August 21, 2025 • 62 mins
In this deeply moving conversation, we're joined by our listener WiSH, who shares their evolution from a Baptist upbringing to discovering authentic spiritual connection through their queer identity.
Raised by a single mother and grandmother in a household with both nurturing feminine energy and strong masculine drive, Wish always sensed energies intensely. As an empath navigating religious spaces that condemned their emerging queerness, they faced the painful contradiction of feeling God's presence while being told they weren't enough. College became their spiritual laboratory—a place to explore astrology, meet others with psychic abilities, and eventually have direct spiritual experiences that cracked open their perception.
What makes this conversation particularly valuable is Wish's honest portrayal of finding purpose through listening to their intuition. Their story beautifully illustrates how spirituality, gender, and healing are interwoven in ways Western culture often fails to recognize.
Whether you're questioning your spiritual inheritance or seeking to understand how grief can transform your perception, Wish's journey offers a refreshing perspective on building a sustainable spiritual practice that embraces both struggle and wonder.
Clairvoyaging is now a fiscally sponsored project of Fractured Atlas, a 501(c)(3) charity, so any donations are now tax deductible. If you’d like to support our projects that aim to foster understanding for diverse spiritual belief systems, visit www.clairvoyaging.com/support.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Lauren (00:08):
William, also known as Wish, thank you for joining us
on this special episode, thislistener episode.
We're happy to have you with us.
So you told us a little bitabout your backstory through
email, but can you, can you tellus what's your story?
What you're going throughlately.
WiSH (00:29):
Yeah, this is a.
Uh, how do I begin?
I actually wrote this down so Icould have like have more of a
story, but, great, I didn'twrite down how to introduce it.
Write down how to introduce it.
(00:52):
Um, well, I can start with.
I am a 27 year old, ummidwestern human being just
moving through life.
Um, I feel like my story isn'tlike very special, but it's
uniquely mine and it's special,thank you.
Um, it just feels.
I feel like my journey throughspirituality has been kind of um
(01:14):
, what do I say?
It feels like magically mundane, if that makes sense.
You know, I got to, life ingeneral has always been like
magical for me, but I haven'talways like recognized it as
that.
Um, yeah, especially like as akid.
(01:37):
Um, growing up I've always kindof been like quiet, shy,
sensitive um, and my mom wouldalways say that I was like the
sweetest kid.
Um, and I feel like that likethat for me when I hear that I'm
like okay, so I've always beenlike a sensitive person.
Um, like in like energy ingeneral.
(02:01):
It's been like a sensitivebeing just trying to like bring
like peace and joy everywherearound me.
I was always like the one thattried to make people laugh.
I was very like I keep sayingsensitive, but like that's a
(02:22):
good word for it To likenegative energy, negative people
around me.
Um, and I feel like myupbringing, like when I look
back now it all makes sense.
Um, yeah, I'm so sorry.
I'm kind of stumped on what toeven say.
Lauren (02:39):
Oh, no, you're good, no, you're fine yeah.
WiSH (02:42):
Okay, thank y'all.
Y'all are so supportive.
You're good.
No, you're fine, yeah okay,thank y'all.
Lauren (02:47):
Y'all are so supportive in regards you have a.
You really do have like a great, like warm, sweet energy to you
.
WiSH (02:54):
So your mom is right thank you, yeah, um, yeah, with.
I kind of.
I grew up with my mom and mygrandma, so I got a lot of
especially for my mom a lot ofmaternal nurturing energy.
Both her and my grandma werego-getters.
My mom was a single mom raisingtwo kids, and she worked to
(03:19):
sustain our whole household.
Lauren (03:21):
Yeah, amazing.
WiSH (03:22):
Yeah, I'm like, how did you have two kids work all the
time, buy a house like that?
I'm in now.
Um, so, both her and my grandma, who was like who is, um, she
lives here now with me.
She was like part of like theEast St Louis city board, um,
yeah, and she would, from whatI'm'm hearing, like she would do
(03:46):
most of like the work, like alot of people kind of like play
around, but she was always thereto work, do the thing.
So I would say like she reallybuilds up a great foundation for
like all her kids and all hergrandkids.
Um, yeah, we're still likethriving off of that.
So I say I'll say that therewas like a beautiful mix of like
(04:06):
masculine and feminine energylike that I was growing up with,
even though I was mainly aroundfeminine energies, um, feminine
people yeah yeah, on my dad'sside it was.
I would go visit him every oncein a while, um, I'm like that's
like that's a little bit ofmasculinity I got, but our
(04:28):
relationship isn't that great.
He was always kind of like likea yelling, like maybe I'm like,
dare I say, a little bitverbally abusive, so I would
always kind of like just theenergy was off and I me like I
used to feel bad about feelinglike I couldn't be around him or
certain people that kind ofgave me that same thing, because
(04:51):
I would want to, like I wouldalways want to show up in love,
and I would feel like I'm not, Iwasn't doing the right thing or
I wasn't being loving enough toaccept them, them, um, but I'm
just like now coming to termswith the idea that I don't need
(05:11):
to shrink myself or put myselfin situations that are not not
conducive to like me, notconducive to like building me up
, um, in order to please otherpeople.
Cause that was just kind oflike it felt like it was
crushing my spirit more and moreand more.
Lauren (05:25):
Yeah.
WiSH (05:28):
So kind of taking a step back and worked on myself more
and it is really it's reallybeen doing like some amazing
things, like there's really apower to like I've always heard
there's a power to like puttingyourself first and like doing
things you need to do foryourself, sure, but I'm like
realizing that now, like in myexperience, doing things you
need to do for yourself, sure,but I'm like realizing that now,
like in in my experience, andmy body and my life.
Lauren (05:51):
It's a big, it's a big deal.
So what kind of?
Frank (05:54):
things.
Are you assuming you're tappinginto a more authentic wish here
?
WiSH (06:00):
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, honestly, I really have a lot of
.
It really has been steppinginto my spirituality, um, and
really like giving myself thespace to.
I keep looking back because Ilive with my grandma, who is um
baptist all the way down to thebone and I was raised in the
baptist church.
I was actually the first babyto be dedicated by my pastor
(06:24):
back in um.
He was like it was his firstmonth back in 1997, um.
So I've always had like aconnection with my church on
that on like some levels.
But then on some other levelsit was kind of like I'm not
feeling everything that is beingsaid here.
Lauren (06:45):
Yeah.
WiSH (06:46):
Because, again, the energies, and I think this is
like part of like, this is likea big part of exploring and
understanding my own connectionwith spirit.
I know this is like somewhatcontroversial in some spaces
probably not here but I identifyas an empath and I like really
(07:08):
do like feel energies of spacesand I think that's part of like
cause I always have this driveto like want to like help people
, and sometimes it's too muchCause I want to like almost jump
into their skin and be like dothis, you know like their
emotions for them and do thisyou know like how their emotions
for them, and that's you knowlearning, learning about Yep,
(07:30):
you too, yeah, yeah, and I'mlearning that that's not.
Lauren (07:35):
It's not yours.
WiSH (07:36):
Not my yes, that period I was about to say that's not
helpful, that too.
But it's really yeah, at theend of the day it's not mine, um
.
But while I was at the church Iwould like hear one thing.
I would hear like god is love,god loves you.
But I would also like feelanother thing, especially when,
like my pastor's, like why?
Why do I feel like I'm likedoxing people, I'm not saying
(07:58):
any names.
I'm like looking left and right, um, they can't hear you right
now, you're good.
A lot of what he would preachwould be kind of like rhetoric
to scare people intoChristianity.
Like you're not this enough,you're not that enough.
(08:19):
If you don't have God or Jesusin your life in this certain way
, if you're not reading theBible, if you're going out, you
know all all the things, ifyou're doing this kind of
sinning, then it's not enough.
And that was mainly.
That was just week to week toweek to week.
That was like the basis ofevery sermon and like after 18
years of going like every Sundaystraight, I was like I don't
(08:45):
know about this, so, but after aweek to week to week, of going
every sunday straight, likehearing this over and over again
, I had a lot of like fear ofdoing anything about it, like I
didn't want to be there, but Iwas like if I'm not here, I'm
going to hell, and I don't wantto go to hell.
(09:06):
And then a big part of it too islike my queerness and my
sexuality, like that.
I think that was, um, thebiggest thing that made me have
to reckon with with mydifferences with the church,
because, um, I know somechurches are more accepting, but
mine wasn't one of those.
There weren't women allowed umto be pastors there or even
(09:30):
stand in like the pulpit wherethe pastor preaches.
They like to stand aside, yeah.
So I was like, yeah, um, that'show they felt about gender in
general.
So, like with queer stuff, itnot a, it was like a non-starter
.
Lauren (09:46):
Yeah.
WiSH (09:47):
Yeah.
So I like was like growing upkind of breaking through this a
little bit.
In high school I got to likeexplore a little bit more, um, I
like stepped out and explore myqueerness a little bit.
Um and and uh with that.
It just felt like this likeexpansion within me to like just
(10:10):
explore more, like let meexplore different spiritualities
, let me explore like how Iconnect to um, how I can connect
to God in a different way,cause that was never like part
of the question for me.
I've always been um able to feelGod.
I've always felt like I've likegotten guidance from something
(10:34):
higher than myself, um, so Ididn't feel like God was the
issue, but just the way I wasrelating to God was the issue,
cause I'm like I don't think Godwould be upset with me being
queer, cause I find God andqueerness like a lot like with
(10:54):
my sexuality and gender, like Ithink that with both of those
factors, they're both likeintrinsically tied with
spirituality to me.
Um, especially when you likethink of like outside of
colonialism um, my ancestors aremainly from Africa and other
(11:19):
places I'm not sure all theplaces but even like outside of
like colonialism in general,when you like think of like
pre-colonial Europeans andpre-colonial like everywhere
Americans.
All over the place there'sdifferent gender expressions and
a lot of those expressions aretied to connections with source,
(11:41):
with God, with the spirit world, with source with God, with the
spirit world.
A lot of people who, I guess,for an example, I'm seeing here
right now, is like the twospirit people of First Nations.
Yeah yeah, like having twospirits in them.
There's a link to, but actuallyI'm not even fully sure, so I'm
(12:06):
not going to use that exampleanymore.
I'm like, I'm not too strikethat.
Let's write that um, but inother examples especially,
there's a, there's like a groupof people in indonesia that have
five genders and, um, it's likewhat we would be equivalent to
cis males, cis females, transmen, trans women, and then the
(12:29):
fifth gender is like a mix ofboth, and those are usually the
people who are like the shamans.
Frank (12:36):
Yeah, I've heard of this.
Yeah, listen, maybe I'm gettingthe country wrong.
I was thinking people fromThailand have that too.
Lauren (12:47):
Oh yeah, but yeah it's all over the place.
Frank (12:49):
Yeah, only western culture.
Do we say this or that?
WiSH (12:52):
yeah, and I think so many people like it's interesting
because we don't have therecords of them um of like the
history, pre-colonialism and alot of these spaces, but like
how many people were like genderambiguous and also like
(13:13):
connecting with different realms.
Right, there's a book that Ihave and it was basically
talking about there's a tribe inAfrica I can't fully remember,
but I'll let you know once we'redone with this about how people
who are in between male andfemale also have a foot in
between the spiritual world.
(13:34):
So all of it I don't know, allof it comes together and I feel
like that's how I see life aslike all of these things
together, which is why I startedwith what I did and kind of
like I'm coming into like thespirit of it all, because I
think spirit, to me spirit islike the like amniotic fluid of
(13:58):
all these different everythingelse, like there's everything
about, like how we conceptualizeourselves.
Um, like I think of it as Ithink maybe a better word is
like the cytoplasm I'm trying tothink of, even like different
structures.
