November 5, 2024 • 24 mins
Discover how to transform silence into vibrant conversations in your classroom with insights from our latest discussion. Join me, Ashley Shaw, alongside Dan Rock, as we unravel the secrets of fostering engaging student discourse with the help of Keisha King, a distinguished math instructional coach. Learn how to create a safe environment for students to express their thoughts and build confidence in speaking up. Keisha introduces her five practices for orchestrating productive mathematics discussions, offering a powerful framework that can enhance critical thinking and student interaction.
Through practical strategies like the jigsaw method, four corners activity and impactful sentence starters, we explore innovative ways to boost student participation and engagement. Our episode is packed with actionable advice and resources, including handouts on promoting meaningful discourse and the Think-Pair-Share strategy. Equip yourself with the tools to transform your classroom into a hub of dynamic discussions, where every student feels heard and valued. Tune in for a rich exploration of how to make your teaching environment more interactive and participatory.
Download our handouts for this episode:
1. 5 Practices for Orchestrating Discussions
2. Strategies to Promote Meaningful Student Discourse
3. Think-Pair-Share Strategy
The Southern Regional Education Board is a nonprofit, nonpartisan organization that works with states and schools to improve education at every level, from early childhood through doctoral education and the workforce.
Follow Us on Social:
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome back.
I'm Ashley Shaw.
I'll be your host today, andwith me, as usual, is Dan Rock,
my co-host.
Hi Dan, how are you?
Speaker 2 (00:11):
I am wonderful, Ashley.
I hope you're well.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
I am, and I am very ready for you to help me with my
issue for today.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
What is something that you're really trying to
focus on and improve this week?
Speaker 1 (00:26):
So in these episodes we have these great
conversations and I want to havethe same type of conversations
with my students.
The problem is they just sitthere and stare at me and I talk
and talk, and talk, and talkand talk and talk and then they
don't participate.
We had a lesson a while ago onasking great questions and that
has been helpful, but I want tokind of focus a little bit on
(00:50):
ways to bring them into thediscussion in general, not just
through great questions.
Do you have anybody that canhelp me create discourse in my
class?
Speaker 2 (00:59):
So to create discourse, you need to teach
students how to have an academicconversation, and a person who
I know has done that really welland has some real insights into
simple but effective ways isKeisha King.
She's one of our fantastic mathinstructional coaches, but the
(01:24):
work that she does will apply toeverybody.
I think she'll really help youa lot.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
All right, well, I'm looking forward to working with
her.
Thank you, no problem.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
I'd like to hear what she has to say.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
All right.
Well, I'll talk to you afterit's over and you can tell me
how you think it went.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
All right.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Hello, welcome to the podcast.
Thank you so much for cominghere.
How are you?
I'm great.
How are you?
Speaker 3 (02:09):
I am doing pretty well today, so thank you again
for coming Before.
Bachelor's is in math andcomputer science.
My master's is in matheducation, so my experience has
been in mostly middle and highschool education, but I have
supported elementary.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
All right, well, that sounds great.
I talked to Dan about what Iwas looking for this week and I
told him and I'm sure you've hadthis experience too.
I'm sure every teacher outthere has had this experience I
told him that I have really beenstruggling getting my students
to talk in class.
We have these class discussionsand I want them to be so great
(02:48):
and helpful to them, and thenthey just sit there and stare at
me.
Do you have any tips for us onhow to get students to join the
discourse, to talk when we haveclass discussion time?
Speaker 3 (03:01):
Yes, I'm going to start by asking you a question
what are you currently doingwith your students to try to
promote the conversation?
Speaker 1 (03:09):
So I tend to I hate to admit this, but I tend to I
come in with what I think isgoing to be this great
discussion and some questionsand then, when they don't
respond, I do one of two things.
One is I rely on the fewstudents in class who do talk
and it ends up being adiscussion between like three
students in the class.
Or I do something that wetalked about not doing in the
(03:33):
lesson with Jason Adair aboutwhen he talked about asking
great questions, where I don'twait for them to answer and join
the discussion.
I just I'm like oh, they don'tknow the answer, so let me just
tell them, and then I justdiscuss the whole thing myself
and it becomes a lecture, not adiscussion.
So those are my two methods.
They work very well.
(03:54):
Gotcha, gotcha.
Speaker 3 (03:55):
Well, wait time is definitely critical for student
discourse, because when we'redoing student discourse we want
to promote critical thinking, sowe have to give students time
and space to think aboutwhatever we're asking.
So we can't get nervous for thesilence because we want them to
have that silence in big time.
So we want them to have time tothink about the problem, and
(04:16):
discourse promotes them tointernalize whatever they're
learning.
So to do that, we want them tobe able to look at the problem,
be able to explain and defendtheir reason right or wrong and
we want to encourage them toshare their thoughts and we need
to make it a safe environment,because a lot of kids are afraid
to speak because they don'twant to be wrong.
(04:38):
So we need to make it a spacewhere it don't appear to be
wrong because that's how yougrow so to do that some of the
things so I noticed we have.
