 4 (01:08:41):
And I went this is how it works.
This is how it works Veryinteresting.