What We Did This Summer

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In this episode, we’re joined by Michael Papazian, Professor of Philosophy, and Michael Bailey, Associate Professor of Political Science, for a lively and personal discussion of their summer experiences and reflections.

Michael Bailey opens up about the emotional depth of his daughter’s wedding, sharing moments of joy, community, and love that defined the day, from the profound presence of family and friends to spontaneous dancing to John Denver. It’s a heartfelt reflection on a significant family milestone.

Michael Papazian takes us on a literary journey, reflecting on his summer reading, particularly the works of Nobel Prize-winning author Isaac Bashevis Singer. He explores how Singer’s vivid portrayals of Jewish life and resilience offer not only intellectual insight but also deep spiritual and emotional enrichment.

Host Dale McConkey rounds out the conversation by reflecting on two key themes in his own life: his ongoing obsession with golf and his plans for a phased retirement. As Dale contemplates transitioning from academia, he shares his excitement about dedicating more time to Church Potluck by expanding into other media. Before that, he discusses how golf has enhanced his life despite raising some moral questions.

From wedding celebrations and literary insights to life transitions and personal passions, this episode serves up a hearty feast of engaging conversation and thoughtful reflection, true to the spirit of Church Potluck.

The views expressed on Church Potluck are solely those of the participants and do not represent any organization.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
So Michael's wearing this is Michael Papazian is
wearing a beautiful blue shirtand looks dapper and that sort
of Dale complimented on it andthat is sort of a cascade.

Speaker 2 (00:12):
You were just eager to talk, because we haven't even
done this yet, because, yeah,you were just ready to get into
it.
Well, I was just so I don'tknow, you were just so struck by
Michael Papazian's outfit.
It's been a long summer, it'snice to get into it you were
just so struck by MichaelPapazian's outfit.
It's been a long summer, peoplewear nice clothes today and of
course, we're talking anddiscussing one another's fashion
.
This is what we do.

(00:32):
We usually text each other inthe morning to see what we're
wearing.

Speaker 1 (00:37):
Although it is actually true that Dale and I
have worn the same shirt on thesame day before, several years
ago, and we did sort of jokeabout do we need to start?

Speaker 3 (00:48):
texting each other to find out he's not with me.
In my text.
Do you think it's texting notto wear the same thing or
texting to make sure we need toflip a?

Speaker 2 (00:54):
coin and say who's going to shop at Walmart and
who's going to shop at Target.
That's what we needed to do.
Your Target.

Speaker 3 (00:59):
That's too far away, yeah, too far away.

Speaker 1 (01:01):
Yeah, well, there you go.

Speaker 2 (01:02):
That's it.
Well, welcome everyone toChurch Potluck, where we are
serving up a smorgasbord ofChristian curiosity.
I'm your host, dale McConkie,sociology professor and United
Methodist pastor, and you knowthere are two keys to a good
Church Potluck plenty of varietyand engaging conversation.

(01:23):
And that is exactly what we tryto do here on Church Potluck
Sit down with friends and shareour ideas on a variety of topics
from a variety of academicdisciplines and a variety of
Christian traditions.
Well, welcome back everybody.
I guess we should just giveourselves a round of applause
for being back.
Do it.
There we are.

(01:43):
We made it Welcome and welcometo all of you out there and
thank you for welcoming us backinto your podcast stream.
We have been away for quite awhile several months and we'll
probably talk about that alittle bit down the road here,
but we are back and eager to digin on Church Potluck and we
have some very familiar gueststo get us started.
Start off with some familiarterritory with some familiar

(02:06):
folks.
Our first guest Dr MichaelPapazian.

Speaker 3 (02:11):
Hi, it's good to be back.

Speaker 2 (02:12):
They're just as eager as ever to have you, sounds
like it, did you not hear?

Speaker 3 (02:16):
Yeah, listen, I heard .

Speaker 2 (02:17):
Again, over and over.
Yeah, anyway.
So how are you doing?
I'm pretty good, yeah, I'mpretty good, yeah, I'm feeling
good.
So are you still everything youwere before?
What I mean in terms ofintroductions?
Are you still everything that?

Speaker 3 (02:28):
you used to be.
Nothing has changed drastically?
I don't think.

Speaker 1 (02:32):
No, go ahead so you don't have to introduce.

Speaker 3 (02:34):
Do I have to introduce myself?

Speaker 1 (02:35):
It's been so long.
I think people need to know.

Speaker 3 (02:37):
It sounds like maybe something has changed, house
changed, but I mean I haveanother role at the college yeah
, just for a year yeah we'll goahead and give us the basics and
then give us I am I I teachphilosophy in the religion and
philosophy department here atberry college and I'm also chair
of faculty assembly, and so Ihave some respect and I think

(02:58):
both of you have had that rolein the past, is that not?
We both have, so I'm followingin your footsteps.
Is this your first time doingit?
This is the first time I'vebeen chair.
I've been secretary Last year ofcourse I was vice chair, but
this is the first time as chair.

Speaker 1 (03:15):
Right, and you've been chair of the department a
long time.
I hope the last time too.

Speaker 3 (03:17):
Actually You're doing great, Thank you.

Speaker 2 (03:18):
So my big thing my year when I was faculty assembly
chair is we were bringing in anew provost and the provost
wanted to create the chairsystem for the departments.
And that was my big thingworking us through the chair
system with the provost.

Speaker 1 (03:31):
What was your big thing, Michael?
I closed down the entirecollege through COVID.

Speaker 3 (03:34):
That was good work on your part.

Speaker 2 (03:36):
I tell you what, though that was a whole lot of
you needed to be our voiceduring that time to help figure
things out.

Speaker 1 (03:42):
So that was very important.
Voice via Zoom yeah, Still,it's a voice.

Speaker 2 (03:45):
That's right.
That's all.
It was a voice, right?
I guess Zoom there's video too.

Speaker 1 (03:49):
I did feel somewhat responsible for the college
shutting down, but that mightjust be megalomania.

Speaker 2 (03:55):
And you are kind of doing this during a very
critical year, because not onlyare you chair of the faculty
assembly, what's your otherthing?

Speaker 3 (04:00):
you're, I'm also on the search committee for a new
president, since our belovedpresident of almost 20 years,
stephen Briggs, will be retiringafter this academic year.

Speaker 2 (04:13):
And so what's the big scoop that you have come to
announce on Church Potluck?
There's no scoop.

Speaker 1 (04:17):
Oh, there's so many scoops I cannot say a word.

Speaker 2 (04:23):
That was donkey brain for disappointment.
I don't have a boo button onhere yet.

Speaker 3 (04:27):
But yeah, no, these searches nowadays are
confidential.

Speaker 1 (04:34):
You had to sign an NDA.

Speaker 2 (04:36):
Yes, wow, at the risk of what?
What is the consequence?
I mean, I could be sued.

Speaker 3 (04:42):
You could be sued too .
I don't know.
Actually, if this goes out on apodcast.

Speaker 2 (04:47):
Okay, they're moving right along, then it could.
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (04:51):
Bad things could happen.

Speaker 2 (04:52):
Our other guests.
You know them Michael theLesser, michael the Lesser,
michael Bailey.
Thank you, remind the folks whoyou are, okay.

Speaker 1 (05:04):
I'm a professor here or associate professor, I guess,
as I should say Politicalscience.
I teach American politics oneventful stuff, no big deal yeah
right and one course in modernpolitical philosophy which seems
like a refuge from some of theother stuff.
Yeah, so do you know why I'mdoing this podcast today,
Michael?
Because Michael Papazian looksso beautiful.

