September 22, 2025 • 20 mins
The Federalist Papers stand as America's original political science—a blueprint for constitutional government that remains surprisingly relevant 240 years after its creation. In this enlightening conversation with Dr. Paul Carrese, we explore why these historical documents continue to shape our understanding of governance despite dramatic changes in American society.
What makes the Federalist Papers so enduring? As Dr. Carrese explains, the fundamental questions they address - federalism, separation of powers, the character needed for self-governance - remain at the heart of our political discourse. When courts interpret the Constitution, when states assert their rights against federal power, when we debate the proper role of the presidency, we're engaging with the same issues Publius explored centuries ago.
We uncover several overlooked dimensions of these seminal texts: their emphasis on civic virtue and the character necessary for republican government; their implicit model of statesmanship (with George Washington as the unspoken exemplar); their ambitious vision for American greatness; and their commitment to reasoned, civil debate. These aspects reveal why even bitter political rivals like Jefferson and Madison could agree that every University of Virginia student should read the Federalist.
The enduring relevance of these essays raises profound questions about our constitutional heritage. Is it a mere coincidence that America became the world's leading power based on the principles articulated in the Federalist? What wisdom from Publius might help us navigate today's political challenges? Join us as we explore how America's founding documents continue illuminating our path forward, and subscribe to our upcoming episode on the crucial constitutional debates between Federalists and Anti-Federalists.
Check Out the Civic Literacy Curriculum!
School of Civic and Economic Thought and Leadership
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome back everyone to Civics in the Year.
Today we're talking about howwe use the Federalist Papers to
help us understand theConstitution.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
And with us we have Dr Paul Carice, dr Carice, our
question27.
We're 240 years after 1787.
So I can understand someskepticism.
Isn't there just too much thathas changed in America and the
world, from the world thatPublius knew 240 years ago,
(00:48):
world from the world thatPublius knew 240 years ago.
So you know how relevant canthe Federalist Papers be, even
to understand the Constitution240 years later.
I mean, just take the questionof amendments.
There are 27 amendments.
There's been a civil warrelated to some of those.
Then, beyond that we've we'vehad two world wars.
So I I could see the skepticism.
(01:08):
But in fact, even accountingfor all the change in the world
and the change brought about bylet's, you know, put aside the
first 10 amendments, which ofcourse publius knew about.
You know, certainly madisonknew about madison's proposing
the amendments in the House.
So let's roll the first 10 intothe original constitutional
(01:28):
founding that Publiuscomprehends and understands, but
the further 17, there'samendments toward inclusion,
greater democracy, abolishingslavery and voting for Black men
at any rate, and then women'ssuffrage and lowering the voting
age later in the 20th century,then empowering the federal
(01:52):
government.
How can Publius help usunderstand these kinds of
changes?
Well, I don't think I'm justbeing overly fond of the
Federalists and of Publius tosay nearly all of these issues
are within the four corners,within the orbit of the
(02:17):
constitutionalism and I'll callit the political science that's
in the Federalists.
Take just the structuralquestions issues, federalism and
separation of powers.
Are we still debating those?
Do we still need some originalinsights about the debates over
them and what they might mean?
(02:37):
You know the Federalist caselooks good in lots of ways.
We certainly have seen from theWar of 1812 on to later
international wars that wereally did need a strong
national government.
We needed a strong militarycapability.
When we didn't in the War of1812, our national capital was
(02:57):
invaded and burned right andthen we learned from that went
on.
Have we seen the advantage ofhaving a strong federal
government to promote commerceamong the states with foreign
trading partners?
I think generally yes.
We've seen the advantage of thevery large pluralistic federal
(03:20):
republic, obviously famouslydefended in Federals 10, but
don't forget Federals 9.
I think we've seen theadvantage of that.
On the other hand, theanti-federalist arguments look
pretty serious.
There's a lot of foresightpressings there.
