December 3, 2024 • 50 mins
What happens when faith, firearms, and politics intersect in the pews? Join us as we explore the astonishing practices of the Rod of Iron Ministries, a church led by Pastor Sean Moon that uniquely incorporates firearms into their worship services, inspired by their interpretation of Revelation 19:15. Discover the church's roots in the Unification Church founded by Reverend Sun Myung Moon and the family tensions that birthed this controversial offshoot.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:15):
Welcome back to the Church Review Podcast.
It's good to be back.
I am your host, jesse Graham.
I'm joined with my co-host, samCharles, and we've got an
interesting episode ahead.
Some say we have a blast of anepisode.
Yep, that's right.
We certainly do.
(00:35):
We are looking at the Rod ofEye Ministries, known as the
Sanctuary Church, but most of uswould know them as a gun-toting
freedom-fighting church in theUnited States and look forward
to the episode.
So, if you tuned in, thank youfor listening and we hope we can
(00:58):
provide here at the ChurchReview Podcast.
Sam Jesse, welcome again to thepodcast.
Glad to have you on.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Thanks, brother, good to be here.
And look, this is a.
We're looking at a sort of it'salmost like a.
They call this a Rod of IronMinistries because it is a
church, but they also they coverlots of different kind of
facets relating to culture andthat kind of thing today, don't
they?
You know, I think we're alreadykind of seeing a theme,
actually, man, with some ofthese churches where there seems
(01:29):
to be sort of a bit of familydysfunction, a bit of disunity.
You know, people don't seem tobe getting along.
I've been reading Jane Eyrelately, actually, jane Eyre.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Jane.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Eyre, yeah, a bit of a classic, but yeah, there's a
lot of family dysfunction inthis church.
We're looking at today, solooking forward to it.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Just quickly a shout out to oneof the followers who have been
listening into the podcast whoactually mentioned the episode
we did on snakebiting that firstepisode I believe it was.
He actually made a point therethat there are Trinitarian and
non-Trinitarian snakebitingchurches.
(02:07):
So I just thought I'd mentionthat.
Didn't grab his name, but I'lldefinitely reply to him and give
him a heads up and a thank you.
But I've actually made a Googlereview.
You can actually see it on anyof the churches we covered,
hashtag free the snakes.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
I feel like we almost have to review it again, don't
we?
There's Trinitarian andnon-Trinitarian.
It sort of makes it a bit moreclear.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
I think that would be handy, nodoubt.
But moving on, rod of IronMinistries, founded by Pastor
Sean Moon, and you mentioned,there's some family divide going
here.
Son of Reverend Sun Myung Moon.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
Yeah, so Sun Myung Moon.
As you mentioned, heestablished the Unification
Church in Seoul in South Koreain 1954.
He died in 2012,.
So he was at the helm for quitea few years.
So he was at the helm for quitea few years, yes, but then,
sort of about a year after hedied, his son and his wife had a
(03:10):
dispute and eventually that ledto the son, sean Moon,
establishing the UnificationChurch, or should I say, an
offshoot of the UnificationChurch, called the World Peace
and Unification Sanctuary Church.
Yeah, that's a mouthful.
And not only did they have a bitof a.
(03:30):
You know, he established hisown church in the US as opposed
to South Korea.
Right, he went on to state thathis mother is the whore of
Babylon, as seen in Revelation17.
So yeah, I don't think theywere sending each other
Christmas cards or anything.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
No no.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Not a happy Christmas at the Moons anyway.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
No, no doubt about it .
Wow, that's news to me.
Yeah, so I think it was founded2017, I believe by Sean Moon
over there in the United States.
I think he's actually got adegree at Harvard, united States
.
I think he's actually got adegree at Harvard, so I believe
that his father wanted him to bethe heir of the Unification
Church of the Moonies iscommonly known nickname
(04:11):
quotations Moonies but obviouslythey're doing their own thing
now, pastor Sean Moon and hiswife.
They are headquartered, Ibelieve, in Pennsylvania, but
that might be moving.
I'm hearing news that might bemoving to Waco, texas.
Yeah, and they've got someproperty in Tennessee as well,
so yeah, yeah, waco Texas justhas a history, so I'm just
(04:37):
pointing that out everyone.
There's a pattern showing here.
Now they're commonly well-known, I guess, and that's not only
the media attention, but they'rewell-known for a church that
actually interprets a certainpassage of Scripture, that's
Revelation 19.15, the rod ofiron, to mean well as weapons,
(04:57):
as guns.
So they're quite a heavy on gunchurch.
They worship, they practice,they do their whole service with
guns and there is a strong sortof Christian self-defense I
don't know if you want to callit ethics that's involved here
(05:18):
and I think that's what makesthem distinctively unique from a
lot of other churches is thatthey do, you know, they're not
afraid to show their guns, butalso in worship, in service,
actually have those guns withthem everywhere they go.
So that makes that distinct,yeah, that makes that very
distinct from a lot ofmainstream churches.
(05:40):
Now the Revelation 191515passage.
Are you aware of the passage?
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Yeah, it's another one you're talking about, and
it's quoted earlier on inRevelation as well.
Revelation, chapter 2, verse 27.
So he ruled them with an ironscepter.
He would dash them to pieceslike pottery.
It's actually quoted from theOld Testament.
It's from Psalm 2, verse 9,that they're, uh, referring to
(06:07):
but yeah again man, similar tothe snake biting churches where
they've kind of they've honed inon one verse specifically
without considering the whole ofbiblical testimony.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
So, yeah, maybe a bit to unpack there, but yeah well,
if it's a revelation 1915, Ibelieve that's a book that's has
a high use of apocalyptic genre.
Yes, so you're going to get alot of symbolism.
You're going to get a lot ofallegories used, metaphors, no
doubt, but if we're talkingabout the rod of iron, it seems
(06:40):
like Pastor Sean Moon hasinterpreted that to mean a
weapon of some sort, and in thiscase, ar-15 seems to be the
choice.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
There's a particular emphasis on guns, isn't there?
Speaker 1 (06:46):
yeah, right undoubtedly um, and so, yeah, I,
I guess they're you know, andnot not even looking at uh sort
of the context, because, youknow, if we're looking at the
apostle john, I believe, is theauthor here writing, writing
revelation here.
I don't think he has, I don'tthink he has the AR-15 in mind
here.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
Yeah, I certainly don't think that was what he
originally intended.
Right, right.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
I mean we could substitute it for a spear.
Is that what he's talking here?
But even then I'd be treadingvery carefully when we're
looking at Revelation toextrapolate doctrine.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
Yeah, and it'd be interesting to chat to Moon how
in his exegesis he came to thatconclusion, because he's
obviously some kind of he's apastor.
I don't know in terms ofaccreditation or whatever, but
obviously you know that's howhe's interpreted that passage
and yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
So just a little backdrop.
Then, going into some of thecore beliefs, A lot of what the
Rod of Iron Ministries and Iguess, the Sanctuary Church
would believe would be acrossover to the Moonies, the
Unification Church you mentionedearlier in the podcast, and so
a lot of those beliefs would bethe divine principle, which is
(08:03):
sort of this foundationalteaching of the Mooney Church.
It's kind of like aninterpretation of scripture.
Another core belief would bethe emphasis on God's
characteristics being feminineand masculine.
So there's that dualism there.
One which I kind of am a littlebit suspicious on is their
(08:25):
interpretation of the four.
Are you aware of how theyinterpret the four?
I'm not.
No, so the mainstream Christianargument is that it's caused by
disobedience to God's word, andI think unanimously across the
(08:45):
Christian spectrum here we wouldagree.
There they interpret it to meanhave a sexual fall.
So it somewhat strays away fromthe traditional Christian
worldview in that sense, whichis quite interesting if you're
looking at it like that, whichis quite interesting if you're
looking at it like that.
And so the way to go aboutreconciling us back to God or in
(09:11):
this way, reconciling humanityback to its true condition,
which was perfect in the gardenis through these marriage and
blessing ceremonies that they do.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
Yes, you know the one where they.
That's how they tie in.
Yeah, I had been looking at hismarriage and blessing
ceremonies and I was like,interesting, but yeah, that
makes a lot more sense.
Yeah, pertaining to thedoctrine of humanity.
Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
Yeah, so that kind of offsets.
Your inherited sin is bygetting married and usually
you're matched by the churchwithout any prior contact with
the other.
So does that mean in a sense,that they diminish the
significance of original sin.
I don't know where they wouldstand on the adoption of
original sin.
I would think they would have aconcept of original sin of
(09:55):
sorts, with more emphasis on thefalling kind of sexually into
sin.
But marriage becomes the vehicleby which that is fixed Right.
Marriage becomes the vehicle bywhich that is fixed Right, not,
you know, the atonement, notthe Jesus you know being that
sort of mechanism, and it flowsinto this.
Next core belief here that I'vegot is that, because it's a
(10:17):
restorationist faith, theUnification Church and you know,
apologies, I'm just bringingsome context here because you
know we could do a separateepisode on the Moonies
altogether, but it's justgetting some layers here because
it's potentially what you know,pastor Sean Moon and a lot of
his churches, a lot of hischurch, actually believes here,
(10:39):
but it's a restorationist church.
They see Christ as his work onthe cross as unfinished, and so
therefore, the Messiah, thecurrent Messiah, is the head of
the church, which is Son MyungMoon Try not to butcher that
name and so he essentially isthe Messiah present day, and so
(11:04):
through him completing the workthat Jesus failed on the cross,
there is a sense of universalsalvation, which is another core
belief, and that way is madethrough marriage.
Anyway, long-winded all that, tosay that potentially this is
what Pastor Sean Moon at the Rodof Iron Ministries may believe.
Any thoughts on that, sam Well?
Speaker 2 (11:29):
slightly concerning, actually, to be honest, Some of
those beliefs you just outlinedthere, particularly, you know.
I mean the stuff about himbeing some kind of messianic
figure.
I had read up about that.
I mean, that's concerning inand of itself, right, but I
hadn't heard about the universalsalvation stuff.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
So that's always a bit alarming as well.
Yeah, from a doctrinal point ofview, yeah, that's right.
That would be my thoughtsmainly.
I mean, I don't know, man, whenI was looking into this Rod of
Iron ministry, I was lookinginto this rot of iron ministry.
I seem to get really caught upin their kind of a political
affiliation as much as anything.