(05:24):
He's so dapper.
Is it an honor?

Speaker 3 (05:26):
In that case, you should be streaming this on
video so that the people couldsee One day, one day.

Speaker 2 (05:31):
One day?
No, maybe not.

Speaker 1 (05:32):
We need a close ear because he would bring the
Hawaiian vibe.
Yes, absolutely All right Nexttime.

Speaker 2 (05:37):
But I am doing this podcast because, even though
you've apologized, I emailed youover the summer and I texted
you over the summer and you'veyou know didn't respond.
I said if I put a microphone infront of Michael Bailey, I'll
get a chance to talk to him.

Speaker 1 (05:53):
I would love to be able to defend myself, but
everyone out there knows thatthis is they can believe you a
hundred percent.

Speaker 2 (06:01):
I know it's been a big, busy summer for you, so
that was all tongue in cheek,but it is good to have you in
front of a microphone.
Thank you, great.
It's been a while since we havechatted, just as I said, so I
thought we'd use this episodejust to catch up, kind of a.
Did you ever have to do thefifth grade report about what I
did over the summer?
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (06:19):
Multiple years.
No, I'm sorry.

Speaker 1 (06:22):
Fifth grade no, I was thinking that is the biggest
shock of this entire podcast.
That was like a joke.
I've been in the fifth gradethree times.
A little subtle humor, I'm sureI did.
Yeah, fifth grade maybe.

Speaker 3 (06:31):
I don't know.
I don't remember that.
Yeah, I don't remember what Isaid or what I did.
It was very pedestrian thatsummer.

Speaker 1 (06:36):
I did this and I went here and there.

Speaker 2 (06:39):
Okay, this won't really be too game show me, but
let's go ahead and pretend thisis going to be like a kind of a
game show I've grown to likethese episodes.
Oh, I've had people come up tome and say there was no game
show in the last episode, so nowI kind of feel obligated to
create some kind of a game show.

Speaker 3 (06:58):
Yeah, you have to do it.

Speaker 2 (06:59):
I've already banged the table twice, so I'm going to
have to control my game.

Speaker 3 (07:02):
You're just too excited, Dale.
That's the problem.

Speaker 2 (07:04):
That is true, it is fun to be back.
It is fun to be back, all right.
So here's the game show.
We're going to take turns, andwhoever's turn it is is going to
give us two topics of somethingthat happened over the summer,
and the other two folks get todecide what the other person has
to talk about.
All right, so?

(07:30):
All right, so here we go.
We will spin the wheel.
First Bailey.
It turned on Michael Bailey, soGive us at least two.
If you've got more than two,you can give us one Paisley, and
I will choose which one we wantyou to talk about.

Speaker 1 (07:38):
Okay, I've got a travel topic, I've got a wedding
topic and I've got a walkingtopic.

Speaker 2 (07:45):
Okay, I kind of hope you choose I know which one.
Oh, you're going to tell uswhat you want us to choose.

Speaker 1 (07:51):
No, that's not part of the game.

Speaker 2 (07:53):
I want the wedding.
Yeah, I want the wedding too.
Okay, is that what you wantedus to ask you about?

Speaker 1 (07:58):
We'll get to some of these others probably In case my
daughter's listening, I saystrong yes, anyways.

Speaker 2 (08:05):
Tell us about your wedding.
Oh, I thought we're going to goaround, and no, you're first
and then we'll do ours later.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (08:11):
Okay, this past Sunday my middle daughter, emma
Rose, married Zachary Musser.
Now she is Emma Rose Musser.
It was in Hilton Head and itwas just a lovely, lovely
weekend and I was involved withnone of the planning.
I mean I was, I presume, bydesign, by everyone's mutual

(08:36):
decision, that I would be on aneed-to-know basis, and that
basis rarely came.
So it is actually true that onthe drive down we go past
Atlanta to Macon, you take ahard left and then you just head
to Hilton Head and on the roadthere I asked my wife so when is
the wedding?
So I knew the date and I knewI'd be told when to show up, but

(09:01):
that's sort of the extent ofwhat I knew.
I had to redo my syllabi daybefore I distributed them
because I did not know that Iwas coming back on the following
Tuesday.
I just assumed we were comingback on the Monday.
So that is how much out of theloop I was.
But because of that I was calmand relaxed and enjoyed the

(09:27):
festivities.

Speaker 2 (09:28):
Very cool and I've had trips like that where my
children knew New York Citybetter than I did, so I just got
to sit back and just followtheir lead and it was delightful
, so sublime.
So the reason I wanted to askyou about this is because the
photos you put on Facebook wetalk about Dapper right now you
and your wife look lovely andjust the photo, especially the

(09:49):
photo of you and Emma Rosedancing oh, that's up there.
I thought you put it up there.

Speaker 1 (09:55):
Oh, I put yeah.

Speaker 2 (09:56):
I's up there.
I thought you put it up there.

Speaker 1 (09:57):
Oh, I put.
Yeah, I thought so too.
I put up a photo of Zachary andEmma Rose and then of me
walking Emma Rose down the aisle.
Both of those were, you know,the official photographers.
I know that there are otherphotos out there, but I just
didn't know who's put up what?

Speaker 2 (10:12):
Okay, but anyway.
And then Julianne sent me a fewextra too of of you and
Emeril's dancing that were justincredibly touching and she
mentioned I hope I'm notbreaking confidence in a public
sense just how happy you wereand just how it was.
She just said she couldn'tthink of a time that you were
even happier.

Speaker 1 (10:33):
I think the way she put it it was genuinely joyful
and they knew enough not to tellme too many details about the
dance.
They actually told me the songthe day before because they were
fearful that I would blubber ifI knew it.
It's kind of a family favoriteAnnie song by John Denver.
And you know, obviously therewas no rehearsal, it just went
out there and it was just really, you fill up my senses.

(10:55):
Yeah, okay, yeah, it's just alovely time with her, and then I
kind of went, I cut loose onthe dance floor afterwards when
it went to some more modernstuff which I now, that's what I
want to see video on that Ithere probably is if I find any,
I'll put it on the churchpotluck website.

Speaker 2 (11:11):
So was there anything particularly?
Was it a particularly christianfocused ceremony?
Was there anything that itabout the celebration that had a
particularly Christian-focusedceremony?
Was there anything about thecelebration that had a
particularly spiritual componentfor you?

Speaker 1 (11:24):
A fair bit actually, but I don't have to go into
great length.
You know, my mother passed awayin December and my father
passed away a few years ago andI thought of them a lot, the
fact that you know that theyweren't there.
But I was also genuinelygrateful and touched that my

(11:45):
in-laws, my mother andfather-in-law, were able to make
it and were in good health andparticipated in the wedding.
And I'm going to go back to apiece of literature.
So when I was a kid I don'tknow middle school I read the
Jungle by Upton Sinclair.
It's about the meat factoriesin Chicago at the turn of the
last century and I think it's inhere.

