October 15, 2024 • 37 mins
Unlock the secrets to crafting impactful lesson plans and aligning assessments with the guidance of expert guest Debbie Robertson. Discover how Ashley seeks to refine her organizational skills with insights from senior leadership coach Debbie. Together, they unravel the art of starting with the end in mind, diving into the crucial process of revisiting educational standards. This episode promises to transform your approach to teaching by ensuring lessons are not just effective but deeply aligned with contemporary educational expectations and student needs.
From integrating real-world scenarios into your classroom to making cross-curricular connections, you'll learn innovative strategies that make learning both relatable and robust. We explore how blending subjects like English Language Arts and math can enrich students' understanding and problem-solving abilities. Plus, gain wisdom on effective coaching for educators, with techniques that prioritize understanding coachees' processes before offering guidance. With thoughtful analogies and practical advice, this episode is a treasure trove for teachers and instructional coaches eager to elevate their educational practices.
For more, make sure to download our handout.
The Southern Regional Education Board is a nonprofit, nonpartisan organization that works with states and schools to improve education at every level, from early childhood through doctoral education and the workforce.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ashley Shaw (00:00):
Hi and welcome back .
I'm Ashley Shaw.
I will be learning somethingwith you today and to get us
started on what we're going tolearn, here is my regular SREB
coach, Daniel Rock.
Daniel Rock (00:14):
Hey Ashley, how's it going?
Ashley Shaw (00:16):
It's pretty good.
It's the end of the week.
That's always nice, absolutely.
Daniel Rock (00:21):
How's it?
Ashley Shaw (00:21):
going for you.
Daniel Rock (00:22):
Oh, it's wonderful, Wonderful.
So what's on your mind today,ashley?
What do you need some help with?
Ashley Shaw (00:29):
So I can be a little bit unorganized sometimes
.
Anybody that knows me will notbe surprised to hear that and
that sometimes can be a problemas a teacher because it means
maybe I don't spend enough timeon planning like I should and so
I want to be better aboutplanning out my lessons.
(00:50):
Do you have anybody that canhelp me with that?
Daniel Rock (00:54):
I'm thinking.
One of our senior leadershipcoaches, debbie Robertson, is a
master at design, thinking andhelping teachers do all of those
great things that we know areimportant, like beginning with
the end in mind and startingwith standards and then moving
(01:18):
to assessments and having a verydeliberate and coherent process
.
So why don't we have you meetwith Debbie Robertson, and I
think you'll have a greatexperience learning with her.
Ashley Shaw (01:30):
That sounds great.
I'm looking forward to workingwith her.
Daniel Rock (01:33):
After you talk to her, I'll come back and look at
some of the ways that she workedwith you as an instructional
coach and some of the strategiesshe employed that people out
there who are working with otheradults might want to try.
Ashley Shaw (01:45):
All right, well, that sounds perfect.
Let's bring in Debbie, and I'lltalk to you later.
Hello Debbie, thank you so muchfor being here today.
Debbie Robertson (01:55):
Thanks, Ashley .
I'm super excited to be withyou.
Ashley Shaw (01:57):
We like to start with having the coach do a
little bit of an introduction tothemselves, just so we know
who's coaching us today.
Debbie Robertson (02:04):
Okay, yeah, so I taught in a math classroom
for 13 years at the middleschool level and then I spent
the next two years as aninstructional coach that was
based at the district inPensacola, florida, and really
focused on schools that were inturnaround status, and during
(02:27):
those two years I did get theopportunity to teach an algebra
class and then a geometry class.
So my experience has beenmiddle and high.
And then I did that for twoyears and then I was recruited
by SREB nine years ago and I'vebeen with SREB ever since.
I currently serve as a seniorleadership coach, but spend most
(02:52):
of my time in the role of aninstructional coach, and I'm
excited to be with you today.
Ashley Shaw (02:58):
Well, thank you so much for coming.
I love hearing from mathteachers because, as an English
person myself, math is not mybest subject, so I respect math
teachers a lot.
Debbie Robertson (03:10):
Well, you know , the thing about math is, you
can get better at it every day,so everyone's a math person.
Ashley Shaw (03:17):
That's good to know .
I asked Dan to find me a coachthat could help me with an issue
I've been struggling with,which is something I'm sure a
lot of teachers deal with.
I teach the material and I'mlike, oh, they've got it, they
understand it, and then we mightget to an assessment.
Or in my classes they mightwrite an essay and I'm like, oh,
they did not get it.
(03:38):
I would like some advice on howto not only teach the material,
but teach the material in a waythat's going to actually get
them to understand the material.
Can you help with that?
Debbie Robertson (03:52):
Sure, yeah, yeah.
Ashley Shaw (03:53):
This is a common problem that teachers
experienced and the first thingI'd like to ask is what does
your planning process currentlylook like?
I have to admit that a lot ofmy planning.
At this point, I feel like I'msuch an expert I've been
teaching for so long.
My planning is oh where's thatlesson from last year that I
already did on this topic, whichis not the best way to plan.
(04:17):
I usually do have an actuallesson plan, but sometimes it's
older and I don't always updateit like I should.
Debbie Robertson (04:24):
Gotcha.
Yeah, Ashley.
So that's a common problem thatteachers experience.
They do what's comfortable tothem and a lot of times they do
that with good intentions, withgreat intentions.
Their mindset is I've got a lotof stuff to cover and I don't
have enough time for planning,so I'm just going to go with
(04:47):
what I've done before, Eventhough, according to what you
said, we have evidence that'snot necessarily being effective
for our students.
Ashley Shaw (05:06):
I definitely know I'm guilty of.
If the lesson seems to go well,I consider it a good lesson,
even if the assessment shows itdidn't go as well as I thought.
So if they seem to be absorbingit in class and they seem to be
answering questions and theyseem to be getting it, I'm like,
yes, I'm going to redo thislesson, even though they got it
in class but didn't get it forthe assessment.
So that's definitely where Ineed to have that mental
connection.
I guess that idea of okay, it'snot working, like I think it's
(05:27):
working, I do need to adjust,sure sure.
Debbie Robertson (05:30):
Yes, that speaks to the topic of, or the
idea of, coherence and planning,right?
So how do we make sure thatwhat our students are
experiencing and how we'rehaving them demonstrate
understanding in our classroomis really aligned with the
standard and the assessmentsthat are based on the standards?
(05:51):
And so how do we make thathappen?
Well, we begin with ourplanning process by digging into
our standards every time.
We teach them, year after year.
And so when I say digging intothe standards, I mean really
spending time collaboratingaround the expectations of the
standard, especially the verbsof the standard, and here's what
(06:14):
I mean by that.
I can teach my students how toperform an experiment that
demonstrates a certainphenomenon let's say weathering
a certain phenomenon, let's sayweathering.
However, if the standardspecifically states that
students are expected to designan experiment that demonstrates
weathering that's a completelydifferent skill set and by
(06:35):
interpreting it myself andsaying, oh, I'm going to show
them how I'm going to have themdemonstrate weathering through
this experiment and never havethem reach the level of creation
of an experiment, then I havenot truly prepared them.
My instruction does not alignwith, and is not coherent with,
the assessment level at whichthey're going to have to
(06:57):
demonstrate their understanding.
So we do this on a regularbasis.
