087: Astrophysics Meets the Mystical // with Rosa Hope

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If you’ve ever felt forced to choose between a telescope and a tarot deck, this conversation will make you breathe easier. We chatted with Rosa Hope—a practicing PhD astrophysicist and transpersonal hypnotist—to trace the surprising places where hard science and deep spirit not only coexist, but actually help each other do their best work. Rosa unpacks materialism in plain language, shows how quantum-scale weirdness challenges “solid” reality, and explains why science answers "how" while spirituality answers "why."

Rosa shares the raw story of losing a roommate, developing severe PTSD, and finding unexpected relief in a single 90-minute hypnosis session that unraveled a core pattern of guilt. 

She offers a pragmatic bridge for skeptics: you don’t have to believe in angels or past lives; treat it as a guided imaginative exercise and judge by results—less pain, more agency, better relationships. Rosa also challenges default cultural lenses, naming the limits of Jungian dream symbols and uplifting learning within living traditions. The through line is generous and clear: meet people where they are, let practice lead belief, and use these tools in service of healing.

If you’re curious about hypnosis, integration, and the space between the measurable and the meaningful, this is your map. 

To learn more or to work with Rosa:

Visit: www.rosa-hope.com

Clairvoyaging is now a fiscally sponsored project of Fractured Atlas, a 501(c)(3) charity, so any donations are now tax deductible. If you’d like to support our projects that aim to foster understanding for diverse spiritual belief systems, visit www.clairvoyaging.com/support. 

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Episode Transcript

Lauren (00:01):
Hello, fresh-faced beauties! In today's episode, we
chatted with Rosa Hope, anastrophysicist and transpersonal
hypnotist.
We talked about the healingwork of hypnosis, integration,
and past life regression.
I'm Lauren Leon.

Frank (00:15):
And I'm the king of the world!

Lauren (00:17):
We are a married couple learning how to develop our own
intuition.
This is episode 87 of ClaireVoyaging.
Wayfeather Media presentsClaire Voyaging.
Welcome back, friends.

(00:50):
This is it.

Frank (00:51):
This is the moment you've been waiting for.

Lauren (00:53):
This is the one.

Frank (00:54):
This is it.

Lauren (00:55):
Everything in your life has been leading up to this
moment right now.

Frank (01:00):
Welcome to the present.

Lauren (01:01):
Are you ready?
And now, and now and now.
Every moment is the presentmoment.
Welcome to it.
What if this was the entireepisode?

Frank (01:14):
Oh no.

Lauren (01:14):
I just keep reminding you that you were in the present
moment.
Would you listen?
I'm fine.
How are you?

Frank (01:23):
They were better before that.

Lauren (01:25):
They don't like my hypotheticals.
Let me know in the comments.

Frank (01:29):
Please don't.

Lauren (01:31):
I just keep begging for comments.
That's that's my bit.
And also hate me?
I'll take it.
Come at me in the comments.

Frank (01:41):
I'm starving for human attention.

Lauren (01:44):
No, don't send me bad comments.
I'll cry.
Yeah.
You guys, we have a greatepisode today.
We talked to Rosa, and she is adelight.
She is she's just she's one ofthose like really smart people.

Frank (01:57):
Guys, former punk gun astrophysicist, gun, uh like
hypnotherapist.

Lauren (02:04):
Yeah.
I mean the hell.
Yeah.

Frank (02:06):
I was like, we got to like dabble in like quantum
stuff, and like she has likemusic.

Lauren (02:13):
Yeah.
And a musical theaterbackground.
I was like, well, okay.

Frank (02:16):
Like move in with us, please.

Lauren (02:19):
I mean, yeah, what a what a conversation.
So I don't want to keep holdingyou up by making me beg for
comments.
So here we go.
Let's talk to Rosa.

Frank (02:31):
Here we go, Rosa.

Lauren (02:32):
To the stars, astrophysicists.

Frank (02:35):
Oh yeah.

Lauren (02:39):
Hi, Rosa.
Thank you so much for joiningus today.
We're excited to hear aboutyour story.
So can you tell us a little bitwhat got you into the work that
you're doing now?

Rosa (02:52):
Sure.
Uh so I think what makes meunique is the fact that I am a
PhD astrophysicist, stillpracticing, still doing
research, uh, though I'm also atranspersonal hypnotist and an
integration coach as well.
Um and I think people find itvery strange because it's not
particularly common for a hardscientist to be so like fully

(03:17):
woo as I am, I suppose.
Um that's kind of where wherethe interesting stuff comes
together.
I think what's different aboutme also is that many people in
my position sort of come from amore traditional background or a
corporate background, and thensomething major happens in their

(03:38):
life and they have a hugewake-up call or a spiritual
awakening, and then their mindgets cracked open, they discover
all the spiritual stuff andtheir life changes.
That's actually fairly typical,but that's not what happened to
me.
I've been strange since I wasborn.
Oh so yeah.
So yeah, I know.
When I was a little kid, um, Iwas already interested in the

(04:02):
paranormal or the supernatural.
So uh I was the type of kidwho, you know, during elementary
school, I'd wander off bymyself during recess and like
sit in a circle of trees andlike hug them and talk to them
and like wonder if I'd see afairy.
And I was checking uh books outat the library on like ESP and

(04:23):
ghosts and that sort of thing.
Now, I hadn't had any spookyexperiences myself, but I did
have this like insatiablecuriosity about it.
Um and interestingly, I wouldargue that's how I ended up
becoming a physicist too,because they're also insatiably
curious.
Yeah.
Uh they are a type, they'repeople that really want to know

(04:46):
what is all this?
Like, what is reality?
What is it made of?
How does it function?
Um, so in a sense, the thingsthat got me into the more
esoteric or metaphysical uhtopics and practices are the
exact same thing that got meinto science.
They're the same.
And so it's been this kind ofhand-in-hand journey, more or

(05:09):
less the whole way, though it'slike I've kind of had these
detours off to one side or theother at different stages of my
life.
But a story I like to tellpeople just to kind of warm
things up is that uh usuallyscientists are are really on the
material, the materialist side.
They're really skeptical, theydon't really like the woo, it's

(05:30):
not comfortable for them.
Uh but I think this conceptthat science uh is by its very
nature based on a materialistparadigm is a modern idea.
That's new.
If you go back to Isaac Newton,who is the father of you know

(05:53):
mechanics, the father ofclassical physics uh and
calculus, he was both ascientist and a mathematician
and an alchemist.
He was an active practitionerand researcher in alchemy.
He was a magician.
And uh but you know, uh laterduring the during the

(06:14):
Enlightenment and everythingelse, um this rift occurred
where uh there this kind ofcultural belief appeared that
science was capable ofexplaining everything.
It was capable of explainingall phenomena.
So like even if we didn't havean answer yet, science would
lead to it.
That's actually philosophical.

(06:34):
We don't know if that's true ornot.
In fact, I would argue that isnot, though that's kind of a
rabbit hole of its own.
Uh, but it's like I just wantto remind everyone that the
goals of science and the goalsof mysticism are fundamentally
the same, which is trying tounderstand what we are and what
all this is and why we're here.
So, I mean, maybe that's moreblanket than like my personal

(06:56):
story.
Uh, but for me, it's beengrowing up just deeply curious.
And that curiosity was notlimited by a materialist
paradigm.
I'm ready to hear from everyoneabout what they think is going
on, whether it's kind of dataand evidence based or whether
it's experiential.

Lauren (07:13):
That's so interesting to think about like people were
expecting science to have allthe answers because when you
look at it now, it there is sucha like a divide almost where
someone's like, well, no, I'mvery science-based.
I don't believe in, you know,like spiritual stuff that you

(07:34):
can't explain.
But it's almost like everyone'sjust been waiting for the
explanation or like the theresearch behind mysticism.

Frank (07:45):
Yeah, well, you know, everyone always says that like
uh what is it?
There's no differentiationbetween like a modern like
scientific mystery and m magic.
And it's it's right.
And like you're clearly inthat, you're living in that
in-between where you're you'redabbling in both more than
dabbling.
Uh you don't dabble and end upwith a PhD.

Rosa (08:08):
But so true.
Oh man.