But, like you know, like spiritis like it's the thing, it's
like the fluid that we're all in, that we like that binds us
(14:21):
together and allows, likegateways and passages come to
each other.
Lauren (14:25):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, everything.
WiSH (14:29):
Yeah.
Lauren (14:30):
Yeah.
WiSH (14:30):
Everything.
Yeah, yeah, um, that's kind ofhow I guess that's like the
foundation of like, of how Ilike look at all of this.
Um but more specifics um of howlike I specifically connect to
(14:51):
spirit.
I really didn't feel much oflike anything, any specific
connection um, other than justlike vibes.
When I was going to churchpraying, like it felt like a
direct line was going from me togod at the top of my head.
Lauren (15:03):
Yeah.
Frank (15:03):
Oh, very specific yeah.
WiSH (15:06):
And it was like, yeah, and I still do that to this day
when I'm praying or talking tomy cause.
I've moved away from likepraying to Christian guys so
much into connecting with myancestors and spirit guides and,
yeah, connecting with god aswell.
But, like everybody, you know,like can I get everybody
(15:30):
together because at some point,like it's all just one spirit,
um, yeah.
So yeah, I started likeexploring a little bit like out
of christianity in um highschool, like when I got into
astrology, love, astrology down,yeah, and felt really like
(15:52):
resonant with that.
But I was like it's just burn,like this, is that satan stuff?
Right, yeah?
Lauren (16:00):
yeah, yeah it's like, ingrained in your, in your, in
your brain.
Yes, you have to undo so muchof the like belief system that
you, what you were like,hammered, yeah into yeah, yeah,
and it really felt like it was abelief system of like
separation.
WiSH (16:22):
That's like the biggest thing like and I'm still working
on that to this day like, yeah,removing the separation, um,
yeah, because I don't know, like, if you look at it a certain
way, like everything can flowinto each other, everything
makes sense.
I'm like looking at all thesedifferent religions and I'm like
, yeah, that makes sense.
Yeah, I see where that goes in.
(16:44):
Yeah, yeah, it feels like alllike different roads to like the
same, the same thing that we'relike looking for.
Yeah, yeah, I got intoastrology a little bit but like
I kind of like left it out thereuntil college, when I moved
away, and that's when I was ableto like it was field day, I was
(17:05):
like I can do whatever I wantyeah where'd you move to?
I moved to.
It was still in Illinois, butit was like this small town,
charleston, illinois.
Okay, it used to be in sundowntown, so there's that.
But the community at the school, which I guess like is that
(17:26):
like almost like any school,like any public school, because
there's a lot of like differentpeople coming in.
A lot of people from Chicagocame down there, so the
community of the school reallylike had enough space for me to
like explore so many differentthings.
I explored, yeah, I explored mygender, um for the first time
(17:46):
there, um score sexuality more,um took like queer theories
classes, um, I was a sociologymajor, so this might be like a
little bit inside of how, whyI'm like, why I think like this.
Yeah, because I see like I'mlooking at different like social
strata kind of things.
Yeah, yeah, so, like I justtook that time to explore so
(18:14):
many different things, exploremyself a little bit more.
And I had a friend who told methat like we're on a walk one
night and she told me that likejust randomly that she walk one
night, and she told me that,like just randomly that, um, she
was born with her third eyeopen and like she's from like a
spiritual, like witchy family,yeah, one talk.
(18:34):
I was like that's a.
Frank (18:37):
That's quite the icebreaker.
WiSH (18:38):
Yeah, by the way like three months into our friendship
, like actually actually let metell you.
And then she was like yeah,like my mom and grandma have
disability and they like didwork to close my eye because I
was saying too many things whenI was a baby, but now, like I
(19:01):
practiced, and while we're onthe walk, she's like, yeah, a
spirit behind us and I was likelike my whole world was shaking.
yeah, that's amazing, yeahbecause it's all stuff that I
was like, oh like, kind of likeI feel like I was peeking
through the blinds and likereading the internet, but like
to have this was like a fulllike, like I was smacked in the
(19:24):
face with like like getting to,like not experience it firsthand
, I guess, but like be withsomebody who's experiencing it
firsthand and their journey withit.
So, yeah, she was like, yeah,the spirit is behind us.
It has like a, it's like askinny body but like the head of
a turtle, and I would like tofeel like I and I would like
just be like I was like this isso crazy.
(19:45):
Like okay, not a human, okay,work, I am now aware that
non-human spirits are here and Iwould keep turning around and
she's like stop, you're scaringit.
I'm like, let me get home.
I was scared, but likeintrigued, yeah.
(20:07):
So yeah, that's like really likewhen the door opened wide, like
for me, that's when I was likeI'm all in, like let me explore
more, let me feel into myselfmore.
I think like certain ways thatI grew up like emotionally
stunted me.
So that's been a.
That's been like what I've beenworking on from that point on
(20:30):
To unlock emotional closure thatalso closes off my connection
with spirit and with perception,with know, with my spiritual
gifts.
Yeah, yeah, because I used tolike not be able to cry at all.
(20:51):
Now I can like do a little,like like one tear maybe, which
is a lot better than like before, and I'll like get more
emotional now, but I used tolike that used to be like
completely closed off to mereally yeah, even as an empath.
Lauren (21:09):
How did you process emotions?
Frank (21:14):
I don't know emotions.
WiSH (21:16):
For me it would yeah it was all stomach, I would like
feel a lot of like, like I feelbad.
I would get like anger.
It was more available, and Ithink there's like a masculine
thing too, yeah, um, like angerwas more available to me.
Um, like feeling it secondarily, versus like the like boohoo.
(21:41):
You know what I say?
Like that, no, I love theboohoo, um, but like it would
feel that wasn't available to meand it's still like it's a
little bit hard.
But when I'm like sitting in mybody more, I'll be able to like
channel, instead of like goinginto like the frustration, I'll
be able to like wait what am Iactually feeling and then like
(22:02):
channel it into the emotionsthat like are there, which is
usually like some kind of likesadness or like feeling, feeling
less than and like.
That's the first point, versuslike turning that into like.
Now I'm mad at XYZ because oflike what's, yeah, what's going
on inside of me right yeah, yeah, that's a journey that's so
(22:25):
insightful too.
What's going on inside of me,right, yeah?
Frank (22:27):
That's a journey that's so insightful too.
WiSH (22:29):
Yeah, thank you.
Actually, it goes a little bitfurther in my story.
I'm trying to be linear.
I'm not a linear thinker,though I live with one Word.
This guy is the linear, I'm nota linear thinker, though.
Lauren (22:44):
I live with one word this guy is the linear thinker
and I'm like, oh, and thenthere's this, and then, oh wait,
I forgot to tell you like 10years before that he's like I'm
trying to follow you.
WiSH (23:02):
I wrote this down, but I'm not even looking at my paper so
far, so good.
Lauren (23:09):
It feels good okay with you all the way, thank you.
WiSH (23:13):
I need the validation.
I appreciate it.
But yeah, I think in collegeafter that I started getting
into stuff like numerology,human design, um, got into it,
like got into spirituality,intellectually, but I still
wasn't like feeling things.
I was kind of like I was like Iwant to feel these things.
(23:34):
I want to like have theseabilities.
I've always been like obsessedwith like superheroes and
superpowers too, so like readingabout this, I felt like I was
like going Super Saiyan orsomething.
Yeah, I'm like I want to feelthis.
Yeah, people like Raven fromTeen Titans, raven's- so cool
(23:59):
More in Super.
Frank (23:59):
Saiyan as a Dragon Ball Z reference.
Lauren (24:01):
I didn't get that one.
You know, when you see, likeI'm sure you've seen little
clips of Dragon Ball Z reference.
Frank (24:05):
Okay, I didn't get that one, Sorry.
You know, when you see like I'msure you've seen little clips
of Dragon Ball Z, when a dude'sgoing like this, he's like
catching fire.
Lauren (24:10):
Yes.
Frank (24:10):
That's.
WiSH (24:11):
Super Saiyan.
Frank (24:12):
And then, his hair turns blonde.
WiSH (24:13):
Yeah, yeah, okay.
We're all just waiting for ourhair to turn blonde.
Got it, yeah.
And to around us.
Yeah, that's what I was um, butyeah, I was like okay, so
spiritual abilities?
are like the closest I can getto super superpowers, yeah, yeah
, like diving in there.
(24:34):
Um, so I came in with like a,like a agenda and like thinking
about it.
Thinking about it, thinkingabout it um, I didn't really
realize that feeling into it waslike just as important, if not
more important, um, until Iguess I had to.
So after, after college, I waskind of feeling like, um, I fell
(25:00):
into like a depression becauseI went to school trying to like
accommodate as best as I could,to like what I felt like I had
to do in society, like how do Isay?
Um, I feel like I grew upfeeling like I needed to be in
STEM or like you know somethinglike make money, basically.
(25:25):
So I felt like I had to makemoney, prove to be a good heir
to like my grandma's amazinglegacy of like working the house
down, like she really like EastSt Louis.
She had a huge impact on thewhole city.
So I'm like, how am I going tolive to that?
(25:46):
I was like, actually, thatdoesn't bring me like any joy at
all.
And when I was like graduatingcollege, like towards the end of
college is when I started likeI feel like experiencing spirit
for the first time, mainlybecause I was doing psychedelics
, I was like, wow, oh yeah, thatreally does open some doors
(26:07):
there, yeah, but like I was likeconnecting with other people's
energies in a way where I hadn'tbefore.
I had this really like kind ofscary moment where I think,
while I was like taking shroomswith a few friends, I didn't
feel safe in the environment tobegin with, um, and it was just
(26:30):
like staticky, bigger in frontof me, they're like sat on the
bed with me and it was likeshaped like a man but like just
made of static, and I was justlike wow, like who are you
vibing, you know?
And then, like once, like I was, I reached out and once it
touched my hand, um, I likeimmediately felt sick, like I
(26:55):
was gonna throw up.
So, like I like I was like Ineed to get out of this house,
like that's the first thing thatcame to me.
Um, so I like tried to like godownstairs but like I need to
get out of this house, likethat's the first thing that came
to me, um, so I like tried tolike go downstairs, but like I
couldn't even really walk.
I was like laying on the, um,the, the railway, like sliding
my body down.
I was like, oh, totallyfreaking out, crying, laughing.
(27:17):
Then I was like I need to leave, I need to leave, and I kept
seeing this figure like to the,you know, to the left of me.
Everywhere I went I saw likethe static man to like the left
of me, um, until I like left thehouse, went back to my friend's
apartment, um, and like,eventually the figure left.
(27:42):
But after that point it waslike, kind of like it's more
like life-changing, like I feltlike a darkness came over me
that I didn't used to havebefore and still trying to
figure out like what that was,like what's, what's that story,
because there was more likedarkness too, and I think it was
all culminating in, like thissense of like childhood leaving,
(28:06):
like the innocence of life,kind of like leaving and going
into the adult world, and I wasjust not ready for that, not
ready to um, there's morepropositions for me to almost
sell my soul.
To put it like six, seven,eight, lay it straight, and I
(28:28):
like to give something of myselfthat I didn't want to give in
order to like, have a healthy,stable life, and I just didn't
want to enter the adult world inthe ways.
The only ways that I saw wereoptions.
So I just kind of like got intoa depression there that lasted
a few years.
(28:48):
I was still like seeing andexperiencing spirit in different
ways, getting like animalmessages and like just like kind
of a knowing, knowing, like, um, for example, there was an owl.
(29:11):
I was on a walk by myself on 1221 2021 and no, it was 12 21
2020.
Um, I think this was like a day.
Back then.
They were like this is the daythat we entered into the age of
aquarius.
Like the astrology people werelike.
They were like this is the daythat we enter into the age of
Aquarius.
The astrology people were goingnuts on this day.
So I was like let me justconnect with myself.
