August 4, 2025 • 24 mins
Abraham Lincoln viewed the Declaration of Independence as America's moral foundation and the Constitution as the means to achieve the Declaration's principles of liberty and equality for all. Dr. Paul Kreis explains Lincoln's understanding that the Constitution must be guided by the Declaration's self-evident truths, particularly regarding slavery and freedom.
• Lincoln saw the relationship between the Declaration and Constitution as the most important political question of his time
• The Constitution exists to serve the aims and ideals set forth in the Declaration
• Lincoln believed the federal government couldn't abolish slavery where it existed but could restrict its expansion
• The Gettysburg Address deliberately begins with "four score and seven years ago" to reference 1776 (Declaration) not 1787 (Constitution)
• Lincoln's "apple of gold" metaphor describes the Declaration as precious with the Constitution as its protective silver frame
• The statement "the picture was made for the apple, not the apple for the picture" captures Lincoln's view of the proper relationship
• Lincoln sought to harmonize enlightenment principles, constitutional elements, and biblical references in his understanding of America
• His approach dissatisfied both abolitionists (who wanted immediate action) and Southern leaders (who distrusted his intentions)
Documents Mentioned:
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School of Civic and Economic Thought and Leadership
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome back everybody.
We have one of our favorites,dr Paul Kreis, back to talk to
us about Abraham Lincoln and theDeclaration.
So, dr Kreis, thank you so muchfor coming back.
Today's question is how didAbraham Lincoln understand the
relationship between theDeclaration of Independence and
the Constitution?
Speaker 2 (00:21):
It's a wonderful question and it reveals a great
deal about the meaning of theDeclaration of Independence and
the founding.
On the one hand, it alsoreveals a great deal about
Abraham Lincoln, who probably isstill regarded as our greatest
president.
He certainly is very widelyappreciated by people, by
(00:43):
Americans and educators acrossdifferent political
philosophical views.
So this question about therelationship between the
Declaration and the Constitution, I think that Lincoln thought
of it as the most importantpolitical question of his adult
lifetime, the era that we thinkof as leading up to the Civil
(01:06):
War.
Because in Lincoln's view, thecrucial political question about
slavery that's tearing apartAmerican politics, and
especially the 1840s, clearly bythe 1850s that question what to
do about slavery really had tobe answered by sorting out what
(01:27):
the real purpose of America wasor the fundamental principles of
justice in America.
And in his view, the answer hadto be in the relationship
between these two crucialdocuments, the Declaration of
the Constitution.
And his answer was that theConstitution, as important as it
(01:49):
was, was not as important asthe Declaration, both important.
But the Constitution existedfor the purpose of serving the
aims and purposes and ideals inthe Declaration of Independence,
and we've talked about those inearlier episodes of Civics in a
Year right, the laws of natureand nature's God as the
(02:14):
fundamental aims of justice.
The self-evident truths thatall men are created equal that's
of course the crucial one inrelation to slavery.
Equal, that's of course thecrucial one in relation to
slavery.
Among these self-evident truths, that everyone, every human
being, has an unalienable rightto life, to liberty, to the
(02:34):
pursuit of happiness, amongother crucial rights.
Okay, so again, as important asLincoln thought the
Constitution was and he's alawyer he thought we must
understand the Constitution asthe means to achieve the ends or
aims specified in theDeclaration of Independence.
(03:08):
Enormously contentious questionof slavery in America had to be
approached primarily, lincolnthought, through the truths in
the Declaration of Independenceand then, secondarily, it had to
be addressed through thecrucially important institutions
and procedural principles inthe Constitution, important
institutions and proceduralprinciples in the Constitution.
And that meant for Lincoln thatin the Constitution, of course,
(03:33):
is government by consent to thegoverned, which is a principle
in the Declaration.
But through these complicatedconstitutional means, and as
complicated as the Constitutionis, it still gives its real
weight to majority rule,majority opinion, majority
opinion has sort of beencomplicated in the Constitution
by oh, you know, the Senate isnot exactly a democratic
(03:56):
institution and the federalcourts are not exactly a
democratic institution, etcetera, et cetera.
But it still gives weight overtime to majority opinion.
No-transcript saying he's goingto comply with the Constitution
(04:36):
.
But the crucial question thenis well, how to interpret it,
how to interpret theConstitution in relation to the
question of slavery.
And again, his insight is, andhis very public argument is the
Constitution must be interpretedaccording to the overr Lincoln
argued.