I didn't go into their doctrinea lot just because I want to
(12:09):
cover both, so I'm going tosegue into that now.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
Um, so that's just a bit of backdrop on some of the
core beliefs that they may, uh,hold to, but again, it's
slippery because you're dealingwith a an isolated well, you
know, somewhat isolatedcommunity, so it's hard to get a
real grasp of what theyactually believe.
So it's really hard Because Iwent on the website here there's
nothing about really abouttheir core beliefs.
(12:33):
However, they have so muchabout the Second Amendment, the
right to defend oneself,property, etc.
Basically the constitution.
There is even an interpretationon the website there of, or
maybe a petition of, a newconstitution of sorts.
(12:56):
Right?
So when you talk aboutpolitical affiliation, yeah,
you're talking aboutconservative right-wing,
potentially extreme right-wing,but nevertheless you're looking
at a faith here.
You're looking at a churchwhich calls Christians to take
up arms and defend themselves,and I don't you're tying
politics with religion.
(13:17):
At this point, you're tyingfaith with politics, which may
be a slippery slope.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
I think as well, there seems to be a focus on
this future kingdom of God onearth, and maybe that's why
they're not so concerned withreferring to a statement of
faith on their website or kindof their doctrinal issues,
because they're wanting tosupersede that spreading the
(13:44):
gospel for bringing the kingdomon earth in a political sense,
not just merely through sharingand through gospel witness, but
rather through some kind ofpolitical means, which is
interesting when you considerJesus's actions in the Gospels.
He seemed to continually wantto steer away from any kind of
(14:08):
political affiliation.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
Yeah, I mean you look at the perfect scripture there,
john 18, 36,.
My kingdom is not of this world.
If it were, my servants wouldfight.
Which is kind of interesting,because you see the it seems
like a contradiction here,because you see a scripture that
Pastor Sean Moon takesRevelation, but then you see
(14:31):
other points of scripture whereit seems like Jesus is not
steering in that direction.
He's appealing for a higher akingdom.
That is not, a kingdom that isotherly, you know, not worldly A
kingdom where its ethics aredifferent than our ethics.
(14:52):
You know we talk about, youknow, second Amendment.
We talk about gun rights.
We're talking about protection.
Well, we're talking about akingdom that has totally
different ethics from that.
You know what I mean differentethics from that.
You know what I mean.
To stake your faith in aworldly ethics or a worldly even
constitution may be a bridgetoo far.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
I think it is, and as well.
It sort of begs the questionwhy are they so fixated on it?
Because, like you said, we'vegot numerous passages in
Scripture where Jesus says hewho lives with a sword will die
by the sword.
Render unto Caesar what heseizes.
There's a distinction there,and it seems to be.
(15:37):
There's a certain call tononviolence.
Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.
There doesn't seem to be.
You know they're wanting toadvocate, yeah, their Second
Amendment rights, their right tobear arms, their right to
partake in this kind of violence, which seems antithetical to
scriptural witness.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
Yeah, it is, and Christ commands, if you take the
broader scripture, you know, ifyou take, if you look out, zoom
out a bit, you'll see, as youmentioned, scriptures that seem
to offset.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
And again, if you're taking Revelation, then… and
this is where I think there maybe an exception that Moon and I
don't know Men of Zilch, I guesswould advocate that they can,
whether there is kind ofcondoned violence or defense of
their own rights or whatever.
In a sense, when you look at,say I don't know, like
(16:28):
Revelation 20 and there'sreferences to them reigning on
the earth with Christ andthey're taking that as being
kind of a literal 1,000 yearsand, look, this ties into
different interpretations of thebook of Revelation itself and
Scripture as a whole, wherethey're obviously taking some
kind of I mean, you have to havea bit of background in
(16:50):
eschatology to get around thisstuff, but they're obviously
taking a bit more premillennialview.
So, as I said before, there iskind of this thousand-year reign
and maybe that's theirjustification for taking up arms
and for defending their rightsand having these rallies that
they have yeah, yeah, yeah, this, uh, yeah, I would love to.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
Um, you know, I did check out the the website and a
few of the google reviews.
You really you're polarizing alot of christians here because
you have christians that arelike either you know, we're all
for you, and then you have otherchristians where they're like
you're a cult, you know?
Yes, stare away um you knowwe're all for you.
And then you have otherChristians who are like you're a
cult.
You know, stare away.
You know, look for the kingdomthat is to come, not the kingdom
of this world.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
I just want to briefly mention man, so I'm on
their website right nowrotavineministriesorg.
It's just under the Aboutsection.
They've got listed their corevalues and some of them are
interesting.
So they've only got uh fivehere and they include personal
accountability to god, mind,body unity, free self-defense
training uh, that's interesting.
(17:52):
Building christ-centeredfamilies living for the sake of
others and defending our family,neighbor and god's kingdom
through the biblical word of godand self-defense culture.
And again, a reference torevelation 19, as we said
earlier.
But some of those buildingchrist-defense culture.
And again a reference toRevelation 19, as we said
earlier, but some of thosebuilding Christ-centered
families.
I can get around that, livingfor the sake of others.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
That's a very Christ-like way to live Personal
accountability to God.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
I think again it's the mind-body unity through
self-defense and the biblicalword of God and self-defense
culture that we might take issuewith.
Yeah, and I think, if you teasethat out, a little word of.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
God and self-defense culture that we might take issue
with.
Yeah, and I think if you teasethat out a little bit, it does
become a militant ideology atits heart and it's an advocacy
for violence essentially.
If that comes, you know, ifpush comes to shove, that's what
it is.
You know that's what you'regoing to get.
There's going to be ajustification for that, sure, as
there always is with thesekinds of things, but you're
(18:47):
dealing with an incitement toarmed resistance, so you're
going to have a naturalanti-authoritarian government
approach.
You're going to have this callto resist if anything were to
happen.
For the large part, obviously,they're going to have ties with
right-wing politics etc.
But for the most part, I don'tknow about you.
(19:09):
I don't know if I've heardstories or not, but they haven't
actually used.
I know that Pastor Sean Moonwas at a Trump rally.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
He was actually present at the 6th of January.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
Oh, is that, oh, sorry.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
They had a bit of a well no, I'm sure there would
have been Trump rallies as well,but some members of the group
were involved in the Nazis'capital attack on the 6th of
January.
So, yeah, they've had apresence in that sense for sure.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
Yeah, so there is some sort of incitement against
sort of an anti-authoritarian,but for the most part I guess,
like there hasn't been a, therehasn't been government resistant
as much yet for any sort ofprovoking of those guns to
actually take place.
But you're right, there is aculture of self-defense there,
some Christian self-defense.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
And we're getting into the classic argument of the
intersection between faith andpolitics, aren't we?
Yeah, I mean, books have beenwritten about it and people have
been thinking about this for along time.
I'm sure Calvin's written stuffon civil government.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
I think that Augustine's like justification
for war, not that that's.
I mean you could twist it in away to fit this Sure, but yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
Yeah, so it's just interesting in terms of how they
take it to be, as in, they cantake up and bear up arms and
they can defend themselves, inlight of certain scriptures that
do seem to be not commandingthat.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
Yeah, maybe to play the devil's advocate.
Would it be okay for aChristian to say, for instance,
a thief comes in your homeviolently, starts becoming
physical with family maybe it'sa wife or kids or something of
that nature Would it be rightfor a Christian in that scenario
(21:11):
?
Because I've heard twodifferent arguments here.
I've heard almost the martyrdomargument or the pacifistic
argument.
Sure, I believe, john Piper,you know somebody that I love to
listen from time to time, butnot too much, because you know I
feel guilty.
Yeah, your Catholic convictionscome from that.
(21:32):
Yeah, that's right, yeah,correct.
But you know, I think that'sthe side that John Piper would
lean on, the sort of pacifisticapproach, Sure, and he actually
mentioned he would never haveguns at his church, Right, so
that's just not Christian in itsideal.
But just to again, you know,glean back to that example would
(21:53):
it be okay for somebody todefend their family in this
situation of, say, you knowsomebody coming in and taking
away, you know stealing things,maybe physically harming someone
?
Speaker 2 (22:03):
I think you can certainly provide a
justification for that, morethan what they seem to be
advocating, where they seem tobe advocating for self-defense
when their rights are beingobstructed, which seems a bit
problematic, because, well, itdepends what kind of rites we're
talking about.
I mean, you know, we know inScripture the commands pertain
(22:27):
to.
If we're commanded to do thingsthat contradict Scripture, we
shouldn't participate inwhatever that might be the case.
You think of the example ofDaniel oh, sorry, daniel's three
friends in the book of Danielwhen they come out to worship
the idol?
Speaker 1 (22:42):
Yes, they obviously refuse to do that.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
So if we, as Christians are directly
commanded to do something by thegovernment that contradicts
scripture, the Bible supersedesthe government in that sense.
So I think in the example youprovided, where our lives are
being threatened, I think therewouldn't necessarily be an issue
(23:09):
with self-defense.
I think there's probablyexamples with Rod of Iron,
though, where they're saying,maybe I'm just using this as an
example maybe the vaccines orwhatever the case may be, and
I'm not saying like, your ownmatters of conscience pertaining
to the vaccine isn't kind ofthe issue here, so much as what
it states in Scripture.
(23:30):
Yeah, and obviously youshouldn't go against your
conscience.
I'm not saying that at all,yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
Well, it seems to me like the early church if we're
looking at the early church asan example, which we should, by
the way, look into that it seemslike martyrdom was more
accepted as the Christian ethos,undoubtedly Than self-defense.
Than self-defense, yes, youknow, christians willingly
(23:57):
giving themselves over to thestate and government for
whatever punishment.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
And, in fact, it was a witness to the validity and
the veracity of what theybelieved, wasn't it?
That's exactly right.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
Well, that's what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
Like you said, they were willing to die for their
faith, which a lot of otherbelief systems around the world
people wouldn't.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
Correct, correct.
And in fact, what did I say?
Speaker 2 (24:20):
The martyrdom is the seed of the blood of the martyrs
, is the seed of the church,exactly, and Christianity
thrives when it's underpersecution, like that
Undoubtedly and unique in thatsense almost amongst the world
religions, you can say somethinglike Islam, which is spread by
the sword, much more violent inits origins.
So I think Christianity canhold on to that.
(24:40):
So I think what Rod of Iron'sdoing, people like Moon is like
you're saying.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
It plays into that heavy eschatological idea, right
?
