April 4, 2025 • 19 mins
Join us as we spend time in conversation with denominational executive Gene Roncone, who leads 160 churches, 525 ministers, and 44,000 constituents in Colorado and Utah. He discusses a crisis need among pastors and that is their isolation from others, including other pastors. Pastor Gene uses the phrase that “too many pastors are locking the door from the inside” when they most desperately need others to help them live whole and healthy ministry lives.
Show Notes: https://leaders.church/podcast/ep-140-isolation-in-the-pastorate/
Counseling Resources:
Emerge Ministries: https://emerge.org/
Mental Health Support: https://a.co/d/7SADgGx
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dick Hardy (00:06):
Hey friend, it's great to be with you on this
episode of The Church TipsPodcast. And today I'm with my
good friend from the great stateof Colorado, Gene Roncone. Gene
say hi to the viewers today.
Gene Roncone (00:17):
Man, great to be with you and and everyone on
your podcast.
Dick Hardy (00:20):
Well, you know, we've really enjoyed Gene as as
you would guess, communicatingwith pastors on the issues that
are germane to them inthepastorate and in the ministry
today, and you and I were goingback and forth over the last
week or so onsomething that you're finding as
a as a leader. Now this is amulti denominational podcast.
(00:42):
Gene happens to serve in afellowship where you have how
many churches in the RockyMountain district?
Gene Roncone (00:51):
We've got just under 170 churches and 550
ministers and 44,000constituents in Colorado and
Utah.
Dick Hardy (00:59):
Yeah. So, so what are you doing in your spare
time? That's what I want toknow.
Gene Roncone (01:03):
Yeah, yeah.
Dick Hardy (01:04):
So I we wanted to know that because, for the
viewers, Gene's, comments arevery, very credible, in my mind,
because he's boots on the grounddealing with pastors who are
dealing with the subjectwe'regoing to talk about here,
of isolation in ministry, andit's real, and it's a it's an
(01:26):
issue that we need to be veryopen and honest about if we're
going to move forward andaddress it effectively. So Gene,
talk to us.
Gene Roncone (01:34):
Yeah, you know, I really feel the ground moving
beneath me, Dick. It is...
there's something happening inthe church right now, and it is
not good. It's like shiftingtectonic plates. Pastors are
crashing, they're burning out atalarming rates. Let me give you
a couple examples of how thishas been documented. LifeWay
Research said that one in fourpastors struggle with depression
(01:57):
and anxiety. Chuck Hannaford, heis the psychological counsel for
the Southern Baptist Convention.
He was recently interviewedabout the uptick of ministerial
suicide, and he said he justdoesn't see those numbers
leveling out. He thinks thatthey're going to continue to
increase. Another study said 64%of pastors have less than five
(02:22):
close friends, if you canbelieve that, it just kind of
blows my mind.
Barna Research said 100 or 1500clergy leave the ministry every
monthand and here's thestaggering one dick, 50% of
pastors indicated that theywould leave the ministry if they
had another way to make alivingand provide for their
family. That was from theHartford Institute of religious
(02:44):
research. And so, you know, itreally doesn't take you long to
dig down underneath all thesesymptoms that we're talking
about, of burnout, loneliness,moral failure, that you see the
real problem, and that isisolation. So, for various
reasons, a lot of ministers areallowing themselves to be
separated from those life-givingrelationships. And I personally
(03:09):
believe the most healthyrelationships a pastor can have
is with other pastors. So frommy line of sight, I see, from,
you know, frommy view, kind ofat the top of the mask, giving
leadership to two states, I seefive reasons why pastors must
get out of isolation and startconnecting with life-giving
(03:31):
relationships with their peers.
Dick Hardy (03:33):
Yup. Well, you know when you talk about even the
thing that captured, I caughtwell, I caught all of it. But
this thing that jumped out at mewas they, they don't have a lot
of pastors. Don't have fiveclose friends,
and I can imagine even those whodo have five close friends. If
(03:56):
this becomes chronic over alengthy period of time, the guys
would get in the mode ofthinking, I really have zero
close friends, because they'vealready talked to this one and
that one and that one and thatone again and again and again
and again, and they're kind ofgoing to themselves. There's
(04:17):
something wrong with me, becauseI've talked to my friends, and
I'm still like this.
