Red Robes and White Smoke: Selecting a New Pope

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What really happens when the world’s most powerful religious leaders lock themselves in a room to choose the next pope? In this episode, we unpack the mystery and meaning of the papal conclave following the death of Pope Francis. With insights from Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant guests, we explore the rituals, the history, and the global significance of this ancient process. Along the way, we reflect on Francis’s legacy, the future of the papacy, and even play a round of Pope or Nope. Whether you're religious or just curious, this is your behind-the-scenes look at one of Christianity’s most sacred and secretive traditions.

The views expressed on Church Potluck are solely those of the participants and do not represent any organization.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
I press record button and I think we are starting.
So where's everybody on theirexam schedule now?

Speaker 2 (00:17):
Just gave my last exam, but still have lots of
grading to do.

Speaker 3 (00:21):
Yeah, I gave my last earlier this morning and still
have a lot of grading to do.
I have one to go on Wednesdayand have a lot of grading to do.
Yeah, I gave my last earlierthis morning and still have a
lot of grading to do.

Speaker 4 (00:26):
I have one to go on Wednesday and have a lot of
grading to do.

Speaker 1 (00:30):
Well, today, I think it's very likely that I took my
last class teaching intro tosociology.
Oh, wow.
Yep, so I'm going to halftimefrom here on out for the next
two years, but I think the waymy department is using me is for
all upper levels.

Speaker 2 (00:44):
So it's possible.
Oh wow, Congratulations.

Speaker 1 (00:47):
Yeah, although I enjoy teaching intro very much,
so it's kind of bittersweet, butthere's a lot of sweet in there
for sure.
Yeah, well, welcome everyone toChurch Potluck, where we are
serving up a smorgasbord ofChristian curiosity.
I'm your host, dale McConkie,sociology professor and United
Methodist pastor.
I might not be able to say thatvery long either, I'm going to

(01:08):
have to say retired UnitedMethodist pastor.
That's coming up as well.
You know, there are two keys toa good church potluck plenty of
variety and engagingconversation.
And this is exactly what we aretrying to do here at Church
Potluck sitting down withfriends and sharing our ideas on
a variety of topics from avariety of academic disciplines
and a variety of Christiantraditions.

(01:29):
All right, well, let us welcomeour guests.
Let's see what order do we wantto do this First?
We'll start with.
We'll just go around the table.
How about that?
So first we have Dr MichaelPapazian, all right, Hi, dr
Papazian, how are you doing?
I've been doing pretty well.
Good, it's been a while, so whydon't you reintroduce yourself
to the audience?

Speaker 3 (01:50):
I'm Professor of Philosophy here at Burry and I
just finished.
I think it's actually the sameyear as Larry's 27th year, yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:58):
All right, that's cool.

Speaker 3 (01:59):
Yeah, it doesn't feel like 27 years.

Speaker 4 (02:01):
Feels like 107.

Speaker 3 (02:04):
Actually to me.
Yeah, it feels like five years.
Oh wow, it went fast.

Speaker 1 (02:08):
So you average out to 27.

Speaker 4 (02:11):
That's correct, that's right.

Speaker 1 (02:12):
Well good, it's good to have you here so much as
always.
I love that you are a regularon the program.
We have another regular with us, Dr Christy Snyder.
Hello, yeah.

Speaker 4 (02:45):
How are you?
Hi, larry, how are you doing?
I'm doing just fine.
I am professor of history atBerry College and I am a
medieval historian, so I knowsome of the early stuff.

Speaker 1 (02:55):
Well, excellent, well .
I'm looking forward to hearingfrom all of you, but, larry, you
are semi-regular.
Michael and Christy come on allthe time, and so they've
already gotten theirs, but youought to be our first person
outside of the inner circle toget a church potluck mug.

Speaker 2 (03:10):
Yeah, yeah, that gets yeah so there you go, thank you
.

Speaker 3 (03:14):
Our listeners can't see it.

Speaker 4 (03:16):
Yeah, no, I mean, they would be amazed.

Speaker 2 (03:17):
They'd be blown away.
Wow, as I am, well, thank youvery much.

Speaker 4 (03:21):
That was very kind.

Speaker 1 (03:22):
See, they can just imagine it the neon lights and
the, the smile on my face.

Speaker 4 (03:28):
That's right.

Speaker 1 (03:29):
But, anyway, we are very grateful that you are here.
So what are we going to betalking about today?
Anybody recognize the music?
I don't think they use itanymore, but this is.
It sounds like graduation,doesn't it?
Yeah, maybe some schools do useit, but this is called the

(03:50):
March Triumphant.
I don't think it's used forpapal ceremonies as much as it
used to, but this is what thiswas, because we are going to
talk about the Pope.
Actually, here's the intro.
I put my intro in the chat GPTand said can you clean this up?
And I gave her permission.
I said you just keep my voice,but you can add something if you
want.
And here's what it said.

(04:11):
It said here's a cleaned upversion of your intro, improving
the rhythm, the clarity andpunch.
And then it says, and with atouch of added weight and drama,
oh wow.
So here's what chat GPT hassaid weight and drama, oh wow.
So here's what Chad GPT hassaid Pope Francis, head of the

(04:32):
Catholic Church for 12 years,dead, a global spiritual leader,
a Jesuit, a reformer, a symbolof change.
Now a vacancy, now a choice.
The time has come to.
Now a vacancy, now a choice.
The time has come to select anew pope?
A conclave, a secret gatheringof cardinals Locked inside, no

(04:55):
phones, no cameras, just prayerballots and holy smoke.
But how does it work?
How is a pope chosen?
What happens behind the Vaticanwalls and why should any of us
care?
What does this mean forChristendom, for the world, even
for those of us who aren'tCatholic?
Let's find out from ouresteemed guests.

(05:15):
So what would you give ChatGPTon that?
A little too dramatic.

Speaker 2 (05:20):
A little too much, a little over the top, I agree,
all right, I too much, a littleover the top.

Speaker 1 (05:22):
I agree.
All right, I agree, but I got achuckle out of it, so I thought
maybe our audience would aswell.
Well, this is kind of funny forus to be talking about the
selection of a new pope whenthree quarters of us aren't
Catholic.
And Christy, you are our tokenresident Catholic, as you've
already mentioned, so I wouldlike you to now speak on behalf
of the 1.4 billion Catholicsacross the country.

(05:44):
What are Catholics thinkingright now?
What's going on through theirmind?

Speaker 2 (05:51):
Well, I think most of us are just kind of in waiting.
I don't feel like there's a lotof—I think most Catholics will
be very accepting of whateverhappens.
Accepting of whatever happens,Most people aren't going to be
like oh well, now I'm out of thechurch because I don't like the
direction that the cardinalshave gone, and so there's always

(06:12):
a little bit of excitement,though Maybe some people fear,
but as far as I could tell, mostare not.

Speaker 1 (06:19):
Is there an odd transition of both the mourning
of a Pope and then, but also theimmediately, the anticipation
and the excitement of newness aswell, or yeah, I think so.