(12:06):
But it's based in part aboutthese immigrant families and
they're dirt poor and they'reworking in the factories for
nothing.
But they put on a wedding andthis is like in seventh or
eighth grade.
This really just struck me.
So they put on this weddingthat they could not afford in
order to have a celebration,because sometimes in life not

(12:29):
for me, thankfully, but for manythere's a few rare moments of
genuine celebration and it isworth having family and friends
there and there's no equivalentto like the expenses here.
But the point is a wedding is abig deal, with lots of moving
parts right, and you invitepeople, and this happened to be

(12:50):
in Hilton Head, and so anyonewho made the trip down there
really made an extra effort.
I feel like I'm a pretty lovingperson, but I feel like I've
always struggled, maybe feelingworthy of being loved, feeling
God's love or other people'slove.
It's hard for me to accept that, but at that moment and this is

(13:13):
related to the dancing it wasjust so obvious that this place
was filled with loving peoplewho wanted to be part of this
ceremony, who loved Zachary andEmma, who wanted to be there to
affirm this wedding and to bethere with us, and it was just.
I felt like God's love wasthere, and it turns out, when

(13:36):
God's love is there, I dance.

Speaker 2 (13:37):
I didn't know that before.
Yeah, I've had the pleasure ofofficiating many weddings as
chaplain and now as pastor, andthere are just certain
ceremonies where you can seejust the whole.
Both families are excited aboutthe wedding and you can tell
that the couple is starting onjust a rock-solid foundation and

(14:00):
there's just a it is.
There's just a sense of joythat radiates throughout
everything that happens, and sothat's cool that you were able
to experience that at your owndaughter's wedding.

Speaker 1 (14:12):
You're right.
I mean it does start with thecouple, right?
And if you have concerns then,or if they have stress, it's
more difficult to celebrate.

Speaker 2 (14:17):
It does start with the couple, right, and if you
have concerns then, or if theyhave stress, it's more difficult
to celebrate, it's much moredifficult.

Speaker 1 (14:20):
But these two people adore each other and we are just
thrilled to have Zachary as anew son in the family.

Speaker 2 (14:30):
To have a son.

Speaker 1 (14:32):
That's right, that's right I don't have Y chromosomes
, it turns out, but also justhis family is just a really
beautiful family and I'm veryproud to be part of it in a
sense, even just by extension.

Speaker 2 (14:43):
Very cool.

Speaker 1 (14:44):
Thank you very much for sharing that I don't know
how we it's really nice.

Speaker 2 (14:47):
I'm not sure if we'd be able to come in close.
I know I won't be able to, solet's spin the wheel and see
which one of us is going to talknext here.
Sir Michael, this time Papazian.
All right, I'm surprised it wasme so yeah, I guess I should do

(15:11):
three things.

Speaker 3 (15:11):
None of these are going to be anywhere near as
beautiful as mine.

Speaker 1 (15:14):
You still should have chosen walking, but that's okay
.

Speaker 3 (15:18):
We'll make room for that.
I mean, one of them issomething that all of us
experience that is being thrownout of our offices, and that was
both traumatic but also, Ithink, spiritually valuable too.
So that's one thing.
Second is I decided to do whatI call therapeutic reading, like
reading something that hasnothing to do I mean not,

(15:41):
obviously with any of myresearch or my teaching Just
pick up a book and read it forfun.
I found that verypsychologically and really
helpful for me Do you have agenre that you're?

Speaker 2 (15:52):
We can talk about that.
We've got to decide what thetopic is first.

Speaker 3 (15:56):
I can elaborate, that's right, but fiction was my
main reading interest over thesummer, and then what I was
going to come up with a third.
Oh yeah, this is notsignificant really, but I did
spend a lot of time working on anew language.

Speaker 2 (16:13):
Developing a new.
No, I'm not Tolkien.
Okay, Not yet right.

Speaker 3 (16:16):
But learning a new language.

Speaker 2 (16:18):
All right.
What do you think?

Speaker 1 (16:23):
I want to hear what he's reading.
Okay, oh, okay Reading.
You want reading too?

Speaker 3 (16:26):
Dave Reading Okay yes , and it was just as I said.
It's just something I justrandomly, I just want to read
about.
I read a couple of books by.
I don't know if you all haveread any of the works of Isaac
Bashevis Singer, who was thegreat Yiddish author.
He won the Nobel Prize inliterature, I don't know when,
1970s, I think.
Who knows?

Speaker 2 (16:44):
See, this is my level of sophistication.
As long as he's Yiddish andhe's writing with Yiddish terms,
then it's got to be great.

Speaker 3 (16:50):
Oh, it is great.

Speaker 2 (16:51):
I mean, I can't read Yiddish, but the Yiddish terms
that have made his way intoEnglish are amazing.

Speaker 3 (16:59):
And again, it's like you know I'm interested in
Eastern European culture andJudaism, but it was, you know,
nothing I do research in.
I just wanted for fun, just toread, and I recommend him highly
.
I actually read two books ofhis and the first one I read is
really a memoir.
It's called In my Father'sCourt and the book is about

(17:20):
living in his father's house.
His father was a rabbi, but hewas kind of like a mid-level
rabbi, like not a distinguishedone.
He refers to the really toprabbis as wonder rabbis, because
these are people who canperform miracles, like, let's
say, you know, a couple arehaving trouble having a baby and
they go to the wonder rabbi.

Speaker 2 (17:38):
So this is not fiction.

Speaker 3 (17:40):
Oh, this is about his real life.
Yeah, I'll get to the fictionlater.
So, yes, this was a memoir andthen I did read a fiction book.
But anyway, he talks about hisfather literally had a court
like a, you know, like a legalcourt adjudicating, you know
Jewish law, and many of thechapters are like little
vignettes about things thathappen and that someone comes to

(18:02):
ask a question of the rabbi,his father, and to give an
answer.
So I'll give you like one that-.

Speaker 2 (18:08):
Whose baby is it?
Yeah, what's that?
Who belongs to the baby?

Speaker 3 (18:12):
Something like that.
It could be like that.
Yeah, I mean mean one examplethat kind of sounds like really
lurid and kinky is, but it's not.
It's.
A recently widowed husbandcomes to the rabbi and asks him
rabbi, is it okay if I sleepwith my wife's corpse?

(18:33):
And that sounds really.
Yeah, I know it sounds like yo,but it turns out it was actually
loving, because they're livingin a poor the ghetto of Warsaw
and he wasn't able to bury hiswife until the next day.
If he left her body on thefloor the rats would get to it,

(18:54):
and yet if he touched the bodyhe would become corrupt, you
know he would be unclean.
So he asked the rabbi wouldJewish law allow me to touch my
wife's corpse, because I'm doingit so that she can be, you know
, away from the rats and all theother vermin in the apartment
and all that?
And the rabbi says, yes, inthis case this is the loving

(19:14):
thing to do.
I mean, that just gives you oneexample of all the sort of
different kind of things thatcome up.
I know, yeah, that sounds likereally yeah.

Speaker 1 (19:22):
That took like four twists and turns, I know, but
that's why this is such a greatbook.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (19:27):
I mean, and since it's a memoir, I assume that
this actually happened.
This is true, that thishappened, that you know things
like that happened Also.

Speaker 1 (19:34):
it immediately gives you a sense of a different world
, a different way of living.

Speaker 3 (19:39):
desperation, right, desperation in cramped quarters
in a ghetto, in a society youknow riven with anti-Semitism,
and you can just see how,nevertheless you know, the
people lived and attempted to,you know, live good lives as
Jews.
So it was a very moving book.
And it's not all about legalcases.

(20:00):
He talks a lot about his family, his siblings, apparently, his
brother was also a writer, notas well known as Isaac, but he
was Not a wonder writer, not awonder writer.