(29:32):
Let me go on this midnight walkaround my neighborhood and I
kept hearing like whoo, whoo,whoo, whoo.
I'm like okay, word, there's anowl around.
I love owls, um, but, like, asI walked like almost a mile, I
kept hearing the same like itwas.
I heard it like to the sameextent, like same volume,
(29:53):
everything.
And I was like, okay, like am Ibeing followed?
And as soon as I like had thatthought and looked up, I saw the
owl like fly above my head andland on a branch in front of me
and I'm like but then I justkept
walking and it kept following me, like I kept like seeing it now
that I was looking for it,seeing it and hearing it, until
(30:14):
I got like a highway and then itdidn't follow me across there
but I still kept hearing it.
Who at me?
Like I'm just personalizing, Idon't know what it was doing,
like logically, but it wasreally like coming with me
across this journey and this waslike during a specifically like
period of my life where I wasfeeling like a lot of darkness.
(30:38):
And it actually turned out thatI think because, looked it up
in mouth, owls are messengers,sometimes even harbingers of
death, um, but some kind oftransition, some kind of like
(31:02):
it's also they're soothing, um,so I felt was it was a month
from that owl encounter that mymom ended up passing away.
Lauren (31:11):
Oh my God, oh my gosh yeah.
WiSH (31:13):
It was really sudden.
She got sick in November andwas like in the hospital back
and forth, um, no one knew whatwas going on, and then
eventually the doctors found out, but it was too late.
So, yeah, it was as far as likepassings go.
It was really like hard on meand my family.
Lauren (31:36):
Yeah I'm so sorry, thank you yeah, thank you.
WiSH (31:39):
It like the emotions are coming up now and like my
masculine part of me was like,don't feel sad, but yeah, it's
still.
It like it really, um, itreally rocked my world.
Yeah, it really rocked my world, um, and it's so interesting
(32:05):
that it was literally a month itwas literally a month before
that that has had this owlencounter on like such a
synchronistic day yeah, yeahyeah, um it makes me think how
much harder, how much harder itwould have been.
Frank (32:21):
Obviously you had a hard time with your mom passing, but
you know to have that likemoment with had a hard time with
your mom passing, but you knowto have that like moment with
the owl to think back on and belike, oh, you know what, like
sure it might've been like a, awarning, but also like an
acknowledgement that you are notalone in any of this.
Yeah, yeah.
It's even bigger than all ofthis.
Yeah, I hope that it's a littlebit of comfort, you know.
WiSH (32:47):
Yeah, oh, I, yeah, I hope that a little bit of comfort.
You know, yeah, oh, Iappreciate that, because I
wasn't mad at al for a littlebit.
I've had to like I just want todo gloat in my face.
Lauren (32:52):
You know, yeah, yeah, yeah, but no, that's yeah and it
really you think about it thatway as being like supported and
like you know, looking back onwhat that message meant as far
as, like, like you said,transition or kind of, you know,
yeah, those messages from likeany signs, or they're just so
(33:19):
profound, yeah yeah, and thatone really was probably like the
most profound, probably mostprofound sign I've ever gotten
yeah, other than the day my mompassed, maybe Because after she
passed away I was feeling allthe emotions.
WiSH (33:38):
We got like a call from the hospital like that morning
and they're like y'all mightwant to come in.
So we immediately knew what wasgoing to happen.
She was scheduled for a surgery.
It was post-surgery.
They were like, yeah, I'm notdescribing this in any way,
(33:59):
emotions are really coming up inme trying to describe this.
They're like, yeah, there's notreally much we can do anymore.
So we all gathered, met her atthe hospital, said our goodbyes
and, right as we were leaving, Ijust felt like a crazy energy,
(34:31):
like a crazy energy and a deepknowing.
Like a deep knowing and like adeep sense of like brightness
and calm came over me, like itwas almost like.
It was almost like an alertnessto where I felt like my mom was
with me and it also felt likeshe was giving her life energy
(34:55):
to me so that not only I couldfeel comforted, but it also felt
like she was healing a lot ofthe darkness that I I was
feeling at that time and I hadbeen feeling up until then, like
I just it was like this momentof just like deep appreciation
of life joy.
I felt like I could see, likeyou know, I was saying, like I
(35:18):
have that golden cord that comesup.
I was seeing cords all aroundme.
It was like they're likeweaving around.
There's a baby that came out, um, right as mike, as we were
leaving from like my mom passing, and I was like I was able in
that moment to like appreciate,like new life is here, like it
was sunny and like 50 degrees onthat day.
(35:38):
I was like there's no betterday that like my mom could have
passed, because, like she gaveus like such a good, a beautiful
morning to walk out to, the sunwas shining and like rising
from the direction we're walkingto our cars, um, it just felt
like everything wassynchronistic and I was like
seeing like all the strings andconnections of life as if they
(36:01):
were like chords all around meand it's amazing yeah, it's so
beautiful that you were able tobe that like aware and present
in such, in such a grief momenttoo.
Yeah, thank you, thank you, um,I don't even like now you say
(36:22):
that I'm like I don't even know,I'm not aware of how I was even
able to do that.
Maybe it was part of me justbottoming out and just being
empty for something to come in,because I was like my grandma
and sister were probably annoyedbecause I was like everything's
so beautiful and they're likemy mom died, you know, and I'm
(36:45):
like yes, and and not to likediscredit, like any of that, you
know, but I was like I couldnot see the beauty of it too.
I was like, wow, it gave me anew lease on life, the everyday
step by step of it making itthrough.
But, um, that, that, um, Ithink that just changed my life
(37:12):
like I can't think of.
Now I have hope, like a deep, adeep, deep hope that I don't
think anything can really takeaway, and I use that hope to
like help like me rebuild andheal myself from, like, a lot of
(37:35):
, a lot of stuff, a lot of um,the lack of hope and lack of
like how do I say?
I don't know how to say it butlike I was still like, even
though I I had that burst, likeI still had to work on and heal
myself in a lot of differentways do you feel like it was
still?
it still felt like it took animmense amount of effort just to
get to a neutral place whereyou can, like, feel appreciation
(37:57):
yeah, yeah, yeah for sure,because it was like on one level
or in some place, I it's like ayeah, it was like I felt hope
for hope.
Yeah, yeah, like the full thingwasn't there yet, but I was
like there's something here, um.
So, yeah, for these past fewyears I've just been like really
(38:19):
like diving into that more,feeling into, like these
feelings, tapping into thatspace where I started to feel
like how do I say?
Honing into the energy that Ireceived on that day, tapping
(38:42):
into where I felt it in my body,following my intuition more.
There was a spiritual counselinggroup that I joined a month
after my mom passed, because onInstagram there was an interview
that the host of it did on arandom advertisement that I saw
(39:04):
and I was like I like his energy.
So then I found him um onInstagram and, like I messaged
him and he was opening up agroup of all queer trans,
identifying people um to jointogether and collect, um to like
(39:25):
learn how to embody more.
Yeah, it was kind of like aspirituality meets, like
trans-ness, and it's based it'scalled Tiresias, based on the
myth of Tiresias from Greekmythology, where Tiresias was a
(39:49):
man who, I believe, was punishedinto being turned into a woman
and he gained insights on beingboth a man and a woman, having
that experience, and he becamelike a philosopher or like a
wise person.
Frank (40:10):
I've never heard this story.
That's amazing.
WiSH (40:14):
I recommend it because I've never heard either before
this group, yeah, that's cool,yeah, and I think that's like
the premise of the group.
So what we did was like justpractice, embodiment, um, we
would like say phrases, um, likeI, um like what we wanted, like
I have a successful businessthat I love and feel embodied in
(40:40):
every single day, and we wouldlike say these phrases over and
over again and allow ourselvesto be heard and reflected on by
another person.
It was really intimate, likeone-on-one, like exchanges.
The other person would, um,just sit there and like stare
you in the eyes.
While you said these things,insecurities will come up, fears
(41:03):
will come up, um, everything,joy, rage, everything would come
up and be palpable.
And it was like an exercise forboth partners to use their own
abilities, use their empathy, topick up on what's being
(41:24):
conveyed and reflect that backin an honest way.
And it was good.
That really was the foundationof me like learning to embody
and like feel myself, feel myemotions, um, know where they're
coming from, where they'relocated in the body, um, and
(41:45):
yeah, like that was like thefirst step to like really
feeling my feelings about my mompassing and letting myself like
express like I like, like Isaid, I don't have an easy time
crying, but I remember one timeI was with some Tiresias friends
and we were just like breathingand I like hit this point of
(42:09):
like grieving.
I was outside like my neighborwas like in her house right
across the street and I like hitthis point of like grieving.
I was outside like my neighborwas like in her house right
across the street and I was justlike I don't even know what I
was doing.
I was like making heavingnoises, like just like out there
, yeah, like going through it.
Lauren (42:27):
Letting it all out.
WiSH (42:28):
Letting it out, yeah, in the ways that it needed to.
Like.
I feel embarrassed thinkingback on this and saying this,
but it was really like.
It was also really beautiful,just to like let myself feel and
express and like let it out inthe ways that it needed to come
out.
Lauren (42:45):
Yeah.
WiSH (42:45):
Yeah, yeah.
So that really, like thatreally helped a lot.
So then I decided to go back toschool.
I'm like I want to, like I'vealways had this desire to help
people and I've always had thisfeeling that I wasn't doing what
I was supposed to be doing.
(43:06):
And it kind of correlates withlike going to feeling not ready
to like be in the adult worldand like not grounded enough to
like face the challenges thatcome with that.
But, like, I always had thisknowing that I want to help
(43:28):
people in some capacity,especially, and probably mainly,
in a spiritual capacity.
So I started massage and I'mjumping ahead a little bit.
I started counseling.
I started going to school fortalk counseling.
I went to school for this Ishould know what it's called
(43:51):
Therapy of the speech varietyand I was like going through it.
It was great learning all thisstuff.
But when it came time to likelike get in the field and do the
work and like practice, I waslike really not feeling it and I
was like kind of going back andforth, back and forth.
(44:12):
I'm like why don't I want to dothis?
Like on paper it's exactly whatI want to do, but I think like
just the energy again of theschool, like the energy of, like
the program.
It wasn't what I wanted Like.
I wanted more hands-on, Iwanted more like of, like an
emotional connection, and thatis possible in therapy.
(44:33):
But I think there's a lot ofhoops that needs to be jumped
over.
While I was in school, I waseven just feeling out the class
and the teachers and what wasbeing taught.
It felt like people were morefocused on the material things
(44:53):
like insurance and um, what if aclient does xyz and like they
rub you the wrong way or youknow, like the, what we were,
how we were connecting, wasn'thow I like what, what I felt
like I wanted to do, you knowit's still so in Getting in the
logistics, but it's all still sobuilt into the existing system
(45:16):
that it seems like you're tryingto find a way out of.
Yeah, yes, exactly yes, itreally was that.
It was like, because I feellike what I want to actually do
is really not within any ofthese current modern systems
that are stemming fromcolonialism.
It's not, um, and I think, like, when you like really look at,
(45:40):
like what all this came from,not to get like crazy political,
but like so much of this stemsfrom.
So much of this stems fromslavery.
Like so much of this, so muchof how we move, how we operate,
how we even think, stems from,like, the concept of like having
(46:00):
someone to work and do like alot of the menial labor and, um,
rise up off of that.
Frank (46:14):
The structure of most companies, the structure of
society, I would argue, is builtoff of a master-slave system
and we're all down here fightingfor scraps, yes, and then they
pit us against each other.
But yeah, I can go into it.
WiSH (46:26):
You know, yeah, and then we're trying to become the next
r up, like it's all based onthat, and that's kind of how it
felt Like, um, I felt thosesimilar energies with my
counseling program, so like theday.
I was like laying in bed and Iwas like I'm really, I'm going
to do this.
