September 1, 2025 • 70 mins
Join Johnny B, Jay Harper, and Jim McCarthy as they dive deep into the wild, unfiltered world of radio's golden era. From cigarettes in the studio to celebrity encounters gone wrong, these veteran broadcasters share hilarious and heartfelt stories about the days when radio was pure theater of the mind. Hear about Phil Valentine's close calls, Steve Earle's contentious interviews, and why Naomi Judd made such a lasting impression. Plus, the hosts discuss how corporate takeovers killed radio's soul and why podcasting might be the industry's salvation.
**[0:00 - 2:15]** - The Jack Kemp Ego Check: How Phil Valentine's national show got a reality check from a confused politician
**[2:15 - 8:30]** - Radio's Wild West Days: Stories of on-air smoking, pizza, and the "dance" of operating vintage equipment
**[8:30 - 15:45]** - Celebrity Memory Lane: Donald Trump Jr.'s photographic memory and Steve Warner's Christmas connection to Chet Atkins
**[15:45 - 25:20]** - The Great Radio Fire: When a joint nearly burned down a station and dad showed up in his pajamas
**[25:20 - 35:40]** - Meeting the Judds: Naomi's warmth, Wynonna's bicycle rides, and sunglasses in the studio
**[35:40 - 48:15]** - Steve Earle Chronicles: From rockabilly rejection to "Copperhead Road" at a banker's reception
**[48:15 - 58:30]** - Political Landmines: How the Dixie Chicks, Steve Earle, and others learned that politics can kill careers
**[58:30 - End]** - Death of Old Radio: Corporate takeovers, the rise of podcasting, and why the future belongs to independent creators
Follow Johnny B:
https://www.facebook.com/john.e.bozeman
Follow Jay Harper:
https://www.facebook.com/harperjeff
Follow Jim:
Circling The Drain is produced by It's Your Show dot Co
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Unknown (00:00):
I had to kill Phil's ego one time.
This we had an ego. This was
a small one, but he he had JackKemp on one time. And when he
was running with Bob Dole, and Iwas on the phone while they're
trying to get jack, and they go,now, Jack, this is the Phil
Valentine show. It's nationwide,and all sudden, here Jack Kemp
(00:23):
go, and who is it? I said, Phil,Valentine. Phil, who Valentine?
Like Valentine's Day? And wherehe's out of well, he's pretty
much national, okay, later on inthe interview, as he's talking
to Phil, all of a sudden, whenPhil asked him a question. Jack,
of course, starts the answer,Well, Phil, it's like you say on
(00:45):
your show. And he said, I listento you dailies, and love the
show. Oh, my God.
Welcome to a podcast about musicand entertainment before it all
goes down the disposal. This iscircling the drain.
(01:08):
Welcome back to circling thedrain, the podcast that wants to
keep the entertainment the musicworld, keep it from going down
the garbage disposal as we say,Hi, my name is John E Bozeman,
but you know me better as JohnnyB, along with Jay Harper, my co
host. Hey, Johnny B, how youdoing my brother?
Hey, always doing great. WhatI'm with you
(01:29):
and brother, Chris. Chris,
yes, I'm Chris. I'll be brotherChris. Brother Chris, I'll be
brother Chris slash Jim.
Jim McCarthy, no man, you'rejust so used to having producers
named Chris. I am. That's
where it came from. Chris,whatever you want me to be.
Yeah. Brother Jim McCarthy here,dude, that's happened to me too.
(01:53):
Just call me Joe Biden.
But anyway, welcome to circlingthe drain podcast where we talk
about everything entertainment,everything music. But today we
wanted to talk about some of ourfavorite stories. And I know you
guys will be interested in ittoo, because radio is a very
(02:14):
interesting business.
We do that in lieu of the payyes experiences,
and it's getting moreinteresting, but for totally
different reasons.
Oh, yeah, that's the truth. It'sbecome, well, it's become so
corporate. It used to be. Iremember the days in radio. It
was not unlikely, like formyself. I'll talk about myself
(02:37):
where I might have, you know, acigarette while I'm on the air
with all the equipment thereabsolutely have a cigarette,
maybe a pizza over here. Youknow, there might be a girl in
the room and she may haveclothes or may not, right? Those
were the days. I mean, that waswhat radio was like back in
those days. I it was pretty
wild. It was as close to being arock star as one could possibly
(03:01):
get without the money, that'sright,
and the glory,
you know? And it was back whenbeing a jock on the air was kind
of like a dance, a ballet. Imean, you had all this different
gear that you no longer use. Youhad turntables going cart
(03:23):
machine. You had cart machines.And I know people, there are
those. I will mention cartmachines to folks, and they,
they got the puzzled look, thosesame eight track, yeah. I mean,
that's what people can relateto. It's kind of like a one
track, eight track, exactly. Youknow, it's what a little but
anyway, you'd have several ofthose, you'd have a reel to
reel, perhaps, going and keepingall of that in sync. And it was,
(03:49):
it was such a talent, you know,and you had a, you know, what?
The console in front of you? Ofcourse, today it's all slide
pods, but back in the day, yeah,income, so, yeah, now everything
is in a computer, yes, and allyou do is key the mic and the
computer does everything else.And in some respects, it's kind
(04:10):
of cool. But yes, I do miss thethe dance, if you will.
And we also had the Q burn too.Remember that you'd be playing
vinyl, and had been played somuch that at the front of it
you'd start the record,
that'd be get to where you wouldhear those songs on other
stations. Yes, and it didn'tsound right because it didn't
(04:33):
have the Cuber Exactly, exactly,
but where's the Q burn at man,wait a minute. It was very
interesting too. There was anartist, Deborah Allen, we both.
She's an artist here inNashville, and she had a big hit
called baby. I
lied. 1983 Yes. Got to numberfour. Yes, it
did. And it crossed over to seetheir radio guy. But it also
(04:55):
crossed over to pop too. And Itook a chance on the record and
I got. But because we had toanswer to Nashville, I was
working in Birmingham at thetime, and I had to answer to
Nashville, and they were reallyon me. They said, Why are you
going with this record? She'sunknown, really. And I said, I'm
telling you, this record isgoing to be hit. And thank God
(05:17):
it was, because otherwise,that's what really been hot
water.
She was on RCA Records at thetime. That certainly helped.
When she was gorgeous. Oh, thattoo. And a fine songwriter. I
mean, a great singer, right? Shewas married to Ray Van Hoy at
the time. She was also a finesongwriter, yeah, so you know,
she had some street cred,certainly from a songwriter,
(05:39):
from a musician standpoint, yes,she did the radio people, a lot
of radio people didn't know whoshe was, or didn't think she was
going to go anywhere, but I did.And what really drove me crazy
about that record was that atthe end, as it's fading out, she
hits this great high note. And Iwould, I would not talk until
(06:01):
she hit that high note. I mean,I would even crank up the volume
because I thought, how stupid.Why did they not, you know? Why
did they not leave, leave thatin there, then fade out after
that. But anyway, that's radiofor you. Yeah,
all those fun things,
yeah. I mean, I remember, youknow, Deborah Allen came to the
station I was working at at thetime with her, with her RCA rep.
(06:23):
Jack Weston was the RCA guy. Ialways wonder what happened to
Jack, but he was a good dudeanyway, yeah, you know, they
came we, you know, we did thelunch thing and all that. And,
you know, she, she's out thereagain now. She just released new
stuff. Oh yeah, yeah. And she'sgot a big show coming up in
Franklin,
yeah, she does, which is righthere in our Yeah, backyard, so
(06:46):
to speak, Franklin theater, Ithink,
yeah, yeah, correct. So she'sstill out there doing her thing.
Yeah,
she's really good. But I justremember stuff like that. I also
remember, I don't know if youguys ever went through this or
not, but I'm on the air. It wasin Nashville, and I was doing
the midday show, and it wasSteve Warner had just come out,
(07:08):
and I think he had a song. Ithink it was, I forget the song
now, but anyway, I didn't know alot about Steve Warner, and all
of a sudden, I'm told by themusic director, oh, my God,
you're supposed to do aninterview with Steve Warner. And
I said, really? I said, when shegoes, now I know nothing about
(07:32):
Steve Warner, and she goes,Well, we're just gonna have to
wing it. And I got to meet Steveafter it's very interesting,
because I've met more countryartists after doing talk radio
than I did music radio. And Imet Steve, and I said, Man, I
don't and he didn't remember theinterview, but I said I always
(07:54):
felt embarrassed because I saidI didn't know a lot about you.
The only thing I knew was thathe had he shared a birthday with
Barbara Mandrell, which isChristmas day. That's right,
Christmas. And so I went withthat and started there, and just
let him kind
of Steve's the kind of guy, youknow, you say, Hey, how you
doing? And he'll talk for 30minutes. Oh, he was great, yeah.
(08:17):
I mean, I first met him when Iwas working radio, and he played
a nightclub in town, and at thetime, I mean, you know, he was
on RCA, and he had some hits,lonely women make good lovers,
so, yeah, Midnight fire andwhich were all pretty good
tunes, but didn't really knowmuch about him either. But then
realized, when I saw him inconcert for the first time that
(08:39):
he could just pick the hell outof a guitar. He's just a
fantastic guitarist. And Iremember, after the she was
standing at the bar, and I wentup, you know, introduced myself
with so and so radio, man, Ididn't realize, God, what a
great guitar player you are.Blah, blah, blah. Well, it was
years, a few years later, when Iworked for MCA, and he was on
MCA at the at that time, yeah,and he remembered me, either
(09:01):
that or he was real good BS or,you know, I had mentioned Hey
man, you know, I saw you at thisbar, and he said he remembered
me, but Yeah, Steve got to beone of those guys that that I
kind of got to know a bit duringthe MCA Records days. And you're
right. I mean, not a and what'sso disgusting. I mean, Steve's
(09:23):
like 70 now or so, and he stilllooks like he's 12. Yeah, he
does. He's got, he's always beenyoung, young looking. You know,
when
you're right about his playing.It was very interesting, because
when I when I worked with PhilValentine on talk radio, it was
around Christmas, and I wasplaying Christmas bumpers, and I
was playing one by Steve, and tome, and I said it on the air. I
(09:49):
said, Man, this hauntinglysounds like Chet Atkins, who had
passed away by that time, Stevecalled into the show and he
said, Wow. He said, I. Wassitting in traffic, and he said,
I really shuttered, because whenJohnny said that, it reminded
him of Chet Atkins. He said,When I played that song in the
(10:10):
studio, I'm playing a ChetAtkins. I'm playing chet's
guitar in that on that tune. Andso that was pretty
wild, yeah. I mean, Chet Atkinswas a mentor of Warner's, and I
think produced some of Stevestuff when he was on our scene.
Yeah,
he did. And you're talking aboutmemory, one of the best people
(10:31):
I've ever talked to would talkabout a great memory, believe it
or not, was Donald Trump Jr. Hewas calling in to do an
interview with Phil. It wasn'this first, but it'd been a
couple of years, and I'manswering the hotline, and I get
on it, and he said, Johnny B Howyou doing? That's cool. And I
(10:51):
went, Man, how do you rememberme? And he goes, I remember
everything. He said. I rememberwhat we talked about last time,
and he told me. And I went, mygosh, this guy is phenomenal. So
you talk about a memory thatdude that was impressive. I've
never, I've never met anybodylike that, because I've heard a
lot of BS with talk radio. Infact, I felt bad because I I had
(11:17):
to kill Phil's ego one time.
This way on an ego. This was
small one, but he he had JackKemp on one time, and when he
was running with Bob Dole, and Iwas on the phone while they're
trying to get Jack. And this ishow it went. On the phone, you
know, Jack, they're talking toJack, and they go, now, Jack,
(11:39):
this is the Phil Valentine show.It's nationwide, and, you know
they this is when we weresending all sudden. Here Jack
Kemp go. And who is it? I said,Phil Valentine. Phil, who
Valentine? Like Valentine's Day?And where he's out of, well,
he's pretty much national, okay,later on in the interview, as
(12:01):
he's talking to Phil, all of asudden, when Phil asked him a
question, Jack, of course,starts the answer, Well, Phil,
it's like you say on your show.And he said, I listen to you
daily. He said, love the show.Oh, my God. I hate,
(12:23):
man, happened to me with Alanthick? Really? Remember Alan? I
remember America's dad, yes. Sohe, actually, he wasn't doing an
interview with the radiostation. It was in Las Vegas,
and he, he came in to recordcommercials for a timeshare
because he was the guy theyhired as the spokesperson. And
(12:44):
there was a whole bunch of otheractors, if you will, that came
into the station and were tryingto play like the cast. So they
wanted us to set up our talkstudio so they could all be
around it and record thecommercial. I'm like, no
production studio guys. This ishow we work. And they were so
Prima Donna, I mean, they werelike, Well, I'm not sure how we
can really get into character.I'm like, Dude, it's a
(13:06):
commercial for a flipping timeshift. And Alan thick is just
like, Guys, let's just get, youknow, he's just up next to my
mic, and he was like, let's justget, Let's hammer it out. We'll
get it. We'll get it taken careof. So anyway, we get it done.
All big hullabaloo andeverything, all like, I've never
had to cater to people's egos,not his. Yeah, there's like,
Yeah, nobody knows who you guysare, you know. So they all
(13:28):
leave. He had to come back anddo some pickups. And I only
maybe worked for them. Workedwith him for maybe 45 minutes
during that day. So you know, hewas coming in again maybe a
month later, and I get a callfrom the downstairs, like, you
know, your guest is here. Okay,let me go down and get him, and
I, you know, circle around, opena door, and I'm like, Hey, Mr.
Thick. He's like, hey Jim. I'mlike, Oh, wow. Oh, my good on
(13:51):
you, man. You remembered me, anda lot of what a great guy. See,
I love people, like, they gottado. It restores your faith in
humanity.
Now, see, I'm bad because I I'mbad with Nate. Yeah,
you don't say.
I think that's maybe why I lostmy last gig, the new PD, you
know when you've been up for along time? Yeah, it was one of
(14:14):
those mornings when I didn't getenough sleep the night before,
which is about every morning,right? Yeah, and
Paul is guy's name, real nice.Yes, he is really nice guy. And
I, you know, I felt bad for him.He had to fire me because I
don't think he really felt goodabout doing it. But anyway, I
Yeah, firing legends. I see himone more,
(14:37):
and I think I called him Dave.Hey, Dave. Dave, Paul, you gotta
forgive me.
Oh, speaking of Miss. Miss, likemissing someone's name. This is
actually a fair story, so Ican't I'm thinking of who the
guy was. So he comes into thestudio and it. Was Colin Hay.
