April 17, 2025 • 69 mins
Walking away from a lifelong religious belief system is rarely a simple process. Josh Gaines knows this firsthand, having spent 26 years deeply immersed in evangelical Christianity before embarking on a spiritual journey that would transform his understanding of reality.
In this profound conversation, Josh shares how he navigated the complex terrain of religious deprogramming. When the foundations of his Christian faith began to crumble, he found himself asking the fundamental question: "If this isn't true, then what is?" This curiosity launched him into exploring practices he once dismissed as "for crazy people"—Western ceremonial magic, Vedanta teachings, Kriya yoga, and Kabbalah among them. In this episode, we discuss angelic communication, third eye awakening, and the physical sensations of spiritual development.
What makes Josh's perspective particularly valuable is his ability to recognize common threads across seemingly disparate spiritual traditions. Rather than rejecting Christianity entirely, his explorations gave him a newfound appreciation for Christian mysticism and the teachings of Christ viewed through a non-dogmatic lens. Through his Deprogramming Christianity workshops and one-on-one coaching, Josh now helps others navigate this challenging transition, creating safe spaces for questions that many religious environments don't allow.
To learn more about Josh or to book a coaching session with him:
Visit: www.doctor-gaines.com
Clairvoyaging is now a fiscally sponsored project of Fractured Atlas, a 501(c)(3) charity, so any donations are now tax deductible. If you’d like to support our projects that aim to foster understanding for diverse spiritual belief systems, visit www.clairvoyaging.com/support.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey friends, in this episode, frank and I talked to
Josh Gaines, a spiritual coachand metaphysical mentor who is
well-studied in various esotericpractices after leaving an
evangelical church.
We talked about deprogrammingChristianity, how guilt and
judgment lingers after leaving avery strict religion and
different spiritual practices,like magic.
(00:21):
I'm Lauren Leon.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
And I'm Frank.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
We are a married couple learning how to develop
our own intuition, and this isepisode 70 of Claire Voyaging.
Wayfeather Media presentsClaire Voyaging.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
What's up everybody Hi, How's it going?
Speaker 1 (00:57):
This time I was trying to do a rap and it was
not going well.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
I was trying to be your hype guy and like it was
just loud, it was just loud, itwas just loud.
No one needed no one neededthat.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
No, hi everyone how's it going?
Um, guys, I hope everyone'sdoing well frank, are you
feeling it today?
Speaker 2 (01:17):
I am feeling something a little bit of
allergies that daddy's got alittle bit of a muscle tension,
he's got a headache, but it's agreat day.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Today's going to be a great day.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
It's a great day it's not a good day to call yourself
daddy.
Nobody likes that Strike thatfrom the record.
Judge.
It stays in.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
But hey, you know what, you know what's some great
news.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Tell me.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
We have some new Patreon friends?
Tell me we have some newPatreon friends.
Are you serious?
Yeah, who Tasha B and Danielle.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Guys.
Thank you, Tasha B and Danielleyes.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Thank you for joining .
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Fun reminder that during April, your first month
of Patreon is only $2.
That's so cheap that one wasloud.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
I broke my microphone , oh my gosh also fun reminder.
We started a new series whereyou know in the intro, the
musical part of our, thebeginning of our show.
Sometimes we try to rap and youcan't hear it because it's not
in the official episode.
But if you want to go, I recordthe rap on my phone.
It's not, it's a mess.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Well, yeah, so there is one up there.
So if you join the communityyou can hear the terrible raps
that Frank improvises behind thescenes.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
If you are.
This time it was you.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Maybe we'll put mine up.
I was rapping about magic.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
You said my rap was terrible, so now it's your turn.
They get to see what you haveto offer.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
And you know what, guys?
It's not much.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
It's not much, it's not much.
It's not looking good.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Spoken like my wonderful husband.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Hey, you know what it's about 13 years.
It's a relationship of honestyand truth.
And sometimes you just got tolook at your significant other
right in the eyes and say youare not a good rapper, you
should stop it at least at leastnot today.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Sometimes, you know, we have good moments, yeah, okay
.
Well, I guess improvising, uh,rap, is not going to be my
future.
I won't have a future in thatsame lin-manuel mir.
Miranda should not be worriedabout me at all.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
His career is secure.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Yeah, okay, you guys.
We have less than two monthsleft of our documentary
fundraising campaign.
Just wanted to put that outthere.
If you'd like to support ourdocumentary about psychic
mediums, go to clearvoyagingcom.
Slash support and click on thelink for the fractured atlas to
donate it's going to be good taxdeductible right frank td as
(03:51):
they say um in the financecommunity yeah, and thank you to
everyone who has supported usthus far thank you so much,
we've got.
We got a long way to go we do,but you know what?
Speaker 2 (04:02):
that's just how fundraising goes.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
Yeah, also keep like keep an eye out, because I want
to do like a little silentauction at some point.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
So we don't know how.
Yep, we'll, we'll figure it out.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
You don't have to leave.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Oh, you know what Fun thing, too, oh is this.
Is this in your notes?
Let me see?
Speaker 3 (04:28):
no, hey, we're gonna do, we're gonna start going live
on occasion on tiktok yikes.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Yeah, we'll um, follow us over there, come,
follow us.
I don't know when we're gonnado it.
We're probably gonna start inthe next like week or so yeah, I
think we're just gonna hop onand say hey and see what anybody
wants to talk about.
It'll be, like a live versionof the show, kind of maybe do a
little.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
We wanted it to kind of be well, yeah, do some
intuitive uh, just chat aboutintuitive development and also
we're just like a live um?
What's it called when you'refundraising like a telethon,
telethon um, yeah does it soundweird?
Speaker 2 (05:03):
because no one said that word in 50 years.
That's why.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
I remember how exciting telethons were when I
was a kid.
Like look at all thosecelebrities answering phones on
stage.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
My memory of telethons is from when they were
trying to raise money for theKatrina victims.
Hurricane Katrina.
Yeah, Kanye West was standingnext to Mike Myers and they were
supposed to stick to the scriptand Kanye was like George Bush
does not care about black people.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
That's right, and that's when that moment happened
.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
It was right.
So funny and so uncomfortable,and poor Mike.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
Myers, I've never seen a man sweat more than that
than he did in that moment.
Yeah, yeah, wow, our livetiktok.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
Content won't be anything like that.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
So no promises, actually, you know what no kanye
as far as yeah, as far as Iknow we don't know kanye or any
connection to him, so anyway,okay, let's get to josh.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
What a cool guy what a cool guy he speaking of tiktok
, he makes fun tiktok content hemakes, and it's not just a fun
content.
Well, he's also very insightfuland smart yeah like clearly
he's been studying esotericpractices for a while now.
He knew a lot, and I was like,oh, I'm in over my head with
(06:30):
this conversation a little bit.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
Yeah Well, no, I wasn't, I felt good.
But you've been studying,you've been looking up different
deities and all that sure, allthat stuff too, but you know,
josh takes us on a voyagethrough, like how he started off
in evangelical christianity andthen went through, um, like
alistair crowley style uhoccultism all the way to
(06:54):
hinduism and he's very studiedand now he, he, he deprograms
people from bad, traditional uhchristianity programs dogma, or
like just that heavy structureof religion yeah, it makes
people feel like stuck in onebelief system stuck, but also
(07:16):
like like you're not good enough.
Yeah, like tied to it in aunhealthy way.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
Yeah, I think this conversation will really
resonate with anyone who isstruggling, or has struggled in
the past, with leaving a veryreligious environment.
Yeah, yeah, and I feel likeit's so relatable for so many,
even some of the people who havewritten to us or talk to us or
like past guests.
It's such a common thing.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
Religious trauma is a real.
It's a big deal.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
Oh, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's the deal sometimes
yeah quick trigger warningthough, just in case there's
young ears around.
We do mention, like verylightly sex stuff for a minute
and also some drug use, but it'snot too big of a deal.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
So and with that, let's take it away.
Frank.
Roll the tape, josh.
Thank you so much for joiningus today on Claire Voyaging.
Speaker 4 (08:08):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
Yes, we love a good backstory and I love your videos
and I want to know how did youget into this?
Can you tell us a little bit?
Yeah that's wonderful.
Thank you for asking from thebeginning.
Speaker 4 (08:22):
Yeah, that's wonderful, thank you for asking.
I would say I mean, it's got tostart with being raised in a
deeply evangelical Christianhome.
That was my entire world forbasically 26 years.
And I mean, but especially inmy formative years, as a kid and
as a high school or teenager,that I was surrounded by
(08:47):
Christianity to the point that Iwas so steeped in it that I did
not know that there were otherways of thinking.
I did not really.
I knew that there were likesecular people and we, we called
them heretics and we, you know,we judged their sinful ways and
all this and but, it was so.
I mean, it was like it wasprogrammed into me, it was
(09:09):
installed into this brain and itstuck there for a long time
because, yeah, as I grew and gotolder, it was just dawning on
me that this was not the onlyway to operate or the way to
think, and so it took me a longtime to exit that religion and
to sort of untangle all of theimplications of that in my head.
(09:33):
And I think that it's like inmy mid twenties when I started
realizing that all of that stuffwas basically pretend, uh,
pretend it was all lies or justfalsely embedded in me.
Then I was like, well, fuckthen, what is true?
What is actually happening here?
And I've always been aknowledge seeker, so to speak.
(09:57):
I've always been curious aboutother religions and other
spiritual traditions and havebeen a big reader all my life of
fiction and otherwise.
And so, yeah, when I realizedChristianity is not true, I just
basically started gobbling upeverything possible, even if at
the time I thought it wasliterally fake or for crazy
(10:18):
people, like magic, or likepaganism and stuff.
I was like this is fucking nuts, or like paganism and stuff.
I was like this is fucking nuts, this is for screwballs who are
mentally ill.
But then, but then, once Istarted getting into it, I was
like holy shit, there is so muchstuff that's resonating with me
in here and, um, it wasstarting to.
(10:39):
There were truths in there thatwere paralleling my own life,
so to speak, and so then I waslike I don't know, on this grand
adventure, basically, of juststudy and research and and
finding out and practicingeverything that I could, and
ultimately I mean kind ofdabbling in a lot of western
(11:00):
ceremonial magic, then a lot ofum, vedanta teachings and
literature and uh, uh I can'tthink of the term kriya, kriya,
yoga and deep meditation, jewishmysticism, kabbalah, um, and
kind of realizing how all ofthese systems and all these
(11:22):
spiritual traditions arereflections of the same basic
source of light.
And even doing all this studygave me kind of a hindsight
appreciation for Christianity ina way, or at least Christian
mysticism, and realizing thatChrist was probably an
enlightened being who wascommunicating a certain truth,
(11:43):
but it wasn't to build churchesand like worship him.
He was trying to show peoplethe divinity that they already
had within themselves.
And so, yeah, that was ascattered answer, but that's
kind of what it is.
I'm still fascinated bycontinuing to learn and research
, but have a little bit morecontext now, because I can see
(12:05):
it all as just like, yeah,different cultures, expression
of engaging with divinity, andthat all these practices are
essentially just to get a personto wake up to their own true
nature.
So my work now tends to.
I mean, the videos I make forTikTok and YouTube are just
(12:25):
trying to get people torecognize that, I guess in an
entertaining, engaging way thatlike you don't have to be glued
to any one way of thinking orsystem and just have some
openness about all of it.
It can all be valid from acertain perspective, but you're
never locked into like one dogmaor set of rules and um, that,
(12:48):
ultimately it's.
It's all about waking up toyour true self.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
So let me ask you a couple of questions real quick.
Sure, Um, how long did it takefor you to untangle the
evangelical narrative that youthat was, like you know, the
foundation of your, yourknowledge into the spiritual
world?
Speaker 4 (13:08):
and what made you want to yeah, yeah, uh, I would
say in some ways it's stillhappening.
Like sure, there are still oldremnants of that that will rear
its head, mostly the belief thatsomething in the universe is
judging me.
Even though I don't literallybelieve in a father God anymore,
(13:32):
that pattern was so deeply inthere that, um, yeah, I will
catch myself feeling bad forsomething or feeling like maybe
I fucked up or maybe I'm beingblocked from manifesting the
life I want, because, whateverreason, because I haven't been
good enough, and so that one I'mstill wrestling with of like,
(13:53):
and ultimately all that judgmentis just coming from within.
Sure imagination and learning toreset my system and believe in
a loving universe in which I amGod, in this body, and everyone
else is too, and that, of course, I deserve to have every good
(14:14):
thing.
So that's part of it, I wouldsay.
Ultimately, it was like a fourto six year journey where and I
mean, one of the foundationalauthors for me was Richard Rohr,
who is a Franciscan priest, sohe's still in the Catholic world
(14:36):
, but this dude is so beautifulin the way that he speaks and
has a very non-dual way oftalking about Christ speaks and
has a very non dual way oftalking about Christ and so that
I'd like found him at exactlythe right time in maybe 2016 or
2018.
And it was just, it was likecracking open a broader view of
(14:58):
what Christianity could be andwho Christ was, and, um, that
that was really helpful for me,like a stepping stone out of
that, and I guess, yeah, it wasjust a desire to know, like I
have a deep longing to just knowwhat is happening here, to know
(15:19):
the truth and to know the truenature of reality and the true
nature of myself, and so thatwas the urge, was to just try to
understand what was happeningand who I am and what all this
is about.
And I feel a lot more calm nowthan I used, to a sort of
(15:40):
surrender to like, yes, there'sa ton of mystery and there's so
much I don't understand, butI've also been shown there's
like a clear pattern going on,um, where, yeah, I've just come
to believe that all of this isone awareness, experiencing
itself through infinitely vastincarnations, including animals
(16:02):
and and trees, and like non orinanimate objects, that all of
this is just pure awareness, andso that helps just bring some
clarity and context to anythingthat I read and absorb these
days and like why does magicwork?