(04:57):
The federal government had nopower to abolish slavery where
it currently existed in the1850s, in 1860,.
Once he's elected in Novemberas president, that election
doesn't mean he now is king andhe has power to just do whatever
(05:19):
he wants to do about slavery.
The Constitution it's justclear there are too many clauses
in the Constitution thatprotect slavery, the legal
status of slavery where itexists, but, on the other hand,
according to this principle thatthe Declaration should be
guiding the interpretation ofthe Constitution, according to
that principle, the federalgovernment could restrict the
(05:41):
expansion of slavery intoterritories and could control.
The federal government couldcontrol and regulate slavery
anywhere it was the government,the territories, not the states
being the sovereign government.
Because, in fact, not onlycould it, it should regulate
(06:02):
slavery or restrict theexpansion of slavery in this way
, because this is what theDeclaration of Independence
requires.
The moral principles, theself-evident truths about
justice and rights in theDeclaration of Independence
require the view that slavery iswrong, and so the extent that
the federal government couldrestrict it or mitigate it, the
(06:23):
federal government must,according to the principle of
the Declaration.
So this complicated view thatLincoln holds makes a lot of
people unhappy.
On the one hand, theabolitionists against slavery
are not happy that once he'selected president, he's not just
going to move to try to abolishslavery everywhere.
On the other hand, the leadersin the southern states are very
(06:43):
threatened by Lincoln's electionbecause they don't believe he's
telling the truth.
They believe that he's anabolitionist, even though he's
saying look, I'm going to stickto the Constitution as much as
I'm opposed morally to slaveryon the grounds of the
Declaration of Independence,away from that particular
(07:07):
question of slavery and ofLincoln, lincoln's affirming
something that makes commonsense.
If you just read the preamble tothe Constitution, what's the
relationship between theDeclaration and the Constitution
?
Well, the Constitution doesn'texplicitly quote the Declaration
of Independence, but thepreamble to the Constitution is
the place we look to to answerthe question why this
Constitution?
(07:27):
Because that's what it says we,the people if you get your copy
, your pocket Constitution, andget the preamble to the
Constitution, we, the people ofthe United States, in order to
do the following things, andthen, at the end of that long
sentence of the preamble, wethereby do ordain and establish
this Constitution for the UnitedStates of America.
Well, what are the things, aims, purposes the Constitution is
(07:52):
meant to achieve?
Well, establish a more perfectunion, establish justice,
capital J and this is the one Ithink is also directly coming
from the Declaration ofIndependence to secure the
blessings of liberty toourselves and our posterity.
And it's capital B blessings andcapital L liberty.
(08:13):
So, between justice, capital Jand blessings of liberty,
capitalized.
That's the Declaration ofIndependence, those are the
principles of the Declaration.
That's why we, the people, doordain and establish this
Constitution of the UnitedStates of Independence.
Those are the principles of theDeclaration of Independence.
That's why we, the people, doordain and establish this
Constitution of the UnitedStates of America.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
So, looking at Lincoln's Gettysburg Address
because I think that that is oneof the more famous speeches
that our viewers, students,would know is this kind of why
he starts the Gettysburg Addresswith the whole four score and
seven years ago.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
I think that's exactly why, if you do the math
from 1863, november of 1863,standing on that battlefield in
Pennsylvania, 87 years earlier,four score and seven years
earlier is 1776.
87 years earlier, four scoreand seven years earlier is 1776.
So when he says four score andseven years ago our fathers
(09:10):
brought forth on this continenta new nation, right, that date
is not 1787, the Constitutionand it's not, you know, 1620,
the Mayfair Compact or somethinglike that.
Right 87 years ago, our fathersbrought forth in this continent
a new nation, conceived inliberty, and dedicated the
(09:32):
proposition.
What, oh?
That all men are created equal.
Ok, that's why this battle wasfought.
That's why this war is beingfought.
And then in the text of theGettysburg Address, he calls for
a new birth of freedom.
These men who fought here havededicated and consecrated this
(09:52):
battlefield more than any of ourwords could ever do.
What can we do now?
We have to be committed to thenew birth of freedom that their
struggle has made possible.
That means a new commitment tothe principles of 1776.
What does that mean?
All men are created equal andthe broader principles of the
(10:15):
Declaration.
Now, there is a point there thatand I'll talk about this a
little further Lincoln's viewsof the Declaration of the
Constitution.
It's not accidental.
He uses a biblical phrase sothis is from Psalm 90, to count
the lives of men in terms ofscore of years 20 years and then
(10:37):
more particular years, so tosay four score and seven years
ago.