Speaker 2 (06:29):
I mean you know, although the morning I think you
know kind of last, maybe a week, yeah, just because you don't
have that kind of closerelationship as much as you, you
know might read things or youknow, or know about what they're
doing and especially when thePope has lived a good long life.

Speaker 1 (06:48):
Yes, yeah, yeah, absolutely, and this is a fairly
rare event.
I think there have been fivepopes in my lifetime, and one of
them was a pope for 33 days,and so really just four popes in
my lifetime.
I don't know if this is aninteresting story to anybody but
me, but I actually have a veryvivid memory of when Pope John

(07:08):
Paul I died the one who onlyserved for 33 days because I was
a newspaper delivery boy and Iwas folding the newspapers in
the morning and I don't rememberwhat the headline was, but I
got about halfway through mybundle of papers and the papers
changed.
There was a new headline and itwas that the Pope had died.

Speaker 2 (07:26):
Oh, wow.

Speaker 1 (07:27):
And so they had stopped the presses and then
they had started it back up withthe different headlines.
When was that?
I forgot 1978.
Okay, I was about 13 years old,right, yeah?

Speaker 3 (07:37):
I remember the announcement of his death and I
thought it was like a repeatnews show, because it was Paul
VI who had just passed away amonth before.
Yeah, oh, we're doing thisagain.

Speaker 4 (07:49):
Yeah, yeah, that's probably what they were saying
too.

Speaker 1 (07:51):
We got to do this again, yeah probably, they
probably just gone back andsettled back down in their
routine and let's do it all overagain.
Well, let's just do a veryquick reflection on Pope Francis
.
And again, very few of us areCatholic.
But, christy, you might want toget us started, or anybody else
.
What is your sense of who PopeFrancis was to the Catholic
Church and to the world at large?

Speaker 2 (08:13):
Well, I do think that you know Pope Francis spoke to
many Catholics in his kind ofdesire to serve the less
fortunate and the poor, his kindof eschewing a lot of the pomp
maybe.

Speaker 1 (08:30):
Yes, especially early on, the press, I know, made a
big deal out of how he wascarrying his own luggage and
doing very many symbolicinteractions like that.

Speaker 2 (08:39):
Yeah, not living, I think, in the formal kind of
quarters of the Vatican thatpopes normally inhabit.
And I mean, I think for a lotof people that was, yes,
symbolic, but also really saidsomething about what he valued
and what he believed in.
I think he was also still verykind of pastoral as far as like

(09:00):
kind of wanting to reach out toa wide variety of people and
serve.
Just the fact, like you know,when he would, during Lenten
periods, wash the feet of peoplewho were imprisoned and things
like that, it's just I reallythink that a lot of people saw
that as maybe a direction theyhadn't seen the church going in
a long time.

Speaker 1 (09:22):
And a few people were a little concerned about that,
maybe more than a few peoplethat there was a traditionalist
conservative wing that thought,maybe that even though I don't
think Francis was known as awild reformer but there was
still a tone there that was moreliberal, more progressive than
some Catholics would want.

Speaker 2 (09:38):
Yeah, that's true.
Although he didn't reallychange doctrine, he talked
differently about things.
That's a good way of putting it, I think yeah.

Speaker 1 (09:46):
Excellent, excellent.
So, michael, you are from theOrthodox tradition, so you are
Catholic-adjacent.
As far as we Protestants areconcerned, that is correct.

Speaker 3 (09:54):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (09:55):
So any impressions from that point of view?

Speaker 3 (09:58):
Well, I've got both.
I guess I can speak morebroadly from the perspective of
Eastern Christianity.
Pope Francis has had very closerelations with the Orthodox,
especially with the ecumenicalpatriarch Bartholomew I, who is
kind of like considered thefirst among equals of the
Eastern Orthodox patriarchs, butalso- which would be in the

(10:20):
same line as cardinals, right,yeah.
So he's the patriarch ofConstantinople and so that also
was an apostolic see founded bySt Andrew, just as Rome was for
the first see of Peter, andthere's been always a very warm

(10:41):
relations between the Orthodoxand the Catholics, and Francis
in general, I think, has beenvery open to engagement with the
Orthodox.

Speaker 1 (10:51):
Christians, and that's something that's
relatively new, if I'm right,and that's something that
actually you've been quiteinvolved with.

Speaker 3 (10:56):
Yes, yeah, I mean it's not that new, it's gone
back.
I mean I think we can trace iteven earlier.
But I mean, john Paul II wasvery close to the Orthodox as
well, himself being an EasternEuropean from Poland.
Of course had connections withthe Slavic world as well, and
that's like 1960s, right PopeJohn Paul II would have been.
He passed away in, I believe,in 2004.

(11:18):
So if we go even earlier, johnXXIII.

Speaker 1 (11:21):
So, larry, that's recent history, right?
Yeah, that's very recent,that's yesterday.
That's yesterday for thehistorian Current events, that's
right.

Speaker 3 (11:27):
Yeah, so I think Francis was not an innovator in
terms of his relations with theEast, but he definitely made it
an important part of his papacy.
For me personally, my mostrecent book would not have been
written without Pope.

Speaker 1 (11:43):
Francis, okay, not to do that.
Go ahead and plug your book.

Speaker 3 (11:47):
Well, that's good, because I need more sales.
In 2019,.
I published a book called theDoctor of Mercy.
It was published by LiturgicalPress, which is a Catholic press
at St John's University inAbbey in Minnesota, and the book
is about an Armenian saint, apoet primarily, and a theologian

(12:08):
, who lived in the 10th century,his name is-, but when you say
Armenian Orthodox, right,armenian Orthodox, well there's-
.

Speaker 1 (12:14):
Okay.

Speaker 4 (12:15):
Interesting yes.

Speaker 3 (12:16):
I mean, what does that even mean?
It was after the schism.
He lived after it.
Well, it's complicated, becausethe Armenian church broke off,
or least other.
I mean, it depends on yourperspective who broke off, but
the idea is that that was a muchearlier schism that occurred in
the aftermath of the Council ofChalcedon in 451.

Speaker 1 (12:38):
AD, this is my own fault for asking Too much, too
many details.
I mean, read my book, really,if you want to know all about it
.

Speaker 3 (12:44):
If you're really interested, just buy it.
It's on Amazon, it's everywhereAnyway.

Speaker 1 (12:49):
And if you don't want to buy it, just go ahead and
Venmo.
Michael Papazian.
And it was in 2015 that PopeFrancis declared St Gregory a
doctor of the church.

Speaker 3 (13:07):
So this is a title within the Catholic Church.
Doctor of course means teacher.
I mean we are all doctors,that's right, we're teachers.

Speaker 1 (13:14):
Doctors don't think so.

Speaker 2 (13:15):
Well you know I mean it was our title first.
Why don't they come up withtheir?
Own title if they're so smart.