I know I'm math, you know mybackground is in math, so we're
giving math example which couldpossibly be used in multiple
subjects.
So the five factors oforchestrated and math-managed
(04:59):
discourse by Smith and Smith issomething we use in math so the
critical piece of componentsthat are anticipating,
monitoring, selecting,sequencing and connecting.
So those good five things we useto plan are essentially as a
roadmap to help you engagestudents right, so to get them
(05:20):
talking.
So what that takes is youplanning up front, like
anticipating this.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
Whatever my problem is, I'm going to work that out
myself and anticipate thestudent solutions and
misconceptions they may have.
Speaker 3 (05:35):
So with that information you can be a
developed question, so you cansupport students as we go into
the next phase, which ismonitoring while they work the
next phase, which is monitoringwhile they work.
So, as the students are workingon the power task, you're
walking around as a teacherseeing what they're doing.
If you have a student that'sstuck, you probably already
identified that in youranticipation stage where this
(05:56):
may be a possible mistake.
So you would ask probingquestions to move them forward
in their thinking and notnecessarily answering their
question or telling them whatthey do.
So ask them questions to movethem along.
The next one is selecting,which means after we've gone
through them, working throughthat process or through the
problem and coming up withwhatever solutions they have,
(06:17):
then, as the teacher's walkingaround and monitoring, you're
tracking those adequatesolutions.
Even if it's almost slightlywrong, you can build upon it if
you have students to build upon.
But you're selecting thosestudents per share to build up
to the learning target.
And the sequencing is a part ofthat.
We want to sequence the work inthe way that we may take the
(06:39):
simpler solutions to the morecomplex so that the students can
make the connections to thelearning target and that take
you to connecting.
So it's five steps.
It's kind of seamless but itmay be challenging getting
started.
So I like I tend to focus onthe anticipated monitoring with
my teachers because most of them, I have a lot of strategies to
(06:59):
engage the students, but wehadn't necessarily thought
through or work through theproblem.
So when we get our own roombecause the kids are stuck, I
haven't thought through that.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
So that makes sense.
Speaker 3 (07:11):
That's what I have.
How do you feel about that?
Speaker 1 (07:15):
That sounds good.
It makes sense.
I definitely would like to knowmore about how to do these, but
I'm sure that's what you'regoing to tell me, so I'm not
concerned.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
So, yes, engagement, I mean you can use multiple
strategies.
That's just one.
We use discourse and map.
However, you can incorporatethose, some of those, a lot of
those components, or if not allof those components in language
arts, depending on what yourtopic is.
You can give them a piece ofreading, you can anticipate what
you want, but if you're doingthings, what are the things they
(07:43):
might come up with, what aresome of the incorrect things
they might come up with?
And just see what they're doingas you're monitoring.
So you can use these fivepractices in language arts as
well.
There are also other strategies, like think pair share.
Right, think pair share is oneof the key.
You give them a problem, asolution.
So think pair share, share.
They give you the strategy, butwe don't necessarily talk about
(08:04):
how to plan for it, which iswhy I like me couple of five,
the anticipated piece of thestrategies.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
Gabby Robertson talked about how to plan and
then last week, coincidentally,we had a lesson with Marty
Shigaric and he talked aboutthinkare.
So it sounds like if you reallywant to get good at what we're
talking about today, then youcan get more in-depth on a
couple of these topics by goingto Debbie Robertson's planning
(08:35):
episode and Marty Shigaric'sthink-pair-share episode.
Great that we're seeingconnections here to our past
lessons.
Sorry to interrupt to say that,but I just wanted to give a
little plug.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
So yeah, I think it's just essential and key to give
the students space tocollaborate.
I think peer share is astructured way to say work
independently, be in share, soit's a structured way to do that
.
You know what you're lookingfor the planning piece again for
student engagement.
I think a lot of teachers missthat piece because we have to be
(09:10):
very strategic about what wewant, because one we have an end
goal that we want to get to.
So we want to make sure we'regetting specific responses from
our students that's going to getus to the end goal.
So we're looking for those keyresponses which require us to
develop as teachers, to developquestions.
That's going to get us there.
(09:30):
So that's the critical part.
So having those open-endedquestions that's going to
promote thinking and advance usto the learning target at the
end.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
And I think something that you said there that really
stuck out to me is structure,because I can't speak for
everybody, obviously, but I knowfor me I think of some things
as structured and some things Idon't necessarily think of as
structured.
So the actual lesson we do,that's something I put a lot of
planning in and it's structured,it's an actual activity, but
(10:03):
the discussion is like free time, so I don't structure that and
that's probably why it doesn'tgo as well as I want it to.
So I like that.
You're now telling me well,structure that too, plan for
that.
That's how you're going to getit to be what you want it to be,
by planning for it andstructuring it.
So I think that's really greatadvice.
Speaker 3 (10:23):
And some other strategies you can use.
Think purchase is one that weuse globally a lot.
Have you ever heard of jigsaw?