Scholars have documented thisquite a lot.
To say four score and sevenyears ago.
Scholars have documented thisquite a lot.
He's trying to bring in theChristian biblical tradition
which he hopes might be unifyingas well as giving a deeper
foundation.
Now the Declaration againitself refers to the laws of
(10:58):
nature and nature's God and hasthree other references to a
divinity, but it doesn't useexplicitly say Christian or
Jewish and Christian language.
This is from the Old Testament,as the Christians would say, or
from the Hebrew Bible, psalm 90.
So again it's another signalthat of course he's fighting for
(11:18):
the Union, right the war.
Here he is at Gettysburg 1863.
Of course the war is for theUnion and for the Constitution,
but it's for the why behind theUnion and the Constitution.
So he's trying to pull it alltogether and say that the new
birth has to be informing theConstitution, including
(11:42):
amendments to the Constitutionwhich he's already thinking
about, to abolish slavery.
Our Constitution, our laws, ourpolitical culture has to more
tightly comply with theDeclaration and its principles
than it has in these first 87years.
Source we have about thisrelationship, which informs why
(12:04):
in 1863 at Gettysburg, would hestart with four score and seven
years ago, pointing to 1776?
Why would he talk aboutconceived in liberty that's what
America means in 1776.
Why, dedicated to theproposition a phrase from the
declaration that all men arecreated equal In 1859, lincoln
(12:28):
has become nationally famous bythen because of what are called
the Lincoln-Douglas debates.
He challenges a very prominentDemocratic senator from Illinois
Lincoln's from Illinois for theSenate seat from Illinois in
the 1858 election.
Long shot effort by Lincolnbecause Senator Stephen Douglas
is one of the most famouspoliticians in America and one
(12:50):
of the leaders of the DemocraticParty and he's going to be the
Democratic Party nominee in 1860for the presidency.
Lincoln runs against him,challenges him to debates.
Lincoln becomes famous in whatare called the Lincoln-Douglas
debates.
Now, lincoln loses.
In the end the statelegislature chooses senators.
Lincoln loses but it makes himfamous, and especially among
(13:10):
this new party, the Republicans,the Republican Party.
So Republicans in Boston,massachusetts invite Lincoln in
1869 to a celebration of ThomasJefferson's birthday.
So you can see what theRepublican Party is doing up in
Boston.
Right, they want to emphasizethe Declaration and Jefferson
and the Declaration.
(13:31):
So they invite Lincoln.
Lincoln says I regret that Icannot attend, but he writes a
letter and the letter is aboutthe relationship between the
Declaration and the Constitution.
And he says that we now, asRepublicans, could be very proud
that we stand for ThomasJefferson's principles.
(13:53):
And isn't it a shame that theDemocratic Party, which was
founded by Thomas Jefferson, nolonger really holds the Thomas
Jefferson's principles in theDeclaration of Independence?
It's kind of mocking them,right.
And then he gives quotationsfrom very Southern leaders who
in the previous decade or morehad mocked the Declaration of
Independence.
Southern, you know, statementsthat the Declaration of
(14:14):
Independence statement about allmen being created equal.
That's a self-evident lie.
Or there are glitteringgeneralities in the Declaration
of Independence like who cares,you know?
So he says, but we Republicans,we believe in it.
And so this is the finalparagraph of this letter he
writes, you can find it.
It's an 1859 letter to HenryPierce or Purse.
(14:35):
They would pronounce it in NewEngland and others.
This is the final paragraph ofLincoln's letter.
All honor to Jefferson, to theman who, in the concrete
pressure of a struggle fornational independence by a
single people, introduced into amerely revolutionary document
an abstract truth applicable toall men and all times, so as to
(15:00):
embalm it there he means,preserve it there that today and
in all coming days it shall bea rebuke and a stumbling block
to the very harbingers ofreappearing tyranny and
oppression.
So this is his praise toJefferson, saying self-evident
truths all men created equallife's liberty pursued happens.
(15:22):
So this is 1859.
He's got it on his mind veryintensely that the Declaration
is the guiding principle forinterpreting the Constitution
and the conduct of the federalgovernment.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
So I know that there's also a writing by
Lincoln where he compares theDeclaration and the Constitution
to gold and silver specificitems.
Why does he do that?
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat?
Speaker 2 (15:48):
Yes, this is another extraordinary document from
Lincoln.
So obviously the GettysburgAddress is very public documents
1863.