Gene Roncone (04:23):
Yes, yeah. And I think the thing that is is scary
about this is that many pastorslock the door from the inside,
and so one of the great dangersis that isolated, isolated
ministers are susceptible totremendous temptation, more so
(04:43):
than than others. I mean, youand I know this dickministry is
going to find your weakness,right? It's it's not, it's not
if, it's when. And I love whatBonhoeffer said, that sin
demands to have a man by himselfthat that they resist the
temptation to live and serveinisolation. And boy, that is a
powerful statement. So you know,God hascreated all of us for
(05:06):
community. God in Genesis, ourfirst image of him is existing
in community, in the Trinity.
But when we deprive ourselves ofthose life-giving relationships
with others, we are we areweaker, not stronger, and so we
are susceptible to a lot oftemptations that feed into that.
So, you know, isolated pastorshave way more temptation, but
(05:31):
they also are dangerous leadersDick.
When you start isolatingyourself and you don't have
these kind of people. And thereason I'm a big fan of peer
relationships is I can haveimmediate traction with another
minister if I've even known himfor 30 minutes. We have so much
in common right out of the gate.
I can't always share with peoplemy church or people in the lay
(05:53):
community, but boy, a peerunderstands what you do, how you
do it, the pressures of it. Andso when you isolate yourself,
you become a dangerous leader. Ilove what Eric Geiger said. He
said, the sting of criticismburdens responsibilities, and
the pace of leadershipconstantly nudges us towards
(06:14):
isolation, and every step webecome more and more dangerous.
And so, you know, you thinkabout those crash and burn
stories that all of us have inour in our head, and you really
come to the conclusion thatisolated leaders, they lack
meaningful relationships, theydon't have the support system,
the accountability structures,the peer communication and so
(06:35):
with no authentic relationshipsor systems, their greatest
gifts, no matter how great theyare, sooner or later, become
overshadowed by their weakness.
When I,when I think about thisDick, I think of Judas. You
know, you read that passage inJohn where it says, you know, at
(06:56):
the Last Supper, the sacredmoment, it says, as soon as
Judas took the bread, Satanentered him, I'm scratching my
head going, how? How does one ofJesus's inner circle become
possessed by a demon? How does aman who experienced all the
things that that Jesus had...
Dick Hardy (07:15):
Healings and everything.
Gene Roncone (07:17):
Yeah, walking and calming the sea, you know,
casting out demons, and it'sbecause Judas got on that road
of isolation and he justcouldn't get off of it.
Unknown (07:26):
get
Dick Hardy (07:26):
off of it.
Wow. So talk to us about thosefive and that you were
referencing earlier.
Gene Roncone (07:33):
Yeah, so we talked a little bit about the first
two, and that is that that we'remore susceptible to temptation
when we're isolated. The secondthat we talked about was, you
know, we become dangerous. Webecome toxic leaders on ego
trips, narcissistic. We just arenot healthy.And the third thing,
(07:54):
the reason is that I thinkisolated leaders are prone to
destructive emotions.
I spent some time researching alot of these pastoral suicides
and Dick, I wish I could tellyou a different fact, but in the
last six years, three of myclose friends took their lives
in the ministry. And, statisticsshow that an isolated leader
(08:16):
experiences more frequent andmore intense feelings of things
like sadness, loneliness,depression, you know, anxiety,
stress and so pastoral suicideis becoming more and more
common. And we read thesethings, we kind of roll on
without looking at them. FamilyTherapist Jim Hopkins says that
(08:37):
a minister's close and authenticrelationships can be
preventative, and they can beanantidote to emotional wounds,
mental illness, depression andeven some addictions. I mean,
that's how powerfulrelationships and community are.
So I think isolation takes us toa dark place and sometimes we
(09:01):
don't we go there not realizingwhere isolation is taking us.
Dick Hardy (09:05):
Yeah, wow, wow. Any others that really are
identified?