Like finally gave myself.
(46:48):
I was like what if I didn'tlike what?
Like finally gave myself.
I was like what if I didn'tLike?
What if I stopped?
And like I felt like a wholerush over my body, like of this,
like idea and like allowance tostop, and I was like like I
felt so free.
Frank (47:02):
Isn't it wild when you let yourself be yourself?
Lauren (47:05):
Yeah, I just like, let go.
It is Like oh my gosh, I didn'teven know it was possible.
WiSH (47:11):
Yeah, yeah.
But yeah, literally like y'all.
Yeah, you hear me in the senseof like trying to find a space
while not working in that samelike system.
Yeah, not working, yeah Notworking in a way that um, um, in
(47:35):
a way that is so eating, so Iallow myself to quit.
And I felt amazing and theneventually, like, with that
space, I found actually one ofmy mentors who's becoming like a
(47:55):
really lovely and valuablespiritual mentor to me.
She also does my locks, damnAmazing.
Her husband actually went tothis school for massage therapy
called the Healing Arts Centerand I was like, excuse me, the
(48:20):
Healing Arts Center, um, what dothey do?
And I would like to be part ofthat.
Yeah, and it was a massageschool, but it's really like
it's actually I think it's thefirst massage school in the St
Louis area, um, longest running,and they specifically
specialize.
I'm not sure about like mostmassage schools, but this one
specifically like specializesand it's like grounded in um,
(48:41):
energy work and energy healing.
Amazing, yeah, tying it alltogether, um, and I'm like that
sounds like exactly what I wantto do.
So I went to, I like signed upfor everything just went so
smoothly.
I signed up like to talk tosomebody and they're like join,
(49:01):
and I'm like, oh, this seems sosweet, but they're like you can
come to a massage or a snowshoesnight to see what you feel.
So I went to that with myfriend and I was like, oh yeah,
like this is great.
We learned like basic, liketechniques of rocking, um, but
then like basically physicaltechniques of rocking, like
(49:23):
connecting with the person, um,and we also learned like how to
like energetically, like cleanseourselves and move energy off
of people as well.
They also teach Reiki, which Iknow you are.
Are you a master now?
I haven't caught up with you,lauren.
Lauren (49:40):
I am yeah.
Frank (49:43):
I call her Sensei.
Lauren (49:45):
I just told Frank yesterday.
I'm like I think it's time foryou to be attuned as a Reiki
master.
Frank (49:51):
And I said but then I can't call you sensei anymore,
I'll always call you sensei,it's fine we can both be senseis
but I'm forever your sensei.
Lauren (50:00):
Yes, yeah so did you learn?
WiSH (50:07):
Reiki too not yet, but that is part of the program.
We can attune to level one andthen we can come back to level
two and level three, so Idefinitely plan on doing that.
Yeah, I'm so excited about thatand all the energy healing in
general and, yeah, just rightnow I feel like this is the
(50:31):
happiest I've been, maybe inlife, and also specifically in
like a school setting.
I love my cohort.
We all like connect in such away that, even like the
administrators are like y'allare like there's something going
on here Like word.
(50:52):
This is a group of genuinepeople.
Yeah, um, yeah, like I used tobe scared of people, but like
now I'm like there's so muchlove in the world, like it's
there yeah you just got to findit, and find it in yourself
first, I think.
Frank (51:11):
Yeah, it's there.
And also, like everybody has itand even if they don't have it,
all the time you can, you canpull it out of people and give
them good, good moments likethat I've noticed.
Lauren (51:21):
Yeah, that's so real Good for you for paying
attention to what felt likemisaligned and finding, as soon
as you were saying like talkingabout being in therapy class,
and I was thinking that's notthe right like, when you were
(51:42):
like this isn't the right thing,I was like it's going to be
energy healing, it's going to beReiki, like, and if wish is not
doing that, then I'm going tosuggest it Fantastic.
WiSH (51:56):
You have a good read on me .
Lauren (51:59):
I'm working on my, on my intuitive knowing what comes in
.
Frank (52:04):
Um, was there more to your story?
I don't want to stop.
WiSH (52:07):
That was it.
Thank y'all for going along forthat ride.
Frank (52:11):
Thank you for bringing us along with you.
It's a beautiful it.
Thank y'all for going along forthat ride.
Thank you for bringing us alongwith you.
Lauren (52:13):
It's a beautiful journey .
Thank you for sharing.
Frank (52:15):
There's something I wanted to point out real quick.
You opened up the story sayingthat like you're kind of living
a magically mundane life, butthat's, that's an incredible,
meaningful story.
And while it might not be oneof those things where, like I
got in a car accident and had anNDE and like now I, you know,
like I don't know, playhopscotch with ghosts, you're
(52:35):
like what?
What your journey to me lookslike is that you are on a
personal mission to find what Iwould call like spiritual and
emotional sustainability tobuild a new future, and like
it's, it's you, you should writethat down.
(52:58):
You kind of hit me as like, a,like a I don't want to abuse the
word, like shaman, but somekind of like future thought
leader in that.
In that sense, Cause you alsocarry, even though I know you
may have struggled with it inyour early years, you do carry.
Even though I know you, you mayhave struggled with it in your
early years, you, you do carrylike a confidence.
That like is really empoweringbecause you've managed to and
(53:18):
you're in the middle of ajourney of empowering yourself,
and I think there's somethingamazing to that.
WiSH (53:24):
Thank you.
Yeah, too much love.
Lauren (53:28):
I'm excited to see where this goes for you.
Frank (53:31):
I mean even from like obviously your, your, your
mother passing was, was terrible, but you, like, you've come out
on the other end of that andit's still like a journey to get
through, like the grief, butthen also like just your story
walk alongside the grief, younever walk along, walk along the
grief, walk alongside thebeautiful, but also like, like
even in your journey to throughbeing a non-conforming
(53:54):
individual, like it's all partof building something new.
And that's like that's been mykind of my main takeaway from
your story.
I, for me, it's easy to distillbecause you had to tell me in
an hour, but you know that'swhat's coming through.
Those are the main points.
I'm like, oh man, wish did thisand wish did this, and wish is
building something new.
I think it's.
(54:16):
It's super cool and I don'tthink it's mundane at all yeah
thank you, yeah, it's, it's so.
WiSH (54:24):
I really appreciate like you're reflecting that.
Um, it's hard to like see yourlife from the outside.
Yeah, yeah, you know, and thisis actually like probably the
first time I've ever like toldthis story, cause it really it
feels.
It feels like it's coming tolike a point, like brought
(54:47):
well-rounded, like story, if youwill, right now, like this is
the point where I'm like whoa,if you will right now, this is
the point where I'm like whoa, Isee where and how all of this
got me to where I'm at now andwhy?
Frank (55:01):
Because you wouldn't be in this position if you hadn't
done all that, if you hadn't hadto overcome, or what did you
say?
Walk next to all of that.
Lauren (55:10):
Walk alongside your grief.
Frank (55:11):
Walk alongside your grief .
Lauren (55:12):
Walk alongside your grief yeah.
Frank (55:13):
She's better than me, she's sensei.
Thank you, sensei.
Lauren (55:20):
It's just, I've I've had , you know, 20 years of grief.
You never get through it orover it, it just grows.
You grow around it or you walkalongside it, or you know
something like that.
Yeah, it's not linear grief.
So, yeah, I wanted to ask you,though, like with your mom, do
(55:45):
you, is there a sign that youhave from her, Like, is there
like something that, like shesends you, Do you see owls?
Now she comes in my dreams,Amazing.
This is another point.
WiSH (55:59):
Dreams for me are like that's where me and Spirit Kiki
and that's where I get mymessages from them.
Lauren (56:09):
Yeah, and actually it's so funny, one of the first
nights before she passed.
WiSH (56:11):
Like that's where I get my messages from them.
Yeah, yeah, like.
And actually it's so funny thefirst, like one of the first
nights where she passed, I wassleeping in her bed and I had a
dream Um, I think it's likeliterally night one or night two
, like still on, like the threeday bereavement that work gives
you.
Frank (56:30):
Um, I hate it so much.
WiSH (56:34):
Yeah, okay, I was like I need more.
But I had a dream where mygrandma like every all my
family's at the house and mygrandma was lost and everyone's
like where's granny?
Where's granny?
Where's granny, um.
And then my mom came in, likeit came in the house like with
(56:55):
granny on her arm, um, and shesaid nothing.
It's like super, like solemn,um, and I was like embarrassed
and like kind of taking that outon her and also probably just
like taking out a lot of likeanger of her passing, like
directing that to her.
I felt bad about it when I was,when I I like woke up, but I
felt like it was just like itwas something that it was like
(57:16):
the anger of like the situationso fresh there.
But she came in Abandonment,yeah.
Lauren (57:21):
Yeah.
WiSH (57:22):
Yeah, but she said nothing .
She just like walked in andlike looked at me and like,
basically, like, if, like, whatwas communicated without words
was like um, you're her keepernow.
So, yeah, me and my grandma welive together.
Um, it's really, it's been meand her ever since and we take
(57:44):
care of each other.
Um, that's so sweet.
Yeah, yeah, I'm her keeper andI really like, I'm like I took
that role.
After that, like I, I, therewas no question about it.
I was like, yeah, like, becauseit used to be my mom and my
grandma, right, yeah, but yeah,now it's me.
Frank (58:04):
I mean, what a good person for even taking on that
role.
That's not an easy role all thetime yeah.
WiSH (58:13):
Yeah, that's not an easy role all the time, yeah, yeah,
it's been a journey.
It's taught me a lot of likehow to um compromise and respect
, like differences, um in a waythat, like before, I just was
like not dealing with them, I'dbe like I'm over here, but like
now, it's like it's so rewardingto be able to like like still
connect after you know, afterlike not always seeing eye to
(58:36):
eye, yeah, and like finding thatconnection in a yeah in a real
way again.
Frank (58:41):
Yeah something that I had to learn was that because I I
came from a very religiousbackground too and I would get
very mad and rage against it um,over the last like I don't know
decade or so, I've realizedthat like that existed, so that
I could exist and and carry onthe torch in a new, in a new way
(59:04):
.
Right, yeah, it shows you likereligion serves a purpose of,
like showing you the foundation,but like it is okay to walk
away from it and and the youknow, the hierarchical,
hierarchical, the hierarchical,uh, structure that they build
into religion is going to tryand stop you from doing that and
(59:25):
, like some of the people thatused to participate in those
traditional religions have thatingrained into them.
It's hard for them to let thatgo, but you're here to do,
you're here to let it go forthem, and that's like part of
what's one of those things.
It's one of those things, man,new, new world.
WiSH (59:46):
I am loving that I get to experience both of you all's
gifts head on.
Whoa, because I like Lauren,with your empathy, and just like
connecting to the emotions.
Frank, with like your knowingand like being able to like
these are both things that, likeI've been hearing with you all,
(01:00:07):
but experience is a whole otherthing.
Thank you both.
Frank (01:00:13):
Wish.
Thank you so much for spendingtime with us and telling us your
story.
I think it's incredible and Ithink you're incredible yeah
thank you.
WiSH (01:00:18):
I really like um.
I could probably speak for 20more minutes about just how
amazing y'all's podcast andy'all's energy um has for me and
I'm just so sure that it's forso many people.
You probably get messages aboutthis.
I feel like this is exactlywhat I needed at this moment,
(01:00:45):
and y'all just both so sweet andkind and encouraging.
Thank you.
Thank you for being in thisspace and doing this thing that
means so much it really doeswhen the camera turns off.
Frank (01:00:57):
I'm a monster again.
Thank you, for I'm glad my lineis working Well.
Do me a favor and continue togive us updates and if you have
any big revelations or anything,please come back on the show
and we'll chat more.
WiSH (01:01:09):
Yeah, word I would love to with your existing practice.
