March 11, 2025 • 19 mins
Dr. Doug Fisher is known for his prolific work in instructional design, curriculum development, and professional learning. Additionally, he is a teacher leader at Health Sciences High & Middle College, an award-winning, open-enrollment public school in the City Heights neighborhood of San Diego, California that he co founded in 2007. Previously, Doug was an early intervention teacher and elementary school educator. Much of his work has been published with San Diego State University colleague, Dr. Nancy Frey. Together, they offer tailored professional learning opportunities around the world. With colleagues, Doug has published over 250 books, chapters, and articles focused on school improvement including Rigor Unveiled, The Teacher Clarity Playbook, PLC+, and Welcome to Teaching. He is the recipient of an International Reading Association William S. Grey citation of merit and an Exemplary Leader award from the Conference on English Leadership of NCTE. He was named an Adolescent Literacy Thought Leader by the International Literacy Association in 2016 and elected into the Reading Hall of Fame in 2022. Doug loves being an educator and hopes to share that passion with others. Dr. Douglas Fisher is Professor of Educational Leadership at San Diego State University. You can connect with Dr. Fisher at https://www.fisherandfrey.com/ and follow him on X (formerly Twitter) for updates @DFISHERSDSU.
Resources mentioned in this episode:
International Literacy Association's Literacy Glossary - https://www.literacyworldwide.org/get-resources/literacy-glossary
To cite this episode:
Persohn, L. (Host). (2025, Mar. 11). A conversation with Doug Fisher (Season 5, No. 8) [Audio podcast episode]. In Classroom Caffeine Podcast series. https://www.classroomcaffeine.com/guests. DOI: 10.5240/0A22-E8D7-3F09-096B-C056-D
Connect with Classroom Caffeine at www.classroomcaffeine.com or on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Education research has a problem.
The work of brilliant educationresearchers often doesn't reach
the practice of brilliantteachers.
Classroom Caffeine is here tohelp.
In each episode, I talk with atop education researcher or an
expert educator about what theyhave learned from years of
(00:32):
research and experiences.
In this episode, dr Doug Fishertalks to us about collegial
collaboration, a shared languageof education and the joys in
teaching.
Doug is known for his prolificwork in instructional design,
curriculum development andprofessional learning.
He is a teacher and leader atHealth Sciences High and Middle
(00:56):
College in San Diego, california.
Much of his work has beenpublished with San Diego State
University colleague Dr NancyFry.
Together they offer tailoredprofessional learning
opportunities around the worldWith colleagues.
Doug has published over 250books, chapters and articles
focused on school improvement.
(01:17):
He is the recipient of anInternational Reading
Association William S GrayCitation of Merit.
He's been named an exemplaryleader by the Conference on
English Leadership of theNational Council for Teachers of
English, an adolescent literacythought leader by the
International LiteracyAssociation, and he is an
(01:38):
elected member of the ReadingHall of Fame.
Dr Douglas Fisher is aprofessor of educational
leadership at San Diego StateUniversity.
For more information about ourguest, formerly Twitter for
updates at dfishersdsu, that's,at d-f-i-s-h-e-r-s-d-s-u.
(02:23):
So pour a cup of your favoritedrink and join me.
Your host, lindsay Persaud, forClassroom Caffeine research to
energize your teaching practice.
Doug, thank you for joining me.
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Thank you.
Thanks for the invitation.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
So, from your own experiences in education, will
you share with us one or twomoments that inform your
thinking now?
Speaker 2 (02:47):
Yeah, so one that first comes to mind was more
than a decade ago, probably morethan two decades ago, and I was
teaching ninth grade English atHoover High School and I had a
student named Anthony, andAnthony taught me a lot.
He didn't like to write, buthad all these ideas and he
didn't like to share it with theclass.
(03:09):
And we end up with all thesedifferent conversations and he
started telling me stories, someof which were true and some of
which were elaborations on thetruth, and I said that's amazing
, you should write it down.
You should write it down, youhave things to say, you have a
voice, and we just really hadthis great conversation.
And then he said to me I can'twrite.