Gene Roncone (09:11):
Yeah, I let me touch on two more. One is, is
that isolated leaders are muchmore prone to pride and Dick, I,
you know, it's hard for me tosay what I'm about to say, I
love pastors. I am an advocatefor pastors. On the bottom of my
email is is not my title, itsays helper. And it's hard for
(09:32):
me to say this, but one of themost discouraging things about
my role is to see the prevalenceof pride and ego in our our
ministers. And Dick, I'm nottalking about mega-church
pastors. I'm saying ministers ofall sizes of ministry, all scope
of ministry. And I think, Ithink what happens is sometimes
(09:52):
ministers isolate themselves.
Most of the time, ministers getwhat they want. And I can't
think of a greater recipe fordisaster than to be isolated and
get what you want most of thetime. And so what happens is
isolation manifests itself inthings like competition with our
peers, jealousy, narcissism andpride keeps usfrom reaching out
(10:15):
to others because it isolatesus. We begin to we begin to
elevate ourself above our peers.
And so that old Proverb, Proverb16:18, just rings true too
often. Pride goes beforedestruction. So when you see
competition, arrogance,hyper-spirituality, all these
(10:40):
things or ways that isolatedleaders try to elevate
themselves above others insteadof connecting with them in
relationship. Does that makesense?
Dick Hardy (10:50):
That absolutely does make sense. I remember reading
here just a couple of years agosecular book, Ego is the Enemy.
B
Gene Roncone (10:57):
Boy, yeah.
Dick Hardy (10:58):
My goodness, and that just has church and
pastoring written all over it,as you said, in churches of all
size,and we're all susceptible,including Gene, including Dick,
everybody.
Gene Roncone (11:12):
Absolutely. I'm convinced Dick, that you know,
when I pastored for 35 years,you know, you don't always get
what you want, but the thingsthat were important to me, 90%
of the time, I got what I want.
And I think that there are timesDick that God deprives me of
(11:33):
very good andnoble desires forno other reason to keep me
humble and dependent upon Him,and so, you know that leads to
to what I would call the thenext, the next danger, and that
is that isolated leaders,they're at a way higher risk for
burnout. Barna Research foundthat there is a direct
(11:55):
correlation between the absenceof friendships and the
propensity towards spiritual andvocational burnout, and that
happens when we don't havefriends. So, you know, we are
hard-wired for community. We arecreated in the image of God, who
is a relational creator. And sowe are our best selves when we
(12:17):
exist in community, weare worseselves when we live in
isolation. So you know, if thereis a pastor that is here and and
boy, I have, I have been inevery church model, and when I
was younger, I served in a smallworld church, before going to
district ministry, I served in alarger church, and I get all of
the but once you believe youdon't need your peers... man,
(12:41):
that is the beginning of the endas far as this isolation thing.
So I think one of the saddestthings Dick is a quote that I
love from Rusty George's bookbetter together. He said this,
"the saddest truth is that weare the ones who lock the door
from the inside" and and, boy,you can't help someone that's
(13:05):
locked the door from the inside.
Can you?
Dick Hardy (13:08):
No, you really can't do it.
You know, this has been so goodGene, I'm gonna I didn't tell
you this, so we're just gonnawing it and see how this works.
You got a guy who's watchingthis podcast right now, or a
gal, and they're at theend,they're at the bottom. They
(13:28):
recognize 1,2,3,4 or 5, all fiveof the things you just talked
about, they have cried out toGod. They've screamed out to
God, yeah, to deliver me, tohelp me, and they can't find
their way out.
They may be contemplating theend...
Gene Roncone (13:48):
Yes.
Dick Hardy (13:50):
And they don't disagree with anything they get
help. Is there anything we cando to penetrate what seems to be
the reason they've locked thedoor from the inside?
Gene Roncone (14:08):
Yeah, yes.
Dick Hardy (14:09):
It's play or not.
You know, they've done this.
What can we say to them isthere, and I know I'm putting
you on the spot with this.