It's because we're literallyGod and the more that we're in
(16:23):
touch with our divinity, we canmake those changes in reality,
and that reality is flexible.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
That's very funny.
I have also calmed down quite abit.
I had my period there where itwas just rage and you know,
because my big thing was, Ithink my stepping stones out of
the church was, of course, likethe context of being in church
is always like, oh, you got tobe a good person and all this
(16:50):
stuff.
But then it became.
Then it became like you be agood person the way we want you
to be a good person.
And then, very slowly, some ofthe leaders in my particular
circle were like, listen, youcan never help people, Like
you're never really going tohelp people.
You're doing this because itgrows your personal relationship
with, with, like God andeverything.
(17:13):
At some point I was like, wait,so I'm selfishly helping people
.
And then, like it made mereally take a step back and look
at the entire church and how itfunctions and how much like
control is built into the systemto keep people you know on on
the rails it's so.
Speaker 4 (17:29):
It's so arbitrary within those systems what is
okay and what's not okay it isarbitrary and it's different
from one uh congregation toanother, you know.
Or or one um genre I'm notthinking of the right term, but
you know and that's so confusingfor any given person right to,
(17:49):
to have these complex set ofrules and like this is sin, but
this is not, and yeah uh, andthen the weird catholic thing of
where you can kind of dowhatever you want as long as you
confess and do enough prayers,and all that stuff yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
Right, yeah, definitely.
Maybe the origin of my distastefor authority is right there.
But yeah, and then and then, inaddition to that, okay, so
you've done all the things, soyou should be a good person, but
do you believe our fake storiesnow?
Like, like, this little, thislittle way for your eating is
actually Jesus.
(18:23):
Every Sunday we turn thislittle piece of shit into Jesus
and you have to eat him like acannibal.
It's like I was like wait aminute, but I did all the other
stuff and now I'm bad because II'm not fully bought into this
weird shit.
So, yeah, it was, it's a blast,it's so much fun as a thing to
have to overcome, right.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
Absolutely.
I really it's a blast.
It's so much fun as a thing tohave to overcome, right,
absolutely.
I really love your honesty,though, about like um, you're
still struggling with thejudgment thing.
I feel like is such a big yeah,that's such a big thing, like
whether you're doing am I doingthe right thing according to who
you know, like that's so, it'sso interesting and feeling like
(19:08):
you're, like you're being judged, but then ultimately it's just,
it's just your own voice goinglike oh, no way, no, I was told
not to do this, but that right,have to undo that, like unwind
that belief or whatever totally.
Speaker 4 (19:26):
yeah, it's huge, and it's like there's real brain
pattern chemistry happeningthere where those those rhythms
are like built into your wholeway of thinking and operating
and that takes some time to liketear down those neural super
highways and create new paths ofthinking.
Yeah, um, one of the things Ikind of harp on in my
(19:50):
deprogramming christianityworkshop that I put on youtube
is like encouraging people towho who specifically are leaving
religion, to like trigger yourown shit and go do something
that you previously wouldn'thave allowed yourself to do,
whether it's masturbate or cussor like you know within, within
reason.
Don't go committing anyfelonies, but like do do
(20:14):
something bad and then, whenthat voice comes in of like you
did a bad thing, just be likewhose voice is that actually and
do I actually feel bad aboutthis?
And then just kind of like sitwith it and work through that.
And it probably takes more thanonce, but I mean cause these
Christian values are evenembedded into our society as a
(20:35):
Christian nation, even forpeople who are not religious.
It's like there are so manymessages in the corporate world
or in the government world thatlike if you're a bad citizen,
you don't get to.
Dah, dah, dah, you don't get tocontinue having freedom or or
this, these ways of keepingpeople under control and keeping
them stuck, and I do believethat we're in a phase of history
(20:57):
where that is changing.
I don't know what that's goingto look like.
Um and I'm kind of a littlescoundrelly anarchist in a way,
but I don't think that that'sgoing to look like.
Um, and I'm kind of a littlescoundrelly anarchist in a way,
but I don't think that that hasto look like violence.
I think it just has to looklike finding new ways outside of
these government systems forpeople to live and be in
community with each other.
And um, that's very much whenI'm still working out because
(21:20):
we're still under a lot of thesesystems, but it's it's clear
that they're failing and thatthey don't work and they take
advantage of people.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
Yeah, oh, absolutely yeah and yes, you're using like
fear and and doubt, and all thatto just control the situation
yes, you are in good scoundrelcompany here.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
Good, yeah, I'm always trying to find out
exactly what the you know,because I want to in my own, in
my own spiritual practice, Iwant to be, you know, uh,
positive and someone that peoplecome to when they need to be
boosted up.
But I know in my heart of heartsthat what I am is a tear down
of old systems, right, andthat's kind of like my role in,
(22:09):
in general, yeah, is is istilling the soil, is what I call
it all the time.
Yeah, and so a lot of it is forme, like you know, I I do still
like write angry music or musicthat, like you know, is
supposed to be help withreprogramming or, um, um, you
know, I make some angrypolitical art and stuff like
that, but more in the sense ofnot just being edgy and mean, to
(22:31):
be mean in a way of like youshould be questioning this stuff
too, kind of thing, you know,yes, so, yeah, and what, from
from where?
Where we go from here?
It will be very interestingbecause we are what the hell's
going on right now, right, yeah.
Speaker 4 (22:48):
It's like.
I mean, in some ways it seemslike a necessary process that
might be painful and difficultfor a lot of us, but, yeah,
maybe just a broader awakeningto the fact that the people who
are running this shit arescumbags who do not have your
best interest in mind and that Ihope ultimately, in en masse,
(23:12):
that people will be like uh,what if we just didn't do what
you said?
you know, like how about we'rejust gonna do our own thing over
here and like there's more ofus than there are, than than you
?
Speaker 2 (23:22):
yeah, yeah, you mentioned a couple of of
practices that I'm not familiarwith and I'd love to know more.
I wrote it down phonetically,so correct me when I say this
wrong vedanta, vedanta, vedantasure, yeah, vedanta, and like
who?
Speaker 4 (23:37):
who cares about pronunciation?
It's, it doesn't matter.
Uh, that's just a particularbranch of Hinduism that is.
Their whole thing is that istrying to get their
practitioners to wake up to anon-dual reality.
So non-dual meaning there arenot two things in the universe,
there's one thing in the wholeuniverse and we are already part
(24:01):
of it, but that realizing thatwith a capital R is the moment
of enlightenment.
And enlightenment can be atricky word, the way it's thrown
around online, because it cansound very gatekeepy and like
holier than thou.
People talk about beingenlightened, all this shit, and
it's like it's a.
(24:21):
It's a physical, biologicalchange in your system, the
moment after which you are neverthe same.
Yeah, and.
I have not experienced this, bythe way, I've only had it
described to me, but they callit a Samadhi, which is where
basically all awareness ofeverything goes away and you
(24:42):
realize what you actually areand that this universe is all
one and it's also nothing at allin this way.
That completely doesn't makesense.
But, um, yeah, it's just abranch of hinduism and I got
really into their, theirliterature, through one of my
mentors along the way and spenta lot of time meditating with
(25:05):
hindu mantras and things likethat, working on the chakras and
and all of that it's reallycool stuff, they, they
definitely the people in indiahave been.
They've had this shit locked infor like 5 000 years they've
been at it.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
Yeah, they're probably looking at us like you,
you idiots you.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
You all pronounced it wrong.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
Oh we're just now talking about chakras.
Guys, get it together, right.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
Wait that term.
What did you call it?
Samadhi?
Mm-hmm, right, can you describethat a little bit more for me,
if you can?
Speaker 4 (25:39):
It's kind of like, as I understand it it is I mean,
mean, it's the whole goal ofdeep meditation, of where the
thinking brain finally quietscompletely and your
consciousness kind of ascends tothe realm of the ether of god,
(26:00):
of um yeah, it's supposed to bepretty undeniable where kind of
the the veil of all of thisexperience goes away and you
realize that the whole time youwere just swimming in awareness
and that kind of all of thisphysical reality is just pretend
(26:22):
, um, and and then the peoplewho experience this have to kind
of adapt back to regular life,because you're just like dazed,
essentially, and like, holy shit, that's God, that's God, I'm
just surrounded by Godeverywhere, and like this is
terrifying, but pretty coolstuff.
(26:42):
The teachers in Hinduism werelittle children who reached
Samadhi at age seven and thenbecame just these little their
entire life.
Their entire karmic path wasjust to be teachers, basically.
And so, yeah, one of my mentorshad reached this point, because
(27:05):
she's an incredibly disciplinedperson who has spent, you know,
thousands of hours meditatingand, uh, helped me.
We would just spend hours onthe phone and I would be asking
her questions about all of thisand how it worked and like it is
this and it's not that and um,so yeah, she helped me a lot.
(27:25):
That's so cool.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
It's so cool how many , how many hours you've put into
this study of just trying tofigure out what the hell's going
on here.
Speaker 4 (27:36):
Yeah, it's, it's fascinating to me.
Um and I I do believe thisconcept exists in other
traditions, for sure it does.
In other traditions, for sureit does.
I mean um in in westernceremonial magic, I think it is
synonymous with knowledge andconversation of the holy
guardian angel, which is alsothis kind of, yeah, breakthrough
(27:59):
point.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
so when you, when you mention western ceremonial
magic, what do you?
What are you referring to?
Is that tied to a particularpractice or is that just like a
non-denominational version?
Speaker 4 (28:10):
oh, yeah it.
It's more or less encompassing,like the golden dawn approach
to magic, magic with a k okay,you know, banishing rituals and
calling on angels and doing thisvery you know, kind of active,
performative form of meditation.
Uh, that ultimately leads tothe same goal.
(28:32):
It's just like clearing out aperson's energetic system so
that they can wake up.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
Yeah, okay, so kind of like the I don't you.
You probably know more aboutthis.
When I hear like golden dawn, Ithink of like turn of the
century, a cultism kind of stuff.
Speaker 4 (28:49):
Okay, yeah, totally yeah, aleister Crowley's crew
and all that they did and he's.
He's a controversial person andlike not everybody loves him,
and I don't even love him thatmuch but uh, I think it's hard
to love.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
That's all.
Speaker 4 (29:21):
That's real stuff.
It's like a real spiritualtechnology and it's just one
optional tool that people canuse if they feel drawn to it.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
It's so funny how prolific Crowley is even now.
What a character.
Absolutely Recently, thepodcast Otherworld did a deep
dive on him in particular I'veseen some documentaries too.
Clearly such a person, a personthat that brought so much of
(29:51):
his own trauma into hispractices as well that like it
sounds like he never reallyfully worked out of but yet
brought so much to the thepractices at the same time.
So interesting totally yes.
Speaker 4 (30:04):
Yeah, now we have the benefit of like therapy and all
this healing language.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
My buddy just needed someone to talk to half that
time.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
It was crazy.
Speaker 4 (30:16):
It was getting dark heroin, I think the the women in
his life he treated horribly,um, but he was tapped into some
real shit and yeah, uh,ultimately that's to our benefit
to at least have the like thatliterature that's still existing
yeah, yeah okay, so that's thebetter side of some of the
(30:41):
practices and building off ofthe not so not the dark stuff.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
So what kind of in that?
Because we haven't reallytalked about that that much in
the show in in your is it?
Is it okay if I call itritualism?
I don't know, sure, okay inyour, like western ritualistic
magic, like how, what does thatlook like for you?
Speaker 4 (31:04):
Yeah, it started with kind of the.
There's all these pre-writtenrituals within this system.
A lot of times, people make uptheir own, but there's also kind
of like the core rituals thatone is supposed to do when
entering into the system,entering into this system, and
(31:29):
so I read a handful of books in2020, during lockdown, is when I
kind of went deep dive on magicspecifically.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
Listen, some of us did a tiger King.
Other people were learning,like you.
It's fine.
Speaker 4 (31:37):
Right, right, well, yeah, I had all this time alone
at home and um, so ended upreading this stuff and what that
practically looked like was,yeah, these uh rituals that you
do at an altar and you can weara robe and build your own wand
(31:57):
and do all this other stuff yourbrain but it's ultimately about
like calling in higher forms ofuh energy to help cleanse your
system and like I believe thatthese magical rituals are just a
(32:22):
different format that you couldalso just do sitting in
meditation with your breath.
But, yeah, you're calling onarchangels, which are really
interesting creatures, reallyinteresting entities, but
they're relatively easy to getin touch with.
And engaging with these formscertainly does something to
(32:49):
one's energy body and to theiraura and starts just
accelerating your karma.
For one thing, it often leadsto like some pretty wild shit
getting stirred up and somedifficult things happening, but
all for the purpose of gettingyou closer to awakening.
And so, yeah, I spent a coupleof years doing banishing rituals
every single day, which arejust like clearing the energy
(33:13):
around me and calling in higher,you know, light and love and
all this stuff, and, uh, it didhave a tangible effect.
Um, that's kind of hard todescribe.
But ultimately all that stuffled me to Hinduism, and then I
just dropped all the ritual andjust meditated.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
It's very fun when I often the more I've learned
about all this stuff hearingabout the actual formal
ritualism, the rob, the robes,the wand, all that stuff like um
, nothing I've ever particularlypracticed, but like hearing
about how it's, more than anyanything supposed to like elicit
a certain like brain, you know,brainwave from you to, so that
(34:03):
you are, I don't know, buyinginto your own shit, I guess.
So you know, like gettingyourself into a mindset of
manifestation and makingsomething special, which is why
here on the show we have atheory that everybody who's
Christian is secretly a witch,and that's what mass is You're
in it to be witchy, and I'msorry if you don't believe it,
(34:23):
but it's true.
Speaker 4 (34:26):
Catholic church.
Mass is such an occult ritual.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
It's so occult they don't even realize it.
Speaker 4 (34:33):
Yeah, totally.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
It's very fun.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
I mean, the thing behind so much of thing is just
the intention behind it.
