Transgender Clergy and the Quest for Inclusive Faith

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As Church Potluck makes its return from an extended break, we're setting the table to feast on a diversity of Christian experiences and insights. Our latest episode serves up an intimate look at the complex and controversial intersection of faith and transgender identity. We are joined by two transgender clergy members, Rev. Kimble Sorrells and Rev. Andi Woodworth, who each share their personal and spiritual journeys with us. We are also joined by students from my (Dale's) class on the sociology of sex,  gender, and sexuality, with several of them asking questions.  Regardless of where you fall on the theological spectrum, we hope you find the podcast informative.

The views expressed on Church Potluck are solely those of the participants and do not represent any organization.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hi, this is Dale McConkey, host of Church Pot.
Look, I wanted to take a coupleof minutes to share three news
items with you before we startthe episode.
First, you may have noticedthat we have been on hiatus for
a few months and my apologiesfor that.
I way overextended myself lastsemester.
But we're back up and runningand hopefully we'll be providing
regular episodes with you allthroughout the rest of the year.

(00:22):
Second, what do you do when youjust apologize for being
overextended?
You announce a new podcast.
This will be an experimentalpodcast that tracks my deep dive
this year, both personally andprofessionally, with Jesus
Movies, and the podcast is goingto be called Jesus Christ Movie
Star.
Jesus Christ Movie Star.

(01:13):
This is going to be a veryexperimental thing.
It may be a short-lived thing,it may be a sustainable thing we
will find out but I'm going tofocus on Jesus Movies this
semester, so I thought of my aswe'll go ahead and share them
with you all.
So stay tuned for an episode,definitely by next week sometime
.
And finally, today's episodewas recorded back in October In
my sex and gender class lastsemester.
I invited two clergy friendswho also identify as transgender

(01:35):
and then they spoke to my classand in fact, you'll hear my
class asking questions in thisepisode.
But then our guests spoke at acampus lecture in the evening
and the auditorium was filledwith capacity.
In fact, they had to turn somestudents away because of the
fire codes, and I know thisissue of transgenderism and
everything around LGBTQ mattersis a very controversial topic.

(01:58):
My goal at Church Potluck is toprovide opportunities to learn
about a variety of religiousperspectives, so I hope you
enjoy hearing about theseclergy's experiences, no matter
where you fall on thetheological spectrum.
Okay, on with the show.
Three, two, one.
So how has the day been so far?

Speaker 3 (02:20):
It's been alright Good to go.
Yeah, it's had a good drive.
Chicken pop on.

Speaker 1 (02:23):
Right, Kimball, you are back on campus for not the
first time since you were astudent, but what's been the
biggest striking thing for you?
Oh?

Speaker 4 (02:34):
I was just telling you yeah, I walked in and Evans
Hall still smells exactly thesame and everything else is
different.

Speaker 1 (02:41):
That's what you all have to look forward to.
The college smells from EvansHall.
Well, welcome everyone toChurch Potluck, where we are
serving up a smorgasbord ofChristian curiosity.
I'm your host.
Y'all can't laugh at that.
Alright, this is going to bebad, bad, bad.
I'm your host, dale McConkey,sociology professor and United

(03:04):
Methodist pastor, and you knowthere are two keys to a good
Church Potluck Plenty of varietyand engaging conversation.
And this is exactly what we aretrying to do on Church Potluck
sitting down with friends andsharing our ideas from a variety
of topics, from a variety ofacademic disciplines and a
variety of Christian traditions.
We have two very special gueststo introduce to you today.

(03:29):
First of all, I just get openit up and just let you all
introduce yourself from thebeginning Sure.

Speaker 3 (03:34):
My name is Andy Woodworth and I use she they
pronouns.
I'm one of the pastors ofNeighborhood Church in Atlanta,
Georgia, and I'm also a UnitedMethodist clergy person.

Speaker 1 (03:43):
That is awesome and we usually this is what we
usually do when we introduce ourguests but we have a live
audience and so let's see if thelive audience can out do the
techno applause.
So could you all just welcomeAndy for us.
Oh, that is not as good as this.
This is much louder, so anyway,but thank you, that was a good

(04:05):
effort.
Okay, and our second guest wehave Kimball Sorrells.

Speaker 4 (04:08):
Yes, my name's Kimball and I use they them
pronouns or he him pronouns.
Both are fine and I am a Barryalum and I am a ordained
minister in the United Church ofChrist and also my day job.
I work at Emory's Center forContemplative Science and
Compassion Based Ethics, or aswe like to just sometimes call
it, the Compassion Center.

Speaker 1 (04:29):
Thank you very much.
Here's the automatic applauseand now the class applause.
All right, no cheering, thoughthere was applause, but I didn't
hear the cheering like I heardon the automatic applause there.
So I can tell we're doingsomething very different than
we've ever done on Church ofPollock before.
We have a live audience wherewe are recording this.
During my one of my upper levelcourses, the sociology of sex,

(04:52):
gender and sexuality, and Andyand Kimball just finished
talking to my sociology ofreligion class, and so we're
working them hard and we broughtthem on campus to also do a
lecture this evening, and thetitle of that lecture is
Ministry of Transformation aconversation with Transclergy,
and so by that title you mighthave been able to surmise by now

(05:13):
that both Andy and Kimballidentify as trans.
And Andy and Kimball, we'regoing to start right now.
I've already told you aboutthis blue button here.
This blue button is for you topress.
I downloaded it especially.
Usually we're very affirming onChurch of Pollock and we use
this whenever you get somethingright, but this blue button here
is for you to press anytime Imisgender you, anytime I use

(05:36):
awkward or inappropriate wording.
This is what you need to pressthis for, all right.
So that is that myconversations with my son.
Whenever we're talking aboutissues and I'm talking about
someone I know who is trans,I'll say she goes them and then
goes to the next thing with her.
That's right, he doesn't havethe button, but he just keeps
correcting me.
You use the term in elasticityin the last class.

(05:57):
My brain, for whatever reason,tends to be very inelastic,
despite whatever good intentionsI have, and so you just
practice right now.

Speaker 3 (06:05):
There you go.
All right, we're having thisbutton.
I need one of these buttons.

Speaker 4 (06:08):
No, can we get this in church?

Speaker 1 (06:09):
Yeah, for all sorts of reasons, the congregation
might want that for your sermon.
Exactly right.
All right, let's just start offby letting you all jump in.
However you want to tell yourstories as being trans, I'm sure
, is a distinctive enoughmoniker.
That was me that pressed thatone that time, but that is as a

(06:34):
very distinctive characteristicto have.
But then to be trans and to beclergy, you must be in a very
tiny sliver of the globalpopulation and the US population
.
So go ahead and tell us alittle bit about your
experiences, however you want.

Speaker 3 (06:48):
Yeah, there's not a lot of us and we have meetings
we do.
Yeah, we've met at the meetings.
We've met at the meetings,that's right.
So, yeah, like this is Andy andI grew up in Atlanta and was a
part of a pretty progressiveUnited Methodist congregation,
growing up and went into theMethodist ministry after
seminary and, after a briefstint running a Presbyterian
summer camp and then about sevenyears into my ministry as an

(07:14):
elder of the United MethodistChurch, I was given the
opportunity to help start a newcongregation called Neighborhood
Church and around 40 years old.
While I was serving atneighborhood, realized that I
was trans and decided that Ineeded to transition for myself
and just for my health andmental health and commitment to

(07:34):
being who God made me to be, andso started that process not too
many years ago, and so I'mabout four years into my
transition journey and all ofthat has gone remarkably well.
Wow, yeah, so I'm blessed to beable to be trans and also still
be a pastor.

Speaker 1 (07:50):
That's very interesting, and you said that
it's about four year process.
Is that also about as long asyou sort of came out to your
congregation, or has it beenmore recent than that?