(03:30):
And I said, well, yeah, let's.
And well, it turned out he couldwrite.
He didn't own a pair of glassesand so he couldn't see enough
to write, and he'd never toldanybody that.
And I just I had this aha ofwhat we just don't know about
our students.
And now it's pretty simple apair of glasses causing him not
(03:52):
to write, causing him not towant to write, thinking he
didn't have a voice.
But what else do we not knowthat, if we knew, would make a
difference in the way weinteracted with, held
expectations for and designlearning experiences for our
students.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
It's so true, doug, I think you know we only see
parts of people's lives, and nomatter how much time we spend
with students, no matter howmuch time we have to spend with
them, we never really knowwhat's going on, and sometimes
it takes just some probingquestions to begin to get to the
bottom of what might beimpacting their learning in some
(04:31):
not so great ways.
How wonderful when we can findthose fairly simple solutions
that can support them.
Yeah, so what do you wantlisteners to know about your
work?
Speaker 2 (04:42):
I'm really passionate about helping teachers, helping
myself, helping, as a teacher,get better at my craft.
How do I continually learn?
How do I continually thinkabout this amazing profession
that we're part of?
And, yes, it's hard andstressful and some days you go
home with a broken heart andsome days you go home with a
(05:04):
filled heart.
But always trying to get betteris my quest.
People say, oh, you write a lot.
I write a lot with my colleague, nancy, because it helps us
think.
And some people say you don'twrite about the same thing.
I mean, there are professorsout there who have like an area
of expertise and that's whatthey study and that's what they
write about, who have like anarea of expertise and that's
(05:25):
what they study and that's whatthey write about.
Nancy and I, because we're at aschool, write about, think
about, figure out things thatare happening in real time in
school.
And so, yeah, we got allinterested in scaffolding for a
while and we got all interestedin giving students feedback, all
these different areas of how dowe improve this very complex,
complicated job called teaching.
(05:47):
I hope that as I learn andNancy and I learn, and we
negotiate and argue and agreeand disagree and then finally
put something out in the world.
I hope it helps.
People say I could do that.
I see how it happens, I see howit works, I see why it would be
important and I can do that too.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
Doug, you just said two things that I think are so
very important really for allteachers, and that's having that
trusted colleague that you cantalk about your ideas with, you
can reflect with them, they cantell you when you're wrong, they
can tell you when they've founda better way to do things, and
just sharing those ideas backand forth.
I think having someone that youreally trust to do that is so
(06:28):
important on this quest tobecome better and better at our
craft.
And I think the other thing yousaid that really resonates with
me is the idea of writing as apart of our reflective practice.
I feel like as a classroomteacher, that wasn't something
that I engaged with maybe notreally ever and I think that
it's an important reminder ofwhat writing is really for, that
(06:51):
it is for us to process and tothink, but also a reminder that
maybe we can work that in to.
Part of our professionallearning is writing about what
we're doing.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
And wouldn't that be a great start or closure to a
professional learning communityor professional learning event
Like here's what we're talkingabout today.
We're talking about you know,teaching, spelling or whatever.
What's your experience with it,what's your thinking about and
like committing to it in writing, like we say to our students,
like we say we want you to do aquick write and kind of put your
(07:25):
thinking on paper.
I'll also comment about whatyou said about having a
colleague.
Nancy would say Doug has anidea every day, every day, I
wake up with an idea.
They're not all good, that'sthe thing.
And yes, I might have had anidea, but they're not all good.
And when you trust someone andyou know each other well, we
(07:46):
teach together, we writetogether and I think being able
to say you know that could work,let's do it, or you know that's
not really a good idea because,but having that colleague down
the hall or online or whereveryou have that colleague, where
you have some time in your worklife to have those conversations
(08:06):
, so that give and take that Ithink one of the reasons I love
my job so much is I'm connectedwith a whole bunch of
professionals who I respect andvalue, who helped me think, who
pushed me, who allowed me topush them.