Frank (01:01:14):
Is there anything any like um links or places you want
to share that people can findyou?
WiSH (01:01:19):
I actually have an instagram, um, that is really
fresh and up and coming.
Um, it's called theintersectionality.
So I been doing um intuitivetarot and Oracle readings over
there.
Um, yeah, and I'm planning onlike putting up like intuition,
(01:01:40):
like test two it's, it's in theworks, awesome.
Lauren (01:01:44):
Yay, that's cool.
Frank (01:01:46):
Thank you so much again.
Thank you, thank you Much loveto y'all, much love.
WiSH (01:01:50):
We'll talk to you soon.
William, also known as Wish, thank you for joining us
on this special episode, thislistener episode.
We're happy to have you with us.
So you told us a little bitabout your backstory through
email, but can you, can you tellus what's your story?
What you're going throughlately.
WiSH (00:29):
Yeah, this is a.
Uh, how do I begin?
I actually wrote this down so Icould have like have more of a
story, but, great, I didn'twrite down how to introduce it.
Write down how to introduce it.
(00:52):
Um, well, I can start with.
I am a 27 year old, ummidwestern human being just
moving through life.
Um, I feel like my story isn'tlike very special, but it's
uniquely mine and it's special,thank you.
Um, it just feels.
I feel like my journey throughspirituality has been kind of um
(01:14):
, what do I say?
It feels like magically mundane, if that makes sense.
You know, I got to, life ingeneral has always been like
magical for me, but I haven'talways like recognized it as
that.
Um, yeah, especially like as akid.
(01:37):
Um, growing up I've always kindof been like quiet, shy,
sensitive um, and my mom wouldalways say that I was like the
sweetest kid.
Um, and I feel like that likethat for me when I hear that I'm
like okay, so I've always beenlike a sensitive person.
Um, like in like energy ingeneral.
(02:01):
It's been like a sensitivebeing just trying to like bring
like peace and joy everywherearound me.
I was always like the one thattried to make people laugh.
I was very like I keep sayingsensitive, but like that's a
(02:22):
good word for it To likenegative energy, negative people
around me.
Um, and I feel like myupbringing, like when I look
back now it all makes sense.
Um, yeah, I'm so sorry.
I'm kind of stumped on what toeven say.
Lauren (02:39):
Oh, no, you're good, no, you're fine yeah.
WiSH (02:42):
Okay, thank y'all.
Y'all are so supportive.
You're good.
No, you're fine, yeah okay,thank y'all.
Lauren (02:47):
Y'all are so supportive in regards you have a.
You really do have like a great, like warm, sweet energy to you
.
WiSH (02:54):
So your mom is right thank you, yeah, um, yeah, with.
I kind of.
I grew up with my mom and mygrandma, so I got a lot of
especially for my mom a lot ofmaternal nurturing energy.
Both her and my grandma werego-getters.
My mom was a single mom raisingtwo kids, and she worked to
(03:19):
sustain our whole household.
Lauren (03:21):
Yeah, amazing.
WiSH (03:22):
Yeah, I'm like, how did you have two kids work all the
time, buy a house like that?
I'm in now.
Um, so, both her and my grandma, who was like who is, um, she
lives here now with me.
She was like part of like theEast St Louis city board, um,
yeah, and she would, from whatI'm'm hearing, like she would do
(03:46):
most of like the work, like alot of people kind of like play
around, but she was always thereto work, do the thing.
So I would say like she reallybuilds up a great foundation for
like all her kids and all hergrandkids.
Um, yeah, we're still likethriving off of that.
So I say I'll say that therewas like a beautiful mix of like
(04:06):
masculine and feminine energylike that I was growing up with,
even though I was mainly aroundfeminine energies, um, feminine
people yeah yeah, on my dad'sside it was.
I would go visit him every oncein a while, um, I'm like that's
like that's a little bit ofmasculinity I got, but our
(04:28):
relationship isn't that great.
He was always kind of like likea yelling, like maybe I'm like,
dare I say, a little bitverbally abusive, so I would
always kind of like just theenergy was off and I me like I
used to feel bad about feelinglike I couldn't be around him or
certain people that kind ofgave me that same thing, because
(04:51):
I would want to, like I wouldalways want to show up in love,
and I would feel like I'm not, Iwasn't doing the right thing or
I wasn't being loving enough toaccept them, them, um, but I'm
just like now coming to termswith the idea that I don't need
(05:11):
to shrink myself or put myselfin situations that are not not
conducive to like me, notconducive to like building me up
, um, in order to please otherpeople.
Cause that was just kind oflike it felt like it was
crushing my spirit more and moreand more.
Lauren (05:25):
Yeah.
WiSH (05:28):
So kind of taking a step back and worked on myself more
and it is really it's reallybeen doing like some amazing
things, like there's really apower to like I've always heard
there's a power to like puttingyourself first and like doing
things you need to do foryourself, sure, but I'm like
realizing that now, like in myexperience, doing things you
need to do for yourself, sure,but I'm like realizing that now,
like in in my experience, andmy body and my life.
Lauren (05:51):
It's a big, it's a big deal.
So what kind of?
Frank (05:54):
things.
Are you assuming you're tappinginto a more authentic wish here
?
WiSH (06:00):
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, honestly, I really have a lot of
.
It really has been steppinginto my spirituality, um, and
really like giving myself thespace to.
I keep looking back because Ilive with my grandma, who is um
baptist all the way down to thebone and I was raised in the
baptist church.
I was actually the first babyto be dedicated by my pastor
(06:24):
back in um.
He was like it was his firstmonth back in 1997, um.
So I've always had like aconnection with my church on
that on like some levels.
But then on some other levelsit was kind of like I'm not
feeling everything that is beingsaid here.
Lauren (06:45):
Yeah.
WiSH (06:46):
Because, again, the energies, and I think this is
like part of like, this is likea big part of exploring and
understanding my own connectionwith spirit.
I know this is like somewhatcontroversial in some spaces
probably not here but I identifyas an empath and I like really
(07:08):
do like feel energies of spacesand I think that's part of like
cause I always have this driveto like want to like help people
, and sometimes it's too muchCause I want to like almost jump
into their skin and be like dothis, you know like their
emotions for them and do thisyou know like how their emotions
for them, and that's you knowlearning, learning about Yep,
(07:30):
you too, yeah, yeah, and I'mlearning that that's not.
Lauren (07:35):
It's not yours.
WiSH (07:36):
Not my yes, that period I was about to say that's not
helpful, that too.
But it's really yeah, at theend of the day it's not mine, um
.
But while I was at the church Iwould like hear one thing.
I would hear like god is love,god loves you.
But I would also like feelanother thing, especially when,
like my pastor's, like why?
Why do I feel like I'm likedoxing people, I'm not saying
(07:58):
any names.
I'm like looking left and right, um, they can't hear you right
now, you're good.
A lot of what he would preachwould be kind of like rhetoric
to scare people intoChristianity.
Like you're not this enough,you're not that enough.
(08:19):
If you don't have God or Jesusin your life in this certain way
, if you're not reading theBible, if you're going out, you
know all all the things, ifyou're doing this kind of
sinning, then it's not enough.
And that was mainly.
That was just week to week toweek to week.
That was like the basis ofevery sermon and like after 18
years of going like every Sundaystraight, I was like I don't
(08:45):
know about this, so, but after aweek to week to week, of going
every sunday straight, likehearing this over and over again
, I had a lot of like fear ofdoing anything about it, like I
didn't want to be there, but Iwas like if I'm not here, I'm
going to hell, and I don't wantto go to hell.
(09:06):
And then a big part of it too islike my queerness and my
sexuality, like that.
I think that was, um, thebiggest thing that made me have
to reckon with with mydifferences with the church,
because, um, I know somechurches are more accepting, but
mine wasn't one of those.
There weren't women allowed umto be pastors there or even
(09:30):
stand in like the pulpit wherethe pastor preaches.
They like to stand aside, yeah.
So I was like, yeah, um, that'show they felt about gender in
general.
So, like with queer stuff, itnot a, it was like a non-starter
.
Lauren (09:46):
Yeah.
WiSH (09:47):
Yeah.
So I like was like growing upkind of breaking through this a
little bit.
In high school I got to likeexplore a little bit more, um, I
like stepped out and explore myqueerness a little bit.
Um and and uh with that.
It just felt like this likeexpansion within me to like just
(10:10):
explore more, like let meexplore different spiritualities
, let me explore like how Iconnect to um, how I can connect
to God in a different way,cause that was never like part
of the question for me.
I've always been um able to feelGod.
I've always felt like I've likegotten guidance from something
(10:34):
higher than myself, um, so Ididn't feel like God was the
issue, but just the way I wasrelating to God was the issue,
cause I'm like I don't think Godwould be upset with me being
queer, cause I find God andqueerness like a lot like with
(10:54):
my sexuality and gender, like Ithink that with both of those
factors, they're both likeintrinsically tied with
spirituality to me.
Um, especially when you likethink of like outside of
colonialism um, my ancestors aremainly from Africa and other
(11:19):
places I'm not sure all theplaces but even like outside of
like colonialism in general,when you like think of like
pre-colonial Europeans andpre-colonial like everywhere
Americans.
All over the place there'sdifferent gender expressions and
a lot of those expressions aretied to connections with source,
(11:41):
with God, with the spirit world, with source with God, with the
spirit world.
A lot of people who, I guess,for an example, I'm seeing here
right now, is like the twospirit people of First Nations.
Yeah yeah, like having twospirits in them.
There's a link to, but actuallyI'm not even fully sure, so I'm
(12:06):
not going to use that exampleanymore.
I'm like, I'm not too strikethat.
Let's write that um, but inother examples especially,
there's a, there's like a groupof people in indonesia that have
five genders and, um, it's likewhat we would be equivalent to
cis males, cis females, transmen, trans women, and then the
(12:29):
fifth gender is like a mix ofboth, and those are usually the
people who are like the shamans.
Frank (12:36):
Yeah, I've heard of this.
Yeah, listen, maybe I'm gettingthe country wrong.
I was thinking people fromThailand have that too.
Lauren (12:47):
Oh yeah, but yeah it's all over the place.
Frank (12:49):
Yeah, only western culture.
Do we say this or that?
WiSH (12:52):
yeah, and I think so many people like it's interesting
because we don't have therecords of them um of like the
history, pre-colonialism and alot of these spaces, but like
how many people were like genderambiguous and also like
(13:13):
connecting with different realms.
Right, there's a book that Ihave and it was basically
talking about there's a tribe inAfrica I can't fully remember,
but I'll let you know once we'redone with this about how people
who are in between male andfemale also have a foot in
between the spiritual world.
(13:34):
So all of it I don't know, allof it comes together and I feel
like that's how I see life aslike all of these things
together, which is why I startedwith what I did and kind of
like I'm coming into like thespirit of it all, because I
think spirit, to me spirit islike the like amniotic fluid of
(13:58):
all these different everythingelse, like there's everything
about, like how we conceptualizeourselves.
Um, like I think of it as Ithink maybe a better word is
like the cytoplasm I'm trying tothink of, even like different
structures.
But, like you know, like spiritis like it's the thing, it's
like the fluid that we're all in, that we like that binds us
(14:21):
together and allows, likegateways and passages come to
each other.
Lauren (14:25):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, everything.
WiSH (14:29):
Yeah.
Lauren (14:30):
Yeah.
WiSH (14:30):
Everything.
Yeah, yeah, um, that's kind ofhow I guess that's like the
foundation of like, of how Ilike look at all of this.
Um but more specifics um of howlike I specifically connect to
(14:51):
spirit.
I really didn't feel much oflike anything, any specific
connection um, other than justlike vibes.
When I was going to churchpraying, like it felt like a
direct line was going from me togod at the top of my head.
Lauren (15:03):
Yeah.