Speaker 2 (20:11):
right Isaac the Cyber Singer was a wonder writer.

Speaker 3 (20:14):
So I read that and the next book I said I want to
read more.
I want to read a fiction workby him.
So the next book I read, it's ashort novel.
It's called the Satan of Gorée,and Gorée is a small town in
Poland, and it too, althoughit's fiction, it's based on an
actual historical event thatI've always been fascinated by,

(20:40):
an actual historical event thatI've always been fascinated by.
In the 17th century, there wasa man, a Jewish man, living in
Turkey, named Sabatai Zvi.
I don't know if you're familiarwith him, but he actually
claimed to be the Messiah and hehad a following right, they
actually a big following.
He was, apparently was a verycharismatic man and many Jews
believe that.
Yes, he is, you know, theredeemer, the anointed one of

(21:02):
Israel, and his following grewuntil he was called in by the
sultan you know the head of theOttoman Empire of Turkey and he
said you got to stop this.
If you don't, you know, if youdon't convert to Islam right now
, we're going to kill you.

Speaker 1 (21:18):
And so he did.

Speaker 3 (21:19):
He converted to Islam , oh wow, and his following
broke off.
I mean, he didn't have as muchof a following after that
because most people thought, oh,he's just a fraud, he's not
really the Messiah.
But in any event, singer writesthis novel about a small town
Jewish settlement in Polandcalled Gorée, where a rabbi
arrives who's preaching that theSabbath is the true Messiah.

(21:42):
Now this is before or after heconverted to Islam.
This would actually be after,because he still had a following
.
Okay, all right.
Right, and there's still peoplewho and in fact, apparently
there might still be some peoplenowadays who are their crypto
Jews they're called that,actually just as there are many

(22:03):
people who are in Spain who areCatholics outwardly but
nevertheless maintain Jewishpractices.
After the expulsion of the Jewsin 1492 from Spain, the same
thing kind of happenedapparently in Turkey too, that
there were people who outwardlylived as Muslims or presented
themselves as Muslims butremained Jewish privately, and

(22:26):
so some of his followers saidthat that's, you know, that's
what he did, that's whatSabbatai Zvi did, and we'll
follow that as well.
But anyway, but it's interestingbecause what happens is and in
reading this I couldn't help butconnect it to modern,
contemporary politics whathappens is when you have these
people preaching this Messiah,some of the Jews in this village

(22:50):
, of course, accepted it andthought, yeah, he is our king,
he is our savior, and otherswere like, no, I mean, you're
just falling for a con man hereat all, and that causes this
kind of polarization in theJewish community, not just there
in this town, but all over theJewish world and I couldn't help
but think that you know maybe alot of our modern views and

(23:13):
looking for, you know, a king orsomeone like that, an
authoritarian figure that hassort of split us two politically
.
This novel, I think, waswritten in the 1970s.

Speaker 2 (23:26):
It was kind of very prophetic and you still see the
relevance.
I still see the relevance of ittoday.

Speaker 1 (23:30):
We're all looking for that kind of not all of us
maybe but many of us are lookingfor that kind of savior figure,
Independently of politics.
I think back to David Koreshand Waco.

Speaker 3 (23:40):
Oh yeah, there too.

Speaker 1 (23:41):
And after everyone was killed right in those flames
, he still has followers and wejust discussed this last night
at church, at our Bible studytoo.

Speaker 2 (23:50):
Jesus Day it wasn't like obvious hope.
Here's the Messiah, right?
People took sides and veryhostile.
So when someone's making a boldclaim like I'm the Messiah,
it's bound to cause division.
I guess if I proclaimed that Iwas the Messiah, it would not
cause any division becauseeverybody would be on one side.

(24:11):
Nobody would believe it.

Speaker 1 (24:12):
That's right, no, no no, I think that's the right
disposition to have.
When you hear that, I feel likeif someone claims that God
spoke to them I mean, if youhave the special powers like if
you can raise a rod and thenwater flows out of a rock or
someone drops a dead youprobably should believe them.

(24:33):
But short of something visibleand obvious, I think skepticism
is not the worst attitude tohave.

Speaker 2 (24:41):
I would agree with that.
So, Michael, were there anylike personal spiritual insights
that you took away from that?
Or was it just the wonder ofthe story that you read?

Speaker 3 (24:53):
I mean, I think I learned a lot just by reading
this work.
Is it sort of opened up awindow into a different world?
But I also saw it as somethingthat I look for.
You can find wisdom andspiritual truth in so many
different traditions.
It's like a big church potluckhuh, it's exactly like that.
You just pick up a book and itcould be about Jews in Poland,

(25:17):
it could be I don't know.
It could be whatever aboutpeople in Korea or you know
wherever, and it has somesignificance.
I think you begin to see acommon humanity, that the same
kind of.
You know both aspirations andlongings that people have, as
well as all the foibles and youknow shortcomings.

(25:38):
There's a universality to it,you know.
So that's why, when I read thisbook about this incident in
this small town in Poland, itwas like, oh, those kinds of
things you see that everywhere.
You know it's not justparticular.
So you get this sort of senseof belonging to a greater
humanity.
I think that's one of thethings I really I really got out
of reading him and his worksGreat Well thank you very much,

(26:01):
appreciate that.

Speaker 2 (26:02):
That was fabulous.
Let's spin the wheel one moretime.
I mean, who's it going to landon?
I don't know.
Oh, it did Wait On Dale.
Yeah, there it is.
Yes, it's on me.
So here are my two topics thatyou can talk about.
We can either talk about mygolf obsession or we can talk
about my big plans for thefuture.

Speaker 1 (26:25):
I mean this is tough.
I mean we should say big plans,we're going to do both.
Okay, that's what I say.

Speaker 2 (26:32):
All right, we got to do both, all right.

Speaker 1 (26:33):
Because we have to do golf, but then we can't choose
golf.
I mean, I would look so like ahorrible person, even though
that's my number one rank orderright there.
So yeah.

Speaker 2 (26:42):
So which one first, then Golf, okay, all right.
So I can't decide whether thisobsession I have with golf.
So for about five yearsactually, let me go back way
back, all right.
So I've always loved the ideaof golf, but I never really
golfed, and the times that I didgolf when I was younger, I
didn't play very well at all.

(27:03):
So I was not a good golfer.
And I kick myself today thinkingthat for four years in high
school I dated someone who wasnot only a member of the girls
golf team, but her father wasthe coach of the golf team in
high school and they practicedat PGA National down in Palm
Beach Gardens, which is referredto as the golf capital of the

(27:23):
world.
So I had this opportunity to,but I never learned to play well
, even though I liked it.
But about five years ago Ipicked it back up and started
from scratch very poor golfer.
And over the past five years Ihave really become obsessed with
the game and I play it a lotand I've actually improved quite
a bit, right, and so I havethis kind of ongoing dilemma of

(27:47):
just how much I love golf, howmuch I can.
There's all kinds of benefitsthat I have reaped from this,
and I can list all thesebenefits, but then there's
always this little voice in theback of my brain feeling guilty
and said this is allrationalization.
You know that you are spendingway too much time focused on
this and not doing things thatare even more edifying for the

(28:10):
world.
You know, would Jesus'disciples have been golfing?
So anyway, the right answer,I'm sure, is you probably should
play a little bit less but it'snot a bad thing that you're
playing golf but also just kindof the stereotype that golf has
too of rich.