Nancy is my major collaborator,but I work at a high school and
they are amazing people here whoreally push and do I mean like
(08:29):
every day, show up to be thebest they can be, and I think
when we're connected that way,it's super protective of our
well-being, of our professionalgenerosity and this is our sense
of when we go home that we madea difference and that together
we accomplished great thingsmade a difference and that
(08:50):
together we accomplished greatthings.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
That's so important, and I appreciate you also
highlighting that this is a partof, I think, it's taking care
of ourselves professionally.
But also there is thisemotional and sort of social
well-being aspect of it.
Right, if you feel as thoughyou're teaching in a vacuum, I
think the job is justexceedingly difficult.
But whenever you have peoplearound you who are supportive
and who will say, oh, thatsounds like a great idea, let's
(09:12):
think about that some more.
Or I'm not so sure about thatone I think that it really does
help us to feel more human inthe profession and to kind of
bring our whole selves to whatwe do.
And I think the other thing thatI hear in what you shared is
that I can relate to is havingan easy relationship with
someone, somebody you can youknow you can send them a text
(09:33):
and it may not be 100 percentaccurate, but they know what
you're talking about.
You know those kinds of things,because I think that in in the
the pace of life right now, weneed those kinds of easy
relationships where we don'thave to formalize every idea.
We can sort of just throw itout there and see what sticks.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
Yeah, I really like that you're saying that you feel
a part of a profession when youcan do that, and I am not part
of any other profession, so Idon't know.
But I just have in my mind thatpeople who have a shared
vocation and a shared careerpath have these conversations.
I assume that's how all theseother professions move forward.
(10:14):
You know, like I'm having someconstruction work done in the
house, I assume they talk toeach other.
I listen to them.
I think that's important.
I assume other professionalscome together and they test
ideas and they share theirsuccesses and they ask
clarifying questions and that'swhat we have to be part of as
(10:34):
teachers.
We have to be able to saythere's a lot of just in the
world of literacy.
There's a lot of stress goingon in the reading world right
now about are we teaching itright?
What are we teaching?
How are we teaching it?
How do we know we've taught it?
And there's a lot of tensionand some people are being
vilified and being told they'rebad teachers because they're not
doing X.
So how do we connect andsupport and and if there are
(10:59):
things we still need to learn?
Yes, but being protected otherpeople keeps us here.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
I was just thinking along those same lines.
I mean, I think this is what ittakes.
No-transcript what it's allabout.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
So I've argued for a long time way back in the first,
one of the first articles Iever wrote in my life around
having a shared vocabulary ofteaching and learning a shared
language, and I was given anexample of this simple phrase
shared reading and people weresaying shared reading.
And I was in a meeting and Ithink everyone had a different
definition of what that meantshared reading.
(11:57):
So we couldn't have aconversation because we all
activated in our minds ourdefinition of what it meant to
have a shared reading.
Years, years later, when closereading became a thing, nancy
and I put out in the worldhere's a definition.
You can argue with us andwhatever, but here's a
definition because if we'regoing to talk about something,
(12:18):
let's all at least agree thiswill be a close reading.
Other things may be equallyvaluable for students learning,
but it's not going to be calleda close reading.
And then we had todifferentiate between close
listening for younger kids andclose reading for as they got a
little older and then fastforward.
When I was on the board of theInternational Literacy
Association, I asked and wecreated a glossary for literacy
(12:41):
terms, because there are so manywords and phrases out there
that have different meanings todifferent people and we have a
hard time having a profession.
My sister is an oncology nurseand their vocabulary is very
specific and very precise andthey all know what they're
saying.
They also have the art of theircraft of dealing with patients
(13:02):
who are seeking cancertreatments.
There's an art to it, there's apassion that comes there,
there's a compassion and empathythat comes.
But there's also a technicallanguage and skill set that they
use.
And I like to joke my sister,and say you know, you don't go
to work one day and say you knowwhat?
I think I'll do yourchemotherapy injection in your
neck because it just seemed likea fun thing.
(13:23):
Today there's a professionalresponsibility and I know my
sister's style is different thanother nurses in the same clinic
, but they're connected and theyhave a vocabulary and I felt
like we have a lot of inventedwords.
You know the next thing?