Frank (15:03):
Oh, very specific yeah.
WiSH (15:06):
And it was like, yeah, and I still do that to this day
when I'm praying or talking tomy cause.
I've moved away from likepraying to Christian guys so
much into connecting with myancestors and spirit guides and,
yeah, connecting with god aswell.
But, like everybody, you know,like can I get everybody
(15:30):
together because at some point,like it's all just one spirit,
um, yeah.
So yeah, I started likeexploring a little bit like out
of christianity in um highschool, like when I got into
astrology, love, astrology down,yeah, and felt really like
(15:52):
resonant with that.
But I was like it's just burn,like this, is that satan stuff?
Right, yeah?
Lauren (16:00):
yeah, yeah it's like, ingrained in your, in your, in
your brain.
Yes, you have to undo so muchof the like belief system that
you, what you were like,hammered, yeah into yeah, yeah,
and it really felt like it was abelief system of like
separation.
WiSH (16:22):
That's like the biggest thing like and I'm still working
on that to this day like, yeah,removing the separation, um,
yeah, because I don't know, like, if you look at it a certain
way, like everything can flowinto each other, everything
makes sense.
I'm like looking at all thesedifferent religions and I'm like
, yeah, that makes sense.
Yeah, I see where that goes in.
(16:44):
Yeah, yeah, it feels like alllike different roads to like the
same, the same thing that we'relike looking for.
Yeah, yeah, I got intoastrology a little bit but like
I kind of like left it out thereuntil college, when I moved
away, and that's when I was ableto like it was field day, I was
(17:05):
like I can do whatever I wantyeah where'd you move to?
I moved to.
It was still in Illinois, butit was like this small town,
charleston, illinois.
Okay, it used to be in sundowntown, so there's that.
But the community at the school, which I guess like is that
(17:26):
like almost like any school,like any public school, because
there's a lot of like differentpeople coming in.
A lot of people from Chicagocame down there, so the
community of the school reallylike had enough space for me to
like explore so many differentthings.
I explored, yeah, I explored mygender, um for the first time
(17:46):
there, um score sexuality more,um took like queer theories
classes, um, I was a sociologymajor, so this might be like a
little bit inside of how, whyI'm like, why I think like this.
Yeah, because I see like I'mlooking at different like social
strata kind of things.
Yeah, yeah, so, like I justtook that time to explore so
(18:14):
many different things, exploremyself a little bit more.
And I had a friend who told methat like we're on a walk one
night and she told me that likejust randomly that she walk one
night, and she told me that,like just randomly that, um, she
was born with her third eyeopen and like she's from like a
spiritual, like witchy family,yeah, one talk.
(18:34):
I was like that's a.
Frank (18:37):
That's quite the icebreaker.
WiSH (18:38):
Yeah, by the way like three months into our friendship
, like actually actually let metell you.
And then she was like yeah,like my mom and grandma have
disability and they like didwork to close my eye because I
was saying too many things whenI was a baby, but now, like I
(19:01):
practiced, and while we're onthe walk, she's like, yeah, a
spirit behind us and I was likelike my whole world was shaking.
yeah, that's amazing, yeahbecause it's all stuff that I
was like, oh like, kind of likeI feel like I was peeking
through the blinds and likereading the internet, but like
to have this was like a fulllike, like I was smacked in the
(19:24):
face with like like getting to,like not experience it firsthand
, I guess, but like be withsomebody who's experiencing it
firsthand and their journey withit.
So, yeah, she was like, yeah,the spirit is behind us.
It has like a, it's like askinny body but like the head of
a turtle, and I would like tofeel like I and I would like
just be like I was like this isso crazy.
(19:45):
Like okay, not a human, okay,work, I am now aware that
non-human spirits are here and Iwould keep turning around and
she's like stop, you're scaringit.
I'm like, let me get home.
I was scared, but likeintrigued, yeah.
(20:07):
So yeah, that's like really likewhen the door opened wide, like
for me, that's when I was likeI'm all in, like let me explore
more, let me feel into myselfmore.
I think like certain ways thatI grew up like emotionally
stunted me.
So that's been a.
That's been like what I've beenworking on from that point on
(20:30):
To unlock emotional closure thatalso closes off my connection
with spirit and with perception,with know, with my spiritual
gifts.
Yeah, yeah, because I used tolike not be able to cry at all.
(20:51):
Now I can like do a little,like like one tear maybe, which
is a lot better than like before, and I'll like get more
emotional now, but I used tolike that used to be like
completely closed off to mereally yeah, even as an empath.
Lauren (21:09):
How did you process emotions?
Frank (21:14):
I don't know emotions.
WiSH (21:16):
For me it would yeah it was all stomach, I would like
feel a lot of like, like I feelbad.
I would get like anger.
It was more available, and Ithink there's like a masculine
thing too, yeah, um, like angerwas more available to me.
Um, like feeling it secondarily, versus like the like boohoo.
(21:41):
You know what I say?
Like that, no, I love theboohoo, um, but like it would
feel that wasn't available to meand it's still like it's a
little bit hard.
But when I'm like sitting in mybody more, I'll be able to like
channel, instead of like goinginto like the frustration, I'll
be able to like wait what am Iactually feeling and then like
(22:02):
channel it into the emotionsthat like are there, which is
usually like some kind of likesadness or like feeling, feeling
less than and like.
That's the first point, versuslike turning that into like.
Now I'm mad at XYZ because oflike what's, yeah, what's going
on inside of me right yeah, yeah, that's a journey that's so
(22:25):
insightful too.
What's going on inside of me,right, yeah?
Frank (22:27):
That's a journey that's so insightful too.
WiSH (22:29):
Yeah, thank you.
Actually, it goes a little bitfurther in my story.
I'm trying to be linear.
I'm not a linear thinker,though I live with one Word.
This guy is the linear, I'm nota linear thinker, though.
Lauren (22:44):
I live with one word this guy is the linear thinker
and I'm like, oh, and thenthere's this, and then, oh wait,
I forgot to tell you like 10years before that he's like I'm
trying to follow you.
WiSH (23:02):
I wrote this down, but I'm not even looking at my paper so
far, so good.
Lauren (23:09):
It feels good okay with you all the way, thank you.
WiSH (23:13):
I need the validation.
I appreciate it.
But yeah, I think in collegeafter that I started getting
into stuff like numerology,human design, um, got into it,
like got into spirituality,intellectually, but I still
wasn't like feeling things.
I was kind of like I was like Iwant to feel these things.
(23:34):
I want to like have theseabilities.
I've always been like obsessedwith like superheroes and
superpowers too, so like readingabout this, I felt like I was
like going Super Saiyan orsomething.
Yeah, I'm like I want to feelthis.
Yeah, people like Raven fromTeen Titans, raven's- so cool
(23:59):
More in Super.
Frank (23:59):
Saiyan as a Dragon Ball Z reference.
Lauren (24:01):
I didn't get that one.
You know, when you see, likeI'm sure you've seen little
clips of Dragon Ball Z reference.
Frank (24:05):
Okay, I didn't get that one, Sorry.
You know, when you see like I'msure you've seen little clips
of Dragon Ball Z, when a dude'sgoing like this, he's like
catching fire.
Lauren (24:10):
Yes.
Frank (24:10):
That's.
WiSH (24:11):
Super Saiyan.
Frank (24:12):
And then, his hair turns blonde.
WiSH (24:13):
Yeah, yeah, okay.
We're all just waiting for ourhair to turn blonde.
Got it, yeah.
And to around us.
Yeah, that's what I was um, butyeah, I was like okay, so
spiritual abilities?
are like the closest I can getto super superpowers, yeah, yeah
, like diving in there.
(24:34):
Um, so I came in with like a,like a agenda and like thinking
about it.
Thinking about it, thinkingabout it um, I didn't really
realize that feeling into it waslike just as important, if not
more important, um, until Iguess I had to.
So after, after college, I waskind of feeling like, um, I fell
(25:00):
into like a depression becauseI went to school trying to like
accommodate as best as I could,to like what I felt like I had
to do in society, like how do Isay?
Um, I feel like I grew upfeeling like I needed to be in
STEM or like you know somethinglike make money, basically.
(25:25):
So I felt like I had to makemoney, prove to be a good heir
to like my grandma's amazinglegacy of like working the house
down, like she really like EastSt Louis.
She had a huge impact on thewhole city.
So I'm like, how am I going tolive to that?
(25:46):
I was like, actually, thatdoesn't bring me like any joy at
all.
And when I was like graduatingcollege, like towards the end of
college is when I started likeI feel like experiencing spirit
for the first time, mainlybecause I was doing psychedelics
, I was like, wow, oh yeah, thatreally does open some doors
(26:07):
there, yeah, but like I was likeconnecting with other people's
energies in a way where I hadn'tbefore.
I had this really like kind ofscary moment where I think,
while I was like taking shroomswith a few friends, I didn't
feel safe in the environment tobegin with, um, and it was just
(26:30):
like staticky, bigger in frontof me, they're like sat on the
bed with me and it was likeshaped like a man but like just
made of static, and I was justlike wow, like who are you
vibing, you know?
And then, like once, like I was, I reached out and once it
touched my hand, um, I likeimmediately felt sick, like I
(26:55):
was gonna throw up.
So, like I like I was like Ineed to get out of this house,
like that's the first thing thatcame to me.
Um, so I like tried to like godownstairs but like I need to
get out of this house, likethat's the first thing that came
to me, um, so I like tried tolike go downstairs, but like I
couldn't even really walk.
I was like laying on the, um,the, the railway, like sliding
my body down.
I was like, oh, totallyfreaking out, crying, laughing.
(27:17):
Then I was like I need to leave, I need to leave, and I kept
seeing this figure like to the,you know, to the left of me.
Everywhere I went I saw likethe static man to like the left
of me, um, until I like left thehouse, went back to my friend's
apartment, um, and like,eventually the figure left.
(27:42):
But after that point it waslike, kind of like it's more
like life-changing, like I feltlike a darkness came over me
that I didn't used to havebefore and still trying to
figure out like what that was,like what's, what's that story,
because there was more likedarkness too, and I think it was
all culminating in, like thissense of like childhood leaving,
(28:06):
like the innocence of life,kind of like leaving and going
into the adult world, and I wasjust not ready for that, not
ready to um, there's morepropositions for me to almost
sell my soul.
To put it like six, seven,eight, lay it straight, and I
(28:28):
like to give something of myselfthat I didn't want to give in
order to like, have a healthy,stable life, and I just didn't
want to enter the adult world inthe ways.
The only ways that I saw wereoptions.
So I just kind of like got intoa depression there that lasted
a few years.
(28:48):
I was still like seeing andexperiencing spirit in different
ways, getting like animalmessages and like just like kind
of a knowing, knowing, like, um, for example, there was an owl.
(29:11):
I was on a walk by myself on 1221 2021 and no, it was 12 21
2020.
Um, I think this was like a day.
Back then.
They were like this is the daythat we entered into the age of
aquarius.
Like the astrology people werelike.
They were like this is the daythat we enter into the age of
Aquarius.
The astrology people were goingnuts on this day.
So I was like let me justconnect with myself.
(29:32):
Let me go on this midnight walkaround my neighborhood and I
kept hearing like whoo, whoo,whoo, whoo.
I'm like okay, word, there's anowl around.
I love owls, um, but, like, asI walked like almost a mile, I
kept hearing the same like itwas.
I heard it like to the sameextent, like same volume,
(29:53):
everything.
And I was like, okay, like am Ibeing followed?
And as soon as I like had thatthought and looked up, I saw the
owl like fly above my head andland on a branch in front of me
and I'm like but then I justkept
walking and it kept following me, like I kept like seeing it now
that I was looking for it,seeing it and hearing it, until
(30:14):
I got like a highway and then itdidn't follow me across there
but I still kept hearing it.