Speaker 3 (07:58):
It's been a blended journey.
So I started the process oftransitioning right in January
of 2020 and figured oh, I'llkind of explore some of this
stuff.
And then we had COVID, and so Iwas inside of my house for a
very long time figuring somestuff out and going through the
process of a medical transition,so doing hormone replacement

(08:20):
therapy, and then when westarted to come back to
in-person stuff about a year anda half later actually I don't
know how long othercongregations did the stay away
thing, but we did that for abouta year and a half and when we
started coming back in person, Ishowed up as myself because
that's the best way to show upto a thing as it turns out and
shared with folks that I wasrealizing that I was non-binary

(08:43):
and I describe myself as trans,feminine, non-binary.
I think if you saw me on thestreet you would say, oh my gosh
, she looks just like CourtneyCox, except taller and maybe
even more radiantly gorgeous.
So this is a podcast.
You can't really tell that, buteverybody here in this room
knows that right, how dazzlinglyattractive I am.
Yes, of course, that's theright answer, thank you.

Speaker 1 (09:05):
So the class knows they can't hear you on the
podcast shaking your head up anddown.
You have to do somethingaudible to make it work.

Speaker 3 (09:11):
Yes, oh you got a career in this here.
Kim, you can buzz me for allthat.
I need stuff that I'm throwingin here.
But once we came back toin-person stuff, I was able to
just sort of show up as myself,but I was really concerned about
telling too much about who Iwas learning myself to be to the
internet.

(09:31):
I didn't want to kind of comeout in a sermon or something
like that without knowing whatthe consequences would be with
my congregation or with mydenomination, and so I ended up
having some conversation with mychurch leadership, my
congregational leadership andthen my bishop and some other
leaders, and after gettingbasically affirmative answers

(09:54):
from all of those folks veryaffirming answers then I decided
to come out to the world in anot a sermon, but a testimonial
moment in worship in March of2022.
So about a year and a half agoat this point.

Speaker 1 (10:08):
Okay, and I want to definitely talk more about that
and coming out to the world onthe internet a little bit later.
But, kimball, you jump in here.
I want to talk a little bitabout your faith journey and
your journey coming out as trans.

Speaker 4 (10:19):
Sure.
So I grew up in Birmingham,alabama, and as a young kid
wasn't necessarily going tochurch but eventually did start
going to church in the SouthernBaptist church in a youth group
setting and at the time had sortof a I guess we might call it a
sort of dramatic conversionexperience where I was sort of
praying for God to speak to meand then the pastor got up and

(10:43):
talked about Romans one and notbeing gay and so I as a so did
kind of the ex gay thing for ahot minute.
And how long was a hot minute?
Oh, several years.
So that was kind of highschool-ish time.
And then I ended up coming hereto Barry.
College was in one shapeprogram was still kind of deeply
in the evangelical world.

Speaker 1 (11:04):
And probably all of you out there, know the wind
shape program.
We most of our listeners, Ithink have some kind of very
connected connection.
But the wind shape program howwould you describe it?
As someone who was an insiderin the wind shape program?

Speaker 4 (11:15):
Sure, I would say that the short version is that
and then maybe this is theofficial version is that it's a
leadership, christian leadershipprogram.
It's funded by Chick-fil-AEveryone is on mountain campus I
assume they still are thesedays.
But that's sort of the shortversion and definitely in the
evangelical kind of flavor ofthings.
So came to Barry and was stilltrying to do that whole ex-gay

(11:39):
thing and it wasn't reallyworking and was studying
psychology and sort of learningabout the science of gender and
sexuality and realizing thatthis is not something that I can
change and really also I was areligion major and so studying
religion and helping me to sortof deconstruct the understanding
of the Bible that I had grownup with and that shifted through
my time at college really to beable to see my at the time I

(12:03):
didn't even have a concept of mygender, but at least my
sexuality, as being somethingthat wasn't an opposition of my
faith.
I won't go in too much detailnow but I'll kind of skip to the
head of the short version andfast forward.
A few years went to seminarysort of late in seminary was
when I was able to sort of startarticulating my gender and kind
of by for the first time,hearing other trans people's

(12:24):
stories and saying, oh okay,that sounds like me, I came to
understand myself as non-binary.
I, at this point, had longsince left the Evangelical
Church and was in the ordinationprocess of the United Church of
Christ, which is a veryaffirming denomination.

Speaker 1 (12:38):
You made it in my sociology of religion class.
You did a good job sayingUnited Church of Christ is very
different from Church of Christ.
Those of you who are familiarwith Church of Christ down here
in the south, that's a veryconservative denomination.
The UCC United Church of Christis more rooted in the north and
much more of a actuallyprobably one of the most
progressive denominations inAmerican Christianity.

Speaker 4 (12:58):
Yeah, it's a very progressive Christian
denomination.
I think we are predominantly upnorth because we have so much
of our history is tied tocongregationalism basically.
So people down in the south maynot have heard of us, but I
ended up in UCC.
But even in this sort of veryprogressive, affirming
denomination did experience somechallenges in the ordination

(13:19):
process kind of especially in myconference there hadn't been
any ordained trans clergy yet.
Even though we had beenordaining trans people in the
denomination for some time,there definitely wasn't anyone
that was non-binary.
And so there's just some bumpsin the road, which I always say,
even in sort of a progressivesetting, and I think in some
ways that delayed a little bitof my transition, especially

(13:39):
sort of my medical transition.
So, even as I was kind offiguring out pronouns and stuff,
I sort of a little bit heldback and delayed, I think a
little bit as I was kind oftrying to also navigate this
ordination process, but sort ofas I was navigating that and was
ordained in I think it was 2014.
Oh man, where's my memory?
Not long after that, I thinkfelt a little bit more freedom

(14:00):
to kind of more fully live intothat and begin my medical
transition not long after.
And yeah, I guess the rest ishistory.
And that's the short version.
That's kind of short version,it's still long-winded.

Speaker 1 (14:11):
Let's take a step back, for I think my class
probably knows these terms well.
But for those who are listeningon the podcast, who may not be
as familiar, just a real quickdefinition of trans.
Real quick definition ofnon-binary.
What are you both meeting whenyou're using those terms?

Speaker 3 (14:25):
Sure, I think a really basic way of thinking
about being trans and or beingcis right, being transgender or
being cisgender and cis is….
C-i-s correct it's, if youremember your Latin roots.
Cis means….

Speaker 1 (14:37):
Which I don't.

Speaker 3 (14:38):
Oh no, if I ever knew them to begin with, but….
Cis means on the same side of,and trans means across or on the
other side of, and, like in oldRoman maps, they would have
cis-alpine gall or trans-alpinegall, meaning the part of gall
that was across the mountains orthe part of gall that was on
the close side of the mountains,this side of the mountains

(14:59):
closer to the city of Rome.
All that means is, if we'reassigned a gender at birth, if
you are cisgender, then you areon the same side of that gender
that you were assigned at birth.
So it's you identify with thegender you were assigned.
And if you're transgender, thenyou don't identify with the
gender that you were assigned atbirth and you identify as some
other gender, and that could bea binary gender, meaning male or

(15:21):
female or masculine or feminineor some other position on some
broader spectrum or 3D orb, orhow do you want to envision that
.
It gets complicated, but that'ssort of where we get into how
we might describe folks as beingnon-binary.

Speaker 4 (15:34):
Yeah.
So to give an example, ifsomeone was born and the doctor
said it's a girl, and they growup and they were like yep, I'm a
girl, that person is acisgender person.
If that person grows up andsaid, eh, actually I'm not a
girl, and maybe they say I'm aboy, or maybe they say I'm
non-binary, that person would betransgender or non-binary,
depending on which language theyprefer.

Speaker 1 (15:54):
Is there a distinction in your mind between
non-binary and queer?

Speaker 4 (15:59):
Yes, I think so, yeah , go for it.