Whether it's a prayer or aritual, or lighting a candle, or
doing a spell or meditating,it's like, absolutely I have the
(34:59):
intention of creating thisthing or manifesting this thing,
or or connecting with anarchangel.
Speaker 2 (35:08):
Totally so.
Can you sense angels?
Speaker 1 (35:11):
Yeah, I was just about to there.
Speaker 4 (35:15):
There will it's.
I would say, yes, I don't havethat ability super locked in,
but there will be times duringmeditation or sometimes in
ceremony, like, uh, takingpsilocybin mushrooms with other
people, which I've done ahandful of times, or even even
(35:35):
cannabis honestly makes thosechannels a little more clear in
my case, um, I I'm able to tellif something is present and I
can usually get a name.
Um, it's not always an angel.
Sometimes it's something elseand it's it's so vague and
(35:56):
abstract but I've come to trustit, to trust that, like, what's
coming in is is accurate, um,and and sometimes it's something
that has like picked up on yourenergy from the astral that you
have to just be like, hey, youdon't need to be here, um, and
that can be problematic for forsome people sometimes.
(36:17):
But, um, yeah, more or less,yes, I can, and the ones that
I've worked with repeatedly,specifically archangel rel and
Archangel Michael, are theirenergetic wavelength is very
clear to me.
They're, they're like verydistinct entities and they're
great dudes who have helped meout a lot.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
Raphael's the healer right.
Is that his thing?
Yeah, Okay.
Speaker 4 (36:44):
Yeah, and he's got a lot of association with Hermes,
the Greek God, herm hermes, bigfan of hermes.
Yeah, yeah, totally recentlyyeah, right, yeah, mercury
energy.
Uh, hermes is like themessenger and he is particularly
helpful for people who are kindof like just launching into
(37:04):
this journey with magic.
He's he.
Speaker 2 (37:07):
He does seem like a very benevolent, helpful entity
who's like trying to give youmore information to keep going
my favorite that I I I startedmaybe one day I'll do like a
special episode, but I'm I'mdiving into like the uh, what do
you want to call it?
Like how hermeticism was evendeveloped as a religion on my
(37:30):
own time.
This is on my own timelisteners.
And uh, it's so funny like thatat some point, the world
decided to pick out what seemslike to be an obscure, not
all-powerful deity, such ashermes, and and build an entire
religion based off of him andthe ancient Egyptian God of
Thoth, and like be like oh, thisis like the path we all should
(37:55):
be following.
It's not like you know, it'snot the big hitters, it's not
the Zeus's out there, it's it'slittle little Hermes, but for a
very good reason.
I think it's very fun.
Um, so, when you are when yousaid you picked up a few names,
is this, is this something thatyou were just like knowing, or
is it something you actuallyhear?
Speaker 4 (38:14):
Yeah, it's all just in within my head.
Yeah, and the way I've come totrust that it's real is that
it's usually so fucking randomand something that I, in in some
cases, like a name that I didnot know or recognize and had to
look up later.
(38:35):
Oh, wow.
So, yeah, that's been prettycool and that's what makes me
trust it.
And, yeah, the longer I've beendoing this, I am able to just
trust it.
But, uh, early on in magic, Iwas having very intense dreams,
like dreams the sort of which Ihave never had before.
(38:57):
There was something clearlydifferent about them and, in a
few cases, uh, deities wereshowing up, like ishtar and, uh,
krishna, and I had zero contextfor these guys.
What are you doing here?
Right, truly, and and so, andand.
(39:17):
Then it ended up that, like,those entities had a particular
kind of thing to teach me atthat point.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
Um, is that because you were delving into, like
hindu related practices?
You think they showed upbecause, like, oh, this guy's,
this guy's calling our phonenumber?
Speaker 4 (39:34):
for sure, krishna.
Yes, indeed, um, ishtar wasreally random because she's an
assyrian goddess who doesn'tknow, that is yeah, yeah, she's
kind of intense, um, definitelylike a severe, kind of like a
goddess of war, but there's alsoa very sexual sensual nature
(39:55):
about her.
That frightened me a little bitat the beginning, but now I
think it's pretty awesome yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:04):
That sounds like a Lilith-type deity.
Speaker 4 (40:06):
Right, yeah, yeah, totally In that same vein, for
sure, inanna Ishtar.
A Lilith type deity, right,yeah, yeah, totally, she's in
that same vein, for sure, inannaIshtar.
Lilith are all on a verysimilar divine mother wavelength
.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
This is fun.
I'm having a great time rightnow Wonderful.
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (40:20):
I love this stuff.
Speaker 1 (40:22):
I just wanted, I love to like, I'm always so curious
to know for people who made sucha turn away from a church or
like a religion how did how didthat shift?
Like your family dynamic oryour friends dynamic?
Speaker 4 (40:42):
totally, yeah, massive change, I would say.
Even with all the stuff I puton the internet, my parents are
still relatively unaware of whatI do, and I don't yeah, I don't
mind keeping it that way.
They're both still, yeah,devoted Christians.
I think it would make theirhair stand on end some of the
(41:06):
things that I've done, butthat's cool.
And, yeah, I would say myentire friend group changed,
yeah, because, yeah, I wasliving in Denver in 2020, which
was when my wife at the time andI moved here, and all of those
people are Christians and Istill love them and respect them
(41:29):
and appreciate them.
But, what I'm doing now.
They're just like they can'teven understand what's happening
.
They yeah they probably thinkI've gone crazy or am just
deeply lost in my sin, and so myfriend group now is pretty
small, and I don't mind that.
(41:50):
I just need a few core, closepeople who are also thinking
about these things and workingon themselves and that I can get
as weird as I want to and theystill understand.
Speaker 2 (42:00):
Yeah, that's great.
You said earlier in theinterview that you have come
back around to having anappreciation for the evangelical
practice in a certain way.
Speaker 4 (42:15):
Can you speak to that a little bit?
Yeah, I do think there is acertain validity to the Bible.
You know there's some prettymagical stuff in there, and I
think where people are mistakenis taking it as a literal
historical document.
But if you view it as moremagical or whatever term you
(42:38):
want to use if you take thoselessons and those words of
Christ or the other OldTestament stories, you can glean
some cool shit from it.
And even Father God of the OldTestament as an archetype is
pretty interesting.
And so, yeah, I guess the mostinteresting thing to me is
(42:59):
Christ as an archetype, Christas a human representation of
Christ consciousness, which Ithink has appeared in forms like
Krishna and like the Buddha,that they were channeling
basically the same thing andthat Jesus was trying to tell
people the kingdom of heaven iswithin you.
(43:21):
Like that's the end of sentence.
That's the summary of the wholeBible and they were like oh,
the Bible right there.
Speaker 2 (43:28):
Yeah Right, the Bible distilled by Josh right there.
One sentence, Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (43:33):
To quote that too, yeah.
Speaker 4 (43:35):
Yeah, he does yeah.
Right.
So I guess, yeah, it's like Ican I can appreciate it.
I can pick up the book ofPsalms and and of Psalms and get
something kind of cool out ofit, and some of it I don't know
why it's in there Some of it'spretty boring, or maybe embedded
with some sort of written incode that I don't understand.
(43:56):
But yeah, and part of what Iwant to encourage people with
who are like what I do with inmy therapy work or in my
spiritual coaching, whichessentially is people who are
exiting Christianity and arekind of spiraling with not
knowing what to believe, ofencouraging them that, like, if
(44:17):
you felt like you connected withsomething spiritual or that was
God, that's still real, you canstill reintegrate that into
your experience.
It's just that the lens youwere seeing it through was maybe
incorrect.
Speaker 1 (44:29):
Yeah, that's great.
I'm sure that's that's gotta bereally helpful too.
Speaker 2 (44:33):
It's so helpful.
I mean if, like you're saying,like you, you the one thing, if
you're going to grow upevangelical or Christian or
Catholic at all, the one thingyou can walk away with is that
Jesus is pretty cool as a dudeand let's work with that.
Everything else around it wasis structure built by not him
and, like you can shed it veryeasily and just move forward
(44:56):
with the practices and then, youknow, get into.
Every single traditionalreligion has a that like secret
mysticism undercurrent that ifyou, if you can catch a ride on
that you're, you're going allthe way to the top.
I always say I've never saidthat in my life, but I'm saying
that's great that's a great wayto put it.
Speaker 1 (45:16):
Yeah, that's so true, right was there like or is
there a practice that um hashelped you more with like kind
of healing trauma from you know,childhood or whenever?
Speaker 4 (45:34):
I think most of that has come through conventional
therapy.
Yeah, you know talk therapy andEMDR and internal family
systems, which I've been doingsome new rounds of therapy
really recently around that offinding, you know, these little
characters within me,essentially like these little
(45:56):
personalities that I've createdover the years that are
performing a function within mypsyche that they, like the
critical voice thinks it's beinghelpful, it's trying to be,
it's trying to motivate me tokeep moving in life and and it
thinks it's being helpful.
But like doing internal familysystems work, talking to that
(46:16):
little guy and being like youknow what was the age that you
were hurt, what is the storyaround why you're being this way
?
yeah and then and then learningto integrate that.
So I feel like the spiritualwork has I mean, if anything,
meditating has just just calmingmy body and nervous system
(46:39):
through breath work has beenreally effective in just
generally having a calmer systemin order to operate better in
the world.
But yeah, the healing hasmostly been in therapy.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:53):
That like catching the little voices.
How'd you put that?
Speaker 4 (47:02):
Yeah, just seeing what they have to say and why
they're operating how they are,but it is very much like
characters inside us.
Speaker 2 (47:08):
Yeah, that's such a practice of self-awareness.
That's so cool.
Speaker 1 (47:12):
That takes a lot of work to do yeah yeah, it's
powerful stuff, for sure haveyou um like done any any, have
you or have you learned any likehealing modalities, like like
re Reiki or any energy healingLike?
Since you've been on I mean,you've been on such a like
learning quest?
Speaker 4 (47:33):
Sure, I would say to.
To a certain degree I thinkthat is a gift that might be
within me, that that I haven'tfully awakened or like fully
tuned it in.
But um, I've been told itsounds funny to say it this way
(47:54):
but that I have healing hands.
This has been mostly from youknow, former partners and stuff,
but like kind of just havingthem lay flat and like getting
into kind of a meditative statemyself and trying to channel
golden, healing, beautiful lightand just like moving it through
(48:15):
their system and stuff has beeneffective, especially during
psilocybin ceremony.
That that gets really like thevolume on that gets cranked up
in a cool way.
Yeah.
And so I I do think it's there.
It's not something I'veexperimented with that much Um,
(48:35):
but also using that method formyself within, like trying to,
you know, literally view thelittle cells of my body and all
my organs and stuff, trying tomake them glow, golden and be
like we're the happiest, mosthealthy cells in the whole world
.
And like that meditating onthings like that, even for short
periods, can have an effect ofjust like damn.
(48:56):
I do feel good, you know.
Speaker 2 (48:58):
Yeah, I feel like you will.
Reiki isn't I mean, I didn't goto any classes like Lauren did,
lauren's did lauren's a reikimaster, but um, she has attuned
me to like the lower levels ofreiki practitionership you're
due for master I am but I feellike you'll like it.
It's very, it's chill.
Speaker 1 (49:16):
It's nowhere near as in-depth as some of the the
ritualistic stuff that you havestudied, but like it's very cool
it's why I asked, because Ijust kind of got a feeling that,
like with you have like so muchin your, in your toolbox, so I
feel like you'd be like apowerhouse to just have that
energy healing.
I mean, you already said it'sin you.
Speaker 2 (49:38):
It's also very easy to integrate into anything
you're working with already.
Yeah, it could be a fun thingfor you.
Speaker 4 (49:44):
Nice yeah, I love it could be a fun thing for you,
nice.
Yeah, I love it.
Just on the flip side of that,while I'm thinking about it, I
absolutely believe that there'sa strong degree of people
developing illnesses or diseasesbased upon their stress or
trauma, that it just gets lockedin those points of the body,
(50:04):
and so I want to be careful that, not telling people they can
heal themselves and they don'tneed a doctor, but the more that
you can put your system at easeand work with these tools in
addition to medical help, that,yeah, I do think things like
cancer and organ disease developbecause of stress and trauma
(50:27):
disease develop because ofstress and trauma.
Speaker 1 (50:28):
Yeah, I mean when you think of like everything being
energy and then having liketrauma that you just like kind
of stick somewhere because youcan't face it or deal with it or
want to heal it, like it'sgoing to just kind of keep
festering or moving around inyour body somehow.
Speaker 2 (50:45):
I mean, yeah, I mean I'm very, I love science, I love
medicine, but also, but also,the like you know, you can't.
I've seen some things floatingon the internet lately about how
the body reacts.
Like a battery, right, and Italk to my daughter all the time
about how you encounter thingsout in the world and you're
(51:06):
going to have an emotion aboutit, and that's okay and you're
supposed to let it flow throughyou, like, like energy flows
through a battery, right.
But the second you try to catchit and hold onto it and then
justify its existence is whenyou that festering starts, right
, yeah, and that sucks and likethat.
That has made me ill in thepast, you know or acting like it
(51:26):
doesn't exist, like the samething.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (51:30):
Yeah, I mean, there's either like holding on to it
and like not letting go ofsomething from the past and
making it like part of yourstory, or completely ignoring it
, and I think that, like,ignorance is bliss kind of thing
, but it's bliss, it's yeahbliss kind of thing, but it's,
(51:50):
yeah, bliss, it's.
Speaker 2 (51:50):
Yeah, I mean, you have, you have a bunch of,
you'll always have.
The world of science identifiesa problem and then they move
forward from there and thenthey'll theoretically determine,
like, what started it, but it'salways like we don't know.
You know, there are peoplewho've smoked for 50 years and
never got cancer.