Speaker 2 (24:47):
Yeah, exactly, they have to focus on that man, and
that's why there's.
No, it's hard.
I mean there might be astatement of faith on the
website.
Like you said, it's hard tofind.
Yeah, that's right, they'remuch clearer about their
approach to, maybe governmenthierarchy or government tyranny,
and that's kind of what theSecond Amendment's tying into
(25:08):
against the authoritarianregimes.
Yeah, they seem much morefocused on that than actually
being willing to die for theirfaith, being willing to die for
the sake of the cross.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
Yeah, yeah, that's right, and that's something I
would actually ask any of thefollowers, and perhaps Pastor
Sean Moon himself is that, whatare some things that you are
willing to die for and not takeup arms and not defend yourself,
you know?
Going back to the example thatwe gave, yes, I think, in
(25:37):
certain circumstances whereyou're looking at a thief coming
in, of course I think that'sfine within reason and you can
make a justification for that.
Yes.
But yeah, if you're talkingabout ushering down God's
kingdom here on earth by way ofrights, I just I'm not sure.
(26:04):
First of all, I don't know if itadheres to traditional
Christianity in the sense ofchurch history.
You know, if you're looking at,you know the martyrs, and I
mean I guess people could say,you know what about the Crusades
?
I mean, look, there is a goodargument, all right, that why
the Crusades were necessary, butalas, I will not be giving that
(26:29):
.
I'm sure you're curious to findout.
But you know, aside from theCrusades, you know, most of
Christian history typicallyfollows this line of martyrdom
where it's better to die, it'sbetter to give your life over
rather than it is to defendyourself.
And that's not only in churchhistory, that's also in
(26:53):
Scripture, that's in the Bible.
That's the immediate response,isn't it?
Well, you look at even thedisciples.
They really gave themselves upover to be killed and martyred
and I find it hard to believethat they would call the church
and call their disciples todefend him.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
It's true, isn't it?
By tradition, Peter wasmartyred, paul was martyred.
So yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
So it's interesting because you are really dealing
with a tricky, seeminglydichotomy here, because, whilst
it's interesting because you arereally dealing with a tricky,
it's seemingly dichotomy here,but set it up like here and now,
which is an interestingworldview, and it actually ties
(27:48):
into the whole Mooney'sworldview as well, where they
see the Messiah as an incompletework and so therefore, we have
to go ahead and march forwardand complete that incomplete
work that Christ did as anexample, example per se.
So, yeah, that is a.
It also fosters this idea of anemphasis on us versus them,
(28:12):
undoubtedly and also which isnot necessarily true it fosters
this idea of like, oh, it's usversus them, it's us versus us,
it's us versus us, we're theenemy here, my own flesh is the
enemy here and it calls intoquestion, even when they're
referring to the us and them, Idon't think they're just
(28:34):
referring to the Christian worldand those who are redeemed by
the blood of Christ and thoseoutside, as in just the secular
world at large.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
I guess it seems much more tied to their political
affiliation with right-wingAmerican politics and it doesn't
really make much scope forthose American Christians who
might lean politically left, whomight vote.
Democrats who tend not to agreewith their ideas about
(29:06):
traditional families or law andorder, in particular the police
and how they act towardscriminals maybe, or maybe even
issues like abortion, I don'tknow, it just seems to be.
There doesn't seem to be muchsupport there for people who
don't necessarily hold to theirpolitical views.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
Yeah, yeah.
I'm always wary with churcheswhen it comes to trying to align
themselves on a political side.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
And they do this a lot, man.
I mean you look at some of therallies that they've been
holding.
Well, they've got rallies andevents that they hold A lot of
quite prominent right-wingfigures as well.
People like Sebastian Gorkahave attended this, michael
Flynn, who was in the Trumpadministration previously was
quite involved.
He was his former nationalsecurity advisor so he attended
(29:53):
the 2024 October so just a fewmonths ago, rod of Iron Freedom
Festival.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
And again there were lots of threats made, just kind
of ostensibly, to Trump'sopponents that if he would lose
the election again, there wouldbe some kind of retribution
involved.
So, and you know there's some.
The rhetoric isn't veryChristian, it's not, no, not
particularly.
And there's a deep state targetlist apparently.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
Yeah, yeah, so a lot of it's not no not particularly.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
There's a deep state target list apparently.
Yeah, yeah, a lot of it's notoverly pleasant.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
I mean where you side on politics, you know, is your
personal view and that's fine,like where you position yourself
whether you're conservative orprogressive.
You know that's not the pointhere.
The point is when you start totie in faith in that equation,
you start to tie in faith in thesense of the kingdom here
(30:49):
rather than the kingdom that isto come.
You start to tie up your faithin worldly affairs rather than
godly affairs.
You start to tie up things inthe here and now rather than
whatly affairs you know.
You start to tie up things youknow in the here and now rather
than what is you know to come.
And so that makes aninteresting point when faith
(31:09):
becomes an integral part ofpolitics, whereby your church
you know, for example, if youhad somebody who disagreed come
to your church on maybe the gunsright issue or maybe any other
issue that the church has astrong stance against.
It would be a shame that thatperson would have to leave that
(31:36):
church.
That's why they took away.
Yeah, because it'd be like well, let's focus on gospel here,
let's focus on not whatpolitical affiliation you are
Not trying to divide.
Right let's focus on Christianlove charity.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
Which can be done.
I've come across ministers whohold very strong political views
and actually you know they'repreviously involved in parties
in the past and things of thisnature.
But you know, when they get upat the pulpit each Sunday, they
can preach and they can leavepolitical issues aside.
That's right.
Maybe I don't know issues likeabortion, because that's spoken
(32:11):
against in Scripture.
They might speak out against,but they're not going to get up
there and just condemn the otherside of the political wing
based upon their own kind ofpersonal beliefs.
I think that's the difference,yeah that's right.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
Like you're saying, you can hold these political
beliefs close to you personally,but that doesn't mean you then
go and condemn the other view orthat you uphold this view as
being superior or morescriptural.
When there is evidence,particularly pertaining to the
Second Amendment and the use ofguns, there doesn't seem to be
(32:46):
evidence from scripture thatthat's a morally superior thing
to do.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
Right, right, I'm always intrigued.
There seems to be, in myopinion, to be cult-like
practices that are happeningwithin the World of Iron
Ministries, and there seems tobe some reverence given to
Pastor Sean Moon.
So a lot of activity issurrounded by Pastor Sean Moon's
(33:16):
ideas.
I would like to know thehierarchy of how that church is
structured Like.
Is there a board of elders?
I'm imagining there isn't, butagain, it's hard to find.
What exactly is the structureof that church?
But I'm guessing Pastor SeanMoon would not only be the
pastor, he'd be the head, and alot of his ideas would be
filtered into the community.
And so, with that being said, Iwonder how all you know who
(33:40):
grow up in that community startpracticing self-defense and
self-training with weapons, youreckon?
Speaker 2 (33:48):
it'd be fairly earlier on, wouldn't it?
I mean, yeah, the problem foryou and me, man, I feel like as
well as we're quite detachedfrom this culture, I mean, even
when we were talking about thesnake biting churches like we
have snakes in australia.
We can understand that whateverand like the practice of doing
that, but the problem with gunsis like we're in a culture where
it's just not a thing, you knowyou it's, it's rare to meet
(34:10):
people.
I mean, I'm from a country town,so I knew a few people that had
guns, but for the most partpeople don't, whereas they're
much more commonplace in the usand therefore and acceptable so
therefore, children would have alot more exposure to parents,
with guns and guns beingcommonplace, particularly in, I
guess, southern states of the US.
Yeah, so yeah, but it begs thequestion again, you know, if
(34:34):
you're wanting a gun to defendyour family I disagree with John
Piper here.
I actually think that's okay.
Yeah, I think you know there'swarrant for that, for protecting
your family.
But yeah, I mean, again, it'scoming back to their motivation
seems, I guess, more politicalthan scriptural.
Yeah, so that's where we takeUmbridge, I guess.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, it certainly does, whenyou know your website barely
states what your core beliefsare, but it certainly states
what your political affiliationsand alignments are.
Speaker 2 (35:08):
I mean, you even look at the section where they call
it Gather under their websiteRight, and you know they
advertise when their Sundayservice is Yep, but then they're
also advertising all thevarious rallies and they also
seem to be advocating for youknow, gun classes and gun
(35:28):
training, and there never seemsto be too much disparity there.
Speaker 1 (35:35):
Yeah, that's right.
Yeah Well, I would just, youknow, maybe put a little bit of,
you know, provocative thoughthere.
You know how far do you need togo before something becomes
extreme?
You know, like, how far doessay the church that Pastor, Sean
(35:57):
Moon, pastors?
You know how far would it bebefore you see an all-out
resistance?
You know, because it begs thequestion, they have lots of guns
, they're prepared, they'reready.
So what is it?
You know what is the catalystthat's going to happen in order
(36:18):
for them to actually go aboutand use these guns, because at
the moment they're just usingfor self-defense training is it
one presidential assassinationaway?
Speaker 2 (36:26):
dare I say, right, right, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
So we have these guns , we have these ammunitions,
we've got a community here, um,you know what's it going to be
before we actually enact thevery things that we stand for.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
Because, you're right , there does seem to be a lot of
posturing associated with it.
They seem quite provocative.
Well, the rhetoric seems to beit's there, isn't it?
But they don't seem to act uponit as often as what they seem
to.
Yeah, and maybe that's aconcerning thing.
Radicalising, and I mean, look,this isn't to single out
right-wing politics.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
This is prevalent on the left as well.
Speaker 2 (37:01):
I think what you're saying, though, is correct.
It's like what tips them overthe edge with all this rhetoric,
and that's why this rhetoric isincreasingly problematic.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
I mean, you know, we look at Donald Trump being
re-elected.
Maybe, if that never happened,who?
Speaker 2 (37:18):
knows.
Well, there were the threats,there weren't there.
Yeah, that's right From peoplelike Flynn and a few others at
the rally in 2024.
I mean, they're obviouslyconcerned about the validity of
the previous election with thatin mind, but yeah, it does beg
the question if he wasn'telected, would that have been
the tipping point for them toact upon it?
Speaker 1 (37:40):
It certainly is food for thought in that sense.
But yeah, I don't know, againhard to find exactly what their
core beliefs are.