Gene Roncone (14:15):
No, I would love to respond to that. I think, I
think there's a couple of thingsthat are important for for
pastors. One is, is Dick, thisis the hardest time to lead. You
know, I it is, you know, outsideof the Civil War years, where
many pastors buried half oftheir churches, I think this is
(14:37):
the hardest time to lead. Laypeople are impossible to please
these days. So I think what ishealthy is reaching out. So I
had a great mentor in my lifewho taught me many years ago,
ministry is so demanding, everyfive years you should go to a
counselor and get an emotionalcheckup. Now, Dick, this was
before you know that it was hipto to go see or get help. Right
(15:00):
back in the day it was, it wasfrowned upon, you know, and I'm
talking about a Christiancounselor. But every five years
I go to a counselor and say,hey, I'm in a job that sucks
everything out of me. Am I okay?
And there are, you know, threeor four inventories, it might
take three sessions, and there'stimes Dick, that I have had
counselors say hey, man, you'redoing great. Just keep doing
(15:21):
what you're doing. The secondthing is, is sometimes they've
said, you know, man, you'reyou're starting to strain this
area. Do this, this and this. SoI think making sure you're doing
what I call an emotionalcheckup. I would say the second
thing is to understand thatrelationships are something that
we have to initiate. And theproblem they're so valuable. We
(15:44):
talked about how valuable theyare, but the problem is, you got
to have them before you needthem. You know, when you're
experiencing burnout, whenyou're on the verge of a marital
affair, when you're on the vergeof suicidal thoughts, boy, if
you're not careful, it could betoo late to get traction in
those kind of relationships. Sofind people you trust and and
(16:04):
reach out to them. I'm a bigproponent of peers, Dick, peer
relationships, ministers toministers, because we have so
much traction. Our very firstmeeting, you know, I, I'll be in
an airport, I'll meet anotherminister. And I, you know, a few
months ago, I almost missed myplane. We just got into a
conversation. There wasimmediate traction. We had so
(16:27):
much in common. And so I wouldsay those things are the way,
the way to go and reach out. Ithink the third thing is, I
would say all of us are part,usually part of some kind of
ministerial organization,accrediting agency, when you
think you're too good for that,when you think you're bigger
than the organization, well, yougot a problem. So, those
organizations provide meetingsand conventions and go to those
(16:51):
things, man, even if it's hardfor you be the guy that can walk
in the room and have emotionalcourage and sit down to people
you don't know and get to know.
Dick Hardy (17:01):
Yeah, no, that is so good. Gene, this has been so
value, valuable. Ifyou're goingto give the men and women
watching this a parting shot,what is the thing you'd want to
say to them to give them somesense of encouragement that
(17:23):
there is light at the end of thetunnel, they don't have to live
in isolation. What would yousay?
Gene Roncone (17:27):
I would say that I think the Holy Spirit, no matter
how hard ministry is, no matterhow much culture strays, God
always gives us what we need.
This is the greatest opportunityfor the church. It's the
greatest opportunity forministers. So rise above that.
Don't be a thermometerreflecting culture. Be a
thermostat that is settingsetting the atmosphere around
(17:50):
you.
Dick Hardy (17:52):
Yeah, no, that's so good. That is so good. Gene
Roncone, thank you very much foryour help. Just this has been
great content. We applaudwhatyou're doing there in Colorado
and Utah. And to our viewers, ifyou have any questions or
comments, be sure to send themto us. Email
(18:12):
support@leaders.church. And ifwe need to get something to Gene
we'll do that. And I know he'llstand ready to be of whatever
helphe can be to you. We'll tryto get you some additional
resources in terms of counselingoptions and so on. So stay tuned
for that in the in the shownotes. But thank you again.
(18:33):
Gene, if you have any need justin your leadership of the
church, we stand ready. JonathanHardy and Dick Hardy stand ready
with Leaders.Church and ChurchUniversity to help you in any
way we can. You can go toLeaders.Church or
churchuniversity.com, and we'llbe glad to serve you in that
way.
In the meantime, thanks so muchfor slicing some time off for us
(18:54):
today.Thank you again. Gene,make it a great day and be
blessed.
Hey,
Jonathan Hardy (18:59):
Hey, Jonathan, here real quick before you go,
everything in your ministryrises and falls on your
leadership. So investing in yourleadership is essential to
staying healthy and growing theministry, and that's why I want
to invite you to join us insidethe Leaders.Church membership,
this online streaming servicefor pastors gives you access to
more than300 videos plustraining material to level up
your leadership and improve yourministry skills. If you'd like
(19:20):
to do that, I want to invite youto go to Leaders.Church/boost.