Has the federal governmentgrown so large that the spirit
(03:41):
of self-government in the statesand localities.
Even in civil society, thespirit of self-government has
suffered, has dwindled to someextent.
Those are real.
Everything I just mentionedthose are real issues in 2025 in
(04:01):
our political debate.
I think they should be issuesof serious academic,
intellectual discussion as well.
Let me just go on aboutfederalism In 2025, under the
second Trump administration.
Aren't there governors in indemocratic majority States
rediscovering federalism,worried about limits on a
(04:21):
president, a very activepresident, limits on the power
of the federal government?
Doesn't that happen when youknow a situation is flipped?
Democratic president, you know,red states, as we call them,
republican-controlled states.
So that set of issues,separation of powers I mean in
my adult lifetime I'm nearly 60years old, but paying attention
(04:46):
since the 70s or the 80s topolitics.
It's always the case that theminority party in Washington DC
is talking about separation ofpowers, how important it is
Separation of powers.
The House and Senate theyalways want the judiciary to be,
you know, keeping a close eyeon the executive branch.
And they always want theadministrative agencies you know
(05:09):
to have, especially theindependent ones like the Fed.
We're talking about the FederalReserve now and news at the
moment.
They want them to have, youknow, independent power.
So these are all reasons whythe Federalists, literacy about
knowledge of the Federalists andagain I'll use the phrase the
political science, the firstpolitical science of our country
(05:32):
, of the Federalists, is stillvery relevant and the
independent confirmation of thisis that it's still the case
that the Federalist is regularlyand widely cited in federal
appellate court opinions wherethey're really getting into
constitutional interpretation,in the circuit courts and
obviously in the US SupremeCourt.
It's still seen the Federalistas having the best insight on
(05:57):
the original public meaning ofthe Constitution as a whole,
particular clauses, particularclauses.
And then I'll finally add rightnow that in 2025, late 2025,
we're clearly in the America 250commemoration period that
officially begins in 2026, 250years after 1776.
(06:19):
And that's gaining somenational attention and support
seemingly with every passingweek.
And so there's significantistsinvokes the Declaration of
Independence, invokes theprinciples of the revolution,
either explicitly or strongly,alluding to the Declaration, the
(07:00):
spirit of 1776, the spirit ofthe revolution as guiding its
arguments for why this is.
We need a stronger federalgovernment, a stronger union,
stronger government in thecenter of the union.
They're invoking theDeclaration.
So that's a great question forus as we begin A250, which,
again, as we talked about, Ihope goes on for decades, as
we'll begin it.
What's the connection betweenDeclaration and the Constitution
, and the Federalist is thereagain.
(07:24):
The Federalist is a greatresource.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
So, dr Freese, what are some other dimensions of the
Federalist Papers that we tendto overlook?
Now, right, we're almost 200, Imean 240, 230 years later after
they were written.
So there might be themes orcharacteristics that we might
find valuable in understandingour constitutional form of
ordered liberty, how we mightuse the Constitution better, be
(07:50):
a better citizen or havehealthier politics.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
I'll mention four ideas about this, having just
mentioned we tend to overlookthe presence of the Declaration
of Independence in theFederalists.
But four additional points.
One is the Federalists ourfirst political science, our
first account of the larger andmore detailed meanings of the
Constitution.
How much we forget, overlookhow much the Federalist talks
(08:18):
about the character of a freepeople, and I'll call it the
need for civic virtue.
Does use the ideas about civicvirtue explicitly, at least at
one point, but generally theneed for civic virtue in a
self-governing people, the needfor a commitment to liberty and
to justice, the need forcommitment to the rule of law in
(08:39):
a republican form of government, not a democracy so that the
interests and the passions ofpeople are channeled through
complex constitutionalrepublican forms so as to better
serve the long-term interestsof the whole community, the
public interest, and to protectminority rights and or
everybody's, you know,individual rights that can't
(09:03):
just be done through having theparchment, constitution and
institutions.
there has to be a spirit, acharacter in the people to
realize the value of theseinstitutional, constitutional
forms, these principles, to tostick with them, channel,
channel our energy and ourinterests and passions through
the complex constitutional forms.