But if we're going off theMooney's Unification Church
teachings from his father and Ibelieve there is crossover there
, there definitely is layersthat are practiced in that
(38:02):
church Then I'm not confidentpurely on a theological basis.
To, you know, like the wholeidea of marriage becoming the,
you know, offsets, inherited sin.
It's interesting how it'sinherited sin.
I want to look into that, notenough time.
But you know, son, the fatherof Sean being the current
(38:28):
Messiah who's completing theincomplete work of Christ, these
kind of things.
You know, this is a veryrestoration, restorationist um
movement, or church, call itwhat you will seems to me to be
the real red flag.
Not necessarily the guns,although the guns do play a part
(38:50):
in this in this case that's.
That's again, assuming thatthat's what they actually
believe.
Speaker 2 (38:54):
you bang on because you think it.
What's brought them to thebelief that they can use guns in
this way?
What's the motivation behind it?
I think the guns is kind ofauxiliary to the main problem.
Correct, yes, which is yeah,they're like we said High
eschatology.
Restorationist.
Speaker 1 (39:09):
Restorationist view.
Yep Kingdom is here and now andwe need to fight for that, so
let's take up arms.
You can kind of see themovement being the slide being
happening here.
So, yeah, we see the obvious,the guns, we see the political
rallies and the gather and allthe media attention that's been
(39:33):
given here and, for the mostpart, I don't think there's
actually any other real scandalthat's associated with this that
I know of.
Are you aware of anything else?
Speaker 2 (39:46):
Because it seems to be like there's no abuse With
the Moon family in particular.
Speaker 1 (39:49):
Well, no, not with the Moon family, but with the
Rod of Iron Ministries.
Oh sure, there seems to benothing else Outside of the
rallies and yeah, no, no, um,for the most part they're pretty
, pretty wholesome, in the sensethat you know there's no
reports that I know of of abuseor anything like that.
So it's not like you knowthere's anything really else
happening except for the gunsthat's the only thing.
That's really yeah, yeah onlyyeah, wow, that we know of.
(40:12):
Yeah, um, but yeah, that'sthat's where my mind is.
It's like, okay, how did youcome to this?
Yes, it's this interpretation,but there's some crossover
coming from somewhere, fromtheir doctrine, from their
beliefs.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
From their understanding of the Bible.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:27):
So that's where I would, maybe you know, point out
that the real concern may be,but it'll be interesting to see
if any of our followers orlisteners know anyone that's a
part of that community or haveexperienced one of their
services.
I've seen that video wheretheir services are like they
have like guns and they, youknow, being Australian, you
(40:51):
mentioned it.
It's kind of like you know abit concerning yeah.
With, like you know, say 100people in a church with guns.
They all better have theirsafety on you know, because boy
oh boy.
Speaker 2 (41:04):
Not going to end well is it no?
I mean Friendly fire.
Speaker 1 (41:09):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I guess if you're going intocause like that's a church, you
wouldn't want to cause anyissues with no no start like
rebuking pastor sean moon rightthere, and then you.
You might get some fire.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
Yeah, I don't know how many uh cheeks will be
turned yeah yeah, I might be adifferent response yeah, that's
something you wouldn.
Speaker 1 (41:36):
That's something you wouldn't want to mess with them.
You wouldn't want to test them,would you?
No, you wouldn't, you wouldn'tespecially nowadays, of course.
You definitely wouldn't want totest them.
But, yeah, it'd be interestingto know if any of our followers
have experienced any of thecommunities that are involved
with the Rod of Iron Ministries.
We're going to wrap up here alittle bit now, but I have to
(42:00):
present the question becausethat's what we're doing here at
the Church Review Podcast and weI don't know where Sam stands
on this issue, but again, weneed a Jesus bobblehead.
So if you're out there, pleasesend us one to see if he would
approve or just nod his head inshame.
Do you think Jesus wouldapprove of this church?
Speaker 2 (42:27):
Jesse, I hate to say it, man, I think there will be a
shaking of the head with this.
Speaker 1 (42:30):
Okay, not because of the guns Okay.
Speaker 2 (42:32):
Not because of some of the stuff about family values
is very good.
I think we've got to come backto the core beliefs and their
understanding of the fall,original sin doctrine of
humanity.
We discussed it earlier.
Concerning the restoration ofstuff, christ's death wasn't
enough.
Their high eschatology seems towhich is not necessarily a
(42:59):
salvation issue but it seems tocome out of their restorationist
beliefs is concerning, andtheir understanding of God and
their understanding of theatonement makes us a church.
I'd struggle to see how Christwould approve of this.
I could be wrong, but justgoing off of those beliefs that
(43:22):
they hold to, I think you'dstruggle to make a case for them
.
Speaker 1 (43:31):
Yeah, correct that.
The assumptions that we'vementioned here on the episode of
them believing a lot of whatthe Moonies believe, a lot of
what the Unification Churchbelieves, is probably what they
believe as well.
So if that's true, then I agreewith you.
I think Jesus would nod hishead sadly.
Speaker 2 (43:51):
And you want to make concessions, don't you?
But it's difficult to when theyhold those beliefs, and then
Moon himself being the Messiah,I mean that's really problematic
.
Speaker 1 (44:04):
Yeah, that's correct.
I think in essence, the Rod ofIron Ministries, the Sanctuary
Church, whatever otherabbreviations that are added
there, I'm just calling it theSanctuary Church because it's
shorter.
I think they see it as like adivine mandate for believers to
actually combine their faithwith action, in the sense that
(44:26):
you know this whole culture ofself-defense, using firearms as
a means to protect and enforcethe values of God's kingdom.
I just don't see that asbiblical, I don't see that as
Christian.
I see the opposite.
Actually, if we look at earlychurch, as we mentioned, I see
martyrdom.
(44:46):
I see Jesus encouraging hisbelievers not to take up arms.
Speaker 2 (44:53):
I see a kingdom here, a worldly kingdom, kingdom that
we ought not to fight for sense, but certainly the majority of
christendom would say yeah, thecrusades, a lot of the wars
(45:20):
surrounding the reformation, the30 years war, yeah, uh, the
saint bala follow me today,massacre whatever it is.
The war.
You know the disputes betweencatholics and protestants
throughout history, right, uh,people don't think they're good
things as christians yeah,people don't think they're
taking things as Christians.
Yeah, people don't think thattaking up arms and being hostile
and aggressive is good and itdoes seem, as we said earlier,
(45:41):
antithetical to the teachings ofChrist.
Speaker 1 (45:43):
Correct.
Yeah, no 100%, and it seemslike this ministry here seems to
do the opposite.
In my opinion, I would agree.
Yeah, so, with that said, isthere any like?
Because I want our followers,because we have a fair few
actually I want our followers tomaybe not only pitch their two
(46:04):
cents, maybe comment and follow,and all the yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:07):
If you disagree with us, go for it.
Yeah, absolutely I've talked topeople actually in my own life
that would disagree with me onthis, undoubtedly.
Speaker 1 (46:14):
Yeah, no, we encourage that actually.
That's, that's something that,um, yeah, that would that we
want, uh, because it makes forgood conversation.
You know, around the table andI think, um, uh, if there was,
you know, if you were to leave areview, if you were to leave a
review on, you know, googlereviews, or you know I would, I
(46:35):
would love to like call, but youknow that's just not happening.
You know, come on, we're guysfrom western australia, you know
that that's.
Speaker 2 (46:41):
We only just got power 10 years ago.
Yeah but?
Speaker 1 (46:43):
but if you look, if you look at the google review
maps, you will see the responsetime on some of those google
reviews from whoever's whoever'syou know, taking care of the,
the, whatever, the social aspectof the church is pretty quick.
It's actually really quick.
There'll be a review within oneto two weeks and within a week
(47:06):
or two there'll be a response.
Speaker 2 (47:07):
So that's pretty good .
Speaker 1 (47:08):
But if you were to leave a review, I think the
Snakebiting Church hashtag Freethe Snakes was awesome.
I would encourage all of ourlisteners to do that, because
this is how we're going to buildour community.
We're going to be a force to bereckoned with, but not in the
not in their mooney sense.
We'll get the guns in thecabinet yes, we will fight with
(47:29):
our words, not with our firearms, because we've got none here in
australia.
So there you go, um, but yeah,if you had to leave a review
hashtag, what are you leaving?
Is there something that wecould leave with, maybe for our
followers and listeners to maybefollow up on?
Speaker 2 (47:42):
Oh, like a little catchy.
Speaker 1 (47:44):
Yeah, I mean the hashtag free the snakes was
really cool.
I got a lot of good love heartemojis and a lot of good
feedback from that.
So hashtag, keep the gun in thecase.
I like it.
Speaker 2 (47:59):
Yeah, for some reason I was thinking of doing
something with the SecondAmendment, but that's just not
very catchy, I think.
Keep the guns in the case,because you think about it in
contrast to us.
We've freed the snakes, butwe're also keeping the guns in.
We're quite balanced here onthe church.
Speaker 1 (48:18):
We certainly are.
Okay, we'll do that.
Keep the guns.
Keep the guns in the case Bomb.
No, let's not use thatterminology, Unless someone has
broken into your house.
Oh, sure, sure, sure, there areexceptions.
We're sorry.
We do apologise if thathappened.
We are not liable for anythingthat was said on the podcast
(48:40):
show.
Okay, we have lawyers.
Jesus is our lawyer.
Okay, you cannot argue againsthim Romans 13.
He was also a high priest aswell.
But yes, I think we'll leave itat that and we'll go ahead and
yeah, we'll call that a callthat a wrap.
Uh, thank you for listeninghere at the church review
(49:00):
podcast.
As always, we do appreciate thefeedback.
So if you haven't alreadyfollow us on the socials
instagram, church review podcastone word church review on the x
and facebook.
And uh, thank you again, sam, asalways, for your pleasure, as
always brother, good to see you,you too, and I know that you're
not going to be in for the nextepisode.
Oh no, sorry, no, I'm not 100%sure on that.
Speaker 2 (49:23):
We'll see what happens?
Speaker 1 (49:25):
Correct, yeah, so, but in the meantime, thank you
for listening, as always.
Do you know the outro Sam?
Speaker 2 (49:33):
Because if you don't, I'm happy to share it.
Oh, I forgot already.
Stay Churched, stay True.
Close.
I put it in the wrong order,haven't I?
Speaker 1 (49:39):
All right, I'll do it here.
Stay, yeah.