Every time we sit down to plan,we always go back to the
standards to make sure that weare aligned with the intent of
the standard.
What exactly is the standardexpecting them to?
How is it expecting them todemonstrate understanding?
And then, after we develop thisrobust understanding of our
(07:21):
standards and that requires time, understanding of our standards
and that requires time it doestake time and it takes a space
in which you can engage indiscourse within your community
of educators.
Those are conversations thatare had within your grade level
as well as horizontally andvertically, because we need to
(07:41):
think about not just only whataffects our grade level, but
what are those deepunderstandings that set our
students up for future success.
So then, after we really getclarity on our standards and we
come into agreement on ourstandards and what they're
asking students or how they'reasking students to demonstrate
(08:01):
mastery of that standard, we getinto this idea of backwards
design.
So we have an idea, we have aclarity on what our standard is
asking and then we go and welook at how our standard will be
assessed.
So, if you have access to stateassessment release items or even
descriptors of test items.
(08:23):
We would surely make use ofthose.
But I'll also have my teacherswork through any benchmark exams
or unit tests whatever isavailable to them to provide
insight in how students will beassessed.
I prefer that these assessmentsbe written external from the
(08:43):
classroom, and what I mean bythat is it's really nice to have
benchmarks or moduleassessments or state items that
are written by another group ofpeople who have really dug into
the standard.
Because if I'm in the classroomdesigning my own assessments, a
lot of times I do it in reverseorder and I design my
(09:07):
instruction and then I create myassessments, whereas your
assessments should be createddirectly from the standards and
then your instruction shouldalign to the standards through
this idea of how they're goingto be assessed.
And then I have teachersactually work through the
assessments, not just again, notjust look at them and say, oh
(09:29):
yeah, that's a question onmean-media mode or whatever.
So we have to work through themand talk about and have
discourse around.
What exactly are studentsexpected to do?
Where are going to be themisconceptions?
Where are the students going tohave errors in their thinking?
For example, if I see anassessment item that deals with
(09:54):
measures of center.
I may think yep, got it coveredthat we talked about
mean-meaning mode.
My kids can find mean-meaningmode like nobody's business.
And then the assessment itemactually says here are some
measures of center mean medianmode.
Can you create a set of data inwhich these measures of center
(10:15):
would be applicable?
Again, that's a completelydifferent skill set than me
giving my students a set of dataand saying can you find these
measures of center?
So we've aligned to ourstandards, we are aware of the
assessment expectations and thenwe begin designing our
(10:36):
instruction.
This idea of lesson planning.
I think about Jason Kennedy,who wrote the book let's Stop
Teaching and Start DesigningLessons.
He says that lesson planningshould be focused on what the
teacher will be saying,assigning or assessing, but then
lesson design focuses on whatthe students will be discussing
(10:58):
and how they will demonstratewith, engage with or demonstrate
their understanding.
So the lesson planning involvesalignment and even pacing.
And then lesson design involvesthe actual learning experience.
And then lesson design involvesthe actual learning experience.
Ashley Shaw (11:16):
Teachers plan the coherence piece, but design for
the learning and understandingpiece.
Okay, and kind of speaking tothat or what I think that you're
saying here.
I know something that Istruggle with is that disconnect
with the planning that Idesigned my lessons to be really
fun and really engaging, to getthem in class learning, but
then I don't necessarily havethat planning portion where I'm
(11:38):
connecting that to theassessment.
So the assessment is the dryboring.
These are the facts that youneed, but the lesson is like
hands on, interactive and I'dnever put in the design portion
of the lesson that connection tohelp them make the connections
to the assessment.
Debbie Robertson (11:54):
Yeah, yeah.
And so you know, and you hearpeople say I'm not going to
teach to the test, I'm not.
Well, if your tests are alignedto the standards, then why
would you not want to preparethem for demonstration of
mastery of the standards?
And so I think sometimes asteachers, we get bogged down in
(12:16):
the idea of I want my kids tohave fun, I want them to be
engaged, I want to hear themtalking, but we don't really pay
attention to, or we don't payenough attention to, what are
they talking about.
So that's where that idea ofdesigning instruction that, yes,
(12:36):
it is engaging, I do need mykids up and moving and talking
and debating and examining andexploring, but I need them to do
that in such a way that theydevelop this deep understanding
so that when they do have todemonstrate what they know on
perhaps a dry, boring exam item,that they are so well prepared
(13:01):
and confident and they persevere, that they are going to be able
to express their understandingin a way that meets the mastery
of the standard as designated bythe assessment item.
Ashley Shaw (13:14):
So do you have any tips or ideas on how exactly to
do that?
Debbie Robertson (13:20):
Yeah, so I think about as we look at our
standards and we think about thelevel at which or the verbiage
of the standard at which thestudents are going to have to
demonstrate understanding.
That's the serious part oflesson planning.
I think that you can createengaging lessons in a way that
(13:44):
promote student thinking.
You know Ron Richard talksabout learning is a result of
thinking, and so we really needour students to think deeply
about the big ideas of our gradelevel.
I was teaching my students andthis was an inclusion class of
(14:05):
40 students, and I was teachingmy students, or we were engaged
in instruction, around this ideaof direct variation and inverse
variation, and so I had toincorporate differentiation as
well, and so what I did was Icame up with some stories.
One of them was my dog is lostand I'm offering $500 reward.
(14:28):
The amount of money you getdepends on how many of you are
in the group that find her.
Another one might have beenwe're going on a field trip and
it costs X amount of dollars foreach student to go.
Depending on how many studentsgo is how much the bus is going
to charge us.
So I just I came up with theseideas, these stories, these
scenarios that my kids couldreally relate to.
(14:51):
They understand going on afield trip.
They understand someone's dogis lost and I'm going to have to
find the dog and I can get thisreward money.
And then the differentiationpiece of that was with my higher
flying students.
I just gave them the situationsand had them, or the scenarios,
and said you know, figure thisout, like how, what are some
values that might be realisticwith these scenarios?
(15:14):
And then with my students thatwere below grade level, I
actually gave them the samescenarios, but I started them at
a different place where Iprovided tables of values and I
had actually put some values inthe tables already.
So really, there's, they didnot have to.
There were not as many decisionpoints for that group.
(15:35):
So then the way we ended theactivity was with my
below-grade-level learners.
I had given them a list ofcharacteristics of direct and
inverse variations and I askedthem to create a bulletin board
out of the characteristics ofeach, so they were able to
create their list.
Their characteristics werealready written on sentence
(15:55):
strips for them, my above gradelevel students.
I just asked them to come upwith a list like what do you
notice about these?
And so then, even though therewas the differentiation piece,
we were able to come back wholegroup and compare our lists and
talk about okay, so together asa whole group, can we build a
list of these attributes ofdirect or inverse variation.
(16:19):
My students walked out of thatclassroom still talking about
that.
And so when my students engagedin something that was relevant
to them, an activity or taskthat was relevant to them, and
then created a kind of asynthesis of what was happening
in that lesson, they owned thatlesson and they understood it at
(16:42):
a deeper level because they hadexperienced it.
Ashley Shaw (16:46):
Can I tell you, your example is interesting to
me because my sister a couple ofyears ago.
Your example is interesting tome because my sister a couple
years ago lost her dog in reallife and I did a similar thing
where I had them design lost dogflyers, not for her real dog.