(09:24):
Separation of powers at thefederal level, but also
federalism between the state,local level, and, one hand,
national, federal level.
That means, you know, it takesa certain character to have
regard for offices that seemvery far away.
You know it takes a certain ittakes a certain character to
have regard for offices thatseem very far away.
You know federal judges seemvery far away from us.
(09:44):
Who you know who appointedthese nine justices in court and
it takes only five to get amajority.
Who appointed them?
You know demigods far away.
I think.
You know crucial constitutionalquestions, maybe overturning
laws passed by the.
You know the Congress and thepresident, but you know the
Senate, the president as well.
(10:04):
Have they?
They seem like very remotefigures in ways.
Who gave them all this power?
But the federalists, thepolitical science of the
federalist, makes an argumentfor this and then calls for a
kind of constitutional character, a Republican civic character
in a people.
That's, of course, why we'redoing what we're doing at the
Center for American Civics andin the School of Civic and
(10:27):
Economic Thought and Leadership.
You know, this whole systemdoesn't run of itself.
It requires a civic educationand civic commitment.
So that's one theme if you wantto know where you know.
The opening question inFederalist number one can free
peoples form governments on thebasis of reflection and choice,
or are we destined to live underaccident and force, meaning
(10:51):
Republican, free governmentsfail, and that this might be the
most interesting question inall the world Will the American
federal republic, will America,succeed?
Number 37, about the Republicanspirit and the Republican
character of America and of thisproposed constitution to help
improve American politics,american government.
(11:13):
Number 55, explicitly, publiuscalls out the need for virtue in
the citizenry.
Yes, we want to rely on theseinstitutional forms, separation
of powers, auxiliary precautions, as number 51 says, but we need
also virtue in the citizenry.
And then, as I've just beenalluding to the references to
(11:34):
the high offices later in thefederals, the defense of the
Senate, the defense of thepresidency, the defense of
federal judiciary, those areplaces to look.
And then the second point.
So, second point related to it,we overlook the regard for
statesmanship character in theleaders in particular, and
(11:55):
especially, I think, this sortof implicit presence of George
Washington as the model.
Especially I think this sort ofimplicit presence of George
Washington as the model, nevercited by name, but come close to
it at one point, sayingenlightened statesman won't
always be at the helm.
So we need these complicatedinstitutional mechanisms and
(12:17):
checks, but wouldn't it be niceif enlightened statesman were at
the helm more often?
Is the implication there?
So again, the defense of thesenate, especially numbers 70
and 72, and the presidency, thesenate.
I would look to number 62 and63, including by john jay on the
, the important leadershipstatesmanship role there, number
70, 72, also in a way federal78, a kind of judicial
(12:40):
statesmanship, not activism, notpolitical, but statesmanship
for the rule of law and forconstitutional rule.
Now, not so much for thejudiciary but certainly for the
ideas of statesmanship in theexecutive and the Senate.
Washington is the implicitmodel, never explicitly invoked.
(13:00):
The closest would be thereference to enlightened
statesmanship, enlightenedstatesman owners via the helm,
the model for the presidency in1772.
And I'll mention you know it'sno accident that George
Washington knows about theFederalist and has the essays
reprinted in Virginia Makes aprivate initiative, doesn't want
his fingerprint seen on it butto help the Virginia
(13:20):
ratification project.
And then I'll mention one othersort of interesting historical
note that you could say in a way, madison and Hamilton and Jay
are all proteges of GeorgeWashington.
They all knew him, they allworked with him and in a way the
political science of theFederalists 85 essays is written
(13:42):
with the model of Washington inmind and he's the president of
the Constitutional Convention.