(28:30):
You're breaking that stereotype,All the categories.
Maybe not the rich part, butthe white men's club.
Okay, Okay, that part.
But then I rationalized it andsay, no, this the white men's
club okay, okay, that part.
But then I rationalized it andsay, no, this is a municipal
golf course, right?
There's all folks and there'sactually quite a bit of
diversity out there, so it'sokay, they'll.
You know, it's so funny thatI'm finding ways to tear down

(28:50):
this thing that I really like,even in the midst of really
liking it.
Here we're going to have you,we'll start on the positive side
and then you can tear me downif you want.
So what are all the personalbenefits?
Here?
We'll do a game show, we'regoing to do a game show within a
game show here.
All right, you tell me what areall the personal benefits I get

(29:11):
out of playing golf?
There's physical exercise.
That has been amazing, right?
So, unless it's super, superhot, I walk, and so I get close
to six-mile walk-in every time Iplay.
I call it old man exercise.
It's very inefficient exercise,but I get good exercise and it
has been fabulous.
And for me to want to do thatover and over, right, so often,

(29:33):
exercise is something that youhave to do, but it's something
that I actually very much lookforward to.
I'm disappointed on the daysthat I have to use a cart
because it would be dangerousnot to do so.
So, anyway, so that, what else?

Speaker 1 (29:49):
I'm actually a big fan of golf, like you, mostly,
just as an admirer I'm terrible.
But one of the things I mostadmire about golf is you call
penalties on yourself, and so itrequires honesty and discipline
rather than fudging it Just todo it.
The right way is hard, so Ithink it would encourage a kind

(30:12):
of discipline and honesty.

Speaker 2 (30:13):
Okay, so that's good and we'll get to the discipline
part in a second.
Did either of you happen to seethe news?
You mentioned the honesty ofwhat happened this past week.
So you're looking like this thesand trap.
Yeah, you were a little bitbusy with a wedding so maybe you
didn't see much of the tour.
This up-and-comer named SahithThigala I hope I'm pronouncing
that correctly, golfer was inthe tour championship where

(30:35):
they're playing for.
You know, the winner gets $25million right and it's just many
million dollars at stake.
He's in the bunker and he takesa swing and for those of you
who don't know anything aboutgolf, it's a penalty if you
touch the sand in any way beforeyou hit the ball.
And in his backswing he thinkshe moves the sand slightly.

(30:59):
He's not sure, but he thinks.
And the rules official said ifyou think you move the sand,
it's a two-stroke penalty.
And so he took it on.
Nobody would have noticed had henot said anything.
It did not really affect hisswing in any way.
He didn't really get anybenefit from this.
There was nothing and everyonewould say that this is a an
archaic rule anyway, but he tooktwo strokes.

(31:20):
It ended up costing him 2.5million dollars now he got like
seven million dollars orsomething like that.
So so it wasn't, but he lost$2.5 million because he fell in
the standings enough to losethat, and it was all because of
his honesty, so that was a verycool.

Speaker 1 (31:37):
That's amazing.
That's an incredible story,yeah.

Speaker 2 (31:40):
And he's like I'm sure he's not hurting
financially, but he's not yet.

Speaker 1 (31:45):
he's an up-and-comer Not many people can give up 2.5
without it stinging.
I mean I could, but I would behonest, that's right.

Speaker 2 (31:56):
And then you also mentioned the discipline.
I'll make that a different one.
I have really found myself evenenjoying the discipline of
learning the swing and thehoning your craft, of learning
the swing and the honing yourcraft.
Now, I assume some people willbe thinking this is a totally
useless, meaningful,unmeaningful craft that you're
doing, but just to learn how todo something better and better,

(32:18):
almost like what you were sayingwith the language, right?
I don't know how often whatlanguage is, we'll get to it
later.
Okay yeah, but I've beenworking on Syriac, okay yeah, so
is this now all right?
And maybe you're going to endup using that in some way in
your development.

Speaker 3 (32:30):
Oh, I will.

Speaker 2 (32:31):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (32:32):
So you're doing it for pragmatic reasons.

Speaker 2 (32:33):
Right, but just, and I don't know why the image of
quilting comes to mind, but justthe craft of doing something
and doing it well and learninghow to do it better and
improving it.
Something at this age has beena really cool.

Speaker 1 (32:47):
It's a total skill game right there's no forcing it
.

Speaker 2 (32:50):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (32:51):
You know, and you have to know the technique right
, yeah, so that's impressive.

Speaker 2 (32:55):
And I thought it would take me a year, maybe 18
months, to, you know, basicallyget it down.
And it's been basically all ofthe five years for me to really
get a sense of confidence.
When I stand over almost anyshot, the assumption is I will
hit it reasonably well, asopposed to I have no idea what's

(33:17):
going to happen here, so it's avery long haul.
I mean just even like how yougrip the club is you've got to
have lesson after lesson withthat just gripping and there's
readjustments all the time andeven the pros still practice and
it doesn't seem like it makesany sense that you have to
practice gripping a club,something that you do, you know,
thousands of times a daysometimes.
But anyway, so that'sSociability 100%, Now, I would

(33:39):
say somewhat.
The downside is I do feel alittle bit bad that I'm not as
social with some folks like youas much as I have, but I've got
a very great group of friends onthe golf course and I just love
banter.

Speaker 1 (33:56):
I was going to say I bet you have the golf banter.

Speaker 2 (33:58):
You have the repetition You've got probably
running jokes Exactly, and sothere is something very
uplifting about the friendshipsout on the course.

Speaker 1 (34:09):
Sports teams in general just have, I think,
really almost their own way ofcommunication.
Lots of teasing, but not to thepoint that it tears you down.
If it's done right, I mean itsort of is teasing that says, I
know who you are, but I'macknowledging it and it still
makes you feel good somehow.

Speaker 2 (34:28):
There's something about banter when you are
criticizing someone and you knowit's not a sincere criticism,
that brings people together forsome reason.

Speaker 1 (34:38):
I haven't quite figured out the psychology
behind that, but I think you areacknowledging a person for
their individuality and who theyare, just like I felt so very
good when you mentioned theemail and texting that really
warmed my heart and I alwaysruin it by always saying you do
know that was a joke, right, youalways have to follow it up
with, are you sure?
I'd say beauty, because golfcourses are gorgeous.

(35:01):
I was going to say nature.

Speaker 3 (35:01):
Yeah, I was going to say that, natural beauty.

Speaker 2 (35:04):
It is so much fun being out there, and just
something about the expanse too.
Right Now, I am not sometimeswhen people will point to
evolutionary biology as anexplanation for something.
True what I said?
True, it's true, but I haveheard that there's something
about how we feel more at peacein big, open spaces because we

(35:27):
can see the predators and we cansee danger from far away, and
so there's a safety feeling.
But whatever the reason.

Speaker 1 (35:35):
There's another thing too, which I would say is that
we evolved from a savanna, whichmeans that you have lots of
green and water.
That's sort of why you evolvedthere.
But the other thing is we'rethis one species that is over
the whole world thing is wherethis one species that is over
the whole world, and one youknow.
One thought on this is that,just because of our curiosity,
we always want to know what'saround the corner, and that's

(35:57):
how a golf course is actually,you know, with the dog legs, and
so on is you just want to seewhat's around that corner, so
you might do that with fearwhat's around the corner?