We name it an acronym and thenwe don't all know what we're
talking about.
(13:43):
So I think having sharedvocabulary, shared language,
helps us communicate with otherprofessionals.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
Absolutely, and I really appreciate that ILA
glossary.
I have actually used excerptsfrom it in a community resource
directory that I support in thecommunity where I live, know the
lingo and perhaps you know, beable to ask informed questions
(14:12):
or even understand sometimes youknow what's being presented to
them at an open house or someother kind of school event.
You know, because we know thatnot all family members, not all
parents, have had reallypositive experiences in school
and may not know the vocabulary.
So when they're working tosupport their children, we
wanted to give them a tool sothat they could speak the
language too.
(14:33):
So thank you for that.
It really is a super helpfulresource, thank you, and we can
link to that in your show notesas well, so that anyone who's
looking to tap into thatresource would have that.
So, doug, given the challengesof today's educational climate,
what message do you wantteachers to hear?
Speaker 2 (14:50):
A couple that come to mind.
First, you're powerful and Idon't know why, but teachers
don't tend to take credit forwhat they do.
We tend to like deflect.
Oh, it wasn't me.
We're powerful, we're amazingand we help.
We contribute to young people'slearning.
I'm not saying we're the onlycause of their learning and
(15:11):
development and growth, but weare a major influence and I
think being able to say I taughtthat they learned it, it feels
amazing.
I think that's important and torecognize the impact we have.
The other thing, in trying timesand and the realities and some
people are still talking aboutyou know things like depression
and anxiety and all the stuffthat's happening Some people are
(15:33):
still talking about.
You know things like depressionand anxiety and all the stuff
that's happening, and you knowwhether it's post-COVID or, you
know, because of screens andthings, you know there's a lot
of conversation.
Regardless of that, I wantpeople to think about the kids
coming back and looking us inthe face and saying do you
remember me?
And having that experience ofyoung people, whether they were
(15:55):
your kindergarten kid or asenior in your calculus class.
When they come back and say doyou remember me?
Because we created experiencesthat were memorable and
life-changing, and it may nothave seemed that in the moment,
but they are paying attention,they are with us, they are with
us and they are learning with usand I hope we hold that in our
(16:18):
heart, that this profession isan honor, because we get to
shape lives and watch learningoccur in real time.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
Which, in my mind, is one of the most fun things a
person could possibly do is justwatching anyone learn, watching
them take on new ideas, makethem their own, ask questions
about them and put them togetherwith things they already know.
It really is an honor, so Iappreciate that.
Doug.
Yeah, I really appreciate that.
Well, thank you so much forspending some time with me today
(16:51):
, doug, and I greatly appreciateyour tremendous contributions
to the world of education.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Thank you, I really appreciate that.
Thanks for the invitation, ofcourse.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Dr Doug Fisher is known for his prolific work in
instructional design, curriculumdevelopment and professional
learning.
Additionally, he is a teacherleader at Health Sciences High
and Middle College, anaward-winning open enrollment
public school in the CityHeights neighborhood of San
Diego, california, that heco-founded in 2007.
Previously, doug was anintervention teacher and
(17:24):
elementary school educator.
Much of his work has beenpublished with San Diego State
University colleague, dr NancyFry.
Together they offer tailoredprofessional learning
opportunities around the worldWith colleagues.
Doug has published over 250books, chapters and articles
focused on school improvement,including Rigor Unveiled, the
(17:45):
Teacher Clarity Playbook, plcPlus and Welcome to Teaching.
He is the recipient of anInternational Literacy
Association William S GrayCitation of Merit and has won
the Exemplary Leader Award fromthe Conference on English
Leadership of the NationalCouncil for Teachers of English.
He was named an AdolescentLiteracy Thought Leader by the
(18:07):
International LiteracyAssociation in 2016 and elected
into the Reading Hall of Fame in2022.
Doug loves being an educatorand hopes to share that passion
with others.
Dr Douglas Fisher is Professorof Educational Leadership at San
Diego State University.