Speaker 3 (16:02):
Queer is an interesting term in that, like
some other terms maybeoriginally was used very
pejoratively and it has beenreclaimed by a community and it
was used originally as kind of aperson that was funny right,
Like they were queer, and sothat was used in a pejorative
sense that way and I thinkpeople are reclaiming it to say,
yeah, I am not in the norm andthat can mean both in terms of

(16:24):
gender, or it could be in termsof sexuality or something else
there are some ways it's evenbroader, and so, yeah, come out
in the streets, dale.
There's people who use the wordqueer for all kinds of stuff,
and it is tricky to kind of evendefine or to set firm limits as
to say, you know, you don't getto call yourself queer, right.
But there's folks that woulduse the word queer to define

(16:46):
themselves in terms of theirsexuality or their gender or
some other aspect of themselves,or both.

Speaker 1 (16:50):
Yeah, you want to play a game show?
I suppose I'll play a game show.
All right, rapid fire.
I'm going to ask you somequestions and you're going to do
this as fast as you can.
It never ends up being rapid,so if we end up having
conversations but the goal israpid fire, all right.
Biggest misconception peoplehave regarding folks who have a

(17:13):
transgender identity.

Speaker 4 (17:15):
The biggest?
Oh, that's a good question.

Speaker 1 (17:18):
So much for rapid fire.

Speaker 3 (17:20):
I'm going to shoot from the hip and say that one of
the things that I come upagainst is actually the word
transgender, meaning somebodythat has, is picking up a gender
other than what they were.
If that makes sense, if youwere assigned, like in my case,
assigned male at birth and thenyou realize that you're not a
boy, that you become transgender, and actually the way that I
understand it and the way that Ithink a lot of people

(17:41):
understand it is I was alwaysnot a boy.
I just didn't know the wordsfor that.
So I haven't really changed mygender as much as recognized
that my gender was incorrectlyaligned with what they told me
that I was when I was born.

Speaker 1 (17:56):
I thought you had very interesting points in the
last class which our listenersdid not hear, nor the class
heard about just not having aword for it, not having a label
for your identity and your senseof self, and then hearing other
people describe it.
All of a sudden gave you acategory to describe this.
I thought that was veryinteresting.

Speaker 3 (18:14):
Yeah, exactly, that's very much my experience.
It took me going on a personalretreat to a friends like house
and wandering through YouTubebelieve it or not, young people
for the better part of a week,until I came across some
YouTubers that describethemselves as both trans and
non-binary and trans feminine.
All those words were part ofhow they describe themselves and
it helped me to realize what Iwas experiencing and to put my

(18:37):
experience into those categories.

Speaker 4 (18:39):
Yeah, I think we're I'm going to age us here, but
back in my day we didn't havethe TikTok, so it was actually,
yeah, until several years aftercollege that I Maybe really a
year or two after college that Iheard someone articulate a
trans masculine experience andit was just like, oh, I look

(18:59):
like that, that's me, which isone of the things that actually,
as much as there's a lot offlack about social media, one of
the things that I think is awonderful gift with social media
has allowed people to sharetheir experiences and really
start to find that languageearlier.

Speaker 3 (19:15):
The very old, first uses of the internet to connect
people are on bulletin boards,those kinds of groups where
people are finding each other.
That's still happening in someplaces Like Reddit.
I mean other kind of thingswhere people that are scattered
all over the world that maybewould never ever find each other
for a variety of reasons areable to find each other and to
share the language around theirexperiences, and that's been a

(19:37):
great gift to me, yeah.

Speaker 1 (19:39):
Great.
Thank you all very much.
Good answer, all right, mosthurtful or insulting thing
someone said to you because ofyour transgender identity.

Speaker 4 (19:48):
I guess I'll start with this, and I think this
really goes kind of back to themisconceptions of.
I think people can say thingslike I'm actually doing it so
much mind if they say it's a sinas much as like.
Sometimes people like reallypathologize Is that a word?

Speaker 3 (20:02):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (20:04):
And sometimes people and they say like you're sick or
there's something wrong withyou.
And then sometimes there'sworse things.
Trying to not put gasling onthe fire, but some of the things
that really get kind of thrownat trans people that were.
I won't go into that, butthings get said about us,
especially sort of in the kindof legislative atmosphere that
we're in right now, that justthoughts, accusations that make

(20:25):
us out to be these monsters.
And I'm just over here tryingto work, trying to pay the bills
.

Speaker 3 (20:31):
Exactly right.
I'm at Kroger, I'm buying stuff.
That's my gay agenda.
You know what I mean.
The queer agenda at theWoodward House is like me
finding some yogurt.
That's kind of it.
Sometimes it's out of stock tooit is out of stock.
Yes, they don't have the honeyvanilla.

Speaker 4 (20:44):
I know.

Speaker 3 (20:45):
They just have the plain and I got to deal with it.

Speaker 4 (20:46):
I know it's tragic.

Speaker 3 (20:48):
It's awful.

Speaker 4 (20:49):
I'm like they think that we have these elaborate,
scandalous lives and I'm likeyou do know I go to bed at 8.30,
right, I was at an event Is itAM or PM?

Speaker 3 (21:00):
Yeah, oh, okay, okay.
I was at an event, a conferencefor reconciling Methodists,
which is the queer affirmingkind of organization that's
working to work for queerinclusion in the United
Methodist Church, and it wassort of scattered right and I
was like I would really haveappreciated a queer agenda here.

Speaker 4 (21:19):
You know what I mean.

Speaker 3 (21:20):
I mean, can we get back to the queer agenda?
Yes, we've got queer anarchyright now.

Speaker 4 (21:25):
Yeah, we get that way sometimes.

Speaker 1 (21:27):
I don't know if I should do that or if it was
hurtful.
Maybe I should do that, butwe'll go on to the next one.
How about the most supportive,encouraging thing?
Someone?
What was it?
What was a moment of just atrue encouragement that you got
from someone?

Speaker 4 (21:38):
I actually can start.
So one of the things that wasreally beautiful for me early in
my transition, I'd haddifferent times where I'll give
a contrast of not-so-affirmingwhich was going forward to
receive communion and two timesas this happened, one I was
going forward to receivecommunion and the person was and
I was very conscious of mynon-binaryness and was not very
masculine presenting at the time, was very androgynous and the

(22:00):
presider was saying my brother,the body of Christ, my sister,
the body of Christ, everyone whocame forward and I kind of
panicked and I almost didn't goup to the table.

Speaker 1 (22:08):
You were afraid you were going to get that right.
Yeah, I did.

Speaker 4 (22:11):
I was like and I decided to keep going, only
because I knew that thisprofessor, susan Kinner, had a
lesbian daughter.
And I was like, maybe theywon't screw it up and they just
I got forward and they were like, oh, and they didn't try to
guess and they just said thebody of Christ.
And I was like, but also hadexperiences where that wasn't
the case, in actually in a queerChristian thing, where I went
up and I had my name and mypronouns and everything and this

(22:32):
person like totally misgenderedme, Contrast that I was with a
friend and this was the firsttime and this person was praying
for me.
It was the first time anyonehad ever used my pronouns in
prayer.
It surprised me how affirmingit was to have that be seen in
that space, because it wassomething that was so used to
not being seen in sacred space.

Speaker 3 (22:53):
Absolutely, yeah, Absolutely.
I'm trying to think about asuper affirming experience.
For me it would be somethingvery similar.
I have made a fair amount ofnew friends since coming out.
I think one of the things thatI'm experiencing I don't know
about you, but through mytransition I've become more
social, if that makes sense likea certain layer of anxiety.
I don't think that's true forKimball.

Speaker 1 (23:13):
Those of you who don't know Kimball, that's an
introvert.
Their Facebook is just floodedwith introvert comments
throughout.