Again, that'sLeaders.Church/boost. Well,
thanks again for joining us onthe Church Tips Podcast. We'll
look forward to seeing you nexttime.
Unknown (19:42):
you
Hey friend, it's great to be with you on this
episode of The Church TipsPodcast. And today I'm with my
good friend from the great stateof Colorado, Gene Roncone. Gene
say hi to the viewers today.
Gene Roncone (00:17):
Man, great to be with you and and everyone on
your podcast.
Dick Hardy (00:20):
Well, you know, we've really enjoyed Gene as as
you would guess, communicatingwith pastors on the issues that
are germane to them inthepastorate and in the ministry
today, and you and I were goingback and forth over the last
week or so onsomething that you're finding as
a as a leader. Now this is amulti denominational podcast.
(00:42):
Gene happens to serve in afellowship where you have how
many churches in the RockyMountain district?
Gene Roncone (00:51):
We've got just under 170 churches and 550
ministers and 44,000constituents in Colorado and
Utah.
Dick Hardy (00:59):
Yeah. So, so what are you doing in your spare
time? That's what I want toknow.
Gene Roncone (01:03):
Yeah, yeah.
Dick Hardy (01:04):
So I we wanted to know that because, for the
viewers, Gene's, comments arevery, very credible, in my mind,
because he's boots on the grounddealing with pastors who are
dealing with the subjectwe'regoing to talk about here,
of isolation in ministry, andit's real, and it's a it's an
(01:26):
issue that we need to be veryopen and honest about if we're
going to move forward andaddress it effectively. So Gene,
talk to us.
Gene Roncone (01:34):
Yeah, you know, I really feel the ground moving
beneath me, Dick. It is...
there's something happening inthe church right now, and it is
not good. It's like shiftingtectonic plates. Pastors are
crashing, they're burning out atalarming rates. Let me give you
a couple examples of how thishas been documented. LifeWay
Research said that one in fourpastors struggle with depression
(01:57):
and anxiety. Chuck Hannaford, heis the psychological counsel for
the Southern Baptist Convention.
He was recently interviewedabout the uptick of ministerial
suicide, and he said he justdoesn't see those numbers
leveling out. He thinks thatthey're going to continue to
increase. Another study said 64%of pastors have less than five
(02:22):
close friends, if you canbelieve that, it just kind of
blows my mind.
Barna Research said 100 or 1500clergy leave the ministry every
monthand and here's thestaggering one dick, 50% of
pastors indicated that theywould leave the ministry if they
had another way to make alivingand provide for their
family. That was from theHartford Institute of religious
(02:44):
research. And so, you know, itreally doesn't take you long to
dig down underneath all thesesymptoms that we're talking
about, of burnout, loneliness,moral failure, that you see the
real problem, and that isisolation. So, for various
reasons, a lot of ministers areallowing themselves to be
separated from those life-givingrelationships. And I personally
(03:09):
believe the most healthyrelationships a pastor can have
is with other pastors. So frommy line of sight, I see, from,
you know, frommy view, kind ofat the top of the mask, giving
leadership to two states, I seefive reasons why pastors must
get out of isolation and startconnecting with life-giving
(03:31):
relationships with their peers.
Dick Hardy (03:33):
Yup. Well, you know when you talk about even the
thing that captured, I caughtwell, I caught all of it. But
this thing that jumped out at mewas they, they don't have a lot
of pastors. Don't have fiveclose friends,
and I can imagine even those whodo have five close friends. If
(03:56):
this becomes chronic over alengthy period of time, the guys
would get in the mode ofthinking, I really have zero
close friends, because they'vealready talked to this one and
that one and that one and thatone again and again and again
and again, and they're kind ofgoing to themselves. There's
(04:17):
something wrong with me, becauseI've talked to my friends, and
I'm still like this.