Speaker 2 (36:09):
So, whatever the reason, there is just something
about semi-manicured nature ofgolf course that's upkeep, but
there's also just regular natureall around it that it is
beautiful.

Speaker 1 (36:21):
Those are our French gardens, I guess I don't know.

Speaker 2 (36:23):
You know I've thought about that because you know,
again trying to justify oh, allthe irrigation that goes into
golf course.
Because you know, again tryingto justify oh, all the
irrigation that goes in a golfcourse, but you think about all
the folks and our golf coursehere in Rome, stonebridge, gets
used a lot, that it is kind oflike walking through a park.

Speaker 1 (36:45):
You know, a good walk spoiled is the phrase of you
know it's attributed to Twain,but it's not Twain.
But a golf course in Rome isdifferent than a golf course in
phoenix, arizona.
To be honest, in terms of yeah,we have plenty of water.

Speaker 2 (36:51):
Yeah, that's true, but anyways, we keep on going
over down other directions here.
But just the beauty.
You know I will often, on hotdays I'll I have a umbrella that
has a reflection and I getdisappointed, right, because I
just don't get to see theexpanse the umbrella kind of
gets in the way of the beauty,and so it's yeah.
So those are the big points,and y'all did a very good job.

(37:13):
I didn't even have to addanything, so thank you very much
.
So what's the big news?
What's the guilt I was actuallygonna ask should I not be
feeling as guilty as I sometimesfeel?
I don't understand where thiscomes from, but I just don't
think Jesus' disciples would bespending a whole lot of time on
the golf course.
Or am I wrong about that?

Speaker 3 (37:34):
Maybe not, but then a lot of the things we do, I
can't imagine them doing either,so I don't think you should
feel guilty.
All right, you should feel alittle moderately guilty, all
right.

Speaker 2 (37:46):
Well, I mean, that's the sweet spot for the Christian
faith.
It's a little moderate, guilty.

Speaker 1 (37:50):
I mean guilt is sort of my stock in trade, so I can
speak about this.
But what I would encourage youis if this is something that you
enjoy, that is a positive inyour life, you're doing really
no harm and it has thosebenefits, then you ought to do
it.
This has not been the entiretyof your life.
This is a stage of your life.

(38:11):
You don't know whether it'sgoing to last another three or
four years.
I mean, it might go straightinto retirement.
You just don't know.
Well, I've thought about thattoo.

Speaker 2 (38:20):
There is a happiness that I'm doing this now, rather
than waiting too late and all ofa sudden an injury or something
comes up and I don't get to Notjust pushing something down the
road and all of a sudden notgetting to.

Speaker 1 (38:33):
You're not missing out, I think, on familiar
obligations, you know, and Ithink it's actually great.
I'm jealous, okay.

Speaker 2 (38:41):
That is great.
Thank you for that.
All right, so you're pointingat me like don't even spin the
wheel, just go ahead and tellthe big news.
Yeah, go ahead, all right,because it is related to Church
Potluck.
So if you've stayed with usthis long, got some.

Speaker 1 (38:58):
Or joining us new.
What?
Or joining us new?

Speaker 2 (39:01):
Or joining us new.

Speaker 3 (39:01):
I just meant if you stayed, if you've been listening
to this so far, for the past 41minutes.
You haven't shut off yet.

Speaker 2 (39:07):
You know, if you look at like YouTube videos, it
tells you you know this manyviewers were here, and then it
tapers off.

Speaker 1 (39:13):
We're down to two right now.
That's right.
We're peaking with golf, nodoubt, for both of you still
listening.

Speaker 2 (39:18):
We're grateful.
But my really big I've got somereally big news, actually a big
, major milestone in life thatI've entered into an agreement
with Berry College for this tobe my final year as a full-time
professor at Berry and followedby two years of half-time,
part-time work here at Berry andit's called the Tom Kennedy

(39:38):
Plan Tom, if you're out therelistening but a phased
retirement.
But even though I'm stillrelatively young and I still
love my job very much, I've gotsome other thoughts and ideas
and things I want to do and Istill love my job very much.
I've got some other thoughtsand ideas and things I want to
do and so I decided in asituation that I can do it.
It's kind of wrapping up hereat Barry and it's both

(40:00):
surprising to say but also alittle bit exciting as well.

Speaker 1 (40:05):
Are you mostly?
Obviously, you've made thedecision, decision which means
that you're leaning towards it.
But what are you perhaps mostanxious about and what are you
most grateful about this move?

Speaker 2 (40:15):
What I'm most anxious about is and I I don't.
So I've checked with folks tomake sure that I'm not doing
this stupidly right?
So what I want to do in my nextphase of of life May or may not
generate revenue, yeah and soso what I want to do in my next
phase of life may or may notgenerate revenue, and so I'm
assuming can I retire and notgenerate revenue in the rest of

(40:36):
my life?
And so that's what I'm mostlyworried about, and I guess
everybody is.
But how do I know, how do youknow when you can retire?
And so that's been on my mind.

Speaker 1 (40:48):
I think a lot of people our age have that very
question.
I wish we knew there was a good, clear answer.

Speaker 2 (40:53):
Yeah, so that's the biggest anxiety part of it Right
, that's really the only anxietypart of it is to make sure that
I'm making a smart choice, notjust a foolish one.
But the goal actually to dothis in part was prompted by
what we're doing right here,doing Church Potluck.

(41:13):
I have really enjoyed doingthis, even though we've had our
ups and downs.
Let me actually take a quickstep aside.
Part of the reason that we havebeen inconsistent or I have
been inconsistent about gettingthese out is because I have
decided I have set the bar waytoo high on these podcasts, and
what I mean by that is I spendway, way too much time editing

(41:36):
them.
When I first got together, Iknew nothing about this.
Everything was a learning curvebut something that came up when
I was talking to people aboutme starting this up, they kept
saying make sure the recordingquality is good, because people
won't listen if the recordingquality isn't good.
And then I did a few and theysaid, oh man, the recording
quality is so good, and so I wasreally proud of that, right.

(41:57):
But then, okay, if they thoughtthat was good, I started
getting deeper and deeper intoediting, to the point where I
was spending hours takingbreaths out of you want to take
a deep breath was spending hourstaking breaths out of you want
to take a deep breath, and itreally has.
All of a sudden, I got sowrapped up in the form that I

(42:18):
was just thinking, hey, peoplearen't here to see something
that perfect, right?
And especially when I waslistening to this American Life
and I heard someone take abreath, I said if they can have
a breath, we can have a breathon this episode.
So there's still some editingbut anyway I'm going to try to
really hone down on the processand try to figure out a much
more sustainable process fordoing the podcast.

(42:41):
But anyway, I've really enjoyeddoing this my whole life, my
whole adult life for sure.
But ever since a teenagerlistening to talk radio and
being confused how Jesse Jacksonand Jerry Falwell can both be
followers of Jesus right, justpeople with such different
perspectives I've always tried,I've had this lifelong pursuit

(43:01):
of how do we know what's trueand, especially from a faith
perspective, how are we supposedto live our lives.
And I did that a lot throughthe sociology of knowledge and
specifically the sociology ofreligious knowledge, and I've
really enjoyed that.
But just this kind ofexploration and kind of, with my
ADD tendencies, just go off inthis direction.
Go off in this direction.
No, this is interesting, Ijokingly said when I announced

(43:23):
my retirement on Facebook.
I made it Facebook official.
I said now I set off to churchpotluck media empire and I was
slightly joking about that, Isaid that tongue-in-cheek.
But I'm hoping to do more kindsof content that produce kinds
of Christian resources that areboth gracious in tone and kind

(43:46):
of lighthearted but also helppeople think about some of the
deeper, more important things infaith, hopefully to offset some
of the very narrow-mindedanti-intellectual that you can
find in American Christianityand get a lot of attention in
the media and so— Well, that's anoble pursuit A difficult one,
since narrow-mindedness oftentends to win out.