That's okay, though, becauseyou know, work in progress, work
in progress.
We'll get you up to speed verysoon.
No, it's Stay True, stayRelevant, stay Churched here at
the Church Review Podcast.
We appreciate it and thanks forlistening.
Welcome back to the Church Review Podcast.
It's good to be back.
I am your host, jesse Graham.
I'm joined with my co-host, samCharles, and we've got an
interesting episode ahead.
Some say we have a blast of anepisode.
Yep, that's right.
We certainly do.
(00:35):
We are looking at the Rod ofEye Ministries, known as the
Sanctuary Church, but most of uswould know them as a gun-toting
freedom-fighting church in theUnited States and look forward
to the episode.
So, if you tuned in, thank youfor listening and we hope we can
(00:58):
provide here at the ChurchReview Podcast.
Sam Jesse, welcome again to thepodcast.
Glad to have you on.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Thanks, brother, good to be here.
And look, this is a.
We're looking at a sort of it'salmost like a.
They call this a Rod of IronMinistries because it is a
church, but they also they coverlots of different kind of
facets relating to culture andthat kind of thing today, don't
they?
You know, I think we're alreadykind of seeing a theme,
actually, man, with some ofthese churches where there seems
(01:29):
to be sort of a bit of familydysfunction, a bit of disunity.
You know, people don't seem tobe getting along.
I've been reading Jane Eyrelately, actually, jane Eyre.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Jane.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Eyre, yeah, a bit of a classic, but yeah, there's a
lot of family dysfunction inthis church.
We're looking at today, solooking forward to it.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Just quickly a shout out to oneof the followers who have been
listening into the podcast whoactually mentioned the episode
we did on snakebiting that firstepisode I believe it was.
He actually made a point therethat there are Trinitarian and
non-Trinitarian snakebitingchurches.
(02:07):
So I just thought I'd mentionthat.
Didn't grab his name, but I'lldefinitely reply to him and give
him a heads up and a thank you.
But I've actually made a Googlereview.
You can actually see it on anyof the churches we covered,
hashtag free the snakes.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
I feel like we almost have to review it again, don't
we?
There's Trinitarian andnon-Trinitarian.
It sort of makes it a bit moreclear.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
I think that would be handy, nodoubt.
But moving on, rod of IronMinistries, founded by Pastor
Sean Moon, and you mentioned,there's some family divide going
here.
Son of Reverend Sun Myung Moon.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
Yeah, so Sun Myung Moon.
As you mentioned, heestablished the Unification
Church in Seoul in South Koreain 1954.
He died in 2012,.
So he was at the helm for quitea few years.
So he was at the helm for quitea few years, yes, but then,
sort of about a year after hedied, his son and his wife had a
(03:10):
dispute and eventually that ledto the son, sean Moon,
establishing the UnificationChurch, or should I say, an
offshoot of the UnificationChurch, called the World Peace
and Unification Sanctuary Church.
Yeah, that's a mouthful.
And not only did they have a bitof a.
(03:30):
You know, he established hisown church in the US as opposed
to South Korea.
Right, he went on to state thathis mother is the whore of
Babylon, as seen in Revelation17.
So yeah, I don't think theywere sending each other
Christmas cards or anything.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
No no.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Not a happy Christmas at the Moons anyway.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
No, no doubt about it .
Wow, that's news to me.
Yeah, so I think it was founded2017, I believe by Sean Moon
over there in the United States.
I think he's actually got adegree at Harvard, united States
.
I think he's actually got adegree at Harvard, so I believe
that his father wanted him to bethe heir of the Unification
Church of the Moonies iscommonly known nickname
(04:11):
quotations Moonies but obviouslythey're doing their own thing
now, pastor Sean Moon and hiswife.
They are headquartered, Ibelieve, in Pennsylvania, but
that might be moving.
I'm hearing news that might bemoving to Waco, texas.
Yeah, and they've got someproperty in Tennessee as well,
so yeah, yeah, waco Texas justhas a history, so I'm just
(04:37):
pointing that out everyone.
There's a pattern showing here.
Now they're commonly well-known, I guess, and that's not only
the media attention, but they'rewell-known for a church that
actually interprets a certainpassage of Scripture, that's
Revelation 19.15, the rod ofiron, to mean well as weapons,
(04:57):
as guns.
So they're quite a heavy on gunchurch.
They worship, they practice,they do their whole service with
guns and there is a strong sortof Christian self-defense I
don't know if you want to callit ethics that's involved here
(05:18):
and I think that's what makesthem distinctively unique from a
lot of other churches is thatthey do, you know, they're not
afraid to show their guns, butalso in worship, in service,
actually have those guns withthem everywhere they go.
So that makes that distinct,yeah, that makes that very
distinct from a lot ofmainstream churches.
(05:40):
Now the Revelation 191515passage.
Are you aware of the passage?
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Yeah, it's another one you're talking about, and
it's quoted earlier on inRevelation as well.
Revelation, chapter 2, verse 27.
So he ruled them with an ironscepter.
He would dash them to pieceslike pottery.
It's actually quoted from theOld Testament.
It's from Psalm 2, verse 9,that they're, uh, referring to
(06:07):
but yeah again man, similar tothe snake biting churches where
they've kind of they've honed inon one verse specifically
without considering the whole ofbiblical testimony.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
So, yeah, maybe a bit to unpack there, but yeah well,
if it's a revelation 1915, Ibelieve that's a book that's has
a high use of apocalyptic genre.
Yes, so you're going to get alot of symbolism.
You're going to get a lot ofallegories used, metaphors, no
doubt, but if we're talkingabout the rod of iron, it seems
(06:40):
like Pastor Sean Moon hasinterpreted that to mean a
weapon of some sort, and in thiscase, ar-15 seems to be the
choice.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
There's a particular emphasis on guns, isn't there?
Speaker 1 (06:46):
yeah, right undoubtedly um, and so, yeah, I,
I guess they're you know, andnot not even looking at uh sort
of the context, because, youknow, if we're looking at the
apostle john, I believe, is theauthor here writing, writing
revelation here.
I don't think he has, I don'tthink he has the AR-15 in mind
here.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
Yeah, I certainly don't think that was what he
originally intended.
Right, right.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
I mean we could substitute it for a spear.
Is that what he's talking here?
But even then I'd be treadingvery carefully when we're
looking at Revelation toextrapolate doctrine.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
Yeah, and it'd be interesting to chat to Moon how
in his exegesis he came to thatconclusion, because he's
obviously some kind of he's apastor.
I don't know in terms ofaccreditation or whatever, but
obviously you know that's howhe's interpreted that passage
and yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
So just a little backdrop.
Then, going into some of thecore beliefs, A lot of what the
Rod of Iron Ministries and Iguess, the Sanctuary Church
would believe would be acrossover to the Moonies, the
Unification Church you mentionedearlier in the podcast, and so
a lot of those beliefs would bethe divine principle, which is
(08:03):
sort of this foundationalteaching of the Mooney Church.
It's kind of like aninterpretation of scripture.
Another core belief would bethe emphasis on God's
characteristics being feminineand masculine.
So there's that dualism there.
One which I kind of am a littlebit suspicious on is their
(08:25):
interpretation of the four.
Are you aware of how theyinterpret the four?
I'm not.
No, so the mainstream Christianargument is that it's caused by
disobedience to God's word, andI think unanimously across the
(08:45):
Christian spectrum here we wouldagree.
There they interpret it to meanhave a sexual fall.
So it somewhat strays away fromthe traditional Christian
worldview in that sense, whichis quite interesting if you're
looking at it like that, whichis quite interesting if you're
looking at it like that.
And so the way to go aboutreconciling us back to God or in
(09:11):
this way, reconciling humanityback to its true condition,
which was perfect in the gardenis through these marriage and
blessing ceremonies that they do.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
Yes, you know the one where they.
That's how they tie in.
Yeah, I had been looking at hismarriage and blessing
ceremonies and I was like,interesting, but yeah, that
makes a lot more sense.
Yeah, pertaining to thedoctrine of humanity.
Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
Yeah, so that kind of offsets.
Your inherited sin is bygetting married and usually
you're matched by the churchwithout any prior contact with
the other.
So does that mean in a sense,that they diminish the
significance of original sin.
I don't know where they wouldstand on the adoption of
original sin.
I would think they would have aconcept of original sin of
(09:55):
sorts, with more emphasis on thefalling kind of sexually into
sin.
But marriage becomes the vehicleby which that is fixed Right.
Marriage becomes the vehicle bywhich that is fixed Right, not,
you know, the atonement, notthe Jesus you know being that
sort of mechanism, and it flowsinto this.
Next core belief here that I'vegot is that, because it's a
(10:17):
restorationist faith, theUnification Church and you know,
apologies, I'm just bringingsome context here because you
know we could do a separateepisode on the Moonies
altogether, but it's justgetting some layers here because
it's potentially what you know,pastor Sean Moon and a lot of
his churches, a lot of hischurch, actually believes here,
(10:39):
but it's a restorationist church.
They see Christ as his work onthe cross as unfinished, and so
therefore, the Messiah, thecurrent Messiah, is the head of
the church, which is Son MyungMoon Try not to butcher that
name and so he essentially isthe Messiah present day, and so
(11:04):
through him completing the workthat Jesus failed on the cross,
there is a sense of universalsalvation, which is another core
belief, and that way is madethrough marriage.
Anyway, long-winded all that, tosay that potentially this is
what Pastor Sean Moon at the Rodof Iron Ministries may believe.
Any thoughts on that, sam Well?
Speaker 2 (11:29):
slightly concerning, actually, to be honest, Some of
those beliefs you just outlinedthere, particularly, you know.
I mean the stuff about himbeing some kind of messianic
figure.
I had read up about that.
I mean, that's concerning inand of itself, right, but I
hadn't heard about the universalsalvation stuff.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
So that's always a bit alarming as well.
Yeah, from a doctrinal point ofview, yeah, that's right.
That would be my thoughtsmainly.
I mean, I don't know, man, whenI was looking into this Rod of
Iron ministry, I was lookinginto this rot of iron ministry.
I seem to get really caught upin their kind of a political
affiliation as much as anything.
I didn't go into their doctrinea lot just because I want to
(12:09):
cover both, so I'm going tosegue into that now.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
Um, so that's just a bit of backdrop on some of the
core beliefs that they may, uh,hold to, but again, it's
slippery because you're dealingwith a an isolated well, you
know, somewhat isolatedcommunity, so it's hard to get a
real grasp of what theyactually believe.