Speaker 1 (10:32):
I have heard of it, but I don't ever really use it,
so I'm not exactly sure that Iknow exactly how it works.
So I'd love to hear more aboutit, for example, if we were
doing a jigsaw.
Speaker 3 (10:42):
So we have a concept and then we have multiple types
of problems in that concept.
We'll assign those problems toseparate groups and let each
group become the expert on thatproblem type.
So that means once they'vefinished solving work and
they're doing it in a group andeverybody has come to a
consensus on what the processthey're going to use is and how
(11:03):
to get to that solution, thenthey then share that out to the
whole group.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
Okay.
So for math that might be likeone group works on subtraction
and one works on a.
You see my math level, that I'mtalking about subtraction here,
but so they're doing differentthings and then teaching.
So in english it might be weread a book and one group's
talking about character and onegroup's talking about setting
and one's talking about theme,right, and then we're putting
(11:29):
them together with the wholeclass.
Is that from that way?
Speaker 3 (11:33):
Or it can be like for math, like we do a learning
target.
We may like say, for instance,solve an equation, right, I may
have a one step equation, I mayhave a two step equation.
I may have equation wherethere's distribution,
distributing property in there,or I may have a problem with
fractions.
I can break those problem typesup and give each type to a
(11:54):
group and let them explain howthey work through that.
So I'm still solving equations,I'm still on the same learning
target, but I've scaffolded thatup to the level I need it to be
and allowing the students to bethe expert at their level in
space so they can explain andthen we can share that out with
the class okay, that makes sense.
(12:15):
So, and then I have a few othersthat you can look at like
sentence starters is great.
So if kids don't like to talk,that's because they probably
don't know what to say or how tosay it.
So maybe giving them sentencestarters that may help them to
start a conversation.
Like if somebody sharessomething you agree and then you
tell why.
Or I like to add to whatso-and-so said so giving them
(12:37):
ways to start or add to theconversation will help.
So sentence starters is anotherway.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
I like that a lot.
That's something in Englishthat we do with essays sometimes
that they have essay startersand so it's kind of like almost
when they're first learning howto write an essay, kind of fill
in the blanks almost of thingsthat they would say in the essay
.
That helps them learn to focusit and I've never really thought
about it, but that's reallygreat to do.
(13:04):
They need to learn.
I always tell them greatwriting is like talking.
It should be as natural astalking.
But it makes sense then that ifthey're struggling talking
about an issue, do the samething you would do with writing
and give them some sentencestarters.
So I really like that one.
Speaker 3 (13:20):
And another one that creates a safe space for
students is four corners.
I like four corners because youhave a problem and you put your
four solutions up and fourpossible solutions and the kids
get to go to their corner sothey don't have to be stand
alone and talk about it.
As they collaborate as a groupand they pick their spokesperson
, it's probably going to besomebody that's comfortable
(13:40):
speaking, but they'vecollaborated in that group and
talked about why they chose thatanswer.
So, with everybody sharing thatnow we're collaborating,
connecting our thoughts andseeing, you know how did we get
to that end goal.
So that's a I think that's asafe one to help students talk.
One they're moving, one they'removing and they're talking
(14:02):
amongst the group before theyshare their answer out loud.
So I think that buildsconfidence in someone who's
having a conversation and makingthem more comfortable with
dialogue.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
And I know that's something when I've been at
workshops and things like thatthat it's very common in
teaching things.
So I've done it more thanfacilitated it, but I know that
it really does First of all,hearing the conversation in your
group with everybody thatalready agrees with you, it's a
lot easier to talk about itbecause you know everybody has
the same kind of opinion as you.
(14:36):
But then, once you've alreadydone that little mini discussion
with your group, when you comeback to the class hearing other
perspectives but also you feelmore comfortable defending your
position because you know youhave a team of people agreeing
with you, so I think that'sgreat.
I like that you called that thesafe space, because I can
understand that really well.
Speaker 3 (14:56):
So any questions on any of these things that I've
shared.
Was there anyone that stick outto you that you might want to
try?
Speaker 1 (15:03):
Definitely I want to try sentence starters.
I think that that's a great wayto think about it, just like an
essay, which is what I'm tryingto get them to connect anyway
for my class.
But one thing I will ask is doyou have examples of any of
these that we can share in thenotes, so that they can kind of
see what they might look like?
Speaker 3 (15:20):
Yes, I do.
There's a handout titledStrategies to Promote Meaningful
Student Discourse.
In this handout, you will findall the strategies discussed
today, along with a briefdescription how to implement and
why each of the strategies work.
There's a second handout titledThink Pair Share Strategy.
(15:41):
In this handout, the fivepractices have been embedded in
a think-pair-share to include aplanning phase, as well as each
phase of the think-pair-sharebeing broken out to student and
teacher action for facilitation.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Okay, good, Then that'll be in the show notes and
so you can find it there,everybody listening.