You can connect with Dr Fisherat wwwfisherandfrycom and follow
(18:32):
him on ex-formerly Twitter forupdates at dfisherandfrycom, and
follow him on X, formerlyTwitter for updates at
DFisherSDSU.
For the good of all students,classroom Caffeine aims to
energize education, research andpractice.
If this show gives you thingsto think about, help us spread
the word.
Talk to your colleagues andeducator friends about what you
(18:55):
hear.
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(19:17):
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We would love to hear from you.
Special thanks to the ClassroomCaffeine team Leah Berger,
(19:39):
abaya Valuru, stephanie Bransonand Shaba Oshfath.
As always, I raise my mug toyou, teachers.
Thanks for joining me.
Education research has a problem.
The work of brilliant educationresearchers often doesn't reach
the practice of brilliantteachers.
Classroom Caffeine is here tohelp.
In each episode, I talk with atop education researcher or an
expert educator about what theyhave learned from years of
(00:32):
research and experiences.
In this episode, dr Doug Fishertalks to us about collegial
collaboration, a shared languageof education and the joys in
teaching.
Doug is known for his prolificwork in instructional design,
curriculum development andprofessional learning.
He is a teacher and leader atHealth Sciences High and Middle
(00:56):
College in San Diego, california.
Much of his work has beenpublished with San Diego State
University colleague Dr NancyFry.
Together they offer tailoredprofessional learning
opportunities around the worldWith colleagues.
Doug has published over 250books, chapters and articles
focused on school improvement.
(01:17):
He is the recipient of anInternational Reading
Association William S GrayCitation of Merit.
He's been named an exemplaryleader by the Conference on
English Leadership of theNational Council for Teachers of
English, an adolescent literacythought leader by the
International LiteracyAssociation, and he is an
(01:38):
elected member of the ReadingHall of Fame.
Dr Douglas Fisher is aprofessor of educational
leadership at San Diego StateUniversity.
For more information about ourguest, formerly Twitter for
updates at dfishersdsu, that's,at d-f-i-s-h-e-r-s-d-s-u.
(02:23):
So pour a cup of your favoritedrink and join me.
Your host, lindsay Persaud, forClassroom Caffeine research to
energize your teaching practice.
Doug, thank you for joining me.
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Thank you.
Thanks for the invitation.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
So, from your own experiences in education, will
you share with us one or twomoments that inform your
thinking now?
Speaker 2 (02:47):
Yeah, so one that first comes to mind was more
than a decade ago, probably morethan two decades ago, and I was
teaching ninth grade English atHoover High School and I had a
student named Anthony, andAnthony taught me a lot.
He didn't like to write, buthad all these ideas and he
didn't like to share it with theclass.
(03:09):
And we end up with all thesedifferent conversations and he
started telling me stories, someof which were true and some of
which were elaborations on thetruth, and I said that's amazing
, you should write it down.
You should write it down, youhave things to say, you have a
voice, and we just really hadthis great conversation.
And then he said to me I can'twrite.
(03:30):
And I said, well, yeah, let's.
And well, it turned out he couldwrite.
He didn't own a pair of glassesand so he couldn't see enough
to write, and he'd never toldanybody that.
And I just I had this aha ofwhat we just don't know about
our students.
And now it's pretty simple apair of glasses causing him not
(03:52):
to write, causing him not towant to write, thinking he
didn't have a voice.
But what else do we not knowthat, if we knew, would make a
difference in the way weinteracted with, held
expectations for and designlearning experiences for our
students.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
It's so true, doug, I think you know we only see
parts of people's lives, and nomatter how much time we spend
with students, no matter howmuch time we have to spend with
them, we never really knowwhat's going on, and sometimes
it takes just some probingquestions to begin to get to the
bottom of what might beimpacting their learning in some
(04:31):
not so great ways.
How wonderful when we can findthose fairly simple solutions
that can support them.
Yeah, so what do you wantlisteners to know about your
work?
Speaker 2 (04:42):
I'm really passionate about helping teachers, helping
myself, helping, as a teacher,get better at my craft.
How do I continually learn?
How do I continually thinkabout this amazing profession
that we're part of?