Speaker 3 (23:20):
But I've made a fair amount of new friends and I have
heard both indirectly anddirectly from these new friends
that they just want 100% see meas a girl.
They're like your femininity ispalpable and we feel nurtured
by it and all those things, thatkind of language, just really
small language, or smallgestures, where people bring me

(23:41):
flowers and stuff like that isjust really affirming and that's
happening all the time.

Speaker 4 (23:46):
Can you I'm going to ask a question, I'm going
totally rogue here Can you tellthe folks about?
I visited Andy's churchrecently just for funsies.
You sang a song that yourchurch wrote about God and
pronouns and things.

Speaker 3 (23:59):
Yeah, the song is called All Y'all.
We have a group of musiciansthat are trying to write new
music and the song All Y'all hasa tagline on if it's the chorus
or the bridge or whatever.
But it's hard, the song is.
I think the quote is somethinglike God was not surprised at a
pronoun change.
God was not surprised when Ifound a new name.
God was shining down.

(24:20):
When I found a new name, godwas smiling down at my pronoun
change, something like that.
It's been a thing that I wonderif actually I have no idea if I
was the inspiration for thatsong.
I don't think that I wasactually, because it's a part of
the life of our congregation.
Actually, that musician had aromantic partner who went

(24:41):
through a gender transition aswell.
It's.
We're trying to incorporatethat, that affirmation and that
love, into our worship as well.

Speaker 1 (24:48):
Good stuff, all right , let's get into some.
Let's get into some religionhere, all right.
I suspect there are many peoplelistening on the podcast who
are coming from traditions thatare much more conservative, and
this is just a that even thingslike same-sex marriage is still
very unfamiliar anduncomfortable for them, so let

(25:09):
alone moving into transgenderidentity.
So what would you say to folkswho say just look it up, the
very first chapter of Genesis,god made them male and female.
God made you a particular way.
Why would you want to changethe way God made you?

Speaker 4 (25:26):
That is one of my favorite Bible verses for the
gender.

Speaker 3 (25:30):
It is the source of kind of a lot of our thought
about gender and thought abouthow God has made us One of the
things that we were talkingabout earlier actually preparing
for all of this time today andthere are some really wonderful
trans authors and theologiansand thinkers.
Austin Harky is one of them andMiles Markham is another one.

Speaker 1 (25:48):
Well wait, we got another button for that Citation
.
Yeah, we academic, we could.
We could go on citations.
Oh, look at Kimball getting allexcited.
Like you get academic citation,okay Go ahead and something I
didn't say about Kimball Imentioned this to my sociology
of religion class, but I haven'tsaid it on the podcast yet is
that I think you probably holdthe record for most after-class

(26:10):
questions by a student.
That in all the classes I evertaught which I'm saying is a
perfectly positive thing thatyou are definitely a religious
seeker.
Back then, lots of questions toask you.

Speaker 4 (26:20):
I'm going to get like a scout badge for that.
I think like a patch.

Speaker 3 (26:24):
Yes, we all like a patch.
Yes.
So these thinkers, austin Harkyand Miles Markham, have a
really wonderful piece that youcan read about on the Human
Rights Campaign website andelsewhere actually.
But they talk about the imagein Scripture of these of
elements of creation.
Right, if you talk about the inthe creation.
God made day and night, god madethe land and the sea, and these

(26:49):
are poetic aspects of Hebrewwriting.
These are kind of technique inHebrew poetry to describe
perhaps the poles of a spectrum.
So when we say God made the dayand the night, we're not
denying that God made, forexample, the dawn or the dusk,
these in-between times.

(27:09):
When we say that God made theland and the sea, we're not
denying that God made estuariesor swamps or whatever these kind
of in-between places.
And so when it says that Godmade us humanity, male and
female, in this Hebrew poeticstyle, it also includes all of
the positions on a spectrumin-between those positions as

(27:30):
well.
That's one understanding ofScripture to say that humanity
is a broad spectrum of genderand other kinds of identities.
We're not just two things.

Speaker 4 (27:40):
Yeah, and now that I think that in that regard I
always say that trans people area gift to the church because we
reflect a different facet ofthe image of God or the Mago day
, because if you read that andsay God made male and female in
God's image and that is aninteresting plural there then
God transcends, intentionalponder, encompasses and

(28:03):
transcends both masculine andfeminine and everything in
between.
So I think being trans is agift in that regard and I think
we see that in other faithtraditions too, where a lot of
times trans people were seen asspiritual sages or things like
that.
Rabbi Elliot Kukla, I don'thave the quote with me, but I
will have it.

Speaker 1 (28:19):
We'll still give you a citation for it.
Citation, citation.

Speaker 4 (28:21):
Yes, but basically talks about how, in the Hebrew
tradition, the sages wereregarding these spaces of
twilight and dawn as the mostsacred times to pray.
And so this seeing gender andtrans identities as this liminal
space, as a vocation to liveinto that liminal space and sort

(28:41):
of to embody that liminalholiness that they saw as a very
holy, most holy time to pray.
I like to tell people so.
In seminary and I went to Emory, which is pretty progressive,
as the seminary goes, such thatthey require that you don't use
masculine language for God inyour papers, for example.
And so when I was trying toexplain non-binary to my

(29:03):
classmates who were very goodCandler students, and they were
like I don't understand, can youhelp me?
Neither, nor what's going on.
And so I'd say to them okay,it's got a man and good Candler
students, they're like oh no, ofcourse not.
I used gender-inclusive languagefor God, and I would say, okay,
it's got a woman.
And they're like, uh, no.
And I was like I am just morelike God than you are.
Oh, okay.
And so it's like it registered.

(29:26):
But I say that jokingly, but Ido think it is.
I see it as a gift and a giftto the church.

Speaker 3 (29:31):
Absolutely, absolutely, and I think that
there's a sense that these daysthere are more humans that are
sharing, that they have a transexperience of some kind, whether
they're like kind of a binarytrans person or they're a
non-binary person, and we haveto recognize that this is a
reality, right?
These aren't people making thisexperience up.
They're simply feeling morefree to be able to share and,

(29:54):
frankly, safe to sharethemselves and what it is that
they're experiencing.
And, as a Westland, I'm aperson that recognizes that the
source of our theology is, ofcourse, scripture, but also
tradition, reason and humanexperience, and so we need to be
able to incorporate theexperience of real human beings
into our theology, which ismaybe what we're doing right in

(30:15):
this moment.
But I think part of that issaying that if human beings have
trans experiences andapparently have been having them
the whole time do you know whatI mean?
Throughout history, we havealways been in different facets
and different cultures andshowing up in different ways,
and maybe it's true that this issome aspect about humanity that

(30:36):
God has created, and if God hasmade us, then we need to figure
out how to understand sociallywhere trans humans fit and,
frankly, if other human beingsdon't think I fit.
I don't think that's a Godproblem.
I think that's a human beingproblem and it's a problem of
marginalization, of people thataren't understood very well, and

(30:59):
we can get into more, maybe,why we're not understood and all
those kinds of things, but Iget into this in a sense of this
is a human being problem thatwe need to address, less a
theological one.

Speaker 1 (31:08):
I think we'll wait past rapid fire, but we'll still
do this.
All right, all right.

Speaker 4 (31:13):
Super slow, rapid fire.
I'm not a preacher is on apodcast.

Speaker 1 (31:17):
Yeah, that's a good point.
So I'm not promising related tothat.
I'm not promising that this ismy last question, but I do want
to start inviting our studentsto come in and ask you some
questions as well.
But I thought you all gave justa.
It was actually kind of abeautiful understanding of the
openness toward the transexperience within Christian
faith and making room for it inScripture.

(31:38):
That certainly doesn't seem tobe the typical way it's been
interpreted historically.
And Christianity I'm sure thatmost people would see this
Christianity is quite hostiletowards non-binary approach.
What makes you stay with thechurch?
Why would you all not just findyour own way somewhere in?

Speaker 4 (31:55):
somehow else you can't see this on the podcast,
but Andy is dancing withexcitement, so I'm going to let
you go first.