So it's really hard Because Iwent on the website here there's
nothing about really abouttheir core beliefs.
(12:33):
However, they have so muchabout the Second Amendment, the
right to defend oneself,property, etc.
Basically the constitution.
There is even an interpretationon the website there of, or
maybe a petition of, a newconstitution of sorts.
(12:56):
Right?
So when you talk aboutpolitical affiliation, yeah,
you're talking aboutconservative right-wing,
potentially extreme right-wing,but nevertheless you're looking
at a faith here.
You're looking at a churchwhich calls Christians to take
up arms and defend themselves,and I don't you're tying
politics with religion.
(13:17):
At this point, you're tyingfaith with politics, which may
be a slippery slope.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
I think as well, there seems to be a focus on
this future kingdom of God onearth, and maybe that's why
they're not so concerned withreferring to a statement of
faith on their website or kindof their doctrinal issues,
because they're wanting tosupersede that spreading the
(13:44):
gospel for bringing the kingdomon earth in a political sense,
not just merely through sharingand through gospel witness, but
rather through some kind ofpolitical means, which is
interesting when you considerJesus's actions in the Gospels.
He seemed to continually wantto steer away from any kind of
(14:08):
political affiliation.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
Yeah, I mean you look at the perfect scripture there,
john 18, 36,.
My kingdom is not of this world.
If it were, my servants wouldfight.
Which is kind of interesting,because you see the it seems
like a contradiction here,because you see a scripture that
Pastor Sean Moon takesRevelation, but then you see
(14:31):
other points of scripture whereit seems like Jesus is not
steering in that direction.
He's appealing for a higher akingdom.
That is not, a kingdom that isotherly, you know, not worldly A
kingdom where its ethics aredifferent than our ethics.
(14:52):
You know we talk about, youknow, second Amendment.
We talk about gun rights.
We're talking about protection.
Well, we're talking about akingdom that has totally
different ethics from that.
You know what I mean differentethics from that.
You know what I mean.
To stake your faith in aworldly ethics or a worldly even
constitution may be a bridgetoo far.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
I think it is, and as well.
It sort of begs the questionwhy are they so fixated on it?
Because, like you said, we'vegot numerous passages in
Scripture where Jesus says hewho lives with a sword will die
by the sword.
Render unto Caesar what heseizes.
There's a distinction there,and it seems to be.
(15:37):
There's a certain call tononviolence.
Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.
There doesn't seem to be.
You know they're wanting toadvocate, yeah, their Second
Amendment rights, their right tobear arms, their right to
partake in this kind of violence, which seems antithetical to
scriptural witness.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
Yeah, it is, and Christ commands, if you take the
broader scripture, you know, ifyou take, if you look out, zoom
out a bit, you'll see, as youmentioned, scriptures that seem
to offset.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
And again, if you're taking Revelation, then… and
this is where I think there maybe an exception that Moon and I
don't know Men of Zilch, I guesswould advocate that they can,
whether there is kind ofcondoned violence or defense of
their own rights or whatever.
In a sense, when you look at,say I don't know, like
(16:28):
Revelation 20 and there'sreferences to them reigning on
the earth with Christ andthey're taking that as being
kind of a literal 1,000 yearsand, look, this ties into
different interpretations of thebook of Revelation itself and
Scripture as a whole, wherethey're obviously taking some
kind of I mean, you have to havea bit of background in
(16:50):
eschatology to get around thisstuff, but they're obviously
taking a bit more premillennialview.
So, as I said before, there iskind of this thousand-year reign
and maybe that's theirjustification for taking up arms
and for defending their rightsand having these rallies that
they have yeah, yeah, yeah, this, uh, yeah, I would love to.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
Um, you know, I did check out the the website and a
few of the google reviews.
You really you're polarizing alot of christians here because
you have christians that arelike either you know, we're all
for you, and then you have otherchristians where they're like
you're a cult, you know?
Yes, stare away um you knowwe're all for you.
And then you have otherChristians who are like you're a
cult.
You know, stare away.
You know, look for the kingdomthat is to come, not the kingdom
of this world.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
I just want to briefly mention man, so I'm on
their website right nowrotavineministriesorg.
It's just under the Aboutsection.
They've got listed their corevalues and some of them are
interesting.
So they've only got uh fivehere and they include personal
accountability to god, mind,body unity, free self-defense
training uh, that's interesting.
(17:52):
Building christ-centeredfamilies living for the sake of
others and defending our family,neighbor and god's kingdom
through the biblical word of godand self-defense culture.
And again, a reference torevelation 19, as we said
earlier.
But some of those buildingchrist-defense culture.
And again a reference toRevelation 19, as we said
earlier, but some of thosebuilding Christ-centered
families.
I can get around that, livingfor the sake of others.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
That's a very Christ-like way to live Personal
accountability to God.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
I think again it's the mind-body unity through
self-defense and the biblicalword of God and self-defense
culture that we might take issuewith.
Yeah, and I think, if you teasethat out, a little word of.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
God and self-defense culture that we might take issue
with.
Yeah, and I think if you teasethat out a little bit, it does
become a militant ideology atits heart and it's an advocacy
for violence essentially.
If that comes, you know, ifpush comes to shove, that's what
it is.
You know that's what you'regoing to get.
There's going to be ajustification for that, sure, as
there always is with thesekinds of things, but you're
(18:47):
dealing with an incitement toarmed resistance, so you're
going to have a naturalanti-authoritarian government
approach.
You're going to have this callto resist if anything were to
happen.
For the large part, obviously,they're going to have ties with
right-wing politics etc.
But for the most part, I don'tknow about you.
(19:09):
I don't know if I've heardstories or not, but they haven't
actually used.
I know that Pastor Sean Moonwas at a Trump rally.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
He was actually present at the 6th of January.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
Oh, is that, oh, sorry.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
They had a bit of a well no, I'm sure there would
have been Trump rallies as well,but some members of the group
were involved in the Nazis'capital attack on the 6th of
January.
So, yeah, they've had apresence in that sense for sure.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
Yeah, so there is some sort of incitement against
sort of an anti-authoritarian,but for the most part I guess,
like there hasn't been a, therehasn't been government resistant
as much yet for any sort ofprovoking of those guns to
actually take place.
But you're right, there is aculture of self-defense there,
some Christian self-defense.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
And we're getting into the classic argument of the
intersection between faith andpolitics, aren't we?
Yeah, I mean, books have beenwritten about it and people have
been thinking about this for along time.
I'm sure Calvin's written stuffon civil government.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
I think that Augustine's like justification
for war, not that that's.
I mean you could twist it in away to fit this Sure, but yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
Yeah, so it's just interesting in terms of how they
take it to be, as in, they cantake up and bear up arms and
they can defend themselves, inlight of certain scriptures that
do seem to be not commandingthat.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
Yeah, maybe to play the devil's advocate.
Would it be okay for aChristian to say, for instance,
a thief comes in your homeviolently, starts becoming
physical with family maybe it'sa wife or kids or something of
that nature Would it be rightfor a Christian in that scenario
(21:11):
?
Because I've heard twodifferent arguments here.
I've heard almost the martyrdomargument or the pacifistic
argument.
Sure, I believe, john Piper,you know somebody that I love to
listen from time to time, butnot too much, because you know I
feel guilty.
Yeah, your Catholic convictionscome from that.
(21:32):
Yeah, that's right, yeah,correct.
But you know, I think that'sthe side that John Piper would
lean on, the sort of pacifisticapproach, Sure, and he actually
mentioned he would never haveguns at his church, Right, so
that's just not Christian in itsideal.
But just to again, you know,glean back to that example would
(21:53):
it be okay for somebody todefend their family in this
situation of, say, you knowsomebody coming in and taking
away, you know stealing things,maybe physically harming someone
?
Speaker 2 (22:03):
I think you can certainly provide a
justification for that, morethan what they seem to be
advocating, where they seem tobe advocating for self-defense
when their rights are beingobstructed, which seems a bit
problematic, because, well, itdepends what kind of rites we're
talking about.
I mean, you know, we know inScripture the commands pertain
(22:27):
to.
If we're commanded to do thingsthat contradict Scripture, we
shouldn't participate inwhatever that might be the case.
You think of the example ofDaniel oh, sorry, daniel's three
friends in the book of Danielwhen they come out to worship
the idol?
Speaker 1 (22:42):
Yes, they obviously refuse to do that.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
So if we, as Christians are directly
commanded to do something by thegovernment that contradicts
scripture, the Bible supersedesthe government in that sense.
So I think in the example youprovided, where our lives are
being threatened, I think therewouldn't necessarily be an issue
(23:09):
with self-defense.
I think there's probablyexamples with Rod of Iron,
though, where they're saying,maybe I'm just using this as an
example maybe the vaccines orwhatever the case may be, and
I'm not saying like, your ownmatters of conscience pertaining
to the vaccine isn't kind ofthe issue here, so much as what
it states in Scripture.
(23:30):
Yeah, and obviously youshouldn't go against your
conscience.
I'm not saying that at all,yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
Well, it seems to me like the early church if we're
looking at the early church asan example, which we should, by
the way, look into that it seemslike martyrdom was more
accepted as the Christian ethos,undoubtedly Than self-defense.
Than self-defense, yes, youknow, christians willingly
(23:57):
giving themselves over to thestate and government for
whatever punishment.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
And, in fact, it was a witness to the validity and
the veracity of what theybelieved, wasn't it?
That's exactly right.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
Well, that's what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
Like you said, they were willing to die for their
faith, which a lot of otherbelief systems around the world
people wouldn't.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
Correct, correct.
And in fact, what did I say?
Speaker 2 (24:20):
The martyrdom is the seed of the blood of the martyrs
, is the seed of the church,exactly, and Christianity
thrives when it's underpersecution, like that
Undoubtedly and unique in thatsense almost amongst the world
religions, you can say somethinglike Islam, which is spread by
the sword, much more violent inits origins.
So I think Christianity canhold on to that.
(24:40):
So I think what Rod of Iron'sdoing, people like Moon is like
you're saying.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
It plays into that heavy eschatological idea, right
?
Speaker 2 (24:47):
Yeah, exactly, they have to focus on that man, and
that's why there's.
No, it's hard.
I mean there might be astatement of faith on the
website.
Like you said, it's hard tofind.