Frank (08:12):
Just real quick, no, you're for our listeners.
Could you define materialism inin the context that you're
using it?

Rosa (08:18):
Yeah, yeah.
So it's it's funny.
I think people I'm so big onsemantics, it's probably gonna
drive some people crazy.
But the reason I I care so muchabout it isn't because my
definitions are the right ones,but because we should know what
our definitions are so we'reactually communicating
effectively.
Okay.
When people are talking aboutbeing uh being scientific or

(08:39):
something like that, they alsoconfuse this with like atheism
and stuff like that.
The the terms get confused.

Frank (08:45):
Yeah.

Rosa (08:45):
What materialism actually is, is believing that uh
essentially what is physical orwhat can be interacted with on a
physical level is the onlything that is by definition
reality.
So reality has to be physical,like uh like a wall or a chair,

(09:07):
um, etc.
So a materialist paradigm isone that says there is no unseen
world.
There is no spirit world, thereis no God.
Um, all of these kind of unseenor unfings that aren't
manifested physically are notreal.
So it kind of rejects the worldof spirit and the world of idea

(09:28):
as mental constructs.
So people who have amaterialist paradigm also
believe that consciousnessarises from brain function and
biochemistry.
So it makes the body amiraculous machine, and some oh,
can't say miraculous with thosepeople, an incredible machine,
a a you know, a a squishywater-based machine.
But uh, but that what weexperience and anything strange

(09:52):
we might experience is is alsosomething that is generated by
the brain.
So if you experience, forexample, a synchronicity or
something like that, it's notthat anything special has
occurred in the material world,it's that your brain is doing
its well, humans are very goodat pattern recognition.
But it's saying your brain'sjust doing some hardcore pattern

(10:13):
recognition, that's all it is,there's no meaning, etc., etc.
So, so the hardcorematerialists are really in the
do y'all know who RichardDawkins is?
No.
No.
Big, big famous uh author whois like atheist, hardcore
atheist, hardcore materialist,but has a a good size audience,

(10:35):
and he loves to be like the theworst kind of skeptic, in my
opinion, which is that hedoesn't just tear apart the
idea, he likes to tear apart theperson with the idea.
Um I love it, right?
I love it.
Milk of human kindness.
But uh, but yeah, but that'shis way, and that's how he he

(11:00):
wants to be right more thananything else.

Lauren (11:03):
Desperately.

Rosa (11:04):
And what's nice about having a belief in only the
physical world is that he canprove himself right over and
over with like physicalexperiments and stuff like that.
So if something can bedetected, it's real.
If something can't be detected,it's not real.
Easy peasy.
Easy peasy.
Does it kind of make life smalland meaningless?
Oh yeah.

(11:25):
Yeah, and so boring.
But that's yeah, and also likedire, but that's the materialist
paradigm.
Um, I did dabble with that whenI was like in high school and I
was really angry and depressedand um listening to like punk
rock bands that were about likedown with the man and stuff like
that.
So like I I have dabbled inthat area.

(11:46):
Sure.
Uh thankfully didn't get a PhDin it though, you know.
Um but uh but it is kind of adark place, and a lot of people
end up landing there, especiallyvery, very smart people who
really overthink things.
People of an existentialistbent sometimes do land there and
stay there because they kind ofdiscover there that life has no

(12:08):
meaning, and then they kind oflose steam, and that's a wrap.
So that didn't happen to me.
Um, when I was in high schooland I was all pissed off and
drunk all the time, I, you know,I found that place, I found
that meaningless place, but thenI had an epiphany because I had
made up my mind that if lifehad no meaning or whatever, then

(12:30):
I should do whatever the hell Iwanted.
And I discovered that if I, ofcourse, I'm this is coming from
a place of privilege too, that Ithat I was able to do this, but
I I decided I was gonna moveoverseas.
I decided I was gonna go on anadventure.
Because at the rate I wasgoing, I was like, I'll probably
be dead by 25.

(12:51):
I want to like see the world.
I want to like go have a goodtime.
Let's let's like rock star thehell out of this, okay?
YOLO or whatever.
And but I upon doing so, uponlike making the choice, um, I
found that once I put my mind toit and started looking into
like, okay, I want to move toEurope.

(13:12):
What do I have to do?
What's the visa situation?
How can I make this happen?
And within less than a year, Ihad done it.
I had figured out how to do it.
I was legit on a visa, youknow, I could get a job and
everything.
And I had like, I had moved toEurope and I was like, look at
what I can do.
Like, look at what you can dowhen you just like make the

(13:32):
decision, when you really arelike, this is what I'm doing,
this is what I'm doing.
Um almost all the time, you canfigure it out, you know, and uh
and that is the magic that kindof broke me out of my funk.
But in a life with no meaning,you have the power to choose
what the meaning of your lifewill be.

(13:54):
Right.
And that makes you powerful.
So, in a sense, it's like thatthat got me back out of that pit
and like sent me on this otherdirection.
Because if we get to decidewhat the meaning of our life is,
or we get to decide what we'regonna do with it, all of a
sudden the world becomes yourplayground.

(14:15):
You know, and and then itwasn't so depressing.
Instead, it was like, well,what's the adventure I'd like to
have?
And that kind of opened thingsback up and allowed me to kind
of continue on this journey.

Lauren (14:26):
Oh, that's really fun.
I like that.
I like that framing.
That's that's great.

Rosa (14:32):
You know, the stuff that's for the skeptics.
That's for the skeptics.
I have a totally different takenow, by the way.
I'm woo now, okay?
I'm woo.

Frank (14:42):
Something it's funny.
So you hit your you kind of hityour rock bottom and found
freedom in it.

Rosa (14:46):
And yeah, that's right.

Frank (14:48):
It's so funny because I've said this multiple times.
I used to tell people that,like, you know, especially when
they're feeling really down ontheir circumstances, I'd be
like, well, you found thatnothing matters.
And when nothing matters,everything matters the same.
So everything matters.
And like you can do whateveryou want.
Yeah.
You've you've it's a compressionof the highs and the lows.

(15:10):
Like, and then you get tothat's right, you find some
freedom in it.

Rosa (15:13):
Well, I understood you.
I know you make sense to me.
Check it out, check out 100%.

Frank (15:20):
The okay, so we're we're a drunk punk in Europe.
And yeah.
How do we go then toastrophysicist?

Rosa (15:35):
Yeah.
Okay, yeah.
All right.
Look, this is such a long andconvoluted story that sometimes
when I like make a new friend asan adult and they really want
to know this, I tell them thewhole story and it takes like 20
minutes, and then they're like,You're lying.
So, like this is so here we go,I guess.
Yes.
Um, so um after Europe, I movedto Asia for a little while.

(16:01):
Um, and after Asia, uh, I movedback to the United States.
Um, interestingly, because I Ihad decided I was gonna be a
musician.
So, what does that have to dowith any of this?
But uh I don't know.
I was I was a punk rocker,right?
So I had had a guitar like allthis time.
I'd wrote all these songs andstuff, and I was like, I'm gonna

(16:22):
like record and I'm gonnarecord an album and like take
this on the road.
So I came back home to do that.
I had gotten a degree intheater, in musical theater,
before I ever left the country.
So I was a performer anyway.
I was used to being on stage.
Being a being in theater andbeing in performance is very
high energy and very uh sort ofit's an education in the heart

(16:44):
and an education in the psychethat is really hard to get in
any other manner.
So I think that's why there area lot of us in this space
actually.
Uh, but I was a performer.
I was a performer at that time.
There was a woman I had uh donesome Shakespeare with a couple
years earlier who had aprofessional troupe that went on
the road and did Shakespeare atRenaissance festivals.
So I spent a couple of years umtaking my music on the road and

(17:08):
doing Renaissance festivals.
And the Renaissance festivalsat first were sort of the cash
cow.
And then I'd take it on theroad and be in my camper van,
you know, going from like, youknow, I had a gig in like Cape
Cod for like a week where I'dlike play at this one place
called the Jetties that was soawesome.
And then like go up to throughlike New Jersey and New York.
And um, so it's like I wouldtake it on tour because it was

(17:30):
like girl with an acousticguitar, right?
Yeah.
Um, and that actually wentpretty well.
It got to the point where I wasmaking enough money touring,
you know, that like that was anoption.
But the reality was that myheart was longing for a type of

(17:50):
security that there was no wayto get out there.
I wanted a relationship.
I wanted to have a familyeventually.
And I was meeting lots ofpeople on the road, but man,
they were not the people to dothat stuff with.
There were a lot of issues withdrugs, there were a lot of
issues with like mental health,a lot of issues with like
narcissism or people that likeneed you to hold them up

(18:11):
emotionally or like sustain thememotionally.
And I was like, this is notfatherhood material out here.
Um, so the well, and this isfunny because I'm like this punk
rock girl too.
So it's like there's thisnesting part of me that still
was strong enough to be like,this can't go on.
So I started to ask, well, whatis the next step gonna be for

(18:34):
me?
And um interestingly, wherethis story breaks off right
here, I'm writing a book aboutthis right now, like this next
stage.
Yeah.
So, like the stuff I'm about totell you.
But it's the journey of howthis all became a profession for
me, like went from being athing I was interested in and
knew a lot about into the way Imake my living.