I didn't make them do my workfor me, but Jessica gave me that
(17:06):
inspiration to help them kindof figure out how to do one-page
short communications.
What would you put on it that'sgoing to catch people's eye?
But still do that.
But it's just off topic, I know, but very interesting to me
that in math and English.
But we can still use the samereal world scenario.
Yeah, I love it.
Debbie Robertson (17:25):
You know, and you could partner with your
English teacher and say you know, I've got this coming up.
Can you have your studentsdesign these posters?
I think about, from an ELAperspective, this idea of making
sense of claims claims that areeffective, claims that are
ineffective.
And you know, how do we engagestudents with that?
(17:48):
Well, perhaps we just bring insome advertisements and we put
them up and we ask kids to sortthem into things.
You know, claims that they feelare effective and claims that
they feel are ineffective.
And the students get to thinkingabout this and talking about
this and debating this andexamining this, and that is what
leads to a deeper understanding.
(18:10):
It leads to a deeperunderstanding and a
cross-curricular idea, for thatwould be remember the old
toothpaste commercial about fourout of five dentists recommend
a certain brand of toothpaste.
You know, having studentsdebate is that effective, is it
ineffective?
And then in math, think aboutwell, if they only ask five
dentists, would that be aneffective use of that?
(18:31):
So then a cross-curricularconnection to that would be then
in their math class.
If we've decided as a group oras individual students that yeah
, four out of five dentists youknow suggest this toothpaste, I
think that's effective andsomeone else may think it's
ineffective may think it'sineffective.
Then in the math classroom wemay think about or talk about
(18:52):
okay, what does it mean for fourout of five dentists to say
they recommend this toothpaste?
What if they only ask fivedentists?
Would it be different than ifthey asked 10,000 dentists?
And it's still.
The ratio of dentists that saidthat they preferred this type of
toothpaste was four to one thatsaid that they did not prefer
(19:13):
this type of toothpaste.
So there are a lot of realworld opportunities and
scenarios that we can use toengage kids in developing this
understanding.
And the part of understandingthat is so powerful and when we
talk about designing lessonsthat help students develop that
(19:34):
understanding is that studentswho have a deep understanding
not just this superficialknowledge of how to do something
, but just the understanding ofwhy it works and how to use it
and how to apply it is that theycan take those understandings
and then apply them outside ofthe science classroom or the
(19:55):
math classroom or the ELAclassroom to other curricula or
to the real world that they livein.
These lead to rich discussionsand it fills their toolbox with
confidence and thinking andreasoning strategies that they
can apply inside the classroomand in their real life.
Ashley Shaw (20:17):
Well, I love that.
I always try to look for realworld connections, but I love
the idea of connecting withcross-subject teachers so that
you're working on the sameproblem and seeing how this real
problem that you're working onthat might be something you deal
with in real life like a lostdog.
It affects you in math, itaffects you in English, it
affects you in science.
I'm sure scientists could studylike the fence or something to
(20:42):
go on a hunt to look for the dog.
Debbie Robertson (20:44):
I don't know.
Ashley Shaw (20:45):
I love that idea though.
Debbie Robertson (20:47):
Yeah.
Or even you know, the sciencelesson that goes along with that
could be the weather how doesthe weather impact?
You know?
How far does a dog travel andwhat about the terrain.
So there's just so many thingsthat you can support.
This idea of this applies toall subjects and to your real
life.
I know my students wouldsometimes.
(21:09):
Sometimes they would say, hey,like we did this in science.
Yeah, you did, because this isa usable skill, you know, and
this is a life skill that'sgoing to apply in multiple
situations and multiplescenarios.
So anytime students see theconnection, that piques their
interest as well, because thenthey it kind of creates this
(21:31):
need to know.
Oh, I need to pay attention tothis because I want to know this
, because this is going to tohelp me and support me in other
areas.
So it's not just an isolated,that's a math thing and that's a
science topic and that's an ALAtopic.
No, these things all supportthe whole student.
Yeah, no, these things allsupport the whole student, yeah.
(21:56):
So and again, and you know,every day is not going to be a
super engaging, exciting lesson,we just do not have time for
every day to be like that butwhen we are learning the factual
knowledge in a classroom.
We need to know, and ourstudents need to know, that
today may not be a party, butthere's a party coming where
(22:17):
we're going to use this andwe're going to engage in
discourse around this and we'regoing to do something fun with
this and something that'srelevant and something that
means something to our students.
Ashley Shaw (22:30):
I really love what you just said.
That is something that Istruggle with I think I said it
in a couple of episodes ago, soI'm kind of repeating myself
here, but I think you gave adifferent perspective on it is
the idea that we had a lesson on.
We had a episode on engagementand I was like, oh, I struggle
with wanting every single lessonto be engaging and I don't want
them to come in and be like, oh, wanting every single lesson to
(22:52):
be engaging and I don't wantthem to come in and be like, oh,
today we're talking aboutgrammar and it's like how do you
make grammar fun?
But I love your idea of okay,today is the party prep.
It's not the party.
We have to prep for that partyso that we can do a fun engaging
lesson next week, but we haveto know the grammar, we have to
put up the streamers, we have toorder the cake before we can
(23:12):
have that party.
Debbie Robertson (23:14):
So I really love that analogy, Absolutely,
Absolutely, yeah.
Again, like someone's got toclean the house.
If we're going to have a party,the house has to get cleaned.
So you know, the workup may notbe fun, but, man, the party's
going to be, it's going to bereally good and we're going to
have a lot of fun with it.
I think this, when we areplanning and when we are
(23:35):
designing these experiences inwhich our students will gain
this deeper understanding thatgoes just beyond learning a
concept but really understandingthe concept, I think that we
have to get out of the mindsetof covering our standards.
You know, years ago thecomplaint was always that our
(23:59):
standards were an inch deep anda mile wide.
And then we had this pushtoward new standards, whether
they were revised statestandards or national standards
that shifted our focus to beingan inch wide and a mile deep.
But unfortunately, the mindsethas not permeated every
(24:22):
classroom.
And so I think, in the planningprocess, when you are looking
at your standards and you'redigging into your standards and
you're thinking about yourassessment items, I think that a
great thing to think about, animportant thing to think about,
is this idea of what are mygrade level concepts, what are
(24:47):
the big ideas that my students,if they walk out of my classroom
knowing these five things orhaving a deep understanding of
these five things, what wouldthose be?
For instance, in seventh grademath.
That if my students walk out ofmy classroom rock solid in
proportional reasoning andunderstanding, reasoning and
(25:09):
understanding I have set them ona path of success for future
math, future endeavors, whateverthey want to do post-secondary.
So I am responsible for alwayseven these little supporting
standards.
To go back and say, how do welook at this through a
(25:30):
proportional lens?
Or how do we look at thisthrough number sense?
How do we use number sense?
So I just lesson planning is aprocess and successful teaching
and learning do not happen byaccident.
They have to be orchestratedand intentional.
And teaching instruction is notabout simply preparing them for
(25:57):
a test, although having thoseassessment items in mind as they
indicate what mastery of thestandard looks like, is
important.
But teaching and learning ismore about preparing students to
be successful post-secondary,whatever that looks like for
them.
Because we have to think aboutwe're preparing them for jobs
(26:18):
that don't even exist andthere's some uncertainty about
that.