Speaker 3 (32:01):
Okay, so I'm a church planner and that's part of what
my role is in the churchecosystem is to start a new
church, and so we helped tobirth a new church, and I did
that with an impulse that thereare human beings outside of
traditional churches andexisting churches that need to
know about the love of God, andso I want to connect with those
humans.
So that's a part of my impulse,and what drives me into that
impulse, rather than kind ofperpetuating some kind of

(32:24):
oppressive system or somethinglike that, is, frankly, a strong
commitment and belief to thedoctrine of the incarnation.
That's where I kind of rootthis stuff for me.
So when we believe that God wasmade flesh in Jesus Christ,
that God became a human being inthe person of Jesus and that
Jesus Christ was fully human andfully divine, that means the

(32:46):
person of Jesus, the incarnatedGod, encompasses and enfolds all
of humanity.
And that means all of humanity.
That means all y'all, exactlyright, and that means all the
queer folks and all the gayfolks and all of the trans folks
and all the people of all ofthe broad spectrums of colors
and heights and sizes andlanguages.

(33:08):
John in the book of Revelationsays that he looks and lo, there
was a crowd without number thatwas filled with every kind of
person from every nation, race,tongue and tribe and I'm going
to smatter in and also a wholebunch of queer folks in there
too.
And I believe that, because Godis connected to all of humanity
in the person of Jesus, thatChristianity actually has a

(33:30):
strong connection to, even toqueer folks, to a sense of an
embodied spirituality that someof us don't connect to and most
of our daily theologicalreflections as Christians.
But it is absolutely the rootand core of what makes us
distinctive as a faith tradition.

Speaker 4 (33:46):
Yeah, I would say all of that resonates.
I would say I think how I danceto this has really shifted over
the years and I think earlierin my life it was the humblest
stubbornness of you can't, youcan't, steal my Jesus.
I think that was some of it.
I think I the message of Jesus,the teachings of Jesus, what I
see is the heart of Christianity, of loving, of doing justice.

(34:07):
That still tracks with me and Ithink you put it really well,
andy, of what's not a God, it'snot a.
It's not a God problem, it's apeople problem.
And so for me, I think I stilldeeply connect to the story.
I still deeply connect to theteachings of Jesus and to the
person of Jesus.
I would say, just sort of myown mystical experiences are

(34:29):
within this tradition and I lovethe Eucharist.
I have been able to sort ofseparate out some of the ways
that the church has caused harm.
I think, as someone who ispastoring outside of the church,
I think I would.
I think that I often also say Iwant to hold space, for if
someone has been hurt by thechurch and they need to leave, I

(34:52):
think that's okay and I want toname and honor that if it's
just too painful, it's just toopainful and that's okay.
And I believe that God is fullycapable of hanging out in the
yoga studio if that's where youfind your sense of calm.
So I just I want to say thatwhat I have kind of held onto is
for me, but I just want to, Iguess, pastorally honor that if

(35:14):
someone's not in that place,that's okay.
That's the chaplain, and youbecause you serve as a chaplain,
correct, I do sometimes serveas a chaplain.
I do serve as a chaplain withsome of the Candler students.
I have been a hospital chaplainbefore and I do spiritual
direction as well.
But I yeah, I think I've I kindof serve as a chaplain out in
the community, away from outsideof the church in some ways,
unofficially as well.
So great.

Speaker 1 (35:34):
I was trying to make a motion to encourage someone to
come and take a seat.
Come on, someone, be bold,don't all rush it.
Come on forward, jordan.

Speaker 4 (35:41):
Now this is where you do your song and dance while
with the other people.
That's right A littleintermission here.

Speaker 1 (35:45):
Go ahead and put your headphones on and identify
yourself and ask away.
Do you have a question?
Actually introduce yourself.

Speaker 6 (35:51):
Please, jordan, I use she her pronounce.
I did have a question about howyou guys still feel welcome in
the community, because I knowthere's a lot of people that are
not or are even advocating forpeople to get rid of stuff like
that, even inactive violencetowards people like that who are

(36:11):
associated with the church.
So I know.
I just had a question on how doyou continue to be like brave
and persevere through?

Speaker 1 (36:18):
That's a great question.
I mean part of my privilege isnever having to really worry
about that, or rarely having toworry about my safety.
Do you all live in fear whenyou're out in the community?

Speaker 3 (36:27):
Sometimes Do you want to start?
Yeah, I'm going to knock on athing and hopefully not mess up
the recording.
So I'm knocking on the whateverthis is metal, yeah, okay.
So I really don't typicallyfeel very afraid or anxious, but
I live in a bubble.
Do you know what I mean?
When I leave my bubble, thenthat's where certain anxiety
might come up, and when I was inthe middle, the early phases of
my transition, I would go toKroger and I thought I was going

(36:49):
to die Like just leaving thehouse.
I thought that was the scariestthing ever.

Speaker 1 (36:54):
Did you run into folks at Kroger who had not seen
you during the process oftransition or were terribly
confused?

Speaker 3 (37:00):
Really no, because in downtown Atlanta it's different
than the East Rome Social Clubhere in Rome, the Kroger, where
you see everybody and their mama, the Kroger that I go to you
might see some of the samepeople, but really not folks
that I would see all the time.
So basically I was going into aspace of random strangers and I
was still nervous that somebodywould be like look, there's one
of them, that kind of thing.
But that never, ever happenedand I still feel very privileged

(37:24):
to be in a space where I don'tfeel physically unsafe.
There are moments as acongregational leader where I'm
like speaking in front of mychurch, where the thought
crosses my mind that maybe Ishould be concerned more about
security or the threat of somerandom kind of violence.
But my faith commitment is tononviolence and my concern is

(37:48):
more that the space is open andwelcoming rather than a hardened
kind of tight security sort ofspace.
So that just comes with theterritory and I feel blessed to
be able to be in that spaceright now.

Speaker 4 (37:58):
Yeah, I would say it's shifted over the years.
I think early when I was moreandrogynous, presenting, I had
some kind of close calls.
As Andy mentioned, atlanta is alittle bit of a bubble but once
you get outside of theperimeter you are in Georgia and
the further outside of theperimeter you get, that's true.

(38:19):
So I had some times where I hadsome sort of dicey situations
that I got into or feeling likeis this person following me
around the store?
Or things where I thoughtsomeone might cause me harm and
I kind of extricated myself fromthe situation.
I will say, as I havetransitioned, I now have what we
would call passing privilege,especially in Atlanta.
But even like walking throughrural Georgia, like people just

(38:42):
don't and they just assume I'massistant or straight dude and
so in that way I don't feelunsafe.
I would echo Andy's kind ofcomments that when I am in
leadership where this is a transperson, then that can be
something that's potentiallyharmful.
I think what I do have fearsabout is like legislative harm

(39:02):
definitely is the thing andthat's something that I've kind
of.
I don't know where we will goin Georgia, but I have taken as
much steps as I can to ensure myown well-being.
And I saw in the UCC a churchsign and it said trust Jesus but
lock your car.
And I kind of tried to takethat approach with gender, which
is like I am sort of having alittle bit of faith but also I'm

(39:25):
taking steps to protect myselfand my family as much as I can.
And then the other thing I justwant to name is that A, we both
live in Atlanta, so that is onething.
But also as a trans masculineperson, statistically I am not
as at risk for violence as transwomen, but in particular trans
women of color experienceviolence at a far higher rate,
and it's just.

(39:46):
This is a very case study inintersectionality right of how
racism layers on top oftransphobia and sexism.
So I can tell you, even inAtlanta, that I know of black
trans women who have a lot morefear that they have to navigate
on a daily basis that neitherAndy nor I have to deal with.
Just naming that is not ourexperience is not speaking for

(40:08):
all trans people, absolutely.