(15:02):
Oh, yeah, from work. Men atWork. Men at Work. Yeah. And
we're gonna have him on anothershow that we're producing on the
side, live here at one time. Iguess so. Yeah, I guess so. So
he comes in and I'm on the phonewith my wife, and I'm like, Hey,
I gotta let you go. We're we'reabout to do this podcast with
the guest is here. She's like,Oh, who is it? I'm like, oh,
it's Colin Ray. And he's sittingright across from and I'm going,
(15:23):
oh, and I kind of look at him,he starts laughing, like, kind
of you see his shoulders moving,and I'm like, did I totally oh
my gosh, you're calling Hey. Isaid, Come on, man, honest
mistake here. I mean, I knewkind of who you were. I know. Oh
my gosh. Let me shut up. Let meget the shoe out of my mouth.
(15:44):
Gosh,
oh man, it's tough. Hey, youknow it just is, it's just is.
But, yeah, there's been a lot ofgreat radio stories. I think
the, I think the the funniestone I can remember involves my
father and kind of me too, in aroundabout way, because at the
(16:04):
time I was it was during my sinin day, there were a couple of
us at the station that wereimbibing, you know, we, we
smoked the devil's lettuce atthe time, and one of us was kind
of stupid when it came to it. Hedidn't use good common sense.
(16:26):
But I was at family dinner onetime, and it was a Sunday, and
dad had a habit on Sundays ofnot ever getting out of, you
know, like he'd always bewearing the robe and his
pajamas, and we're around thedinner table, and all of a
sudden the phone rings, and it'sa radio station, and the buddy
(16:49):
of mine that's jocking that dayhad the great idea that, man,
I'll just nobody's here. I'lljust smoke a joint while I'm on
the air. So to light the joint,he uses a match, and the match
(17:10):
he after he lit the joint, hethrows the match in the waste
paper basket, which isunderneath the console. The
match is not out. He thinks itis, but it's not, and probably
in the shape he's in, he doesn'tnotice that it's smoldering.
(17:31):
It's starting to smoke. The firegot so bad that it fried the
wires on the board knock thestation off the air. Oh, fun.
And so we're we're all eatingdinner, and dad gets this, gets
(17:51):
the news, and then he tellseverybody what's happened, and
the whole family's eyes look atme like I did it, and I'm
thinking, I wasn't there. I wasright here. For once, it wasn't
me, but they and even made abook. This the program director,
whose name was Don Keith, greatguy. He has been really
(18:15):
successful with books. In fact,one of his novels became a movie
and starred Gerard Butler,really, but, yeah, the guy, but
he wrote a great book aboutradio called Wizard of the wind.
And in fact, I get a, I'm, uh, Iget a dedication amongst
(18:35):
hundreds of other radio peoplecool, which made me feel, in
fact, my name was right next toJerry houses. And wow, yeah,
that made me feel really good.It's a big deal, man. But don
tells the story in there, kindof, and he said, he said he
never forgot the image of myfather pulling up in the back
(18:55):
lot, getting out of the car withhis robe and pajamas, running up
to the station. And of course,that guy ended up getting
fired. Yeah, I would imagine.So, I mean, how long did it take
to get back on the other that'sa major, that's a major. I
forget, it took a while. Yeah,it took a while. And,
yeah, that was probably back inthe days when you couldn't just
(19:18):
shift everything over to aproduction studio and operate
out. Well, I think they mayhave, yeah, they may have done
that so, but, you know, talkingabout the radio. So, you know,
you go way back in radio, whenstations were mostly Mom and Pop
owned, yes, before all of the,you know, corporate conglomerate
(19:38):
stuff, and those people, youknow, like your father, you you
talked in another podcast abouthaving personal relationships
with Jimmy Dean and Ron Clarkand all. Oh, yeah, you know,
back then those Mom and Popowners, they had those
relationships with with artistsand stuff. They would stay over
at their houses and this kind ofthing. Uh. A guy that I worked
(20:01):
for in Baton Rouge. He was camefrom Mississippi Mom and Pop.
Guy who bought that station. Hebought an am when am radio was
big, but bought it like in thelate 50s, yeah, and that was the
they were the king of the worldin radio. Then he put an FM on
the air in 1969 that was, Ithink, the second country FM in
(20:23):
the nation at the time, becausethat was, that was new kind of,
you know, the FM radio to put acountry station on it. Most FM
stations, you know, were, like,beautiful, you know, that's
Andre Castellon. It's another,you know, all that beautiful
music stuff. But, but anyway, inthe back in the 50s, he owned
(20:44):
stations in Mississippi, and forI think it was Elvis, like stood
him up or something for aconcert that they were doing. So
he consequently hated Elvis. Andif you played Elvis on the
station, you would get a bigtime reprimand because he hated
(21:05):
Elvis, regardless of the factthat Elvis was Elvis. Well,
yeah, you know, but yeah, youcouldn't play Elvis because he
was still, like, you know, 25years later, still pissed at
Elvis because he stood him up ata concert or
something. See, I neverunderstood that they when I
lived in Wichita, there was abig station. There was kfdi, may
(21:27):
still be a big country. Oh yeah,I used
to promote that station. Mike
oatman was the owner, and he Oh,yes, I remember him. He did. A
dad hated Yeah. And Mike hatedmy dad because they were, they
were really, I mean, they were,they were basically fighting the
radio wars. But anyway, MikeOakman really made me mad one
(21:50):
day, because it was when WaylonJennings put out, are you ready
for the country? And he'splaying the song on the air, are
you ready for the country? Andit had a line in it, which I
thought, Man, that's a greatline. Said talking to a
preacher, said God was on hisside, talking to the pusher,
they both were selling high. AndI thought, Man, that's a great
(22:12):
line. Right after it plays, allof a sudden you hear the record
come off. Mike says, We're notplaying that crap on the air
breaks the record on air. Said,I don't care if it is Waylon
Jennings, we're not promotingthat kind of crap on this radio
station.
Well, you know, there are a lotof stations that wouldn't play
John Denver's Rocky MountainHigh. It's true, because they
(22:34):
were taking that as some drugthing. Well, it may have been,
yeah, you know, kind of, youknow, up for interpretation. I
was kind
of like Lucy in the Sky withDiamonds, with the Beatles. The
LSD was actually a, you know,John Lennon's kid brought home
this picture that he painted.So, yeah,
(22:57):
I just made that correlation. Ican see that.
But you also we're talking aboutmeeting artists. I remember, as
I worked at kz country. It wasin Nashville, on Music Row. It's
where curb records is now, andthe studio that you broadcast
(23:22):
out of looked directly into thenewsroom, which they sometimes
use. As you know, they would docelebrity interviews in there.
And my sister at the time, whowas also working at the station,
was doing a celebrity interviewfor some I think syndicated
(23:42):
radio show with a Judd and Naomiand Wynonna were there, and
Naomi was sitting right acrossfrom me, where we could see each
other. Now, she never reallylooked over at me, but I was
watching her, and the whole timeshe and Winona had their
(24:04):
sunglasses on, which I foundkind of funny. I kept thinking,
why are you wearing sunglassesinside? So I was wearing
contacts at the time, so I hadshades. I had some Ray Bans, so
I stuck my Ray Bans on and didmy show like that for a while,
(24:25):
waiting on Naomi to and finallyshe did. She was looking she
looked over at me, and, I mean,started smiling. I could tell
she was laughing. And they endedup coming into the studio, and
she said, I had to come in andintroduce myself. She said, You
really had me laughing puttingyour son classes.
(24:46):
I said, Well, I'm just having
you're making fun of me.
You know, the first time I mether, I was working radio in
Baton Rouge, and she and inWinona. Know as the Judds.
Nobody really knew who they werejust yet. I think they had just
put out their first first tune,but they were opening for Willie
(25:08):
Nelson at a concert there andand I was, I was emceeing the
concert, but anyway, backstage,and I didn't really know who the
judge were either. Really. I'dkind of heard of them from my
record rep with RCA the jackWeston, but Winona is riding a
(25:32):
bicycle backstage in the halls.Oh, wow. Of the LSU assembly
center is where the show wastaking place. So she's riding a
bicycle, and I see Winonasitting in the dressing or,
pardon me, Naomi sitting in thedressing room by herself, no
makeup on. And I was just struckby how beautiful she was, very
(25:58):
beautiful woman. And I kind ofstuck my head in the anyway, I
sat and chatted with her. Therewas nobody else in there, you
know. Again, they're juststarting out. So I guess the
entourage wasn't, you know,quite there yet, right? You
know. But, yeah, just had thenicest, warmest talk. You know,
Jim had mentioned, I believeI'll tell that story, yeah, you
(26:21):
know what? We were off, off airhere, I guess you would call it
about his encounter with Naomiand how nice she was. But, yeah,
just so down to earth andfriendly and but again, I was
just, I was like, I know my jawwas dropping about how gorgeous
she was, but not without astitch of makeup on, you know,
yeah, natural beauty. Man, yeah,yeah. But I'm guessing probably
(26:44):
Winona was, probably was like,she was like, 1819, when they
started something like that. So,yeah, pretty woman too. She was
just, oh yeah, they're verypretty women. So, you know, she
was just a kid bouncing off thewalls, riding the bicycle
backstage. Man, it's crazy. So
tell us about your
so after the after my life inradio, I got into the car
(27:05):
business. The funny thing aboutthe car business and radio,
whenever you tell people whatyou do, they're always
fascinated. It's either afascination with what you do or
a hatred for what you do. Yeah,I found that commonality with
both those Yes. You know what Ihate about car sales. Okay,
yeah, I get it. But I wasworking at Mercedes Benz and
(27:25):
Cool Springs, and I had theoffice right next to the side of
the building. So it was abeautiful spring day. We had the
doors open, a nice breeze comingthrough, and it wasn't uncommon
for people to to kind of jauntin and with their pets, or dogs
or something like that, on aleash, you know, with
consideration. So I'm sittingthere at my desk at my computer,
looking, who else do I need tocall? I really, I really enjoyed
(27:46):
that job. And I stay out of myperipheral. I see a little dog
walking in without a leash, andI'm going, Are you kidding me?
Come on, man, and, you know,following the dog was a woman,
and I'm looking at her, and I'mtracking her, and she stops
right in front of my desk, andI'm going get I'm going, Gosh,
she looks so you look sofamiliar. She about faces, and
(28:07):
just turns right towards me, andshe goes, I'm looking for some
trucks. Okay, used pre owned,you know, we got trucks. I mean,
Mercedes doesn't make trucks,per se, we make SUVs. Yes, SUVs.
Okay, great. You know what? Icould be able to happy to help
you. As she comes walking over,extends her hand, she goes, I'm
Ashley, that's who you are.Okay, now I know yours. Ashley
(28:28):
Judd, yeah. And as we starttalking, and in walks Naomi and
her husband, whose name I get.Remember, Larry street seems to
be the theme of the show today.
And she we went.
We went, we found a car, took atest drive, and everything out
in the test drive, all four ofus went, and Naomi was just all
(28:50):
about me, just asking me, Well,tell me about your family. Where
are you from? How What's yourwife do? Tell me about your
kids. How old are your kids?Where do they go to? Just like
salesmanship. 101, yes, likesomeone trained her. But I think
it was just innate in her tojust be curious about other
people, which I think made hervery endearing. And I think it
was a natural trait, yes, andboy, what a what an impression
(29:12):
she made. And I'm like, I reallyappreciate you. Ashley. Was
Ashley, uh, Naomi was wasamazing. Was absolutely amazing.
She was amazing. She made youjust love her.
I think that's one reason theybecame so big. It wasn't just
winona's talent, which wasphenomenal. I mean, yeah,
(29:34):
Wynonna is great singer,
but you met Wynonna as well,right? Yeah, I did. She's nice
as well.
She was nice. She was not. Shewas a little smart alec, which
was fine, because I am too. ButI remember somebody on the staff
had put a penthouse. It was apenthouse subscription card on
(29:55):
my console to be, you know,smart a and I. I had forgotten
about it being there when theycame into the studio. Of course
there was and why, no one looksover goes, Oh, penthouse,
yeah. Do you read it? Yeah? Iread it for the articles.
Yeah, I just read Yeah. I like,I like the I like the forum.
(30:22):
But yeah, radio,
they're really huge articles.
Yes, big, big old, big old,
yeah. And I, yeah, I post thoseI like, so I
like getting to the bottom ofthe story. But anyway, you
know, we were talking earlier inanother episode about deaths
that affected people, yes. Andagain, Naomi, Naomi, Judge well.
(30:44):
And again, the circumstancesthat were indeed so
heartbreaking.
Well, suicide is always,
you know, my mother was the sameway suicide, if people really
knew what, how it affect. Imean, you're not, you're not
(31:04):
solving a problem. You'recreating even more problems. I
mean, that that's what's so sadabout suicide, in such a way,
the permanent solution to atimid, temporary problem,
exactly. Thing, you know, theRobin Williams, Oh, yeah. But
anyway,
what was the song, country song,back in oh five, it was, it was
(31:26):
kind of like a, I don't rememberthe artist, but it was how it
was called, how do you get thatlonely? It was about suicide,
yeah, you know. But great song,yeah, it was really good song.
And I can't remember the artist,I'm sorry, guy names, yeah,
we're having a tough time today.Yeah,
you had mentioned, like thebreaking the records, yes, and
it reminded me of, like, onceupon a time, how radio had such
(31:50):
power. It still does today. To acertain extent, the record
industry, the music business,really does depend on spins, as
it were. You know, even thoughthere's definitely a diminishing
audience and a fracturedattention span and listenership.
It reminded me of when I was inVegas, actually, shortly short,
shortly before I went there, Iwas really fascinated with it,
(32:10):
and, oddly enough, ended upworking out there. But a buddy
of mine was programming kxte,one Oh, 7.5 extreme radio out in
Las Vegas at the time, in 2000and I remember reading it in a
trade papers this, this had comeout, and I think it even made
mainstream media when it cameout. Limp Bizkit was out
promoting their latest albumcalled the chocolate starfish
(32:32):
and the hot dog flavored watermetaphors. Apparently, they
decided they had a 21 city tourin the US and Canada, and before
they went off to Japan. So theydecided to not play Vegas,
because they had an opportunityto play somewhere else for more
money. So they basically flippedoff Vegas, yeah, when kxte
(32:55):
caught wind of it, and theybasically banned them from the
radio station because theyweren't they weren't going to
play Vegas and Dave Wellington,who is the program director,
Beef Wellington, we call them,yeah, he met, he made headlines.