(18:56):
Um, I had done the RenaissanceFestival in Colorado, and
there's something about the skyout there next to the Rockies
that I haven't seen anywhereelse, maybe Montana-ish, but you
seem you're so close.
It's like you're so close tothe clouds.

(19:17):
There's something that feelsreally massive and spacious
there that was like calling tome.
And I got the opportunity tomove there, to move to Denver,
and I just said yes.
It was really just luck.
I hadn't even really beenlooking.
I'd been like asking, what ismy next step?
And this opportunity opened up.

(19:38):
And so I said yes.
And I went, and interestingly,uh, within a month of me
settling there, I met my nowhusband.
Whoa.
So this was more than 10 yearsago that this happened, but it's
it's one of those funny things,like you can call it
synchronicity or something else,but I think it's more like when
you're ready.
So a good example of this islike I had, I'd, I'd been

(20:03):
dating, I had met some guys,nothing, nothing was really
working, people were unhealthy.
And I finally got to the pointwhere I remember this moment
driving over a bridge.
Again, this huge Colorado skyat sunset, like a painting in
front of me.
And I was driving home fromwork and just started crying
because I was like, I mightalways be alone.

(20:24):
I mean, I knew I'd have likeserial boyfriends or something,
but you know, like I'll neverreally be settled and find that
partner.
I need to get right with myselfabout what a life alone really
means.
And that'll also be okay.
Yeah.
And being able to let go ofthat in that moment, it's like

(20:45):
my husband showed up like thenext week.
So it's like I realizedsomething had happened because I
had been yearning so much forthis thing that I wanted.
And once I finally grieved itand let it go and said, I guess
this isn't gonna happen for me,then I made space for to invite

(21:05):
something in instead of reachingout for it.
And that wasn't lost on meeither.

Frank (21:10):
Yeah.

Rosa (21:10):
Um, because we knew pretty much right away he moved in
with me a month after we met.

Frank (21:15):
Like we knew.
We knew.

Rosa (21:18):
Yeah, yeah.
There was no fooling around.
Like, um, and he he could tell,like, even on our first date,
it was a coffee date that endedup lasting for six hours till
like almost midnight, eventhough we had like work the next
day.
Well, seriously, because we itjust you know, it just we
understood what where we wereat.

(21:38):
Yeah, yeah.
Um, we were two people on thejourney, like not to pretend
that anyone has it figured out.
We knew we didn't have itfigured out, but it's like we
could see that we both were onthat path.
And so it was easy tocommunicate.
Uh, very soon after that, um Irealized that I wanted to build
a career of some description.

(22:00):
And the whole time, so I mean,when I was in high school, I
took AP calculus and AP physicsand stuff.
Like I've always been sort ofrenaissance woman, you know,
taking pottery class, singing inchoir, doing theater, punk rock
band, like also physics andcalculus.
I just, like I said, insatiablecuriosity, right?

Frank (22:18):
That's great.

Rosa (22:19):
And uh, and so when I was trying to figure out like what
job might I actually enjoy, likewhat career, not like being a
barista, but like a well, is agood career for some people,
actually.
But I wanted a career that feltright for me or felt exciting
to me.
I didn't want to get bored.
That had been my biggestAchilles heel.
And like where I gotself-destructive was always

(22:40):
correlated to when I startedgetting bored.

Frank (22:43):
Right.

Rosa (22:43):
So I was like, well, I bet I can't be bored.
It's gotta be challenging andit's gotta be interesting
intellectually.
So I was like, well, what'sharder than like getting a
physics degree?
And like being a physicistsounds really hard.
Also, I had big, come on, and Ialso had big, big questions
about the universe.
Um, what is all this?
What is reality?
What are we?

(23:04):
How do consciousness and andlike physical stuff, like how
does all this interface?
I had a lot of questions and Ididn't have a lot of answers.
And I thought to myself, well,who would know better about this
stuff than the physicists?
They're like smashing electronstogether.
Surely they know something,right?
Um, so that's the direction Iwent, and I made a little deal

(23:25):
with myself that I would uh Iwould apply for a scholarship to
go get a second degree, like inphysics.
And I was like, well, if I getthe scholarship, I'll go.
And if I don't get thescholarship, I'm not gonna pay
for this.
You know, I'll do somethingelse.
Um, but I got the scholarship,and so like I took the bet and I
went.
I loved being a physicsstudent.
Like I it's so juicy and likeso challenging.

(23:49):
And I am a nerd and I lovemath, you know.
And um, so much about the worldis so well described through
the beautiful language ofmathematics.
I was, I mean, I got a stomachulcer from the amount of coffee
I was drinking, but I also hadthe time of my life, you know.
You know, um, but that beingsaid, even during this time, my

(24:14):
spiritual journey was inprocess.
I had uh, you know, I hadexperiences with like plant
medicines.
Um, I definitely had friendsthat I could have these deep
conversations with.
In fact, I started a studentclub called Phi Dip, uh, which
was philosophical discussions inphysics, where we would talk

(24:34):
about the intersection betweenphilosophy and physics, you
know, and and there are a lot ofjuicy conversations there.
Cause as y'all, I'm sure, areaware of quantum mechanics and
quantum physics is used as likethe big catch-all in so many
spiritual discussions.
And we, as physics students,wanted to get down to the
nitty-gritty and really talkabout what that means.

(24:56):
So, here's one of those funnythings that goes back to the
materialist paradigm.
They want things to bephysical, they want things to be
solid.
Well, guess what?
Physicists have figured out inthe lab at the tiniest level,
nothing is solid.
Everything's space,everything's vacuum almost
entirely.
So, like what you experience assolidity or physicality is

(25:20):
actually just electromagneticinteractions.
It's the fact that the electroncloud around the atoms of your
hand on this side don't like theelectron cloud around the atoms
in your hand on this side.
So when you clap, one handstops the other, you know?
So what you're actuallyexperiencing is
electromagnetism, likeelectromagnetic repulsion.

(25:42):
Nothing's actually liketouching in this way.
Also, at the same time, we'resharing electrons all the time.
So, for example, like when youkiss somebody or hug your dog,
y'all are exchanging electronsthe whole time.
So, like, what part of thephysical matter belongs to them?
What part belongs to you?
What part belongs to the treeI'm hugging as a child?

(26:03):
We share all of that, you know.
And if you're more intobiology, like go find out how
much of your body is made ofmicrobes that don't share any of
your DNA.
Like, what are you?
Right.
You're a you are a collectivephysically.
So why is it so outlandish toimagine that we are a collective
consciously?

(26:23):
You know?
So I guess it at the end of theday, um, that club was probably
a big part of this too.
I haven't thought about this inyears.
I've like forgotten that I didthis.
Uh, but it was such a yeah, butit was like full of juicy
conversations that tried to tieit all together in like a
grounded way.
And I now it's like I'm seeingit now that that was probably

(26:46):
the seed of what I do now, whichis saying there's space to have
this whole conversation withoutjust totally making stuff up or
talking about things weactually don't know what we're
talking about.
There is a way to hold all ofthis at once.
Um, but anyway, to kind of getto the end of this part of the
story, I decided I was going tograd school.