So in a way the spirit is allthroughout.
He reprints them, washingtonreprints them to Virginia, and
then in 1796, in the farewelladdress we could do a whole
separate episode on this hepulls Publius back together.
After there's been such astrong split between Madison and
Hamilton, he has Hamilton in1796 use Madison's draft from
(14:06):
1792.
And then, when he likes whatHamilton has done, he eventually
asks Hamilton to talk to JohnJay about that nearly final
draft.
And so Washington has pulledtogether publicists Madison,
hamilton, jay to write theprologue.
So just a couple of other quickthings that we overlook.
A third point the ambition forAmerican greatness in the
(14:29):
Federalist.
Again it begins with number one, maybe the most interesting
question in the world Will thisAmerican experiment in
self-government succeed?
And it's a matter ofphilanthropy for Americans to
think we need to makeself-government succeed here so
that the model can spread.
Number 11, defense of a Navy.
It's not only to protect us,federalist.
(14:49):
Number 11 talks aboutvindicating the rights of
mankind.
If we are strong enoughmilitary power to be shaping a
more moderate, decent kind ofpolitics out there in the globe,
the clear ambition for Americangreatness that comes across in
the essays on the presidency,especially 70, 71, 72.
So again, is it an accidentthis relates to your opening
(15:14):
question what do you reallystill learn about the
Constitution by studying theFederalists?
Well, 230 years later, can weask is it an accident that
America became the singlegreatest power in the world on
the basis of this politicalscience laid out by the
Federalists and the Constitutionand the kind of character it
calls for the people, thecharacter it calls for
(15:34):
statesmanship?
It's clear, doing the mathright, it's 160 years, from 1787
, 1788 to the end of SecondWorld War, 1945, late 1940s,
when we're clearly one of thetwo greatest powers in the world
maybe the greatest then andwe're clearly the sole
superpower by 1991.
(15:55):
You know, just a little over200 years.
Is that accidental?
Or maybe just put this explainhow we laid the foundation for
that and then state's been builton it.
And then final, final point, andthen I think we'll talk about
this in a later episode weoverlook the importance of
(16:16):
moderation and debate,reasonable civil debate.
That's right.
In the Federalist they quoteAnti-Federalist authors.
You know they say some snarkythings about Anti-Federalist
authors, but they quote them andthey're arguing with them.
And in Federalist number oneand Federalist number 85,
publius Hamilton opens andcloses by calling for moderation
(16:38):
, for debate, reasonable civildisagreement about this.
And I mentioned this in anearlier episode we did on the
Anti-Federalists.
We'll talk about it some more.
There's a great scholar in the20th century, herbert Storing,
saying this debate between theFederalists and the
Anti-Federalists isindispensable for understanding
America.
You don't understand theConstitution.
(17:01):
You don't understand thefounding.
The Federalists understandtheir Constitution.
They're proposing betterbecause they're going to meet
the challenge of theAnti-Federalist arguments, some
of which are excellent.
And then Storing's larger pointthat the meaning of the
Constitution comes out in thedebate.
The Federalists learn moreabout constitutional order we
all do from the debate.
(17:22):
So those are all some reasons tosplit Federalists and
Jeffersonians, hamilton andJefferson decades later in 1818,
excuse me after both Jeffersonand Madison have been president.
(17:44):
They are leading the design ofthe University of Virginia and
the curriculum of the Universityof Virginia.
What do they place on therequired reading list for all
students at the University ofVirginia in 1818, including it?
You know the Declaration, okay.
And then the greatness, themagnanimity of George Washington
in 1796.
(18:05):
You've got his farewell address?
Okay.
They also have the Federalist.
Every University of Virginiastudent got to read the
Federalist.
Wish that were still the casetoday.
But you know, even after thepartisan split and you know,
maybe Thomas Jefferson thoughtmore of the essays were written
(18:25):
by Madison than he actuallyunderstood Two-thirds of them
were written by Hamilton.