There are people who smoke 10minutes and got cancer and then
they'll must be, must be thecigarettes, like no one really
knows.
I do think that a lot ofdiseases probably come about
(52:11):
from some kind of trauma, somekind of emotional trauma.
But who the fuck are we?
Is there what of?
Of the practices that you'vestudied and learned about?
What has been the hands downthe most influential on you and
your spiritual development?
Speaker 4 (52:27):
Yeah, I think I would have to say magic, just because
it created a change that wasundeniable, um, and kind of
opened me up and set me up forthe next stages.
Um, it was so.
(52:48):
I mean, the video that I'mmaking right now, a long form
YouTube video, is just calledhow to open your third eye,
because, yeah, that's more thanjust a spiritual metaphor.
It's a real physical,biological change that you will
feel and experience.
And it's not something I deeplyunderstand, but I'm just taking
(53:10):
people through the steps of howthat happened.
Understand, but I'm just takingpeople through the steps of how
that happened.
And magic was absolutely thestart of that where, after a few
months of doing banishingrituals every single day, I
started to feel a pressure inthe center of my head, like a
finger pushing there, and a kindof like static electricity
(53:31):
sound phenomena around my headthat only got louder and louder.
Um, and there are the hindutexts talk about this phenomena
that, as the pineal glanddecalcifies, that you become
sensitized to new layers ofenergy, that you were kind of
like blocked from before.
(53:51):
And that's the, that's thepiece of me that has made it um,
things like being able torecognize angels or or get those
little downloads much moreclear and um it's.
It was just at the time thiswas happening.
I was like what the fuck yeahthis is so crazy, like it's like
(54:12):
it just bloomed the wholeuniverse open, because I was
like, if this is real, and I'mfeeling it and and like
experiencing these incrediblechanges, I'm like this is
awesome.
Life is a video game.
Like what, what else ispossible?
Um, and I, and that's stillunfolding.
Speaker 1 (54:29):
I still feel like I'm learning stuff all the time,
but yeah, how do you, how do youfeel like that has, I don't
know like, enhanced your likeintuition, like on a day-to-day
basis?
Speaker 4 (54:43):
I think it's just made me way more aware of subtle
energy yeah and uh, whether,whether, like encountering a
person and just being like wow,wow, their energy is bad I need
to avoid them.
Or someone is.
I'm doing a tarot card readingfor someone or talking with a
friend and just getting a senseof like something subtle or
(55:05):
spiritual or like a theme intheir life that would be helpful
for them to hear right now.
Things like that.
Speaker 2 (55:13):
That's kind of an abstract way to put it, but just
being more tapped into stufflike that, we talk about how
true spirituality is really thegame of subtleties and becoming
more aware of them until theyare not so subtle anymore.
We talk about that a lot overhere.
You're making me realize thatthere are two ways to play the
(55:34):
game of spirituality, and thetop one is, or the most
traditional one is, just tolisten to what everyone else is
telling you and like turn, stay,turned off and allow them to
keep being the your masters in away through religion, or to
tune into those subtletiesyourself and like really explore
your own way and and build yourown, build your own practice.
Speaker 4 (55:52):
That's what this is right totally yeah, we're so
smart, it's great stuff no,that's got to help with like I
mean, you're like coaching ohyeah practice too.
Speaker 1 (56:07):
Like, oh, the more tapped in you are, the more
you're able to, like you kind ofhave a, a direct conversation.
Sure, you don't even like,realize necessary.
I mean, you realize it, butlike I don't know Whenever Frank
and I have conversations whereone of us needs to like, know
something, there's like a,there's like a tapped in moment
(56:29):
where, yeah, you know whenyou're in it.
Yeah, opt-in moment where, yeah, you know when you're in it,
yeah, you know when you're inthe zone like he'll be, like
you're oh whoa.
Speaker 4 (56:44):
You feel this way, like I can sense that in my body
and I'm like, yes, right, right, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (56:46):
but like you know, if you're, if you're not paying
attention, it's just like whyare you being so, so sad, right?
Or?
Speaker 2 (56:52):
why are you, why are you pretending to not be so sad?
Speaker 1 (56:56):
or that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, this is formy own clarification.
Speaker 2 (57:00):
When you talk about magic like Wait, how, when you
talk about magic, how do youspell it?
Speaker 1 (57:07):
He said with a K.
Speaker 2 (57:08):
Oh, yeah, yeah, With a K at the end.
Oh, I missed that part.
A CK, a CK right.
Yeah, CK is cool.
Speaker 1 (57:19):
Also, maybe I could just Google this, but how is
that equal to witchcraft, Like?
Is that the same?
Are they one in the same ordifferent?
Speaker 4 (57:35):
I would say there's, I'm sure practicing witches
would have, you know, widelyvarying definitions of this, but
yeah I, I believe, yeah,western ceremonial magic in the
golden dawn tradition is aboutawakening and becoming in touch
with one's true will and theirholy guardian angel.
(57:55):
Witchcraft can often be alittle more grounded and a lot
more about trying to justinfluence your own reality, like
manifest money or trying to geta partner or make changes in
your life, and that stuff isreal, it's all valid, uh.
But I think a lot of thepaganism is doesn't have that
(58:17):
kind of higher view of like I'mhere to awaken and I'm using
this tool to get there.
Okay, okay, yeah, that'shelpful.
Speaker 2 (58:26):
I think they're all tapping into the same source
from different angles, right,you know what I mean.
Like you, you come at it justlike that's.
That's the name of the game.
Everyone's coming at this froma different angle or a different
cultural inspiration, andwitchcraft definitely is like
the practice of, of manifesting.
Speaker 4 (58:41):
That's what like spell crafting is right that the
aspect of connecting withnature is really cool about
paganism of just honoring, uh,the, the earth, the soil, the,
the rocks and, you know, treesand all of that, cause there's
some, there's some power theretoo, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (58:59):
Yeah, we just recently interviewed a psychic
medium, dee Dee Hawk, and shehears, she, talks, she, she
talks to trees like hears treespirits.
Speaker 2 (59:11):
Like has a two way conversation with trees, which
is like, oh my god, that's socool they were like.
Speaker 1 (59:15):
One of them was like gossiping to her, like do you
know what they're doing at thishouse?
Speaker 2 (59:19):
yeah, they're big enough to look inside your
window.
That's why it's so cool yeah inall of your experiences and all
your, your, your learnings.
Is there anything that is stilllike?
That still seems batshit crazyto you, or you just haven't
gotten to yet.
Speaker 4 (59:39):
This.
This is hard to describe, butI've I have met people in the
last four or five years whereI've I've realized that the
power that is available to beachieved watching people change
physical reality right in frontof me, I've realized that the
power that is available to beachieved watching people change
(01:00:01):
physical reality right in frontof me in a way that that does
kind of break one's brain alittle bit of like Holy shit,
Wait, say more yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:00:06):
Cause I've heard of this kind of stuff and I have
not come across it yet, but I, I, it's always.
I heard about it.
I never see it.
It's not like on the internet.
Speaker 4 (01:00:16):
This is.
It's a tricky one, because theperson that I encountered, who
taught me a lot, um, and wasdefinitely tapped into some wild
stuff, was also a very chaoticfigure who did not have control
of their own energy, and so whatthey manifested in their world
around them was problematic.
(01:00:38):
Uh, they were not balanced andgrounded, and I think they had
some dark portals open that theycouldn't close.
Speaker 1 (01:00:45):
I know that's all really abstract but I want the,
I want the juice.
Give me the tea.
Speaker 4 (01:00:51):
Yeah, I things.
Things like this is not exactlychanging reality in front of me
, but she would say things likeyou know, man, I really wish I
had some mushrooms.
And then a stranger would walkup to us within five minutes and
be like, hey, you guys need anymushrooms?
Like just instantaneous thingslike that.
And the biggest change I saw infront of me was that this is
(01:01:19):
really weird, but I'm just goingto describe it.
We were working out of this oldoffice building in Portland.
There's like these, you know,from the 1800s.
These big brick used to be likea John Deere factory or
something where there are nowstudio spaces and offices.
At the time we were working outof this space, the outside of
(01:01:39):
the building was completelyclean and well kept and during
one of her chaotic episodes inwhich she like fled the building
and never returned to it thenext day, that building was
covered in graffiti and likedecrepit and like coming apart.
Like in overnight it changedand even as kind of like a weird
(01:02:00):
symbol of her energy leavingthat place.
And then it was like what?
Speaker 1 (01:02:07):
What yeah?
Speaker 4 (01:02:08):
Yeah, and this person stayed in my home and like some
weird shit happened aroundthere where I felt like it was
literally haunted for a minuteoh wow, they were leaving behind
an imprint or like an energeticright yeah, I wonder if it's
because of their demeanor thatthey're able to like, manifest
weird shit, right?
Speaker 2 (01:02:28):
yeah, like that, that intense, that intense, those
intense emotions, plus thatintense focus in any one
direction that feels chaotic isif it is, if she's just a
manifestation machine, right?
Speaker 1 (01:02:42):
What is with the old building that's so weird?
Speaker 4 (01:02:45):
Right, right, yeah, do you think?
I mean her path to getting tothat point was honestly through
too much drugs, to where I meanit's like it's so tricky because
she was definitely awakened tosome divinity but she didn't
(01:03:10):
have control over it?
Yeah, but she didn't havecontrol over it.
And that's crucial that peoplemaintain, you know, a balanced,
grounded life while openingthemselves up to these things.
Speaker 2 (01:03:23):
Yeah, staying grounded, staying grounded.
Do that.
First Get grounded and thenbuild your belief system.
Yeah, that's scary, that's sointeresting, but also like
frightening to be around thatkind of person for too long.
Speaker 1 (01:03:36):
Sure, yeah, I'd imagine it's like what's next?
That's so intense.
Speaker 4 (01:03:55):
Tell us more about your services and what you offer
came about in a kind ofunexpected way.
From making TikTok videos aboutthings that I'm passionate about
and just thinking out loudabout these ideas, people
started messaging me and justbeing like, oh my God, I've
never resonated so much withsomeone.
Can I please have a call withyou?
And so, yeah, most of the timein the early days it was much
more metaphysical and peoplejust wanted to recount their
(01:04:17):
stories to me, because Iunderstood and because I was a
good listener and kind of helpedcalm them down a little bit or
just affirm that what they'reexperiencing was real and like
maybe some suggestions of whatto do next or what's happening
and what stage they're at intheir path.
And uh, and then through thatit became I mean, it was in
(01:04:42):
meditation that I had the ideafor the deprogramming
Christianity workshop, because II do have a passion for those
people in particular who aregoing through what I went
through of, yeah, just feelingso lost and so confused and not
knowing what to do next.
(01:05:03):
And so that course, yes, it isabout Christianity, but it's
kind of like this subliminal, alittle nudge into metaphysical,
you know, esoteric practices.
And it's like some peoplethat'll go right past their head
.
Others it's going to like clickwith them and then they're
going to follow some path there.
Speaker 2 (01:05:27):
But yeah absolutely Right.
Speaker 4 (01:05:30):
So, yeah, my passion with my work with clients is to
help those people who are inthis still really early days of
realizing they don't believeanymore in Christianity or
Catholicism or Mormonism, andjust being like, what do I do
next?
And oftentimes it's just a lotof listening, which I love, I
(01:05:52):
love.
And then the people are lonelyand they feel misunderstood and
they just want to be heard, andI absolutely love offering that.
Speaker 2 (01:06:01):
It's really in in each of those religions.
There are like certain spacesthat you can find yourself in
where you don't feel like it's asafe place to even ask a
question.
So you providing that alone islike so cool man, yeah totally
yeah and just being able to.
Speaker 4 (01:06:19):
there's a lot of work around the judgment stuff and
around shame and aroundsexuality and, um, I, I can
often I don't know pick up onthose subtleties, even in the
way that a person is describingtheir own story or speaking, the
way they speak about themselvesand how there is maybe this
negative, cynical tinge to it,and just be like dude.
(01:06:40):
You know, it's okay to believein yourself and the reason
you're you're so hard onyourself was because of bullshit
reasons Like that was nevertrue.
Speaker 1 (01:06:49):
That's so cool, that's so great.
Speaker 2 (01:06:51):
All right.
Well, on that great bridge,what a great bridge.
Speaker 4 (01:06:53):
On that note, let's tell everybody where to find you
yeah, well, I would highlyrecommend my deprogramming
christianity workshop, which isjust on youtube and my website
is doctor hyphen gainscom.
Doctor spelled out uh, yeah,and I sent you a link for the
show notes.
But yeah, if folks haveresonated with what I've said
here, I would love to meet youand talk with you and develop a
(01:07:16):
relationship in which I amhelping you know, spur you
forward and like find somedirection and find a lot of
encouragement.
I love to empower my clientsand like really, you know, jazz
them up.
Speaker 1 (01:07:29):
It really sounds like we we have we've heard from
listeners who have are like,either starting to come out of
their religion or, like recentlydid, or you know.
So I feel like this willresonate for sure.
Speaker 2 (01:07:43):
No, that's fantastic.
If you had one piece of adviceto give to people who are
currently trying to break out oftheir of their traditional
religious mold.
What would you say?
Currently trying to break outof their of their?
Speaker 4 (01:07:54):
traditional religious mold.
What would you say?
I think, forgive yourself andtrust yourself.
Um, because if there's anyjudgment or shame that is
lingering from those ideas,those ways of thinking, uh, that
(01:08:14):
there is nothing judging youexcept yourself, and the more
that you can trust your owninner voice and what feels
exciting and true and what youfeel drawn to, that you have
full permission to heretical ordangerous or like satanic, but
(01:08:34):
that, whatever feels true, thatstill quiet voice that you're
most excited about, even if itdoesn't relate to spiritual
things like that, is what youare supposed to move towards.
So, trust yourself.
Speaker 1 (01:08:46):
That's so nice.
Love it, that's so great.