(27:07):
Now I was like, if I'm doingphysics or whatever, I'm going
all the way.
I'm gonna get a PhD, I'm gonnatry to be a professor, I'm gonna
do the whole thing.
However, when I had just likefinished my physics degree and I
was headed to grad school inSanta Cruz, my uh my roommate
passed and it was very traumaticin the house, not it was really

(27:31):
bad.
Yeah.
And I ended up getting uh PTSDfrom that experience.
And so I was in therapy for awhile to try to manage my
symptoms.
And um, and the therapy workedin the sense that like
cognitively I understoodeverything.
I knew it wasn't my fault,blah, blah, blah.
Like I get it, but I was havingsuch bad symptoms that I was

(27:55):
like dissociating in the middleof a research meeting and stuff.
Like it was really affecting myyeah, like I was having a hard
time functioning in my firstyear of grad school, which is
like the worst.
You gotta, you gotta be at yourbest because that is like the
the the steepest on ramp of yourlife, is like the first year of
grad school.
I'm sure as an astrophysicist.

(28:16):
So um, so anyway, I reallyneeded help because I was like,
this is not working, I'm notgetting any sleep, like that.
I'm a I'm a wreck, right?
When I need to really show up.
And in Santa Cruz, which Istill believe is the woo capital
of America, I was like, I willtry anything.
And I found uh this mountainman in the Santa Cruz Mountains

(28:37):
who had a cabin out there, whichI went to, and he had like 12
certifications, like Reiki,hypnosis, energy, shaman,
healing, soul retrieval.
You know, so it's like I'mlooking through this like
laundry list of certifications,and I'm like, I don't know what
any of this is.
Yeah, I will just tell him theproblem I'm having, and he's the

(29:01):
professional, he can decidewhat he's gonna do with me.
And so we went and had ameeting.
I told him what was going on, Itold him why, and I was like,
what you got for me?
And he decided to do hypnosiswork with me.
Um, it was uh about an hour anda half long session.
Um I didn't know what to expectat all, but I was all in, you

(29:24):
know, I was gonna do it becauseI wanted help, you know, I was
ready to let this go.
And in that 90 minutes, Idiscovered that the problems I
was having were because I hadcreated um what I visualized
during hypnosis as a guilt baby.

(29:45):
So it's like imagine a babyshaped entity like made of black
sludge, um, very hard tohandle, very uncomfortable to
handle, and full of like thedarkest kinds.
Emotions you can imagine.
And I was nurturing it becauseI felt that if I let it go, I

(30:05):
would be a bad person.
Wow.
And during this session, wediscovered this and I got to
feel all the feelings and bewith that and then get
permission.
You know, he brought inArchangel Michael, which was a
little hilarious.
I had left church long ago.
Like when I was like 14, I waslike, forget y'all.
Um so I didn't know an angelwas coming to visit me, but like

(30:29):
that's who he called in.
He called in Archangel Michael.
Archangel Michael comes in withlike a posse.
So there's like a crew.
Yeah.
Don't know who they were.
But anyway, uh, they were like,give us the baby.
And I'm like, uh, and they'relike, come on, it'll be all
right.
And I'm like, okay.
So, you know, we hand over thesticky baby and they take it
into the light.
And uh, and I'm like, okay, Iguess this is fine.

(30:50):
I never had another PTSDsymptom.

Lauren (30:53):
Oh.

Rosa (30:54):
And at first I was a little skeptical, but as the
weeks went by and the symptomsdidn't return, I was like full
on evangelized because I thoughtto myself, if this method is
this effective in one session,it should be healthcare.

Lauren (31:11):
Yeah.

Frank (31:12):
Yeah.
God.
Wait, so real quick, I don't Idon't want to interrupt, but
what was your you know, when youwhen we when we meet with our
with our mountain men shamans,uh like we all do, the what was
your actual experience duringthat that session?
Was were you were you seeingArchangel Michael on his posse

(31:32):
or or is this?

Rosa (31:33):
Oh yeah.
I was fully aware the wholetime.

Frank (31:36):
Okay.

Rosa (31:36):
I was fully aware the whole time.
So now, well, fast forwardreally quick.
Now I am a hypnotist and uhwork with lots of people in very
deep states of hypnosis.
Uh there are plenty of myclients who remember everything
during the session.
It kind of starts to fade.
So we record it and record themtalking about it so they can
listen to it.
Because it can be dreamlike andstart to kind of disappear

(31:58):
after uh uh like two or threehours.
Um, but I have had a few, notvery many, I have had a few
clients come up from a two-hoursession embarrassed because they
think they've been asleep thewhole time.
Oh, wow.
And in my experience, thathappens when the news that's
coming through is something theymight not be very comfortable

(32:19):
with.

Frank (32:20):
They're protecting themselves, right?

Rosa (32:22):
Because the reality is that people can absolutely stop
a session if they want to.
You can wake up if you want to.
Especially in the modalitiesthat I use, that's one of the
really important parts of thecontract we make as two people
that are working together.
But because of that, if it'ssomething that the higher self
thinks the ego mind will wake upfrom or won't be able to sit

(32:47):
with during session or willprevent from happening, they
will like fall asleep by theirown reckoning so that the
information can come throughthem.
And then as I tell all myclients, the real work isn't in
session, the real work is whenthey listen to the session
later, because that's when theego gets to hear all the things
they had to say.

Frank (33:09):
Mm-hmm.

Lauren (33:12):
Mm-hmm.
So they But no, I was there formy whole sleeping, but they're
like talking through the wholething.

Rosa (33:17):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, I don't think they'reasleep.
They're talking to me.
I know that they're they'redoing what they're supposed to
be doing.
Yeah.
That's it's like a translation.
We are in conversation.
So wild.
Because all of my sessions arerecorded, you have that safety.
You have the safety to go deepand fall asleep because you have
a detailed recording ofeverything that happened.

(33:38):
So nothing gets lost in there.
There's no like, you know whatI mean?
It's different if you fallasleep and you don't know what
happened.
Yeah.
But instead, what's happeningis you have an account of
everything that happened.
So you're not actually left inthe dark.
That makes space for them tocome get what they need from the
session, even if the ego mindwould fight against it.

(33:59):
They came for a reason.

Lauren (34:01):
Yeah.

Rosa (34:01):
You know, like I don't make people sign up.
Like this is a this is bigwork.
In fact, I would argue it'simpossible, it's it's bad news
to try to persuade anyone to doit because it is such deep work.
You don't want to do it withsomeone who's not ready or
doesn't know that it's the thingthey need to do next.
Right.
And when they know, they canhandle the difficult thing.

(34:22):
But what I see sometimes isthat I'll have a client who
won't listen to their recordingfor months or years.
I had a funny situation where Ihad a client.

Frank (34:31):
I'm literally in the middle of writing a question.
How often do you how often doyou get clients who will not
address what they the recording?

Rosa (34:38):
Well, here's a really funny story.
My husband, who uh was myguinea pig when I was getting my
certification, he was the firstone.
He's the first one I ever didthis, uh, did hypnosis on.
And there's two stages.
There's a regression stagewhere you might go to a past
life or some other type ofexperience.
And then there's a higher selfstage where we're in direct

(34:58):
conversation with the collectiveaspect of self, which is
deeper.
It's the deepest stage ofhypnosis.
And he listened, I rememberwhen I was like, you got to
listen to your recording, yougot to listen to it.
And he goes up and lays down tolisten to it and give it his
full focus.
And I, you know, I can hear ittoo.
I was there, you though I knowwhat he said.

(35:18):
But it's like we're gettingthrough the regression, we're
getting through the regression,getting all the stuff about the
life he experienced.
And then the second the higherself comes through, he started
snoring.
And I was like, You gottalisten to this.
Like, why are you asleep?
And and what's funny is that wetried to do this twice, and
whenever we get to the higherself, boom, he's out.

(35:40):
Oh my gosh, that's really funny.
We are eight years down the roadfrom that moment.
He still has not let he stillhasn't listened to the higher
self half of his recording, youknow?
What?
But I have another, yeah, Ihave another client who's a
who's a professor, but shewasn't a professor yet when we
did our session.

(36:01):
And so she didn't listen to iteither.
She didn't listen to it for twoyears.
And when she did listen to it,she called me and was like, oh
my gosh, I finally listened toit.
And everything I said wasexactly what I needed to hear
now.
Whoa.