But it's Hamilton writing asPublius.
You know, hamilton, madison andJay.
This is the political scienceof the founding of the
Constitution.
So Jefferson can join Madisonin 1818 saying this is
indispensable.
This is the greatest commentaryon free government and that
echoes what Washington says in1788, at the time they're being
(18:46):
written.
This is the greatest commentaryon the principles of free
government, as well as on ourown constitutional order.
So sorry, I got a littleexcited and went on a bit.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
I love that, though, and, listeners, we are going to
yes, we are going to talk in ournext episode about the debates
and what they can mean for ustoday.
So, dr Carice, thank you somuch for your expertise, and I
can't wait to talk about thedebates after this.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
Okay, thanks Liz.
Welcome back everyone to Civics in the Year.
Today we're talking about howwe use the Federalist Papers to
help us understand theConstitution.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
And with us we have Dr Paul Carice, dr Carice, our
question27.
We're 240 years after 1787.
So I can understand someskepticism.
Isn't there just too much thathas changed in America and the
world, from the world thatPublius knew 240 years ago,
(00:48):
world from the world thatPublius knew 240 years ago.
So you know how relevant canthe Federalist Papers be, even
to understand the Constitution240 years later.
I mean, just take the questionof amendments.
There are 27 amendments.
There's been a civil warrelated to some of those.
Then, beyond that we've we'vehad two world wars.
So I I could see the skepticism.
(01:08):
But in fact, even accountingfor all the change in the world
and the change brought about bylet's, you know, put aside the
first 10 amendments, which ofcourse publius knew about.
You know, certainly madisonknew about madison's proposing
the amendments in the House.
So let's roll the first 10 intothe original constitutional
(01:28):
founding that Publiuscomprehends and understands, but
the further 17, there'samendments toward inclusion,
greater democracy, abolishingslavery and voting for Black men
at any rate, and then women'ssuffrage and lowering the voting
age later in the 20th century,then empowering the federal
(01:52):
government.
How can Publius help usunderstand these kinds of
changes?
Well, I don't think I'm justbeing overly fond of the
Federalists and of Publius tosay nearly all of these issues
are within the four corners,within the orbit of the
(02:17):
constitutionalism and I'll callit the political science that's
in the Federalists.
Take just the structuralquestions issues, federalism and
separation of powers.
Are we still debating those?
Do we still need some originalinsights about the debates over
them and what they might mean?
(02:37):
You know the Federalist caselooks good in lots of ways.
We certainly have seen from theWar of 1812 on to later
international wars that wereally did need a strong
national government.
We needed a strong militarycapability.
When we didn't in the War of1812, our national capital was
(02:57):
invaded and burned right andthen we learned from that went
on.
Have we seen the advantage ofhaving a strong federal
government to promote commerceamong the states with foreign
trading partners?
I think generally yes.
We've seen the advantage of thevery large pluralistic federal
(03:20):
republic, obviously famouslydefended in Federals 10, but
don't forget Federals 9.
I think we've seen theadvantage of that.
On the other hand, theanti-federalist arguments look
pretty serious.
There's a lot of foresightpressings there.
Has the federal governmentgrown so large that the spirit
(03:41):
of self-government in the statesand localities.
Even in civil society, thespirit of self-government has
suffered, has dwindled to someextent.
Those are real.
Everything I just mentionedthose are real issues in 2025 in
(04:01):
our political debate.
I think they should be issuesof serious academic,
intellectual discussion as well.
Let me just go on aboutfederalism In 2025, under the
second Trump administration.
Aren't there governors in indemocratic majority States
rediscovering federalism,worried about limits on a
(04:21):
president, a very activepresident, limits on the power
of the federal government?
Doesn't that happen when youknow a situation is flipped?
Democratic president, you know,red states, as we call them,
republican-controlled states.