And like, like, listeners wereout, you know, rolling the the
discs over with steam rollersand all sorts of stuff. And it
was a big spectacle. Is amazing.Wow, just the black eye those
(33:19):
guys got because of that
the Dixie Chicks,
oh, yeah, that was a big Yeah,and they blamed radio, but
really, they blame but it wasn'tso much radio decided to do
that. It was the radio audience.Yeah, because I was working at
we worked for Clear Channel atthe time. We were in talk right,
(33:40):
of course, with Phil and Iremember when that happened,
they were getting floodedthough. I mean, anytime they
played a Dixie chick song, theaudience, mean they they did not
want it. So that's why a lot ofthose songs got pulled. It
wasn't radio's decision justbecause of something. She said,
it was because of the audiencebacklash. I always said Natalie
(34:04):
mains would have been a lotbetter off, and people probably
would have thought, you know,it's a lot different. You know,
if she had done that in Texassomewhere, we people probably
go, man, that took some guts,
yeah? But you did it overseas.They did it overseas.
Springsteen just did
it. Yeah, stupid. Well, and thething with her, that whole
(34:27):
thing, was she, she was tryingto win the audience back,
because the worst thing you cando to a performer is boo. And
she said something about thembeing from Texas as from why I
understand the concert and theaudience in England started
booing her, and that's when shemade that comment. And it was
like, you know, that was, um,you didn't need to do that. You
(34:49):
did not need to do that. Butshe, she paid for it, and the
and it's really a shame, becausethe group was really good. I
thought I were Dixie Chicks. Putout some great music. Same with
I love Steve Earl. He's one ofmy favorite singer songwriters.
But sometimes that dude puts his
(35:10):
Yeah, but he, you know again,knowing Steve again, going back
to my MCA Records days, he's oneof the artists I got to know
probably better than thananyone. He's a likable guy. Oh,
Steve's a good dude, yeah, hereally is, you know, he has, he
has very strong politicalleanings, far social, far left,
yeah, you know. But that isnever, you know, that's just
(35:34):
hasn't been anything that's comeup in our relationship, you
know? Well, it's so, yeah, butin terms of his, you know, his
art, brilliant songwriter, youknow, admittedly, he can be kind
of an acquired taste, as far asa performer goes, Yes, but Yeah,
(35:55):
but you're right. I mean, Stevehas said some things that I
don't think if he were trying togo mainstream country, then
maybe some of his comments wouldwould be an issue for him. But
that's that's never been Steve.Well,
no, and I don't think Stevereally cares. No, no. I think, I
think Steve looks at it like,you know, hey, you either like
(36:18):
me or you don't, right if youdon't, yeah, I don't agree with
him. I don't even but I like alot of issues. Sure, I like his
music. And you know, the onlything that I got tired of, as
far as is on stage stuff, was Ididn't mind the songs that, you
know, that he had, like therevolution starts now, whatever
(36:41):
that was he wrote against GeorgeW Bush, you know that that
didn't bother me. What botheredme were the constant political
talks that he would do on stage,yeah, yeah. He was like, I
didn't come to I want to escapethis. You know, he
will get to rambling about that,yeah, on stage and yeah, I, you
(37:06):
know, back again when we weretrying to break him at MCA, we
had the he had a little bit ofbaggage in terms of his music,
Because epic Sony tried to makehim
a rockabilly Yes. In fact, I wasone of the first DJs to play him
in this town and that and
(37:27):
that. First of all, that wasn'tSteve, no. It just it was all
wrong. But you know, when hecame over to MCA in the guitar
town album, oh, what a brilliantwreck. But boy, talk about a
bear trying to get that onradio. And that surprised me,
though. Well, I was, as I say, Ithink there was some baggage
(37:47):
with that. Oh, that's thatrockabilly guy, right? And we
don't play the rockabilly guy.
Well, I gotta admit too whenthat record came out, because
Steve had turned me off when Ifirst met him, because that was
when he was on CBS. He was doingthe rockabilly stuff, and the
program director didn't want totalk to him, and so he said,
(38:10):
Would you mind doing I said, No,I don't mind doing it, because I
like meeting new artists anyway,and I really liked him at first.
I mean, we were getting along.He was, I think he was with John
Lomax at the time. Yeah, that'sit. Was your manager. Yep, I
believe you're right. And theywere both real nice, and I
really enjoyed talking to them.But Steve's demeanor changed
(38:30):
when I said, Well, what are youdoing? What kind of music is
this? He's because I didn't hearthe record. He goes, Well, I'm
doing rockabilly. And at thetime, I was, you know, trying to
be an artist, too. And they toldme that, oh, that sounds
rockabilly. I said, Well, it'sinteresting, because that's what
somebody said my record soundedlike. And for some reason that
(38:52):
turned him. He got, all of asudden, it just changed. He was
real standoffish and acted likehe wanted to get out of there.
And I thought, Well, I'm sorry.I said, So when my wife went to
get my wife, at the time, wentto go buy guitar town, I said,
Well, you're going on your own.I said, I'm not going in there.
I don't want to be seen buyingthat. Because I remembered that.
(39:16):
Yeah, yeah. But then when shebrought it home, I was like,
Man, this guy, this record isphenomenal, yeah, and I really
fell in love with his music.Well,
hillbilly highway was the firstsingle off that album, and it
didn't, I don't know. I think hemay have gotten to the 30s,
maybe, yeah, it
didn't go far, yeah, which is ashame. It's a great song.
But then you know that, butthat, that fat Duane Eddy
(39:40):
guitar, yeah, you know that. Idon't know if that was a Tony
brown idea. Who produced thatalbum, but that was Richard
Bennett, yeah. Richard Bennett,yeah. I mean, he's the one that
was playing that guitar, yeah,but I was working non reporters.
At the time, you know, backthen, you know, well, I say non
(40:04):
reporters, stations that did notreport to billboard or R and R,
which was radio and records,which is no longer around. But
if you were in R and
R, which meant, essentially aradio station could pick its own
playlist, pretty much, yeah,
yeah. So R and R and billboardreporters. I was, I was calling
at the time cash box and Gavinreport stations and big stations
(40:28):
that didn't report to anybody.And I was starting the reporters
at the time were just blowinghim off. They were not playing
Steve Earle, right? But Istarted getting traction with
those non reporters, the Gavinsthat in the Rust Belt, in Ohio,
in Pennsylvania, West Virginia.And finally, the big stations
(40:53):
were telling their record rep,their MCA guy that was calling
them, who was Bill catino Atthat time, I'm getting calls for
this Steve Earl guy, who? So?Who is he? Now, you know? So
that is what started to get thetraction for guitar town, yeah.
(41:14):
And ultimately, that was anumber one album. Oh, but boy,
it took a lot of work, a lot ofwork to get
there, unless you had peoplethat worked at that label,
unlike you, that were not behindhim at all. No,
you know, that's a shame,because it's not a priority in a
lot of people's minds.
(41:34):
See, to me, that record really,I mean, I never wanted to pick
the guitar up again. I thought,boy, this guy is phenomenal. And
in the next record, exit zero, Ireally fell in love with I was
working at a my father and I gotinvolved in a small station
happened to be in Fairview,Tennessee, and I didn't know at
(41:57):
the time Steve lived there,yeah, yes, right. And so I got,
really, got into that record.And then he came out with
Copperhead road, and I rememberI was the only one out of all of
us there that liked it.Everybody else was, oh, man,
he's gone way too far now. Andmy father and I had a bet. I
(42:19):
said, I bet you the album atleast, will go top 10 in the
country charts. He said, you'reon and and I said, if it wins, I
want to play the album in itsentirety on the station, because
I love the guy so much. And sureenough, it went to number seven.
Went to number seven. I wentinto the girl that was playing
(42:43):
music, and I said, I want you toplay this album. It's an
entirety. And she said, Really,yes,
well, I have to tell you myfirst experience in hearing
Copperhead road by Steve Earle.He was and I don't know who did
this or how it came about. Buthe was asked, I guess, to
(43:06):
perform at a meeting receptionparty, whatever it was for Fifth
Third Bank downtown Nashville.Perfect, Fifth Third Bank
downtown Nashville. I went withhim to that. I helped him. I
mean, it was just him and hisguitar, yeah. And nobody really
(43:29):
knew, you know, right, who theheck he was. But, yeah, here he
is playing for all these bankersat this, you know, kind of
hoity, toity. So the interestrates are up 3.5 you know, like
that with their cocktailglasses. Yeah, stuff. Well, you
know, Steve's playing his stuff,and nobody's really paying all
(43:51):
that much attention to him,quite frankly, but he mentions,
well, here's a new tune thatI've not really played for
anybody in public. But sinceain't, nobody paying any
attention anyway, what the hell?So he pulls out his mandolin,
yes, and starts playing thatintro to to Copperhead Road,
(44:14):
yes. And he is just reallystarting to just, you could tell
he was kind of pissed. Anyway,yeah. So he was really letting
out his angst and kind ofdiscuss for all of these
capitalists,
well, and plus, plus, the way heplayed a mandolin. It wasn't
like you hear with the realgentle, no, no. He plays it more
percussive. I mean, absolutely,yeah.
(44:36):
So he is just really starting toget going. And, of course, he
wears those bandanas on hiswrist, yes, and the bandanas
were already kind of sweaty, sothere's just like sweat and spit
flying everywhere. And he'sjust, well, my name's John Lee
patter, you know, just reallygetting it going. And finally,
(44:59):
though, the. Those capitalistbankers finally stopped and just
stood there and took notice,yes, of the song. And I thought
it was such a great song. And,of course, it is, I mean, the
story that tells, oh, it's,it's, I remember, just
brilliant.
Well, the first time I heard itwas in, it was at Douglas corner
(45:20):
when it was still here, yeah,and Steve was just by himself.
He was doing like an acousticshow, and all of a sudden he
brings out this kick drum andhis mandolin and starts playing
this song. And I am mesmerized.I'm thinking, Man, this is a
great song. And then the nexttime I hear it, he's doing a
(45:43):
show at War Memorial Auditoriumwith Roseanne cash and Rodney
Crowell and Steve was theopener, and that was a big
mistake, I thought, because asmuch as I love Rodney Crowell
and Roseanne cash, Steve blewthem both off the stage, yeah,
and he did Copperhead road thatnight, and it had not come out
(46:05):
yet, and it had the full bandthis time. My gosh, the way that
that place came alive with thatsong. And I thought that song is
going to
be huge. Well, after Steve didit for those bankers, he
actually got applause, you know,great song just kind of stopped
and like, What's this guy doing?You know, he got their
attention. Oh, yeah, it was acool moment.
(46:28):
Well, I'll tell one more SteveEarl story, because we don't
want to make this the SteveEarle hour, but Steve was on
Phil show one time, BillValentine. Now, of course,
they're, they're, they'repolitically opposite,
metrically, except for one area.Phil was not for the death
penalty. And that's what Stevewas doing. He was doing a
(46:51):
concert. It was an anti deathpenalty concert, and I asked
Phil if he'd like to have himon. He said, Well, you know, you
like his music. I kind of dighis music. He said, Yeah. He
said, Let's have him on. SoSteve gets to the station early,
and I see him out in the lobby,so I decided to go out and talk
to him. And we had great talk.We talked country music, we
(47:14):
talked all kinds of stuff. And Ithought, well, this is going to
be a great interview. And Isaid, so I told Steve. I said,
Well, I gotta get back in, getready for the show. But I said,
even though you and Phil arepolitically opposed, I said, you
do have a common, common themewith this. I said he believes,
(47:35):
as you do, not quite like youdo, but he's not for the death
penalty either. And he goes, Oh,I know he's going to ambush me.
I said, No, man, he's going tobe good to you. I said he didn't
ambush anybody. And thatinterview started a real
contention between PhilValentine and Steve Earle. In
(47:57):
fact, Phil is in this movie thatthis guy did on Steve Earle
called just an American boy, andthey're talking about the it's
all about when he had that songout John Walker's blues. And
there's a clip of Phil on FoxNews going it's the worst song
I've ever heard. But when Stevewent into the interview, he was
(48:20):
very contentious with Phil, andwasn't very nice, right? And
Phil was being really and afterthat interview, Phil said, what
a butthole. He said, I'll neverbe nice to him again, which is
sad, because Steve's really agood guy. He is, he is, and Phil
was, too. It's a shame theycouldn't find a common ground,
(48:42):
which there was, you know, sothat's right, I gotta tell you a
great Phil Valentine's story,since we're telling radio
stories here,
but Excuse me, but Phil,
when we started on W, L, A, C,was notorious for coming in just
in time. Yeah, a lot of, lot ofguys like that. Well, he
(49:05):
usually, he would be coming inas the theme music was playing.
This is how it usually went toeverything. The whole news part
was over. The weather was over.All of a sudden it's pow done.
You know, the Eddie money songthey used another, I think, is
what another day in LA, I thinkwas the name of the song. But
(49:25):
anyway, the song's going,there's no Phil. All of a
sudden, in comes Phil Valentine.He puts the briefcase down, pops
it open, gets his earphones out,waves to me, how you doing? You
know, the program director isgoing out of his mind cussing me
out. Where is he? Where is he?Puts the earphones on, boom,
(49:48):
there he is. And there's onlyone time, and I think this, I
think this was the end of thedays when he would cut it so
close. There was one day thattraffic was really bad and he
didn't make it in on time. Andhe called me on the phone and
did part of the open on thephone. Very cool, very cool.
(50:09):
Those
things happen in radio.
Yeah, they do. Radio is a I missthe days of the old, you know
when, when you were talkingabout, like mom and pops? Yeah,
that was fun. I mean, you know
the person, the family, or theperson, or whatever that owned
the place was in the corneroffice. Oh, yeah, you saw them
every day. Yeah? Not like, now,when you really don't know who
(50:30):
the hell owns this, I don'treally know, yeah, well, it's
like, well, even the the generalmanagers, the general manager of
the last radio station I workedat. I probably only saw her. I
can count on my hand, yeah,probably how many times drew as
well. I've seen her in thisstation, you know. Well, you
know,
back then, those stations hadstaffs, you know, there were,
(50:53):
you know, there was somebodythat wrote the copy for the
commercials. There was, youknow, two or three people that
were in the productiondepartment, oh, yeah, news
department, you know, nowthere's, you know, there's
nobody
there. Well, there wascamaraderie. I mean, I remember
we used to when I worked atradio station here in Nashville.
It was in Madison. It used tobe, we know it, oh, W, J, R, B,
(51:17):
W, E, M, O, but we would go out,and we'd go out drinking
together whatever, or havedinner together. It's far
different now. It's more likenow, like in the last radio
station I was in, they, they,you know, sales was downstairs,
programming was
(51:37):
upstairs. You never see anybody,no, well, you
know, that's probably a goodthing.