And, yes, it's hard andstressful and some days you go
home with a broken heart andsome days you go home with a
(05:04):
filled heart.
But always trying to get betteris my quest.
People say, oh, you write a lot.
I write a lot with my colleague, nancy, because it helps us
think.
And some people say you don'twrite about the same thing.
I mean, there are professorsout there who have like an area
of expertise and that's whatthey study and that's what they
write about, who have like anarea of expertise and that's
(05:25):
what they study and that's whatthey write about.
Nancy and I, because we're at aschool, write about, think
about, figure out things thatare happening in real time in
school.
And so, yeah, we got allinterested in scaffolding for a
while and we got all interestedin giving students feedback, all
these different areas of how dowe improve this very complex,
complicated job called teaching.
(05:47):
I hope that as I learn andNancy and I learn, and we
negotiate and argue and agreeand disagree and then finally
put something out in the world.
I hope it helps.
People say I could do that.
I see how it happens, I see howit works, I see why it would be
important and I can do that too.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
Doug, you just said two things that I think are so
very important really for allteachers, and that's having that
trusted colleague that you cantalk about your ideas with, you
can reflect with them, they cantell you when you're wrong, they
can tell you when they've founda better way to do things, and
just sharing those ideas backand forth.
I think having someone that youreally trust to do that is so
(06:28):
important on this quest tobecome better and better at our
craft.
And I think the other thing yousaid that really resonates with
me is the idea of writing as apart of our reflective practice.
I feel like as a classroomteacher, that wasn't something
that I engaged with maybe notreally ever and I think that
it's an important reminder ofwhat writing is really for, that
(06:51):
it is for us to process and tothink, but also a reminder that
maybe we can work that in to.
Part of our professionallearning is writing about what
we're doing.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
And wouldn't that be a great start or closure to a
professional learning communityor professional learning event
Like here's what we're talkingabout today.
We're talking about you know,teaching, spelling or whatever.
What's your experience with it,what's your thinking about and
like committing to it in writing, like we say to our students,
like we say we want you to do aquick write and kind of put your
(07:25):
thinking on paper.
I'll also comment about whatyou said about having a
colleague.
Nancy would say Doug has anidea every day, every day, I
wake up with an idea.
They're not all good, that'sthe thing.
And yes, I might have had anidea, but they're not all good.
And when you trust someone andyou know each other well, we
(07:46):
teach together, we writetogether and I think being able
to say you know that could work,let's do it, or you know that's
not really a good idea because,but having that colleague down
the hall or online or whereveryou have that colleague, where
you have some time in your worklife to have those conversations
(08:06):
, so that give and take that Ithink one of the reasons I love
my job so much is I'm connectedwith a whole bunch of
professionals who I respect andvalue, who helped me think, who
pushed me, who allowed me topush them.
Nancy is my major collaborator,but I work at a high school and
they are amazing people here whoreally push and do I mean like
(08:29):
every day, show up to be thebest they can be, and I think
when we're connected that way,it's super protective of our
well-being, of our professionalgenerosity and this is our sense
of when we go home that we madea difference and that together
we accomplished great thingsmade a difference and that
(08:50):
together we accomplished greatthings.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
That's so important, and I appreciate you also
highlighting that this is a partof, I think, it's taking care
of ourselves professionally.
But also there is thisemotional and sort of social
well-being aspect of it.
Right, if you feel as thoughyou're teaching in a vacuum, I
think the job is justexceedingly difficult.
But whenever you have peoplearound you who are supportive
and who will say, oh, thatsounds like a great idea, let's
(09:12):
think about that some more.
Or I'm not so sure about thatone I think that it really does
help us to feel more human inthe profession and to kind of
bring our whole selves to whatwe do.
And I think the other thing thatI hear in what you shared is
that I can relate to is havingan easy relationship with
someone, somebody you can youknow you can send them a text
(09:33):
and it may not be 100 percentaccurate, but they know what
you're talking about.
You know those kinds of things,because I think that in in the
the pace of life right now, weneed those kinds of easy
relationships where we don'thave to formalize every idea.