Speaker 3 (13:23):
Anyway.
So currently there are 37people not all men.
There are several women, toowho are considered doctors of
the church have been recognizedas such by the Catholic Church
the big names like Augustine andAquinas.
They're doctors.
More recently, catherine ofSiena, hildegard of Bingen.

(13:46):
So several women have beennamed doctors of the church.
But in 2015, pope Francis didsomething really, from my
perspective, extraordinary.

Speaker 1 (13:53):
He named a non-Catholic a doctor of the
church.

Speaker 3 (13:57):
St Gregory, who lived after the schism occurred, and
so I said, okay, this is mychance.
I have to write a book about it, because this is my area of
expertise.
I do work in medieval Armeniantheology.
So I said, okay, the Popehanded me a gift, I'll write
this book, and it got publishedby a Catholic press.
It got some good reviews andall.

(14:18):
I was very pleased.
So now I'm working on anotherbook about the same.

Speaker 4 (14:22):
The sequel.
The sequel, that's right, I'mworking on another book about
the same, the sequel, the sequel.

Speaker 3 (14:26):
That's right, I'm on sabbatical in the fall and this
is my plan, but anyway.
So for me, I'm really and I didpost on Facebook and social
media after I heard about thepassing of the Pope how not only
what that meant for the churchin general, but also personally
too that my own work was sort ofwrapped up in something that he
was bold enough to do to makethis move, and that was, I think

(14:48):
, a really—it's not one of thebetter-known aspects of Francis'
papacy, but I think it isreally monumental and may have
lasting effects in therelationship between the divided
churches.

Speaker 1 (15:03):
Very nice.
Thank you Well, larry, that gotus a little—our toe wet in the
relationship between the dividedchurches.
Very nice, thank you Well,larry, that got us a little our
toe wet in the history.
Take us through.
What do we need to know about?

Speaker 4 (15:09):
just the history of the papacy and all the popes
that have gone before, wellthere's been a lot of them and
since we're, you know, going totalk about the conclave and
they're going to pick a new popeI mean, that isn't age old I

(15:30):
think it's interesting that weget this impression that these
institutions are well, they arekind of hidebound, but that
they've been around forever.
And in fact you can see, I wasjust looking through my Liber
Pontificalis this morning on theBook of Popes and you know,
when, I looked at Peter again,even in that they don't call him
Pope, right, he's the Bishop ofRome, but he's not Pope.
So it took a long time even forthat idea to catch on.

(15:52):
So I find it interesting withwhat's going on now, I mean how
there seems like it's age-oldtradition, but in fact these are
things that just have accretedover the past couple of
centuries.
I guess I would say maybe goingback to the earlier question
too, is that I was pleased whenFrancis became pope because, as
I told you before we started,even though I'm not a Catholic,

(16:14):
I taught at a Jesuit university,actually for two years, and
Francis very much seemed toreflect the kind of people I
worked with when I was there fortwo years.

Speaker 1 (16:23):
And Francis was a Jesuit.
He was a Jesuit.
Yeah, which was unusual for apope to be a Jesuit.
He's the only one.
Yeah, oh, so I was right.
They're not supposed to bepopes.

Speaker 3 (16:32):
Yeah, being a Jesuit is not really even supposed to
go up in the hierarchy.
I think that's part of it.
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (16:38):
Yeah, they got their own, but they still are sort of
considered the liberal wing ofCatholicism and I think Francis
very much represented that and,as I say, it kind of reminds me
of that experience I had as anoutsider at a Jesuit university,
very nice.

Speaker 1 (16:53):
Very nice.
I don't know if you got all thesalacious stories, but I just
remember the little bit ofknowledge I have about the whole
reason behind the papacytracing it back to Peter, the
whole reason behind the papacytracing it back to Peter.
Does anybody want to pick thatup in scripture?
The Catholic mindset in termsof why there's even a pope?
Pope is just a term for likefather right, father right, and

(17:13):
it's not exclusively Catholic.

Speaker 3 (17:15):
The head of the Coptic church in Egypt is also
called the Pope of Alexandria,so it's used in other churches
as well.

Speaker 4 (17:23):
I mean, and even now the pope is still the Bishop of
Rome.
I mean he's literally a localofficial, as well as this
international figure.

Speaker 1 (17:32):
We had a local Lutheran pastor refer to himself
as the Bishop of Rome, since weare in the same couple, yeah,
so there could be more than oneof them.

Speaker 4 (17:40):
I mean, in my own classes I really say that the
pope that we sort of, or thefigure we see as pope, really
didn't emerge until Gregory,really until the early 7th
century.
Even though you have bishops ofRome going back to Peter,
gregory was the first monk whobecame bishop of Rome and he
sort of brought some of thosequalities into the papacy with

(18:03):
him and I think that some of thethings he tried to do, you can
kind of see the figure, thiskind of ecumenical figure that
you didn't really see before.
But I think that a lot of peopleforget that this guy still is a
local as well as aninternational figure and I think
that very fact really, you know, brought about the College of
Cardinals and the conclave inthe first place is.
You know it brought about theCollege of Cardinals and the

(18:25):
conclave in the first place isyou know, how do you pick this
guy, and it wasn't clear for along time how you could pick the
pope.
So it took a long time, athousand years of bishops of
Rome, before they sort of cameup with a formula to how to do
it.

Speaker 1 (18:40):
And I think many of us who are Protestant would just
be very confused by this wholeprocess, because when we think
about leadership and thesuccession of leadership, it
basically is well, who isfaithful to the message, who is
faithful to the scripture, andso it's kind of ideological,
whereas and it's not that it'snot ideological when it comes to
the selection of a pope, butthere is seen as this continuity

(19:03):
which you said doesn't reallystart until the 7th century, but
in the mind of Catholicism itreally starts with Peter, where
Jesus says upon this rock I'mgoing to build my church, and so
he's seen as the first pope andthat the understanding is that
there has been someone who hassucceeded Peter in that position
and that there's been thisunbroken string.
And obviously, obviously, as ahistorian, that's more

(19:24):
conceptual than reality, butthis idea of an unbroken string
of people assuming that position, that you can trace this all
the way back to Peter, so thatthere's this kind of continuity
that you don't see in Protestantchurches.

Speaker 4 (19:39):
Yeah, well, and as Mike knows too, I mean Peter
means rock in Greek so it's.
You know Peter is literally.
You know you are the rock, andupon the rock I'll build my
church.
That little bit of scripturethere is pretty compelling.

Speaker 2 (19:51):
Yeah, but yeah it's.

Speaker 4 (19:53):
I hate to say it and I don't mean to sound irreverent
, but it's kind of a myth, likeSanta Claus, right, it's a nice
myth, but that's really in theend what it is.
I mean, if you look at it sortof historically and the role of
the bishop of Rome.

Speaker 1 (20:06):
And at one point there were like four folks
claiming to be the pope?
Yes, oh yeah.
That happened many differenttimes over the centuries, so is
this like an open secret amongCatholics, christy, or are there
some that would say that asacademics we're overcomplicating
things?
And there really has been thishistorical tracing things and
there really has been thishistorical tracing.