Gene Roncone (04:23):
Yes, yeah. And I think the thing that is is scary
about this is that many pastorslock the door from the inside,
and so one of the great dangersis that isolated, isolated
ministers are susceptible totremendous temptation, more so
(04:43):
than than others. I mean, youand I know this dickministry is
going to find your weakness,right? It's it's not, it's not
if, it's when. And I love whatBonhoeffer said, that sin
demands to have a man by himselfthat that they resist the
temptation to live and serveinisolation. And boy, that is a
powerful statement. So you know,God hascreated all of us for
(05:06):
community. God in Genesis, ourfirst image of him is existing
in community, in the Trinity.
But when we deprive ourselves ofthose life-giving relationships
with others, we are we areweaker, not stronger, and so we
are susceptible to a lot oftemptations that feed into that.
So, you know, isolated pastorshave way more temptation, but
(05:31):
they also are dangerous leadersDick.
When you start isolatingyourself and you don't have
these kind of people. And thereason I'm a big fan of peer
relationships is I can haveimmediate traction with another
minister if I've even known himfor 30 minutes. We have so much
in common right out of the gate.
I can't always share with peoplemy church or people in the lay
(05:53):
community, but boy, a peerunderstands what you do, how you
do it, the pressures of it. Andso when you isolate yourself,
you become a dangerous leader. Ilove what Eric Geiger said. He
said, the sting of criticismburdens responsibilities, and
the pace of leadershipconstantly nudges us towards
(06:14):
isolation, and every step webecome more and more dangerous.
And so, you know, you thinkabout those crash and burn
stories that all of us have inour in our head, and you really
come to the conclusion thatisolated leaders, they lack
meaningful relationships, theydon't have the support system,
the accountability structures,the peer communication and so
(06:35):
with no authentic relationshipsor systems, their greatest
gifts, no matter how great theyare, sooner or later, become
overshadowed by their weakness.
When I,when I think about thisDick, I think of Judas. You
know, you read that passage inJohn where it says, you know, at
(06:56):
the Last Supper, the sacredmoment, it says, as soon as
Judas took the bread, Satanentered him, I'm scratching my
head going, how? How does one ofJesus's inner circle become
possessed by a demon? How does aman who experienced all the
things that that Jesus had...
Dick Hardy (07:15):
Healings and everything.
Gene Roncone (07:17):
Yeah, walking and calming the sea, you know,
casting out demons, and it'sbecause Judas got on that road
of isolation and he justcouldn't get off of it.
Unknown (07:26):
get
Dick Hardy (07:26):
off of it.
Wow. So talk to us about thosefive and that you were
referencing earlier.
Gene Roncone (07:33):
Yeah, so we talked a little bit about the first
two, and that is that that we'remore susceptible to temptation
when we're isolated. The secondthat we talked about was, you
know, we become dangerous. Webecome toxic leaders on ego
trips, narcissistic. We just arenot healthy.And the third thing,
(07:54):
the reason is that I thinkisolated leaders are prone to
destructive emotions.
I spent some time researching alot of these pastoral suicides
and Dick, I wish I could tellyou a different fact, but in the
last six years, three of myclose friends took their lives
in the ministry. And, statisticsshow that an isolated leader
(08:16):
experiences more frequent andmore intense feelings of things
like sadness, loneliness,depression, you know, anxiety,
stress and so pastoral suicideis becoming more and more
common. And we read thesethings, we kind of roll on
without looking at them. FamilyTherapist Jim Hopkins says that
(08:37):
a minister's close and authenticrelationships can be
preventative, and they can beanantidote to emotional wounds,
mental illness, depression andeven some addictions. I mean,
that's how powerfulrelationships and community are.
So I think isolation takes us toa dark place and sometimes we
(09:01):
don't we go there not realizingwhere isolation is taking us.
Dick Hardy (09:05):
Yeah, wow, wow. Any others that really are
identified?
Gene Roncone (09:11):
Yeah, I let me touch on two more. One is, is
that isolated leaders are muchmore prone to pride and Dick, I,
you know, it's hard for me tosay what I'm about to say, I
love pastors. I am an advocatefor pastors. On the bottom of my
email is is not my title, itsays helper. And it's hard for
(09:32):
me to say this, but one of themost discouraging things about
my role is to see the prevalenceof pride and ego in our our
ministers. And Dick, I'm nottalking about mega-church
pastors. I'm saying ministers ofall sizes of ministry, all scope
of ministry. And I think, Ithink what happens is sometimes
(09:52):
ministers isolate themselves.