(44:09):
And that's kind of one of thethings I think about, right,
because to have a media presence, you have to have a voice right
, and that voice is much moreembraced if you are like super
conservative or superprogressive or if you take a
hard stand right and you know,hey, can't we all learn from one
another?
Is not a really?

Speaker 1 (44:30):
It's not a spectacle, it's not gripping.

Speaker 2 (44:31):
It's not gripping right and so I'm going in this.
The plan here is to go in thisvery modest expectations.
Do my part, you know.
Drop my, provide my two centsand what's the toss my stone
into the, you know, my ripples.

Speaker 3 (44:47):
Yeah, we get what you're saying, yeah.

Speaker 2 (44:50):
I think you're.
I don't know what the metaphoris, but anyway.
So going in there with very lowexpectations, but just maybe be
a little bit helpful.

Speaker 1 (44:59):
Totally unsolicited advice is to approach it as you
do golf, which is you don't haveplans to be in the PGA, but you
want to get better and you wantto learn the discipline of it
and you want to enjoy it.

Speaker 2 (45:10):
And I want to learn the discipline of it and you
want to enjoy it and I want tobe helpful and you want to be
helpful and enjoy it.

Speaker 1 (45:14):
And if you can make progress as you go, then that
seems to me sufficient more toproceed.

Speaker 2 (45:19):
Yeah, great, thank you all, and for those reasons
I'm very excited about it, I'mvery much looking forward to it,
and so it won't be much morethan the podcast this year
because still full-time and thenyou know.
So I picture this as a veryslow roll, but somewhere, you
know, in the next three years tomore or less try to kind of

(45:41):
dive in fairly deep.
That's good.
You're going to start sellingads.
Either that or I get to golf 36holes a day.

Speaker 3 (45:49):
Or both Do it all.

Speaker 2 (45:51):
That's right, that's right, but anyway.
So that's my big news and I'mexcited about it.
That's awesome, that's great,great, great.
I guess I can edit this partout, at least as I'm sitting
here thinking.
But we'll go ahead and finishup, because we have a little bit
of chat we can do afterward alittle bit, unless there's
anything very gripping we needto talk about no, no, I can't

(46:15):
think of anything right now.
All right, that was a lot of fun, guys, thank you.
Thank you very much.
It's good to be back in behindthe microphone talking with you
all, yeah, and let's see if wecan say goodbye to everybody
take care y'all have a good weekthat's right.
I guess I should go ahead andgive my little traditional outro
here.
I want to thank you all forsitting around the table with us

(46:37):
today, and I hope that we haveprovided you with some food for
thought and something to chew on.
Some news, too, some news, yeah, some news, but we aren't
finished yet.
After the music finishes up,we'll have some leftovers for
you to enjoy, some additionalthoughts that we share with one
another after we wrap up, sofeel free to continue listening
to those.
We appreciate your support and,as part of that support, please

(47:01):
consider subscribing, ratingand reviewing Church Potluck,
because it's got to be a mediaempire in the future, and it
starts with your ratings, Ithink.
I think.

Speaker 3 (47:07):
I'll find out eventually about that.

Speaker 2 (47:09):
But until we gather around the table next time.
This has been Church Potluck,and thanks for listening.

Speaker 1 (47:15):
So since we all were expelled from this building,
Michael, I was actually curiouswhat you saw as sort of almost
like a spiritual element of it.

Speaker 3 (47:25):
It was kind of like going into exile or being you
know like, yeah you're, becauseI mean I don't know how it is
for you all.
But you know Evans Hall is likea second home to me.
I mean I'm here almost everyday and you know I feel really
comfortable here.

Speaker 2 (47:41):
So even over the summers.

Speaker 3 (47:43):
Yeah, I'll be sometimes here on Saturday on
the summers, just, you know,maybe just for an hour or two,
but still it's like it's a placethat I could, you know, do some
of my work and research, andmost of my books are there.
So being, you know, it wasalmost like I was, you know,
like expelled from paradise, youknow, an Adam and Eve moment.

(48:06):
But fortunately, where I endedup was turned out to be really a
nice experience.
I did get in through thegraciousness of the library here
.
I had a study room that Iturned into a temporary office
there and it was great to be,first of all, with all the
librarians who were so friendlyand nice to me.

(48:27):
And also you had all the books.
My study room was.
If you just walk right out,it's where all the philosophy
books are.
Oh, so, I could, just you know,I'd go in and I'd go Now.

Speaker 2 (48:37):
was that intentional?

Speaker 3 (48:38):
I need a copy of Kant's Critique of Pure Reason.
Oh, it's right there.
You just walk out or you canjust browse.

Speaker 2 (48:45):
Now, was that happenstance, or did they kind
of do that to be?

Speaker 3 (48:47):
honest, I don't think , unless there's some sort of
you know, supernatural forcethat made that decision.

Speaker 1 (48:54):
I'm going to just be a little bit goofy here, but I
think it's true.
It's like for people who lovebooks, it's like being with your
friends.

Speaker 3 (49:00):
Oh yeah, it was fantastic.
It was great to be, I mean, the.
The bad thing was it was reallylonely.
I was up in the second floor.
There weren't that many peoplearound, so you don't really see,
but that's often the case inthe summer anyway.
Even here, you know, in EvansHall, in my regular office too,
you don't see that many people.
But it was nice to be in thatkind of.

Speaker 2 (49:22):
They didn't put Christy.
I know Christy spends a lot oftime.
She was somewhere else.
I think, in the, in Mac in thescience bill, yes, but.

Speaker 3 (49:29):
I just, I kind of last minute, asked for a space
and they found a space in thelibrary.

Speaker 1 (49:35):
When we did move out I mean regular Chrissy Snyder I
spoke with her and I told herthat I felt I couldn't fully
account for why it felt so verygloomy and it did have this kind
of feeling.
The building was beingtemporarily shut down, but there
was a sense of a part of ourlife was being shut down and,
for one thing, we were carryingout a lot of us at least lots

(49:57):
and lots of boxes of ourartifacts and books and it just
had that feeling of being like aforced exit.

Speaker 3 (50:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (50:06):
I don't think I attach much of a spiritual
meaning to it, other than itmade me think about what will
retirement feel like?

Speaker 3 (50:14):
you know so yeah, I had that same feeling like it
was a precursor or a for youknow.
Yeah, kind of a looking aheadto what retirement will be like,
where it's where you'repermanently leaving the exile.

Speaker 2 (50:28):
Yeah, or it could be like a twilight zone episode,
where you're in the library andyou're so excited but you drop
your glasses, and then you'resurrounded by all your friends
but you can't read.
That is one of the.

Speaker 1 (50:39):
I can hardly watch that one.
That's so tough.
Yeah, just awful Cruel of thewriters to do that.
I think.
All right, so you're learning anew language.
Just go ahead and take theaudience through the languages
that you know.
Come on, okay, I know I lovethis.