Speaker 2 (20:26):
I would say most Catholics don't think more about
the current Pope and maybe thecouple who came before him.
We're just not.
Yeah, I mean, I do thinkthere's this idea that, yeah,
there's been this long stringsince Peter and you know that
following that tradition isimportant and having somebody
who is a leader and does havethat ability to you know kind of
set church doctrine andprecedent.

(20:47):
But yeah, digging into thehistory, I've never done it,
yeah.

Speaker 3 (20:55):
Well, even from the Eastern perspective, we
recognize I'm sorry Michael'sdug into it.

Speaker 1 (21:01):
He's shooting to become a doctor of the church.

Speaker 4 (21:03):
Exactly One of these days I'll have to be dead first.
Maybe they'll make an exception.
Yeah, right.

Speaker 3 (21:10):
But from the perspective of the Orthodox, we
recognize the Sea of Rome ashaving a preeminence.
It's not always connected withthe fact that it's the Sea of
Peter, but there is this ideagoing back in the ancient church
, that of all the ancientapostolic sees, those cities
that had bishops that couldtrace somehow, historically or
otherwise, back to the apostles,that there was a preeminence to

(21:34):
the Sea of Rome and thatwhenever there was a dispute
among the churches or a councilthat the pope would preside.
We have a differentunderstanding of governance,
church governance than theCatholics do, and that's been a
point of division, but there isstill that recognition that
there's a certain prestige thatattaches to Rome.

Speaker 1 (21:53):
So there's at least that, and you've used the term
see frequently and I don't knowwhat that is, so go ahead and
see.

Speaker 3 (22:18):
Okay, it's not S-E-A but S-E-E, so it's the seat of
the bishop.
So every bishop has literally aseat right're recognized.
Not only the Sea of Rome.
I mentioned the Sea ofConstantinople too, which has
the Patriarch of Constantinople,Bartholomew, right now.
The Sea of Alexandria in Egypt,Antioch in Syria and then
finally, Jerusalem.

Speaker 1 (22:36):
So they're usually regionally based.

Speaker 3 (22:39):
They're regionally based, but all of them have some
connection to one of Christ'sapostles.

Speaker 4 (22:43):
Okay, Very cool, although Constantinople is a
tricky one.

Speaker 1 (22:47):
Yes.

Speaker 4 (22:47):
I mean, how does that work?
Because it wasn'tConstantinople until Constantine
, that's right, I'm genuinelycurious, because I know that
it's considered one of the bigones, but how do they kind of
shoehorn that?

Speaker 3 (23:00):
They claim it, I think historically, I think is
probably not backed up by much,but that there is some
connection with Andrew, who isthe brother of Peter, and so
it's considered the Sea of StAndrew, but I think a lot of
people nowadays recognize thatit was just because it was an
important city.
Constantinople was the capitalof the Eastern Roman Empire and

(23:22):
so therefore, because of thatimportance, that's the reason
why it became an apostolic seat.
Okay, very cool.

Speaker 1 (23:29):
Let's do a game show.
All right, you ready?
Yes, sure, we are going to playPope or Nope.

Speaker 3 (23:43):
Okay, how does this work?

Speaker 1 (23:45):
Pope or nope.
So I'm going to give you a factabout the Pope or the Vatican
and you are going to tell mewhether it's true Pope or
whether it's not nope.

Speaker 4 (23:55):
Nope, all right, all right.

Speaker 1 (23:57):
You got it All right, pope or nope?
The white smoke signifying theselection of a new pope used to
be red Nope.

Speaker 4 (24:05):
Which means it's probably pope.

Speaker 2 (24:07):
I'm going to go with pope because I know it used to
be a different color, but Idon't know what color it was.

Speaker 1 (24:12):
I'm going to go with nope.
It is nope.

Speaker 2 (24:19):
So our token Catholic was the one who got it wrong, I
think we're just going to stopthere.

Speaker 3 (24:25):
This just means you know your next confession is
going to conclude this.

Speaker 1 (24:29):
All right, here we go .
All cardinals must fast 48hours before entering the
conclave.
Pope or nope?
I'm going to say nope.

Speaker 2 (24:38):
I'm going to go with nope.

Speaker 3 (24:39):
You know, I'm just going to go out there with Pope.

Speaker 1 (24:41):
Ah, so Christy's now tied with you, so Larry's up in
front 2-0.
So here we go.
Next question the Pope has hisown official astronomer.

Speaker 2 (24:53):
I'm going to say Pope , but I don't know.

Speaker 4 (24:55):
I'll say nope, I'll say Pope.

Speaker 1 (24:57):
And now it's all tied up everybody, so at least the
majority is getting it righteach time.
So I found this fascinating.
The Pope has his own officialastronomer, there's an
observatory, and it's just soironic that there has been
astronomical viewing andevidence even before Galileo.

(25:18):
It appears I might have thatpart wrong, but that for the
church being so renowned for ina bad way, for how Galileo was
treated, for them to have theirown official observatory now.

Speaker 3 (25:32):
And there's a real strong— yeah, they're really
good in astronomy.
I think the astronomer—is theastronomer, a Jesuit, currently
the official, I don't Okay.

Speaker 1 (25:41):
Let's just say nope.

Speaker 4 (25:41):
They should be.

Speaker 3 (25:43):
You would expect that yeah.

Speaker 1 (25:44):
Yeah, very good, all right, so here we go.
Next question Pope Francisstudied chemistry and worked in
a chemical lab.
Pope or nope Pope?

Speaker 2 (25:56):
Okay, I'm going to go say Pope too then.

Speaker 1 (26:00):
That head shaking early on.
That actually is Pope, allright.

Speaker 3 (26:05):
I had read he had a master's degree and that part is
not quite true.
Not quite true, okay.

Speaker 1 (26:10):
It's more.
I don't know if it was like a.
It wasn't an actual universitydegree, but it was maybe a
two-year associate's type ofdegree.
So he was a chemistrytechnician and then he worked
for a chemical company for awhile before he entered seminary
.
That's really cool.
So he has a science.
So that was Pope, pope or nope.
The Pope is required to changehis name when elected.

(26:33):
I'll say nope.
Science is a good part of thepodcast.
I know that they are given theoption to change their name.

Speaker 2 (26:36):
I'll say nope.
Silence is a good part of thepodcast I listen.
I'm sorry.
Yeah, so I know that they aregiven the option to change their
name, but I don't know.
If it's a requirement, I'mgoing to say nope as well.

Speaker 3 (26:46):
Yeah, I'll say nope too, the answer.

Speaker 1 (26:48):
So all of you ended up saying nope, and so all of
you were correct.

Speaker 3 (26:52):
I just figured.
If you like your name, why notkeep it?
That's right.

Speaker 1 (26:54):
Well.