Most of the time, ministers getwhat they want. And I can't
think of a greater recipe fordisaster than to be isolated and
get what you want most of thetime. And so what happens is
isolation manifests itself inthings like competition with our
peers, jealousy, narcissism andpride keeps usfrom reaching out
(10:15):
to others because it isolatesus. We begin to we begin to
elevate ourself above our peers.
And so that old Proverb, Proverb16:18, just rings true too
often. Pride goes beforedestruction. So when you see
competition, arrogance,hyper-spirituality, all these
(10:40):
things or ways that isolatedleaders try to elevate
themselves above others insteadof connecting with them in
relationship. Does that makesense?
Dick Hardy (10:50):
That absolutely does make sense. I remember reading
here just a couple of years agosecular book, Ego is the Enemy.
B
Gene Roncone (10:57):
Boy, yeah.
Dick Hardy (10:58):
My goodness, and that just has church and
pastoring written all over it,as you said, in churches of all
size,and we're all susceptible,including Gene, including Dick,
everybody.
Gene Roncone (11:12):
Absolutely. I'm convinced Dick, that you know,
when I pastored for 35 years,you know, you don't always get
what you want, but the thingsthat were important to me, 90%
of the time, I got what I want.
And I think that there are timesDick that God deprives me of
(11:33):
very good andnoble desires forno other reason to keep me
humble and dependent upon Him,and so, you know that leads to
to what I would call the thenext, the next danger, and that
is that isolated leaders,they're at a way higher risk for
burnout. Barna Research foundthat there is a direct
(11:55):
correlation between the absenceof friendships and the
propensity towards spiritual andvocational burnout, and that
happens when we don't havefriends. So, you know, we are
hard-wired for community. We arecreated in the image of God, who
is a relational creator. And sowe are our best selves when we
(12:17):
exist in community, weare worseselves when we live in
isolation. So you know, if thereis a pastor that is here and and
boy, I have, I have been inevery church model, and when I
was younger, I served in a smallworld church, before going to
district ministry, I served in alarger church, and I get all of
the but once you believe youdon't need your peers... man,
(12:41):
that is the beginning of the endas far as this isolation thing.
So I think one of the saddestthings Dick is a quote that I
love from Rusty George's bookbetter together. He said this,
"the saddest truth is that weare the ones who lock the door
from the inside" and and, boy,you can't help someone that's
(13:05):
locked the door from the inside.
Can you?
Dick Hardy (13:08):
No, you really can't do it.
You know, this has been so goodGene, I'm gonna I didn't tell
you this, so we're just gonnawing it and see how this works.
You got a guy who's watchingthis podcast right now, or a
gal, and they're at theend,they're at the bottom. They
(13:28):
recognize 1,2,3,4 or 5, all fiveof the things you just talked
about, they have cried out toGod. They've screamed out to
God, yeah, to deliver me, tohelp me, and they can't find
their way out.
They may be contemplating theend...
Gene Roncone (13:48):
Yes.
Dick Hardy (13:50):
And they don't disagree with anything they get
help. Is there anything we cando to penetrate what seems to be
the reason they've locked thedoor from the inside?
Gene Roncone (14:08):
Yeah, yes.
Dick Hardy (14:09):
It's play or not.
You know, they've done this.
What can we say to them isthere, and I know I'm putting
you on the spot with this.
Gene Roncone (14:15):
No, I would love to respond to that. I think, I
think there's a couple of thingsthat are important for for
pastors. One is, is Dick, thisis the hardest time to lead. You
know, I it is, you know, outsideof the Civil War years, where
many pastors buried half oftheir churches, I think this is
(14:37):
the hardest time to lead. Laypeople are impossible to please
these days. So I think what ishealthy is reaching out. So I
had a great mentor in my lifewho taught me many years ago,
ministry is so demanding, everyfive years you should go to a
counselor and get an emotionalcheckup. Now, Dick, this was
before you know that it was hipto to go see or get help. Right
(15:00):
back in the day it was, it wasfrowned upon, you know, and I'm
talking about a Christiancounselor. But every five years
I go to a counselor and say,hey, I'm in a job that sucks
everything out of me. Am I okay?