Well, I'll admit, you know,
I'm with a station here in townnow, and I I been there three
years, and, you know, I seepeople in the hall is kind of
(51:58):
like, Hi, how you doing? Right?I have no idea who these people
are, that and I know their salesor there's something I don't
know. Maybe it's incumbent uponme to go, Hi, I'm Jay. And you
know, maybe
are the sales staff still likestaffed to the fullest extent?
Are they dwindling too?
That's a good question. That isgood question. I'm I don't
(52:19):
really know. I do know that whatyou know, the thing about radio
now is, and you know, we've seenthe sales, the income results
for iHeart and cumulus just cameout here in the last week or so.
And you know, radio revenue isdown, but digital revenue is up.
(52:41):
The podcasts are up. Yeah, asthese stations go to more of the
of the digital footprint,
something they should have done15 years ago, but whatever.
Yeah.
So, you know, theseconglomerates, I mean, they're
they're catching on in realizingthat they're going to have to
diversify their their platforms,and not just rely on the
(53:05):
transmitter.
Well, you know, what's sad tome, though, in a way, is that I
miss the old days of radio whenit was theater of the mind,
because I think a lot of I wastelling somebody in radio, this
may have been, you Jay, where Isaid, you know, I know it was.
(53:26):
It was producer of Michael delgiorno show,
and was his name, Jim?
Maybe Chris, no, Chris No, butyou know his name is Jeff. Great
talent. Great radio talent,actually. But I was telling
Jeff, I said, you know, if, ifthe Phil Valentine show had come
(53:47):
around now, I said, I doubt we'dbe able to do dancing in the
booth, or, you know, the otherthings like snowflake, or any of
the other thing, because Philwas such a genius at theater of
the mind, and that's why Ireally miss about radio today,
is the theater of the mindstuff, because now you're on
camera, and it's a lotdifferent. I mean, it's it's
(54:12):
changed, and I'm not saying it'schanged for the worse. It's just
for me, I miss that theater ofthe mind when I didn't know who
the guy I didn't know what theguy looked like, I didn't know
what the girl looked like. Youknow, there were times when
you'd hear a girl on the radioand you'd think, wow, I bet
she's hot. And then you'd, well,that's about anybody radio. We
(54:36):
all had faces for radio.
Hey, we're gonna be live overhere at the Woolworth come meet
us.
I met a guy at a function we hadat WT n, it was for a Dave
Ramsey, when Dave was on there.And this guy comes up to me, and
he goes, You're Johnny B I went,Yes, sir, I am. He goes, You're
(54:58):
not what I expected. And I said,well. You're not what I
expected, either. And he gotmad. I was like, well, you
started Italian radio
people that are fascinated, orthey something they don't like
about you. Or
there was a woman one time thatcame up to me. It was at a UT
thing that WAC was doing, andthis woman comes up to me and
(55:18):
asks if it was me. And I said,Yeah. She goes, Are you Johnny?
I pictured you being fat likeRush Limbaugh
I'm working on I
remember we had Dr Laura on ourstation in Vegas, and you all I
ever saw of her were thepictures we had on the walls and
(55:40):
stuff like that. So it was thefirst time ever, I thought, time
I ever I thought there was otherpictures that came out maybe,
but she came into the station todo her show one time, and she
was walking down the hall and itwas like, oh my, wow. The
Photoshop wasn't invented yet.Like, that's a lot of Vaseline
(56:01):
on the lens. I mean, like aleather handbag, yeah. I mean,
my good and she was, she wascordial, she was nice. And it's
funny about these people whenyou come across, especially like
talk show hosts, yes, Phil, Ithink, was always on, you know,
I'm from what I know of him. Hewas always kind of like, you
know, you knew more intimately.But a lot of these people I met,
(56:23):
you know, I worked with SeanHannity and Dr Laura Tom Lycus
came in one time and did hisshow off the air. They're
completely different. Well, Ialways heard that about rush
Howard, the same thing. Yeah,he's a very shy, introverted guy
and, you know, very appreciativeof people. But once that mic
turns on, he becomes thecharacter, yeah, the acerbic,
(56:43):
yeah.
I think that's way Rush was too.I asked people that met rush
what he was like off, and theysaid, man, very shy guy, yeah,
very kind of withdrawn. I'mreally disappointed in Howard
Stern. I used to really like how
we're talking we're talkingabout deaths in the previous
episode, and we forgot tomention his, uh, career,
yeah, it's, it's well. And what
(57:06):
really turned me against him waswhen Phil died of covid, with
every two other talk show hostsdied about the same time. And
Howard Stern was asked about it,and his reply was good. And I
thought, yeah, what a horrible,what a horrible, yeah. I thought
you were better than that. Andever since then, I just, and
(57:28):
then, when he went real woke, Ijust thought
he became the exact kind ofperson that he used to make fun
of, yeah, yeah.
Well, I understand too, is, Ithink they said, ever since he
married his new
he became bougie, yeah? Well,
they said he's also a lot of hisworkers have said, the people
that work with him have saidthat he really relishes being
(57:53):
fond over by celebrities. Hewants to be invited to celebrity
parties, what he always wanted.And that's what he's playing to
basically, totally and when youdo that, it's over. I mean, he
may as well if you're notplaying to that audience in
front of you. Yeah.
Well, you know, apparently heand Donald Trump were big
buddies. There were times Trumpwas on his show a lot
(58:14):
and, well, even David Lettermanand David Letterman used to have
Trump on all the
time. Stick your flag in thesoil, man, and you draw a line
in the sand, that you're gonnapolarize people well.
And it's like we were talkingabout Steve Earle, Dixie,
chicks, folks like that. Youknow, if you get political, it's
like a, I had a an artist. Tellme, I won't say who it was, but
(58:37):
they were working one of thesecruise ships, and they said
there was an artist that went onstage and started blasting
Barack Obama, who was itpresident at the time? And they
said the audience walked out onthe next night, another artist
(58:58):
came on and was knocking DonaldTrump and said the audience once
again walked out. You're eithergoing to, if you get, if you
step into the political fray, ifyou're a recording artist, I
think you're going to end up,you're going to lose half your
(59:19):
audience.
Well, you know, you look at whatAl Dean did with try that in a
small town, he's unapologeticabout it, even to the point
where it spurred off a podcast,which is the one I produced.
Yes, what drew me to that was Iknow those guys. I know you
know, Kurt and Tully through myrelationship with rich, but the
(59:41):
other two guys, kalo and Neil,who are their other songwriters,
are also legendary songwritershere in town. But yeah, man, I
said I am really intrigued bythe fact that you guys are doing
this because it's a risk. It's avery left leaning town.
And yeah, well, especially nowthat music business, and in
fact, you have. Had when youwere on the radio, you had an
(01:00:03):
artist on that was talking abouthow music row has changed. Yes,
not Darrell Worley, yeah, it'snot. It's not like Daryl Worley
is a
great guy, yeah, with a podcast,by the way, yeah, yes, he does,
yes, he does. Yeah. We're goingto try to game on. Yeah. I think
we can get it.
I think so too. But I thinkthat's the, I mean, I don't mind
a song, you know, like I wastalking about Steve, I didn't
(01:00:25):
mind hearing songs in concertthat I could tell were left
leaning. But it's the, it's thewhen you start grandstand, when
you start making speeches,political speeches, on stage,
and you're an artist. You mean,it's done.
I mean, you know, you go back tothe Merle Haggard days, yes,
(01:00:47):
during the Vietnam War, youknow, fight inside of me. Yeah,
some of these that were deemedto be okie from Muskogee deemed
to be kind of almost right,right wing, conservative but
that's not who Haggard was. No,he was not, you know, he was
more left leaning, yeah, he wasin in terms of his political
(01:01:09):
stance, yeah. But he certainlyhad, you know, kind of made the,
you know, planted his flag inthe sand, if you will, on on the
kind of conservative side.
Well, even Johnny Cash. A lot ofpeople thought Johnny Cash was
conservative. He wasn't really.He was very, very fact. He was
very Al Gore. He wanted Al Goreto he Oh, yeah,
(01:01:33):
but yeah. But, you know, you canbe patriotic, yes, without being
conservative. You know? I meanthe Johnny Cash with the rugged,
old flag, yeah, ragged old flag.It old flag, yeah, you know, and
that, that is just amasterpiece.
Well, if you've ever seen thethere's a, I think you can see
(01:01:53):
it on to be maybe, but it's ahighway men in concert, and
Johnny Cash does ragged, oldflag, and he said, he said, I'm
proud to be from a country thatwill allow somebody to burn the
flag. He said that, you know, inthe audience really didn't do
much to that, but he says, I'malso proud to be from a country
(01:02:15):
that if you burn my flag, I'vegot the right to shoot you.
That's right there. Joe, but,
yeah, radio, back to radio. It'schanged a lot. It had to. And in
fact, as you pointed out, theywere late to the they were very
(01:02:36):
late.
They're little, they'relaggards. I mean, it's, you
know, and it's to be fair. Youknow, you have to, obviously
nurture your revenue stream,where it comes from, make sure
that's that's happening. But,you know, it was kind of a catch
22 you know, to kind of be avery, you know, devil's advocate
approach to this is, I we getit, you know, you know where
(01:02:57):
you're, where you're, where yourbills are being paid, right? But
to kind of all of a sudden tryand pivot. But, I mean, I don't
think anybody could really seehow fast this pivoted. And I was
actually gonna say maybe foranother episode, do a topic on a
radio guys perspective onpodcasters. Yeah, really good
topic, you know. But basically,it's just amazing to me that
(01:03:19):
podcasting kind of did come upright around Oh 708, and I think
podcasting is the big thorn inthe side of radio right now. It
certainly has been, you know,with all the different digital
offerings in Oh 708, it kind ofit crested and then went away,
but it came back with a forcein, like, 2014 2015
it did, you know, and you know,I totally like in my situation.
(01:03:43):
I think I've even told you thisthe time you interviewed me on
your podcast, I totally got whyI was let go, and that's why I
didn't take it as personally assome people did. I understand
there are still some audiencemembers that, oh yeah, yeah,
which I appreciate. Don't get mewrong, I appreciate that
loyalty, but I totally got whileI because I think they were
(01:04:07):
want, Phil is gone, thestation's going to have to
change to stay alive. And Itotally got why they did what
they did because they wanted.That they have to change. You
have to change or you're notgoing to stay alive. And I
totally got it. Didn't take itpersonally. The only thing I
(01:04:28):
took personally was the way theydid it, yeah, and that's, that's
kind of I would have rather hada face to face, yeah, you
deserve that, rather than athat's the only thing I had
against the whole firing was thewas the, you know, doing it by
computer on at home when I wasjust there, just like an hour or
(01:04:50):
two before, where you could havecalled me into an office and
said goodbye, and maybe theywere afraid. Maybe I have an
image of, oh, he might, youknow, he'll. Will. He'll get
violent. He'll, oh, yeah, that'syou. You know, that's me, but,
yeah, I wish it had been donethat way. But I have to say,
though, the program director,Paul, fantastic about it. I
(01:05:13):
mean, he was a gentleman, andeven called me later, just check
on your Yeah, he did. He said, Ijust want to make sure your
eyes, man, I'm cool. And hesaid, Well, be sure to sign your
I said, signed and done. Hesaid, already that's yes, it's
done.
John, you know, as you've toldme, yeah, you know that whole
(01:05:33):
thing going down. Certainly,while you don't take it
personally, it still hurts afterinvest, sure, after investing a
couple of decades, and yourpassion, you know, but, but
you've told me that you've,you've actually felt lighter,
though, that it was a relief inone respect. Well, it
was, I remember the day ithappened, my wife, you know, we
(01:05:57):
were on the front porch, and wewere talking about it, and she's
sitting there bawling, you know,she's crying, and she goes, Why
are you not more upset? And Isaid, Because I'm free. Yeah,
you know, now I can, now I cankind of do some things I've
wanted to do. I'm I'm not. Andto be honest, as much as I love
(01:06:19):
Radio, I'm not a big fan of thecorporations that own them.
That's nothing against thosecorporations, but it's just not
the radio that I grew to love,right? That's not the radio that
I love, and I have to tell you,and I thank you for this, is
that that's why I love this. Ilove podcasting, Jim, because
(01:06:40):
you're right. It's, it's, it'sthe future. You're still needed,
man. And the thing is, PhilValentine, before he died, I
think Phil was going to leaveradio. I really do. I think he
had had his fill of it, and hehad talked to me. He he wanted
to, he wanted to start a podcastnetwork of his own. And I think
(01:07:03):
he wanted to, he said he wantedme to do one on music. He said,
I think he'd be great at that.He said, that's your future. I
think he wanted to do one forPamela fur. He really loved her
and believed in her. And so Ithink that's the route he was
going anyway. And so this justseemed a logical way to go. And
(01:07:23):
I appreciate you for for, youknow, inspiring me to do this.
Very welcome. You know, it'slike when you believe in
somewhat what somebody is doing.That's the thing is that I think
a lot of people see what I orhear what I say. They think I'm
throwing shade on on radio. I'mnot. I'm throwing, I'm throwing
shade on the ownership groups,the people that didn't pivot
hard enough. It's like you'resupposed to be a creative
supposed to be a creativeindustry. Be creative. Yes,
(01:07:45):
that's what's missing. And, and,you know, excuse me, you're
getting your butt kicked bypeople that are in rooms like
this, yes, that are buildingmassive audiences. Joe Rogan's
audiences. You Who would havethought that, right? Who would
have thought that? But hestarted, no seven. Yeah, he did.
He started podcast.
Yeah, he got in there early.Well, I mean, I just saw where,
(01:08:07):
you know, Taylor Swift on thepodcast, new heights. What was
it? 10 million, 10 millionviewers on the podcast with the,
with the Kelsey folks. Andthat's the new heights
broadcast, so, you know. And ofcourse, announcing her new
album, which is going crazy soyou know, she's not out there
(01:08:30):
promoting her album on radio.She promotes it on a 10 million
viewed podcast. And that crazyis that, of course, you know,
that's another level, you know,but nonetheless, it does show
you the power, yeah,
how things are changing, right?
And I think I'll make aprediction a lot of the artists,
(01:08:51):
especially, you know, there's,you know, if you're an A list
country artist, it's about a 20year run, right, right? Some
people are the exception to therule. But I will make a
prediction that a lot of theartists that you know I've kind
of done the thing that you know.John Rich has done the thing
right? He's toured, he's been anartist and everything. He's more
of a pontificator Now, politicalcommentator, they're gonna start
(01:09:13):
turning towards podcasting. Ithink you see a lot more artist
driven podcasts, and when thathappens, it's your show.co. Is
the place to go.