Frank (36:17):
So it's waiting for that.

Rosa (36:19):
Well, yes, but in a way, I laugh at this because I'm like,
it's not a magic woo thing thatit's everything she needed to
hear then.
It's that she didn't do thatwork for two years because she
didn't listen to the recording.
Yeah, so it was still just it'slike the work weights.

Frank (36:35):
A delayed, delayed lesson.

Rosa (36:37):
Mm-hmm.

Frank (36:38):
So we we you had your you had your session with the my
session, yeah.

Rosa (36:43):
With the mountain man.
Yeah, yeah.
Such an such an archetype, too.
Like that was that was reallypowerful.
But he it I was healed, right?
Like my I it it addressed allmy symptoms.
I was evangelized.
Uh, and I'm also the type ofperson, look, I if you're the
type of person who's like, I'mjust gonna sign up for an
astrophysics PhD, then this waslike no big deal.

(37:05):
So I was like, okay, if I wantto share this with other people,
I will just learn it and I willdo it.
I will, it's fine, it'll begreat.

Lauren (37:12):
Of course, yeah.

Rosa (37:13):
Yeah.
Um, so probably within maybe amonth or six weeks of my
session, I was training incertification in hypnosis.
So, so and that was my firstyear of grad school.
So these things really wenthand in hand on this journey.
So I was training uh andtranspersonal hypnosis is not
the same as clinical hypnosis.

(37:35):
Transpersonal hypnosis isalmost always spiritually based.
So when you meet someone who'sdoing past life regression or uh
regressions that take you toother planets and stuff like
that, they are a transpersonalhypnotist.
The the the found it thefoundational belief is that
consciousness is not tied to thebody.

Frank (37:55):
Okay.

Rosa (37:56):
So anyone who's helping you kind of astral project or go
backward or forward throughtime, that's always
transpersonal hypnosis.
So when you're training it,you're training in a lot of
metaphysics and spiritual stufftoo, because of how the
framework that they treatconsciousness in is embedded in
this spiritual framework.
So it's like you can't do onewithout the other.

Frank (38:18):
Got it.
Okay.

Rosa (38:19):
So because of that, here I am, I'm doing my classes, I'm
writing my papers, I'm doing myresearch um in astrophysics and
doing all this stuff on theside.
So it in a sense, it's like Ireally had my hard knocks
getting my certification becausealmost everyone I was working
with for my certificationclients were like hardcore

(38:40):
science people.
So these are like my officemates.
Yeah.

Frank (38:44):
You are you are hitting both ends of the spectrum here
at the same time really hard.
And yeah.
That had to be a little thatwas like that had to be very
like mind-bending.
Uh were you seeing how one ledinto the other?

Rosa (39:00):
They talk to each other.
Of course they talk to eachother in astral.
But if you're surrounded by thecity, about like cosmology and
like whether the universe isfinite or infinite, yeah, is
mind-blowing by itself.
Learning about the physics of ablack hole and the beginning of
time is mind-blowing by itself.
Do you know how manymathematicians end up dying

(39:22):
early deaths because they'reworking in such an abstract
space that they like cannot,they cannot function.
They cannot hang out.
It's like too weird out there,you know?
Um, and in a strange way, doingthe spiritual work hand in hand
with this helped ground itbecause what spiritual endeavors

(39:44):
can give us that science nevercan is why.
Yeah.
Spiritual endeavors give uspurpose, they reveal to us
slowly life's meaning and themeaning of existence.
Science can never do that.
Science can answer the questionhow, but philosophy and

(40:07):
spirituality are the only thingthat can answer the question
why.

Frank (40:10):
So during this period of time, are you in your own?
Because I'm assuming you don'thave a lot of peers that are on
the same journey.

Rosa (40:16):
This is sort of an interesting thing, which is that
uh I think I in I don't know ifthere's anyone else in the hard
side.
There are plenty of people inthe social sciences that walk
this path, particularly peoplewho end up with PsyD, like a
like a psychological, like adoctorate in psychology and
stuff like that, do kind of tendtoward the woo side sometimes.

Frank (40:36):
Yeah.

Rosa (40:36):
I don't know if there's anyone else in the hard sciences
that has walked this path.
I have not met them.
Uh, but something that'sinteresting to me is that I do
have many hard scientist friendsthat are on a personal journey,
not a professional journey.
And they may not ever openlytalk about it, particularly in a

(40:56):
professional or public forum.

Frank (40:58):
Yeah.

Rosa (40:59):
But that's probably why they find me because they know
they can talk to me about it.
So in a sense, I've become asafe space for those people.
Interesting.

Lauren (41:08):
Yeah.
Were you having colleagues andlike you know, classmates that
were like, what are you doing?
Like where you felt kind ofcriticized or judged?

Rosa (41:20):
Judged, no.
But also, I think some parts ofme, I think in a way I can be
kind of a force of nature.
So I don't I haven't actuallydealt with much direct criticism
of like myself or who I am.
But also I'm a veryheart-centered person.
And in general, uh therelationship has the power to

(41:42):
overcome any misgivings they mayhave about my pursuits or my
interests because they know howthey feel when we're together.
Yeah.
Uh, I think it's very powerfulto lead from the heart because
of that.
And also, I don't need to beright.
Like my ideas change.
My ideas of my personalcosmology change when I learn
new things.

(42:02):
Yeah.
So like it doesn't, it doesn'tneed to be in opposition because
I'm still learning.
Yeah.

Frank (42:10):
So this is the part that I find so interesting so far is
because you are you aresurrounded by or in a field
where like materialism is thepredominant, I'm gonna call it
belief system.
Are materialists even availableto have those um old
definitions redefined, which iskind of like the what science is
supposed to do in the firstplace discover the continuous

(42:32):
discovery and and building onprior definitions and
understandings.
But uh I that was the veryloaded question, I'm sorry.

Rosa (42:42):
No, no.
One of my office mates backthen, who is still one of my
best friends, is in that boat.
Yeah.
He is very materialist, but wealso love each other.
Sure.
And we have had hours of healthydebate over the course of our
friendship about these verythings.
And what these debates alwayskind of settle into is that the

(43:07):
framework we each have forunderstanding, for example, what
these practices are aboutdoesn't have to match because
what the practices do is whatmatters.
And this is what I say to myclients who are interested in
doing hypnosis with me is thatthey don't actually have to have
any belief system.
They don't have to believe inpast lives.

(43:29):
They can just think that whatwe're doing together is an
imaginative exercise because itstill works.
Sure, yeah.
I don't have to believe inangels, but in my mind, I saw a
gaggle of angels.
I don't know the technical termfor it.
I'm pretty sure it's a gaggle.
It's definitely a murder ofangels.

(43:51):
But whatever they are, I sawthem carry this strange thing
away out of my body.
And and but but see what I'msaying?
It's like I don't have tobelieve it.
I just have to, I just have toagree to the process.
And when I agree to theprocess, incredible things have
happened, not just for me, butfor my clients too.
Incredible things.

(44:12):
And you can try to explain itaway with placebo effect and
what have you, or like totalwoo, like aliens came down and
fixed my back.
I don't care.
It's fine.
Whatever it is is fine becauseit worked, it helped you, and
now you're happier, and now yourlife is better, and now your
relationships are better.
So the framework, of course, Ihave my own.

(44:35):
I have like my working model,right?
But it's not important to mewhat your framework is.
That's probably the core of thework that I do, is that I'm not
trying to teach my way, I'mtrying to help you figure out
your way.
Yeah.
You know what I'm saying?
Because like we can't alwaysrelate exactly to one another.
But what I do know how to do ishelp people with a whole broad

(44:58):
gamut of belief systems to findtheir way to a better life for
themselves and a better dailyexperience for themselves.
I think that's really powerful.
And I think that's why Ihaven't dealt with a ton of
blowback and stuff from being apart of this, because when
someone's like a rotematerialist, I'm not going to
them talking about angels andspirits and stuff.
We're talking about the meatand potatoes practical tools.