Who at me?
Like I'm just personalizing, Idon't know what it was doing,
like logically, but it wasreally like coming with me
across this journey and this waslike during a specifically like
period of my life where I wasfeeling like a lot of darkness.
(30:38):
And it actually turned out thatI think because, looked it up
in mouth, owls are messengers,sometimes even harbingers of
death, um, but some kind oftransition, some kind of like
(31:02):
it's also they're soothing, um,so I felt was it was a month
from that owl encounter that mymom ended up passing away.
Lauren (31:11):
Oh my God, oh my gosh yeah.
WiSH (31:13):
It was really sudden.
She got sick in November andwas like in the hospital back
and forth, um, no one knew whatwas going on, and then
eventually the doctors found out, but it was too late.
So, yeah, it was as far as likepassings go.
It was really like hard on meand my family.
Lauren (31:36):
Yeah I'm so sorry, thank you yeah, thank you.
WiSH (31:39):
It like the emotions are coming up now and like my
masculine part of me was like,don't feel sad, but yeah, it's
still.
It like it really, um, itreally rocked my world.
Yeah, it really rocked my world, um, and it's so interesting
(32:05):
that it was literally a month itwas literally a month before
that that has had this owlencounter on like such a
synchronistic day yeah, yeahyeah, um it makes me think how
much harder, how much harder itwould have been.
Frank (32:21):
Obviously you had a hard time with your mom passing, but
you know to have that likemoment with had a hard time with
your mom passing, but you knowto have that like moment with
the owl to think back on and belike, oh, you know what, like
sure it might've been like a, awarning, but also like an
acknowledgement that you are notalone in any of this.
Yeah, yeah.
It's even bigger than all ofthis.
Yeah, I hope that it's a littlebit of comfort, you know.
WiSH (32:47):
Yeah, oh, I, yeah, I hope that a little bit of comfort.
You know, yeah, oh, Iappreciate that, because I
wasn't mad at al for a littlebit.
I've had to like I just want todo gloat in my face.
Lauren (32:52):
You know, yeah, yeah, yeah, but no, that's yeah and it
really you think about it thatway as being like supported and
like you know, looking back onwhat that message meant as far
as, like, like you said,transition or kind of, you know,
yeah, those messages from likeany signs, or they're just so
(33:19):
profound, yeah yeah, and thatone really was probably like the
most profound, probably mostprofound sign I've ever gotten
yeah, other than the day my mompassed, maybe Because after she
passed away I was feeling allthe emotions.
WiSH (33:38):
We got like a call from the hospital like that morning
and they're like y'all mightwant to come in.
So we immediately knew what wasgoing to happen.
She was scheduled for a surgery.
It was post-surgery.
They were like, yeah, I'm notdescribing this in any way,
(33:59):
emotions are really coming up inme trying to describe this.
They're like, yeah, there's notreally much we can do anymore.
So we all gathered, met her atthe hospital, said our goodbyes
and, right as we were leaving, Ijust felt like a crazy energy,
(34:31):
like a crazy energy and a deepknowing.
Like a deep knowing and like adeep sense of like brightness
and calm came over me, like itwas almost like.
It was almost like an alertnessto where I felt like my mom was
with me and it also felt likeshe was giving her life energy
(34:55):
to me so that not only I couldfeel comforted, but it also felt
like she was healing a lot ofthe darkness that I I was
feeling at that time and I hadbeen feeling up until then, like
I just it was like this momentof just like deep appreciation
of life joy.
I felt like I could see, likeyou know, I was saying, like I
(35:18):
have that golden cord that comesup.
I was seeing cords all aroundme.
It was like they're likeweaving around.
There's a baby that came out, um, right as mike, as we were
leaving from like my mom passing, and I was like I was able in
that moment to like appreciate,like new life is here, like it
was sunny and like 50 degrees onthat day.
(35:38):
I was like there's no betterday that like my mom could have
passed, because, like she gaveus like such a good, a beautiful
morning to walk out to, the sunwas shining and like rising
from the direction we're walkingto our cars, um, it just felt
like everything wassynchronistic and I was like
seeing like all the strings andconnections of life as if they
(36:01):
were like chords all around meand it's amazing yeah, it's so
beautiful that you were able tobe that like aware and present
in such, in such a grief momenttoo.
Yeah, thank you, thank you, um,I don't even like now you say
(36:22):
that I'm like I don't even know,I'm not aware of how I was even
able to do that.
Maybe it was part of me justbottoming out and just being
empty for something to come in,because I was like my grandma
and sister were probably annoyedbecause I was like everything's
so beautiful and they're likemy mom died, you know, and I'm
(36:45):
like yes, and and not to likediscredit, like any of that, you
know, but I was like I couldnot see the beauty of it too.
I was like, wow, it gave me anew lease on life, the everyday
step by step of it making itthrough.
But, um, that, that, um, Ithink that just changed my life
(37:12):
like I can't think of.
Now I have hope, like a deep, adeep, deep hope that I don't
think anything can really takeaway, and I use that hope to
like help like me rebuild andheal myself from, like, a lot of
(37:35):
, a lot of stuff, a lot of um,the lack of hope and lack of
like how do I say?
I don't know how to say it butlike I was still like, even
though I I had that burst, likeI still had to work on and heal
myself in a lot of differentways do you feel like it was
still?
it still felt like it took animmense amount of effort just to
get to a neutral place whereyou can, like, feel appreciation
(37:57):
yeah, yeah, yeah for sure,because it was like on one level
or in some place, I it's like ayeah, it was like I felt hope
for hope.
Yeah, yeah, like the full thingwasn't there yet, but I was
like there's something here, um.
So, yeah, for these past fewyears I've just been like really
(38:19):
like diving into that more,feeling into, like these
feelings, tapping into thatspace where I started to feel
like how do I say?
Honing into the energy that Ireceived on that day, tapping
(38:42):
into where I felt it in my body,following my intuition more.
There was a spiritual counselinggroup that I joined a month
after my mom passed, because onInstagram there was an interview
that the host of it did on arandom advertisement that I saw
(39:04):
and I was like I like his energy.
So then I found him um onInstagram and, like I messaged
him and he was opening up agroup of all queer trans,
identifying people um to jointogether and collect, um to like
(39:25):
learn how to embody more.
Yeah, it was kind of like aspirituality meets, like
trans-ness, and it's based it'scalled Tiresias, based on the
myth of Tiresias from Greekmythology, where Tiresias was a
(39:49):
man who, I believe, was punishedinto being turned into a woman
and he gained insights on beingboth a man and a woman, having
that experience, and he becamelike a philosopher or like a
wise person.
Frank (40:10):
I've never heard this story.
That's amazing.
WiSH (40:14):
I recommend it because I've never heard either before
this group, yeah, that's cool,yeah, and I think that's like
the premise of the group.
So what we did was like justpractice, embodiment, um, we
would like say phrases, um, likeI, um like what we wanted, like
I have a successful businessthat I love and feel embodied in
(40:40):
every single day, and we wouldlike say these phrases over and
over again and allow ourselvesto be heard and reflected on by
another person.
It was really intimate, likeone-on-one, like exchanges.
The other person would, um,just sit there and like stare
you in the eyes.
While you said these things,insecurities will come up, fears
(41:03):
will come up, um, everything,joy, rage, everything would come
up and be palpable.
And it was like an exercise forboth partners to use their own
abilities, use their empathy, topick up on what's being
(41:24):
conveyed and reflect that backin an honest way.
And it was good.
That really was the foundationof me like learning to embody
and like feel myself, feel myemotions, um, know where they're
coming from, where they'relocated in the body, um, and
(41:45):
yeah, like that was like thefirst step to like really
feeling my feelings about my mompassing and letting myself like
express like I like, like Isaid, I don't have an easy time
crying, but I remember one timeI was with some Tiresias friends
and we were just like breathingand I like hit this point of
(42:09):
like grieving.
I was outside like my neighborwas like in her house right
across the street and I like hitthis point of like grieving.
I was outside like my neighborwas like in her house right
across the street and I was justlike I don't even know what I
was doing.
I was like making heavingnoises, like just like out there
, yeah, like going through it.
Lauren (42:27):
Letting it all out.
WiSH (42:28):
Letting it out, yeah, in the ways that it needed to.
Like.
I feel embarrassed thinkingback on this and saying this,
but it was really like.
It was also really beautiful,just to like let myself feel and
express and like let it out inthe ways that it needed to come
out.
Lauren (42:45):
Yeah.
WiSH (42:45):
Yeah, yeah.
So that really, like thatreally helped a lot.
So then I decided to go back toschool.
I'm like I want to, like I'vealways had this desire to help
people and I've always had thisfeeling that I wasn't doing what
I was supposed to be doing.
(43:06):
And it kind of correlates withlike going to feeling not ready
to like be in the adult worldand like not grounded enough to
like face the challenges thatcome with that.
But, like, I always had thisknowing that I want to help
(43:28):
people in some capacity,especially, and probably mainly,
in a spiritual capacity.
So I started massage and I'mjumping ahead a little bit.
I started counseling.
I started going to school fortalk counseling.
I went to school for this Ishould know what it's called
(43:51):
Therapy of the speech varietyand I was like going through it.
It was great learning all thisstuff.
But when it came time to likelike get in the field and do the
work and like practice, I waslike really not feeling it and I
was like kind of going back andforth, back and forth.
(44:12):
I'm like why don't I want to dothis?
Like on paper it's exactly whatI want to do, but I think like
just the energy again of theschool, like the energy of, like
the program.
It wasn't what I wanted Like.
I wanted more hands-on, Iwanted more like of, like an
emotional connection, and thatis possible in therapy.
(44:33):
But I think there's a lot ofhoops that needs to be jumped
over.
While I was in school, I waseven just feeling out the class
and the teachers and what wasbeing taught.
It felt like people were morefocused on the material things
(44:53):
like insurance and um, what if aclient does xyz and like they
rub you the wrong way or youknow, like the, what we were,
how we were connecting, wasn'thow I like what, what I felt
like I wanted to do, you knowit's still so in Getting in the
logistics, but it's all still sobuilt into the existing system
(45:16):
that it seems like you're tryingto find a way out of.
Yeah, yes, exactly yes, itreally was that.
It was like, because I feellike what I want to actually do
is really not within any ofthese current modern systems
that are stemming fromcolonialism.
It's not, um, and I think, like, when you like really look at,
(45:40):
like what all this came from,not to get like crazy political,
but like so much of this stemsfrom.
So much of this stems fromslavery.
Like so much of this, so muchof how we move, how we operate,
how we even think, stems from,like, the concept of like having
(46:00):
someone to work and do like alot of the menial labor and, um,
rise up off of that.
Frank (46:14):
The structure of most companies, the structure of
society, I would argue, is builtoff of a master-slave system
and we're all down here fightingfor scraps, yes, and then they
pit us against each other.
But yeah, I can go into it.
WiSH (46:26):
You know, yeah, and then we're trying to become the next
r up, like it's all based onthat, and that's kind of how it
felt Like, um, I felt thosesimilar energies with my
counseling program, so like theday.
I was like laying in bed and Iwas like I'm really, I'm going
to do this.
Like finally gave myself.
(46:48):
I was like what if I didn'tlike what?
Like finally gave myself.
I was like what if I didn'tLike?
What if I stopped?
And like I felt like a wholerush over my body, like of this,
like idea and like allowance tostop, and I was like like I
felt so free.
Frank (47:02):
Isn't it wild when you let yourself be yourself?
Lauren (47:05):
Yeah, I just like, let go.
It is Like oh my gosh, I didn'teven know it was possible.
WiSH (47:11):
Yeah, yeah.
But yeah, literally like y'all.
Yeah, you hear me in the senseof like trying to find a space
while not working in that samelike system.