Speaker 3 (26:55):
I guess the tradition .

Speaker 1 (26:57):
And I forgot to write his name down.
But I want to say it was aroundthe 6th century is when this
tradition started, and it wasbecause the person elected pope
had a pagan name, yeah.
And so I thought that yeah, see, in that case you have to
change.
And so that became thetradition, and so then you go.
All right, last one.
We'll go ahead and make thislast one.

(27:23):
Y'all have come through stronghere at the end.
The Pope must speak fluent Latinin order to be eligible to
serve as the Pope.
Nope, nope, oh, coming up.
We're not even going to giveyou all a chance to answer.

Speaker 3 (27:29):
I mean who speaks fluent.

Speaker 1 (27:30):
Latin.
All right, y'all came on strongand did a good job.
So thank you for playing Hopeor Nope, all right.
So the conclave I rememberbeing fascinated and I think I
will be fascinated.
This is the conclave issupposed to start on Wednesday,

(27:52):
so hopefully this will come outtomorrow, which will be Tuesday.
Get this just a little bit andalso I have done something bad
that's going to maybe turn outgood.
We did this very nice Conclaveepisode.
Do you all remember Christine?

Speaker 3 (28:04):
and Michael doing that.
I remember going and seeing themovie together.

Speaker 1 (28:08):
Yes, and then I never published the episode.
Well, you're waiting for thismoment?
Well then I didn't publish it.
When the movie came out, andthen it got nominated for an
Academy Award, I said, oh, thisis the perfect time to do it.
And I didn't get it out.
And so I've got this one lastchance, this one last chance to
put it out when it would beappropriate.
And this is going to be a dualweek where we'll put out both of

(28:29):
these episodes.
And I think that, larry, didyou watch Conclave?

Speaker 4 (28:35):
I did.
Yeah, I thought it was reallygood and this was before Francis
died.
I thought I was really quiteimpressed with it, yeah.

Speaker 1 (28:41):
And in all seriousness to our audience,
very much recommend you watchingbecause you do get a sense of
the pomp and the circumstanceand the richness and the
tradition and you know there's anice little mystery in there as
well.
But you do get a sense of whatthe Conclave is like and you
know there's a nice littlemystery in there as well.
But you do get a sense of whatthe conclave is like.
And one of the ways I'vedescribed the movie is it is the
best slow movie you'll everwatch it.

(29:03):
Just it was kind ofintentionally slow in some ways
but in a very way that kept meattentive the entire movie for
sure.

Speaker 4 (29:10):
Yeah, I thought they really had to act.
Yeah, I mean there wasn't anyaction per se?
Yes, but I thought that theydid a really great job of sort
of being actors.

Speaker 2 (29:21):
Yeah, I agree, I did read somewhere that over the
last week, yeah, the streamingof that movie has really
increased.

Speaker 1 (29:28):
It has gone to the very front of my little
streaming recommendations.
There's no doubt about that.
And while I'm thinking of it,another recommendation and I'm
pretty sure this is also onNetflix is called the Two Popes,
and that is a documentary from2019.
And we don't have time to gointo this in detail, but if any
of you wanted to speak to this,the pope prior to Francis

(29:50):
Benedict and was it Benedictwith a number, 16th?
Yeah, I guess that's a number,a big number.
Benedict XVI did something thatI don't think had been done in
like 700 years, and that's thathe retired.
He resigned the papacy ratherthan serving until his death,
and so for a while somethingvery unusual two popes.
Maybe Larry's going to poo thatand say, no, there's always two

(30:12):
popes around.

Speaker 4 (30:12):
I thought it was weird.

Speaker 1 (30:14):
Yeah, and this is a documentary talking about both
of them together.
I haven't watched it recently,but when I did watch it, I liked
it very much, and so Iencourage you to watch that.
So, either based on the movieor just what you know of
conclaves, what are you lookingforward to?
What do you think that ouraudience should be aware of?
Most of us know about the whitesmoke, right?
Yeah, I've been enjoying thewhite smoke memes that are

(30:37):
coming out.
I posted one on Facebook aboutthe smoke.
You see when a pope is selectedand then underneath it there's
a little barbecue going on.
The pope.
You see when our pastor isselected.

Speaker 2 (30:49):
I thought that was clever For a Baptist too.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (30:53):
And then, yeah, it was a Baptist meme.
And then, yeah, it was aBaptist meme.
And then one I saw this morningwas a little news item saying
two teens vaping outside the.
Vatican select the new popeaccidentally, and I thought that
was clever.
So the white smoke, I thinkthat's a cool tradition, but
what else?
Anything else about that actualconclave?

Speaker 4 (31:13):
It'll be hard to know because it's secret.
Yeah, I mean, I hope it doesn'ttake long.
I think the longer it takesthen the more uncertain it
becomes.

Speaker 1 (31:22):
And it's my understanding that the recent
conclaves have usually takenjust two or three days.
Yeah, In recent history, likegoing all the way back to the
1900s usually just a couple ofdays, but supposedly maybe
you've got some insight on this,that there have been conclaves
that have lasted years.

Speaker 3 (31:39):
Yeah, you don't want that.

Speaker 4 (31:40):
You want it to be short, and sweet, and as
unanimous as possible.

Speaker 2 (31:45):
So when I was preparing for this today, I was
looking at how many times a daythey vote, and so first day is
kind of shorter than normal days, because I guess they do a mass
first before they go in andstart.
So sometimes they'll only doone vote the first day, maybe
more, but usually it's fourvotes a day, two in the morning,

(32:06):
two at night, and both Francisand Benedict.
I think they had it done in twodays.
So it'll be interesting to seeif this goes longer or not.

Speaker 1 (32:15):
So are y'all looking at that?
I actually looked up Popeelection odds.
People are betting on it, yeah,yeah, so are y'all looking at
that?

Speaker 3 (32:19):
I actually looked up Pope election odds.

Speaker 1 (32:20):
People are betting on it, yeah yeah, there are
different places that you canplace wages.
I knew the next Pope is goingto be.
I wonder if that's a sin.

Speaker 3 (32:28):
Not if you're not Catholic.

Speaker 2 (32:32):
I mean, I do think there's some thoughts that,
because so many of the electorswere currently appointed by
Francis, that there's a goodchance you end up with somebody
maybe similar to him.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (32:48):
I mean one reason why I think there's good reason to
think that will happen.
But on the other hand, franciskind of came out of nowhere
because the two previous popeswho would appoint so, john Paul
II and Benedict, were pretty onthe conservative side.
And yet we got Francis, who wasa little bit more or less
conservative, and so you neverknow.

(33:09):
I think.