So that set of issues,separation of powers I mean in
my adult lifetime I'm nearly 60years old, but paying attention
(04:46):
since the 70s or the 80s topolitics.
It's always the case that theminority party in Washington DC
is talking about separation ofpowers, how important it is
Separation of powers.
The House and Senate theyalways want the judiciary to be,
you know, keeping a close eyeon the executive branch.
And they always want theadministrative agencies you know
(05:09):
to have, especially theindependent ones like the Fed.
We're talking about the FederalReserve now and news at the
moment.
They want them to have, youknow, independent power.
So these are all reasons whythe Federalists, literacy about
knowledge of the Federalists andagain I'll use the phrase the
political science, the firstpolitical science of our country
(05:32):
, of the Federalists, is stillvery relevant and the
independent confirmation of thisis that it's still the case
that the Federalist is regularlyand widely cited in federal
appellate court opinions wherethey're really getting into
constitutional interpretation,in the circuit courts and
obviously in the US SupremeCourt.
It's still seen the Federalistas having the best insight on
(05:57):
the original public meaning ofthe Constitution as a whole,
particular clauses, particularclauses.
And then I'll finally add rightnow that in 2025, late 2025,
we're clearly in the America 250commemoration period that
officially begins in 2026, 250years after 1776.
(06:19):
And that's gaining somenational attention and support
seemingly with every passingweek.
And so there's significantistsinvokes the Declaration of
Independence, invokes theprinciples of the revolution,
either explicitly or strongly,alluding to the Declaration, the
(07:00):
spirit of 1776, the spirit ofthe revolution as guiding its
arguments for why this is.
We need a stronger federalgovernment, a stronger union,
stronger government in thecenter of the union.
They're invoking theDeclaration.
So that's a great question forus as we begin A250, which,
again, as we talked about, Ihope goes on for decades, as
we'll begin it.
What's the connection betweenDeclaration and the Constitution
, and the Federalist is thereagain.
(07:24):
The Federalist is a greatresource.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
So, dr Freese, what are some other dimensions of the
Federalist Papers that we tendto overlook?
Now, right, we're almost 200, Imean 240, 230 years later after
they were written.
So there might be themes orcharacteristics that we might
find valuable in understandingour constitutional form of
ordered liberty, how we mightuse the Constitution better, be
(07:50):
a better citizen or havehealthier politics.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
I'll mention four ideas about this, having just
mentioned we tend to overlookthe presence of the Declaration
of Independence in theFederalists.
But four additional points.
One is the Federalists ourfirst political science, our
first account of the larger andmore detailed meanings of the
Constitution.
How much we forget, overlookhow much the Federalist talks
(08:18):
about the character of a freepeople, and I'll call it the
need for civic virtue.
Does use the ideas about civicvirtue explicitly, at least at
one point, but generally theneed for civic virtue in a
self-governing people, the needfor a commitment to liberty and
to justice, the need forcommitment to the rule of law in
(08:39):
a republican form of government, not a democracy so that the
interests and the passions ofpeople are channeled through
complex constitutionalrepublican forms so as to better
serve the long-term interestsof the whole community, the
public interest, and to protectminority rights and or
everybody's, you know,individual rights that can't
(09:03):
just be done through having theparchment, constitution and
institutions.
there has to be a spirit, acharacter in the people to
realize the value of theseinstitutional, constitutional
forms, these principles, to tostick with them, channel,
channel our energy and ourinterests and passions through
the complex constitutional forms.
(09:24):
Separation of powers at thefederal level, but also
federalism between the state,local level, and, one hand,
national, federal level.
That means, you know, it takesa certain character to have
regard for offices that seemvery far away.
You know it takes a certain ittakes a certain character to
have regard for offices thatseem very far away.
You know federal judges seemvery far away from us.
(09:44):
Who you know who appointedthese nine justices in court and
it takes only five to get amajority.
Who appointed them?
You know demigods far away.
I think.