Speaker 2 (01:08:49):
Perfect.
Yeah, that's awesome, josh.
Thank you so much for chattingwith us today.
That was like.
Speaker 4 (01:08:56):
Thank you guys yeah I was fucking blessed.
I love this show, yeah thankyou for listening.
Speaker 2 (01:09:06):
visit clairevoyagingcom for
merchandise or to access freeresources to help you on your
spiritual journey.
Subscribe to our Patreon formore content or join for free to
chat with us.
Clairvoyaging is a fiscallysponsored project of Fractured
Atlas, a 501c3 charity.
Make a tax-deductible donationto support our mission to foster
understanding, respect andcuriosity for diverse spiritual
(01:09:29):
belief systems.
Clairvoyaging is a productionof Wayfeather Media.
Hey friends, in this episode, frank and I talked to
Josh Gaines, a spiritual coachand metaphysical mentor who is
well-studied in various esotericpractices after leaving an
evangelical church.
We talked about deprogrammingChristianity, how guilt and
judgment lingers after leaving avery strict religion and
different spiritual practices,like magic.
(00:21):
I'm Lauren Leon.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
And I'm Frank.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
We are a married couple learning how to develop
our own intuition, and this isepisode 70 of Claire Voyaging.
Wayfeather Media presentsClaire Voyaging.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
What's up everybody Hi, How's it going?
Speaker 1 (00:57):
This time I was trying to do a rap and it was
not going well.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
I was trying to be your hype guy and like it was
just loud, it was just loud, itwas just loud.
No one needed no one neededthat.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
No, hi everyone how's it going?
Um, guys, I hope everyone'sdoing well frank, are you
feeling it today?
Speaker 2 (01:17):
I am feeling something a little bit of
allergies that daddy's got alittle bit of a muscle tension,
he's got a headache, but it's agreat day.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Today's going to be a great day.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
It's a great day it's not a good day to call yourself
daddy.
Nobody likes that Strike thatfrom the record.
Judge.
It stays in.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
But hey, you know what, you know what's some great
news.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Tell me.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
We have some new Patreon friends?
Tell me we have some newPatreon friends.
Are you serious?
Yeah, who Tasha B and Danielle.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Guys.
Thank you, Tasha B and Danielleyes.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Thank you for joining .
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Fun reminder that during April, your first month
of Patreon is only $2.
That's so cheap that one wasloud.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
I broke my microphone , oh my gosh also fun reminder.
We started a new series whereyou know in the intro, the
musical part of our, thebeginning of our show.
Sometimes we try to rap and youcan't hear it because it's not
in the official episode.
But if you want to go, I recordthe rap on my phone.
It's not, it's a mess.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Well, yeah, so there is one up there.
So if you join the communityyou can hear the terrible raps
that Frank improvises behind thescenes.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
If you are.
This time it was you.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Maybe we'll put mine up.
I was rapping about magic.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
You said my rap was terrible, so now it's your turn.
They get to see what you haveto offer.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
And you know what, guys?
It's not much.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
It's not much, it's not much.
It's not looking good.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Spoken like my wonderful husband.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Hey, you know what it's about 13 years.
It's a relationship of honestyand truth.
And sometimes you just got tolook at your significant other
right in the eyes and say youare not a good rapper, you
should stop it at least at leastnot today.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Sometimes, you know, we have good moments, yeah, okay
.
Well, I guess improvising, uh,rap, is not going to be my
future.
I won't have a future in thatsame lin-manuel mir.
Miranda should not be worriedabout me at all.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
His career is secure.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Yeah, okay, you guys.
We have less than two monthsleft of our documentary
fundraising campaign.
Just wanted to put that outthere.
If you'd like to support ourdocumentary about psychic
mediums, go to clearvoyagingcom.
Slash support and click on thelink for the fractured atlas to
donate it's going to be good taxdeductible right frank td as
(03:51):
they say um in the financecommunity yeah, and thank you to
everyone who has supported usthus far thank you so much,
we've got.
We got a long way to go we do,but you know what?
Speaker 2 (04:02):
that's just how fundraising goes.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
Yeah, also keep like keep an eye out, because I want
to do like a little silentauction at some point.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
So we don't know how.
Yep, we'll, we'll figure it out.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
You don't have to leave.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Oh, you know what Fun thing, too, oh is this.
Is this in your notes?
Let me see?
Speaker 3 (04:28):
no, hey, we're gonna do, we're gonna start going live
on occasion on tiktok yikes.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Yeah, we'll um, follow us over there, come,
follow us.
I don't know when we're gonnado it.
We're probably gonna start inthe next like week or so yeah, I
think we're just gonna hop onand say hey and see what anybody
wants to talk about.
It'll be, like a live versionof the show, kind of maybe do a
little.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
We wanted it to kind of be well, yeah, do some
intuitive uh, just chat aboutintuitive development and also
we're just like a live um?
What's it called when you'refundraising like a telethon,
telethon um, yeah does it soundweird?
Speaker 2 (05:03):
because no one said that word in 50 years.
That's why.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
I remember how exciting telethons were when I
was a kid.
Like look at all thosecelebrities answering phones on
stage.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
My memory of telethons is from when they were
trying to raise money for theKatrina victims.
Hurricane Katrina.
Yeah, Kanye West was standingnext to Mike Myers and they were
supposed to stick to the scriptand Kanye was like George Bush
does not care about black people.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
That's right, and that's when that moment happened
.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
It was right.
So funny and so uncomfortable,and poor Mike.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
Myers, I've never seen a man sweat more than that
than he did in that moment.
Yeah, yeah, wow, our livetiktok.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
Content won't be anything like that.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
So no promises, actually, you know what no kanye
as far as yeah, as far as Iknow we don't know kanye or any
connection to him, so anyway,okay, let's get to josh.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
What a cool guy what a cool guy he speaking of tiktok
, he makes fun tiktok content hemakes, and it's not just a fun
content.
Well, he's also very insightfuland smart yeah like clearly
he's been studying esotericpractices for a while now.
He knew a lot, and I was like,oh, I'm in over my head with
(06:30):
this conversation a little bit.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
Yeah Well, no, I wasn't, I felt good.
But you've been studying,you've been looking up different
deities and all that sure, allthat stuff too, but you know,
josh takes us on a voyagethrough, like how he started off
in evangelical christianity andthen went through, um, like
alistair crowley style uhoccultism all the way to
(06:54):
hinduism and he's very studiedand now he, he, he deprograms
people from bad, traditional uhchristianity programs dogma, or
like just that heavy structureof religion yeah, it makes
people feel like stuck in onebelief system stuck, but also
(07:16):
like like you're not good enough.
Yeah, like tied to it in aunhealthy way.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
Yeah, I think this conversation will really
resonate with anyone who isstruggling, or has struggled in
the past, with leaving a veryreligious environment.
Yeah, yeah, and I feel likeit's so relatable for so many,
even some of the people who havewritten to us or talk to us or
like past guests.
It's such a common thing.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
Religious trauma is a real.
It's a big deal.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
Oh, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's the deal sometimes
yeah quick trigger warningthough, just in case there's
young ears around.
We do mention, like verylightly sex stuff for a minute
and also some drug use, but it'snot too big of a deal.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
So and with that, let's take it away.
Frank.
Roll the tape, josh.
Thank you so much for joiningus today on Claire Voyaging.
Speaker 4 (08:08):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
Yes, we love a good backstory and I love your videos
and I want to know how did youget into this?
Can you tell us a little bit?
Yeah that's wonderful.
Thank you for asking from thebeginning.
Speaker 4 (08:22):
Yeah, that's wonderful, thank you for asking.
I would say I mean, it's got tostart with being raised in a
deeply evangelical Christianhome.
That was my entire world forbasically 26 years.
And I mean, but especially inmy formative years, as a kid and
as a high school or teenager,that I was surrounded by
(08:47):
Christianity to the point that Iwas so steeped in it that I did
not know that there were otherways of thinking.
I did not really.
I knew that there were likesecular people and we, we called
them heretics and we, you know,we judged their sinful ways and
all this and but, it was so.
I mean, it was like it wasprogrammed into me, it was
(09:09):
installed into this brain and itstuck there for a long time
because, yeah, as I grew and gotolder, it was just dawning on
me that this was not the onlyway to operate or the way to
think, and so it took me a longtime to exit that religion and
to sort of untangle all of theimplications of that in my head.
(09:33):
And I think that it's like inmy mid twenties when I started
realizing that all of that stuffwas basically pretend, uh,
pretend it was all lies or justfalsely embedded in me.
Then I was like, well, fuckthen, what is true?
What is actually happening here?
And I've always been aknowledge seeker, so to speak.
(09:57):
I've always been curious aboutother religions and other
spiritual traditions and havebeen a big reader all my life of
fiction and otherwise.
And so, yeah, when I realizedChristianity is not true, I just
basically started gobbling upeverything possible, even if at
the time I thought it wasliterally fake or for crazy
(10:18):
people, like magic, or likepaganism and stuff.
I was like this is fucking nuts, or like paganism and stuff.
I was like this is fucking nuts, this is for screwballs who are
mentally ill.
But then, but then, once Istarted getting into it, I was
like holy shit, there is so muchstuff that's resonating with me
in here and, um, it wasstarting to.
(10:39):
There were truths in there thatwere paralleling my own life,
so to speak, and so then I waslike I don't know, on this grand
adventure, basically, of juststudy and research and and
finding out and practicingeverything that I could, and
ultimately I mean kind ofdabbling in a lot of western
(11:00):
ceremonial magic, then a lot ofum, vedanta teachings and
literature and uh, uh I can'tthink of the term kriya, kriya,
yoga and deep meditation, jewishmysticism, kabbalah, um, and
kind of realizing how all ofthese systems and all these
(11:22):
spiritual traditions arereflections of the same basic
source of light.
And even doing all this studygave me kind of a hindsight
appreciation for Christianity ina way, or at least Christian
mysticism, and realizing thatChrist was probably an
enlightened being who wascommunicating a certain truth,
(11:43):
but it wasn't to build churchesand like worship him.
He was trying to show peoplethe divinity that they already
had within themselves.
And so, yeah, that was ascattered answer, but that's
kind of what it is.
I'm still fascinated bycontinuing to learn and research
, but have a little bit morecontext now, because I can see
(12:05):
it all as just like, yeah,different cultures, expression
of engaging with divinity, andthat all these practices are
essentially just to get a personto wake up to their own true
nature.
So my work now tends to.
I mean, the videos I make forTikTok and YouTube are just
(12:25):
trying to get people torecognize that, I guess in an
entertaining, engaging way thatlike you don't have to be glued
to any one way of thinking orsystem and just have some
openness about all of it.
It can all be valid from acertain perspective, but you're
never locked into like one dogmaor set of rules and um, that,
(12:48):
ultimately it's.
It's all about waking up toyour true self.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
So let me ask you a couple of questions real quick.
Sure, Um, how long did it takefor you to untangle the
evangelical narrative that youthat was, like you know, the
foundation of your, yourknowledge into the spiritual
world?
Speaker 4 (13:08):
and what made you want to yeah, yeah, uh, I would
say in some ways it's stillhappening.
Like sure, there are still oldremnants of that that will rear
its head, mostly the belief thatsomething in the universe is
judging me.
Even though I don't literallybelieve in a father God anymore,
(13:32):
that pattern was so deeply inthere that, um, yeah, I will
catch myself feeling bad forsomething or feeling like maybe
I fucked up or maybe I'm beingblocked from manifesting the
life I want, because, whateverreason, because I haven't been
good enough, and so that one I'mstill wrestling with of like,
(13:53):
and ultimately all that judgmentis just coming from within.
Sure imagination and learning toreset my system and believe in
a loving universe in which I amGod, in this body, and everyone
else is too, and that, of course, I deserve to have every good
(14:14):
thing.
So that's part of it, I wouldsay.
Ultimately, it was like a fourto six year journey where and I
mean, one of the foundationalauthors for me was Richard Rohr,
who is a Franciscan priest, sohe's still in the Catholic world
(14:36):
, but this dude is so beautifulin the way that he speaks and
has a very non-dual way oftalking about Christ speaks and
has a very non dual way oftalking about Christ and so that
I'd like found him at exactlythe right time in maybe 2016 or
2018.
And it was just, it was likecracking open a broader view of
(14:58):
what Christianity could be andwho Christ was, and, um, that
that was really helpful for me,like a stepping stone out of
that, and I guess, yeah, it wasjust a desire to know, like I
have a deep longing to just knowwhat is happening here, to know
(15:19):
the truth and to know the truenature of reality and the true
nature of myself, and so thatwas the urge, was to just try to
understand what was happeningand who I am and what all this
is about.
And I feel a lot more calm nowthan I used, to a sort of
(15:40):
surrender to like, yes, there'sa ton of mystery and there's so
much I don't understand, butI've also been shown there's
like a clear pattern going on,um, where, yeah, I've just come
to believe that all of this isone awareness, experiencing
itself through infinitely vastincarnations, including animals
(16:02):
and and trees, and like non orinanimate objects, that all of
this is just pure awareness, andso that helps just bring some
clarity and context to anythingthat I read and absorb these
days and like why does magicwork?
It's because we're literallyGod and the more that we're in
(16:23):
touch with our divinity, we canmake those changes in reality,
and that reality is flexible.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
That's very funny.
I have also calmed down quite abit.
I had my period there where itwas just rage and you know,
because my big thing was, Ithink my stepping stones out of
the church was, of course, likethe context of being in church
is always like, oh, you got tobe a good person and all this
(16:50):
stuff.
But then it became.
Then it became like you be agood person the way we want you
to be a good person.
And then, very slowly, some ofthe leaders in my particular
circle were like, listen, youcan never help people, Like
you're never really going tohelp people.
You're doing this because itgrows your personal relationship
with, with, like God andeverything.
(17:13):
At some point I was like, wait,so I'm selfishly helping people
.