Well, I gotta hand it to Danmanges and Chris and it station.
I used to work at WT, andthey've got a great podcast,
(01:09:33):
right? And Matt Murphy and MattMurphy, Cam Smith, or Yes, so, I
mean, so that's, that's what'shappening with your with your
radio personalities now is thatthey have their own
podcast so we're notbroadcasters anymore. We're
podcasters, and that's why wewant you to return to circling
the drain, because it'll be backand we'll have a great show
(01:09:55):
lined up for you with Jay Harperand, of course, old Chris. You.
Here me. Chris. Jim McCarthy,
Jimmy Chris McCarthy.
Jimmy Z, now. Johnny B, weappreciate you joining us on
circling the DRE you.
I had to kill Phil's ego one time.
This we had an ego. This was
a small one, but he he had JackKemp on one time. And when he
was running with Bob Dole, and Iwas on the phone while they're
trying to get jack, and they go,now, Jack, this is the Phil
Valentine show. It's nationwide,and all sudden, here Jack Kemp
(00:23):
go, and who is it? I said, Phil,Valentine. Phil, who Valentine?
Like Valentine's Day? And wherehe's out of well, he's pretty
much national, okay, later on inthe interview, as he's talking
to Phil, all of a sudden, whenPhil asked him a question. Jack,
of course, starts the answer,Well, Phil, it's like you say on
(00:45):
your show. And he said, I listento you dailies, and love the
show. Oh, my God.
Welcome to a podcast about musicand entertainment before it all
goes down the disposal. This iscircling the drain.
(01:08):
Welcome back to circling thedrain, the podcast that wants to
keep the entertainment the musicworld, keep it from going down
the garbage disposal as we say,Hi, my name is John E Bozeman,
but you know me better as JohnnyB, along with Jay Harper, my co
host. Hey, Johnny B, how youdoing my brother?
Hey, always doing great. WhatI'm with you
(01:29):
and brother, Chris. Chris,
yes, I'm Chris. I'll be brotherChris. Brother Chris, I'll be
brother Chris slash Jim.
Jim McCarthy, no man, you'rejust so used to having producers
named Chris. I am. That's
where it came from. Chris,whatever you want me to be.
Yeah. Brother Jim McCarthy here,dude, that's happened to me too.
(01:53):
Just call me Joe Biden.
But anyway, welcome to circlingthe drain podcast where we talk
about everything entertainment,everything music. But today we
wanted to talk about some of ourfavorite stories. And I know you
guys will be interested in ittoo, because radio is a very
(02:14):
interesting business.
We do that in lieu of the payyes experiences,
and it's getting moreinteresting, but for totally
different reasons.
Oh, yeah, that's the truth. It'sbecome, well, it's become so
corporate. It used to be. Iremember the days in radio. It
was not unlikely, like formyself. I'll talk about myself
(02:37):
where I might have, you know, acigarette while I'm on the air
with all the equipment thereabsolutely have a cigarette,
maybe a pizza over here. Youknow, there might be a girl in
the room and she may haveclothes or may not, right? Those
were the days. I mean, that waswhat radio was like back in
those days. I it was pretty
wild. It was as close to being arock star as one could possibly
(03:01):
get without the money, that'sright,
and the glory,
you know? And it was back whenbeing a jock on the air was kind
of like a dance, a ballet. Imean, you had all this different
gear that you no longer use. Youhad turntables going cart
(03:23):
machine. You had cart machines.And I know people, there are
those. I will mention cartmachines to folks, and they,
they got the puzzled look, thosesame eight track, yeah. I mean,
that's what people can relateto. It's kind of like a one
track, eight track, exactly. Youknow, it's what a little but
anyway, you'd have several ofthose, you'd have a reel to
reel, perhaps, going and keepingall of that in sync. And it was,
(03:49):
it was such a talent, you know,and you had a, you know, what?
The console in front of you? Ofcourse, today it's all slide
pods, but back in the day, yeah,income, so, yeah, now everything
is in a computer, yes, and allyou do is key the mic and the
computer does everything else.And in some respects, it's kind
(04:10):
of cool. But yes, I do miss thethe dance, if you will.
And we also had the Q burn too.Remember that you'd be playing
vinyl, and had been played somuch that at the front of it
you'd start the record,
that'd be get to where you wouldhear those songs on other
stations. Yes, and it didn'tsound right because it didn't
(04:33):
have the Cuber Exactly, exactly,
but where's the Q burn at man,wait a minute. It was very
interesting too. There was anartist, Deborah Allen, we both.
She's an artist here inNashville, and she had a big hit
called baby. I
lied. 1983 Yes. Got to numberfour. Yes, it
did. And it crossed over to seetheir radio guy. But it also
(04:55):
crossed over to pop too. And Itook a chance on the record and
I got. But because we had toanswer to Nashville, I was
working in Birmingham at thetime, and I had to answer to
Nashville, and they were reallyon me. They said, Why are you
going with this record? She'sunknown, really. And I said, I'm
telling you, this record isgoing to be hit. And thank God
(05:17):
it was, because otherwise,that's what really been hot
water.
She was on RCA Records at thetime. That certainly helped.
When she was gorgeous. Oh, thattoo. And a fine songwriter. I
mean, a great singer, right? Shewas married to Ray Van Hoy at
the time. She was also a finesongwriter, yeah, so you know,
she had some street cred,certainly from a songwriter,
(05:39):
from a musician standpoint, yes,she did the radio people, a lot
of radio people didn't know whoshe was, or didn't think she was
going to go anywhere, but I did.And what really drove me crazy
about that record was that atthe end, as it's fading out, she
hits this great high note. And Iwould, I would not talk until
(06:01):
she hit that high note. I mean,I would even crank up the volume
because I thought, how stupid.Why did they not, you know? Why
did they not leave, leave thatin there, then fade out after
that. But anyway, that's radiofor you. Yeah,
all those fun things,
yeah. I mean, I remember, youknow, Deborah Allen came to the
station I was working at at thetime with her, with her RCA rep.
(06:23):
Jack Weston was the RCA guy. Ialways wonder what happened to
Jack, but he was a good dudeanyway, yeah, you know, they
came we, you know, we did thelunch thing and all that. And,
you know, she, she's out thereagain now. She just released new
stuff. Oh yeah, yeah. And she'sgot a big show coming up in
Franklin,
yeah, she does, which is righthere in our Yeah, backyard, so
(06:46):
to speak, Franklin theater, Ithink,
yeah, yeah, correct. So she'sstill out there doing her thing.
Yeah,
she's really good. But I justremember stuff like that. I also
remember, I don't know if youguys ever went through this or
not, but I'm on the air. It wasin Nashville, and I was doing
the midday show, and it wasSteve Warner had just come out,
(07:08):
and I think he had a song. Ithink it was, I forget the song
now, but anyway, I didn't know alot about Steve Warner, and all
of a sudden, I'm told by themusic director, oh, my God,
you're supposed to do aninterview with Steve Warner. And
I said, really? I said, when shegoes, now I know nothing about
(07:32):
Steve Warner, and she goes,Well, we're just gonna have to
wing it. And I got to meet Steveafter it's very interesting,
because I've met more countryartists after doing talk radio
than I did music radio. And Imet Steve, and I said, Man, I
don't and he didn't remember theinterview, but I said I always
(07:54):
felt embarrassed because I saidI didn't know a lot about you.
The only thing I knew was thathe had he shared a birthday with
Barbara Mandrell, which isChristmas day. That's right,
Christmas. And so I went withthat and started there, and just
let him kind
of Steve's the kind of guy, youknow, you say, Hey, how you
doing? And he'll talk for 30minutes. Oh, he was great, yeah.
(08:17):
I mean, I first met him when Iwas working radio, and he played
a nightclub in town, and at thetime, I mean, you know, he was
on RCA, and he had some hits,lonely women make good lovers,
so, yeah, Midnight fire andwhich were all pretty good
tunes, but didn't really knowmuch about him either. But then
realized, when I saw him inconcert for the first time that
(08:39):
he could just pick the hell outof a guitar. He's just a
fantastic guitarist. And Iremember, after the she was
standing at the bar, and I wentup, you know, introduced myself
with so and so radio, man, Ididn't realize, God, what a
great guitar player you are.Blah, blah, blah. Well, it was
years, a few years later, when Iworked for MCA, and he was on
MCA at the at that time, yeah,and he remembered me, either
(09:01):
that or he was real good BS or,you know, I had mentioned Hey
man, you know, I saw you at thisbar, and he said he remembered
me, but Yeah, Steve got to beone of those guys that that I
kind of got to know a bit duringthe MCA Records days. And you're
right. I mean, not a and what'sso disgusting. I mean, Steve's
(09:23):
like 70 now or so, and he stilllooks like he's 12. Yeah, he
does. He's got, he's always beenyoung, young looking. You know,
when
you're right about his playing.It was very interesting, because
when I when I worked with PhilValentine on talk radio, it was
around Christmas, and I wasplaying Christmas bumpers, and I
was playing one by Steve, and tome, and I said it on the air. I
(09:49):
said, Man, this hauntinglysounds like Chet Atkins, who had
passed away by that time, Stevecalled into the show and he
said, Wow. He said, I. Wassitting in traffic, and he said,
I really shuttered, because whenJohnny said that, it reminded
him of Chet Atkins. He said,When I played that song in the
(10:10):
studio, I'm playing a ChetAtkins. I'm playing chet's
guitar in that on that tune. Andso that was pretty
wild, yeah. I mean, Chet Atkinswas a mentor of Warner's, and I
think produced some of Stevestuff when he was on our scene.
Yeah,
he did. And you're talking aboutmemory, one of the best people
(10:31):
I've ever talked to would talkabout a great memory, believe it
or not, was Donald Trump Jr. Hewas calling in to do an
interview with Phil. It wasn'this first, but it'd been a
couple of years, and I'manswering the hotline, and I get
on it, and he said, Johnny B Howyou doing? That's cool. And I
(10:51):
went, Man, how do you rememberme? And he goes, I remember
everything. He said. I rememberwhat we talked about last time,
and he told me. And I went, mygosh, this guy is phenomenal. So
you talk about a memory thatdude that was impressive. I've
never, I've never met anybodylike that, because I've heard a
lot of BS with talk radio. Infact, I felt bad because I I had
(11:17):
to kill Phil's ego one time.
This way on an ego. This was
small one, but he he had JackKemp on one time, and when he
was running with Bob Dole, and Iwas on the phone while they're
trying to get Jack. And this ishow it went. On the phone, you
know, Jack, they're talking toJack, and they go, now, Jack,
(11:39):
this is the Phil Valentine show.It's nationwide, and, you know
they this is when we weresending all sudden. Here Jack
Kemp go. And who is it? I said,Phil Valentine. Phil, who
Valentine? Like Valentine's Day?And where he's out of, well,
he's pretty much national, okay,later on in the interview, as
(12:01):
he's talking to Phil, all of asudden, when Phil asked him a
question, Jack, of course,starts the answer, Well, Phil,
it's like you say on your show.And he said, I listen to you
daily. He said, love the show.Oh, my God. I hate,
(12:23):
man, happened to me with Alanthick? Really? Remember Alan? I
remember America's dad, yes. Sohe, actually, he wasn't doing an
interview with the radiostation. It was in Las Vegas,
and he, he came in to recordcommercials for a timeshare
because he was the guy theyhired as the spokesperson. And
(12:44):
there was a whole bunch of otheractors, if you will, that came
into the station and were tryingto play like the cast. So they
wanted us to set up our talkstudio so they could all be
around it and record thecommercial. I'm like, no
production studio guys. This ishow we work. And they were so
Prima Donna, I mean, they werelike, Well, I'm not sure how we
can really get into character.I'm like, Dude, it's a
(13:06):
commercial for a flipping timeshift. And Alan thick is just
like, Guys, let's just get, youknow, he's just up next to my
mic, and he was like, let's justget, Let's hammer it out. We'll
get it. We'll get it taken careof. So anyway, we get it done.
All big hullabaloo andeverything, all like, I've never
had to cater to people's egos,not his. Yeah, there's like,
Yeah, nobody knows who you guysare, you know. So they all
(13:28):
leave. He had to come back anddo some pickups. And I only
maybe worked for them. Workedwith him for maybe 45 minutes
during that day. So you know, hewas coming in again maybe a
month later, and I get a callfrom the downstairs, like, you
know, your guest is here. Okay,let me go down and get him, and
I, you know, circle around, opena door, and I'm like, Hey, Mr.
Thick. He's like, hey Jim. I'mlike, Oh, wow. Oh, my good on
(13:51):
you, man. You remembered me, anda lot of what a great guy. See,
I love people, like, they gottado. It restores your faith in
humanity.
Now, see, I'm bad because I I'mbad with Nate. Yeah,
you don't say.
I think that's maybe why I lostmy last gig, the new PD, you
know when you've been up for along time? Yeah, it was one of
(14:14):
those mornings when I didn't getenough sleep the night before,
which is about every morning,right? Yeah, and
Paul is guy's name, real nice.Yes, he is really nice guy. And
I, you know, I felt bad for him.He had to fire me because I
don't think he really felt goodabout doing it. But anyway, I
Yeah, firing legends. I see himone more,
(14:37):
and I think I called him Dave.Hey, Dave. Dave, Paul, you gotta
forgive me.
Oh, speaking of Miss. Miss, likemissing someone's name. This is
actually a fair story, so Ican't I'm thinking of who the
guy was. So he comes into thestudio and it. Was Colin Hay.
(15:02):
Oh, yeah, from work. Men atWork. Men at Work. Yeah. And
we're gonna have him on anothershow that we're producing on the
side, live here at one time. Iguess so. Yeah, I guess so. So
he comes in and I'm on the phonewith my wife, and I'm like, Hey,
I gotta let you go. We're we'reabout to do this podcast with
the guest is here. She's like,Oh, who is it? I'm like, oh,
it's Colin Ray. And he's sittingright across from and I'm going,
(15:23):
oh, and I kind of look at him,he starts laughing, like, kind
of you see his shoulders moving,and I'm like, did I totally oh
my gosh, you're calling Hey. Isaid, Come on, man, honest
mistake here. I mean, I knewkind of who you were. I know. Oh
my gosh. Let me shut up. Let meget the shoe out of my mouth.
(15:44):
Gosh,
oh man, it's tough. Hey, youknow it just is, it's just is.
But, yeah, there's been a lot ofgreat radio stories. I think
the, I think the the funniestone I can remember involves my
father and kind of me too, in aroundabout way, because at the
(16:04):
time I was it was during my sinin day, there were a couple of
us at the station that wereimbibing, you know, we, we
smoked the devil's lettuce atthe time, and one of us was kind
of stupid when it came to it. Hedidn't use good common sense.