You know crucial constitutionalquestions, maybe overturning
laws passed by the.
You know the Congress and thepresident, but you know the
Senate, the president as well.
(10:04):
Have they?
They seem like very remotefigures in ways.
Who gave them all this power?
But the federalists, thepolitical science of the
federalist, makes an argumentfor this and then calls for a
kind of constitutional character, a Republican civic character
in a people.
That's, of course, why we'redoing what we're doing at the
Center for American Civics andin the School of Civic and
(10:27):
Economic Thought and Leadership.
You know, this whole systemdoesn't run of itself.
It requires a civic educationand civic commitment.
So that's one theme if you wantto know where you know.
The opening question inFederalist number one can free
peoples form governments on thebasis of reflection and choice,
or are we destined to live underaccident and force, meaning
(10:51):
Republican, free governmentsfail, and that this might be the
most interesting question inall the world Will the American
federal republic, will America,succeed?
Number 37, about the Republicanspirit and the Republican
character of America and of thisproposed constitution to help
improve American politics,american government.
(11:13):
Number 55, explicitly, publiuscalls out the need for virtue in
the citizenry.
Yes, we want to rely on theseinstitutional forms, separation
of powers, auxiliary precautions, as number 51 says, but we need
also virtue in the citizenry.
And then, as I've just beenalluding to the references to
(11:34):
the high offices later in thefederals, the defense of the
Senate, the defense of thepresidency, the defense of
federal judiciary, those areplaces to look.
And then the second point.
So, second point related to it,we overlook the regard for
statesmanship character in theleaders in particular, and
(11:55):
especially, I think, this sortof implicit presence of George
Washington as the model.
Especially I think this sort ofimplicit presence of George
Washington as the model, nevercited by name, but come close to
it at one point, sayingenlightened statesman won't
always be at the helm.
So we need these complicatedinstitutional mechanisms and
(12:17):
checks, but wouldn't it be niceif enlightened statesman were at
the helm more often?
Is the implication there?
So again, the defense of thesenate, especially numbers 70
and 72, and the presidency, thesenate.
I would look to number 62 and63, including by john jay on the
, the important leadershipstatesmanship role there, number
70, 72, also in a way federal78, a kind of judicial
(12:40):
statesmanship, not activism, notpolitical, but statesmanship
for the rule of law and forconstitutional rule.
Now, not so much for thejudiciary but certainly for the
ideas of statesmanship in theexecutive and the Senate.
Washington is the implicitmodel, never explicitly invoked.
(13:00):
The closest would be thereference to enlightened
statesmanship, enlightenedstatesman owners via the helm,
the model for the presidency in1772.
And I'll mention you know it'sno accident that George
Washington knows about theFederalist and has the essays
reprinted in Virginia Makes aprivate initiative, doesn't want
his fingerprint seen on it butto help the Virginia
(13:20):
ratification project.
And then I'll mention one othersort of interesting historical
note that you could say in a way, madison and Hamilton and Jay
are all proteges of GeorgeWashington.
They all knew him, they allworked with him and in a way the
political science of theFederalists 85 essays is written
(13:42):
with the model of Washington inmind and he's the president of
the Constitutional Convention.
So in a way the spirit is allthroughout.
He reprints them, washingtonreprints them to Virginia, and
then in 1796, in the farewelladdress we could do a whole
separate episode on this hepulls Publius back together.
After there's been such astrong split between Madison and
Hamilton, he has Hamilton in1796 use Madison's draft from
(14:06):
1792.
And then, when he likes whatHamilton has done, he eventually
asks Hamilton to talk to JohnJay about that nearly final
draft.
And so Washington has pulledtogether publicists Madison,
hamilton, jay to write theprologue.
So just a couple of other quickthings that we overlook.
A third point the ambition forAmerican greatness in the
(14:29):
Federalist.
Again it begins with number one, maybe the most interesting
question in the world Will thisAmerican experiment in
self-government succeed?