But what is not uncertain isthat we must do better.
We have to provide them withlearning that transcends our
content and even the schoolbuilding, and when our students
are fully prepared, they becomeconfident risk takers, and that
(26:42):
serves to benefit theircommunity and society as a whole
.
Ashley Shaw (26:46):
Well, I love those.
I do want to do like a littlewrap up where I tell you what I
learned from you today and youtell me if I learned what I was
supposed to learn.
Yeah, yeah, I have been takingmy notes.
I like a good student, lookingat what my actual standards are,
(27:10):
what do I want them to takeaway from the class when they
leave and figuring out how I candesign lessons that actually
lead to that, as opposed to whatdo I want the lessons to be,
and then hope they go to theassessment.
So that's my first step.
And then the second thing is,once I actually start designing
the lessons that use them tohelp them see real-world
(27:33):
connections to what they'relearning, I can focus on having
them think and explore, butthey're still targeted towards
that final objective.
Other things, really good ideasthat you gave me partner with
other grade levels, other peoplein my department and the one
(27:56):
that I really had never thoughtabout, other subjects, so that
we can use common examples thatthey can put through all the
different things so that theyreally get it Sure.
And then, of course, rememberthat sometimes your lessons are
the party prep, not the party,and you have to get ready for
that fun, engaging lesson bydoing the menial labor that
(28:17):
maybe we don't always like to doin class.
Debbie Robertson (28:21):
Yeah, that's good.
Ashley Shaw (28:23):
Okay, good, I'm glad that I followed along with
you.
Debbie Robertson (28:27):
Yes, yes, that's a good summary.
Ashley Shaw (28:30):
Yeah, okay, and thank you so much for these tips
.
The bell you just heard meanswe're almost out of time, but
before you leave, will you giveme some homework to put these
tips into practice?
Debbie Robertson (28:45):
Yes.
So here's what I would give youas homework.
I would obviously engage in thebackwards design planning, that
model of planning, but I wouldtake it even a step further.
And so here's what yourhomework is.
Your homework is to think aboutyour grade level content and
(29:06):
come up with five to six bigideas.
Five to six big ideas, that bigconcepts.
What is your grade level, whatare the concepts that your grade
level are grounded in, andchart those out, and so that
when you're designing theseother lessons, how can you tie
(29:27):
those back to one of those bigideas?
And so that your studentscontinue to spiral back around
to this idea of, like one of thebig concepts that's in your
grade level.
So that would be my homework,for you was come up with a list
of the big ideas and majorconcepts of your grade level.
Ashley Shaw (29:46):
All right, well, I will do that, and everybody
listening at home, feel free todo your homework too and share
with us on social Debbie, thankyou so much for coming today.
This has been a lot of fun andI've learned a lot.
Thanks, ashley, I appreciateyou.
Have a great rest of your day,you, too.
Bye-bye.
Daniel Rock (30:07):
What did you think about that, Ashley?
Did you find that helpful?
Ashley Shaw (30:11):
Of course I did.
Now, whether or not I makemyself actually plan that's to
be seen, but if I do sit downand do a plan, I feel like I
have some really great tips toget me started.
Daniel Rock (30:22):
So there's some things that she said and did
with you that I want tohighlight for anyone out there
who's working with coaches or isa coach and is sort of
listening from that perspective.
One thing I heard was how shestarted the conversation was
asking you tell me how you plan.
So she kind of diagnosed bigpicture, Well, she has a
(30:46):
planning issue and instead oftelling you ways to plan better,
she asked you to describe yourplanning process.
Ashley Shaw (30:53):
Yes, she did.
Daniel Rock (30:54):
And great coaches always seek first to understand,
then to be understood, as MrStephen Covey teaches us.
So I really appreciated the waythat she started off with that
question and then listened toyou and then peppered you with
more questions to betterunderstand what's happening.
Ashley Shaw (31:15):
And can I tell you you just did something that she
also did, that I liked when shedid it, so I'll also compliment
you which is she didn't just useher own expertise, she brought
in other experts to support whatshe was saying, and I really
appreciated that.
It made me feel like she haddone her research.
Daniel Rock (31:33):
Yeah, great coaches need to be fluent in the latest
and greatest of what works ineducation and not necessarily
work just from what our ownexperience is, because what
worked for me doesn'tnecessarily predict what's going
to work for you, and we want tobe able to use things that can
(31:55):
predict success, like if we dothis, there's a high likelihood.
So I think that's reallyimportant.
I'm glad you highlighted that.
Another thing I saw her do wasdefine the key terms that she
wanted to use.
Notice how she really zeroed inon design and talked about not
(32:16):
just lesson planning butdesigning a unit, and she
defined lesson planning as theseare the steps I'm gonna do in
my lesson as I interact andengage with the students.
Lesson design she defined aswhat are my assessments, what
(32:37):
are my assignments, what are thecheckpoints.
Think of it as designing ahouse where everything needs to
be and how it's going to stay upand be sturdy, versus building
the house as it goes, versus,you know, building the house as
it goes.
And she was very clear aboutdefining the term and then
comparing two terms so that youcould really have a better
(33:01):
understanding.
Whenever you compare andcontrast, it clarifies in our
minds what it is you're tryingto explain.
Ashley Shaw (33:09):
Yes, that's a really good point.
It does help when I can seewhat it is and see what it isn't
.
Daniel Rock (33:16):
Yeah, and that's just the way the brain works.
Teachers know that being inclassrooms when you can show
students the similarities anddifferences between two concepts
, it helps them betterunderstand those concepts.
And I think I just did thisnext one.
The last thing I want to talkabout is she spoke to you in
(33:38):
analogies to help clarify whatit means to design and plan.
She talked about planning aparty right and talked about all
how, if you want to have a goodparty, it's not just ordering
the balloons, ordering the food,cleaning up ahead of time, but
(33:59):
thinking about big picture.
Okay, what do I want my people'sexperience to be?
What do I want them to get outof this party?
What kind of dancing do I want?
What's the mood of the party,what's the vibe, what's the
intention?
Those are all design questions.
So one thing as a coach, partof our job is making some
(34:20):
complicated ideas understandableto a large group of people.
Communicating and usinganalogies to make your point
clear can really help, and again, that transfers to the
classroom.
So, with teachers to students,helping the teacher create
analogies in their classroom isgreat, and even better is if
(34:42):
your students make analogiesabout what they're learning.
That's extremely a powerfulpractice.
Ashley Shaw (34:49):
Yeah, and I know that analogy the party analogy I
struggle so much with.
I don't want any of my lessonsto be boring and I know I
analogy the party analogy Istruggle so much with.
I don't want any of my lessonsto be boring and I know I've
said that in a couple ofepisodes.
But as soon as she said theparty analogy, it clicked in my
head and I was like, oh, that'sexactly how I have to think
about it.
I mean it works so well tothrow that in, because I have
planned parties before and I doknow how much planning it takes
(35:09):
and I do know that it's more funwhen you've done that planning.
So it made perfect sense to me.
Daniel Rock (35:15):
And it goes back to helping people learn something
new based on what they alreadyknow and connecting the familiar
with the unfamiliar, and it'ssomething that any you know.
As a coach, your job isbasically to teach adults, but
hopefully you can use it andthen help your teachers use that
strategy in their classroom.