Yeah, not working, yeah Notworking in a way that um, um, in
(47:35):
a way that is so eating, so Iallow myself to quit.
And I felt amazing and theneventually, like, with that
space, I found actually one ofmy mentors who's becoming like a
(47:55):
really lovely and valuablespiritual mentor to me.
She also does my locks, damnAmazing.
Her husband actually went tothis school for massage therapy
called the Healing Arts Centerand I was like, excuse me, the
(48:20):
Healing Arts Center, um, what dothey do?
And I would like to be part ofthat.
Yeah, and it was a massageschool, but it's really like
it's actually I think it's thefirst massage school in the St
Louis area, um, longest running,and they specifically
specialize.
I'm not sure about like mostmassage schools, but this one
specifically like specializesand it's like grounded in um,
(48:41):
energy work and energy healing.
Amazing, yeah, tying it alltogether, um, and I'm like that
sounds like exactly what I wantto do.
So I went to, I like signed upfor everything just went so
smoothly.
I signed up like to talk tosomebody and they're like join,
(49:01):
and I'm like, oh, this seems sosweet, but they're like you can
come to a massage or a snowshoesnight to see what you feel.
So I went to that with myfriend and I was like, oh yeah,
like this is great.
We learned like basic, liketechniques of rocking, um, but
then like basically physicaltechniques of rocking, like
(49:23):
connecting with the person, um,and we also learned like how to
like energetically, like cleanseourselves and move energy off
of people as well.
They also teach Reiki, which Iknow you are.
Are you a master now?
I haven't caught up with you,lauren.
Lauren (49:40):
I am yeah.
Frank (49:43):
I call her Sensei.
Lauren (49:45):
I just told Frank yesterday.
I'm like I think it's time foryou to be attuned as a Reiki
master.
Frank (49:51):
And I said but then I can't call you sensei anymore,
I'll always call you sensei,it's fine we can both be senseis
but I'm forever your sensei.
Lauren (50:00):
Yes, yeah so did you learn?
WiSH (50:07):
Reiki too not yet, but that is part of the program.
We can attune to level one andthen we can come back to level
two and level three, so Idefinitely plan on doing that.
Yeah, I'm so excited about thatand all the energy healing in
general and, yeah, just rightnow I feel like this is the
(50:31):
happiest I've been, maybe inlife, and also specifically in
like a school setting.
I love my cohort.
We all like connect in such away that, even like the
administrators are like y'allare like there's something going
on here Like word.
(50:52):
This is a group of genuinepeople.
Yeah, um, yeah, like I used tobe scared of people, but like
now I'm like there's so muchlove in the world, like it's
there yeah you just got to findit, and find it in yourself
first, I think.
Frank (51:11):
Yeah, it's there.
And also, like everybody has itand even if they don't have it,
all the time you can, you canpull it out of people and give
them good, good moments likethat I've noticed.
Lauren (51:21):
Yeah, that's so real Good for you for paying
attention to what felt likemisaligned and finding, as soon
as you were saying like talkingabout being in therapy class,
and I was thinking that's notthe right like, when you were
(51:42):
like this isn't the right thing,I was like it's going to be
energy healing, it's going to beReiki, like, and if wish is not
doing that, then I'm going tosuggest it Fantastic.
WiSH (51:56):
You have a good read on me .
Lauren (51:59):
I'm working on my, on my intuitive knowing what comes in
.
Frank (52:04):
Um, was there more to your story?
I don't want to stop.
WiSH (52:07):
That was it.
Thank y'all for going along forthat ride.
Frank (52:11):
Thank you for bringing us along with you.
It's a beautiful it.
Thank y'all for going along forthat ride.
Thank you for bringing us alongwith you.
Lauren (52:13):
It's a beautiful journey .
Thank you for sharing.
Frank (52:15):
There's something I wanted to point out real quick.
You opened up the story sayingthat like you're kind of living
a magically mundane life, butthat's, that's an incredible,
meaningful story.
And while it might not be oneof those things where, like I
got in a car accident and had anNDE and like now I, you know,
like I don't know, playhopscotch with ghosts, you're
(52:35):
like what?
What your journey to me lookslike is that you are on a
personal mission to find what Iwould call like spiritual and
emotional sustainability tobuild a new future, and like
it's, it's you, you should writethat down.
(52:58):
You kind of hit me as like, a,like a I don't want to abuse the
word, like shaman, but somekind of like future thought
leader in that.
In that sense, Cause you alsocarry, even though I know you
may have struggled with it inyour early years, you do carry.
Even though I know you, you mayhave struggled with it in your
early years, you, you do carrylike a confidence.
That like is really empoweringbecause you've managed to and
(53:18):
you're in the middle of ajourney of empowering yourself,
and I think there's somethingamazing to that.
WiSH (53:24):
Thank you.
Yeah, too much love.
Lauren (53:28):
I'm excited to see where this goes for you.
Frank (53:31):
I mean even from like obviously your, your, your
mother passing was, was terrible, but you, like, you've come out
on the other end of that andit's still like a journey to get
through, like the grief, butthen also like just your story
walk alongside the grief, younever walk along, walk along the
grief, walk alongside thebeautiful, but also like, like
even in your journey to throughbeing a non-conforming
(53:54):
individual, like it's all partof building something new.
And that's like that's been mykind of my main takeaway from
your story.
I, for me, it's easy to distillbecause you had to tell me in
an hour, but you know that'swhat's coming through.
Those are the main points.
I'm like, oh man, wish did thisand wish did this, and wish is
building something new.
I think it's.
(54:16):
It's super cool and I don'tthink it's mundane at all yeah
thank you, yeah, it's, it's so.
WiSH (54:24):
I really appreciate like you're reflecting that.
Um, it's hard to like see yourlife from the outside.
Yeah, yeah, you know, and thisis actually like probably the
first time I've ever like toldthis story, cause it really it
feels.
It feels like it's coming tolike a point, like brought
(54:47):
well-rounded, like story, if youwill, right now, like this is
the point where I'm like whoa,if you will right now, this is
the point where I'm like whoa, Isee where and how all of this
got me to where I'm at now andwhy?
Frank (55:01):
Because you wouldn't be in this position if you hadn't
done all that, if you hadn't hadto overcome, or what did you
say?
Walk next to all of that.
Lauren (55:10):
Walk alongside your grief.
Frank (55:11):
Walk alongside your grief .
Lauren (55:12):
Walk alongside your grief yeah.
Frank (55:13):
She's better than me, she's sensei.
Thank you, sensei.
Lauren (55:20):
It's just, I've I've had , you know, 20 years of grief.
You never get through it orover it, it just grows.
You grow around it or you walkalongside it, or you know
something like that.
Yeah, it's not linear grief.
So, yeah, I wanted to ask you,though, like with your mom, do
(55:45):
you, is there a sign that youhave from her, Like, is there
like something that, like shesends you, Do you see owls?
Now she comes in my dreams,Amazing.
This is another point.
WiSH (55:59):
Dreams for me are like that's where me and Spirit Kiki
and that's where I get mymessages from them.
Lauren (56:09):
Yeah, and actually it's so funny, one of the first
nights before she passed.
WiSH (56:11):
Like that's where I get my messages from them.
Yeah, yeah, like.
And actually it's so funny thefirst, like one of the first
nights where she passed, I wassleeping in her bed and I had a
dream Um, I think it's likeliterally night one or night two
, like still on, like the threeday bereavement that work gives
you.
Frank (56:30):
Um, I hate it so much.
WiSH (56:34):
Yeah, okay, I was like I need more.
But I had a dream where mygrandma like every all my
family's at the house and mygrandma was lost and everyone's
like where's granny?
Where's granny?
Where's granny, um.
And then my mom came in, likeit came in the house like with
(56:55):
granny on her arm, um, and shesaid nothing.
It's like super, like solemn,um, and I was like embarrassed
and like kind of taking that outon her and also probably just
like taking out a lot of likeanger of her passing, like
directing that to her.
I felt bad about it when I was,when I I like woke up, but I
felt like it was just like itwas something that it was like
(57:16):
the anger of like the situationso fresh there.
But she came in Abandonment,yeah.
Lauren (57:21):
Yeah.
WiSH (57:22):
Yeah, but she said nothing .
She just like walked in andlike looked at me and like,
basically, like, if, like, whatwas communicated without words
was like um, you're her keepernow.
So, yeah, me and my grandma welive together.
Um, it's really, it's been meand her ever since and we take
(57:44):
care of each other.
Um, that's so sweet.
Yeah, yeah, I'm her keeper andI really like, I'm like I took
that role.
After that, like I, I, therewas no question about it.
I was like, yeah, like, becauseit used to be my mom and my
grandma, right, yeah, but yeah,now it's me.
Frank (58:04):
I mean, what a good person for even taking on that
role.
That's not an easy role all thetime yeah.
WiSH (58:13):
Yeah, that's not an easy role all the time, yeah, yeah,
it's been a journey.
It's taught me a lot of likehow to um compromise and respect
, like differences, um in a waythat, like before, I just was
like not dealing with them, I'dbe like I'm over here, but like
now, it's like it's so rewardingto be able to like like still
connect after you know, afterlike not always seeing eye to
(58:36):
eye, yeah, and like finding thatconnection in a yeah in a real
way again.
Frank (58:41):
Yeah something that I had to learn was that because I I
came from a very religiousbackground too and I would get
very mad and rage against it um,over the last like I don't know
decade or so, I've realizedthat like that existed, so that
I could exist and and carry onthe torch in a new, in a new way
(59:04):
.
Right, yeah, it shows you likereligion serves a purpose of,
like showing you the foundation,but like it is okay to walk
away from it and and the youknow, the hierarchical,
hierarchical, the hierarchical,uh, structure that they build
into religion is going to tryand stop you from doing that and
(59:25):
, like some of the people thatused to participate in those
traditional religions have thatingrained into them.
It's hard for them to let thatgo, but you're here to do,
you're here to let it go forthem, and that's like part of
what's one of those things.
It's one of those things, man,new, new world.
WiSH (59:46):
I am loving that I get to experience both of you all's
gifts head on.
Whoa, because I like Lauren,with your empathy, and just like
connecting to the emotions.
Frank, with like your knowingand like being able to like
these are both things that, likeI've been hearing with you all,
(01:00:07):
but experience is a whole otherthing.
Thank you both.
Frank (01:00:13):
Wish.
Thank you so much for spendingtime with us and telling us your
story.
I think it's incredible and Ithink you're incredible yeah
thank you.
WiSH (01:00:18):
I really like um.
I could probably speak for 20more minutes about just how
amazing y'all's podcast andy'all's energy um has for me and
I'm just so sure that it's forso many people.
You probably get messages aboutthis.
I feel like this is exactlywhat I needed at this moment,
(01:00:45):
and y'all just both so sweet andkind and encouraging.
Thank you.
Thank you for being in thisspace and doing this thing that
means so much it really doeswhen the camera turns off.
Frank (01:00:57):
I'm a monster again.
Thank you, for I'm glad my lineis working Well.
Do me a favor and continue togive us updates and if you have
any big revelations or anything,please come back on the show
and we'll chat more.
WiSH (01:01:09):
Yeah, word I would love to with your existing practice.
Frank (01:01:14):
Is there anything any like um links or places you want
to share that people can findyou?
WiSH (01:01:19):
I actually have an instagram, um, that is really
fresh and up and coming.
Um, it's called theintersectionality.
So I been doing um intuitivetarot and Oracle readings over
there.
Um, yeah, and I'm planning onlike putting up like intuition,
(01:01:40):
like test two it's, it's in theworks, awesome.
Lauren (01:01:44):
Yay, that's cool.
Frank (01:01:46):
Thank you so much again.
Thank you, thank you Much loveto y'all, much love.
WiSH (01:01:50):
We'll talk to you soon.
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