And it's a matter ofphilanthropy for Americans to
think we need to makeself-government succeed here so
that the model can spread.
Number 11, defense of a Navy.
It's not only to protect us,federalist.
(14:49):
Number 11 talks aboutvindicating the rights of
mankind.
If we are strong enoughmilitary power to be shaping a
more moderate, decent kind ofpolitics out there in the globe,
the clear ambition for Americangreatness that comes across in
the essays on the presidency,especially 70, 71, 72.
So again, is it an accidentthis relates to your opening
(15:14):
question what do you reallystill learn about the
Constitution by studying theFederalists?
Well, 230 years later, can weask is it an accident that
America became the singlegreatest power in the world on
the basis of this politicalscience laid out by the
Federalists and the Constitutionand the kind of character it
calls for the people, thecharacter it calls for
(15:34):
statesmanship?
It's clear, doing the mathright, it's 160 years, from 1787
, 1788 to the end of SecondWorld War, 1945, late 1940s,
when we're clearly one of thetwo greatest powers in the world
maybe the greatest then andwe're clearly the sole
superpower by 1991.
(15:55):
You know, just a little over200 years.
Is that accidental?
Or maybe just put this explainhow we laid the foundation for
that and then state's been builton it.
And then final, final point, andthen I think we'll talk about
this in a later episode weoverlook the importance of
(16:16):
moderation and debate,reasonable civil debate.
That's right.
In the Federalist they quoteAnti-Federalist authors.
You know they say some snarkythings about Anti-Federalist
authors, but they quote them andthey're arguing with them.
And in Federalist number oneand Federalist number 85,
publius Hamilton opens andcloses by calling for moderation
(16:38):
, for debate, reasonable civildisagreement about this.
And I mentioned this in anearlier episode we did on the
Anti-Federalists.
We'll talk about it some more.
There's a great scholar in the20th century, herbert Storing,
saying this debate between theFederalists and the
Anti-Federalists isindispensable for understanding
America.
You don't understand theConstitution.
(17:01):
You don't understand thefounding.
The Federalists understandtheir Constitution.
They're proposing betterbecause they're going to meet
the challenge of theAnti-Federalist arguments, some
of which are excellent.
And then Storing's larger pointthat the meaning of the
Constitution comes out in thedebate.
The Federalists learn moreabout constitutional order we
all do from the debate.
(17:22):
So those are all some reasons tosplit Federalists and
Jeffersonians, hamilton andJefferson decades later in 1818,
excuse me after both Jeffersonand Madison have been president.
(17:44):
They are leading the design ofthe University of Virginia and
the curriculum of the Universityof Virginia.
What do they place on therequired reading list for all
students at the University ofVirginia in 1818, including it?
You know the Declaration, okay.
And then the greatness, themagnanimity of George Washington
in 1796.
(18:05):
You've got his farewell address?
Okay.
They also have the Federalist.
Every University of Virginiastudent got to read the
Federalist.
Wish that were still the casetoday.
But you know, even after thepartisan split and you know,
maybe Thomas Jefferson thoughtmore of the essays were written
(18:25):
by Madison than he actuallyunderstood Two-thirds of them
were written by Hamilton.
But it's Hamilton writing asPublius.
You know, hamilton, madison andJay.
This is the political scienceof the founding of the
Constitution.
So Jefferson can join Madisonin 1818 saying this is
indispensable.
This is the greatest commentaryon free government and that
echoes what Washington says in1788, at the time they're being
(18:46):
written.
This is the greatest commentaryon the principles of free
government, as well as on ourown constitutional order.
So sorry, I got a littleexcited and went on a bit.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
I love that, though, and, listeners, we are going to
yes, we are going to talk in ournext episode about the debates
and what they can mean for ustoday.
So, dr Carice, thank you somuch for your expertise, and I
can't wait to talk about thedebates after this.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
Okay, thanks Liz.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.