So let me just as a reminder,think-pair, Share, Jigsaw,
Senate Starters, Four Cornersare the activities we went over
today and they go to the fivediscussion facilitator steps
that you talked with us abouttoday, specifically focusing on
(16:21):
anticipation and monitoring.
So I think that you did areally great job explaining and
I don't have any questions andhopefully, if anybody out there
has some questions, they'll letus know on social media and we
can get them some answers In themeantime.
That bell you just heard meanswe're almost out of time.
(16:41):
Do you have some homework forus?
Speaker 3 (16:46):
Of course, I have homework for you.
So let's do something in theanticipating phase of the five
practices and focus on thestrategy you selected since the
starters.
So for the anticipating, I wantyou to select a learning target
, identify activity to go withthat learning target.
You're to work the activity andidentify possible answers or
(17:10):
solutions and misconceptions.
Then, for the Senate starters,I want you to identify two to
three Senate starters forstudents to use to collaborate
within their groups.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
All right, that sounds perfect.
It also kind of goes with lastweek's lesson.
One of the things that we weretold to look for is the OMGs is
what Marty called it.
Speaker 3 (17:35):
The.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
OMGs the opportunities, misconnections
and gaps that students mighthave.
So it's perfect continuation ofthat lesson, so make sure you
go listen to that one too.
All right, thank you so muchfor being here.
It's been great and I can'twait to try some of these
activities in my class Awesome,thank you so much.
(17:58):
Have a great rest of your day.
Speaker 3 (18:01):
All right, you do say All right, bye.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
Well, that was extremely helpful.
I definitely have some ideasthere that I want to take back
when I work with students.
Have some ideas there that Iwant to take back when I work
with students.
I love the way she talked aboutfocusing on anticipating what
students are going to need toknow.
I mean, you've talked aboutthat before doing your own
assignments.
Was there something that reallystood out to you as you were
(18:26):
listening to her?
Speaker 1 (18:28):
Well, and I know I pointed this out to her too but
I really do like the sentencestarters.
Definitely.
I can see that being helpful inany class, but definitely in an
ELA class, I think, gettingthem ready for sentence starters
for talking and for writing.
So I thought that was perfect.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
And working with English language learners.
They can be very helpful.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
Yes, I can definitely see that be very helpful.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
Yes, I can definitely see that.
So from a coaching perspective,it was very interesting because
she did a few things that sortof piqued my coaching eye.
One thing was that she said shegave you a list of steps for
having a discussion anticipating, monitoring, selecting,
sequencing and connecting.
But did you notice how she sayswhen I start with teachers, I
(19:15):
really focus on anticipating andmonitoring?
And I guess you know we havesometimes these strategies and
they can sometimes beoverwhelming if there's a lot of
them, and really focusing ongetting really good on one
aspect first and then moving oncan be very helpful.
(19:36):
So that was one thing I wantedto highlight.
That actually doesn't expecteveryone to do the whole thing
perfectly, but let's, you know,let's chunk it.
Just like we chunk for kids,let's chunk for teachers.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
Yes, I thought that was really useful, that, because
it would have been a lot if wehad covered all five of those
sections and I don't know that Iwould have gotten as much out
of it.
So I like that.
She said hey, there are fivepoints to what I'm talking about
, but let's just focus on thefirst two for today.
So I thought that was veryhelpful to me as a teacher.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
The second thing she did is, you know, it's like,
whatever the strategy was shewas talking about, she kept
saying how we're going toconnect this to the learning
target, to the learning targetand, as a coach, we sometimes
want teachers to use a strategy,but we can't just use a
(20:27):
strategy for the sake of using astrategy.
It has to be something thataligns with what the kids need
to learn.
And so when she's coachingteachers, you can see she's
always focusing on how will thisthing that we're doing help
them learn that learning targetnot just are you doing the thing
(20:48):
, and I just think that's animportant aspect to focus on is
always connecting it to thelearning target, whatever the
strategy is.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
Yes, yes, I can see that being very useful.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
And one last thing I want to point out.
At the end she gave you a menuof strategies.
She talked about think per seor jigsare, jigsaw, sentence
stems and four corners, but atthe very end she said which of
(21:21):
these would you like to focus on, which of these would you like
to try?
And great coaching involvesmaking sure the learner is in
the driver's seat and they'reable to choose and have voice in
what they are using and whatthey are teaching.
So she could have come out andsaid Ashley, I want you to do
(21:46):
anticipating monitoring.
I think we're just inconnecting and we're going to
start with anticipating andmonitoring.
Here we go, take out yournotebook.
But then she would have been inthe driver's seat, right.
It would have been her strategyRight, but instead she gave you
a whole bunch of strategies andshe allowed you to have voice
and choice in what you weregoing to do, and that is one
(22:10):
important way to build buy-inwith teachers and to help them
feel like they have ownershipover what they're learning and
what they're trying.
So I thought that was a greatway to end the session.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
Yeah, and it also, I think, for me at least, and, I
assume, other teachers out thereit makes me get excited about
what I'm learning about.
Get excited about what I'mlearning about.