And there are, you know, threeor four inventories, it might
take three sessions, and there'stimes Dick, that I have had
counselors say hey, man, you'redoing great. Just keep doing
(15:21):
what you're doing. The secondthing is, is sometimes they've
said, you know, man, you'reyou're starting to strain this
area. Do this, this and this. SoI think making sure you're doing
what I call an emotionalcheckup. I would say the second
thing is to understand thatrelationships are something that
we have to initiate. And theproblem they're so valuable. We
(15:44):
talked about how valuable theyare, but the problem is, you got
to have them before you needthem. You know, when you're
experiencing burnout, whenyou're on the verge of a marital
affair, when you're on the vergeof suicidal thoughts, boy, if
you're not careful, it could betoo late to get traction in
those kind of relationships. Sofind people you trust and and
(16:04):
reach out to them. I'm a bigproponent of peers, Dick, peer
relationships, ministers toministers, because we have so
much traction. Our very firstmeeting, you know, I, I'll be in
an airport, I'll meet anotherminister. And I, you know, a few
months ago, I almost missed myplane. We just got into a
conversation. There wasimmediate traction. We had so
(16:27):
much in common. And so I wouldsay those things are the way,
the way to go and reach out. Ithink the third thing is, I
would say all of us are part,usually part of some kind of
ministerial organization,accrediting agency, when you
think you're too good for that,when you think you're bigger
than the organization, well, yougot a problem. So, those
organizations provide meetingsand conventions and go to those
(16:51):
things, man, even if it's hardfor you be the guy that can walk
in the room and have emotionalcourage and sit down to people
you don't know and get to know.
Dick Hardy (17:01):
Yeah, no, that is so good. Gene, this has been so
value, valuable. Ifyou're goingto give the men and women
watching this a parting shot,what is the thing you'd want to
say to them to give them somesense of encouragement that
(17:23):
there is light at the end of thetunnel, they don't have to live
in isolation. What would yousay?
Gene Roncone (17:27):
I would say that I think the Holy Spirit, no matter
how hard ministry is, no matterhow much culture strays, God
always gives us what we need.
This is the greatest opportunityfor the church. It's the
greatest opportunity forministers. So rise above that.
Don't be a thermometerreflecting culture. Be a
thermostat that is settingsetting the atmosphere around
(17:50):
you.
Dick Hardy (17:52):
Yeah, no, that's so good. That is so good. Gene
Roncone, thank you very much foryour help. Just this has been
great content. We applaudwhatyou're doing there in Colorado
and Utah. And to our viewers, ifyou have any questions or
comments, be sure to send themto us. Email
(18:12):
support@leaders.church. And ifwe need to get something to Gene
we'll do that. And I know he'llstand ready to be of whatever
helphe can be to you. We'll tryto get you some additional
resources in terms of counselingoptions and so on. So stay tuned
for that in the in the shownotes. But thank you again.
(18:33):
Gene, if you have any need justin your leadership of the
church, we stand ready. JonathanHardy and Dick Hardy stand ready
with Leaders.Church and ChurchUniversity to help you in any
way we can. You can go toLeaders.Church or
churchuniversity.com, and we'llbe glad to serve you in that
way.
In the meantime, thanks so muchfor slicing some time off for us
(18:54):
today.Thank you again. Gene,make it a great day and be
blessed.
Hey,
Jonathan Hardy (18:59):
Hey, Jonathan, here real quick before you go,
everything in your ministryrises and falls on your
leadership. So investing in yourleadership is essential to
staying healthy and growing theministry, and that's why I want
to invite you to join us insidethe Leaders.Church membership,
this online streaming servicefor pastors gives you access to
more than300 videos plustraining material to level up
your leadership and improve yourministry skills. If you'd like
(19:20):
to do that, I want to invite youto go to Leaders.Church/boost.
Again, that'sLeaders.Church/boost. Well,
thanks again for joining us onthe Church Tips Podcast. We'll
look forward to seeing you nexttime.
Unknown (19:42):
you
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.