I'm sure Debbie does that allthe time when she does model
(35:38):
lessons and classes, as sheknows she does a lot of.
Ashley Shaw (35:41):
Yeah, I love using analogies.
I love that she used analogiesand I can definitely see that
how that's helpful.
So thank you again for comingin and telling us what makes a
good coach.
As always, your tips are great.
Daniel Rock (35:55):
I look forward to seeing what you have to learn
next time.
Ashley Shaw (35:58):
All right, and I look forward to meeting your
next coach.
Thanks, all right, bye-bye, bye.
Hi and welcome back .
I'm Ashley Shaw.
I will be learning somethingwith you today and to get us
started on what we're going tolearn, here is my regular SREB
coach, Daniel Rock.
Daniel Rock (00:14):
Hey Ashley, how's it going?
Ashley Shaw (00:16):
It's pretty good.
It's the end of the week.
That's always nice, absolutely.
Daniel Rock (00:21):
How's it?
Ashley Shaw (00:21):
going for you.
Daniel Rock (00:22):
Oh, it's wonderful, Wonderful.
So what's on your mind today,ashley?
What do you need some help with?
Ashley Shaw (00:29):
So I can be a little bit unorganized sometimes
.
Anybody that knows me will notbe surprised to hear that and
that sometimes can be a problemas a teacher because it means
maybe I don't spend enough timeon planning like I should and so
I want to be better aboutplanning out my lessons.
(00:50):
Do you have anybody that canhelp me with that?
Daniel Rock (00:54):
I'm thinking.
One of our senior leadershipcoaches, debbie Robertson, is a
master at design, thinking andhelping teachers do all of those
great things that we know areimportant, like beginning with
the end in mind and startingwith standards and then moving
(01:18):
to assessments and having a verydeliberate and coherent process
.
So why don't we have you meetwith Debbie Robertson, and I
think you'll have a greatexperience learning with her.
Ashley Shaw (01:30):
That sounds great.
I'm looking forward to workingwith her.
Daniel Rock (01:33):
After you talk to her, I'll come back and look at
some of the ways that she workedwith you as an instructional
coach and some of the strategiesshe employed that people out
there who are working with otheradults might want to try.
Ashley Shaw (01:45):
All right, well, that sounds perfect.
Let's bring in Debbie, and I'lltalk to you later.
Hello Debbie, thank you so muchfor being here today.
Debbie Robertson (01:55):
Thanks, Ashley .
I'm super excited to be withyou.
Ashley Shaw (01:57):
We like to start with having the coach do a
little bit of an introduction tothemselves, just so we know
who's coaching us today.
Debbie Robertson (02:04):
Okay, yeah, so I taught in a math classroom
for 13 years at the middleschool level and then I spent
the next two years as aninstructional coach that was
based at the district inPensacola, florida, and really
focused on schools that were inturnaround status, and during
(02:27):
those two years I did get theopportunity to teach an algebra
class and then a geometry class.
So my experience has beenmiddle and high.
And then I did that for twoyears and then I was recruited
by SREB nine years ago and I'vebeen with SREB ever since.
I currently serve as a seniorleadership coach, but spend most
(02:52):
of my time in the role of aninstructional coach, and I'm
excited to be with you today.
Ashley Shaw (02:58):
Well, thank you so much for coming.
I love hearing from mathteachers because, as an English
person myself, math is not mybest subject, so I respect math
teachers a lot.
Debbie Robertson (03:10):
Well, you know , the thing about math is, you
can get better at it every day,so everyone's a math person.
Ashley Shaw (03:17):
That's good to know .
I asked Dan to find me a coachthat could help me with an issue
I've been struggling with,which is something I'm sure a
lot of teachers deal with.
I teach the material and I'mlike, oh, they've got it, they
understand it, and then we mightget to an assessment.
Or in my classes they mightwrite an essay and I'm like, oh,
they did not get it.
(03:38):
I would like some advice on howto not only teach the material,
but teach the material in a waythat's going to actually get
them to understand the material.
Can you help with that?
Debbie Robertson (03:52):
Sure, yeah, yeah.
Ashley Shaw (03:53):
This is a common problem that teachers
experienced and the first thingI'd like to ask is what does
your planning process currentlylook like?
I have to admit that a lot ofmy planning.
At this point, I feel like I'msuch an expert I've been
teaching for so long.
My planning is oh where's thatlesson from last year that I
already did on this topic, whichis not the best way to plan.
(04:17):
I usually do have an actuallesson plan, but sometimes it's
older and I don't always updateit like I should.
Debbie Robertson (04:24):
Gotcha.
Yeah, Ashley.
So that's a common problem thatteachers experience.
They do what's comfortable tothem and a lot of times they do
that with good intentions, withgreat intentions.
Their mindset is I've got a lotof stuff to cover and I don't
have enough time for planning,so I'm just going to go with
(04:47):
what I've done before, Eventhough, according to what you
said, we have evidence that'snot necessarily being effective
for our students.
Ashley Shaw (05:06):
I definitely know I'm guilty of.
If the lesson seems to go well,I consider it a good lesson,
even if the assessment shows itdidn't go as well as I thought.
So if they seem to be absorbingit in class and they seem to be
answering questions and theyseem to be getting it, I'm like,
yes, I'm going to redo thislesson, even though they got it
in class but didn't get it forthe assessment.
So that's definitely where Ineed to have that mental
connection.
I guess that idea of okay, it'snot working, like I think it's
(05:27):
working, I do need to adjust,sure sure.
Debbie Robertson (05:30):
Yes, that speaks to the topic of, or the
idea of, coherence and planning,right?
So how do we make sure thatwhat our students are
experiencing and how we'rehaving them demonstrate
understanding in our classroomis really aligned with the
standard and the assessmentsthat are based on the standards?
(05:51):
And so how do we make thathappen?
Well, we begin with ourplanning process by digging into
our standards every time.
We teach them, year after year.
And so when I say digging intothe standards, I mean really
spending time collaboratingaround the expectations of the
standard, especially the verbsof the standard, and here's what
(06:14):
I mean by that.
I can teach my students how toperform an experiment that
demonstrates a certainphenomenon let's say weathering
a certain phenomenon, let's sayweathering.
However, if the standardspecifically states that
students are expected to designan experiment that demonstrates
weathering that's a completelydifferent skill set and by
(06:35):
interpreting it myself andsaying, oh, I'm going to show
them how I'm going to have themdemonstrate weathering through
this experiment and never havethem reach the level of creation
of an experiment, then I havenot truly prepared them.
My instruction does not alignwith, and is not coherent with,
the assessment level at whichthey're going to have to
(06:57):
demonstrate their understanding.
So we do this on a regularbasis.
Every time we sit down to plan,we always go back to the
standards to make sure that weare aligned with the intent of
the standard.
What exactly is the standardexpecting them to?
How is it expecting them todemonstrate understanding?
And then, after we develop thisrobust understanding of our
(07:21):
standards and that requires time, understanding of our standards
and that requires time it doestake time and it takes a space
in which you can engage indiscourse within your community
of educators.
Those are conversations thatare had within your grade level
as well as horizontally andvertically, because we need to
(07:41):
think about not just only whataffects our grade level, but
what are those deepunderstandings that set our
students up for future success.