And then, like it made mereally take a step back and look
at the entire church and how itfunctions and how much like
control is built into the systemto keep people you know on on
the rails it's so.
Speaker 4 (17:29):
It's so arbitrary within those systems what is
okay and what's not okay it isarbitrary and it's different
from one uh congregation toanother, you know.
Or or one um genre I'm notthinking of the right term, but
you know and that's so confusingfor any given person right to,
(17:49):
to have these complex set ofrules and like this is sin, but
this is not, and yeah uh, andthen the weird catholic thing of
where you can kind of dowhatever you want as long as you
confess and do enough prayers,and all that stuff yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
Right, yeah, definitely.
Maybe the origin of my distastefor authority is right there.
But yeah, and then and then, inaddition to that, okay, so
you've done all the things, soyou should be a good person, but
do you believe our fake storiesnow?
Like, like, this little, thislittle way for your eating is
actually Jesus.
(18:23):
Every Sunday we turn thislittle piece of shit into Jesus
and you have to eat him like acannibal.
It's like I was like wait aminute, but I did all the other
stuff and now I'm bad because II'm not fully bought into this
weird shit.
So, yeah, it was, it's a blast,it's so much fun as a thing to
have to overcome, right.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
Absolutely.
I really it's a blast.
It's so much fun as a thing tohave to overcome, right,
absolutely.
I really love your honesty,though, about like um, you're
still struggling with thejudgment thing.
I feel like is such a big yeah,that's such a big thing, like
whether you're doing am I doingthe right thing according to who
you know, like that's so, it'sso interesting and feeling like
(19:08):
you're, like you're being judged, but then ultimately it's just,
it's just your own voice goinglike oh, no way, no, I was told
not to do this, but that right,have to undo that, like unwind
that belief or whatever totally.
Speaker 4 (19:26):
yeah, it's huge, and it's like there's real brain
pattern chemistry happeningthere where those those rhythms
are like built into your wholeway of thinking and operating
and that takes some time to liketear down those neural super
highways and create new paths ofthinking.
Yeah, um, one of the things Ikind of harp on in my
(19:50):
deprogramming christianityworkshop that I put on youtube
is like encouraging people towho who specifically are leaving
religion, to like trigger yourown shit and go do something
that you previously wouldn'thave allowed yourself to do,
whether it's masturbate or cussor like you know within, within
reason.
Don't go committing anyfelonies, but like do do
(20:14):
something bad and then, whenthat voice comes in of like you
did a bad thing, just be likewhose voice is that actually and
do I actually feel bad aboutthis?
And then just kind of like sitwith it and work through that.
And it probably takes more thanonce, but I mean cause these
Christian values are evenembedded into our society as a
(20:35):
Christian nation, even forpeople who are not religious.
It's like there are so manymessages in the corporate world
or in the government world thatlike if you're a bad citizen,
you don't get to.
Dah, dah, dah, you don't get tocontinue having freedom or or
this, these ways of keepingpeople under control and keeping
them stuck, and I do believethat we're in a phase of history
(20:57):
where that is changing.
I don't know what that's goingto look like.
Um and I'm kind of a littlescoundrelly anarchist in a way,
but I don't think that that'sgoing to look like.
Um, and I'm kind of a littlescoundrelly anarchist in a way,
but I don't think that that hasto look like violence.
I think it just has to looklike finding new ways outside of
these government systems forpeople to live and be in
community with each other.
And um, that's very much whenI'm still working out because
(21:20):
we're still under a lot of thesesystems, but it's it's clear
that they're failing and thatthey don't work and they take
advantage of people.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
Yeah, oh, absolutely yeah and yes, you're using like
fear and and doubt, and all thatto just control the situation
yes, you are in good scoundrelcompany here.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
Good, yeah, I'm always trying to find out
exactly what the you know,because I want to in my own, in
my own spiritual practice, Iwant to be, you know, uh,
positive and someone that peoplecome to when they need to be
boosted up.
But I know in my heart of heartsthat what I am is a tear down
of old systems, right, andthat's kind of like my role in,
(22:09):
in general, yeah, is is istilling the soil, is what I call
it all the time.
Yeah, and so a lot of it is forme, like you know, I I do still
like write angry music or musicthat, like you know, is
supposed to be help withreprogramming or, um, um, you
know, I make some angrypolitical art and stuff like
that, but more in the sense ofnot just being edgy and mean, to
(22:31):
be mean in a way of like youshould be questioning this stuff
too, kind of thing, you know,yes, so, yeah, and what, from
from where?
Where we go from here?
It will be very interestingbecause we are what the hell's
going on right now, right, yeah.
Speaker 4 (22:48):
It's like.
I mean, in some ways it seemslike a necessary process that
might be painful and difficultfor a lot of us, but, yeah,
maybe just a broader awakeningto the fact that the people who
are running this shit arescumbags who do not have your
best interest in mind and that Ihope ultimately, in en masse,
(23:12):
that people will be like uh,what if we just didn't do what
you said?
you know, like how about we'rejust gonna do our own thing over
here and like there's more ofus than there are, than than you
?
Speaker 2 (23:22):
yeah, yeah, you mentioned a couple of of
practices that I'm not familiarwith and I'd love to know more.
I wrote it down phonetically,so correct me when I say this
wrong vedanta, vedanta, vedantasure, yeah, vedanta, and like
who?
Speaker 4 (23:37):
who cares about pronunciation?
It's, it doesn't matter.
Uh, that's just a particularbranch of Hinduism that is.
Their whole thing is that istrying to get their
practitioners to wake up to anon-dual reality.
So non-dual meaning there arenot two things in the universe,
there's one thing in the wholeuniverse and we are already part
(24:01):
of it, but that realizing thatwith a capital R is the moment
of enlightenment.
And enlightenment can be atricky word, the way it's thrown
around online, because it cansound very gatekeepy and like
holier than thou.
People talk about beingenlightened, all this shit, and
it's like it's a.
(24:21):
It's a physical, biologicalchange in your system, the
moment after which you are neverthe same.
Yeah, and.
I have not experienced this, bythe way, I've only had it
described to me, but they callit a Samadhi, which is where
basically all awareness ofeverything goes away and you
(24:42):
realize what you actually areand that this universe is all
one and it's also nothing at allin this way.
That completely doesn't makesense.
But, um, yeah, it's just abranch of hinduism and I got
really into their, theirliterature, through one of my
mentors along the way and spenta lot of time meditating with
(25:05):
hindu mantras and things likethat, working on the chakras and
and all of that it's reallycool stuff, they, they
definitely the people in indiahave been.
They've had this shit locked infor like 5 000 years they've
been at it.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
Yeah, they're probably looking at us like you,
you idiots you.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
You all pronounced it wrong.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
Oh we're just now talking about chakras.
Guys, get it together, right.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
Wait that term.
What did you call it?
Samadhi?
Mm-hmm, right, can you describethat a little bit more for me,
if you can?
Speaker 4 (25:39):
It's kind of like, as I understand it it is I mean,
mean, it's the whole goal ofdeep meditation, of where the
thinking brain finally quietscompletely and your
consciousness kind of ascends tothe realm of the ether of god,
(26:00):
of um yeah, it's supposed to bepretty undeniable where kind of
the the veil of all of thisexperience goes away and you
realize that the whole time youwere just swimming in awareness
and that kind of all of thisphysical reality is just pretend
(26:22):
, um, and and then the peoplewho experience this have to kind
of adapt back to regular life,because you're just like dazed,
essentially, and like, holy shit, that's God, that's God, I'm
just surrounded by Godeverywhere, and like this is
terrifying, but pretty coolstuff.
(26:42):
The teachers in Hinduism werelittle children who reached
Samadhi at age seven and thenbecame just these little their
entire life.
Their entire karmic path wasjust to be teachers, basically.
And so, yeah, one of my mentorshad reached this point, because
(27:05):
she's an incredibly disciplinedperson who has spent, you know,
thousands of hours meditatingand, uh, helped me.
We would just spend hours onthe phone and I would be asking
her questions about all of thisand how it worked and like it is
this and it's not that and um,so yeah, she helped me a lot.
(27:25):
That's so cool.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
It's so cool how many , how many hours you've put into
this study of just trying tofigure out what the hell's going
on here.
Speaker 4 (27:36):
Yeah, it's, it's fascinating to me.
Um and I I do believe thisconcept exists in other
traditions, for sure it does.
In other traditions, for sureit does.
I mean um in in westernceremonial magic, I think it is
synonymous with knowledge andconversation of the holy
guardian angel, which is alsothis kind of, yeah, breakthrough
(27:59):
point.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
so when you, when you mention western ceremonial
magic, what do you?
What are you referring to?
Is that tied to a particularpractice or is that just like a
non-denominational version?
Speaker 4 (28:10):
oh, yeah it.
It's more or less encompassing,like the golden dawn approach
to magic, magic with a k okay,you know, banishing rituals and
calling on angels and doing thisvery you know, kind of active,
performative form of meditation.
Uh, that ultimately leads tothe same goal.
(28:32):
It's just like clearing out aperson's energetic system so
that they can wake up.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
Yeah, okay, so kind of like the I don't you.
You probably know more aboutthis.
When I hear like golden dawn, Ithink of like turn of the
century, a cultism kind of stuff.
Speaker 4 (28:49):
Okay, yeah, totally yeah, aleister Crowley's crew
and all that they did and he's.
He's a controversial person andlike not everybody loves him,
and I don't even love him thatmuch but uh, I think it's hard
to love.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
That's all.
Speaker 4 (29:21):
That's real stuff.
It's like a real spiritualtechnology and it's just one
optional tool that people canuse if they feel drawn to it.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
It's so funny how prolific Crowley is even now.
What a character.
Absolutely Recently, thepodcast Otherworld did a deep
dive on him in particular I'veseen some documentaries too.
Clearly such a person, a personthat that brought so much of
(29:51):
his own trauma into hispractices as well that like it
sounds like he never reallyfully worked out of but yet
brought so much to the thepractices at the same time.
So interesting totally yes.
Speaker 4 (30:04):
Yeah, now we have the benefit of like therapy and all
this healing language.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
My buddy just needed someone to talk to half that
time.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
It was crazy.
Speaker 4 (30:16):
It was getting dark heroin, I think the the women in
his life he treated horribly,um, but he was tapped into some
real shit and yeah, uh,ultimately that's to our benefit
to at least have the like thatliterature that's still existing
yeah, yeah okay, so that's thebetter side of some of the
(30:41):
practices and building off ofthe not so not the dark stuff.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
So what kind of in that?
Because we haven't reallytalked about that that much in
the show in in your is it?
Is it okay if I call itritualism?
I don't know, sure, okay inyour, like western ritualistic
magic, like how, what does thatlook like for you?
Speaker 4 (31:04):
Yeah, it started with kind of the.
There's all these pre-writtenrituals within this system.
A lot of times, people make uptheir own, but there's also kind
of like the core rituals thatone is supposed to do when
entering into the system,entering into this system, and
(31:29):
so I read a handful of books in2020, during lockdown, is when I
kind of went deep dive on magicspecifically.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
Listen, some of us did a tiger King.
Other people were learning,like you.
It's fine.
Speaker 4 (31:37):
Right, right, well, yeah, I had all this time alone
at home and um, so ended upreading this stuff and what that
practically looked like was,yeah, these uh rituals that you
do at an altar and you can weara robe and build your own wand
(31:57):
and do all this other stuff yourbrain but it's ultimately about
like calling in higher forms ofuh energy to help cleanse your
system and like I believe thatthese magical rituals are just a
(32:22):
different format that you couldalso just do sitting in
meditation with your breath.
But, yeah, you're calling onarchangels, which are really
interesting creatures, reallyinteresting entities, but
they're relatively easy to getin touch with.
And engaging with these formscertainly does something to
(32:49):
one's energy body and to theiraura and starts just
accelerating your karma.
For one thing, it often leadsto like some pretty wild shit
getting stirred up and somedifficult things happening, but
all for the purpose of gettingyou closer to awakening.
And so, yeah, I spent a coupleof years doing banishing rituals
every single day, which arejust like clearing the energy
(33:13):
around me and calling in higher,you know, light and love and
all this stuff, and, uh, it didhave a tangible effect.
Um, that's kind of hard todescribe.
But ultimately all that stuffled me to Hinduism, and then I
just dropped all the ritual andjust meditated.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
It's very fun when I often the more I've learned
about all this stuff hearingabout the actual formal
ritualism, the rob, the robes,the wand, all that stuff like um
, nothing I've ever particularlypracticed, but like hearing
about how it's, more than anyanything supposed to like elicit
a certain like brain, you know,brainwave from you to, so that
(34:03):
you are, I don't know, buyinginto your own shit, I guess.
So you know, like gettingyourself into a mindset of
manifestation and makingsomething special, which is why
here on the show we have atheory that everybody who's
Christian is secretly a witch,and that's what mass is You're
in it to be witchy, and I'msorry if you don't believe it,
(34:23):
but it's true.
Speaker 4 (34:26):
Catholic church.
Mass is such an occult ritual.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
It's so occult they don't even realize it.
Speaker 4 (34:33):
Yeah, totally.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
It's very fun.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
I mean, the thing behind so much of thing is just
the intention behind it.
Whether it's a prayer or aritual, or lighting a candle, or
doing a spell or meditating,it's like, absolutely I have the
(34:59):
intention of creating thisthing or manifesting this thing,
or or connecting with anarchangel.
Speaker 2 (35:08):
Totally so.
Can you sense angels?
Speaker 1 (35:11):
Yeah, I was just about to there.
Speaker 4 (35:15):
There will it's.
I would say, yes, I don't havethat ability super locked in,
but there will be times duringmeditation or sometimes in
ceremony, like, uh, takingpsilocybin mushrooms with other
people, which I've done ahandful of times, or even even
(35:35):
cannabis honestly makes thosechannels a little more clear in
my case, um, I I'm able to tellif something is present and I
can usually get a name.