So I actually want to try it inmy class because it was
directed towards me, as opposedto just somebody telling me you
need to do this thing which,yeah, maybe I would do but
probably wouldn't be as excitedabout.
But I feel like I had choiceand voice in it which makes me
(22:45):
want to go put it in myclassroom.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
Right, and she doesn't necessarily know exactly
what your students are like orwhat your teaching style is, so
he needs to give you options andlet you ultimately be the one
who makes the decision aboutwhat and how you do it.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
I think she did a great job, so once again, you
found a great coach for me.
Thank you, as always.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
All right, no problem , I'll see you next week.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
All right, have a great rest of your day.
Bye, bye, bye.
Welcome back.
I'm Ashley Shaw.
I'll be your host today, andwith me, as usual, is Dan Rock,
my co-host.
Hi Dan, how are you?
Speaker 2 (00:11):
I am wonderful, Ashley.
I hope you're well.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
I am, and I am very ready for you to help me with my
issue for today.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
What is something that you're really trying to
focus on and improve this week?
Speaker 1 (00:26):
So in these episodes we have these great
conversations and I want to havethe same type of conversations
with my students.
The problem is they just sitthere and stare at me and I talk
and talk, and talk, and talkand talk and talk and then they
don't participate.
We had a lesson a while ago onasking great questions and that
has been helpful, but I want tokind of focus a little bit on
(00:50):
ways to bring them into thediscussion in general, not just
through great questions.
Do you have anybody that canhelp me create discourse in my
class?
Speaker 2 (00:59):
So to create discourse, you need to teach
students how to have an academicconversation, and a person who
I know has done that really welland has some real insights into
simple but effective ways isKeisha King.
She's one of our fantastic mathinstructional coaches, but the
(01:24):
work that she does will apply toeverybody.
I think she'll really help youa lot.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
All right, well, I'm looking forward to working with
her.
Thank you, no problem.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
I'd like to hear what she has to say.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
All right.
Well, I'll talk to you afterit's over and you can tell me
how you think it went.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
All right.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Hello, welcome to the podcast.
Thank you so much for cominghere.
How are you?
I'm great.
How are you?
Speaker 3 (02:09):
I am doing pretty well today, so thank you again
for coming Before.
Bachelor's is in math andcomputer science.
My master's is in matheducation, so my experience has
been in mostly middle and highschool education, but I have
supported elementary.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
All right, well, that sounds great.
I talked to Dan about what Iwas looking for this week and I
told him and I'm sure you've hadthis experience too.
I'm sure every teacher outthere has had this experience I
told him that I have really beenstruggling getting my students
to talk in class.
We have these class discussionsand I want them to be so great
(02:48):
and helpful to them, and thenthey just sit there and stare at
me.
Do you have any tips for us onhow to get students to join the
discourse, to talk when we haveclass discussion time?
Speaker 3 (03:01):
Yes, I'm going to start by asking you a question
what are you currently doingwith your students to try to
promote the conversation?
Speaker 1 (03:09):
So I tend to I hate to admit this, but I tend to I
come in with what I think isgoing to be this great
discussion and some questionsand then, when they don't
respond, I do one of two things.
One is I rely on the fewstudents in class who do talk
and it ends up being adiscussion between like three
students in the class.
Or I do something that wetalked about not doing in the
(03:33):
lesson with Jason Adair aboutwhen he talked about asking
great questions, where I don'twait for them to answer and join
the discussion.
I just I'm like oh, they don'tknow the answer, so let me just
tell them, and then I justdiscuss the whole thing myself
and it becomes a lecture, not adiscussion.
So those are my two methods.
They work very well.
(03:54):
Gotcha, gotcha.
Speaker 3 (03:55):
Well, wait time is definitely critical for student
discourse, because when we'redoing student discourse we want
to promote critical thinking, sowe have to give students time
and space to think aboutwhatever we're asking.
So we can't get nervous for thesilence because we want them to
have that silence in big time.
So we want them to have time tothink about the problem, and
(04:16):
discourse promotes them tointernalize whatever they're
learning.
So to do that, we want them tobe able to look at the problem,
be able to explain and defendtheir reason right or wrong and
we want to encourage them toshare their thoughts and we need
to make it a safe environment,because a lot of kids are afraid
to speak because they don'twant to be wrong.
(04:38):
So we need to make it a spacewhere it don't appear to be
wrong because that's how yougrow so to do that some of the
things so I noticed we have.
I know I'm math, you know mybackground is in math, so we're
giving math example which couldpossibly be used in multiple
subjects.
So the five factors oforchestrated and math-managed
(04:59):
discourse by Smith and Smith issomething we use in math so the
critical piece of componentsthat are anticipating,
monitoring, selecting,sequencing and connecting.
So those good five things we useto plan are essentially as a
roadmap to help you engagestudents right, so to get them
(05:20):
talking.
So what that takes is youplanning up front, like
anticipating this.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
Whatever my problem is, I'm going to work that out
myself and anticipate thestudent solutions and
misconceptions they may have.