We can sort of just throw itout there and see what sticks.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
Yeah, I really like that you're saying that you feel
a part of a profession when youcan do that, and I am not part
of any other profession, so Idon't know.
But I just have in my mind thatpeople who have a shared
vocation and a shared careerpath have these conversations.
I assume that's how all theseother professions move forward.
(10:14):
You know, like I'm having someconstruction work done in the
house, I assume they talk toeach other.
I listen to them.
I think that's important.
I assume other professionalscome together and they test
ideas and they share theirsuccesses and they ask
clarifying questions and that'swhat we have to be part of as
(10:34):
teachers.
We have to be able to saythere's a lot of just in the
world of literacy.
There's a lot of stress goingon in the reading world right
now about are we teaching itright?
What are we teaching?
How are we teaching it?
How do we know we've taught it?
And there's a lot of tensionand some people are being
vilified and being told they'rebad teachers because they're not
doing X.
So how do we connect andsupport and and if there are
(10:59):
things we still need to learn?
Yes, but being protected otherpeople keeps us here.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
I was just thinking along those same lines.
I mean, I think this is what ittakes.
No-transcript what it's allabout.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
So I've argued for a long time way back in the first,
one of the first articles Iever wrote in my life around
having a shared vocabulary ofteaching and learning a shared
language, and I was given anexample of this simple phrase
shared reading and people weresaying shared reading.
And I was in a meeting and Ithink everyone had a different
definition of what that meantshared reading.
(11:57):
So we couldn't have aconversation because we all
activated in our minds ourdefinition of what it meant to
have a shared reading.
Years, years later, when closereading became a thing, nancy
and I put out in the worldhere's a definition.
You can argue with us andwhatever, but here's a
definition because if we'regoing to talk about something,
(12:18):
let's all at least agree thiswill be a close reading.
Other things may be equallyvaluable for students learning,
but it's not going to be calleda close reading.
And then we had todifferentiate between close
listening for younger kids andclose reading for as they got a
little older and then fastforward.
When I was on the board of theInternational Literacy
Association, I asked and wecreated a glossary for literacy
(12:41):
terms, because there are so manywords and phrases out there
that have different meanings todifferent people and we have a
hard time having a profession.
My sister is an oncology nurseand their vocabulary is very
specific and very precise andthey all know what they're
saying.
They also have the art of theircraft of dealing with patients
(13:02):
who are seeking cancertreatments.
There's an art to it, there's apassion that comes there,
there's a compassion and empathythat comes.
But there's also a technicallanguage and skill set that they
use.
And I like to joke my sister,and say you know, you don't go
to work one day and say you knowwhat?
I think I'll do yourchemotherapy injection in your
neck because it just seemed likea fun thing.
(13:23):
Today there's a professionalresponsibility and I know my
sister's style is different thanother nurses in the same clinic
, but they're connected and theyhave a vocabulary and I felt
like we have a lot of inventedwords.
You know the next thing?
We name it an acronym and thenwe don't all know what we're
talking about.
(13:43):
So I think having sharedvocabulary, shared language,
helps us communicate with otherprofessionals.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
Absolutely, and I really appreciate that ILA
glossary.
I have actually used excerptsfrom it in a community resource
directory that I support in thecommunity where I live, know the
lingo and perhaps you know, beable to ask informed questions
(14:12):
or even understand sometimes youknow what's being presented to
them at an open house or someother kind of school event.
You know, because we know thatnot all family members, not all
parents, have had reallypositive experiences in school
and may not know the vocabulary.
So when they're working tosupport their children, we
wanted to give them a tool sothat they could speak the
language too.
(14:33):
So thank you for that.
It really is a super helpfulresource, thank you, and we can
link to that in your show notesas well, so that anyone who's
looking to tap into thatresource would have that.
So, doug, given the challengesof today's educational climate,
what message do you wantteachers to hear?
Speaker 2 (14:50):
A couple that come to mind.
First, you're powerful and Idon't know why, but teachers
don't tend to take credit forwhat they do.
We tend to like deflect.
Oh, it wasn't me.