Um, it's not always an angel.
Sometimes it's something elseand it's it's so vague and
(35:56):
abstract but I've come to trustit, to trust that, like, what's
coming in is is accurate, um,and and sometimes it's something
that has like picked up on yourenergy from the astral that you
have to just be like, hey, youdon't need to be here, um, and
that can be problematic for forsome people sometimes.
(36:17):
But, um, yeah, more or less,yes, I can, and the ones that
I've worked with repeatedly,specifically archangel rel and
Archangel Michael, are theirenergetic wavelength is very
clear to me.
They're, they're like verydistinct entities and they're
great dudes who have helped meout a lot.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
Raphael's the healer right.
Is that his thing?
Yeah, Okay.
Speaker 4 (36:44):
Yeah, and he's got a lot of association with Hermes,
the Greek God, herm hermes, bigfan of hermes.
Yeah, yeah, totally recentlyyeah, right, yeah, mercury
energy.
Uh, hermes is like themessenger and he is particularly
helpful for people who are kindof like just launching into
(37:04):
this journey with magic.
He's he.
Speaker 2 (37:07):
He does seem like a very benevolent, helpful entity
who's like trying to give youmore information to keep going
my favorite that I I I startedmaybe one day I'll do like a
special episode, but I'm I'mdiving into like the uh, what do
you want to call it?
Like how hermeticism was evendeveloped as a religion on my
(37:30):
own time.
This is on my own timelisteners.
And uh, it's so funny like thatat some point, the world
decided to pick out what seemslike to be an obscure, not
all-powerful deity, such ashermes, and and build an entire
religion based off of him andthe ancient Egyptian God of
Thoth, and like be like oh, thisis like the path we all should
(37:55):
be following.
It's not like you know, it'snot the big hitters, it's not
the Zeus's out there, it's it'slittle little Hermes, but for a
very good reason.
I think it's very fun.
Um, so, when you are when yousaid you picked up a few names,
is this, is this something thatyou were just like knowing, or
is it something you actuallyhear?
Speaker 4 (38:14):
Yeah, it's all just in within my head.
Yeah, and the way I've come totrust that it's real is that
it's usually so fucking randomand something that I, in in some
cases, like a name that I didnot know or recognize and had to
look up later.
(38:35):
Oh, wow.
So, yeah, that's been prettycool and that's what makes me
trust it.
And, yeah, the longer I've beendoing this, I am able to just
trust it.
But, uh, early on in magic, Iwas having very intense dreams,
like dreams the sort of which Ihave never had before.
(38:57):
There was something clearlydifferent about them and, in a
few cases, uh, deities wereshowing up, like ishtar and, uh,
krishna, and I had zero contextfor these guys.
What are you doing here?
Right, truly, and and so, andand.
(39:17):
Then it ended up that, like,those entities had a particular
kind of thing to teach me atthat point.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
Um, is that because you were delving into, like
hindu related practices?
You think they showed upbecause, like, oh, this guy's,
this guy's calling our phonenumber?
Speaker 4 (39:34):
for sure, krishna.
Yes, indeed, um, ishtar wasreally random because she's an
assyrian goddess who doesn'tknow, that is yeah, yeah, she's
kind of intense, um, definitelylike a severe, kind of like a
goddess of war, but there's alsoa very sexual sensual nature
(39:55):
about her.
That frightened me a little bitat the beginning, but now I
think it's pretty awesome yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:04):
That sounds like a Lilith-type deity.
Speaker 4 (40:06):
Right, yeah, yeah, totally In that same vein, for
sure, inanna Ishtar.
A Lilith type deity, right,yeah, yeah, totally, she's in
that same vein, for sure, inannaIshtar.
Lilith are all on a verysimilar divine mother wavelength
.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
This is fun.
I'm having a great time rightnow Wonderful.
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (40:20):
I love this stuff.
Speaker 1 (40:22):
I just wanted, I love to like, I'm always so curious
to know for people who made sucha turn away from a church or
like a religion how did how didthat shift?
Like your family dynamic oryour friends dynamic?
Speaker 4 (40:42):
totally, yeah, massive change, I would say.
Even with all the stuff I puton the internet, my parents are
still relatively unaware of whatI do, and I don't yeah, I don't
mind keeping it that way.
They're both still, yeah,devoted Christians.
I think it would make theirhair stand on end some of the
(41:06):
things that I've done, butthat's cool.
And, yeah, I would say myentire friend group changed,
yeah, because, yeah, I wasliving in Denver in 2020, which
was when my wife at the time andI moved here, and all of those
people are Christians and Istill love them and respect them
(41:29):
and appreciate them.
But, what I'm doing now.
They're just like they can'teven understand what's happening
.
They yeah they probably thinkI've gone crazy or am just
deeply lost in my sin, and so myfriend group now is pretty
small, and I don't mind that.
(41:50):
I just need a few core, closepeople who are also thinking
about these things and workingon themselves and that I can get
as weird as I want to and theystill understand.
Speaker 2 (42:00):
Yeah, that's great.
You said earlier in theinterview that you have come
back around to having anappreciation for the evangelical
practice in a certain way.
Speaker 4 (42:15):
Can you speak to that a little bit?
Yeah, I do think there is acertain validity to the Bible.
You know there's some prettymagical stuff in there, and I
think where people are mistakenis taking it as a literal
historical document.
But if you view it as moremagical or whatever term you
(42:38):
want to use if you take thoselessons and those words of
Christ or the other OldTestament stories, you can glean
some cool shit from it.
And even Father God of the OldTestament as an archetype is
pretty interesting.
And so, yeah, I guess the mostinteresting thing to me is
(42:59):
Christ as an archetype, Christas a human representation of
Christ consciousness, which Ithink has appeared in forms like
Krishna and like the Buddha,that they were channeling
basically the same thing andthat Jesus was trying to tell
people the kingdom of heaven iswithin you.
(43:21):
Like that's the end of sentence.
That's the summary of the wholeBible and they were like oh,
the Bible right there.
Speaker 2 (43:28):
Yeah Right, the Bible distilled by Josh right there.
One sentence, Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (43:33):
To quote that too, yeah.
Speaker 4 (43:35):
Yeah, he does yeah.
Right.
So I guess, yeah, it's like Ican I can appreciate it.
I can pick up the book ofPsalms and and of Psalms and get
something kind of cool out ofit, and some of it I don't know
why it's in there Some of it'spretty boring, or maybe embedded
with some sort of written incode that I don't understand.
(43:56):
But yeah, and part of what Iwant to encourage people with
who are like what I do with inmy therapy work or in my
spiritual coaching, whichessentially is people who are
exiting Christianity and arekind of spiraling with not
knowing what to believe, ofencouraging them that, like, if
(44:17):
you felt like you connected withsomething spiritual or that was
God, that's still real, you canstill reintegrate that into
your experience.
It's just that the lens youwere seeing it through was maybe
incorrect.
Speaker 1 (44:29):
Yeah, that's great.
I'm sure that's that's gotta bereally helpful too.
Speaker 2 (44:33):
It's so helpful.
I mean if, like you're saying,like you, you the one thing, if
you're going to grow upevangelical or Christian or
Catholic at all, the one thingyou can walk away with is that
Jesus is pretty cool as a dudeand let's work with that.
Everything else around it wasis structure built by not him
and, like you can shed it veryeasily and just move forward
(44:56):
with the practices and then, youknow, get into.
Every single traditionalreligion has a that like secret
mysticism undercurrent that ifyou, if you can catch a ride on
that you're, you're going allthe way to the top.
I always say I've never saidthat in my life, but I'm saying
that's great that's a great wayto put it.
Speaker 1 (45:16):
Yeah, that's so true, right was there like or is
there a practice that um hashelped you more with like kind
of healing trauma from you know,childhood or whenever?
Speaker 4 (45:34):
I think most of that has come through conventional
therapy.
Yeah, you know talk therapy andEMDR and internal family
systems, which I've been doingsome new rounds of therapy
really recently around that offinding, you know, these little
characters within me,essentially like these little
(45:56):
personalities that I've createdover the years that are
performing a function within mypsyche that they, like the
critical voice thinks it's beinghelpful, it's trying to be,
it's trying to motivate me tokeep moving in life and and it
thinks it's being helpful.
But like doing internal familysystems work, talking to that
(46:16):
little guy and being like youknow what was the age that you
were hurt, what is the storyaround why you're being this way
?
yeah and then and then learningto integrate that.
So I feel like the spiritualwork has I mean, if anything,
meditating has just just calmingmy body and nervous system
(46:39):
through breath work has beenreally effective in just
generally having a calmer systemin order to operate better in
the world.
But yeah, the healing hasmostly been in therapy.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:53):
That like catching the little voices.
How'd you put that?
Speaker 4 (47:02):
Yeah, just seeing what they have to say and why
they're operating how they are,but it is very much like
characters inside us.
Speaker 2 (47:08):
Yeah, that's such a practice of self-awareness.
That's so cool.
Speaker 1 (47:12):
That takes a lot of work to do yeah yeah, it's
powerful stuff, for sure haveyou um like done any any, have
you or have you learned any likehealing modalities, like like
re Reiki or any energy healingLike?
Since you've been on I mean,you've been on such a like
learning quest?
Speaker 4 (47:33):
Sure, I would say to.
To a certain degree I thinkthat is a gift that might be
within me, that that I haven'tfully awakened or like fully
tuned it in.
But um, I've been told itsounds funny to say it this way
(47:54):
but that I have healing hands.
This has been mostly from youknow, former partners and stuff,
but like kind of just havingthem lay flat and like getting
into kind of a meditative statemyself and trying to channel
golden, healing, beautiful lightand just like moving it through
(48:15):
their system and stuff has beeneffective, especially during
psilocybin ceremony.
That that gets really like thevolume on that gets cranked up
in a cool way.
Yeah.
And so I I do think it's there.
It's not something I'veexperimented with that much Um,
(48:35):
but also using that method formyself within, like trying to,
you know, literally view thelittle cells of my body and all
my organs and stuff, trying tomake them glow, golden and be
like we're the happiest, mosthealthy cells in the whole world
.
And like that meditating onthings like that, even for short
periods, can have an effect ofjust like damn.
(48:56):
I do feel good, you know.
Speaker 2 (48:58):
Yeah, I feel like you will.
Reiki isn't I mean, I didn't goto any classes like Lauren did,
lauren's did lauren's a reikimaster, but um, she has attuned
me to like the lower levels ofreiki practitionership you're
due for master I am but I feellike you'll like it.
It's very, it's chill.
Speaker 1 (49:16):
It's nowhere near as in-depth as some of the the
ritualistic stuff that you havestudied, but like it's very cool
it's why I asked, because Ijust kind of got a feeling that,
like with you have like so muchin your, in your toolbox, so I
feel like you'd be like apowerhouse to just have that
energy healing.
I mean, you already said it'sin you.
Speaker 2 (49:38):
It's also very easy to integrate into anything
you're working with already.
Yeah, it could be a fun thingfor you.
Speaker 4 (49:44):
Nice yeah, I love it could be a fun thing for you,
nice.
Yeah, I love it.
Just on the flip side of that,while I'm thinking about it, I
absolutely believe that there'sa strong degree of people
developing illnesses or diseasesbased upon their stress or
trauma, that it just gets lockedin those points of the body,
(50:04):
and so I want to be careful that, not telling people they can
heal themselves and they don'tneed a doctor, but the more that
you can put your system at easeand work with these tools in
addition to medical help, that,yeah, I do think things like
cancer and organ disease developbecause of stress and trauma
(50:27):
disease develop because ofstress and trauma.
Speaker 1 (50:28):
Yeah, I mean when you think of like everything being
energy and then having liketrauma that you just like kind
of stick somewhere because youcan't face it or deal with it or
want to heal it, like it'sgoing to just kind of keep
festering or moving around inyour body somehow.
Speaker 2 (50:45):
I mean, yeah, I mean I'm very, I love science, I love
medicine, but also, but also,the like you know, you can't.
I've seen some things floatingon the internet lately about how
the body reacts.
Like a battery, right, and Italk to my daughter all the time
about how you encounter thingsout in the world and you're
(51:06):
going to have an emotion aboutit, and that's okay and you're
supposed to let it flow throughyou, like, like energy flows
through a battery, right.
But the second you try to catchit and hold onto it and then
justify its existence is whenyou that festering starts, right
, yeah, and that sucks and likethat.
That has made me ill in thepast, you know or acting like it
(51:26):
doesn't exist, like the samething.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (51:30):
Yeah, I mean, there's either like holding on to it
and like not letting go ofsomething from the past and
making it like part of yourstory, or completely ignoring it
, and I think that, like,ignorance is bliss kind of thing
, but it's bliss, it's yeahbliss kind of thing, but it's,
(51:50):
yeah, bliss, it's.
Speaker 2 (51:50):
Yeah, I mean, you have, you have a bunch of,
you'll always have.
The world of science identifiesa problem and then they move
forward from there and thenthey'll theoretically determine,
like, what started it, but it'salways like we don't know.
You know, there are peoplewho've smoked for 50 years and
never got cancer.
There are people who smoke 10minutes and got cancer and then
they'll must be, must be thecigarettes, like no one really
knows.
I do think that a lot ofdiseases probably come about
(52:11):
from some kind of trauma, somekind of emotional trauma.
But who the fuck are we?
Is there what of?
Of the practices that you'vestudied and learned about?
What has been the hands downthe most influential on you and
your spiritual development?
Speaker 4 (52:27):
Yeah, I think I would have to say magic, just because
it created a change that wasundeniable, um, and kind of
opened me up and set me up forthe next stages.
Um, it was so.
(52:48):
I mean, the video that I'mmaking right now, a long form
YouTube video, is just calledhow to open your third eye,
because, yeah, that's more thanjust a spiritual metaphor.
It's a real physical,biological change that you will
feel and experience.