(16:26):
But I was at family dinner onetime, and it was a Sunday, and
dad had a habit on Sundays ofnot ever getting out of, you
know, like he'd always bewearing the robe and his
pajamas, and we're around thedinner table, and all of a
sudden the phone rings, and it'sa radio station, and the buddy
(16:49):
of mine that's jocking that dayhad the great idea that, man,
I'll just nobody's here. I'lljust smoke a joint while I'm on
the air. So to light the joint,he uses a match, and the match
(17:10):
he after he lit the joint, hethrows the match in the waste
paper basket, which isunderneath the console. The
match is not out. He thinks itis, but it's not, and probably
in the shape he's in, he doesn'tnotice that it's smoldering.
(17:31):
It's starting to smoke. The firegot so bad that it fried the
wires on the board knock thestation off the air. Oh, fun.
And so we're we're all eatingdinner, and dad gets this, gets
(17:51):
the news, and then he tellseverybody what's happened, and
the whole family's eyes look atme like I did it, and I'm
thinking, I wasn't there. I wasright here. For once, it wasn't
me, but they and even made abook. This the program director,
whose name was Don Keith, greatguy. He has been really
(18:15):
successful with books. In fact,one of his novels became a movie
and starred Gerard Butler,really, but, yeah, the guy, but
he wrote a great book aboutradio called Wizard of the wind.
And in fact, I get a, I'm, uh, Iget a dedication amongst
(18:35):
hundreds of other radio peoplecool, which made me feel, in
fact, my name was right next toJerry houses. And wow, yeah,
that made me feel really good.It's a big deal, man. But don
tells the story in there, kindof, and he said, he said he
never forgot the image of myfather pulling up in the back
(18:55):
lot, getting out of the car withhis robe and pajamas, running up
to the station. And of course,that guy ended up getting
fired. Yeah, I would imagine.So, I mean, how long did it take
to get back on the other that'sa major, that's a major. I
forget, it took a while. Yeah,it took a while. And,
yeah, that was probably back inthe days when you couldn't just
(19:18):
shift everything over to aproduction studio and operate
out. Well, I think they mayhave, yeah, they may have done
that so, but, you know, talkingabout the radio. So, you know,
you go way back in radio, whenstations were mostly Mom and Pop
owned, yes, before all of the,you know, corporate conglomerate
(19:38):
stuff, and those people, youknow, like your father, you you
talked in another podcast abouthaving personal relationships
with Jimmy Dean and Ron Clarkand all. Oh, yeah, you know,
back then those Mom and Popowners, they had those
relationships with with artistsand stuff. They would stay over
at their houses and this kind ofthing. Uh. A guy that I worked
(20:01):
for in Baton Rouge. He was camefrom Mississippi Mom and Pop.
Guy who bought that station. Hebought an am when am radio was
big, but bought it like in thelate 50s, yeah, and that was the
they were the king of the worldin radio. Then he put an FM on
the air in 1969 that was, Ithink, the second country FM in
(20:23):
the nation at the time, becausethat was, that was new kind of,
you know, the FM radio to put acountry station on it. Most FM
stations, you know, were, like,beautiful, you know, that's
Andre Castellon. It's another,you know, all that beautiful
music stuff. But, but anyway, inthe back in the 50s, he owned
(20:44):
stations in Mississippi, and forI think it was Elvis, like stood
him up or something for aconcert that they were doing. So
he consequently hated Elvis. Andif you played Elvis on the
station, you would get a bigtime reprimand because he hated
(21:05):
Elvis, regardless of the factthat Elvis was Elvis. Well,
yeah, you know, but yeah, youcouldn't play Elvis because he
was still, like, you know, 25years later, still pissed at
Elvis because he stood him up ata concert or
something. See, I neverunderstood that they when I
lived in Wichita, there was abig station. There was kfdi, may
(21:27):
still be a big country. Oh yeah,I used
to promote that station. Mike
oatman was the owner, and he Oh,yes, I remember him. He did. A
dad hated Yeah. And Mike hatedmy dad because they were, they
were really, I mean, they were,they were basically fighting the
radio wars. But anyway, MikeOakman really made me mad one
(21:50):
day, because it was when WaylonJennings put out, are you ready
for the country? And he'splaying the song on the air, are
you ready for the country? Andit had a line in it, which I
thought, Man, that's a greatline. Said talking to a
preacher, said God was on hisside, talking to the pusher,
they both were selling high. AndI thought, Man, that's a great
(22:12):
line. Right after it plays, allof a sudden you hear the record
come off. Mike says, We're notplaying that crap on the air
breaks the record on air. Said,I don't care if it is Waylon
Jennings, we're not promotingthat kind of crap on this radio
station.
Well, you know, there are a lotof stations that wouldn't play
John Denver's Rocky MountainHigh. It's true, because they
(22:34):
were taking that as some drugthing. Well, it may have been,
yeah, you know, kind of, youknow, up for interpretation. I
was kind
of like Lucy in the Sky withDiamonds, with the Beatles. The
LSD was actually a, you know,John Lennon's kid brought home
this picture that he painted.So, yeah,
(22:57):
I just made that correlation. Ican see that.
But you also we're talking aboutmeeting artists. I remember, as
I worked at kz country. It wasin Nashville, on Music Row. It's
where curb records is now, andthe studio that you broadcast
(23:22):
out of looked directly into thenewsroom, which they sometimes
use. As you know, they would docelebrity interviews in there.
And my sister at the time, whowas also working at the station,
was doing a celebrity interviewfor some I think syndicated
(23:42):
radio show with a Judd and Naomiand Wynonna were there, and
Naomi was sitting right acrossfrom me, where we could see each
other. Now, she never reallylooked over at me, but I was
watching her, and the whole timeshe and Winona had their
(24:04):
sunglasses on, which I foundkind of funny. I kept thinking,
why are you wearing sunglassesinside? So I was wearing
contacts at the time, so I hadshades. I had some Ray Bans, so
I stuck my Ray Bans on and didmy show like that for a while,
(24:25):
waiting on Naomi to and finallyshe did. She was looking she
looked over at me, and, I mean,started smiling. I could tell
she was laughing. And they endedup coming into the studio, and
she said, I had to come in andintroduce myself. She said, You
really had me laughing puttingyour son classes.
(24:46):
I said, Well, I'm just having
you're making fun of me.
You know, the first time I mether, I was working radio in
Baton Rouge, and she and inWinona. Know as the Judds.
Nobody really knew who they werejust yet. I think they had just
put out their first first tune,but they were opening for Willie
(25:08):
Nelson at a concert there andand I was, I was emceeing the
concert, but anyway, backstage,and I didn't really know who the
judge were either. Really. I'dkind of heard of them from my
record rep with RCA the jackWeston, but Winona is riding a
(25:32):
bicycle backstage in the halls.Oh, wow. Of the LSU assembly
center is where the show wastaking place. So she's riding a
bicycle, and I see Winonasitting in the dressing or,
pardon me, Naomi sitting in thedressing room by herself, no
makeup on. And I was just struckby how beautiful she was, very
(25:58):
beautiful woman. And I kind ofstuck my head in the anyway, I
sat and chatted with her. Therewas nobody else in there, you
know. Again, they're juststarting out. So I guess the
entourage wasn't, you know,quite there yet, right? You
know. But, yeah, just had thenicest, warmest talk. You know,
Jim had mentioned, I believeI'll tell that story, yeah, you
(26:21):
know what? We were off, off airhere, I guess you would call it
about his encounter with Naomiand how nice she was. But, yeah,
just so down to earth andfriendly and but again, I was
just, I was like, I know my jawwas dropping about how gorgeous
she was, but not without astitch of makeup on, you know,
yeah, natural beauty. Man, yeah,yeah. But I'm guessing probably
(26:44):
Winona was, probably was like,she was like, 1819, when they
started something like that. So,yeah, pretty woman too. She was
just, oh yeah, they're verypretty women. So, you know, she
was just a kid bouncing off thewalls, riding the bicycle
backstage. Man, it's crazy. So
tell us about your
so after the after my life inradio, I got into the car
(27:05):
business. The funny thing aboutthe car business and radio,
whenever you tell people whatyou do, they're always
fascinated. It's either afascination with what you do or
a hatred for what you do. Yeah,I found that commonality with
both those Yes. You know what Ihate about car sales. Okay,
yeah, I get it. But I wasworking at Mercedes Benz and
(27:25):
Cool Springs, and I had theoffice right next to the side of
the building. So it was abeautiful spring day. We had the
doors open, a nice breeze comingthrough, and it wasn't uncommon
for people to to kind of jauntin and with their pets, or dogs
or something like that, on aleash, you know, with
consideration. So I'm sittingthere at my desk at my computer,
looking, who else do I need tocall? I really, I really enjoyed
(27:46):
that job. And I stay out of myperipheral. I see a little dog
walking in without a leash, andI'm going, Are you kidding me?
Come on, man, and, you know,following the dog was a woman,
and I'm looking at her, and I'mtracking her, and she stops
right in front of my desk, andI'm going get I'm going, Gosh,
she looks so you look sofamiliar. She about faces, and
(28:07):
just turns right towards me, andshe goes, I'm looking for some
trucks. Okay, used pre owned,you know, we got trucks. I mean,
Mercedes doesn't make trucks,per se, we make SUVs. Yes, SUVs.
Okay, great. You know what? Icould be able to happy to help
you. As she comes walking over,extends her hand, she goes, I'm
Ashley, that's who you are.Okay, now I know yours. Ashley
(28:28):
Judd, yeah. And as we starttalking, and in walks Naomi and
her husband, whose name I get.Remember, Larry street seems to
be the theme of the show today.
And she we went.
We went, we found a car, took atest drive, and everything out
in the test drive, all four ofus went, and Naomi was just all
(28:50):
about me, just asking me, Well,tell me about your family. Where
are you from? How What's yourwife do? Tell me about your
kids. How old are your kids?Where do they go to? Just like
salesmanship. 101, yes, likesomeone trained her. But I think
it was just innate in her tojust be curious about other
people, which I think made hervery endearing. And I think it
was a natural trait, yes, andboy, what a what an impression
(29:12):
she made. And I'm like, I reallyappreciate you. Ashley. Was
Ashley, uh, Naomi was wasamazing. Was absolutely amazing.
She was amazing. She made youjust love her.
I think that's one reason theybecame so big. It wasn't just
winona's talent, which wasphenomenal. I mean, yeah,
(29:34):
Wynonna is great singer,
but you met Wynonna as well,right? Yeah, I did. She's nice
as well.
She was nice. She was not. Shewas a little smart alec, which
was fine, because I am too. ButI remember somebody on the staff
had put a penthouse. It was apenthouse subscription card on
(29:55):
my console to be, you know,smart a and I. I had forgotten
about it being there when theycame into the studio. Of course
there was and why, no one looksover goes, Oh, penthouse,
yeah. Do you read it? Yeah? Iread it for the articles.
Yeah, I just read Yeah. I like,I like the I like the forum.
(30:22):
But yeah, radio,
they're really huge articles.
Yes, big, big old, big old,
yeah. And I, yeah, I post thoseI like, so I
like getting to the bottom ofthe story. But anyway, you
know, we were talking earlier inanother episode about deaths
that affected people, yes. Andagain, Naomi, Naomi, Judge well.
(30:44):
And again, the circumstancesthat were indeed so
heartbreaking.
Well, suicide is always,
you know, my mother was the sameway suicide, if people really
knew what, how it affect. Imean, you're not, you're not
(31:04):
solving a problem. You'recreating even more problems. I
mean, that that's what's so sadabout suicide, in such a way,
the permanent solution to atimid, temporary problem,
exactly. Thing, you know, theRobin Williams, Oh, yeah. But
anyway,
what was the song, country song,back in oh five, it was, it was
(31:26):
kind of like a, I don't rememberthe artist, but it was how it
was called, how do you get thatlonely? It was about suicide,
yeah, you know. But great song,yeah, it was really good song.
And I can't remember the artist,I'm sorry, guy names, yeah,
we're having a tough time today.Yeah,
you had mentioned, like thebreaking the records, yes, and
it reminded me of, like, onceupon a time, how radio had such
(31:50):
power. It still does today. To acertain extent, the record
industry, the music business,really does depend on spins, as
it were. You know, even thoughthere's definitely a diminishing
audience and a fracturedattention span and listenership.
It reminded me of when I was inVegas, actually, shortly short,
shortly before I went there, Iwas really fascinated with it,
(32:10):
and, oddly enough, ended upworking out there. But a buddy
of mine was programming kxte,one Oh, 7.5 extreme radio out in
Las Vegas at the time, in 2000and I remember reading it in a
trade papers this, this had comeout, and I think it even made
mainstream media when it cameout. Limp Bizkit was out
promoting their latest albumcalled the chocolate starfish
(32:32):
and the hot dog flavored watermetaphors. Apparently, they
decided they had a 21 city tourin the US and Canada, and before
they went off to Japan. So theydecided to not play Vegas,
because they had an opportunityto play somewhere else for more
money. So they basically flippedoff Vegas, yeah, when kxte
(32:55):
caught wind of it, and theybasically banned them from the
radio station because theyweren't they weren't going to
play Vegas and Dave Wellington,who is the program director,
Beef Wellington, we call them,yeah, he met, he made headlines.
And like, like, listeners wereout, you know, rolling the the
discs over with steam rollersand all sorts of stuff. And it
was a big spectacle. Is amazing.Wow, just the black eye those
(33:19):
guys got because of that
the Dixie Chicks,
oh, yeah, that was a big Yeah,and they blamed radio, but
really, they blame but it wasn'tso much radio decided to do
that. It was the radio audience.Yeah, because I was working at
we worked for Clear Channel atthe time. We were in talk right,
(33:40):
of course, with Phil and Iremember when that happened,
they were getting floodedthough. I mean, anytime they
played a Dixie chick song, theaudience, mean they they did not
want it. So that's why a lot ofthose songs got pulled. It
wasn't radio's decision justbecause of something. She said,
it was because of the audiencebacklash. I always said Natalie
(34:04):
mains would have been a lotbetter off, and people probably
would have thought, you know,it's a lot different. You know,
if she had done that in Texassomewhere, we people probably
go, man, that took some guts,
yeah? But you did it overseas.They did it overseas.