He's focused on the Declarationand a rebirth of freedom, a
rebirth of American politicalculture according to the
principles of the Declaration.
And now we've just seen, in1859, he's very much got the
(16:11):
Declaration on his mind and he'dbeen arguing about the
Declaration for well over adecade in the 1850s.
This is the key tounderstanding the slavery
controversy.
But we also know historians knowof what's called a fragment.
It's a note to himself thatLincoln writes and scholars date
it to either late 1860 or early1861.
(16:34):
So they dated to the periodwhen he's been elected president
.
But back at then there's a verylong, almost six month period,
because inaugural ceremonies fora presidency were in March of
the of the following year, notin January as we have them now.
So it's sometime betweenNovember 1860 when he's elected
and when he's inaugurated inMarch.
(16:55):
And it's the fragment on theDeclaration of the Constitution
and the crucial word he uses isapple of gold.
So you could find it that way.
And it's again an occasionwhere he invokes a passage from
scripture from the Old Testament.
This is from Proverbs 25.
And this is a proverb said tobe from.
(17:15):
These are proverbs from KingSolomon, said to be this very
wise, judicious king, and it'susing the phrase from the
Proverbs a word fitly spoken islike an apple of gold in a frame
of silver, and Lincoln comparesthe Declaration of the
Constitution to these preciousitems.
(17:35):
The Declaration is the apple ofgold and the frame of silver
around the apple of gold toadorn it and protect it is the
Constitution.
So he is coming.
You know there's talk of civilwar in the air and he's trying
to clarify his thinking.
He never publishes thesethoughts himself.
You can see how this informsthe Gettysburg Address and so
(17:58):
much of what he does from hisfirst inaugural address forward.
Right, so I'm just going toread it.
This is a long reading fromLincoln, but it's worth every
word.
All this and he means america,all this is not the result of
accident.
It has a philosophical cause.
Without the constitution andthe union, we, america, could
(18:22):
not have attained the result.
But even these are not theprimary cause of our great
prosperity.
There's something back of these, entwining itself more closely
about the human heart.
That something is the principleof liberty to all, the
principle that clears the pathfor all, gives hope to all and,
(18:43):
by consequence, enterprise andindustry to all.
The expression of thatprinciple in our Declaration of
Independence was most happy andfortunate.
Without this, as well as withit, we could have declared
independence of Great Britain.
But without it we could not, Ithink, have secured our free
(19:08):
government and our consequentprosperity and our consequent
prosperity.
No oppressed people will fightand endure, as our fathers did,
without the promise of somethingbetter than a mere change of
masters.
The assertion of that principleat that time was the word fitly
spoken.
And here he puts it inquotation marks.
He's quoting the Proverbs.
(19:29):
Which has proved an apple ofgold.
He quotes it to us the unionand the constitution are the
picture of silver, the frame ofsilver subsequently framed
around it.
And here's the crucialconclusion the picture was made
not to conceal or destroy theapple, but to adorn and preserve
(19:53):
it.
The picture was made for theapple, not the apple for the
picture.
So let us act that neither thepicture or apple shall ever be
blurred or bruised or broken.
That we may so act.
We must study and understandthe points of danger.
(20:14):
So there's a huge amount here.
But again the biblical reference.
There's something deeper, andthis is, you know, by his second
inaugural.
There's no reference.
The war is basically won by1865.
He's won re-election.
There's no reference to theDeclaration of the Constitution
in the Second Argo.
It's all biblical.
(20:35):
So for him these pieces all fittogether the Enlightenment
principles of individual naturalrights, the common law
constitutional element, thebiblical elements, they all fit
together.
So there's that part.
And then there's the clearmessage.
I was mentioning this earlier.
The Constitution is for theDeclaration and that means the
(20:59):
Declaration must guide ourunderstanding of how to
interpret and implement theConstitution.
And this is what the Southernleaders or the pro-slavery
leaders and speakers in Americaare getting wrong.
On the other hand, notice hesays we must adorn and preserve
both the frame of silver and theapple of gold, both the
(21:21):
Constitution and the Declaration.
So that's the argument againstthe abolitionists.
I can't just declare myselfking and be lawless and abolish
slavery, because theConstitution right now doesn't
let me do that.
Abolish slavery, because theConstitution right now doesn't
let me do that.
But it's just an extraordinaryprivate document, which then
(21:41):
becomes public, of hisunderstanding of the
philosophical meaning of America, of our political project, and
then the guiding principles fromthe Declaration, the importance
and the guiding principles ofthe Constitution and this should
be this should.