So then, after we really getclarity on our standards and we
come into agreement on ourstandards and what they're
asking students or how they'reasking students to demonstrate
(08:01):
mastery of that standard, we getinto this idea of backwards
design.
So we have an idea, we have aclarity on what our standard is
asking and then we go and welook at how our standard will be
assessed.
So, if you have access to stateassessment release items or even
descriptors of test items.
(08:23):
We would surely make use ofthose.
But I'll also have my teacherswork through any benchmark exams
or unit tests whatever isavailable to them to provide
insight in how students will beassessed.
I prefer that these assessmentsbe written external from the
(08:43):
classroom, and what I mean bythat is it's really nice to have
benchmarks or moduleassessments or state items that
are written by another group ofpeople who have really dug into
the standard.
Because if I'm in the classroomdesigning my own assessments, a
lot of times I do it in reverseorder and I design my
(09:07):
instruction and then I create myassessments, whereas your
assessments should be createddirectly from the standards and
then your instruction shouldalign to the standards through
this idea of how they're goingto be assessed.
And then I have teachersactually work through the
assessments, not just again, notjust look at them and say, oh
(09:29):
yeah, that's a question onmean-media mode or whatever.
So we have to work through themand talk about and have
discourse around.
What exactly are studentsexpected to do?
Where are going to be themisconceptions?
Where are the students going tohave errors in their thinking?
For example, if I see anassessment item that deals with
(09:54):
measures of center.
I may think yep, got it coveredthat we talked about
mean-meaning mode.
My kids can find mean-meaningmode like nobody's business.
And then the assessment itemactually says here are some
measures of center mean medianmode.
Can you create a set of data inwhich these measures of center
(10:15):
would be applicable?
Again, that's a completelydifferent skill set than me
giving my students a set of dataand saying can you find these
measures of center?
So we've aligned to ourstandards, we are aware of the
assessment expectations and thenwe begin designing our
(10:36):
instruction.
This idea of lesson planning.
I think about Jason Kennedy,who wrote the book let's Stop
Teaching and Start DesigningLessons.
He says that lesson planningshould be focused on what the
teacher will be saying,assigning or assessing, but then
lesson design focuses on whatthe students will be discussing
(10:58):
and how they will demonstratewith, engage with or demonstrate
their understanding.
So the lesson planning involvesalignment and even pacing.
And then lesson design involvesthe actual learning experience.
And then lesson design involvesthe actual learning experience.
Ashley Shaw (11:16):
Teachers plan the coherence piece, but design for
the learning and understandingpiece.
Okay, and kind of speaking tothat or what I think that you're
saying here.
I know something that Istruggle with is that disconnect
with the planning that Idesigned my lessons to be really
fun and really engaging, to getthem in class learning, but
then I don't necessarily havethat planning portion where I'm
(11:38):
connecting that to theassessment.
So the assessment is the dryboring.
These are the facts that youneed, but the lesson is like
hands on, interactive and I'dnever put in the design portion
of the lesson that connection tohelp them make the connections
to the assessment.
Debbie Robertson (11:54):
Yeah, yeah.
And so you know, and you hearpeople say I'm not going to
teach to the test, I'm not.
Well, if your tests are alignedto the standards, then why
would you not want to preparethem for demonstration of
mastery of the standards?
And so I think sometimes asteachers, we get bogged down in
(12:16):
the idea of I want my kids tohave fun, I want them to be
engaged, I want to hear themtalking, but we don't really pay
attention to, or we don't payenough attention to, what are
they talking about.
So that's where that idea ofdesigning instruction that, yes,
(12:36):
it is engaging, I do need mykids up and moving and talking
and debating and examining andexploring, but I need them to do
that in such a way that theydevelop this deep understanding
so that when they do have todemonstrate what they know on
perhaps a dry, boring exam item,that they are so well prepared
(13:01):
and confident and they persevere, that they are going to be able
to express their understandingin a way that meets the mastery
of the standard as designated bythe assessment item.
Ashley Shaw (13:14):
So do you have any tips or ideas on how exactly to
do that?
Debbie Robertson (13:20):
Yeah, so I think about as we look at our
standards and we think about thelevel at which or the verbiage
of the standard at which thestudents are going to have to
demonstrate understanding.
That's the serious part oflesson planning.
I think that you can createengaging lessons in a way that
(13:44):
promote student thinking.
You know Ron Richard talksabout learning is a result of
thinking, and so we really needour students to think deeply
about the big ideas of our gradelevel.
I was teaching my students andthis was an inclusion class of
(14:05):
40 students, and I was teachingmy students, or we were engaged
in instruction, around this ideaof direct variation and inverse
variation, and so I had toincorporate differentiation as
well, and so what I did was Icame up with some stories.
One of them was my dog is lostand I'm offering $500 reward.
(14:28):
The amount of money you getdepends on how many of you are
in the group that find her.
Another one might have beenwe're going on a field trip and
it costs X amount of dollars foreach student to go.
Depending on how many studentsgo is how much the bus is going
to charge us.
So I just I came up with theseideas, these stories, these
scenarios that my kids couldreally relate to.
(14:51):
They understand going on afield trip.
They understand someone's dogis lost and I'm going to have to
find the dog and I can get thisreward money.
And then the differentiationpiece of that was with my higher
flying students.
I just gave them the situationsand had them, or the scenarios,
and said you know, figure thisout, like how, what are some
values that might be realisticwith these scenarios?
(15:14):
And then with my students thatwere below grade level, I
actually gave them the samescenarios, but I started them at
a different place where Iprovided tables of values and I
had actually put some values inthe tables already.
So really, there's, they didnot have to.
There were not as many decisionpoints for that group.
(15:35):
So then the way we ended theactivity was with my
below-grade-level learners.
I had given them a list ofcharacteristics of direct and
inverse variations and I askedthem to create a bulletin board
out of the characteristics ofeach, so they were able to
create their list.
Their characteristics werealready written on sentence
(15:55):
strips for them, my above gradelevel students.
I just asked them to come upwith a list like what do you
notice about these?
And so then, even though therewas the differentiation piece,
we were able to come back wholegroup and compare our lists and
talk about okay, so together asa whole group, can we build a
list of these attributes ofdirect or inverse variation.
(16:19):
My students walked out of thatclassroom still talking about
that.
And so when my students engagedin something that was relevant
to them, an activity or taskthat was relevant to them, and
then created a kind of asynthesis of what was happening
in that lesson, they owned thatlesson and they understood it at
(16:42):
a deeper level because they hadexperienced it.
Ashley Shaw (16:46):
Can I tell you, your example is interesting to
me because my sister a couple ofyears ago.
Your example is interesting tome because my sister a couple
years ago lost her dog in reallife and I did a similar thing
where I had them design lost dogflyers, not for her real dog.
I didn't make them do my workfor me, but Jessica gave me that
(17:06):
inspiration to help them kindof figure out how to do one-page
short communications.
What would you put on it that'sgoing to catch people's eye?
But still do that.
But it's just off topic, I know, but very interesting to me
that in math and English.
But we can still use the samereal world scenario.
Yeah, I love it.
Debbie Robertson (17:25):
You know, and you could partner with your
English teacher and say you know, I've got this coming up.
Can you have your studentsdesign these posters?
I think about, from an ELAperspective, this idea of making
sense of claims claims that areeffective, claims that are
ineffective.