Speaker 1 (33:10):
I mean I was wondering if there would be
maybe not a conservativebacklash, but we need to step
back a bit and maybe have it.
But as far as I know anddefinitely don't take my word
for any of this but the threepeople who are often mentioned
as frontrunners don't reallyhave that real strong
conservative basis to it.
One seems to be a Vaticandiplomat that was very

(33:33):
instrumental for Pope Francisand so he would be seen as a
very much a sign of continuitywith Francis.
One, the bishop from Africa, isseen as there's plenty of
bishops in Africa, but the onethat's seen as a front runner
for the papacy is very muchsocial justice and seen as a
very progressive figure.
And the other person whose nameis mentioned often is from the

(33:53):
Philippines and very pastoral,but also seen as a reformer.
So I was kind of surprised thatthere are some conservative
names out there but they aren'tbeing mentioned prominent.
But that could just be themedia bias out there too, right,
yeah.

Speaker 2 (34:06):
I was going to say so I did hear of an African bishop
who, or a cardinal who, is moreconservative and has spoken out
against, or at least the clipthat I listened to was him
talking about how people bornmale should use male bathrooms
and that shouldn't becontroversial and things like
this.
So I do think there's, you know, definitely especially many of

(34:30):
the churches in Africa, catholicchurches in Africa and Asia
have a more conservative bent.
So if you chose somebody fromone of those areas, it could be
very likely that you get a muchmore conservative viewpoint.

Speaker 1 (34:44):
That would make sense .
Do you think this makes anydifference for the world at
large?
I mean, especially in this dayand age when we are increasingly
more secular?
Are people even aware?
I think that the people outsidethe Catholic Church really did.
They were aware of Pope Francis, especially in the early years
of his papacy, and I think thatthere for many people appreciate

(35:09):
that breath of fresh air thatyou were talking about, christy.

Speaker 2 (35:11):
Yeah, I would say it was a mixed bag, so some people
were appreciative of it, it andsome people really were not
appreciative of it.
And you hear that from you know, even our own Congresswoman has
said some negative things aboutPope Francis and kind of his
more liberal or progressive bent, I think socially.

(35:32):
And yeah, it's hard to know howit'll be accepted.

Speaker 1 (35:34):
So did you care one way or another, or did your
fellow Catholics care one way oranother, that President Trump
posted a picture of himself inthe papal regalia?

Speaker 2 (35:45):
So I did hear some Catholics complain, but I also
heard lots of other peoplecomplain.
It is kind of bad taste, Ithink.

Speaker 3 (35:52):
I mean, the first thing I thought was what is he
going to do with Melania?

Speaker 4 (35:58):
She'd probably want to wear a hat like that too.

Speaker 3 (36:00):
I mean, in the eyes of the church he probably still
has two wives right, because heprobably didn't have his second
marriage annulled.
So they're all I mean.
But that's the way I think,yeah.

Speaker 2 (36:11):
Yeah, and I mean you didn't go for the optics at all,
just the procedural.

Speaker 3 (36:17):
I mean, it's easy to become a Catholic, but what do
you do with your spouses?

Speaker 2 (36:22):
So I don't think there's a rule that you have to
be unmarried to be Pope.

Speaker 3 (36:29):
Well, he's a bishop, though, and the Bishop of Rome
and the Catholic and theOrthodox churches.
Bishops since I don't know when, 8th century, maybe even
earlier have to be celibate men.

Speaker 1 (36:38):
Is that true?

Speaker 3 (36:41):
So even if, they were married before they became.
Well, if their wife dies, yes,they can become a celibate
priest, but you know if you'vegot if and I know historically
in the early church married mendid I mean Peter was married but
then the tradition developedthat if you're a married bishop
your wife has to enter a, becomea nun, enter a convent, and If
you're a married bishop yourwife has to become a nun, enter
a convent, and then celibacy hasbeen mandatory for bishops

(37:02):
since, and the Eastern Churchrecognizes that discipline too,
but I think that there are some,or there were some, catholic
priests who had beenEpiscopalian ministers married.

Speaker 4 (37:12):
Yeah, I think it's probably not a safe bet that a
guy who's married is going toget elected pope.

Speaker 1 (37:16):
Yes, it's probably not a safe bet that a guy who's
married is going to get electedpope.

Speaker 3 (37:20):
Yes, were you trying to say that, michael, that
there's only a certain levelthat you can get to at being a
priest, a married priest.
So in the Eastern Church wehave married priests, but they
can't become bishops.

Speaker 4 (37:28):
Okay, right.

Speaker 3 (37:28):
Bishops are always required to be celibate, to take
a vow of celibacy.
Yeah, I mean, I know, in theAnglican Episcopalian tradition
of course Lutherans have bishopswho are married.
But among Catholics andOrthodox I mean Catholic in
Latin right of the CatholicChurch, you know all priests all
have to be celibate, with theexception of those who come over

(37:50):
from the Anglicans or whatever.
And in the Eastern Catholicchurches also there are married
priests but they cannot becomebishops.

Speaker 2 (37:59):
And I have never.
Even though I know that marriedAnglicans who become priests
can don't have to like getdivorced or anything, I've never
met a married priest in my life.

Speaker 4 (38:09):
Yeah, I think it's pretty rare.
It's very rare Like a unicorn.

Speaker 2 (38:18):
Not quite, but close, yeah, they exist, I've just
never seen one.

Speaker 1 (38:21):
That's right.
That's right.
Okay, it's like a giant squid.
Yeah, that's better.
What else?
What else do we need to know?
Anything else?

Speaker 2 (38:31):
Oh, I was just going to say I do think I mean it's
really interesting how I thinkthe tone of the church can
change, given who is the priest.
I remember, you know, pope JohnPaul II was very beloved right.
He was the pope when I wasgrowing up and you know very
much kind of against communismand the belief that you know you

(38:52):
have to allow people to be freeto worship and things like this
, and it really does kind of seta tone for more than just, I
think, catholics.
I think Francis did the same inmany ways.
So I will be interested to seekind of how it plays out.

Speaker 4 (39:06):
I mean, no matter who becomes Pope, they'll set a
tone.
They sort of are the I don'tknow, you know the thermometer
of Christianity, whether we likeit or not, and so I'm hopeful
that they will pick someone whoalso is a little more
progressive.
I would hate to see thingsslide back, I mean, with Francis
.
It's funny sometimes he wascriticized because he didn't go

(39:27):
far enough, but I thought thathe did strike the right tone.
I always thought John Paul II Imean, he's definitely a great
guy, but he was prettyconservative in the end and I'm
not sure that really is going tohelp the cause of Catholicism
or Christianity in general.

Speaker 1 (39:43):
I mean, that's my own personal opinion.
I'd say my most progressiveFacebook friends who took the
time to comment very often saidsomething along those lines.
He didn't go as far as I want.
I'm sure we definitely disagreeon some things, but and then
there was an acknowledgement ofthe very gracious approach that
he had.

Speaker 4 (40:02):
I think that he went just far enough.
I mean I actually really likedhim, because you can't expect
somebody to scrap everything.
I mean that just causes as manyproblems as it solves.
It maybe doesn't solve any andit just creates more.
So I liked Francis because hedidn't go too far.