Springsteen just did
it. Yeah, stupid. Well, and thething with her, that whole
(34:27):
thing, was she, she was tryingto win the audience back,
because the worst thing you cando to a performer is boo. And
she said something about thembeing from Texas as from why I
understand the concert and theaudience in England started
booing her, and that's when shemade that comment. And it was
like, you know, that was, um,you didn't need to do that. You
(34:49):
did not need to do that. Butshe, she paid for it, and the
and it's really a shame, becausethe group was really good. I
thought I were Dixie Chicks. Putout some great music. Same with
I love Steve Earl. He's one ofmy favorite singer songwriters.
But sometimes that dude puts his
(35:10):
Yeah, but he, you know again,knowing Steve again, going back
to my MCA Records days, he's oneof the artists I got to know
probably better than thananyone. He's a likable guy. Oh,
Steve's a good dude, yeah, hereally is, you know, he has, he
has very strong politicalleanings, far social, far left,
yeah, you know. But that isnever, you know, that's just
(35:34):
hasn't been anything that's comeup in our relationship, you
know? Well, it's so, yeah, butin terms of his, you know, his
art, brilliant songwriter, youknow, admittedly, he can be kind
of an acquired taste, as far asa performer goes, Yes, but Yeah,
(35:55):
but you're right. I mean, Stevehas said some things that I
don't think if he were trying togo mainstream country, then
maybe some of his comments wouldwould be an issue for him. But
that's that's never been Steve.Well,
no, and I don't think Stevereally cares. No, no. I think, I
think Steve looks at it like,you know, hey, you either like
(36:18):
me or you don't, right if youdon't, yeah, I don't agree with
him. I don't even but I like alot of issues. Sure, I like his
music. And you know, the onlything that I got tired of, as
far as is on stage stuff, was Ididn't mind the songs that, you
know, that he had, like therevolution starts now, whatever
(36:41):
that was he wrote against GeorgeW Bush, you know that that
didn't bother me. What botheredme were the constant political
talks that he would do on stage,yeah, yeah. He was like, I
didn't come to I want to escapethis. You know, he
will get to rambling about that,yeah, on stage and yeah, I, you
(37:06):
know, back again when we weretrying to break him at MCA, we
had the he had a little bit ofbaggage in terms of his music,
Because epic Sony tried to makehim
a rockabilly Yes. In fact, I wasone of the first DJs to play him
in this town and that and
(37:27):
that. First of all, that wasn'tSteve, no. It just it was all
wrong. But you know, when hecame over to MCA in the guitar
town album, oh, what a brilliantwreck. But boy, talk about a
bear trying to get that onradio. And that surprised me,
though. Well, I was, as I say, Ithink there was some baggage
(37:47):
with that. Oh, that's thatrockabilly guy, right? And we
don't play the rockabilly guy.
Well, I gotta admit too whenthat record came out, because
Steve had turned me off when Ifirst met him, because that was
when he was on CBS. He was doingthe rockabilly stuff, and the
program director didn't want totalk to him, and so he said,
(38:10):
Would you mind doing I said, No,I don't mind doing it, because I
like meeting new artists anyway,and I really liked him at first.
I mean, we were getting along.He was, I think he was with John
Lomax at the time. Yeah, that'sit. Was your manager. Yep, I
believe you're right. And theywere both real nice, and I
really enjoyed talking to them.But Steve's demeanor changed
(38:30):
when I said, Well, what are youdoing? What kind of music is
this? He's because I didn't hearthe record. He goes, Well, I'm
doing rockabilly. And at thetime, I was, you know, trying to
be an artist, too. And they toldme that, oh, that sounds
rockabilly. I said, Well, it'sinteresting, because that's what
somebody said my record soundedlike. And for some reason that
(38:52):
turned him. He got, all of asudden, it just changed. He was
real standoffish and acted likehe wanted to get out of there.
And I thought, Well, I'm sorry.I said, So when my wife went to
get my wife, at the time, wentto go buy guitar town, I said,
Well, you're going on your own.I said, I'm not going in there.
I don't want to be seen buyingthat. Because I remembered that.
(39:16):
Yeah, yeah. But then when shebrought it home, I was like,
Man, this guy, this record isphenomenal, yeah, and I really
fell in love with his music.Well,
hillbilly highway was the firstsingle off that album, and it
didn't, I don't know. I think hemay have gotten to the 30s,
maybe, yeah, it
didn't go far, yeah, which is ashame. It's a great song.
But then you know that, butthat, that fat Duane Eddy
(39:40):
guitar, yeah, you know that. Idon't know if that was a Tony
brown idea. Who produced thatalbum, but that was Richard
Bennett, yeah. Richard Bennett,yeah. I mean, he's the one that
was playing that guitar, yeah,but I was working non reporters.
At the time, you know, backthen, you know, well, I say non
(40:04):
reporters, stations that did notreport to billboard or R and R,
which was radio and records,which is no longer around. But
if you were in R and
R, which meant, essentially aradio station could pick its own
playlist, pretty much, yeah,
yeah. So R and R and billboardreporters. I was, I was calling
at the time cash box and Gavinreport stations and big stations
(40:28):
that didn't report to anybody.And I was starting the reporters
at the time were just blowinghim off. They were not playing
Steve Earle, right? But Istarted getting traction with
those non reporters, the Gavinsthat in the Rust Belt, in Ohio,
in Pennsylvania, West Virginia.And finally, the big stations
(40:53):
were telling their record rep,their MCA guy that was calling
them, who was Bill catino Atthat time, I'm getting calls for
this Steve Earl guy, who? So?Who is he? Now, you know? So
that is what started to get thetraction for guitar town, yeah.
(41:14):
And ultimately, that was anumber one album. Oh, but boy,
it took a lot of work, a lot ofwork to get
there, unless you had peoplethat worked at that label,
unlike you, that were not behindhim at all. No,
you know, that's a shame,because it's not a priority in a
lot of people's minds.
(41:34):
See, to me, that record really,I mean, I never wanted to pick
the guitar up again. I thought,boy, this guy is phenomenal. And
in the next record, exit zero, Ireally fell in love with I was
working at a my father and I gotinvolved in a small station
happened to be in Fairview,Tennessee, and I didn't know at
(41:57):
the time Steve lived there,yeah, yes, right. And so I got,
really, got into that record.And then he came out with
Copperhead road, and I rememberI was the only one out of all of
us there that liked it.Everybody else was, oh, man,
he's gone way too far now. Andmy father and I had a bet. I
(42:19):
said, I bet you the album atleast, will go top 10 in the
country charts. He said, you'reon and and I said, if it wins, I
want to play the album in itsentirety on the station, because
I love the guy so much. And sureenough, it went to number seven.
Went to number seven. I wentinto the girl that was playing
(42:43):
music, and I said, I want you toplay this album. It's an
entirety. And she said, Really,yes,
well, I have to tell you myfirst experience in hearing
Copperhead road by Steve Earle.He was and I don't know who did
this or how it came about. Buthe was asked, I guess, to
(43:06):
perform at a meeting receptionparty, whatever it was for Fifth
Third Bank downtown Nashville.Perfect, Fifth Third Bank
downtown Nashville. I went withhim to that. I helped him. I
mean, it was just him and hisguitar, yeah. And nobody really
(43:29):
knew, you know, right, who theheck he was. But, yeah, here he
is playing for all these bankersat this, you know, kind of
hoity, toity. So the interestrates are up 3.5 you know, like
that with their cocktailglasses. Yeah, stuff. Well, you
know, Steve's playing his stuff,and nobody's really paying all
(43:51):
that much attention to him,quite frankly, but he mentions,
well, here's a new tune thatI've not really played for
anybody in public. But sinceain't, nobody paying any
attention anyway, what the hell?So he pulls out his mandolin,
yes, and starts playing thatintro to to Copperhead Road,
(44:14):
yes. And he is just reallystarting to just, you could tell
he was kind of pissed. Anyway,yeah. So he was really letting
out his angst and kind ofdiscuss for all of these
capitalists,
well, and plus, plus, the way heplayed a mandolin. It wasn't
like you hear with the realgentle, no, no. He plays it more
percussive. I mean, absolutely,yeah.
(44:36):
So he is just really starting toget going. And, of course, he
wears those bandanas on hiswrist, yes, and the bandanas
were already kind of sweaty, sothere's just like sweat and spit
flying everywhere. And he'sjust, well, my name's John Lee
patter, you know, just reallygetting it going. And finally,
(44:59):
though, the. Those capitalistbankers finally stopped and just
stood there and took notice,yes, of the song. And I thought
it was such a great song. And,of course, it is, I mean, the
story that tells, oh, it's,it's, I remember, just
brilliant.
Well, the first time I heard itwas in, it was at Douglas corner
(45:20):
when it was still here, yeah,and Steve was just by himself.
He was doing like an acousticshow, and all of a sudden he
brings out this kick drum andhis mandolin and starts playing
this song. And I am mesmerized.I'm thinking, Man, this is a
great song. And then the nexttime I hear it, he's doing a
(45:43):
show at War Memorial Auditoriumwith Roseanne cash and Rodney
Crowell and Steve was theopener, and that was a big
mistake, I thought, because asmuch as I love Rodney Crowell
and Roseanne cash, Steve blewthem both off the stage, yeah,
and he did Copperhead road thatnight, and it had not come out
(46:05):
yet, and it had the full bandthis time. My gosh, the way that
that place came alive with thatsong. And I thought that song is
going to
be huge. Well, after Steve didit for those bankers, he
actually got applause, you know,great song just kind of stopped
and like, What's this guy doing?You know, he got their
attention. Oh, yeah, it was acool moment.
(46:28):
Well, I'll tell one more SteveEarl story, because we don't
want to make this the SteveEarle hour, but Steve was on
Phil show one time, BillValentine. Now, of course,
they're, they're, they'repolitically opposite,
metrically, except for one area.Phil was not for the death
penalty. And that's what Stevewas doing. He was doing a
(46:51):
concert. It was an anti deathpenalty concert, and I asked
Phil if he'd like to have himon. He said, Well, you know, you
like his music. I kind of dighis music. He said, Yeah. He
said, Let's have him on. SoSteve gets to the station early,
and I see him out in the lobby,so I decided to go out and talk
to him. And we had great talk.We talked country music, we
(47:14):
talked all kinds of stuff. And Ithought, well, this is going to
be a great interview. And Isaid, so I told Steve. I said,
Well, I gotta get back in, getready for the show. But I said,
even though you and Phil arepolitically opposed, I said, you
do have a common, common themewith this. I said he believes,
(47:35):
as you do, not quite like youdo, but he's not for the death
penalty either. And he goes, Oh,I know he's going to ambush me.
I said, No, man, he's going tobe good to you. I said he didn't
ambush anybody. And thatinterview started a real
contention between PhilValentine and Steve Earle. In
(47:57):
fact, Phil is in this movie thatthis guy did on Steve Earle
called just an American boy, andthey're talking about the it's
all about when he had that songout John Walker's blues. And
there's a clip of Phil on FoxNews going it's the worst song
I've ever heard. But when Stevewent into the interview, he was
(48:20):
very contentious with Phil, andwasn't very nice, right? And
Phil was being really and afterthat interview, Phil said, what
a butthole. He said, I'll neverbe nice to him again, which is
sad, because Steve's really agood guy. He is, he is, and Phil
was, too. It's a shame theycouldn't find a common ground,
(48:42):
which there was, you know, sothat's right, I gotta tell you a
great Phil Valentine's story,since we're telling radio
stories here,
but Excuse me, but Phil,
when we started on W, L, A, C,was notorious for coming in just
in time. Yeah, a lot of, lot ofguys like that. Well, he
(49:05):
usually, he would be coming inas the theme music was playing.
This is how it usually went toeverything. The whole news part
was over. The weather was over.All of a sudden it's pow done.
You know, the Eddie money songthey used another, I think, is
what another day in LA, I thinkwas the name of the song. But
(49:25):
anyway, the song's going,there's no Phil. All of a
sudden, in comes Phil Valentine.He puts the briefcase down, pops
it open, gets his earphones out,waves to me, how you doing? You
know, the program director isgoing out of his mind cussing me
out. Where is he? Where is he?Puts the earphones on, boom,
(49:48):
there he is. And there's onlyone time, and I think this, I
think this was the end of thedays when he would cut it so
close. There was one day thattraffic was really bad and he
didn't make it in on time. Andhe called me on the phone and
did part of the open on thephone. Very cool, very cool.
(50:09):
Those
things happen in radio.
Yeah, they do. Radio is a I missthe days of the old, you know
when, when you were talkingabout, like mom and pops? Yeah,
that was fun. I mean, you know
the person, the family, or theperson, or whatever that owned
the place was in the corneroffice. Oh, yeah, you saw them
every day. Yeah? Not like, now,when you really don't know who
(50:30):
the hell owns this, I don'treally know, yeah, well, it's
like, well, even the the generalmanagers, the general manager of
the last radio station I workedat. I probably only saw her. I
can count on my hand, yeah,probably how many times drew as
well. I've seen her in thisstation, you know. Well, you
know,
back then, those stations hadstaffs, you know, there were,
(50:53):
you know, there was somebodythat wrote the copy for the
commercials. There was, youknow, two or three people that
were in the productiondepartment, oh, yeah, news
department, you know, nowthere's, you know, there's
nobody
there. Well, there wascamaraderie. I mean, I remember
we used to when I worked atradio station here in Nashville.
It was in Madison. It used tobe, we know it, oh, W, J, R, B,
(51:17):
W, E, M, O, but we would go out,and we'd go out drinking
together whatever, or havedinner together. It's far
different now. It's more likenow, like in the last radio
station I was in, they, they,you know, sales was downstairs,
programming was
(51:37):
upstairs. You never see anybody,no, well, you
know, that's probably a goodthing.
Well, I'll admit, you know,
I'm with a station here in townnow, and I I been there three
years, and, you know, I seepeople in the hall is kind of
(51:58):
like, Hi, how you doing? Right?I have no idea who these people
are, that and I know their salesor there's something I don't
know. Maybe it's incumbent uponme to go, Hi, I'm Jay. And you
know, maybe
are the sales staff still likestaffed to the fullest extent?
Are they dwindling too?
That's a good question. That isgood question. I'm I don't
(52:19):
really know. I do know that whatyou know, the thing about radio
now is, and you know, we've seenthe sales, the income results
for iHeart and cumulus just cameout here in the last week or so.
And you know, radio revenue isdown, but digital revenue is up.
(52:41):
The podcasts are up. Yeah, asthese stations go to more of the
of the digital footprint,
something they should have done15 years ago, but whatever.
Yeah.
So, you know, theseconglomerates, I mean, they're
they're catching on in realizingthat they're going to have to
diversify their their platforms,and not just rely on the
(53:05):
transmitter.