Speaker 3 (40:10):
One more thing that I would add into this is that one
of my greatest points ofanxiety was going into a
denominational meeting.
We have an annual conferencethat has something like 3,000
people from all over NorthGeorgia, and the first year that
I recognized that I was transand I was like I'm going to show
up as myself I was frightened.
But I realized that if I wasgoing to continue to be a United

(40:30):
Methodist clergy person, Ineeded to be able to enter into
the annual conference meaningthe actual gathering and seat of
power and decisions and allthat kind of stuff as myself,
and if I was too afraid to dothat, I should probably just
quit ministry altogether, and soI just kept at it.

Speaker 1 (40:45):
I was actually wondering about that because you
would say how your bishop andher cabinet was very supportive
and how your congregation wasvery supportive.
But I was wondering, at sort ofmy level of fellow pastors, how
they thought.

Speaker 3 (40:56):
I have a cohort of colleagues that we're friends
and everybody kind of knows thedeal at this point or they're
figuring it out, I guess andsome of our beloved siblings are
departing from among us, andthat's also reality these days.
Of the folks that might be lessembracing, of trans folks are
finding a place in a newdenomination, and so we may not
see them at meetings.

Speaker 1 (41:16):
The same way, We'll make sure we touch upon that
before we finish up here.
We'll talk about that a littlebit.
We have another question.

Speaker 7 (41:21):
Go ahead and introduce yourself to my name is
Brylan I hope I see herpronouns after transitioning and
starting to lead yourcongregation as a woman, I was
wondering if you received anyfurther pushback, because I know
there are still a lot ofcongregations I guess would be
the right word that don'tbelieve that women in general
should be able to leave.
I didn't know if you received.
Oh, that's a great question.

Speaker 3 (41:40):
Absolutely so.
The United Methodist Churchthat I'm a part of has been
ordaining women since the 1950sI think it's 1956.
And that's a part of the reason.
I think I certainly had afemale bishop currently and had
a female bishop at the time, andmy congregation is very
welcoming of all the humans andthat's one of the ways that I
think we were able to kind ofmake this work right in our

(42:02):
denomination is that we ordainwomen and we ordain men and we
ordain women, and they thoughtthat they were ordaining a man
and actually they ordained awoman when I got ordained.
And there's no problem.
Do you see what I mean?
If they ordain women, then hereI am.
I heard that there was someconversation at a meeting that

(42:23):
one of our clergy is becoming awoman and the response is good
thing that we ordain women.
I feel very privileged in termsof the denomination itself and
my congregation, and at alllevels of leadership there are
men, women, non-binary people,male which is pretty cool and
also people of all differentraces, ethnicities, languages,
all that kind of stuff too.

Speaker 1 (42:42):
That was a great question.

Speaker 4 (42:43):
Thank you.
Have you, while we're waitingon the next person to come up,
have you experienced that likewhen you're outside of Methodist
spaces, down at the Capitol andyou're a woman wearing a clergy
collar?

Speaker 3 (42:51):
Not yet Give it a minute.
Yeah, right, exactly Did youwear a collar, andy?
I do sometimes At certainspaces right, like we're showing
a protest or things at thestate Capitol.
We just want to signal thatwe're clergy.
We do that and I think most ofthe time people are like who is
this tall, dazzlingly attractiveGermanic woman?
And that's sort of where itlands right.
So I don't Anyway.

Speaker 5 (43:11):
Hi, I'm Hannah.
I use she or her pronouns.
This might be something thatyou wanted to touch on, dr
McConkey, but I wanted to askwhat do your interactions look
like with Christians who are nottransaffirming?
If you have any, what are thoseconversations like?
How do you experience that?
Do you have any friends thatthink differently than you?
Just all about that.

Speaker 1 (43:30):
Before you answer that, we need to acknowledge
something.
Hannah, you are now our firstrepeat student on Church Potluck
.
Yeah, hannah did a podcast withus on Preacher's Kids.
Oh, did a great job with thattoo.

Speaker 4 (43:43):
We should get advice for our kids Exactly Do you want
to start or do you want me to?
Why don't you start?
Sure, I can say it runs thespectrum and this sort of came
up a little bit in ourconversation earlier that I am
sort of open.
I try to keep my for like abetter word my heart open to all
people.
It's sort of as a spiritualpractice.
But I am, I guess, tactful orstrategic, I guess in my

(44:06):
emotional energy, if that makessense.
Like I said, in advocacy circleswe talk about the undecided
middle.
Those are usually the peoplethat you can sway to vote the
way you want them to vote orsomething.
So I think, in terms of if I'mreally trying to change
someone's mind, those are peoplewho I think, okay, I might have
a shot at maybe shifting someperspective.

(44:27):
That doesn't mean I don't talkto people who I know they're not
going to agree with me.
They're just not.
But I'm not necessarily goingto invest a lot of emotional
energy.
If they seek me out, great.
But if I'm just kind of livingmy life in it and that's just
how they see it, then great.
I have, I think, when I came out, especially coming out here at
Barry and in WinShape, somepeople flat out dropped me and

(44:49):
put unfriended on the Facebook Iknow that's not something the
kids are into these days, butkind of just sort of
disconnected with me and thinkthat was hurtful.
And others who have stayed likesomewhat connected on social
media, like I said, I don't know, I always cross paths with them
, but I kind of keep that dooropen.
And I will also say there arealso people that I have drawn

(45:11):
boundaries with and I do want toaffirm that is okay, that there
are people who have beenharmful in their language and
I've kind of had to say wish youwell, wish you peace and
happiness, but you don't get tobe a part of my life in this
particular way anymore.
And then there's also just Imean, there's always the street
preachers at Pride or at theTransmarch, and for the most

(45:32):
part that doesn't even bother meanymore, as long as they don't
try to actually harm me, I'mlike all right, you just yell in
your megaphone, honey boo, andit just doesn't faze me at this
point.

Speaker 1 (45:43):
Does it bother you that your faith is being
represented in that way, though?

Speaker 4 (45:46):
That does bother me, yeah, and it's more.
It's like it doesn't hurt mebecause I just don't really care
what they think.
But I worry about the youngtrans folk and I try to usually
try to run.
Interference is what I try todo, especially if I am there in
a collar, because sometimesthey'll get in your face.
I mean, one guy got in my faceand was like you're not a priest
and I was like I am, so dealwith it.
But you know, there's usuallylike the we call them the pansy

(46:08):
patrol.
It's like these counterprotesters that show up with
these giant flowers to blocktheir signs, or some affirming
churches who come out with signs, and so we try to just sort of
provide a buffer because I'm inthe place where that doesn't
hurt me anymore.
But a young person coming infor their first pride, and this
is what they see, you can getdicey for them.

Speaker 3 (46:26):
My experience of coming out and being in the
world as myself is a process ofboth extreme anxiety initially
and then, as I had positiveexperiences, I was like I can do
this, I think I'm going to beall right.
Hey, no, no hate crimes today,that kind of thing.
I think the longer that Iexperienced this basically kind
of general positivity or atleast not overt negativity I was

(46:48):
like I think I can keep doingthis, and so I tried to be very
protective of myself and my ownspace and I just frankly try not
to go to places or haveinteractions with folks that are
going to be really hostile.
And I think the longer that I'mout here, the tougher that I get
and I think that's part ofmaturing and all that kind of
stuff and the tougher that I get, the more that I can handle,

(47:10):
like particularly out in thestreet with some of our siblings
that decide to make choicesthat I may not agree with or
even in just the mild stuff.
You know what I mean, forexample, like my co-parents
extended family are from SouthGeorgia and they are very sweet
and very loving but don't quiteunderstand what it is that I am
experiencing and trying to bothshow up with grace and patience

(47:35):
and also be clear this is who Iam and you're not going to talk
me out of it.
I suppose it helps change themas much as it helps me realize
that they actually are trying tounderstand and have a heart.

Speaker 1 (47:45):
Great Thank you yeah, another question.