Speaker 3 (05:35):
So with that information you can be a
developed question, so you cansupport students as we go into
the next phase, which ismonitoring while they work the
next phase, which is monitoringwhile they work.
So, as the students are workingon the power task, you're
walking around as a teacherseeing what they're doing.
If you have a student that'sstuck, you probably already
identified that in youranticipation stage where this
(05:56):
may be a possible mistake.
So you would ask probingquestions to move them forward
in their thinking and notnecessarily answering their
question or telling them whatthey do.
So ask them questions to movethem along.
The next one is selecting,which means after we've gone
through them, working throughthat process or through the
problem and coming up withwhatever solutions they have,
(06:17):
then, as the teacher's walkingaround and monitoring, you're
tracking those adequatesolutions.
Even if it's almost slightlywrong, you can build upon it if
you have students to build upon.
But you're selecting thosestudents per share to build up
to the learning target.
And the sequencing is a part ofthat.
We want to sequence the work inthe way that we may take the
(06:39):
simpler solutions to the morecomplex so that the students can
make the connections to thelearning target and that take
you to connecting.
So it's five steps.
It's kind of seamless but itmay be challenging getting
started.
So I like I tend to focus onthe anticipated monitoring with
my teachers because most of them, I have a lot of strategies to
(06:59):
engage the students, but wehadn't necessarily thought
through or work through theproblem.
So when we get our own roombecause the kids are stuck, I
haven't thought through that.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
So that makes sense.
Speaker 3 (07:11):
That's what I have.
How do you feel about that?
Speaker 1 (07:15):
That sounds good.
It makes sense.
I definitely would like to knowmore about how to do these, but
I'm sure that's what you'regoing to tell me, so I'm not
concerned.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
So, yes, engagement, I mean you can use multiple
strategies.
That's just one.
We use discourse and map.
However, you can incorporatethose, some of those, a lot of
those components, or if not allof those components in language
arts, depending on what yourtopic is.
You can give them a piece ofreading, you can anticipate what
you want, but if you're doingthings, what are the things they
(07:43):
might come up with, what aresome of the incorrect things
they might come up with?
And just see what they're doingas you're monitoring.
So you can use these fivepractices in language arts as
well.
There are also other strategies, like think pair share.
Right, think pair share is oneof the key.
You give them a problem, asolution.
So think pair share, share.
They give you the strategy, butwe don't necessarily talk about
(08:04):
how to plan for it, which iswhy I like me couple of five,
the anticipated piece of thestrategies.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
Gabby Robertson talked about how to plan and
then last week, coincidentally,we had a lesson with Marty
Shigaric and he talked aboutthinkare.
So it sounds like if you reallywant to get good at what we're
talking about today, then youcan get more in-depth on a
couple of these topics by goingto Debbie Robertson's planning
(08:35):
episode and Marty Shigaric'sthink-pair-share episode.
Great that we're seeingconnections here to our past
lessons.
Sorry to interrupt to say that,but I just wanted to give a
little plug.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
So yeah, I think it's just essential and key to give
the students space tocollaborate.
I think peer share is astructured way to say work
independently, be in share, soit's a structured way to do that
.
You know what you're lookingfor the planning piece again for
student engagement.
I think a lot of teachers missthat piece because we have to be
(09:10):
very strategic about what wewant, because one we have an end
goal that we want to get to.
So we want to make sure we'regetting specific responses from
our students that's going to getus to the end goal.
So we're looking for those keyresponses which require us to
develop as teachers, to developquestions.
That's going to get us there.
(09:30):
So that's the critical part.
So having those open-endedquestions that's going to
promote thinking and advance usto the learning target at the
end.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
And I think something that you said there that really
stuck out to me is structure,because I can't speak for
everybody, obviously, but I knowfor me I think of some things
as structured and some things Idon't necessarily think of as
structured.
So the actual lesson we do,that's something I put a lot of
planning in and it's structured,it's an actual activity, but
(10:03):
the discussion is like free time, so I don't structure that and
that's probably why it doesn'tgo as well as I want it to.
So I like that.
You're now telling me well,structure that too, plan for
that.
That's how you're going to getit to be what you want it to be,
by planning for it andstructuring it.
So I think that's really greatadvice.
Speaker 3 (10:23):
And some other strategies you can use.
Think purchase is one that weuse globally a lot.
Have you ever heard of jigsaw?
Speaker 1 (10:32):
I have heard of it, but I don't ever really use it,
so I'm not exactly sure that Iknow exactly how it works.
So I'd love to hear more aboutit, for example, if we were
doing a jigsaw.
Speaker 3 (10:42):
So we have a concept and then we have multiple types
of problems in that concept.
We'll assign those problems toseparate groups and let each
group become the expert on thatproblem type.
So that means once they'vefinished solving work and
they're doing it in a group andeverybody has come to a
consensus on what the processthey're going to use is and how
(11:03):
to get to that solution, thenthey then share that out to the
whole group.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
Okay.