(45:21):
We talk about the practicesbecause that's what they can
connect with and try and see forthemselves works, right?
So it's like understanding thatyou meet people where they're
at, no matter what their beliefsystem is or whatever their
level of personal developmentis.
Um and what it's really aboutis having respect for their

(45:45):
framework and their way ofrelating with the world.
We all come to it in our ownway and in our own time.
You know what I'm saying?
Yes.
Yeah.

Frank (45:53):
Yes.

Rosa (45:54):
But I don't end up with a lot of arguments with people
because of how I approach andmake space for them.
Because what ends up happeningis that they approach me
instead.
And then it's an invitation,you know?

Frank (46:07):
Right.
How dare you be open-minded.
The the okay, let me ask you qua question real quick.
Uh, how is how uh your yourvarious skill sets here?
How are what does this looklike in execution now?
Are you actively using your PhDor is it mostly the
hypnotherapist stuff, or are youdo you you're doing both?

(46:27):
What is it?

Rosa (46:29):
I do a lot.
So um I I have a lot oftechnical skills because my PhD
was in computationalastrophysics.
So I still am actively involvedin research.
I have grad students that Iwork with.
Um, I also contract workinglike in the machine learning
space.
So I really likemission-focused work that's like
save the environment and youknow, stuff like that.

(46:51):
I'm very much I'm big on likenurture and love and save the
world, is like totally where I'mat.
Um, so the technical skills Ihave, very happy to apply them
to those types of things.
While at the same time, I havea professional practice.
So I do see one-on-one clientsfor hypnosis.
I do workshops a lot.
Uh, I get a lot out of doingthis work in community with

(47:15):
people.
Um, and in fact, I find thatworkshops are really ripe space
for big work to happen.
What's interesting in hypnosissometimes?
So I'll do these past liferegression workshops where let's
say I have like 10 people cometogether and none of them know
each other.
They've never met before, theyjust came because they were
curious or whatever.

(47:35):
So some people are truebelievers, some people are like,
I don't even know what this is,my wife made me come, you know.
So we get the full range.
Yeah.
And then stuff will happenwhere we'll do the regression
and come back, and everyone getsa chance to talk about if
they're comfortable, they get achance to talk about what they
just experienced.
And I've had on multipleoccasions, two people who didn't

(47:57):
know each other will have aregression experience where they
are together in the regression.

Frank (48:03):
Wow.

Rosa (48:04):
So I had one example where two women went back to medieval
times and one was the husbandand one was the wife.
And when one of them wasdescribing her experience in the
regression, the other one wasjust sitting there with her jaw
on the floor.
Like because they had the sameregression.
Just one was the wife and onewas the husband, and they

(48:24):
realized like they came togetherand met each other again in
this life.
Like, how do you explain that?
That is really That is soamazing.
I've had right.
I've had evidential regressionswhere someone uh got so much
information from the past liferegression that they were able
to go get on archives and findthe person that they were.

Frank (48:45):
You know, uh that's gotta be like disorienting, just a
little bit.

Rosa (48:50):
Well, but I mean, maybe, maybe, but but then you know, I
had a second uh not a sessionwith this woman.
I sometimes we just have totalk to each other.
It's not a hypnosis session,it's like a I call them
integration sessions, which iswhen we discuss what happened
and try to put it into contextand help people settle down and
bring it into their beliefsystem because sometimes it can

(49:11):
be jarring, right?
And when we had thisconversation, um, and she
presented me with thisinformation, and we were looking
at the historical records, andI was like, well, this is
fantastic because I have neverspent much time on evidential
past life regressions becauseit's not my thing, it's not
important to me.
I care about the results.
Like, are is it helping you?

(49:33):
You know, but um but she waslike, What does this all mean?
Was that person even me?
Because she realized she hadtapped into this other lifetime,
but um, but she wasn't evensure that it was her, but she
got all this evidence.
And when in the discussion thatwe had, it's like, well, why
would she have such a specificuh regression with all this

(49:58):
specific information, even if itwas her, like what is the
point?
Because it's like this guy wasa sea, like a boat builder, like
um like a like of big ships,like back in the 1600s or
something.
So that I don't know the namefor that job, but it was a very
specialized, highly technicalleadership role.
Um, and she's like, I don'treally have issues, I don't like

(50:20):
love sailing or something.
Like, what is this about?
And sometimes, and I see this alot in my big long sessions
with single clients, the higherself explains that the reason
they had this strange experiencewas because their ideas about
reality and the self needed someexpanding.
It is opening the door, it's aninvitation, and if you want to

(50:45):
fold up that invitation and putit in the trash, you can.

Frank (50:48):
Or not listen to it for eight years.

Rosa (50:50):
That's right.
Yes, but most people find thathard because most people find
that it kind of keeps it keepslike poking them, or it it's
like an itch that doesn't goaway unless you do something
about it, right?

Frank (51:02):
Yeah, you know, even subconsciously, I feel like we
we as a people spend so muchtime uh wondering about the the
model that is existence.
And uh like and if you don't,like you're probably turning
something off that you shouldn'thave turned off, just that that
blatant curiosity, right?

(51:23):
But then to like ha get like afunny answer from like a really
not a funny, I mean like aninteresting answer from uh a
regression, and then to notlisten to it.
Yeah.
It's gotta be this thing thatjust eats you alive, and or like
the thing that uh oh my, Icouldn't imagine.
I couldn't imagine.
But also, yeah, like havinglike living in a safe,

(51:45):
predefined space for yourself,like will only take you so far.
And at some point you're uh Ialways feel like I always feel
like uh in spirit, we're alwaysgiven an option between the easy
way and the hard way.
And if you're not taking it theeasy way through someone nice
and loving like you, then you'regonna get it the hard way.
And listen to the recordings.

Rosa (52:08):
Yeah, it's true.
The teachers do get tougher thelonger you ignore the lesson
that is that is inviting you in.

Frank (52:16):
Oh, so you've experienced this too.

Rosa (52:18):
Oh, all the time.
Look, what was my 20s, youknow?
Yes.
So yeah, I got a chance to livethrough the loops where the
hammer gets bigger and biggerevery time, and you're still
avoiding and you're stillavoiding until finally, you
know, people have what I calltheir tower moment.
Like in tarot, there's thetower card where everyone's

(52:40):
jumping out of the window andthe tower burns down.
That is what is waiting for youif you keep avoiding your work.
Not to like freak people out.
It's more like this is mesaying there's another way to do
things.
When the lesson comes for you,say yes.
Right.
Yeah.
You know, or if you don't haveany bandwidth, like when my
daughter was really small andwasn't sleeping a lot, and I had

(53:02):
like zero bandwidth, and alesson would show up, I would be
like, Can it wait?
You know.
So there are definitely timeswhere I didn't have the
bandwidth, but I also havetrust.
I know that when I say can itwait, the answer is also yes.
And when it comes around again,I need to be more aware and
check in and say, oh, this isthat same thing as last time.
Like, I want to handle it whenI can, and that way the process

(53:25):
is more gentle.
Like that's a very realphenomenon.

Frank (53:29):
I was gonna ask you way earlier on, like, if you've had
any latent like psychic uhabilities, like come online or
anything like that, because wetalk about that so much on the
show.
Oh, you have.

Rosa (53:42):
Uh, I have really I so this is something I do have
strong beliefs about, but I bety'all hear this all the time.
Let's hear it.
I think er I think everybody hasthe same capacity to uh use uh
psychic gifts or whatever.
You they have all kinds ofnames.
Some people call them like theClaire's, like Claire uh, well,

(54:03):
I mean, hence your the yourpodcast title, right?
But it's like Claire audience,Claire Sentience, et cetera, et
cetera.
Um, I really think that theseskills and capabilities are
present in all human beings.
Um however, the biggerquestion, so I I've been
thinking about this actually.

(54:24):
I have a lot of clients whocome to me, and one of their big
things they want to work on isthey want to develop their
psychic ability.
They either have had likelittle uncontrolled
circumstances where they'relike, I had, I had four, like I
could see into the future thisone time and it helped me avoid
a car accident, but I want totap into that and use it more or

(54:44):
something like that.
They, or I want to be a medium,or or I wanna, you know, I have
a friend right now who'straining to become like a
forensic, uh, a forensic mediumto like help law enforcement and
stuff.
So like, and the question Ialways ask, I'll get to I'll
skip to the end and then I'llcome back to my question.
In their sessions, what thehigher self keeps telling these

(55:08):
people is what's the rush?
Why do you need more skill thanyou have in this moment?
And that's the question youhave to answer for yourself
because understanding why youwant greater capacity is the key
to unlocking it.
For some people, it's like, uh,I want to help people.
For some people, it's like I'mjust curious.