Speaker 3 (40:20):
Yeah, and I mean I would hate being Pope because
you were saying what 1.4 billionCatholics all over the world,
in hundreds of thousands ofdifferent cultures, keeping that
together must be a really Imean stressful, difficult thing.
And so you make one majorchange, or even a relatively

(40:40):
minor one, and you're going tolose people.
I mean they lost people withthe Latin moving from the Latin
to the vernacular, you know, andthat continues to be an issue.
And that continues to be anissue.
So if you have a pope who'smaking all sorts of really
radical moves, that's going todestroy the unity of the church.
So that always has to be on themind of the person who's pope.

Speaker 2 (41:12):
Especially given that the places where Catholicism is
expanding the most are in thoseareas that are more
conservative socially, likeAfrica and Asia, and yeah,
whereas the places that arelosing Catholics are in, like
Europe and North America.

Speaker 1 (41:18):
You've given me such a good window to make this about
Methodism for a second.
I was going to say it's likeyou know.

Speaker 2 (41:24):
With Methodism growing in Africa.

Speaker 1 (41:25):
That's just exactly, and we haven't stayed together.
Our unity has been lost becauseof this absolutely.

Speaker 4 (41:36):
But that's why I mean , as Mike was saying, they need
a Pope who's not going to makeradical moves one way or the
other in order to hold ittogether.
So yeah, Very good.

Speaker 1 (41:42):
Well, thank you all very much, christy, we should
give you the last word.

Speaker 2 (41:47):
Oh darn.
I mean, I'm just anxious to seewhat happens.

Speaker 1 (41:50):
Anxious in a good way , In a good way right.

Speaker 2 (41:52):
So, yeah, I will be Catholic.
No matter who they choose, Iwill stay Catholic no matter who
they choose as Pope Other thanTrump.

Speaker 3 (41:59):
I was kidding.
You drew the line there.

Speaker 4 (42:02):
Okay, I guess that might be a little difficult.
Yeah, Will Mel Gibson, though.

Speaker 2 (42:08):
Yeah, but yeah, I think it will be.
I think it hopefully bodes wellfor the church if they are able
to choose someone fairlyquickly and someone that I think
that one of the things thatfascinates me about the conclave
is that in my intro classes Italk about Max Weber, ooh.

Speaker 3 (42:39):
Citation I get what's said Max.

Speaker 1 (42:40):
Weber.
Just how do we bestow authorityon people, right?
How do we give people power?
And the papacy is such aninteresting combination of all
three of his types of authorityright that there's definitely
tradition built into it, butthere's also an election and
then the guidance of the HolySpirit and clearly some level of
charisma of the candidates thatall three of those types of

(43:04):
ways of legitimizing somebody'spower and authority are built
into the conclave, which I findvery interesting.
That really is a democraticprocess in some ways.
Yeah, the conclave, which Ifind very interesting.
That really is a democraticprocess in some ways.
Yeah, all right.
Well, thank you all very much,and I want to thank all of you
for listening to Church Potluckand, if you have a moment, I
think we're going to probablysay a few things here and there

(43:24):
before we take off.
I want to thank our audiencefor sitting around the table
with us today.
I hope we provided yousomething to chew on and some
food for thought and, like Isaid, we'll have a few thoughts
after here and, if you thinkabout this, we're going to be
doing some more Church Potluckepisodes coming up here, and so
I appreciate your support and,if you think of it.
Please consider subscribing andrating us, because we're going

(43:46):
to start getting more involvedin social media here.
So until we gather around thetable next time.
This has been Church Potluckand thank you for listening.

Speaker 2 (43:57):
All right, I'm going to go and take my headphones off
.
I think that it's been plenty.

Speaker 4 (44:02):
So Larry Dale sent this morning.

Speaker 2 (44:03):
I assume a chat GPT if of me wearing a Pope hat.

Speaker 1 (44:09):
Even though.

Speaker 2 (44:09):
I definitely.
I do not meet the requirementsfor a Pope hat.

Speaker 1 (44:13):
It was debating whether we should go a few more
minutes and just talk aboutwho's eligible, because you
don't have to be a cardinalright, but you do have to be a
man.

Speaker 2 (44:20):
You do have to be a man.
Yeah, and baptized.

Speaker 3 (44:24):
Well you have to be well, yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah,
yeah.
So you, I mean, I don't know,have there been any lay people
who have been then ordained andbecame pope?

Speaker 4 (44:35):
Early on, early on, but that's unlikely to happen.
Yeah, no, there'd be no reasonfor it to happen now.
But yeah, it happened quite abit in those first couple
hundred years actually.

Speaker 2 (44:43):
I think, even though it's not like formal
requirements, you're alsoexpected to be reasonable, right
, so that you know, because itis a huge organization to run,
and so this idea that you are.

Speaker 1 (44:55):
Well, almost every pope I remember when they talk
about the credential is justamazingly educated in multiple
ways.

Speaker 4 (45:01):
But you wouldn't have to be a cardinal or a bishop I
mean they could in theory pick apriest.
I mean there's absolutely norequirement that they Is there a
requirement that you'rebaptized Catholic?

Speaker 3 (45:12):
Well, I mean, you don't have to be baptized
Catholic, but you would have tobe confirmed as a Catholic, and
I'm pretty sure that you'd haveto be, as they say, at least an
ordained priest.

Speaker 4 (45:23):
In other words, you don't have to be anything above
that.
But, I don't think that theywould these days, would take a
layperson and not even PresidentTrump.

Speaker 2 (45:30):
Right.

Speaker 4 (45:30):
These days would take a layperson and not even
President Trump.

Speaker 2 (45:34):
Right.
So I did wonder, like you know,since the vice president is
Catholic, whether he was likehey, tone it down, or whether he
just rolls off his back becauseyou know he's joking, or yeah,
or if he's a cafeteria Catholic.
I don't think so.

Speaker 1 (45:52):
I don't think so.
In fact, I could be way wrongabout this, but I think he
converted to Catholicism.
Yeah, and was it?
The Atlantic, or some newsoutlet had a really interesting
piece that I've tagged buthaven't read yet, about how very
often it's the convertedCatholics who are far more
doctrine-based and very, youknow, hardcore, but that's just

(46:12):
it.

Speaker 4 (46:12):
If, for some reason, they were to pick somebody on
the more progressive end I meanthen the ones that are more
conservative decide they're justnot going to go along with it.
There's always an element ofcafeteria, I think.

Speaker 1 (46:23):
Yeah, no matter who's chosen?
Yeah, something I like goingback to your ineligibility,
christy.
Something I like telling mystudents when we talk about
religion is that the two mostmajor Christian bodies in the
United States, the CatholicChurch and Southern Baptist,
don't agree on much, but theycome together in unity and know

(46:45):
women in the highest leadershippositions.
This is true and just growingup in that kind of climate, did
you ever question that?
Or was it just okay?
That's just the way it is.

Speaker 2 (46:54):
No, I think I always saw nuns and I did have a couple
of nuns as teachers growing up.
One of them was a principal ofour high school.