So for math that might be likeone group works on subtraction
and one works on a.
You see my math level, that I'mtalking about subtraction here,
but so they're doing differentthings and then teaching.
So in english it might be weread a book and one group's
talking about character and onegroup's talking about setting
and one's talking about theme,right, and then we're putting
(11:29):
them together with the wholeclass.
Is that from that way?
Speaker 3 (11:33):
Or it can be like for math, like we do a learning
target.
We may like say, for instance,solve an equation, right, I may
have a one step equation, I mayhave a two step equation.
I may have equation wherethere's distribution,
distributing property in there,or I may have a problem with
fractions.
I can break those problem typesup and give each type to a
(11:54):
group and let them explain howthey work through that.
So I'm still solving equations,I'm still on the same learning
target, but I've scaffolded thatup to the level I need it to be
and allowing the students to bethe expert at their level in
space so they can explain andthen we can share that out with
the class okay, that makes sense.
(12:15):
So, and then I have a few othersthat you can look at like
sentence starters is great.
So if kids don't like to talk,that's because they probably
don't know what to say or how tosay it.
So maybe giving them sentencestarters that may help them to
start a conversation.
Like if somebody sharessomething you agree and then you
tell why.
Or I like to add to whatso-and-so said so giving them
(12:37):
ways to start or add to theconversation will help.
So sentence starters is anotherway.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
I like that a lot.
That's something in Englishthat we do with essays sometimes
that they have essay startersand so it's kind of like almost
when they're first learning howto write an essay, kind of fill
in the blanks almost of thingsthat they would say in the essay
.
That helps them learn to focusit and I've never really thought
about it, but that's reallygreat to do.
(13:04):
They need to learn.
I always tell them greatwriting is like talking.
It should be as natural astalking.
But it makes sense then that ifthey're struggling talking
about an issue, do the samething you would do with writing
and give them some sentencestarters.
So I really like that one.
Speaker 3 (13:20):
And another one that creates a safe space for
students is four corners.
I like four corners because youhave a problem and you put your
four solutions up and fourpossible solutions and the kids
get to go to their corner sothey don't have to be stand
alone and talk about it.
As they collaborate as a groupand they pick their spokesperson
, it's probably going to besomebody that's comfortable
(13:40):
speaking, but they'vecollaborated in that group and
talked about why they chose thatanswer.
So, with everybody sharing thatnow we're collaborating,
connecting our thoughts andseeing, you know how did we get
to that end goal.
So that's a I think that's asafe one to help students talk.
One they're moving, one they'removing and they're talking
(14:02):
amongst the group before theyshare their answer out loud.
So I think that buildsconfidence in someone who's
having a conversation and makingthem more comfortable with
dialogue.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
And I know that's something when I've been at
workshops and things like thatthat it's very common in
teaching things.
So I've done it more thanfacilitated it, but I know that
it really does First of all,hearing the conversation in your
group with everybody thatalready agrees with you, it's a
lot easier to talk about itbecause you know everybody has
the same kind of opinion as you.
(14:36):
But then, once you've alreadydone that little mini discussion
with your group, when you comeback to the class hearing other
perspectives but also you feelmore comfortable defending your
position because you know youhave a team of people agreeing
with you, so I think that'sgreat.
I like that you called that thesafe space, because I can
understand that really well.
Speaker 3 (14:56):
So any questions on any of these things that I've
shared.
Was there anyone that stick outto you that you might want to
try?
Speaker 1 (15:03):
Definitely I want to try sentence starters.
I think that that's a great wayto think about it, just like an
essay, which is what I'm tryingto get them to connect anyway
for my class.
But one thing I will ask is doyou have examples of any of
these that we can share in thenotes, so that they can kind of
see what they might look like?
Speaker 3 (15:20):
Yes, I do.
There's a handout titledStrategies to Promote Meaningful
Student Discourse.
In this handout, you will findall the strategies discussed
today, along with a briefdescription how to implement and
why each of the strategies work.
There's a second handout titledThink Pair Share Strategy.
(15:41):
In this handout, the fivepractices have been embedded in
a think-pair-share to include aplanning phase, as well as each
phase of the think-pair-sharebeing broken out to student and
teacher action for facilitation.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Okay, good, Then that'll be in the show notes and
so you can find it there,everybody listening.
So let me just as a reminder,think-pair, Share, Jigsaw,
Senate Starters, Four Cornersare the activities we went over
today and they go to the fivediscussion facilitator steps
that you talked with us abouttoday, specifically focusing on
(16:21):
anticipation and monitoring.
So I think that you did areally great job explaining and
I don't have any questions andhopefully, if anybody out there
has some questions, they'll letus know on social media and we
can get them some answers In themeantime.
That bell you just heard meanswe're almost out of time.
(16:41):
Do you have some homework forus?
Speaker 3 (16:46):
Of course, I have homework for you.
So let's do something in theanticipating phase of the five
practices and focus on thestrategy you selected since the
starters.
So for the anticipating, I wantyou to select a learning target
, identify activity to go withthat learning target.