Well, you know, what's sad tome, though, in a way, is that I
miss the old days of radio whenit was theater of the mind,
because I think a lot of I wastelling somebody in radio, this
may have been, you Jay, where Isaid, you know, I know it was.
(53:26):
It was producer of Michael delgiorno show,
and was his name, Jim?
Maybe Chris, no, Chris No, butyou know his name is Jeff. Great
talent. Great radio talent,actually. But I was telling
Jeff, I said, you know, if, ifthe Phil Valentine show had come
(53:47):
around now, I said, I doubt we'dbe able to do dancing in the
booth, or, you know, the otherthings like snowflake, or any of
the other thing, because Philwas such a genius at theater of
the mind, and that's why Ireally miss about radio today,
is the theater of the mindstuff, because now you're on
camera, and it's a lotdifferent. I mean, it's it's
(54:12):
changed, and I'm not saying it'schanged for the worse. It's just
for me, I miss that theater ofthe mind when I didn't know who
the guy I didn't know what theguy looked like, I didn't know
what the girl looked like. Youknow, there were times when
you'd hear a girl on the radioand you'd think, wow, I bet
she's hot. And then you'd, well,that's about anybody radio. We
(54:36):
all had faces for radio.
Hey, we're gonna be live overhere at the Woolworth come meet
us.
I met a guy at a function we hadat WT n, it was for a Dave
Ramsey, when Dave was on there.And this guy comes up to me, and
he goes, You're Johnny B I went,Yes, sir, I am. He goes, You're
(54:58):
not what I expected. And I said,well. You're not what I
expected, either. And he gotmad. I was like, well, you
started Italian radio
people that are fascinated, orthey something they don't like
about you. Or
there was a woman one time thatcame up to me. It was at a UT
thing that WAC was doing, andthis woman comes up to me and
(55:18):
asks if it was me. And I said,Yeah. She goes, Are you Johnny?
I pictured you being fat likeRush Limbaugh
I'm working on I
remember we had Dr Laura on ourstation in Vegas, and you all I
ever saw of her were thepictures we had on the walls and
(55:40):
stuff like that. So it was thefirst time ever, I thought, time
I ever I thought there was otherpictures that came out maybe,
but she came into the station todo her show one time, and she
was walking down the hall and itwas like, oh my, wow. The
Photoshop wasn't invented yet.Like, that's a lot of Vaseline
(56:01):
on the lens. I mean, like aleather handbag, yeah. I mean,
my good and she was, she wascordial, she was nice. And it's
funny about these people whenyou come across, especially like
talk show hosts, yes, Phil, Ithink, was always on, you know,
I'm from what I know of him. Hewas always kind of like, you
know, you knew more intimately.But a lot of these people I met,
(56:23):
you know, I worked with SeanHannity and Dr Laura Tom Lycus
came in one time and did hisshow off the air. They're
completely different. Well, Ialways heard that about rush
Howard, the same thing. Yeah,he's a very shy, introverted guy
and, you know, very appreciativeof people. But once that mic
turns on, he becomes thecharacter, yeah, the acerbic,
(56:43):
yeah.
I think that's way Rush was too.I asked people that met rush
what he was like off, and theysaid, man, very shy guy, yeah,
very kind of withdrawn. I'mreally disappointed in Howard
Stern. I used to really like how
we're talking we're talkingabout deaths in the previous
episode, and we forgot tomention his, uh, career,
yeah, it's, it's well. And what
(57:06):
really turned me against him waswhen Phil died of covid, with
every two other talk show hostsdied about the same time. And
Howard Stern was asked about it,and his reply was good. And I
thought, yeah, what a horrible,what a horrible, yeah. I thought
you were better than that. Andever since then, I just, and
(57:28):
then, when he went real woke, Ijust thought
he became the exact kind ofperson that he used to make fun
of, yeah, yeah.
Well, I understand too, is, Ithink they said, ever since he
married his new
he became bougie, yeah? Well,
they said he's also a lot of hisworkers have said, the people
that work with him have saidthat he really relishes being
(57:53):
fond over by celebrities. Hewants to be invited to celebrity
parties, what he always wanted.And that's what he's playing to
basically, totally and when youdo that, it's over. I mean, he
may as well if you're notplaying to that audience in
front of you. Yeah.
Well, you know, apparently heand Donald Trump were big
buddies. There were times Trumpwas on his show a lot
(58:14):
and, well, even David Lettermanand David Letterman used to have
Trump on all the
time. Stick your flag in thesoil, man, and you draw a line
in the sand, that you're gonnapolarize people well.
And it's like we were talkingabout Steve Earle, Dixie,
chicks, folks like that. Youknow, if you get political, it's
like a, I had a an artist. Tellme, I won't say who it was, but
(58:37):
they were working one of thesecruise ships, and they said
there was an artist that went onstage and started blasting
Barack Obama, who was itpresident at the time? And they
said the audience walked out onthe next night, another artist
(58:58):
came on and was knocking DonaldTrump and said the audience once
again walked out. You're eithergoing to, if you get, if you
step into the political fray, ifyou're a recording artist, I
think you're going to end up,you're going to lose half your
(59:19):
audience.
Well, you know, you look at whatAl Dean did with try that in a
small town, he's unapologeticabout it, even to the point
where it spurred off a podcast,which is the one I produced.
Yes, what drew me to that was Iknow those guys. I know you
know, Kurt and Tully through myrelationship with rich, but the
(59:41):
other two guys, kalo and Neil,who are their other songwriters,
are also legendary songwritershere in town. But yeah, man, I
said I am really intrigued bythe fact that you guys are doing
this because it's a risk. It's avery left leaning town.
And yeah, well, especially nowthat music business, and in
fact, you have. Had when youwere on the radio, you had an
(01:00:03):
artist on that was talking abouthow music row has changed. Yes,
not Darrell Worley, yeah, it'snot. It's not like Daryl Worley
is a
great guy, yeah, with a podcast,by the way, yeah, yes, he does,
yes, he does. Yeah. We're goingto try to game on. Yeah. I think
we can get it.
I think so too. But I thinkthat's the, I mean, I don't mind
a song, you know, like I wastalking about Steve, I didn't
(01:00:25):
mind hearing songs in concertthat I could tell were left
leaning. But it's the, it's thewhen you start grandstand, when
you start making speeches,political speeches, on stage,
and you're an artist. You mean,it's done.
I mean, you know, you go back tothe Merle Haggard days, yes,
(01:00:47):
during the Vietnam War, youknow, fight inside of me. Yeah,
some of these that were deemedto be okie from Muskogee deemed
to be kind of almost right,right wing, conservative but
that's not who Haggard was. No,he was not, you know, he was
more left leaning, yeah, he wasin in terms of his political
(01:01:09):
stance, yeah. But he certainlyhad, you know, kind of made the,
you know, planted his flag inthe sand, if you will, on on the
kind of conservative side.
Well, even Johnny Cash. A lot ofpeople thought Johnny Cash was
conservative. He wasn't really.He was very, very fact. He was
very Al Gore. He wanted Al Goreto he Oh, yeah,
(01:01:33):
but yeah. But, you know, you canbe patriotic, yes, without being
conservative. You know? I meanthe Johnny Cash with the rugged,
old flag, yeah, ragged old flag.It old flag, yeah, you know, and
that, that is just amasterpiece.
Well, if you've ever seen thethere's a, I think you can see
(01:01:53):
it on to be maybe, but it's ahighway men in concert, and
Johnny Cash does ragged, oldflag, and he said, he said, I'm
proud to be from a country thatwill allow somebody to burn the
flag. He said that, you know, inthe audience really didn't do
much to that, but he says, I'malso proud to be from a country
(01:02:15):
that if you burn my flag, I'vegot the right to shoot you.
That's right there. Joe, but,
yeah, radio, back to radio. It'schanged a lot. It had to. And in
fact, as you pointed out, theywere late to the they were very
(01:02:36):
late.
They're little, they'relaggards. I mean, it's, you
know, and it's to be fair. Youknow, you have to, obviously
nurture your revenue stream,where it comes from, make sure
that's that's happening. But,you know, it was kind of a catch
22 you know, to kind of be avery, you know, devil's advocate
approach to this is, I we getit, you know, you know where
(01:02:57):
you're, where you're, where yourbills are being paid, right? But
to kind of all of a sudden tryand pivot. But, I mean, I don't
think anybody could really seehow fast this pivoted. And I was
actually gonna say maybe foranother episode, do a topic on a
radio guys perspective onpodcasters. Yeah, really good
topic, you know. But basically,it's just amazing to me that
(01:03:19):
podcasting kind of did come upright around Oh 708, and I think
podcasting is the big thorn inthe side of radio right now. It
certainly has been, you know,with all the different digital
offerings in Oh 708, it kind ofit crested and then went away,
but it came back with a forcein, like, 2014 2015
it did, you know, and you know,I totally like in my situation.
(01:03:43):
I think I've even told you thisthe time you interviewed me on
your podcast, I totally got whyI was let go, and that's why I
didn't take it as personally assome people did. I understand
there are still some audiencemembers that, oh yeah, yeah,
which I appreciate. Don't get mewrong, I appreciate that
loyalty, but I totally got whileI because I think they were
(01:04:07):
want, Phil is gone, thestation's going to have to
change to stay alive. And Itotally got why they did what
they did because they wanted.That they have to change. You
have to change or you're notgoing to stay alive. And I
totally got it. Didn't take itpersonally. The only thing I
(01:04:28):
took personally was the way theydid it, yeah, and that's, that's
kind of I would have rather hada face to face, yeah, you
deserve that, rather than athat's the only thing I had
against the whole firing was thewas the, you know, doing it by
computer on at home when I wasjust there, just like an hour or
(01:04:50):
two before, where you could havecalled me into an office and
said goodbye, and maybe theywere afraid. Maybe I have an
image of, oh, he might, youknow, he'll. Will. He'll get
violent. He'll, oh, yeah, that'syou. You know, that's me, but,
yeah, I wish it had been donethat way. But I have to say,
though, the program director,Paul, fantastic about it. I
(01:05:13):
mean, he was a gentleman, andeven called me later, just check
on your Yeah, he did. He said, Ijust want to make sure your
eyes, man, I'm cool. And hesaid, Well, be sure to sign your
I said, signed and done. Hesaid, already that's yes, it's
done.
John, you know, as you've toldme, yeah, you know that whole
(01:05:33):
thing going down. Certainly,while you don't take it
personally, it still hurts afterinvest, sure, after investing a
couple of decades, and yourpassion, you know, but, but
you've told me that you've,you've actually felt lighter,
though, that it was a relief inone respect. Well, it
was, I remember the day ithappened, my wife, you know, we
(01:05:57):
were on the front porch, and wewere talking about it, and she's
sitting there bawling, you know,she's crying, and she goes, Why
are you not more upset? And Isaid, Because I'm free. Yeah,
you know, now I can, now I cankind of do some things I've
wanted to do. I'm I'm not. Andto be honest, as much as I love
(01:06:19):
Radio, I'm not a big fan of thecorporations that own them.
That's nothing against thosecorporations, but it's just not
the radio that I grew to love,right? That's not the radio that
I love, and I have to tell you,and I thank you for this, is
that that's why I love this. Ilove podcasting, Jim, because
(01:06:40):
you're right. It's, it's, it'sthe future. You're still needed,
man. And the thing is, PhilValentine, before he died, I
think Phil was going to leaveradio. I really do. I think he
had had his fill of it, and hehad talked to me. He he wanted
to, he wanted to start a podcastnetwork of his own. And I think
(01:07:03):
he wanted to, he said he wantedme to do one on music. He said,
I think he'd be great at that.He said, that's your future. I
think he wanted to do one forPamela fur. He really loved her
and believed in her. And so Ithink that's the route he was
going anyway. And so this justseemed a logical way to go. And
(01:07:23):
I appreciate you for for, youknow, inspiring me to do this.
Very welcome. You know, it'slike when you believe in
somewhat what somebody is doing.That's the thing is that I think
a lot of people see what I orhear what I say. They think I'm
throwing shade on on radio. I'mnot. I'm throwing, I'm throwing
shade on the ownership groups,the people that didn't pivot
hard enough. It's like you'resupposed to be a creative
supposed to be a creativeindustry. Be creative. Yes,
(01:07:45):
that's what's missing. And, and,you know, excuse me, you're
getting your butt kicked bypeople that are in rooms like
this, yes, that are buildingmassive audiences. Joe Rogan's
audiences. You Who would havethought that, right? Who would
have thought that? But hestarted, no seven. Yeah, he did.
He started podcast.
Yeah, he got in there early.Well, I mean, I just saw where,
(01:08:07):
you know, Taylor Swift on thepodcast, new heights. What was
it? 10 million, 10 millionviewers on the podcast with the,
with the Kelsey folks. Andthat's the new heights
broadcast, so, you know. And ofcourse, announcing her new
album, which is going crazy soyou know, she's not out there
(01:08:30):
promoting her album on radio.She promotes it on a 10 million
viewed podcast. And that crazyis that, of course, you know,
that's another level, you know,but nonetheless, it does show
you the power, yeah,
how things are changing, right?
And I think I'll make aprediction a lot of the artists,
(01:08:51):
especially, you know, there's,you know, if you're an A list
country artist, it's about a 20year run, right, right? Some
people are the exception to therule. But I will make a
prediction that a lot of theartists that you know I've kind
of done the thing that you know.John Rich has done the thing
right? He's toured, he's been anartist and everything. He's more
of a pontificator Now, politicalcommentator, they're gonna start
(01:09:13):
turning towards podcasting. Ithink you see a lot more artist
driven podcasts, and when thathappens, it's your show.co. Is
the place to go.
Well, I gotta hand it to Danmanges and Chris and it station.
I used to work at WT, andthey've got a great podcast,
(01:09:33):
right? And Matt Murphy and MattMurphy, Cam Smith, or Yes, so, I
mean, so that's, that's what'shappening with your with your
radio personalities now is thatthey have their own
podcast so we're notbroadcasters anymore. We're
podcasters, and that's why wewant you to return to circling
the drain, because it'll be backand we'll have a great show
(01:09:55):
lined up for you with Jay Harperand, of course, old Chris. You.
Here me. Chris. Jim McCarthy,
Jimmy Chris McCarthy.
Jimmy Z, now. Johnny B, weappreciate you joining us on
circling the DRE you.
Popular Podcasts
NFL Daily with Gregg Rosenthal
Gregg Rosenthal and a rotating crew of elite NFL Media co-hosts, including Patrick Claybon, Colleen Wolfe, Steve Wyche, Nick Shook and Jourdan Rodrigue of The Athletic get you caught up daily on all the NFL news and analysis you need to be smarter and funnier than your friends.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com