We're powerful, we're amazingand we help.
We contribute to young people'slearning.
I'm not saying we're the onlycause of their learning and
(15:11):
development and growth, but weare a major influence and I
think being able to say I taughtthat they learned it, it feels
amazing.
I think that's important and torecognize the impact we have.
The other thing, in trying timesand and the realities and some
people are still talking aboutyou know things like depression
and anxiety and all the stuffthat's happening Some people are
(15:33):
still talking about.
You know things like depressionand anxiety and all the stuff
that's happening, and you knowwhether it's post-COVID or, you
know, because of screens andthings, you know there's a lot
of conversation.
Regardless of that, I wantpeople to think about the kids
coming back and looking us inthe face and saying do you
remember me?
And having that experience ofyoung people, whether they were
(15:55):
your kindergarten kid or asenior in your calculus class.
When they come back and say doyou remember me?
Because we created experiencesthat were memorable and
life-changing, and it may nothave seemed that in the moment,
but they are paying attention,they are with us, they are with
us and they are learning with usand I hope we hold that in our
(16:18):
heart, that this profession isan honor, because we get to
shape lives and watch learningoccur in real time.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
Which, in my mind, is one of the most fun things a
person could possibly do is justwatching anyone learn, watching
them take on new ideas, makethem their own, ask questions
about them and put them togetherwith things they already know.
It really is an honor, so Iappreciate that.
Doug.
Yeah, I really appreciate that.
Well, thank you so much forspending some time with me today
(16:51):
, doug, and I greatly appreciateyour tremendous contributions
to the world of education.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Thank you, I really appreciate that.
Thanks for the invitation, ofcourse.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Dr Doug Fisher is known for his prolific work in
instructional design, curriculumdevelopment and professional
learning.
Additionally, he is a teacherleader at Health Sciences High
and Middle College, anaward-winning open enrollment
public school in the CityHeights neighborhood of San
Diego, california, that heco-founded in 2007.
Previously, doug was anintervention teacher and
(17:24):
elementary school educator.
Much of his work has beenpublished with San Diego State
University colleague, dr NancyFry.
Together they offer tailoredprofessional learning
opportunities around the worldWith colleagues.
Doug has published over 250books, chapters and articles
focused on school improvement,including Rigor Unveiled, the
(17:45):
Teacher Clarity Playbook, plcPlus and Welcome to Teaching.
He is the recipient of anInternational Literacy
Association William S GrayCitation of Merit and has won
the Exemplary Leader Award fromthe Conference on English
Leadership of the NationalCouncil for Teachers of English.
He was named an AdolescentLiteracy Thought Leader by the
(18:07):
International LiteracyAssociation in 2016 and elected
into the Reading Hall of Fame in2022.
Doug loves being an educatorand hopes to share that passion
with others.
Dr Douglas Fisher is Professorof Educational Leadership at San
Diego State University.
You can connect with Dr Fisherat wwwfisherandfrycom and follow
(18:32):
him on ex-formerly Twitter forupdates at dfisherandfrycom, and
follow him on X, formerlyTwitter for updates at
DFisherSDSU.
For the good of all students,classroom Caffeine aims to
energize education, research andpractice.
If this show gives you thingsto think about, help us spread
the word.
Talk to your colleagues andeducator friends about what you
(18:55):
hear.
You can support the show bysubscribing, liking and
reviewing this podcast throughyour podcast provider.
Visit classroomcaffeinecom,where you can subscribe to
receive our short monthlynewsletter, the Espresso Shot.
On our website, you can alsolearn more about each guest,
find transcripts for ourepisodes, explore topics using
(19:17):
our drop-down menu of tags,request an episode, topic or
potential guest, support ourresearch through our listener
survey or learn more about theresearch we're doing on our
publications page.
Connect with us on social mediathrough Instagram, facebook and
Twitter.
We would love to hear from you.
Special thanks to the ClassroomCaffeine team Leah Berger,
(19:39):
abaya Valuru, stephanie Bransonand Shaba Oshfath.
As always, I raise my mug toyou, teachers.
Thanks for joining me.
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