This sets the terms of argument, reasonable disagreement and
(22:01):
then trying to figure out theright path forward.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
Dr Freese, it's so interesting to look at Lincoln's
you know writings that werepublic and then again writings
that weren't meant to be publicbut help us understand his
thinking, especially as itrelates to the Declaration and
especially as we are celebratingAmerica 250, and looking at the
Declaration wasn't justimportant in 1776.
(22:27):
It continued to be importantthroughout American history,
which again in further episodeswe will explore.
Thank you so much for yourexpertise.
It's greatly appreciated.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Thank you so much, Liz.
Welcome back everybody.
We have one of our favorites,dr Paul Kreis, back to talk to
us about Abraham Lincoln and theDeclaration.
So, dr Kreis, thank you so muchfor coming back.
Today's question is how didAbraham Lincoln understand the
relationship between theDeclaration of Independence and
the Constitution?
Speaker 2 (00:21):
It's a wonderful question and it reveals a great
deal about the meaning of theDeclaration of Independence and
the founding.
On the one hand, it alsoreveals a great deal about
Abraham Lincoln, who probably isstill regarded as our greatest
president.
He certainly is very widelyappreciated by people, by
(00:43):
Americans and educators acrossdifferent political
philosophical views.
So this question about therelationship between the
Declaration and the Constitution, I think that Lincoln thought
of it as the most importantpolitical question of his adult
lifetime, the era that we thinkof as leading up to the Civil
(01:06):
War.
Because in Lincoln's view, thecrucial political question about
slavery that's tearing apartAmerican politics, and
especially the 1840s, clearly bythe 1850s that question what to
do about slavery really had tobe answered by sorting out what
(01:27):
the real purpose of America wasor the fundamental principles of
justice in America.
And in his view, the answer hadto be in the relationship
between these two crucialdocuments, the Declaration of
the Constitution.
And his answer was that theConstitution, as important as it
(01:49):
was, was not as important asthe Declaration, both important.
But the Constitution existedfor the purpose of serving the
aims and purposes and ideals inthe Declaration of Independence,
and we've talked about those inearlier episodes of Civics in a
Year right, the laws of natureand nature's God as the
(02:14):
fundamental aims of justice.
The self-evident truths thatall men are created equal that's
of course the crucial one inrelation to slavery.
Equal, that's of course thecrucial one in relation to
slavery.
Among these self-evident truths, that everyone, every human
being, has an unalienable rightto life, to liberty, to the
(02:34):
pursuit of happiness, amongother crucial rights.
Okay, so again, as important asLincoln thought the
Constitution was and he's alawyer he thought we must
understand the Constitution asthe means to achieve the ends or
aims specified in theDeclaration of Independence.
(03:08):
Enormously contentious questionof slavery in America had to be
approached primarily, lincolnthought, through the truths in
the Declaration of Independenceand then, secondarily, it had to
be addressed through thecrucially important institutions
and procedural principles inthe Constitution, important
institutions and proceduralprinciples in the Constitution.
And that meant for Lincoln thatin the Constitution, of course,
(03:33):
is government by consent to thegoverned, which is a principle
in the Declaration.
But through these complicatedconstitutional means, and as
complicated as the Constitutionis, it still gives its real
weight to majority rule,majority opinion, majority
opinion has sort of beencomplicated in the Constitution
by oh, you know, the Senate isnot exactly a democratic
(03:56):
institution and the federalcourts are not exactly a
democratic institution, etcetera, et cetera.
But it still gives weight overtime to majority opinion.
No-transcript saying he's goingto comply with the Constitution
(04:36):
.
But the crucial question thenis well, how to interpret it,
how to interpret theConstitution in relation to the
question of slavery.
And again, his insight is, andhis very public argument is the
Constitution must be interpretedaccording to the overr Lincoln
argued.
(04:57):
The federal government had nopower to abolish slavery where
it currently existed in the1850s, in 1860,.
Once he's elected in Novemberas president, that election
doesn't mean he now is king andhe has power to just do whatever
(05:19):
he wants to do about slavery.
The Constitution it's justclear there are too many clauses
in the Constitution thatprotect slavery, the legal
status of slavery where itexists, but, on the other hand,
according to this principle thatthe Declaration should be
guiding the interpretation ofthe Constitution, according to
that principle, the federalgovernment could restrict the
(05:41):
expansion of slavery intoterritories and could control.
The federal government couldcontrol and regulate slavery
anywhere it was the government,the territories, not the states
being the sovereign government.