Yeah, that's right, they'remuch clearer about their
approach to, maybe governmenthierarchy or government tyranny,
and that's kind of what theSecond Amendment's tying into
(25:08):
against the authoritarianregimes.
Yeah, they seem much morefocused on that than actually
being willing to die for theirfaith, being willing to die for
the sake of the cross.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
Yeah, yeah, that's right, and that's something I
would actually ask any of thefollowers, and perhaps Pastor
Sean Moon himself is that, whatare some things that you are
willing to die for and not takeup arms and not defend yourself,
you know?
Going back to the example thatwe gave, yes, I think, in
(25:37):
certain circumstances whereyou're looking at a thief coming
in, of course I think that'sfine within reason and you can
make a justification for that.
Yes.
But yeah, if you're talkingabout ushering down God's
kingdom here on earth by way ofrights, I just I'm not sure.
(26:04):
First of all, I don't know if itadheres to traditional
Christianity in the sense ofchurch history.
You know, if you're looking at,you know the martyrs, and I
mean I guess people could say,you know what about the Crusades
?
I mean, look, there is a goodargument, all right, that why
the Crusades were necessary, butalas, I will not be giving that
(26:29):
.
I'm sure you're curious to findout.
But you know, aside from theCrusades, you know, most of
Christian history typicallyfollows this line of martyrdom
where it's better to die, it'sbetter to give your life over
rather than it is to defendyourself.
And that's not only in churchhistory, that's also in
(26:53):
Scripture, that's in the Bible.
That's the immediate response,isn't it?
Well, you look at even thedisciples.
They really gave themselves upover to be killed and martyred
and I find it hard to believethat they would call the church
and call their disciples todefend him.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
It's true, isn't it?
By tradition, Peter wasmartyred, paul was martyred.
So yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
So it's interesting because you are really dealing
with a tricky, seeminglydichotomy here, because, whilst
it's interesting because you arereally dealing with a tricky,
it's seemingly dichotomy here,but set it up like here and now,
which is an interestingworldview, and it actually ties
(27:48):
into the whole Mooney'sworldview as well, where they
see the Messiah as an incompletework and so therefore, we have
to go ahead and march forwardand complete that incomplete
work that Christ did as anexample, example per se.
So, yeah, that is a.
It also fosters this idea of anemphasis on us versus them,
(28:12):
undoubtedly and also which isnot necessarily true it fosters
this idea of like, oh, it's usversus them, it's us versus us,
it's us versus us, we're theenemy here, my own flesh is the
enemy here and it calls intoquestion, even when they're
referring to the us and them, Idon't think they're just
(28:34):
referring to the Christian worldand those who are redeemed by
the blood of Christ and thoseoutside, as in just the secular
world at large.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
I guess it seems much more tied to their political
affiliation with right-wingAmerican politics and it doesn't
really make much scope forthose American Christians who
might lean politically left, whomight vote.
Democrats who tend not to agreewith their ideas about
(29:06):
traditional families or law andorder, in particular the police
and how they act towardscriminals maybe, or maybe even
issues like abortion, I don'tknow, it just seems to be.
There doesn't seem to be muchsupport there for people who
don't necessarily hold to theirpolitical views.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
Yeah, yeah.
I'm always wary with churcheswhen it comes to trying to align
themselves on a political side.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
And they do this a lot, man.
I mean you look at some of therallies that they've been
holding.
Well, they've got rallies andevents that they hold A lot of
quite prominent right-wingfigures as well.
People like Sebastian Gorkahave attended this, michael
Flynn, who was in the Trumpadministration previously was
quite involved.
He was his former nationalsecurity advisor so he attended
(29:53):
the 2024 October so just a fewmonths ago, rod of Iron Freedom
Festival.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
And again there were lots of threats made, just kind
of ostensibly, to Trump'sopponents that if he would lose
the election again, there wouldbe some kind of retribution
involved.
So, and you know there's some.
The rhetoric isn't veryChristian, it's not, no, not
particularly.
And there's a deep state targetlist apparently.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
Yeah, yeah, so a lot of it's not no not particularly.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
There's a deep state target list apparently.
Yeah, yeah, a lot of it's notoverly pleasant.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
I mean where you side on politics, you know, is your
personal view and that's fine,like where you position yourself
whether you're conservative orprogressive.
You know that's not the pointhere.
The point is when you start totie in faith in that equation,
you start to tie in faith in thesense of the kingdom here
(30:49):
rather than the kingdom that isto come.
You start to tie up your faithin worldly affairs rather than
godly affairs.
You start to tie up things inthe here and now rather than
whatly affairs you know.
You start to tie up things youknow in the here and now rather
than what is you know to come.
And so that makes aninteresting point when faith
(31:09):
becomes an integral part ofpolitics, whereby your church
you know, for example, if youhad somebody who disagreed come
to your church on maybe the gunsright issue or maybe any other
issue that the church has astrong stance against.
It would be a shame that thatperson would have to leave that
(31:36):
church.
That's why they took away.
Yeah, because it'd be like well, let's focus on gospel here,
let's focus on not whatpolitical affiliation you are
Not trying to divide.
Right let's focus on Christianlove charity.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
Which can be done.
I've come across ministers whohold very strong political views
and actually you know they'repreviously involved in parties
in the past and things of thisnature.
But you know, when they get upat the pulpit each Sunday, they
can preach and they can leavepolitical issues aside.
That's right.
Maybe I don't know issues likeabortion, because that's spoken
(32:11):
against in Scripture.
They might speak out against,but they're not going to get up
there and just condemn the otherside of the political wing
based upon their own kind ofpersonal beliefs.
I think that's the difference,yeah that's right.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
Like you're saying, you can hold these political
beliefs close to you personally,but that doesn't mean you then
go and condemn the other view orthat you uphold this view as
being superior or morescriptural.
When there is evidence,particularly pertaining to the
Second Amendment and the use ofguns, there doesn't seem to be
(32:46):
evidence from scripture thatthat's a morally superior thing
to do.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
Right, right, I'm always intrigued.
There seems to be, in myopinion, to be cult-like
practices that are happeningwithin the World of Iron
Ministries, and there seems tobe some reverence given to
Pastor Sean Moon.
So a lot of activity issurrounded by Pastor Sean Moon's
(33:16):
ideas.
I would like to know thehierarchy of how that church is
structured Like.
Is there a board of elders?
I'm imagining there isn't, butagain, it's hard to find.
What exactly is the structureof that church?
But I'm guessing Pastor SeanMoon would not only be the
pastor, he'd be the head, and alot of his ideas would be
filtered into the community.
And so, with that being said, Iwonder how all you know who
(33:40):
grow up in that community startpracticing self-defense and
self-training with weapons, youreckon?
Speaker 2 (33:48):
it'd be fairly earlier on, wouldn't it?
I mean, yeah, the problem foryou and me, man, I feel like as
well as we're quite detachedfrom this culture, I mean, even
when we were talking about thesnake biting churches like we
have snakes in australia.
We can understand that whateverand like the practice of doing
that, but the problem with gunsis like we're in a culture where
it's just not a thing, you knowyou it's, it's rare to meet
(34:10):
people.
I mean, I'm from a country town,so I knew a few people that had
guns, but for the most partpeople don't, whereas they're
much more commonplace in the usand therefore and acceptable so
therefore, children would have alot more exposure to parents,
with guns and guns beingcommonplace, particularly in, I
guess, southern states of the US.
Yeah, so yeah, but it begs thequestion again, you know, if
(34:34):
you're wanting a gun to defendyour family I disagree with John
Piper here.
I actually think that's okay.
Yeah, I think you know there'swarrant for that, for protecting
your family.
But yeah, I mean, again, it'scoming back to their motivation
seems, I guess, more politicalthan scriptural.
Yeah, so that's where we takeUmbridge, I guess.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, it certainly does, whenyou know your website barely
states what your core beliefsare, but it certainly states
what your political affiliationsand alignments are.
Speaker 2 (35:08):
I mean, you even look at the section where they call
it Gather under their websiteRight, and you know they
advertise when their Sundayservice is Yep, but then they're
also advertising all thevarious rallies and they also
seem to be advocating for youknow, gun classes and gun
(35:28):
training, and there never seemsto be too much disparity there.
Speaker 1 (35:35):
Yeah, that's right.
Yeah Well, I would just, youknow, maybe put a little bit of,
you know, provocative thoughthere.
You know how far do you need togo before something becomes
extreme?
You know, like, how far doessay the church that Pastor, Sean
(35:57):
Moon, pastors?
You know how far would it bebefore you see an all-out
resistance?
You know, because it begs thequestion, they have lots of guns
, they're prepared, they'reready.
So what is it?
You know what is the catalystthat's going to happen in order
(36:18):
for them to actually go aboutand use these guns, because at
the moment they're just usingfor self-defense training is it
one presidential assassinationaway?
Speaker 2 (36:26):
dare I say, right, right, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
So we have these guns , we have these ammunitions,
we've got a community here, um,you know what's it going to be
before we actually enact thevery things that we stand for.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
Because, you're right , there does seem to be a lot of
posturing associated with it.
They seem quite provocative.
Well, the rhetoric seems to beit's there, isn't it?
But they don't seem to act uponit as often as what they seem
to.
Yeah, and maybe that's aconcerning thing.
Radicalising, and I mean, look,this isn't to single out
right-wing politics.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
This is prevalent on the left as well.
Speaker 2 (37:01):
I think what you're saying, though, is correct.
It's like what tips them overthe edge with all this rhetoric,
and that's why this rhetoric isincreasingly problematic.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
I mean, you know, we look at Donald Trump being
re-elected.
Maybe, if that never happened,who?
Speaker 2 (37:18):
knows.
Well, there were the threats,there weren't there.
Yeah, that's right From peoplelike Flynn and a few others at
the rally in 2024.
I mean, they're obviouslyconcerned about the validity of
the previous election with thatin mind, but yeah, it does beg
the question if he wasn'telected, would that have been
the tipping point for them toact upon it?
Speaker 1 (37:40):
It certainly is food for thought in that sense.
But yeah, I don't know, againhard to find exactly what their
core beliefs are.
But if we're going off theMooney's Unification Church
teachings from his father and Ibelieve there is crossover there
, there definitely is layersthat are practiced in that
(38:02):
church Then I'm not confidentpurely on a theological basis.
To, you know, like the wholeidea of marriage becoming the,
you know, offsets, inherited sin.