And you know, how do we engagestudents with that?
(17:48):
Well, perhaps we just bring insome advertisements and we put
them up and we ask kids to sortthem into things.
You know, claims that they feelare effective and claims that
they feel are ineffective.
And the students get to thinkingabout this and talking about
this and debating this andexamining this, and that is what
leads to a deeper understanding.
(18:10):
It leads to a deeperunderstanding and a
cross-curricular idea, for thatwould be remember the old
toothpaste commercial about fourout of five dentists recommend
a certain brand of toothpaste.
You know, having studentsdebate is that effective, is it
ineffective?
And then in math, think aboutwell, if they only ask five
dentists, would that be aneffective use of that?
(18:31):
So then a cross-curricularconnection to that would be then
in their math class.
If we've decided as a group oras individual students that yeah
, four out of five dentists youknow suggest this toothpaste, I
think that's effective andsomeone else may think it's
ineffective may think it'sineffective.
Then in the math classroom wemay think about or talk about
(18:52):
okay, what does it mean for fourout of five dentists to say
they recommend this toothpaste?
What if they only ask fivedentists?
Would it be different than ifthey asked 10,000 dentists?
And it's still.
The ratio of dentists that saidthat they preferred this type of
toothpaste was four to one thatsaid that they did not prefer
(19:13):
this type of toothpaste.
So there are a lot of realworld opportunities and
scenarios that we can use toengage kids in developing this
understanding.
And the part of understandingthat is so powerful and when we
talk about designing lessonsthat help students develop that
(19:34):
understanding is that studentswho have a deep understanding
not just this superficialknowledge of how to do something
, but just the understanding ofwhy it works and how to use it
and how to apply it is that theycan take those understandings
and then apply them outside ofthe science classroom or the
(19:55):
math classroom or the ELAclassroom to other curricula or
to the real world that they livein.
These lead to rich discussionsand it fills their toolbox with
confidence and thinking andreasoning strategies that they
can apply inside the classroomand in their real life.
Ashley Shaw (20:17):
Well, I love that.
I always try to look for realworld connections, but I love
the idea of connecting withcross-subject teachers so that
you're working on the sameproblem and seeing how this real
problem that you're working onthat might be something you deal
with in real life like a lostdog.
It affects you in math, itaffects you in English, it
affects you in science.
I'm sure scientists could studylike the fence or something to
(20:42):
go on a hunt to look for the dog.
Debbie Robertson (20:44):
I don't know.
Ashley Shaw (20:45):
I love that idea though.
Debbie Robertson (20:47):
Yeah.
Or even you know, the sciencelesson that goes along with that
could be the weather how doesthe weather impact?
You know?
How far does a dog travel andwhat about the terrain.
So there's just so many thingsthat you can support.
This idea of this applies toall subjects and to your real
life.
I know my students wouldsometimes.
(21:09):
Sometimes they would say, hey,like we did this in science.
Yeah, you did, because this isa usable skill, you know, and
this is a life skill that'sgoing to apply in multiple
situations and multiplescenarios.
So anytime students see theconnection, that piques their
interest as well, because thenthey it kind of creates this
(21:31):
need to know.
Oh, I need to pay attention tothis because I want to know this
, because this is going to tohelp me and support me in other
areas.
So it's not just an isolated,that's a math thing and that's a
science topic and that's an ALAtopic.
No, these things all supportthe whole student.
Yeah, no, these things allsupport the whole student, yeah.
(21:56):
So and again, and you know,every day is not going to be a
super engaging, exciting lesson,we just do not have time for
every day to be like that butwhen we are learning the factual
knowledge in a classroom.
We need to know, and ourstudents need to know, that
today may not be a party, butthere's a party coming where
(22:17):
we're going to use this andwe're going to engage in
discourse around this and we'regoing to do something fun with
this and something that'srelevant and something that
means something to our students.
Ashley Shaw (22:30):
I really love what you just said.
That is something that Istruggle with I think I said it
in a couple of episodes ago, soI'm kind of repeating myself
here, but I think you gave adifferent perspective on it is
the idea that we had a lesson on.
We had a episode on engagementand I was like, oh, I struggle
with wanting every single lessonto be engaging and I don't want
them to come in and be like, oh, wanting every single lesson to
(22:52):
be engaging and I don't wantthem to come in and be like, oh,
today we're talking aboutgrammar and it's like how do you
make grammar fun?
But I love your idea of okay,today is the party prep.
It's not the party.
We have to prep for that partyso that we can do a fun engaging
lesson next week, but we haveto know the grammar, we have to
put up the streamers, we have toorder the cake before we can
(23:12):
have that party.
Debbie Robertson (23:14):
So I really love that analogy, Absolutely,
Absolutely, yeah.
Again, like someone's got toclean the house.
If we're going to have a party,the house has to get cleaned.
So you know, the workup may notbe fun, but, man, the party's
going to be, it's going to bereally good and we're going to
have a lot of fun with it.
I think this, when we areplanning and when we are
(23:35):
designing these experiences inwhich our students will gain
this deeper understanding thatgoes just beyond learning a
concept but really understandingthe concept, I think that we
have to get out of the mindsetof covering our standards.
You know, years ago thecomplaint was always that our
(23:59):
standards were an inch deep anda mile wide.
And then we had this pushtoward new standards, whether
they were revised statestandards or national standards
that shifted our focus to beingan inch wide and a mile deep.
But unfortunately, the mindsethas not permeated every
(24:22):
classroom.
And so I think, in the planningprocess, when you are looking
at your standards and you'redigging into your standards and
you're thinking about yourassessment items, I think that a
great thing to think about, animportant thing to think about,
is this idea of what are mygrade level concepts, what are
(24:47):
the big ideas that my students,if they walk out of my classroom
knowing these five things orhaving a deep understanding of
these five things, what wouldthose be?
For instance, in seventh grademath.
That if my students walk out ofmy classroom rock solid in
proportional reasoning andunderstanding, reasoning and
(25:09):
understanding I have set them ona path of success for future
math, future endeavors, whateverthey want to do post-secondary.
So I am responsible for alwayseven these little supporting
standards.
To go back and say, how do welook at this through a
(25:30):
proportional lens?
Or how do we look at thisthrough number sense?
How do we use number sense?
So I just lesson planning is aprocess and successful teaching
and learning do not happen byaccident.
They have to be orchestratedand intentional.
And teaching instruction is notabout simply preparing them for
(25:57):
a test, although having thoseassessment items in mind as they
indicate what mastery of thestandard looks like, is
important.
But teaching and learning ismore about preparing students to
be successful post-secondary,whatever that looks like for
them.
Because we have to think aboutwe're preparing them for jobs
(26:18):
that don't even exist andthere's some uncertainty about
that.
But what is not uncertain isthat we must do better.
We have to provide them withlearning that transcends our
content and even the schoolbuilding, and when our students
are fully prepared, they becomeconfident risk takers, and that
(26:42):
serves to benefit theircommunity and society as a whole
.
Ashley Shaw (26:46):
Well, I love those.
I do want to do like a littlewrap up where I tell you what I
learned from you today and youtell me if I learned what I was
supposed to learn.
Yeah, yeah, I have been takingmy notes.