(55:28):
And what you'll find is thatpeople who want to use it in
service of others can veryquickly develop it just through
practice, like literally justpractice.
Um, and then people that aremore like curiosity driven or
almost it's almost like asuperpower thing, like I want to
be able to use it to make moneyor something like that, they'd

(55:50):
stumble over it.
Yeah.
So, in a sense, what ismotivating you has a lot to do
with the role those skills endup playing in your life.
And in a sense, that's why forme, I have never spent what I
have spent time doing islearning how to navigate and
master my levels ofconsciousness.
That is what I've spent timeon.
Is like some people might it'srelated to like astral

(56:13):
projection and stuff like that.
But what it really is for me,it's not about flying over to
see what some CIA base lookslike at all.
Don't care, whatever.
That's not my thing.
It's about shifting throughlevels so that I can understand
from higher perspectives thepatterns in human behavior.
I am trying to help the world.

(56:33):
So it's like when I am shiftingin my consciousness, it's to
try to help solve problems andhelp people.
And it's not so much about likeseeing a thing that happened in
the past or channeling someoneelse's higher self.
I actually I'm gonna be carefulwith what I say because I want
to be respectful of people'swork.
What I love about the approachI use is that it is the client's

(56:57):
job to channel their high selfso that it's not polluted by my
lens.
You know what I mean?
Like I work very hard to be aclear channel because I want to
hold a safe and loving space,not because I need to be the
messenger of their purpose.

Frank (57:18):
Yeah, it's not your removing the unhealthy,
unbalanced ego from it.
I feel like that same mentalityor that same space that you're
coming from is the reason whyyou don't necessarily
acknowledge, or it's not in yourpurview, the um limitations
that other people might see.
But you're like, you're you'retrying to see everything from a
higher perspective.
So those limitations are onlyfor them.

(57:39):
It's their walls, not yourwall.
It's such an interestingperspective to me.
I I love that.
And such a non-egotisticalperspective too, which I also
love.

Rosa (57:46):
I think that's just the way of the future.
Like, I don't even think that'sa me thing.
I think all of us are beginningto understand that having a
heart of service is how we'regonna make this work, right?
Like surely it's not just me,you know.
Yeah.

Lauren (58:00):
Yeah.
Like however you can, whateveryour thing, like your whatever
sparks joy and gets you to betruly of service to other
people, like then you know, wealways talk about that.
Like one person's healing kindof trickles into other people,
and you start making that reallysparks change.

Frank (58:22):
And and to your other point, uh like I want to see
ghosts so bad, but it's just notreally happening.

Lauren (58:33):
But see, maybe your higher self would be asking why.

Frank (58:36):
I know, but there's no and I'll tell you why, because
that's cool.
And that's not necessarily it'snot necessary.
What I am doing is I'm startingto work out my own emotions
better to where I can feel otherpeople's emotions and help them
sort those out.
And that's where I'm like,well, that's not as tangible as
seeing a spooky dude.

Rosa (58:56):
But look, if you really need it, I heard that there's
this ride at Disney World whereyou can go.
I think I know the one that'ssitting in the booth next to you
if you've gotta have it.

Lauren (59:11):
And they say, watch out if someone comes home with you.

Rosa (59:16):
Yeah.
Oh my gosh, that's so funny.
Um I have a story very that likethat tracks with what you just
said though.
Um, because again, like this isme feeling like a very meat and
potatoes person.
Sure.
I have never seen a ghost.
I have had some spookyexperiences, but nothing I could
see, right?

(59:36):
Um, nor have I seen Bigfoot oryou know, his associates.
You know, like I have not seenhis stamina colleagues, yes.
The big feet.
Right.
The feet, yeah.
I have not seen uh I've I'veright.
I have not had anything likethat in my life.
And I was talking to myhusband, and I had to sit down

(59:58):
with myself, um Because I mean,I don't, I'm not gonna like dive
into the alien rabbit hole orwhatever, but it's like suffice
to say, I'm fairly convincedit's a spiritual phenomenon.
But I was thinking to myself,like, well, these poor people
have had these really intenseexperiences.
And I would like to think aboutmyself that if I saw, you know,

(01:00:21):
somebody land from anotherplanet, that I'd be like, hey,
what's up?
Let's hang out.
What is interesting?
What why are you here?
What's interesting to you?
And then I when I sat down andreally tried to like conjure in
my imagination how I wouldreally feel having an experience
like them, where like they'recoming in your bedroom and
stuff.
You're right.
So it's like I imagine myself,I'm in my bed and I'm looking at

(01:00:42):
the foot of my bed, and in mymind's eye, I'm conjuring, okay,
an entity just walked throughthe wall and is standing at the
foot of my bed, and I just peedmy pants.

Frank (01:00:51):
Yes.

Rosa (01:00:52):
You know, so like in my mind's eye, in my mind's eye, I
did.
Not in real life, but likethat's what I'm saying is like I
realized in trying to envisionlike envision that moment, I'm
not psychologically prepared toactually go through this
situation.
So I am perfectly happy to notgo through it.
Thank you very much.
I'm good.

Frank (01:01:14):
Wait, I have this brings me up.
Oh God, I have so manyquestions for you.
But I I do have a questionbecause you're you were talking
earlier about being somewhat atsomewhat adjacent to um like
astral projection.

Rosa (01:01:26):
Do you actually practice that or uh I have done, yeah.
I have practiced it actively.
Um now I would call what I do,uh I would call it dream
walking.
Sure.
Slightly different from astralprojecting in that like uh I'm
not it's not an intentionalpractice where I'm like, I would

(01:01:46):
like to hop out tonight and govisit this thing or visit this
person.
I don't do that.
I have a lot of faith,especially actually for my
hypnosis practice.
I have faith in my higher self,understanding the work that's
needed.
And so I'm very like open aboutit.
I'm like, I'm going to bed,whatever comes up, comes up, and
that's okay.

Frank (01:02:04):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rosa (01:02:05):
Yeah.
But um, but so what ishappening uh in the past,
actually, this I remember thisbeautiful moment where uh we
were at home, it was COVID, wehad a newborn baby, and things
were getting really hard becausewe it was lockdown, we're
alone, we're we're nobodysleeping.
Yeah, yeah.
Um, you know, and so everyone'sreally stressed and having a

(01:02:26):
hard time.
Me and my husband had a bigfight.
It was awful.
And we went to sleep.
Uh, I was studying Bob Monroe'swork at this time.
Maybe y'all have heard of him.
He's sort of I I would say he'sthe father of astral projection
in a in a way.
So if you haven't heard readhis books, he's still gone.
But his uh research instituteis called the Monroe Institute.

(01:02:48):
It's still out there inVirginia.

Frank (01:02:50):
Yeah.

Rosa (01:02:51):
So yeah, yeah.
So that's Bob Monroe.
I was studying his work at thistime.
And so I'm all heartbroken,horrible fight, tiny baby, went
to bed that night to go tosleep.
And I was like, I'm doing ittonight.
I'm gonna astrophysic, youknow.
So I like set my intention.
I'm out of here.
I'm out of here.
Yeah.
And uh, and you know, myhusband and I went to bed like

(01:03:13):
facing away from each otherwithout a word.
Very sad, right?
Well, I went to sleep, andalmost immediately I found
myself floating above us,floating above our bodies on the
bed and looked down.
I was like, Oh, I'm out.
And I'm looking at my body, I'mlike, oh, there's me.
And then I look over and I'mlike, oh, there's him.
And then I look to my left andhe's there floating next to me.