It's interesting how it'sinherited sin.
I want to look into that, notenough time.
But you know, son, the fatherof Sean being the current
(38:28):
Messiah who's completing theincomplete work of Christ, these
kind of things.
You know, this is a veryrestoration, restorationist um
movement, or church, call itwhat you will seems to me to be
the real red flag.
Not necessarily the guns,although the guns do play a part
(38:50):
in this in this case that's.
That's again, assuming thatthat's what they actually
believe.
Speaker 2 (38:54):
you bang on because you think it.
What's brought them to thebelief that they can use guns in
this way?
What's the motivation behind it?
I think the guns is kind ofauxiliary to the main problem.
Correct, yes, which is yeah,they're like we said High
eschatology.
Restorationist.
Speaker 1 (39:09):
Restorationist view.
Yep Kingdom is here and now andwe need to fight for that, so
let's take up arms.
You can kind of see themovement being the slide being
happening here.
So, yeah, we see the obvious,the guns, we see the political
rallies and the gather and allthe media attention that's been
(39:33):
given here and, for the mostpart, I don't think there's
actually any other real scandalthat's associated with this that
I know of.
Are you aware of anything else?
Speaker 2 (39:46):
Because it seems to be like there's no abuse With
the Moon family in particular.
Speaker 1 (39:49):
Well, no, not with the Moon family, but with the
Rod of Iron Ministries.
Oh sure, there seems to benothing else Outside of the
rallies and yeah, no, no, um,for the most part they're pretty
, pretty wholesome, in the sensethat you know there's no
reports that I know of of abuseor anything like that.
So it's not like you knowthere's anything really else
happening except for the gunsthat's the only thing.
That's really yeah, yeah onlyyeah, wow, that we know of.
(40:12):
Yeah, um, but yeah, that'sthat's where my mind is.
It's like, okay, how did youcome to this?
Yes, it's this interpretation,but there's some crossover
coming from somewhere, fromtheir doctrine, from their
beliefs.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
From their understanding of the Bible.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:27):
So that's where I would, maybe you know, point out
that the real concern may be,but it'll be interesting to see
if any of our followers orlisteners know anyone that's a
part of that community or haveexperienced one of their
services.
I've seen that video wheretheir services are like they
have like guns and they, youknow, being Australian, you
(40:51):
mentioned it.
It's kind of like you know abit concerning yeah.
With, like you know, say 100people in a church with guns.
They all better have theirsafety on you know, because boy
oh boy.
Speaker 2 (41:04):
Not going to end well is it no?
I mean Friendly fire.
Speaker 1 (41:09):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I guess if you're going intocause like that's a church, you
wouldn't want to cause anyissues with no no start like
rebuking pastor sean moon rightthere, and then you.
You might get some fire.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
Yeah, I don't know how many uh cheeks will be
turned yeah yeah, I might be adifferent response yeah, that's
something you wouldn.
Speaker 1 (41:36):
That's something you wouldn't want to mess with them.
You wouldn't want to test them,would you?
No, you wouldn't, you wouldn'tespecially nowadays, of course.
You definitely wouldn't want totest them.
But, yeah, it'd be interestingto know if any of our followers
have experienced any of thecommunities that are involved
with the Rod of Iron Ministries.
We're going to wrap up here alittle bit now, but I have to
(42:00):
present the question becausethat's what we're doing here at
the Church Review Podcast and weI don't know where Sam stands
on this issue, but again, weneed a Jesus bobblehead.
So if you're out there, pleasesend us one to see if he would
approve or just nod his head inshame.
Do you think Jesus wouldapprove of this church?
Speaker 2 (42:27):
Jesse, I hate to say it, man, I think there will be a
shaking of the head with this.
Speaker 1 (42:30):
Okay, not because of the guns Okay.
Speaker 2 (42:32):
Not because of some of the stuff about family values
is very good.
I think we've got to come backto the core beliefs and their
understanding of the fall,original sin doctrine of
humanity.
We discussed it earlier.
Concerning the restoration ofstuff, christ's death wasn't
enough.
Their high eschatology seems towhich is not necessarily a
(42:59):
salvation issue but it seems tocome out of their restorationist
beliefs is concerning, andtheir understanding of God and
their understanding of theatonement makes us a church.
I'd struggle to see how Christwould approve of this.
I could be wrong, but justgoing off of those beliefs that
(43:22):
they hold to, I think you'dstruggle to make a case for them
.
Speaker 1 (43:31):
Yeah, correct that.
The assumptions that we'vementioned here on the episode of
them believing a lot of whatthe Moonies believe, a lot of
what the Unification Churchbelieves, is probably what they
believe as well.
So if that's true, then I agreewith you.
I think Jesus would nod hishead sadly.
Speaker 2 (43:51):
And you want to make concessions, don't you?
But it's difficult to when theyhold those beliefs, and then
Moon himself being the Messiah,I mean that's really problematic
.
Speaker 1 (44:04):
Yeah, that's correct.
I think in essence, the Rod ofIron Ministries, the Sanctuary
Church, whatever otherabbreviations that are added
there, I'm just calling it theSanctuary Church because it's
shorter.
I think they see it as like adivine mandate for believers to
actually combine their faithwith action, in the sense that
(44:26):
you know this whole culture ofself-defense, using firearms as
a means to protect and enforcethe values of God's kingdom.
I just don't see that asbiblical, I don't see that as
Christian.
I see the opposite.
Actually, if we look at earlychurch, as we mentioned, I see
martyrdom.
(44:46):
I see Jesus encouraging hisbelievers not to take up arms.
Speaker 2 (44:53):
I see a kingdom here, a worldly kingdom, kingdom that
we ought not to fight for sense, but certainly the majority of
christendom would say yeah, thecrusades, a lot of the wars
(45:20):
surrounding the reformation, the30 years war, yeah, uh, the
saint bala follow me today,massacre whatever it is.
The war.
You know the disputes betweencatholics and protestants
throughout history, right, uh,people don't think they're good
things as christians yeah,people don't think they're
taking things as Christians.
Yeah, people don't think thattaking up arms and being hostile
and aggressive is good and itdoes seem, as we said earlier,
(45:41):
antithetical to the teachings ofChrist.
Speaker 1 (45:43):
Correct.
Yeah, no 100%, and it seemslike this ministry here seems to
do the opposite.
In my opinion, I would agree.
Yeah, so, with that said, isthere any like?
Because I want our followers,because we have a fair few
actually I want our followers tomaybe not only pitch their two
(46:04):
cents, maybe comment and follow,and all the yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:07):
If you disagree with us, go for it.
Yeah, absolutely I've talked topeople actually in my own life
that would disagree with me onthis, undoubtedly.
Speaker 1 (46:14):
Yeah, no, we encourage that actually.
That's, that's something that,um, yeah, that would that we
want, uh, because it makes forgood conversation.
You know, around the table andI think, um, uh, if there was,
you know, if you were to leave areview, if you were to leave a
review on, you know, googlereviews, or you know I would, I
(46:35):
would love to like call, but youknow that's just not happening.
You know, come on, we're guysfrom western australia, you know
that that's.
Speaker 2 (46:41):
We only just got power 10 years ago.
Yeah but?
Speaker 1 (46:43):
but if you look, if you look at the google review
maps, you will see the responsetime on some of those google
reviews from whoever's whoever'syou know, taking care of the,
the, whatever, the social aspectof the church is pretty quick.
It's actually really quick.
There'll be a review within oneto two weeks and within a week
(47:06):
or two there'll be a response.
Speaker 2 (47:07):
So that's pretty good .
Speaker 1 (47:08):
But if you were to leave a review, I think the
Snakebiting Church hashtag Freethe Snakes was awesome.
I would encourage all of ourlisteners to do that, because
this is how we're going to buildour community.
We're going to be a force to bereckoned with, but not in the
not in their mooney sense.
We'll get the guns in thecabinet yes, we will fight with
(47:29):
our words, not with our firearms, because we've got none here in
australia.
So there you go, um, but yeah,if you had to leave a review
hashtag, what are you leaving?
Is there something that wecould leave with, maybe for our
followers and listeners to maybefollow up on?
Speaker 2 (47:42):
Oh, like a little catchy.
Speaker 1 (47:44):
Yeah, I mean the hashtag free the snakes was
really cool.
I got a lot of good love heartemojis and a lot of good
feedback from that.
So hashtag, keep the gun in thecase.
I like it.
Speaker 2 (47:59):
Yeah, for some reason I was thinking of doing
something with the SecondAmendment, but that's just not
very catchy, I think.
Keep the guns in the case,because you think about it in
contrast to us.
We've freed the snakes, butwe're also keeping the guns in.
We're quite balanced here onthe church.
Speaker 1 (48:18):
We certainly are.
Okay, we'll do that.
Keep the guns.
Keep the guns in the case Bomb.
No, let's not use thatterminology, Unless someone has
broken into your house.
Oh, sure, sure, sure, there areexceptions.
We're sorry.
We do apologise if thathappened.
We are not liable for anythingthat was said on the podcast
(48:40):
show.
Okay, we have lawyers.
Jesus is our lawyer.
Okay, you cannot argue againsthim Romans 13.
He was also a high priest aswell.
But yes, I think we'll leave itat that and we'll go ahead and
yeah, we'll call that a callthat a wrap.
Uh, thank you for listeninghere at the church review
(49:00):
podcast.
As always, we do appreciate thefeedback.
So if you haven't alreadyfollow us on the socials
instagram, church review podcastone word church review on the x
and facebook.
And uh, thank you again, sam, asalways, for your pleasure, as
always brother, good to see you,you too, and I know that you're
not going to be in for the nextepisode.
Oh no, sorry, no, I'm not 100%sure on that.
Speaker 2 (49:23):
We'll see what happens?
Speaker 1 (49:25):
Correct, yeah, so, but in the meantime, thank you
for listening, as always.
Do you know the outro Sam?
Speaker 2 (49:33):
Because if you don't, I'm happy to share it.
Oh, I forgot already.
Stay Churched, stay True.
Close.
I put it in the wrong order,haven't I?
Speaker 1 (49:39):
All right, I'll do it here.
Stay, yeah.
That's okay, though, becauseyou know, work in progress, work
in progress.
We'll get you up to speed verysoon.
No, it's Stay True, stayRelevant, stay Churched here at
the Church Review Podcast.
We appreciate it and thanks forlistening.
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