And it's not something I deeplyunderstand, but I'm just taking
(53:10):
people through the steps of howthat happened.
Understand, but I'm just takingpeople through the steps of how
that happened.
And magic was absolutely thestart of that where, after a few
months of doing banishingrituals every single day, I
started to feel a pressure inthe center of my head, like a
finger pushing there, and a kindof like static electricity
(53:31):
sound phenomena around my headthat only got louder and louder.
Um, and there are the hindutexts talk about this phenomena
that, as the pineal glanddecalcifies, that you become
sensitized to new layers ofenergy, that you were kind of
like blocked from before.
(53:51):
And that's the, that's thepiece of me that has made it um,
things like being able torecognize angels or or get those
little downloads much moreclear and um it's.
It was just at the time thiswas happening.
I was like what the fuck yeahthis is so crazy, like it's like
(54:12):
it just bloomed the wholeuniverse open, because I was
like, if this is real, and I'mfeeling it and and like
experiencing these incrediblechanges, I'm like this is
awesome.
Life is a video game.
Like what, what else ispossible?
Um, and I, and that's stillunfolding.
Speaker 1 (54:29):
I still feel like I'm learning stuff all the time,
but yeah, how do you, how do youfeel like that has, I don't
know like, enhanced your likeintuition, like on a day-to-day
basis?
Speaker 4 (54:43):
I think it's just made me way more aware of subtle
energy yeah and uh, whether,whether, like encountering a
person and just being like wow,wow, their energy is bad I need
to avoid them.
Or someone is.
I'm doing a tarot card readingfor someone or talking with a
friend and just getting a senseof like something subtle or
(55:05):
spiritual or like a theme intheir life that would be helpful
for them to hear right now.
Things like that.
Speaker 2 (55:13):
That's kind of an abstract way to put it, but just
being more tapped into stufflike that, we talk about how
true spirituality is really thegame of subtleties and becoming
more aware of them until theyare not so subtle anymore.
We talk about that a lot overhere.
You're making me realize thatthere are two ways to play the
(55:34):
game of spirituality, and thetop one is, or the most
traditional one is, just tolisten to what everyone else is
telling you and like turn, stay,turned off and allow them to
keep being the your masters in away through religion, or to
tune into those subtletiesyourself and like really explore
your own way and and build yourown, build your own practice.
Speaker 4 (55:52):
That's what this is right totally yeah, we're so
smart, it's great stuff no,that's got to help with like I
mean, you're like coaching ohyeah practice too.
Speaker 1 (56:07):
Like, oh, the more tapped in you are, the more
you're able to, like you kind ofhave a, a direct conversation.
Sure, you don't even like,realize necessary.
I mean, you realize it, butlike I don't know Whenever Frank
and I have conversations whereone of us needs to like, know
something, there's like a,there's like a tapped in moment
(56:29):
where, yeah, you know whenyou're in it.
Yeah, opt-in moment where, yeah, you know when you're in it,
yeah, you know when you're inthe zone like he'll be, like
you're oh whoa.
Speaker 4 (56:44):
You feel this way, like I can sense that in my body
and I'm like, yes, right, right, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (56:46):
but like you know, if you're, if you're not paying
attention, it's just like whyare you being so, so sad, right?
Or?
Speaker 2 (56:52):
why are you, why are you pretending to not be so sad?
Speaker 1 (56:56):
or that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, this is formy own clarification.
Speaker 2 (57:00):
When you talk about magic like Wait, how, when you
talk about magic, how do youspell it?
Speaker 1 (57:07):
He said with a K.
Speaker 2 (57:08):
Oh, yeah, yeah, With a K at the end.
Oh, I missed that part.
A CK, a CK right.
Yeah, CK is cool.
Speaker 1 (57:19):
Also, maybe I could just Google this, but how is
that equal to witchcraft, Like?
Is that the same?
Are they one in the same ordifferent?
Speaker 4 (57:35):
I would say there's, I'm sure practicing witches
would have, you know, widelyvarying definitions of this, but
yeah I, I believe, yeah,western ceremonial magic in the
golden dawn tradition is aboutawakening and becoming in touch
with one's true will and theirholy guardian angel.
(57:55):
Witchcraft can often be alittle more grounded and a lot
more about trying to justinfluence your own reality, like
manifest money or trying to geta partner or make changes in
your life, and that stuff isreal, it's all valid, uh.
But I think a lot of thepaganism is doesn't have that
(58:17):
kind of higher view of like I'mhere to awaken and I'm using
this tool to get there.
Okay, okay, yeah, that'shelpful.
Speaker 2 (58:26):
I think they're all tapping into the same source
from different angles, right,you know what I mean.
Like you, you come at it justlike that's.
That's the name of the game.
Everyone's coming at this froma different angle or a different
cultural inspiration, andwitchcraft definitely is like
the practice of, of manifesting.
Speaker 4 (58:41):
That's what like spell crafting is right that the
aspect of connecting withnature is really cool about
paganism of just honoring, uh,the, the earth, the soil, the,
the rocks and, you know, treesand all of that, cause there's
some, there's some power theretoo, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (58:59):
Yeah, we just recently interviewed a psychic
medium, dee Dee Hawk, and shehears, she, talks, she, she
talks to trees like hears treespirits.
Speaker 2 (59:11):
Like has a two way conversation with trees, which
is like, oh my god, that's socool they were like.
Speaker 1 (59:15):
One of them was like gossiping to her, like do you
know what they're doing at thishouse?
Speaker 2 (59:19):
yeah, they're big enough to look inside your
window.
That's why it's so cool yeah inall of your experiences and all
your, your, your learnings.
Is there anything that is stilllike?
That still seems batshit crazyto you, or you just haven't
gotten to yet.
Speaker 4 (59:39):
This.
This is hard to describe, butI've I have met people in the
last four or five years whereI've I've realized that the
power that is available to beachieved watching people change
physical reality right in frontof me, I've realized that the
power that is available to beachieved watching people change
(01:00:01):
physical reality right in frontof me in a way that that does
kind of break one's brain alittle bit of like Holy shit,
Wait, say more yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:00:06):
Cause I've heard of this kind of stuff and I have
not come across it yet, but I, I, it's always.
I heard about it.
I never see it.
It's not like on the internet.
Speaker 4 (01:00:16):
This is.
It's a tricky one, because theperson that I encountered, who
taught me a lot, um, and wasdefinitely tapped into some wild
stuff, was also a very chaoticfigure who did not have control
of their own energy, and so whatthey manifested in their world
around them was problematic.
(01:00:38):
Uh, they were not balanced andgrounded, and I think they had
some dark portals open that theycouldn't close.
Speaker 1 (01:00:45):
I know that's all really abstract but I want the,
I want the juice.
Give me the tea.
Speaker 4 (01:00:51):
Yeah, I things.
Things like this is not exactlychanging reality in front of me
, but she would say things likeyou know, man, I really wish I
had some mushrooms.
And then a stranger would walkup to us within five minutes and
be like, hey, you guys need anymushrooms?
Like just instantaneous thingslike that.
And the biggest change I saw infront of me was that this is
(01:01:19):
really weird, but I'm just goingto describe it.
We were working out of this oldoffice building in Portland.
There's like these, you know,from the 1800s.
These big brick used to be likea John Deere factory or
something where there are nowstudio spaces and offices.
At the time we were working outof this space, the outside of
(01:01:39):
the building was completelyclean and well kept and during
one of her chaotic episodes inwhich she like fled the building
and never returned to it thenext day, that building was
covered in graffiti and likedecrepit and like coming apart.
Like in overnight it changedand even as kind of like a weird
(01:02:00):
symbol of her energy leavingthat place.
And then it was like what?
Speaker 1 (01:02:07):
What yeah?
Speaker 4 (01:02:08):
Yeah, and this person stayed in my home and like some
weird shit happened aroundthere where I felt like it was
literally haunted for a minuteoh wow, they were leaving behind
an imprint or like an energeticright yeah, I wonder if it's
because of their demeanor thatthey're able to like, manifest
weird shit, right?
Speaker 2 (01:02:28):
yeah, like that, that intense, that intense, those
intense emotions, plus thatintense focus in any one
direction that feels chaotic isif it is, if she's just a
manifestation machine, right?
Speaker 1 (01:02:42):
What is with the old building that's so weird?
Speaker 4 (01:02:45):
Right, right, yeah, do you think?
I mean her path to getting tothat point was honestly through
too much drugs, to where I meanit's like it's so tricky because
she was definitely awakened tosome divinity but she didn't
(01:03:10):
have control over it?
Yeah, but she didn't havecontrol over it.
And that's crucial that peoplemaintain, you know, a balanced,
grounded life while openingthemselves up to these things.
Speaker 2 (01:03:23):
Yeah, staying grounded, staying grounded.
Do that.
First Get grounded and thenbuild your belief system.
Yeah, that's scary, that's sointeresting, but also like
frightening to be around thatkind of person for too long.
Speaker 1 (01:03:36):
Sure, yeah, I'd imagine it's like what's next?
That's so intense.
Speaker 4 (01:03:55):
Tell us more about your services and what you offer
came about in a kind ofunexpected way.
From making TikTok videos aboutthings that I'm passionate about
and just thinking out loudabout these ideas, people
started messaging me and justbeing like, oh my God, I've
never resonated so much withsomeone.
Can I please have a call withyou?
And so, yeah, most of the timein the early days it was much
more metaphysical and peoplejust wanted to recount their
(01:04:17):
stories to me, because Iunderstood and because I was a
good listener and kind of helpedcalm them down a little bit or
just affirm that what they'reexperiencing was real and like
maybe some suggestions of whatto do next or what's happening
and what stage they're at intheir path.
And uh, and then through thatit became I mean, it was in
(01:04:42):
meditation that I had the ideafor the deprogramming
Christianity workshop, because II do have a passion for those
people in particular who aregoing through what I went
through of, yeah, just feelingso lost and so confused and not
knowing what to do next.
(01:05:03):
And so that course, yes, it isabout Christianity, but it's
kind of like this subliminal, alittle nudge into metaphysical,
you know, esoteric practices.
And it's like some peoplethat'll go right past their head
.
Others it's going to like clickwith them and then they're
going to follow some path there.
Speaker 2 (01:05:27):
But yeah absolutely Right.
Speaker 4 (01:05:30):
So, yeah, my passion with my work with clients is to
help those people who are inthis still really early days of
realizing they don't believeanymore in Christianity or
Catholicism or Mormonism, andjust being like, what do I do
next?
And oftentimes it's just a lotof listening, which I love, I
(01:05:52):
love.
And then the people are lonelyand they feel misunderstood and
they just want to be heard, andI absolutely love offering that.
Speaker 2 (01:06:01):
It's really in in each of those religions.
There are like certain spacesthat you can find yourself in
where you don't feel like it's asafe place to even ask a
question.
So you providing that alone islike so cool man, yeah totally
yeah and just being able to.
Speaker 4 (01:06:19):
there's a lot of work around the judgment stuff and
around shame and aroundsexuality and, um, I, I can
often I don't know pick up onthose subtleties, even in the
way that a person is describingtheir own story or speaking, the
way they speak about themselvesand how there is maybe this
negative, cynical tinge to it,and just be like dude.
(01:06:40):
You know, it's okay to believein yourself and the reason
you're you're so hard onyourself was because of bullshit
reasons Like that was nevertrue.
Speaker 1 (01:06:49):
That's so cool, that's so great.
Speaker 2 (01:06:51):
All right.
Well, on that great bridge,what a great bridge.
Speaker 4 (01:06:53):
On that note, let's tell everybody where to find you
yeah, well, I would highlyrecommend my deprogramming
christianity workshop, which isjust on youtube and my website
is doctor hyphen gainscom.
Doctor spelled out uh, yeah,and I sent you a link for the
show notes.
But yeah, if folks haveresonated with what I've said
here, I would love to meet youand talk with you and develop a
(01:07:16):
relationship in which I amhelping you know, spur you
forward and like find somedirection and find a lot of
encouragement.
I love to empower my clientsand like really, you know, jazz
them up.
Speaker 1 (01:07:29):
It really sounds like we we have we've heard from
listeners who have are like,either starting to come out of
their religion or, like recentlydid, or you know.
So I feel like this willresonate for sure.
Speaker 2 (01:07:43):
No, that's fantastic.
If you had one piece of adviceto give to people who are
currently trying to break out oftheir of their traditional
religious mold.
What would you say?
Currently trying to break outof their of their?
Speaker 4 (01:07:54):
traditional religious mold.
What would you say?
I think, forgive yourself andtrust yourself.
Um, because if there's anyjudgment or shame that is
lingering from those ideas,those ways of thinking, uh, that
(01:08:14):
there is nothing judging youexcept yourself, and the more
that you can trust your owninner voice and what feels
exciting and true and what youfeel drawn to, that you have
full permission to heretical ordangerous or like satanic, but
(01:08:34):
that, whatever feels true, thatstill quiet voice that you're
most excited about, even if itdoesn't relate to spiritual
things like that, is what youare supposed to move towards.
So, trust yourself.
Speaker 1 (01:08:46):
That's so nice.
Love it, that's so great.
Speaker 2 (01:08:49):
Perfect.
Yeah, that's awesome, josh.
Thank you so much for chattingwith us today.
That was like.
Speaker 4 (01:08:56):
Thank you guys yeah I was fucking blessed.
I love this show, yeah thankyou for listening.
Speaker 2 (01:09:06):
visit clairevoyagingcom for
merchandise or to access freeresources to help you on your
spiritual journey.
Subscribe to our Patreon formore content or join for free to
chat with us.
Clairvoyaging is a fiscallysponsored project of Fractured
Atlas, a 501c3 charity.
Make a tax-deductible donationto support our mission to foster
understanding, respect andcuriosity for diverse spiritual
(01:09:29):
belief systems.
Clairvoyaging is a productionof Wayfeather Media.
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