Because, in fact, not onlycould it, it should regulate
(06:02):
slavery or restrict theexpansion of slavery in this way
, because this is what theDeclaration of Independence
requires.
The moral principles, theself-evident truths about
justice and rights in theDeclaration of Independence
require the view that slavery iswrong, and so the extent that
the federal government couldrestrict it or mitigate it, the
(06:23):
federal government must,according to the principle of
the Declaration.
So this complicated view thatLincoln holds makes a lot of
people unhappy.
On the one hand, theabolitionists against slavery
are not happy that once he'selected president, he's not just
going to move to try to abolishslavery everywhere.
On the other hand, the leadersin the southern states are very
(06:43):
threatened by Lincoln's electionbecause they don't believe he's
telling the truth.
They believe that he's anabolitionist, even though he's
saying look, I'm going to stickto the Constitution as much as
I'm opposed morally to slaveryon the grounds of the
Declaration of Independence,away from that particular
(07:07):
question of slavery and ofLincoln, lincoln's affirming
something that makes commonsense.
If you just read the preamble tothe Constitution, what's the
relationship between theDeclaration and the Constitution
?
Well, the Constitution doesn'texplicitly quote the Declaration
of Independence, but thepreamble to the Constitution is
the place we look to to answerthe question why this
Constitution?
(07:27):
Because that's what it says we,the people if you get your copy
, your pocket Constitution, andget the preamble to the
Constitution, we, the people ofthe United States, in order to
do the following things, andthen, at the end of that long
sentence of the preamble, wethereby do ordain and establish
this Constitution for the UnitedStates of America.
Well, what are the things, aims, purposes the Constitution is
(07:52):
meant to achieve?
Well, establish a more perfectunion, establish justice,
capital J and this is the one Ithink is also directly coming
from the Declaration ofIndependence to secure the
blessings of liberty toourselves and our posterity.
And it's capital B blessings andcapital L liberty.
(08:13):
So, between justice, capital Jand blessings of liberty,
capitalized.
That's the Declaration ofIndependence, those are the
principles of the Declaration.
That's why we, the people, doordain and establish this
Constitution of the UnitedStates of Independence.
Those are the principles of theDeclaration of Independence.
That's why we, the people, doordain and establish this
Constitution of the UnitedStates of America.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
So, looking at Lincoln's Gettysburg Address
because I think that that is oneof the more famous speeches
that our viewers, students,would know is this kind of why
he starts the Gettysburg Addresswith the whole four score and
seven years ago.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
I think that's exactly why, if you do the math
from 1863, november of 1863,standing on that battlefield in
Pennsylvania, 87 years earlier,four score and seven years
earlier is 1776.
87 years earlier, four scoreand seven years earlier is 1776.
So when he says four score andseven years ago our fathers
(09:10):
brought forth on this continenta new nation, right, that date
is not 1787, the Constitutionand it's not, you know, 1620,
the Mayfair Compact or somethinglike that.
Right 87 years ago, our fathersbrought forth in this continent
a new nation, conceived inliberty, and dedicated the
(09:32):
proposition.
What, oh?
That all men are created equal.
Ok, that's why this battle wasfought.
That's why this war is beingfought.
And then in the text of theGettysburg Address, he calls for
a new birth of freedom.
These men who fought here havededicated and consecrated this
(09:52):
battlefield more than any of ourwords could ever do.
What can we do now?
We have to be committed to thenew birth of freedom that their
struggle has made possible.
That means a new commitment tothe principles of 1776.
What does that mean?
All men are created equal andthe broader principles of the
(10:15):
Declaration.
Now, there is a point there thatand I'll talk about this a
little further Lincoln's viewsof the Declaration of the
Constitution.
It's not accidental.
He uses a biblical phrase sothis is from Psalm 90, to count
the lives of men in terms ofscore of years 20 years and then
(10:37):
more particular years, so tosay four score and seven years
ago.
Scholars have documented thisquite a lot.
To say four score and sevenyears ago.
Scholars have documented thisquite a lot.
He's trying to bring in theChristian biblical tradition
which he hopes might be unifyingas well as giving a deeper
foundation.
Now the Declaration againitself refers to the laws of
(10:58):
nature and nature's God and hasthree other references to a
divinity, but it doesn't useexplicitly say Christian or
Jewish and Christian language.
This is from the Old Testament,as the Christians would say, or
from the Hebrew Bible, psalm 90.
So again it's another signalthat of course he's fighting for
(11:18):
the Union, right the war.