I like a good student, lookingat what my actual standards are,
(27:10):
what do I want them to takeaway from the class when they
leave and figuring out how I candesign lessons that actually
lead to that, as opposed to whatdo I want the lessons to be,
and then hope they go to theassessment.
So that's my first step.
And then the second thing is,once I actually start designing
the lessons that use them tohelp them see real-world
(27:33):
connections to what they'relearning, I can focus on having
them think and explore, butthey're still targeted towards
that final objective.
Other things, really good ideasthat you gave me partner with
other grade levels, other peoplein my department and the one
(27:56):
that I really had never thoughtabout, other subjects, so that
we can use common examples thatthey can put through all the
different things so that theyreally get it Sure.
And then, of course, rememberthat sometimes your lessons are
the party prep, not the party,and you have to get ready for
that fun, engaging lesson bydoing the menial labor that
(28:17):
maybe we don't always like to doin class.
Debbie Robertson (28:21):
Yeah, that's good.
Ashley Shaw (28:23):
Okay, good, I'm glad that I followed along with
you.
Debbie Robertson (28:27):
Yes, yes, that's a good summary.
Ashley Shaw (28:30):
Yeah, okay, and thank you so much for these tips
.
The bell you just heard meanswe're almost out of time, but
before you leave, will you giveme some homework to put these
tips into practice?
Debbie Robertson (28:45):
Yes.
So here's what I would give youas homework.
I would obviously engage in thebackwards design planning, that
model of planning, but I wouldtake it even a step further.
And so here's what yourhomework is.
Your homework is to think aboutyour grade level content and
(29:06):
come up with five to six bigideas.
Five to six big ideas, that bigconcepts.
What is your grade level, whatare the concepts that your grade
level are grounded in, andchart those out, and so that
when you're designing theseother lessons, how can you tie
(29:27):
those back to one of those bigideas?
And so that your studentscontinue to spiral back around
to this idea of, like one of thebig concepts that's in your
grade level.
So that would be my homework,for you was come up with a list
of the big ideas and majorconcepts of your grade level.
Ashley Shaw (29:46):
All right, well, I will do that, and everybody
listening at home, feel free todo your homework too and share
with us on social Debbie, thankyou so much for coming today.
This has been a lot of fun andI've learned a lot.
Thanks, ashley, I appreciateyou.
Have a great rest of your day,you, too.
Bye-bye.
Daniel Rock (30:07):
What did you think about that, Ashley?
Did you find that helpful?
Ashley Shaw (30:11):
Of course I did.
Now, whether or not I makemyself actually plan that's to
be seen, but if I do sit downand do a plan, I feel like I
have some really great tips toget me started.
Daniel Rock (30:22):
So there's some things that she said and did
with you that I want tohighlight for anyone out there
who's working with coaches or isa coach and is sort of
listening from that perspective.
One thing I heard was how shestarted the conversation was
asking you tell me how you plan.
So she kind of diagnosed bigpicture, Well, she has a
(30:46):
planning issue and instead oftelling you ways to plan better,
she asked you to describe yourplanning process.
Ashley Shaw (30:53):
Yes, she did.
Daniel Rock (30:54):
And great coaches always seek first to understand,
then to be understood, as MrStephen Covey teaches us.
So I really appreciated the waythat she started off with that
question and then listened toyou and then peppered you with
more questions to betterunderstand what's happening.
Ashley Shaw (31:15):
And can I tell you you just did something that she
also did, that I liked when shedid it, so I'll also compliment
you which is she didn't just useher own expertise, she brought
in other experts to support whatshe was saying, and I really
appreciated that.
It made me feel like she haddone her research.
Daniel Rock (31:33):
Yeah, great coaches need to be fluent in the latest
and greatest of what works ineducation and not necessarily
work just from what our ownexperience is, because what
worked for me doesn'tnecessarily predict what's going
to work for you, and we want tobe able to use things that can
(31:55):
predict success, like if we dothis, there's a high likelihood.
So I think that's reallyimportant.
I'm glad you highlighted that.
Another thing I saw her do wasdefine the key terms that she
wanted to use.
Notice how she really zeroed inon design and talked about not
(32:16):
just lesson planning butdesigning a unit, and she
defined lesson planning as theseare the steps I'm gonna do in
my lesson as I interact andengage with the students.
Lesson design she defined aswhat are my assessments, what
(32:37):
are my assignments, what are thecheckpoints.
Think of it as designing ahouse where everything needs to
be and how it's going to stay upand be sturdy, versus building
the house as it goes, versus,you know, building the house as
it goes.
And she was very clear aboutdefining the term and then
comparing two terms so that youcould really have a better
(33:01):
understanding.
Whenever you compare andcontrast, it clarifies in our
minds what it is you're tryingto explain.
Ashley Shaw (33:09):
Yes, that's a really good point.
It does help when I can seewhat it is and see what it isn't
.
Daniel Rock (33:16):
Yeah, and that's just the way the brain works.
Teachers know that being inclassrooms when you can show
students the similarities anddifferences between two concepts
, it helps them betterunderstand those concepts.
And I think I just did thisnext one.
The last thing I want to talkabout is she spoke to you in
(33:38):
analogies to help clarify whatit means to design and plan.
She talked about planning aparty right and talked about all
how, if you want to have a goodparty, it's not just ordering
the balloons, ordering the food,cleaning up ahead of time, but
(33:59):
thinking about big picture.
Okay, what do I want my people'sexperience to be?
What do I want them to get outof this party?
What kind of dancing do I want?
What's the mood of the party,what's the vibe, what's the
intention?
Those are all design questions.
So one thing as a coach, partof our job is making some
(34:20):
complicated ideas understandableto a large group of people.
Communicating and usinganalogies to make your point
clear can really help, and again, that transfers to the
classroom.
So, with teachers to students,helping the teacher create
analogies in their classroom isgreat, and even better is if
(34:42):
your students make analogiesabout what they're learning.
That's extremely a powerfulpractice.
Ashley Shaw (34:49):
Yeah, and I know that analogy the party analogy I
struggle so much with.
I don't want any of my lessonsto be boring and I know I
analogy the party analogy Istruggle so much with.
I don't want any of my lessonsto be boring and I know I've
said that in a couple ofepisodes.
But as soon as she said theparty analogy, it clicked in my
head and I was like, oh, that'sexactly how I have to think
about it.
I mean it works so well tothrow that in, because I have
planned parties before and I doknow how much planning it takes
(35:09):
and I do know that it's more funwhen you've done that planning.
So it made perfect sense to me.
Daniel Rock (35:15):
And it goes back to helping people learn something
new based on what they alreadyknow and connecting the familiar
with the unfamiliar, and it'ssomething that any you know.
As a coach, your job isbasically to teach adults, but
hopefully you can use it andthen help your teachers use that
strategy in their classroom.
I'm sure Debbie does that allthe time when she does model
(35:38):
lessons and classes, as sheknows she does a lot of.
Ashley Shaw (35:41):
Yeah, I love using analogies.
I love that she used analogiesand I can definitely see that
how that's helpful.
So thank you again for comingin and telling us what makes a
good coach.
As always, your tips are great.
Daniel Rock (35:55):
I look forward to seeing what you have to learn
next time.
Ashley Shaw (35:58):
All right, and I look forward to meeting your
next coach.
Thanks, all right, bye-bye, bye.
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