Speaker 3 (50:55):
I know English.
I always say that I have tostart out with that, with
English, because what You'recounting.

Speaker 2 (51:02):
I'm going to listen.

Speaker 3 (51:03):
Yeah, yeah.
So in school I studied French,and my speaking is rusty.
I'm working on that, though,but reading is pretty good.
In fact, I'm reading a lot ofFrench theology, which has been
helpful in my research, so mytheological French is pretty
good.
And then German.
I actually majored in German incollege and spent some time in

(51:24):
Germany, so German is probablymy second best language right
now, after English, and then Igrew up speaking modern.

Speaker 2 (51:34):
Armenian.
I mean, that was your everydaylanguage.

Speaker 3 (51:36):
Yeah, yeah, growing up with my grandparents, all
four, I mean, I only knew threeof my grandparents, but they all
spoke Armenian, and my parentstoo.

Speaker 2 (51:45):
If I can impose on you, just say a little something
in Armenian right now.

Speaker 3 (51:50):
What I said was how are you Dale, Laves, Aisar?
What I said was how are youDale, Are you okay, Are you good
, yeah?
So yeah, that's actually forthose in the know out there,
that's Western Armenian dialect.
There are two dialects ofArmenian, but those of us who
come originally from TurkeyTurkish Armenians, speak that
Western dialect.
If you go to Armenia today,they speak a different dialect,

(52:12):
the Eastern dialect, which is inmany ways quite different.

Speaker 1 (52:16):
It's hard.

Speaker 3 (52:18):
When I first went to Armenia visited, I had a lot of
trouble understanding theEastern dialect.
Interesting I'm better nowbecause I've figured out the
differences.
But yeah, but then I studied,okay.
So this is a big question.
This is a philosophicalquestion.
How do you count languages Like, okay, dialects Eastern
Armenian, western Armenian arethey one language or two?

(52:38):
Sometimes they're not socomprehensible to each other.
Then the other problem is whatabout classical Armenian, the
Armenian that was spoken in the5th century?
Is that a different language?
I don't know, I won't get intothat.

Speaker 2 (52:52):
I'm not pressing the button.
I'm going to clump it all intoArmenian, but I studied
classical.

Speaker 3 (52:56):
Armenian.
In fact, I do research in thatarea too.
I do Greek and Latin too, so Idon't know.

Speaker 2 (53:02):
I've lost count.
Another reason I'm retiring isjust the it's embarrassing.
Not modern Greek, the smallnessI feel I'm terrible with modern
Greek.

Speaker 1 (53:12):
We are too we share that together.

Speaker 3 (53:13):
But classical Greek, biblical Greek, I'm pretty good
at.
Yeah, I should be more modest.
I shouldn't say that.

Speaker 1 (53:19):
But anyway, no, you should not, you are very modest.

Speaker 3 (53:21):
I just love languages .
I'm fascinated by them.
I want to learn more.
In fact, that's when I doretire.
I'm not going to announce myretirement here, but if I do
retire, when I do retire—.

Speaker 1 (53:31):
Are you just going to keep coming to the office?
I'm just going to keep comingto the office.

Speaker 3 (53:33):
Whether they want me there or not.
I'm just going to go up, butyeah.

Speaker 2 (53:37):
I was just last class talking to my students about
the superior wharf hypothesis,how language shapes what we see.
Can you think of an examplefrom any language to any other
language where there's thisconcept that just does not
translate, and especially if yougot one religiously, but it
doesn't have to.
If it's not religiously that'sokay, but just something.
That's that some concept thatyou can say in this language and

(53:59):
everybody understands it, butit just does not make its way to
okay so this is something and Ithis is like completely, I
could be completely wrongbecause I'm not a linguist.

Speaker 3 (54:07):
I, I really don't know I'm not a linguist linguist
.

Speaker 2 (54:10):
I'm a polyglot.

Speaker 3 (54:11):
I guess you would call me.
I know many languages, butlinguists are like people who
study the science of language,so I'm just kind of a dilettante
when it comes to that.
But one thing that I'veremarked to some people about
Armenian is that it seems to methat some of the words have more

(54:32):
spiritual significance, andI'll give you one example.
In English we have two differentwords.
We have a word table, like yourdinner table or the table
you're sitting we're sittingaround right now, and then we
have the word altar for thesacred table right when the

(54:53):
Lord's Supper is celebrated orsacrifice is performed.
Armenian has just one word,seran, which both means table.
You use it for your table athome and also for the altar in
the church, and I've oftenwondered I don't necessarily buy
into the Saber Wharf hypothesis, but I just wonder, if you

(55:15):
speak a language where the termthat is both used for secular or
more mundane purposes is thesame word you also use for
spiritual, whether that givesyou more of a kind of an
understanding of the sense thatthe spiritual world extends
beyond.

Speaker 1 (55:33):
Or into.

Speaker 3 (55:34):
Or into yeah.
That's a good way to say it,whereas when you separate them,
you get like a distinctionbetween the secular and the
sacred.

Speaker 2 (55:46):
We lose the connection that this is a meal
that we're having in a sacredspace that this is just like
gathering around a table.

Speaker 3 (55:53):
Yeah, and so that's, I've never really I've told this
to a couple of students, I'venever really published it or
done anything with it, but and Ithink I can come up with other
examples of that too wheresomething about the English
language allows us to sort ofseparate the sacred and the
profane more than otherlanguages do- that's interesting
.
Translate into, like even ourFirst Amendment, like

(56:15):
church-state distinctions andall where, if you speak certain
languages, it doesn't make asmuch sense to separate out the
two realms.

Speaker 2 (56:24):
So this is a whole other episode actually, but I
kind of say the opposite, Ithink with regard to agape,
because I mean kind of say theopposite, I think with regard to
agape because I mean toAmericans' use of the word love,
because we kind of have erosand philos and agape all wrapped
up into one word, and so wedon't make those distinctions,
which I don't think helps us toconnect agape to eros.

(56:49):
You know what I'm saying?
I kind of bemoan the fact thatwe don't have three different
words, so that when it's reallyclear, when we're talking about
this kind of love versus thiskind of love, and so in that
case I'm thinking it's nice tohave those distinctions.
But I like the way you put ittoo, though, that sometimes
having that one word blends thetwo, the sacred and the profane,
together.

Speaker 3 (57:16):
Yeah, that's a great example with with love.
But yeah, I was wondering thatthat's interesting because you
could say that you know, in thegreek example, when you talk
about eros right, that you knowit's that's not, that's purely
physical, that's purely sexual,whereas when you say you know
you, you can say I love you andthat has that can convey all the
richness of love not just thephysical love, but it has, it

(57:37):
can have a spiritual dimensiontoo.
That eros in Greek Plato wouldsay it has already, but it would
be specifically erotic love.

Speaker 1 (57:47):
I think that's one of the few times I got feedback on
.
Something I said on here was Iwas very pro-eros for spiritual
reasons and you know I got allthese emails and texts like
perverts, but I didn't respondto him for several months
because I didn't open them.
Sure.

Speaker 2 (58:02):
Touche, very cool.
All right, we have a meeting toget to in a little bit.
Oh, do we?
Oh, yes, we do.

Speaker 3 (58:10):
Yeah, we have an Evans School meeting, yeah, so
we'll go ahead and wrap up andthank y'all.

Speaker 2 (58:14):
That was a lot of fun , it was.