Here he is at Gettysburg 1863.
Of course the war is for theUnion and for the Constitution,
but it's for the why behind theUnion and the Constitution.
So he's trying to pull it alltogether and say that the new
birth has to be informing theConstitution, including
(11:42):
amendments to the Constitutionwhich he's already thinking
about, to abolish slavery.
Our Constitution, our laws, ourpolitical culture has to more
tightly comply with theDeclaration and its principles
than it has in these first 87years.
Source we have about thisrelationship, which informs why
(12:04):
in 1863 at Gettysburg, would hestart with four score and seven
years ago, pointing to 1776?
Why would he talk aboutconceived in liberty that's what
America means in 1776.
Why, dedicated to theproposition a phrase from the
declaration that all men arecreated equal In 1859, lincoln
(12:28):
has become nationally famous bythen because of what are called
the Lincoln-Douglas debates.
He challenges a very prominentDemocratic senator from Illinois
Lincoln's from Illinois for theSenate seat from Illinois in
the 1858 election.
Long shot effort by Lincolnbecause Senator Stephen Douglas
is one of the most famouspoliticians in America and one
(12:50):
of the leaders of the DemocraticParty and he's going to be the
Democratic Party nominee in 1860for the presidency.
Lincoln runs against him,challenges him to debates.
Lincoln becomes famous in whatare called the Lincoln-Douglas
debates.
Now, lincoln loses.
In the end the statelegislature chooses senators.
Lincoln loses but it makes himfamous, and especially among
(13:10):
this new party, the Republicans,the Republican Party.
So Republicans in Boston,massachusetts invite Lincoln in
1869 to a celebration of ThomasJefferson's birthday.
So you can see what theRepublican Party is doing up in
Boston.
Right, they want to emphasizethe Declaration and Jefferson
and the Declaration.
(13:31):
So they invite Lincoln.
Lincoln says I regret that Icannot attend, but he writes a
letter and the letter is aboutthe relationship between the
Declaration and the Constitution.
And he says that we now, asRepublicans, could be very proud
that we stand for ThomasJefferson's principles.
(13:53):
And isn't it a shame that theDemocratic Party, which was
founded by Thomas Jefferson, nolonger really holds the Thomas
Jefferson's principles in theDeclaration of Independence?
It's kind of mocking them,right.
And then he gives quotationsfrom very Southern leaders who
in the previous decade or morehad mocked the Declaration of
Independence.
Southern, you know, statementsthat the Declaration of
(14:14):
Independence statement about allmen being created equal.
That's a self-evident lie.
Or there are glitteringgeneralities in the Declaration
of Independence like who cares,you know?
So he says, but we Republicans,we believe in it.
And so this is the finalparagraph of this letter he
writes, you can find it.
It's an 1859 letter to HenryPierce or Purse.
(14:35):
They would pronounce it in NewEngland and others.
This is the final paragraph ofLincoln's letter.
All honor to Jefferson, to theman who, in the concrete
pressure of a struggle fornational independence by a
single people, introduced into amerely revolutionary document
an abstract truth applicable toall men and all times, so as to
(15:00):
embalm it there he means,preserve it there that today and
in all coming days it shall bea rebuke and a stumbling block
to the very harbingers ofreappearing tyranny and
oppression.
So this is his praise toJefferson, saying self-evident
truths all men created equallife's liberty pursued happens.
(15:22):
So this is 1859.
He's got it on his mind veryintensely that the Declaration
is the guiding principle forinterpreting the Constitution
and the conduct of the federalgovernment.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
So I know that there's also a writing by
Lincoln where he compares theDeclaration and the Constitution
to gold and silver specificitems.
Why does he do that?
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat?
Speaker 2 (15:48):
Yes, this is another extraordinary document from
Lincoln.
So obviously the GettysburgAddress is very public documents
1863.
He's focused on the Declarationand a rebirth of freedom, a
rebirth of American politicalculture according to the
principles of the Declaration.
And now we've just seen, in1859, he's very much got the
(16:11):
Declaration on his mind and he'dbeen arguing about the
Declaration for well over adecade in the 1850s.
This is the key tounderstanding the slavery
controversy.
But we also know historians knowof what's called a fragment.
It's a note to himself thatLincoln writes and scholars date
it to either late 1860 or early1861.
(16:34):
So they dated to the periodwhen he's been elected president
.
But back at then there's a verylong, almost six month period,
because inaugural ceremonies fora presidency were in March of
the of the following year, notin January as we have them now.