You're to work the activity andidentify possible answers or
(17:10):
solutions and misconceptions.
Then, for the Senate starters,I want you to identify two to
three Senate starters forstudents to use to collaborate
within their groups.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
All right, that sounds perfect.
It also kind of goes with lastweek's lesson.
One of the things that we weretold to look for is the OMGs is
what Marty called it.
Speaker 3 (17:35):
The.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
OMGs the opportunities, misconnections
and gaps that students mighthave.
So it's perfect continuation ofthat lesson, so make sure you
go listen to that one too.
All right, thank you so muchfor being here.
It's been great and I can'twait to try some of these
activities in my class Awesome,thank you so much.
(17:58):
Have a great rest of your day.
Speaker 3 (18:01):
All right, you do say All right, bye.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
Well, that was extremely helpful.
I definitely have some ideasthere that I want to take back
when I work with students.
Have some ideas there that Iwant to take back when I work
with students.
I love the way she talked aboutfocusing on anticipating what
students are going to need toknow.
I mean, you've talked aboutthat before doing your own
assignments.
Was there something that reallystood out to you as you were
(18:26):
listening to her?
Speaker 1 (18:28):
Well, and I know I pointed this out to her too but
I really do like the sentencestarters.
Definitely.
I can see that being helpful inany class, but definitely in an
ELA class, I think, gettingthem ready for sentence starters
for talking and for writing.
So I thought that was perfect.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
And working with English language learners.
They can be very helpful.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
Yes, I can definitely see that be very helpful.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
Yes, I can definitely see that.
So from a coaching perspective,it was very interesting because
she did a few things that sortof piqued my coaching eye.
One thing was that she said shegave you a list of steps for
having a discussion anticipating, monitoring, selecting,
sequencing and connecting.
But did you notice how she sayswhen I start with teachers, I
(19:15):
really focus on anticipating andmonitoring?
And I guess you know we havesometimes these strategies and
they can sometimes beoverwhelming if there's a lot of
them, and really focusing ongetting really good on one
aspect first and then moving oncan be very helpful.
(19:36):
So that was one thing I wantedto highlight.
That actually doesn't expecteveryone to do the whole thing
perfectly, but let's, you know,let's chunk it.
Just like we chunk for kids,let's chunk for teachers.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
Yes, I thought that was really useful, that, because
it would have been a lot if wehad covered all five of those
sections and I don't know that Iwould have gotten as much out
of it.
So I like that.
She said hey, there are fivepoints to what I'm talking about
, but let's just focus on thefirst two for today.
So I thought that was veryhelpful to me as a teacher.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
The second thing she did is, you know, it's like,
whatever the strategy was shewas talking about, she kept
saying how we're going toconnect this to the learning
target, to the learning targetand, as a coach, we sometimes
want teachers to use a strategy,but we can't just use a
(20:27):
strategy for the sake of using astrategy.
It has to be something thataligns with what the kids need
to learn.
And so when she's coachingteachers, you can see she's
always focusing on how will thisthing that we're doing help
them learn that learning targetnot just are you doing the thing
(20:48):
, and I just think that's animportant aspect to focus on is
always connecting it to thelearning target, whatever the
strategy is.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
Yes, yes, I can see that being very useful.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
And one last thing I want to point out.
At the end she gave you a menuof strategies.
She talked about think per seor jigsare, jigsaw, sentence
stems and four corners, but atthe very end she said which of
(21:21):
these would you like to focus on, which of these would you like
to try?
And great coaching involvesmaking sure the learner is in
the driver's seat and they'reable to choose and have voice in
what they are using and whatthey are teaching.
So she could have come out andsaid Ashley, I want you to do
(21:46):
anticipating monitoring.
I think we're just inconnecting and we're going to
start with anticipating andmonitoring.
Here we go, take out yournotebook.
But then she would have been inthe driver's seat, right.
It would have been her strategyRight, but instead she gave you
a whole bunch of strategies andshe allowed you to have voice
and choice in what you weregoing to do, and that is one
(22:10):
important way to build buy-inwith teachers and to help them
feel like they have ownershipover what they're learning and
what they're trying.
So I thought that was a greatway to end the session.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
Yeah, and it also, I think, for me at least, and, I
assume, other teachers out thereit makes me get excited about
what I'm learning about.
Get excited about what I'mlearning about.
So I actually want to try it inmy class because it was
directed towards me, as opposedto just somebody telling me you
need to do this thing which,yeah, maybe I would do but
probably wouldn't be as excitedabout.
But I feel like I had choiceand voice in it which makes me
(22:45):
want to go put it in myclassroom.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
Right, and she doesn't necessarily know exactly
what your students are like orwhat your teaching style is, so
he needs to give you options andlet you ultimately be the one
who makes the decision aboutwhat and how you do it.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
I think she did a great job, so once again, you
found a great coach for me.
Thank you, as always.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
All right, no problem , I'll see you next week.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
All right, have a great rest of your day.
Bye, bye, bye.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.