Speaker 9 (47:47):
Okay, big moment for me.
Introvert also.
I will get read in splotchy.
It's in medical condition, I'mnot passing out, I'm good.

Speaker 1 (47:56):
It's only audio.

Speaker 9 (47:57):
The general, it happens when I talk to you in
class.
I'm just making a comment.

Speaker 1 (48:01):
Can I go ahead and record it video?
Oh God, no, please, I won't doit.

Speaker 9 (48:06):
I had a question about what Go ahead and
introduce yourself.
Oh sorry, I'm Lucy Hicks and Ihad a question about what kind
of masculinity and femininitymean to each of you, because
when I think of the Christianfaith and some of the papers
that I've written and stuff forDr McConkey's class is talking
about rigid gender roles and theperception, I guess, of

(48:29):
feminine and masculine traitsfrom a biblical standpoint.
What that's supposed to looklike and how that, if anything
like that, has, I don't know.
I don't know.

Speaker 4 (48:38):
Yeah that's a great question.
I can start I will say I thinkone of the things that was
really challenging for me abouttransitioning initially was I
was so very deeply feministidentified and I just was like I
don't want to be that guybecause so much of the
depictions of masculinity I wasseeing in culture were really
problematic and harmful and justkind of gross.

(49:00):
So what helped me was sort ofseeing some really positive
examples of masculinity,nurturing masculinity Mr Rogers,
jimmy Carter so that wassomething that helped sort of
helped me understand masculinityin a more, I think, healthy way
.
It's funny.
I remember a lot of the quoteunquote biblical masculinity and
femininity and I think a lot ofit is just something that has

(49:21):
sort of deconstructed along witheverything else and that I just
I don't think it's accurate.
I don't think what we kind ofget told is biblical.
Masculinity is actually verybiblical.

Speaker 1 (49:32):
I think it was something that focused on the
family made up I think when youlook at how Jesus behaved, very
often does not square with whatI see as kind of contemporary
understandings of masculinity.
Very often, absolutely yeah.

Speaker 3 (49:45):
If you're can I go ahead?
Yes, okay, cool, I'm rambling.
I am also in a place where I'mstarting from this kind of basic
understanding that, like menand women, people that claim a
masculine or feminine identitycan do whatever they want.
You can do whatever you wantbecause we're free people in a
free world.
You can do what you want.
I did a lot of theater as ayoung person, like in high

(50:09):
school and in college and Irealized that as I became an
adult and stepped into actuallya pastoral role, that it was a
role and that I was performingthe thing that I felt nobody was
really saying anything, but Iwas feeling that a role was
required and so I played thatrole and I played it really good

(50:30):
.
I was a really good actor and Iplayed the role and I feel like
I was playing with masculinityto some degree.
But it was very clear to melater on that I was still just
playing a role and it wasn't me,and that was a deep part of my
reflection is that I could be agood guy, I could be one of the

(50:52):
good ones, and I think that Iwas one of the good ones
protective and nurturing andgentle and also firm.
But then I realized on somelevel that wasn't me and so I
explored a little bit more andrealized that some of these
other aspects of myself that Ihad been hiding in order to play
that role were the real me, andthose are things that often get

(51:12):
labeled as being feminine.
Does that make sense?
Yes, I love flowers, which isweird.
It's not weird.
I love flowers and I lovebright colors, and I love
growing things.
I love listening to people, Ilove nurturing relationships,
and the more that I have becomemyself in transition, the more
that those things have emerged,which is a confirmation for me

(51:33):
if this is who I really am.

Speaker 1 (51:35):
Do you think?
Let me ask it this way.
It's going to sound critical, Idon't mean it critical why
couldn't you do those things asa biological man?
Sure.

Speaker 3 (51:44):
I tried, believe me, I really tried and I got to some
point where it just didn't feelon a deep level and we can talk
more about what that feelingmight be.
But it's the way I put it aboutthat.
I think about it sometimes.
Have you ever done computerprogramming?
There's like the operatingsystem that you have, but if you
start out with a thing from thebox, you have to install a BIOS

(52:08):
, which is the basic and nowoperating system.
And I feel like I had anoperating system that was quite
successful at being a guy, butmy BIOS was not male.
Once I kind of realized thatthere was some deeper,
fundamental level that was not aguy, I needed to change that
positioning and once I did that,then that helped solve a lot of

(52:31):
other anxieties in my world,like I could do the guy things
and tell you that I was a guyand I was experiencing a
fundamental anxiety in that.
And once I stopped trying toplay the part of guy, I feel
light and free and myself, whichis a confirmation for me.
Thank you.
Okay, hello, I'm Helen.

Speaker 1 (52:49):
Nice and close.

Speaker 8 (52:50):
Okay, so I guess this question is mostly for you,
sandy, I think.
Recently I've been going downthe linguistics rabbit hole, and
something that you said thatpiqued my interest was how you
didn't have the language tounderstand who you were in the
beginning of your journey, andthat also made me think of how,
for example in Spanish, the useof inclusive language faces a

(53:14):
lot of pushback, because,especially in a language like
Spanish, everything is gendered.
So I wanted you to elaborate onthe importance of the use of
that kind of language.

Speaker 3 (53:26):
Absolutely, and I bet Kimmel can add in this to this
too.
But I think that for me, evenknowing okay.
So one of the ways that Iunderstand being a human being
and being a spiritual humanbeing and certainly being a
trans human being, is that weare having an experience.
All of us have an experience ofbeing a person and showing up
and do life, and sometimes weencounter God.

(53:48):
And trying to put words to thatexperience is very difficult
because it's happening on somedeep level.
Sometimes it embodied level,sometimes it's a heart,
spiritual level, but a mysticallevel.
I've heard you say that severaltimes, kimmel, and we want to.
Maybe we don't want to, but ifwe want to try to tell somebody
else about that experience, wehave to figure out how to put

(54:08):
words to it.
And I have had mysticalspiritual experiences and have
really struggled to try to putwords to it.
And I hear from other humansthat have these kinds of
experiences that that's one ofthe strange things about them is
just very difficult to describethem in words.
And I think there's somethingtrue for me about being trans is
that the language itself ofexperience, this kind of state

(54:32):
that I'm in, this experience ofbeing embodied and being a human
being is not the sameexperience as other humans, but
it also happens to be the samein some ways as some people that
use the word trans, so I'mlearning oh, if that's the word
that you're using, let meexplore that a little bit.
And so it's naming anexperience, if that makes sense.

(54:53):
And so I think the more thatpeople feel free and safe to
name their experiences and toconnect with other people that
might possibly be having thesame experiences, the more we're
able to be more fully human.

Speaker 4 (55:05):
Yeah, I think the thing about language is
ultimately it's sort of justpointing at something and
whether that's language or Godor human experience, like
somewhere along the way ourwords are going to fall short
and I kind of love that they do.
It's kind of nice that somethings are just beyond language.
The other thing in terms of thepushback and I will say I'm not

(55:27):
at all fluent in Spanish, Itook it and I took it and I
passed it.
But I know we do get pushedback around, like they then
pronounce it English and it's alittle bit grammatically correct
, which I can tell you why it isgrammatically correct and
whatnot.
You don't realize it and thatperson catches you off in
traffic and you're like who doesthis person think they are?
Because you don't know who theyare.
I've had English professors talkabout why the singular there is

(55:47):
okay, but I think at the end ofthe day I'm like what to me is
more important?
Is it the laws of grammar orthe laws of love?
And is it more important thatsomeone is seen or that you've
got an A on your English paper?
So that's just something Ithink about with pushback around
language in general.

Speaker 3 (56:04):
And I do think language is still evolving.
I mean, so it's 2023 and Ithink even the last five years
language has evolved and it'sgoing to keep evolving as people
keep sharing their experienceand finding the links between
shared experiences.