Speaker 4 (47:02):
I always thought that was-.
Did you go to a Catholic school?
Yeah, I went to Catholic.

Speaker 2 (47:04):
Yeah, I always thought that was kind of like
for women in religious ordersthat was kind of the path, so
that it wasn't the same as beinga priest.
But there was an alternate pathfor women and I was okay with
that, although there was alittle like when I was in
elementary school, for like Idon't know a month, they were

(47:26):
like, oh, we're going to traingirls to be altar servers and
I'm like, oh, this is great.
And so I got trained andeverything.
And then the bishop was like no, this isn't happening, but now
it has.
You know, every church I go tonow Catholic church I go to
there's girls who serve, and sohave you ever gone and offered?

Speaker 1 (47:41):
Said hey.

Speaker 2 (47:42):
I'm all trained, I'm all trained and ready to go.

Speaker 3 (47:44):
I know that Francis had established a commission to
look into female deacons.
Women deacons which is part ofthe tradition in the early
church and is mentioned inscripture too, but that just
went nowhere.
That's one of the things thatmany of the critics of Francis
who were more on the progressiveside said.
The fact that kind of was youknow, quashed, you know was not,

(48:04):
didn't really result in anyclear decisions.
That's another aspect of wherehe talked like a progressive,
but he really didn't make anymajor moves.

Speaker 4 (48:15):
But that's a perfect example of like that sort of
Damocles.
If he were allowed to allowthat, the more conservative
churches would just have a fit.

Speaker 2 (48:22):
Yeah, and just, I mean, this is the one thing I
think that's from being such along-lasting institution you
bring it up and then who knowswhat happens a decade or two
decades down the road.
And so I do think there is, youknow, to just start.
It is good.

Speaker 1 (48:37):
And there's a very practical issue here.
Right, because there's ashortage of priests and it's
very difficult to have peopleserving the Eucharist.
Right, there are women whoactually do serve the Eucharist
in certain contexts.

Speaker 3 (48:52):
Am I saying that correctly?
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (48:52):
Eucharistic ministers who are women.
Yeah, that's fine.
That hasn't been an issue, asfar as I know, for a long time.

Speaker 4 (48:59):
Though I suppose that they probably could solve a lot
of the priest shortage if theyjust allowed married priests.

Speaker 2 (49:05):
I wonder if that would happen before women were
allowed to serve as priests.

Speaker 4 (49:09):
I think it probably would.

Speaker 3 (49:10):
Now there was something in South America, I
think, in some of the moreremote areas of South America,
where they were talking aboutand I think Francis was
supporting having older marriedmen who were Catholics in good
standing serving as priests.
But that was another initiativethat really didn't go anywhere.
Because a lot of theconservatives said well, this is
just the slippery slope leadingto opening up the priesthood to

(49:33):
married men, and then, once youdo that, then you can open it
up to women, and then who knowswhat's next.

Speaker 2 (49:39):
I do wonder if it's just like a.
We need a better recruitmentdrive for religious orders.
I mean I know one of yourstudents.
I was talking to is trying tobecome a priest.
You're doing my part.
Oh yeah, thank you, mike, Iappreciate it.

Speaker 4 (49:52):
It just takes forever .
Because when I was teaching atthe Jesuit University, I had a
student and one time we weretalking in the hall and I asked
him what he wanted to do and hesaid, well, I want to be a
Jesuit.
And I thought, OK.
But then years later, 20 yearslater, I was back there and, by

(50:20):
God, literally it takes foreverto do it.
And then you're really at themercy of the order.
Because, again, I worked withtwo people in the history
department who had PhDs, wereJesuits, and they yanked him off
the faculty to do somethingelse.
In fact, one just recently hegot tender there.
So, in other words, he did thewhole process you're supposed to
do.
He was well-liked by thedepartment, but all of a sudden
they reassigned him.
And I'm not sure where this isgoing, other than the fact that
you know you got to go wherethey tell you.

Speaker 1 (50:42):
And you know the United Methodist Church is
actually a lot like that as well.
Now I was going to be ordained.
I won't go into my wholehistory but I ended up stopping
at the local pastor level and soI didn't have the same level of
commitment or responsibility.
But if you're ordained an elderin the United Methodist Church,
you go where they send you.
It's an appointment process andthey try very hard to be

(51:02):
amenable to what your familysituation is.
But yeah, you go where we'recalled.
It's submitting to an authority.
It's very unusual in today'sworld.

Speaker 4 (51:13):
Maybe they're Catholic-lite.

Speaker 1 (51:17):
Well, we are Episcopalian-lite.

Speaker 4 (51:18):
That is.

Speaker 3 (51:19):
Catholic-lite.
I mean, we really are.

Speaker 1 (51:20):
I mean so we are Anglican-lite.

Speaker 3 (51:24):
Well, it all goes back to the Catholic Church
eventually.
It's just how far we've movedwe.

Speaker 1 (51:30):
Methodists try to have it all.
We try to reach up to thesacramental folks and we try to
reach down to the lower churchfolks and we try to yeah, this
is fine, this is fine.
We're kind of.
That's why I do church politics.

Speaker 2 (51:42):
Right, a little bit of everything, a little bit of
this and a little bit of that,so great, all right.

Speaker 1 (51:47):
Well, thank you all very much.
And I forgot to tell theaudience.
If any of you are stilllistening out there, we are
going to do a follow-up episode,hopefully when the Pope is
selected, and we've already gota couple of folks who weren't
able to be part of this panelwho want to be part of the next.
Maybe we'll bring a couple ofy'all back.
Give Larry another mug.

Speaker 3 (52:06):
Sounds good.
How many mugs do you have?

Speaker 4 (52:10):
It'll be time for a jacket next.

Speaker 1 (52:11):
Yeah, it'll be time for a jacket next, you know what
I actually looked on, timo, tofind out how cheaply you could
get a little robe when y'all hitfive episodes.

Speaker 3 (52:23):
I was going to get it .
I think I should have severalof them.

Speaker 4 (52:26):
It's like stripes on it and stuff.

Speaker 1 (52:28):
Y'all can't see, but Chrissy's just shaking her head
back and forth.

Speaker 2 (52:31):
Well, I'm just thinking like the terror, she's
not going to be able to affordanything from Timo soon.

Speaker 1 (52:35):
Yeah, I should have gotten one when I could.

Speaker 4 (52:38):
What's Timo?

Speaker 2 (52:40):
Oh, it's like a cheap Chinese.

Speaker 1 (52:44):
It's really cheap.
You buy things you know dimeson the dollar, but you get
exactly what you pay for.
I've never ordered from it buton the dollar, but you get
exactly what you pay for.

Speaker 4 (52:52):
I've never ordered from it.
It won't be cheap anymore, Iguess.

Speaker 1 (52:56):
No, I guess not, I guess not, all right.

Speaker 4 (52:57):
Well, thank you, thank you all very much, thank
you.