(01:03:33):
What?
He was floating next to me andhe was so happy to see me, and I
was so happy to see him.
It was like all it was was likelove and friendship and fun.
And I realized in that momentthat on the other side of like
the window dressing of our lifedramas, yeah, we were still

(01:03:55):
completely best friends, yeah,and like completely just
delighted to be together, justto be together and just in each
other's presence.
And um, and that really healedmy heart in that moment and
really helped me let go of thedifficulties we were having.
But it doesn't stop there.
We went off on this grandadventure together, and I won't

(01:04:18):
get too into the details, but inthe morning, I woke up and I
asked him, Did you dream lastnight?
And he was like, Yeah.
And I was like, tell me whatyou dreamt.
And what we discovered is thatalthough how we interpreted what
we saw was different, but whatwe saw was the same.

(01:04:38):
In his dream, we were together.
And in my dream, we went off toa house, like a living room
with a bunch of furniture in it,where we were traveling through
time in the house.
So it's like it was on fastforward while we watched this
person kind of go through theirlife.
And somewhere in the timeline,he wandered off and we got
separated.
And I was like, shoot, I don'tknow when he jumped off, so I

(01:04:59):
don't know where to like rewindback to.
And that was kind of the end ofthe dream.
I was like, Oh, we gotseparated, and I went home,
right?
Went back to my body.
In his dream, we were togetherat a Home Depot in the furniture
section.
Oh.
So we so he was in this sort ofliving room setup where you know
how they sometimes have likethe fridge and the windows and

(01:05:20):
like kind of set it up like ahouse.
That's where we were together.
But in his dream, he just wentout to the car to wait for me to
finish up.
Oh my god.
And I never came.
So he went back to his body,right?
So it's it was this interestingmoment where it's not just this
thing we experience on our own,it is also something we do
together.
And getting to visit with theconsciousness of a loved one in

(01:05:44):
that other space, nothing ishidden.
And I think that's why itbecame so important to me to
really get the channel clearbecause your whole self, whether
you're unhealed or whateveryour hangups are, is on show
over there.
And that it's not like youshould be embarrassed, but it's
actually a really good way tocalibrate where you don't have

(01:06:05):
good self-regulation and wherethere's something you need to
address.
So, in a sense, it's like it'sless about what we're doing on
the other side.
It's more about what it teachesus about where our work is so
that we can show up with otherpeople in the right way, you
know, in a supportive way.
Um, dream walking, on the otherhand, always feels like work in
a way.

(01:06:25):
It's like I'm clocking in andthere's something that needs to
be done.
And then I come back.
And it's way less directed byme than astral projection.
Astral projection feels verymuch I'm driving the bus and I
want to go visit this thing.
Um, but I, you know, I have oldissues with control.
So it actually helps me topractice staying in this open

(01:06:48):
way and saying, I trust that I'mshown that I'm ushered off to
where I'm needed, you know.

Frank (01:06:54):
That's so I haven't I haven't heard anybody make that
distinction between the dreamwalking versus astral
projection.

Lauren (01:07:03):
Sorry, I love too that like you but when because you uh
went to sleep mad at him, andlike I love that when you
recognized him in this space, itwas just so like sweet and full
of love and like rememberinglike, oh yeah, I'm not that mad
at you.
Like, I'm not mad at you atall.
I love you.

(01:07:23):
I love that, yeah.

Frank (01:07:26):
Yeah, it's also interesting that story because
um, you know, I I always uh whenI talk to like my daughter when
she's had like a weird dream,and I I'm always saying, Okay,
well, you know, sometimes ourdreams are your brain is trying
to make sense of emotions orsomething you're experiencing,
right?
So like what's happening inyour dream doesn't make sense,
but how it makes you feel mightmake all the sense.

(01:07:48):
So let's talk about that.
And it's so funny because Ifeel like you and your husband
got two perspectives of the samething, him being in a Home
Depot, which is like this veryhuman veil that was put over
like a very spiritual experienceuh that you were expecting you
were like, I don't know,mainlining with the actual
spiritual spiritual experience.
That's so funny to me.
Like I that's a rad story.

Rosa (01:08:08):
Yeah.
Well, and it does it alsoteaches you something about our
lens and the way our brain orour mind, our sense of mind uh
constructs the the kind oftheater of the dream in a way.
Because it's like all of theset pieces in it are just ways
to help our brain interpret theactual information, right?

(01:08:28):
Uh, but then naturally it'sgoing to be different for
everyone.
That's why I kind of I feel alittle funny.
Like I love Jungian psychology,but the dream interpretation is
a little sticky for me becauseI don't believe it's universal.
I think it's culturally sound,but only if you come from a
culture that that is from thesame, that uses the same

(01:08:49):
frameworks as European culture,right?
So it's like if you're notcoming from a European
background, the symbolism inyour dreams should be different.
You know what I'm saying?

Frank (01:08:58):
That's so funny.
I always talk about likeyoungin' stuff, but I haven't
studied an ounce of it.
But it's it's so uh uh relevantand even like surface level
conversations, uh you know whoto attribute certain concepts
to.
Yeah.
But I haven't looked at dreaminterpretation.

Rosa (01:09:12):
So he has this like a set symbolism for yes, and I would
just say, please just keep inmind European white guy.
Okay.
So seriously, well, and I gottatell you this about Bob Monroe,
too.
If you go read his books,please remember he is a product
of his time, and there are somethings he says that really don't
land with the way modern peopletalk about gender and and

(01:09:36):
things and race and culture.
And so it's really hardsometimes because we want to
editorialize or almost changethe way he said something.
Um but when it comes down toit, I mean, that's also true of
people we love, like Alan Wattsand Aldous Huxley, who are very
famous in this space.
It's like we got to rememberthese are a bunch of white
dudes, privileged white dudes.

(01:09:57):
Um, and because of that, uhthere are certain ways that they
look at these processes andlook at uh through the lens of
dominant culture.
And something I've beenexploring myself is actually
asked, you know, I got reallycalled out in this sense.
So I am of mixed heritage.
When I was a child, I did notlook like a little white girl,

(01:10:18):
though I'm very white passingnow.
So, in a sense, I got to liveon both sides of that coin as a
person who was like activelysilenced and oppressed and
underestimated, and live as aperson who was easily celebrated
and can get all theseachievements and stuff.
So it's like I've been on both,and my journey right now in my
spiritual education, I wouldsay, is seeking out uh these

(01:10:40):
marginalized voices and learningabout the practices from people
that are that are within theircultures of origin.
Um I need that perspective.
And because I'm an academic, Ihave always pursued the academic
take.
But guess what?
It's almost always white men.
And though I love white men andI'm married to a white man,
theirs is not the only validperspective.

(01:11:02):
So that's something I'm I'mlike in pursuit of, you know.

Frank (01:11:05):
So cool.
I had I had so many questionsfor you, but I don't think I'm
gonna have time.
Let me materialists suck.
Blah, blah, blah.
Um, it's funny.
You started talking aboutstuff.
I was like, oh, I want to talkto her about like the quantum
field and like electricalphenomenon and us interacting,
interacting like unknowinglywith each other's space, but
maybe for another time.

Rosa (01:11:24):
Yeah.
You sketched out a six-hourinterview.

Frank (01:11:28):
I did.
I wanted to ask you aboutmaterialists being inherently
pessimistic.
And all right.
How about this?
How about thank you so much forhanging out with us today?
And can you please telleverybody uh your plugs?
Tell tell everybody where theycan find you.

Rosa (01:11:47):
Oh, sure.
Okay.
So uh I'm very active onInstagram, so that's actually
how I'd recommend finding me.
My handle is it's rosahope.
Uh, I'm also like, I don'tknow, I'm kind of on Facebook,
but it's like they skew likeolder and more argumentative, so
I don't spend like a ton oftime on there.
Also, all my offerings are onshow at rosa-hope.com.

(01:12:08):
And if you want like a littlegift from me, you can go to
rosadhope.com slash bonus.
Uh, and I have a littlehypnosis journey for you that
you can download for free.
So feel free to reach out.
I love meeting people who havelike heard these cool
conversations and uh and wouldlove to stay in touch.

Frank (01:12:26):
Cool.

Lauren (01:12:27):
Thank you so much.
What a what a lovelyconversation.
You are you are awesome.

Rosa (01:12:33):
Thanks.
I appreciate well, like y'allare a hoot too.
This has been so nice.
Thanks for hanging out with me,though.
Like, this has been this hasbeen very cool, and I like you
guys.

Frank (01:12:41):
Oh, I like you.
Thank you for listening.
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