So it's sometime betweenNovember 1860 when he's elected
and when he's inaugurated inMarch.
(16:55):
And it's the fragment on theDeclaration of the Constitution
and the crucial word he uses isapple of gold.
So you could find it that way.
And it's again an occasionwhere he invokes a passage from
scripture from the Old Testament.
This is from Proverbs 25.
And this is a proverb said tobe from.
(17:15):
These are proverbs from KingSolomon, said to be this very
wise, judicious king, and it'susing the phrase from the
Proverbs a word fitly spoken islike an apple of gold in a frame
of silver, and Lincoln comparesthe Declaration of the
Constitution to these preciousitems.
(17:35):
The Declaration is the apple ofgold and the frame of silver
around the apple of gold toadorn it and protect it is the
Constitution.
So he is coming.
You know there's talk of civilwar in the air and he's trying
to clarify his thinking.
He never publishes thesethoughts himself.
You can see how this informsthe Gettysburg Address and so
(17:58):
much of what he does from hisfirst inaugural address forward.
Right, so I'm just going toread it.
This is a long reading fromLincoln, but it's worth every
word.
All this and he means america,all this is not the result of
accident.
It has a philosophical cause.
Without the constitution andthe union, we, america, could
(18:22):
not have attained the result.
But even these are not theprimary cause of our great
prosperity.
There's something back of these, entwining itself more closely
about the human heart.
That something is the principleof liberty to all, the
principle that clears the pathfor all, gives hope to all and,
(18:43):
by consequence, enterprise andindustry to all.
The expression of thatprinciple in our Declaration of
Independence was most happy andfortunate.
Without this, as well as withit, we could have declared
independence of Great Britain.
But without it we could not, Ithink, have secured our free
(19:08):
government and our consequentprosperity and our consequent
prosperity.
No oppressed people will fightand endure, as our fathers did,
without the promise of somethingbetter than a mere change of
masters.
The assertion of that principleat that time was the word fitly
spoken.
And here he puts it inquotation marks.
He's quoting the Proverbs.
(19:29):
Which has proved an apple ofgold.
He quotes it to us the unionand the constitution are the
picture of silver, the frame ofsilver subsequently framed
around it.
And here's the crucialconclusion the picture was made
not to conceal or destroy theapple, but to adorn and preserve
(19:53):
it.
The picture was made for theapple, not the apple for the
picture.
So let us act that neither thepicture or apple shall ever be
blurred or bruised or broken.
That we may so act.
We must study and understandthe points of danger.
(20:14):
So there's a huge amount here.
But again the biblical reference.
There's something deeper, andthis is, you know, by his second
inaugural.
There's no reference.
The war is basically won by1865.
He's won re-election.
There's no reference to theDeclaration of the Constitution
in the Second Argo.
It's all biblical.
(20:35):
So for him these pieces all fittogether the Enlightenment
principles of individual naturalrights, the common law
constitutional element, thebiblical elements, they all fit
together.
So there's that part.
And then there's the clearmessage.
I was mentioning this earlier.
The Constitution is for theDeclaration and that means the
(20:59):
Declaration must guide ourunderstanding of how to
interpret and implement theConstitution.
And this is what the Southernleaders or the pro-slavery
leaders and speakers in Americaare getting wrong.
On the other hand, notice hesays we must adorn and preserve
both the frame of silver and theapple of gold, both the
(21:21):
Constitution and the Declaration.
So that's the argument againstthe abolitionists.
I can't just declare myselfking and be lawless and abolish
slavery, because theConstitution right now doesn't
let me do that.
Abolish slavery, because theConstitution right now doesn't
let me do that.
But it's just an extraordinaryprivate document, which then
(21:41):
becomes public, of hisunderstanding of the
philosophical meaning of America, of our political project, and
then the guiding principles fromthe Declaration, the importance
and the guiding principles ofthe Constitution and this should
be this should.
This sets the terms of argument, reasonable disagreement and
(22:01):
then trying to figure out theright path forward.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
Dr Freese, it's so interesting to look at Lincoln's
you know writings that werepublic and then again writings
that weren't meant to be publicbut help us understand his
thinking, especially as itrelates to the Declaration and
especially as we are celebratingAmerica 250, and looking at the
Declaration wasn't justimportant in 1776.
(22:27):
It continued to be importantthroughout American history,
which again in further episodeswe will explore.
Thank you so much for yourexpertise.
It's greatly appreciated.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Thank you so much, Liz.
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