Speaker 1 (56:19):
Definitely, I think I've got one final question.
First of all, thank you to mystudents for wonderful questions
, good job.
I just wanted to close withthis because we really haven't
talked about the institutionalissue that, andy, your
denomination of mine is facingUnited Methodist Church, with
just a very large proportion,especially down here in the

(56:39):
South, a very large proportionof our churches splitting off,
schisming and many just becomingindependent, but a very large
portion developing their owndenomination.
And I'm wondering.
It seems that they will oftensay that it's based on other,
deeper things, about biblicalinterpretation, but it clearly
is grounded on what's going onwith our understanding of human

(57:00):
sexuality.
The Bible has about six orseven passages that really focus
on sexuality and same-sexrelationships being wrong,
sinful abomination, differentterminology for it.
But it seems that a whole lotof emphasis and a whole lot of
exertion is being put based onthose six passages.

(57:22):
And why do you think sexualityis so divisive and so polarizing
in the American church today?

Speaker 4 (57:29):
I have some thoughts you want to speak to.

Speaker 3 (57:31):
Methodist, just as a Methodist.

Speaker 4 (57:34):
No, you better start, you better start, I'll give the
broader church.
I think it comes into the lot.
I think it can be a lot ofthings.
I think sometimes there arepeople who maybe even want to be
affirming but they feel likethis house of cards will fall
apart if they don't interpretthe Bible in this very literal
way that they were told to.
So I think sometimes it can bethat fear.
But I honestly think a lot of itin some denominations is really

(57:57):
about power and aboutmaintaining power.
And I think the way thatChristianity has I'm trying not
to get too political here, buthas kind of shifted in American
Christianity, especially inWestern Christianity, has kind
of become very rigid and sort ofabout control, I think has a
lot to do with power and theteachings of Jesus which so

(58:20):
disrupt the status quo, and tosee Christianity be used to sort
of prop up the rich and thewell to do and those in power, I
think is really kind of good.
And this problem and all of theproblems and I'll just stop
before I get too political- Iwill also try to be diplomatic
if possible.

Speaker 3 (58:37):
I think that certainly, sexuality is a
presenting issue versus the rootissue.
It's the thing that we arecurrently choosing to fight
about as the named issue versuswhatever else is also underlying
the real conflict.

Speaker 1 (58:52):
It's the tip of the iceberg, but there's an entire
iceberg underneath that we haveFor a family system.

Speaker 3 (58:57):
There's the kid that acts out and it's clearly that
kid's fault why we're all nothappy as a family.
But it's maybe there's otherissues in the structure rather
than simply just that one kid.
That's the presenting issue.
So there's that kind of dynamic.
This is the thing that we'rechoosing to fight about.
I do think that Methodismhistorically has reflected
particularly I mean, certainlyMethodism is a worldwide

(59:20):
denomination.
Methodism is a worldwidedenomination, but we are
certainly like a marrow centricright.
We are heavily weighted both interms of money and in terms of
population, to some extent untilrecently in the United States,
and so we reflect the politicsof America pretty closely.
And I think that it was in 1844that the Methodist Episcopal

(59:43):
Church split into MethodistEpiscopal Church north or the
Methodist Episcopal Church andthe Methodist Episcopal Church
south, so about 16 years beforethe US Civil War.
So there was deep divisionwithin the Methodist Church in
that timeframe and then, becauseof that deep division over the
politics of the day, therebecame a division within the

(01:00:05):
denomination.
I think we're just in that sameplace now that there's if it
wasn't this particular issue,we're going to fight about
something else.
And it's reflective, in Americaat least of this kind of
broader polarization of politicsand public life and the failure
to be able to haveconversations and diplomatic and
humane ways in public spaces,et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

(01:00:26):
I think that we as a church arereflecting the world in a way
that happens to us.
Sometimes it's something thatMethodists have done and
probably will do again, but weare in the middle of it right
now.

Speaker 1 (01:00:40):
Great, very well said .
That's playing rapid fire.
Anything else that we haven'tsaid, that needs to be said.

Speaker 3 (01:00:52):
I don't know.
What else do I have to say?
I feel like I've said all theword.
You have other things deepwisdom.

Speaker 4 (01:00:57):
Go forth and love people, that's right.

Speaker 3 (01:01:00):
Humanize all the humans.
That's our motto atNeighborhood.
Try to make sure that everybodygets to be human yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:01:07):
Well, I want to thank you both so much.
I know we've got you doing awhole bunch of stuff today, and
adding the podcast ontoeverything is just.
I'm very grateful for yourvulnerability, very grateful for
your courage to come out andshare these stories.
I want to thank our audiencefor sitting around the table
with us today.
Also, I hope that we haveprovided you with some food for
thought and something to chew onNow.

(01:01:29):
Usually we have littleleftovers afterward and we just
kind of debrief and continuetalking.
We might do that a little bit,but probably it would be shorter
this time because we've gotsome food here for our students
and for our guests.
And so, kimball, andy, thankyou so much.
We appreciate your support forlistening.
As a part of that support,please consider subscribing,

(01:01:51):
rating and reviewing.
This is where I sound the mostlike a podcaster.
I feel most alive as apodcaster.
You're going to say that Untilwe gather around the table next
time, this has been Church Pot,look.
Thank you all so much.
And one last time, thank you tomy students too.
All right, we're done.

(01:02:11):
We're still recording, butwe're done.
Did y'all get to ask everythingthat you wanted to ask?
Just ask.
You have a question.
Come on up.
Oh, you're scared Stillrecording.
Do I need to pause it?
Go ahead and ask If thequestion can get picked up just
how did your families respond?

Speaker 3 (01:02:24):
My family has been super supportive and affirming
my immediate family are mybiggest advocates and
cheerleaders.
As a side note, the person thatI was married to.
We're not married anymore, butwe're still like besties and
still see each other all thetime and actually are still
coworkers, like we're co-pastorsof the church that we work

(01:02:44):
together at.
It's like we ended our romanticrelationship but still are the
deepest friends that arepossible.
My extended family is also verysupportive, as best as they
know how they're working on it.
My mama's working on it.
I've been doing this liketransitioning for four years and
like last month, my mom waslike, can I say that I have a
daughter?
I was like, actually, you can,she's processing that, which is

(01:03:06):
entertaining to me a little bit.
I was like, yeah, been out herefor a while, mama, but she's
getting there.
Yeah, family's prettysupportive.

Speaker 4 (01:03:12):
Mine have come a long way.
I think growing up I would notnecessarily say that they were
there yet.
My dad, I think, probably wouldhave been, but he's just very.
I just wasn't very outspokenabout things.
I think my mom definitely wasin the sexuality of the sin.
But I think by the time I cameout to her the first time at the
time gay now I would say queer,but at the time that was the

(01:03:34):
language I used she wasgenerally on, okay with things.
She was definitely likefiguring it out, but was
generally okay with things.
And then by the time I came outthe second time they had come a
lot further and actually evenwhen.
As far as I say I'm sorry thatyou've been felt nervous about
this because I just didn'tunderstand when you were younger

(01:03:54):
, things are great.
I think my sister's a bit olderthan me.
She's a doctor.
She's a doctor.
She just sees things veryscientifically.
My brother's always been verysupportive.
I think he probably is a littlemore with it, like his church
marches and the pride paradekind of thing, and that's what
happened with it.
I don't really again.

(01:04:16):
All of my grandparents aresensed deceased, so I don't have
relationships with them anymore, obviously, and I don't really
have much relationship with myextended family.
My parents mess up sometimes,especially my dad.
The brain plasticity that thepronouns don't always quite
catch my partner's family,mostly supportive.

(01:04:36):
A certain sibling is not.
Those are where some of theboundaries come in, but
otherwise actually I think theirextended family all came to our
wedding and whatever.
They don't always understand it, but I'm sure in whatever ways
they can.

Speaker 1 (01:04:51):
Thank you all so much .
Yeah, that was cute.
Thank you Good Thank you.